1 Thursday, 3rd October 1996

2 (Closed Session)

3 (10.00 a.m.)

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1 (Open Session)

2 (10.30 a.m.)

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness,

4 please?

5 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour, I call Rajko Karanovic.

6 RAJKO KARANOVIC, called

7 Examined by MR. KAY

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that has

9 been given you?

10 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I shall speak

11 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

12 (The witness was sworn)

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

14 MR. KAY: Sir, is your name Rajko Karanovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you live in Prijedor?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. Do you originate from Prijedor or from elsewhere?

19 A. I was born at Novi Grad and I have lived in Prijedor for the

20 past 25 years.

21 Q. How old are you, Mr. Karanovic?

22 A. 40 years old.

23 Q. Do you live in Prijedor with your family, your wife and

24 children?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Were you mobilized in May 1992 before the conflict in Kozarac?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Can you remember what date that was that you were mobilized?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When would that have been?

3 A. On 22nd May 1992.

4 Q. When did your mobilization finish?

5 A. On 9th February 1994.

6 Q. Did you know Dusko Tadic before the conflict in Kozarac?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you know of the Tadic family before the conflict in Kozarac?

9 A. I only heard the name.

10 Q. In what connection did you hear the name Tadic?

11 A. I went to Kozara Mountain and I used to come to his coffee shop,

12 the coffee shop belonging to the Tadic family. I heard that

13 that was their coffee shop.

14 Q. Did you take part in the conflict in Kozarac at the end of May

15 1992?

16 A. I was delivering food for the army, for the troops in Kozarac.

17 Q. When did you start that duty of delivering food to the army?

18 A. That was on 28th May, roughly.

19 Q. From where did you receive your orders to deliver food? What

20 Unit were you part of?

21 A. I was the 43rd Motorized Brigade in Prijedor.

22 Q. Your role of delivering food, did that put you within the

23 catering section of the army, or in the transport section?

24 A. I was part of the transport section.

25 Q. Did you deliver food to the army in Kozarac by bringing supplies

26 from Prijedor and delivering them to Kozarac?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When did you come to know Dusko Tadic?

3 A. In June of the year 1992 I met him.

4 Q. Whereabouts did you meet him for the first time?

5 A. At the police checkpoint between Prijedor and Kozarac.

6 Q. Does that checkpoint have a name?

7 A. The police checkpoint.

8 Q. Is it at a particular place?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is the name of that place?

11 A. Orlovci.

12 Q. Can you recollect for how long you saw Dusko Tadic at checkpoint

13 Orlovci?

14 A. In June and July, part of July, some 40 days.

15 Q. Why were you passing through checkpoint Orlovci?

16 A. Because this was the only way to reach Kozarac from Prijedor.

17 So that was actually my route and that was usual, regular route

18 that I took.

19 Q. How many times a day did you take this route?

20 A. Three, sometimes even four times a day.

21 Q. Were those supplies that you were taking at breakfast time,

22 lunch time and supper time?

23 A. Right, exactly.

24 Q. Did you deliver any supplies to any soldiers or police who were

25 on duty at checkpoint Orlovci?

26 A. No, this was not my duty. I had no obligation towards them, but

27 I used to give them food.

28 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic at checkpoint Orlovci, can you remember

1 whether he was in the military or the police?

2 A. Police.

3 Q. Can you remember how many other policemen were on duty with him

4 in his shift?

5 A. Three to four. It changed, the situation changed from time to

6 time.

7 Q. Can you remember the names of any other policemen who were on

8 duty at the same time as Dusko Tadic?

9 A. Cvijic, Brdar, Tadic. I did not know everybody. I did not know

10 the others.

11 Q. How was it that you came to know Dusko Tadic then by name when

12 he was at checkpoint Orlovci?

13 A. I did not know immediately that that was Dusko Tadic. They did

14 not actually -- they did not introduce themselves to me, but

15 some people I used to know from before the war. But then

16 I heard the name and surname of "Tadic" a month, after a month

17 of visits, as we -- and I then later met him in front of his

18 coffee shop and then I realised this was Tadic.

19 Q. How often did you used to see him at checkpoint Orlovci during

20 that period of June and July?

21 A. Well, very often, quite often.

22 Q. Were you later aware of the fact that Dusko Tadic was arrested

23 in Germany?

24 A. I learned that later, yes.

25 Q. How did you learn that?

26 A. I saw it and I read it in the media.

27 Q. Did you see pictures of Dusko Tadic being arrested?

28 A. Not -- I did not.

1 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic on duty, did you speak to him at all or

2 familiarise yourself with him? Did you strike up any sort of

3 friendship with him?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. Did you strike up any sort of friendship with any of the

6 policemen on duty at checkpoint Orlovci?

7 A. There was not much socializing. There were just contacts, daily

8 contacts, in the sense that they checked what I was carrying,

9 what I had in my vehicle, and after the initial few days they

10 actually asked me to leave some food for them because they did

11 not receive any regular supplies from the police headquarters.

12 That is how the contact with them began, which lasted for some

13 40 days during which time I delivered food and for each meal

14 I would leave a certain amount of food for them so that they

15 could eat.

16 Q. So was your association with Dusko Tadic one that was purely on

17 a working level?

18 A. Precisely.

19 Q. If I can rephrase what I was about to say, did your duties then

20 cease to involve you in delivering food to Kozarac from

21 Prijedor?

22 A. Yes, in early July they ceased.

23 Q. What were your duties after that?

24 A. My Unit was transferred to another location and I was

25 transferred with them, with the rest of the Unit.

26 Q. Which location was that?

27 A. My Unit went to Gradacac, Gradacac.

28 Q. Can you remember the date that the Unit was transferred to

1 Gradacac?

2 A. I do not remember the date.

3 Q. Did there come a time when your Unit returned from Gradacac?

4 A. A part of the Operational Unit went to Gradacac while the Rear

5 Supply Units remained in Prijedor. So I actually stayed in

6 Prijedor for a while because I was part of the Rear Supply

7 Units.

8 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic at all after you finished passing

9 through the checkpoint at Orlovci?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What was the behaviour like of those policemen on duty at

12 Orlovci?

13 A. There was some official conduct. They actually checked what was

14 -- what the vehicles carried on the Prijedor/Kozarac road and

15 the Prijedor Banja Luka road. This was very courteous, polite

16 but official.

17 Q. Did there come a time when you undertook as part of your duties

18 delivering food to Trnopolje?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you recollect when that was?

21 A. I cannot tell you precisely, but I think it was in the autumn,

22 late October, early November. It was raining already and this

23 was, sort of, winter approaching. It was fairly cold at that

24 time and I delivered food to Trnopolje for a month.

25 Q. To whom were you delivering food at Trnopolje?

26 A. I delivered food for the military policemen who were at that

27 time in Trnopolje.

28 Q. Whereabouts were those military policemen based?

1 A. The military policemen were housed in part of a building which

2 was intended otherwise to be used by the international kitchen.

3 Q. What do you mean by the "international kitchen"?

4 A. People who were in the collection centre of Trnopolje received

5 some supplies from the International Red Cross, and they were

6 served food, food provided by the International Red Cross.

7 Q. Was that in a particular building near Trnopolje camp?

8 A. This was part of the camp, this was within the camp, within the

9 collection camp of Trnopolje.

10 Q. What was the building called at that time?

11 A. I do not know. There was nothing written on the building, so I

12 do not know.

13 Q. Whereabouts was the building situated?

14 A. Just across the school.

15 Q. Is that the school inside Trnopolje camp?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How many times a day did you visit the camp at Trnopolje?

18 A. Twice, two times a day.

19 Q. What times of the day would they be?

20 A. In the morning, around 10 o'clock in the morning, and again in

21 the afternoon around 6 o'clock, 6 -- 18 hours, yes.

22 Q. What sort of supplies would you be taking to Trnopolje?

23 A. Cooked food and bread.

24 Q. How many people were being supplied with that food?

25 A. I think it was about eight people.

26 Q. Did there come a time when you stopped delivering supplies to

27 that camp?

28 A. Yes.

1 Q. Was there any reason for that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was the reason?

4 A. The camp was disbanded at one point. The Trnopolje camp was

5 disbanded.

6 Q. Can you recollect for how long in terms of time you had been

7 making these deliveries to the camp?

8 A. About a month.

9 Q. During this time that you were making deliveries, did you know

10 who was the Camp Commander?

11 A. Not for sure, but I heard that it was Pero Curguz, I think, that

12 he was the Commander, that he was responsible for the whole

13 camp.

14 Q. Did you ever go into the camp itself?

15 A. You mean the buildings where people were kept -- no, no.

16 Q. Did you know that it was mainly, almost totally, Muslim people

17 who were held in that camp?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you ever speak with any of those people who were being held

20 in that camp at that time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did they speak to you about the conditions that they were being

23 held under?

24 A. They did.

25 Q. In the time that you were there did they say that their

26 conditions were better or worse than they had been previously?

27 A. Better.

28 Q. Did they tell you anything about the guards of the camp, whether

1 they were better or worse, when you were delivering?

2 A. The conditions were better -- at least that is what they told me

3 - and that is why the military police came there, to make sure

4 that their conditions are better and improved.

5 Q. Had there been then a change in the guards at the camp?

6 A. I do not know what the organisation was for the guards in the

7 camp, neither before nor after the change, but from what I heard

8 from them, I decided that the conditions were incomparably

9 better than they used to be.

10 Q. You mentioned the military police coming to the camp which was

11 why the conditions were better and improved. Were those

12 military police at the camp at that time that you were

13 delivering?

14 A. The military police had one office in that building which

15 I mentioned earlier, and they only supervised the work of the

16 services in the camp and the military policemen were always

17 there when I arrived.

18 Q. Did you ever see Dusko Tadic at Trnopolje on those occasions

19 that you were delivering to the camp?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you know if he was the Commander of Trnopolje camp?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did anyone refer to you or say to you that he was their

24 Commander at the camp?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Can you recollect the time when the Trnopolje camp was

27 disbanded, when it ceased to function, as you told us, what date

28 that was?

1 A. I do not know the date, but I know this was late autumn, just

2 before winter began in 1993 -- 1992, sorry.

3 MR. KAY: That is all I ask. Wait there, please.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

5 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

6 Cross-Examined by MR. NIEMANN

7 Q. Sir, what is your date of birth?

8 A. 13th December 1955.

9 Q. What is your ethnic background?

10 A. Serb.

11 Q. What is your father's name?

12 A. Relja.

13 Q. When you were on duty from 22nd May 1992 taking food back and

14 forth to the troops at Kozarac, you would have seen bus loads of

15 Muslim people being taken out of the Kozarac area, would you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You never saw a bus at any stage from 22nd May onwards carrying

18 civilians out of the area?

19 A. Not buses. I saw some leaving a part of Kozarac on foot.

20 Q. They were heading towards Prijedor?

21 A. I think it was in the direction of Trnopolje, I did not come

22 across them in the direction of Prijedor. Some had already been

23 in Prijedor, but mostly in the direction of Trnopolje.

24 Q. So when you drove to Kozarac to meet up with the soldiers in

25 order to give them food, you went via Trnopolje, did you?

26 A. No, I had to cut across a section of the road which heads to

27 Trnopolje.

28 Q. You mean you passed the intersection?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That was the intersection that goes from Kozarac to Trnopolje

3 and the Banja Luka to Prijedor road?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the way out of Prijedor you would have passed the Keraterm

6 camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You saw that that changed its function after the war commenced

9 to a camp for holding people that had been cleansed from the

10 Kozarac area?

11 A. I could not see because there was a truck or something so

12 I could not see anything.

13 Q. A truck or something, what, obstructing your view of the camp?

14 A. The facilities, as facilities go, yes, but the exit or the area

15 where people might be, I could not see that from the street.

16 Q. But it is a very large building, is it not?

17 A. I could see the building, but where people were kept, I did not

18 see that.

19 Q. But you knew that it was being used as a camp for people who had

20 been cleansed from, in particular, the Kozarac area?

21 A. I had heard about it. I do not know any details though.

22 Q. The Orlovci checkpoint that you passed through and where you

23 left food, there was a caravan located on that site, was there

24 not?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. The guards would go into this caravan from time to time?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. You had nothing to do with the civilian police, did you?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You said in your evidence that you met Tadic later in front of

3 his coffee shop, this is, his coffee shop in Kozarac?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When you say "later", this was later in 1992?

6 A. It was sometime in June perhaps. I, of course, could not

7 remember the date. 1992.

8 Q. In 1992. His coffee shop was operating then, was it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did he appear to be living in the coffee shop or the building

11 near it?

12 A. No, it was damaged. The windows of the coffee bar had been

13 damaged in combat operations and he and his brother were trying

14 to do something about it or, rather, to cover it, to put

15 something there so that one could not get in, could not get

16 through.

17 Q. You stopped and talked to him on this occasion?

18 A. Yes, I saw that something, was nailing something, so I just

19 stopped and I -- that is when I met this Tadic, that is, I knew

20 his coffee bar, but then -- and I knew him from sight, of

21 course, because we met at the checkpoint. But on that occasion

22 I met him, I learnt that he was Tadic.

23 Q. What was the name of his coffee bar?

24 A. I cannot remember.

25 Q. Can you remember the colour of the building that housed his

26 coffee bar, what outside colour it was?

27 A. It was a private business. I think that the facade -- I think

28 it was brick. I think it had facade -- a part of the building

1 was the residential part, that is where people lived in, and

2 another part had been converted into a coffee bar.

3 Q. When you saw this person who you say was Tadic at the Orlovci

4 checkpoint, that was during the day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You saw him mostly during the day?

7 A. Yes, quite often.

8 Q. Did you see him on every occasion when you delivered food either

9 on the way back or the way forward or what? Can you assist us

10 there?

11 A. Well, more or less, because they did not all get off the

12 trailer. One of them would come, check the vehicle and I would

13 give them the food for them and that would be it. Those who

14 were in the caravan, in the trailer, sometimes two of them,

15 would step out or one.

16 Q. You said that you had through the media become aware of the fact

17 that Tadic had been arrested in Germany. You saw pictures of

18 Tadic when you were watching the media, did you?

19 A. No, at that time I was very busy. I had very many different

20 duties in the army, so I rarely went home and also electricity

21 was very often cut, so it was mostly on the radio.

22 Q. But since then you have been able to watch television coverage

23 of these proceedings, have you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. When did you first visit the Trnopolje camp?

26 A. Late autumn, late autumn 1992.

27 Q. So you had not seen the camp prior to this time?

28 A. No.

1 Q. You had not seen the conditions of the camp prior to this time?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You had not seen any of the people that were housed in this camp

4 prior to this time?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You did not know who ran the camp prior to this time?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You knew, however, that the camp existed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you went to the camp, it was made up mostly of old men,

11 women and children?

12 A. No, they were of all ages.

13 Q. When you say "they were all ages", all ages of women?

14 A. Both men and women and children. It was simply the population

15 which had come out of the town wanting to leave the town and, as

16 they themselves affirmed, they were being enabled to leave --

17 after leaving the town to go to that camp.

18 Q. They wanted to leave the town because they had been cleansed

19 from their homes?

20 A. I knew some who had been my neighbours and who were not

21 cleansed, who simply because of the living conditions there

22 wanted to leave of their own free will -- at least that is what

23 they were telling me.

24 Q. So that just all of a sudden in 1992 these people decided that

25 migration was the best option?

26 A. That is what they said.

27 Q. Is it not true that most of the military aged men had been

28 removed from the area by this stage?

1 A. No, there were quite a number of people of my age or even

2 younger in that camp.

3 Q. These were the guards, were they?

4 A. No, no, they were of Muslim origin. I am talking about them,

5 who were in the camp.

6 Q. The guards at the camp when you visited there were from Velika

7 Kladusa, were they, had been recruited from the people that had

8 come in from Velika Kladusa?

9 A. I would not know.

10 Q. Did you know any of these guards prior to the war?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You are not sure, are you, about the precise dates that you were

13 travelling to the camp, this is the Trnopolje camp, sorry?

14 A. You know, it was a long time ago and I kept no books of dates or

15 anything and it did not seem important then.

16 Q. So if I said to you that rather than being October/November, it

17 could have been mid October through to early December, you would

18 not argue with that, would you?

19 A. I cannot be more accurate. I know it was autumn. I know it was

20 cold and I knew that the winter was approaching. I know that

21 I covered that route for about a month.

22 Q. The sanitary conditions in the camp were less than adequate,

23 were they not?

24 A. My assignment was to bring in food to a facility where the

25 military police were quartered, to deliver this food and go

26 back. I never went into other facilities so that I cannot speak

27 about them in any detail.

28 Q. So you never made any observations whatsoever about the

1 conditions in the camp?

2 A. Nothing particular.

3 Q. You did not see the sanitary conditions in the camp?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You did not see where people were sleeping?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You did not see the food that people were eating?

8 A. I did see since there was a space, a room next to the police

9 quarters was where the International Red Cross prepared food for

10 them. I think they made tea for them and they distributed bread

11 there. So that is what I know. Other details, I do not know.

12 I know that for the large part they themselves went out to

13 obtain food.

14 Q. The people in the camp, their clothes were disheveled and dirty,

15 were they not, the prisoners that were being kept in the camp?

16 A. To begin with, it was not a camp; it was a reception camp and

17 they were in what they had left their homes in and they were

18 carrying their things and their clothes, and they could change

19 clothes and they could move around. They could go back to their

20 homes and bring over whatever they needed of their belongings,

21 either their things or food.

22 Q. So you saw people going home each day, gathering up their

23 possessions and going back and forth to the camp?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You stayed there long enough to observe this?

26 A. On a couple of occasions there was no transport between

27 Trnopolje/Prijedor, so sometimes I gave them a lift to Prijedor

28 when they asked me.

1 Q. Did you wear a uniform?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What sort of uniform did you wear?

4 A. SMB at first, and then multi-coloured military, I mean

5 camouflage uniform.

6 Q. Were the military guards in the camp supervising the police

7 guards, were they?

8 A. I did not know about how military guards were deployed. My only

9 encounter with them was a ramp where I -- when I went -- where

10 I went into Trnopolje, into the camp, that was the only time,

11 the only occasion, the only opportunity, I had to have any

12 contact with any guards whatsoever.

13 Q. There were military guards and police guards there, were there?

14 A. Yes, there were -- military were outside the camp. There was a

15 checkpoint on the road itself and then inside there were police

16 who carried out control.

17 Q. You did not know who the head of the police was?

18 A. No.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, there may be some more questions that

20 I would like to ask this witness. I am having some enquiries

21 made now about a matter that I just discovered this morning.

22 I may have the information already, but if your Honours could

23 assist by taking our adjournment now, when I come back I could

24 complete my cross-examination.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

26 (11.20 a.m.)

27 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

28 (11.40 a.m.)

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us bring the witness in.

2 RAJKO KARANOVIC, recalled

3 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN, continued.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, would you continue, please?

5 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

6 Q. Witness, I am going to hand you a piece of paper with a number

7 written on it. I am going to ask you whether you could tell me

8 whether that is your telephone number. Perhaps show it to the

9 Defence? (Handed). The telephone number in Prijedor.

10 A. This is not my telephone number.

11 Q. Not your number? Have you ever had a telephone number like

12 that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When did you have that telephone number?

15 A. In 1992/93.

16 Q. What was your address in 1992/93?

17 A. My address was in '92 until June Ulica Gavrila Principa, Gavrila

18 Principa Street.

19 Q. What was it after June?

20 A. After June it was Pecanica No. 1.

21 Q. That is entrance C1, is it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That is apartment 65?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This was an apartment formerly owned by a Muslim family called

26 Campara, is that right?

27 A. No, Campara.

28 Q. Campara, yes. My pronunciation was not good. The husband's

1 name is Hajrudin?

2 A. Hajrudin, yes.

3 Q. His wife's name is Adevija -- sorry, I will say that again. His

4 wife's name was Adevija?

5 A. I do not remember the wife's name but I know the husband's name,

6 Hajrudin.

7 Q. Your wife, in fact, worked at the same place as where Hajrudin

8 worked ----

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. --- which was the centre for primary education?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You have known Hajrudin for some considerable period of time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You visited this apartment where you lived in Prijedor, is my

15 pronunciation correct when I say Pecanica, is that right?

16 A. The Pecanica settlement, housing development settlement.

17 Q. Pecanica settlement, yes. You visited that one afternoon about

18 3 o'clock, 3.00 to 4 o'clock, in July 1992?

19 A. I do not remember the month. I think it might have been July,

20 yes.

21 Q. At the time Hajrudin was in the Omarska camp being detained

22 there?

23 A. Probably.

24 Q. Yes, and Hajrudin's wife Adevija was in the apartment with her

25 10 year old daughter?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. You had two soldiers with you at the time?

28 A. I do not remember, yes, but I did visit her.

1 Q. You were armed?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You had a knife?

4 A. I do not remember.

5 Q. In fact, you had your knife drawn and not sheafed?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You told Adevija and the 10 year old daughter that they were to

8 get out of the apartment by 6 o'clock that day?

9 A. No, I only gave her a piece of paper. That was a decision which

10 I got, rather, my wife got, to entitle us to the use of this

11 apartment.

12 Q. You told them that they had to be out at 6 o'clock?

13 A. No, I did not give any time limit.

14 Q. You returned to the house at 6 o'clock and the mother, Adevija,

15 and the daughter, 10 year old, were crying and upset?

16 A. I do not know.

17 Q. You told them if they did not get out immediately that they

18 would be killed?

19 A. No.

20 Q. They left immediately, but left all their possessions behind?

21 A. They had already removed most of their possessions. I do not

22 know why and on what occasion, but some of their things did

23 remain in the apartment when they left.

24 Q. You and your family then moved into the apartment?

25 A. In September, I think.

26 Q. Some two or three months later, Adevija returned to the

27 apartment and begged you to give her her 10 year old daughter's

28 clothes because she had no clothes for her 10 year old daughter?

1 A. She did come, but there were no things left. I did not have

2 anything.

3 Q. You told her to get out and that you would not help her?

4 A. No, I said, "These things are not with me any more" and I cannot

5 help her.

6 Q. The truth is that you would not let her have the clothes for her

7 10 year old daughter, is it not?

8 A. I had given the clothes to the Red Cross and other things that

9 belonged to that apartment.

10 Q. Is it not true that when you went to the apartment on the first

11 occasion when you told them to get out, you put a machine gun to

12 the head of the 10 year old daughter?

13 A. No, this is not true.

14 Q. You put the machine gun then to the head of the wife, and

15 threatened her with death if she did not get out?

16 A. First of all, we did not have weapons when we entered and,

17 second, I had no reason and no need for that because my wife had

18 the written decision from her school. That was a document which

19 was signed by Hamdija Kahrimanovic, entitling us to the use of

20 the apartment.

21 Q. The little girl, the little 10 year old daughter, started to cry

22 and you said she was a good actress?

23 A. No.

24 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

26 MR. KAY: No re-examination, your Honour.

27 Examined by the Court.

28 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, I wanted to ask you about the route on which

1 you travelled when you were taking supplies to Kozarac from

2 Prijedor. Perhaps you might look at Exhibit (which is a map)

3 No. 280 which will be passed to you. If you would look at that

4 map you will see Prijedor and Kozarac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And a red road connecting them, do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was that the road that you travelled on when you were taking

9 food to Kozarac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where do you say this checkpoint was? Was it on that road?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you point out where it was on the road?

14 A. Yes, I can.

15 Q. I wonder if you would put the map on the overhead? If you would

16 take the pointer which should be lying on the desk in front of

17 you and point out where it is, that is the checkpoint.

18 A. It does not say here, but roughly here, round about here. [The

19 witness indicated].

20 Q. No doubt that it was on the red road, the checkpoint?

21 A. Yes, here.

22 Q. If you keep looking at the map, do you see a yellow road that

23 begins in Prijedor and ends up in Kozarac and a couple of times

24 seems to cross rather like a snake across the red road, do you

25 see that one?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. I think that is -- yes, I think that is called the old road from

28 Prijedor to Banja Luka, is it not?

1 A. Right.

2 Q. You did not use that road at all?

3 A. No.

4 JUDGE STEPHEN: I see, thank you.

5 JUDGE VOHRAH: Witness, can you explain how it was possible for an

6 official of the school to transfer the use of the flat from a

7 Muslim family to you?

8 A. I do not know.

9 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, just a couple of questions. You testified

11 that between June and July some 40 days you passed through this

12 checkpoint where Mr. Tadic was, is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you see him each day? Is it your testimony that you saw him

15 on 40 different occasions?

16 A. I cannot be very precise, not 40 occasions, but I saw him

17 frequently manning the checkpoint. It was not Dusko Tadic that

18 came out of the van; some of them remained in the van. One

19 would come out and check what I was carrying and so on, but

20 I saw him frequently.

21 Q. What kind of uniform was he wearing when you saw him, if he was

22 wearing a uniform?

23 A. A police uniform, blue, a blue uniform. That was the old police

24 uniform of the former Yugoslavia.

25 Q. Was it dark blue or light blue? What kind of blue?

26 A. Light blue, I would say.

27 Q. Is it a solid blue?

28 A. Yes, roughly blue, I would say.

1 Q. The shirt and the pants were blue?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you remember whether Mr. Tadic had a beard when you saw him

4 on these occasions?

5 A. No, I think not.

6 Q. Was he clean shaven?

7 A. Yes, maybe he was shaven.

8 Q. Where was this caravan or trailer that you have spoken of?

9 A. To the left of the roadside on the major road between Prijedor

10 and Banja Luka via Kozarac.

11 Q. Could you describe the checkpoint? Did it have a barrier that

12 would lift up? Describe it for me.

13 A. The checkpoint was organised in a such a way there was this

14 trailer to the left of the road and the road was narrowed

15 artificially and this was broken. So you could not actually go

16 through, drive through, quickly. You had to slow down, go in a

17 zigzag fashion. There was also a sign there, a road sign, which

18 said "Slow down", so that the road was broken, so to speak, and

19 you could not drive through.

20 Q. How large was the trailer? Is it the kind of thing that is

21 pulled by a truck?

22 A. This was a camping caravan.

23 Q. Is it a part of a truck? Is it like a back on a truck or is it

24 a separate piece?

25 A. It was separate. It was separate. It was a trailer.

26 Q. How long would you estimate the trailer was?

27 A. Three to four metres, I would say.

28 Q. Do you know whether this was used by the guards to sleep in if

1 they were not responsible for being outside?

2 A. They stayed there. What they did inside, I cannot tell you.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have additional questions?

4 MR. KAY: Your Honour, no, thank you.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

6 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. I just would like to tender the

7 sheet of paper that the telephone number was written on as a

8 Prosecution Exhibit.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection, Mr. Kay?

10 MR. KAY: There is no objection to that, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do we want to seal it or does it not make any

12 difference?

13 MR. KAY: I do not think it makes any difference.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. What is the number on that?

15 MR. BOS: 352.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 352 then will be admitted. Is there

17 any objection to this witness being permanently excused?

18 MR. NIEMANN: There is an objection to him being permanently excused,

19 your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Karanovic, you may be recalled by the

21 Tribunal to testify, so you should make yourself available.

22 Keep in touch with Mr. Kay, please, and if you are requested to

23 return then you should return. Do you understand that?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will you do that?

26 THE WITNESS: Yes.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You are now free to leave. Thank

28 you very much for coming.

1 (The witness withdrew)

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, would you call the next

3 witness, please?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour. The next witness we call is

5 Slavica Lukic.

6 RADOSLAVKA LUKIC, called.

7 Examined by MR. WLADIMIROFF.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take the oath that has been

9 handed to you?

10 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

12 (The witness was sworn)

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.

14 Mr. Wladimiroff, you may proceed.

15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, your Honour.

16 Q. Madam, what is your name?

17 A. Radoslavka Lukic.

18 Q. What is your date of birth?

19 A. 21st March 1959.

20 Q. Where were you born?

21 A. Dera, Benkovac.

22 Q. What is your nationality or ethnic background?

23 A. Serb.

24 Q. Where do you live?

25 A. Gornji Orlovci, Prijedor.

26 Q. Is that a village or a hamlet near Prijedor?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. How far is that from Prijedor?

1 A. Six kilometres.

2 Q. What are you doing for a living?

3 A. A waitress.

4 Q. What is the name of the restaurant where you work?

5 A. Now you mean, at this very moment or?

6 Q. At this moment, please.

7 A. Sana Restaurant.

8 Q. Where is that restaurant, which place?

9 A. In Prijedor.

10 Q. Are you married?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is the name of your husband?

13 A. Milovan.

14 Q. What is his nationality?

15 A. Serb.

16 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

17 A. Yes, very well indeed.

18 Q. Are you related to Dusko Tadic?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Are you related to Mira Tadic?

21 A. Remotely.

22 Q. Since when do you know Dusko Tadic?

23 A. Since my childhood, since I have known myself, that is, since

24 early childhood.

25 Q. Do you know his family?

26 A. I do.

27 Q. His children?

28 A. Children, no.

1 Q. Madam, are you involved in politics?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Have you ever been involved in politics?

4 A. No, I have no time for that.

5 Q. Did you ever discuss politics with Dusko Tadic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever hear Dusko Tadic talk about politics?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you remember him ever expressing nationalistic ideas?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now let us focus on the time before the conflict broke out. Did

12 you see Dusko Tadic often before the conflict or only

13 occasionally?

14 A. From time to time.

15 Q. Where did you live before the conflict broke out?

16 A. At Gornji Orlovci.

17 Q. That is the same place where you live now?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you also working as a waitress before the conflict broke

20 out?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At a certain stage in 1991 relations between the ethnic groups

23 got sour, things escalated and the time got really tense in

24 1992, did it not?

25 A. It is.

26 Q. Did you continue to work as a waitress in January 1992? Were

27 you working at that time as a waitress?

28 A. Yes.

1 Q. What was the name of the restaurant where you worked at that

2 time?

3 A. In January, Aero Club, if I remember.

4 Q. Where was that restaurant?

5 A. Across the street from the Balkan Hotel.

6 Q. Where is the Balkan Hotel?

7 A. In the very heart of Prijedor.

8 Q. Did you ever work at the Hotel Balkan itself?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. When did you start to work there?

11 A. I would not remember the exact date, because we were being

12 transferred, depending on the needs or the requirements of the

13 job.

14 Q. Did you start to work in the Hotel Balkan before the conflict

15 broke out?

16 A. Yes, I have been there for some 15 or 16 years.

17 Q. Were you still working as a waitress in April 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are you able to remember when the Serbs took over control in

20 Prijedor?

21 A. I think it was April 30th, but I am not sure.

22 Q. I take it that it was 1992, was it not?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. When the takeover of Prijedor occurred, did you still work as a

25 waitress at that time?

26 A. I was.

27 Q. Did you at any stage before the Serbs took over in Prijedor stop

28 work in Hotel Balkan?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you at any stage after the Serbs took over in Prijedor stop

3 work in Hotel Balkan?

4 A. Yes, for a short while.

5 Q. When was that?

6 A. Well, after the power had been taken over.

7 Q. Was that immediately after the takeover or some days later or a

8 week later or weeks later?

9 A. Well, it could have been a few days after, three or four days.

10 Q. When did you start to work again, when did you return to your

11 work?

12 A. I was on the waiting list for a while, since I lived at some

13 distance from the town. They used to call those who lived

14 closer to the place. I am not sure I answered this properly.

15 Q. When did you start to work again? When did you return to your

16 work? Was that after a few days, after a week, after a few

17 weeks?

18 A. No, around 20th June or thereabouts.

19 Q. After the takeover of Prijedor, a few days later, you stopped

20 working at the Balkan Hotel in Prijedor and then about 20th June

21 you started to work there again, is that correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. In the meantime you were at home in your village, were you not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What happened in your village in that time?

26 A. Well, I was at home with the children.

27 Q. Was your husband at home?

28 A. No.

1 Q. Where was your husband then?

2 A. He had been called up. Later on he was placed under directives

3 of labour but I would not know the dates.

4 Q. Being mobilized, was he at the front?

5 A. He was a driver. He drove a truck.

6 Q. When you returned to your work, about 20th June 1992, did you

7 continue to work at the Balkan Hotel restaurant?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What were your working hours?

10 A. I worked from 7.00 to 3.00 for a while every day for some time,

11 and subsequently there would be such shifts one whole day, one

12 day off, and that is how we worked depending then on the needs.

13 Q. Did you work in other shifts too? You have just indicated that

14 you worked from 7.00 until 3 o'clock in the afternoon, did you

15 also do your job in the evenings?

16 A. I did. I worked. For a while I worked from 7.00 until 3.00 and

17 then I worked the whole day or, rather, from 7 o'clock in the

18 morning until the evening hours, that is, 8.00 or 9.00. It

19 varied depending on the curfew which means that I did work

20 evenings too.

21 Q. What was the implication of the curfew? You were not able to

22 travel or what?

23 A. After the curfew one could not move around.

24 Q. Since you were living in Orlovci, you would not move from the

25 restaurant towards your house or from your house to the

26 restaurant, is that right?

27 A. I went -- I took bicycle or I hiked, hitchhiked. I tried to

28 manage somehow.

1 Q. Do you remember the times of the curfew? When did it start and

2 when did it stop?

3 A. It started, I believe, at 9.00 until 6 o'clock in the morning.

4 Q. After the takeover in Prijedor, troubles started at Kozarac, did

5 they not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember when Kozarac was attacked?

8 A. The exact date, I do not know.

9 Q. Do you remember the month?

10 A. May, I think it was May.

11 Q. Was that on a day during the week or in the weekend?

12 A. I cannot remember.

13 Q. That is all right. Was that attack in the evening or in the day

14 time, can you remember that?

15 A. Day time.

16 Q. Where were you at that time?

17 A. At home with my family.

18 Q. Was your husband also at home?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Was he at the front?

21 A. Yes, here on the line with everybody else.

22 Q. Was that in Slovenia?

23 A. It was at Orlovci.

24 Q. Did you continue to work without interruption after June 20th

25 1992?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. That was at the Hotel Balkan in Prijedor, was it not?

28 A. It was a coffee bar, a coffee bar.

1 Q. That coffee bar was in Prijedor?

2 A. Yes, I started working there right afterwards, even though there

3 were transfers back to the hotel.

4 Q. Living in Gornji Orlovci and working in Prijedor means that you

5 travelled to Prijedor to do your job and from Prijedor back

6 home, did you not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Am I right in thinking that you just a few moments ago gave

9 evidence that you travelled by bike or sometimes a vehicle would

10 take you to Prijedor?

11 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, your Honour. I do not think that counsel is

12 right in his assumption that that was the previous evidence and

13 at this point I would object to leading questions.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have no problem in rephrasing that, your Honour.

15 As a matter of fact ----

16 THE WITNESS: I did not understand this.

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: As a matter of fact, my learned friend just tells

18 me from the transcript it appears that that was the evidence

19 indeed. (To the witness): But, nevertheless, by what means of

20 transportation did you travel to Prijedor?

21 A. I took a bicycle if the weather was nice, and when the weather

22 was bad, then I tried to manage somehow, that is, we would

23 hitchhike some vehicle and got transportation. There was also a

24 checkpoint and vehicles were being stopped there and we asked

25 the policemen to stop a car for us and give us a lift to the

26 town.

27 Q. You referred to a checkpoint, is that at Orlovci?

28 A. Yes, the checkpoint was at Orlovci.

1 Q. Is that a checkpoint on the road to Prijedor?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that road the main road from Prijedor leading via Kozarac to

4 Banja Luka?

5 A. Yes, the main road.

6 Q. Is that checkpoint near your house?

7 A. It is, very near.

8 Q. Can you tell the Court how near in metres, the distance?

9 A. About 150, 200 metres.

10 Q. Could you see the checkpoint from your house?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Can I have Prosecution Exhibit 280 shown to the witness,

13 please? (Handed). Madam, please take your time and familiarise

14 yourself with that map. First, I would ask you to look at the

15 map where you live, if that is on the map.

16 A. I have found the place where I live.

17 Q. Then look to the map again and try to locate where the

18 checkpoint is. Are you able to find it? Take your time.

19 A. I think it is here.

20 Q. Mr. Usher, would you be so kind as to put the map on the

21 overhead projector, please? If I may ask the technical booth to

22 focus a little bit more on the map? Mr. Usher, could you give

23 the witness the pointer, please? Madam, I am going to ask you

24 to use that pointer, not on your screen but on the map on your

25 right-hand side, on the map which is on your right-hand side,

26 please -- the usher will help you -- look to the map which is on

27 your right-hand side. Now look at the map again ----

28 A. Yes.

1 Q. --- and please point where you live on the map?

2 A. [The witness indicated] Here.

3 Q. Are you able to point where the checkpoint is on the main road?

4 Do you see the main road?

5 A. This is the main road.

6 Q. Do you see a red line on that map, a horizontal red line?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into a microphone?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Witness, could you look at the whole map? Do you

9 see a red road on that map running from Prijedor to Kozarac?

10 That is a yellow road, is it not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But if you go down with the pointer there is a red road, do you

13 see that?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Yes. Am I right in thinking that that red line is the main road

16 between Prijedor and Banja Luka?

17 A. I do not understand.

18 Q. Well, thank you. You have been very helpful. Let us forget

19 about the map and continue with the examination. You told us,

20 madam, that the checkpoint was about 200, perhaps 250 metres

21 away from your house at Gornji Orlovci, is that right?

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: She said it was 150 to 200.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes.

24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Can you describe that checkpoint? What did it look

25 like?

26 A. I do not know what it looked like. I do not really know how to

27 answer this question.

28 Q. Right. Let me break the question down in into smaller

1 questions. Was there a barrier over the road or was there not?

2 A. Yes, there were barriers. Yes, there were barriers.

3 Q. Was the road open for traffic or were there obstacles on the

4 road?

5 A. There were some obstacles on the road so that the vehicles could

6 be halted easier.

7 Q. Was there a facility for those who were on duty to stay, for

8 example, when it was bad weather, was there a house or

9 portacabin or a caravan or what?

10 A. Yes, there was a trailer, a camp trailer, a camp caravan,

11 something like that.

12 Q. Was that a large one or a small one? Could you describe that

13 caravan, please, or that trailer, please?

14 A. Why, an ordinary trailer, people who worked went into rest.

15 Q. Could you describe the measurement of that trailer in metres?

16 How long it was?

17 A. In metres, well, three metres or thereabouts, as far as I can

18 recall and if I am able to judge.

19 Q. Were there trees at that point?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Am I right in thinking that one of the trees was a very large

22 one?

23 A. Yes, there was a walnut tree, very tall.

24 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic on duty at this checkpoint?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. How long after the attack on Kozarac -- no, let me rephrase

27 that. You started to work again, as you told us, about 20th

28 June 1992 in Prijedor, did you not?

1 A. Right, yes.

2 Q. I take it that going to your work you passed that checkpoint?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic at that checkpoint?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Did you see him right away on the first day you went again back

7 to your work or was that later?

8 A. I do not remember very well. Maybe on the first day, but

9 certainly I did see him there as I travelled to work and back.

10 Q. Did you see him there regularly or just occasionally?

11 A. Well, I saw him when I went if he was on duty. If he was not on

12 duty on that shift I could not see him of course.

13 Q. When you were on your way to your work, as you told us about

14 your working hours, did you see him more than once a week or

15 twice a week or more times a week at that checkpoint?

16 A. I would say several times a week.

17 Q. Do you remember how many people were working at that checkpoint?

18 A. Five to six people as far as I could notice, as far as

19 I remember, but I never paid much attention to the number of

20 people which was not of interest for me. I think it was five to

21 six people who were manning the checkpoint.

22 Q. Did you know these men, except for Dusko Tadic?

23 A. I knew some people.

24 Q. Those five to six men you saw, were they working together? Did

25 they have the same shifts?

26 A. I do not know how they arranged their work. I just passed

27 through and passing through I used to see them, but how exactly

28 they arranged their shifts and so on I just do not know. How

1 this was all regulated is unclear to me.

2 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic at point Orlovci, would that be on your

3 way to Prijedor or did you also see him on other occasions while

4 you were at home at Orlovci?

5 A. He used to, he would come to my house to have coffee. They were

6 helping me, doing me a favour when I was travelling so I thought

7 I would give something in return.

8 Q. Could they not make their own coffee in that trailer?

9 A. Probably, they probably could, but he would come, he would come

10 to my house, also to my neighbour's house. This was my next

11 door neighbour, a woman.

12 Q. Just to chat and to drink a cup of coffee?

13 A. Yes, to have a chat, to have some conversation.

14 Q. Does that mean that Dusko Tadic would then walk up the lane to

15 your house on these occasions?

16 A. Yes, he came on foot. He came on foot. This was very close.

17 There was no use driving.

18 Q. Did he come by himself or was he sometimes with other men?

19 A. I remember that once or on several occasions one of his

20 colleagues was with him, those who were also manning the

21 checkpoint with him at the same time, but I do not know who that

22 was, I do not remember.

23 Q. Do you remember how long Dusko Tadic had been working there at

24 point Orlovci, at that checkpoint?

25 A. No.

26 Q. You told us that you started to work again about June 20th

27 1992. Did you see him ----

28 A. Yes.

1 Q. --- throughout the month of June?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Did you see him the next month in July 1992?

4 A. In July?

5 Q. In July.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you see him as regular as you did before, during the month

8 of June?

9 A. I know that I would see him as I went to my work. I think this

10 was regular, yes, regular.

11 Q. There were no changes in July, I mean you saw him less or more?

12 It was the same, or was it not?

13 A. I think it was the same, the same as before. This again

14 depended on their shifts, and so Dusko was on this checkpoint.

15 Q. Did that become a kind of routine seeing him there, is that

16 right?

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I am sorry, I am going to object to leading

18 questions. They are becoming more frequent.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will sustain the objection.

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I will withdraw that question, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You can rephrase it.

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: [To the witness]: Seeing Dusko Tadic at that

23 checkpoint and having him on occasions drinking coffee with you,

24 what was the behaviour of Dusko? Was there anything peculiar or

25 was it all normal?

26 A. It was all normal, normal behaviour and he would just take a

27 walk, come and visit.

28 Q. Besides seeing Dusko Tadic at point Orlovci, did you see him

1 elsewhere in that period of time or later in that year?

2 A. I saw him in the restaurant, in the hotel restaurant.

3 Q. That would be Hotel Balkan?

4 A. The Balkan Hotel, yes.

5 Q. That is in Prijedor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you able to tell us on how many occasions you saw him there?

8 A. I cannot tell you how many times, but on several occasions.

9 Q. Did you see him alone or with someone else?

10 A. I saw him with his wife.

11 Q. Was that during the period of June/July you saw him, also saw

12 him at point Orlovci or was that later on in 1992?

13 A. I cannot remember now. I do not remember at the moment.

14 Q. Did you know where Dusko Tadic lived when he was on duty at

15 point Orlovci?

16 A. I do not. I think he lived -- he lived in Prijedor I think.

17 Q. Do you have any idea which quarter of Prijedor?

18 A. No, I do not know. He never told me and I was not interested.

19 Q. Do you know what happened to his house in Kozarac?

20 A. No, I do not know.

21 Q. Did you ever see him at the police station of Prijedor?

22 A. No, I never went there.

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is all I ask, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

25 1.00 p.m.

26 (Luncheon Adjournement)

27

28

1 (2.30 p.m.)

2 RADOSLAVKA LUKIC, recalled.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We had concluded the examination, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. Cross-examination,

6 Mr. Tieger?

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

8 Cross-Examined by Mr. TIEGER

9 Q. Mrs. Lukic, you indicated that you were a relative of Mira

10 Tadic. What is the nature of that relationship?

11 A. Yes, distant. We were distant relatives. My mother and Mira's

12 mother are cousins, again distantly removed. I mean removed,

13 several times removed.

14 Q. You grew up in the area of Dera?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where was Mira from?

17 A. The hamlet of Vidovici.

18 Q. You knew her from the time of childhood as well?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How did you happen to know Dusko Tadic from childhood? Was that

21 because you were living in Dera?

22 A. While going to the school in Kozarac and that is also where

23 I met Dusko because I went to primary school in Kozarac.

24 Q. When did you move away from the area of Dera?

25 A. When I married.

26 Q. That was approximately how long before the conflict in 1992?

27 A. What do you mean? I did not understand the question.

28 Q. In what year did you marry?

1 A. No, I need concentration -- '79.

2 Q. You indicated during your earlier testimony that you were trying

3 to or you were happy to repay favours by serving coffee and

4 welcoming Dusko Tadic at your home when he visited?

5 A. Well, yes, I was happy to make him a cup of coffee and do him a

6 favour since he did me favours, things like that. You know,

7 those favours -- I have already mentioned them.

8 Q. I take it that during the occasions he visited sometimes those

9 visits were for shorter periods, sometimes they were for longer

10 periods?

11 A. He came to see me not more than two or three times there in

12 front of the house. He would not even come into the house. It

13 was in front of the house.

14 Q. You would bring him coffee and talk?

15 A. I would bring the coffee and he would say that he was leaving

16 again on his business, but that was a favour I did because it is

17 a custom to have a cup of coffee.

18 Q. You mentioned that he brought a colleague with him once when he

19 came to visit?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. OK. Was that someone you had seen at the checkpoint before

22 that?

23 A. Yes, he was with them at the checkpoint. He was with him at the

24 checkpoint.

25 Q. Had you seen that particular person with Mr. Tadic at the

26 checkpoint a few times or many times?

27 A. A couple of times, well, often but I do not know whether they

28 were always on the same shift. They were there.

1 Q. You mentioned that among the people who were on the shift with

2 Mr. Tadic you knew some of them. Who did you know?

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Objection, your Honour. That was not the evidence,

4 as far as I remember that.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

6 MR. TIEGER: I would be happy -----

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You see, I do not remember so I would suggest

8 that you rephrase the question and that will solve it.

9 MR. TIEGER: You were asked earlier during the examination about the

10 five or six men you saw on the shift with Mr. Tadic, and asked

11 if you knew some of them other than Mr. Tadic. Do you recall

12 saying that you did know some of them?

13 A. I knew -- I do not know his name, people call him Brada, but

14 I do not know what his proper name is. I simply was not

15 interested to learn.

16 Q. Was Brada a proper name or a nickname?

17 A. That was a nickname.

18 Q. Do you know what that nickname means?

19 A. I guess he had a beard. He had a beard.

20 Q. Was he the person who visited your house with Mr. Tadic on the

21 occasion Mr. Tadic brought a colleague?

22 A. I think so, yes.

23 Q. Did you know any other people at the checkpoint who were with

24 Mr. Tadic on any occasion?

25 A. No, I cannot recall any people really because they changed, and

26 I did not pay much attention to who those people were or what

27 their names were. It was simply passing by. I mean, I really

28 know Tadic best than any other of them -- better than any other

1 of them.

2 Q. Sometimes because of the distance you had to travel and the

3 weather conditions, it was helpful for you to find a ride into

4 Prijedor, is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was that one of the favours that Mr. Tadic or the others at the

7 checkpoint helped you with?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On occasion was one or another of them good enough to give you a

10 ride into Prijedor?

11 A. Well, usually they would stop a car and then ask those people to

12 take us.

13 Q. On occasion when there was not a car that was in a position to

14 do so, would they be willing to take you into town themselves?

15 A. No, no, and then I was late for work!

16 Q. Your husband was mobilized during this time?

17 A. I think -- yes.

18 Q. Where was he stationed?

19 A. I cannot really recall that, those early days. I think --

20 I cannot remember where he was.

21 Q. On occasion did Mr. Tadic or any of those at the checkpoint help

22 you out with some duties at your home, moving furniture or doing

23 some things that you could not do without your husband present?

24 A. Things -- I did not understand that. Could you repeat it,

25 please? What things do you have in mind? Tadic came only two

26 or three times to my home and then I saw him at my neighbour's

27 from whom he bought cheese or milk from time to time.

28 Q. What is that neighbour's name?

1 A. Gordana, Vlacina. Gordana Vlacina.

2 Q. How far from your home did she live?

3 A. Very near, I think third, third house, I should say.

4 Q. You mentioned during your testimony earlier that you did not

5 recall hearing Mr. Tadic express Serbian nationalist sentiments

6 to you. Do you recall hearing any Serb during that time express

7 Serbian nationalist sentiments?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you recall hearing them over the radio or reading them in the

10 newspaper?

11 A. I did not have much time to read newspapers or ----

12 Q. Mrs. Lukic, you mentioned Gordana Vlacina. Was she also a

13 friend of Dusko Tadic?

14 A. I do not think so. I do not think they were friends. We simply

15 met there, since Dusko was nearby at the checkpoint and that is

16 when we -- when she -- I think that is when she met him at that

17 time. I do not know whether they knew each other before.

18 Q. Did the three of you ever get together during that period of

19 time?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How long did you continue to see Dusko Tadic at the Orlovci

22 checkpoint?

23 A. I cannot really exactly how long. It was that summer, I think,

24 but how long, I do not remember.

25 Q. Was your husband a friend of Dusko Tadic as well?

26 A. No, nothing special. They knew each other because our house was

27 there and Dusko was there.

28 Q. Are you still in contact with Mira Tadic?

1 A. Sometimes I happen across her in the town. We both work, work,

2 but we do not really make appointments and meet.

3 Q. When did you last see her?

4 A. I saw her, well, when I was working, as when I go to work then

5 I meet Mira who also goes to work, but we did not even meet,

6 stop and talk. I mean, I really mean we never discussed this or

7 anything like it. All I asked her was: "Shall we go? If we

8 are invited, shall we go?" She said: "Yes, well, if you want

9 to, do", and that was all, very briefly.

10 Q. When did that conversation take place?

11 A. It could have been some 15 days ago.

12 Q. Where was that?

13 A. In the street. We just met in the street. We just happened to

14 meet in the street.

15 Q. When had you last seen her before that?

16 A. Before that, well, I did not see her. I do not -- I do not

17 remember that I saw her.

18 Q. What about Mr. Tadic's brother Mladen, are you friends with him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Have you happened to see him in Prijedor or Kozarac since the

21 time of the conflict?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What about Mr. Tadic's brother Ljubo, do you know him?

24 A. I knew him since my childhood, but now I hardly know him at all

25 any longer. Since he lives in Banja Luka, I simply do not see

26 him.

27 Q. Have you spoken with him since the time of the conflict?

28 A. No.

1 MR. TIEGER: That is all. Thank you, ma'am.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Nothing arises, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Lukic being

5 permanently excused?

6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, there is.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Lukic, you are free to leave now, but you

8 may be recalled as a witness, so you should make yourself

9 available. You may go home, of course, keep in touch with

10 Mr. Wladimiroff and if he tells you that you need to return,

11 then you will return. Will you do that?

12 THE WITNESS: I will.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you very much. You are not

14 permanently excused. You are excused now. Thank you very much

15 for coming.

16 (The witness withdrew)

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness?

18 MR. KAY: Nada Vlacina, please.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We thought we would meet with counsel in closed

20 session for a few minutes before we adjourn this evening, so

21 maybe at 5.15 or so?

22 MR. KAY: Yes, thank you.

23 NADA VLACINA, called.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take the oath that is being

25 handed to you?

26 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I shall speak

27 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

28 (The witness was sworn)

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

2 Examined by MR. KAY

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may proceed.

4 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

5 Q. Is your name Nada Vlacina?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you live in Prijedor?

8 A. I do, I live in Prijedor.

9 Q. For how long have you lived in Prijedor?

10 A. Since 1974 until the present day.

11 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. How long have you known him for?

14 A. I have known him since the summer of 1983.

15 Q. How did you come to know Dusko Tadic?

16 A. Dusko and my husband worked together at Banja Luka at the

17 Cajavec Company and that year, right, in 1983 Dusko and his wife

18 Mira came to visit us.

19 Q. What work was done at the factory where Dusko Tadic worked with

20 your husband?

21 A. I do not know.

22 Q. Did you ever visit Dusko Tadic at his family home?

23 A. In Kozarac, only following the death of his father, but before

24 I used to come, they lived in a private home not far from their

25 present house, so we would come and visit frequently.

26 Q. Were you friendly with other members of the Tadic family?

27 A. Well, we did not visit very frequently but, yes, I knew the

28 whole family.

1 Q. Did you know that Dusko Tadic had a cafe in Kozarac?

2 A. Yes, yes, I knew that, and I was in that cafe.

3 Q. How often did you visit that cafe?

4 A. Well, the cafe was opened only after the death of his father,

5 and I was there two to three times, but we came and visited each

6 other as families. So when we visited him, he took us into the

7 cafe to show us around, to have a drink and so on, but we did

8 not stay long. We were not ordinary cafe visitors.

9 Q. At the time of the conflict in Kozarac in 1992, were you living

10 in Prijedor?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Which part of Prijedor was that?

13 A. This was the Pecani settlement. This is a housing complex.

14 There were no other public buildings. There was no hospital.

15 There was simply a school plus family accommodations and shops.

16 This is a district, a residential district somewhat removed from

17 the city, from the centre of the city, some 15 minutes away.

18 This is a new development built in the 80s, during the 80s, 1985

19 or thereabouts.

20 Q. Are there a number of apartment blocks where families live in

21 that particular district of Pecani?

22 A. All of the buildings, in fact, were housing buildings plus

23 shops, of course, and a school. There was no medical facility.

24 There was no other public building there.

25 Q. Did you know Dusko Tadic's wife Mira?

26 A. Yes, I know her. I know Mira. I know the children. I know his

27 mother, his brothers.

28 Q. For how long have you known Mira Tadic?

1 A. Mira and Dusko came to visit us together. They had been

2 swimming and in the evening after the swim and the excursion

3 they came to visit us. So I know her since 1983, for the summer

4 of 1983, I remember that.

5 Q. So the occasion that you met Dusko Tadic for the first time was

6 also the occasion that you met Mira Tadic, is that right?

7 A. Yes, on the same time -- the same day at the same time because

8 they came to our house together in the evening, just early

9 evening before dusk.

10 Q. Were you aware of the conflict starting in Kozarac in May 1992?

11 A. Yes, I heard about that. We bought our apartment and we moved

12 there because we had not lived there before. We used to live --

13 me and my husband used to live in the centre of the city. Then

14 my husband was given an apartment and I was arranging it,

15 furnishing it, and when the shooting started I actually realised

16 that we were at war.

17 Q. Do you happen to remember what the date of that was, when you

18 heard that shooting?

19 A. The first shooting started on 22nd May 1992. This was a

20 Friday. There was something not far from Hambarine, but

21 I cannot tell you about these events. I can only tell you what

22 I heard from other people, from what I heard from the media.

23 I did not see anything with my own eyes. I did not -- I was not

24 involved in these events. But the first clashes, as far as

25 I remember, were on 22nd May in the early hours of the evening.

26 Q. On 22nd May were you in Prijedor at that time?

27 A. Yes, yes, I was at home in my apartment.

28 Q. In the days after 22nd May when the conflict continued, did you

1 remain living in Prijedor?

2 A. Yes, yes, I did. All the time I was there, all the time.

3 Q. Did you at around that time of May and the months or the month

4 after May move out of Prijedor?

5 A. No, we did not. I did not have anywhere to go.

6 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic in Prijedor after the conflict had

7 started in Kozarac or Hambarine, as you have described it?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. Did you remain living in Pecani during this period?

10 A. Yes, all that time, throughout that time I lived there.

11 Q. Did you ever see Dusko and Mira Tadic in that area of Pecani

12 where you were living?

13 A. I saw -- met them for the first time, I think it was, the second

14 half of July. Then I saw them for the first time. But I saw

15 Dusko the last time, I moved into my apartment on 26th April,

16 that was Sunday, and that was when we brought our furniture into

17 the house. This was the Orthodox Easter. I had my first lunch

18 in my new apartment. I remember that day very well. On Monday

19 was 27th of April. Then on Tuesday or Wednesday in April I saw

20 him, and after that I never saw him again. I met him in town.

21 We just stopped there and I said: "What are you doing? Where

22 are you going?" and he says: "Well, I am going to fetch Mira at

23 Sanski Most". Then Mira's sister came along and I said:

24 "Hello", "Goodbye" and so, "See you later. We are moving to a

25 new apartment. We are too busy". I tried to explain where the

26 apartment was and that was it. That, as far as I remember, that

27 happened on 27th or 28th April.

28 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic on this occasion in April 1992, you had

1 just moved into your own new apartment, is that right?

2 A. Yes, yes, a day or two, I am not quite certain, but two to three

3 days.

4 Q. You said that you had bought that apartment, is that right?

5 A. No, we did not buy that apartment. That apartment was given to

6 my husband by his Company.

7 Q. Right, and which Company was that?

8 A. The Ljubija iron mines. That is where my husband worked at that

9 time. His first job was a Cajavec in Banja Luka. I do not know

10 what he was doing there, but this was a short period of time.

11 He did not stay there for a long time, but they worked together,

12 with Dusko, and they travelled together and they were away

13 practically all day and they went to work, came back from work.

14 Then Dusko left that Company, then my husband left that Company,

15 came to Montmontaze and then from Montmontaze to the Ljubija

16 mines.

17 Q. The apartment you described in Pecani, that is where you are

18 living at the moment, is it?

19 A. Yes, we still live there.

20 Q. Was that the apartment you got on April 26th 1992?

21 A. Right, right, that was the first apartment that we got. Before

22 that I lived with my family in my father's apartment, and

23 together with my brother, his wife, daughter, there were seven

24 of us in 51 square metres apartment. That was a small

25 apartment, and my parents were there.

26 Q. Was that in Prijedor?

27 A. Yes, yes, that was in Prijedor.

28 Q. When you got your apartment in Pecani, did the Tadic family ever

1 live near you?

2 A. The Tadic family moved. I do not know the exact date. I tried

3 to refresh my memory, to decide when that happened, but in late

4 afternoon I went shopping. I visited my brother and his wife

5 and then I saw the two of them, Tadic and his wife, namely, and

6 they told me: "Well, we have got a flat at Pecani". They did

7 not know which building that was because the buildings were very

8 poorly marked, B1, C1. They knew only the block. They only

9 knew the entrance, but they could not find it. I know that my

10 children remained. This was a nice day and I remember that day

11 which was nice and peaceful, and then they actually went into

12 the apartment which they had been allocated.

13 Q. Did you ever visit them in that apartment?

14 A. Two or three days, four days later, I do not know exactly when.

15 I did not visit them at once. They said they would come to me

16 for coffee and have coffee with me. They did not come. The

17 following day they had to do some work in the apartment. There

18 were some things there. So then they went to Banja Luka to

19 bring their children, their grandmother and so on.

20 So I cannot tell you whether it was three, five, six

21 days and then I visit them for the first time. We started

22 visiting each other more regularly because in that part of

23 Prijedor they knew nobody. They had no friends or relatives.

24 They had no acquaintances, but there were no real friends of

25 theirs there. We also had no friends, really, just a few

26 acquaintances but no real friends. We were new people on the

27 block, so to speak.

28 Q. So at that time that you saw Dusko Tadic and his wife Mira, the

1 rest of the family were in Banja Luka, they told you?

2 A. Yes, they were there. I only met the two of them who came to

3 inspect the apartment while -- and then I do not know who went,

4 Dusko or Mira or together, they went to bring the rest of the

5 family, and only when everybody was there actually I came to

6 visit for the first time.

7 Q. Do you know if Dusko Tadic was working at that time that you saw

8 him?

9 A. I think, yes.

10 Q. Do you know where that was?

11 A. He worked at Orlovci. There was a police checkpoint and that is

12 where he worked. I only learned about that later when we

13 started talking to each other, tell each other about what we are

14 doing, how we are living, and so on. So he explained to me

15 where he worked, and I had my mother-in-law there. We had no

16 electricity at that time. Often there was no water supply.

17 Once or twice a week I went to the village and I brought some --

18 we got food there and that helped.

19 Q. What was the name of the village where your mother-in-law was

20 living?

21 A. Gornji Orlovci.

22 Q. What is the name of your mother-in-law? What is her first name?

23 A. Draginja Vlacina, while the father-in-law died before the war.

24 Q. When you visited your mother-in-law, did you ever see Dusko

25 Tadic at Orlovci checkpoint?

26 A. Yes, yes. Because there was no public transportation at that

27 time, the village of Orlovci was about four, four and a half

28 kilometres, and we had to go on foot for an hour and a half with

1 my children, and an hour and a half return journey. So we went

2 on foot for three hours in a single day. Because we were in

3 contact on a daily basis, I knew when he would be manning the

4 checkpoint, so then I would not -- I would not have to return on

5 foot because he would be stopping a passing car and they would

6 take us to Prijedor; and if it was the end of their shift, they

7 would also take us into the police car. Since we were three of

8 us, we could not all fit into the police car so he would stop

9 another passing car to take us.

10 Whenever I went, I actually made it a point, my

11 children are 14 and 13 now, they were little children, and it

12 was difficult for them to walk and we -- I had nothing in my

13 apartment, I had no gas, no oven, so we would go into the

14 village. We would be eating breakfast or dinner and lunch,

15 lunch and dinner, and the mother-in-law would be cooking

16 something.

17 Q. So how often did you see him at this checkpoint at Orlovci?

18 A. I cannot tell you precisely, but often.

19 Q. Can you remember when this was, when he was working at the

20 checkpoint?

21 A. He worked there in that period, when he arrived in Prijedor.

22 When we met, he told me. I did not know where he worked. Maybe

23 he had been working at Orlovci even before, before meeting us,

24 but I never went there. My mother-in-law lives about a

25 kilometre, a kilometre and a half, off the main road. There was

26 an old road, and I usually took the old road because that was a

27 short cut. It was closer to my house, to my mother-in-law's

28 house. So it was better for me to use the old road.

1 I did not even know that I could go to the checkpoint

2 and that the police would help me find a car to bring me back to

3 Prijedor, but he told me then. He said: "I am working there.

4 I can help you". So I then actually then returned on that --

5 through that checkpoint. It is possible that he had worked

6 there before.

7 Q. Did you know anyone else that he was working with at that

8 checkpoint at Orlovci?

9 A. There was another man called Brada, I do not know the name, and

10 Brdar, Brdar. I remember on one occasion I actually came back

11 with them, myself, the children, Dule and Brdar whose first name

12 I do not know.

13 Q. Did you know Brdar at the time, that that was his name?

14 A. I think I did or I may have heard the name because they would

15 call each other. One of them they called "Brada" because he had

16 a beard and again that is how I learned the name. For Brada, I

17 do not know his real name. Brdar, I remember him.

18 Q. The one called Brada, that was a nickname, was it, because he

19 had a thick beard?

20 A. Yes, that was a nickname.

21 Q. This period that you are talking about, the period when you saw

22 Dusko Tadic in Prijedor and you saw him at the checkpoint

23 Orlovci, was that before or after the conflict in Kozarac?

24 A. After the conflict in Kozarac. This was in the second half of

25 June.

26 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic on these occasions at the checkpoint

27 Orlovci, what was his behaviour like?

28 A. I do not know -- normal. They were checking traffic. Each car

1 that came along had to stop. They would check the documents. I

2 do not know what they were looking for, but then after a while

3 the car would be let pass -- let to pass and go.

4 MR. KAY: Nothing further, thank you.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination Mr. Tieger?

6 Cross-Examined by MR. TIEGER

7 MR. TIEGER: Just one moment, your Honour.

8 Q. Mrs. Vlacina, other than you and your husband and your immediate

9 family, did you have other family members living in opstina

10 Prijedor?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you have brothers and sisters?

13 A. I have one brother.

14 Q. And his name?

15 A. Milan.

16 Q. What was your husband's position with the Ljubija mine company?

17 A. He was a graduate mechanical engineer. What exactly he was

18 doing, I do not know, but he was in charge. He was a manager of

19 something, but I do not know what.

20 Q. As a manager of the mine, he was entitled to an apartment which

21 was provided by the mining company?

22 A. Well, let me explain this. This apartment was an apartment for

23 the personnel department, so to speak, in the sense that they

24 could give it to somebody important. My husband was the most

25 senior engineer and he was the last one who had not got an

26 apartment and was, therefore, given the apartment by the Ljubija

27 mines.

28 Q. That apartment was, as you indicated, in the Pecani settlement

1 which was a new development in Prijedor?

2 A. Right, Pecani B1, and in that apartment before us there lived a

3 family, a Muslim family. This was a colleague of my husband, a

4 Muslim. His wife came from a mixed marriage. In 1991, in

5 December 1991, they moved to Australia, the whole family left

6 for Australia and, if necessary, I can give you the name of that

7 person. So, the answer was -- the flat was then kept by his

8 father for a while. Then they realised that they had found a

9 good job in Australia, and so he actually had emigrated to

10 Australia and did not intend to return.

11 Then the father actually returned the flat to the

12 mines, to the mine company, and my husband being the next on the

13 list of those who were supposed to give the flat got it.

14 Q. The Pecani area is an area of high rise apartment buildings?

15 A. Well, I think that B2 -- in B2 there are several buildings there

16 and this is one of the blocks, and I think that one such unit

17 has eight floors, and I think there was another. Only one part

18 of the building has eight floors because there are several

19 entrances. In one building there are four entrances, in another

20 one there are five. I do not know. My building specifically

21 has six floors, the building in which I live.

22 Q. Is that the most modern, most recent, development in Prijedor?

23 A. It is, yes, and B1, that building where I live now, it was built

24 two or three years -- no, I do not know when it was finished,

25 when it was completed, but they are the most modern buildings in

26 Prijedor and these are nice apartment blocks, all of them.

27 Q. When you visited the Tadic family in their new apartment in

28 Pecani, did you notice whether or not the flat was empty or

1 whether it was fully furnished?

2 A. Well, very little furniture was left in the flat. It was all

3 unusable and the basic things were lacking such as, for

4 instance, television set or, for instance, a wooden stove.

5 There were very few things left. I know there was a table in a

6 very poor condition, all cracked, kept together with scotch

7 tape, a settee or something, but it was all very old in that

8 room in which I was, that living room.

9 Q. Did you know who the previous owner or occupant of the apartment

10 had been?

11 A. No, no, I did not know that.

12 Q. You were not told that the previous occupant had been Hasan

13 Tulundzic, the head of the SUP?

14 A. I heard that. I heard that. But I did not live there. I did

15 not know anyone there, except here and there. I mean, I did not

16 live there before that because by the time I got settled in my

17 house, in my apartment, everything was over. I had no time to

18 meet anyone or to learn where everybody lived.

19 I had a friend who was a Muslim, and when electricity

20 and water supply were cut off she came to me because I had a

21 water pump, and then she explained where she lived and explained

22 that she had a stove with wood. So I spent for a while cooking

23 at her place, and I had another friend, a Croat, who was married

24 to a Serb, and they were the only two persons until the Tadic's

25 arrived and then again they were the only people whom I knew in

26 Pecani.

27 Q. But you knew that Hasan Tulundzic and other Muslims of the area

28 had been forced to leave because they were Muslim?

1 A. I do not know these things. Listen, people went in different

2 ways. Some went this way, some that way, but how individuals

3 left, I do not know. I would not be able to answer that

4 question because some people left of their own free will. For

5 instance, my husband's colleague, that is the one into whose

6 flat we moved, the man himself before the war, before anything

7 happened, simply left Prijedor. He had asked for an emigration

8 visa, obtained it all from Australia because he was a

9 specialist, an engineer, got a nice job there, took his family.

10 People left, everybody who could have left Prijedor, all those

11 who could find a job elsewhere and settle elsewhere, that is

12 what I do know.

13 Q. Did you know that many of those who left Prijedor town, for

14 example, ended up in Omarska or Keraterm before they left

15 opstina Prijedor?

16 A. I do not know. Of my friends, Muslims, Croats, with whom I and

17 my husband socialised, I think 80 or 90 per cent of them were

18 that large number. Almost all our friends were either Muslims

19 or Croats, even acquaintances. They are all alive and well.

20 Except for one, none of them were in Omarska and I heard about

21 Omarska only later. That friend of mine, that Muslim, in whose

22 house I used to cook, her husband was also a mechanical

23 engineer. He had been to university with my husband and the two

24 of us, I mean, she and I were together at school, and he was in

25 Prijedor and he left but he had not been to any of those

26 places. I am telling you about my friends, about my

27 acquaintances, about people with whom we socialised, with whom

28 we had contact, I and my husband.

1 Q. You are not suggesting that 80 to 90 per cent of the Muslims who

2 lived in opstina Prijedor before the conflict remain there

3 today?

4 A. No, I do not know how many of them are there now. I simply do

5 not know the figures. I do not know how many Muslims there

6 are. I know there are, but I did not how many of them were

7 there before the war or how many there are now. We still have a

8 Muslim family, purely Muslim family, a man who was with my

9 husband in the same company and with whom we still have good

10 relations, and that is a purely Muslim family.

11 Q. So you are not sure if there was any decline in the Muslim

12 population of opstina Prijedor since the war?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Are you suggesting that those people left of their own free

15 will?

16 A. I would not know that. I mean, I simply do not know. Some went

17 of their own volition, some -- my life was very hard in 92. It

18 was a struggle for survival, what to give children for

19 breakfast, what for lunch, what for dinner. All I could think

20 about came down to that, how to feed my family.

21 Q. Did your husband continue to work for the mining company during

22 the spring and summer of 1992?

23 A. No, no, he did not work there. He was under directives of

24 labour since '93, since April '93.

25 Q. Where was he working and what was he doing in the spring and

26 summer of 1992?

27 A. In the mine. In summer of '92 he did not work. My husband --

28 the last day he worked was Friday 22nd May, it was Friday, until

1 April 1993.

2 Q. Before that which complex of the mining company had he worked

3 in?

4 A. The Omarska mine.

5 MR. TIEGER: That is all I have. Thank you.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

7 Re-examined by MR. KAY

8 Q. Just one matter: I would like you to look at this photograph,

9 madam, and tell me if you recognise it. I tender it before the

10 Court as D67. Do you recognise that photograph?

11 A. I do. This is the building, B2, and above it, I think this is

12 where Dusko Tadic's flat was. This is the passage here, this

13 third window here.

14 Q. Thank you. Perhaps that photograph there (which is the only one

15 I have) could be shown to Mr. Tieger at this stage and then put

16 on the overhead projector?

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to -- are you offering

18 Defence 67?

19 MR. KAY: Yes, I am, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

21 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour, no objection.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 67 will be admitted.

23 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. If we could put it on our

24 monitor? Madam, if you look to the right of you, you will see

25 the photograph on the table to your right. Could you indicate

26 with the pointer which was the flat of Mr. Tadic -- not on the

27 television screen but actually on the photograph itself?

28 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph] This one here.

1 Q. Thank you. Was that long enough on the monitor for the Court to

2 see? Thank you.

3 MR. KAY: That is all I ask, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

5 Further Cross-examined by MR. TIEGER

6 Q. Mrs. Vlacina, was your husband a member of the SDS Party?

7 A. No, no, no, never. No member of my family, not one of my

8 friends, was ever a member of either SDS or SDA, neither Muslims

9 nor Serbs, and that perhaps was very unfortunate for me because

10 when the war came, I mean, none of us had anything.

11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

12 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Vlacina being

14 permanently excused?

15 MR. TIEGER: There is, your Honour, and, if I may, if I could ask one

16 final question? Sorry, I realise that ----

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, fine. I also have a question I think

18 now. You go first.

19 MR. TIEGER: Ma'am, you may have answered this question earlier, but

20 what is your husband first name?

21 A. Must I answer that question? Milan Vlacina, mechanical

22 engineer.

23 Examined by the Court

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Vlacina -- help me pronounce your name?

25 A. Nada Vlacina.

26 Q. You said right at the end of your testimony that, unfortunately,

27 you were not a member of the SDS and no one in your family, you

28 say, was a member of the SDS, and because you were not when the

1 war came you had nothing. What do you mean by that?

2 A. Well, until the very last day I did not believe that a war would

3 break out, that there would be a war, because we could not hear

4 anything from anyone, neither from Muslims nor from Serbs.

5 I mean, those people with whom I had in contact, that we had

6 contact with, nobody knew anything, because none of them were

7 close to the authorities or participating authorities. Nobody

8 went to any meetings or anything. We were simply all waiting

9 and hoping that there would not be any war.

10 When I moved into that flat, I had most of the things,

11 I had most of the things, but I lacked curtains or carpets, or

12 things, and I had bought all these things. So, what money I had

13 I invested into the flat. Had I known what would happen,

14 I would have, you know, kept that money and, therefore, tried to

15 feed the family with it.

16 In my circle, among my friends, neither Muslims nor

17 Serbs, nobody knew anything. We saw that something was in the

18 offing, but nobody knew anything specific and I had very many

19 friends among Muslims, very nice people, great workers, not

20 intellectuals only, there were craftsmen and engineers, and it

21 hit us all in the same way, all of us, and that Muslim family

22 helped me more during that war than I would have been able to

23 help them under the circumstances.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

25 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, thank you, your Honour.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

27 MR. TIEGER: No.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you asking that this witness be available

1 just in case you want to have her recalled, is that what you are

2 saying?

3 MR. TIEGER: That is correct, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Ma'am, you are excused today and you are

5 free, of course, to go home but you should be available because

6 you may possibly be recalled as a witness. So you should keep

7 in touch with Mr. Kay. He will advise you if you are to return

8 to the Tribunal to testify again. Will you do that?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, all right.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much for coming.

11 (The witness withdrew).

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, your next witness?

13 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, the next witness is Sava Vokic.

14 Your Honour, if I might say, this witness would prefer to have

15 the oath read to her so she can repeat it.

16 SAVA VOKIC, called

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Ma'am, this is the oath that I am now reading;

18 would you repeat after me, "I" and your name?

19 THE WITNESS: Vokic Sava.

20 (The witness was sworn, having duly repeated the words of the

21 oath as read by the learned Presiding Judge).

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

23 Examined by MISS DE BERTODANO

24 MISS DE BERTODANO: Witness, is your name Sava Vokic?

25 A. It is.

26 Q. What is your date of birth?

27 A. In 1934.

28 Q. Where do you live?

1 A. Velko Palanciste, Prijedor. Velko Palanciste.

2 Q. How far is Velko Palanciste from Prijedor?

3 A. About three kilometres.

4 Q. How far is it from Kozarac?

5 A. From Kozarac, about 20, 22 kilometres.

6 Q. Are you married?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What is your husband's name?

9 A. Slavko Vokic.

10 Q. How long have you lived in Velko Palanciste?

11 A. Well, I have lived there for -- it will be about 20 years.

12 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

13 A. I know Dusko Tadic since he was born, when he was born.

14 Q. Is he a relation of yours?

15 A. Not, not really -- yes, a little bit. My husband's relative,

16 but my husband is no longer with us, and so .....

17 Q. How is Dusko Tadic related to your husband?

18 A. Well, I think that they were distant cousins with his mother,

19 distant. They were cousins.

20 Q. Do you know the parents of Dusko Tadic?

21 A. Yes, I do. I do know his parents.

22 Q. What are their names?

23 A. His parents?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Ostoja and Staka Tadic.

26 Q. Now you have told us that you knew Dusko Tadic since he was

27 born?

28 A. Oh, yes.

1 Q. How often would you see Dusko Tadic?

2 A. When he was younger or smaller, of course, it was more often.

3 As the time went by, of course, less and less, and so .....

4 Q. Do you remember the conflict which broke out in Kozarac?

5 A. Not quite. It started but I do not really remember it well.

6 Yes, there was fire. I was far away and, of course, everybody

7 has his own duties, things to do.

8 Q. Can you remember approximately what time, when the conflict in

9 Kozarac happened?

10 A. To tell you frankly, to tell you the truth, I remember Jovica

11 Zgonjanin was killed. Then we heard he was killed and then a

12 clash began and went on. That is what I remember.

13 Q. Do you remember what year this was?

14 A. Why, I think it was in '92.

15 Q. Do you remember the month of that year?

16 A. It must have been around late May. I would -- do not ask me the

17 date, but I think it was late May.

18 Q. Thank you. In the couple of years before the conflict, had you

19 seen Dusko Tadic often?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How often would you have seen him during that time,

22 approximately?

23 A. To tell you the truth, I did see him on 2nd May. That was when

24 I saw him. It was 2nd May. That was that date.

25 Q. How do you remember that date?

26 A. I remember that date because my mother-in-law -- how shall

27 I tell you? We were burying -- no, it was the first, it was the

28 anniversary of her death and he was in Banja Luka, and then

1 I remembered because relatives came from Banja Luka. That is

2 when I saw him.

3 Q. What relation was she to Dusko Tadic?

4 A. To tell you quite -- to tell you the truth, she was his great

5 aunt.

6 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic before the conflict again after 2nd May?

7 A. No, it was then that I saw him and then I did not see him for a

8 long time.

9 Q. Do you remember approximately when you next saw him?

10 A. Well, it was in the month of June.

11 Q. Where did you see him on that occasion?

12 A. On that occasion I saw him because they were looking for him

13 from Banja Luka. They were trying to find him, where was he,

14 and he was not there. Then I heard he came from Banja Luka

15 and ----

16 Q. Where did you see him?

17 A. Well, I saw him, he came to get some of his things. He was

18 looking for something. He met my son. Do you want me to tell

19 you or?

20 Q. Yes you tell us.

21 A. He came across my son, when he came from Banja Luka, and he

22 found some of his effects, some of his belongings, in his coffee

23 bar and asked my son where could he store it, so as to keep what

24 little he had found.

25 Q. So Dusko asked your son where he could store some of his

26 belongings from his coffee bar?

27 A. Yes, coffee bar, yes.

28 Q. Where did Dusko store these things?

1 A. Then he stored them, those things of his with me. It was not

2 much. Do you want me to tell you all what happened and what he

3 brought?

4 Q. Yes, please.

5 A. Right. He first brought, but let me tell you, he brought a

6 crate -- no, he brought a tool box with a car tool box. He

7 brought a desk, some chairs that he found in his coffee bar and

8 some tables from it. He also brought a hot water boiler and a

9 thermal boiler or a part of the flush toilet, and then he had

10 some clothes tied in a bundle, his children's clothes. What

11 else could have been there? You know, three years, it has been

12 three years now. I did not really think that I would have to

13 remember those few things. It was not really much, nothing to

14 write home about, but, well, you know, he wanted to store it and

15 he did it with me.

16 Q. So he brought them to you at your house?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was he on foot or did he come in a car or a vehicle?

19 A. Well, there was a truck, it was a closed, a covered truck.

20 I think it was a medium sized truck, not big really.

21 Q. What conversation did you have with him when he arrived at your

22 house?

23 A. Oh, well, when he came I said: "Children, what are you doing?

24 It is wartime. I am afraid", and he said, "Don't be afraid,

25 that is all that I earned in my lifetime". That is what he

26 said. "Do not be afraid, this is what I earned. I have got

27 nothing left of the coffee bar. It has all been demolished".

28 Q. Did you tell him that he could store it at your house?

1 A. Why not, since this child brought it all, then why not, since he

2 brought it?

3 Q. Was he with anyone on this occasion?

4 A. A driver, he was a driver.

5 Q. He had a driver with him?

6 A. A driver was with him.

7 Q. Did you know this driver?

8 A. No, no, I did not. How could I?

9 Q. How long did he stay at your house on this occasion?

10 A. No, he did not come in, 20 minutes, just to unload it all in the

11 garage. That was that.

12 Q. Did he talk to you at all about where he had been or what had

13 happened to him?

14 A. No, nothing. They simply unloaded it all, turned and left --

15 nothing.

16 Q. Have you seen Dusko Tadic since this time?

17 A. Never again. I did not see him ever again since he was -- he

18 escaped to Banja Luka, he left, he was gone, nor has anybody

19 told me anything. No, I did not see him since.

20 Q. Did anyone ever come to collect the belongings that he had left

21 with you?

22 A. Well, let me tell you how he came for his belongings, because he

23 had nothing to live on in Banja Luka, so he was selling them,

24 simply to make some use of them, to survive, because he fled to

25 Banja Luka and you had to live on something. So, there was

26 something, so -- and something he sent to mother because she had

27 nothing to eat. So he sent this desk to his mother and the wash

28 basin he sent to his mother and chairs and things like that from

1 the coffee bar. He had to sell it in order to survive. So that

2 is it. I do not know if I have told you all about it, but

3 I think that is it. That is the story I know. So, you see?

4 Q. But he never came in person to collect any of the belongings

5 that he had left with you, is that right?

6 A. No, no, nothing. He never came because he escaped to Banja Luka

7 and they were looking for him so he was hiding. How did he

8 reach Belgrade, that I do not know. There it is.

9 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

11 (4.00 p.m.)

12 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

13 (4.20 p.m.)

14 SAVA VOKIC, recalled.

15 Examined by MISS DE BERTODANO, continued.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano?

17 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, in the event I have no further

18 questions.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any cross-examination, Mr. Niemann?

20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

21 Cross-Examined by MR. NIEMANN

22 Q. Madam, I think you said in your evidence that when Dule Tadic

23 was in Banja Luka that people were looking for him, is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes, that is right. That is right.

26 Q. Who was looking for him?

27 A. Well, the police and SUP were looking for him. They did not

28 know where he was.

1 Q. Did you know why they were looking for him?

2 A. Well, they were looking simply to know whether he was still

3 alive, where he was, because he had escaped to Banja Luka and

4 they did not know where he was, where the children were, where

5 their mother was.

6 Q. You said that he brought the goods to your house in a truck, is

7 that right?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. What colour was the truck?

10 A. Well, it was not -- it was not a military truck. This was a

11 private, a private lorry, a private truck, covered.

12 Q. Do you remember the colour of it?

13 A. I would say some nondescript colour. It is difficult to

14 remember. I know I saw a lorry, I saw a truck, and I was

15 afraid. I said: "Jesus Christ, what is happening? We are at

16 war" and so on. He said: "Don't worry. All I have is here in

17 this truck".

18 Q. When you saw him on that occasion, he told you that his cafe bar

19 had been demolished, did he?

20 A. He -- yes, of course. There was fighting. The drinks,

21 everything valuable was taken away, the chairs and the tables.

22 Then he brought only one table, one box of tools for car repair,

23 the wash basin and the flush toilet. Then there was a -- there

24 was a children's -- a set of children's clothing, textiles, in a

25 sheet, in a bed sheet, and this was all tied and this was a

26 bundle, for children.

27 Q. A moment ago when you were telling us about people looking for

28 him, that was when he went to Banja Luka, Belgrade and then off

1 finally to Germany, was it?

2 A. I know that they were looking for him. I know that he fled to

3 Banja Luka. Now, you see, in our army he went to Banja Luka,

4 how he lived there, but he sent a child, a son of his brother,

5 who took some of the things from my garage to sell and to live.

6 Later, we did not know where he was. Then we learned he had

7 gone to Belgrade and later we had heard that he left for

8 Germany. That is as far as I know. I do not know much more.

9 I give you my word of honour.

10 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you very much. No further questions.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano?

12 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing arises, your Honour.

13 THE WITNESS: Can I take off my headphones?

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Not yet. Is there any objection to Mrs. Vokic

15 being permanently excused?

16 MR. NIEMANN: We have no objection, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Mrs. Vokic, you are permanently

18 excused. You are free to leave at this time and return to your

19 home. Thank you very much for coming.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

21 (The witness withdrew)

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I see you are trying to decide who will be

23 handling the next witness. OK. Very good. Mr. Wladimiroff, you

24 have won -- or lost. Would you call your next witness, please?

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I will, your Honour, it will be Dasic, Tomislav

26 Dasic.

27 TOMISLAV DASIC, called

28 Examined by MR. WLADIMIROFF

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is

2 being handed to you?

3 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I shall speak

4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

5 (The witness was sworn)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

7 Mr. Wladimiroff?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, your Honour.

9 Q. Is your name Tomislav Dasic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What is the date of your birth?

12 A. 19th October 1946.

13 Q. Where were you born?

14 A. Daba, community of Sanski Most, Republika Srpska.

15 Q. What is your nationality, sir?

16 A. Serbian.

17 Q. Where do you live?

18 A. In Prijedor.

19 Q. In which quarter of Prijedor?

20 A. In the city centre.

21 Q. What is your profession?

22 A. I am a graduate agronomist and agricultural engineer. I also

23 have a Masters degree, MSc, in agriculture.

24 Q. Are you employed or self-employed?

25 A. I am the Director of the Prijedor Agricultural Station of the

26 Republika Srpska.

27 Q. What are your duties as a Director?

28 A. I run a state-owned enterprise, trying to implement scientific

1 knowledge in agriculture. We also have an intermunicipal

2 service, advisory service, extension service. We have

3 experimental farms, two private pharmacies for pesticides and we

4 try to improve agricultural production over four communities of

5 Dubica, Novi, Kostajnica and the community of Prijedor.

6 Q. Is the type of your involvement working from your desk or are

7 you travelling around for that purpose?

8 A. Both, both. I work in the field and in the office and I travel

9 also.

10 Q. Since when did you hold this position?

11 A. As soon as the war began I was appointed.

12 Q. What was your profession before the war?

13 A. I was in the same agricultural service, and I was in charge of

14 working in my field of speciality, because as my speciality is

15 vegetables and actually I was working in five municipalities

16 covered by our service.

17 Q. Before the war you were travelling around too, were you not, in

18 the area?

19 A. Every day, practically every day, every day.

20 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

21 A. I know Dusko Tadic now. I met him in 1992. I had not known him

22 before.

23 Q. Could you indicate a month in 1992 when you first met with Dusko

24 Tadic?

25 A. Late September, early October perhaps.

26 Q. Just in general how well did you since then know Dusko Tadic?

27 A. I used to know him before from sight, but I knew his father,

28 Ostoja. I worked in the field. I travelled a lot. I was on

1 various commissions. I was the land evaluator, evaluator of the

2 value of land. So I did not know him at that time, but I knew

3 his father and although we had no contact I knew of him.

4 Q. Is it fair to say that before the war you have seen him and

5 since late September 1992 you got to know him better?

6 A. Well, I was in his cafe on one occasion and I saw him there but,

7 as I say, we had no direct contact.

8 Q. Let us focus on the outbreak of the conflict. Do you know when

9 the Serbs took over in Prijedor?

10 A. That was on the eve of 1st May 1992.

11 Q. Do you remember the conflict broke out in Kozarac later on?

12 A. Since I lived in the city centre, I learned only later that a

13 soldier had been killed at Jakupovic between Omarska and

14 Kozarac, that a soldier had been killed. The tank was ambushed

15 and the Green Berets killed a Serbian soldier who was in the

16 uniform of the Yugoslav Army. This was one of the direct causes

17 which led to disagreement between the Serbs and the Muslims.

18 Q. From there things got worse and Kozarac was attacked, is that

19 true?

20 A. The situation deteriorated and the rest, I do not know. I do

21 not know exactly when Kozarac was attacked by the Serbian Army.

22 Q. While the conflict developed, let us say the period of the

23 takeover in Prijedor and later on, did you continue to work or

24 did you stay at home in that hectic period of time?

25 A. After the takeover, we continued to work until Prijedor itself

26 was attacked and actually I went to my job every day. Then

27 after the attack on Prijedor, the situation became much worse

28 and worst imaginable perhaps.

1 Q. You told us that you saw Dusko Tadic late September 1992,

2 perhaps the beginning of October 1992, although you may have

3 seen him on occasions before the conflict. What was the reason

4 you saw him again late September, beginning October 1992?

5 A. I met him officially in 1992 in late September, early October,

6 because we were assigned to the same -- appointed to the same

7 commission, to work together, and I was the chairman of that

8 commission so I met him in this sense. Earlier, I had been to

9 his cafe in March or April and I saw him then. I remember

10 seeing him then. Later I learned that that was his, actually

11 his restaurant, his cafe.

12 Q. What was this commission, what was the kind of work this

13 commission was doing?

14 A. This commission had the task of recording the situation in the

15 field, the land, houses, deserted houses, deserted business

16 premises, then the houses that had been vacated and that could

17 be used by refugees, so that the refugees could be put into

18 these houses if they were livable.

19 Q. Was there a special reason in those days to have this committee

20 organising these kinds of things? Were there a lot of refugees?

21 A. Yes, at that time many refugees were arriving and there was no

22 other reason but simply to accommodate the refugees. We had to

23 find some places for them so they do not just live in schools or

24 gymnasia and so on. Refugees came in great numbers, masses of

25 people. They could not sleep in the park. There were not

26 enough trailers, mobile homes. So we actually had officially to

27 assign them to vacated flats so that we know who was where and

28 where they could be housed.

1 Q. This committee, was that an official committee of the local

2 authorities?

3 A. This was an official committee of the local government of the

4 Prijedor municipality to check the situation in the field, to

5 record that situation and to submit the findings to the central

6 municipal committee which was deciding as to who will be

7 assigned what house, what apartment, what farm, so that these

8 vacated buildings and vacated business premises could be

9 assigned to other people.

10 We were simply charged with recording the situation in

11 the field such as it was, to make -- to take notes, make

12 protocols, is there a building, what kind of a situation it is,

13 if it is good enough for people to be housed there? So we

14 actually were professional people making professional

15 assessment. We had an agricultural specialist, then we had a

16 geometer and Dusko, as representative of the local community of

17 Serbian Kozarac.

18 On the basis of our documents, on the basis of our

19 protocols, the municipal commission later actually issued orders

20 or entitlements to housing. While we, as a committee, as a

21 commission, three-member commission, we signed the protocols and

22 submitted the protocols to the central municipal commission,

23 which was a legal body, a legally constituted body, to make

24 property decisions in the municipality of Prijedor.

25 Q. This committee, was that the only committee working in the

26 opstina of Prijedor or were these committees organised on the

27 basis of local communes?

28 A. At that time three such commissions were in operation. Before

1 that there had been other commissions which had not been

2 successful in performing the task. So, all three commissions

3 when I was there actually were conducted by agronomists,

4 agricultural engineers. We were people probably most serious

5 and I, as the Director of my company, was actually sent on to

6 that commission because I had enough experience and I knew that

7 I could perform the job properly and I think to an extent we

8 actually succeeded.

9 Q. Which area did your commission cover?

10 A. My commission covered the area of the cadastral municipality of

11 Kozarac, Trnopolje partly, Kozarusa, Kamicani, part of Dera,

12 part of Bozici, to the right and left side of the main road

13 Prijedor/Banja Luka.

14 Q. You also referred to a part of Trnopolje. Would that be the

15 northern part of Trnopolje called Hrnici?

16 A. This was the part of Trnopolje up to Hrnici and we actually

17 covered, also my commission was responsible for part of Hrnici

18 as well, but winter came too soon and we did not manage to do

19 that in that part.

20 Q. Who were members of your commission besides yourself and Dusko

21 Tadic?

22 A. There was Gordana Tadic, Gordana Sobot, a geometer. She was a

23 member of the geodesics service of the Prijedor municipality.

24 She had all the cadastral data, land books and things, and she

25 actually knew who the owners were and she could take these

26 documents in the field to decide whose building was where, who

27 had what land, so that this was completely well organised on the

28 spot.

1 Q. Was Gordana Tadic related to Dusko Tadic or was she not; she

2 just happens to have the same name?

3 A. Her surname was not Tadic. She is married, Sobot.

4 Q. Her maiden name?

5 A. I do not know the maiden name and she was not related to Dusko

6 Tadic. I do not know the maiden name. She was married Sobot

7 and now her married name is Sobot still.

8 Q. The transcript says there was Gordana Tadic, but apparently that

9 is not correct?

10 A. No, no, that is not correct. Sobot, Sobot, because she was

11 married but I cannot tell you the maiden name.

12 Q. Thank you. When did your commission start to work or at least

13 when did you start to work as President of that commission?

14 A. Well, we had some problems with the work of the commission

15 because we had no car and we had no fuel. So that since I was

16 very busy, it was not easy to organise this. We started

17 probably in early October and then we worked intermittently

18 since we had no fuel, no petrol, and actually I was very busy

19 and I did not have enough time to work intensively. But later

20 we managed to get the car. The municipality decided to allocate

21 a car to us and so on. So when the conditions were better, we

22 worked much more intensively and well.

23 Q. When did your committee cease to function?

24 A. As far as I can remember, we worked until it was quite cold. We

25 actually worked on our protocols outside in the open. We never

26 entered any house. So probably between 1st and 15th December

27 1992, around that time, we stopped working, somewhere between

28 1st and 15th December. I do not remember the exact date, but

1 I know that November was the time when we worked at full steam,

2 so to speak.

3 Q. So you have been working, as I understand it now, from

4 approximately 1st October up to 1st or 15th December?

5 A. Right, right, some two to two and a half months altogether.

6 Q. What kind of involvement was required here? Would you be

7 working with the commission once a week or twice a week or more?

8 A. Well, we sometimes worked for the whole week, four to five days

9 a week, even on Saturdays, but this was a slow process because

10 many people were not there. Many houses had been vacated.

11 Sometimes it took us the whole day to finish one, one building,

12 one site. Sometimes we could do three to four sites a day,

13 depending on the weather when it began to rain, to snow. In

14 late November the weather was very, very variable. It was like

15 here in The Hague -- rain, sunshine and so on.

16 Q. You told us that the Local Commune gave your commission a car,

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes, the municipal authorities, not the local community but the

19 municipal authorities, the executive committee of the Assembly

20 of the municipality of Prijedor, they were deciding. They gave

21 us an official car. Sometimes I was driving, but often we had a

22 professional driver who was with us.

23 Q. Would that professional driver take the car with him home back

24 to Prijedor when your duties were finished at the end of the

25 day?

26 A. Yes, yes.

27 Q. That car belonged to the municipality of Prijedor, did it not?

28 A. Municipality of Prijedor. Though, in fact, on several occasions

1 I used my own car for that purpose, because the municipal car

2 was not available. So I used actually the car belonging to my

3 company. Later, the municipality compensated us for the use of

4 fuel. Since I was the municipal expert, they trusted me. They

5 could use my car and then they later compensated us for the fuel

6 and that was the compensation, because the agricultural station

7 is also part of the municipal services, so that we could agree

8 how to use this. In fact, even today we do not actually watch

9 which car belongs to which institution. The important thing is

10 that the task can be performed. Whenever we need, even now, to

11 go into the field, we borrow the car from the institution that

12 has a free car available.

13 Q. Let us go back to 1992 again. When you were on duty inspecting

14 houses, and if you used that car of the opstina of Prijedor or

15 your car of your company, were you doing that job altogether,

16 the whole commission, or were there mixed combination who would

17 inspect those houses?

18 A. No. We all went out in the full strength to each one of the

19 houses, and some commissions failed in the work because they

20 would not be complete. Three member commission always had to be

21 there in its full strength, to be on the spot and investigate

22 it, because we could not simply identify all those houses if we

23 did not have a list and others; and the commission had three

24 members, not two, and being the head of the commission, as a man

25 who worked in commissions for years, simply never allowed this

26 to happen. If all three of us could not go, then we would

27 simply postpone going out into the field and leave it for

28 another day.

1 Q. So if you travelled by that car, all three of you would be in

2 that car, would you not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was it possible for each of you to use that car without the

5 others knowing that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Filing your observations, your inspection to the community of

8 Prijedor, I take it that the community of Prijedor decided on

9 the allocation of houses; you had only an advisory function, did

10 you not?

11 A. We had a specific task and, as the head of this commission, we

12 simply to take the stock of the situation in the field and it

13 was up to them to set down the criteria for allocation, and I

14 was not involved in this and, after all, this was none of my

15 business.

16 The thing was to take stock of the situation in the

17 field, write a protocol, sign it and turn it over to the central

18 municipal commission who then proceeded further and that was the

19 end of our task. We were not interested in who would get the

20 house, who got the house, who got a house and who would be --

21 they were being issued decisions to this effect, but they were

22 all provisional.

23 Q. Mr. Usher, could you show this to the witness for

24 identification, please? I think that will be 68, as far as I am

25 informed. (Handed). Perhaps you could mark it as "A" because

26 I will also provide later on the English translation.

27 Mr. Dasic, this is a clean document. Have you ever

28 seen such a document before?

1 A. Here, I have seen this document, this, but this is not a

2 document that I had. I did not have it in my hands. I did not

3 work with it. This is a document that was issued, from what

4 I see here, for the use of housing, that is, of apartments

5 rather than houses, private houses, houses standing on their own

6 grounds or abandoned private property.

7 Q. Could it be the case, Mr. Dasic, that this kind of document

8 would have been used in town for apartments while you were using

9 another document for houses on the countryside?

10 A. We had a different document on the spot -- we called it the

11 protocol -- and its format was quite different, what we were

12 supposed to register, to take note of when we went out into the

13 field. The document which allocates abandoned property for use

14 to someone was quite different. This is a somewhat modified

15 document, I should say, of a somewhat more recent date.

16 Q. Would the substance of the document be comparable to the

17 documents you were using in your time?

18 A. I cannot hear very well.

19 Q. Would the substance of the document be the same as the documents

20 you were using in your time, the type of information contained

21 in that document?

22 A. The heading was similar, but the wording was quite different.

23 It said house cadastre, cadastre plot, what part of it,

24 auxiliary buildings, the size of plots of the property. This

25 here is a description of an apartment, of a flat, of a flat in

26 an apartment building, and ours had different wording, because

27 we were talking about property abandoned in countryside.

28 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dasic, when you were doing this work with your

1 commission on location, I take it that most of the time you were

2 visiting empty houses, were you not?

3 A. That is where we lost most of our time, and we -- as we went to

4 empty houses to see which one of them met the minimum conditions

5 so that some refugees could be accommodated there, so we would

6 take stock of what was there in that house, so that is whether

7 there was water, whether electricity was available, whether the

8 roof was leaking or not and things like that.

9 There were also houses which could be moved in, which

10 had been moved in, and so we also, of course, noted down who had

11 moved in, because the municipality had to issue certificates and

12 to rule whether those people who had already moved in could stay

13 in or that somebody else should go there. So we were to do that

14 to begin with, whether the house was abandoned, whether there

15 was a family, how many members and so on and so forth and,

16 secondly, whether that was a livable house.

17 Q. Would it make any difference for your work and advice you

18 drafted whether the house belonged to an individual or to the

19 State or to the community?

20 A. These were all private property, abandoned private property. It

21 was treated as abandoned properties since nobody lived there,

22 nobody was living there, and the State, that is the

23 municipality, was temporarily using it or, rather, allocating it

24 for other people for use, to refugees, to use them. It was the

25 decision of the government of the Republika Srpska to proclaim

26 it abandoned property, which was then given upon temporary

27 possession to refugees or of local person. I did not go into

28 that, I do not know. But, be that as it may, it was a private

1 property converted into State property and treated as State

2 property, that is, at the disposal of the State, of the State

3 authorities.

4 Q. You referred to "local persons", would it also be the case that

5 beside refugees also local persons who lost their house could be

6 allocated such an empty house? Local people who lost their

7 house because of the war or houses that were shelled in the area

8 and, therefore, people were looking for other houses, applying

9 to the government, to the local community, asking for another

10 house? Was that a part of your work too, to inspect houses for

11 that purpose?

12 A. I did not quite understand you.

13 Q. Inspecting empty houses for allocation to refugees, would that

14 also implicate inspection of houses to be allocated to persons

15 who lived in the local area but lost their houses because of the

16 war, not being a refugee?

17 A. We were to take the stock of the situation in the field and who

18 that house would be allocated, that was not within our province

19 as a commission. That was done by the central municipal

20 commission. I simply was not interested. As a man, as a man

21 who headed that commission, I was not interested in who they

22 would give it to, to a refugee or to a person from that area, to

23 a local individual or somebody who had come from Bihac or Jajce

24 or Travnik. I did not go into that because that was not in the

25 province of my work as the head of the commission or Dule Tadic

26 and the whole commission which did this.

27 Q. Am I right in thinking then that your commission had no power to

28 give away any house whatsoever because those decisions were

1 taken by the opstina Prijedor?

2 A. We had no powers to do that. Our signature did not mean

3 anything. Nobody could get a house on the strength of our

4 signature. It was the municipal commission, headed with the

5 President of the Executive Board of the commission, and the

6 President of the wartime staff of the headquarters of the

7 municipality of Prijedor, they had such powers. But, our

8 commission which went out into the field, we did not have such

9 powers and our signatures in that regard meant nothing, because

10 I was not to allocate houses to anyone or to have any criteria

11 of my own whom I should give them to. It was somebody else.

12 We simply took stock of the situation in the field and

13 then the commission knew who they were going to allocate it to.

14 They had some criteria on the basis of which they looked into

15 these cases and then allocated houses for temporary use for six

16 months or a year or perhaps three months or five months. There

17 were also such decisions, from what I know.

18 Q. Could you please talk a little bit slower? It is much easier

19 for the interpreters.

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Thank you. Am I right in thinking then that no one could just

22 by his own decision occupy an empty house; you needed the

23 permission of the opstina to do that?

24 A. People entered those houses on their own but, to make it legal,

25 they had to obtain the paper, a certificate, a decision, from

26 the municipal authorities or leave those houses so that they

27 could be allocated to somebody else. Of course, people entered

28 houses without asking anyone for permission, but some of them

1 had to leave again because those who enjoyed priority, they had

2 to be accommodated, and those who entered the house because they

3 wanted to, who usurped such houses, they had to leave. There

4 were such cases. He would see a house nearby and he would take

5 possession of it, move into it. But, of course, that was always

6 vacated and they had to leave and they could not stay in such

7 houses, and there were so many people who had to be

8 accommodated. There were children and they had to be put up

9 somewhere.

10 Q. In the former Yugoslavia, Mr. Dasic, was it not the system that,

11 for example, large companies or large entities like hospitals,

12 schools and those kinds of organisations had their own quota of

13 houses they could give to their employees to live in?

14 A. In the municipality of Prijedor State companies had in 95 per

15 cent of cases their flats, mostly flats in apartment buildings.

16 As far as for houses, only the Omarska iron ore mine or rather

17 the Ljubija mine, they had whole villages, settlements where

18 they invested and helped their workers, their employees to build

19 houses on their own grounds. At that time the municipality did

20 not allow anyone to dispose of that abandoned property, but the

21 municipality itself, they issued decisions and officially they

22 were the ones who disposed of that property. I do not know if

23 I was clear.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Wladimiroff, before you continue

25 with that line of questioning.

26 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I forgot the time, your Honour, indeed.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess and then we will

28 proceed in closed session. So the witness then is excused until

1 tomorrow at 10 a.m. We will then go into closed session.

2 (5.00 p.m.)

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