Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5795

1 Tuesday, 17th September 1996.

2 (10.00 a.m.)


4 (pages 5795 to 5808: Hearing in closed session)

























Page 5809

1 (Open Session)

2 (10.43 a.m.)

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, who will be responsible for bringing

4 in the witness?

5 MR. KAY: Your Honour, the witness is just outside in the corridor

6 and if the usher could bring in witness U, please, who is the

7 first Defence witness?


9 ^^ Witness U, called.

10 MR. KAY: This is a witness with facial distortion and open session

11 and the pseudonym of U.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I appreciate the listing. Perhaps we need to

13 talk with you about this in closed session. We are having some

14 difficulty following, and I just want to make sure that

15 I understand who will be the next witness and what type of

16 protective measures. But thank you for telling me. Let us see

17 if we can get some advance notice so that the Judges will at

18 know at least for the day what to expect.

19 MR. KAY: Yes.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is

21 being handed to you.

22 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

24 (The witness was sworn)

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

26 Examined by MR. KAY

27 MR. KAY: Your Honour, as witness U is in open session as well, the

28 blinds on this side of the Court should now be raised.

Page 5810

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may proceed.

2 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

3 Q. Witness, you will be known in Court as witness U as a pseudonym

4 for your name. Can you tell the Court that you have lived in

5 Kozarac before the conflict?

6 A. Yes, I lived there.

7 Q. Before the conflict, how long had you lived in Kozarac for?

8 A. Well, I lived there for 42 years.

9 Q. Did you have a job in Kozarac?

10 A. [redacted]

11 [redacted].

12 Q. [redacted]

13 A. [redacted]

14 Q. [redacted]

15 A. [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 Q. If we could have a look at that on a map so we can put it in our

18 mind? D13, please, if that could be put before the witness?

19 I have additional copies of this for your Honours, and it might

20 be useful, as it is planned to be used by the Defence on many

21 occasions, if rather than seeing it on the monitor you have your

22 own copy of D13. (Handed).

23 There is a good suggestion here that if one goes on

24 the overhead projector as well.

25 Witness, if you could just look at that plan of the

26 Kozarac area that I have put before you, do you see [redacted] on

27 the plan?

28 A. Yes, I do.

Page 5811

1 Q. If you just point to that plan on the overhead projector to your

2 right and mark there [redacted]

3 A. [The witness indicated on the plan].

4 Q. Did you live actually at that part of [redacted] or nearby?

5 A. Yes, in a part of [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 Q. Thank you. Were you a married man in Kozarac before the

8 conflict?

9 A. Yes. Yes, yes, I was.

10 Q. What nationality was your wife?

11 A. [redacted]

12 Q. Did you have children?

13 A. Yes, I have a son.

14 Q. Did he live with you or live away from home?

15 A. With me, with me, he lived and worked.

16 Q. Did you know the Tadic family in Kozarac?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Did you know Dusko Tadic?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. For how many years had you known Dusko Tadic?

21 A. Well, I would say 30 years at least.

22 Q. What other members of his family did you know?

23 A. Well, I know his whole family, his father, his mother,

24 brothers. I know all of them.

25 Q. [redacted]

26 [redacted]

27 A. [redacted]

28 [redacted]

Page 5812

1 Q. How often before the conflict did you see Dusko Tadic?

2 A. Why, I used to see him almost every day, because whenever I went

3 out into the field I would pass by his house, and then when he

4 opened his coffee bar I frequented it. I saw him every day.

5 Q. What sort of cafe bar did he open? What sort of people went

6 there?

7 A. Well, it was frequented by all sorts of people, by people of all

8 origins, Croats and Muslims and Serbs. They all frequented his

9 coffee bar.

10 Q. Did it have any sort of reputation as being a Serb meeting

11 place, people from Serb background, whether they used that

12 instead of other coffee bars?

13 A. As far as I know, I never heard anything along those lines.

14 Q. Were you politically involved in any way before the conflict in

15 1992?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you a member of any of the political parties?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you do your JNA service?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What years did you serve in the JNA?

22 A. '74, to '75.

23 Q. In what capacity?

24 A. I was in engineering service.

25 Q. The part of Kozarac where you lived [redacted], what was the

26 makeup of the families in your area in terms of ethnic

27 background?

28 A. There were Serbs, Croats and two or three Muslim households.

Page 5813

1 Q. Do you recollect the time when Kozarac was shelled in 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you remember what date that was?

4 A. The 24th May, around 5 past 2 or 10 past 2 in the afternoon.

5 Q. Whereabouts were you at that time when that shelling happened?

6 A. That day I was at home [redacted].

7 Q. In your home with you at that time was who?

8 A. There were my wife, my brother and my sister-in-law.

9 Q. Where was your son at this time?

10 A. My son was in Prijedor. He had gone there eight days before

11 that.

12 Q. When this shelling happened, did you know it was going to

13 happen? Did you have any warning that anything like that would

14 take place?

15 A. No, I did not, and I was confident that there would be no

16 shelling.

17 Q. Were you aware of an ultimatum that had been given by the

18 authorities in Prijedor to the police in Kozarac concerning the

19 handing up of weapons to the civil authorities?

20 A. Yes, I did. I heard about it.

21 Q. Did you have any involvement in matters relating to that

22 ultimatum?

23 A. No, no, I did not.

24 Q. Did you know what the deadline was for the ultimatum?

25 A. I think it was Sunday, Sunday noon, I think that was the

26 deadline.

27 Q. When the shelling of Kozarac took place, how did you react?

28 What did you do?


Page 5814

1 A. Well, I went up to shelter, to a stream called Hokovac, there

2 were some summer cottages, and so I went there with my wife and

3 other people.

4 Q. If we look at the map that is in front of you which shows

5 Kozarac [redacted], can you tell us roughly in which district

6 it was that you went to where these summer cottages were?

7 A. Here were these cottages, next to the bridge, to the right, some

8 150 metres from the bridge to the right, roughly here.

9 Q. Thank you. Did other people also go to that area where you

10 went?

11 A. Yes, yes. They came from Kozarac, civilians, women and

12 children, they came up there to that shelter.

13 Q. About how many people, are you able to say if you can, came out

14 of Kozarac to that area where you were and took shelter?

15 A. There must have been not less than 2,000 to 3,000 inhabitants.

16 Q. How soon after the shelling started was it that you left your

17 home?

18 A. May 27th it was when I left [redacted] in the

19 morning at 7 o'clock.

20 Q. If I can take you back to the start of the shelling on 24th May

21 and you told us about going to the area where the summer

22 cottages were, was it a few hours before you moved out of your

23 home or did you move out of your home straightaway?

24 A. Well, it could have been about one or two hours later that

25 I went up there to that shelter, rather, to those summer

26 cottages.[redacted]

27 Q. Where you took shelter, were there other families with you?

28 A. Yes, yes, there were Muslims and Serbs and Croats.

Page 5815

1 Q. Were you able to see what was happening down in Kozarac from

2 this place where you were taking shelter?

3 A. No, no, it was -- one could not see.

4 Q. Were you able to tell in any way where the shelling was coming

5 from?

6 A. Well, it came from Prijedor, I think, according to what other

7 people said and, judging by shells, they must have been fired

8 from the direction of Prijedor.

9 Q. Having taken shelter in this area of the weekend cottages, did

10 you return to your home at all, or did you just stay there in

11 the shelter?

12 A. We stayed in the shelter. I did not go back home.

13 Q. Can you recollect how long the shelling continued for?

14 A. Well, it was Sunday, then Monday and Tuesday, three days. It

15 went on for three days.

16 Q. So would that be until 26th May?

17 A. Yes, until the 26th May, until the 27th May, I think it was

18 around 4 o'clock in the morning of 27th May that the shelling

19 stopped.

20 Q. Can you tell us at all about the kind of shelling, the amount of

21 bombardment, that was taking place? How frequent were the guns

22 firing?

23 A. What type they were, I do not know, but it would go on for about

24 one hour or two, and then there would be a lull again of about

25 one hour or two and then would start again, but what type, what

26 calibres, I do not know that.

27 Q. At what stage did you leave that shelter where you had taken

28 refuge?

Page 5816

1 A. I left it on 27th May '92 around 7 o'clock in the morning.

2 Q. Did others leave the area where you were in at that time as

3 well?

4 A. Yes, yes, they did.

5 Q. Do you know if other people had left the area before you did on

6 27th May at 7 o'clock in the morning, had others moved out from

7 the area where you were taking refuge?

8 A. Yes, some left on 26th May towards half past 7, 8 o'clock in the

9 evening and they went in the -- towards Kozarac.

10 Q. Was there any information or message passed that let people know

11 about moving out of the region and moving down into Kozarac?

12 A. Yes, policemen, Muslims who came up there on 26th May, they came

13 up there, they told us to do withdraw towards Kozarac and some

14 people did. We did not.

15 Q. The area that you had taken shelter in near [redacted] and

16 [redacted] itself, was that affected by any shelling?

17 A. Three shells fell there and by accident, it was not shelled.

18 Q. So leaving the area where you had taken refuge on 27th May,

19 about how many other people left at the same time?

20 A. We started from [redacted], perhaps around 100, and as we went

21 towards Kozarac there must have been 200 or 300 people amassed

22 because as we were moving so we were being joined by women and

23 children.

24 Q. Where were those other people joining you from, where had they

25 been taking refuge?

26 A. I do not know.

27 Q. This movement of people from [redacted], did it form a column

28 which people added to?

Page 5817

1 A. Yes, yes, a column.

2 Q. Whereabouts, as this column approached Kozarac, were you in the

3 column? Were you at the front, the back or in the middle?

4 A. Well, somewhere towards the front of the column.

5 Q. Were people taking any possessions with them?

6 A. Well, some bags perhaps, some clothes, things like that.

7 Q. Was there any transport in the column or were people just

8 walking?

9 A. Walking, on foot. There were no vehicles.

10 Q. Again, were there different nationalities in this column?

11 A. Yes, yes, there were.

12 Q. What nationalities were they?

13 A. There were Muslims, Croats and there were Serbs.

14 Q. What Serb people did you know in the column?

15 A. Well, I knew them. There was my neighbour, [redacted], her

16 mother, [redacted] and others. [redacted]

17 [redacted].

18 Q. When did you first see any military personnel in the Kozarac

19 area as you moved in this column from [redacted]?

20 A. Well, I saw at the entrance to Kozarac by the Mutnik Mosque

21 there were soldiers there, about two kilometres from [redacted].

22 Q. Can you recollect how many there were there?

23 A. I did not see very many of them, perhaps 20 or 30. They were

24 standing on the pavement.

25 Q. What type of soldiers were they? Were they regular army or

26 irregular troops?

27 A. That was the Yugoslav Army. I did not see any paramilitary

28 units.

Page 5818

1 Q. Can you recollect how those troops were dressed?

2 A. There were all sorts of uniforms. Some were in camouflage

3 uniforms. Others were in those old SMB uniforms.

4 Q. When you saw those soldiers near Mutnik, how did they, as you

5 were able to see it, treat the people coming down in the column?

6 A. They behaved decently. They did not harass us, nobody beat us,

7 nobody touched us.

8 Q. Having arrived at Mutnik Mosque, whereabouts did your column go

9 in Kozarac? What route did it take?

10 A. We went down the Marsala Tita Street, the High Street, towards

11 the school.

12 Q. Which school is that in Kozarac?

13 A. Elementary school, Rade Kondic.

14 Q. Whereabouts is that in relation to the layout of Kozarac, the

15 school?

16 A. Well, that is at the bottom, at the end of the street, as you

17 come out of Kozarac, at the very end, at the intersection for

18 the old route to Prijedor and Kamicani, the old road to Banja

19 Luka, at the crossroads itself.

20 Q. I would like you to look at a photograph and this I will offer

21 to the Court as D55, your Honour.

22 Witness, that is a photograph there, or a series of

23 photographs, that have been put together and do you recognise

24 what that photograph is showing?

25 A. Yes, I can see. It is the Marsala Tita Street. You can see the

26 school. You can see the fountain. You can see the house of

27 Bosko Dragicevic and his shop.

28 MR. KAY: Your Honour, this has been served on the Prosecution in

Page 5819

1 advance. It is something that is unsuitable to put on the

2 monitor because of its size. There is a copy for each of your

3 Honours.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

5 MR. KEEGAN: No objection, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence Exhibit 55 will be admitted. Mr. Kay,

7 I do not have my microphone on. I want to ask you about a

8 reference to a neighbour. Is there a redaction needed?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, microphone, please.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not have my microphone on since the

11 Defence is dealing with this procedure. I am just enquiring.

12 MR. KAY: I do not think there is in relation to that name.

13 Mr. Wladimiroff will confirm that.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have made notes and afterwards I think I will

15 pass it because otherwise we will break each time again.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have a half hour, you know, to handle that.

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, I know. So far, nothing has happened that we

18 are really worried.


20 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence Exhibit 55 is admitted.

22 MR. KAY [To the witness]: I think you have just told us that that

23 is the photograph of the part of Kozarac where the school is,

24 the Rade Kondic school, is that right?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And the fountain in the middle and you refer to someone's shop

27 and house?

28 A. Yes.

Page 5820

1 Q. You told us that your column came down into this part of

2 Kozarac?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where exactly did it go, having arrived down here?

5 A. We went towards the Banja Luka/Prijedor road or the intersection

6 on that road.

7 Q. Is that the new highway, as it is called?

8 A. Yes, Prijedor/Banja Luka.

9 Q. At this stage are you able to tell us how long this column of

10 people in which you were placed stretched? How long it was or

11 the number of people in that column?

12 A. According to my assessment, between 2 and a half and 3,000 men,

13 women and children moving along the road.

14 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can you just tell us in which direction in this

15 photograph is the Banja Luka/Prijedor road?

16 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I certainly will. If we look at the

17 photograph, witness, and we look at the left-hand side where you

18 refer to someone's shop and house ----

19 A. [Answer not translated].

20 Q. Yes, if we pass down that road, would that ----

21 A. My neighbour, Bosko Dragicevic.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We did not get the translation. I think the

23 concern is were they moving from left to right, in other words,

24 does the photo show the beginning and then going down, right to

25 left?

26 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I will take it in stages and it is my mistake.

27 If we look at this photograph, witness, on the

28 right-hand side of the photograph we see behind some trees a

Page 5821

1 building, the right-hand side?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that the school, Rade Kondic school, in Kozarac?

4 A. No, the school is there. You can just see the monument in front

5 of the school next to the fountain.

6 Q. Yes. Perhaps if you could take us on this photograph then from

7 the right-hand side -- no, the right-hand side, perhaps move

8 your finger to the right-hand side of the photograph, yes, right

9 to the end of the photograph, please. Yes. That is the left,

10 to the other end of the photograph.

11 A. Here.

12 Q. Yes, thank you. If you look at the right-hand side of the

13 photograph and just tell us along this photograph, as we look at

14 it in sections, what parts of Kozarac are shown on the

15 photograph? Starting at the right-hand side, yes, there. What

16 building is behind those trees?

17 A. You can see some buildings. I think that is the old hospital

18 here.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Then up here, I think is the cake shop, and then Toma Dobric's

21 house, then the fountain, then the monument in front of the

22 school, of Rade Kondic school, and then the house of Bosko

23 Dragicevic and his shop can be seen on the ground floor.

24 Q. If we look at this photograph, which side of the photograph,

25 right or left, would it be that Marsala Tita Street comes down

26 into the triangle?

27 A. Here on the left.

28 Q. If we look at that, the middle of the photograph, looking across

Page 5822

1 the triangle, we see a road, can you see that?

2 A. That is the one here, to the right.

3 Q. Yes.

4 JUDGE VOHRAH: Is it not possible at all to have it on the Elmo? We

5 are having difficulty.

6 MR. KAY: We will try that. I understand, your Honour. Perhaps if

7 we could switch the Elmo on and the witness take a position

8 closer to the Elmo as, unfortunately, it is difficult to do.

9 Just leave the photograph there for the moment. Put

10 the pointer at the edge of the photograph on the right, there.

11 Is it right that there is a road that leads down into this area

12 of Kozarac from the right there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which street is that that comes down from the right?

15 A. It is a bit unclear to me. I think it is the road leading to

16 Kalate, to the bridge.

17 MR. KAY: I think I will abandon this exercise, your Honour!

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We can come back to it, perhaps, after the

19 recess.

20 MR. KAY: I thought the witness had familiarised himself with the

21 photographs, but it does not matter. There we are.

22 If you switch the monitor off and let us go back to

23 the map, D13?

24 You have the map there in front of you, witness. We

25 have looked at [redacted]. You have the map in front of you and

26 we have looked at [redacted]. Can you see Mutnik on the map?

27 A. Yes, I can see it.

28 Q. If you can keep your finger on the map so it keeps still? Can

Page 5823

1 you just indicate by using that pointer the route that you took

2 from [redacted] down into the centre of Kozarac?

3 A. I went from [redacted] along this way, along Marsala Tita Road.

4 Q. Just stop there for a moment. Where you have kept your pointer

5 there, we can see a triangle on the map, is that right?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Those photographs that I just showed you, were they of that

8 place on the map, the triangle?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Yes. Just so that we have this in mind, about what time did you

11 arrive at this part of Kozarac, where the triangle is?

12 A. Somewhere around 8.15 or 8.30 in the morning.

13 Q. You told us about troops. You can take your pointer off the

14 triangle for the moment and I will deal with some other

15 matters. You told us about some troops that you had seen near

16 Mutnik. Did you see any other troops or military as you went

17 down Marsala Tita Street?

18 A. No, I did not.

19 Q. When you arrived at the triangle, did you see any military

20 presence there?

21 A. Yes, there was the army.

22 Q. What sort of military was there there? What sort of equipment

23 and men?

24 A. I saw people in uniform, camouflage uniform and in Yugoslav SMB

25 uniforms. They had automatic rifles.

26 Q. Did you see stay for any time down there at the triangle?

27 A. Yes, we stayed there for about one and a half or two hours

28 waiting for other people to join the column.

Page 5824

1 Q. At this stage are you able to tell us about how many people were

2 in this part of Kozarac in the triangle?

3 A. There were about 2 and a half to 3,000 people, men, women,

4 children, old people.

5 Q. How were you being controlled?

6 A. They did not control us. We were just waiting there so that we

7 could all gather together, that people from other villages could

8 come.

9 Q. Was anyone giving orders to you?

10 A. Yes, there was an officer whom I do not know and we listened to

11 what he said.

12 Q. Had you recognised anyone at all within the military during your

13 progress down from [redacted] down to the triangle in Kozarac?

14 A. Yes, I did. I recognised two boys.

15 Q. Who did you recognise?

16 A. I recognised Goran Borovnica and Zoran Sumar from Donji Orlovci,

17 a neighbour of my wife's.

18 Q. In your movement through Kozarac, had you seen Dusko Tadic?

19 A. No, no, I did not see him.

20 Q. As you had passed through Kozarac, were you able to see what

21 damage had been done to the town caused by the shelling?

22 A. Yes, I was in a position to see it.

23 Q. Can you remember what that was, what the town looked like then?

24 A. It was not badly damaged. A couple of houses were just damaged.

25 Q. If we see photographs of Kozarac today, we see virtually every

26 house with holes for windows, no roof and enormous damage to the

27 buildings. Were the buildings like that then or did that happen

28 later?

Page 5825

1 A. That happened later.

2 Q. At the triangle, you told us that there were this large number

3 of people. Did there come a time when you moved from there and

4 the convoy started off to go elsewhere?

5 A. No, the column stayed there for about one and a half to two

6 hours and then we moved towards the crossroads, Banja

7 Luka/Prijedor.

8 Q. Right. If we return then back to our map, and again if the

9 overhead projector could be switched on? Put your pointer back

10 on the triangle and show us then the route that you took to the

11 intersection of the Banja Luka/Prijedor highway.

12 A. [The witness indicated on the model].

13 Q. Thank you. Does that route take you past the saw mill?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Then having got to the intersection, where did you go?

16 A. We went in the direction of Prijedor.

17 Q. If you can just move your pointer along that so we can see on

18 the map which particular road that is? Yes, if you just move it

19 along the Prijedor highway? Thank you.

20 A. [The witness indicated on the model].

21 Q. Thank you very much. Having then moved along the Prijedor

22 highway, did there come a time when the column stopped?

23 A. Yes, we were stopped at Susici.

24 Q. What happened at Susici when the column stopped?

25 A. We were attacked from the trees. Muslims shot at the column of

26 civilians from the woods.

27 Q. Which part of Susici did the column stop at?

28 A. Near the bus stop, just in front of the bridge, about 50 metres

Page 5826

1 away from the bridge.

2 Q. Did the column eventually move from there?

3 A. Yes, when this attack waned, we went on to towards Ziko's inn in

4 Kozarusa.

5 Q. About what time did you reach Ziko's inn in Kozarusa?

6 A. About 1 o'clock, 1.30. I cannot remember exactly.

7 Q. What happened there at Ziko's?

8 A. There were buses waiting for transport of civilians.

9 Q. What happened to you?

10 A. Nothing. I got on the bus. I did not know where I was going.

11 Q. Did you have to wait for any period of time at Ziko's before you

12 were put on the bus?

13 A. Yes, we waited maybe half an hour.

14 Q. So about what time was it that your bus left Ziko's?

15 A. I think it must have been about 2.30.

16 Q. Again, had more people joined that column, do you know, since it

17 had left the triangle in Kozarac and moved along the highway

18 towards Prijedor?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. You had moved in this column of people starting at [redacted]

21 down to this place, Ziko's tavern. Were the people within that

22 column frightened?

23 A. Yes, they were frightened.

24 Q. Did people know what was going to happen to them?

25 A. I think they did not know what was going to happen. I did not

26 know.

27 Q. When you were put on the bus, did you know where you were going

28 to be taken to?

Page 5827

1 A. No.

2 Q. Where did that bus take you? Where did you end up?

3 A. Trnopolje, the collection point at Trnopolje.

4 Q. Your wife and other members of your family had been with you in

5 your house [redacted] when the shelling started. Had you

6 remained together as a group?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you all go as a group to Trnopolje or were you split up and

9 others taken to other places?

10 A. We all went Trnopolje, and then from Trnopolje we went to

11 Prijedor to stay with family.

12 Q. How long were you at Trnopolje camp for?

13 A. Maybe two or three hours I stayed there -- three hours.

14 Q. You said that you then stayed elsewhere, having been in

15 Trnopolje for that period of time. Whereabouts did you go and

16 stay?

17 A. I went to Donji Orlovci [redacted].

18 Q. At any stage during your movement and progress from [redacted] to

19 this time when you are in Trnopolje, did you see Dusko Tadic?

20 A. No, no, I did not see him.

21 Q. You mentioned seeing two young men in Kozarac whom you

22 recognised, Zoran Sumar and Goran Borovnica. Can you recollect

23 whereabouts in Kozarac you had seen either of them? First of

24 all, Sumar, can you recollect where you saw him?

25 A. I first saw Goran near the old school in Kozarac, that is, just

26 below the Mutnik Mosque and then I saw Zoran about 50 metres

27 later on the left-hand side at an intersection of roads.

28 Q. Which intersection of roads is that in Kozarac?

Page 5828

1 A. It is the road leading to Kula.

2 Q. If we can just have a look at Prosecution Exhibit which is

3 Exhibit 196? It may show up better on this plan that I am going

4 to put in front of you which is not a map in the same form that

5 we have been looking at, witness, but is a plan that someone has

6 drawn of Kozarac. (Handed). If we can have one put on the

7 monitor as well so that it can be shown? You can see there the

8 plan of Kozarac and can you see on the top right corner where

9 the motel is marked? If you just put your pointer where that

10 is.[redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 A. [redacted]

13 Q. Can you see where the mosque is, that is Mutnik Mosque, down

14 below?

15 A. I think it must be this.

16 Q. When you indicated seeing Goran Borovnica near the school and

17 near that area, can you indicate where that would be on this

18 plan?

19 A. [The witness indicated on the plan] Here somewhere, about here.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will continue until quarter to 12, Mr. Kay.

22 MR. KAY: I am obliged, your Honour.

23 (To the witness): When you left Trnopolje and went to

24 live in Donji Orlovci, did you move out of the area at all of

25 Donji Orlovci? Were you able to travel around?

26 A. Yes, I went to Prijedor. I did move around.

27 Q. After the conflict, can you remember the first time you met

28 Dusko Tadic?

Page 5829

1 A. Before the conflict or after the conflict broke out? I did not

2 understand the question.

3 Q. After the conflict, can you remember the first time you met

4 Dusko Tadic?

5 A. Maybe about one and a half or two months. I cannot exactly

6 remember the date. It was about one and a half or two months

7 later.

8 Q. Whereabouts was that?

9 A. We met in Prijedor in front of the Rudnik restaurant.

10 Q. Was that a meeting by accident or an arranged meeting?

11 A. No, by accident we met. It was a coincidence.

12 Q. Did you talk to him?

13 A. Yes, we had a drink and we talked about Kozarac and ----

14 Q. Did you talk with him about the future of Kozarac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you make any plans with him about the future for Kozarac?

17 A. Yes, we spoke about returning to Kozarac, about living there and

18 building it up.

19 Q. Had anyone started to rebuild Kozarac, as far as you know, at

20 this time?

21 A. No.

22 Q. The discussion you had with him, was it a discussion as to what

23 you were going to do, how you were going to rebuild Kozarac, or

24 was it just dreams of rebuilding Kozarac?

25 A. We spoke about Kozarac and two or three days later we went to

26 the President of the Prijedor opstina to come to an agreement on

27 the return to Kozarac and on clearing it up.

28 Q. Did you go back to Kozarac yourself?

Page 5830

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When was your first return?

3 A. I do not know. I think in the elementary school of Kozarac we

4 had a meeting with the President of the opstina and all the

5 citizens who had stayed behind in Kozarac. Whether it was the

6 end of August or the beginning of September, I cannot remember

7 exactly.

8 Q. Was Dusko Tadic involved in that meeting?

9 A. Yes, he was there.

10 Q. What was his role?

11 A. He was elected at the meeting as Secretary of the local

12 community of Kozarac.

13 Q. Why was he elected as Secretary of the Local Commune?

14 A. Because he was the greatest supporter of returning to Kozarac,

15 of bringing it back to life, of us continuing life there.

16 Q. Who was the President of the Local Commune?

17 A. I am afraid I cannot -- I do not know.

18 Q. Had Dusko Tadic been involved in SDS politics, as far as you

19 were aware?

20 A. I do not know. I am not aware of it.

21 Q. Was his appointment as Secretary of the Local Commune in Kozarac

22 in any way to do because of political views or his political

23 knowledge or his political associations?

24 A. No, I think it was the people of Kozarac, the inhabitants of

25 Kozarac, who elected him because he was the man who most

26 championed our return to Kozarac.

27 Q. Was he made Secretary of the Local Commune because he had been

28 involved in fighting in Kozarac and because he had been involved

Page 5831

1 in activities involving the camps in opstina Prijedor? Was that

2 anything to do with his election?

3 A. As far as I know, he was the greatest supporter of returning to

4 Kozarac and living there and that is why the people elected

5 him. I know nothing about these other things.

6 Q. Did you eventually return to Kozarac yourself to live?

7 A. Yes, I and my wife, we returned.

8 Q. When was that?

9 A. About September we cleaned up our houses. Towards the end of

10 September already we started living there, end of September,

11 beginning of October.

12 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic in Kozarac during this time, from the

13 time of that meeting you referred to to the time afterwards?

14 A. Yes, I would see him in Kozarac, in the Local Commune premises.

15 We were cleaning up our homes and I would see him.

16 Q. How did he spend his time?

17 A. Mostly he was in the school working in the Local Commune and

18 assisting the people with their work. He would take people to

19 their houses and accommodate them there.

20 Q. There has been an assertion in evidence in this Court that later

21 on in the year, in November/December 1992, he was Commander of

22 Trnopolje camp. Could you see that? Were you aware of that?

23 A. No. No, I neither knew about it nor did I hear anything like

24 that.

25 Q. I mean, did any of his business, as you could see it, cause his

26 involvement with Trnopolje camp?

27 A. As far as I know, it did not, as far as I know.

28 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that would be an appropriate moment. I am

Page 5832

1 grateful for the Court allowing me to continue.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

3 (11.43 a.m.)


























Page 5833

1 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

2 (12.08 p.m.)

3 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I have concluded my questioning.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Keegan?

5 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We thought, perhaps, Mr. Kay, that the witness

7 (as we have followed in other procedures) can identify that he

8 is the person, without revealing his name, of course, that he

9 purports to be. We forgot to do that. You tell me how you

10 would like to handle that.

11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I think it may be appropriate if we, perhaps,

12 did it on a piece of paper.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is how we have done it in the past. We

14 have put a piece of paper in front of the witness and then

15 confirmed that he is that person.

16 MR. KAY: Mr. Wladimiroff, attentive as ever, has already ----

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He is one step ahead of me, just waiting for

18 me, just in case, Mr. Wladimiroff, OK.

19 MR. KAY: Witness, could you confirm that that is your name?

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Without saying your name.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, it is.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then you will show that to the Prosecutor,

23 please. (Handed).


25 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour.

26 Cross-examined by MR. KEEGAN

27 Q. I would also like to start with a piece of paper. Witness U, if

28 you would, I would like to pass you a piece of paper with two

Page 5834

1 names on it and I would like you to indicate whether that is the

2 names of your wife and your son. I believe this will be

3 Prosecution Exhibit 347, your Honour. If that could be shown to

4 the Defence first, please?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You can take a look at it. We have not been

6 offering the papers into evidence. If it does come into

7 evidence, of course, it would have to be sealed. Do you have

8 any objection?

9 MR. KAY: There would be no objection to that, your Honour.


11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 347 will be admitted.

12 MR. KEEGAN: Witness U, you testified that the shelling went on for

13 approximately three days in Kozarac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That on that third day you then left with a column of people

16 from the area of [redacted] and headed into Kozarac?

17 A. On the fourth day, May 27th.

18 Q. You indicated that when you went through you noted that the

19 houses were not damaged very much, that the damage which is

20 obvious in that town today was caused at some later time. Is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You also testified that as you were moving through this column

24 there was no one controlling you, none of the soldiers were

25 controlling the column, but you indicated you were given some

26 orders by an officer at the triangle. What were those orders?

27 A. The orders were in what direction to move in the column and how

28 to move, that is, not to leave the column and to go altogether.

Page 5835

1 Q. What was the purpose of the column? What were you told?

2 A. I did not understand your question.

3 Q. Why were people forming a column and leaving the town? What was

4 the purpose of the column?

5 A. For safety sake, people were going to that collection centre, to

6 a safe place.

7 Q. You testified that the houses, the buildings themselves, were

8 not being destroyed by the shelling. So what was the safety

9 concern? Why did people not simply return to their homes if

10 they were not being destroyed?

11 A. Well, the shelling, most houses that were damaged were towards

12 the Prijedor/Banja Luka road. That is where most shells fell.

13 Q. Fine, and so in those areas that were away from the Banja

14 Luka/Prijedor road, why would those people have been compelled

15 to leave their homes?

16 A. Well, everybody was leaving and we had to leave.

17 Q. When did this damage to all of these homes take place, this

18 subsequent damage? When did that occur?

19 A. I do not know. I was not in Kozarac.

20 Q. You testified earlier you returned to Kozarac?

21 A. I returned, I returned in August, early September.

22 Q. At the time that you returned to Kozarac, had all the damage

23 been done?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you were in this column you indicated that you saw Goran

26 Borovnica near the old school?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. In fact, is it not correct that when you saw Borovnica, you left

Page 5836

1 the column, went over to Goran Borovnica, greeted him, shook his

2 hand and had a conversation with him?

3 A. He came up to the column and shook hands with me.

4 Q. So he approached you, you did not approach him?

5 A. Yes, yes, he was the one who approached me.

6 Q. What kind of conversation did you have when he came up to the

7 column and greeted you?

8 A. Well, he asked me if my family was alive, where was my son, was

9 he safe, whether my wife was with me and who was left behind in

10 the village, some elderly women and people like that.

11 Q. Did you ask him why they were shelling the area around your

12 home?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What about these other JNA soldiers that you said you saw, did

15 you ask any of them what the purpose of the shelling was?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did any of them tell you what the purpose of the shelling was?

18 A. No, they did not.

19 Q. You said that when the column moved out on to the Banja

20 Luka/Prijedor highway and headed towards Prijedor, there was an

21 ambush, an attack, in which the column was fired on. You said

22 that you were fired on by Muslims who fired on you from the

23 trees. If these people were in the trees, how did you know they

24 were Muslims who were doing the firing?

25 A. Well, because the Serbs soldiers who were escorting us, our

26 column, were responding to the attack and we simply all went

27 into ditches waiting for it.

28 Q. So how many Serb soldiers were with this column?

Page 5837

1 A. Well, the column was quite long. There could have been some 30

2 or 40 soldiers escorting the column.

3 Q. How many people were wounded in this attack?

4 A. Civilians, you mean?

5 Q. Anyone -- how many people in total were wounded?

6 A. Nobody was wounded there.

7 Q. Could we have Exhibit 280 shown to the witness, please? It

8 might speed things up, your Honour, I have a copy of it here.

9 (Handed). If that could be placed on the Elmo, please? If you

10 could zoom into the area that you see marked on there,

11 Mr. Usher, Kozarusa and Kozarac, if you could use the Elmo zoom

12 to move in? Witness U, if you could, please, indicate to us on

13 that map where approximately this ambush occurred?

14 A. [The witness indicated on the plan]. It was here, about a

15 kilometre, a kilometre, 500 metres towards Kozarusa at Susici.

16 Q. What side of the road did the firing come from?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. If you were heading towards Prijedor, OK?

19 A. Towards Prijedor, yes, on the right side.

20 Q. On the right side. So it would be between what is marked there

21 as that red road, just above the word "Kozarusa" and where that

22 yellow road is above it, the old Banja Luka/Prijedor road?

23 A. At Susici there was the bus stop, Susici, that is the place.

24 Q. Yes. So the firing was on that side of the road where the old

25 Banja Luka/Prijedor road is as well, as you can see it on that

26 map?

27 A. Yes, yes.

28 Q. You have indicated that these forces were in the trees. How far

Page 5838

1 away were they from the column?

2 A. Well, about 100 metres, 150.

3 Q. Approximately, how many forces were there that attacked the

4 column?

5 A. I do not know. I do not know. All we heard were shots and

6 bullets falling on the asphalt.

7 Q. Did the bullets fall in the part of the column that you were

8 actually in or in a different part of the column?

9 A. We hid in a ditch. There was a deep ditch and that is where we

10 hid and bullets flew over us to the other side.

11 Q. You just said that the bullets were hitting the road, so were

12 they hitting the road in the area where you were, where you had

13 just left, or did they hit in a different area of the column?

14 A. There in the column where I was and other -- and others.

15 Q. So how could you tell where the firing was coming from if you

16 were down in the ditch?

17 A. Well, from the right-hand side because the army, the soldiers,

18 went there and rejected the attack.

19 Q. How many soldiers were there that went and rejected this attack?

20 A. I do not know. About 20 or 30 soldiers went to the right

21 towards those woods, towards those ponds. It lasted for about

22 10 minutes and then we started off again.

23 Q. Did you hear any artillery firing in response to this attack or

24 any tank fire in response to this attack?

25 A. No.

26 Q. So in this attack of a column of civilians, no one was injured

27 and the Serb forces who had all of that military equipment at

28 their disposal responded only by a few of the men who were

Page 5839

1 escorting the column, is that correct?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. You said that when you went to Trnopolje you were only there for

4 two or three hours, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In fact, you were taken out by [redacted] a policeman,

7 is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You then said that you went to Prijedor and then on to Donji

10 Orlovci?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How long did you stay in Donji Orlovci?

13 A. About four months.

14 Q. Until you returned to Kozarac in August?

15 A. Yes, September, rather, it was the end of September when

16 I returned to Kozarac.

17 Q. You said that during that time you travelled to Prijedor,

18 correct, the time you lived in Donji Orlovci?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How did you get to Prijedor from Donji Orlovci?

21 A. By road, I walked on foot.

22 Q. How often did you go to Prijedor?

23 A. Two or three times a week. I went to report to my company.

24 Q. What company was that?

25 A. Sorry, I did not understand this.

26 Q. Which company were you reporting to?

27 A. [redacted]

28 Q. [redacted]

Page 5840

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were still being paid?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What route would you take to get to Prijedor from Donji Orlovci?

5 A. Donji Orlovci, Orlovaca, Prijedor. There is an asphalt road

6 there.

7 Q. If we could look at that map again, please, on the monitor? If

8 you could point out that map, that route, please?

9 A. [The witness indicated on the model].

10 Q. The area where you are pointing right now? Then you would

11 follow that road which is a yellow road on the map? Yes, thank

12 you.

13 A. This would be this route to Trnopolje, Donji Orlovci, Prijedor.

14 Q. Yes, thank you. When you went to that meeting in Kozarac you

15 said that the meeting which you attended with Dusko Tadic, it

16 was also attended by the President of the opstina of Prijedor.

17 Who was that?

18 A. I believe it was Milomir Stakic who was the Mayor.

19 Q. At this meeting where Dusko Tadic was elected as Secretary of

20 the Local Commune, who attended this meeting? Who was present?

21 A. The local people from Kozarac, from Podgradje, Babici, and from

22 Kozarac, the people from Kozarac, the people who were there from

23 ages.

24 Q. Which people were those? Do you remember their names?

25 A. Yes, I remember, Bosko Dragicevic, Dane Basaraba, Gojko Baltic,

26 all of them were there. Drago, Coprka, Bosko Dragicevic.

27 Q. Those names you have just mentioned, they were all Serbs?

28 A. Yes.

Page 5841

1 Q. In fact, the majority of the people at that meeting were Serbs?

2 A. Yes, Serbs, but there were also two or three Croat families.

3 Q. [redacted]

4 A. [redacted]

5 Q. Who arranged this meeting with the President of the opstina,

6 Milomir Stakic?

7 A. I think it was Dusko Tadic, Bosko Dragicevic, Dane Basaraba.

8 Q. Is that because they were all members of the local SDS Council?

9 A. I do not know about that. I am not familiar with that.

10 Q. You live in Kozarac now, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The majority of the residents in Kozarac now are Serbs,

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 A. [redacted]

19 Q. During this time, after August/September '92, while you were

20 attempting to develop plans to rebuild Kozarac, did you visit

21 with and meet with Dusko Tadic in his coffee bar?

22 A. No, because the coffee bar was not working after the attack and

23 after the war.

24 Q. Where did you meet him then?

25 A. We would meet in the school, in the office of the Local Commune,

26 in the street.

27 Q. Where was Dusko Tadic living at that time?

28 A. He was living at the time in Kozarac. He was sleeping in the

Page 5842

1 school, in the Local Commune when the meetings were being held,

2 when we were discussing the return to Kozarac.

3 Q. Where were you living?

4 A. I was living in Kozarac.

5 Q. Where in Kozarac -- in your own house?

6 A. No.

7 Q. In whose house?

8 A. In the house of a Muslim.

9 Q. Prior to the war -- what about the Muslim who had previously

10 owned that house, do you know where he was?

11 A. Before the war?

12 Q. No, while you were living in that person's home, do you know

13 where that person was?

14 A. In Prijedor, the daughter of the owner was living in Prijedor.

15 Q. Why were they not living in their own home in Kozarac?

16 A. Because she got killed during the operations.

17 Q. Prior to the war you were a member of the Kozarac TO?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you a member of any Defence organisation in the area of

20 [redacted]?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You indicated that your son was not at home when Kozarac was

23 shelled when the attack started. Is that because two to three

24 weeks prior to the war he, in fact, joined Serb military forces?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Your son had not joined the military?

27 A. At the time, no.

28 Q. When did he join?

Page 5843

1 A. On July 2nd 1992.

2 Q. [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 A. [redacted]

6 Q. [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 A. [redacted]

9 Q. [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 A. [redacted]

12 Q. [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 A. [redacted]

16 Q. As a consequence, you owed a lot of people money before the war,

17 is that not correct?

18 A. Not many people.

19 Q. Prior to the attack, a number of those people were always

20 looking for you in order to get their money back, to be repaid,

21 is that not correct?

22 A. No, it is not correct.

23 Q. Is it not true that you saw this war and, more importantly,

24 being on the right side of this war as an opportunity to cancel

25 all of your debts?

26 A. I never thought about it like that.

27 Q. In fact, your thoughts went beyond that. Is it not correct that

28 you and your wife then looted and stole [redacted]

Page 5844

1 [redacted] including, for example, the property of Dzemal

2 Jakupovic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Is it not true that your wife routinely accompanied the Serb

5 forces around Prijedor to loot property and, in fact, her

6 particular role was to search any women who were found in the

7 homes?

8 A. No.

9 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.


11 Re-examined by MR. KAY

12 Q. A few matters in re-examination: you have just been asked

13 questions about what you have described as the ambush on the

14 column as it was on the Banja Luka/Prijedor highway. Did you

15 actually see who was firing at the column? Did you see any of

16 the people who were firing in your direction?

17 A. No, I could not see anyone.

18 Q. You referred to them as being in the trees, but did you actually

19 know they were in the trees because that was something you were

20 able to see or were you told that?

21 A. We were told that the Muslims had attacked the column of

22 civilians.

23 Q. The people who told you this, were who?

24 A. Soldiers.

25 Q. At about what time did this attack take place when you were on

26 the highway?

27 A. I do not know exactly, but about 11.30 or 12 o'clock.

28 Q. When the soldiers left to deal with the problem, as you told us,

Page 5845

1 did any soldiers remain guarding you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you jumped into the ditch, was that as a result of an order

4 from the soldiers or because there was firing towards the

5 column?

6 A. The soldiers told us to lie down so that nobody would get

7 injured.

8 Q. So had the firing happened before you lay down and attempted to

9 conceal yourself?

10 A. No, while we were still in the column the firing started and

11 then the order came to lie down in the trenches, in the ditch.

12 Q. Did you see in which direction the soldiers went when you

13 describe 20 or 30 of them moving away to the right-hand side of

14 the road? Did you see where exactly they went?

15 A. They went in the direction of a thicket behind the column,

16 behind us.

17 Q. Was there any firing of weapons by those soldiers?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you able to tell whether firing was being returned in any

20 way towards the soldiers?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were the soldiers taking, from what you could see, evasive

23 action? Were they trying to conceal themselves whilst they were

24 going towards this thicket?

25 A. The Serb soldiers went and repulsed the attack and then they

26 came back about 10 minutes later and joined the column.

27 Q. Thank you. You were also asked about Kozarac and meetings of

28 the Council. You were asked whether the coffee bar was a place

Page 5846

1 which Dule Tadic owned, whether that was used for meetings. You

2 said that it was not working. What had happened to Dusko

3 Tadic's coffee bar? How was it at this time in August or

4 September 1992?

5 A. It was all broken up, demolished.

6 Q. Was it a place that could be made to work as a coffee bar or was

7 the damage too great at this time?

8 A. The damage was too great. The windows were broken, the bar, the

9 water pipes. It required a great deal of investment to be

10 repaired.

11 Q. You were also asked about the people who attended these meetings

12 at this time. You said that a man called Stakic who was from

13 Prijedor attended the first meeting. Did he attend other

14 meetings of the Local Commune or was it just the first one?

15 A. I do not know about the other meetings because I was not there

16 afterwards.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. KAY: That is all I ask in re-examination. Does your Honour have

19 any questions?


21 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour, briefly.

22 Further cross-examined by MR. KEEGAN

23 Q. You indicated that the coffee bar was damaged during the attack

24 and that the comment was made it would require a great deal of

25 investment to fix it up, correct?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. In fact that coffee bar is now open and in fact it is one of the

28 few businesses that is open in Kozarac, is that not also true?

Page 5847

1 A. Dusko Tadic's coffee bar is not working.

2 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you.


4 MR. KAY: Yes.

5 Re-Examined by MR. KAY.

6 Q. Is it the case that the former site of the Nipon cafe bar at the

7 Tadic family home is, in fact, still closed?

8 A. The coffee bar of Dusko Tadic is closed.

9 Q. Yes. Is there a bar now open at the family home that is in fact

10 the other side of the building in a different position to the

11 place where Dusko Tadic's cafe was previously positioned in the

12 house?

13 A. Dusko's brother Mladen Tadic has opened a coffee bar in the same

14 family home but on another side.

15 Q. Is that on the other side of the house?

16 A. It is in the same house. There is Dusko Tadic, then his brother

17 Ljubo and then Mladen Tadic, and there are business premises one

18 next to the other.

19 Q. And that is a new bar that has been opened by his brother

20 Mladen, is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask, your Honour.


24 MR. KEEGAN: No, your Honour.

25 Examined by the Court.

26 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, I had two or three questions to ask you.

27 They all relate to the column and your movement down Marsala

28 Tita Street. First of all, do I understand that you were moving

Page 5848

1 with your wife, she was with you all the time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And any other members of your family?

4 A. My uncle, his wife, my brother, his wife and other neighbours.

5 Q. When you moved down through the town, did you hear any shooting?

6 A. Yes, I heard shooting above Kozarac, Brdjani, Arifagici, Besici,

7 two or three kilometres from Kozarac.

8 Q. But you heard no shooting just close to the column?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you hear or see anyone called out from the column, any of

11 the people who were moving in the column being told to leave the

12 column?

13 A. No, I did not see that.

14 Q. You did not see any soldiers or anyone else pulling people out

15 of the column?

16 A. The column was long. It was a big one. I did not see anyone

17 doing that.

18 Q. Then when you got to the buses you had to wait for some time

19 before you got on to a bus and then before the bus moved off to

20 Trnopolje. That is right, is it not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you see any process of separation of men from women at that

23 stage?

24 A. Women were separated before, before Kozarusa, the women were

25 separated from the men.

26 Q. At what stage did that take place?

27 A. Immediately after this ambush, about 10 minutes later, the women

28 were separated from the men and taken away by buses.

Page 5849

1 Q. And that means that your wife was taken away from you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did she end up at Trnopolje where you were for some three or

4 four hours?

5 A. Yes, she arrived first at Trnopolje.

6 Q. You joined her there?

7 A. No, by the time I got there she had already left to stay with

8 [redacted] in Donji Orlovci.

9 Q. I see, and you followed on then, did you, from Trnopolje?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

12 JUDGE VOHRAH: Witness, could you tell us how many of the people in

13 the column walking down Marsala Tita Street were Serbs and

14 Croatians?

15 A. A few were Serbs and Croats. The majority were Muslims.

16 Q. Did they represent a significant number of the population of

17 Serbs and Croatians in Kozarac?

18 A. No, the majority population of Kozarac were Muslims.

19 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Where did the Serbs go, if you know, before this

21 march began?

22 A. I do not know.

23 Q. Were they in town? Were they in Kozarac, as best as you can

24 tell?

25 A. As far as I know, they were not in Kozarac on May 27th when

26 I left.

27 Q. You do not know where they went?

28 A. No.

Page 5850

1 Q. They just left Kozarac?

2 A. No, some -- I do not know.

3 Q. Do you know when the Serbs left Kozarac?

4 A. I do not know.

5 Q. When you boarded the buses, Judge Stephen was asking you some

6 questions about the separating of men and women before you got

7 to that point, or you said it happened before you got to that

8 point. When you boarded the buses did you see Goran Borovnica?

9 A. No, I did not see him.

10 Q. You testified that as you were coming down the column when you

11 were in Kozarac there were Yugoslav soldiers controlling the

12 column, is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that you saw Goran Borovnica and another individual. What

15 was his name, Zoran -- what was his name, sir?

16 A. Zoran Sumar.

17 Q. Were they part of the Yugoslav Army?

18 A. At the time it was the JNA, the Yugoslav Army. Later on it was

19 transformed into the army of the Republika Srspka.

20 Q. Well, how would you characterise the army then when they were

21 escorting the column? What would you call them: JNA, Yugoslav

22 Army, Republika Srpska?

23 A. I would rather call them the Army of the Republika Srspka.

24 Q. Goran Borovnica and Zoran Sumar, the other gentleman, were they

25 part of the Republic Srpske's army?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Did you see any individuals then who were not part of the army

28 as you were coming down that column?

Page 5851

1 A. No, I only saw soldiers who were before JNA and then they were

2 transformed into the Army of the Republika Srpska.

3 Q. Was Goran Borovnica a part of the forces that were escorting the

4 column?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What was he doing?

7 A. He was going towards the Mutnik Mosque. He stayed there and we

8 went on.

9 Q. That day did you see anyone as you were coming down the column,

10 other than Goran Borovnica and Zoran, who were not part of the

11 group of soldiers who were escorting the column, if you

12 understand my question?

13 A. I saw soldiers, but I did not know the names of those soldiers.

14 Q. So everyone you saw was a soldier except Goran Borovnica and

15 Zoran?

16 A. Goran and Zoran were also soldiers.

17 Q. OK. The house that you are living in now, in response to

18 questions I think from Mr. Keegan you said that the woman, the

19 daughter of the family, moved to Prijedor and then at some point

20 you said that she was killed. Were you talking about the same

21 person? Was it the daughter of the family who lived in the

22 house that you are in now? Is it the daughter who was killed?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. How did you happen to come to live in that house? Did you buy

25 it from someone or how did you happen, you and your family, to

26 come to live in this house?

27 A. I did not buy it. I was given it by the Prijedor opstina.

28 Q. What happened to your house in [redacted]?

Page 5852

1 A. It was destroyed during the operations, war operations.

2 Q. Were many houses destroyed in [redacted]?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. By shells?

5 A. I do not know. After we left on May 27th I did not go back up

6 for four or five months.

7 Q. I thought you testified there was some shelling but very little

8 and it was accidental. That may not have been in [redacted];

9 that may have been somewhere else.

10 A. In [redacted] there was little shelling at the time until May

11 27th. I left and then I did not go back for four or five

12 months.

13 Q. Then when you went back did you find that there had been

14 significant damage to the homes there?

15 A. Yes, it was destroyed.

16 Q. Most of the homes were destroyed?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you returned to Kozarac in September, I think you said

19 August -- no, you said the end of September of 1992, were there

20 any Muslims living in the town?

21 A. In Kozarac, no.

22 Q. Do you know where they were?

23 A. I do not know.

24 Q. Also you testified that Mr. Tadic was elected secretary to the

25 Local Council, and then at one point one of the lawyers used the

26 word "appointed". So it is not clear to me whether Mr. Tadic

27 was elected or appointed secretary of the Local Council. Was

28 there a vote taken or did someone appoint him to the position?

Page 5853

1 A. We citizens elected him as secretary of the Local Commune.

2 Q. What citizens? Was it a ballot taken for all of the citizens in

3 Kozarac or who was it who was voting?

4 A. The people who had returned to Kozarac and the people from the

5 surrounding villages, Babici, Balte, Yaruga, they were there.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have no further questions. Mr. Kay?

7 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, thank you, your Honour.


9 MR. KEEGAN: Just one your Honour or it may be two.

10 Further Cross-Examined by MR. KEEGAN.

11 Q. What was the name of the person who owned this home that you now

12 live in?

13 A. Santa Nedzod.

14 Q. How was he killed and where?

15 A. I do not know. I did not hear that he was killed nor do I know

16 anything about it.

17 Q. You indicated that the person who had lived in the home had been

18 killed, and you said a woman earlier?

19 A. No. No.

20 Q. Who in the opstina Prijedor gave you this house?

21 A. The Prijedor opstina.

22 Q. Who did you have to go to to get permission to have this house?

23 A. There was a commission.

24 Q. And where was this commission? Did you have to go into Prijedor

25 or did you go through the Local Commune in Kozarac?

26 A. In the Assembly of the Prijedor opstina.

27 Q. Did you yourself go and ask permission for this particular

28 house?

Page 5854

1 A. No, it went through the Local Commune, and the opstina issued

2 decisions.

3 Q. So was that through Dusko Tadic that you went to get this house?

4 A. No, there was a commission with Dusko Tadic.

5 Q. He was a member of that commission as the secretary of the Local

6 Commune?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.


10 MR. KAY: No thank you, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to the witness being

12 permanently excused, Mr. Keegan?

13 MR. KEEGAN: No, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Sir, you are permanently excused.

15 That means you are free to leave. Thank you very much for

16 coming. You should keep your seat for a moment and the Judges

17 will leave.

18 We will stand in recess for lunch until 2.35.

19 (1.05 p.m.).

20 (Luncheon Adjournment)










Page 5855

1 (2.35 p.m.)












13 (Pages 5855 to 5911 in Closed Session)











24 (5.30 p.m.).

25 (The court adjourned until the following day).