Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8908

     1                                          Monday, 30th June 1997

     2      (2.30 pm)

     3      THE CLERK OF THE COURT:   Case number IT-94-1-T, the

     4          Prosecutor v Dusko Tadic.

     5      JUDGE McDONALD:   Thank you.  May I have appearances for

     6          counsel, please?

     7      MR. NIEMANN:   If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann and

     8          I appear for the Prosecution.  Mr. Keegan will shortly

     9          join us, and I am assisted at the bar table by Miss

    10          Sutherland, your Honour.

    11      JUDGE McDONALD:  Thank you.  May I have appearances for the

    12          defence, please?

    13      MR. VUJIN:  Milan Vujin, lead defence counsel.  Today I am

    14          assisted by Mr. Nikola Kostic, and Mr. John Livingston as

    15          a law adviser, and Ms. Jelena Lopicic is also a law

    16          adviser.

    17      JUDGE McDONALD:   Thank you, Mr. Vujin.  Are you ready to

    18          proceed, Mr. Vujin?  Mr. Vujin, are you ready to proceed?

    19      MR. VUJIN:   Your Honour, the Defence believed that we would

    20          follow the order as we have been doing in the

    21          presentation of evidence, which means that the

    22          Prosecutor will present his evidence, or rather his

    23          position, and that after that the Defence would speak.

    24      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Niemann, do you have any objection to

    25          proceeding in that way?

Page 8909

     1      MR. NIEMANN:   Your Honours, in terms of presenting the

     2          material that we wish to present, we have presented

     3          certain material which has been served upon the Defence

     4          in relation to written submissions, in the form of

     5          written submissions and in addition to that certain

     6          supporting material, including two declarations.  That

     7          is our position.  We wish to make oral submissions.  We

     8          ask the court for an opportunity to do that, but we

     9          don't seek to do that until after we have heard the

    10          evidence of the defence.

    11      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Vujin, there is outstanding a request

    12          for postponement of sentence that you filed on

    13          June 26th, and actually I wanted you to speak to that.

    14          You were asking that the sentencing be postponed.  You

    15          wished to call in person an expert witness.  We have

    16          received his report, and we have read his report, but

    17          you may proceed with respect to that motion, unless you

    18          wish to withdraw it at this time.

    19      MR. VUJIN:   Your Honours, at this moment we would not like

    20          to withdraw the proposal to invite as an expert witness

    21          Professor Nedopil.  However, as you have been able to

    22          see, we have had problems in communications with

    23          Professor Nedopil who was at a conference in Canada.  I

    24          spoke to him on the phone today and he is ready to come

    25          to The Hague but not before Friday, because he is

Page 8910

     1          prevented by other obligations.  In the meantime I wish

     2          to inform the court of another difficulty that has

     3          arisen.  My office informed me half an hour ago that it

     4          had also contacted Professor Nedopil and that

     5          Professor Nedopil is asking payment not only of

     6          travelling expenses and accommodation but also 1,000

     7          German marks per hour for every hour of his absence from

     8          Munich.

     9      JUDGE McDONALD:   Does that include travel time?  I suppose

    10          it does.

    11      MR. VUJIN:   Yes, travel too from 6.00 am in the morning

    12          until he completes his sojourn in The Hague.  The

    13          presentation of a psychiatrist and especially

    14          Professor Nedopil, we chose him because he had occasion

    15          to examine the personality of the accused Tadic for some

    16          time during his stay in Munich, but if you, as the Trial

    17          Chamber, are unable to accommodate this request in the

    18          name of a fair trial, we would be prepared to accept the

    19          expert testimony of an expert who is here in The Hague

    20          and who carried out some psychological examinations of

    21          the accused, Tadic, here in The Hague.  I do not have

    22          his name at this moment, but I have asked Mr. Stuart to

    23          provide me with the names, and if there is such a

    24          possibility, the Defence would be ready to accept it.

    25      JUDGE McDONALD:   How much will he or she charge per hour in

Page 8911

     1          guilders, I suppose?

     2      MR. VUJIN:   I am afraid I don't know that because this is

     3          the first time that I am encountering Dutch experts.

     4      JUDGE McDONALD:   The situation with respect to Dr. Nedopil,

     5          as I understand it, he examined Mr. Tadic two and a half,

     6          three years ago, was it, when he was in custody in

     7          Germany.  You have provided the Trial Chamber with a

     8          copy of the report and, as I indicated, we have read

     9          that report.  I have discussed this matter with my

    10          colleagues, and we feel that the report is sufficient.

    11          There's no need for him to attend in person and read his

    12          report for us.  So I don't really consider that it's

    13          necessary.  When you filed your request for an

    14          extension, the Trial Chamber had previously entered an

    15          order stating that if you were able to obtain the

    16          presence of Dr. Nedopil by July 4th, then we would hear

    17          from him, because at that time you did not know when he

    18          was returning, and so you really could not give us a

    19          date, but now you are saying that he could be here on

    20          July 4th?

    21      MR. VUJIN:   Yes, that is correct, on 4th.

    22      JUDGE McDONALD:   In the Order that the Trial Chamber

    23          entered on July 12th, the Trial Chamber indicated that

    24          we preferred written statements.  This is not a trial.

    25          This is a sentencing hearing and we are of course

Page 8912

     1          interested in receiving information that will help us in

     2          the process, but it need not be presented orally.  So

     3          with the benefit of his report I don't believe there is

     4          any reason to have him here.

     5                With respect to the other psychiatrist who is

     6          here, would he be ready to testify this week?  He, I

     7          gather, would have to examine Mr. Tadic at some point

     8          this week.

     9      MR. VUJIN:   Your Honours, I really do not know, because I

    10          have not had any chance to communicate with the local

    11          expert, but from the information from Mr. Tadic, the

    12          psychologist who did the tests does not require

    13          additional time for observation of Mr. Tadic.  She has

    14          her findings ready and she is able to present those

    15          findings.  We just appeal to the court to enable us to

    16          get in touch with her so that we can agree on when she

    17          could present her findings.

    18      JUDGE McDONALD:   In the Order of June 12th the Trial

    19          Chamber had indicated that we wished to receive any

    20          reports you intended on offering three days, I think is

    21          what was said in the Order, prior to the commencement of

    22          the hearing but when could you have that report to us?

    23          When could we receive it?

    24      MR. VUJIN:   I'm afraid we do not have that report in

    25          writing, because Mr. Tadic never received that report in

Page 8913

     1          writing, the view of the expert who tested him.  If we

     2          receive the name of that lady, because Mr. Dusko Tadic

     3          does not know her name either, we could then provide you

     4          with an answer to your question, and I hope that this

     5          could be on the same day as soon as we get in touch with

     6          her.

     7      JUDGE McDONALD:   I suppose you need then to speak with the

     8          Registry to obtain the name of the psychologist.  You

     9          may do that.  We will take a recess this afternoon, so

    10          you may do that at the recess and perhaps even you will

    11          be able to determine over the evening, when we adjourn

    12          tonight, whether the psychologist has a report, when the

    13          report would be available to be provided to the Trial

    14          Chamber.  Then we will make a determination tomorrow as

    15          to whether we will hear this psychologist.  You have

    16          listed a Professor Dr. Aleksic.

    17      MR. VUJIN:   Aleksic Zivojin is here present and he is

    18          ready to present his views on the circumstances that we

    19          explained in our motion.

    20      JUDGE McDONALD:   We have not received a report from

    21          Professor Aleksic.

    22      MR. VUJIC:   No, you have not received a report from

    23          Professor Aleksic.  If you feel that is necessary in

    24          writing, you can have it tomorrow, but we wanted to take

    25          advantage of Professor Aleksic for him to explain orally

Page 8914

     1          the situation with regard to Yugoslav criminal law

     2          provisions regarding the circumstances that are relevant

     3          for this case:  Professor Aleksic is a world renowned

     4          figure and expert for criminal law and criminology.  He

     5          has some 26 books to his credit and I am sure that he

     6          would be very useful to the Trial Chamber and all of us

     7          here to hear him.

     8      JUDGE McDONALD:   The June 12th order directed the parties

     9          to provide a written report.  That's why I was asking

    10          whether you had one available.  When did you intend on

    11          calling him in the Order of witnesses you have listed.

    12      MR. VUJIN:   Professor Aleksic would come at the end.

    13      JUDGE McDONALD:   Is he here in The Hague?

    14      MR. VUJIN:   Yes, he is in The Hague.

    15      JUDGE McDONALD:   Confer with him and determine whether he

    16          has a report and advise the Trial Chamber tomorrow

    17          afternoon when we continue, and then we will make a

    18          determination as to whether we will hear him if he does

    19          not have a report in light of our June 12th order

    20          directing a written report.  Are there any other matters

    21          preliminarily, Mr. Vujin?

    22      MR. VUJIN:   I should just like to inform you, your Honours,

    23          that we have proposed the testimony of two witnesses,

    24          Radomir Slobodan and Javic Milan, but coming from Banja

    25          Luka to Belgrade they had a traffic accident and were

Page 8915

     1          therefore unable to come, so that in the course of these

     2          proceedings we hope to be able to submit the written

     3          statement by Mr. Javic.

     4      JUDGE McDONALD:   You may be seated.  Thank you.  On May 7th

     5          the Trial Chamber rendered an Opinion and Judgment

     6          finding Dusko Tadic guilty of certain crimes charged in

     7          the indictment.  This is a pre-sentencing hearing

     8          pursuant to Rule 100 of the Rules of Procedure and

     9          Evidence of the Tribunal, and pursuant to that rule the

    10          Prosecutor and the Defence may submit any relevant

    11          information that may assist the Trial Chamber in

    12          determining an appropriate sentence.

    13                As I have indicated on that same day, the May 7th,

    14          the Trial Chamber directed the parties to provide the

    15          Trial Chamber with an indication of the submissions that

    16          each wished to make today, and the Defence has filed a

    17          sentencing notice listing the persons it intends to call

    18          and, Mr. Vujin, you have indicated that you would require

    19          45 minutes to one hour for each person.  The Prosecutor

    20          has filed a brief and material regarding the sentencing

    21          policies in the former Yugoslavia as well as two

    22          declarations from investigators and an affidavit from

    23          Hakija Elezovic.  The Prosecution has also filed a

    24          request for leave to make an oral submission regarding

    25          the sentencing, and that has been granted.

Page 8916

     1                The Defence also filed a letter requesting the

     2          protection of certain witnesses, stating that they

     3          feared that they would be arrested while they were in

     4          The Hague.  That request was opposed by the

     5          Prosecution.  The Trial Chamber, however, granted that

     6          request, treating it as a motion, even though the

     7          precise requirements for those protective measures had

     8          not been established.  Finally, as I have indicated in

     9          the Order of June 12th, the Trial Chamber directed the

    10          parties to coordinate immediately with the Victims and

    11          Witnesses Unit if assistance is needed for the transport

    12          of witnesses and decided that the parties may offer

    13          written statements or reports, as well as oral

    14          statements during the pre-sentence hearing, and directed

    15          the parties to submit written statements in lieu of oral

    16          statements whenever possible.

    17                The Trial Chamber also decided that any written

    18          statements or reports offered by the parties will be

    19          received and considered by the Trial Chamber in a manner

    20          equivalent to oral statements.  The Prosecution has

    21          submitted two declarations by investigators and the

    22          affidavit that I referred to, and in those declarations

    23          there is information regarding the impact of Dusko

    24          Tadic's crimes.  These impact statements shall be

    25          considered by the Trial Chamber to the extent that it

Page 8917

     1          will assist the Trial Chamber in determining the

     2          specific harm caused to the victims or to their families

     3          by the crimes of Dusko Tadic.  Some of the claims of the

     4          victims as contained in those declarations relate to

     5          monetary and other losses, which cannot be verified with

     6          any certainty.  The Trial Chamber, however, is not

     7          concerned with the monetary value of the loss, but only

     8          with the fact of loss, which, of course, varies with the

     9          victim's economic status.

    10                Now, during this hearing, the pre-sentencing

    11          hearing, the Trial Chamber will be concerned only with

    12          receiving submissions as to the character of the accused

    13          and other matters that may assist it in determining the

    14          appropriate sentence.  We have had a lengthy trial and

    15          we have afforded the parties an ample opportunity to

    16          offer evidence as to the guilt or innocence of

    17          Mr. Tadic.  Thus, we will not hear statements regarding

    18          culpability and we ask the parties to restrict their

    19          submission to matters of character and other submissions

    20          that bear on the sentencing process.

    21                Mr. Vujin,  you have indicated that you wish the

    22          Prosecution to proceed first.  The Prosecution has

    23          indicated that it has no objection to proceeding that

    24          way and has indicated that it would offer the

    25          declarations I gather of the investigators as well as

Page 8918

     1          the affidavit.  Would you want to offer those into

     2          evidence, Mr. Niemann?

     3      MR. NIEMANN:   Yes, your Honour.  I just want to clarify that

     4          we didn't wish to proceed with our oral submission now.

     5      JUDGE McDONALD:   I understand that.

     6      MR. NIEMANN:   Certainly yes, your Honour, we wish to tender

     7          the declarations and the affidavit into evidence.

     8      JUDGE McDONALD:   Have those been provided to counsel for

     9          the Defence?

    10      MR. NIEMANN:   Yes, your Honour.

    11      JUDGE McDONALD:   Very good.  They will be admitted if you

    12          do not have an extra copy at this time -- they have been

    13          filed.

    14      MR. NIEMANN:   Yes, your Honour.

    15      JUDGE McDONALD:   They will be admitted and given an

    16          appropriate exhibit number.  Is there anything else you

    17          have at this time by way of written statements?

    18      MR. NIEMANN:   No, your Honour.

    19      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Vujin, could you please at this time

    20          give me a list of the -- either a list or at least the

    21          names of the persons who you will be calling to give

    22          oral statements, and if there are any written statements

    23          that you wish to offer at this time also give me the

    24          author of those.

    25      MR. VUJIN:   Yes, your Honours.  We will be inviting

Page 8919

     1          Mr. Ljubomir Tadic; (redacted); Mr. Nikola Petrovic;

     2          Miss Valentina Tadic; Ms. Mira Tadic; and, as we have

     3          already said, Professor Zivojin Aleksic, as an expert

     4          witness.

     5                As far as written statements are concerned, at

     6          this point in time, if the Trial Chamber is inclined to

     7          accept it, I can submit two statements, one by witness

     8          Jovan Vukoje, and another from Mile Cavic, regarding

     9          the character of the accused, Dusko Tadic.  Cavic,

    10          because of the traffic accident, as I said, was unable

    11          to come in person, and Mr. Vukoje because of other

    12          obligations.  I apologise for omitting to mention that

    13          we also have invited Ms. Ljubica Metselaar to testify

    14          orally.  She has been proposed before.  She is listed

    15          under number 12 of our submission.

    16      JUDGE McDONALD:   How many copies of the written statements

    17          do you have?

    18      MR. VUJIN:   We have two copies.

    19      JUDGE McDONALD:   Have you provided counsel for the

    20          Prosecution with a copy?  Mr. Niemann?

    21      MR. NIEMANN:   No.

    22      MR. VUJIN:   We have a copy for the Prosecution.

    23      JUDGE McDONALD:   Very good.   These will be marked how,

    24          Mr. Bos?  The first one, Mr. javic, will that be Defence

    25          Exhibit 1?  The second statement, is that from -- is

Page 8920

     1          that Mr. or Ms. Jovan?

     2      MR. VUJIN:   Mr. Jovan Vukoje.

     3      JUDGE McDONALD:   Is this a psychiatrist or psychologist?

     4      THE INTERPRETER:   Microphone, please.  The microphone is

     5          not switched on.  Excuse me.

     6                MR. VUJIN:   Mr. Vukoje is director of the centre

     7          for social work in Prijedor.  He is a graduate of

     8          history, geography and defectology.

     9      JUDGE McDONALD:   They will then be admitted as Defence

    10          Exhibit 1 for Mr. javic and 2 for Mr. Jovan, and a copy

    11          has been provided to the prosecution.

    12                As far as scheduling is concerned, as I am sure

    13          everyone understands, at this point we have only one

    14          courtroom and we have a number of matters that are being

    15          handled in this one courtroom.  So we have reserved only

    16          the afternoons for today through Thursday from 2.30

    17          until 5.30.  If necessary, if we have not completed the

    18          submissions at that time on Thursday, we are available

    19          on Friday, July 4th, beginning at 10.00 am.  At some

    20          point there will also be a need to use this courtroom

    21          for an initial appearance, and I will advise the parties

    22          whether that will be held in the afternoon and cut into

    23          our time.  Hopefully it will be in the morning and so we

    24          will be able to use completely the 2.30-5.30 through

    25          Thursday and then perhaps all of Friday.  Okay.  If

Page 8921

     1          there's nothing else, Mr. Vujin, you may proceed and

     2          offer your first witness.

     3      MR. VUJIN:   We would like to call Mr. Ljubomir Tadic.

     4      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Livingston, welcome.  This is your

     5          first appearance here.

     6      MR. LIVINGSTON:   Thank you very much, your Honour.

     7      JUDGE McDONALD:   Thank you.  Thank you for being here.

     8      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Ljubomir Tadic is coming.  You have

     9          additional witnesses, Mr. Vujin, , but they are not in

    10          the building.  They need to be brought here.  So I have

    11          asked Mr. Bos to tell the Victims and Witnesses Unit to

    12          bring them to the building so that when Mr. Tadic

    13          completes his statement we can then proceed with them.

    14      MR. VUJIN:   Your Honour, when we spoke to the Witness and

    15          Victims Unit we thought that the Prosecutor would start

    16          and present his positions, as is customary, so we

    17          thought we would be inviting only one witness, because

    18          the Prosecutor told us that he would need two hours, so

    19          that there would not be time for more of our witnesses.

    20          That is why we are ready today only for the testimony of

    21          Mr. Ljubomir Tadic.

    22      JUDGE McDONALD:   We will arrange to bring over whatever or

    23          whoever else is needed this afternoon.  The Prosecution

    24          filed its submission and indicated in the submission

    25          that it would be in writing only and then filed a

Page 8922

     1          request for leave to make a statement as to the

     2          appropriate sentence, and, as I have indicated, I will

     3          hear from counsel, after though, we hear from the

     4          witnesses, either orally or from their written

     5          statements.  So we will hear Mr. Tadic and another

     6          witness or another two witnesses should be brought over

     7          so we can proceed.  When we complete all of the

     8          witnesses, we will hear from counsel, first from the

     9          Prosecution and then from the Defence.

    10      MR. VUJIN:   Very well, your Honour.  In that case we would

    11          like to call (redacted) and Nikola Petrovic as the

    12          next witnesses.

    13      JUDGE McDONALD:   Together?

    14      MR. VUJIN:   I'm sorry.  I thought you suggested we hear

    15          Mr. Tadic and two more witnesses.

    16      JUDGE McDONALD:   Ljubomir Tadic, and then who will be the

    17          next witness?

    18      MR. VUJIN: (redacted).

    19      JUDGE McDONALD:   And the next witness after that?

    20      MR. VUJIN:   It will be Petrovic.

    21      JUDGE McDONALD:   Make sure we have enough witnesses to

    22          carry on until 5.30.  Then please bring in Mr. Ljubomir

    23          Tadic.

    24                          (Witness enters court)

    25      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Tadic, would you take the oath that's


Page 8923

     1          in front of you, please?

     2                         Mr. Ljubomir Tadic (sworn)

     3                           Examined by Mr. Vujin

     4      JUDGE McDONALD:   Thank you, Mr. Tadic. Mr. Vujin, you may

     5          proceed.

     6      MR. VUJIN:   Thank you, your Honours.  Mr. Tadic, you are

     7          appearing before this Tribunal for the second time; is

     8          that correct?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  You have already testified in this case?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  We would now like to discuss some of the circumstances

    13          which were not discussed when you first appeared before

    14          this Tribunal, and those are circumstances and facts

    15          linked to your family conditions and the personality and

    16          character of your brother, Dusko Tadic.  Are you ready

    17          to answer questions on these matters?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  Before the conflict and the events which led to the war

    20          and armed conflict, where was your family living?  When

    21          I say family, I am thinking of your father and mother

    22          and those living with him.

    23      A.  My family was living in Kozarac, my late father, my

    24          mother, Dusko my brother, his wife and two children.

    25      Q.  How many children do your parents have?

Page 8924

     1      A.  My parents have four sons, four sons.

     2      Q.  You said that your father was deceased?

     3      A.  Yes, he passed away in 1989.

     4      Q.  And your mother is alive.  How is she?

     5      A.  She's in very poor health.

     6      Q.  The house in which your father and mother lived and your

     7          brother's family, is that house a family house?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  Did you all live there in your youth in that house?

    10      A.  Yes.

    11      Q.  Can you tell me what were the relationships within the

    12          family, how you were brought up?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  Will you please describe the family relationships and

    15          your relations with your brothers when you were young?

    16      A.  First of all, I have to say that our father was an

    17          officer.  He was a strict man, but extremely

    18          honourable.  He brought us up in the socialist communist

    19          spirit, which at that time, as you know, was widespread

    20          in Yugoslavia, that existed at the time.  He never

    21          taught us any kind of nationalism.  On the contrary, he

    22          would not allow us even to mention religion, because he

    23          was a communist by conviction, and communists are

    24          atheists and that is the spirit in which we were brought

    25          up, in the socialist spirit.  We were members of the

Page 8925

     1          party while it existed.  It all collapsed, of course.

     2      Q.  Mr. Tadic, let us go back for a moment to your relations

     3          with your brothers.  I'm interested in your neighbours.

     4      A.  Our neighbours were mostly Muslims.  They were very good

     5          neighbours.  We were good friends.  We grew up together

     6          with them.  I can only give you one example that I

     7          remember very well, though I was small.  Our father was

     8          on duty.  He was away and our mother was sick, and our

     9          closest neighbours, Salik Hanjic, that is our

    10          next-door-neighbour to the left, and his wife Mohiba

    11          took care of us because our mother was sick.  Their

    12          house was small, as was ours in those days.  We were

    13          there for seven or eight days.  We slept there because

    14          our mother was in the hospital, but there weren't enough

    15          beds, so all of us lay down one next to the other, their

    16          son and us.  There was never any distinction made

    17          between us.

    18      Q.  Do you know a name called (redacted)

    19          (redacted)

    20      A.  Yes.  He's a year older than me.  He lives four or five

    21          houses away.

    22      Q.  Is he older than Dusko Tadic?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  Was he friends with Dusko Tadic?

    25      A.  No, it's not the same generation.  He's older than me

Page 8926

     1          but we all know him, and while Dusko was building his

     2          cafe, he was one of the group of young men and

     3          neighbours who were helping in building the cafe.

     4      Q.  Is there any reason why Dusko was not close with him?

     5      A.  No.  I'm a bit embarrassed to say it, but this boy was

     6          ill.  Everyone called him "niho kuja".  "Kuja" means a

     7          bitch, I'm afraid.  It was generally known that he had

     8          intercourse with animals.

     9      Q.  That's enough.  That's enough.  I would like to hear

    10          about your relations with the other neighbours.  Did

    11          families help each other where necessary and so on?

    12      A.  Yes.  I must tell you that in those days when we were

    13          boys we had a small house.  The house that stands there

    14          now was built much later.  Our father started to build

    15          it and all our neighbours helped us.  In this small

    16          place and even when one doesn't have much money, one can

    17          build a house like this, because everyone will help.

    18      Q.  Talking about that house, were there any disputes before

    19          your father's death linked to property rights amongst

    20          your brothers?

    21      A.  No.

    22      Q.  Were there any disputes after your father's death?

    23      A.  Well, some slight differences, but it is well-known that

    24          after death the proceedings take some time, but in our

    25          case it didn't take very long.  Our older brother may

Page 8927

     1          have been under somebody's influence, probably under the

     2          influence of his wife, because she was in a court

     3          proceedings in Croatia with her brother over some

     4          property, but we overcame that.

     5      Q.  Was that the former wife?

     6      A.  Yes, Sofija.

     7      Q.  Could you tell me whether as a boy or later Dusko had a

     8          hobby?

     9      A.  As far as I know, and I know quite well, Dusko as a

    10          little boy -- you know, all of us were talented

    11          painters.  I'm also pretty talented for painting but

    12          Dusko had the greatest talent of all.  Also Stojan, our

    13          oldest brother also used to paint, but Dusko was the

    14          youngest.  I remember as a little boy he would often

    15          come in all muddy, you know, and he would make little

    16          figures, little sculptures of sorts.  I remember when he

    17          was a biggish boy, when he was in 7th grade, I think,

    18          then his competence in painting and sculpture was fully

    19          expressed, and I remember that he made a bust of

    20          President Tito, and we kept it in the house for quite

    21          some time.  It was made of clay.  I mean, that's the

    22          only material they could use at that time.

    23      Q.  Can we show this photocopy so that all could see it?

    24          Could you please show it on the monitor?

    25      JUDGE McDONALD:   We will mark that as Exhibit 3.

Page 8928

     1      MR. VUJIN:   Do you recognise the person in this picture?

     2      A.  Of course I do.  This is our late father.  I am not

     3          surprised at all he did such a good job.  If he could do

     4          an identical image of Tito, why couldn't he do our

     5          father.

     6      Q.  This portrait that Dusko did in jail, is it quite

     7          realistic?

     8      A.  It is incredible.  It is identical really.  I have his

     9          picture.  He sent me a copy.

    10      Q.  While you were younger, what was the character of Dusko

    11          Tadic?  Did he like to fight?  Did he like to quarrel?

    12          Could you say something about that?

    13      A.  Let me tell you that Dusko was the youngest of our

    14          brothers. He was the pet in our family.  You know what

    15          it's like when somebody is the youngest and he was

    16          everybody's pet.  He was a quiet boy.  He played with

    17          everybody.  When I was a child I was fond of soccer

    18          football and I played football, but he didn't like that

    19          very much.  He liked to paint, as I said, and this

    20          talent of his was expressed then and even after that he

    21          went to that kind of school.

    22      Q.  You said in addition to painting you also played

    23          football.  Did Dusko Tadic have another hobby like

    24          bicycles, motorbikes?

    25      A.  No, football, he played a very little football.  He

Page 8929

     1          played with us but he was not a very good player. I

     2          personally never saw him ride on a bicycle because I

     3          think he doesn't even know how to ride a bicycle.

     4      Q.  What about a motorbike?

     5      A.  I don't think he can drive a motorbike either.  I think

     6          in 1985 or something like that he received his driver's

     7          licence, passed his driver's test for driving a car but

     8          not a motorbike.  I'm sure he doesn't know how to drive

     9          one.

    10      Q.  It is well-known that in your family you were all in

    11          karate?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  When did Dusko start with karate?

    14      A.  Dusko started with karate just before he went to school

    15          to Belgrade.

    16      Q.  That's where he started doing that?

    17      A.  A bit.

    18      Q.  Did he continue after Belgrade?

    19      A.  Yes, for some time.  He didn't have much time for

    20          sports.  Although he registered at a club in Kozarac and

    21          he led it for some time, but this was a smallish club,

    22          mostly children, girls.

    23      Q.  Let us talk about the club a bit.  I'm interested in the

    24          organisation of the club, who participated.  Was it

    25          younger categories of people, older, the ethnic

Page 8930

     1          composition?  How much do you know about this?

     2      A.  As you know, the club is a legal person, that is to say

     3          that it has to be registered and it has to have

     4          leadership, a management board.  So most of the -- all

     5          the people there were local people, and you know that

     6          over 90 per cent of the population of Kozarac were

     7          Muslims.  So it was only natural that most of them would

     8          be in the leadership of the club, because it was the

     9          children of people from Kozarac who were training there.

    10      Q.  The children who were training there, were they Serbs,

    11          Muslims and Croats?

    12      A.  I remember that I would come and hold a seminar there

    13          and help Dule a bit in the club and most of the children

    14          there, boys and girls -- there were less adults.  Most

    15          of the members were children, boys and girls.  As you

    16          know, in karate boys focus on techniques and so-called

    17          kati techniques.  Dusko taught them that and children do

    18          not really fight.  They compete in kati.  So this was

    19          accentuated.

    20      Q.  Did Dusko understand his activity in karate as an

    21          activity that would develop the spirit or rather

    22          fighting skills?

    23      A.  The kind of spirit that we had, because we trained with

    24          these people from Belgrade, this is Yazarau karate,

    25          Badaru.  That means the path of friendship.  Of over 100

Page 8931

     1          styles that exist in the world, we adopted this style,

     2          and this is less dominant in Yugoslavia than Shotic and

     3          other styles that are more aggressive, and the symbol of

     4          this style is a pigeon, that is to say friendship and

     5          peace, and we liked that style, because that is how we

     6          fostered friendship, fraternity, unity, camaraderie.

     7      Q.  Thank you, Mr. Tadic.  I'm interested because you

     8          mentioned a few minutes ago when you were talking about

     9          your father and how he brought you up, and he was a

    10          partisan and he raised you in that spirit in the former

    11          Yugoslavia, I'm interested in the attitude of your

    12          family.  When I say your family, I mean your family,

    13          you, Dusko Tadic, particularly Dusko Tadic, in relation

    14          to the Chetnik movement, towards the Chetnik movement.

    15      A.  Let me tell you.  I already said my father was a

    16          partisan.  He was one of the people who organised the

    17          uprising in Kozarac.  It is quite illogical that we

    18          could think of Chetniks, and we know that it was only by

    19          chance that our father survived the slaughter in Josici,

    20          because this is a Chetnik region.  Our father was in the

    21          First Proletarian Brigade.  He was heavily wounded.  He

    22          was transferred to Josin near Celinsi.  This is a

    23          Chetnik area.  It wasn't that Chetniks were all over

    24          there.  There were partisans there in part too.  They

    25          had secured that hospital.  When Dr. Mladen Stojanovic

Page 8932

     1          was killed, the well-known partisan commander, one

     2          night, over 50 partisans were killed that night,

     3          patients from that hospital.  Our father was also a

     4          patient in that hospital, and he just happened to

     5          survive by chance, because he was lying behind the door

     6          and the knife with which they tried to kill him went

     7          through his cheek and he had a scar on his face and over

     8          here too.  So he pretended to be dead.

     9      Q.  Can we say that generally in your family and in the case

    10          of Dusko Tadic there was a revulsion towards Chetniks?

    11      A.  Oh, yes, of course.  Perhaps people could even have

    12          problems because of that, but I am never going to wear a

    13          Chetnik symbol, and not a single person from my family

    14          would ever do that ever.

    15      Q.  I am asking you this because during the trial we had the

    16          opportunity of seeing that in one period, according to

    17          the testimonies of witnesses, your brother wore a

    18          beard.  Did he wear it because of his affiliation to the

    19          Chetnik movement or was there another reason?

    20      A.  Well, I also wore a beard when I was young for some time

    21          and then I shaved it.  Dusko didn't wear a beard.  He

    22          just wore a beard at one point in time.  He was ill.

    23          Something was wrong, I think, on his right-hand side.

    24          He had some kind of tissue that started growing out

    25          there.  This was very ugly to see.  I told our mother:

Page 8933

     1          "Talk him into operating on that. I'll try to find a

     2          surgeon in Banja Luka so that he would handle that".

     3          She said he was afraid.

     4      Q.  Connected to this beard also we had heard that there was

     5          an exchange of personalities?

     6      A.  Yes, I remember Mr. Wladimiroff was the first lawyer, and

     7          I was convinced that Dusko did not take part in any of

     8          this and I came to the conclusion and I will always say

     9          that, that he was replaced --

    10      JUDGE McDONALD:   Excuse me, Mr. Tadic.  Yes.

    11      MR. NIEMANN:   Your Honours, we object to this line of

    12          questioning.  It is attempting to traverse issues that

    13          were raised and dealt with at length in the trial.  If

    14          it is any assistance to my friend, the Prosecution makes

    15          no issue about Mr. Tadic's character and the fact that he

    16          had a beard.

    17      JUDGE McDONALD:   Well, Mr. Vujin,  tell me where you are

    18          going with this line of testimony.  I was concerned that

    19          there was statements that were going to be offered

    20          regarding Mr. Wladimiroff's involvement as prior counsel,

    21          and I thought that perhaps that was not necessary.  That

    22          was really my concern, but tell me where you are going

    23          with this?

    24      MR. VUJIN:   The only direction that the Defence wishes to

    25          move into is to depict the possibility of Dusko Tadic

Page 8934

     1          before this court, because when you decide on the

     2          punishment, you have to know everything about his

     3          personality from his youth until these events and

     4          certainly the best information of this sort can be

     5          provided by his family and the people who knew him

     6          best.  So we read all the statements carefully and we

     7          discussed this with our colleague, Mr. Wladimiroff, and

     8          there was no questioning of that sort, that is to show

     9          the personality of Dusko Tadic.  So all of this is aimed

    10          at showing the personality of Dusko Tadic, his

    11          character, because we believe that this is very

    12          important for your decision, because we expect that

    13          decision to be passed by taking into consideration all

    14          the circumstances which are taken into account in all

    15          well-known legal systems.

    16                The level of culpability, criminal liability,

    17          according to our system is also important, and that

    18          level cannot be determined without fully looking into

    19          the personality and character of the person concerned,

    20          everything that can portray his character.  So I don't

    21          think that the objection of the Prosecutor is

    22          well-founded.

    23      JUDGE McDONALD:   What does the beard have to do with that?

    24          I think you have covered that, that he typically didn't

    25          wear a beard but wore one because of a growth on his

Page 8935

     1          neck.  I think that is even in the report of the

     2          psychiatrist in Germany.  I think you can move on to

     3          another area. I heard Mr. Tadic make the reference to --

     4      MR. VUJIN:   Absolutely.  I will move on.

     5      JUDGE McDONALD:   I heard Mr. Tadic make the reference to

     6          (redacted) as well as Sofjia

     7          Tadic.  I hope you would confine the statement you

     8          elicit from Mr. Tadic to the character of the accused or

     9          the convicted person in this instance.  Thank you.

    10      MR. VUJIN:   Thank you, your Honour.  We shall proceed and

    11          you can reject our questions, of course, and we will

    12          accept that.

    13                Do you know about the activities of your brother,

    14          Dusko Tadic, in the humanitarian field?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  Can you explain these activities and what he did?

    17      A.  During the previous system as a boy he was a member of

    18          the youth organisation like all of us.  He collected aid

    19          according to instructions received from adults, from the

    20          party organisation, and afterwards, as far as I know,

    21          during the conflicts.  After the conflict in Kozarac,

    22          when Dusko came there to his home town, and after having

    23          worked in the Reserve Militia, then he worked in the Red

    24          Cross, Prijedor, too.  He helped many people on many

    25          occasions especially to refugees, Serbs who came from

Page 8936

     1          Sasinska Krinanj who moved in there, but I must say that

     2          he particularly cared about a Croat family that came to

     3          stay right next door to us, the house of Salih Hantic.

     4          They are Croats.  Dusko accommodated them there.  He

     5          helped them.  He brought them food every day.  It was

     6          very difficult then and it was dangerous to help people

     7          of a different nationality, different ethnic

     8          background.  Dusko didn't want to do them any harm.  He

     9          wanted to help them.  They are still living in Kozarac.

    10          They are leading a normal life.  If somebody would come

    11          and ask about Dusko, ask them, you would see what they

    12          thought of Dusko.

    13      Q.  And, finally, Mr. Tadic, do you know whether any criminal

    14          proceedings are being carried out today against your

    15          brother in Banja Luka?

    16      A.  Yes.  I was in the command of the 5th Kozarac bringing

    17          aid in Omarska perhaps half a year ago or a year ago,

    18          and there is -- criminal proceedings were instituted

    19          against him then, because he didn't want to go to fight

    20          in the war.  He didn't want to wear a uniform because

    21          not at a single point in time did Dusko want to wage

    22          war, did he want to go to the war.  He thought it was a

    23          stupid, pointless war.  It was the worst thing that

    24          could happen to people, and I think that he was afraid

    25          also, just like all of us.  I tell you, I wasn't in the

Page 8937

     1          war but I was afraid whenever a grenade fell.  There was

     2          not a single man who was not afraid.  He was afraid of

     3          the war.  He was terribly frightened of the war, and he

     4          said that as much as he could and in every way he could,

     5          he would try to avoid participating in the war, and that

     6          when he couldn't he would probably go as far away as

     7          possible and that is what he did.

     8      Q.  Thank you, Mr. Tadic.  I'm just interested in a few more

     9          things or rather one more thing.

    10      JUDGE STEPHEN:   I wonder if I can interrupt to ask you.  I

    11          didn't understand that last piece of evidence.  You

    12          asked about criminal proceedings being brought and I

    13          thought you were referring to criminal proceedings a

    14          year or so ago.  That seemed to be the evidence.  Is

    15          that what you are involved with?

    16      MR. VUJIN:   Yes.

    17      JUDGE STEPHEN:   Proceedings against Mr. Tadic instituted a

    18          year or so ago?

    19      MR. VUJIN:   Yes.

    20      JUDGE STEPHEN:   The evidence did not clarify what they

    21          were, and before you leave the topic, you might clarify

    22          it.

    23      MR. VUJIN:   I can try to clarify it with the witness.  Thank

    24          you very much.

    25                You said that criminal proceedings were instituted

Page 8938

     1          because he ran away from his unit and because he didn't

     2          respond to the call that came from the military unit.

     3          Did you hear of Mile Cavic?

     4      A.  Yes, I think that was the commander of that unit and

     5          they wanted to mobilise Dusko into that unit.

     6      Q.  Do you have any information as to how many times they

     7          came to call for your brother and how many times they

     8          came to bring him to that unit?

     9      A.  Several times in Prijedor and Banja Luka they looked for

    10          him and found him and brought him in twice, I think.

    11      Q.  In the written submission we submitted today you have a

    12          statement by Mile Cavic, the commander of that company,

    13          concerning that event, and during this hearing we are

    14          going to give you all the court materials on that?

    15      JUDGE STEPHEN:   Thank you.  So none of this was a year or

    16          year and a half ago.  It was some 3 or 4 years ago that

    17          the witness is speaking of; is that right?

    18      MR. VUJIN:   No.  The event itself took place three or four

    19          years ago, specifically in 1993, but criminal

    20          proceedings were instituted in 1996, while they managed

    21          to gather all the data and they were looking for Dusko

    22          Tadic, and when they definitely realised that he went

    23          away, that he left the country.  There are many such

    24          cases -- there were many such cases and the Prosecutor

    25          would initiate proceedings as sufficient information

Page 8939

     1          came in.

     2      JUDGE STEPHEN:   Thank you.

     3      MR. VUJIN:   Thank you.  Mr. Tadic, did your brother drink

     4          alcohol or was he inclined to do so?

     5      A.  No.  No.  He didn't drink at all.  He would drink fruit

     6          juice and sometimes with a group of friends he would

     7          perhaps have a glass of wine, but these were exceptional

     8          situations, when we had parties with our friends.  We

     9          would visit one another.  So these would be exceptional

    10          occasions.  Perhaps he would have a glass or two of

    11          wine, nothing more than that.

    12      Q.  And the final question, Mr. Tadic.  Before these events

    13          and apart from the proceedings that we mentioned, did

    14          Dusko Tadic have any problems with the authorities and

    15          were any kind of proceedings ever instituted against

    16          him?

    17      A.  You mean the previous authorities before these events?

    18      Q.  Was he ever brought before a court of law or anything

    19          like that?

    20      A.  No.  No.  I don't think that the authorities knew them.

    21          The commune was Prijedor and the local community was

    22          Kozarac.  The authorities didn't really know him.  He

    23          didn't make any kind of problem, because he went to

    24          school in Belgrade and then he went to school in Zagreb,

    25          the Applied Arts School.  Our father couldn't afford to

Page 8940

     1          send all of us to school.  There were four of us.  He

     2          came back from Belgrade from school.  Then he set up

     3          this karate club.  Then he went to Ljubjana, Zagreb,

     4          Sisak, Belgrade.  He had a private company, a firm of

     5          his own, and when he came back, yes, before our father

     6          died he came back, and then he opened a cafe.  He earned

     7          some money and then also before they went to Libya and

     8          then a war broke out there.  Then they had to go back.

     9          He really wanted to support his family, his two young

    10          children.  If a person doesn't work, he can't survive,

    11          and it's very difficult to be the breadwinner,

    12          especially in our situation back there now.

    13      Q.  Mr. Tadic, to the best of your knowledge what was the

    14          relationship within the family of Dusko Tadic between

    15          him and his wife, etc?

    16      A.  Very good.

    17      Q.  Thank you.

    18      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Niemann?

    19                      Cross-examination by Mr. Niemann

    20      MR. NIEMANN:   Mr. Tadic, you confirmed in your

    21          evidence-in-chief that you came before this Chamber last

    22          year and gave evidence in the course of the trial.  Do

    23          you remember saying that?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  On that occasion you gave your evidence publicly?

Page 8941

     1      A.  Yes.

     2      Q.  And, as I understand, there was no measures for

     3          protection or anything offered in favour of you on that

     4          occasion?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  On this occasion are you aware of the fact that there

     7          has been an order made for your safe conduct to the

     8          Hague, that you won't be arrested while you are here?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  Has anything changed since the last occasion that you

    11          were here to make you want to make such a request?

    12      A.  Probably they have.  That is why I made such a request.

    13      Q.  Would you mind telling us what they are?

    14      A.  What has changed is that I know that Dusko Tadic did not

    15          participate in any sense in those conflicts.  He has

    16          been in prison for three years and four months, and I

    17          know who fixed it, and I made my own investigation, and

    18          I am convinced that he has been substituted for somebody

    19          else, and if Dusko Tadic were to grow a beard for ten or

    20          fifteen days and have a haircut like that man, as that

    21          man did when Dusko Tadic was in the area of the Prijedor

    22          municipality, you would see that they were identical.

    23          If you took Dusko Tadic outside this courtroom, you

    24          wouldn't be able to recognise them one from the other.

    25      Q.  I'm asking about yourself.  What have you done to make

Page 8942

     1          you request a safe conduct order?

     2      A.  I asked protection because I was a soldier in the army

     3          of Republika Srpska.  If I know and I am 100 per cent

     4          sure that that man did nothing and this other man is

     5          driving the latest Mercedes and is enjoying luxury in

     6          life, then of course I will ask for protection.

     7      Q.  I will interrupt you again.  I'm asking what you have

     8          done.  What have you personally done between last year

     9          and now to make you want to make this request for safe

    10          conduct?

    11      A.  I have been watching and listening to this trial, and I

    12          told Mr. Wladimiroff about this man, and you did nothing

    13          about him.

    14      Q.  I am not asking you about this other man.  I am asking

    15          you about what you have done.

    16      A.  I apologise.

    17      MR. VUJIN:   I beg your pardon.  Maybe I could be of some

    18          assistance.  Have you received any threats in the

    19          meantime?

    20      A.  I will probably have problems when I go back home, you

    21          see.  That is what the situation is like over there.  I

    22          have not received any threats from you personally, but

    23          for months I was called up at home.  I was threatened,

    24          two women's voices and two men's voices.  I had a

    25          recording.  I gave that to Mr. Wladimiroff.  I was

Page 8943

     1          threatened recently when Dusko was found guilty.  These

     2          may be Serbs.  They may be anyone.  I don't know.  But

     3          it is a fact that I have been placed in such a situation

     4          that I don't trust anyone any more.  I have apologised,

     5          but I asked for protection so as to be sure that I could

     6          return to my family safely, because if I would have to

     7          prove my innocence like my brother has done, maybe I

     8          would suffer the same fate.

     9      MR. VUJIN:   I apologise.  Maybe this is outside the subject

    10          matter of this pre-sentencing proceedings to talk about

    11          the character of the witness at this stage.

    12      JUDGE McDONALD:   The question was asked some time ago why

    13          the witness had asked for freedom from being arrested

    14          and whether he had done anything that would cause him to

    15          fear that he would be arrested and, as I understand your

    16          answer, it is that you have not done anything -- correct

    17          me if I am wrong -- but you have received threats, and

    18          you did not know what might happen to you if you came to

    19          the Hague.  I have omitted a lot.  That's for sure.

    20      A.  Threats, you mean?  I just told you that I was

    21          threatened on the phone several times, so I asked for

    22          protection simply.

    23      MR. NIEMANN:   Just confining yourself to that specific

    24          issue, the threats that you received on the phone, are

    25          you suggesting that that came from somebody in the

Page 8944

     1          Tribunal.  Is that what you are suggesting?

     2      A.  No, no.

     3      Q.  So you are not suggesting that you are fearful of anyone

     4          in the Tribunal causing you any harm or difficulty while

     5          you are in The Hague?

     6      A.  No.

     7      Q.  No further questions.

     8      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Vujin,  do you have additional

     9          questions?

    10      MR. VUJIN:   No, thank you.

    11      JUDGE McDONALD:   We have no questions.  Thank you,

    12          Mr. Tadic, for coming again to the Tribunal.  You are now

    13          excused.

    14      A.  Thank you.

    15                      (Witness withdraws from court)

    16      JUDGE McDONALD:   We will stand in recess until 4 o'clock.

    17          Hopefully your other witnesses will be here by then,

    18          Mr. Vujin.

    19      (3.40 pm)

    20                               (Short break)

    21      (4.10 pm)

    22      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Niemann?

    23      MR. NIEMANN:   Thank you, your Honour.  There was a matter

    24          that I was wondering if I might raise at the moment.

    25          There is a name mentioned in the testimony which I have

Page 8945

     1          written on this piece of yellow paper, which I would ask

     2          to be shown to the Defence and your Honours.

     3      JUDGE McDONALD:   You wish a redaction?

     4      MR. NIEMANN:   I understand I am too late, your Honour, for

     5          the redaction.  It will appear in the transcript unless

     6          your Honours make an order to the contrary.  It appears

     7          at page 19, line 16.  I simply ask that that name be

     8          redacted from the transcript.  It was a witness, your

     9          Honour.

    10      JUDGE McDONALD:   I know that it was mentioned twice.

    11      MR. NIEMANN:   I will find out the reference.

    12      JUDGE McDONALD:   Both references.

    13      MR. NIEMANN:   Both references I would ask to be redacted.

    14      JUDGE McDONALD:   Is there any objection, Mr. Vujin?

    15      MR. VUJIN:   We understand the submission of the Prosecutor,

    16          but I was saying at the beginning in connection with

    17          other persons it is very difficult to ask the witness:

    18          "Who is so and so?"  You know that was a problem we had

    19          at the beginning.  I believe that there is no reason to

    20          have this name redacted from the transcript.

    21      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Niemann?

    22      MR. NIEMANN:   Your Honour, I think I will have to go into

    23          closed session or into private session if --

    24      JUDGE McDONALD:   I remember the witness.  The witness was

    25          not a protected witness.

Page 8946

     1      MR. NIEMANN:   No, that's right, your Honour.

     2      JUDGE McDONALD:   Why don't we do that at the close.  Is

     3          Mr. Ljubomir -- I understand he is to be recalled.  Is he

     4          available now?  Can we hear Mr. Ljubomir and another

     5          witness and then do this at the end, since we do not

     6          have enough time to redact it?

     7      MR. NIEMANN:   Yes, your Honour.

     8      MR. VUJIN:   Mr. Ljubomir.

     9      MR. NIEMANN:   Is this witness being recalled?

    10      JUDGE McDONALD:   Yes.  I was advised that Mr. Ljubomir Tadic

    11          is to be recalled.  Do you have any objection,

    12          Mr. Niemann?  I had assumed you had been told of this.

    13      MR. NIEMANN:   I have heard of it but I was not aware whether

    14          he was to be recalled.

    15      JUDGE McDONALD:   We will hear further from Mr. Tadic.

    16                         (Witness re-enters court)

    17                       Mr. Ljubomir Tadic (recalled).

    18      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Tadic, you had been excused.  I thought

    19          that your testimony -- you had completed your

    20          testimony.  You had previously taken an oath to tell the

    21          truth.  I will ask that you confirm that you still

    22          accept that oath and the testimony that you will be

    23          giving will be under oath, the same oath that you took

    24          before.  Do you agree to that?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 8947

     1      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Vujin?

     2      MR. VUJIN:   Thank you, your Honour.

     3                      Further Examined by Mr. Vujin

     4      MR. VUJIN:   After the examination, during the break, we came

     5          to the conclusion that we have not fully clarified the

     6          circumstances recording a part of your testimony when

     7          you said, and I think that is quite clear, that your

     8          brother has been persecuted by the bodies of the

     9          Republika Srpska?

    10      A.  Yes, I'm aware of that.

    11      Q.  We would like to clarify a little the circumstances that

    12          led up to this persecution, aside from his failing to

    13          respond to the call-up.  You are aware that upon the

    14          issuance of the mobilisation he tried and managed to be

    15          engaged as a reserve traffic policeman.  Did you

    16          participate in this?  In what way?  Will you explain

    17          please?

    18      A.  At that time Dusko was with me.  Rather, he was in Banja

    19          Luka.  He spent most of his time in my house.  The house

    20          that he was staying in is not far from my flat, where I

    21          live.  He used my telephone and on several occasions I

    22          tried to get in touch with Mr. Dusan Jankovic, Deputy

    23          Chief of the Interior in Prijedor.  He is a close family

    24          friend, and I tried to intervene so that he may join up

    25          with the traffic, reserve traffic police and avoid the

Page 8948

     1          military call-up.  We got into touch.  I said traffic

     2          policeman, yes.  We got in touch and we also called

     3          Radovan Vokic, who was an active policeman, and Dusan

     4          Jankovic was chief of the traffic police, and that is

     5          why we called him, and he promised to admit Dusko as a

     6          member of the reserve traffic police.  As I said when I

     7          was here the last time, the general mobilisation was on

     8          16th June 1992.

     9      Q.  Mr. Tadic, after all that, when your brother was arrested

    10          and virtually kidnapped, did you know where he was?  Was

    11          the family aware of his whereabouts?

    12      A.  I knew he was having problems, since he was working in

    13          Kozarac in the local commune.

    14      MR. NIEMANN:   Your Honour, I would ask that my friend use

    15          terminology other than "kidnapped" or if he wants to use

    16          that terminology, to explain in what context he uses it.

    17      JUDGE McDONALD:   I will overrule your objection. You may

    18          proceed, Mr. Vujin.

    19      MR. VUJIN:   Thank you, your Honour.  For my learned friend

    20          to hear and understand why we use this term, it is

    21          because our client, Mr. Dusko Tadic, was taken away in a

    22          manner that corresponds to the term used, and that is

    23          why I use the term.  Therefore, Mr. Ljubomir Tadic, were

    24          you aware where your brother was?  Did you look for

    25          him?  How did you look for him?

Page 8949

     1      A.  Yes, I did.  I looked for him.  I reacted immediately

     2          when I learned what had happened.  I called Prijedor

     3          several times.  Nobody wanted to answer.  Then I went

     4          there myself.  I found a couple of people.  Nobody knew

     5          anything or didn't want to say anything.  I came across

     6          the former President of SDS in Prijedor, Simo Miskovic.

     7          I asked him and he said: "I know nothing but I'll try to

     8          find out ".  Then I learned that he was in Gradacac.  I

     9          assumed that was where he could be, because that unit

    10          was in Gradacac.  Through a colleague of mine, a lawyer

    11          in the company, Ludi Jariz, that I worked in, he was

    12          also with a unit there.  Then I asked him to go and

    13          check and find out where my brother is.  He was arrested

    14          and taken away and I don't know what happened to him.

    15          It was very difficult.  For a moment I thought he had

    16          even been killed.

    17      Q.  Did he manage to get away?

    18      A.  Yes, he did.  He got away, but then he was arrested once

    19          again and taken to the front.  Afterwards he didn't want

    20          to go anywhere.  I know exactly the policeman who

    21          arrested him.  I think his name was Desimir.  After his

    22          arrest in Germany I found Desimir and he said at one

    23          point that he would testify to that effect, but he was

    24          probably not allowed to.

    25      Q.  Who didn't permit him?

Page 8950

     1      A.  The people in Prijedor.

     2      Q.  After July 1st, 1993, when he left the unit for the last

     3          time, was he in hiding?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  Where?

     6      A.  He hid in my apartment until he left for Belgrade.

     7      Q.  And from Belgrade?

     8      A.  And from Belgrade to Germany and then I learned through

     9          the media that he had been arrested.

    10      Q.  Do you know -- you probably do -- that he had problems

    11          with his apartment in Prijedor, that he was evicted from

    12          his flat?  Can you tell us anything about that?

    13      A.  Yes.  He was given an apartment for temporary use in

    14          Pecani.  He was there with his family for a time.  When

    15          these arrests occurred, as he didn't have permanent

    16          tenancy over this flat, he was evicted, and I think a

    17          colleague of his wife gave them a small apartment as you

    18          enter Prijedor, a building on the left-hand side with

    19          four or five stories -- there's a bank downstairs -- and

    20          he used this flat temporarily.  I know he didn't dare to

    21          go and pick up his things so he asked me to do it.  I

    22          found a colleague.  I gave him 50 Deutschemarks for the

    23          fuel to take his truck, and I went to him and my oldest

    24          son Nenad; a man called Slobodan, the owner of this

    25          truck; Saca Maric, a young man who was on leave at the

Page 8951

     1          time, a man from Banja Luka, who knew Dusko well, and

     2          before Dusko's departure I think they kept company in

     3          Banja Luka.  We went to Prijedor and very quickly

     4          secretly we collected his things -- there were very few

     5          -- because he didn't dare go himself.

     6      Q.  Did your brother ever get anything from the state

     7          authorities in the sense of an apartment or any other

     8          property or anything in the sense of a reward?

     9      A.  No.

    10      Q.  Let us go back to the causes of the persecution.  Do you

    11          know that before the conflict broke out in Kozarac were

    12          there any attempts to clear up certain things that

    13          occurred as a dispute between the municipality and the

    14          citizens of Kozarac?

    15      A.  Yes, I know quite a bit about those events and I can

    16          provide documents as evidence.  Quite recently I was

    17          looking for some documents and I found a document.  I

    18          can give it to you tomorrow.  When I was in Kozarac I

    19          said that I had a beer discount store, and I have a

    20          document when that beer was being delivered on the 21st

    21          for the last time.  So I spent quite a bit of time

    22          there.  I know what was happening.  I know that Dusko

    23          was a member of the civic forum.

    24      Q.  Now what is that?

    25      A.  Well, it's a kind of a non-party organisation, an

Page 8952

     1          organisation which rallied Serbs, Muslims and all

     2          others, people who -- I knew who led this organisation.

     3      Q.  At whose request did he join?

     4      A.  At the request of Kemal Susic, a teacher of physical

     5          education and a neighbour of ours, who actually formed

     6          this civil alliance, and I was present when he asked

     7          Dusko to join him so that they should form a delegation

     8          and go to Prijedor.  The atmosphere was highly tense at

     9          the time and everybody was afraid, including Dusko, and

    10          of course the Muslims in Kozarac, too, that a conflict

    11          could break out.  There were lots of people, as anywhere

    12          else.  I do not claim that only the Muslims were

    13          extremists.  There were extremists on all sides, the

    14          Serbs, the Muslims and Croats.  In Kozarac that were

    15          extremists from among the members of the SDA that would

    16          not allow this civil forum to function.  There were many

    17          provocations.  I remember Kemal Susic took his pupils

    18          and led them along the Main Street of Kozarac bearing

    19          placards.  They were all there together.

    20      Q.  Did your brother participate in those talks with

    21          representatives of the Prijedor municipality?

    22      A.  Yes.  I was there.  There was Dusko -- maybe I won't

    23          remember all the names -- there was Dusko, Kemal Susic,

    24          Hamdija Kahrimanovic -- I think he was the school

    25          principal at the time -- Fazic.  He was director of the

Page 8953

     1          sawmill.

     2      Q.  Do you consider this to have been one of the reasons --

     3      JUDGE McDONALD:   Excuse me.  You have an objection.

     4      MR. NIEMANN:   Yes, your Honour.  I don't know why we are

     5          traversing all of this evidence which we went through at

     6          great length at trial.  I don't see how anyway it

     7          assists your Honour in assessing the character of

     8          Mr. Tadic, so I object to it, because I don't see where

     9          it is leading us.

    10      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Vujin,  we did hear testimony about

    11          Mr. Tadic's involvement with the group of Muslims and

    12          Serbs, as I recall, meeting with mostly Muslims, and

    13          Mr. Tadic was representative because he was Serb, meeting

    14          with authorities in Prijedor.  We heard a lot of

    15          testimony about that and we heard regarding Kemal

    16          Susic.  We don't need to hear about Mr. Kemal Susic,

    17          that's for sure.  So I think as far as his involvement

    18          and Mr. Tadic's involvement in this effort, we've heard

    19          it.  If you want to highlight something, then you may.

    20      MR. VUJIN:   Yes.  We don't insist on the name of these

    21          witnesses.  We are just trying to convey to you, as the

    22          Trial Chamber, the facts which will serve as a basis for

    23          you to be able to draw conclusions on the character of

    24          Dusko Tadic as well as the fact that he was persecuted

    25          by Republika Srpska, and this persecution started when

Page 8954

     1          he joined this Civil Forum and when he refused to be

     2          mobilised, and he sought connections and friends to join

     3          the reserve traffic police, refusing to bear arms and

     4          wear a uniform, and we feel this is important for his

     5          characterisation.

     6                One further question for Mr. Tadic.

     7      JUDGE McDONALD:   As long as we are focussing on his

     8          character and not the character of witnesses who have

     9          come to testify, because this may be kind of a way to

    10          challenge the evidence that has already been received

    11          and accepted, and it has happened twice.  I'm afraid

    12          that we are now getting close to a third incident.  If

    13          that's not where you are going, fine, but we are aware

    14          of this.  So one further question on this.

    15      MR. VUJIN:   Mr. Tadic, do you believe that your brother,

    16          Dusko Tadic, could return safely to the Republika

    17          Srpska?

    18      A.  I wouldn't advise it since the people in power, who came

    19          into power in 1992 are still in power.  The same people

    20          are in power, so I would not advise him to go back.

    21      Q.  Do you feel that he would be persecuted?

    22      A.  He wouldn't be safe and his very life may be in danger.

    23      Q.  Thank you.

    24      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Niemann?

    25                Just one question, Mr. Tadic.  You testified a few

Page 8955

     1          moments ago about your calling in an effort to obtain a

     2          position for Mr. Tadic as a traffic policeman.  Do you

     3          recall that?

     4      A.  Yes, I think so.

     5      JUDGE McDONALD:   You mentioned a number of names of people

     6          whom you called.  Did you also call Mr. Vokic?  Do you

     7          remember your testimony when you were here and you

     8          testified you called Mr. Vokic and he is related, a

     9          distant relative?

    10      A.  Radovan Vokic.

    11      JUDGE McDONALD:   You did?

    12      A.  Radovan Vokic among others.  He was already an active

    13          policeman, traffic policeman.  He was already employed

    14          full-time, so he could help to persuade our friend to

    15          admit Dusko as a reserve traffic policeman.

    16      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Vujin,  do you have additional

    17          questions?

    18      MR. VUJIN:   None.  Thank you.

    19      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Niemann?

    20      MR. NIEMANN:   No.

    21      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Tadic, you are excused once again.

    22          Thank you very much for coming.  I think you are

    23          permanently excused.  Mr. Vujin,  would you call your

    24          next witness, please?

    25      A.  Thank you.


Page 8956

     1                     (Witness withdraws from court)

     2                         (Witness enters court)

     3                              Witness sworn

     4                          Examined by Mr. Vujin

     5      JUDGE McDONALD:   Thank you.  Mr. Vujin,  you may proceed.

     6      MR. VUJIN:   Thank you.  Madam, you are a friend of the Tadic

     7          family.  You and your husband were friends with some of

     8          the Tadic family members?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  With whom?

    11      A.  With all of them.

    12      Q.  Do you know the family circumstances involved?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  What was the life of the Tadic family like and where did

    15          they live?

    16      A.  They lived in Kozarac and they lived the life of an

    17          ordinary family.

    18      Q.  Who lived in their family home?

    19      A.  Dusko and his family, the mother and the father.

    20      Q.  Are his parents still alive?

    21      A.  The father died.  The mother is still alive.

    22      Q.  Do you know what the mother's health is like now?

    23      A.  She's very ill.

    24      Q.  So you were friends practically?

    25      A.  With the family of Dusko Tadic.

Page 8957

     1      Q.  Do you know the other brothers of Dusko Tadic?

     2      A.  Yes, I know them very well.

     3      Q.  Did you meet them also?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  Where usually?

     6      A.  In Kozarac.

     7      Q.  In which situations?

     8      A.  Usually on 1st May, when they slaughtered animals, also

     9          sometimes for the New Year.

    10      Q.  You mentioned the slaughter of animals.  You mean pigs,

    11          swine, as customary?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  Did Dusko Tadic take part in these rituals?

    14      A.  No, he usually did housework.

    15      Q.  Did he avoid that?

    16      A.  Yes.

    17      Q.  Why?

    18      A.  Because he couldn't stand the sight of blood.  He

    19          couldn't stand it.

    20      Q.  Could you tell us when would you see each other, would

    21          Dusko drink alcoholic beverages?

    22      A.  No, very rarely, only wine, a glass or two.

    23      Q.  Did you ever see him drunk?

    24      A.  No.

    25      Q.  Would you say whether Dusko was inclined to quarrel,

Page 8958

     1          fight?

     2      A.  No.  No.  He was a very good man and a good friend.

     3      Q.  What does that mean, being a good friend, in your

     4          opinion?

     5      A.  I consider him to be a good friend and I (redacted)

     6          (redacted)

     7          (redacted).

     8      Q.  Tell me when you would see each other and sit together,

     9          did you talk about every day matters, for example

    10          whether somebody had a hobby or whether he had a hobby?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  Do you know whether Dusko had a hobby?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  What?

    15      A.  He was fond of painting.

    16      Q.  Could you tell me how come you know?  What did you

    17          receive?

    18      A.  That is because I had a painting made by him in my

    19          apartment.  It's a present.

    20      Q.  He gave it to you as a present?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  So you would sit together and talk?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  If you don't mind, can I ask you what are you by

    25          nationality in terms of ethnic background?

Page 8959

     1      A.  I'm a Croat.

     2      Q.  Your husband?

     3      A.  He is a Croat.

     4      Q.  When you would sit together and talk, did Dusko Tadic or

     5          any member of his family ever bring up that question of

     6          Croats or Muslims?

     7      A.  No, no.

     8      Q.  Did they divide people according to ethnic background?

     9      A.  No, we also had Muslim friends too.

    10      Q.  Do you know what their relationship was with their

    11          neighbours and whether they had Muslims who were

    12          neighbours?

    13      A.  Yes, and they had very good relationships with them.  I

    14          know very well the next-door-neighbour of Dusko Tadic.

    15          Kiba was her name.

    16      Q.  And the relations were very good?

    17      A.  Very good.

    18      Q.  Do you know about Dusko Tadic's activity in the sports

    19          field?

    20      A.  Yes.

    21      Q.  What was he involved in?

    22      A.  I think that he trained karate.  I don't know if I'm

    23          using the right terminology.

    24      Q.  Do you know anything more about that, whether he was a

    25          coach?  Who did he coach?

Page 8960

     1      A.  Young people.

     2      Q.  Where?

     3      A.  In Kozarac.

     4      Q.  And these young people, of what ethnic background were

     5          there?

     6      A.  Most of them Muslims.

     7      Q.  After being friends with Dusko Tadic and before these

     8          actual events in the territory of Opstina Prijedor took

     9          place, did you know anything about the political

    10          activities of Dusko Tadic and whether he had any?

    11      A.  No.

    12      Q.  Do you know that Dusko was persecuted by the authorities

    13          of Republika Srpska?

    14      A.  At that time he stayed with me.  I knew that something

    15          was happening but I didn't know about anything in

    16          detail.

    17      Q.  Did you know that he was evicted from his apartment?

    18      A.  Yes, I know that but I don't know how and why.

    19      Q.  Thank you.  Do you know that Dusko was arrested and

    20          brought in by the military police?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  Why?

    23      A.  I can't really tell you exactly.  I can't respond to

    24          that exactly.

    25      Q.  Can you explain to us -- I'll show you a photograph

Page 8961

     1          here, with your permission.  I just want to ask you

     2          whether you can recognise what you see in this

     3          photograph.  (Handed)

     4      A.  Yes.  This is Dusko Tadic's house in Kozarac.

     5      Q.  So that is the apartment of Dusko Tadic?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  On the right-hand side on the wall there is a tapestry.

     8          Do you remember that?

     9      A.  Yes, I do.

    10      Q.  Can you describe it to us because we cannot see in the

    11          photograph here what it actually depicts?

    12      A.  That is the portrait of Comrade Tito.

    13      Q.  The family of Dusko Tadic, was it brought up in that

    14          spirit, in the partisan spirit?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  His father, although he was a partisan, did he enjoy a

    17          high reputation in Kozarac?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  Did you attend his father's funeral?

    20      A.  Yes.

    21      Q.  Can you describe that funeral to me in the sense of the

    22          number of people who attended and who bathed the father

    23          ritually?

    24      A.  My husband was the one who bathed his father's body and

    25          there were very many people.  It was a huge funeral. I

Page 8962

     1          think I had never seen such a big funeral.

     2      Q.  Who was present, citizens of what ethnic background?

     3      A.  Everybody from Kozarac was there.  Everybody was there.

     4      Q.  Do you know the extent to which his cafe was damaged?

     5      A.  I do.

     6      Q.  How did it happen?

     7      A.  I couldn't explain that to you.

     8      Q.  Was your house damaged?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  Do you know how?

    11      A.  I know.  A grenade was shot at it.

    12      Q.  Who shot?

    13      A.  I don't know.

    14      Q.  Finally, what could you say about Dusko, a person who

    15          you were friends with?  What kind of a person is he?

    16          What kind of character?

    17      A.  He's a very good friend, careful, generous.

    18      Q.  What about his relationship with his wife?

    19      A.  He had a wonderful relationship as husband and wife.

    20          They were truly in love.

    21      Q.  Did Dusko love children, especially his own children?

    22      A.  Yes, Valentina in particular.

    23      JUDGE McDONALD:   Thank you.  Mr. Niemann?

    24      MR. NIEMANN:   No, your Honour.

    25      JUDGE McDONALD:   Excuse me just one moment.  (Pause.)


Page 8963

     1                Witness, by the agreement of counsel, the Trial

     2          Chamber will refer to you as witness BB.  We do not want

     3          your name to be made a matter of public record, but

     4          Mr. Vujin is writing what he considers to be your name on

     5          a piece of paper.  It will be shown to the Prosecutor,

     6          and then it will be shown to you and then you will have

     7          to confirm that that is your name.  So if you will just

     8          wait a few moments, please.

     9      A.  Yes, that is it.

    10      JUDGE McDONALD:   Thank you very much.  You have no

    11          additional questions, Mr. Vujin?  And you have no

    12          questions, Mr. Niemann?

    13      MR. NIEMANN:   No, your Honour.

    14      JUDGE McDONALD:   Then that is it.  Thank you very much for

    15          coming.  You are free to leave now.

    16      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Vujin,  your next witness.

    17      MR. VUJIN:   Valentina Tadic.

    18                          Valentina Tadic (sworn).

    19      JUDGE McDONALD:   Thank you, Miss Tadic.  You may be

    20          seated.  Mr. Vujin,  you may proceed.

    21      MR. VUJIN:   Thank you, your Honour.  Miss Valentina, you are

    22          the daughter of Dusko Tadic?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  I know that it's very difficult for you at this moment,

    25          but I kindly ask you and we're not going to question you

Page 8964

     1          for long.  We just want to put a few questions to you to

     2          the extent to which you can answer about your

     3          relationship with your father and perhaps a few words

     4          about your family.  How old are you?

     5      A.  17.

     6      Q.  17.  Do you have vivid memories of your father while you

     7          were together?

     8      A.  Oh, yes, I remember that well.

     9      Q.  So let us break your stage fright.  I want to show you a

    10          picture done by your father.  Do you recognise yourself?

    11      A.  Yes, yes, I do.

    12      Q.  So we submit this to the Chamber as evidence.  This will

    13          be for you.  (Handed) Do you know about the fact that

    14          your father painted?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  Did he do that often?  Did he like doing that?

    17      A.  Yes, he always liked doing that.  He always liked to do

    18          that.

    19      Q.  This was by way of introduction and also to break your

    20          stage fright.  Miss Valentina, can you remember that far

    21          back, when you were a young girl, a little girl?  Can

    22          you tell us about the relationship between your father

    23          and your mother?

    24      A.  The relationship between my mother and father were

    25          good.  They loved each other.  They always agreed on

Page 8965

     1          everything.

     2      Q.  Did they quarrel?

     3      A.  No, they never quarrelled.  Perhaps -- I was an only

     4          child and my father paid a lot of attention to me.

     5      Q.  When was your sister born later?

     6      A.  Nine years later.  For nine years I was an only child.

     7      Q.  During those years were you the apple of your father's

     8          eye?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  How did your father express his love for you?

    11      A.  We would always walk together.  He would take me to the

    12          cinema.  I also trained karate with him, since I was a

    13          very young girl.

    14      Q.  So you trained karate.  How many of you trained karate?

    15      A.  I don't understand your question.

    16      Q.  Were there a lot of boys and girls who trained karate?

    17      A.  Yes, yes.

    18      Q.  Did you have good friends, boys and girls amongst them?

    19      A.  Yes, yes.  Most of my friends trained karate with me,

    20          yes.

    21      Q.  Who was your best friend?

    22      A.  Sinita Siviz was my best friend.

    23      Q.  Sinita Siviz?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  What was she by ethnic background?

Page 8966

     1      A.  A Muslim, yes.

     2      Q.  Where did she live?

     3      A.  She was my neighbour.  She lived nearby.

     4      Q.  You played together.  You were inseparable?

     5      A.  Yes, we also went to school together, to the same class.

     6      Q.  Let's go back to your father.  Was he strict or was he

     7          lenient?

     8      A.  He was never strict.

     9      Q.  When you would do something wrong as a child, who was

    10          the person who would talk to you, perhaps punish you?

    11          It was your father?

    12      A.  No, no.  My mother most occasions, yes.

    13      Q.  Did your father play with you?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  What were the situations like and how often was this?

    16      A.  Yes, often, whenever he would have enough time.  He paid

    17          a lot of attention to me.

    18      Q.  Did you also play with boys and girls, your neighbours?

    19      A.  Yes, yes, with all of them.

    20      Q.  What were the games involved?

    21      A.  The games ... we would ride bicycles.  We would play

    22          different ball games.

    23      Q.  Who taught you how to ride a bicycle?

    24      A.  My friends.  Together we would ride a bicycle.

    25      Q.  Did your father teach you how to ride a bicycle?

Page 8967

     1      A.  No.  No.  I never saw my father ride a bicycle.  I don't

     2          think he knows how to ride a bicycle.

     3      Q.  You think he doesn't know how to ride a bicycle?

     4      A.  No.

     5      Q.  How old were you when mummy went to Libya?

     6      A.  How old?  I think I was six.

     7      Q.  Yes.  Do you remember that period?  Who took care of

     8          you?

     9      A.  Yes, I remember very well.  Daddy and I lived together

    10          and he took care of me and mummy went there to earn a

    11          living and to make enough money for our future life.

    12      Q.  Did you know whether mummy and daddy tried to go abroad

    13          elsewhere?

    14      A.  Yes.  I remember.  They always wanted to go abroad,

    15          Australia, Canada.

    16      Q.  Why didn't they actually do this?

    17      A.  I'm not sure.  The South African Republic, I think.

    18      Q.  While your father took care of you, while he was with

    19          you, were there any problems in terms of preparing the

    20          food, your clothing, etc?

    21      A.  No, no.  He would prepare breakfast and lunch and

    22          whatever was needed, everything I needed, and we agreed

    23          with each other invariably.

    24      Q.  Do you love your father?

    25      A.  Yes, I do.

Page 8968

     1      Q.  Do you think he loves you?

     2      A.  Yes, he does.

     3      Q.  Does he love your mother?

     4      A.  Uh-huh.

     5      Q.  Your younger sister?

     6      A.  He loves her but I think that I'm his pet.

     7      Q.  Could you say something else about your father, what he

     8          was like?

     9      A.  Well, I could say that --

    10      Q.  Was he gentle?  Was he strict?

    11      A.  No, he was always gentle towards me.  I always had

    12          whatever I wished for and my great wish was to have a

    13          motorbike, and he said that he would never buy a

    14          motorbike for me because it was dangerous.

    15      Q.  Did he drive a motorbike?

    16      A.  No, he never did.

    17      Q.  Did you ever see your father drunk?

    18      A.  Drunk?  No.  No.  He would never drink.

    19      Q.  He led the life of a sportsman?

    20      A.  Yes, he was always the sports type, and he raised me in

    21          the same way.

    22      Q.  In a sports spirit?

    23      A.  Yes, in a sports spirit.

    24      Q.  Did he tell you about the values a person should have?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 8969

     1      Q.  What did he tell you?  What was the most valuable thing?

     2      A.  Well, he would always tell me that I should be involved

     3          in sports, that I should lead a healthy life.

     4      Q.  Did he raise you to become a good person?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  To be a sincere person?

     7      A.  Yes, and to work with others.

     8      Q.  Thank you.

     9      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Niemann?

    10      MR. NIEMANN:   I have no questions, your Honour.

    11      JUDGE McDONALD:   Miss Tadic, thank you very much for

    12          coming.  You are excused.  Thank you.

    13      A.  Thank you.

    14                      (Witness withdraws from court)

    15      JUDGE McDONALD:   Mr. Vujin,  would you call your next

    16          witness, please?

    17      MR. VUJIN:   Your Honour, the next witness would be Mira

    18          Tadic, but her questioning would probably take a bit

    19          longer.  At this point in time the defence is not

    20          prepared to start with that, so I kindly request that we

    21          continue with that tomorrow and we start questioning her

    22          tomorrow, bearing in mind our obligation with the

    23          psychologist so that we had to look into.

    24      JUDGE McDONALD:   Do you have another witness to call

    25          instead of Mira Tadic at this time?


Page 8970

     1      MR. VUJIN:   No.  Mr. Petrovic was not brought in.

     2      JUDGE McDONALD:   The Registry advises that Mr. Petrovic was

     3          not there at the hotel.  That's why they were not able

     4          to bring him over.

     5      MR. VUJIN:   Yes, I know that.  Yes, I am familiar with

     6          that.  Since it's 5 o'clock, I think --

     7      JUDGE McDONALD:   We had planned on proceeding until 5.30

     8          every day this week, except for Friday, if we have not

     9          completed.  We will begin at 2.30 and adjourn at 5.00

    10          pm.  The reason is we have to expeditiously use our time

    11          in the courtroom.  You can speak with the Registry

    12          representative about the report from the psychologist

    13          who examined Mr. Tadic and if the report is to be

    14          submitted, it would be requested that you provide it to

    15          the Trial Chamber this evening, if you can, and if

    16          there's nothing else, then we will adjourn until -- yes,

    17          Mr. Niemann?

    18      MR. NIEMANN:   There was that matter I raised earlier, your

    19          Honour.

    20      JUDGE McDONALD:   Yes, I'm sorry.  In closed session.  Let's

    21          resolve it now.

    22      MR. NIEMANN:   I don't think it has to be closed.  I think

    23          they just turn off the outside --

    24      JUDGE McDONALD:   That is true.  We decided we would do

    25          that.  We will just turn off the microphones going


Page 8971

     1          outside.

     2                           (In private session)

     3      (redacted)

     4      (redacted)

     5      (redacted)

     6      (redacted)

     7      (redacted)

     8      (redacted)

     9      (redacted)

    10      (redacted)

    11      (redacted)

    12      (redacted)

    13      (redacted)

    14      (redacted)

    15      (redacted)

    16      (redacted)

    17      (redacted)

    18      (redacted)

    19      (redacted)

    20      (redacted)

    21      (redacted)

    22      (redacted)

    23      (redacted)

    24      (redacted)

    25      (redacted)

Page 8972











11 Page 8972 redacted. Private session.















Page 8973











11 Page 8973 redacted. Private session.















Page 8974

     1      (redacted)

     2      (redacted)

     3      (redacted)

     4      (redacted)

     5      (redacted)

     6      (redacted)

     7      (redacted)

     8          So we will adjourn until tomorrow at 2.30.

     9      (5.10 pm)

    10                (Hearing adjourned until tomorrow at 2.30 pm)

    11                                --ooOoo--