Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8139

1 Wednesday, 6th November 1996.

2 (10.00 a.m.)

3 (Open session)

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will now begin the Prosecution's rebuttal.

5 Mr. Niemann, are you ready to proceed?

6 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. We are ready to proceed.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Would you call your first witness,

8 please?

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. We call Sakib Sivac.

10 SAKIB SIVAC, called.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that has

12 been handed to you?

13 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15 (The witness was sworn)

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

17 Examined by MR. TIEGER

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may begin.

19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Sivac, you testified previously in this matter. During your

21 earlier testimony, you related to the Court that you were born

22 and raised in Sivci, in opstina Prijedor ----

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. --- and discussed the cleansing of the male Muslim population

25 from Sivci on June 14th 1992. I want to hand you a piece of

26 paper and ask you if you know the person whose name appears on

27 this piece of paper. If I may have the assistance of the

28 usher? If you can show that to the Defence?

Page 8140

1 A. Yes, I know. That is [redacted].

2 Q. Thank you. I apologise for not making my intentions clear,

3 Mr. Sivac. I think we will ask for a redaction at this point.

4 I am going to ask you, Mr. Sivac, to refer to this person as

5 "Witness W" and I will be asking you questions about him using

6 that initial. How did you happen to know Witness W?

7 A. I first knew him from sight in Kozarac in passing, you know.

8 Then later I was married up near his village. Between his

9 village and from where my wife is, there is a mountain lodge and

10 I used to go there with my father-in-law. We went there a few

11 times. That is where I saw him.

12 Q. Was he a member of that mountaineering lodge or was he working

13 there?

14 A. I do not know if -- I was not a member, but I would go up there

15 often. Anybody could go there on his own will. He was cleaning

16 something and he brought some drinks to the table where myself

17 and my father-in-law were.

18 Q. You related when you testified before the Court on an earlier

19 occasion that after the cleansing of the male Muslim population

20 from Sivci you were taken to Keraterm camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you see Witness W while you were in Keraterm camp?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall approximately when that occurred?

25 A. That was after about 25 to 30 days after my arrival in the camp.

26 Q. Was that during daylight or at night?

27 A. That was then -- at that time when I saw him was during the day

28 time.

Page 8141

1 Q. Where were you at that time, in what part of the camp?

2 A. I was in No. 2, the whole time. Next to the right door when you

3 enter from the scales, I was there by the door.

4 Q. Where did you see Witness W?

5 A. I saw the Witness W as he entered the room.

6 Q. Was Witness W in civilian clothes or in uniform?

7 A. The witness was -- Witness W was in a uniform, the old SMB, and

8 he was dirty as a pig from mud.

9 Q. Was he armed?

10 A. Yes, he had a rifle with a long butt, and it was a

11 semi-automatic.

12 Q. Did he come to Keraterm into room 2 to say "hello" to his former

13 neighbours?

14 A. I do not know why he came, but when he entered, he and another

15 one with him -- I did not know the other one, he had a short

16 beard -- first he said, "Is there anybody from Brdjani here?"

17 Nobody responded, so then he started swearing, cursing their

18 balija mother. He said, "Fuck you, your Alija. We can't live

19 together any more", and he trampled around the door a few metres

20 perimeter on our feet and then he said, "Is there anybody here

21 from Forici?" and nobody responded and then he walked out.

22 There were four of the Foric's who were there who did not dare

23 respond. Then he left and I do not know where he went later.

24 Q. Was it Witness W who asked for people from Brdjani and then

25 began cursing Muslims when no one responded?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. You indicated that no one from Brdjani responded, and that when

28 he asked for Foric's, although there were some there, they did

Page 8142

1 not respond. Why did the Foric's not respond to the ----

2 A. They did not dare. They were afraid. They knew that they were

3 not being called for anything good.

4 Q. After you were transferred from Keraterm, were you taken to

5 Trnopolje camp?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you learn in Trnopolje camp whether there had also been

8 members of the Foric family there?

9 A. When we came to Trnopolje, then they were saying that a lot of

10 Foric's have been killed, that there were two by two, there were

11 six of them, brothers, and then I saw my sister-in-law's brother

12 and he said that ten of theirs were killed, father, brother,

13 four sons, a wife, a daughter-in-law and two children, that many

14 of the Foric's were killed.

15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, sir. That is all I have, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination?

17 MR. KAY: No cross-examination, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Sivac being

19 personally excused, Mr. Kay?

20 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: This is really, I suppose, a question to you to save

22 time. Can you show us where Brdjani and Forici is, just

23 roughly, or tell us?

24 MR. TIEGER: North, up toward the mountains from Kozarac.

25 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are there additional questions?

27 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Sivac, you are permanently excused. You

Page 8143

1 are free to leave. Thank you for coming.

2 (The witness withdrew)

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, would you call your next witness,

4 please?

5 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. I call Jusuf Arifagic.


7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that has

8 been handed to you?

9 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

11 (The witness was sworn)

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

13 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

14 Q. Your full name is Jusuf Arifagic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You gave evidence before this Tribunal in this case on

17 8th August 1996?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know a person who gave evidence in this case who had the

20 pseudonym of Witness W?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I do not want you to mention his name at any stage in the course

23 of your testimony. Would you please have a look at this

24 photograph that I now show you? Could you show it firstly to

25 the Defence and then show it to the witness? Without mentioning

26 the name, just looking at that, is that the person that you know

27 as Witness W? Would you answer, please?

28 A. Yes.

Page 8144

1 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honour, and might it be sealed,

2 363.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Any objection, Mr. Kay?

4 MR. KAY: No, objection, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Prosecution Exhibit 363 will be admitted and

6 sealed.

7 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Arifagic, how long have you known Witness W?

8 A. I knew him almost my whole life. All the time that I lived in

9 Kozarac, we were there together. I think he was a bit older

10 than I was.

11 Q. During the period of the time that you lived in the Kozarac

12 area, how often would you see him, regularly, rarely, or can you

13 give us some idea of how often you came in contact with him?

14 A. I think I saw him almost every day since he worked in Kozarac,

15 so that my every visit to the town I had an opportunity to see

16 him. I cannot say that it was every day, but on a weekly basis,

17 two or three times at least.

18 Q. Do you know what Witness W was doing during 1991, especially the

19 latter part of 1991?

20 A. I think that he was in a part of the JNA -- I do not know if it

21 was TO or not -- and I think that he took part in fighting

22 around Pakrac and Lipik and that is what all his colleagues were

23 saying, and he wore SMB uniform and carried weapons.

24 Q. Did you see him during 1992?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. When did you see him in 1992?

27 A. Often times I would see him in passing, and on one occasion

28 I was in a cafe with him and he was there in a uniform with

Page 8145

1 weapons.

2 Q. Do you recall an incident in relation to a person called Mehmed

3 Adzic?

4 A. Yes, I remember.

5 Q. What do you know about that incident?

6 A. I know that [redacted], apparently, threatened to throw a

7 grenade, that he would throw a grenade in front of his house.

8 I know that the man called his house, his brothers, and the man

9 was coming and they had to pay attention, and the reason was

10 because this man, Muhamed, was in the legal Territorial Defence

11 of the former -- of the then JNA and that could have been one of

12 the reasons why he wanted to throw a grenade.

13 Q. How did you come to know about this?

14 A. Mehmed, Muhamed Mehmedagic's brother, was staying with me and we

15 were talking about the situation in Kozarac and so he was

16 telling me what was going on.

17 Q. Did you know this person Mehmedagic?

18 A. Yes, I knew him very well. We were almost neighbours.

19 Q. You mentioned earlier an incident that you recall in a bar in

20 Kozarac, is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Whose bar was that?

23 A. It was the bar of Adil Jakupovic.

24 Q. Was Witness W in this bar at the same time you were there?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Who were you with at the time?

27 A. I was sitting with friends in the bar.

28 Q. What happened?

Page 8146

1 A. Well, the mentioned person was with Adil Jakupovic and I think

2 the other person's name was Muharem and they were quite -- he

3 was quite drunk and at one point he said that he would activate

4 a grenade in the bar and, obviously, there was a reaction on the

5 part of others and Adil, as the owner, tried to calm the

6 situation down, asked him to leave and they would go to the

7 mountaineering lodge and that they would continue to drink

8 there. But it all ended up by his leaving the bar and the

9 police had to come and, apparently, he was taken to Prijedor,

10 but the next day he reappeared with the uniform and the weapons

11 in Kozarac.

12 Q. When you say "he" on these occasions, you are referring to

13 Witness W?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you mentioned "uniform", what uniform are you referring to?

16 A. It was the SMB uniform of the old Yugoslav Army.

17 Q. When you say "he returned the next day armed", again it was he,

18 Witness W, who returned the next day armed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What happened the next day when he returned to the bar armed?

21 A. One maybe needs to make a wider explanation. When I was sitting

22 with this friend, I was building a family home, and he was doing

23 part of the installation of electricity and that was one of the

24 reasons why we were sitting in the bar and we were arranging

25 about the work that needs to be done. The next morning, that

26 same man came to my home and we started work and he told me, and

27 I will try to quote, "There's that fool again drunk again. He

28 came back from Prijedor, he has -- he is armed and he is going

Page 8147

1 to avenge himself on all the people in Kozarac who framed him",

2 so that he was taken to Prijedor, to the police.

3 Q. Do you know who Witness W associated with during the early part

4 of 1992, some of the people that he associated with?

5 A. He associated mostly I think at that time still it was, it was

6 still with all citizens in Kozarac, even though he in different

7 incidents he caused reactions from other citizens. So he would

8 often -- he could often be found in Dule's cafe and with other

9 people who took part in fighting around Pakrac and Lipik, and

10 there was knowledge. People in Kozarac knew about him. So this

11 was not a short period of time, it was almost over a period of a

12 year.

13 Q. Are you aware of whether the Muslim population in the Kozarac

14 area taunted him or was rude to him or anything that you ever

15 observed?

16 A. I think no. If there were reactions, it was probably in

17 response to his behaviour. In other words, people could not

18 allow that he would behave the way he did. That day he wanted

19 to activate a grenade in the cafe and this friend of mine was

20 sitting with a little daughter who was, I think, I believe,

21 about four years old. So it was all reactions to his bad

22 behaviour.

23 Q. Did you ever see Witness W in Keraterm camp?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you remember when it was, approximately, that you saw him?

26 A. I think it was in June sometime, or beginning of July -- in that

27 period. In any event, I remember that he came to the camp and

28 he was looking for people from Kozarac, from Brdjani, and

Page 8148

1 apparently he wanted to see how we were and he even promised

2 that the next morning he would bring us bread, but obviously he

3 did not appear, nor bread.

4 He was looking for certain people and made contacts

5 with them. One of them was Namik Mahic. He asked him, "Where

6 are -- where is Becir now?" I think he was thinking of Becir

7 Medunjanin who was the President of SDA Party for Kozarac.

8 Namik approached him and he said, "You know very well that I was

9 in the TO, the legal TO, of Bosnia and Herzegovina and when

10 everything started I took off the uniform and turned it in and I

11 was not taking part in anything", and he said, "Don't be afraid,

12 I will not harm you", or something in that respect.

13 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

15 MR. KAY: No cross-examination, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Arifagic being

17 permanently excused?

18 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Arifagic, you are permanently excused.

20 That means you are free to leave. Thank you very much for

21 coming.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

23 (The witness withdrew)

24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, there is a redaction at 10.22.08 ----

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection, Mr. Kay?

26 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, would you call your next witness?

28 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. I call Nasiha Klipic.

Page 8149

1 NASIHA KLIPIC, called.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take the oath that has been

3 handed to you?

4 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

7 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

8 Q. Is your full name Nasiha Klipic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you previously give evidence before the Tribunal in respect

11 of this case?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Would you look at the photograph that I now show you, please?

14 Could it be shown to the Defence first, please? Madam, would

15 you look at this photograph, please, and can you tell me, do you

16 recognise the person that you see there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell me the name of the person?

19 A. This is Zeljko Maric, a traffic policeman from Donji Orlovci.

20 Q. How long have you known him, approximately?

21 A. I have known him since 1985.

22 Q. How well did you know him?

23 A. I knew him because he was always on the same duty between

24 Kozarac and Kamicani.

25 Q. What duty was that?

26 A. He was working as a traffic policeman at a point,

27 Kozarac/Kamicani -- it depended -- but before the war he was

28 mostly in Kozarac.

Page 8150

1 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that photograph, your Honour, given the number

2 364.

3 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 364 will be admitted.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Madam, did you know Zeljko Maric in a social way,

6 socially? Did you and your husband socialise with him at all?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was this occasionally or often or rarely?

9 A. Quite often.

10 Q. Before the war, were you and your husband friendly with Zeljko

11 Maric?

12 A. Yes, we used to go very often to cafe bars, listen to music and

13 he was going out with a friend of mine. We used to go swimming

14 in the Sana River.

15 Q. Do you know some of the friends of Zeljko Maric prior to the

16 war?

17 A. Zeljko Maric was on good terms with all the policemen. Emir

18 Karabasic was once with us when we went swimming in the Sana

19 River. There was my husband, myself, Zeljko Maric and a

20 colleague of mine.

21 Q. Was Emir Karabasic a friend of Zeljko Maric?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know what work, in particular, what duties Zeljko Maric

24 was performing in the early part of 1992?

25 A. In the early part of 1992, Zeljko Maric, Zeljko Ignatovic, Cigo,

26 the traffic policeman, and there were two soldiers and then two

27 Muslim policemen just before the war had a joint checkpoint.

28 They worked together there in Kozarac.

Page 8151

1 Q. Was this a fixed checkpoint or did they move from place to

2 place?

3 A. Just before the war it was a fixed, permanent checkpoint and

4 before the war it was in Kozarusa, Susici. It depended.

5 Traffic policemen would just stop somewhere and then they would

6 stop a car sometimes in Kamicani sometimes -- it depended.

7 Q. So, in the early part of 1992 it was not a fixed checkpoint, but

8 then just prior to the war in 1992 it became a fixed checkpoint

9 that he worked at, is that what you are saying?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Previously when you gave evidence you spoke of being a part of a

12 large column of people that went down through the main street of

13 Kozarac, and then went towards Velika Kozarusa. Do you remember

14 testifying to that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I think you said that that incident when you were in that column

17 was on 27th May 1992?

18 A. Yes, a Wednesday.

19 Q. On that day, did you see Zeljko Maric?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where did you see him?

22 A. He was also in Kozarusa, there in that group.

23 Q. What group is that?

24 A. In Kozarusa where people were being separated by Ziko's cafe

25 there.

26 Q. What was he doing, could you see, Zeljko Maric?

27 A. I saw him. He was working -- he was doing just the same things

28 as the others did.

Page 8152

1 Q. Was he in uniform on that day?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What uniform did he have on?

4 A. They still had their loyal uniform.

5 Q. What is the "loyal uniform", can you tell me that?

6 A. The same one as my husband used to wear before.

7 Q. Your husband was a policeman?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. So he had a police uniform on?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was he armed on that occasion, Zeljko Maric?

12 A. Yes, every policemen at that time had a pistol and an automatic

13 rifle. The policemen used to have it before the war and just

14 before the war.

15 Q. When you saw Zeljko Maric at this place, did you have a

16 conversation with him?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you have a conversation with him at any stage on that day?

19 A. Not on that day, but in the SUP in Prijedor.

20 Q. I see. When did you have a conversation with him in the SUP in

21 Prijedor?

22 A. When I came back from the Trnopolje camp, it was on 8th or 10th

23 June, and then I continued to live in Prijedor until 28th June.

24 Q. So it was it sometime in June that you had a conversation with

25 him in the SUP?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Can you relate the conversation that you had with him for us,

28 please?

Page 8153

1 A. We just met before the SUP building and he said, "Where are you,

2 Klipic? What is new?" "Nothing", said I. "Do you know

3 anything about our policemen, where they?" "Nothing". I said,

4 "Please be human; you are a policeman. You have also got two

5 children", I think there were two sons, "just as I have got two

6 children and I heard that my husband was killed with these

7 eleven other policemen I heard, and please allow me at least to

8 bury him". He told me, "Nasiha, I would really like to take you

9 there, but he was certainly not killed there. There were people

10 who were killed but he was not killed there".

11 Q. He told you that?

12 A. Yes, he told me that.

13 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, cross-examination?

15 MR. KAY: No cross-examination, your Honour.

16 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, you said that you were told he was not

17 killed there. Where was "there"?

18 A. By the printers in Kozarac, where the junction is. Some eleven

19 policemen were shot there.

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Klipic, you indicated that when you saw

22 Mr. Maric at Kozarusa that he was doing what the others were

23 doing. What were you referring to?

24 A. Separating people. Normally there was a group there. You

25 understand? I did not know where they were separating, what to

26 do, and then basically they were separating everybody. Some

27 people went to Keraterm or Trnopolje or Omarska. I do not know

28 who allocated who to go where. I could not see it but I saw him

Page 8154

1 there.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann, do you have additional

3 questions?

4 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.


6 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Klipic being

8 permanently excused?

9 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Klipic, you are permanently excused. You

11 are free to leave. Thank you for coming again.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 (The witness withdrew)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am looking at my notes. I meant to ask

15 Mrs. Klipic when she said that there were people who were killed

16 there, did she know who had killed them? I do not remember

17 whether that came from her previous testimony. Of course, she

18 has now left and been permanently excused and I can check her

19 previous testimony, I suppose.

20 MR. NIEMANN: I will have it checked, your Honour, but she can be

21 recalled, I think, on that without any difficulty. I will just

22 ask somebody to go through the transcript.


24 MR. NIEMANN: I call Advija Campara, your Honour.


26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take the oath that has been

27 handed to you?

28 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 8155

1 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

2 (The witness was sworn)

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated. Thank you.

4 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, you may begin.

6 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you.

7 Q. Madam would you please state your full name?

8 A. My name is Advija Campara.

9 Q. Are you married?

10 A. Yes, I am, and I have one child.

11 Q. What is your husband's name?

12 A. Hajrudin Campara.

13 Q. What is your nationality?

14 A. Muslim.

15 Q. Where were you born?

16 A. At Jakupovici.

17 Q. Is that in the opstina of Prijedor?

18 A. Yes, in the opstina of Prijedor.

19 Q. Madam, where did you live -- I am sorry. When were you

20 married? When were you married?

21 A. In Kozarac. I used to live in Jakupovici up until 1979. Then

22 after that I moved in Kozarac in the Skender Kulenovic street.

23 Q. Is that otherwise sometimes referred to as Kalate?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How long did you live at Kalate?

26 A. Up until 1988.

27 Q. Did you live there with your husband?

28 A. I did.

Page 8156

1 Q. What was your husband's occupation?

2 A. A teacher.

3 Q. Where did he teach?

4 A. In the primary school, Rade Kondic, in Kamicani.

5 Q. Is that primary school in any way connected with the elementary

6 school in Kozarac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What is the connection between the two schools?

9 A. In fact, it is all really Kozarac, in Kozarac, but in Kamicani

10 it was just the first four classes, and after that in Kozarac

11 they were all eight classes.

12 Q. So there was a direct link between the two schools?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know the accused in these proceedings, Dule Tadic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How is it that you know him?

17 A. Well, in Kozarac it is impossible not to know somebody.

18 Q. At some stage did you live near the accused Dule Tadic?

19 A. Yes, he lived in the same street where I used to live, Skender

20 Kulenovic Street.

21 Q. This is when you lived in Kalate?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many houses away from your house was the house of Dule

24 Tadic?

25 A. The fourth house.

26 Q. Who was he living there with at the time when you knew him?

27 A. With his wife Mira and two children. In fact, I do not know

28 exactly whether at that time he had two children or just one.

Page 8157

1 I know that the elder daughter was there.

2 Q. This house that Dule Tadic lived in, do you know who owned that

3 house?

4 A. Yes, it was the house of Ahmet Alic.

5 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic's wife?

6 A. Yes, I did. She used to work at the Kozarac hospital.

7 Q. What was her name?

8 A. Mira.

9 Q. What did Mira do at the Kozarac hospital? What was her job, did

10 you know?

11 A. She was a nurse.

12 Q. I think you mentioned earlier that Dule and Mira Tadic had two

13 children?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was one of the children close to the age of your daughter?

16 A. I think so, maybe a year older than my daughter.

17 Q. Where did you then live after 1988?

18 A. In Prijedor, in Pecani.

19 Q. Can you give the full address of the property in Pecani, in

20 Prijedor?

21 A. Yes, yes. It was Pecani C1, entrance 3. The number of the

22 apartment was 65.

23 Q. What was the telephone number of that apartment?

24 A. 12 -- 522.

25 Q. How is it that you came to get this apartment?

26 A. After 30 years of working in the Rade Kondic school, my husband

27 acquired the right to get that flat.

28 Q. Was this the system that operated in Yugoslavia when Tito was

Page 8158

1 the President?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did people become entitled to certain things after numbers of

4 years of service?

5 A. Yes. There were points that were given and those people who had

6 the greatest number of points would be allocated an apartment.

7 Q. When these apartments were allocated, what was the process? How

8 did you go about obtaining it?

9 A. The council had to meet, and then they would see who had the

10 greatest number of points, that person was allocated an

11 apartment. We all had to go through that procedure.

12 Q. When you were allocated an apartment, how long were you allowed

13 to stay there for?

14 A. Until the end of your life. Even our child would have the right

15 to inherit it in case he would have lived with us till our

16 death.

17 Q. Did you pay any rent or maintenance for these apartments?

18 A. Yes, yes. I remember that at first it was some three and a half

19 thousand.

20 Q. What was this money paid for? What was the purpose of paying

21 the money?

22 A. I think it was for maintenance of the building, something like

23 that.

24 Q. Were you allowed to carry out improvements to these apartments?

25 A. Yes, in fact, it was ours.

26 Q. Did you carry out improvements to this apartment that you were

27 allocated?

28 A. Yes, yes, in 1990 we put a new parquet floor.

Page 8159

1 Q. Was it a nice apartment from the point of view of ----

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. --- the sort of standard of apartments in Prijedor? Was it a

4 nice apartment based on that?

5 A. Yes, it was a new apartment, rather nice.

6 Q. I would ask you to look at this photograph for me, please.

7 Might the photograph firstly be shown to the Defence? Madam,

8 would you look at that photograph and can you tell me if you

9 recognise the person in it?

10 A. That is the man who threw me out of the apartment, Rajko

11 Karanovic.

12 Q. When did you first see this person?

13 A. On 10th July 1992 when he knocked at my door.

14 Q. I tender that photograph, if your Honour pleases?

15 MR. KAY: No objection.

16 MR. NIEMANN: 365.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 365 will be admitted.

18 MR. NIEMANN: Madam, what was the first day and date that you saw

19 this person?

20 A. The 10th July 1992.

21 Q. What day was that, day of the week?

22 A. It was a Friday.

23 Q. At approximately what time of the day?

24 A. Around half past one in the afternoon.

25 Q. Tell us, were you alone at that time or were you with somebody?

26 A. No, I was not alone. There was another woman there and five

27 children under the age of 10.

28 Q. Was your daughter there?

Page 8160

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How old was your daughter at the time?

3 A. She was not quite 10 years old.

4 Q. Where was your husband at this time, madam?

5 A. In the Omarska camp.

6 Q. What happened at 1.30 on that day?

7 A. Three men came, three armed men. They were knocking with their

8 boots on the door. That was the way they were used to do it,

9 kicking the door with their boots. That was the way people used

10 to enter. There was no electricity so that they could ring the

11 bell. The first person who entered -- I did not know at the

12 time who he was -- was Rajko Karanovic. After him there was a

13 second man who came in, and the third one did not want to come

14 in when he saw that there were women and children there. He

15 remained in the corridor.

16 Q. So the two men then entered the apartment?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were they carrying any arms or weapons with them at the time?

19 A. I did not notice at that time the weapons when they came in, but

20 the first thing I noticed was a knife because Rajko, when he

21 entered in the corridor, he took the knife out and he started

22 hitting the shelf on which the telephone was standing.

23 Q. When you say "hitting", what do you mean "hitting"?

24 A. When he entered in that corridor he took the knife out and he

25 started sort of hitting on the shelf. There was a small note

26 there on the telephone directory. He put that -- he put that

27 piece of paper on the knife. Then he asked me whose telephone

28 number was that, of what Ustasha with which I was collaborating

Page 8161

1 it was the number of.

2 Q. Was he hitting with the knife or stabbing with the knife?

3 A. Stabbing with the knife. I think that on the shelf there are

4 visible traces of that. One could see it very well.

5 Q. How were these men dressed, do you remember?

6 A. Rajko was wearing the olive green uniform. The other one was

7 wearing a camouflage uniform. He also had some kind of an

8 insignia on his sleeve. I think it was the sign of -- the

9 insignia of the white eagles.

10 Q. When you say he had the insignia of the white eagle, who are you

11 referring to?

12 A. The second person that came with Rajko, by the name of Stevo.

13 Q. So Stevo had the white eagle insignia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you recognise the uniform that Rajko was wearing, what that

16 uniform was from?

17 A. That was the old uniform of the Yugoslav Army.

18 Q. Apart from stabbing the note with the knife and asking you

19 questions, did he do anything else?

20 A. Yes, then he went behind the dining room table. Then he took a

21 piece of paper out and told me that was a decision for the

22 allocation of flat and I thought that he wanted me to read it so

23 that I could -- he wanted to show it to me, and he turned it

24 away so that I could see what was on it.

25 Q. Did you go and look at this piece of paper he had? Did he offer

26 it to you to see it?

27 A. No, but when I came towards him he turned this piece of paper.

28 Q. When you say he "turned" it, did he prevent you from looking at

Page 8162

1 it?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Apart from stabbing the note on the shelf, did he stab anything

4 else in the room with his knife?

5 A. On the shelf, on that piece of paper.

6 MR. KAY: Your Honour, if I may raise one matter? I know my ability

7 with the language is not that recognised but, as I understood

8 the answer in relation to preventing from looking at the note,

9 the witness replied "ne" and said it twice.

10 MR. NIEMANN: I will raise it again with the witness. [To the

11 witness]: When you say that Rajko turned the paper away, are

12 you saying that he tried to prevent you from looking at the

13 paper or was he showing it to you?

14 A. I was speaking clearly. He did not allow me to see the piece of

15 paper.

16 Q. Did you try to look at the piece of paper that he had?

17 A. Yes, I came there by him and when I came near him, then he

18 turned it around and saying it was a decision. He did not want

19 me to look at it.

20 Q. Did you ever see what was written on that piece of paper?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Apart from stabbing the note on the telephone shelf, did he stab

23 anything else with his knife when he was in the room?

24 A. Yes, this piece of paper that was there on the telephone

25 directory. He put it on the knife and turned it around and he

26 asked me whose number that was. I did not know whose number

27 that was. He was asking, who were these Ustashas we were

28 collaborating with?

Page 8163

1 Q. Did he do anything with the furniture in the apartment when he

2 came in?

3 A. He came near. He opened all the drawers in the chest of drawers

4 and he was trying to see whether there was some kind of an

5 explosive there.

6 Q. How do you know that he was trying to see if there was some sort

7 of an explosive there?

8 A. Because we were maybe half a metre, one from the other. He

9 opened three drawers. There were three drawers. He was opening

10 them one by one. He was trying to see what was in there.

11 Q. Did he say anything to you when he was opening these drawers?

12 A. He was trying to see whether I did not put any explosives in

13 there.

14 Q. Did he say anything to you when he was opening these drawers?

15 A. He only said that, that he was trying to see whether I did not

16 put any explosives in there.

17 Q. So he mentioned the word "explosives", did he?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Did he then say anything to you about leaving the apartment?

20 A. Yes, they told me that I could stay there until the next morning

21 in the apartment.

22 Q. What did you say?

23 A. Nothing. I kept silent. I had nothing to say. Maybe after a

24 minute maybe, Stevo took me to the bedroom and Rajko gave him a

25 sign with his eyes and he put the automatic rifle barrel on to

26 my temple. There was a baby sleeping there. He said if I did

27 not leave that I would go there with -- that I would be taken to

28 Omarska with this baby because that is where the Muslims

Page 8164

1 belonged.

2 Q. Who took you to the bedroom?

3 A. Stevo.

4 Q. Who gave the sign with his eyes?

5 A. Rajko.

6 Q. Did Rajko give the sign to Stevo?

7 A. Yes, apparently, it was too long a period of time for him that

8 I should be there until the next morning so they wanted to speed

9 it up.

10 Q. When you went into the bedroom were you alone?

11 A. No, there was a three month old baby sleeping in there.

12 Q. Apart from the baby, was there anyone else in the bedroom?

13 A. No, just myself and Stevo, and when I started crying then my

14 daughter came to the door. She came in running. She started

15 crying very hard.

16 Q. When your daughter came into the room, did Stevo still have the

17 gun to your head?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. What was the next thing that happened?

20 A. My daughter started crying and she said, "Mum, do we have to

21 leave the apartment?" and I said, "Yes".

22 Q. Did you stay in the bedroom or did you leave the bedroom at this

23 point?

24 A. No, we left at that point. We left ----

25 Q. Where did you ----

26 A. --- and then my daughter said, "Mum, they took our father

27 first. Where are we going to go, you and I?" Then Rajko came

28 and he took her like this, raised her chin and he said, "Little

Page 8165

1 one, you will make a grave mistake if you miss your profession.

2 You should be an actress".

3 Q. Did they then say to you what time you had to leave the

4 apartment by?

5 A. Yes, Rajko pointed like this and he said, "When I get here at

6 5.30, I want to see the apartment empty, but I will come once

7 before that to make sure that you are getting ready to leave".

8 Q. Did he came back later that day? Did Rajko come back later that

9 day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was he armed again the next time he came back?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember what weapons he had?

14 A. He had automatic weapons, both of them.

15 Q. Was he with anyone the next time he came back?

16 A. Again, again Stevo came with him and that third one, and again

17 the third one stayed in the hallway in front of the door. He

18 did not enter.

19 Q. Just before they had come back, did you receive some help from

20 your neighbours?

21 A. Yes, my neighbour came who was a Serb, and he called the Crisis

22 Staff and he said, "Just spare at least women and children.

23 Don't expel women and children", and then he told me what they

24 told him, not to get involved too much because he could end up

25 like I did. He told me that I had to leave, that I could not

26 stay.

27 Q. I think you just mentioned that Rajko came back before 5.30?

28 A. He came around, between 3.30 and 4.00 again, and he wanted to

Page 8166

1 see the decision of the allocation for the apartment that I had

2 that were in our possession, I told him that I had no documents,

3 that I did not know where they were and then he sort of

4 ironically said, "Well, you never had it anyway".

5 Q. Did you, in fact, have the documents for the apartment at the

6 time?

7 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I did. I had them.

8 Q. Did you leave the apartment then at 5.30?

9 A. Yes, they came maybe five minutes before 5.30, again Stevo and

10 Rajko, but I want to add, every time they would come they would

11 be more and more drunk.

12 Q. Did you go back to the apartment the next day?

13 A. Yes, I did. I came in the morning around 9.00 o'clock, since in

14 that hurry we did not manage to take the basic things. My

15 daughter had a long hair and we did not have a brush, and in the

16 morning we could not brush her hair. So we went looking for the

17 hair brush. We knocked on the door and a man opened up with a

18 beard and he was -- he had a stench from alcohol and later

19 I found out that he was Rajko's brother.

20 Q. Did you have a conversation with this man or did you just leave?

21 A. No, there was a hair brush in the hallway and I just picked it

22 up and left.

23 Q. Did you then go to the SUP to see what you could do about what

24 had happened?

25 A. No, that was Saturday, and only on Monday I went to the SUP, on

26 13th.

27 Q. What happened when you went to the SUP on 13th?

28 A. I came and they told me to wait, to go -- but there was already

Page 8167

1 a party in the room. I think it was room No. 2 or 3. I do not

2 recall. I waited there for a while. When I entered the room 2

3 or 3, my neighbour was sitting there. His name is Tomo and he

4 was a policeman. He used to work in the SUP previously. At

5 first he pretended he did not recognise me, and he said, "Why,

6 have I changed so much? I have lost weight", and I told him

7 what happened. But I want to say just one thing: on the same

8 day, Rajko changed the lock on the door. He came with a person

9 and changed the lock. I had the keys, but I actually would not

10 dare come back.

11 Then Tomo told me that I should go and break into the

12 apartment, and I said, "Give me a man" and he said, "No, we will

13 not risk our people. The people who threw you out are ready for

14 anything", and he said, "So what? Are you asking me to go there

15 and get killed?" He said nothing. In fact, he said to go to

16 Pecani, and there was a place where we could go to and complain.

17 Q. Did you then go and see at a later stage the military police

18 about what had happened?

19 A. No, later, only later, did I go to the military police. I first

20 went to Pecani on 14th and that person there, Dragan, who was

21 working in that police there, he said, "It is good. You fared

22 well because sometimes we beat up people who behave like that".

23 Q. Behaved like what, did he say?

24 A. He told me, "It is good that you were not beaten up because we

25 can beat up people who do not obey the orders". On that -- then

26 I left Pecani and I moved to Puharska.

27 Q. Did you go at some stage then to see the military police about

28 what had happened?

Page 8168

1 A. Yes. I went to the military police. I do not know exactly the

2 date, I do not recall, but I think it was towards the end of

3 July, and they told me that there was a person by the name of

4 Radetic, Dragan, that he was in charge, that he will help.

5 I think he was also with the military police. I knew where his

6 parent's house was. I went there and his mother sent me to the

7 military police.

8 I had never been to Cirkin Polje. I did not know

9 where that was. There was a road passed Keraterm. You turn

10 right and there was a large group. That is when I went to the

11 military police. There was a large group of soldiers, 50 or 60

12 of them. They were going somewhere, and that is where I met

13 Ika, Ika, Ante Murgic's wife. Ante was killed and also her son

14 and I had not seen that, and she started crying and then she

15 mentioned -- she said, "Dusko Tadic killed my Zoran and my

16 Ante". I was -- I got very scared.

17 Q. Rather than go into that, can you just tell us what had happened

18 when you made your enquiries at the military police? Did they

19 help you at all?

20 A. Yes. They were very civil. They received me very well and they

21 heard me out. I returned then. I was at that time in

22 Raskovac. Towards the evening, my neighbour called me and said

23 that the military police had come and that they left a note

24 saying that Rajko could not stay in the apartment.

25 Q. Did you speak to anyone from the military police about your

26 apartment or did you just receive a note?

27 A. Yes, I received a message and, in fact, he never moved in. They

28 wrote on the door that he could not and there was a notice and I

Page 8169

1 saw it. I went to my neighbours who lived on the same floor

2 where I lived and it said there that nobody could move into that

3 apartment.

4 Q. This was signed by the military police?

5 A. Yes, in Cyrillic. I remember well. It was in the Cyrillic

6 alphabet.

7 Q. Do you know why Rajko was not permitted to move into the

8 premises?

9 A. I think at that time whoever was only on duty within the city of

10 Prijedor could not, but he brought Stevo with him and Stevo had

11 been on all fronts, and he said it was not for nothing that he

12 got a declaration that he had on the left sleeve, and that was a

13 problem and Rajko had no basis, he was lying, he had nothing, he

14 had no decisions, no documents that he could move into the

15 apartment.

16 Q. Madam, I just want you to tell me what you mean by saying that

17 whoever was on duty within the city could not obtain the

18 apartment. What do you mean by that?

19 A. Yes, what I mean is that was to raise their morals. Whoever

20 would enlist to go to the front, they could get anything, or

21 somebody who would be either in the SUP or in the Crisis Staff,

22 they could get it. But since Rajko was just a common soldier

23 who was just on duty on these checkpoints, he could not get it.

24 Q. So are you saying that the allocation of apartments was based on

25 whether or not people had fought at the front or not?

26 A. Yes, even though -- or if he held a high position within the

27 city.

28 Q. Did you later see Stevo? On another occasion later on did you

Page 8170

1 meet with Stevo?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When was that approximately, how much later?

4 A. Maybe 20 days later.

5 Q. Had Rajko moved into the apartment by this stage?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Where did you meet Stevo?

8 A. In the house of Sado and Timka who lived in Raskovici. I do not

9 know their last name.

10 Q. Did Stevo recognise you when he first saw you?

11 A. Stevo came with Aco. I do not know his last name, but I know

12 that he was a driver for the municipality. So Aco first came in

13 and Stevo behind him and he did not know -- he only knew Timka

14 but not Sado, because Aco was their house friends. He first

15 extended his arm. He said, "Do I know you from somewhere?"

16 I said, "We know each other quite well".

17 Q. You say "he first extended his arm", you mean he put his arm out

18 to shake your hand, did he?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. It was when he did that that he said, "Do we know each other?"

21 A. Yes. When he looked at me, because I was not looking at him up

22 until then, I only looked at him when he extended his hand and

23 then he said, "Do we know each other from somewhere?"

24 Q. Did you tell him from where it was that you knew him?

25 A. Yes, and then I told him, "You see, Stevo, how we meet,

26 sometimes you don't think", and maybe that could have cost me.

27 I said, "See how we met and maybe you will meet me at some point

28 where you would not like to meet me". He said nothing. He just

Page 8171

1 nodded and he looked at me. Then I told him, "Why did Rajko not

2 move into the apartment?" He said, "Well, there are other

3 things that need to be resolved", and he said, "but Dusko will

4 help him. Dusko is now the first man in Kozarac".

5 Q. Who do you mean by "Dusko"?

6 A. Dusko Tadic.

7 Q. How is it that Dusko Tadic could help you, did you understand

8 that?

9 A. I think because it was the apartment belonged to the Rade Kondic

10 school and the documents I later found out, the documents were

11 moved to the kindergarten. Then they were looking -- he was

12 looking for ways, and I think that Stevo knew, since he told me,

13 and he knew that I knew Dusko, Stevo must have recommended Dusko

14 to help him and at that time this Local Commune was established

15 in Kozarac. I do not know how they called it, but Dusko was the

16 first person on it. It was like a municipality or something.

17 Q. Do you know whether Rajko eventually moved into the apartment?

18 A. I think some time in the beginning of September or end of

19 August. In any event, he did not move in for about two months.

20 Q. Did you then later return to the apartment?

21 A. Yes, only in December when I was about to leave Prijedor,

22 I think on 13th or 14th -- the 13th December, I went with a

23 friend from Banja Luka who was a Serb. He came to take some

24 things from me because I had taken nothing out of the apartment,

25 and all the time up until then I believed, I had hoped, that

26 I would return to the apartment, I would stay there, and we went

27 there sometime in the afternoon to Rajko's door. I rang the

28 bell. Vera came out. She did not know me. I introduced

Page 8172

1 myself. I said I was Advija. She just turned her head and

2 called Rajko.

3 Q. Who was Vera?

4 A. Rajko's wife.

5 Q. I see. Did Rajko then come to the door when she called him out?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When he came to the door what did you say to him?

8 A. I said that this man who was with me, that he wanted to take

9 some things, that I came for my belongings.

10 Q. What did Rajko say to you?

11 A. He said that he distributed all the things to the Serb

12 refugees. Then I looked him in the face and then I dropped my

13 look and he was standing on my rug, and he said that there was

14 not a piece of cloth left, that he had given everything away.

15 Q. Was that the last time you ever went to the apartment?

16 A. Yes. Yes, the last time.

17 Q. During 1992, the year of 1992, were you ever in the Trnopolje

18 camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you there alone or was your daughter with you?

21 A. My daughter as well as my brother's two children.

22 Q. When was it that you were in the Trnopolje camp?

23 A. I went there on 27th September.

24 Q. How long did you stay there?

25 A. Until 25th or 26th November.

26 Q. When you were in Trnopolje camp, were there any guards or people

27 armed surrounding the camp?

28 A. Very many.

Page 8173

1 Q. Do you know what nationality these people were that were

2 guarding the camp?

3 A. All Serbs.

4 Q. How were they dressed, the people that were surrounding the

5 camp?

6 A. One could say that they were motley. They were all kinds of

7 uniforms.

8 Q. Were they armed?

9 A. All kinds.

10 Q. Did policemen or soldiers who were not guards at the camp enter

11 the camp from time to time, did you see?

12 A. That was the daily routine. They could do whatever they want.

13 They entered whenever they wanted.

14 Q. Did you recognise any of the people that entered the camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you name some of the people that you saw enter the camp?

17 A. Very many, there are many names. There was Zuna from Radivojci

18 which is really Petrov Gaj; Novo, Dule Tadic -- many, many.

19 Q. How often did you see Dule Tadic enter the camp when you were

20 there?

21 A. I cannot recall exactly, but very often.

22 Q. When he entered the camp how was he dressed?

23 A. Sometimes he had an overall like a military uniform and

24 sometimes a police uniform.

25 Q. Did you notice whether he was carrying any arms when he entered

26 the camp?

27 A. Yes. Yes, always.

28 Q. Did you recognise what arms he was carrying?

Page 8174

1 A. I do not know the weapons very well. It was not a very long

2 barrel. It was an automatic weapon.

3 Q. When you saw Dule Tadic at the camp, did he actually come into

4 the camp or was he staying on the outside on the road?

5 A. The first time when I saw him when he came he was in the school

6 building itself. He was looking for somebody.

7 Q. Do you remember anyone telling you anything about a building

8 near the camp, a house?

9 A. Yes, that was when I came to visit Trnopolje before I went to

10 the camp. On one occasion there was a group of women and we

11 were going there and a bus came from Omarska. I was expecting

12 my husband's release at the time and when we arrived just at the

13 camp, maybe about 200, 300 metres from the school building, it

14 was very hot, and a woman invited us to come and rest there,

15 because we were going on bicycles.

16 At that time Serbs had started moving into Trnopolje.

17 I thought that she was a Serb. I did not know that there were

18 any old inhabitants in the houses, and so I asked why she was

19 there and she said, "I should have left", and I should say that

20 the house had not been finished. The top floor was without

21 windows and he said that the night before they brought in a girl

22 with them and that they had their way with her all night, and

23 they said that -- then she said that she should have left and

24 that she was going to leave.

25 Q. The house that you are talking about, that was not the house

26 where this woman who offered you hospitality but it was a house

27 nearby, was it?

28 A. Yes, the woman -- she gave us water, she had nothing else, and

Page 8175

1 she called to us to come and rest and take a glass of water and

2 at that time she told us this.

3 Q. But the house she was talking about was not her house, it was

4 the house nearby?

5 A. No, it was her house. We were standing in front of her house.

6 I do not know if it used to belong to her originally or if she

7 was a refugee, but she was saying that this had happened in this

8 house.

9 Q. I see. You saw this ----

10 MR. KAY: Excuse me, if I could object to something, your Honour?

11 This is supposed to be a part of the Prosecution case which is

12 in rebuttal of the Defence which we have recently heard over

13 some six or seven weeks. At the moment, I fail to understand

14 how this is in rebuttal of any aspect of the Defence case. As

15 I recollect developments during the Defence, the Prosecution, in

16 fact, withdrew allegations concerning Trnopolje that had been

17 made against the defendant Dusko Tadic on the basis that those

18 allegations had been falsified by one of their witnesses.

19 I am at a loss at this stage to understand how any

20 aspect of this evidence is in rebuttal of any part of the

21 Defence case at all, or whether we are hearing yet again more

22 stories recounted through other witnesses that are not relevant

23 to this defendant.


25 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps the witness should be asked, your Honour, to

26 remove the headset?

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, please. Mrs. Campara, would you remove

28 your earphones?

Page 8176

1 MR. NIEMANN: It is that very matter, your Honour, that prompts us to

2 raise these issues relevant to Trnopolje, because the

3 allegations specifically in relation to the witness that Mr. Kay

4 has referred to certainly have been withdrawn by the Prosecution

5 in relation to paragraph 4.3 of the indictment.

6 But, your Honour, it is our allegation that the count

7 of persecution which incorporates, not only Omarska and the

8 Keraterm camp, but also includes the camp at Trnopolje, and they

9 are still live and the period of time leading up until December

10 is still live. The Prosecution have not in any way attempted to

11 withdraw that count of persecution at that time frame in

12 relation to that place.

13 It is because, in our submission, that there is this

14 suggestion that the whole of the allegation relevant to

15 Trnopolje has been withdrawn that this material is relevant now

16 in rebuttal.

17 (The learned Judges conferred)

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay had said that the Prosecution was

19 dropping allegations regarding Trnopolje. That is not your

20 position, is it?

21 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour. Our position has always been those

22 allegations contain specifically in 4.3 where I highlighted ----

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are beyond recess time so we will stand in

24 recess for 20 minutes and then we will return with the ruling.

25 (11.35 a.m.)

26 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

27 (11.55 a.m.)

28 (In the absence of the witness)

Page 8177


2 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. During the break and having a chance to

3 consider what Mr. Niemann raised to your Honour concerning 4.3

4 in the indictment, can we remind the Court that the indictment

5 was only extended as a result of the application by the

6 Prosecution based on the statement and the evidence they wish to

7 adduce through Witness L, (redacted)? That was a specific

8 application made by the Prosecution to enable them to extend the

9 period of time in which the indictment against the defendant

10 Tadic was moved from, I believe, the end of August 1992 until

11 31st December 1992.

12 Looking at paragraph 4.3, your Honour will notice that

13 the wording as remaining is that "During the period between 25th

14 May 1992 and 31st December 1992 Dusko Tadic physically

15 participated and otherwise assisted in the transfer to an

16 unlawful confinement in Trnopolje camp of non-Serb persons from

17 the Kozarac area".

18 It seems the testimony we are hearing from this

19 particular witness, if it had any impact at all, should have

20 been evidence that was called as part of the first stage of the

21 Prosecution case when they were making their allegations and

22 presenting evidence in support of the indictment. What we have

23 been hearing from this witness, however, in our submission, does

24 not fit into that context at all.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You seem to be raising two points, and I do not

26 recall the -- you are talking about the application to amend the

27 indictment?

28 MR. KAY: Yes.

Page 8178

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. I do not recall whether the request to

2 amend the indictment to extend it from August to December '92

3 was limited to or based on only the testimony of Witness L. So,

4 since the Prosecution has withdrawn Witness L, then it would be

5 your position that, even if Trnopolje is still an issue, it

6 would extend only until August '92 and not go to December '92.

7 That is one issue.

8 MR. KAY: Yes.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then the second issue is just a pure question

10 of whether this is truly rebuttal.

11 MR. KAY: Yes.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Even if it were limited to August '92, is it

13 really appropriately rebuttal evidence?

14 MR. KAY: Yes.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We had several other witnesses, though, who

16 testified about Trnopolje. Dr. Gutic was one; he was there, as

17 I recall -- I did not look at it -- at least through the fall

18 of '92. I do not why I am thinking October, but at least

19 through the fall. I do not know whether he was there in

20 December. I just do not remember.

21 We have had other testimony regarding Trnopolje at

22 other periods. I suppose we could go back and see whether the

23 only testimony to go beyond August '92 would have been Witness

24 L. I just do not have that kind of grasp, except I am almost

25 positive that Dr. Gutic was talking about the fall of '92.

26 MR. KAY: Yes.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He is the one I remember because he gave so

28 much testimony on Trnopolje.

Page 8179

1 MR. KAY: Yes.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have anything else?

3 MR. KAY: I can perhaps assist your Honour with my recollection

4 concerning the other witnesses. There was Mr. Adil Jakupovic

5 who was there until the ----

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: And his wife.

7 MR. KAY: --- 2nd December '92 who said that he saw Dusko Tadic

8 there, I believe, on one occasion. There was his wife, Nasiha

9 Jakupovic, who may have given testimony to a similar degree. At

10 that stage it was all pre-Witness L evidence. What we are

11 considering in 4.3 is the wording "physically participated and

12 otherwise assisted in the transfer to an unlawful confinement in

13 Trnopolje camp of non-Serb persons".

14 Our submission is that what we are hearing now at this

15 stage is not rebuttal, and I also link it to this specific point

16 because the Court may be concerned with relevancy at this stage

17 to these matters that we say do not assist the Court in relation

18 to the allegations within the indictment.

19 If we had wanted to continue with our evidence

20 concerning Trnopolje, we could have done so. We actually

21 limited the evidence from our investigator, Mr. Petrovic, who

22 could have advised the Court further about the surrounding area

23 of Trnopolje, all focused upon the Witness L, (redacted),

24 testimony and the products of his research in relation to those

25 allegations. Because it was seen as being a dead issue by that

26 stage, we, of course, limited the material that we produced

27 before the Court because there was no point. There is no point

28 in us dealing with those allegations from him because we were no

Page 8180

1 longer concerned with them.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: First of all, I do not recall Witness L

3 testifying that Mr. Tadic participated or otherwise assisted in

4 the transfer ----

5 MR. KAY: No.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- of persons to Trnopolje camp anyway. That

7 is alleged in 4.3. Maybe he did. But I never understood that

8 the Trnopolje issue was out of the case because of the

9 Prosecution's decision no longer to rely on the testimony of

10 Witness L as being truthful, because there are many witnesses

11 who have testified about Trnopolje and in paragraph 4 you have

12 allegations regarding Trnopolje ----

13 MR. KAY: Yes.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- which do not relate to L.

15 MR. KAY: Yes.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Anyway, we have heard a lot of witnesses, but

17 let us see what the Prosecution has to say. Let me ask you, is

18 it your position that Trnopolje is not an issue in the case?

19 MR. KAY: No, it is within count 1, the persecution count. We do not

20 seek to avoid that, but the evidence we are hearing now should

21 have been called at the first stage of the Prosecution case.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is the second issue. OK. Mr. Niemann,

23 what evidence offered by the Defence would this proposed

24 testimony of the witness be designed to rebut?

25 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, the evidence of the Defence suggests a

26 number of things in relation to Mr. Tadic's attendance at or

27 participation in Trnopolje camp. Included among those things is

28 attending the camp in relation to the humanitarian reasons

Page 8181

1 connected with the Red Cross, connected with discussions with

2 the witnesses about housing.

3 There is also a suggestion arising from the Defence

4 evidence that the Kozarac police had no jurisdiction in the

5 area, so he could not have come there on official business

6 because the police simply had no jurisdiction over the Trnopolje

7 camp; that, in fact, was allocated to another police force.

8 In addition to that, your Honours, there is evidence

9 that the Defence put on in their case that he was so busily

10 employed and involved with the commission of housing, the

11 housing commission enquiry that was going on during this

12 relevant period, that really he would not have had much time to

13 do anything else but to attend to these duties.

14 So these are the impressions that were created by the

15 Defence case which this evidence is intended to address.

16 Dealing, your Honour, with the question of this idea

17 that the date leading up to December 31st is limited only to

18 Witness L's testimony. That is simply not correct. It was not

19 only Witness L's testimony that brought about the amendment. We

20 submitted 22 statements in relation to this amendment to the

21 indictment on 1st September 1995. The witness Adil Jakupovic

22 speaks of the accused being at the camp in December '92 and

23 Jusuf Arifagic also gave evidence that he was there on

24 1st October 1992. So there is some evidence in relation to

25 that. But this evidence is called, particularly the evidence of

26 visits to the camp is called, to rebut that impression created

27 by the Defence that he was only there on a couple of occasions;

28 when he went there, he certainly could not have gone there on

Page 8182

1 police duty and he was there for humanitarian reasons and,

2 indeed, he was so busily occupied with his housing commission

3 duties that he simply could not really have had much time to get

4 there. That is the purpose of it, your Honours.

5 (The learned Judges conferred)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Regarding the limitation period, December 22nd,

7 you have indicated that you submitted 22, did you say, witness

8 statements? Of course, this Chamber would not know about that

9 since the proposed amendment would go to the confirming Judge.

10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But our concern really is what this evidence is

12 designed to rebut. I think everything that you say is true, and

13 that is that there was testimony from the Defence that

14 Mr. Tadic's duties were as you have said in his visits and the

15 question of whether he was really even on the camp grounds

16 proper. But the proposed testimony of Mrs. Campara deals with

17 hearsay, which of course is not a problem in the Chamber, but

18 regarding rapes that occurred at a particular house, and I do

19 not know how far she is going to get with that, but at that

20 point, at least, that does not implicate Mr. Tadic ----

21 MR. NIEMANN: No, not at all, your Honour, not in relation to those

22 events.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- on the camp grounds. So that sounds more

24 like the kind of testimony that Dr. Gutic gave and it sounds

25 more like the kind of evidence that you could have adduced

26 during your case in chief. Our concern is that this not be a

27 practise of offering additional evidence that you would have had

28 an opportunity to offer on the case in chief.

Page 8183

1 So the specific testimony that she is about to offer

2 does not appear to rebut any of those things, because she is not

3 going to say that she saw Mr. Tadic then participate in these.

4 She has already said that she saw him in the school which would

5 be the camp proper. I do not think it deals with the other

6 issues.

7 So, we will find that this does go beyond the

8 Defence's case, that it is not rebuttal of any of the evidence

9 but new evidence that could have been elicited during the

10 Prosecution's case in chief.

11 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, just for my guidance, am I permitted to

12 ask questions about Mr. Tadic being at the camp?

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. That clearly has been raised by the

14 Defence, and where he was, what he was doing etc., yes. OK.

15 Would you ask Mrs. Campara to return?

16 MRS. ADVIJA CAMPARA, recalled.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, you may continue.

18 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

19 Q. Madam, before the morning adjournment, you had told us in the

20 course of your evidence that during the period of time that you

21 were in the Trnopolje camp, from late September through to the

22 end of November, you had seen the accused Dule Tadic come into

23 the camp on quite a number -- I think you said quite often, is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Are you able to tell us approximately how many times you think

27 it is that you saw him enter the camp? I know it is not easy to

28 remember precisely, but can you give us a figure which you think

Page 8184

1 is close to the number of times you saw him?

2 A. I can very -- with certainty state that that was more than 20

3 times.

4 Q. When you say him enter the camp during this period, was he on

5 his own or was he with other people or was it a mixture of ----

6 A. Sometimes he was on his own. It depended; sometimes on his own,

7 sometimes in the company of other people.

8 Q. When he came to the camp, did he always come into the camp

9 itself or did he just come to the area or was it a mixture of

10 both on those occasions?

11 A. Every time I saw him in the camp itself.

12 Q. When you say "in the camp", is there any particular part of the

13 camp that you saw him go to?

14 A. Well, it was still warmer when I would go outside, I had with me

15 two small children of my brother, otherwise we were at the

16 school. I see him outside but very often also inside the

17 school.

18 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. No further questions, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, cross-examination?

20 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

21 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

22 Q. Could you be provided with a piece of paper and write down on it

23 the country in which you are presently living at the moment and

24 the name of the town? Could you write down the name of the

25 particular country?

26 A. Where I live at the moment?

27 Q. Yes.

28 A. Maybe I did not write it sort of very clearly, but I did write

Page 8185

1 that down.

2 Q. Thank you. If that could be shown to the Prosecution and then

3 to the Court? Then it would, perhaps, be appropriate to seal it

4 as an Exhibit, your Honour, as the next Defence Exhibit which

5 would be D103.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 103?


8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be admitted and sealed.

9 MR. KAY (To the witness): Can you tell us, please, when you were

10 first asked to be a witness in this case, if you could give me

11 the date?

12 A. How do you mean? What date? When I had my first interview?

13 I do not quite understand what you mean.

14 Q. Have you been interviewed then by the Prosecution?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When was that?

17 A. I think in 1994.

18 Q. What month was that?

19 A. I think it was October.

20 Q. When were you asked to be a witness in the case of the

21 Prosecution against Dusko Tadic? You do not have to give me the

22 precise day, just the month.

23 A. I think that was somewhere in November, end of September.

24 Q. Of this year, 1996?

25 A. Yes, in September, thereabouts.

26 Q. Before you were asked to be a witness, had you seen any of the

27 proceedings on television in that country where you are living?

28 A. No, [redacted] does not present anything about Bosnia, so

Page 8186

1 I have no opportunity to see any of it.

2 Q. Had you read anything about it in the newspapers in that

3 country?

4 A. No. I think my head is full of everything for my whole life. I

5 do not think I need anything else to remind me of it.

6 Q. So that country where you are living in has not had any of the

7 proceedings against Dusko Tadic in this Court on television, is

8 that what you are saying?

9 A. No, I do not even watch television.

10 Q. Do you have a television where you live?

11 A. Yes, I do have a television, but I do not watch it at all. I do

12 not speak the language well at all.

13 Q. But some of the witnesses giving evidence in this Court have

14 been speaking in your own language of Serbo-Croat?

15 A. I mostly do not watch.

16 Q. But originally you said there was nothing about this case on the

17 television in the country ----

18 A. I can state there with certainty that [redacted] does

19 not show any of it.

20 Q. Not in any of the news programmes?

21 A. No. Maybe at first when the trial had actually started, maybe

22 they just only mentioned that the trial was starting. That was

23 all.

24 Q. Before the trial against Mr. Tadic started, had you seen any

25 programmes on [redacted] making allegations

26 against him?

27 A. No.

28 Q. You have given us your married name. What is your own family

Page 8187

1 name, your name before you were married?

2 A. Jakupovic.

3 Q. Are you related to Adil Jakupovic or Nasiha Jakupovic?

4 A. Yes, with Adil. He comes from the same village I come from.

5 Q. Is he a blood relative of yours or are you distant cousins?

6 What is the connection?

7 A. I cannot really say. He is a relative, not really a close one,

8 but a relative.

9 Q. Do you know his family well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know his wife Nasiha well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you see her these days? Have you seen her recently?

14 A. Not after, after I left Prijedor, I have not, and I do not know

15 where she lives.

16 Q. Have you spoken to her at all, perhaps on the telephone or any

17 other way?

18 A. No, I can tell you I do not really know where she lives, where

19 she is at present.

20 Q. I would just like to ask you a few questions about what happened

21 to you in Prijedor in relation to the flat that you had in

22 Pecani. You mentioned a man called Stevo. Do you know what his

23 last name is?

24 A. No, I did know his last name but I know he comes from Gomjenac.

25 Q. Did you know what his job was, what his employment was?

26 A. No.

27 Q. You described him as being present when your flat was taken from

28 you. Did you know then ----

Page 8188

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. --- what his job was?

3 A. No, but I could have supposed that he was there in order to help

4 Rajko.

5 Q. Did he have any official capacity to help the man Karanovic?

6 A. I do not know whether they have known each other from before.

7 Later on I heard that Rajko picked him up at a cafe. First,

8 they had drinks and then Rajko told him, "Come with me to help

9 me, to help me, I need you to do some job". That was told to me

10 by a neighbour of mine, a Serb.

11 Q. So it seems that Rajko was using this man as some sort of

12 physical support rather than any official capacity?

13 A. Yes, both, because there was a reason why he showed the insignia

14 on his sleeve saying that he was on all the front lines and

15 there was for good reason that he earned that.

16 Q. But that was the man Stevo who had been on the front lines, not

17 the man Rajko Karanovic?

18 A. Yes, Stevo had been on the front lines.

19 Q. What Stevo was doing there was boasting about his military

20 involvement rather than any official position he had?

21 A. Yes, but he would not have been able to get that insignia had he

22 not held some official duty.

23 Q. The insignia you refer to, is it a rank or a badge of office?

24 What do you mean by that?

25 A. I do not know. As much as I could see at that moment.

26 I remember because he was very near me. I was sitting on my

27 daughter's bed and he was, I think, at that time on his knees

28 because he was holding the automatic rifle. So we must have

Page 8189

1 been at the same sort of height and his left hand was near me

2 and, as much as I could see, it was red and white in colour.

3 Maybe at that moment -- but there was something like the white

4 eagles, something like that.

5 Q. But, so far as you could tell, his only involvement came about

6 because he was met in a bar and told to come along rather than

7 because he was appointed to help the man Karanovic?

8 A. I do not know that.

9 Q. You said a neighbour had told you that Karanovic had met him in

10 a bar.

11 A. Yes, but Karanovic could not just come and pick up just anybody,

12 that is, he knew who he was going to take along.

13 Q. The piece of paper, you say, was never seen by you?

14 A. No, I did not see it. It was -- this woman that was living with

15 me, my cousin's wife, she was staying with me, and the telephone

16 number was the one of her parents' house. Her parents lived in

17 Puharska. Some 10 minutes before they came to expel me, she was

18 on the phone and so she jotted down that phone number in order

19 to be able to phone them.

20 Q. Did you know Dusko Tadic was evicted from his flat in Pecani?

21 A. I do not know what flat you mean. What Dusko Tadic's flat in

22 Pecani?

23 Q. When you saw this man Stevo again, how long after the taking of

24 your flat was that?

25 A. Well, some, I think, end of July, early August, somewhere during

26 that period of time.

27 Q. Whereabouts did you see this man then?

28 A. In Raskovaci, in Timka's and Sado's house. I do not know their

Page 8190

1 last name. But I know that that man was released from Omarska,

2 that man Sado.

3 Q. The place you have told us about, Raskovaci, whereabouts is that

4 in relation to Prijedor?

5 A. That is -- how can I explain -- just behind the old town, what

6 used to be the old town before. Now it does not exist any

7 more. There is a road that leads to the road Bosanski

8 Novi/Prijedor, and there you have got the Raskovac part of the

9 town. While I was in Pecani, there was only a canal separating

10 us. In fact, it is a part of Prijedor.

11 Q. Thank you. It is a part of Prijedor that exists near the road

12 that would take you out to Bosanski Novi, is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you saw this man on this occasion, was he taking someone

15 else's house then?

16 A. No. Then he came to visit Timka and Sado. He was with Aco.

17 I only know Aco by his first name. I do not know his last

18 name. I know he was a driver at the town hall.

19 Q. Was he a friend of your friends at Raskovac?

20 A. Aco, yes, and Stevo was there for the first time, because Stevo

21 was later on the checkpoint just behind Raskovac, at the very

22 end of the street in Raskovac, which takes you to the road

23 Prijedor/Bosanski Novi, and probably whilst going back home from

24 the checkpoint he came to see with Aco, he came to see Timka and

25 Sado.

26 Q. So was he a soldier then on the checkpoint?

27 A. No, there was a group of them and I think that he was the head

28 of them. There was not just one soldier at the checkpoint.

Page 8191

1 There were several soldiers and then there was also somebody who

2 was in charge of the soldiers. I think he had some kind of a

3 duty.

4 Q. Then did you learn that he worked at this checkpoint guarding

5 the checkpoint?

6 A. I found that out beforehand. My daughter once went to the store

7 with my neighbour, because there was a discount place -- it was

8 about 1.5 kilometres from where I lived -- and when she returned

9 she was all blushing and she said there was that man who threw

10 us out of the apartment down there.

11 Q. So, it does not seem then that he was involved in politics

12 within the municipality?

13 A. I do not know what you mean by "active". In fact, you need to

14 clarify it a little.

15 Q. He does not seem to have had any job or position within the

16 municipality in Prijedor?

17 A. I never said that he had a position in the Prijedor

18 municipality; only that he came with the man who was driving for

19 the municipality. He came alongside with him.

20 Q. So, it seems then you agree with what I have asked you about, is

21 that right?

22 A. What point you are making?

23 Q. Please allow me to make the points. If you can just answer the

24 questions and not think I am making any points. He does not

25 have any job then, so far as you know, within the municipality

26 of Kozarac?

27 A. I never once mentioned the municipality of Kozarac, only the

28 Prijedor municipality.

Page 8192

1 Q. Perhaps if you could answer the question from what you learnt

2 about him? He did not seem to have any position within the

3 municipality of Kozarac?

4 A. I really do not understand you.

5 Q. Perhaps if you can answer the question, if you can?


7 THE WITNESS: I do not know what connection Stevo may have and the

8 municipality of Kozarac. When we were talking about the

9 municipality of Prijedor, we talked about how he came and who he

10 came with, how I met him.

11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, if you wanted some assistance, if the witness

12 could take her headphones off, I can explain to the Court.

13 I think your Honour probably understands why I am asking the

14 question.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, go ahead.

16 MR. KAY: Yes. (To the witness): I would like to ask you some

17 questions now about Trnopolje. That was ----

18 MR. NIEMANN: The witness has taken her headphones off.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Campara, you may put your headphones back

20 on.

21 MR. KAY: I would like to ask you some questions now about Trnopolje

22 which was a place that you stayed in from, I believe you told

23 us, the end of September until 25th or 26th November?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Before that you had visited Trnopolje on how many occasions?

26 A. Maybe three or four times.

27 Q. When was your first visit to Trnopolje?

28 A. I do not recall the date exactly, whether in the period when

Page 8193

1 I was there, I think that we went on foot. I think that a group

2 of women from Puharksa from the 14th and 21st of July, in that

3 period.

4 Q. What was the purpose of your visit to Trnopolje in July?

5 A. A group from Omarska arrived -- in fact, at that time they did

6 not come. There were stories. We were always expecting

7 somebody to call, but that was all false information. So,

8 apparently, a group arrived. So, obviously, I went to see if my

9 husband arrived.

10 Q. Did you have to have any special permission to travel to

11 Trnopolje on that day?

12 A. Yes, right away on 14th. In fact on 13th when I went to the SUP

13 I had to take out a permit with my name and my sister-in-law's

14 and the children so we could move.

15 Q. The purpose of that permit was to show at checkpoints the reason

16 for your journey and where you were going, would that be right?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Your second visit to Trnopolje, can you remember when that was?

19 A. Maybe end of June. I had already move moved to Raskovac.

20 I know once I went from Puharska in that period of between the

21 14th and 21st.

22 Q. What was the purpose of your visit to Trnopolje on that

23 occasion?

24 A. The same purpose. Again, in fact at that time one group did

25 arrive from Omarska.

26 Q. The third visit to Trnopolje, what was the purpose of that?

27 A. Again the same kind of visit. Again I went to see whether my

28 husband arrived.

Page 8194

1 Q. Can you remember when that was?

2 A. I do not know exactly when the Keraterm camp was dissolved.

3 I know that at that time there was a group that came from

4 Omarska. Keraterm had been dissolved and one group of people

5 was moved from Keraterm to Trnopolje. For one group it was

6 never found out where they went. There was a cousin, I did not

7 know about him until the war broke out, so when I went to

8 Trnopolje once I found this cousin who had come from Keraterm.

9 Q. As on first visit, for the other visits did you have the same

10 certificates to permit you to travel?

11 A. Yes. That was free movement. That is what the permit was

12 called. If you got it from the SUP you could move around

13 freely.

14 Q. But you could only go to that place where the certificate said

15 you were going, which would have been a permit that permitted

16 you to travel to Trnopolje?

17 A. No, it was not only Trnopolje. It was just freedom of

18 movement. That is what it said on the permit.

19 Q. Did it say on the permit where you were going?

20 A. No.

21 Q. In relation to these visits, how long did you stay at Trnopolje

22 camp?

23 A. An hour or two, thereabouts, because we needed to come back and

24 we were going on foot or on bicycles.

25 Q. During these visits did you go into the camp or did you wait

26 outside?

27 A. The first time when I went in that period between the 14th and

28 21st, at that time the camp was fenced in and you had to give

Page 8195

1 the ID at the headquarters where the cafe used to be. You would

2 pick it up again after you came out. The second time, yes, the

3 second time I had help when I looked for my husband. There was

4 a young man who used to work in the store ware of ours. In fact

5 you could not even cross that fence any more.

6 Q. The third time did you go into the camp yourself?

7 A. Yes. At that time, yes, because there was a big crowd of

8 people, 1500 to 2000 people at that time.

9 Q. Then you yourself went to Trnopolje with your daughter and your

10 brother's two children and stayed there from 27th September?

11 A. Yes, because the inmates were going on 1st October and my

12 brother thought that I could leave with them or at least bring

13 the children. I could not do either. So the house where I was

14 staying some people moved in right away.

15 Q. So the purpose of you going there at the end of September was to

16 see if you could get on one of the buses or coaches that were to

17 take people away from the camp?

18 A. Yes, and simply I had no supplies left. I had nothing to live

19 on, and I did not dare to go on the convoys that the Serbs

20 organised. There were bloody convoys. I had three children on

21 me and I did not dare embark on such a journey.

22 Q. Did others like you also take the same step of going to

23 Trnopolje at about that time in September to try to get on a

24 convoy out of the Prijedor area?

25 A. Yes, I think that there were about 3,000 of us inmates remained.

26 Q. During this time that you were at Trnopolje, you would have been

27 there at the same time as the Jakupovic family, would that be

28 right?

Page 8196

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Whilst you were there presumably you were waiting to get on a

3 convoy so that, again, you could leave the area and leave the

4 camp?

5 A. In the beginning, not later, yes.

6 Q. Whilst you were there during those two months, were you able to

7 leave the camp at all? Did you go outside the camp and go

8 elsewhere during the daytime?

9 A. I went on two or three occasions to Prijedor to buy and we had

10 to pay the person who was bringing the bread, and we would pay

11 him so that he would take us behind, behind the tarpaulin like

12 cattle and take us to Prijedor. Two or three times is when

13 I went.

14 Q. During these occasions that you were at the camp, you say you

15 saw Dule Tadic very often?

16 A. Yes, very often.

17 Q. It would have been not quite two months, almost two months that

18 you were there?

19 A. Almost two months.

20 Q. You say that with certainty it would have been 20 times that you

21 saw him?

22 A. Certainly.

23 Q. You have described him being dressed in a military or a police

24 uniform?

25 A. Yes, and I remember well that he had his sleeves turned up on

26 his shirt.

27 Q. Was that on each occasion, each of the 20 occasions he arrived

28 with his sleeves rolled up?

Page 8197

1 A. No, but I know when I -- maybe once or twice I remember.

2 Whether it was every time, I think that is too much to ask, for

3 me to know exactly.

4 Q. The police uniform you say that he wore, what kind of uniform

5 was that?

6 A. Dark blue. It was camouflage uniform. Not wholly white. It

7 was not just multi-coloured and blue, but also grey and blue.

8 Q. So, it was what we would call a blue camouflage uniform, would

9 that be right, blue being the predominant colour?

10 A. Yes, blue. Yes, a blue camouflage uniform. Yes.

11 Q. Did he have a hat at all?

12 A. No. Maybe sometimes, but as far as I recall he was always

13 without one.

14 Q. Do you know how he arrived at the camp, how he travelled?

15 A. I do not know. I was coming out very rarely. I rarely went to

16 the gate, so I could not see how he arrived. But I would see

17 him in the camp, either in the school building or if the weather

18 was nice outside, when I was outside and he had come.

19 Q. So there seem to have been occasions then when you were outside

20 and not just in the building?

21 A. I did not say that I did not -- but there was a fence. It was

22 well-known. That all counted as the camp. Outside of the camp

23 was when you got out past the checkpoint.

24 Q. When you got the bread from the man who delivered bread to you,

25 where did you get the bread from?

26 A. From Prijedor. He was bringing in bread and he was selling it

27 to us.

28 Q. But whereabouts did you get the bread from him?

Page 8198

1 A. At first he would come into the yard itself and then later there

2 was a gate there farther down just for pedestrians and before

3 the war there was a gate for vehicles. Then he would pull in in

4 reverse and sometimes he would stop on the road itself. Then we

5 would form a line and would get in.

6 Q. The military uniform you said that you saw Dusko Tadic in, are

7 you able to describe that for us, how that looked to you?

8 A. I think it was an overall and it was grey and olive, drab.

9 I think that that is what it was, as far as I can recall.

10 Q. So what we would call a green camouflage uniform?

11 A. No, not camouflage, I did not say that. I think it was a green,

12 olive green.

13 Q. So just a single colour?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So then in these two months you saw him what would amount to

16 every third day, something like that, would that be right?

17 A. Maybe even every other day.

18 Q. Right, every other day, very, very frequently?

19 A. Yes, very frequently.

20 Q. When he was in his police uniform, what was he doing?

21 A. I do not know. I never knew the purpose of his coming, but

22 I knew that he did, he was coming.

23 Q. Was he directing traffic or on a checkpoint? What was he doing

24 in his police uniform, can you remember?

25 A. No. No, he did not -- there was no traffic there. There was no

26 checkpoint. The checkpoints were around the camp and he was

27 inside the camp.

28 Q. But without any particular purpose, so far as you could see?

Page 8199

1 A. Yes, but again I do not believe that he would just come in for

2 nothing.

3 Q. When he was in his military uniform what was he doing?

4 A. As far as I recall, the first time when he came he came to look

5 for Adil Jakupovic and his family. The second time when the

6 inmates were leaving on 1st October, that may have been a period

7 of two days there.

8 Q. So these are two occasions that you can specifically tell us

9 that he was doing something in particular, seeing ----

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. --- seeing Adil Jakupovic and being there when the convoy of

12 buses was leaving Trnopolje which would have been, what, 1st or

13 2nd October after you had been there a few days?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Those other -- well, if I may ask you first of all about when he

16 came to see Adil Jakupovic. Did you see him then or was it

17 because Nasiha or Adil had told you that Dusko Tadic had seen

18 Adil?

19 A. I saw him in person myself.

20 Q. Did you speak to him?

21 A. No, we never talked. Before the war we did not even greet each

22 other.

23 Q. Did you know him before the war?

24 A. Very well, because we lived maybe 150 metres apart.

25 Q. Are you related to the police chief in Prijedor, former police

26 chief, a man called Tulundzic?

27 A. No. In fact I do not even know that man.

28 Q. On the other occasions that you saw Dusko Tadic, did you just

Page 8200

1 see him outside in the camp or in any of the buildings of the

2 camp?

3 A. Both in the school building and outside.

4 Q. Again now thinking about it a few years later, can you think of

5 anything in particular that he was doing on any of those other

6 visits?

7 A. No, I cannot recall. I think that for me at that time it was

8 something normal. Simply I was used to seeing this man there

9 every other day. So I was not paying any particular attention

10 to it.

11 Q. In relation to the school building, where would you have been

12 when you saw him at the school? Would you have been inside the

13 building yourself?

14 A. Inside the building, because there were about 3,000 of us and

15 there were only two bathrooms. So since the very morning there

16 may be 200 to 300 people lining up and it went on until the

17 night. There was a staircase maybe 10 metres, so he had to pass

18 right there to go upstairs.

19 Q. The school building was a place where a number of the people

20 were held. It was full of women and children, is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did the school building have any administration within it for

23 the camp or any other rooms relating to the running of the camp?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So these every other days that you were seeing him then inside

26 the school building, it seems as though he was visiting people

27 there? No other reason for him to be there?

28 A. Yes. I do not know. I know on that occasion that he came to

Page 8201

1 visit Adil and Nasiha and later I do not.

2 Q. There are no other buildings connected with any or rooms

3 connected with the running of the camp inside the school. It

4 just held women and children and some men?

5 A. Yes, there were also a lot of men and after the inmates left,

6 before they left there were a lot of inmates and there were

7 tents that those poor people somehow made from blankets and

8 plastic foil, and when they left there were 1500, 1600 people.

9 Then there were people in the dom, a lot of people there, and in

10 the school building. That is another school building, not the

11 dom part of the school.

12 Q. What I ----


14 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry to interrupt my friend, but there were three

15 redactions which I thought I should attend to.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you want to finish where you are?

17 MR. KAY: I am just about to finish.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do we have time for redactions or should we do

19 them now?

20 MR. NIEMANN: They may have been attended to, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The places, yes, they have been. Excuse me,

22 Mr. Kay, go ahead.

23 MR. KAY: I thought I would be able to finish it. It may be the case

24 that I cannot, your Honour. What I will do is I will put my

25 case to this witness at this stage and then continue after the

26 luncheon adjournment.

27 (To the witness): What I suggest to you is that you

28 have made up all these visits to Trnopolje at this time?

Page 8202

1 A. I have no need to make up things. I can only omit something

2 because there was so much of it that I cannot even recall all of

3 it, but not make up or add anything.

4 Q. Yes, because you are so unhappy about the experiences to you

5 Dusko Tadic is someone who gives you an opportunity to make

6 allegations against?

7 A. No. No, I have nothing against that man.

8 MR. KAY: That is a convenient moment.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

10 (1.00 p.m.)

11 (Luncheon Adjournment)


















Page 8203

1 (2.30 p.m.)

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, Mr. Niemann?

3 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honours. May we request a redaction

4 formally? I understand it has been attended to but, for the

5 record, at points 12.20.14, 12.21.46 and 12.22.18.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There is no objection?

7 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be granted.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I understand the redaction machine has

10 speeded up so we may move a little quicker, if necessary, in the

11 course of the evidence.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May make the request within a shorter period of

13 time?

14 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. We need to do that. 15 minutes -- is that

16 a goal? OK, 15 minutes. Very good. Ask the witness to come

17 in, please.

18 ADVIJA CAMPARA, recalled.

19 Cross-examined by MR. KAY, continued.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you like to continue?

21 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

22 Q. When you were at Trnopolje, were you in the same part of the

23 school building as Nasiha Jakupovic?

24 A. No, I was on the ground floor and Nasiha was on the upper floor.

25 Q. So you were both in the same building, were you?

26 A. Yes.

27 MR. KAY: That is all I ask.


Page 8204

1 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.

2 Re-Examined by MR. NIEMANN

3 Q. Madam, you were asked some questions about giving a statement to

4 the Office of the Prosecutor previous to you coming to Court.

5 Do you remember those questions?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The Office of the Prosecutor's representatives, investigators,

8 visited your home in October 1994, is that correct?

9 A. I do not know whether it is exactly in October, but I know that

10 it was in 1994.

11 Q. When there took a statement from your husband ----

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. --- and did they take a statement from you at all when they were

14 there?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Madam, when you were in the camp at Trnopolje in the period of

17 time that you were there, did you either see or hear of anyone

18 being mistreated or taken away from the camp and mistreated?

19 A. In the evenings it could happen and that usually happened in the

20 hall in the school building. That was on the ground floor.

21 They would be taking out men, sometimes even women, but at that

22 time they were mostly asking for money.

23 Q. Did you know what happened to these people that were taken out?

24 A. At first, they would be beaten up. At that time they knew that

25 the inmates were not there, and most of those people which had

26 to go with inmates had the money, and later on they had to give

27 them a sum of money they were asking for. Sometimes they did

28 not have the exact sum.

Page 8205

1 MR. KAY: I rise to my feet again, your Honour, as I fail again to

2 see how this arises from cross-examination and, furthermore,

3 what it has to do with the Prosecution rebuttal of the Defence

4 case.


6 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, during the course of the

7 cross-examination, Mr. Kay questioned the witness particularly

8 about the visits by Mr. Tadic and said, among other things,

9 suggested, that there was no other reason but an innocent

10 purpose of visiting people for him coming into the camp. In our

11 submission, there could well be other explanations as to why

12 people were coming into the camp other than an innocent

13 explanation of simply visiting people. It is in relation to

14 that that these questions are directed.


16 MR. KAY: Again, could the witness take her headphones off?

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Witness, would you take your headphones off,

18 please, Mrs. Campara?

19 MR. KAY: Again I do not ----

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We did not ask the witness if she speaks

21 English, but anyway .....

22 MR. KAY: Again, your Honour, I fail to see how this is a rebuttal of

23 the Defence case.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Even if it is not a rebuttal of the Defence

25 case, is it covered by cross? Because, even if it is not a part

26 of the rebuttal, if it is covered by cross, then that would be

27 sufficient.

28 MR. KAY: It is not and it fails any test of relevancy that I am

Page 8206

1 aware of because what this witness is saying is nothing to do

2 with Mr. Tadic at all, the fact that other people may visit

3 Trnopolje, the fact that she may hear that other people have had

4 money taken from them. We are concerned with Mr. Tadic's case

5 here. If the Prosecution are going to go on this line of

6 opening all of the issues in the case, we are going to get a

7 stage where the trial will never end.

8 (The learned Judges conferred)

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will overrule the objection. Mr. Niemann?

10 MR. NIEMANN: Excuse me, your Honour.

11 Q. Did you see these events happen yourself -- madam, did you see

12 these events with people being taken out yourself? Was this

13 something you observed yourself?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. These people being taken out, were they taken out by the guards

16 or by the people who visited the camp or a combination of both?

17 A. That was not to be seen. It was very dark. There was no

18 electricity. It all happened very late in the evening.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. I have no further questions.


21 Further cross-examined by MR. KAY

22 Q. So from what you tell us then, madam, the occasions when you

23 cited Dusko Tadic at Trnopolje were not at night visiting

24 people?

25 A. No.

26 MR. KAY: That is all I ask.

27 THE WITNESS: I do not know that. I do not know whether he was

28 visiting at night. I saw him during the day because at night

Page 8207

1 you could not see anybody's face and recognise it.


3 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

4 Examined by the Court

5 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, I had not understood before what the feeding

6 arrangements were at Trnopolje. I rather gather that there was

7 no kitchen and no food supplied for the inmates, is that so or

8 not?

9 A. At the beginning maybe for about a week when the inmates left,

10 we were receiving food from the International Red Cross. These

11 were one-day packets of food. After that they stopped taking

12 that food. They were bringing in flour, but we did not get any

13 flour, the Serbs got it, and we for about a week got a quarter

14 of a bread loaf, and after that that was abolished and we had to

15 pay for the bread and there was no kitchen.

16 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, do you have additional questions?

18 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.


20 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to the witness being

22 permanently excused?

23 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Campara, you are free to leave. You are

25 permanently excused. Thank you for coming.

26 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

27 (The witness withdrew)

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, would you call the next witness?

Page 8208

1 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. The Prosecution calls Mrs. Munevera

2 Kulasic.


4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Kulasic, would you please take the oath

5 that is being handed to you?

6 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

8 (The witness was sworn)

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

10 Examined by MR. KEEGAN

11 Q. Ma'am, your name is Munevera Kulasic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where are you from?

14 A. From Prijedor.

15 Q. How long have you lived in Prijedor?

16 A. I was born in Prijedor and I lived there up until the

17 9th October, apart from a four year period, four years and some

18 two months, whilst I was a student in Zagreb.

19 Q. What did you study when you were in Zagreb?

20 A. I am an economist. That means that I studied at the Economic

21 Faculty in Zagreb.

22 Q. Before the war did you work in Prijedor?

23 A. Yes, I worked since 1965 for some 14 years in the mining complex

24 in Ljubija and after that in the Commercial Bank up until --

25 since 1980 till 20th June 1992.

26 Q. Did you live in your own apartment before the war?

27 A. Yes, I had my own apartment.

28 Q. Who was that apartment owned by?

Page 8209

1 A. The mining complex, Ljubija.

2 Q. Are you familiar with an apartment located at Pecani,

3 building B, entrance No. 2 in Prijedor?

4 A. In Pecani, in that building, lived my sister with her family.

5 Q. Who was your sister married to?

6 A. Her husband's name is Hasan Talundzic.

7 Q. Did Hasan Talundzic and your sister leave that apartment in

8 1992?

9 A. Yes, first the wife, then the children and he left later on in

10 May, somewhere in mid May or at the end of May. I do not know

11 the exact date. I think it was at the end of May.

12 Q. What position did Hasan Talundzic have when he left Prijedor?

13 A. Up until the takeover by the Serbs, he was the head of the SUP.

14 Q. Did someone else in your family move into that apartment?

15 A. Maybe I should explain to you that at that time we were

16 considering that maybe the apartment could be kept in case

17 somebody would be living in there, as on the 30th May the old

18 town, this part of Prijedor which is called the old town, so on

19 30th May in the evening, on 30th to 31st May, that part of town,

20 people were moved out of it and a good deal of it was even

21 destroyed. My mother's sister, that is my aunt, that used to

22 live in the old town and did not have any place to live then,

23 and also her son's house was destroyed, the son's house which

24 was somewhere else.

25 Then what we did was that she would go in that

26 apartment which belonged to my sister and Hasan Talundzic. So

27 that was maybe on 3rd, 4th or 5th June. I cannot remember the

28 exact date. Another one of my sisters registered her with a

Page 8210

1 particular police department which was concerned with this

2 particular street in Pecani, because whoever lived in a

3 different part of town or started to live in a different part of

4 town had to get registered. So, we put her in that flat and in

5 order for her not to be alone, my mother went there with another

6 of our sisters and so there were three of them in that

7 particular apartment.

8 Q. How many sisters do you have altogether?

9 A. I have five sisters and a brother.

10 Q. You said that the apartment belonged to your sister and Hasan

11 Talundzic. Who actually owned the apartment?

12 A. The mining complex, Ljubija. Maybe I should explain to you, the

13 mining complex, Ljubija, it is a very big company that had a

14 large number of apartments. Just before the war, there were

15 some 5,000 employees there in the mining complex.

16 Q. Did they have a number of apartments in that particular

17 building, the mining company?

18 A. In that building and elsewhere in Prijedor.

19 Q. Were there any people monitoring or acting as security at the

20 entrance to that building?

21 A. Not only in that building, but in all the buildings -- that was

22 in June, after 30th May when that attack on Prijedor happened as

23 it was described, that is, since that crisis situation -- in all

24 the apartment buildings there were guards, not really guards,

25 people who used to live in those houses, those buildings. They

26 were there monitoring who was going into the building, who he

27 was visiting and when that person was leaving. That was

28 supposed to be done for all the people who were not residents in

Page 8211

1 a particular building. So, that was also true for that

2 particular building and it was registered who was going in and

3 out. I know that because I used to visit my mother and every

4 time that I would go in I was registered, and they would ask me

5 who I was going to visit and they would also record the time

6 when I would be going out of it.

7 Q. Was the Ljubija mine company recording who was living in the

8 apartments which it owned in the building?

9 A. Not at first, because somewhere from mid June onwards there was

10 some kind of a committee formed by the mining company and they

11 were going around these apartments to check whether the people

12 who were there were those who used to live there before, and who

13 actually had these particular apartments allocated to them,

14 because at that time one way or the other some people had left

15 the apartments where they used to live before the war. That

16 particular committee made a register of who was actually living

17 in their apartments, whether rightfully or not.

18 Q. Can you describe this apartment? How big was it?

19 A. It was quite a big apartment. We had two bedrooms and I think

20 it had a bit more than 80 square metres, between 80 and 90

21 square metres. A two bedroom apartment and a living room.

22 Q. What position had Hasan Talundzic had in order to be able to get

23 this apartment?

24 A. Hasan Talundzic was an engineer, an electricity engineer, at the

25 time when he got his first one bedroom apartment as an expert

26 working in a particular company. From that one bedroom

27 apartment he moved into this two bedroom apartment, I think, for

28 some two years before the beginning of the war. He also had

Page 8212

1 three children of different -- both boys and girl, different

2 sex, and when the committee was allocating apartments he was

3 allocated a bigger one.

4 Q. Was this apartment considered to be a large apartment in terms

5 of the other apartments that are available in the area?

6 A. Yes, because some two or three years, maybe even longer, before

7 that, a decision was made that no three bedroom apartments would

8 be built. So that was a couple of years before the beginning of

9 the war when the larger than two bedrooms apartments stopped

10 being built in Prijedor.

11 Q. You indicated that you had visited your sister while she lived

12 there. Did you also help your sister decorate this apartment?

13 A. Yes, in a way I felt the obligation to do so. I was the second

14 child out of seven children that my parents had and all my life

15 I tried to help my family. So I also helped them whilst they

16 were moving from the smaller into this larger apartment, and

17 I have obviously visited them very often.

18 Q. At the time that your sister and her husband left the area and

19 the other members of your family moved in, was the apartment

20 fully furnished?

21 A. Yes, it was fully furnished.

22 Q. Can you describe some of the details of the furnishings that

23 were in that apartment, please?

24 A. Oh, yes, I can do that very easily, but before that, I do not

25 know whether you are aware of it, but Bosnian Muslims in general

26 give extreme -- pay very much attention to the apartments

27 because they do spend quite a lot of time in their apartments,

28 depending on their financial situation. It depends how they are

Page 8213

1 going to decorate it and furnish it. As my sister and her

2 husband had a very high standard, maybe more than the average,

3 then they decorated this flat very, very nicely.

4 As an example, I can describe the largest room in the

5 apartment. It is a living room. Those were apartments that

6 later on were sort of decorated in a more modern way, so the

7 dining area was in the same room as the living room. So there

8 were no separations and it was quite large, eight by four

9 metres, and there was a separate kitchen where food was

10 prepared.

11 That room, I said there were two parts of the room.

12 In the upper part towards the windows, there was a hand woven

13 carpet. There was also a sofa and there were hand woven

14 curtains on the windows. In the other part where there was a

15 dining table there was a dark blue carpet. So I hope that you

16 could have an idea of what the room -- how the room was

17 furnished. There was obviously a stereo there and there was a

18 chest of drawers, and there were also some plants that went very

19 high up to the ceiling. They used to have those plants for some

20 seven or eight years was the time that it took for those plants

21 to grow so up high. There were also some large Chinese vases

22 there. It was a very nice living area.

23 The other part of the apartment was also furnished.

24 My sister's bedroom had all the necessary, necessary furniture

25 in there with all the carpets. The beds -- and the carpets were

26 also woven.

27 In the third room which they used to call the

28 children's room, that room was quite large. There was even a

Page 8214

1 possibility to separate it in two smaller rooms. They thought

2 maybe of doing it because they had two girls and a boy because

3 that room had two windows and two doors. That was particularly

4 built in that way in order for people to have this possibility

5 to separate it into two rooms. There was a sofa bed which was

6 dark blue and there was another bed where the girls were

7 sleeping. There was this time a normal, a carpet, industrial

8 type of carpet, on the floor.

9 The kitchen was normally furnished with all the

10 necessary appliances. There was the fridge, the cooker and all

11 the necessary crockery and cutlery.

12 Q. Did your sister and a husband have a television set in the

13 apartment?

14 A. No, no, there was no TV.

15 Q. Did they have other valuables such as silver sets and handmade

16 embroidery?

17 A. Yes, there was also a embroidered table cloths and they had a

18 silver set of -- it was a big tray maybe half a metre long,

19 maybe even longer, by 35 centimetres maybe, with implements for

20 sugar, for coffee and it was non-standard. He inherited it from

21 his mother who got it from his son who lives in Canada. I know

22 that it was worth, I just happen to know it was worth about

23 3,000 Canadian dollars. They also had a crystal objects, unique

24 objects. There were vases and glassware and such.

25 Q. On about 20th June 1992, were you staying in that apartment with

26 your mother and your aunt and your sister?

27 A. I would like to correct you. It was not approximately. It was

28 exactly on that date.

Page 8215

1 Q. How do you remember that date?

2 A. We all who are present here probably remember when you started

3 working the first day on a job, and one is even likely to

4 remember the last day on a job. That was the last day of my

5 work, and after I finished my day I went to my mother's and

6 stayed there the night. She was not feeling too well. So

7 I found myself there the next day as well.

8 Q. What happened on the morning of 20th?

9 A. In the morning I did what I usually do. I went and bought bread

10 and milk and very soon after my return two policemen came. That

11 was the civilian police, that is, the police force that was

12 called "militia" at that time. So two of them came and one of

13 them entered the room and the other one stayed in the hallway.

14 He explained -- first, he asked who lived there, who

15 and what they were and the other one was inspecting the

16 apartment. I was -- I do not know what he was looking for.

17 I did not accompany him there, but the gentleman who came into

18 the living room for a while sat at this table and I sat across

19 from him. He said that my mother could not be in that

20 apartment, that the man whose apartment it was was not there and

21 so that they would have to leave.

22 For a while I discussed this with him, trying to

23 explain that this was my sister's apartment and why. However,

24 this conversation, I do not know how long it went on, but not

25 too long, this man left after that. But at that time he did not

26 insist that we leave.

27 Q. You said these two men were civilian police. Can you describe

28 the uniforms that they were wearing?

Page 8216

1 A. Yes. The one who stayed in the hallway, I cannot say exactly,

2 but the one who went -- came into the room, he had a light blue

3 shirt and darker blue pants. That was the civilian police

4 uniform at the time. I know that he was wearing a shirt only at

5 the top.

6 Q. Did they search through the apartment while they were there?

7 A. The gentleman who talked to me did not and I think that the

8 other one did go round.

9 Q. After these policemen left, did some other men arrive at your

10 apartment?

11 A. Yes, and that may have been after about half an hour to an hour,

12 two gentlemen arrived, one of whom I know very well and they

13 both introduced themselves. They said that they were from the

14 commission for apartments for the Ljubija mining company, that

15 they were making -- that they were checking to see whether

16 people who had the leases on these apartments actually lived in

17 them.

18 Q. What did these men do while they were in your apartment?

19 A. Again they came to the living area. They sat down at the table

20 and one of them, actually both of them, had maps, like ledgers

21 -- I do not know how you call them -- in which they entered

22 notes.

23 Q. What were your mother and sister doing while these men were in

24 the apartment?

25 A. My sister was sitting and my mother was lying down. That day my

26 mother was not feeling too well. So she was still in her

27 morning clothes and she was lying on the couch.

28 Q. While these men were in your apartment did something else

Page 8217

1 happen?

2 A. Those men were in the apartment. One was sitting across from me

3 and one next to me and I was facing one, the one -- the

4 gentleman, his name is Boro Simic and he was a civil engineer at

5 the Ljubija mining company. They started writing down the basic

6 data about the apartment, and at that moment, as far as I could

7 see, two men in uniforms entered the apartment.

8 Q. Did you know either of these men when you first saw them?

9 A. The two that entered, no, I did not know them.

10 Q. What did these men do who came into your apartment in uniform?

11 A. When they walked in, I had an impression that they were

12 surprised to have found these other two men in the house. One

13 of them addressed the two men asking, "What are you two doing

14 here? Who are you?"

15 Q. Did the men from the Ljubija mine committee explain what they

16 were doing?

17 A. Yes. Mr. Simic introduced both of them and told them the reason

18 why they were there.

19 Q. What did the men in uniform say to the men from the Ljubija

20 mine?

21 A. One of the two in uniforms said that they had no business being

22 there, and he told them to leave the apartment.

23 Q. Did they?

24 A. The men from Ljubija tried to explain again, and the other one

25 would not allow him that and he ordered him to leave, that they

26 had no business in that apartment any more.

27 Q. Did you later learn the identity of this man in uniform who was

28 talking to the men from the Ljubija mine?

Page 8218

1 A. For one, yes, for the other one, no.

2 Q. What was the name of the man who was doing the talking?

3 A. Dusko Tadic.

4 Q. How was Dusko Tadic dressed when you saw him?

5 A. He had a camouflage uniform on him.

6 Q. What was the primary colour of that camouflage uniform?

7 A. It is green and brown, you know, like the camouflage military

8 uniform that the military wear.

9 Q. Can you describe the other man who was with Dusko Tadic?

10 A. I only saw one of them because he entered the room. Whether

11 there were others outside or in other rooms -- my mother says

12 that there were another two of them but I never saw them. So

13 the other one had the olive green pants and black t-shirt, and

14 black gloves with no fingers. At that time, at least our

15 impression at that time, was that it was an image of a sniper,

16 whether -- that the snipers wore such outfits but I do not know

17 if that is true.

18 Q. What colour hair did this other man have, the one with the black

19 t-shirt and the olive green pants?

20 A. It was a young man rather lanky, brown hair, rather light,

21 somewhat pale complexion with a small, not very full, beard like

22 this and that is what he wore it. The remainder of the face was

23 clean shaven. It was just down here.

24 Q. For the record, your Honour, the gesture the witness made

25 appeared to be under the chin coming to a point?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Once Borislav or Boro Simic and the other man left, what

28 happened?

Page 8219

1 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may I object to this evidence which I have

2 allowed to take it as far as it has, and it goes to the whole

3 purpose of rebuttal evidence in this trial. From what we have

4 heard so far, there is no reason why the Prosecution could not

5 have called this evidence as part of its main case. When L ----


7 MR. KAY: I am grateful for your Honour noticing that. Could the

8 witness remove the headphones, your Honour?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Witness, would you please take off your

10 headphones?

11 (The witness removed her headphones)

12 MR. KAY: What the Court should be hearing now is evidence that would

13 not have been reasonably anticipated in the presentation of the

14 Prosecution case. When the Defence sought to recall L for

15 further cross-examination, the stipulation of the Court was that

16 we were only allowed to raise issues that we could not have

17 reasonably foreseen when cross-examining him on the first

18 occasion that we did so. We advised the Court appropriately of

19 the issues we were to deal with.

20 In relation to this evidence, the Court was aware from

21 the presentation of the Prosecution case that as part of their

22 profile against the defendant on a number of occasions they

23 referred to the flat in Pecani and its previous occupation by

24 Mr. Talundzic, as the head of the SUP, as being something that

25 was provided for him and, in those circumstances, something,

26 because of his position, would only have been provided for him.

27 In relation to the evidence that we are hearing now,

28 this material should have formed part of the original

Page 8220

1 Prosecution case. It is not material that is arrived at at a

2 later stage to rebut issues exclusively raised by the Defence,

3 to rebut issues in relation to the case by which the Prosecution

4 are taken by surprise; far from it.

5 This forms part of the major framework of their case

6 and, from the evidence that we have heard, there is no

7 indication why this evidence has to be called after the Defence

8 has closed its case. It seems to me that the purpose of

9 rebuttal evidence may be being used by the Prosecution to have

10 what we could call as a second bite of the cherry to reconstruct

11 the case.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Or "apple" -- I thought you were going to say

13 "apple".

14 MR. KEEGAN: It is an apple where we come from.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Some places "apples", others whatever,

16 plums perhaps. We have heard a lot about that. Mr. Keegan?

17 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. In fact, I think my friend misjudges

18 part, in fact the majority, as I would submit, of the purpose of

19 rebuttal, and that is to rebut the evidence brought forward by

20 the Defence if they so choose. In fact, the accused and his

21 wife testify in great deal about how they came about, how they

22 came to receive this apartment and then the circumstances under

23 which the transfer of the apartment was made. This evidence is

24 going to rebut that particular story.

25 (The learned Judges conferred)

26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will overrule your objection.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You need to put your headphones back on.

28 (The witness replaced her headphones)

Page 8221

1 MR. KEEGAN: Miss Kulasic, the last question I asked was after the

2 men from the Ljubija mining company left, what happened next?

3 A. Then Dusko Tadic told us that we had to leave the apartment.

4 I tried to explain that this was my mother, that this was the

5 apartment of her daughter, but he said, "Let her go to her

6 apartment. She has nothing to do here", and that we had to

7 leave the apartment.

8 Q. In what tone was he addressing you? How was he speaking to you?

9 A. That was in a rather raised voice, rather like giving an order

10 to which you could not object. You could try to talk, but it

11 was basically an ordering tone of the voice.

12 Q. Did you try to explain to him that it was your apartment?

13 A. No. I explained that it was the apartment of my sister's, that

14 it was theirs and he said, "No, they are not there any more, so

15 it is not their apartment any more".

16 Q. Did you manage to sit down and try to fill out some paperwork

17 with respect to the apartment?

18 A. Yes, I was sitting at that table, as I -- and I told you where

19 I was sitting and then I said, "All right, the apartment belongs

20 to the Ljubija mining complex, but the things in it, the

21 property, belongs to my sister and her husband. They bought

22 it." He said, "OK, we will make an inventory of it".

23 Q. Who wrote out this inventory?

24 A. He took a piece of paper and wrote: "A complete bedroom, a

25 fully furnished living room, fully finished -- a kitchen"

26 without any details.

27 Q. Then what did he do with it?

28 A. He signed that piece of paper. He gave it to me. I signed it

Page 8222

1 too, and when I tried to take it he said, "Oh, no, you don't

2 need this."

3 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Keegan, who is "he"?

4 MR. KEEGAN: What was the name that was signed to the piece of paper?

5 A. Dusko, Dusko Tadic, Dusko Tadic.

6 Q. During this time what were your mother and your sister doing?

7 A. While he was writing this down, this inventory, I was trying to

8 convince my mother that she should get up and get dressed so

9 that we can get going.

10 Q. Did Dusko Tadic make any comments about the belongings when you

11 explained about the belongings to him, the possessions in the

12 apartment?

13 A. No, he said, "Here, we all wrote it all down and then this will

14 be decided on. We put together a report". But if that was a

15 whole inventory report, then I should have had it and he said,

16 "No, you don't need it". Then after that I said, "Well, in

17 that house there are also books, children's books. It is

18 something that is theirs. They need it, their toys", and he

19 said, "No, those children will not need these things. They will

20 not be coming back here. They will never need it again". That

21 is how he said it.

22 Q. Once the inventory was done, what did Dusko Tadic say to you?

23 A. No, then he said, "It is over. You have to go." So he hurried

24 us so that we would leave as soon as possible.

25 Q. What do you mean when you say he "hurried" you?

26 A. That we had to leave fast, this apartment, that we had to leave

27 the apartment, that we could not be there any more.

28 Q. Did he give you time to pack your clothes and other things that

Page 8223

1 you wanted to take with you?

2 A. No. We took it very hastily. My mother collected her things

3 and then I said, "Well, give me those things". She had some of

4 her personal things because she had been staying there for about

5 15 days by then. So there were a few belongings of the aunt,

6 and she hastily collected those things and I took my clothing.

7 At the time I had a jogging suit on and after I changed from

8 work, and so we took it out in front of the apartment to the

9 staircase in our arms.

10 Q. How old is your mother?

11 A. My mother is now exactly 80 years old.

12 Q. At this time were you, your mother and sister afraid for your

13 safety?

14 A. Of course. Every time somebody in a uniform came to the

15 apartment caused fear to the person in whose apartment they were

16 entering. That was already the atmosphere there at the time.

17 Q. Approximately, how long from the time that Dusko Tadic first

18 came into your apartment was it before you were forced out the

19 door?

20 A. Maybe it was about 15 minutes, I do not know exactly, but it was

21 a very short period of time, however long it took when I talked

22 to them, and let us call that a report was written, and then my

23 mother collecting her belongings and then we had to leave.

24 Q. The belongings that you managed to collect, you were able to

25 carry out in your arms out to the hallway?

26 A. Yes, except that I also took out two vases which I could not

27 take with me when we went back to our house. So I left it with

28 a neighbour so that I would collect them later. That is all --

Page 8224

1 all that I took of the possessions in the apartment.

2 Q. Was Dusko Tadic armed during the time that he was in the

3 apartment? Did he have a weapon?

4 A. Yes, but that was the time when people in uniform, I never saw

5 anybody who did not have -- who did not carry weapons on them.

6 Q. When you were out in the hall what did you see happen next?

7 A. Before we left the apartment, the civilian policeman that

8 I mentioned before, he had just arrived again, and as he looked

9 through the door towards the living area he was now surprised

10 too a little bit to see those other people there, and Dusko

11 turned to him and he said, "What are you looking here? You have

12 no business there". So that person left, that civilian

13 policeman.

14 Q. Then what happened out in the hallway?

15 A. When we left the apartment, we were the first ones to leave and

16 after that the two of them left, Dusko Tadic. That is the

17 moment when I learned his name. He changed the lock on the door

18 and put a note on the door where it read "Dusko Tadic". That is

19 when I read it and then I learned his real name because I could

20 not very well see the signature on the piece of paper.

21 Q. Was there anything else on the paper besides the name "Dusko

22 Tadic" that was put on the door?

23 A. There was also a number, I cannot remember the number exactly.

24 I think it was something like "BP" and a number. I think that

25 was a record number of some unit, a military unit. They used to

26 put some kind of particular record numbers in the -- when the

27 military would be moving into particular apartments.

28 Q. Did you later call the apartment to try to get your sister's

Page 8225

1 belongings?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who did you speak to the first time you called?

4 A. Before I called that apartment on Monday morning, I went to the

5 police station to report what had happened, still believing that

6 the police was in charge of the order in the town.

7 Q. Were you able to get any help at the police station?

8 A. When I explained what apartment it was and to whom it belonged,

9 the man I talked to looked at me in surprise. He called

10 somebody on the phone and told me to wait outside.

11 Q. While you were waiting what did you see?

12 A. Whilst I was waiting outside in the hallway of the police

13 station, I saw that from the opposite door, the door opposite to

14 the entrance of the police station, a man in a uniform was

15 taking a civilian, a citizen of Prijedor whom I knew very well

16 and of whom I had earlier heard he was in the Omarska camp.

17 Q. What happened when you saw that?

18 A. When that man was taken out of the building I was at that moment

19 thinking, I have already said whose apartment that was. The

20 husband of my sister was not in town any more. Nobody knew

21 where he was. I became scared and I left the SUP building.

22 I simply left. I did not wait for them to call me back in.

23 Q. Then did you later call the apartment?

24 A. After that, I think about a day or two later, I phoned the

25 apartment of my sister.

26 Q. Who ----

27 A. And I asked whether Dusko was there. A female voice answered

28 the phone. At first, the first time round I think that was a

Page 8226

1 voice of an older woman and she said Dusko was not there.

2 I called again, I cannot remember whether the same day or the

3 day after, and then a younger female voice answered the phone

4 and I realised this was Dusan Tadic's wife. I talked to her.

5 Q. Did you ask to retrieve the property of your sister?

6 A. Yes, I introduced myself. I said I was the sister of the woman

7 to whom the apartment belonged. I asked when I could get their

8 belongings that were in the apartment. Then that woman in a

9 very astonished voice said, "And what do you think you should

10 get?"

11 Q. Did you make any arrangements with that woman to get the

12 property of your sister back?

13 A. I said, "I think that I should get everything that is in the

14 apartment which is privately owned by my sister".

15 Q. What did she respond?

16 A. She did not say anything to me then. The next time I phoned

17 I talked to Dusko. I asked when he would be at home. She told

18 me that, and the next telephone call I talked to him.

19 Q. This response, you said, in a voice of astonishment, "What do

20 you think you should get?" how did you take that answer? What

21 did you think she meant by that answer?

22 A. She was astonished that I was asking for anything, where did

23 I get the right to ask for anything from that apartment? That

24 is why she said, "What do you think you should get? Where do

25 you have the right to ask for anything?"

26 Q. Did you later talk to Dusko Tadic on the phone about your

27 sister's property?

28 A. Yes, I talked to him. He told me that his wife had told him

Page 8227

1 about my telephone call and he said, "OK". He asked me where

2 I lived. I told him where I lived, where my apartment was, and

3 he said that he will bring the things to me. Nobody said what

4 or when. He simply said that he will bring those things to the

5 place where I lived.

6 Q. Did you later see Dusko Tadic? Did he show up at your

7 apartment?

8 A. On that day when he told that he would bring the things, he came

9 with another man. They rang my door bell and we discussed, we

10 talked then.

11 Q. What did he say? What did Dusko Tadic say? Excuse me.

12 A. Dusko Tadic said that he had brought that man so that they could

13 see exactly where I lived, and that that man will bring all the

14 things to me on the following day.

15 Q. The following day were some things delivered to you?

16 A. The following day that man, which had been there with Dusko,

17 brought on a cart driven by horses various things. This cart

18 was a completely flat one, there was no guard rail on them. On

19 that cart there were some seven or eight huge bundles of

20 wardrobe, and on that cart there were also small boxes,

21 cardboard boxes, in one some toys, and in the other some old

22 crockery. Also there was a small bag with crystal pieces, and

23 when the cart pulled up in the courtyard and the bag fell on the

24 concrete floor, and there was this awful noise of the glass

25 breaking when falling on the concrete floor. Later on when

26 I saw it, everything was broken, all that glass.

27 Q. The six or seven bundles, they contained clothing?

28 A. Yes.

Page 8228

1 Q. Did it contain all of the clothing from the apartment?

2 A. No, no, these were mostly children's clothes, and maybe also

3 selected less valuable wardrobe belonging to my sister and her

4 husband. I remember, if it is important, that the suits -- a

5 brand new suit my brother-in-law had never worn was not

6 brought. Also, sort of a military suit was never brought. My

7 sister had a leather suit and also a good jacket. Those things

8 were not there. Those -- there were less good items that were

9 brought from the Adil's wardrobe and the rest belonged to the

10 children, and bundles were formed with sheets and there was

11 nothing else.

12 Q. The silver service, that was not in the items that were brought

13 to you?

14 A. No, not at all.

15 Q. The embroidery, the hand made embroidery, or the hand made

16 curtains, were they brought?

17 A. No, nothing of it.

18 Q. Did you ever see Dusko Tadic on another occasion after this

19 date?

20 A. After that I saw Dusko with his wife on one occasion in the

21 town. They were passing by further away. I saw him with a

22 woman. I did not know at the time it was his wife, but when

23 I saw her in the autumn she was wearing my jacket. I could

24 recognise that jacket. It was a unique piece of clothing. As

25 that woman was wearing it, I decided it was his wife.

26 I saw Dusko on several other occasions from the window

27 of the building where I used to live, that is, from the window

28 of my mother's apartment that was partly overlooking the main

Page 8229

1 street where the building was and he used to walk by in that

2 street. The other part of my mother's apartment was overlooking

3 the courtyard and people were also passing there in order to go

4 to Pecani. I also saw him twice passing through that courtyard,

5 but we never had personal contact afterwards.

6 Q. The jacket that you saw that you recognised, you had left that

7 in your sister's apartment?

8 A. Yes, it was in the apartment. I did not leave it there. That

9 jacket is very characteristic. It was a suit that was unique

10 which I bought. That is why I recall it.

11 MR. KEEGAN: No further questions, your Honour.


13 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

14 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

15 Q. You told the Court that Hasan Talundzic was the Chief of Police

16 in Prijedor, is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. One thing that is not clear to me is why he was in an apartment

19 that belonged to the Ljubija mining company?

20 A. Hasan Talundzic spent just about a year as the Chief of the

21 Police, '91, '92. He was on that -- held that office for about

22 a year, and before that all the time since 1975, he had worked

23 in the Ljubija mining company. His wife had also worked for the

24 mining company.

25 Q. So he was a professional engineer who worked for the Ljubija

26 mining company?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. When he worked for the Ljubija mining company, was he a

Page 8230

1 policeman as well?

2 A. No.

3 Q. He had been the Chief of the Police for one year?

4 A. Yes, roughly speaking. After the elections in 1990/1991, then

5 he was appointed. I think somewhere in early '91 he was

6 appointed Chief of the Police.

7 Q. So would it be right to say this happened, he had previously

8 been an engineer and then, as a result of one of the parties

9 winning the political elections, they appointed him to be Chief

10 of the police station?

11 A. He is, he was not -- did not only used to be, he is still an

12 electrical engineer, and from 1975 till 1991 he worked as an

13 engineer and then he was appointed the Chief of the Police. He

14 was also a reserve first class captain. So he partly knew that

15 type of duty. So that might have been one of the reasons why he

16 was appointed head of the SUP.

17 Q. He had been a captain who was a reserve police officer, is that

18 right?

19 A. No, no, for the military because when he was doing his military

20 service he was in the school for reserve officers and that is

21 why he was a reserve JNA officer.

22 Q. But he was not a reserve police officer before he was made Chief

23 of the Police?

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. His first appointment then to the police station at Prijedor was

26 as Chief of the Police in 1991?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Was it one of the political parties who appointed him as Chief

Page 8231

1 of the Police?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Which one was that?

4 A. That is the Party of Democratic Action had proposed him for the

5 office, but at that time, according to the agreement made by the

6 SDA and the SDS Parties, the SDA proposed a person who would be

7 the head of the SUP, that is, the Chief of the Police and he was

8 appointed after their proposal.

9 Q. He no longer worked for the Ljubija mining company when he was

10 Chief of Police in Prijedor, is that right?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. Was he in any way supposed to move then to a police house, a

13 house connected with the police station?

14 A. I do not understand. You mean for living there or for working?

15 I do not understand your question.

16 Q. For living there, was he entitled or should he have moved to a

17 house that was owned by the police in Prijedor?

18 A. No. No. According to the regulations which were valid at the

19 time, after a certain number of years a person spent with a

20 company or at least a number of years in a particular apartment,

21 one person had what used to be called the right, a tenant's

22 right. That is why Hasan Talundzic could keep the apartment,

23 just as I, who left the mining company in order to go and work

24 in a bank, could keep the tenant's right and the apartment that

25 belonged to the mining company.

26 Q. When the men from the Ljubija mining company came to the flat

27 and your mother was there with your sister, is that right ----

28 A. Yes.

Page 8232

1 Q. --- the men from the Ljubija mining company, had they come to

2 take the flat back?

3 A. No. That commission was touring all the apartments in the town,

4 and they were recording who was living in these apartments. So,

5 they also came to that particular one.

6 Q. Did they mention anything about the fact that Hasan Talundzic,

7 who had previously owned the apartment, was no longer living

8 there?

9 A. No, they did not even have time to say that, because very soon

10 afterwards Dusko came with another man and up until that point

11 they managed to explain who they were, and saying that they were

12 recording who lived in the mining company apartments. They did

13 not have time to say anything else because they were obliged to

14 leave.

15 Q. Did they say why they were recording who was living in the

16 mining company apartments, what the purpose of doing that was?

17 A. They only said that they were recording who was living in and

18 making a register of who was living in their company's

19 apartments. That was all.

20 Q. Did your sister have any right to live there under the agreement

21 with the Ljubija mining company?

22 A. I do not know -- which sister, you mean?

23 Q. The sister who was in the flat with your mother.

24 A. We thought it was normal because this was an apartment which was

25 used by my sister and her husband. So she and my mother could

26 have the right to be there because the apartment was not

27 considered as an abandoned one.

28 Q. All I wanted to know was what the agreement was, whether that

Page 8233

1 was possible under the arrangements with the Ljubija mining

2 company?

3 A. I do not know how things would have developed had we not been

4 expelled from that particular apartment.

5 Q. At this time there were a number of commissions investigating

6 who was living in property in Prijedor, is that right?

7 A. No. That was a commission that was made by the person who -- by

8 the actual owner who constructed these apartments. The same

9 commission was also checking who was living in my apartment, but

10 there was no other commission that was going into the Ljubija

11 mining company apartments. It was only the commission of the

12 Ljubija mining company.

13 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we need to take instructions. That would be

14 an appropriate moment.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What do you mean, you would like to take

16 instructions? You would like an opportunity to confer with

17 counsel?

18 MR. KAY: Expressing it a different way, that is probably what

19 I would say. I was expressing it in my own language.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, that is OK. I was just wondering whether

21 it had anything to do with the timing. We can talk about it

22 when we end today.

23 MR. KAY: Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

25 (3.55 p.m.)

26 (The Court adjourned for a short time)

27 (4.15 p.m.)

28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may continue.

Page 8234

1 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

2 Q. When you spoke to Dusko Tadic in relation to the house of your

3 brother-in-law, he accepted that he was Dusko Tadic and that you

4 were dealing with him?

5 A. Yes, I knew that. I -- as soon as we left the apartment he

6 wrote "Dusko Tadic". When I talk on the phone, I asked for him

7 and he answered and I talked to him. Then he arrived at my door

8 of my apartment and we talked then again. So I had no dilemma

9 about who that man was.

10 Q. In fact, in the apartment itself when you first met him he

11 introduced himself to you as Dusko Tadic?

12 A. No, he did not say what his name was.

13 Q. When your sister moved out of the house, the flat, where did she

14 go to live?

15 A. She did not move out. She only left Prijedor with her children,

16 but she did not move out.

17 Q. She moved, you say she left Prijedor with her children. All

18 I want to know is, where was she living? She moved away from

19 the flat to live elsewhere?

20 A. She was in Croatia at that time.

21 Q. When she left Prijedor to go and live in Croatia, did she take

22 things with her?

23 A. She only took one bag and her three children.

24 Q. If I can put the question this way, were further goods taken

25 from the flat and sent to them after she had left by members of

26 your family?

27 A. No. First of all, even if those things -- if anybody had taken

28 anything because they could not have sent it to them because

Page 8235

1 there was already fighting, the war, so it was impossible to

2 send anything and, besides, my sister did not leave in order not

3 to come back. She just took the children with her because of

4 the situation. It was well-known what the situation was. So

5 she was trying to rescue the children and not move out. Moving

6 out was not her intention.

7 We all thought at that time that it would -- this

8 would last a month or two and everybody would go back to their

9 homes. That is what we all thought at the time.

10 Q. When your aunt was in the flat, she was living there with your

11 mother and another sister, is that right?

12 A. Yes, yes. Yes.

13 Q. When they moved out of the flat, they went to live where?

14 A. My mother returned to her apartment and I was already in my own

15 -- living in my own apartment. The aunt came to live with my

16 mother.

17 Q. So, presumably, when your aunt went to live with your mother,

18 that was in your mother's own flat where she had previously been

19 living before?

20 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Was that a large flat or a small flat?

22 A. My mother had a large apartment.

23 Q. Your sister, did she return to live with her family then in the

24 place where she had always lived before?

25 A. You mean the sister who was there at the time when my mother had

26 to leave the apartment? Is that the sister you have in mind?

27 Q. Yes, I do.

28 A. Yes, that sister was to be with my mother all the time. In

Page 8236

1 fact, I did not mention she had a meningitis case as a small

2 child and was partially retarded, and so she was not able to

3 live on her own.

4 Q. The goods that were delivered from the flat on the cart, were

5 they delivered at your flat or at your sister's flat?

6 A. Again, I do not know exactly what sister, which sister you have

7 in mind. In that part of the building where my mother lived

8 I had my own apartment in the same building and also my mother

9 had her own apartment in that very same building, and let me

10 explain.

11 On the site where this apartment building was built,

12 it was built on the site where our old family house used to

13 stand. So my mother got an equivalent apartment, equivalent to

14 the square area of the house which she used to have, which was

15 about 110 metres. Now, that may not have been a perfect match

16 to the square area, but that was the largest apartment they had

17 in the building so they offered it to her when they tore down

18 her house.

19 Q. Because at one stage before they left the flat, as I understand

20 it, it was your aunt, your mother and your sister who were

21 living in the flat of Hasan Talundzic?

22 A. Yes, after 30th May when part -- the section of Prijedor was

23 destroyed where my mother -- my sister lived, then my aunt,

24 where my aunt used to live, then after this was destroyed she

25 moved to the apartment where Hasan Talundzic used to live and

26 she moved in there together with my mother and my sister.

27 Q. The place where your sister then went to live, having moved out

28 of that apartment in Pecani, presumably, was already furnished?

Page 8237

1 It already had goods within that flat?

2 A. I do not understand the question.

3 Q. The place where your sister went to live, having given up the

4 flat to Dusko Tadic, and your aunt had to live, having given up

5 the flat to Dusko Tadic, those places were already furnished?

6 A. Where my sister, my mother and myself at that time, we did not

7 leave the apartment in order to give it over to Dusko Tadic. We

8 were literally kicked out of that apartment. Before that my

9 mother had her own apartment which she got from the Ljubija

10 mining company as compensation for the house that was torn

11 down. She lived in there with the sister and another sister and

12 the brother and she returned to that apartment. Obviously, the

13 aunt followed there. The sister whose apartment it was, the

14 wife of Hasan Talundzic, went with a bag and her three children

15 and she was in refugee facilities, I do not know what, in

16 Croatia. Later she moved on and went to Germany.

17 Q. I will use your language. The apartment that your sister, your

18 aunt and your mother were kicked out of, where they then went to

19 live were already furnished apartments, is that right?

20 A. Yes, the mother went back to her own apartment. Obviously, she

21 had a furnished apartment.

22 Q. So, there was a problem to store things such as the table and

23 cupboards that were in the apartment that had belonged to Hasan

24 Talundzic?

25 A. No, there was no problem of that kind. I had my own garage in

26 Prijedor which was empty and my brother, on the eve of the war,

27 had also bought a business space which was also empty where a

28 lot more furniture could have been stored than the amount of

Page 8238

1 furniture that was in that apartment. So there was space for

2 those possessions, had I received them.

3 Q. Were you the only person who was talking to Dusko Tadic, or did

4 your sister also speak to Dusko Tadic?

5 A. My sister could not talk to him. As I said, she is partially

6 mentally handicapped after she had meningitis as a young child,

7 but my mother and I remember very well. She said -- my sister

8 had just made some food and she said, "Let her finish the food"

9 to which he said angrily that she would -- would she want to

10 just fly out of the window?

11 Q. Because what I suggest to you is this, that some of the

12 furniture could not be taken from that flat because there was a

13 problem in storing it, and the clothes were something that could

14 be taken from the flat and that you agreed should be delivered

15 to you as Mr. Tadic arranged and did?

16 A. I requested the things that were in the apartments. As I said,

17 I only received bundles with clothing and, again I repeat, we

18 had two spaces. I had an empty garage and my brother's business

19 space. It is very easy to dismantle the furniture and send it

20 there because when I had to leave my apartment, I disassembled

21 and dismantled all of my furniture and moved it, some to my

22 mother's apartment and some to the garage. So there was space

23 available for the possessions from my sister's apartment, but

24 I was not given it.

25 Q. When you say you saw Mira Tadic wearing a jacket that belonged

26 to you, did it not fit her properly?

27 A. Yes, that was a jacket that was part of a set. It was knee

28 length and I recognised it. Maybe it is not important, but it

Page 8239

1 was a unique piece of clothing and it was an exhibit at a fair

2 and that is what I was told by the lady who sold it to me.

3 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.


5 Re-Examined by MR. KEEGAN

6 MR. KEEGAN: Just one, your Honour.

7 Q. With respect to your brother-in-law's apartment and the issue of

8 the ownership of that apartment, your brother-in-law, Hasan

9 Talundzic, and your sister still had the right to return to that

10 apartment at the time you were kicked out of it, did they not?

11 A. Yes, had my sister been in Prijedor, she would normally go into

12 the apartment and live there unless somebody else in the uniform

13 would come in and kick her out; otherwise nobody would move her

14 from that apartment.

15 Q. Did your sister and brother-in-law leave Prijedor out of fear

16 for the safety of their family and themselves?

17 A. My sister left with her children precisely because of that

18 reason and there were other women who left at that time, but she

19 had an additional reason which was her husband's position in the

20 city at the time. He was still in Prijedor but not in his

21 apartment. He was -- he did not dare be there.

22 I could maybe relate a detail here: all Muslims who

23 were earlier in the TO or had military uniforms as reserve

24 personnel had to turn it in, return it to the military, and in

25 my sister's apartment there was a military uniform and a

26 military book and everybody who would come to the apartment,

27 because earlier other people showed up to search and they were

28 all looking over this military uniform, but they were all

Page 8240

1 leaving it there. I can only assume they thought that he would

2 come back. So it is interesting that the military uniform was

3 never taken away from this apartment and the Muslims had to turn

4 in all their uniforms.

5 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.


7 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.

8 Examined by the Court

9 JUDGE STEPHEN: One question, witness, and it is what happened to

10 Mr. Talundzic? Did he manage to escape from Bosnia?

11 A. Mr. Talundzic at that time was in Prijedor. I can say that

12 now. He was at his sister's of whom most of those people did

13 not know that it was his sister because she did not have the

14 same last name. So he was staying with that sister of his. It

15 is later -- it was later that I found out that at the end of

16 July he managed to leave Prijedor.

17 JUDGE STEPHEN: That is all I wanted to know. Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: He is alive. Thank God he is alive -- unlike the

19 husband of my other sister's, a husband who remained in Omarska.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, do you have additional questions?

21 MR. KEEGAN: No, your Honour.


23 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Kulasic being

25 permanently excused?

26 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Kulasic, you are permanently excused. You

28 are free to leave. Thank you for coming.

Page 8241

1 THE WITNESS: I also want to thank you for giving me an opportunity

2 to say what I had to say.

3 (The witness withdrew)

4 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Keegan, much as been said in this trial about

5 uniforms, SMB uniforms, olive green uniforms and so on. I was

6 wondering whether you could provide us with pictures of the

7 various types of uniforms?

8 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. We can go through the archives that

9 we have.

10 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you call your next witness?

12 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, the next witness is Fikret Kadiric.

13 FIKRET KADIRIC, called.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is

15 being handed to you?

16 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18 (The witness was sworn)

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

20 Examined by MR. TIEGER

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may begin.

22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, your name is Fikret Kadiric?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where were you born?

26 A. The village of Rizvanovici, Prijedor municipality.

27 Q. Were you also raised in Rizvanovici?

28 A. Yes.

Page 8242

1 Q. How large was your family, the family you grew up with?

2 A. Father, mother and six children.

3 Q. How many brothers, how many sisters?

4 A. Four brothers and two sisters.

5 Q. Perhaps anticipating a question, if I could have the witness

6 shown Exhibit 280, perhaps we could have the witness indicate

7 where Rizvanovici is -- you have found it?

8 JUDGE STEPHEN: We have found it.

9 MR. TIEGER: OK. Mr. Kadiric, where did you go to school?

10 A. The elementary school I finished in Rizvanovici, then the

11 secondary in Prijedor and education -- school for education of

12 pedagogics in Zagreb, in Petrina.

13 Q. So you trained as a teacher?

14 A. Yes, at first.

15 Q. Did you subsequently work as a teacher in Rizvanovici?

16 A. Yes, around nine years.

17 Q. After nine years as a teacher, did you change careers and join

18 the police force in Prijedor in 1975?

19 A. Yes, to be exact, on 1st March 1975 I moved to the police.

20 Q. At the time you joined the police department in opstina

21 Prijedor, how many Muslims were member -- first of all, let me

22 ask you, what is your nationality?

23 A. Muslim, Bosnian.

24 Q. At the time you joined the police department in Prijedor in 1975

25 how many Muslim members of the police force were there?

26 A. I remember that the ethnic structure was lopsided. It was 15 to

27 18 per cent Muslim.

28 Q. When you began in 1975, did you begin your career as an

Page 8243

1 assistant to the Commander of the main Prijedor station?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In 1977, did you become Commander of the police unit or branch

4 in Kozarac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In 1978, did you return to Prijedor again as an assistant to the

7 Commander, this time in charge of the criminal department?

8 A. Yes, that is right.

9 Q. In 1981 did you become acting Commander of the police station in

10 Prijedor?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In 1985 or early 1986, did you become Commander of the police

13 station in Prijedor?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did the police station in Prijedor also have responsibility for

16 the outlying units or branches in places like Kozarac and

17 Omarska?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Kadiric, in 1991 were the administrative positions of the

20 police department redistributed in accordance with or in

21 response to the election?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who took your position as Commander of the police?

24 A. Dusan Jankovic.

25 Q. Which Party had nominated him?

26 A. SDS.

27 Q. Did you know him as someone who was closely associated with SDS

28 and its leadership?

Page 8244

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you see him frequently in conference or together with

3 leaders of the SDS Party?

4 A. Yes, especially after he was appointed the Commander of the

5 police station.

6 Q. Who was appointed head of the SUP, the public security

7 services?

8 A. Hasan Talundzic.

9 Q. Which Party appointed him or nominated him?

10 A. SDA.

11 Q. Were you a member of either SDA or SDS?

12 A. No.

13 Q. When Dusan Jankovic took your position as chief of the Prijedor

14 police, what position were you moved to?

15 A. I became a Commander of the traffic police unit by appointment

16 from the Ministry.

17 Q. What was the national composition or ethnic composition of the

18 traffic police at the time you became Commander of the traffic

19 police?

20 A. Again lopsided.

21 Q. Who was the deputy Commander of the traffic police when you

22 became Commander?

23 A. Ziad Basic.

24 Q. Was he replaced by someone?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Was Ziad Basic the deputy Commander of the traffic police when

27 you were Commander?

28 A. Yes.

Page 8245

1 Q. Did you know a man named Djuro Prpos?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did he work for the traffic police?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was his position?

6 A. He was a deputy Commander of the traffic police. He was my

7 deputy.

8 Q. There maybe some confusion with the question. What was Ziad

9 Basic's position?

10 A. He was an assistant Commander of the traffic police.

11 Q. Was that a position below deputy Commander?

12 A. You mean the assistant?

13 Q. Yes. Which position was subordinate and which position was

14 superior between the deputy Commander and the assistant

15 Commander in the traffic police?

16 A. It is -- the hierarchy is the Commander, the deputy, the

17 assistant.

18 Q. Did you also know a man known as Zoran Cvijic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was he a member of the traffic police in Prijedor?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What part of the traffic police did he work in?

23 A. When I came to duty to the station, he was working at the desk.

24 He had a desk job, an administrative job.

25 Q. Was there any reason why Zoran Cvijic was working at a desk job

26 rather than on patrol?

27 A. Apparently, he had been sick.

28 Q. What kind of illness?

Page 8246

1 A. Apparently, it was nerves. It was the nerves.

2 Q. What kind of reputation did he have as a traffic police officer?

3 A. He was not -- he did not have a great reputation. A lot of

4 people -- his colleagues thought that he was faking.

5 Q. Was he in addition to the complaints of nerves, a nervous

6 condition, was he trusted as someone who could be on patrol?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was appointment or selection to the traffic police considered a

9 desirable position or considered a desirable appointment?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Why was that?

12 A. Among them there was an opinion that this was a privileged

13 position and so everybody who worked at the station, they all

14 wanted to go into the traffic unit.

15 Q. Was it an easy or a difficult job to obtain? Did it require any

16 effort or connections to obtain that position?

17 A. In my opinion, what I could see from most who worked there, most

18 of them got to get those duties through some connection.

19 Q. You indicated that it was considered something of a privileged

20 position and people wanted to get into traffic. In what way was

21 it seen as privileged or attractive?

22 A. First of all, the job was easier because you used a vehicle.

23 The population that you worked with was an easier population to

24 work with, motorists, and there were fewer, there was less risk,

25 risk for one's life.

26 Q. How were traffic policemen regarded by members of the general

27 population?

28 A. They had more respect from people than the regular policemen in

Page 8247

1 the station.

2 Q. Is that respect because people admired them or respect for

3 another reason?

4 A. Simply because they were afraid.

5 Q. In what way were members of the general public afraid of the

6 traffic police?

7 A. Not so much the general population, but the motorists, because a

8 lot of people drove under influence and would know what

9 sanctions there would be if they would be caught when under

10 influence, or if he make any violations they could have their

11 driver's licence revoked or some other similar sanctions, which

12 for those people was very damaging, especially if they had to

13 stop working and that was their only profession.

14 Q. Would the significance of the work performed or the

15 responsibilities or role of the traffic police be increased or

16 decreased during wartime?

17 A. I think that in the beginning, in the first period, their duties

18 would be increased and then maybe later after all the events

19 that took place, in my opinion, their duties and

20 responsibilities would be diminishing more and more.

21 Q. Why would the role of the traffic police be increased at some

22 point during wartime?

23 A. Because everything that was going -- everything that was

24 happening was going by the roads.

25 Q. Mr. Kadiric, we have heard evidence in this Court that the

26 takeover of opstina Prijedor and of the police department took

27 place on the night of April 29th/the morning of April 30th. Do

28 you recall where you were that night?

Page 8248

1 A. I was at my father's in his village.

2 Q. That was not your normal place of residence?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Had you gone to your father's home at least in part because of

5 threats or warnings which you had received that day?

6 A. Yes, precisely because of that.

7 Q. With respect to the threats, did you receive them in person or

8 over the phone?

9 A. Over the phone.

10 Q. What was said to you? What was said to you over the phone?

11 A. An unknown voice phoned. They cursed my Ustasha mother saying,

12 "We will come and get you. You will soon be liquidated".

13 Q. Were you able to recognise the voice of the person who was

14 making those threats either during that particular call or any

15 subsequent calls?

16 A. After the second phone call I felt that I somehow knew that

17 voice, I noticed that.

18 Q. Who did you believe that was?

19 A. I am convinced that that was the voice of a former policeman who

20 was expelled from duties and his name was Ralic Radovan.

21 Q. Do you know what he was doing at that time, what his work was?

22 A. He was in the so-called police. That was at the garrison of the

23 JNA, in the barracks of the JNA, in Prijedor.

24 Q. You indicated that you were in Rizvanovici when the takeover

25 occurred. How did you actually learn that the takeover had

26 taken place?

27 A. In the morning of the 30th, around 5 o'clock in the morning,

28 I heard hard knocks at the entrance door of my father's house.

Page 8249

1 I cautiously left and looked through the door and I saw two

2 policemen. I opened the door. I saw that they were scared and

3 not even waiting for me to ask them what was going on, they told

4 me that Prijedor had fallen.

5 Q. What nationality were these policemen?

6 A. They were Muslim.

7 Q. Did they say what had happened to the policemen of Prijedor, the

8 Muslim policemen of Prijedor?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was that?

11 A. They were on duty that morning when the Serb police, armed and

12 helped and supported by the Yugoslav Army, had disarmed all the

13 policemen that were non-Serbs, that is Muslims and Croats, and

14 they had sent them home. In other words, they were ordered to

15 go away.

16 Q. Did the Muslim policemen who came to your door indicate to you

17 whether you should or should not go to the police station that

18 day?

19 A. Yes, they told me not to go, because I was looked for.

20 Q. Did you remain in the in Rizvanovici until ----

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. --- until after the attack on Hambarine on May 23rd?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At that time did you then flee to the Pecani neighbourhood of

25 Prijedor to your sister-in-law's home?

26 A. My home was there, my flat.

27 Q. Were you arrested in Pecani on May 24th?

28 A. Yes.

Page 8250

1 Q. Who came to arrest you - civilians, military, police?

2 A. I was in the flat with my mother-in-law and three policemen rang

3 the bell, three active duty policemen from the police station.

4 A relative of mine opened the door and they asked him: "Is

5 Fikret there?" He answered "Yes".

6 Q. When you came to the door did the policeman indicate that you

7 were under arrest and should come with them?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What nationality were those policemen?

10 A. They were Serbs.

11 Q. Were they armed?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How did they transport you to the police department?

14 A. In a military vehicle, a jeep.

15 Q. About what time of the day was this, morning, afternoon,

16 evening?

17 A. That was in the early afternoon, somewhere just after lunch

18 time.

19 Q. When you arrived at the SUP do you know whether or not people

20 there were aware of your arrival?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How did you come to know this?

23 A. Whilst getting off the vehicle I looked up towards the windows

24 and I noticed that in almost every office there were my former

25 colleagues watching my arrival, watching my arrival, and some of

26 them were even laughing at it.

27 Q. Where were you taken, into what part of the SUP?

28 A. On the first floor in the office of the previous Deputy

Page 8251

1 Commander of the police station, Simo Miskovic.

2 Q. Was someone left there to guard you?

3 A. Yes, a retired police officer, Inspector Ilija Bijelic.

4 Q. Was there a window in that office?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you able to see outside through that window?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. At some point after your arrival did you see Muslim prisoners

9 being brought to the SUP?

10 A. After a while, I do not know after how much time had past since

11 I was brought there, I heard beatings, screamings, shoutings,

12 shooting. After that the person who guarded me got up and went

13 towards the window to watch what was going on.

14 Q. Did you also take that opportunity to get up and see what was

15 going on?

16 A. Yes, I also got up, stood by him and was watching what was going

17 on.

18 Q. What did you see outside?

19 A. From the direction of the post office towards the SUP there was

20 a tank going. On that tank there were two soldiers with hands

21 raised, with three fingers raised, and they were shooting from

22 the automatic rifles. After that I saw first one, then a second

23 bus.

24 Q. Did you see prisoners get off the bus?

25 A. Yes, the buses stopped just in front of the main entrance of the

26 SUP, and two soldiers got off the bus. They got off the buses

27 and they posted themselves just on the left and right-hand side

28 of the bus doors. The people were running with their hands on

Page 8252

1 the back of their heads. They were running towards the SUP

2 building.

3 Q. How were these people dressed, those who were running from the

4 bus with their hands on the back of their heads?

5 A. In a different way. There were people who had bare feet. There

6 were people who did not have any top clothing or they had just

7 shirts, under shirts.

8 Q. Did you recognise the nationality of these people?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what was that?

11 A. They were all Muslim.

12 Q. As the buses arrived and the prisoners started to leave the bus,

13 did you hear any sounds of movement in the SUP?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What were you able to hear?

16 A. I heard people running through the corridors of the SUP.

17 Q. Running in which direction?

18 A. Towards the hallway, the entrance.

19 Q. So as the prisoners were coming towards the entrance of the SUP,

20 people from inside the SUP were going down in the direction of

21 the entrance?

22 A. Yes, they were running.

23 Q. Did you see any Serbian officials as the prisoners got off the

24 bus?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Who did you see?

27 A. I saw the SDS President, Simo Miskovic, who was standing in

28 front of the Municipal Assembly building with an automatic

Page 8253

1 rifle, a heckler, in his hands. Skondric Vaso was with him, he

2 was a police inspector from Sarajevo, he also had a heckler

3 rifle, and he was wearing a uniform, while Simo was dressed in

4 civilian clothes.

5 Q. As the prisoners from the bus went toward the entrance and as

6 the people from the SUP went down toward the entrance, did you

7 hear any sounds coming from the area of the entrance of the SUP?

8 A. One could hear people swear, curse, shouting, screaming,

9 screams.

10 Q. What kinds of curses did you hear?

11 A. "Alija, fuck you, fuck your Ustasha mother", and those kinds of

12 things.

13 Q. What kinds of screams did you hear? Were those the screams of

14 people in pain?

15 A. Yes, these were screams of people in pain.

16 Q. You mentioned Simo Miskovic and Vaso Skondric. From the time of

17 your arrival until the arrival of these prisoners, had you

18 become aware of other Serbian police officials or other

19 officials in the SUP?

20 A. All of them were, almost all of them were there.

21 Q. Who was there? Can you name some of them?

22 A. Simo Drljaca, Dusan Jankovic, Milos Jankovic, Ranko Mijic, Djuro

23 Prpos.

24 Q. As you were held in the room you indicated, could you smell

25 anything unusual in the SUP?

26 A. Whilst they were bringing me in, in the corridors there were

27 scattered untidily cardboard boxes. There were also tins, then

28 crates of beer and one could smell a stench of alcohol

Page 8254

1 everywhere.

2 Q. The cardboard boxes you mentioned, were those the kinds of boxes

3 which held cans of beer?

4 A. Not cans of beer, cans of food.

5 Q. Before the time the takeover took place did you receive

6 indications that Serbian police officers were aware that it was

7 about to occur?

8 A. I could feel it by the behaviour of certain policemen of Serb

9 nationality that something was going on, that the duties were

10 not carried out as they used to be previously.

11 Q. Did any Serb police officer ever come to you and indicate to you

12 that the arming of Serbs was taking place and that bad

13 developments were about to occur?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When did that happen?

16 A. I cannot remember the exact date, but it was shortly after I was

17 appointed Commander of the police station. Zdravko Tobica, a

18 policeman, came to me.

19 Q. What did he tell you about arming or bad developments?

20 A. He told me that things that were going on were not good, that

21 there was already a separation, a division between the

22 policemen, and that their SDS was arming people that were living

23 in Pecani where he lived and I lived, and that something should

24 be done about it.

25 Q. You mentioned Serbs being armed. Was it among the duties of the

26 traffic police to confiscate weapons deemed illegal?

27 A. Yes, whilst on duty all the illegal weapons were to be seized

28 during the control.

Page 8255

1 Q. During your time as a traffic police commander did you learn

2 that any of your subordinates were interfering with that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was that?

5 A. My deputy Djuro Prpos.

6 Q. Did you attempt to deal with that interference without a direct

7 confrontation with Djuro Prpos?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. First of all, what was Prpos doing? Was he forbidding police

10 officers, traffic police officers to confiscate the weapons or

11 was he returning them?

12 A. He was returning them without my knowledge and without asking

13 me.

14 Q. After you learned about that did you give orders that weapons

15 should not be returned without your direct orders?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you later learn that those weapons were simply no longer

18 being confiscated?

19 A. In smaller quantities as compared to the previous period.

20 Q. To which national group were the weapons that Prpos returned

21 returned?

22 A. They were all Serbs.

23 Q. Was Djuro Prpos in contact with Serbian military leaders?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was there ever a confrontation between the Serb military and the

26 traffic police?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Did that involve an attempt by the traffic police to do their

Page 8256

1 normal duty and search?

2 A. Yes, that was during the attempt by a traffic police patrol who

3 tried to enter the Prijedor barracks. They were asked to

4 accompany, escort some military vehicles. Then Radovan Rajlic,

5 Stojan Madzar and some others stopped them, and they searched

6 systematically the police vehicle, although they had no right to

7 do so. Also they searched all the policemen who were on the

8 patrol.

9 Q. Was this a matter that you normally would have responded to as

10 Commander of the traffic police and which you intended to deal

11 with as traffic police Commander?

12 A. Yes, I tried to telephone one of the superior officers in the

13 barracks. Then I did not succeed in this and I said that our

14 policemen will not escort anybody any more.

15 Q. Was that matter ultimately resolved by the military police?

16 A. Yes, afterwards my deputy, Djuro Prpos, received the Commander

17 of that unit. His name was Rajlic and he used to work at the

18 Post Office in Prijedor.

19 Q. Did Prpos and the Commander of that unit work out an arrangement

20 on behalf of the traffic police without the Commander of the

21 traffic police?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did the Serbian military continue to deal with Djuro Prpos and

24 circumvent the Commander of the police, in this case you, in

25 further dealings?

26 A. After that confrontation they decided not to contact the traffic

27 police, but they contacted the general police station and its

28 Commander Dusan Jankovic.

Page 8257

1 Q. In further dealings with the traffic police, however, did the

2 Serbian military exclude you but deal with Prpos instead?

3 A. Yes, and with Dusan Jankovic.

4 Q. After the takeover did you receive information that Serbian

5 police and Serbian leaders had been planning the takeover well

6 in advance of its occurrence?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was it you learned? How was that takeover being planned?

9 A. Three days after I returned from the camp I met in Zagreb with

10 my wife. She had arrived from Prijedor, or it is better to say

11 that she was forced to leave. Among other things, she told me

12 that Milinko Sujica, a policeman who moved into my flat, while

13 going away, while they were saying goodbye, said that whatever

14 had happened had been planned a long time ago.

15 Q. Did he say where that planning took place?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where was that?

18 A. In the Prijedor barracks.

19 Q. Did he say who participated in that planning?

20 A. All the employees of the Serbian nationalities from the Prijedor

21 SUP and that they had established a Serbian SUP.

22 Q. Did he indicate whether or not the Serbian employees of the SUP

23 had been instructed to keep this planning secret?

24 A. In fact, he said that to my wife and that is precisely how

25 things were. They were not allowed to say that to anybody, that

26 was forbidden, and it was also dangerous.

27 Q. Mr. Kadiric, I want to take you very briefly beyond the SUP just

28 to let the Court know where you ended up after you were taken

Page 8258

1 from there, but I want to ask you one more question before

2 I did. You mentioned Zoran Cvijic before. Was he put in the

3 administrative unit because he had particular administrative

4 competence?

5 A. No, he was ill and that was temporary up until the moment a

6 final decision would be taken as to his duty post. I actually

7 found him working in that particular job at the police station

8 when I came to my office.

9 Q. Were you taken from the SUP on the night of May 24th?

10 A. Yes, around 10 o'clock.

11 Q. Were you taken to the SUP in Dubica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you interrogated over a period of time there?

14 A. Yes, the whole night and the following day.

15 Q. Did the interrogators demand that you respond to certain

16 questions?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What kinds of things were they asking you?

19 A. The first thing they told me was that I was a Commander of the

20 Green Berets, some kind of Muslim army, and that I have to tell

21 them everything about that because they knew, allegedly,

22 everything about me and my activities in that particular field.

23 Q. Over time what kinds of questions did they demand you answer?

24 A. Where was the exercise, the training place, what kinds of

25 weapons we had and where those weapons came from; who were the

26 people working with me and who were my contacts in Sarajevo. He

27 mentioned Avdo Hebib who was the Deputy or Assistant Minister at

28 that time, how many times he came to see me and what

Page 8259

1 instructions he had given me.

2 Q. Did you provide the interrogators with the answers they appeared

3 to want?

4 A. No, no. I did not have anything to answer to what they said.

5 Q. When you failed to give them the answers they were looking for,

6 were you beaten and tortured?

7 A. Yes, till unconsciousness.

8 Q. What kinds of instruments did they use as they beat and tortured

9 you?

10 A. Rubber bats, wooden poles, pistol, knife, wires.

11 Q. On what parts of your body were you beaten?

12 A. From top to toe, to put it simply.

13 Q. Were the soles of your feet beaten?

14 A. Yes, I had to put my feet on a chair, on the back of the chair

15 they were so they could beat the soles of my feet, the palms of

16 my hands, my back, on my hips, until I lost consciousness.

17 Q. During the course of the interrogation and the torture, were

18 there any indications that your interrogators were in contact

19 with Prijedor?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was that based on the kinds of questions they were asking you

22 and the information they came up with?

23 A. After the first question which I had spoken of before, from that

24 room where they had brought me Vlado Karan came out, and after

25 several minutes he came back smiling, saying: "Oh, but you

26 didn't say anything about your plans about establishing a camp

27 for the Serbian population." He ordered me to say everything

28 about it because he had information about it, even some lists

Page 8260

1 that I had made.

2 Q. Was there such a plan to establish a camp for the Serbian

3 population?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Mr. Kadiric, without going into all of the things that happened

6 to you after you were taken to Dubica, did you eventually end up

7 in Manjaca camp?

8 A. First in the hospital in Bosanska Gradiska, then in prison in

9 Stara Gradiska and then in the camp in Manjaca.

10 Q. Did your family, that is your father and mother and brothers and

11 sisters, remain in Rizvanovici after your arrest?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you eventually learn what had happened to them?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was that, sir?

16 A. My father was killed.

17 Q. When was that?

18 A. On 20th July 1992.

19 Q. Was that during the cleansing of the Hambarine area?

20 A. Yes, of that complete area that is called Brdo, and the villages

21 of Biscani, Rizvanovici, Rakovici.

22 Q. Did you learn what happened to other members of your family?

23 A. At that time my younger brother was taken out of the house and

24 killed as well as his son aged 17.

25 Q. How many members of your family were killed in the Hambarine

26 area during the cleansing?

27 A. From my family, smaller family 12 people, and 71 persons by the

28 surname of Kadiric.

Page 8261

1 MR. TIEGER: That is all I have, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It appears that the Prosecution is proceeding

3 quickly through their rebuttal. So, Mr. Kay, if the Defence has

4 any rejoinder we would like you to be prepared to begin perhaps

5 on Friday.

6 MR. KAY: Yes.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then the other matter relates to the

8 Prosecution's motion for protective measures for Witness AA. Is

9 there any significance to that? I do not want to discuss it in

10 open session, but just find that out.

11 MR. NIEMANN: I understand there is no objection, your Honour.

12 MR. KAY: No opposition, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. That will be granted. We will

14 adjourn until tomorrow at 10.00 a.m.

15 (5.35 p.m.)

16 (The Court adjourned until the following day).