Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7060

1 Tuesday, 15th October 1996.

2 (Open session)

3 (10.00 a.m.)

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This morning and continuing through this week

5 we will be receiving testimony via video conferencing equipment

6 from the former Yugoslavia. The Defence will be calling

7 witnesses -- are you ready to proceed, Mr. Kay?

8 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. The first witness we call by video link

9 is Zeljko Maric.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, can you hear me? Mr. Marro, the

11 first witness the Defence calls is Mr. Zeljko Maric. He is

12 listed as No. 33 on the Defence witness list. The last name is

13 spelt -- yes, we are ready -- Zeljko M-A-R-I-C. Would you

14 please ask that he come in?

15 Mr. Marro, would you please administer the oath to

16 Mr. Maric?

17 ^^ ZELJKO MARIC, called

18 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

20 (The witness was sworn)

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Maric, you may be seated.

22 Mr. Kay, you may begin.

23 Examined by MR. KAY

24 Q. Is your name Zeljko Maric?

25 A. [In translation] Yes.

26 Q. Do you work as a policeman in Prijedor?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Do you live in Prijedor?

Page 7061

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Are you a married man with two children?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When did you first start to work as a policeman in Prijedor?

5 A. In 1980.

6 Q. You are still in that occupation as a regular police officer?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Which part of the police do you work in?

9 A. I am a traffic policeman.

10 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have received a dark signal now. The video

12 is quashed. So we need to stop -- here, it has come back.

13 MR. KAY: I will repeat the last question again. [To the witness]:

14 In which part of the police force do you work in Prijedor?

15 A. I am a traffic policeman.

16 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. For how long have you known Dusko Tadic?

19 A. I have known Dusko Tadic since 1980.

20 Q. How did you meet Dusko Tadic?

21 A. During performing my regular duties, during traffic control and

22 the like.

23 Q. Did you train at karate with Dusko Tadic?

24 A. No, I did not. I was taught by our common friend, Emir

25 Karabasic.

26 Q. How well did you know Emir Karabasic?

27 A. Quite well, because we completed secondary school together at

28 the Police Academy.

Page 7062

1 Q. Was that in Sarajevo?

2 A. Yes, in Sarajevo.

3 Q. Did your duties as a traffic policeman take you on occasions to

4 Kozarac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know a lot of people in the town of Kozarac?

7 A. I knew quite a number of people.

8 Q. Can you recollect when the conflict started in 1992 in Kozarac?

9 A. I think it was around the month of June.

10 Q. Have you ever worked with Dusko Tadic as a policeman?

11 A. Yes.

12 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. The interpreter could not hear that.

13 MR. KAY: I will repeat the question. Have you ever worked with

14 Dusko Tadic as a policeman?

15 A. At the checkpoint in Orlovci I did work with Dusko Tadic.

16 Q. Was that before or after the conflict in Kozarac?

17 A. It was after the conflict in Kozarac.

18 Q. Can you recollect with whom Dusko Tadic worked when he was at

19 the checkpoint Orlovci?

20 A. In his shift there were also Cvijic -- I cannot remember the

21 names now, perhaps later.

22 Q. At this time did you ever work on any shifts at checkpoint

23 Orlovci?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was that on the same shift as Dusko Tadic or a different shift?

26 A. Sometimes we worked in the same shift, but most frequently we

27 did not work together. He was the shift either before mine or

28 after mine.

Page 7063

1 Q. Were you in any position of command in relation to checkpoint

2 Orlovci?

3 A. I was, shall we say, the leader of the shift, but I do not think

4 that can be called a command position.

5 Q. Can you recollect for how long Dusko Tadic worked at checkpoint

6 Orlovci? I will repeat that question, your Honour.

7 Can you recollect for how long Dusko Tadic worked at

8 checkpoint Orlovci?

9 A. I think around two months.

10 Q. At the time Dusko Tadic worked at checkpoint Orlovci, do you

11 know where he lived?

12 A. I think he was living in Prijedor.

13 Q. Did you ever spend any time off duty with Dusko Tadic?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you ever spend time talking to him whilst you were both

16 working together or on police duty with each other?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How would you describe Dusko Tadic's behaviour during that

19 period of time that you came across him at checkpoint Orlovci?

20 A. He behaved quite normally, like most people at that time.

21 Q. Did you ever discuss events that were happening at that time

22 with him?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he ever express any extreme nationalist views to you?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Did he ever express nationalist views in support of the Serbs

27 against other ethnic groups in the region?

28 A. No.

Page 7064

1 Q. Did you discuss those sorts of matters, what was happening at

2 that time, with each other?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What sort of attitude would you say Dusko Tadic had to those

5 matters?

6 A. Dusko Tadic was in the first place a sportsman, so that most of

7 the time we spent discussing sports and people in sports, but it

8 was inevitable to touch on politics as well and the events that

9 had taken place there at that time. I conclude from all our

10 talks that Dusko Tadic condemned everything that was happening,

11 including the war and everything that was happening to the

12 people in our part of the world.

13 Q. Did you discuss with him what had happened to Kozarac?

14 A. Yes, we did.

15 Q. What was his attitude about the state of Kozarac, about what had

16 happened to it?

17 A. Kozarac is his place of birth which means that he loves it, and

18 that is why he denounced the way that things had happened and

19 what had happened in Kozarac.

20 Q. When you were on a different shift to Dusko Tadic, did you ever

21 speak to each other at the handover of one shift to the other?

22 A. Yes, frequently I would be handing over my shift to him or the

23 other way round and waiting for transportation, or on some other

24 occasions we would sit and talk about those events.

25 Q. Can you identify for us where checkpoint Orlovci is in relation

26 to Prijedor and Kozarac?

27 A. It is about halfway between Kozarac and Prijedor.

28 Q. Is there a particular town or village at the site of the

Page 7065

1 checkpoint?

2 A. Yes, the village is called Orlovci.

3 Q. Is it just called "Orlovci" or is it prefixed with "Donji" or

4 "Gornji"?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The monitor has gone blank again.

6 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. I will repeat the question when we get

7 back on. It does seem the quality is improving as we proceed.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, it does.

9 MR. KAY [To the witness]: Is it just called "Orlovci" or is it

10 prefixed with "Donji" or "Gornji"?

11 A. It is called "Gornji Orlovci".

12 Q. At the site, checkpoint, are there houses on either side of the

13 road?

14 A. From the direction of Kozarac there are more houses on the

15 right-hand side.

16 Q. Is it on the new Banja Luka/Prijedor highway or what is known as

17 the old Banja Luka/Prijedor road?

18 A. It is -- that is the place where the two roads, the old and the

19 new one, intersect, the Banja Luka/Prijedor roads.

20 Q. Is the place of the checkpoint actually sited on the new road?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are there roads to houses on either side, small lanes that move

23 up to Gornji Orlovci on one side and down on the other side?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is there still a checkpoint to this day, although not in the

26 same form but a place where the police often stand by a vehicle

27 on the side of the road to observe traffic?

28 A. Yes, the checkpoint in the sense it used to be no longer exists,

Page 7066

1 but the road is there, and the police is performing its normal

2 duties, both there and elsewhere.

3 Q. At the site of this checkpoint, is there a large tree?

4 A. Yes, there is a walnut tree there.

5 Q. If you were approaching Prijedor from Kozarac, would that be on

6 the right-hand side of the road?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In 1992 can you describe what form the checkpoint took at this

9 place in the road, how it was set up?

10 A. Are you thinking of our duties or the actual buildings?

11 Q. The actual buildings, was it a barrier, was there some other

12 form of causing the traffic to slow down? Can you describe how

13 the point was set up in the road?

14 A. From the direction of Kozarac towards Prijedor, on the

15 right-hand side there was a container in which the policemen

16 were accommodated and on the road itself there were signs of

17 warning and speed reduction, so that vehicles and drivers moving

18 along the Prijedor/Banka Luka road could easily be stopped and

19 checked, both vehicles, drivers and the goods, and these

20 buildings were easily visible. At night there was a lamp.

21 There were signs of warning posted there and other necessary

22 signs.

23 Q. You said a container was by the side of the road. Can you tell

24 us what you mean by that?

25 A. A container is actually a prefabricated edifice about four

26 metres long and two metres wide, similar to those being used

27 today by the military.

28 Q. Is it right that the container is no longer there today?

Page 7067

1 MR. KAY: I will repeat that question, your Honour.

2 Q. Is it right that the container is no longer there today?

3 A. That is right. It is no longer there.

4 Q. Can you tell us when the container was taken away?

5 A. I think it was in 1996.

6 Q. Can you tell us if the container was there before the conflict

7 in Kozarac?

8 A. Well, I think it was placed there when the checkpoint was

9 established.

10 Q. Was this just a police checkpoint or was there also a military

11 presence?

12 A. There were members of the military police present also.

13 Q. Did they also operate on a shift system?

14 A. Yes. We worked together.

15 Q. How many members of the military police would make up each

16 shift?

17 A. One or two.

18 Q. Did they have the same shift patterns as the civil police?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. How many people were in your Unit when you were on duty at the

21 checkpoint?

22 A. Most frequently there were four men, sometimes less, sometimes

23 more, but most frequently there were four.

24 Q. When you were on duty at this checkpoint, were all the police

25 that you were on duty with armed with weapons?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. What type of weapons would they be?

28 A. We had pistols and automatic rifles.

Page 7068

1 Q. Were those weapons issued by the police in Prijedor?

2 A. Yes, those are our weapons belonging to the police.

3 Q. Were there any other checkpoints beyond Orlovci as you travelled

4 towards Kozarac?

5 A. It depends on the period we are talking about.

6 Q. The period I am asking you about is June and July 1992.

7 A. There was another checkpoint just before reaching Kozarac, but

8 it was smaller and it was of short duration.

9 Q. Was that checkpoint still in place after the conflict in

10 Kozarac?

11 A. No, it was there for a very short period and then it was

12 abolished.

13 Q. Can you recollect when it was abolished?

14 A. I do not know. I cannot remember.

15 Q. Did your work at checkpoint Orlovci come under the traffic

16 police department of Prijedor police station?

17 A. Yes, as I said, we checked drivers, vehicles and goods.

18 Q. What was the name of your Commander for the traffic police at

19 this time?

20 A. Duro Tupic (sic).

21 Q. I think that is "Prpos", your Honour. Is he still the Commander

22 of the traffic police today?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When did he cease to be the Commander of the traffic police?

25 When did Djuro Prpos cease to become the Commander of the

26 traffic police?

27 A. I cannot remember exactly, because since then two or three

28 Commanders have changed.

Page 7069

1 Q. What sort of Commander was Djuro Prpos like in June and July

2 1992?

3 A. I do not understand the question, but he was a professional

4 Commander.

5 Q. Was he vigilant as to the duties of the officers who worked

6 under him?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did he check that you were performing your duties?

9 A. Yes, he would come to check our duties.

10 Q. To check your duties, did that mean to check that everyone was

11 present who should have been?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did he like the men who served under him to be in proper

14 discipline?

15 A. Yes, he required discipline ---- (Pause).

16 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I will repeat the last question again.

17 Q. Mr. Maric, I will repeat the last question again. Can you tell

18 the Court what the approach was of Djuro Prpos to discipline?

19 A. He required his subordinates to act in a professional manner.

20 Q. Would he have tolerated any of his policemen being drunk on

21 duty?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Would he have tolerated any of his policemen going absent from

24 their posts?

25 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, could I ask my friend not lead these

26 questions?

27 MR. KAY: I do not think it is a leading question, your Honour, to be

28 frank.

Page 7070

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Does it suggest an answer?

2 MR. KAY: The witness can say "yes" or "no".

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: "Yes" or "no". OK. Try not to lead.

4 MR. KAY: Yes. [To the witness]: Would he have tolerated any of his

5 policemen not being at their posts when they were meant to?

6 A. Our absence was allowed only during breakfast or at meal time,

7 so that we were obliged to be on duty at our post.

8 Q. Can you tell us how far the camp of Omarska would have been if

9 you had travelled in a vehicle from checkpoint Orlovci to the

10 camp at Omarska at that time in June or July 1992?

11 A. By car it would take roughly between 30 and 45 minutes to get

12 there.

13 Q. In June or July 1992 were the conditions of the roads better or

14 worse than they are today?

15 A. Worse.

16 Q. Were they worse because of the events that had taken place at

17 that time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you ever discuss Emir Karabasic with Dusko Tadic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What were those discussions about?

22 A. I said that both of them were sportsmen. They liked karate.

23 Dusko used to train Emir and our talks were related to their

24 joint successes or failures, sports competitions. They were

25 friends there, etc.

26 Q. After Dusko Tadic ceased to work at checkpoint Orlovci, did you

27 come across him in any of his later positions or jobs?

28 A. Yes, I think that after starting to work at Orlovci that he was

Page 7071

1 employed or he did something at the local community, Mesna

2 Zajednica, in Kozarac. So he would often travel from Kozarac to

3 Prijedor, so he would go through the checkpoint Orlovci.

4 Q. Did you continue working then at checkpoint Orlovci after Dusko

5 Tadic had ceased his duties there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. For how long did you continue to work at checkpoint Orlovci?

8 A. I think until 1995, sort of.

9 Q. I will ask the question again. When did you cease to work at

10 checkpoint Orlovci?

11 A. 1994, '95, I could not say exactly.

12 Q. Thank you. That is all I ask, but wait there. There will be

13 further questions of you.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, do you have cross-examination?

15 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

16 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN

17 Q. Witness, could you tell us, please, your date of birth?

18 A. 1960.

19 Q. What is your father's name?

20 A. Stojan.

21 Q. What is your mother's name?

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the name.

23 MR. NIEMANN: I am afraid we could not hear that name. Could you

24 repeat it for us, please?

25 A. Mira.

26 Q. What is your ethnicity?

27 A. I am a Serb.

28 Q. Do you have brothers and sisters?

Page 7072

1 A. I had a brother and I have a sister.

2 Q. What was your brother's name?

3 A. His name was Rajko.

4 Q. I think you said you live in Prijedor. Do you live in the town

5 of Prijedor or do you live out of Prijedor?

6 A. I live out of town.

7 Q. How far out of the town of Prijedor do you live?

8 A. The distance is about three and a half kilometres.

9 Q. In what direction is that place where you live?

10 A. The direction of the old part of the Prijedor/Banja Luka road.

11 Q. Did you live at this address in 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell us the name of the village or the nearest village

14 to where you live?

15 A. The place where I live is called Donji Orlovci.

16 Q. Were you living in Donji Orlovci in 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you were working as a traffic policeman in 1992, what was

19 your dress code? What uniform did you wear?

20 A. In the beginning of 1992 the police uniform was the one that we

21 had before the war, and then we got the camouflage uniforms.

22 Q. When did you get the camouflage uniforms?

23 A. I cannot remember exactly, but I think it was in June or July,

24 that period, I think. I cannot remember the date exactly.

25 Q. You spoke of having an automatic weapon. Were you also issued

26 with a pistol and a knife?

27 A. I had a pistol and an automatic rifle, but I did not have a

28 knife.

Page 7073

1 Q. You spoke of checking vehicles and the people that were

2 travelling in them. What were you looking for when you stopped

3 the vehicles?

4 A. We would ask them for their driver's licence and for the licence

5 of the vehicle itself, and we would also ask for an ID for the

6 passengers and the drivers and also for the freight, if they had

7 any.

8 Q. Dealing first with the people, what would happen if people

9 produced this identification and you checked it? What were you

10 looking for precisely?

11 A. I do not understand the question.

12 Q. If you found a person in a vehicle, his identification showed

13 that they come from the local area and that they were a Serb,

14 what would you do?

15 A. Nothing. If everything was normal, we would let people continue

16 to drive wherever they were going to.

17 Q. What did you consider to be abnormal?

18 A. I told you that emphasis was laid on traffic subject matters,

19 that is, drivers, whether they had driver's licences or not, and

20 the vehicle itself, was it technically in a good shape and

21 whether they had the proper documents and if they were carrying

22 freight whether they had the appropriate documents. So that is

23 the subject matter the traffic police deals with.

24 Q. By "freight" do you mean commercial freight or did you look at

25 people's personal possessions as well?

26 A. I meant commercial freight, yes.

27 Q. So you were not interested in, for example, weapons or

28 ammunition if that was in the vehicle?

Page 7074

1 A. It was the military police who were involved in that, but it was

2 not unusual at that time for people to carry weapons from the

3 front line or from somewhere else.

4 Q. In July 1992, if you found a Muslim driving a vehicle with a

5 weapon in the vehicle, what would you do?

6 A. It was the military police who were in charge, so we would hand

7 them over to the military police but there were no such cases.

8 Q. Do you know what happened to them once you handed them over to

9 the military police?

10 MR. KAY: I think he said there were no such cases, your Honour.

11 MR. NIEMANN: I will rephrase the question. What were you told to do

12 if you found Muslims with weapons driving motor vehicles that

13 come past your checkpoint?

14 A. I tell you, it was the military police that was in charge. So

15 such persons would be handed over to the military police, but we

16 did not have such cases.

17 Q. Do you know what the military police would have done with them

18 if you had found somebody with a vehicle with a Muslim in it who

19 had weapons?

20 A. They would probably question him to see where they got the

21 weapons from, etc.

22 Q. Before the conflict, did you perform patrols as a traffic

23 policeman?

24 A. Yes. Our traffic police station was in charge of the wider

25 area, so we also did that in Kozarac too.

26 Q. Did you do this work alone or with others?

27 A. Most often we would have two of us in the vehicle.

28 Q. Did you operate only from a vehicle or did you also operate from

Page 7075

1 fixed positions on the road?

2 A. I did not understand your question or, rather, I did not hear it

3 properly.

4 Q. I will repeat the question for you. Did you only operate out of

5 your police vehicle or did you operate also from fixed positions

6 or control points on roads?

7 A. Before the war, the traffic police carried out their duties in

8 terms of speed limits too, that is to say, we worked with

9 radars. We would stand at positions where exceeding the speed

10 limit would jeopardise traffic, so then we would check vehicles

11 and persons driving them -- everything that was within our

12 jurisdiction, so to speak.

13 Q. But would you do this only when you were operating out of your

14 police vehicle or was there fixed control points like the one at

15 Orlovci?

16 A. You mean before the war?

17 Q. Yes, before the war, sorry.

18 A. There were certain positions but they were not fixed. There

19 were not positions where you had to be. There was not a plan of

20 that sort. The plan would be worked out in accordance to things

21 that were actually taking place, traffic accidents, pedestrians,

22 the time of the day, the way in which this happened. That is

23 why we would take a certain position so that we would prevent

24 anything bad from happening.

25 Q. Did you ever see Dule Tadic in Prijedor before 22nd May 1992?

26 A. Yes, yes.

27 Q. When did you see him, and if you cannot be precise,

28 approximately?

Page 7076

1 A. Let me say that Dule Tadic was then just a normal person like

2 anybody else. Nobody really paid special attention to him. So

3 I would not really have to remember everything in connection

4 with him. So I saw him in '91 or '90 perhaps. I cannot

5 remember exactly.

6 Q. Did you see him in the early part of 1992 in Prijedor?

7 A. I do not know. I cannot remember.

8 Q. When you saw him in Prijedor where did you see him?

9 A. In passing, simply in passing.

10 Q. When you were on checkpoint at Orlovci in June/July 1992,

11 occasionally you would go away to the local houses, would you

12 not, and have coffee?

13 A. Rarely. It happened rarely.

14 Q. You would go home for lunch, would you not?

15 A. No, there was a restaurant near the checkpoint where we would go

16 for a brief meal, and during a certain period of time we even

17 had food brought to us to the checkpoint, so there was not any

18 need for us to leave the checkpoint itself.

19 Q. You said that during the conflict the police acted normally.

20 What did you mean by that?

21 A. Our regular police duties, that is to say, traffic control.

22 Q. But what you were doing at Orlovci was different to what you did

23 during peace time or before 1992, was it not?

24 A. Yes, during the war everything is different from what it was

25 before.

26 Q. So they were not acting normally then during the war? Did you

27 hear my last question?

28 A. I did not quite understand you.

Page 7077

1 Q. Never mind. How often did you work with Dule Tadic?

2 A. I think it was seldom, we would be on the same shift, I mean.

3 That would happen rarely.

4 Q. You cannot help us at all with the dates that you worked with

5 Dule Tadic?

6 A. I do not know really.

7 Q. You cannot tell us whether it was early June, late June, early

8 July, late July, mid June, mid July, something like that, you

9 cannot help us that way?

10 A. I do not know. I cannot remember.

11 Q. You worked with him on more than one occasion?

12 A. Yes, yes, yes.

13 Q. How did you know who was on Dule's shift, that is, on the

14 occasions when you were not on his shift?

15 A. Because I would see these people during shift handover.

16 Q. Can you remember the names of the Commanders of the traffic

17 police since Prpos was the Commander?

18 A. I think Obrad Despotovic.

19 Q. Is he the only one you can remember?

20 A. Yes, after that there were other people.

21 Q. Can you remember any of their names?

22 A. Jankovic. I think there were not any more than that.

23 Q. When you worked on the shift at Orlovci with Dule Tadic, do you

24 remember whether it was day-shift or night-shift?

25 A. It was a cycle. You did not only have day-shifts or

26 night-shifts, so you would go through an entire circle. People

27 would work for 12 hours and then you would rest for 24 hours,

28 etc.

Page 7078

1 Q. Do you know whether when you worked with Dule, or can you

2 remember when you worked with Dule Tadic, it was the day-shift

3 or the night-shift?

4 A. I think that once we were on the day-shift and once in the

5 night-shift.

6 Q. After you finished your shift you went home, did you?

7 A. It depends at what time it would be.

8 Q. What do you mean by that? When did you not go home?

9 A. There were points in time when we would not go home, when we

10 were supposed to go to the police station to see whether there

11 other tasks and duties awaiting us, and there were other times

12 when we would normally go home after our shift.

13 Q. The other tasks or duty that you had to perform that were

14 awaiting you, what were those types of duties? Can you describe

15 them for us?

16 A. The traffic police had checkpoints, so one of these checkpoints

17 was Orlovci, and it would happen that sometimes some of the

18 policemen would not come to work on time and then others would

19 have to carry out his duties.

20 Q. When you went home were you ever called up to go back on duty

21 after you had gone home for your two days off, your 24 hours off

22 -- sorry, your 24 hours off?

23 MR. NIEMANN: We have not got a translation of that.

24 THE INTERPRETER: What happened, it would happen.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Ask the witness. Witness, would you please

26 repeat your answer?

27 THE WITNESS: It would happen.

28 MR. NIEMANN: How often did it happen to you?

Page 7079

1 A. Yes. I cannot remember exactly.

2 Q. What was the procedure for changing shifts? How was this done?

3 A. Well, I would come to do my shift. I would get a report from my

4 colleague who had worked previously. He would say what happened

5 during his shift, what I should pay attention to, whether the

6 inventory was in order, etc.

7 Q. So, when you reported for duty, you were told when your next

8 duty was, is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You said sometimes you were told to pay attention to certain

11 matters. During that period, June/July 1992, can you remember

12 whether you were requested to pay attention to anything in

13 particular that you can bring to mind?

14 A. At that time, of course, the police carries out its regular

15 duties and tasks. However, if we are talking about

16 extraordinary tasks, then we are told what to do by telegram --

17 extraordinary tasks and duties, I mean.

18 Q. Can you tell us what the extraordinary tasks and duties were

19 during that time?

20 A. I cannot.

21 Q. You spoke of Dule Tadic being interested in sports. What kind

22 of competitions did Dule Tadic engage in?

23 A. Dule was the trainer of the sports club for karate from Kozarac

24 and he would take his sportsmen to various competitions to

25 different parts of Yugoslavia. I remember once he went to the

26 seaside, to Budva, I think, when my friend Karabasic injured his

27 foot at that competition.

28 Q. Do you know when ----

Page 7080

1 A. I think, I think it was in '82 or '83, I think.

2 Q. Do you ever recall him taking sportsmen outside of Yugoslavia or

3 is your recollection only of events or competitions taking place

4 within the former Yugoslavia?

5 A. I cannot remember any competition outside Yugoslavia.

6 Q. Did you ever read newspaper articles about his sporting

7 achievements or his involvement in sports?

8 A. No, I did not. All the information about sports I received from

9 Karabasic. He informed me about the progress he made, the belts

10 he won and the sporting activities and I enjoyed that.

11 Q. You suggested that Dule Tadic was not a nationalist. Are you

12 suggesting he was not particularly interested in politics?

13 A. I think that he was not interested in politics or, rather, when

14 we got together, when we talked also before the war, he never

15 mentioned politics. He was a man linked to sports. He loved

16 sports. He loved the youth. He liked a sporting life. He

17 sought his team to be as successful as possible, and I just

18 cannot understand that he could be a nationalist because he

19 lived in Kozarac where the majority of the population were

20 Muslims. So that if he was a nationalist, he would not have led

21 the youth in the way he did. He would not have been so active

22 in sports. I just cannot accept that he could be a nationalist.

23 Q. Did you know that he was one of the first members of the SDS

24 party in Prijedor?

25 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I heard this before and I cannot recollect any

26 evidence. I have heard Mr. Niemann say it, certainly, but

27 I have not heard any evidence to support this information.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I thought Mrs. Tadic testified -- in Prijedor

Page 7081

1 or Kozarac?

2 MR. NIEMANN: It is in an Exhibit, your Honour.

3 MR. KAY: Perhaps if we could have the information? But Kozarac was

4 the particular place, but it did not have a party.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Exhibit 344, your Honour. Perhaps it might be shown to

6 my friend and if he cares to look at page ----

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The witness would not have that Exhibit.

8 Maybe you can take a look at it, Mr. Kay.

9 MR. KAY: I do not know if the Prosecution have taken it out with

10 them.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is Mr. Wladimiroff there?

12 MR. KAY: Mr. Keegan is out there for the Prosecution. I think they

13 were taking their own Exhibits.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is Mr. Wladimiroff there?

15 MR. KAY: Yes, he is.

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, I am.

17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, in fact ----

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Hello, Mr. Wladimiroff.

19 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I have the information here. It is not

20 supported by any ----

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do you not take a look at it?

22 MR. KAY: I know the document.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Maric, would you take off your earphones,

24 please? OK, go ahead, Mr. Kay.

25 MR. KAY: It is a document here written by the ----


27 MR. KAY: --- defendant. It is Exhibit 344 which is "My work report

28 for 1990 to 1993".

Page 7082

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that the Exhibit, Mr. Niemann, you are

2 referring to?

3 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. On the English version, Exhibit

4 344B, the last sentence of the first paragraph.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Go ahead, Mr. Kay.

6 MR. KAY: It is not supported by any official documentation. It is

7 only the words of the particular person saying he was one of the

8 first members in Prijedor municipality, and no information to

9 say how he would know he was one of the first members in

10 Prijedor municipality.

11 We know that there was a political structure in

12 Prijedor, but nothing that takes it beyond that to say that he

13 was member No. 500 or member 1000 in terms of joining this

14 party. If it is going to be put, perhaps it ought to be put

15 within the context that it arrives, rather than being put in a

16 way that, perhaps, suggests that it comes from some official

17 source which it does not.

18 MR. NIEMANN: This is written by the accused himself, your Honour.

19 Obviously, it is the accused himself who can testify as to how

20 he knows about it, but until such time as the accused himself

21 enters the witness box and tells us details of how it is that he

22 comes to know it, we are entitled to put it in

23 cross-examination, in my submission.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 344 is the work report prepared by

25 Mr. Tadic dated August 8, 1993, Mr. Kay?

26 MR. KAY: That is right, your Honour.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The last sentence of the first full paragraph

28 says: "I saw joining the SDS as my only solution and became one

Page 7083

1 of the first members of the SDS in Prijedor municipality". Your

2 position is that in writing this Mr. Tadic may not have known

3 that he was No. 1, No. 5 or whatever.

4 MR. KAY: Yes.

5 (The learned Judges conferred)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Judge Stephen has suggested that you put it,

7 Mr. Niemann, to the witness: Did you know that Mr. Tadic has

8 said that he was one of the first members of the SDS in the

9 Prijedor municipality? So I will overrule your objection,

10 Mr. Kay.

11 MR. KAY: No objection to that form, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He said that. Of course, it goes to the

13 weight, but he said he was. OK.

14 [To the witness]: Mr. Marro, would you ask Mr. Maric

15 to put his earphones on again, please? Thank you, sir.

16 Mr. Niemann?

17 MR. NIEMANN: Witness, are you aware of the fact that Dule Tadic

18 described himself as becoming one of the first members of the

19 SDS in the Prijedor municipality?

20 A. No, I was not aware of it.

21 Q. Were you aware of the fact that he was involved or participated

22 in the organisation of a plebiscite relating to the interests of

23 the SDS in 1991, 1992 -- sorry, 1991?

24 A. No, I am not aware of it.

25 Q. Are you aware of the fact that he held a political position in

26 Kozarac after the fall of 1992?

27 A. No, I am not aware of it.

28 Q. During June or July 1992 did you ever visit Omarska?

Page 7084

1 A. I am sorry, I did not hear the question.

2 Q. During ----

3 A. Did I?

4 Q. --- the period June/July 1992 did you ever visit Omarska?

5 A. Yes, I was there once.

6 Q. When was that?

7 A. I cannot remember the date, but it was -- I do not know the

8 date. I went there with a tank driver to get fuel in Omarska.

9 I had never ridden in a tank before and I wanted to see the

10 interior of a tank and to have a ride in it. The driver

11 switched on the tank. I asked him where he was going. He said

12 he was going to Omarska to get fuel. I asked him if I could

13 take a ride with him. So, when we went to Omarska I did not

14 even know exactly where.

15 Q. Is it by virtue of this trip that you are able to ascertain the

16 time it took to get to Omarska and the conditions of the road on

17 the way?

18 A. Let me see, this was before the checkpoint at Orlovci was

19 positioned. I do not understand the question relating to the

20 condition of the roads.

21 Q. Did you travel to Omarska during June/July 1992?

22 A. I think this must have been June, June.

23 Q. Are you saying that the Orlovci checkpoint had not been

24 established in June?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. So was the Orlovci checkpoint established in July, was it?

27 A. I am sorry. I was not working at the checkpoint at that time,

28 that short period of time. This may have been a question of a

Page 7085

1 couple of days.

2 Q. A couple of days in June?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. A couple of days in June when the Orlovci checkpoint was not

5 established?

6 A. When I was not working at the checkpoint.

7 Q. But did you not say that the checkpoint had not been

8 established?

9 A. One can interpret this establishment in several ways. The

10 positioning of the police without the container, without the

11 little hut without all the necessary equipment later, and the

12 establishment of a proper checkpoint. So this took some time.

13 When it was established, immediately after its establishment,

14 all the facilities did not exist. These were introduced later.

15 Q. When were these facilities introduced?

16 A. I do not know.

17 Q. Approximately how long after the checkpoint was established were

18 the facilities introduced?

19 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. There is no tone in the earphones.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Maric, can you hear us?


22 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry, we did not hear your last answer. Could

23 you possibly repeat your last answer, please?

24 A. I did not pay attention to the time it took to establish the

25 checkpoint and to provide the facilities later.

26 Q. But you lived nearby, did you not?

27 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. The interpreter cannot hear.

28 MR. NIEMANN: Would your Honours like to take ----

Page 7086

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand ----

2 THE WITNESS: Can you hear me?

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in ----

4 THE WITNESS: I lived about four kilometres away from the checkpoint

5 and, apart from working there, I had no connections with the

6 checkpoint. I used a different road to go to town. It is not

7 the same road. I told you there were two roads, an old one and

8 a new one, and I used the old one to go to town.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, if we perhaps take the adjournment now?

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

11 (11.30 a.m.)

12 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

13 (11.50 a.m.)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, you may continue.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, was the trip that you took from Orlovci to Omarska in

17 June 1992 in a tank the only trip that you took between Orlovci

18 and Omarska in June and July 1992?

19 A. That was the first time.

20 Q. Was it the only time or did you travel on another occasion in

21 June/July 1992?

22 A. I travelled by train.

23 Q. How did you go from Orlovci to Omarska by train? Can you help

24 us with that?

25 A. No, I never went there by train.

26 Q. Did you go to Omarska from some other place by train?

27 A. I went by train from Prijedor to Banja Luka and Sarajevo.

28 I travelled frequently the distance between Prijedor and

Page 7087

1 Sarajevo going through Omarska.

2 Q. This is in June and July 1992, is it?

3 A. No, I told you that I never went by train at that time. I never

4 covered the distance Prijedor/Omarska at that time.

5 Q. Yes, there may be some confusion, but I am only asking you to

6 confine yourself to June/July 1992. My first question was when

7 you went by tank in June 1992, was that the one and only trip

8 that you took or did you go on other occasions in June or July

9 1992?

10 A. I had other occasions to cover the distance Prijedor/Orlovci,

11 Prijedor/Omarska, Prijedor/Banja Luka. I did have other

12 occasions.

13 Q. This was in June/July 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you travel by train in June/July 1992 from Prijedor to

16 Omarska?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Then how did you get to Omarska in June/July 1992 other than the

19 time that you went there by the tank?

20 A. I travelled in a passenger vehicle.

21 Q. Did you travel in a police vehicle?

22 A. Once it was a police vehicle, I think, and several times I went

23 in a passenger vehicle to Banja Luka.

24 Q. I am only interested in you telling us about when you went to

25 Omarska. Did you go to Omarska on your way to Banja Luka?

26 A. I do not know whether you fully understand the notion of

27 Omarska.

28 Q. I possibly do not fully understand. Perhaps you might tell me

Page 7088

1 where you went when you went to Omarska in June/July 1992?

2 A. On the Prijedor/Banja Luka road, moving from Prijedor, you turn

3 right towards Omarska. It is a settlement, a locality, which is

4 I think about six kilometres from the main road. Are you

5 interested in that locality as such or only the part of the

6 road?

7 Q. I am interested in both. I am interested in the road that you

8 went to Omarska by and where you went to when you went to

9 Omarska.

10 A. When I went on a tank, I went to the mine, the Omarska mine, and

11 when I went to Banja Luka, I passed through along the road going

12 to Banja Luka. I did not turn off to Omarska.

13 Q. Is this the only other occasion that you went by the road to

14 Omarska?

15 A. I do not understand again. I told you, when you go from

16 Prijedor to Banja Luka you do not pass through the settlement of

17 Omarska. There is a turning leading to that settlement. So

18 there is no need to enter the settlement. Only if you wish to

19 go to the locality of Omarska then you turn off the

20 Prijedor/Banja Luka road to the right to Omarska.

21 Q. How far is Omarska from the Prijedor to Banja Luka road?

22 A. I do not know exactly, about six kilometres, I think.

23 Q. What I am concentrating on is your travel from either Prijedor

24 or Orlovci to Omarska during June/July 1992. On one occasion

25 you went by tank. You spoke of two other occasions, one when

26 you went in a private vehicle and one when you went in a police

27 vehicle. When you went in the private vehicle, did you go to

28 Omarska mine again?

Page 7089

1 A. No, no.

2 Q. When you went in the police vehicle did you go to Omarska?

3 A. You mean the Omarska mine?

4 Q. Did you go to either Omarska mine or Omarska, either?

5 A. Yes, in a police vehicle, yes.

6 Q. When you went in the police vehicle where did you go?

7 A. I went to the Omarska police station.

8 Q. On that occasion did you go from Orlovci or from Prijedor?

9 A. I cannot remember. I think I went from Prijedor directly.

10 Q. Do you think that there may have been other times when you

11 travelled to Omarska in June or July 1992, but you cannot

12 remember precisely those trips now?

13 A. No. No, there were no other occasions.

14 Q. So, you are definite that you only travelled there on two

15 occasions in June/July 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said that Emir Karabasic was a mutual friend of you and Dule

18 Tadic, is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that Dule Tadic was a close friend of Emir Karabasic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were they still close friends in the time that you spoke to Dule

23 Tadic about Emir Karabasic in July 1992?

24 A. Were they still close friends? I know that Dule always spoke

25 about Emir in positive terms and that Emir spoke in positive

26 terms about Dule. They were friends. They were sportsmen.

27 They socialised outside sports as well, and that is how I met

28 them as such.

Page 7090

1 Q. So you detected no change in their relationship in the year of

2 1992, I mean, the relationship between Dule Tadic and Emir

3 Karabasic?

4 A. No, I could not notice anything.

5 Q. Dule Tadic did not say anything to you in July 1992 which

6 suggested that there had been a change in their relationship?

7 A. No, he did not.

8 Q. When Dule Tadic passed your checkpoint at Orlovci after he had

9 finished working there, when he was going to Kozarac, how was he

10 travelling, by what means?

11 A. I think he had a passenger vehicle.

12 Q. You may not remember this, but could you describe the vehicle

13 that he drove on that occasion?

14 A. I cannot because I saw him a couple of times but in different

15 vehicles. They were different. They were not always the same

16 vehicle. So I could not say whether he owned or drove a single

17 vehicle.

18 Q. Did you check his papers in the same way as you checked

19 everybody else's papers when they drove to the checkpoint at

20 Orlovci?

21 A. Well, you see, every vehicle was stopped at the checkpoint, and

22 if you stop the same vehicle or the same persons frequently you

23 necessarily get to know them, so that you do not need to spend

24 more time with that particular driver. So, you stop the

25 vehicle, you look at the papers, you identify the person and

26 then you let them pass.

27 Q. So Dule Tadic drove past a sufficient number of times such that

28 you did not need to check his papers on every occasion?

Page 7091

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you remember checking his papers on any occasion when he

3 drove past your checkpoint at Orlovci?

4 A. I personally did not, but I think my colleagues working there

5 did once or twice.

6 Q. You saw your colleagues check his papers as he drove through?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You said in your evidence that Commander Prpos imposed very

9 strict discipline. Do you remember that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As a consequence of imposing this discipline on you, you would

12 have had to follow the orders and directions of the police in

13 Prijedor, would you not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. By May 1992, the police in Prijedor had been taken over by the

16 Serb SDS party, the Serb administration, had it not?

17 A. I did not understand you.

18 Q. There had been a change in administration from the Muslim

19 administration in Prijedor to the Serb administration in 1992

20 and by May that change had taken place, had it not, in Prijedor

21 City?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The police were under the control of that administration in May

24 1992, were they not?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. If that administration had given orders to the police, like you

27 followed orders of your Commander Prpos, the police would have

28 been obliged to follow the orders of the administration as well,

Page 7092

1 would they not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. By the end of May 1992 the police and civilian authorities were

4 involved in carrying out of ethnic cleansing of Muslims

5 throughout the opstina of Prijedor, were they not?

6 A. No.

7 Q. The same police and civilian administrations participated in

8 sending Muslims to camps in the opstina Prijedor?

9 A. The police did not participate in those activities.

10 Q. The police were involved, were they not, in the carrying out of

11 murders and tortures in the camps in the opstina of Prijedor in

12 that period from May through to September 1992?

13 A. I am not aware of that.

14 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.


16 Re-Examined by MR. KAY

17 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, I have had a note

18 from Banja Luka advising me of a number of matters on the

19 transcript that have not come out properly there which I propose

20 to deal with again because they have not been recorded in the

21 same form as here.

22 Q. The first matter I want to ask you about ----

23 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, it is a little unfair if this is

24 one-sided and we are told that there are difficulties with the

25 transcript in Banja Luka and we are given no such information.

26 I think, in fairness to both parties in these proceedings, if

27 Mr. Marro has difficulties with the transcript in Banja Luka,

28 then it is appropriate that it be passed on to both parties.

Page 7093

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, I have enquired about the technical

2 facilities. I am told that the transcript that we receive is

3 the same transcript there.

4 MR. KAY: Yes.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So it is not different words, but you are

6 saying there have been some errors on the transcript ----

7 MR. KAY: Yes.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- that you wish to correct?

9 MR. KAY: Yes.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But it is not that there is a different

11 transcript in Banja Luka?

12 MR. KAY: I am unable to watch the transcript. What I have received

13 is a fax from Banja Luka pointing out these matters to me. The

14 Prosecution have a lawyer present there as well.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Certainly. You may clarify questions. I just

16 wanted to assure myself that the transcript that we have here is

17 the same transcript.

18 MR. KAY: Yes.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am told that it is, but if there are errors

20 in the transcript, then you may clarify.

21 MR. KAY: I am much obliged, your Honour, thank you.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will overrule your objection on that.

23 MR. KAY [To the witness]: The first matter I want to ask you about

24 Mr. Maric is this: it concerns the place of the checkpoint at

25 Orlovci. The answer recorded was that it was at the

26 "Prijedor/Prijedor road"? Perhaps you would like to re-explain

27 to us where the checkpoint at Orlovci is in relation to the

28 roads between Prijedor and Banja Luka?

Page 7094

1 A. If you are moving from Banja Luka, you pass through Kozarac.

2 Then you reach the checkpoint at Orlovci and then you get to

3 Prijedor.

4 Q. So is it on the Prijedor to Banja Luka road?

5 A. Yes, the checkpoint is at the Prijedor to Banja Luka road.

6 Q. The next matter I have been asked to clarify with you is if you

7 are travelling from Banja Luka to Prijedor, which side of the

8 road is the tree that you called the walnut tree?

9 A. If you are travelling from Banja Luka to Prijedor, it is on the

10 right-hand side of the road.

11 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask about those matters. You

12 referred to seeing Dusko Tadic in a motor vehicle after he had

13 finished working at checkpoint Orlovci passing through the

14 checkpoint on a number of occasions. Do you know if he was

15 driving the vehicle he was in or was he a passenger?

16 A. I cannot say for certain because most frequently he was not

17 alone.

18 Q. In your experience of working at checkpoint Orlovci, if people

19 wished to travel that time between Kozarac and Prijedor and they

20 did not own a vehicle, would they stop vehicles and have a ride

21 by hitchhiking between the two places?

22 A. The population knew that vehicles moving in both directions were

23 being checked at our checkpoint. At that time the traffic was

24 not very heavy, there were no bus connections, there was a

25 shortage of petrol, there was a war going on, so that the local

26 population would be transported with private vehicles.

27 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear all of that, I am

28 afraid.

Page 7095

1 MR. KAY: Perhaps if the answer could be repeated again, Mr. Maric,

2 as we did not hear all of your answer here? I will repeat the

3 question for you, if that is easier.

4 In your experience, having worked at checkpoint

5 Orlovci during this period of 1992, if people were travelling

6 from Kozarac to Prijedor and did not own their own vehicle, did

7 they travel between those two destinations by autostop or

8 hitchhiking and obtaining a lift from a vehicle that was passing

9 along the main road?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You told us of your ride in the tank to Omarska. Did that tank

12 take you to the site of the iron ore mine outside the village of

13 Omarska?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you were in that tank at the site of the iron ore mine, do

16 you know which part of that place the tank went to?

17 A. It went to the petrol pump to refuel.

18 Q. Can you tell us where the petrol pump would be placed if you

19 entered the camp by the main gate?

20 A. I think it was on the left-hand side. That was the first time

21 I went to the mine and it was the first time I saw the pump

22 station.

23 Q. What other buildings of the site of the mine were in that area

24 where the pump station was?

25 A. You asked about other buildings? I did not hear you very well.

26 Q. Yes. Can you tell us if there are any other buildings nearby

27 the site of that pump station, and if you know what they are can

28 you tell us?

Page 7096

1 A. If you are viewing it from the main entrance, to the right is a

2 big building. I think it is for the overhaul or repair of

3 vehicles, of heavy duty trucks.

4 Q. Can you tell us what distance away from that building is the

5 petrol pump station?

6 A. I do not know exactly, not more than 50, maybe 100 metres. I do

7 not know exactly.

8 Q. Do you know the distance from Omarska village of the iron ore

9 mine site?

10 A. The village is divided from the mine by the railway line. So

11 are you thinking of the vehicle repair building or the actual

12 pits? Which part of the mine?

13 Q. Take the vehicle repair building.

14 A. The building where vehicles are repaired that I mentioned a

15 moment ago?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I think it is about two kilometres away. I do not know exactly.

18 Q. When you said you had travelled to Omarska by train when you had

19 taken a train from Prijedor to Banja Luka and to Sarajevo, did

20 you mean that your train had passed through the village of

21 Omarska on its way to Banja Luka?

22 A. Yes, that is exact.

23 Q. You said that the checkpoint at Orlovci had existed in different

24 forms. Before the conflict in Kozarac, had there been a

25 checkpoint at Orlovci but in a different form to that in June

26 and July 1992?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Had you worked on that checkpoint in its other form before June

Page 7097

1 1992 or before the conflict in Kozarac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. We can see you on the video monitor here and you have no

4 documents in front of you. You were asked about dates of

5 working at checkpoint Orlovci and when it took a particular

6 form. If you had records before you, would that help you in

7 relation to being precise about dates or months?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you involved in any way in the activities concerning Muslim

10 people or people from Croatia who were held in camps in the

11 region of opstina Prijedor in any way?

12 A. No.

13 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.


15 MR. NIEMANN: No questions, your Honour. We would ask that the

16 witness not be released, your Honour.

17 Examined by the Court

18 JUDGE STEPHEN: One question, witness, that I wanted to ask you

19 about: you told us about conversations that you had with

20 Mr. Tadic about your mutual friend Karabasic.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you talk at all to Tadic about where Karabasic was after the

23 conflict, what had happened to him?

24 A. It is only normal that I asked him because he was a common

25 friend and I asked him whether he knew anything about what had

26 happened to him.

27 Q. Did you get any answer to that from Mr. Tadic?

28 A. He said that he did not know anything about him and that he did

Page 7098

1 not know what had happened to him during these conflicts.

2 Q. You yourself, did you have any information about what had

3 happened to Karabasic, apart from what Mr. Tadic told you which

4 was nothing really?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Maric, when did you start at the Orlovci

8 checkpoint? When did you first begin?

9 A. I do not recollect the exact date.

10 Q. Was it before June 1992?

11 A. I told you that there are two stages, so to speak, of this

12 Orlovci checkpoint, the stage until the war, until the conflict,

13 broke out and during the time of these conflicts, and the stage

14 when it was -- as it was until the very end, that is to say,

15 with a container and everything else I explained about.

16 Q. Were you working at the Orlovci checkpoint when the conflict

17 broke out in May 1992?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did Mr. Tadic begin to work at the Orlovci checkpoint after you

20 began to work at the Orlovci checkpoint?

21 A. I think that he came a bit later, I think.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have no further questions. Mr. Kay?

23 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.


25 MR. NIEMANN: Would your Honour excuse me for a minute?


27 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry, your Honour. We are just checking

28 something on the transcript.

Page 7099

1 Rather than hold the Court up at this stage, your

2 Honour, I would ask that the witness not be released.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you have no further questions?

4 Mr. Maric, you are free to leave now. However, you may be

5 recalled as a witness so you should make yourself available

6 because you may be asked to return again to testify. So,

7 Mr. Wladimiroff is there and you need to keep in touch with him,

8 or he will be in touch with you, if you are asked to come and

9 testify again at that location. Do you understand that?


11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You are free to leave now. Thank

12 you.

13 (The witness withdrew)

14 Mr. Kay and Mr. Niemann, at some point it would be

15 helpful to the Chamber if you were to write this witness's name

16 in Cyrillic, not you Mr. Wladimiroff, when he returns. I am

17 just asking that it be done because I have looked through the

18 Exhibits trying to find him -- I think it is 66(A), one of the

19 rosters -- some of it is in the Cyrillic alphabet and some is

20 not.

21 MR. KAY: Yes.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I was looking for his name and could not find

23 it, but if it is in Cyrillic, that is why I could not find it.

24 MR. KAY: Maybe someone from the translation department.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, that is a good idea, with some approval

26 between the two of you. It does not have to be done today.

27 Someone will do that then.

28 Mr. Marro is there. Would you call your next witness,

Page 7100

1 please, Mr. Kay.

2 MR. KAY: Yes. The next witness to be called by video link, your

3 Honour, is Djuro Prpos.

4 Djuro Prpos, called.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro would you administer the oath to

6 Mr. Prpos, please.

7 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

9 (The witness was sworn).

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may begin.

11 MR. KAY: Thank you.

12 Examined by Mr. Kay.

13 Q. Could you give the Court your full name, please?

14 A. My name is Djuro Prpos.

15 Q. Are you a serving police officer at Prijedor Police Station?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are you a Police Commander?

18 A. Not right now.

19 Q. If you could tell the Court what your rank is now?

20 A. Major of the police.

21 Q. Is that superior or inferior to a Police Commander?

22 A. It is a position which is not superior. At present I am

23 Inspector for the co-ordination and monitoring of traffic

24 police.

25 Q. When did you commence your work as a serving police officer?

26 A. In 1973.

27 Q. How old are you now, Mr. Prpos?

28 A. I was born in 1952.

Page 7101

1 Q. Are you a married man?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you have children?

4 A. Yes, four.

5 Q. Do you live in Prijedor or outside Prijedor?

6 A. In Prijedor.

7 Q. For how long have you lived in Prijedor?

8 A. I have lived in Prijedor since 1974.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter thinks.

10 THE WITNESS: Or 84 rather.

11 MR. KAY: Perhaps I will repeat the question. We did not hear that

12 perhaps correctly. When did you start to live in Prijedor?

13 A. 1984, and I have been working in Prijedor since 1979.

14 Q. In 1992 in which division of the police did you work?

15 Unfortunately we have gone down. I will repeat the question.

16 I am sorry, Mr. Prpos, but the communication did not come

17 through to us. In 1992 in which division of the police did you

18 work?

19 A. I worked in the police station for traffic security.

20 Q. When did you start that kind of work at the police station?

21 A. I do not find the question very clear.

22 Q. When did you commence your work in the police station for

23 traffic security?

24 A. From 1979.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear him any longer.

26 MR. KAY: In 1992 what was your rank as an officer in traffic

27 security?

28 A. In '92 I was Commander of the militia, the police for traffic

Page 7102

1 safety. At that time I did not have a rank because things were

2 not established that way then. There were only functional

3 insignia, so to speak.

4 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. When did you first meet Dusko Tadic?

7 A. I met him when he came to work in the station where I was

8 Commander.

9 Q. What did he come to work as at your station?

10 A. He was a policeman, a Reserve Policeman.

11 Q. Do you know if that was part of his mobilization or not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know what work he started when he came to your station?

14 A. I do not know.

15 Q. Do you have records that are kept of the duties of police

16 officers within the traffic security?

17 A. We do.

18 Q. I would like you now to look at a book that is Defence Exhibit

19 66A. If a copy of that can be put before you.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I was just going to comment about how well

21 things were going and I wonder whether people looking at this

22 wonder what is going on. Our Rules provide for depositions to

23 be taken by video link, but the Defence requested that testimony

24 be offered to the Tribunal by a video link ----

25 MR. KAY: Yes.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- for the convenience of witnesses and so

27 that has been arranged. We have been hearing the testimony

28 through that procedure very well. It looks like we are back

Page 7103

1 now. OK. Go ahead Mr. Kay.

2 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

3 Mr. Prpos, do you recognise that book as being a copy

4 of a document?

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear anything. There is no

6 sound whatsoever.

7 MR. KAY: I will repeat the question. Mr. Prpos, we lost your

8 communication then and I will repeat the question. Do you

9 recognise that copy document that has been put in front of you

10 and, if so, can you tell us what it is?

11 A. I recognise it. It is the daily log, as it were.

12 Q. It is the daily log for what?

13 A. For the work of policemen for that particular day.

14 Q. Is this a log for a particular division of the police?

15 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, but there seem to be interruptions in

16 the tone.

17 MR. KAY: I will repeat the question again. Is it a record for a

18 particular division of the Prijedor Police?

19 A. Yes, it is for the entire police station and I was its

20 Commander.

21 Q. Of which police station?

22 A. It is the police for traffic security, safety on roads.

23 Q. When did this document first begin? From which date does it

24 start?

25 A. Specifically this particular document on 1st June 1990.

26 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the year.

27 THE WITNESS: So that is before the war.

28 MR. KAY: Would that be 1991?

Page 7104

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter also has an interrupted tone now.

3 I cannot understand it.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just ask him to repeat his answer.

5 MR. KAY: Could you repeat your answer, please, Mr. Prpos. We are

6 having some interference here.

7 THE WITNESS: This was used before the war also, before 1992. So

8 that is in the police station where I worked.

9 MR. KAY: Your Honour, it may be we are getting a little too many

10 difficulties for the proceedings to flow smoothly at this

11 stage. I know it is before 1.00 o'clock. I can tell on my

12 headphones it is intermittent.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30, and then we

14 will continue with the video link. However, as the parties have

15 agreed, if it becomes so difficult then we can use the procedure

16 of depositions.

17 MR. KAY: Yes.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is up to you, Mr. Kay. Very good. We will

19 stand in recess until 2.30.

20 (12.55 p.m.)

21 (Luncheon Adjournment)








Page 7105

1 (2.30 p.m.)

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you continue, please?

3 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Prpos, before the break I was asking you to look at a

5 document marked 66A. Can that be placed in front of you,

6 please? You told us before the break that this book began in

7 1991. Is it right that the cover of the book is dated 1st June

8 1991?

9 A. Yes, that is accurate.

10 Q. If you now turn to the second page in the book, is that page a

11 page that contains the official police stamps?

12 A. Yes, that is accurate.

13 Q. Is it headed "Official duty plan" both in Latin script as well

14 as Cyrillic?

15 A. Yes, that is accurate.

16 Q. I would like you to now turn to the page in the book which shows

17 on that page the date of 1st June 1991. Can you see that page?

18 A. I see it.

19 Q. Is this a page showing the duties that took place on that date

20 under the command of the then head of the traffic police?

21 A. Yes, that is true. The Deputy Commander is signed, and that is

22 the duty that I performed at that time.

23 Q. Thank you. If you could then turn to the next page which is

24 headed "18th August 1991"? Can you see that?

25 A. I can see it.

26 Q. Again, is this signed at the foot of the page in the right-hand

27 corner by the then head of the traffic police?

28 A. Yes, it was Djenadija Marko, Commander.

Page 7106

1 Q. We are looking here at pages that have jumped from 1st June to

2 18th August 1991. Is it right that these are extracts that have

3 been taken from the original of the book which is held at

4 Prijedor police station?

5 A. Yes, that is accurate. These are excerpts from the original.

6 Q. Can you confirm that this book that we are looking at in this

7 form has had the names of people blanked over?

8 A. Yes, that is true. There is a number of an order of a certain

9 service and the composition of the patrol and the vehicle which

10 they used during patrol.

11 Q. Was it a condition of this being given to the Defence in this

12 form that these names that were not relevant to the Defence

13 could be blanked over?

14 A. Yes, that is true, because this is data which is not relevant,

15 so the names and surnames of other members of the patrols were

16 blanked over.

17 Q. Could you turn to the next page and is this dated 30th August

18 1991?

19 A. Yes, Friday, 30th August 1991.

20 Q. Again, is this an example of a page of the book before June

21 1992?

22 A. Yes, it was signed by Commander Fikret Kadiric.

23 Q. Could you turn to the next page is it headed 14th June 1992?

24 A. Yes, Sunday, June 14th 1992.

25 Q. In the right-hand corner of this page, is that signed by you?

26 A. It is not my signature. It is the signature of the policeman

27 who was in charge of records.

28 Q. What is the name of that policeman?

Page 7107

1 A. Cvijic Zoran.

2 Q. The page that we are looking at for 14th June 1992 we have on

3 our page three shifts for checkpoint Orlovci, is that right?

4 A. Yes, that is right, from 17 to 1500, from 1500 to 2100 hours and

5 from 2100 to 0700.

6 Q. In the parts of these pages that have been blanked out, are they

7 also the shifts for other checkpoints?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Have those details been blanked over in the copying of this

10 document so that it could be handed to the Defence?

11 A. Yes, it was blanked over with a piece of paper actually so in

12 the photocopying it was deleted so you could only see the

13 numbers of the patrol orders that certain services had.

14 Q. I would like you to tell us, first of all, whose writing is it

15 on this page where we see "punkt Orlovci" and the part of the

16 names of the officers who would have consisted of that duty?

17 A. That is the handwriting of policeman Zoran Cvijic.

18 Q. How does this book come to be made up?

19 A. You saw the beginning that, in principle, it is the Deputy

20 Commander who fills this out, because I was carrying out this

21 duty by myself at that time. After certain repetitions in the

22 service, any policeman could have done it. He would only

23 rewrite the shifts for the next day.

24 Q. Is this book with its details of the shift patterns at Orlovci

25 written before the shift takes place at that time on that date

26 or afterwards?

27 A. This is written out a day before the actual duty takes place,

28 and I wish to say that after that this is typed out on a piece

Page 7108

1 of paper and it is officially verified by the Commander, and it

2 is only after that that this timetable is put on a bulletin

3 board so that the policemen can see who was on duty when.

4 Q. In the typing out of the piece of paper that is put on the

5 bulletin board, is that a document you would have seen?

6 A. Yes, because it is only when I verify it that it can be put up

7 on the bulletin boards.

8 Q. What has happened to the piece of paper, for instance, for this

9 date of 14th June 1992? Are those documents kept?

10 A. As far as I know, these documents have not been preserved, apart

11 from this book.

12 Q. Who decided which officers would take part in which shift?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. When did you make that decision that the shifts would consist of

15 certain officers? Was that before this book was written?

16 A. Before, because then this book comes in as an auxiliary

17 document.

18 Q. So did you communicate to Zoran Cvijic whom you wanted on each

19 particular shift and the time that each shift would have its

20 duty?

21 A. Yes, one can see from here that there is a certain equal rhythm,

22 if you look at the actual distribution. If a person works one

23 day, then he does not work the next two days, for example. So

24 this becomes automatic after a time.

25 Q. Could we now turn to the next page which is headed "15th June

26 1992"? Is this the writing of Zoran Cvijic on this page?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Was it written under your authority?

Page 7109

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is the signature in the right-hand corner written by him on your

3 behalf?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. We see on the date of 15th June 1992 that the checkpoint Orlovci

6 shift between 1500 to 2100 contained Brdar Miroslav and Cvijic

7 Miroslav. Can you see that?

8 A. Yes, I see it.

9 Q. And a third member of the Unit whose name has been blanked out,

10 can you see that?

11 A. I can.

12 Q. That third member of the Unit on that day, was that Dusko Tadic

13 or someone else?

14 A. This was someone else. I am not sure, but it is not Dusko

15 Tadic.

16 Q. Miroslav Brdar and Miroslav Cvijic, do you know how long they

17 had been working at checkpoint Orlovci before this time of

18 15th June 1992?

19 A. No, I could not say with certainty.

20 Q. Were they regular policemen or reserve policemen?

21 A. One can see in the records.

22 Q. Were they regular policemen or reserve?

23 A. Reserve policemen.

24 Q. Were they forming their duties as part of their mobilization?

25 A. Yes, all reserve policemen were performing their duties under

26 the mobilization which existed earlier, before the war.

27 Q. Can we now turn to the next page of 16th June 1992? Is that the

28 writing again of Zoran Cvijic?

Page 7110

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Has he signed at the bottom right-hand corner on your behalf?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Looking at this page, it shows that 16th June 1992 had at

5 checkpoint Orlovci between 700 and 1500 hours the shift of Dusko

6 Tadic and Miroslav Brdar and Miroslav Cvijic. Can you see that?

7 A. Yes, I can see that, that is correct.

8 Q. Do you know if Dusko Tadic had worked as a reserve policeman at

9 Prijedor police station before this date of 16th June?

10 A. As far as I know, he did not.

11 Q. Can you tell us why he was given this duty at checkpoint

12 Orlovci?

13 A. Within the framework of the mobilization and the needs of the

14 service, on the basis of a timetable, he was chosen to work at

15 that particular checkpoint.

16 Q. Was it your decision that he work at this checkpoint?

17 A. It was my exclusive decision.

18 Q. Was it your decision that he work with this Unit?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If we turn to the next page of 17th June 1992, again is that

21 page written by Zoran Cvijic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The duties performed by that Unit of Cvijic, Brdar and Tadic,

24 would that have taken place under your direction?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. We know, as we have been through this book, until the end of

27 July 1992 that, in fact, this information is repeated on

28 virtually every day but at varying times. Are you able to

Page 7111

1 confirm that the book throughout this period was maintained in

2 the same way as you have described so far?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. If you could now turn to 19th June 1992, that page is written in

5 Cyrillic script. Can you see that?

6 A. I can.

7 Q. Would that have been written by Zoran Cvijic in Cyrillic?

8 A. Yes, Zoran Cvijic wrote it.

9 Q. The signature of you also in Cyrillic, would that have also been

10 written by Zoran Cvijic?

11 A. Yes, yes, Zoran Cvijic wrote it.

12 Q. You have told us that the pages on this book are prepared before

13 the duty happens, is that right?

14 A. Yes, that is right.

15 Q. What would happen if one of the policemen did not turn up for

16 his duty and, therefore, failed to attend? Would this book have

17 been amended in any way?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us ----

20 A. The change would be noted in this timetable.

21 Q. If one of the policemen failed to attend and someone else took

22 over his duty, would that have been recorded then in some form?

23 A. Yes, the name of the person who did not come would be crossed

24 over and the presence of the other person would be recorded,

25 because in addition to these assignments there is a place where

26 you have to record the absentees, those on holiday, on sick

27 leave, etc. So if he was not on duty, then his name would

28 figure somewhere else in this timetable.

Page 7112

1 Q. If you could turn to the page of 13th July 1992, do you see that

2 page, 13th July 1992?

3 A. I do. It is a Tuesday.

4 Q. In the bottom left-hand corner we can see -- 13th July 1992,

5 13th July 1992 ----

6 A. 13th? Yes, I see it.

7 Q. In the bottom left-hand corner can you see the figure "7" and

8 "Brdar Miroslav"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you see the figure "8" and "Cvijic Miroslav"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you see the figure "9" and "Tadic Dusko"?

13 A. I can.

14 Q. Why would those names against those numbers appear down in the

15 bottom left-hand corner rather than on any other part of the

16 page?

17 A. Because they were off duty on that day.

18 Q. Would that be recorded by a column headed "slobodni" meaning

19 "free"?

20 A. Yes, you can see "S-L-O", "Slo", indicated here, just the first

21 three letters. That is the column for "slobodni", "free".

22 Q. Are you confident that these records have been properly

23 maintained at Prijedor police station to reflect the shifts

24 worked by the policemen?

25 A. Yes, I am confident because there are other records in addition

26 to this one.

27 Q. Yes, I will look at some other records in a moment with you, but

28 it is the accuracy of this book that I would like you to comment

Page 7113

1 upon, whether you believe it is accurate or not.

2 A. Yes, I do believe it to be accurate.

3 Q. I would like to now turn to 2nd August 1992. Again, as with

4 other pages, is that a page written on your behalf by Zoran

5 Cvijic ----

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. --- and in the right-hand corner signed on your behalf by Zoran

8 Cvijic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Again was this like the other pages, a record compiled under

11 your authority?

12 A. It is.

13 Q. Again, does that page show on 2nd August 1992 that Tadic Dusko

14 was free on that date?

15 A. Yes, under the number 18.

16 Q. Thank you. If we turn now to 3rd August 1992, again was this a

17 page compiled in a similar way on your behalf by Zoran Cvijic?

18 A. Yes, only in this case he wrote in Latin script.

19 Q. Yes. Looking at this book, are you able to confirm that the

20 record for Dusko Tadic working at checkpoint Orlovci begins on

21 16th June 1992 and ends on 2nd August 1992?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. I would now like you to look at some more documents. The

24 document I want placed before you is headed "D63A". Do you

25 recognise this document?

26 A. I do. It is an order list.

27 Q. Can you tell us where this document comes from?

28 A. This is from the official records of the police station for

Page 7114

1 traffic security which is kept as a document of permanent value.

2 Q. Can you confirm again that the page we are looking at is an

3 extract of the pages for June 1992?

4 A. Yes, that is so.

5 Q. And that it was given to the Defence on the condition that the

6 second names of the people on that page were overwritten?

7 A. Yes, under those conditions it was given.

8 Q. I would like you now to look at the entry for Dusko Tadic at

9 No. 45. Can you see that?

10 A. I can.

11 Q. Can you tell us who would have written on this page of the

12 document?

13 A. This was written by Cvijic Zoran.

14 Q. Can you tell us what exactly is the job or position of Zoran

15 Cvijic? We have crashed.

16 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I will repeat my last question again as we

17 have linked up again.

18 Q. Mr. Prpos, I asked you what position or job Zoran Cvijic had at

19 the police station. Can you tell us, please?

20 A. At that time he was policeman for materiel and technical means

21 and for keeping of records in the police station.

22 Q. Did he work under your authority alone or under the authorities

23 of any of the other Commanders?

24 A. He was exclusively under my authority.

25 Q. Did he work in the same office as you or in a different room?

26 A. He had another office.

27 Q. How close to your office was that office?

28 A. It was right next to mine.

Page 7115

1 Q. I would like you now to ----

2 A. It was next to mine.

3 Q. Thank you. I would like you now to look at 16th June 1992

4 column. Can you confirm that that is the first working day

5 recorded for Dusko Tadic at Prijedor police station?

6 A. It is. There is an indication KS-700, from 7 to 15 hours, eight

7 hours, the number of the order, traffic control and the time

8 spent on duty is indicated.

9 Q. Can you tell us what KS-700 stands for?

10 A. "KS" is control of traffic, an indication of the type of duty,

11 and "700" is the number indicated -- indicating the type of

12 service.

13 Q. So what would "700" indicate?

14 A. It indicated the number of the order for that type of duty, from

15 the timetable of services.

16 Q. Is that a form of work permit?

17 A. This is the final part of the task of a policeman. When he

18 finishes his duty, then he enters it into this table.

19 Q. Looking at 17th June, we see there the figures next to "KS" of

20 "716". Can you help us with the difference in the number

21 there?

22 A. If you saw earlier on in the timetable, in addition to the

23 Orlovci checkpoint, there were others, so there is a whole

24 series from the new year until the end of the year for all types

25 of duties performed by the station and that is the difference in

26 this number, from 16th to 17th.

27 Q. So if we looked back at that first book, being the official duty

28 plan, D66A, and looked at 16th June, we would see that the shift

Page 7116

1 of checkpoint Orlovci from 700 hours to 1500 hours had "700"

2 against it; that "700" would also be written on this official

3 schedule, is that right?

4 A. Yes, that is right. It means that the schedule is linked to

5 this list.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, where is the 700 on 66A?

7 MR. KAY: If your Honour turns to 16th June ----


9 MR. KAY: --- on the left-hand side of the page next to the

10 word "punkt" is the figure 700.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, it is off the page on our copy, maybe in

12 the copying. We can check it later.

13 MR. KAY: Yes. If I could just help the Court as part of the

14 exercise, on 17th June 1992 there is the figure 716. Is that on

15 your Honours' copies?


17 MR. KAY: Yes, and that then corresponds with the figure on 17th June

18 in the schedule.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Judge Vohrah has a better copy. We will use

20 his copy.

21 MR. KAY: Right. [To the witness]: This schedule that we are

22 looking at for June 1992, Mr. Prpos, is it written after the

23 work has taken place on each day or before?

24 A. These records are filled after the duty has been completed.

25 Q. If a particular policeman had not appeared for duty on the time

26 or date that he was supposed to in the official duty plan, would

27 it then not be recorded in this sheet here?

28 A. No, these are the accurate data for the actual time spent on

Page 7117

1 duty.

2 Q. For instance, if on 17th June 1992 Dusko Tadic is in the book,

3 the duty book that we looked at first, as being scheduled to

4 work between the hours of 7 o'clock to 1500 hours, if he failed

5 to attend that shift, would the schedule we are now looking at

6 for 17th June then be blank as showing he did not work on that

7 day for those times?

8 A. Yes, if he had not worked on that day.

9 Q. How accurate is this schedule that we are looking for June 1992?

10 A. 100 per cent accurate.

11 Q. We see on this page that there are further days and hours

12 recorded as worked by Dusko Tadic, but those hours vary. If you

13 look at 18th June we see the figure "10". Do you see that?

14 A. Yes, that is the total number of hours that Dusko Tadic spent on

15 duty on that day.

16 Q. If we look at the 20 ----

17 A. From 21 to ----

18 Q. 7.

19 A. 7.

20 Q. If we look at 20th June, we see 15 to 21 over the figure 6. Can

21 you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was there any reason why the shift time was shorter on that day

24 of 20th June than it had been for the previous two days of 18th

25 and 19th June?

26 A. Yes, the only reason was that night began and the checkpoint is

27 far removed from the station and it needed time for the

28 policemen to get there. So the night-shifts were longer and the

Page 7118

1 day-shifts were shorter, and this intermediate shift was even

2 shorter.

3 Q. If we look at the next page which is for July 1992 -- can you

4 have D64A put in front of you?

5 A. I do not have that document in front of me. Would you please

6 repeat the question?

7 Q. Can you see the page of the book for July 1992?

8 A. I need it for July and this is June.

9 Q. The document we are producing now, your Honour, is D64A.

10 [To the witness]: Is that document before you now

11 headed "July '92"?

12 A. Yes, I have it now.

13 Q. Again, is that a list of names including the name of Dusko

14 Tadic?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. Again, was this a document that would have been written by Zoran

17 Cvijic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would it have been written under your authority?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Looking at this document, we again see the names blanked out.

22 Can you confirm that that was again one of the conditions upon

23 which the Defence were able to receive this document?

24 A. Yes, that is correct. That was required as a precondition, for

25 the other names, the names of the other policemen, to be blanked

26 out.

27 Q. This page that we are looking at, does it come from a book?

28 A. Yes, it is an excerpt from the schedule.

Page 7119

1 Q. Again, can you confirm that it is the schedule relating to the

2 traffic police for Prijedor?

3 A. Yes, I can.

4 Q. Looking at this page, we can see that again the letters "KS"

5 appear above the hours noted. Can you see that?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. Is there any reason why we do not have any linking number here

8 which would correspond to the numbers within the official duty

9 plan, the first book we looked at?

10 A. That is an error, an omission on the part of Cvijic who filled

11 in this document, Zoran Cvijic.

12 Q. Again, could you comment upon the accuracy of this document

13 relating to the records of the hours of duty for Dusko Tadic?

14 A. These records are accurate.

15 Q. I would like you now to look at another document which is D65A.

16 Can you see this document headed "August '92"?

17 A. Yes, I can.

18 Q. Can you tell us what this document comes from?

19 A. This is an excerpt from the schedule of the traffic police.

20 Q. Again, is it a document that was compiled by Zoran Cvijic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would that have been under your authority?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us up to what date it shows Dusko Tadic worked for

25 the traffic police at Prijedor?

26 A. According to this copy, as far as I can see, it is 3rd August

27 from 7 to 19 hours, a total of 12 hours traffic control.

28 Q. At the point of 3rd August, can you confirm that it shows that

Page 7120

1 Dusko Tadic carried out no further duties for the traffic

2 police?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When we were looking in the book for the official duty plan,

5 that contained the duties of checkpoint Orlovci. If Dusko Tadic

6 had been working for two days at a security point on the bridge

7 over the River Sana, would that have been in the first book we

8 looked at?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. We have got him recorded as working here on this schedule, but

11 in the book that we looked at which showed the shifts for

12 checkpoint Orlovci, would that have been within that book if he

13 had been at a security point on the River Sana on the bridge?

14 A. Yes, it would.

15 Q. Looking at this document here, on the right-hand side there is a

16 "remarks" column. Can you see that?

17 A. Yes, I can, but the copy is a very poor one.

18 Q. Are you able to tell us, so far as you can, what is written in

19 the "remarks" column against Dusko Tadic's name?

20 A. If we look at it from the bottom, it is the third blank from the

21 bottom, that on 5th August '92 he was transferred to somewhere

22 else, signed by me, and it was written by Cvijic Zoran.

23 Q. Would that be accurate as a note relating to the ending of Dusko

24 Tadic's duties within the traffic police?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Do you know if Dusko Tadic after he finished working for the

27 traffic police at Prijedor was then transferred to another

28 division of the Prijedor police?

Page 7121

1 A. I do not know and I did not enquire because I had other business

2 to attend to.

3 Q. What I would like you to do now is to look at another document.

4 These are documents that have not been exhibited yet, your

5 Honour, but it is one that has been handed to the Prosecution

6 labelled A1.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is this a document that you wish to offer once

8 it has been identified?

9 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. That will be what number?

11 MR. BOS: 74.

12 MR. KAY: Can you see this document which we have called here A1,

13 Mr. Prpos?

14 A. I can.

15 Q. Is it a document that is headed "August '92"?

16 A. Yes, I see that.

17 Q. Do you recognise this document as being a copy of another

18 document?

19 A. I know it is a schedule, but it does not belong to the station

20 for traffic security.

21 Q. Can you tell us for which station it belongs?

22 A. I could not, I am afraid, not with certainty. It probably

23 belongs to one of those he was transferred to.

24 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I will not take this matter any further then

25 with this particular witness. (To the witness): Thank you very

26 much for that, Mr. Prpos, if that document can now be taken away

27 from in front of you? If another document can be placed in

28 front of you labelled C1, which I tender before the Court, your

Page 7122

1 Honour, as I think it is D75. Can you see this document

2 labelled C1, Mr. Prpos?

3 A. I can.

4 Q. Can you tell us what it is headed?

5 A. In the heading it is stated: "The Reserve Station of Police,

6 list of members of the Reserve Police Force in July '92,

7 unemployed".

8 Q. July or June 1992?

9 A. June 1992.

10 Q. Is your signature on this document?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Is it a document that has your name on it?

13 A. Yes, in the signature, Commander of the police, Prpos Djuro,

14 signature and stamp.

15 Q. Can you tell us what this document, C1, shows?

16 A. It is a list of members of the reserve police force who received

17 a salary on the basis of this list. You can see the sum and the

18 signature of the worker or policeman in question, the number,

19 the time when he was engaged, the amount in dinars and his

20 signature.

21 Q. If you could look at the page behind it, does it show the same

22 information?

23 A. Yes, only this is in a frame, but these are the same data and

24 this is my original signature.

25 Q. If you would look at the page behind that, page 3, does it show

26 the same information there?

27 A. Yes, only this is a list from the accounting service.

28 Q. Do you recognise this document as coming from Prijedor police

Page 7123

1 station?

2 A. This document belongs to the accounting or finance department,

3 because you see on the basis of these numbers that there are

4 many policemen, and this is a record by the accountancy

5 department of those receiving a salary.

6 Q. Is it a document, however, that comes from Prijedor police

7 station? Is this document held there?

8 A. This document -- the number is in the heading -- is kept in the

9 accountancy department of the station for public security in

10 Prijedor, and the previous two are in the police station.

11 Q. Are you aware if these three documents were given to the Defence

12 at Prijedor police station in your presence?

13 A. I am not aware of that, because when these documents were given

14 I was no longer in the station for traffic security. I now hold

15 a different post and have different duties.

16 Q. However, you recognise that third page as coming from the

17 accounts department, is that right?

18 A. Yes, I assume on the basis of the numbers, the orderly numbers,

19 the last number is 150 because I know that we did not have so

20 many policemen in our station.

21 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I tender this now to the Court as the next

22 Defence Exhibit. I think some numbering has gone awry actually

23 because I remember that at the end of Friday we had a video

24 photo taken of the marked photograph by the witness of that

25 date, and that would have been D74.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I recall that I had asked counsel to reach an

27 agreement, put a mark on it.

28 MR. KAY: Yes.

Page 7124

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I did not know that it was going to be

2 introduced as another Exhibit. If it was given another number,

3 I do not know, Mr. Bos, whether you would have known that?

4 MR. BOS: It has not been given a number.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It was not given a number. Why do we not just

6 make that 76 since it has not been given a number and that will

7 be the photo with the marking by Witness B, was it?

8 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So there is no objection to Defence 76.

10 I gather there was an agreement made. That was Witness B who

11 identified his sentry post? No objection?

12 MR. NIEMANN: There is no objection, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, Defence 76, that will be admitted. 74 has

14 been marked for identification purposes but not offered. 75 now

15 you wish to offer. Is there any objection to Defence 75? This

16 is, what, the last one that this witness was talking about?

17 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. At this time we are not satisfied

18 this witness has authenticated this document. Perhaps we could

19 in our cross-examination, if Defence does not, we could ask some

20 additional questions, so perhaps we could withhold our decision

21 whether to object or not object at this time?

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. It is a several page document. How many

23 pages is it, three?

24 MR. KAY: It is three pages.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is the last page that really presented us a

26 problem.

27 MR. KAY: It is the last page.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us hold off and, if you want to, see what

Page 7125

1 can be developed on cross-examination, or at this point, I do

2 not know that this witness is able to testify as to where this

3 document comes from except his belief that it would come from

4 the accounting because of the orderly fashion ----

5 MR. KAY: Yes.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- like all accountants and because of the

7 number, 150. So there may be a foundation problem with the last

8 page, but the first two pages ----

9 MR. KAY: The first two pages should go in, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What was problem with the first page?

11 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, my understanding of the testimony so

12 far ----

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us ask. Mr. Prpos, would you please take

14 off your earphones? Thank you.

15 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, my understanding of the testimony so far

16 is that this witness was not present when these documents were

17 provided to the Defence. This witness did not sign the first

18 two pages even though his name is signed on those pages. There

19 is no indication he prepared these documents. There is no

20 indication these documents were in his keeping. So, I think at

21 this point in time they have not laid the foundation to

22 authenticate these documents through this witness.


24 MR. KAY: They form the usual category of almost business records of

25 which he is able to support the authenticity because they are

26 documents that arise in the course of the employment of the

27 particular person, the accused, which bear his name and he is

28 able to authenticate them in that form as being that category of

Page 7126

1 document that arises from the nature of employment of the person

2 who has his name on it.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are now down to a business record exception

4 to hearsay and I do not know how it would be done in your

5 system, but you might need to have the custodian of the record

6 to come and testify that (a) this is a record; that it was kept

7 either by him or under his direction; that it was kept in the

8 normal course of business. That is, kind of, my understanding.

9 I do not know what it would be in my fellow Judges'

10 jurisdiction. We do not even have a business record exception.

11 We do not have a hearsay rule either. It is really, though, a

12 question of foundation and authenticity. I do not know.

13 MR. KAY: May I say these are typed documents with a stamp on them

14 and a signature.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They look good.

16 MR. KAY: Yes. I am surprised at the objection really.

17 (The learned Judges conferred).

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will suspend ruling on this offer of Defence

19 75 at the present time. We will give you an opportunity to

20 cross-examine and perhaps you will be able to better -- you have

21 articulated, but perhaps the Judges will understand -- I will

22 understand better the basis for your objection. So we will

23 reserve ruling on Defence 75 at this time.

24 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we have copies here for you which I think will

25 make it rather clearer to see what we are looking at. If

26 eventually you reject the material, you can reject these, but

27 I think it will make it easier.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sure. At the present time, though, let us move

Page 7127

1 forward and let us see whether we are going to admit them. So

2 I will reserve ruling on 75 at the present time.

3 MR. KAY: Right.

4 Q. Can I turn you back to the first page of document ----

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, would you ask Mr. Prpos to put his

6 earphones on, please? Mr. Kay, you may continue.

7 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

8 Q. Can I put you back to that first document labelled "C1" again,

9 Mr. Prpos?

10 A. I see it.

11 Q. Is that document headed amongst its heading the words "June

12 1992"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us how this document comes to be compiled?

15 A. This document was compiled in the militia station for traffic

16 security on the basis of records of work of policemen during a

17 particular month, that is, throughout the month of July.

18 Q. Does this document contain the name of Dusko Tadic?

19 A. Yes, under No. 12.

20 Q. Who would have filled in this record?

21 A. The typist who typed this out, but Zoran Cvijic is responsible.

22 Q. You referred to there being a signature on this document in that

23 line of 12. Whose signature would that be?

24 A. This is most probably the signature of Dusko Tadic that he

25 received this amount of money.

26 Q. When would this document be presented to the policeman for

27 signature?

28 A. When this amount of money is paid out to the said person. This

Page 7128

1 is proof of having received the money.

2 Q. The money that has been paid to the policemen, who calculates

3 that sum?

4 A. This is calculated by the person who works in the accountancy

5 department of the public security station ----

6 Q. If we look ----

7 A. --- and one can see that this was written out in writing.

8 Q. If we look at the headings of the columns of this document, can

9 you tell us what the headings are?

10 A. First, the number, then the surname and name and then "engaged

11 from, to", the number of days, the amount of dinars and then

12 signature.

13 Q. When would it say that Dusko Tadic was engaged from and to?

14 A. You can see it there, from 16th until 30th June.

15 Q. What does it say under the number of days?

16 A. The total number of days.

17 Q. How many is that recorded as being?

18 A. It says 13.

19 Q. Under whose authority is this document compiled by Zoran Cvijic?

20 A. Under my authority, but then there is also the records that

21 existed and also the schedule.

22 Q. So the documents we have previously looked at, being the

23 official duty plan and the schedule of hours worked, are the

24 documents that are used to calculate the wages?

25 A. Yes, those are the documents used.

26 Q. Looking at this page here it has your name on it, is that right?

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Where is that, Mr. Kay?

28 MR. KAY: The first part, your Honour.

Page 7129

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, typewritten.

2 MR. KAY: Whose signature is that through your name and the station

3 Commander?

4 A. This is the signature of Dusan Jankovic, the Assistant Head of

5 Department for police affairs. I was probably away at the time

6 and it was necessary to pay salaries to policemen, so he signed

7 it in my name.

8 Q. Are you familiar with this kind of document? Have you seen it

9 before in Prijedor police station?

10 A. Yes, while I worked there.

11 Q. Is it compiled properly and as you would expect such a document

12 to be compiled?

13 A. In this specific case, it should be so, yes.

14 Q. I would like you now to look at the next page. Do you recognise

15 this copy document that is before you now?

16 A. Yes, I recognise it.

17 Q. What is this document?

18 A. This is also a list of the reserve members of the police force

19 on the basis of which salaries were paid to the policemen.

20 Q. Is it then the same kind of document as the one we have just

21 been looking at?

22 A. Yes, it is the same.

23 Q. Does it show at line 8 the name of Dusko Tadic?

24 A. Yes, Dusko Tadic under No. 8.

25 Q. Is there a signature in the right-hand column of the page?

26 A. Yes, there is a signature.

27 Q. Who would sign at that part of the document?

28 A. I could not tell. Basically, the person who took the amount

Page 7130

1 concerned. It did not have to be Dusko Tadic personally; one of

2 his colleagues could have picked it up for him.

3 Q. Does it show how much money he would have received during his

4 working period?

5 A. Yes, 9,300.

6 Q. In the bottom right-hand corner of the document is your name

7 typed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That is Djuro Prpos. Is there a signature there?

10 A. Yes, this is my signature.

11 Q. Do you recognise this document as being a document that is part

12 of the usual police records at Prijedor police station?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. KAY: Your Honour, in view of the answers relating to the first

15 two pages of this document, I would submit now that it is fully

16 indicated sufficiently for the Court in terms of authentication.


18 MISS HOLLIS: No objection to the first two pages, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Defence 75, the first two pages, will be

20 admitted.

21 MR. KAY: Thank you. Your Honour noting the time as being 4.00,

22 would that be an appropriate moment?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

24 (4.00 p.m.)

25 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

26 (4.20 p.m.)

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, we are ready to proceed.

28 JUDGE VOHRAH: He is not!

Page 7131

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may continue.

2 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Prpos, I would now like you to look at the third page of

4 that document that was marked C1. Do you have that document now

5 before you and is it headed with the figure "4" at the top of

6 the page?

7 A. Yes, I can see it.

8 Q. Is the name Tadic Dusko in the column at point 128?

9 A. Yes, it says Dusko Tadic under No. 128.

10 Q. Is there again a signature on that page at the same line of 128?

11 A. Yes, yes, there is a signature.

12 Q. Can you tell us then where this document comes from?

13 THE INTERPRETER: The English interpreter says the tone is

14 intermittent. I cannot interpret this.

15 MR. KAY: I do not know whether there has been interference or not.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: See if Mr. Prpos can hear us? Mr. Prpos, can

17 you hear us? No.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I always feel when we have this down time we

19 should be doing something, so perhaps we will. The Defence will

20 finish, you anticipate, on October 25th. The Prosecution wanted

21 one week recess. That will be granted. Then the Prosecution

22 had previously indicated that they will need about one week for

23 rebuttal. So we would then begin with rebuttal, what is that

24 week, the week of November 4th, or whatever that Monday is.

25 MISS FEATHERSTONE: Yes, Monday 4th.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So if things go as they plan, then the Defence

27 will finish October 25th or thereabouts. Then we will stand in

28 recess for one week and then we will return and hear from the

Page 7132

1 Prosecution in rebuttal.

2 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

3 MR. KAY: We seem to be on-line.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Prpos, can you hear us? Very good. Thank

5 you. Mr. Kay, you may continue.

6 THE WITNESS: I can hear you.

7 MR. KAY: Mr. Prpos, if you could look at the third page then of that

8 document C1 which has the No. 4 at the top of the page, can you

9 see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us where this document comes from?

12 A. This is the document from the accountancy department of the

13 public security station.

14 Q. Have you seen a document like this before?

15 A. Yes, when taking out salaries.

16 Q. Who prepares this document within the accountancy department?

17 THE INTERPRETER: It is intermittent again, the interpreter says,

18 I cannot hear it.

19 MR. KAY: Who prepares this document within the accountancy

20 department?

21 A. It is prepared by the authorised worker who is in the

22 accountancy department.

23 Q. What information do they use to compile this document?

24 A. They use the previous list which comes from the police station.

25 Q. The signature in column 7, who would be supposed to sign at that

26 point?

27 A. It should be signed by the worker, the person to whom the

28 mentioned amount pertains to, that is the salary, or somebody on

Page 7133

1 his behalf if he was authorised to do that.

2 Q. Is this document that is before you now compiled in the usual

3 way for such documents?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would the original page, in fact, have names on the rest of the

6 numbered points?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Has this document been given in a form to the Defence that has

9 been to take out the names of the other people who were on the

10 original page?

11 A. It would be known by the person who gave this, that is to say,

12 the worker from the accountancy department. I did not give this

13 document.

14 Q. But have the other names on the page been taken out as a

15 condition of the Defence receiving this document?

16 MISS HOLLIS: Objection, your Honour. He has stated he was not

17 present when the document was given. He did not give the

18 document, so how does he know why it was taken out?

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It has been asked and answered. He has

20 repeated it again, he did not give the document so he does not

21 know.

22 MR. KAY: I did wonder whether there has been a translation problem

23 or some other difficulty in receiving this question, your

24 Honour, because I am not asking about where it came from, but

25 the fact that the other names have been taken off the page.


27 MR. KAY [To the witness]: Does this form contain the period within

28 which the police officer would have worked at Prijedor police

Page 7134

1 station for the month of August?

2 A. Yes, in this specific case it is from the 1st to 31st August in

3 the case of Dusko Tadic and the number of days too.

4 Q. Would that number of days be 26?

5 A. For the person who worked, yes, if the person worked for that

6 long, so this paper gives the number of days.

7 MR. KAY: Your Honour, at this stage I renew my application for the

8 document to be exhibited on the basis that there has been

9 sufficient authenticity.


11 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we believe that our objections will go to

12 the weight of this document. We do not object based on

13 authenticity.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. We were going to admit it because it

15 really goes to the weight. We have relaxed rules and I would

16 like to let it in, to get as much as we possibly can in terms of

17 relevant facts, and it appears to be relevant, that is for sure.

18 MR. KAY: Your Honour, there are copies here for the Court.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is this going to be 77, is it? It originally

20 was a part of 75, but we will make it a new exhibit, I guess.

21 MR. KAY: D77, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, good. D77 will be admitted.

23 MR. KAY (To the witness): That is all I ask about this particular

24 document. Thank you, Mr. Prpos. What I would like to ask you

25 about now is the control you, as the Commander of the traffic

26 police, exercised over the policemen who worked underneath you.

27 Did you make any checks upon your policemen at their various

28 points of duty?

Page 7135

1 A. Yes, I did that on a daily basis.

2 Q. We have been looking in the books and in the station register at

3 the hours of duty for Dusko Tadic. Did you have any complaint

4 against him as a police officer that he missed his duty or was

5 absent from his post?

6 A. While I carried out the control and while I was in the police

7 station, I had no objections regarding his performance.

8 Q. If one of your police officers turned up for his duty drunk,

9 would you have tolerated that?

10 A. I would not.

11 Q. What was the routine of the police officers at checkpoint

12 Orlovci for reporting for their duty?

13 A. As a rule, they go on duty from the police station itself but,

14 in view of the circumstances at the time, people went directly

15 to their post. So that in view of the distance of the

16 checkpoint, the policemen went there on their own and there was

17 no regular transportation, but during their shifts I would come

18 and control their work.

19 Q. Do you know if there was a car available for the policemen at

20 checkpoint Orlovci to be taken to their checkpoint to commence

21 their duty?

22 A. It depended on circumstances. Sometimes there was a vehicle

23 available to take the shift there and bring them back, but very

24 often there was no such vehicle available, so they had to get

25 there on their own one way or another.

26 Q. Would the police officers report to the police station before

27 starting their duty so that they were recorded as having been

28 present for their shift?

Page 7136

1 A. If they were going to their shift from the station or if there

2 was a vehicle available, yes, but if there was no possibility

3 for transporting them there, they would go there directly. But

4 I would check their presence on a daily basis to make sure that

5 they were coming on time, and the leader of the shift had to

6 prepare a report saying who was there, whether anyone was

7 absent, and there is a report to cover each shift. Also, at the

8 checkpoint a record was kept on a daily basis.

9 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions, but wait there,

10 please.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, cross-examination?

12 Cross-Examined by MISS HOLLIS

13 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

14 Q. Witness, could you please tell us your day and month of birth?

15 A. May 1st 1952, in a place called Lamovita, the opstina of

16 Prijedor.

17 Q. Are you known by any nicknames?

18 A. They call me "Duka".

19 Q. Could you tell us the address of your current residence?

20 A. Prijedor, Mese Selimovica Street, C2.

21 Q. How long have you lived there?

22 A. For -- I did not get the beginning of the question.

23 Q. How long have you lived at your current address?

24 A. I have been living there since ----

25 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. The interpreter did not get that, the

26 year.

27 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry, could you tell us again the year in which

28 you first moved to that address?

Page 7137

1 A. 1993, 1993.

2 Q. Do you know who lived at that address prior to your living

3 there?

4 A. Yes, Mehmed Krajisnik, the former Commander who was my Commander

5 too.

6 Q. Did that individual own the residence at that address?

7 A. He was not the owner. He was a tenant because the apartment

8 belongs to the Ministry of the Interior.

9 Q. Do you know who previously owned that apartment?

10 A. I do, Krajisnik Mehmed, as I just said.

11 Q. You indicated he was not the owner. Do you know who owned that

12 apartment prior to the Ministry of the Interior taking it over?

13 A. From the beginning, from the moment the building was erected, it

14 belonged to the Ministry of the Interior.

15 Q. How is it that you were able to get an apartment in that

16 building?

17 A. Upon the insistence of the former user, Krajisnik Mehmed,

18 I exchanged with ----

19 Q. In what section of Prijedor is your address located?

20 A. It is a settlement called Pecani.

21 Q. You indicated, I believe, that you have four children. Could

22 you tell us the dates of birth of your children?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you tell us?

25 A. I can.

26 Q. Please do so. What are the dates of birth of your children?

27 A. The youngest was born on December 17th, 1995; the next was born

28 on 14th June 1980 and the 24th June 1982, and the oldest is a

Page 7138

1 child from my second wife's first marriage. He is Danijel, born

2 in 1979.

3 Q. Thank you. What is your father's name?

4 A. Vaskrsija.

5 Q. Does he have any nicknames?

6 A. They call -- everybody calls him "Kiso".

7 Q. Prior to working for the police in the station in Prijedor, did

8 you work for the police in Ljubija?

9 A. I did from 1974 until 1979 and I lived there until 1984.

10 Q. You have indicated that you continued to work for the Prijedor

11 police department and that you are currently a Major and your

12 position is you are the Inspector for the co-ordination and

13 monitoring of traffic police, is that right?

14 A. Yes, it is correct.

15 Q. How long have you held that particular position?

16 A. This last position?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. From 1994, in August.

19 Q. At this time who is your immediate superior?

20 A. Dragan Stojicic.

21 Q. What is that person's official duty title?

22 A. He is head of the department for police affairs.

23 Q. At this time who is the Chief of Police in Prijedor?

24 A. I do not know which police you have in mind.

25 Q. Let me ask you, for some time, at least, Simo Drljaca was the

26 Chief of Police in Prijedor. Does he continue in that position?

27 A. No.

28 Q. When he was in that position, what was the scope of his

Page 7139

1 authority? Was it for the entire opstina or only for the town

2 of Prijedor?

3 A. The Prijedor opstina.

4 Q. Who has taken his place? Who is now the Chief of Police for

5 opstina Prijedor?

6 A. I do not know. The post of deputy is being performed by Dusan

7 Jankovic.

8 Q. The Chief of Police for opstina Prijedor, who does that person

9 report to?

10 A. You must ask him that.

11 Q. You do not know what the official reporting is from the Chief of

12 Police upward?

13 A. I know what my responsibility is, but I do not know as regards

14 the Chief of Police.

15 Q. Your immediate superior, does that superior report to the Chief

16 of Police for opstina Prijedor?

17 A. Most probably, yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us when it was that Simo Drljaca relinquished his

19 job as Chief of Police for opstina Prijedor?

20 A. I do not know exactly. I do not know the date but it was this

21 year.

22 Q. Can you tell us when Simo Drljaca first took over as Chief of

23 Police for opstina Prijedor?

24 A. I do, it was on 29th April 1992.

25 Q. Did he hold that post continuously until very recently?

26 A. Mostly, more or less.

27 Q. What time periods did he not hold that post, if you know?

28 A. I do not know.

Page 7140

1 Q. In the spring of 1992, prior to the attacks on Hambarine and

2 Kozarac and other Muslims villages, prior to those attacks, what

3 was your position in the Prijedor police department?

4 A. I was before the war deputy Commander of the traffic police, and

5 the Commander was Fikret Kadiric until 29th April 1992. After

6 that, I became the Commander of the traffic police station.

7 Q. What was Fikret Kadiric's ethnic group, if you know?

8 A. I do know. He was Muslim.

9 Q. On 29th April 1992 and 30th April 1992, the Serbs took over the

10 positions of authority in opstina Prijedor, did they not?

11 A. Yes, that is so.

12 Q. When did you first learn that the Serbs were going to take that

13 action?

14 A. On the eve of the 29th.

15 Q. So prior to that you had no idea at all that this was going to

16 happen?

17 A. No, I did not know.

18 Q. How did you learn of that on the night of 29th April?

19 A. I was called in.

20 Q. Who called you in?

21 A. I was called in by my colleagues.

22 Q. Which colleague was it who you called you in?

23 A. My colleagues at work.

24 Q. Tell us their names, please.

25 A. There were quite a number of them.

26 Q. That is fine. Tell us the ones you remember.

27 A. All my colleagues who were working in the station with me.

28 Q. Tell us the names of those you remember, please.

Page 7141

1 A. I cannot remember any one of them just now.

2 Q. You cannot remember any of them?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Not even one?

5 A. Not one.

6 Q. These were colleagues you worked with daily?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You had worked with these colleagues for years?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Until you were called in on the evening of 29th April you did

11 not know that this Serb takeover was planned?

12 A. I did not know because I never thought about it until the moment

13 when at a common meeting we learned that the Territorial Defence

14 of Bosnia and Herzegovina was preparing to block barracks

15 because we had been together with the other workers who were

16 Muslim.

17 Q. Who told you that that was going to happen?

18 A. An official telegram arrived at the meeting and present was also

19 the former head of department of the public security station,

20 Hasan, the Commander, Fikret Kadiric, and representatives of

21 parties, Mirzo Mujadzic and Simo Miskovic.

22 Q. Who else was present at this meeting?

23 A. For the moment I can just remember them and, of course, the

24 other workers employed in the public security station.

25 Q. So you cannot remember your other colleagues who were present at

26 this meeting?

27 A. Most of them were there, both Muslims and Serbs.

28 Q. But you cannot remember the names of any of them?

Page 7142

1 A. No, I cannot.

2 Q. Is it not true, however, that a secret Serb police force had

3 been created months before this event?

4 A. I am not aware of it.

5 Q. Is it not true that it was this secretly created Serb police

6 force that was ready and took over on 29th and 30th April in

7 opstina Prijedor?

8 A. Your question is not clear to me.

9 Q. Is it not true that it was this secret Serb police force that

10 was ready and in place and took over power on 29th and 30th

11 April 1992?

12 A. I told you that I did not know that there was any secret police

13 force until the eve of 29th.

14 Q. Prior to this takeover on 29th and 30th April 1992, you had

15 frequent meetings with members of the JNA that were in Prijedor,

16 did you not?

17 A. I did not.

18 Q. You did not meet with them frequently in your office at the

19 police station?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know a man by the name -- I am sorry, sir. Please go

22 ahead.

23 A. Except for contacts that we had at a joint checkpoint which

24 existed in Kozarac long before the war formed upon orders of the

25 former Ministry of Internal Affairs headed by the Minister,

26 Alija Deljimustovic(?). At that checkpoint, members of the

27 military police were working. Those were the only contacts

28 between the civil and military police that I was aware of.

Page 7143

1 Q. When was that joint checkpoint created in Kozarac?

2 A. Long before the actual events. After the events in the Republic

3 of Croatia.

4 Q. Can you tell us what month and year it was created?

5 A. I cannot remember exactly, but before the war there was this

6 checkpoint in Kozarac while Fikret Kadiric was still the

7 Commander.

8 Q. How long did that joint checkpoint continue to exist in Kozarac?

9 A. It existed until the events that took place in Kozarac.

10 Q. When was that?

11 A. It was in May. I do not recollect exactly the date, but it was

12 in May 1992.

13 Q. When you say "until the events that took place in Kozarac", do

14 you mean until the attack on Kozarac?

15 A. I do not know what attack you are referring to.

16 Q. You are not aware of any attack that occurred on Kozarac in May

17 of 1992?

18 A. Yes, but this came after events when a soldier was killed at

19 Jakupovici on the road to Banja Luka.

20 Q. So when you say that this joint checkpoint existed until the

21 events that took place in Kozarac, you are talking about the

22 attack on Kozarac, is that correct?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What events are you talking about then?

25 A. The events after the killing of a soldier on the road that

26 I mentioned.

27 Q. What events? What do you mean by "events"?

28 A. When the soldier was killed by Muslim extremists.

Page 7144

1 Q. What action did the Serbs take after a soldier was killed? What

2 did they do in Kozarac?

3 A. I do not know.

4 Q. You do not know?

5 A. I was not au courant. I was responsible for the activities

6 under my responsibility and not for military affairs.

7 Q. There were no civilian police at the joint checkpoint at

8 Kozarac?

9 A. Yes, there were police from the traffic police station and the

10 military police ----

11 Q. So those police from the traffic ----

12 A. --- they were.

13 Q. Those police from the traffic police station would have fallen

14 under your jurisdiction, would they not?

15 A. My jurisdiction and of Fikret Kadiric who was working at the

16 time. I was his deputy at the time.

17 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Zoran Karlica?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So, Zoran Karlica never visited your office in the spring of

20 1992 in Prijedor?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I believe you indicated that after the Serb takeover of Prijedor

23 you became the Commander of the traffic police, is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. Who promoted you to that position?

26 A. The chief of the station.

27 Q. Who was that?

28 A. Simo Drljaca.

Page 7145

1 Q. Did he personally tell you ----

2 A. I just took over.

3 Q. Did he personally tell you that ----

4 A. I just took over ----

5 Q. Did he personally tell you that you had been promoted to the

6 Commander of the traffic police?

7 A. Not personally. I gave the documents later. I just continued

8 the duties I had performed as a deputy and I took over as

9 Commander until I was appointed when by a decision of the

10 Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Srpska I was

11 appointed to this post, but I was acting Commander until then.

12 Q. Who told you that you were acting Commander?

13 A. Simo Drljaca.

14 Q. When did he tell you that?

15 A. After the takeover of authority.

16 Q. That would be the next day after the takeover?

17 A. It was implied. I just continued the work I had been doing

18 before.

19 Q. This would have been the next day after the takeover that Simo

20 Drljaca told you you were the acting Commander, is that correct?

21 A. One may put it that way.

22 Q. How long did you hold that position? I think we may have lost

23 it.

24 Witness, I will repeat the question that I had asked.

25 How long did you hold the position of Commander of traffic

26 police?

27 A. Until 1994.

28 Q. Where was your office located, in what building, in Prijedor?

Page 7146

1 A. The headquarters of the station.

2 Q. Is that a building sometimes people refer to as the SUP

3 building?

4 A. Yes, that is right.

5 Q. Have you ever been interviewed by any journalist, either Serb

6 journalist or non-Serb journalist?

7 A. No ----

8 Q. Have you ever given any ----

9 A. --- not as far as I can remember.

10 Q. Have you ever given any statements for any newspaper, magazine,

11 television programme or radio programme?

12 A. You mean the overall preceding period?

13 Q. Yes.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear him.

15 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry. We could not hear that answer. Would you

16 repeat the answer, please?

17 A. There were professional statements in the domain of traffic

18 exclusively local radio and television.

19 Q. Did you make these statements before the conflict or after the

20 conflict?

21 A. Before the conflict.

22 Q. Have you watched any of this trial on television?

23 A. Well, every now and then because time permitting really.

24 Q. Which witnesses have you watched testify?

25 A. Not a single one.

26 Q. When you watched ----

27 A. I watched -- I did watch the witnesses of the Prosecution, yes.

28 Q. Do you remember the names of any of those witnesses whose

Page 7147

1 testimony you watched on television?

2 A. I think I only remember a Mirsad Mujadzic.

3 Q. How often did you watch these proceedings on television?

4 A. Seldom, seldom, because I worked, so I could not follow it all

5 the time.

6 Q. Where would you be when you would watch this trial on

7 television? Would you be at home? Would you be at the police

8 station? Where would you be?

9 A. At home, at home when I get back home for work.

10 Q. Has anyone ever told you not to watch this trial on television?

11 A. Yes, I was told not to watch it when I found out that I would be

12 a witness.

13 Q. Sir, when was that? When were you told?

14 A. I cannot remember the date exactly. I remember when Mr. Kay was

15 here, then I was told about that.

16 Q. Do you remember what month that was?

17 A. Two or three months ago.

18 Q. In the spring and summer of 1992, what type of vehicles did the

19 police use in opstina Prijedor?

20 A. They used vehicles with police plates and also civilian cars

21 depending on the actual duty involved. We, in the traffic

22 police, would use civilian vehicles when we were checking on

23 speed limits, for example.

24 Q. These civilian vehicles, would they have any particular types of

25 markings to identify them as police vehicles?

26 A. They were marked like any other police vehicle, that is, alarms

27 and it also said "Police". It was written "Police".

28 Q. What colour were these civilian vehicles?

Page 7148

1 A. Civilian vehicles, it depends, red, white, grey.

2 Q. The regular police vehicles, what colour were they?

3 A. Blue and white, blue and -- there was white colour on the back

4 and on the front, up front.

5 Q. What type of vehicles were they, what manufacture of vehicle?

6 A. In the traffic police it was primarily Golfs, a few Jugos,

7 Zastava 101 and the like.

8 Q. Before the attacks began on Muslims villages in May 1992, prior

9 to that time, how many traffic police officers were there in

10 opstina Prijedor?

11 A. Together with the Muslims there were about 30 all together.

12 Q. And after ----

13 A. Together with the leadership, I mean.

14 Q. So there would have been 30 total personnel in the traffic

15 section of the opstina Prijedor police?

16 A. No, this is just the active personnel. The reserve personnel

17 was much larger because it included Muslims too.

18 Q. How many of these reserve personnel were performing duties with

19 the traffic police prior to 22nd May 1992?

20 A. Until after the takeover, there were reserve policemen who

21 included Muslims but then after the takeover the Muslims left.

22 Q. Before the takeover, how many reserve police total would there

23 have been who were actually performing duty, that is, including

24 both Serbs and non-Serbs?

25 A. There were about 20 odd people altogether.

26 Q. After the Serb takeover at the end of April 1992, how many

27 Muslims continued to work in your section of the Prijedor

28 police?

Page 7149

1 A. None of them remained. They all withdrew to Kozarac and

2 Ljubija. They joined their own stations there and they worked

3 there. There were certain attempts to persuade some of them to

4 work there, but they did not agree to that because they would

5 have to sign a solemn declaration.

6 Q. What is this solemn declaration they would have to sign?

7 A. That they accept the laws of Republika Srpska and that they

8 would enforce them. It is the usual kind of declaration that is

9 made in police, like in any other police force.

10 Q. Did you sign such a declaration after the Serb takeover of

11 Prijedor?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did all of the police officers who worked for you sign such a

14 declaration?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did all the Reserve Police officers who worked for you, who came

17 to work for you in June, July and August 1992 also sign such a

18 declaration?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. During the months of June, July and August 1992 how many traffic

21 policemen worked for you in opstina Prijedor?

22 A. I cannot remember the exact number now, but depending on the

23 actual needs we drew on the reserve force of the police.

24 Q. Well, what would be an average ----

25 A. The number would change.

26 Q. What would be the lowest number that would have worked for you

27 during that period?

28 A. I cannot remember specifically what the number was, but the

Page 7150

1 number varied practically every day depending on the actual

2 needs involved, and then we would draw on the reserve force

3 because after the departure of the Muslims from the station it

4 was normal that this had to be filled up.

5 Q. Was it filled up to the same number you had before? Were there

6 more people working for you? Give us a general number, if you

7 can?

8 A. Well, that number, about 50.

9 Q. This would include both active duty and reserve or just reserve?

10 A. The total number active duty and reserve.

11 Q. Can you ----

12 A. Because ----

13 Q. Please go ahead and finish.

14 A. Reserve Police officers had the same authority as regular police

15 officers after they were mobilized.

16 Q. Where were you assigning these police officers, in what

17 locations?

18 A. It was mainly checkpoints.

19 Q. Where were these checkpoints located?

20 A. Checkpoint Orlovci, Sana Raskovac, Sena Dolijna (?), etc.,

21 sometimes Gomjenica.

22 Q. Is the village of -- Mr. Prpos, can you hear me?

23 A. I can hear you.

24 Q. Is the village of Petrov Gaj located within opstina Prijedor?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Did you have any traffic police who came from Petrov Gaj?

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It looks like the picture is not working,

28 Mr. Prpos is in the same pose.

Page 7151


2 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, do you wish to stop -- no, we have lost

3 it.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How much longer do you think you have for cross

5 and redirect?

6 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would think another 30 to 45 minutes

7 perhaps. Your Honour, there is one thing I would ask, if we can

8 get the picture back up, I am going to ask you to direct to this

9 witness to provide the unredacted versions of the Defence

10 Exhibit that have been discussed here today. So, if we could

11 deal with that before we close this session.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Well, it appears that they are not getting

13 the sound anyway or the picture. If it looks like they are

14 getting it I will ask the witness to take his earphones off.

15 What is the request? He has already done it. I will ask him

16 again.

17 Mr. Prpos, would you please take your earphones off?

18 Thank you. Yes, go ahead, Miss Hollis.

19 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. During the course of direct

20 examination the Defence referred to several documents and asked

21 this witness questions about them. All of those documents are

22 redacted to a greater or lesser degree. I believe those are

23 Defence Exhibits 63, 64, 65, 66, 75 and 77. We would ask that

24 you order this witness to produce the unredacted version of

25 those Exhibits for use both in cross-examination with this

26 witness and also for other possible cross-examination or

27 rebuttal.

28 Your Honour, I suggest that the reason that we would

Page 7152

1 allowed these documents is, number one, they have been referred

2 to by the Defence and under completeness we would ask to review

3 the entire document. Secondly, the other names that appear on

4 that document would be relevant to us both to test the accuracy

5 and the completeness of these documents which this witness has

6 told us are very complete. In addition to that, they would be

7 relevant to determine what types of duties these other

8 individuals were purportedly performing who are named on these

9 documents. So we would ask that you order this witness to

10 produce them.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, we have asked Mr. Prpos to take off

12 his earphones and we want to assure there is no Serbo-Croatian

13 translation going on.

14 MR. MARRO: No problem, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: "No problem" means no, right? OK, thank you.

16 Mr. Kay, what is your response now regarding the request for

17 complete documents?

18 MR. KAY: This request is not without its problems. We have had to

19 extract these documents from Prijedor Police Station in the form

20 that we have been given. What concerns me is that this may be a

21 request that causes great difficulty for this trial and for this

22 particular witness. He has made himself available to

23 the -- well, he had made himself available to the Defence and I

24 see an empty chair -- in the circumstances in which we are able

25 to get these people to co-operate to the limited degree we can.

26 I believe this Court knows a great deal from the evidence it has

27 heard about the power of certain people in this particular

28 region. They are not in positions that are easy and requests

Page 7153

1 that are made that can put them into personal difficulty,

2 particularly if they cannot be fulfilled, may have consequences

3 for those witnesses.

4 I am not using this in a form of aggression but almost

5 like a intimidatory tactic against these individuals. What

6 concerns me is that there can be consequences that can cause a

7 witness and, indeed, this trial to have great problems. About

8 that I can say no more. I think the Court appreciates we have

9 obtained these documents and we have been into the police

10 station to get them. We have done our best.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What I hear as far as why the names were

12 excised, listening to Mr. Prpos, was he said those were not

13 relevant. The question becomes, well, who made the decision as

14 to relevancy? That is the problem. When they are turned over

15 to you and a decision is made by a person in power that, "This

16 is all I am going to give you", then that raises a problem just

17 in terms of our ability even to compel this individual to turn

18 over more. Certainly I imagine in any system, or at least in

19 any common law system, in terms of the completeness of a

20 document that is something that is recognised. What that means

21 is that one side should not be able to choose what it wants from

22 a document and put the document in and then not let the other

23 side see the entire document. I think that is a pretty

24 universal concept that would be recognised. Is that not true,

25 my fellow Judges?

26 So the notion of completeness is not foreign and the

27 rationale is simple. It is to be fair for both sides.

28 MR. KAY: We have not made the decision on relevance. We have not

Page 7154

1 told them to edit these documents. We were unable to see them

2 until they were provided to us in this form. We have not asked

3 for incomplete records to be put in this form before the Court.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me confer with my fellow Judges and see if

5 they agree with me on my notion of completeness. Then of course

6 there is a problem with just the production, whether we have the

7 power even to do that. But there are questions I had about some

8 of these documents and some names that I would be interested

9 in. So it is going to affect how I might even look at these

10 documents.

11 (The Judges conferred).

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: My fellow Judges agree with my view on the

13 notion of completeness, that is that if you offer part of a

14 document then the other party can compel the entire document to

15 be offered. The reason is obvious whether we are in common law

16 or civil law I think. We want to have the complete document.

17 The real power is our ability to compel. Judge Vohrah has

18 suggested that there is no harm in asking the witness, directing

19 him even, to produce the entire document. If he tells me,

20 "Well, the powers that be made the decision that we would only

21 give this", there is not too much I can tell him, I think, in

22 terms of the power that this Tribunal has, unlike a national

23 system.

24 MR. KAY: Yes, the Defence have no difficulty with the request. It

25 is just that I am making a point to the Court about this as I do

26 not want it reflected upon the Defence.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand. I hope that the witness is still

28 there and I will ask that he return. Do you have anything else

Page 7155

1 to add, Miss Hollis, at this point?

2 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we understood they were given these in

3 redacted form. That is why we ask you to make the request, the

4 order of this witness. We would note, however, that we have

5 been told that in fact at least one or more of the Defence team

6 have seen the unredacted documents even though they could not

7 copy them. But again that really is peripheral I think to the

8 problem here.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Have you seen the complete document?

10 MR. KAY: Yes, but I cannot say I have memorized it or anything like

11 that.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is Serbo-Croat and English.

13 MR. KAY: I insisted on seeing it so I knew what was being put before

14 my eyes.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The reasons that were given you for the

16 redaction were?

17 MR. KAY: It is a need-to-know basis as far as I am concerned.


19 MR. KAY: I was being treated on a need-to-know basis. I was being

20 given only what I was going to receive.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So did you ask for more and get only what you

22 received?

23 MR. KAY: Yes, and I asked to make sure that I could see an

24 authentic -- well, I will not give evidence, but I asked to see

25 something so I knew where it came from.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think it is appropriate since there was

27 mention of the fact that a member of the Defence team had seen

28 it. I do not think you are giving evidence out of sorts.

Page 7156

1 Let us talk with Mr. Prpos. Mr. Marro, would you ask

2 Mr. Prpos to put his earphones on, please. Mr. Prpos, this is

3 Judge McDonald talking. Mr. Prpos, regarding certain Exhibits

4 that you made reference to in your testimony, the Tribunal is

5 requesting that you produce the complete copies of these

6 Exhibits. The copies that we have been presented are only

7 partial, in that certain names and other information is

8 taken -- can you hear me still? Can you hear me?

9 THE WITNESS: I can hear you. I can hear you. I can hear you.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Certain information is taken out of these

11 Exhibits. You referred to them when you said that information

12 had been blanked out. The Tribunal is requesting that you

13 produce these documents completely without the blanked out

14 portions, and they are Exhibits 63 -- these are Defence

15 Exhibits -- Defence Exhibit 63, 64, 65, 66, 75 and 77. Those

16 are the documents that you made reference to today during your

17 testimony. Are you able to produce those documents in their

18 complete form without the blanked out portions or with the

19 blanked out portions not being blanked out?

20 THE WITNESS: As far as I am concerned, because at present I am not

21 in the Traffic Security police station, so all of that would be

22 addressed to the present Commander of that station. So I do not

23 have the authority now to give anything from those records

24 because I am not authorised in that station now. These records

25 remain in the station regardless of who is the Commander.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Who is the Commander again of the traffic

27 police now?

28 THE WITNESS: At present it is Mile Jankovic. I have testified on

Page 7157

1 the basis of what I know in relation to the documents that were

2 made while I was Commander of the police station.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, is there anything else? Mr. Kay?

4 Mile Jankovic I understand is the present Commander.

5 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He is the person who would have custody of

7 these records?

8 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know how I could compel -- I was

10 looking at the witness list and I do not see him as a

11 witness for the Defence.

12 MR. KAY: He is not, your Honour. He declined.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So he is not a witness. What authority do

14 I have to compel?

15 MISS HOLLIS: What actual authority you have to compel even with this

16 witness I guess is a question, but I might suggest that you

17 request of this witness to pass your request on to Mr. Jankovic

18 and have a reply tomorrow.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Mr. Prpos, would you ask Mr. Jankovic if

20 he will produce these documents in their complete form, the ones

21 I referred to by Defence Exhibit numbers, so that you may bring

22 them with you when you return tomorrow to complete your

23 testimony?

24 THE WITNESS: I can try, but I cannot guarantee because this is

25 exclusively within his authority. But I believe that insight

26 can be made in a different way in terms of authenticating these

27 documents. I think the people who have been crossed out are not

28 all that important. These are simply the names of other

Page 7158

1 policemen who do not want to appear in this kind of case. There

2 are numbers and it is obvious that this is an excerpt in which

3 Dusko Tadic appears.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This is a trial and both sides want access to

5 the information. So, if you will pass on this request, please,

6 to Mr. Jankovic, and the request is that he give to you the

7 complete copies of those Exhibits that I referred to by number,

8 that is Defence Exhibits 63, 64, 65, 66, 75 and 77, so that you

9 may bring them with you tomorrow. You indicate to him that that

10 is a request that has been made by the Tribunal. Would you do

11 that?

12 THE WITNESS: I shall tell him, but as far as the outcome is

13 concerned I cannot be the judge of that.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Prpos. You are now

15 excused until tomorrow at 10 a.m. and we will resume the

16 testimony then. The Court is adjourned until 10 a.m.

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

18 (5.40 p.m.)

19 (The court adjourned until the following day).