Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6528

1 Friday, 4th October 1996.

2 (10.00 a.m.)

3 (Open session)

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, I understand you will be recalling a

5 witness?

6 MR. KAY: We are dealing with the witness currently under direct

7 examination for Mr. Wladimiroff.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then you will be calling, who is it,

9 Mrs. Vlacina?

10 MR. KAY: Yes. She will be recalled after this witness, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Mr. Wladimiroff, would you like to

12 continue?

13 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour. I call again Mr. Dasic.

14 MR. TOMISLAV DASIC, recalled.

15 Examined by MR. WLADIMIROFF, continued.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Dasic, you understand that you are still

17 under oath, do you not?

18 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I understand.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, thank you. You may proceed,

20 Mr. Wladimiroff.

21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Dasic, when we stopped yesterday you were talking about the

23 ownership of houses by companies, for example, such as the

24 Omarska iron ore mine and apartments owned by the municipality

25 of Prijedor. Do you remember that?

26 A. Yes, I do. I do. I remember this.

27 Q. Right. You explained to us that these kinds of companies and

28 communities have their own houses and they use these houses for

Page 6529

1 their employees or civil servants, is that right?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. Would it make any difference for your committee doing your

4 inspections when you inspected a house that belonged to such a

5 community or such a company?

6 A. In my situation I did not have a chance to deal with such

7 flats. The houses were not owned by the municipality; they were

8 privately owned. There were farms, farmhouses, vacated by the

9 Muslims and even some Serbian houses were also vacated, and they

10 were recorded or not recorded as the case might have been for

11 new settlement. In my domain where I was working with my

12 commission, there were no apartments, no flats of the kind that

13 you are describing and we did not record those.

14 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you also told us that the commission

15 functioned in a period of 1st October up to 1st or 15th December

16 1992, is that right?

17 A. Right, right.

18 Q. That you sometimes worked for the whole day, even on Saturdays,

19 do you remember that?

20 A. Yes, I remember that and that was the way it was; much depending

21 on the weather and also on my free time. Many things which

22 I did not manage to do on Monday or Tuesday, I would work and do

23 on Saturday to make up for what I lost in the beginning of the

24 week and because the job had to be completed.

25 Q. You also told us that all three of you did the work together, is

26 that right?

27 A. Yes, yes, we were always together.

28 Q. At what time would you usually start to work in the morning, or

Page 6530

1 was that not in the morning?

2 A. Since Kozarac is some 18 kilometres away and the region where we

3 were recording the situation is about 18 kilometres from

4 Prijedor, so we would be leaving Prijedor around 8 o'clock, half

5 past 9, even half past 9 and 10.00. Since it was already late

6 autumn, before 8 o'clock in the morning it was very cold, and we

7 did not start before 8 o'clock ever. Sometimes we would be

8 starting from Prijedor at 8.00 or before 8.00, but we were in

9 there on the spot by half past 8 or 9 o'clock so that we could

10 actually start working. We would be already in front of a house

11 which was either vacated and empty or settled by somebody.

12 Q. Until what time would you continue to work?

13 A. Usually, as far as I remember, we would be working for three to

14 four hours, about 3 or 4 o'clock, sorry, so we would be ending

15 our daily work around 1500, 1600 hours. We tried to put in six

16 to seven hours of good, solid work every day.

17 Q. In that time you also lived in Prijedor, did you not?

18 A. Yes, yes, I lived in Prijedor all the time. I lived there and I

19 spent the nights at home.

20 Q. Do you know where Dusko Tadic lived in that period of time?

21 A. At that time he also lived in Prijedor and lived there and spent

22 the nights there because he would be returning, he would be

23 going to work with me, go to Kozarac. But he did not stay in

24 Kozarac; he returned with me to Prijedor in the same car and

25 actually we lived in the same district of the city. That was a

26 new settlement of Pecani. The same driver that drove us would

27 be leaving us, dropping us off, in front of our apartments and

28 that the distance was about 300 to 400 metres between the two

Page 6531

1 apartments.

2 Q. While you were driving around doing your job for this

3 commission, would you talk about politics with Dusko Tadic or

4 would you not?

5 A. Well, we probably did talk politics as well. At that time these

6 were topical events.

7 Q. Did Dusko Tadic express extreme nationalistic sentiments?

8 A. No, I never noticed that. I never felt that he was an extreme

9 nationalist. We were simply trying to think coolly about the

10 developments and events and I, in fact, liked that. I liked

11 somebody who was moderate, who was not extremist in any way and

12 who was not overheated, so to speak. But, as I told you, I had

13 not known him before. So as we talked, we got to know each

14 better. I liked when I worked with somebody to know who the

15 person is, what his thoughts are and so on. Although Dusko, in

16 fact, had every reason to be more extremist, but in the way he

17 lived, where he lived, did not affect him and he was very fair,

18 I would say correct in his attitudes and was very honest,

19 although he had been exposed to a real tragic development.

20 Q. Yourself, Mr. Dasic, were you politically involved? Were you a

21 member of a political party?

22 A. I did not quite understand the question.

23 Q. Yourself, Mr. Dasic, were you a member of a political party in

24 those days?

25 A. This is not my language. I do not understand. There might be

26 something wrong with the -- there is a confusion with the

27 languages now.

28 Q. I understand that you do not understand French!

Page 6532

1 A. I do not understand enough.

2 Q. What I was asking you, Mr. Dasic, is were you involved in

3 politics in those days? Were you a member of a political party

4 in those days?

5 A. At that time I was not involved in politics and I was not a

6 member of any political party.

7 Q. Thank you. Did Dusko Tadic have a car?

8 A. I do not remember. I do not think he did. I do not think he

9 did, because he would have been using it when we actually badly

10 needed a car and could not get one, but I cannot tell you

11 precisely.

12 Q. Right. That is all I ask, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Tieger?

14 Cross-Examined by MR. TIEGER

15 Q. Mr. Dasic, you just indicated that at the time in, I guess, the

16 autumn of 1992 you were not a member of any political party.

17 Were you a member of any political party before that?

18 A. Yes, yes, I was. For 28 years I was a member of the Communist

19 Party, Tito's Party. For 28 years I was a member of that Party.

20 Q. You indicated that you became the director of the Prijedor

21 agricultural service as soon as the war began. Was there a

22 director of the service before that?

23 A. I actually was appointed about a month before the outbreak of

24 the war. Before that there had been other directors, both

25 Croats and Serbs, but we never had a Muslim in the position of a

26 director in the agricultural station or agricultural applied

27 service, because this was half an institute, half an

28 experimental farm. We were in charge of promoting and

Page 6533

1 advancing, improving agricultural service. So this was an

2 extension service in agriculture.

3 We worked with hybrid, development of new hybrids,

4 vegetables, fruits, cattle and stock raising. That was our job

5 and we were a specialised service to help the local farmers.

6 Unlike the Institute who would be working not with the farmers

7 but rather with state-owned farms, big farms, we were working

8 with individual private farmers, helping them conducting their

9 work. We organised seminars for them in the winter, in the

10 spring, sowing service. We had various specialists for

11 different parts of agriculture and that was our main activity.

12 We also, as I said already, had our own experimental

13 farm to test and develop new species and new varieties of corn,

14 of maize, wheat. We had pilot farms for milk cows and fattening

15 of calves. So these were the main activities of our agriculture

16 station. Before that, we were part of the Banja Luka

17 Institute. This was a big agricultural estate covering some 26

18 municipalities. I hope that that explains what I was doing.

19 Q. The question was actually whether or not there was a director

20 before you. Let me ask you, who was the director whom you

21 replaced? What was his name?

22 A. It was Milan Pribicevic, a Serb like myself, so there was no

23 change of nationality in that sense.

24 Q. Yesterday you indicated that you were aware of the takeover in

25 Prijedor and you were also asked about the outbreak of the

26 conflict in Kozarac. I believe you indicated that the alleged

27 killing of a soldier who was in a JNA uniform in Jakupovici was

28 one of the direct causes which led to disagreement between the

Page 6534

1 Serbs and Muslims. This disagreement between the Serbs and the

2 Muslims that was caused or triggered by the incident with the

3 soldier, this was the attack on Kozarac, correct?

4 A. One of the -- well, that was about a month and a half later,

5 after the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that something was

6 in the air, something was wrong. The situation was tense, there

7 was uncertainty, and we who were, who knew the situation a

8 little bit better, who followed the events, we knew that

9 something will act as a spark, and that spark was the killing of

10 that soldier. That was on the way to Kozarac at some kind of

11 division line between the Serbian and Muslim, Muslim

12 communities. That was between Banja Luka and Prijedor,

13 Jakupovici.

14 That, as far as I know, was, in fact, one event that

15 triggered the attack - the conflicts between the Serbs and the

16 Muslims. Who attacked whom, whether Muslims attacked the Serbs,

17 Serbs the Muslims, I honestly do not know because I was not

18 there at that time and I could not -- this was not part of my

19 job. I was not that much interested. What I was mainly

20 concerned with was actually simply doing my work and I felt a

21 bit under pressure as a person living in the area.

22 In my view, this was just one sparkle, but the whole

23 thing was hanging in the air and, in fact, it does not matter

24 who started and who killed whom, this was just one case because

25 living in Prijedor we learned that the situation became more and

26 more tense, that the tank was attacked, that a soldier was

27 killed, a local boy. Now, that was what happened. But that was

28 not the day that Kozarac was attacked. Kozarac was attacked,

Page 6535

1 Kozarac was actually attacked two days later on Friday, that was

2 on Friday. Then we had Saturday and actually on Sunday the

3 fighting between Muslims and Serbs broke out between Kozarac and

4 Omarska in that part of the line, along the line dividing the

5 Muslim and Serbian villages. Was that clear enough?

6 Q. By the time you were working in the area as part of the

7 commission, the area of Kozarac had been, essentially, entirely

8 cleansed of the Muslim community, correct?

9 A. Not quite, not quite at that time. There was still some Muslims

10 but not in Kozarac itself but, rather, in some villages towards

11 Trnopolje. That was according to my information and according

12 to my knowledge from the field. This was not 100 per cent

13 cleansed. The cadastral municipality of Kozarac was not fully

14 cleansed at that time. We are talking now about in September,

15 October, November, there were still some Muslim people living in

16 the cadastral municipality of Kozarac because Kozarac, as a

17 cadastral municipality, is much larger, while the town itself of

18 Kozarac had no Muslims left in Kozarac itself.

19 Q. You have explained to us much of the structure and work of the

20 agricultural station. How many people worked for you as

21 director of the agricultural service? How many people were you

22 responsible for?

23 A. I was responsible for 12 people altogether. At the moment

24 I have seven people only because our scope of activities was

25 somewhat reduced during the wartime, but also I have people who

26 work seasonally because we have our own production, we have the

27 experimental farm. So, in fact, we need to take more workers

28 when the season is in full swing. This is now an intermunicipal

Page 6536

1 service. We have more engineers, Masters of science and so on.

2 But the station never had more than 12 to 13 people permanently

3 employed. It never had more. At the moment we have only

4 seven. I was responsible for -- the largest number that I was

5 responsible for was 12 people during my rule, if I may put it

6 this way.

7 Q. I understood that you were, from what you testified yesterday,

8 extremely busy even before your appointment as director. I

9 presume those responsibilities and duties only increased after

10 your appointment as director?

11 A. Yes, I would say, I do work a great deal and I work hard. At

12 the same time, I am also a professional collaborator. I am a

13 court expert. I have my own farm also. So I was working on

14 several fronts and never had much time. When, of course,

15 I became the director, that was just another obligation, and in

16 the state of war it was all the more difficult, so that when

17 I had to leave in the morning, I had to do many of the things in

18 my office, my regular routine work, and then I left for the

19 field.

20 I was not very enthusiastic about being on that

21 commission, but that was a necessity. There was nobody else to

22 do that. Also, I had been living in this part. I knew all the

23 villages and I knew Muslims, Croats and Serbs in the area

24 between Kozarac and Grmec, and I knew how to approach them, how

25 to talk to them. I never had any difficulty contacting people

26 and establishing good relations with them to complete the kind

27 of work which I started to do.

28 I had no prejudice and I was doing my best.

Page 6537

1 I approached everybody openly, frankly, working in my domain.

2 I never touched upon matters which do not concern me. I only

3 deal with professional matters and that was all. So that, as a

4 man, as a human being, I never tried to be superficial in my

5 approach to work. I invested all of my energies into my duties

6 and I could come to any farmer, to any house owner. I could

7 look him in the eye and do my job fairly and I never ha problems

8 with people -- at least not until now.

9 Q. So the essential task of the commission was to go through the

10 areas you spoke of and determine whether or not any of the homes

11 or habitations were still livable, is that correct?

12 A. That was the principal task of the commission. That was our

13 assignment, to establish how many houses were still habitable so

14 as to accommodate, so as to house, the refugees; whether they

15 met conditions, that is, whether the water supply was all right,

16 electricity, whether these houses were furbished, if somebody

17 had already moved in, then to establish who had moved in, how

18 many members of the family. We had also cadastral data, who was

19 the owner, the area or plots of land, and those were our

20 principal tasks, or if a person had moved in, why had he done

21 so.

22 I never went into who was supposed to get a particular

23 house. We were simply to go out, make a record, take stock of

24 this, write down the protocol, turn it over to the central

25 commission and that would be that. Of course, sign the

26 protocol, all three members of the commission, but that was

27 that. As I have said, we issued no decisions, no ordinances nor

28 thing. We never issued any decisions, I mean, valid decisions

Page 6538

1 that somebody would be entitled to use a particular house for

2 half a year or for a year or something. Ours was simply to go

3 out into the field, take stock of the situation, make a record

4 of this and then submit it to the central commission. That was

5 our principal assignment.

6 Q. You were part, therefore, of this process of going to private

7 residences and determining whether they were habitable and then

8 providing that information to the authorities of Republika

9 Srpska so that it could be proclaimed as State property?

10 A. I did not really get your question. I did not understand well

11 your question.

12 Q. Sure. The farms and homes which you surveyed were privately

13 owned, correct?

14 A. Yes, privately owned, yes. Yes. They were all private

15 property.

16 Q. OK. Those were homes in the area of Kozarac, Kamicani,

17 Kozarusa?

18 A. Yes, there were houses in that area, and they -- those were

19 Muslims mostly. They were mostly Muslim houses, that is, houses

20 abandoned by their Muslim owners and they were treated as

21 abandoned, as vacated houses but with private owners.

22 Q. Many of the homes in that area were no longer habitable. They

23 had been destroyed during the conflict, correct?

24 A. There were some which were destroyed and some of them were

25 looted. Of course, in combat operations quite a number of them

26 were destroyed, shall we say, about 40 per cent were not

27 habitable, which did not meet criteria, either because they had

28 been destroyed or looted, plundered or set fire to. But

Page 6539

1 sometimes owners (and there were such instances), when the owner

2 was leaving the house who thought he had to leave the house, he

3 would put it on fire himself, so that there is no some general

4 law, I mean, applicable to all situations and say, "This was so

5 and so and so and so". No, there were all sorts of things and

6 sometimes owners simply torched their own houses themselves.

7 I mean, if his mind was set to go, then rather than leave it to

8 somebody else, he would simply put it on fire. There were such

9 cases. But it was 60 per cent of the houses were habitable, of

10 those houses which we surveyed and during my time on the

11 commission.

12 Q. Did you happen to be on the main street of Kozarac during the

13 time you were conducting your work?

14 A. Did I happen -- what?

15 Q. Were you in central Kozarac and on the main street, Marsala

16 Tita, at some point?

17 A. Well, I used to pass those streets. That was the High Street in

18 Kozarac.

19 Q. Did you notice that Dusko Tadic's home had written on it,

20 "Serbian house, do not touch"?

21 A. There was such an inscription, yes, "Serb house, do not touch"

22 on some houses, but there were no people in them. We went into

23 those houses. We did survey them. There would be no one in

24 them, but they did have this graffiti, "Serb house, do not

25 touch", and we would go in and then make a record of what was

26 there and turn it over to the municipal commission. I mean, a

27 person or the owner might have written that and left, and some

28 people also appropriated the right and appropriated two or three

Page 6540

1 houses, that is, misappropriated the right and appropriated two

2 or three houses prior to this commission, because there was a

3 general disarray. There were no authorities, no real power. It

4 was wartime so that it was -- so that some people simply tried

5 to profit from the situation.

6 You know what I mean? When an atomic bomb drops and

7 it is a mess all over. It is very difficult really for one to

8 decide what is the wisest thing to do, and it is very easy to

9 have -- to be clever, to be wise after the event. We were

10 simply caught there unawares. Complete and overall chaos

11 reigned there and even people who were known to be very poised

12 persons panicked at the time because we -- nobody, nobody

13 thought that after 50 years of normal life we would again come

14 to experience this.

15 There were very few people remembering that vast, long

16 time ago. Most of us lived normally; only those who were

17 preparing all this and preparing the ground for all this knew

18 about this. All the rest of us were shocked by it. It was a

19 very difficult moment for us. It was very difficult to decide

20 what to do, while women, children, what to do with them. Some

21 people said one thing, other people said some other thing. It

22 was really difficult to know what was the best to do or what was

23 one supposed to do, how to go about all these things.

24 Some people may say that they did know what would

25 happen, but I did not know. Had I known it, I would have slept

26 well, but as it was, I did not know about this so that I was

27 really caught unawares and very many -- and there were too many

28 things in all, too many things vague, too many moot points, moot

Page 6541

1 questions, something that one could not read even -- find in

2 books and for normal people it was a shock. I really could not

3 wish it on anybody.

4 Q. At the time you were examining these private homes and

5 determining which were habitable, they were still privately

6 owned and still the property of their rightful owners? Once you

7 determined that a home was habitable, you provided that

8 information to the authorities of Republika Srpska, is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, these were houses which the municipality took for temporary

11 use. It proclaimed them its property, and it was allocated to

12 people not for ever, but only for use for three, six or 12

13 months -- at least at the time when I was part of the process.

14 We would go out, make a, take stock of the situation, then turn

15 over, turn over this to the commission and then they granted

16 leases or permits for three, six or 12 months, but nobody got

17 such houses for permanent use.

18 I mean, nobody could come and say: "I have left

19 another municipality and another house somewhere, so I am taking

20 up this house". No, no permanent ownership rights. You could

21 get a house for use for three, six or 12 months and you had to

22 sign the protocol saying that you have taken up this house and

23 when you were going out again.

24 Q. Do you know how much compensation was provided to the Muslim

25 owners when their property was appropriated by Republika Srpska?

26 A. No compensation was paid, as far as I know, neither in cash nor

27 in property, nor anything.

28 Q. You have indicated that at the time there were people who needed

Page 6542

1 residences; there were more people who needed residences than

2 there were residences available. Was there a priority system

3 developed for who would receive those homes, flats or apartments

4 which were available?

5 A. This is something that was not within my province. This is the

6 central commission of the municipality which they did. They had

7 some criteria. They had a set of priorities on the basis of

8 which they ruled. I really do not know what they were.

9 Q. But you are ----

10 A. I guess the number of children, how many members in a family.

11 I would not really know, but it would be my guess that that was

12 one of the conditions, one of the priorities, I would say.

13 Although, of course, sometimes, as we are want to do, sometimes

14 we give to somebody who is least needy and those who are more in

15 need are not given something. Those are those who go outside

16 priorities, but otherwise ----

17 Q. You were aware that service during the war, during the conflict,

18 was one of the priorities or one of the factors that gave a

19 person a priority?

20 A. Well, it is rather likely, yes, I guess they would have some

21 priority there. There must have been instances of that kind, or

22 a child who is closer to his mother, of course, will be breast

23 fed before the child who is further away from his mother. So

24 I think that some were given the houses even though they were

25 not really entitled to on the basis of some other priorities.

26 Some may have been given a bigger house or given a house sooner

27 simply because they were closer to authorities. I mean, these

28 things do happen.

Page 6543

1 Q. That is all I have. Thank you.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff?

3 Re-examined by MR. WLADIMIROFF

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Just one question, your Honour.

5 Q. I have just one question. Mr. Dasic, you told us yesterday that

6 your commission covered the area of the cadastral municipality

7 of Kozarac. You explained that your commission WAS working in

8 Kozarac, a part of Trnopolje called Hrnici, Kozarusa, Kamicani

9 and a part of Dera and a part of Bozici, is that right?

10 A. Yes, it is. That was the area covered by my commission, except

11 that we did not finish all the work because the weather changed,

12 the conditions became more difficult, and at 1st January the

13 commission stopped working and I stopped heading the commission.

14 Q. I understand that. Was Dusko Tadic visiting Trnopolje camp with

15 you whilst you were working with him on the commission?

16 A. At that time Dusko Tadic was not in the Trnopolje camp. He was

17 on the commission with me.

18 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you. That is all I ask, your Honour.


20 MR. TIEGER: May I have a moment, your Honour? No, nothing further,

21 your Honour.

22 Examined by the Court

23 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, were there any records kept of the time, the

24 times, rather, I suppose, each day when you were engaged on work

25 of the commission, written records?

26 A. There is a written record at the Prijedor municipality, except

27 that I did not have the possibility -- I did not see that

28 decision. There is an official decision saying that I am the

Page 6544

1 head of the commission, what am I supposed to do, what is my

2 assignment and things like that.

3 Q. No, I do not mean that, but were there daily records kept of the

4 hours when you and your two other members of the commission were

5 out in the field doing the work you have described?

6 A. Officially, no, but I kept my own record book, that is, I had my

7 log book and then I noted that down, but had somebody -- did

8 somebody else have such a record, no. It was simply a question

9 of trust; that the commission would pick out the time which was

10 most suitable. Whether we would work for three hours or for

11 five hours or 10 hours, it depended on various things. It could

12 depend on the head of the commission. In this particular case,

13 it depended on me really, whether I would go out at 7 o'clock in

14 the morning and stay until there was daylight. It really

15 depended on a number of objective and subjective things and on

16 the men who headed the commission, at least that is the

17 tradition in that area, that a man who is put in charge of

18 something is really responsible and he decides about these

19 things, whether we would stay out for longer, for longer hours

20 or whether we would work shorter hours but harder. It really

21 depended on whether a car was available, on my free time, on

22 weather conditions and so on and so forth. Sometimes we went

23 out later and returned later, sometimes we went out earlier and

24 so on.

25 Q. What I am concerned with is whether you have still in your

26 possession your log book, do you?

27 A. I have to look for it. I do have it. I do have it somewhere.

28 When I was about to leave to come here, I tried to find it and

Page 6545

1 I did not. After all, it was 1992. I am really sorry but

2 I must have it somewhere. It was my personal diary. So that

3 I will have to continue looking for it and I will try to send it

4 to show you that we really went out into the field, at what time

5 we set out and at what time we returned, if there was something

6 specific which I noted down just for my own sake.

7 I have been a field worker for ages and I always kept

8 a kind of diary, and I do not remember names of people, but I do

9 remember other things. I am not going to say that I am a good

10 agronomist, but I think I am fairly knowledgeable about that

11 particular area of work.

12 Q. The next question I wanted to ask you was, do you know whether

13 there would have been a record kept somewhere of the use of this

14 car when it was driven by the driver? Would he keep a record

15 and would that be maintained in some central office in Prijedor?

16 A. Professional municipal drivers, they must have their travel

17 order and they must, of course, note down when they set out into

18 the field, when they returned and, of course, their fuel

19 consumption. I do not have this, but these records can be

20 traced because the drivers, they of course have to do that

21 because they are official cars, official vehicles or, rather,

22 municipal, so they have to put it down, the time they leave, the

23 time of departure, the time of return and things of that, the

24 fuel and everything else, except that we since if we used

25 private cars, then of course we did not do that or we did it for

26 our own sake. But when I used the official vehicle of the

27 agricultural station, then of course I needed a travel order

28 always, time of departure, time of return, fuel consumption and

Page 6546

1 everything else. You had to put it down to justify your costs

2 and all these things.

3 Q. Those records would still be maintained somewhere in the opstina

4 I suppose, would they?

5 A. Yes, oh, yes, one would be able to trace them. It must be in

6 existence somewhere because it is not -- it was not so long ago,

7 and so these documents are kept for 10 years at least under our

8 old laws. I do not know how it is now.

9 Q. The next question on a quite different topic: when Mr. Tadic

10 accompanied you, as a member of the commission, on these

11 journeys, what was he wearing? Was he wearing a uniform or was

12 he wearing ordinary civilian clothes?

13 A. Mr. Tadic did not ask for me to be appointed to the commission.

14 The commission was appointed by the Executive Board of the

15 municipality ----

16 Q. No.

17 A. --- of the Municipal Assembly.

18 Q. No, you misunderstand my question. I am simply asking, when he

19 did accompany you what clothes did he wear? Did he wear a

20 uniform or did he wear civilian clothes?

21 A. We all wore or, rather, tried to wear uniforms because it was

22 safer for field work. I was also in a uniform. It was also

23 fashionable in a way, whoever could lay his hands on a uniform.

24 I mean, he felt and was more privileged, but I know that my

25 uniform was poorer and Tadic's was better. But, in any event,

26 I was not particularly keen on uniform, but I still wanted to

27 have it because the situation was really not under control. It

28 was easier to approach people or talk to people. When you would

Page 6547

1 be in civilian clothes, then it could appear as if you were

2 looking for something again privately for your own sake and,

3 therefore, it was better.

4 So I tried to combine things. I could not really lay

5 my hands on a whole uniform, but I tried to combine. I did not

6 have footwear which belonged to it, but our geodesic, she did

7 not have uniform, she had civilian clothes, and Tadic and I were

8 in uniforms and it was really advisable.

9 Q. Do you remember what sort of uniform Mr. Tadic wore? We have

10 heard of camouflage uniforms, we have heard of SMB uniforms.

11 Which was he wearing or did he wear different uniforms at

12 different times, and police uniforms also we have heard of?

13 A. As far as I can remember, as far as I can remember, Mr. Tadic

14 had a multi-coloured, what we called a camouflage uniform, not

15 the SMB of the old Yugoslavia. Those were worn by ordinary

16 soldiers, by simple soldiers, who had no money to buy something

17 else, a camouflage uniform. But we tried to somehow come by

18 those new uniforms to look slightly better, to look like

19 civilised soldiers, or whichever way you care to put it,

20 although it was difficult to be that.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: Good. Thank you.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just a few questions. What colour was the

23 camouflage uniform? Is it a multi-colour, brown, green, light

24 brown, dark brown, coffee colour?

25 A. You know, I am slightly handicapped. I really do not recall

26 colours when they are not in front of my eyes. I know it was

27 many colours, whichever colours were worn at the time. I really

28 could not -- I am simply unable to describe what colour a person

Page 6548

1 was wearing at a particular time. I never can do that.

2 Q. That is OK. If homes were taken from individuals in Kozarac,

3 taken from them, prior to October 1st 1992, I gather your

4 commission would not have been involved in that because the

5 commission did not exist, am I correct?

6 A. Yes. Mr. Tadic told me (and I was also aware of the fact) that

7 there had been two commissions before me whose assignment was

8 also to survey all this property which we then started doing,

9 but of course they failed. When our commission was established,

10 we knew that we would succeed because the three men appointed to

11 it were all very serious, very thorough and we would really do

12 good work, and Mr. Tadic when we met, because he also did not

13 know me really, he said: "I will congratulate you if you

14 succeed" and I told him: "Just you listen what this seasoned

15 man will tell you and we shall succeed certainly", because one

16 has to know how to work in a village. You have to know how to

17 approach a villager, and if you have shown him that you are

18 honest, that you are decent, then you cannot fail, and there is

19 no distinction between rich and poor.

20 You have to know how to approach it, and I have been

21 working with villagers for years. So I knew how to approach a

22 man, how to talk to people, how serious, what kind of a

23 language, when to accept a cup of coffee from him or when not to

24 accept it and that was my personal experience. For instance,

25 I never allowed the commission to accept a cup of coffee in a

26 house because then it would meaning sitting down and that would

27 be that. So I never allowed such -- these kinds of things.

28 Q. Do you know what commissions Mr. Tadic was talking about, the

Page 6549

1 two commissions that existed before October 1st, for the

2 reassignment or whatever of houses?

3 A. There were similar to ours, except that they had no agronomists

4 on these commissions. They were commissions which were composed

5 of inexperienced people, mostly young, some girls who were

6 either lawyers or, for instance, geodesics, surveyors. But they

7 simply were not up to the task. I never really went into it.

8 I did not want to. I did not particularly care to learn who

9 were people were on these commissions. But, as far as I know,

10 they were all rather inexperienced and that is why they did not

11 succeed in completing the business.

12 Q. Do you know why Mr. Tadic was assigned to this commission? You

13 have testified about your long and good experience. Was the

14 other member of the commission a woman, but a woman who had this

15 agronomist experience? If not agronomist, it was -- what was

16 the experience of the other member of the commission, the

17 woman? She was not a lawyer, I gather?

18 A. She was, no, she was not a lawyer. She was not a lawyer. She

19 was a land surveyor. She carried those cadastral instruments

20 and worked for the cadastral office, for the cadastre. She

21 could identify every house. She knew owners because she had

22 those cadastre books. She was a very serious professional. She

23 knew how to take, where to take us. She knew where everything

24 was and that is this field experience which is of tremendous

25 importance when you go out into the field. When you have a

26 dilettante who does not know anything, who does not know whose

27 house is where, what is the cadastral municipality -- the

28 cadastral area or the books or who is the owner of a particular

Page 6550

1 house, and she had that kind of experience. She knew that.

2 This little Gordana Sobot whom we called "Goca". She has been

3 with the cadastre office for some 20 years.

4 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Tadic had any prior experience in this

5 type of work?

6 A. I could not tell you that, but at that time since it was being

7 done at the Local Commune where Mr. Tadic was in a way the head

8 of that Local Commune, that is, I think, how he came to be

9 appointed to the commission because it was his Local Commune.

10 Whether he had any kind of experience in this kind of work,

11 I really could not tell you. He was a third member of the

12 commission, and the two of us were the main members. We were

13 the ones who conducted the whole business, but it was simply to

14 have a local person because we were working in that area so we

15 needed a person from that area to be with us.

16 Q. Can you make an estimate as to how many homes you handled, that

17 is, how many homes were transferred, if I may use that

18 expression? I just do not know what other expression to use,

19 but how many homes were given to families or individuals by the

20 Republika Srspka by your commission?

21 A. At that time while we still worked, over 90 houses had already

22 been surveyed and were being moved -- and some of them were

23 being moved in, because as we went over them and we were -- at

24 my initiative, we would start one day from one end and the next

25 day from the other, because there were people who were trying to

26 misappropriate these things. There were some tractors

27 transporting furniture. There were all sorts of things.

28 I mean, the people really thought that they could take away

Page 6551

1 things that were not theirs because the situation was so

2 chaotic.

3 So we thought -- I thought it would be better if we

4 always started from a different part of the area, from either

5 [redacted] or Kozarac or something. But I think that about 90

6 per cent were by that time issued these decisions and could move

7 in and for others the decisions were pending. I know that many

8 people were satisfied with the work of the commission because we

9 had done a good job of work in some 10 or 15 days already. So

10 that protocols were made and so that decisions were beginning to

11 be issued, and what they would be given for use, what they had

12 to look after, because if they were to move out of that

13 particular house after three or six months, they also had to

14 have an inspection to see whether the house was as it was when

15 they had moved in. I believe that had we had another month at

16 our disposable that the situation would have been quite clear

17 but, unfortunately, the weather conditions were such that we had

18 to interrupt.

19 But, as far as I can remember, it was more than 150

20 houses that we surveyed during that time. As I said, I cannot

21 find the diary, that log book, that I had there. I had the

22 exact number. Whether it was 170 or 155, I do not know, but it

23 must have been over 150 homes. Over 90, as we were going on

24 with our work, 90 of those were already being moved in, that is,

25 decisions had been issued for them.

26 Q. So you surveyed 150, approximately, and of the 150, 90 had

27 already been surveyed and approved as being subject to

28 occupation?

Page 6552

1 A. About 90, yes, about 90, yes, had already been distributed.

2 Q. So am I correct then that it was 60, approximately, houses that

3 you surveyed and of that number you determined, well, you

4 surveyed 150 but 90 of them had already been surveyed, but you

5 did beginning work on the remaining and then made a decision as

6 to whether they were habitable and then subject to being

7 assigned to someone, is that correct? Is that the number?

8 A. I hope you understand me about the 150 houses we surveyed, and

9 some of these 150 had been settled on the basis of our own

10 protocols, of the protocols issued by my commission. So between

11 90 and 150, some 60 houses had no documents yet. Later, these

12 were also given special approvals for settlement for some

13 people. But when that was done, how it was done, to whom it was

14 given, I do not know. After 1st January 1993, I had nothing to

15 do with any of such commissions so I cannot tell you what

16 happened later and I was too busy at that time.

17 Q. Who made the decision then to make the actual assignment after

18 you made a determination of suitability?

19 A. There was a central commission of the cadastral property service

20 and they were the ones who were entitled, who were authorised,

21 who had the criteria, as to the distribution and allocation of

22 these houses. This was not part of our brief. Whatever we did

23 would be nothing. It would be not legally valid. We could only

24 provide protocols of the suitability and habitability, but they

25 decided whether this, that or the other person would be given

26 that house because they were empowered to do that by the

27 Assembly of the municipality of Prijedor. They had a special

28 rubber stamp and that was the central commission for the whole

Page 6553

1 of the municipality; so to get that was a legal document really.

2 Q. So that was the group you testified about yesterday, they made

3 the final decision, is that correct? I think you testified

4 yesterday that it was.

5 A. Yes, right, right.

6 Q. What was the name of that organisation, do you know, or the

7 authorities?

8 A. That was the cadastral property ownership service for the

9 municipality of Prijedor.

10 Q. You then would not know who was actually given the houses that

11 you surveyed?

12 A. In my area, some 90 per cent of the houses were given to

13 refugees from Cazin, Krupa, from Bihac, Bugojno, Travnik, mostly

14 refugees, because when I was thinking professionally this was

15 good land, good for intensive farming and these people, in fact,

16 needed my help, professional help, because they came from higher

17 altitudes, used to different kinds of farming. So they would

18 have to learn to farm in this new area with new kinds of

19 products, produce, and in fact that is how I viewed the whole

20 situation.

21 That is why I professionally and privately was

22 interested in who was getting this, not the names, but all kinds

23 of people were settling there. In 90 per cent of those new

24 settlers came from these places that I mentioned. Many of them

25 are still there now and they do have a problem to adjust to new

26 technology, to a new climate, to new sort of soil, because they

27 were used to be working and living at altitudes of 1500 metres,

28 while we are now talking about the altitude of 200 metres. So

Page 6554

1 there are different varieties, different kinds of plants grow

2 there, and this is my own observation now that these people need

3 a lot of help.

4 Q. Do you know how many of those people were Muslims?

5 A. You mean those who settled, who are settled there?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. Those who were given these houses, the use of the houses?

8 I know that there are many mixed marriages, but not Muslims as

9 such, those who have been coming from Cazin, but I know there

10 were some members who were Muslim perhaps in mixed marriages.

11 Maybe a husband was a Muslim or the wife was -- the wife Serb

12 and so on. There were some mixed marriages. Two cases, I know,

13 two Muslims had Serbian wives, for instance. They themselves

14 served in the army of Republika Srpska and so they came to live

15 there. These are the two cases I know, but there are many other

16 mixed marriages, people coming from the regions that I described

17 earlier and settled here in Kozarac -- in and around Kozarac.

18 Q. One final question: you testified you felt that Mr. Tadic had

19 every reason to have extremist views. What did you mean by

20 that? You said he never expressed any extremist views to you,

21 but he had every reason to have them. Why did you say that?

22 A. Well, since following the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

23 within a month and a half following that recognition, the times

24 were very difficult, very hard. There was a lot of intolerance,

25 hatred, something that one can hardly imagine could happen. I

26 do not know what their behaviour was like, and what happened

27 during the clashes in and around Kozarac.

28 I thought that he must have felt the tension.

Page 6555

1 Although I know that people in Kozarac lived together in peace

2 and quiet, I would be coming earlier to Kozarac, to Omarska and

3 so on, and I would be eating, drinking with them, socialising

4 with them and they were living together. But within a month and

5 a half after the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it became

6 quite tense. People were insulting each other. There were many

7 abnormal forms of behaviour, insulting each other, as I said

8 earlier. You could not even go into a pub or a cafe because you

9 never knew who would tell you what and say to you what. So that

10 is what I had in mind.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Wladimiroff?

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Nothing arises, your Honour, thank you.


14 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Dasic, would you continue to look for those

16 records, please, and if you are able to find them would you

17 please provide them to Mr. Wladimiroff so that he can provide

18 them to the Trial Chamber?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I will. I promise that I will do my best to try

20 to find my diary and send it to you. These are my private

21 documents. You will return them to me, of course? There is

22 nothing there that could be used against me.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, and that really was not our intent.

24 I accept what you say about the hours. I have no reason not to

25 accept what you said personally. One final question: what kind

26 of car was the official car that you used?

27 A. This was a Golf, a Lada and Renault 4 and Stojadin, the Yugoslav

28 make car. We had four different types of cars there. My

Page 6556

1 company had a Stojadin and Renault 4 and the municipality had a

2 Golf and Lada. These were the four kinds of cars that we used

3 for our field trips.

4 I told you that I use also the car from my own company

5 for that purpose occasionally, while the municipality had a Golf

6 and a Lada. In my company, we had a Stojadin which was Zastava

7 101 and Renault 4. So we had four kinds of cars that we used

8 for our field trips.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much. Mr. Wladimiroff?

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour. I was just on my feet to tell

11 you that we already asked for that log book.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I got the impression you did because he said he

13 had tried to look for it.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Right. So far he was not successful, but we will

15 assist him to look for it again. We checked with the

16 municipality for all the records, but we were not successful.

17 We did exactly the same for what Judge Stephen was asking for.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. Mr. Tieger, additional

19 questions? No. Is there any objection then to Mr. Dasic being

20 permanently excused, Mr. Tieger?

21 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, there is.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Dasic, you should make yourself available.

23 You are free to go home, but you may be recalled as a witness

24 before the Tribunal. So keep in touch with Mr. Wladimiroff and

25 if you are recalled, then we will ask that you come again. Will

26 you do that?

27 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course. There will be no problem. I will do

28 my best ----

Page 6557

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much.

2 THE WITNESS: --- I will do everything.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you for coming.

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you and thank you for listening to me.

5 (The witness withdrew)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff or Mr. Kay, would you call your

7 next witness?

8 MR. KAY: Your Honour, it was Nada Vlacina who was to be recalled for

9 Mr. Tieger to cross-examine.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The usher realises that he should bring in

11 Mrs. Vlacina?

12 MRS. NADA VLACINA, recalled.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, Defence Exhibit 68A has not

14 been admitted. Did you intend to offer that?

15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour. We are not going to tender it.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence 61 which was the video that was taken

17 of certain areas of Trnopolje some days ago. It was used and

18 that has not been admitted. Did you intend to offer that?

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour, we want to tender that.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to the video, if you

21 remember? You can think about it and tell us after the recess,

22 please. We will finish with Mrs. Vlacina.

23 Mrs. Vlacina, you understand that you are still under

24 oath, the oath that you took yesterday, to tell the truth? Do

25 you understand that?

26 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes, I understand.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

28 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

Page 6558

1 Cross-examined by MR. TIEGER

2 Q. Mrs. Vlacina, yesterday we briefly discussed your husband's

3 occupation. You indicated that he stopped working just before

4 the war. When the war began, your husband became part of the

5 Serbian Army?

6 A. The first working day was Friday, 22nd May 1992.

7 Q. He was a tank Commander?

8 A. I do not know. I do not know. My husband had some health

9 problems before that, and during the whole of this time he was

10 in Prijedor and only in 1994, in April, he was taken to the

11 front. Before that he had to be in Prijedor and was under work

12 obligation. That was, that was from April '92 -- from April '93

13 to April '94.

14 Q. Initially, however, he was involved in the conflict in Kozarac,

15 is that correct?

16 A. No, no, I do not know that.

17 Q. So you do not know ----

18 A. I know that he was at home. Every day and every night he spent

19 at home.

20 Q. You do not know where he was stationed during the day?

21 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I think the witness just said that her husband

22 was at home every day and every night he spent at home which

23 rather implies ----

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am somewhat confused about the testimony, the

25 dates, etc. But ask the question again, Mr. Tieger, without

26 characterising her prior testimony.

27 MR. TIEGER: After your husband began serving on Friday, did he

28 simply remain at home or did he have duties during the day?

Page 6559

1 A. On Friday? Which Friday do you mean? What kind of -- you mean

2 on his job or in his company?

3 Q. Did your husband begin serving with the Serbian Army on Friday,

4 May 22nd?

5 A. No, no. On Friday, 22nd May, he was on his job and around

6 4 o'clock he called me by a phone. He did not have the

7 telephone. He called our neighbours and he said: "Do not

8 worry, the roads are blocked. We cannot go via Kozarac, so

9 I will take some side roads, take a bus and come home a bit

10 later". So he came home around 5 o'clock, I think, half past

11 5. So on that day he was on his job.

12 Q. At some point did he begin serving with the Serbian Army?

13 A. Yes, later.

14 Q. When did he first begin serving with the Serbian army?

15 A. Officially in April '94, because that was the time when he was

16 mobilized. He put on the uniform and went to the battle front

17 in Gradacac. You see, when the war came, when it started in

18 Croatia, my husband did not go to the battle front in Croatia,

19 and after that he had some health problems, very serious

20 problems, nervous problems. He was in hospital and all military

21 medical commissions gave him a temporary release from the army.

22 He was not called to serve in the army.

23 Q. Until April '94?

24 A. Right, right. In April '94 he was truly mobilized. He put on

25 the uniform, and went to Gradacac.

26 MR. TIEGER: Thank you ma'am.

27 MR. KAY: There are some matters arising, your Honour.


Page 6560

1 Re-examined by MR. KAY

2 MR. KAY: Was 22nd May 1992 your husband's first or last working day

3 at his company?

4 A. On 22nd May 1992 was Friday, the last day of my husband's work

5 on his job in his company. The first working day was April when

6 he was obliged to work, that was April '93, April '93, when he

7 started working again. For a year until the end of April or

8 26th or 27th April 1994 he was mobilized. He received his

9 summons. He was given the uniform and he left on that same day

10 for Gradacac.

11 Q. Has your husband ever told you whether he has driven a tank?

12 A. No, never.

13 MR. KAY: That is all I ask.


15 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour, nothing further. Thank you.

16 Examined by the Court

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I may be the only one who is having difficulty

18 with the dates. Let me ask you just a couple of questions,

19 Mrs. Vlacina. If I understand your testimony correctly, your

20 husband's last working day was May 22nd 1992, is that correct,

21 and that was with his company?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Then he started working again with his company, the same company

24 or a different company?

25 A. In the same company, the same company. They called him back to

26 work in April 1993.

27 Q. Did you testify that he was mobilized in 1993 but did not

28 actually serve until April '94? That is when I am confused.

Page 6561

1 When was he mobilized?

2 A. In 1994, also April, late April. He was given the summons. He

3 was summoned to the army. He put on the uniform and went

4 straight to the battle front, because following the events in

5 Croatia my husband was in hospital in Banja Luka for a long

6 time, and all the various medical, military medical committees

7 declared him unfit to serve in the army. He was sent home for

8 treatment and convalescence.

9 Q. So he did not work at all between April 22nd 1992 and April

10 1993?

11 A. He did not work and even now he does not work.


13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour -- excuse me -- I think the Court meant

14 May 22nd, if you wanted to check the transcript on that?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. May 22nd was the last working day, so

16 that between that date and April 1993 your husband did not work?

17 A. Right. He did not, and nobody ever called him to go to work.

18 Q. And did not serve in the army during that period of time between

19 May 22nd 1992 and April 1993?

20 A. Between May 22nd?

21 Q. 1992, his last working day, and April 1993 when he started to

22 work again, did he serve in the army?

23 A. Well, he was called for the technical part, for maintenance and

24 repairs, but he was not obliged to go every day. I cannot tell

25 you in any more detail really.

26 Q. Do you know where he went and what kind of repairs he made on

27 what kind of equipment? Do you know anything about what he was

28 doing during that period of time?

Page 6562

1 A. Well, there were technical interventions, I would say. This was

2 only when he was needed.

3 Q. Do you know what he did when he left because he was needed?

4 A. I do not know.

5 Q. Do you know where he went?

6 A. It was all in Prijedor, everything happened in Prijedor.

7 Q. Was he called by the Yugoslav National Army during this period

8 between May 22nd 1992 and April 1993?

9 A. You mean the army?

10 Q. The army.

11 A. The military, yes?

12 Q. The army.

13 A. I do not know. He was working in the central workshop in

14 Prijedor, but I do not know many more and I cannot answer your

15 question.

16 Q. So you do not know whether he was in the army during that period

17 of time, is that what you are saying? Did he wear a uniform

18 when he left?

19 A. Yes, everybody had to have a uniform. For me, officially, he

20 left -- he went into the army in 1994 because that is when he

21 put on the uniform and left.

22 Q. Did he wear a uniform when he would leave to go to work on the

23 technical equipment between May 22nd 1992 and April 1993?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Was it a grey uniform?

26 A. Yes, the SMB uniform. Everybody had that kind of uniform

27 because the work obligation actually meant that they would be

28 dressed like that and they would be called to do work.

Page 6563

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, additional questions?

2 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.


4 MR. KAY: Yes, there are, your Honour.

5 Further re-examined by MR. KAY

6 Q. We have referred to military service as well as work

7 obligation. Were they two different things during this period

8 in 1992?

9 A. I do not know how to answer this question because when the war

10 broke out many people were mobilized and they left home and they

11 would be away for 10 days, 20 days, a month. Those who had work

12 obligation, they were mostly at home. They remained in Prijedor

13 and they would be working seven to eight hours a day. So

14 everybody who was truly mobilized, who were summoned into the

15 army, they would go to the front, to break the corridor and so

16 on, and so the troops left from Prijedor.

17 I do not know for sure, because everybody had to come

18 to a central collection point in Prijedor and then they would

19 leave Prijedor and go somewhere. While people who had work

20 obligations, they remained there and they had their normal

21 working hours, five, six, seven, eight hours a day. But

22 practically everybody was uniformed -- everybody.

23 Q. When your husband was called for technical assistance in

24 Prijedor, was that work obligation or military service?

25 A. I do not know. I honestly do not know.

26 Q. But was your husband mobilized at this time after 22nd May 1992

27 at any stage during that year?

28 A. Did he get summons and so on? He did not go -- he did not go to

Page 6564

1 the battle front. He did not go anywhere. You mean whether he

2 got official summons? I only know the unofficial summons in

3 April 1994 when I saw him out of the house and when he left.

4 Q. Do you know how many times he assisted on technical matters in

5 Prijedor and whilst he was at home in 1992?

6 A. Every Saturday and Sunday he was at home.

7 MR. KAY: Thank you very much.


9 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour, nothing.

10 Further examined by the Court

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Does that mean that Monday through Friday he

12 would leave to assist on the technical matters?

13 A. I do not know what the role was. Everybody was doing something.

14 Q. I am not asking what his role was. I am asking -- the question

15 that Mr. Kay asked you was ----

16 A. 1992, you are asking?

17 Q. The question that he asked you was, when did he go and your answer

18 was, "when did he go... matters? Your answer was that he

19 was home every Saturday and Sunday. That is not truly

20 responsive unless I can assume that you meant, therefore, that

21 he went to work on these technical matters Monday through

22 Friday. That is what I assumed, but I thought it would be best

23 to ask you that. So did he leave to work on these

24 technical ----

25 A. Yes, he worked, he worked and he would be coming back home at

26 around 3 o'clock and was home every evening.

27 Q. So he worked Monday through Friday on these technical matters?

28 A. Yes, I do not know whether it was every day. It may not have

Page 6565

1 been every day.

2 Q. Maybe not every day, OK, but he was certainly at home ----

3 A. I can only tell you what I am quite sure, that every afternoon,

4 every evening, every night he was home.

5 Q. That is what you remember, I am sure, but he was paid, was he

6 not, because your apartment had been given to you by his

7 previous employer, but he was not longer working, I gather, for

8 this employer, so did you then have to pay rent -- I am sorry?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Was your apartment not given to you by his employer?

11 A. Yes, we did get the flat from the company, but when the war

12 started nobody received any salary. There was no -- nothing was

13 being paid. The mine company was not paying any wages or

14 salaries. Only once they paid it in, I think it was in June or

15 July, but for the rest of time my husband got no salary.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Tieger?

17 MR. TIEGER: No.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Nothing. Mr. Kay?

19 MR. KAY: No, thank you.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Vlacina being

21 permanently excused?

22 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, the same situation.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Mrs. Vlacina, you are free to leave now

24 but you should remain available to the Tribunal because you may

25 be recalled as a witness. Keep in touch with Mr. Kay. If he

26 indicates that you are to return, then you should return for

27 testimony. Will you do that?


Page 6566

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Thank you very much for coming. We will

2 stand in recess for 20 minutes.

3 (11.38 p.m.)

4 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

5 (12.00).

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, Mr. Kay, would you call your next

7 witness?

8 MR. KAY: Yes, the next witness, your Honour, is to be known as

9 Witness Y and will be giving his evidence under that pseudonym.

10 Although it will be in open session for most of his evidence,

11 part of it will have to be in closed session and he will have a

12 facially distorted image for the passage that is in open

13 session.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. Mr. Niemann, did you want to add

15 something?

16 MR. NIEMANN: It is only, your Honour, I was responding to what

17 happened just before the adjournment when you asked me about

18 Exhibit 61D.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sorry, yes. I forgot about that.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Our position is, your Honour, we do not have any

21 objection to its tender, but I do not think we have seen it all

22 yet. My understanding is that only part of it has been played,

23 but I might be wrong in that; if that is not the case, then

24 perhaps all of it should be. The only matter is that we ask if

25 the Defence could indicate (and it can be done from the Bar

26 table) when the video was actually taken, at what time of the

27 year and the date.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, have we seen the complete of 61?

Page 6567

1 MR. KAY: Your Honour, what we did was we had a tape and took out

2 segments and we played three segments before that particular

3 witness which we then made the Exhibit rather than the whole

4 tape. The film itself was shot in August of this year by

5 Mr. Wladimiroff ----

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is what I really wanted to ask!

7 MR. KAY: Hence the slight lurch to the left as he was walking!

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is OK. I had difficulty looking at the

9 same time and pressing it. It is very difficult. OK, so what

10 we have then is a video of a longer duration, but only certain

11 clips of it were offered. Do you want to see the entire video

12 before making ----

13 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour. If that is all the Defence wish it to

14 be as an Exhibit ----

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that all that is in?

16 MR. NIEMANN: --- then there is no objection.

17 MR. KAY: That is right. We filmed every house on that road. When

18 it became clear we were not dealing with those, we took them out

19 of the ----

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I see. 61B then will be admitted.

21 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You will call your next witness?

23 MR. KAY: Witness Y, please.

24 WITNESS Y, called

25 Examined by MR. KAY

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is

27 being given to you.

28 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 6568

1 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

2 (The witness was sworn)

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated. Mr. Kay?

4 MR. KAY: Thank you very much, your Honour.

5 Q. Witness Y, I would like you to look at this piece of paper and

6 identify whether that is your proper name and once you have

7 looked at it if it would be handed to the Prosecution and then

8 to the Registry? Is that your name?

9 A. Yes, it is my first and last name.

10 Q. You will be known in court as "Witness Y". Can you confirm that

11 you live in the area of Kozarac at the moment?

12 A. Yes, do you want me to say the number of the house, the street

13 and all the rest? I live in ----

14 Q. No, I am going to stop you.

15 A. Yes, I live there.

16 Q. Thank you. That is all we need. When did you move to that area

17 of Kozarac? How long have you lived there?

18 A. I moved into the area of Kozarac on 2nd August '92.

19 Q. Where had you lived before 2nd August 1992?

20 A. I lived in Gradina which is the municipality of Velika Kladusa.

21 Q. For how long have you lived in municipality of Velika Kladusa?

22 A. Well, the municipality of Velika Kladusa, I was born on

23 2nd January '64 and I lived in that village until the primary

24 school. Since primary school, I went to Bihac. That is where

25 I completed secondary school and High School. After the

26 completion of that, I found a job at Glina where I built a house

27 and I worked there for a year until the war broke out in

28 Croatia. After the beginning of war in '91, that was, I again

Page 6569

1 lived in that village until I left in '92.

2 Q. What was your occupation in 1991? What was your job?

3 A. I am a mechanical engineer.

4 Q. You referred to going to school and your education. Were you

5 qualified as an engineer?

6 A. It was a high mechanical school, that is, I am -- was a shop

7 floor engineer.

8 Q. When you were living in Velika Kladusa were you living with your

9 family?

10 A. Yes, I lived my father, mother, sister, grandfather,

11 grandmother.

12 Q. Were you married?

13 A. Yes, I married in '91.

14 Q. Did you have a child?

15 A. I had a child in Kozarac. He was born on 13th November '92.

16 Q. Why did you move to Kozarac on 2nd August 1992?

17 A. Well, we moved because we could not live there, we could not

18 survive there. I am talking in my own name, my house burnt down

19 sometime in July. I cannot remember exactly. It was before

20 August, towards the end of July. My father's house and his land

21 and everything was burnt down. So it was simply not safe there

22 and, therefore, we had to leave what we had and go, go anywhere

23 just to save our lives and survive. That was our only

24 objective, to live and survive.

25 Q. What is your ethnic background?

26 A. I am a Serb.

27 Q. Is that an Orthodox religion as well that you follow, the

28 Orthodox religion?

Page 6570

1 A. Yes, Orthodox.

2 Q. The other members of your family, you told us about your mother

3 and father, were they Serbs as well?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Your wife to whom you are married, was she a Serb?

6 A. She is also a Serb, yes.

7 Q. How did the house where you lived come to be burnt down?

8 A. Well, we, when was that -- when did this thing start in Bosnia,

9 sometime since April or May, and up there we were adjacent to

10 the municipality of Glina and the municipality of Dvor, and we

11 had very many relatives up there, and we escaped, that is, we

12 took out something that we thought was valuable, that is, some

13 cattle and vehicles, tractors, and we took them up there and we

14 were up there for about two months. We managed somehow to

15 survive there for about two months until July, and then we had

16 to abandon it all and leave.

17 Q. What was the dominant ethnic population in that area where you

18 were living in Velika Kladusa?

19 A. You mean the municipality or my village?

20 Q. First of all, tell us about the municipality.

21 A. I see, municipality. I think, well, at that time I did not

22 really, I was not interested in this, that is before the war,

23 I did not care about it that much, but I think that there were

24 about three or four per cent of the population of Serb origin in

25 that municipality, I should say that, but as regards the

26 municipality we had a larger area, that is, we had a lot of

27 land. I think that about 33 per cent of the area of Kladusa was

28 Serb property and the rest is where Muslims lived.

Page 6571

1 Q. In your village in that area that you have told us about, what

2 was the dominant ethnic population?

3 A. We were not many. In my village, specifically -- for instance,

4 in my village of Gradina there were about 70, 70 households, and

5 it was by and large a Serb village. The population there was

6 largely Serb.

7 Q. Were other houses burnt down belonging to Serb people in that

8 village where you lived or was it just your house?

9 A. Quite a number of houses burned down. All those houses closer,

10 closer to the Muslims, they all burned down. A number of houses

11 burned down and when we were leaving some were still standing,

12 but they were burned down later.

13 Q. How did they come to be burnt down? What was happening in the

14 area that caused them to be damaged or destroyed?

15 A. I do not really understand the question.

16 Q. If they burnt down, who set fire to them or what happened to

17 them? How did they get on fire if they burnt down?

18 A. It was this way, because of that, towards the end of July, we

19 had to leave. We simply could not survive there because of the

20 fire, because of our people dying, so we had to leave what we

21 had there. While we were there, several more houses burnt down

22 which were very near Muslim houses, and my house burnt down when

23 I left which means before I came to Prijedor, somewhere around,

24 between 25th and 27th, that is when my house burnt down. I was

25 not there at the time because I had already retreated to that

26 municipality of Dvor next to the border, which was about a

27 kilometre to two away, and I saw my house burning.

28 We had to do that because we were few there, there

Page 6572

1 were a few Serbs there. We had no assistance from anywhere,

2 nothing, so that we simply could not survive in that area. It

3 was unbearable and we could not -- we simply want to save our

4 heads. We did not care about anything, either about our

5 property or anything. The important thing was to save our

6 families and our lives, because quite a number of us were

7 victimized while we were there, in that period, in those combat

8 operations.

9 Q. Why had you had to retreat then from the house where you lived

10 and move to an area closer to the border? What was it that

11 caused you to retreat and leave the place where you had lived?

12 A. So that I and my family would save our lives. That was the

13 reason chiefly, not to be killed, not to be captured, not to be

14 ill-treated.

15 Q. So what was happening then at that time in the place where you

16 lived?

17 A. What was happening? Well, what was happening was that we were

18 being attacked and naturally we had to flee. We had to withdraw

19 because we were few, we were impotent, we could offer no

20 resistance, nothing. We were a minority and we had to, we

21 simply had to flee. I saw a colleague being killed so we simply

22 had to flee.

23 Q. Had relationships always been like that in the place where you

24 lived or had things changed from what they used to be in the

25 past?

26 A. Well, as far as for Bihac, I can say something more about that.

27 One did not feel it until the recognition of that Bosnia and,

28 say, the war in Croatia. We lived quite normally, worked with

Page 6573

1 them, co-operated, visited each other, had friends and all

2 that. But the recognition of Bosnia, even before that war, when

3 there was war in Croatia, one began to feel that, one began to

4 sense that hatred, what do I know, somehow it was not very

5 pleasant. For instance, in the evening you had to take care not

6 to be too late in a village where the majority were Muslims.

7 So that already in '91, in '91 we were already going

8 through, how shall I put it, fear and things because of this war

9 in Croatia, and especially since '92, that is, since April 1992,

10 it became intolerable in '92, sometime in June, not to mention

11 July, let alone May.

12 Q. Can you tell us again when it was that you left Bihac, what date

13 that was?

14 A. I think now I am not really good at dates, but we started

15 working in Glina -- I think it was about '89, it was 1989,

16 either 88 or '89 when I left Bihac.

17 Q. From Bihac then in 1989, that is when you moved to Glina, is

18 that right?

19 A. Yes, that is right. I went to Glina because I got a job there

20 for some -- I was there for some 13 or 14 months in Glina.

21 Q. Then after 13 or 14 months in Glina, which would be in 1990,

22 perhaps, is that when you moved to your village that you have

23 told us about?

24 A. I had a house in Glina. I mean, I built a house for myself in

25 Glina. So, before -- so during that time I left because I lost

26 my job there. I worked for a year, for some 13 months, more or

27 less and I was there. Then I was given notice by the company

28 because it was that period, it was those months on the eve of

Page 6574

1 the war in Croatia. As I was fired, I had nothing to live on in

2 Glina in that house since I had nothing there. I mean, I just

3 built a house and I had where to live but nothing else.

4 So I went back to my father because he had property,

5 he had land there, my father, in the village, and that is where

6 I lived and worked.

7 Q. Perhaps you can tell us then when it was that you left Glina to

8 move back to your family home with your parents?

9 A. My mother died in November 1990, yes, it was in 1990, so that,

10 of course, I already had some roots in Glina and also the

11 village. So that from time to time I went home and then came

12 back to the land in the village when there was work to do

13 there. I was sort of on both sides.

14 Q. When you left Glina to go and live with your father at the

15 family home, were you working in that part of Velika Kladusa at

16 that time?

17 A. I was mostly helping my father. I mean, he had land, he had his

18 tractor and that is where I worked looking after the cattle, but

19 it was agriculture, both farming and cattle.

20 Q. How long had your father lived there in the family home in

21 Velika Kladusa?

22 A. My father was born in 1939, so that until the flight he has

23 lived there all his life, that is since 1939, or you know there

24 was '41, you know what that was all. But they went on living

25 there on that land. So he was born in 1939 and he lived there

26 all his life until 2nd August '92.

27 Q. In that part of Velika Kladusa then where your father had his

28 house, what had relations been like between the different ethnic

Page 6575

1 groups in that area in the past, in former times?

2 A. I have already said, once upon a time the relations were good.

3 I mean, my father and I, we worked. We lived normally, I have

4 told you, until the war in Croatia, and then especially in

5 Bosnia the relations were quite good. We did not particularly

6 notice anything. There might have been, but I am saying this in my

7 own name. We never sensed anything like that, neither my father

8 nor I, since we worked and lived there very near to others, and

9 we co-operated closely and would go to each other's homes and

10 things. So, until the war in Croatia it was all .....

11 Q. Before 2nd August 1992, had you ever been to Kozarac or that

12 area around Kozarac?

13 A. No, I only remember when I was at primary school we would go to

14 Kozara Mountain, to Mountain Kozara, but I have never been or

15 even heard of Trnopolje and all those villages. I had heard

16 about Kozarac and I have passed through, but when I arrived

17 there I simply did not know where I was, because once when I was

18 at primary school we went to visit the monument on Kozara, and

19 through Prijedor I think I passed once when a student. So that

20 I did not know Trnopolje or Kozarac or anything until I arrived

21 there.

22 Q. On 2nd August 1992, did you come from Velika Kladusa to the

23 Kozarac region on your own or with others?

24 A. We came around 27th or 28th. Most Serbs who lived within

25 Kladusa, within the municipality of Kladusa, left the area

26 between 20th or 21st April. In late April, all the Serbs who

27 lived in parts of Kladusa where the majority was Muslim, they

28 all left. They fled and lived outside in villages where

Page 6576

1 somebody might have a family, father, mother or whatever.

2 Then at the end of July we could not stand it any

3 longer. That was in late July then. In July, since I had a

4 small truck, they came, my neighbours came, and asked and said:

5 "We will get the fuel, let's go and inspect and see where we

6 could settle". So our representatives tried to organise

7 something for us. So they got the information that we should go

8 to Prijedor to see what can be arranged for us. They asked me

9 -- I remember very well -- one afternoon before evening whether

10 I could go and accompany them and take some 15, 20 or 10 people

11 that would fit into my little lorry, that they will pay for the

12 fuel and that I should take them to Prijedor on the following

13 day. I said: "No problem, I will do that, but why?" "Well",

14 they said, "we cannot stand here, there is no life here. You

15 see for yourself that it is impossible so we have to do

16 something". So I said: "Fine, no problem. We will buy the

17 fuel and we will go", and so some 20 of us, 19 to 20 people,

18 went. I brought them in my lorry to Prijedor.

19 Q. Were they coming to the Prijedor area to look at it or were they

20 actually settling at that time in the Prijedor area?

21 A. They came mostly to have a look, to decide what to do because

22 before that these people had not been there, they had not passed

23 through that part of the country. They were elderly people

24 mostly. They had no idea what it looked like. So they came to

25 inspect the place, to see where and how or whether they could

26 live there.

27 Q. Having looked at the place, was there a decision taken amongst

28 the group of people that they would move from the area where

Page 6577

1 they were in retreat and move to Prijedor?

2 A. Yes, precisely, exactly like that. The decision was made that

3 these people should resettle into that part of the country, into

4 in and around Kozarac.

5 Q. So did you come to the area around Kozarac on 2nd August 1992

6 because at that time you were resettling in that place?

7 A. Well, it was like this. We, I mean, these people who I brought

8 in my truck, they reported, I did not do that but they reported,

9 two or three people actually went to the municipal authority, to

10 the municipal offices. I remained with my vehicle because it

11 was dangerous to leave it unattended. So I remained with the

12 rest of the people while our representatives, three of them,

13 went to the municipal authorities. They talked to somebody -- I

14 do not know who they talked to -- and they came back and said:

15 "Well, let us see, we will get the SUP, the police escort". So

16 the driver of the police vehicle said: "Come on, drive after

17 me, follow us". So we did. We drove. I did not know the

18 area. I simply followed the police vehicle. We left the city.

19 We went through Donji Garevci, through Trnopolje and

20 we came up to [redacted]. That is where we left my

21 lorry and with the police escort we walked the street. No, we

22 did not enter any buildings. We simply looked at the buildings

23 from the outside. It took about half an hour, perhaps an hour.

24 After that, everybody went back to my lorry and we

25 drove to the main road between Banja Luka and Prijedor and then

26 we left for Prijedor. In Prijedor, our representatives went to

27 the municipal authorities again. When they returned, what they

28 arranged there, I do not know, but when they returned we all

Page 6578

1 boarded the truck and left back for my home.

2 Q. Did there come a time, then, when there was a decision made to

3 leave that area where you were in retreat and to move down to

4 that region near Kozarac?

5 A. Well, the decision was made, the decision was left to us to

6 decide whether we would like or would not like to live in the

7 region of Kozarac. So that we should resettle, because really

8 it was impossible to live where we were. Our wives and children

9 could not stand it any more and we, therefore, decided that,

10 yes, we would resettle into that part of the country.

11 Q. Perhaps if we could just look at a map now and identify the area

12 that you have been referring to. Prosecution Exhibit 79.

13 (Handed). Witness Y, this is a map of the Prijedor/Kozarac

14 region and I see you looking at it now. Can you just look at

15 the place where Kozarac is? I think you will find it the other

16 side of Prijedor, that side of Prijedor.

17 A. Donji Garevci, yes, I have it. Kozarac.

18 Q. Kozarac has a what is called the new highway between Prijedor

19 and Banja Luka which is shown as a thick red line on the map.

20 Can you see that?

21 A. Yes, a red line.

22 Q. That is right.

23 A. A red road.

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

26 [redacted]

27 [redacted]

28 Q. For identification purposes and for the record if we could just

Page 6579

1 put that on the overhead projector and you indicate it with a

2 pointer. Perhaps if the map could be moved further across

3 towards the Judges. That will do fine. Perhaps if you could

4 just indicate [redacted] on that map?

5 A. [The witness indicated] [redacted].

6 Q. Thank you. Whilst we are just looking at the map there, [redacted]

7 [redacted] is that the

8 road that goes down to the old, well, Kozarac railway station?

9 A. Yes. Yes, that is the road towards the railway station.

10 Q. And past the place that is now known as Trnopolje camp?

11 A. Not camp, the collection centre or collection point, that is

12 what we called it.

13 Q. Are there refugees, Serbian refugees in that collection centre

14 at the moment?

15 A. Yes, there are Serbian refugees.

16 Q. There are families in that place at the moment, is that right?

17 A. Yes, there are Serbian refugees in the school, in the Trnopolje

18 school, that is where they live.

19 Q. Thank you. If we can now move on. On 2nd August 1992, was that

20 the day that you resettled in [redacted]?

21 A. On 2nd August 1992 that is when we resettled there.

22 Q. Did you come on your own on that day or with others?

23 A. I did not come alone. There were on that day some 70, 70

24 families that arrived together on 2nd August 1992. Some 70

25 families arrived on that day and later more, more families came.

26 Q. Seventy families, about how many people is that?

27 A. Well, you may reckon three to four members per family, seven

28 times three will be 21, some 250, up to 250 people. I cannot

Page 6580

1 give you the exact figure, but three to four members per family

2 would be the average.

3 Q. Were those families that had been in similar positions to your

4 own in the district of Velika Kladusa?

5 A. Yes, we were all threatened. We were all in the same position

6 and we were all threatened.

7 Q. Were those Serbian families, Serbian by their ethnic background?

8 A. Yes, they were all Serbian families.

9 Q. Was that the first group of people that moved from that area

10 that came to settle in the Kozarac area?

11 A. Yes, that was the first group. They were the people who had

12 left Velika Kladusa and then went to our villages, Gradina

13 Bojna. Some people also left for Glina and to the surrounding

14 villages. So that happened between the 20th, 21st April until

15 the end of April. But the first group that came to the Kozarac

16 area was in fact my group, some 70 families.

17 Q. You referred to other families coming later on. Did other

18 groups move in large groups of people later on in the month?

19 A. All families felt threatened, but the problem was how to

20 transport people at once. It was impossible. So that some

21 families remained with their families, with their relatives, in

22 the part of Glina municipality and Dvor municipality. So they

23 stayed there because it was impossible to move such a large

24 number of families, such a large number of people. So they kept

25 coming later. I do not know how many came. Some people

26 probably left, remained in Glina, others left for Serbia, some

27 families I know that, but also some came to the Kozarac area

28 later. Throughout the month of August, by the end of August

Page 6581

1 everybody came.

2 Q. Were you able to bring the family possessions with you when you

3 moved to [redacted]?

4 A. I have already mentioned that in April when we moved from Velika

5 Kladusa when the difficulties started, since we had relatives,

6 and even if we did not have relatives, they would accept us and

7 they would accept our possessions. So I brought my car, my

8 tractor, my lorry. That was all done in May. So that we had

9 all our belongings and we actually did transport them on several

10 occasions later, throughout the months of October, November,

11 December, until spring the following year. So that we actually

12 managed to transport most of our belongings.

13 Q. So you revisited the former area where you had been and

14 collected your possessions and brought them down to [redacted],

15 is that right?

16 A. We did not visit our houses where we lived. When we left we

17 left and what was burnt was burnt. We only visited our

18 relatives living outside of Velika Kladusa in the Serbian

19 territory of the Krajina. That was the Serbian territory of

20 Krajina which was not held by the Croats but by the Serbs. So

21 when we left on 2nd August we could not go down to Velika

22 Kladusa. We could not find anything. There was nothing to find

23 any more. Much of this was burnt and what was left was not

24 there any more. So we could only visit our relatives and we

25 actually deposited or stored our belongings with our relatives.

26 Q. So what you had been able to save from your former house and put

27 with your relatives, you eventually brought down from the

28 Krajina [redacted]?

Page 6582

1 A. Yes. Yes, of course from there, not only me, everybody was

2 bringing their possessions, but once we left our original homes

3 that was the end of it. If it had been possible to go back

4 there, we would not have fled at all. We would have preferred

5 to remain in our homes.

6 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

7 A. Yes, I know Dusko Tadic.

8 Q. When did you first meet Dusko Tadic?

9 A. I met Dusko Tadic because earlier I had not known him, not only

10 him, I had not known anybody in that part of the country. So

11 I only knew people who came with me. But I met Dusko Tadic in

12 mid-August, sometime between the 15th. I do not know which

13 date. The dates are not very clear in my mind, but sometime

14 around mid-August I met him for the first time.

15 Q. And that is in 1992?

16 A. You are right. Right, 1992, quite.

17 Q. How did you come to meet Dusko Tadic?

18 A. Since we, myself and others, I was rather elected as a

19 representative of the new settlers. We had to have our

20 representatives when we came there. There were many things to

21 arrange with the authorities. We did not know anybody, not

22 knowing the terrain and so on. So they needed to have some kind

23 of guide, some kind of guidance and so on. So I was appointed

24 or elected, if you like, representative of the settlers

25 community from my village. In fact it was myself plus two more

26 people who came with me. So we tried to help these people and

27 make arrangements for them.

28 Q. Where were you staying at that time when you first arrived in

Page 6583

1 [redacted] on 2nd August 1992?

2 A. Since we arrived there in fairly large number, we actually

3 settled there and we have been living there since that time. We

4 did not move. If somebody left the village, he would come back

5 perhaps. We were simply looking for shelter. So somebody

6 entered one house or two to three families would enter a house

7 to have a roof over their head to sleep there. So we lived in

8 the houses that were allocated to us.

9 Q. Who allocated those houses to you?

10 A. The municipality allocated the buildings or houses to us. The

11 group, I mean the three of us, brought lists of people with the

12 number of people per family, with names, surnames, the head of

13 the family and members of the family. So we prepared these

14 lists and gave them to the municipal authorities. The municipal

15 authorities had a commission that allocated houses. So they

16 would actually tell us which family should go into which house.

17 So such and such a family goes into the Mladena Stojanovice

18 Street No. 3 or 4. So the Municipal Commission, special

19 Municipal Commission, allocated the homes.

20 Q. Did this happen on 2nd August 1992, the day you arrived, or did

21 these allocations take place at a later date?

22 A. We did not get the papers immediately. We were simply told

23 between the 27th, the 28th August, 27th and 28th and 29th August

24 we submitted our lists. By 2nd September we had written

25 decisions given to our names, and so you would be sent to such

26 and such a street, such and such a house number.

27 Q. The first time you met Dusko Tadic, can you remember where that

28 was or what the occasion was?

Page 6584

1 A. I met Dusko Tadic in my house. Now I say "my house" because

2 that is where I live now and that is where I met him.

3 Q. Did he visit you there or did you ask him to see you?

4 A. Well you see, since I plus two more people were representatives

5 for the resettling community, we knew whom we should approach

6 and whom the municipal office should approach, so that when the

7 municipal authorities needed any kind of information they knew

8 they should contact us, myself plus at least these two other

9 people. We had already settled. There was no local community,

10 there was no organisation, so to speak. There was no local

11 community organisation in Kozarac because of the uncertainty and

12 unrest. So representatives of the municipality came to me.

13 Dusko came with three more people. Dusko asked and they asked

14 me: "Who is responsible for these people?" The municipal

15 authorities said that we were the representatives and they

16 should contact me or the other two members to see what needs to

17 be done and that is how I met him in my house.

18 Q. The municipal authorities that you refer to as the ones that you

19 had given your name and other representatives from your people

20 their names as well, what do you mean by "municipal authority"?

21 Where was that based?

22 A. The municipal authorities were the Executive Committee. They

23 were the President of the commune or municipality, secretary of

24 the municipality, the Executive Council. They worked in the

25 city, in the town.

26 Q. What city or town do you mean?

27 A. Prijedor. I mean Prijedor.

28 Q. So when you were dealing with the representatives of the

Page 6585

1 municipality initially, you were dealing there with

2 representatives from Prijedor?

3 A. Yes, of course, because Prijedor accepted us and we in fact had

4 no other contacts, so to speak. That was the only contact we

5 had was in Prijedor.

6 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

8 (1.00 p.m.)

9 (Luncheon Adjournment)





















Page 6586

1 (2.30 p.m.)

2 WITNESS Y, recalled.

3 Examined by MR. KAY, continued.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you like to continue, please?

5 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

6 Q. Witness Y, before the luncheon adjournment you were telling us

7 about your dealings with representatives from the municipality

8 of Prijedor. You had also told us about your first meeting with

9 Dusko Tadic. What was the reason for your having dealings with

10 Mr. Tadic?

11 A. It was like this. As I was one of those new settlers there,

12 they knew it all, the municipality, because all that we did,

13 that we had to do since our arrival, our life there and

14 everything, we did it all through municipal authorities, from

15 which I inferred that Dusko had been informed by the

16 municipality to come to me and to those people in order to bring

17 that part of Kozarac back to life.

18 Q. So did you know in what capacity it was that Mr. Tadic was

19 dealing with you as the representative of your people?

20 A. Well, if I can say so, I did not know Dusko Tadic at that time,

21 I did not know any other people who came, and the four of them,

22 those four men, came to my place at around 4.00 or 5 o'clock,

23 and until, I mean, all the people that I was meeting from that

24 area were unknown to me. So that they introduced themselves to

25 me and I introduced myself to them, and we sat down there and

26 they told me who they were, what they were. Since I did not

27 know who they were, they gave me their names and surnames. They

28 told me what had to be done, that they had been informed who to

Page 6587

1 call on, and what we were to do next. They told us who they

2 were, and told us what we were to do and said that we had to

3 agree to reach an understanding as to what we were to do next.

4 Q. Had the commune in Kozarac been established at that stage in

5 mid-August?

6 A. Not -- no, at the time when we arrived. It was those days when

7 we met. One of those days was to, this Local Commune of Kozarac

8 was to be set up. When we arrived there, it did not exist. So

9 it was sometime between 20th or 25th. That is when the Local

10 Commune was established.

11 Q. At this stage before the commune was established in Kozarac,

12 what was life in Kozarac like? What was the general condition

13 of the area?

14 A. To tell you the truth, we did not move around very much. We did

15 not move around for the simple reason that we did not know that

16 area, and that we did not know how, where, when and it was still

17 not quite without risk because of those groups and things. So

18 that we did not move around the road or area, and of those

19 people, that is, I knew from the asphalt, that is, from the

20 Banja Luka/Prijedor road to about [redacted], that was the area

21 which we learnt where we moved, that was that inhabited settled

22 part. As for the upper part of Kozarac, few of us went up there

23 during those days because we simply did not dare move much.

24 Q. What I would like you to look at now is Prosecution Exhibit

25 No. 149. (Handed). Do you see that document there that is

26 dated 15th August 1992? It is the decision on elections for the

27 Kozarac local board of the SDS. Under paragraph 1 you will see

28 a list of names of which the first is Dusko Tadic. [redacted]

Page 6588

1 [redacted]. Do not mention your name but

2 just ----

3 A. Yes, it is there.

4 Q. Looking at this document which we have had in Court before and

5 we have looked at several times, can you tell us whether you

6 were elected or appointed or elected in some form to the local

7 board of the SDS for Kozarac?

8 A. I do not really understand your question.

9 Q. Were you appointed or elected to the local board of the SDS?

10 You will see this document is dated at the bottom left corner of

11 15th August 1992.

12 A. Well, I told you, I gave you the dates between 15th and

13 something and, at any rate, I am very bad at dates especially at

14 that time. But these people here, we were, we were all

15 together, so that means at the time that we are talking about we

16 met and -- so we met on the school premises in Kozarac.

17 Q. How many of you met on the school premises at Kozarac?

18 A. It is difficult. I know -- I know that a certain number of us

19 were there, but how many, I really do not know.

20 Q. Looking at this document, we can see that there is actually

21 space for 15 members. Can you see what is written under

22 paragraph 1: "The Kozarac local board of the SDS shall be

23 established and shall consist of 15 members as follows", and

24 then there is a list of names including your own? Can you see

25 that?

26 A. Yes, I do, I can.

27 Q. But, in fact, there are only 14 names on the list. Can you help

28 us with that at all?

Page 6589

1 A. Well, I guess it was difficult to organise, and perhaps that is

2 why the 15th member is lacking. It was difficult at the time.

3 Q. Do you remember, in fact, attending this meeting where you were

4 appointed to the local board of the SDS in Kozarac?

5 A. Yes, yes, I do.

6 Q. Was Dusko Tadic present at that meeting?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If we look at the end of the document, the chairperson of the

9 meeting was a man called Goran Borovnica, is that right?

10 A. I really do not know. A lot of time has passed since and I

11 really cannot remember every little detail.

12 Q. Right. First of all, if I can ask you this: had you been a

13 politically active person in the days before 15th August 1992?

14 Had you been involved in politics yourself?

15 A. No, no. I was never involved in politics.

16 Q. Were you a member of that Party, in fact, in August 1992? Were

17 you actually a member of the SDS?

18 A. You mean before 15th?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. No, no, I was not. No.

21 Q. Did you ever join the SDS? Did you ever apply to join the

22 Party?

23 A. Well, as we -- we worked together with Dusko. I mean, from 15th

24 for about two months, which means until about 15th November,

25 I helped in the Local Commune work there, and then I started

26 doing something else. So I was not working there. So for about

27 two months, September, October, and a little bit more.

28 Q. Did you ever fill in a form to join the SDS? Did you ever fill

Page 6590

1 in an application form to join the Party?

2 A. Yes, I did. I did. I filled it.

3 Q. When was that?

4 A. I do not remember the date, but it was sometime then, that is,

5 in August.

6 Q. Would it have been around 15th August?

7 A. I am afraid I would not know.

8 Q. Was there actually an election whereby you were then appointed

9 to the board? Did people vote in an election around you to put

10 you on the board of the SDS?

11 A. Well, my people nominated me as their representative, and they

12 voted for me to represent them and to be their representative.

13 Q. So did you attend a meeting of the SDS and because you went to

14 that meeting you were then put on the board?

15 A. How do you mean?

16 Q. Well, we looked at this document that shows that there was on

17 15th August 1992 a meeting appointing these people to the local

18 board of the SDS. Is it because you went to that meeting that

19 you were then put on the board, so that the Kozarac local board

20 of the SDS was established with you as a representative of your

21 people?

22 A. Yes, quite, I was representing our people, that is, there was

23 one representative from every locality, depending on the number

24 of people.

25 Q. After you were appointed to the board of the SDS on 15th August

26 at that meeting, were you a politically active person involved

27 with the SDS politics?

28 A. Well, I mostly -- I mostly worked. We divided duties amongst

Page 6591

1 us, so that I did certain things and somebody else did something

2 else and so on and so forth.

3 Q. Did you read political books, for instance, about the SDS?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. Did anyone supply you with literature, pages of literature,

6 about the philosophy and thinking of those who may have

7 established the Party?

8 A. No, nobody.

9 Q. At any meeting in Kozarac of the SDS was there literature

10 distributed about the political thoughts of the leaders of the

11 Party?

12 A. In Prijedor, you mean? In the town?

13 Q. No, in Kozarac at the local board.

14 A. No, I do not think so. I do not know.

15 Q. I mean, in that two months that you have told us you were the

16 representative of your people on the SDS local board, was Dusko

17 Tadic making political speeches to you about the philosophy and

18 thinking of the SDS?

19 A. You mean, he rallied the people around him and told them

20 something, addressed them?

21 Q. Yes, on political philosophy, the politics of the SDS?

22 A. I do not think so. We mostly tried to bring life back to that

23 part of Kozarac, and for us to somehow, to see how to move on,

24 how to bring life back there and that was more or less all.

25 Q. So, were your dealings then here with the local representatives

26 of the SDS (of which you were a member) on a practical level

27 dealing with the problems of Kozarac and how to bring life back

28 to that town, and how to sort out the buildings and other

Page 6592

1 problems of the town?

2 A. Quite, quite. That was the only purpose we were there and the

3 only way we could work, we could really do something. For

4 instance, we met on a daily basis only to work. All we were

5 interested in was work, nothing else. There was nothing else we

6 were concerned about. All we wanted to do was to bring life

7 back to this local commune of Kozarac. I did not know the area

8 or anything. So that that was the only way we could work to

9 bring life back to it, to clear the whole area because you could

10 not get through because of all the broken cars, demolished

11 cars. There was no electricity and things like that and all we

12 wanted to do was to work.


14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. I want to suggest the

15 possibility of a redaction. The witness mentioned a particular

16 number, although he was cautioned not to mention his name. That

17 particular document has appeared publicly and so the connection

18 could be made. The mention of the number appears at 14.43.54.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, I thought that perhaps we would seal it,

20 but I guess it is too late now. You are saying it is already

21 out.

22 MR. KAY: I am grateful for those observations and that is right.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Then that redaction will be granted.

24 MR. KAY [To the witness]: You were telling us there about the

25 problems. There was no electricity, there were abandoned cars

26 on the road and roads needed to be cleared. What other problems

27 were there in the area that needed to be dealt with by you and

28 the others as part of your work at this time?

Page 6593

1 A. Well, it was like this. We would sit down and then divide the

2 duties amongst us. So, some people were to go to the electric

3 power company to try to solve the problem of electricity. Two

4 or three men were to see about the water supply, so that we

5 could get water back. Some others were made responsible for the

6 clearing of the area and most of the people were involved in

7 these things.

8 Q. What was the condition of the roads like, either the asphalt

9 road, the main Banja Luka/Prijedor highway, or the road that

10 passed through [redacted]?

11 A. Well, Banja Luka/Prijedor had been cleared. I mean, it was all

12 right. Everything was regular. There was regular traffic.

13 There was nothing there. Also on the roads towards Trnopolje,

14 that was clear too. Except that, what do I know, sometimes one

15 would find some household appliance, for instance, a stove or

16 something like that one would find discarded by the road or in

17 the ditch beside it and things like that.

18 Q. Did you start with the others, then, sorting out these problems?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So, having met Dusko Tadic for the first time in mid-August, as

21 you told us, what were your dealings with him after that?

22 A. What do you mean? What kind of dealings? We mostly met there

23 at meetings and exchanged information about what had done what,

24 because all we were interested in was the performance of other

25 groups. For instance, if we met today, shall we say, at 2.00,

26 so I and, say, two colleagues or three colleagues of mine would

27 be charged with going to the electric power supply or to the

28 water supply or to the municipal hall. So that we be doing

Page 6594

1 these things for some two hours or such like. Then we would

2 meet again and exchange information, "Well, I had done this and

3 my group did this, the second group did that, the third group

4 did this".

5 Q. Was the Local Commune of Kozarac involved in this work as well?

6 A. The Local Commune organised, co-ordinated, organised, that work.

7 Q. What was Dusko Tadic's position in the Local Commune?

8 A. We appointed Dusko, we elected Dusko, to be chairman of the

9 local community or secretary of the local community, we called

10 it I think.

11 Q. What was the reason for electing him to be chairman or

12 secretary, whichever the position was?

13 A. Because I did not know these people. He knew everybody from

14 before, so he was most suitable to deal with them, to have all

15 the right contacts, knew people, knew the area and that is why

16 he was elected as chairman.

17 Q. You told us that this work went on for two to three months and

18 you had started in the middle of August. What was the reason

19 for you stopping being involved in this work?

20 A. To tell you the truth, I never worked -- before I came there

21 I never worked on this kind of work. I had lots of things to do

22 at my home. I had also some obligations towards the police

23 station in which I was. So I simply did not have time. Also,

24 I more or less completed what I thought I had to do. I helped

25 these people. I enabled them to find their living quarters, to

26 bring back life to this part of the country. I thought I had

27 done enough for my people. I saved them and I, sort of,

28 directed them, guided them, to their future life.

Page 6595

1 Q. What was your work in the police station?

2 A. In the police station we just worked. On the 25th when the

3 police station was established, a group of people would be

4 securing a village, some -- there were 10, 12 people who went to

5 that village, another group went to another village while a

6 third group would remain in the school because the police

7 station was in the local school. We actually provided security

8 services for the police station and for the school for that part

9 of the town. A group of people also secured [redacted]. So we

10 provided security. That was our main duty.

11 Also, we performed other normal police duties. If

12 there was any theft or burglary or any other problems, we

13 intervened.

14 Q. What was the reason for the security? Why did you need security

15 in those villages and places?

16 A. Well, these villages had to be made secure, to live there,

17 because groups would appear in Mount Kozara and there was --

18 security was not completely established yet and it was necessary

19 to provide some security and protection to these villages.

20 Q. What were the groups that used to appear on Mount Kozara?

21 A. Well, they were Muslim groups who had not yet been captured and

22 who were still on the loose.

23 Q. When you undertook this work for that two to three months, was

24 Dusko Tadic involved in the same sort of work?

25 A. Dusko, well, you see, I would go with one group to go to one

26 village, the group of 10 or 11 people that I led. Dusko took

27 another group. That consisted of five or six people. We went

28 for several days to the various villages, and Dusko was involved

Page 6596

1 with us. He was usually included because he was very attached

2 to this local community, and for that reason he spent most of

3 the time in the police station protecting the village, went to

4 [redacted] on occasion. But he was very much involved in the

5 work of the local community.

6 Q. Was he working out of Kozarac police station with you?

7 A. Yes, yes, he performed his duties out of that station.

8 Q. Were all the men who were eligible expected to work out of

9 Kozarac police station, to perform some duties for the local

10 police station if they were able to?

11 A. Not everybody, that would be too much to say. You mean people

12 who arrived, the settlers?

13 Q. Not the people who arrived but the others who were already there

14 and had lived in Kozarac before the conflict.

15 A. So you mean that they had to be included in the police force?

16 Q. Yes, is that right or wrong? Please help us.

17 A. We had to, of course, yes.

18 Q. When you finished doing this work after two or three months, can

19 you remember what month of the year that was?

20 A. You mean working with Dusko?

21 Q. Yes, working for the local community.

22 A. I would say sometime in the month of October or November.

23 Q. What did you do after that? What was your work or how did you

24 spend your time after that?

25 A. You mean me personally?

26 Q. Yes.

27 A. As I told you already, I was in the police station which means

28 I performed police duties and then I worked at home and around

Page 6597

1 my home in agriculture, farming, mostly at home.

2 Q. Did you see Dusko in that time as well?

3 A. Repeat the question, please?

4 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic in that time from when you finished

5 working for the local community in October or November? Did you

6 see him?

7 A. Yes, because we moved after when I ceased working, the police

8 station was at school. When Dusko was released from the police,

9 he remained to work in the local community while we moved to the

10 former building of the veterinary station near the sawmill, and

11 Dusko was in Kozarac most of the time. I know him -- I remember

12 him very well and we used to see each other every day. He would

13 often go to Prijedor, and because there was no regular public

14 transport he would hitchhike and we, as the police, would

15 actually stop a passing car and ask the driver to take him to

16 Prijedor. So I saw him on a daily basis almost.

17 Q. At what stage was he released from working at the police

18 station?

19 A. I said sometime in November, I think, if I remember correctly,

20 it was November.

21 Q. So can you remember how he spent his time then in November, what

22 he did with himself?

23 A. Well, there was -- you mean leaving, when he left the police, is

24 that what you mean?

25 Q. Yes, when he left the police. You told us that you used to see

26 him around and that you, as the police, used to give him a lift

27 to Prijedor when he was hitchhiking. How was he spending his

28 time? What was he doing in Kozarac?

Page 6598

1 A. Well, Dusko remained the secretary of the local community and

2 SDS, and I remember very well for a while he was a member of

3 what we called Dobrotvor, the charity organisation or charity.

4 So he was an organiser of the charity schemes and he had a lot

5 of work to do in that school. That is where he worked.

6 Q. As a person from that community at that time, do you know if he

7 was also the Commander of Trnopolje camp or collection centre?

8 A. No, that is for sure. Look, we, as the police, had no

9 responsibility for that. Our scope of operation was Kozarac

10 local community. I am describing the time when I was involved

11 there. So I am talking about 1992, so that is 1992, and that is

12 how the situation was on the spot. We covered the area, since

13 I did not know the area, we covered Podgrade, Vidovici, Babici

14 and that area.

15 As for Trnopolje, we, actually our authority --

16 Trnopolje is about six kilometres away -- our authority extended

17 -- I remember Mirecki. Dusko or I had no reason, had no

18 jurisdiction, so to speak, to go to Trnopolje. We did not even

19 dare to go down because that was another police detachment there

20 that covered Trnopolje and so on.

21 We were responsible for the area of Kozarac, and our

22 local community actually extended all the way to Mirecki.

23 Mirecki, I think, is the name. That is a country road turning.

24 Q. We have looked at where [redacted] is on the map this morning.

25 Can you just explain to us in relation to [redacted] where

26 Mirecki is, how far away? Is it towards Trnopolje?

27 A. Yes, this is towards Trnopolje. Kozarac, Trnopolje is six

28 kilometres distance. So half way between these two. Three,

Page 6599

1 three kilometres from Kozarac. That is what we covered. We

2 covered up to that point. I can prove that because part of the

3 -- because some people who came from Kladusa settled in the

4 part to the north of that part, and they belonged to Kozarac. A

5 few other families settled in the houses beyond that line toward

6 Trnopolje, and you are not responsible for them. That was the

7 division line. One group belonged to the Kozarac local

8 community, the other belonged to the Trnopolje local community.

9 Q. Which police detachment then was in charge of that area where

10 the Trnopolje camp was or collection centre?

11 A. I do not -- I know that there was a police detachment there and

12 they were called the police detachment Trnopolje, but who was

13 there and what kind of unit that was, I do not know because I

14 had no dealings with them.

15 Q. In your observations of Dusko Tadic after he had finished

16 working with the local Police and was working in the Local

17 Commune, were you able to see if his business took him down to

18 Trnopolje camp, whether he was involved in the affairs of

19 Trnopolje camp in any way?

20 A. No, he did not go. That is certain. I know that his route and

21 I had it before my eyes. When he took his uniform, he had a

22 jacket, a leather jacket, a coffee coloured jacket, and he had

23 jeans and -- or some kind of black trousers, blue jeans or black

24 jeans, and he had the leather jacket. This is the picture that

25 I have before my eyes of him. He spent a lot of time in that

26 school working out of that school. Often he would spend the

27 night there, remain on duty in the local community. So he spent

28 many hours, because the office in the local community was this.

Page 6600

1 You would enter there, while you were still there, the police

2 was only across the corridor. He was on the other side. He had

3 a closet there. There was a -- there was some kind of desk

4 where he worked at which he had his paper, and so he spent most

5 of his time, and this is 100 per cent true. He had no reason to

6 go even to people who came from Kladusa because he did not know

7 these people. So he would only come to me and talk to me

8 because I could then approach them. He had no reason to go down

9 there and I am sure he did not go.

10 Q. How would you describe the character of Dusko Tadic in 1992 at

11 this time when you knew him?

12 A. I would say that Dusko seemed a very normal person. When I saw

13 him for the first time he had a moustache. He was neatly

14 shaven. We talked very normally and politely and we did not

15 talk about politics. I am not interested in politics. I think

16 that we suffered most, and not only myself and everybody else

17 suffered so much from politics that we did not want to discuss

18 politics. We simply described our life.

19 He told me on one occasion that he used to have a

20 coffee bar before the war, that he was working normally, doing

21 good business and so he behaved very normally, and the

22 conversation was nice. It was -- he was pleasant to talk to.

23 We said: "Well, we will continue to live. We will find our way

24 out of this mess", and so on.

25 MR. KAY: Thank you very much. That is all I ask.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Tieger?

27 MR. TIEGER: May I have a moment, your Honour?

28 MR. KAY: Just to advise the Court, I thought it would be easier if

Page 6601

1 we went into closed session to deal with the matter your Honours

2 are aware of after cross-examination.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Yes, that is acceptable.

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I am going to make a request that I have

5 previously considered and which I believe we have made some, at

6 least, oblique reference to before, but have not made up to

7 now. That is, I would like to continue the cross-examination

8 for the next session. I will be happy to give my reasons to the

9 Court, if the Court pleases.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You mean next Tuesday?

11 MR. TIEGER: I am afraid it is the next court session in this case,

12 yes.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is your reason?

14 MR. TIEGER: There has been previous reference made to what is the

15 fact that the Prosecution under these circumstances knows

16 nothing about the Defence witnesses. I do not think that is

17 entirely the intent and spirit of the Rules which have been

18 established and it is generally not the case in most

19 jurisdictions with which I am familiar.

20 For example, in most circumstances, both the

21 Prosecution and the Defence are required to provide lists of

22 witnesses in advance. This information has no meaning, no point

23 whatsoever, unless some information can be developed about those

24 names and the people who are represented by those names in

25 advance. That is certainly particularly true with alibi

26 notices.

27 Again, they generally contemplate that the adverse

28 party will be provided with the names and some information which

Page 6602

1 provides the possibility of preparing for a meaningful

2 cross-examination. In this case, for virtually every witness we

3 were provided with a name and a general subject matter which, as

4 the Court is aware, spans a period of many months.

5 The provision of such names, in fact, under these

6 circumstances, in some cases the Prosecution was in a position

7 on its own to develop some information which gave us an

8 opportunity to anticipate the general subject matter which would

9 be covered, but in other circumstances (as this one) it did

10 not.

11 We have examined this area, at least in part, for

12 other reasons and under other circumstances. It is not my

13 intent to revisit those areas. We discussed the burden of

14 proof. There is no question but that the Defence has no

15 obligation to produce any evidence. My point is that when they

16 choose to do so, all evidence needs to be examined under the

17 same conditions and with the same scrutiny. For that reason,

18 I am asking for the opportunity to cross-examine this witness

19 after a chance to review this information.


21 MR. KAY: Yes, I, of course, come from a jurisdiction where it is

22 entirely usual and spent 20 years cross-examining witnesses,

23 whether the prosecuting or defending, in these circumstances.

24 But the Prosecutors here perhaps feel that they are unable to,

25 and it is really a matter for the Court.

26 May I say that the name of this witness was supplied

27 quite a few weeks ago and the subject that he was to give

28 evidence upon. It is really a matter for the Court whether

Page 6603

1 sufficient foundation for adjourning his cross-examination has

2 been laid by the Prosecution.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger? Rule 67(A)(ii)(a) provides that,

4 "The Defence shall notify the Prosecutor of its intent to

5 offer: (a) the defence of alibi; in which case the notification

6 shall specify the place or places at which the accused claims to

7 have been present at the time of the alleged crime" -- that has

8 been done -- "and the names and addresses of witnesses" -- has

9 that been done? The names, I know it has; I do not know whether

10 the addresses or not. I am just trying to enquire about the

11 Rule.

12 MR. TIEGER: We were provided with the name of the witness. As the

13 Court is also aware, we made an effort, a very painstaking

14 effort, to interview witnesses and in each and every case that

15 was not possible and the effort was frustrated. I would also

16 mention that I think Mr. Kay indicated that we were provided

17 with a name which, under these circumstances, did not give us a

18 chance to develop more information and also the subject the

19 Defence notified us that this witness would be testifying about

20 was "Kozarac".

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What about the names and the addresses? Did

22 you get the address?

23 MR. TIEGER: We did, your Honour. As the Court is aware, we went to

24 the location and contacted the witness for that specific

25 purpose, along with many other witnesses.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then the Rule says, "... and other evidence

27 upon which the accused intends to rely to establish the alibi".

28 Mr. Kay?

Page 6604

1 MR. KAY: Yes. As your Honour has seen, this witness's name was on a

2 document within the Prosecution province. One would have

3 thought that that would have been something anyway that would

4 have been an indication to them about the subject matter. We

5 have cross-examined witnesses in the months and weeks before our

6 case started with very little information, sometimes a four line

7 proffer or a seven line proffer and the witness gave evidence

8 for two days. Without complaint, we got up and did our

9 cross-examination before the Court. I really think the

10 Prosecution here should be able to make use of their position.


12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I am sorry, but if I may respond to this?

13 Mr. Kay has made this representation before. I think the

14 suggestion is that in many of the cases the Defence received

15 only a bare bones proffer. He knows that is not accurate. I

16 have not totalled up the exact figures, but in the vast majority

17 of cases they received a full statement with which they

18 cross-examined at length, and in relatively few cases they

19 received a proffer -- in one case the proffer, I know, was

20 approximately 60 pages, in another case it was 10 pages. The

21 allegation that they conducted their cross-examination efforts

22 with the same kind of information the Prosecution has is wholly

23 inaccurate.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: My fellow Judges have no opposition, indeed,

25 they rather favour this request and I have no objection. So we

26 will allow the Prosecution to continue or begin, rather, the

27 cross-examination at a later date, on Tuesday, or if you are not

28 ready on Tuesday, you need to tell us in advance. We have two

Page 6605

1 other witnesses, rather, the Defence has two other witnesses, do

2 you not, to call today?

3 MR. KAY: It is actually one, your Honour. The other one was unable to

4 attend and attempts are still being made to try to locate him.

5 But there is no difficulty. Our other witness is waiting

6 outside Court. If we close the blinds, we can make the

7 arrangements. The next witness will be in open session, your

8 Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So if we close the blinds and then ask this

10 witness to leave, is that sufficient without taking a recess to

11 go into open session? I am asking the technical people. Can we

12 do that? Yes, we can. So we will just lower the blinds and

13 then the Prosecution's request is granted.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, what that means is that you are to return

16 to continue your testimony. So you are released today only, but

17 you should return again on Tuesday at 11.00 a.m., unless you

18 hear to the contrary from the Trial Chamber. So we will see you

19 next Tuesday at 11.00 a.m. Thank you. Sir, you are now free to

20 leave. Do you want to go out with him, Mr. Wladimiroff ----

21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, that is what I am asking.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- and perhaps explain better?

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes. I think we want to discuss the matter further

24 on later on, perhaps today, because it may have a lot of

25 implications for the witnesses. We have much trouble to fill

26 the batch for next week.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You mean that you may not have all of your

28 witnesses for next week?

Page 6606

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, what I am saying is that the travel

2 arrangements so far have been extremely difficult. Things have

3 been changed and then changed back because of all the incidents

4 we had last week. What I fear is if this is a new policy to be

5 developed, then we are really heading for trouble. So I have to

6 consider what our position on this matter will be.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have seven witnesses listed for next week.

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, that is right.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you having any problem getting them here?

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Some told us that they are available that week. It

11 causes a lot of trouble to have them for that week. If they are

12 here, they will have to stay another week, you see.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have worked with the Victims and Witnesses

14 Unit and I know the difficulty in bringing witnesses. So, sir,

15 you are excused. Mr. Wladimiroff will talk with you and, if

16 necessary, further explain. OK.

17 (The witness withdrew)

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, will you call the next witness?

19 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour, Dusan Vajagic.

20 MR. DUSAN VAJAGIC, called.

21 Examined by MR. KAY.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take the oath, please, that has

23 been handed to you.

24 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

26 (The witness was sworn)

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated. Mr. Kay, yes?

28 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

Page 6607

1 Q. Is your name Dusan Vajagic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you live in Kozarac at the moment?

4 A. At the moment I do.

5 Q. When did you start to live in Kozarac?

6 A. Since 2nd August 1992.

7 Q. Whereabouts did you live before that date of 2nd August 1992?

8 A. I lived in Velika Kladusa, in Velika Kladusa until 18th April

9 1992.

10 Q. Whereabouts in Velika Kladusa was that?

11 A. I lived at home and the street name was Poljane, No. 16.

12 Q. What happened in April 1992? Why did you not continue living in

13 Velika Kladusa?

14 A. When Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised, danger appeared because

15 the tensions mounted and there was -- my family and I were in

16 peril because I did not have with Muslims the kind of

17 communication I used to have before that and I felt threatened.

18 Q. The area where you lived in Velika Kladusa, which was the

19 dominant ethnic background?

20 A. The majority and, I should say, an overwhelming majority were

21 Muslims.

22 Q. Are you Serbian by ethnic background?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was your occupation, your job, in Velika Kladusa?

25 A. I was a car mechanic, I was trained as that, and I was also a

26 professional fireman for the Fire Brigade at Velika Kladusa.

27 Q. Were you a married man in April 1992?

28 A. Yes.

Page 6608

1 Q. Did you have children then?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who lived in the house that you had in Velika Kladusa?

4 A. I lived there, my wife and two daughters.

5 Q. When you left Velika Kladusa in April 1992 where did you go to?

6 A. I went to my native village which was Gradina, to my father's

7 home.

8 Q. How far away from Velika Kladusa was Gradina?

9 A. About 20 kilometres.

10 Q. Did others move as well from that place where you were living in

11 Velika Kladusa, from your area, at the same time in April 1992?

12 A. By and large, yes.

13 Q. For how long did you stay in Gradina?

14 A. I stayed there until late July.

15 Q. Who was living at your father's place at that time, in late

16 July?

17 A. Towards the end of July there was -- until we arrived there was

18 only my father and then we arrived and we were with him.

19 Q. Were there any other families living with you and your father at

20 his home in Gradina?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did there come a time when you left Gradina and moved elsewhere?

23 A. In late July we went to Banja, at present the Republic of

24 Croatia, once Republic Serb Krajina.

25 Q. When you went to Banja, was that you and your family and your

26 father or just the family?

27 A. We left, all of us, that is, all Serbs from the village left,

28 pulled out and went to Banja.

Page 6609

1 Q. Why did you leave then the village of Gradina?

2 A. We left because we had to leave, because of Muslim provocations

3 and attacks on the territory of Gradina and other Serb villages

4 there within the Velika Kladusa municipality.

5 Q. So what was happening? What were these attacks?

6 A. There were armed provocations, assaults and, how should I put

7 it, we were not safe there. We could not sleep in our -- at

8 home in that village because we were afraid of Muslims.

9 Q. So for how long did you stay in Banja?

10 A. On Banja I stayed until 2nd August 1992.

11 Q. Why did you leave Banja on 2nd August 1992?

12 A. I moved to the territory of the municipality of Prijedor. On

13 Banja, there was -- I had nowhere to be because I was there only

14 temporarily.

15 Q. What was the reason for moving into the territory of the

16 municipality of Prijedor?

17 A. I moved -- I settled in the territory of the municipality of

18 Prijedor so that I could, how shall I put it, organise my life,

19 so that my -- I and my family could live, so that my children

20 could go to school because I did not have such possibilities

21 there.

22 Q. How long had you lived in your previous home in Velika Kladusa

23 where you had been until April 1992?

24 A. In my house, in Velika Kladusa, I lived since 1984.

25 Q. When you came into the municipality of Prijedor on 2nd August

26 1992, did you travel with other Serbian families who had also

27 left the region in the Krajina?

28 A. Yes.

Page 6610

1 Q. About how many families left with you?

2 A. I would not know the exact number, but I should say about 100 to

3 150. I do not know exactly.

4 Q. Did you bring the possessions you had with you that you had

5 previously owned when you lived in your house for over 10 years

6 or nearly 10 years in Velika Kladusa?

7 A. I did bring something.

8 Q. When you arrived in the territory of the municipality of

9 Prijedor on 2nd August 1992, whereabouts did you stay at first?

10 A. I found some lodgings in Kozarac in a house which was allocated

11 to me by the accommodation commission.

12 Q. Was that allocated to you on that day of 2nd August when you

13 arrived?

14 A. I arrived to that house on 2nd August, and it was a few days

15 before that when the commission decided which would be the house

16 where I would be put up.

17 Q. Is that the house where you are presently living?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you moved to Kozarac in 1992, did you bring the rest of

20 your family with you, your wife and two daughters?

21 A. With me my wife came to Kozarac, and a few days later I went

22 back to Banja and brought my children.

23 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us when you first met Dusko Tadic?

26 A. I met Dusko Tadic towards the end of August 1992 or early

27 September. It was the end of August or beginning of September.

28 Q. Can you remember where it was when you first met him?

Page 6611

1 A. I met him on premises of the school in Kozarac where the police

2 station had been established and the local community, Local

3 Commune.

4 Q. Why was it that you met Dusko Tadic in that place at that time?

5 A. Towards the end of August I became part of the reserve police

6 force. It was established there and that was when I met Dusko

7 Tadic.

8 Q. That is the reserve police force that was working in Kozarac, is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What could you tell us about Dusko Tadic when you first met

12 him? What did he do?

13 A. He was a member of the reserve police force. He was the

14 Secretary of the Serb -- no, excuse me, the President of the

15 Serb Democratic Party for the Local Commune of Kozarac and he

16 was the Secretary of the Local Commune.

17 Q. Did you have many dealings with Dusko Tadic, first of all, as

18 President of the local SDS Party?

19 A. After some time, some 15 or 20 days later, yes.

20 Q. What dealings did you have with Dusko Tadic?

21 A. At the time I also joined the Serb Democratic Party, so that

22 I also attended meetings which were quite frequent at the time,

23 and that is why we often met as members of that Party.

24 Q. What was the purpose of these meetings? Why were they held?

25 A. The meetings were held mostly so as to try to organise life in

26 Kozarac which was almost non-existent at that time, to organise

27 the life of those people, of all those people, who had come

28 there, who had moved in.

Page 6612

1 Q. What was the condition of and state of Kozarac at that time in

2 August 1992?

3 A. Well, it was damaged. After combat operations, there were quite

4 a number of damaged buildings. There was no electricity. The

5 water supply system was damaged. Telephones were out of work.

6 Q. What people were living in Kozarac at this time?

7 A. I do not understand.

8 Q. Who was in Kozarac at this time? Who was living there?

9 A. Then at that time Serbs lived there, if you mean of what origin.

10 Q. Had all those Serbs come from Kozarac? Were they local Serbs

11 from Kozarac or were they Serbs from elsewhere as well?

12 A. No, there were Serbs from all or almost from across

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, from Livno, Jajce, Bugojno, Mostar, Velika

14 Kladusa, Bihac.

15 Q. Were they refugees like you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were there more refugees, in fact, than local Serbs, Serbs who

18 came from the town of Kozarac?

19 A. Yes, there were more refugees.

20 Q. Did these people have problems that needed to be sorted out?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What kind of problems were they?

23 A. The first problem was the accommodation of those refugees.

24 These people had to be allocated some houses or some plots of

25 land where they would work. Water supply had to be provided,

26 some kind of means of transportation to the town of Prijedor.

27 There was no electricity, so that had to be resolved and so on

28 and so forth.

Page 6613

1 Q. Was there a school for the children?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Was there any sort of fire service?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Telephone service?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Any sort of hospital or first aid clinic?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You told us that Dusko Tadic was the Secretary of the Local

10 Commune.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know what he did as Secretary of the Local Commune?

13 A. Mostly all the business, all the affairs, which concerned the

14 organisation of life in the area, and all this was done by the

15 Secretary of the Local Commune.

16 Q. For how long did you work as a reserve policeman at Kozarac

17 police station?

18 A. From 25th August 1992 until 20th January 1996.

19 Q. In 1992 what were your duties as a reserve policeman from

20 Kozarac? What did you do?

21 A. That year most of the -- the principal duty of the reserve

22 police was security and guarding of the villages at the

23 foothills of Kozara and the population especially and during

24 night hours.

25 Q. Did you ever become Secretary of the local SDS in Kozarac?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. When was that?

28 A. I would not know the date.

Page 6614

1 Q. Was it in 1992 or after 1992?

2 A. It was '92.

3 Q. Had you been a member of the SDS before you joined the Party in

4 August or September 1992?

5 A. No, I was not a member before that, and I joined the Party not

6 in August. It was sometime later, perhaps September, October.

7 I cannot remember exactly.

8 Q. How soon after you had joined the SDS Party did you become

9 Secretary of the local Kozarac SDS?

10 A. Well, it could have been a month, a month and a half. I do not

11 know exactly. I cannot remember.

12 Q. Had you ever joined a political party before this time in 1992?

13 A. Yes, I was a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia

14 since -- from 1976 to 1985.

15 Q. When you became Secretary of the local SDS in Kozarac, had you

16 read many political books about the thoughts and philosophy of

17 the people who were in charge of the SDS?

18 A. No, I had no time for such things.

19 Q. Had you read in any depth about the politics of the SDS, perhaps

20 its administration, organisation, how it worked? Did you know

21 anything about that?

22 A. A little. I was not really familiar with it because I am

23 telling you I did not have time. I was simply too busy

24 elsewhere, and I joined the SDS so that I could help the

25 population which had moved there in the first place, to have a

26 contact with Prijedor because somebody had to represent that

27 population or ask something on behalf of that population in

28 Kozarac.

Page 6615

1 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

3 (4.00 p.m.)

4 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

5 (4.20 p.m.)

6 MR. DUSAN VAJAGIC, recalled.

7 Examined by MR. KAY, continued.


9 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Vajagic, you had dealings with Mr. Tadic as Secretary of the

11 local SDS as well as through his involvement in the Local

12 Commune. How did he spend his time? What work was he doing?

13 A. At the meetings of the local committee of the SDS of Kozarac,

14 and there were about 12 to 15 members of the local committee, I

15 do not know the exact number but, anyway, at these meetings we

16 would agree as to what needed to be done. This was some kind of

17 preparation for work and you assign, make assignments, assign

18 duties for different people for different things. Since Dusko

19 Tadic was the Secretary of the local community and President of

20 the SDS, his duties were most numerous. Everything revolved

21 around him. The whole organisation of work went through his

22 desk, so to speak.

23 Q. Did he work hard at this job?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So did he spend any time actually making these ideas and

26 policies and decisions work? Did he himself get involved in

27 helping to rebuild the local community?

28 A. Yes, at the meetings of the local committee we would agree as to

Page 6616

1 what needed to be done. We would divide, distribute, the

2 duties, assignments, and usually most of the assignments went to

3 Dusko Tadic especially when something needed to be done in the

4 municipal town hall, in the power utility, the postal service,

5 the veterinary station, the schools, so that we could organise

6 repairs of our school and so on. Most of these contacts had, in

7 fact, been allotted to Dusko Tadic as the Secretary of the local

8 committee and local community.

9 Q. For how long were you Secretary of the local Kozarac SDS?

10 A. I was Secretary, I do not know exactly how long. I forget the

11 dates now when I started on that post and then when I ended, so

12 I cannot answer very precisely, but I was in that position in

13 1993, the whole of 1993, and part of 1994.

14 Q. In 1992, from your dealings with Dusko Tadic, could you tell if

15 he was involved in Trnopolje camp in any way?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did any of the work that you and he and others were involved in

18 also require you to do any work in or around Trnopolje camp?

19 A. No. We had nothing to do and we had no contact with that part

20 of the country, with Trnopolje, which had a collection centre,

21 because that part belonged to another Local Commune and we had

22 no authority and no jurisdiction, so to speak, over that part of

23 the country.

24 Q. Are you able to describe the character of Dusko Tadic from your

25 dealings with him?

26 A. Mostly, I do not know how to put it, I did not have the -- I did

27 have the impression of a man who is a family man, a man who was

28 willing and eager to help the people, so he was a good man

Page 6617

1 trying to help. I never had an opportunity to notice him

2 involved in any kinds of clashes or conflicts with people or

3 quarrel. He was not a quarrelling person at all. He was not a

4 drinker, as far as I know. So that is what I could tell you.

5 MR. KAY: Your Honour, at this stage we ask that the Court go into

6 closed session to deal with a matter that the Court ruled upon

7 earlier today and we know that this witness will be able to

8 assist. I have spoken to Mr. Niemann about it during the short

9 adjournment.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will need five minutes and we will then

11 return and we will be in closed session.

12 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

13 (4.30 p.m.)

14 (Adjourned for a short time)















Page 6618















15 Pages 6618 to 6629 redacted in closed session














Page 6630

1 (Open Session)

2 (5.05 p.m.)


4 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

5 MR. DUSAN VAJAGIC, continued.

6 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN.

7 Q. Sir, could you tell me your date of birth?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is switched off.

9 THE WITNESS: 19th November 1956.

10 Q. What was your father's name?

11 A. Milos.

12 Q. Thank you. You said in your evidence that you approached the

13 accommodation commission for a house when you first arrived in

14 the opstina Prijedor, is that right?

15 A. No, the commission had made a list, a survey of houses before

16 I arrived.

17 Q. I see. You do not know when that list had been compiled?

18 A. Well, not long before our arrival.

19 Q. So you then consulted this list, did you, when you arrived in

20 the Kozarac area?

21 A. No, I could not see the list. I was simply told that I was to

22 be accommodated in that particular house.

23 Q. Who told you that?

24 A. A man who was on the commission, who was responsible for this.

25 Q. On the accommodation commission?

26 A. Yes. Yes, of the commission which had took stock of which, had

27 taken stock of the houses available and those families which

28 were arriving. They also had a list of families which were

Page 6631

1 arriving, and they followed the list down and they had the list

2 of houses and on the basis of that they allocated houses.

3 Q. What was the name of the man that was on the commission that

4 told you what particular house you were to have?

5 A. It was a man from my village, from my native village, from

6 Gradina, because we had three men whom we assigned on Banja

7 before we left, three men who were sent to Prijedor and worked

8 with the commission appointed by the municipality of Prijedor to

9 do precisely that.

10 Q. What was his name?

11 A. I know all three members of the commission, from Gradina, that

12 is.

13 Q. OK. Can you tell me the names of all three members that you

14 knew?

15 A. Yes, I can. They were [redacted], Nikola Guglata, and Dusan

16 Mitrovic.

17 Q. Which one did you approach or which one told you that you could

18 have the house that you moved into?

19 A. It was Dusan Mitrovic who told me that.

20 Q. Apart from these three members that were on the accommodation

21 commission, were there any people from the local area of

22 Prijedor, Kozarac in particular, who were represented on this

23 commission?

24 A. I heard from us that there was a three-member commission from

25 Prijedor, but I do not know the names.

26 Q. You do not know their names. When you were allocated this house

27 were you given a key or a titled document or some sort of

28 written authority or just told to turn up there?

Page 6632

1 A. When I arrived in Kozarac on 2nd August I was told, I was shown

2 that I was to move into that house without any papers or keys.

3 One did not need the key because the house was open.

4 Q. Who showed you the house?

5 A. Dusan Mitrovic, the member of the commission.

6 Q. This house had belonged to a Muslim family previously, had it?

7 A. I guess so, most probably, because I do not know. I did not

8 live there before, so ....

9 Q. So you were given no paper. Did you have to sign any documents

10 to say that you were taking over this house?

11 A. Not then.

12 Q. You did not have to pay anything at all, I take it, when you

13 took over the house?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you find any furniture or other documents in the house when

16 you moved into it?

17 A. There was furniture.

18 Q. That furniture obviously did not belong to you?

19 A. No, it did not belong to me, but I found it, I mean, it was in

20 the house when I entered and I went on using it.

21 Q. Had you been to this area in Kozarac before August 1992?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you know anything about the ratio or the proportions of Serb

24 people in the area of Kozarac to other nationalities such as

25 Muslims or Croats?

26 A. You mean in the area of Kozarac?

27 Q. In Kozarac, yes.

28 A. No.

Page 6633

1 Q. There was obviously previously many more Muslims, was there not,

2 than Serbs by the number of available houses in the area?

3 A. Very likely.

4 Q. Just from common sense and general observations you could have

5 concluded that because of the available accommodation that was

6 there, that prior to 1992 in the Kozarac region the Serbian

7 people would have been in the minority, that is right, is it

8 not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Tadic was an extremely important man in the local area, was

11 he not?

12 A. He was a man in the Local Commune. He was also on the SDS, but

13 when we had already settled in, later on. I do not know what

14 happened before I arrived, but when I met him he was already

15 discharging those duties that I spoke about earlier.

16 Q. In the local area of Kozarac he was the most important man, was

17 he not?

18 A. I do not know.

19 Q. In your evidence-in-chief you described him as being a person,

20 all the business, all the affairs which concerned the

21 organisation of life in the area, all this done by the Secretary

22 of the Local Commune. Now someone responsible and concerned for

23 the organisation of life in the area would be extremely

24 important, would he not?

25 A. Yes, he worked but other people helped him. He was not all by

26 himself.

27 Q. Of course.

28 A. But he was the first among the others.

Page 6634

1 Q. Yes, and I think you go on a little further in your

2 evidence-in-chief to describe him in his capacity as President

3 of the SDS, that everything revolved around him, that is the

4 accused?

5 A. Well, by and large all the meetings that were organised were

6 convened by him as President, and assignments were allocated at

7 those meetings.

8 Q. You say that you later joined the SDS party and indeed became

9 the secretary of the party in the local area, secretary of the

10 SDS, is that right?

11 A. Yes, at a meeting of the local board, simply those people on the

12 local board as they were mostly farmers, there were very few

13 people with some education and that is how they nominated me as

14 a secretary and others accepted and that is how I became the

15 secretary of the local SDS board in Kozarac.

16 Q. That was a very important position too, was it not?

17 A. Well, had circumstances been normal, then perhaps you could have

18 said, you could say that because there was this vacancy which

19 had to be filled, but because of some other things, because of

20 other reasons, it was not all that important.

21 Q. It was the only party that was operational in the area, was it

22 not, at the time?

23 A. Yes, as far as I know in Kozarac.

24 Q. What I mean to say is in Kozarac you did not have in the local

25 school a meeting of the SDS and in the Post Office a meeting of

26 the HDZ, and in some other location a meeting of the SDA going

27 on all at the same time, did you?

28 A. I did not -- I fail to understand you.

Page 6635

1 Q. I am sorry. I will not press it. In order to achieve things

2 throughout the opstina of Prijedor, the approval of the SDS was

3 necessary, was it not? It was the controlling political party?

4 A. It was a political party, but as far as I know at that time we

5 all acted in a similar way, both those who were involved in

6 party activity and those who were not members of the party, so

7 as to organise their life in Kozarac, simply to survive there.

8 We came, we had fled from other areas, and we had had to live

9 somewhere, we had to organise ourselves somehow.

10 Q. But being at that time in 1992, in the fall of 1992 being a

11 member of the SDA would not have been terribly influential,

12 would it?

13 A. I do not know.

14 Q. You do not know. Did you meet the secretary of the SDA at any

15 stage after you were made secretary of the SDS for the Kozarac

16 area?

17 A. No, because there was no SDA in our territory at the time.

18 Q. That is primarily because most of its members had been removed

19 from the area, that is right, is it not?

20 A. I am really at a loss how to answer this.

21 Q. Take your time.

22 A. I came to Kozarac in August '92. I did not find Muslims there.

23 I do not know when they left or how or whether there had been

24 any other inhabitants there. I know what the situation was on

25 2nd August when I moved in. Whether there had been an SDA

26 before that or not I would not know.

27 Q. You knew that the SDS was primarily committed in terms of the

28 its political philosophy to obtaining an area, a homeland, for

Page 6636

1 the Serbian people, did you not?

2 A. It wanted to provide freedom, a free life for its people. You

3 can say some fatherland for its people where they could live.

4 Q. That was its objective?

5 A. I did not understand?

6 Q. That was the objective of the SDS party, was it not, to obtain a

7 territory for the Serbian people?

8 A. As far as I could understand it and can understand it, not to

9 obtain a territory, but to preserve life of people and the Serb

10 people in that part, if you want to put it that way, or in

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina at large.

12 Q. Indeed to cleanse that territory of people who were not of the

13 same Serbian nationality, that is right, is it not?

14 A. No, I did not say that, nor did I understand it that way.

15 Q. You told us a moment ago that obviously there must have been a

16 considerable Muslim population there and that when you arrived

17 they were not there any more. You tell us you do not know what

18 happened to them?

19 A. I do not know if it was large. Probably it was, but I do not

20 know because I was not there.

21 Q. Well, the people, the Muslim people that were there were not

22 there when you arrived. They had left, had they not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You knew that clearing the land of the Muslim people was an

25 objective of the SDS party?

26 A. No, that was not the objective, and I left my home and my

27 father's home. I had to live somewhere, so I came where I was

28 offered, where I could live and organise my life.

Page 6637

1 Q. You came to an area that had been cleansed under the authority

2 and auspices of the SDS, did you not?

3 A. I do not know that.

4 Q. So, when you arrived at that place, so far as you knew, it could

5 well be a Muslim stronghold?

6 A. I was not there at the time and I do not know what could have

7 been there.

8 Q. I am saying when you came, at the time that you came in August

9 of 1992, you knew that it was controlled by the Serbs and that

10 it had been cleansed of Muslims, you knew that, did you not?

11 A. We knew that the area was under Serb control, but whether it had

12 been cleansed, we did not know that.

13 Q. When you say it was under Serb control, politically it was under

14 the control of the SDS, that is right, is it not?

15 A. In all likelihood, but at that time I was not a member of the

16 SDS yet.

17 Q. But you then did become the secretary for the local area?

18 A. Later, yes.

19 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions at this stage, your Honour.


21 MR. KAY: Nothing at this stage, your Honour.

22 Examined by the Court.

23 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, a couple of questions I wanted to ask you.

24 The first one was, when you saw Mr. Tadic during the period that

25 he was secretary of the SDS and you were working with him in

26 Kozarac, was he wearing a uniform at all times or at no time?

27 A. Dusan Tadic was the President of the local SDS board and not the

28 secretary. In the beginning while he was on the Reserve Police

Page 6638

1 Force he did have a uniform.

2 Q. What sort of uniform was that? What did it look like, just very

3 roughly, what colour?

4 A. He had a conventional multi-coloured, camouflage uniform.

5 Q. Then later he ceased to wear a uniform and wore ordinary

6 civilian clothes, did he?

7 A. Yes, when he left the Reserve Police Force he wore civilian

8 clothes.

9 Q. About when did that happen, can you put a month to it?

10 A. Sometime towards the end of October or in the early days of

11 November '92. I do not remember exactly, but it was roughly

12 about the time.

13 Q. Yes. A quite different question. You succeeded Mr. Tadic in

14 1992 as secretary of the commune -- I am sorry, as secretary of

15 the local branch of the SDS?

16 A. No, Dusan Tadic was the President ----

17 Q. I see.

18 A. --- of the board, as you put it, but he was the President of the

19 local, the chairman of the local board of the SDS. When

20 I joined it I became the secretary of the local board of the SDS

21 and these are two different positions.

22 Q. Yes, of course. I follow. You then served with him on the

23 board of the SDS, he as President and you as secretary, after

24 you were appointed. Then at sometime he ceased to be President,

25 did he?

26 A. Yes, he ceased to being a President when he left Kozarac.

27 Q. Yes. About when was that, again just a month?

28 A. As far as I can remember, it was sometime in mid '93. I cannot

Page 6639

1 be more exact, but it must be towards the middle of 1993.

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes. Thank you.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you know why Mr. Tadic left Kozarac in, was

4 it mid-1993? Do you know why he left Kozarac and where he went?

5 A. No. No, I do not know.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Kay?

7 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.


9 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This witness will be recalled on Tuesday.

11 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Sir, you are free to leave now, but

13 you should return Tuesday -- how are we going to handle the

14 order of witnesses on Tuesday? Well, you lawyers will work it

15 out, but you are to return on Tuesday of next week to continue

16 your testimony, sir.

17 We are now adjourned until Tuesday at 11 a.m.

18 (5.30 p.m.)

19 (The court adjourned until Tuesday, 8th October 1996)