1 Tuesday, 1st July 1997

2 (2.30 pm)

3 (In open session)

4 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujic, yesterday afternoon we spoke

5 about the two psychologists or perhaps a psychiatrist in

6 Germany who you wished to call as well the psychologist

7 here in Holland. As I indicated, the Trial Chamber had

8 read the report of Dr Nedopil and we really did not

9 understand your purpose in calling him. I don't know

10 what it would add. He examined Mr. Tadic, as I recall,

11 while he was in custody in Germany, so that was three

12 and a half years ago or so. Let's see. Here is the

13 report. I don't have the exact date. In any case that

14 was before he was transferred to the Tribunal here in

15 April of 1995. I gather he has not examined him since.

16 So I am wondering what is your purpose of calling him.

17 As we indicated in the June 12th order the Chamber

18 preferred written reports but if it was necessary we

19 would hear oral statements as well as receiving a

20 written statement. So I don't know the purpose of

21 calling him.

22 With respect to the psychologist here in Holland,

23 we all reviewed that report yesterday evening. The

24 psychologist examined Mr. Tadic in July of 1995, and

25 having read the report, I also do not understand the

1 need for that psychologist to appear and state what is

2 in her report. So would you please respond to those

3 concerns that I have?

4 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, this is true that yesterday we

5 discussed that, that an expert appears before this

6 court, a psychiatrist or a psychologist, one of those

7 who examined the accused, Dusko Tadic, so that we would

8 receive information based on the verified findings of

9 the tests carried out, so that we would get the

10 necessary explanations that are not contained in their

11 written findings and opinions. When we talked about the

12 Dutch psychologist, we only said that if

13 Professor Nedopil could not come before this court

14 because of the time that you established for having him

15 heard, that we hear this psychologist instead. However,

16 since I have been informed by the Victims and Witness

17 Unit that it was agreed with Mr. Nedopil that he would

18 come on Friday and that he would make it here by Friday,

19 10.00 am, that is to say the date that you established

20 in your order of June 12th, I feel it is necessary to

21 hear Professor Nedopil not so that we would establish

22 his ability to understand his actions -- that is a

23 psychologist is usually required to do -- but we would

24 like Professor Nedopil to explain how he came to his

25 findings as to the personality of Mr. Dusko Tadic. Of

1 course, the Defence has many other additional questions

2 in terms of Mr. Tadic's character and how he came to

3 certain conclusions, and that is why we insist on

4 having Mr. Nedopil brought before this court and heard

5 before this court.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: You had originally filed a request for a

7 continuance of this sentencing, stating that Dr Nedopil

8 would not be available. It was then in the Order -- you

9 are correct -- state if he was available prior to July

10 4th, we'll hear him. We'll hear him and we will be able

11 to see whether, in fact, after he testifies he has added

12 anything to the report which we have and have read. We

13 will hear him and then you will not be calling the

14 psychologist, I gather, from Holland.

15 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, I truly cannot establish at this

16 point whether there will be supplementary information

17 needed but I do expect certain additional information

18 and additional opinions.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Do you intend calling the Dutch

20 psychologist, Dr de Man-Roorda?

21 MR. VUJIN: No, your Honour. We will be satisfied once we

22 have heard Mr. Nedopil.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: Then we will hear from Dr Nedopil. I

24 understand that he will be here on Friday.

25 MR. VUJIN: Yes.

1 JUDGE McDONALD: Fine. Thank you, Mr. Vujin. You may call

2 your next witness.

3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, before the Defence do that, may I

4 raise just a couple of matters? Firstly, I understand

5 that the two exhibits that we tendered yesterday have

6 not as yet been allocated a number, and just continuing

7 on the numbering system that we had applied during the

8 trial, the next two numbers would be 371 and 372. P371

9 can be the investigator's declaration of Robert Reid

10 dated 17th June 1997, with the attachment A being the

11 affidavit of Hakija Elezovic, and perhaps P372 can be

12 the investigator's declaration of Thomas Akhavan, dated

13 17th June 1997.

14 Just following on from what has been said by the

15 Defence this morning and their intention to call the

16 witness on Friday, I don't know whether the proceedings

17 will then go on into next week, but if that occurs,

18 unfortunately I have a difficulty for the following two

19 weeks after that, so somebody else from the Prosecution

20 would have to take over in that event, if the

21 proceedings went on in those two weeks, your Honour.

22 JUDGE McDONALD: Yes, Mr. Keegan?

23 MR. KEEGAN: One other matter. There was one other matter

24 which was causing confusion for the Prosecution with

25 respect to the report of Dr Nedopil you mentioned. When

1 you refer to the report, are you referring to the

2 complete report of some 33 pages of Dr Nedopil, or are

3 you talking about the two page extraction which the

4 Defence submitted as part of their documents to the

5 court.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: All we have is what the Defence submitted.

7 MR. KEEGAN: All right, your Honour. We were just not sure

8 --

9 JUDGE McDONALD: If there's a fuller report, perhaps we

10 should have that before Dr Nedopil testifies. That

11 would give us some assistance perhaps in understanding

12 his testimony. Do you have a longer report or do you

13 just have a two-page report, Mr. Vujin?

14 MR. VUJIN: We have a complete report by Professor Nedopil,

15 but we thought that it was not necessary at this point

16 to burden the court with the entire report, given the

17 circumstances, but we can submit it to you, but only in

18 the original German language, because we don't have a

19 translation, in as many copies as you wish. We have

20 four copies of the entire material, but I don't think it

21 is needed, because it also contains certain information

22 that we are not going to discuss before this court.

23 MR. KEEGAN: We have the English translation of the complete

24 report here, your Honour.

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Provide Mr. Vujin with a copy of the

1 translation and we will take a recess at 4 o'clock, and

2 if he has an opportunity to review it and accept that

3 that's a proper translation, then it could be admitted

4 after the recess, or perhaps even tomorrow.

5 So that ends that. Give Mr. Vujin a copy of the

6 English one and then we would like copies of it, if

7 that's acceptable to the defence, if that's a proper

8 translation.

9 We judges have been discussing the scheduling

10 concerns. You have five additional, six additional

11 witnesses; is that correct, Mr. Vujin?

12 MR. VUJIN: We have two witnesses -- three witnesses for

13 today and we also proposed and expect to have Professor

14 Aleksic invited, too. So that would mean four witnesses

15 altogether. We believe that can all be completed

16 today. Then it remains to be seen what will be done

17 tomorrow and the day after tomorrow, but we believe at

18 any rate that we can finish on Friday, after having

19 heard Professor Nedopil, and that probably will not take

20 longer than an hour.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: You then believe you will be able to

22 complete -- you have four remaining witnesses and you

23 will be able to complete all four of them today,

24 certainly tomorrow.

25 MR. VUJIN: I imagine -- certainly by tomorrow. Certainly

1 tomorrow, your Honour.

2 JUDGE McDONALD: Is it possible to receive your oral

3 submissions, on oral submission from the Prosecution and

4 an oral submission from the Defence, as well as if

5 Mr. Tadic wishes to speak -- he may wish to speak after

6 Dr Nedopil -- is it possible we go forward with the

7 submissions from Prosecution and Defence, submissions

8 from counsel, regarding the appropriate sentence, and

9 then hear Dr Nedopil on Friday.

10 MR. VUJIN: As far as the Defence is concerned, we are

11 prepared for such a schedule, but perhaps we would say a

12 few words about what Mr. Nedopil would say on Friday, but

13 that wouldn't take very long.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann?

15 MR. NIEMANN: We are of the same position, your Honour. As

16 long as we can say a few things, if necessary.

17 JUDGE McDONALD: As long as we don't have any days not

18 working because we want to work every day. When we

19 complete the four witnesses, they will hear submissions

20 from counsel. Then we'll hear Dr Nedopil on Friday.

21 That will be some time after 10.00 am on Friday because

22 we have an initial appearance on Friday before that.

23 Then if you say additional words in light of

24 Dr Nedopil's statement, oral statement, then each side

25 will be permitted to do so. Okay. Mr. Vujin, you may

1 call your next witness, please.

2 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honour. The Defence calls upon

3 witness Nikola Petrovic, who will be examined by my

4 colleague, Mr. John Livingston -- Mr. Kostic, I'm sorry.

5 Mr. Nikola Petrovic (sworn)

6 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. You may be

7 seated. Mr. Kostic?

8 MR. KOSTIC: Thank you, your Honour.

9 Examined by Mr. Kostic

10 MR. KOSTIC: Your name is Nikola Petrovic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Good afternoon.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. Where do you live, sir?

15 A. I live in Banja Luka.

16 Q. What is your occupation?

17 A. By training I'm a cook. I completed a higher school for

18 cooks and now I work as a policeman in the local prison.

19 Q. Were you trained to be a police officer?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where was that?

22 A. 1982 in Zagreb.

23 Q. You have been a police officer since that time?

24 A. Since then I have been working as a police officer.

25 Q. (Inaudible) KP Dom. Would you explain to the Tribunal

1 what that is exactly?

2 A. KP Dom, Banja Luka, that is the name of this

3 institution, that is to say with the persons who are

4 imprisoned and detained.

5 Q. In some other countries the name for police officers who

6 do those kind of functions are corrections officers.

7 You are familiar with that?

8 A. Yes. There was a different name in our country, too,

9 but during the war and after the war we got a different

10 name. Policeman of the KP Dom.

11 Q. As such an officer?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?

14 A. I know Dusko Tadic.

15 Q. How long have you known Dusko?

16 A. When I was first here before this court I said the same

17 thing, that I have known him since 1975.

18 Q. You have known him either on a weekly or monthly basis

19 since 1975?

20 A. The tide of life took me to one side, him to another

21 side, but we were friends. Until 1978 or 1979

22 intensively we were seeing a lot of each other and from

23 1979 until 1980 something we didn't see each other that

24 often, but we did keep in touch.

25 Q. You were school friends also; correct?

1 A. No, he's older than I am. His wife and my wife are

2 school friends and we are friends from the club. We

3 were involved in sports together.

4 Q. How is your wife employed?

5 A. She works in a medical laboratory. She works in the

6 hospital in Paprizo in Banja Luka.

7 Q. With regard to being friends with regard to sports

8 activities, would you tell me a little bit about that?

9 A. We were together in this sports club and we trained

10 together with his brother Ljubo Tadic, who was in charge

11 of the club. We were involved in sports outside the

12 club, too; athletics, for example. We would lift

13 weights, etc.

14 Q. Did you belong to a particular club?

15 A. Yes, that club, the Borac Karate Club.

16 Q. Where does that name come from?

17 A. Borac. In Banja Luka there are several clubs called

18 Borac in Banja Luka: football, handball, basketball.

19 The karate club is also called Borac. Borac is somebody

20 who fights in a ring, a stadium, etc.

21 Q. Did you achieve yourself some level of status in your

22 sport?

23 A. Yes. Together with them and with their help as a young

24 man I won an award in karate.

25 Q. (Inaudible).

1 A. Yes, the First Dan black belt.

2 Q. Can you tell me about the karate that Mr. Tadic was

3 involved in both in terms of the physical type of karate

4 as well as if there is any philosophy that goes along

5 with that type of karate?

6 A. That is Ludarju style. In Banja Luka there were several

7 clubs that were called Shotokan style, Ludarju. We

8 chose this one. I came to that club by accident and I

9 liked the people and the way in which they were treated,

10 the coach and the people who trained there, so I stayed

11 on.

12 Q. Now you have testified earlier that you began to see

13 Mr. Tadic more frequently some time in 1989/1990; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. Tell me about the frequency of your meetings with

17 Mr. Tadic once we went to 1991 and 1992?

18 A. We would see each other every now and then, not that

19 often, when he would come to Banja Luka, he would try to

20 come to see me, too. Also I had relatives in Sanski

21 Most. So I would travel by his home and I would stop to

22 see him. Quite often I would also come to his cafe, to

23 his home. I admired his success, first and foremost,

24 the things he created in his life, his prospects, etc.

25 Q. (Inaudible).

1 A. He wanted to take care of his family financially. He

2 managed to earn enough money for the cafe. He was

3 talented. What can I say. I was involved in sports in

4 Kozarac. I said that before, that he also had a club

5 there.

6 Q. Did you ever visit the cafe that Mr. Tadic was operating?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell me about the atmosphere? Was there anything

9 particular about the music, the decorations in the cafe?

10 A. The music was for young people only to the best of my

11 knowledge, what young people enjoyed listening to at

12 that time.

13 Q. It was decorated very nicely, the cafe?

14 A. I don't know anything special. I didn't notice many

15 things then.

16 Q. Was it showing nationalistic slogans or some other

17 things of that nature?

18 A. No, I didn't notice that.

19 Q. Now there came a time when Mr. Tadic had an unfortunate

20 situation where a window was broken in his cafe. Are

21 you familiar with that?

22 A. That was the last time I visited him or the time before

23 that. I can't remember exactly. Before the SDA party

24 was established, that was the majority party in

25 Kozarac. As the minority in that town, it is only

1 natural. There were people -- I don't know how to put

2 this -- people could couldn't stand people who were of

3 Serb origin. I'm not trying to say it was everybody,

4 but there were individuals who in a way hated Serbs, and

5 during our conversation somebody threw a stone at his

6 cafe and there was a letter, a sort of a letter wrapped

7 around the stone.

8 Q. Excuse me. I'm just having a problem with the set, the

9 ear set. Mr. Petrovic, we don't want to go into all of

10 the details about that particular incident, but I just

11 wanted to know whether you discussed this particular

12 incident with Dusko. Tell me what his reaction was to

13 that incident?

14 A. Yes. We talked about that. He didn't react -- he

15 didn't overreact to it. He wasn't very disturbed by

16 it. He thought that it was only an individual who did

17 it, that it wasn't a mass of people who did it and this

18 wasn't out of personal hatred towards him. Somebody

19 threw it. I don't know. It wasn't established who it

20 was.

21 Q. Did he tell you that he wanted to get some type of

22 revenge against this person who did that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now I'm going to sort of focus your attention to a

25 period of time in 1992 and tell me how frequently you

1 met with Mr. Tadic during that year?

2 A. I just said so. Before the fighting in Kozarac we would

3 see each other a couple of times say in 20 days or in a

4 month, and when the fighting broke out in Kozarac and

5 that area, Dusko escaped to Banja Luka and we would see

6 each other every day and sometimes every other day, but

7 at any rate we would see each other frequently.

8 Q. Did you discuss the events and activities that happened

9 in Kozarac at that time?

10 A. Every time we would see each other it was a normal

11 visit. We would go out for a drink, and then we would

12 talk about what happened to your house, what happened to

13 your cafe, how are you faring here, where do you live,

14 what are you going to do in the future. That was the

15 kind of conversation we had. He didn't have a way out

16 of that situation then. Something had to be done, and

17 he didn't know what, because the times were such,

18 because you imagine that you can do something one day

19 and the next day you are simply lost.

20 Q. What was his attitude about what was happening there at

21 that time?

22 A. He was sorry, because he lived for Kozarac and he lived

23 in Kozarac as far as I know. He was sorry that things

24 happened the way they did. I'm saying this in all

25 sincerity. He was sorry for his friends and he had many

1 Muslim friends there and also some Serbs who fled from

2 there, who had to flee. He felt sorry for them, too,

3 but what could he do? He was sorry about everything

4 that had taken place there.

5 Q. Do you know if he made attempts before the conflict to

6 try to prevent that conflict in Kozarac?

7 A. Well, let me tell you in my view Kozarac was led by a

8 political party, and he could not do anything about it,

9 because he was a national minority there, and it seems

10 to me that in some way these people were deceived, these

11 Muslims, too, because -- I mean, this is my personal

12 opinion, because they accepted this kind of dual --

13 these kind of orders from I don't know who.

14 Q. Let me ask you about the circumstances that Dusko Tadic

15 found himself in 1992, and you saw him regularly. Did

16 you have discussions with him about the fact that there

17 was going to be a general mobilisation of all men to

18 become members of the army of Republika Srpska, and what

19 was his attitude about that?

20 A. The mobilisation started immediately, first of all,

21 voluntary mobilisation, and after that under orders of

22 the Banja Luka Court, that is to say that all people who

23 were able for military action received call-up papers

24 and were supposed to go to their war posts, and those

25 who didn't have such posts, and there were a lot of

1 people who were in hiding because, of course, there were

2 a lot of people who didn't want to go and get killed

3 from all sides, not only from the Serbian side, they

4 went into hiding. Muslims, Croats and a lot of Serbs,

5 too, didn't want to go and fight the war. Among them

6 was Dusko also because at that time he was staying in

7 Banja Luka, as I already said. I personally had to hide

8 him on one occasion because a military patrol came by.

9 Q. Let me stop you there. You are telling us about a

10 military patrol. What was the method of mobilising

11 people in Banja Luka at that time?

12 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Kostic, can you establish a date when

13 he is referring to?

14 MR. KOSTIC: Yes. I am interested in a time that would be

15 1992, when you were seeing Mr. Tadic on a regular basis,

16 and I would say that would be between the end of May

17 through June, July and August of 1992.

18 A. The methods of mobilisation.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I mentioned that, first, a call-up document was sent by

21 courier, and people who did not respond to this

22 document, military police patrol would come to his house

23 to pick him up. If he was not home, if he was caught in

24 the street, then the military patrol asks for his ID,

25 which requires showing your military identification card

1 with a stamp indicating the war unit you belong to.

2 Those who don't have such ID documents are usually

3 arraigned, put in a military van and taken to military

4 custody. They were given uniforms, given weapons and

5 sent to the front, where the fighting was worst.

6 Q. Were there also situations where the military police

7 would just surround an area and question all males

8 between the ages of 20 and 50, let's say?

9 A. Yes. That would happen regularly in the market place.

10 We were trying to earn some money for a living at the

11 market, and me and Dusko saw each other often there.

12 They would simply surround the market place. There

13 would be three or four patrols, and they would carry out

14 their controls or checking of able-bodied men from 20 to

15 50, 60. Then the procedure follows, as I have just

16 said. You have to show your military ID papers. If you

17 don't have them, you go to the front.

18 Q. You had occasion to hide Mr. Tadic from such procedures?

19 A. On one occasion I concealed him because he didn't have

20 any papers. I managed to hide him and later on he went

21 to his brother's, Ljubo, or wherever he was staying. I

22 was never there so I don't know exactly but he went to

23 his apartment. When he saw there was no choice after

24 all that he had to report somewhere to have a wartime

25 assignment, and as far as I know, he found some

1 connections, somebody who had a position high up, who

2 sent him to Prijedor to be a traffic policeman, because,

3 of course, it was difficult to get such a post, just to

4 keep watch duty on the road.

5 Q. In any of your discussions with Mr. Tadic did he tell you

6 why he did not want to be mobilised?

7 A. I didn't want to be mobilised myself and neither did

8 he. After all, it's much nicer to be with one's

9 family. He simply didn't want to go to war, as far as I

10 could understand him. Some people volunteered even to

11 wage war, but he didn't have the slightest inclination.

12 He felt no hatred for anyone. He never saw any point in

13 that war.

14 Q. This is what he told you?

15 A. Yes, he told me.

16 Q. Now you continued your relationship with Mr. Tadic into

17 the later part of 1992, did you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you have discussions with Mr. Tadic about his desire

20 to leave Republika Srpska?

21 A. On one occasion I visited him in Prijedor to see how he

22 was getting on and where he was living, and we talked.

23 After that, after those exchanges of visits, he came to

24 Banja Luka again, and he talked to me, because my sister

25 is in South Africa, and he asked me to give him her

1 telephone number so that he could contact her to move

2 and settle there, because he had lost his father in the

3 meantime and, of course, as far as I heard, he had

4 problems with the Prijedor authorities. I don't know

5 whether the flat belonged to a company or the

6 municipality, but he was being thrown out and he had to

7 leave the apartment, and his house in Kozarac was

8 damaged -- I know that; I saw it -- so he didn't have

9 any place to go. If you are there, you have to go to

10 war, but you've got to do something. You have to have a

11 wartime assignment, and if you're at war you have no

12 income. What are you going to live off?

13 Q. (Inaudible) period of time when Mr. Tadic returned to

14 Kozarac?

15 A. He returned to Kozarac I think it was -- I think I saw

16 him at the beginning of 1993, the first half of 1993, I

17 think.

18 Q. What was he doing in Kozarac at that time?

19 A. At the time I think he held the post of secretary of the

20 local commune of Kozarac, but he hadn't moved into his

21 own house. He was living in Prijedor and he was

22 travelling there, at least when I went to visit him. He

23 went to Kozarac on a daily basis to his office.

24 Q. Did you have conversations with him at that time, and that's

25 early 1993, whether he wanted to remain in the Republika

1 Srpska, or had a desire to leave?

2 A. Yes. We talked. He didn't see any future for him

3 there. He wanted to go somewhere, but he didn't know

4 where.

5 Q. Eventually he left Kozarac; is that right?

6 A. Yes, he came to Banja Luka again.

7 Q. Did you have contact with him at that time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What were his plans at that time?

10 A. His plans were, as I said, to -- he wanted to go to

11 South Africa. He called my sister up a couple of times,

12 but it was difficult to get the necessary papers. Then

13 later on he decided to go to see his brother, Mladen,

14 who was in Germany. I don't know in which town exactly.

15 Q. Throughout 1991, 1992 and 1993, were you working at your

16 position at a police officer -- correctional officer?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you aware through your contacts that Dusko Tadic

19 was arrested in regard to his failure to answer the call

20 for mobilisation?

21 A. I know he had some problems in Prijedor, that people

22 were jealous of his post of secretary of the local

23 commune, and it was only normal, because one group of

24 people were going to war and getting killed, and there

25 he is sitting in his nice office, and then they, as far

1 as I know, demanded that he go to the front.

2 Q. During your years as a police officer and a correctional

3 officer you had an opportunity to know about criminal

4 matters, who was arrested, who the people are who tended

5 to cause trouble in that area; is that correct?

6 A. (Witness nodded.)

7 Q. Did you ever hear that Dusko Tadic was arrested for a

8 violation of the laws?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You also know a lot of people, and my question now is

11 framed really in a time period for all of the years that

12 you've known Mr. Tadic. You have talked about Mr. Tadic

13 with other people, have you not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And he has a certain reputation in his community, does

16 he not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What is his reputation in regard to his ability to be

19 law-abiding, not to cause trouble, not to violate the

20 laws?

21 A. In Banja Luka there was a lot of talk, because it is a

22 small town, about the Tadic brothers, who had clubs in

23 Germany, Banja Luka, Prijedor, Kozarac, and only the

24 best things were said of them, as far as I know. In

25 Kozarac, too, we had a number of sports meets, and I

1 went there and I saw that there too he had a high

2 reputation. He was respectable. His family, his father

3 was deeply respected by the local people, by the local

4 Muslims in Kozarac. Therefore, the whole Tadic family

5 was highly respected. It was not known for any

6 violations of the law, for being quarrelsome or in any

7 way doing anything bad. They led a normal life.

8 Q. You have spent through all of those years a lot of time

9 with Mr. Tadic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You socialised with him. You were in public places with

12 him, and, of course, through your competition, you

13 attended those events; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Tadic lose his temper, get involved

16 in a fight, or threaten people?

17 A. No, I never noticed anything like that. I know when he

18 was training with his own brother it was done in a

19 sportsman like spirit. The two of us never had this

20 kind of sports training between ourselves. We never

21 had a fight, a sports fight, so I think he was a good

22 sportsman.

23 Q. My question is not just in regard to athletic contests

24 but also with regard to his behaviour with you in

25 public, in public places?

1 A. There were never any problems because I never wanted to

2 make -- cause problems myself, and Dusko was a modest

3 man. We led a quiet life. If we went out, we went out

4 with girls. We didn't wish to compromise our reputation

5 by causing any difficulties.

6 Q. Having the ability to spend time with Mr. Tadic,

7 particularly the last few years, 1992/1993, all the

8 events that occurred in that part of former Yugoslavia,

9 do you have -- do you know from talking to Mr. Tadic and

10 observing him how did he react to all of those events

11 sort of in the final analysis when it was all over?

12 A. I personally can say what I thought, and I can speak on

13 his behalf, that he was horrified by certain things that

14 were happening. He felt that was he to join in

15 anything, as a secretary of the local commune, that he

16 could maybe make some improvements, but, as I said, the

17 first time there was euphoria was widespread on all

18 three sides. I'm not defending either side. If the

19 world and the international community had not prevented

20 it, I don't know where it would have led.

21 As for Dusko, he also looked upon all of this with

22 horror, because -- and he didn't like it, of course,

23 because he wanted to go from there. He wanted to

24 escape, because he didn't find his way in those

25 surroundings.

1 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Keegan?

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Keegan

3 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Petrovic, in your

4 testimony today you stated that you had admired Dusko

5 Tadic and his success in the Kozarac area the things

6 that he created for himself, and you stated that you

7 admired that he had managed to earn enough money for his

8 cafe. Are you aware that he borrowed that money from

9 Muslims from Kozarac, those same Muslims who he then

10 helped to cleanse from the area and imprison in Omarska

11 and Trnopolje?

12 MR. KOSTIC: It is a multiple question.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: I will overrule your objection. Can you

14 answer that question, Mr. Petrovic?

15 A. I didn't get the translation at all.

16 JUDGE McDONALD: That solves that problem. You can break

17 it down and translate it.

18 A. I can hear now.

19 MR. KEEGAN: The first part was to ask if you recalled your

20 testimony. Are you aware that Dusko borrowed the money

21 to start that cafe from Muslims in Kozarac, the same

22 Muslims he helped to imprison in Omarska, Keraterm and

23 Trnopolje?

24 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

25 Q. You also stated that you knew that Dusko Tadic did not

1 want to be mobilised into the armed forces. Are you

2 aware that, in fact, Dusko Tadic did serve with the

3 forces that attacked Kozarac and cleansed the Muslims,

4 killed Muslims and imprisoned them in camps in the

5 Prijedor area?

6 MR. KOSTIC: I have an objection?

7 A. Dusko Tadic --

8 JUDGE McDONALD: Excuse me. Yes.

9 MR. KOSTIC: I think again it's a multiple question. The

10 other thing is that it was my belief that the

11 culpability issue was not going to be examined here, and

12 I think both of the questions have asked that question.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Keegan?

14 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, ma'am. Well, the involvement of Dusko

15 Tadic in the attack on Kozarac --

16 JUDGE McDONALD: Do you wish Mr. Petrovic to take off his

17 earphones? That is the procedure we followed during the

18 trial.

19 MR. KEEGAN: I don't think it is necessary. That has been

20 established by the court --

21 A. I can testify --

22 JUDGE McDONALD: Just wait one moment. Counsel now are

23 discussing questions with me really.

24 MR. KEEGAN: -- in its findings, and so I'm simply using

25 that fact to test the basis for this witness' opinions

1 and assertions.

2 JUDGE McDONALD: I'll overrule your objection, Mr. Kostic.

3 Now Mr. Kostic says it's a multiple question. He can

4 answer "yes" and we don't know whether he's answering

5 "yes" to the first part or the second part. That's an

6 objection.

7 MR. KEEGAN: The first part is not actually a question. It

8 is simply the recollection of the witness' testimony.

9 The question is: are you aware that he participated in

10 the attack and the actions that occurred in that

11 attack?

12 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay. That's the first part.

13 MR. KEEGAN: That's the question.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: Go ahead. Can you answer that question?

15 A. I remember Dusko Tadic did not participate in the attack

16 on Kozarac, because at that time he was in Banja Luka.

17 MR. KEEGAN: Yes. Not going with your testimony the first

18 time you were here, today you spoke of an occasion that

19 you had to give Dusko Tadic shelter from some raids in

20 Banja Luka, when the police were trying to round up men

21 who were avoiding the mobilisation. Do you recall that?

22 A. There was no attack on Banja Luka. They were the

23 military police forces for mobilisation who carried out

24 such operations on virtually a daily basis.

25 Q. Yes. Today you testified that on one occasion you had

1 to hide Dusko Tadic; is that right?

2 A. Yes. We were sitting in a cafe and I had to hide him so

3 that he wouldn't get mobilised because he didn't want to

4 be mobilised.

5 Q. Well, in your previous testimony before this Tribunal

6 you, in fact, never mentioned that. Your only testimony

7 was that when raids started for men of military age who

8 were to go to the front, Dusko Tadic fled and returned

9 to Prijedor.

10 A. He first fled Kozarac and came to Banja Luka. He hid in

11 Banja Luka for a time. I know very well what I said the

12 first time. Dusko Tadic hid for a long time escaping

13 mobilisation. He didn't want to go to war.

14 Q. You also stated today that the traffic police position

15 was a difficult position to get, that he must have had

16 some connection in order to get that job. Do you recall

17 that?

18 A. The position was a part of the police force and there

19 were many checkpoints in those days. Through certain

20 connections -- I don't know the name of the connection,

21 I know it went through somebody who appointed him to

22 that post, so he would have some kind of a wartime

23 assignment, because this was counted.

24 Q. Do you think it's possible that he got that position as

25 a reward for his service on the attack on Kozarac?

1 MR. KOSTIC: Objection. Asked and answered. I think he is

2 asking a very speculative question without any

3 foundation.

4 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. This witness has testified,

5 one, that he is a police officer for fifteen years. He

6 has testified now that he understands it requires some

7 sort of connection in order to get such of a job. He

8 also testified he knows the Kozarac area and Dusko Tadic

9 very well.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: I really don't think his opinion will help

11 the Chamber. I will sustain the objection. You need

12 not answer the question, Mr. Petrovic.

13 A. I will, if necessary.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: I would prefer you not.

15 MR. KEEGAN: In light of that, I will not ask any additional

16 questions.

17 MR. KOSTIC: Your Honour, I have no re-direct.

18 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Petrovic, you are excused permanently.

19 Thank you for coming again to the Tribunal.

20 A. Thank you, too.

21 (Witness withdrew from court)

22 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, would you call your next

23 witness, please?

24 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honour. The Defence calls Ms.

25 Mira Tadic.

1 JUDGE McDONALD: Would you please read the declaration that

2 has been given to you, Ms. Tadic?

3 Ms. Mira Tadic (sworn)

4 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you, you may be seated.

5 A. Thank you.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, you may proceed.

7 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honour.

8 Examined by Mr. Vujin

9 MR. VUJIN: Ms. Tadic, this is the second time that you

10 appear before this court?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you remember your testimony the first time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you still abide by that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Ms. Tadic, today we would like to hear from you certain

17 things that you were not asked then and things that you

18 perhaps mentioned only in passing?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. We are interested in your family relationships, your

21 family -- your relations in the family in the broader

22 sense, how you see your husband. We are interested in

23 what you know about his activities, and that is why we

24 are going to take things in a certain order.

25 How long have you been together with Dusko?

1 A. You mean married or how long we've known each other?

2 Q. How long you have known each other. When did you marry?

3 A. We met when I was 15 and when I was 18 I married him.

4 Q. When did you marry him?

5 A. On 17th April 1979 -- August. August. I'm sorry. I

6 got confused.

7 Q. Please calm down a little bit. We understand the

8 situation, but we need some of these specific data.

9 Where did you live after you got married to Dusko

10 Tadic.

11 A. In the family home in Kozarac.

12 Q. Yes. Whose house was this?

13 A. The family home of Dusko's father.

14 Q. Of Dusko's father. Did you live together with Dusko's

15 father and mother?

16 A. Yes, in a joint household.

17 Q. What were the relations between you as the

18 daughter-in-law and them as the parents-in-law?

19 A. We got along very well.

20 Q. And what was your attitude towards them?

21 A. Yes, I also appreciated them and I respected them and

22 liked them.

23 Q. We already said that Dusko Tadic's father died; is that

24 true?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. In what state of health is his mother now?

2 A. She is ill. She is hardly mobile.

3 Q. What are you by training?

4 A. A nurse.

5 Q. Are you still on good terms with the mother and family

6 of Dusko Tadic?

7 A. Yes, basically I'm the one who is taking care of her.

8 Q. What was Dusko's father's attitude towards his sons? We

9 know that Dusko also has three brothers?

10 A. He took great care of them. I would say that he was

11 even over-protective of them. He cared for his children

12 immensely.

13 Q. What was the attitude of the children towards their

14 father?

15 A. They loved him and respected him.

16 Q. Yes. Was there ever any quarrelling between Dusko and

17 his father or you?

18 A. No. No. No.

19 Q. What about the relations between and among the brothers?

20 A. Good as long as the father was alive.

21 Q. And after the father died?

22 A. There were certain tensions because of property affairs,

23 in terms of sharing the property.

24 Q. Was this handled eventually?

25 A. Yes, yes.

1 Q. Who raised the issue of property?

2 A. It was raised by his brother Mladen [Redacted)

3 (redacted). That is what it was

4 basically.

5 Q. (redacted)

6 (redacted). Does Mladen still live in Kozarac today?

7 MR. NIEMANN: I object to the question and the answer about

8 another witness in these proceedings and I would ask

9 that there be a redaction.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin?

11 MR. VUJIN: It was answered by other witnesses, too, but I

12 think the court can hear about these facts from this

13 witness also and this can be of importance. I don't see

14 why facts should not be checked through the statements

15 of all witnesses.

16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, my understanding of these

17 proceedings is we will hear evidence from witnesses

18 about the character of Mr. Tadic and that's the purpose

19 of it and the purpose of that evidence is to assist your

20 Honours in determining any sentence that you may

21 ultimately impose. It has nothing to do with any other

22 witness or any other person that has had any connection

23 with these proceedings other than Mr. Tadic, and I

24 strongly object to the defence bringing up issues

25 relating to other witnesses who have testified before

1 these proceedings.

2 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin?

3 MR. VUJIN: Who mentioned what? Last time I also said that

4 when I examine a witness, I ask the witness questions

5 that I'm interested in. I'm interested in relations

6 within the Tadic family, the relations between the

7 brothers, so that you would get the impression of the

8 family that he comes from, so that you would see what

9 kind of person he is, so that you could decide on the

10 sentence, if that is what is supposed to be done. So if

11 the witness is answering something, the Defence has no

12 way of knowing what the answer is going to be. So this

13 kind of objection of the Prosecutor is unfounded.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: Yesterday we did have a concern about

15 witnesses coming --

16 MR. VUJIN: I insist on that.

17 JUDGE McDONALD: -- Coming to testify about the character

18 of Mr. Tadic and using that opportunity either

19 intentionally or perhaps unintentionally to cast

20 dispersions on witnesses who have testified during the

21 trial. Now that should not be done. The question that

22 you asked was: what were the relations like between the

23 brothers and the answer was that there were tensions

24 after the father died. That ended the answer really.

25 Ms. Tadic then volunteered that they were started by a

1 brother and then at the insistence -- so I don't know

2 the answer was called for by Mr. Vujin, but Mr. Vujin,

3 would you please, as you confer with your witnesses as

4 they come -- before they come to this hearing, make it

5 very clear to them that the purpose of the hearing is to

6 hear about Mr. Tadic and not to refer negatively for

7 whatever purpose they may wish to about witnesses who

8 have testified, and, Ms. Tadic, since you are hearing

9 this discussion, you understand what I am saying. We

10 would very much like to hear from you giving your

11 opinion?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: -- About the character of your husband and

14 any other matters that may help this Trial Chamber in

15 determining the appropriate sentence but witnesses who

16 have previously come to testify are not on trial, and

17 there is really no need to mention them. So the answer

18 is yes, there were tensions after the father died

19 between the brothers, but it is totally irrelevant who

20 caused those tensions, and certainly when you mention a

21 witness who has come --

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE McDONALD: -- There is a concern on the part of the

24 Prosecutor. If you will, please refrain from those

25 kinds of responses. Thank you. Go ahead, Mr. Vujin.

1 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honour. Ms. Tadic, who lives in

2 the family house of the Tadic’s now?

3 A. Dusko's brother with his wife and children and mother.

4 Q. What is Mladen's wife's name?

5 A. Suzanna.

6 Q. What nationality is she?

7 A. She's Catholic.

8 Q. Thank you. Ms. Tadic, after your daughter Valentina was

9 born, how was she named?

10 A. She was named by my late father-in-law. She was named

11 after Valentina Triaskova, who was the first woman

12 astronaut.

13 Q. Did your father-in-law bring his children up in such a

14 way so as to respect all nationalities?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now that we mentioned the name, it just came to my

17 mind. I want to ask you: how did you call Dusko in the

18 family?

19 A. Dule.

20 Q. Why?

21 A. It was a nickname, a term of endearment.

22 Q. Dule is a term of endearment?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. What kind of a husband and father was Dusko?

25 A. For me a very good husband and father. That means that

1 he was caring, he was always attentive and caring. He

2 took me to nice places. He would buy everything for me

3 and my daughter. He helped me with the housework.

4 Q. Enough for me. Did he help you with all housework when

5 you were present and absent? Did he take care of the

6 children?

7 A. Yes, he did take care of them.

8 Q. Did he do everything? Was he ashamed to do some of the

9 women's chores?

10 A. No. He did women's chores and he didn't do some of the

11 men's chores. For example, he would never cut up the

12 firewood. He would never slaughter a chicken for me.

13 On the 29th, when we would slaughter pigs, he never took

14 part in that. It was very strange to me, because I come

15 from the rural areas and it was the man of the house who

16 was supposed to take care of that. My father would

17 always do that, for instance, but we always had to call

18 somebody else.

19 Q. Thank you, Ms. Tadic. Before the events and during the

20 events in the Prijedor Opstina and after that you always

21 accompanied your husband?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell me before these events was Mr. Tadic

24 interested in politics?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Did he have certain political activities?

2 A. No, only in the pre-war period when Yugoslavia fell

3 apart. Only then we had such activities.

4 Q. What was that?

5 A. Organising the plebiscite.

6 Q. Organising the voting for the plebiscite?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That was when you were appointed a member of the

9 committee?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. By the municipal commission?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Let me just interrupt you for a moment,

14 Mr. Vujin. Regarding the prior objection that was

15 established, Mr. Niemann, the redaction will be granted.

16 You may continue, Mr. Vujin.

17 MR. VUJIN: Thank you. Ms. Tadic, are you aware of the

18 facts related to the activities of your husband as a

19 member of the Red Cross, as a secretary of the local

20 community?

21 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

22 Q. Can you tell me when the local community of Kozarac

23 started working again and who was involved in this

24 restoration of activities?

25 A. Activity was restored by my husband; Bosko Dragicevic --

1 can I mention other names? I don't know. With some

2 other people, Serbs, from Kozarac. This started some

3 time in August 1992.

4 Q. Yes. Could I now tender certain documents on the

5 restoration of the activity of the Kozarac local

6 community? We have some more documents.

7 JUDGE McDONALD: It is not fair that you perform all of the

8 functions, Mr. Vujin. We have two people here to help

9 you.

10 MR. VUJIN: I have five copies.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone, please.

12 MR. VUJIN: Is this the decision restoring the local

13 community?

14 A. Yes, that's it.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: This document has been numbered what

16 exhibit? We will number them consecutively from the

17 Defence's exhibits at trial as well, as the Prosecutor

18 has. We were going to renumber all those. This would

19 be what?

20 THE CLERK OF THE COURT: This would be document D108.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you.

22 MR. VUJIN: The next document, we are supposed to show it,

23 it has a signature on it. This is the next document.

24 Ms. Tadic, do you recognise the signature on the

25 original document in the Serbo-Croat language?

1 A. This is not the original document. It is a photocopy.

2 Yes, I recognise it. It is the signature of my

3 husband. You can't see it very well but I recognise it

4 to be my husband's signature.

5 Q. Your husband's signature. Thank you. The next document

6 --

7 JUDGE McDONALD: Ms. Tadic, that's your husband's

8 signature. Does that exhibit have a number on it? Is

9 that 109?

10 A. No. There should be a number but you can't see the

11 exact number here. It is a poor photocopy.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: Turn over on the back of it, Ms. Tadic.

13 A. Yes, you're right.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: That's 109?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. That's your husband's

17 signature then on that document?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you.

20 MR. VUJIN: The document that you're looking at now, is that

21 decision to set up the local committee of the Red Cross

22 in Kozarac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When was this decision passed?

25 A. On 11th November 1992.

1 Q. What does the decision say?

2 A. That the members of the local committee of the Red Cross

3 are appointed.

4 Q. Is your husband there?

5 A. Yes, under number 2.

6 Q. As the member of the committee?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me what your husband,

9 Mr. Tadic, did within his activities as secretary of the

10 local community?

11 A. As secretary of the local community his duty was to

12 bring life back to Kozarac to the extent possible, to

13 repair the waterworks, the sewage system, the post

14 office, the medical centre, to bring a doctor there, to

15 help people who stayed on, to receive food through the

16 Red Cross. That was it.

17 Q. During the conflict was the medical centre in Kozarac

18 damaged?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is the building still there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did your husband succeed in restoring the medical

23 centre?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did the health service start working after that

1 regularly? Do you remember a doctor?

2 A. Doctor Lazman, yes.

3 Q. Thank you. As a Red Cross activist and secretary of the

4 local community did Mr. Tadic have the obligation to take

5 care of the population that returned to Kozarac?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In what way and what did he organise?

8 A. For example, he organised for them to have a Red Cross

9 office there, to receive food, and these people,

10 refugees, who came from Velika Kladusa, it was his duty

11 to help them, to help them in resolving certain

12 questions in that commune.

13 Q. So did Dusko Tadic decide who would be coming in?

14 A. No. It was people who came there collectively. He was

15 supposed to take care of them.

16 Q. To take care of them once they were there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just one more document from this part of the testimony.

19 Could we submit another document, please?

20 Ms. Tadic, please have a look at the signature on

21 the page before the last, at the very end.

22 A. Just a minute, please.

23 Q. You have three signatures there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you read the text?

1 A. No, just the handwriting. On the day of 25th November

2 1992 humanitarian aid was distributed according to the

3 document of November 1992, 356 persons. Signatures: 1,

4 Jokovic Daniella; 2, Chedo; 3, Tadic Dusko.

5 Q. The third signature is that of your husband?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. To go back now to the time before the

8 conflict that broke out in that territory, did your

9 husband take part in a delegation of the people of

10 Kozarac, and if you know about this, what kind of a

11 delegation was that? Where did they go and what did

12 they do?

13 A. Yes. I wasn't present. I was in Banja Luka then, but

14 he told me about it. He went with a committee on behalf

15 of the local community of Kozarac to Prijedor. It

16 mostly consisted of intellectuals from Kozarac.

17 Q. Of what nationality?

18 A. Mostly Muslim.

19 Q. During your stay in --

20 JUDGE McDONALD: Excuse me.

21 MR. NIEMANN: I don't want to interrupt the Defence all the

22 time. We have heard this evidence from Mr. Tadic. Are

23 we really going to be assisted by having repeated what

24 he told her and she comes here and tells us again

25 something which he has already told us?

1 JUDGE McDONALD: I'll overrule your objection, Mr. Niemann.

2 You may proceed, Mr. Vujin.

3 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honour. Ms. Tadic, after the

4 conflict, when Mr. Dusko Tadic managed to join the

5 traffic police as a reserve policeman, you went back to

6 Prijedor?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm interested in knowing whether at that time in

9 Prijedor there were still some Muslims who were living

10 there amongst the population?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you and your husband communicate with some of them?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you explain that?

15 A. We continued being friends with them, as we were until

16 then.

17 Q. Did you take medicine to some of them?

18 A. I can't remember. I can't remember.

19 Q. You can't remember. Yes. Thank you. These contacts,

20 were they normal, just like before the fighting?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you have any unpleasant situations with the

23 authorities of Republika Srpska or the authorities at

24 that time?

25 A. At that time let me tell you it was risky, frankly

1 speaking.

2 Q. Did you get an apartment in Prijedor in that period or

3 in the following period?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you live in that apartment and for how long?

6 A. We lived there for about a year.

7 Q. And what happened then?

8 A. Then we were moved out of that apartment.

9 Q. Moved out? Could you explain that?

10 A. That means that we were evicted, that we were thrown out

11 of it.

12 Q. Who threw you out of it?

13 A. The authorities in Prijedor at that time.

14 Q. Why? Can you tell us?

15 A. Because my husband was not on the front. We couldn't

16 keep it. Then it's only the warriors and people wounded

17 in the war who obtained apartments.

18 Q. So that is why you were there?

19 A. Yes, and the situation is the same now.

20 Q. Where did you go then?

21 A. Then we went to a private apartment.

22 Q. A private apartment?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did your husband ever receive any kind of reward for his

25 work from the Serb authorities?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can one speak of the attitude of the authorities towards

3 you as a good attitude or were you persecuted in a way?

4 A. This was a kind of persecution after all.

5 Q. Let us go back a bit to your life and to what you know

6 about your husband in terms of obligations. Do you know

7 whether after he did his military service, whether your

8 husband ever went to any military exercises?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know how many mobilisations there were before the

11 conflict and during and in the immediate aftermath?

12 A. I didn't understand your question.

13 Q. Do you know how many times there were a mobilisation in

14 that area?

15 A. You mean before the fighting in Kozarac? What are you

16 referring to?

17 Q. Before the fighting, after the fighting?

18 A. There was general mobilisation.

19 Q. Yes. I know that. The first time?

20 A. The first time in May 1992 when everybody had to

21 respond.

22 Q. And after that?

23 A. This was still in force.

24 Q. This was still in force?

25 A. Absolutely.

1 Q. Did your husband respond to this mobilisation?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In which way did he manage not to respond the first

4 time?

5 A. The first time simply because he was not listed in their

6 records, so they didn't pick him up, and the second time

7 he avoided that because he was in the traffic police.

8 Q. Was this an award or through the help of relatives?

9 A. No, it wasn't an award. It was done through various

10 connections, as people say in our country.

11 Q. Who was this connection?

12 A. Radovan Vokic, a relative of his.

13 Q. Do you know whether your husband was arrested because he

14 didn't respond to mobilisation?

15 A. Yes, he was arrested on two occasions. I was present.

16 Q. You were present?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I would also like to submit the things we mentioned

19 yesterday. This is from the office of the Public

20 Prosecutor and the court in relation to criminal

21 proceedings instituted against Dusko Tadic. Are you

22 aware of the fact that criminal proceedings have been

23 instituted against your husband before a military court?

24 A. Yes, I know that.

25 Q. This document, is that what it shows?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Ms. Tadic, during your life with Mr. Dusko

3 Tadic did you try to go abroad?

4 A. Yes, many times.

5 Q. For what reasons?

6 A. For purely economic reasons. At the beginning they were

7 purely economic reasons.

8 Q. After the conflict when did you go to Germany?

9 A. On 1st August 1993.

10 Q. Why did you go?

11 A. We couldn't go on there any more. We went to Germany

12 because my husband wasn't in the army. I had nothing to

13 expect there.

14 Q. Your husband was persecuted. You were persecuted?

15 A. My husband was supposed to go into the army, so I would

16 have some kind of status in Republika Srpska, and he

17 didn't, so that was that.

18 Q. In the period in Banja Luka did he manage to find a job

19 as refugee?

20 A. No, not in Banja Luka because there were mobilisation.

21 I had to report to my own duty.

22 Q. During your stay in Germany did you also decide to go

23 abroad?

24 A. Yes. We talked about that. We tried.

25 Q. Did you get documents for going to Canada?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is this the document that you obtained in Germany in the

3 intention of going to Canada?

4 A. Yes, that is it.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 JUDGE McDONALD: Excuse me, Mr. Vujin. If you are going to

7 another area of questioning, perhaps now is a good time

8 to take a recess. Before we do that, you have had

9 marked defence exhibits 108, 109, 110, 111, 112 and now

10 113. Do you wish to admit those -- wish to have those

11 admitted?

12 MR. VUJIN: Yes, the Defence would tender them as evidence.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: Any objection?

14 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

15 JUDGE McDONALD: They will be admitted and the exhibits

16 that were marked yesterday for the Defence, I presume

17 there is no objection. If they are without objection,

18 they are also admitted.

19 MR. VUJIN: Thank you.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: We will stand in recess until 4.20.

21 (4.05 pm)

22 (Short break)

23 (4.20 pm)

24 (Witness re-enters court)

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin?

1 MR. VUJIN: Thank you, your Honour. Ms. Tadic, I should

2 like now to go on to another area, the last one, but

3 before I do that, let us return for a moment to the

4 activities of your husband regarding the revival of life

5 and work in Kozarac linked to the medical centre. You

6 said that you know that the centre was damaged, but the

7 building as such still stood. When you are saying it

8 was damaged, do you mean that all the medical equipment

9 was taken away?

10 A. Everything.

11 Q. Do you know where it was taken?

12 A. To the medical centre in Prijedor.

13 Q. How do you know?

14 A. Because at that time he was working at the medical

15 centre in Prijedor.

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. All our things were there.

18 Q. Did your husband at that time come to intervene? You

19 saw the letter?

20 A. To talk to the general manager of the medical centre in

21 Prijedor.

22 Q. Did he come on several occasions?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did he have any difficulties?

25 A. Of course he had difficulties. They were never restored

1 to Kozarac.

2 Q. So they went on using that equipment?

3 A. Yes. It went elsewhere. It was taken away.

4 Q. But did he manage to get something, some of the basic

5 instruments?

6 A. A minimum of things, yes.

7 Q. A moment ago we were talking about Muslim families that

8 stayed on in Prijedor, and that you kept in touch with

9 them. You couldn't remember taking medicines to

10 anyone. If the Trial Chamber permits me: Mejobez Lugic

11 and his wife, who was disabled; Elvis with a five-member

12 family. Do you know these names, these families?

13 A. Yes. May I just add, if any one of these people

14 contacted me and if I was able to help, I would, and I

15 considered that normal.

16 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. The interpreter would like to

17 ask that the questioning slow down a bit.

18 MR. VUJIN: Do you know whether your husband provided

19 permits for movement for these families?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What does that mean? Were they able to move around

22 freely? Were special permits required or were these

23 granted?

24 JUDGE McDONALD: I hear there is a problem in the

25 interpretation booth.

1 MR. VUJIN: It's very fast. I will slow down. Sorry.

2 A. Could you please repeat your question?

3 Q. Yes. At that time in Prijedor and in the surroundings

4 was movement allowed freely or were special permits

5 required from the competent municipal authorities for

6 movement of people and things?

7 A. Yes. Certain permits were required. People who fled

8 from Kozarac, if they didn't have the necessary

9 documents they needed new certificates with the help of

10 which they could be identified, because raids were

11 frequent in town.

12 Q. Did Dusko Tadic help these two families to get those

13 documents?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I should like to tender for identification one such

16 certificate, which has to do with the movement of Dusko

17 Tadic, and please I would like you to identify it. Were

18 those documents of this kind?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is this a certificate on the basis of which your husband

21 could take some things out?

22 A. Yes, only on a basis of a certificate of this kind could

23 anything be moved out.

24 Q. Thank you. When we were talking about relationships

25 before the outbreak of the conflict in Kozarac itself,

1 relationships with your neighbours, who were

2 predominantly Muslim -- let me mention just a few names

3 of those neighbours: Kahrimanovic, Adem; Beslagic; Arna-

4 autovic, Shefik. Then there was a neighbour Peter

5 Grahovac and some others. They were all elderly people,

6 were they not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What were the relations between Dusko Tadic and them?

9 Were the relations normal or were they close friends?

10 A. With some of them he was friends and with others he had

11 good neighbourly relations.

12 Q. With Shefik Arnautovic he was a friend, and the others

13 were just neighbours?

14 A. Yes, because after all he was younger than they, much

15 younger.

16 Q. Thank you. I should now like to refer to your husband's

17 interests. You knew each other since you were 15?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did he have a hobby and what was his hobby?

20 A. Yes, sports and painting, and we also did some

21 mountaineering together.

22 Q. Did you accompany him in those activities?

23 A. Yes. I went for training with him. We went

24 mountaineering. I didn't paint because I had absolutely

25 no talent.

1 Q. I wish to show you the newest painting your husband

2 did. Do you recognise it? Please place it on the

3 ELMO. This is the original?

4 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, the last exhibit, it's marked

5 114. The date on that, is that June 15th or 17th? The

6 English says June 16th. I think we received one in

7 evidence during trial that was June 15th. Is this 15th

8 or 17th, not that it makes a difference, I suppose? If

9 you look at the original, I don't know whether it was

10 meant to be a 15 or 17 --

11 MR. VUJIN: I'm looking.

12 JUDGE McDONALD: Any objection?

13 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, no objection.

14 JUDGE McDONALD: Defence 114 then is admitted.

15 MR. VUJIN: You recognise who is on the painting?

16 A. Yes, my daughter Alexandra.

17 Q. Did your husband want to transform this hobby into an

18 occupation?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In what way did he try to do that?

21 A. The plan was if we had sufficient means of livelihood,

22 then he would devote his full-time to his hobby.

23 Q. Did your husband drink at all?

24 A. No, he was an athlete.

25 Q. So he never drank alcohol?

1 A. No. On some occasions a glass or two, but in principle

2 no.

3 Q. Did he have any other hobbies, some other sports

4 activities in addition to karate? Did he ride a bicycle

5 or a motorbike? Did he ever use a motorbike?

6 A. No, never.

7 Q. Can he ride a motorbike?

8 A. I think he can't.

9 Q. Finally, in your opinion, after everything that has

10 happened, could your husband, Mr. Dusko Tadic, return to

11 Kozarac, Prijedor and Banja Luka?

12 A. I think not.

13 Q. Why not?

14 A. Because he's considered a deserter. He didn't respond

15 to his military call-up.

16 Q. Thank you, Ms. Tadic.

17 JUDGE McDONALD: Any cross, Mr. ..

18 MR. KEEGAN: No, your Honour.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. Ms. Tadic, you are excused

20 permanently. Thank you for coming again.

21 A. Thank you.

22 (Witness withdrew from court)

23 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, would you call your next

24 witness, please?

25 MR. VUJIN: Yes, your Honour. Defence counsel calls Ms.

1 Ljubica Metselaar, who will be examined by

2 Mr. Livingston.

3 Ms. Ljubica Metselaar (sworn)

4 Examined by Mr. Livingston

5 JUDGE McDONALD: Ms. Metselaar, would you please take the

6 oath that is being given to you?

7 A. It's in Yugoslavian. Should I read it in Yugoslavian?

8 JUDGE McDONALD: You should have your choice. There should

9 be an English version. You should read either.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you. You may be seated.

11 MR. LIVINGSTON: Ms. Metselaar, just before we start your

12 evidence properly, can I just remind you that although

13 you and I are going to speak to each other in English?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. For the sake of others, including Mr. Tadic, your

16 evidence will be translated?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So take it slowly, otherwise we will cause a panic up in

19 the translation room?

20 A. Okay. I will.

21 Q. Is your full name Ljubica Metselaar?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And just so the record is correct, that's spelt

24 M-E-T-S-E-L-A-A-R?

25 A. Correct.

1 Q. And I think that you live in Rhenen in Holland; is that

2 right?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Which is about 100 kms south of here?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. You're a Serb?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You were born in Bosnia in the town of Bosanski Brod; is

9 that right?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Which is just on the Serbian side of the Sava River?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. I think it's also right that when you were eight months

14 old your parents left Bosanski Brod and went to

15 Belgrade?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. It was there that you were brought up and went to

18 school?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. You then left Yugoslavia I think in 1990-1991 and you

21 went initially to England, and after you had met your

22 husband to be, you came to Holland; is that right?

23 A. Absolutely correct.

24 Q. You married him in 1972?

25 A. That is correct.

1 Q. And you've been here ever since?

2 A. That's also correct.

3 Q. So as far as Mr. Tadic is concerned, is it correct that

4 you never met him before he arrived in The Hague?

5 A. No, I never knew him before.

6 Q. Although I think you had heard of him through friends of

7 yours in Germany?

8 A. My relative, my family in Germany. I heard when he was

9 arrested in Germany.

10 Q. So your first contact with him was when you visited him

11 in prison?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Why were you interested in doing that?

14 A. You see, at the time it was still a war in Yugoslavia.

15 He was the one, the first one who was arrested.

16 Q. Can I just interrupt. I think to put a timescale on it,

17 because I think the court may want that?

18 A. That was in 1994, about February 1994.

19 Q. Well, that was, I think, when he was arrested?

20 A. Yes, when he was arrested.

21 Q. Right.

22 A. And I heard about it and then -- since then, better to

23 say, started a propaganda against him all over the

24 world. Everybody accused him of everything. Everybody

25 hang him already without any proof, without any trial,

1 without anything.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. So when he was brought to Holland and to the Hague, I

4 heard about it and I heard about a terrible condition

5 that he's in, and then I got the thought he's my Serb.

6 He's my Bosnia. He must be awfully lonely with the

7 public opinion so against him, with the awful conditions

8 that he was brought into, and he has nobody to talk to.

9 He has no family. He has no relatives. He has no

10 friends here.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. He must be suffering awfully. So I decided I will go

13 there and I'll see for myself what kind of a man he is.

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. And I'll see if I can help him in any way just to ease

16 the condition he's in.

17 Q. Yes. So I think you obtained permission to see him from

18 the Tribunal?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you went to see him, I think I'm right in saying,

21 for the first time in September 1995?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. Did you get on when you first met him?

24 A. Yes. From the first time on I found him a very nice

25 man. He was awfully nervous with the first meeting; so

1 did I. So we talked just a little bit and I told him

2 why I came to see him, what was my motivation to see

3 him, and I asked him if he need something, does he need

4 anything that I can buy him and bring him, and he told

5 me that he's not allowed to get any food from outside

6 the prison. What I can bring him, if I want to, it's

7 writing paper, some stamps, some pencils and those

8 things, you know, that he can communicate with his

9 family and write to his family if it is possible.

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. So I done it.

12 Q. We'll come to that a little bit later, Ms. Metselaar,

13 but what did he talk to you about on that first

14 occasion?

15 A. Well, first of all, when I arrived for the first time,

16 he told me: "I don't know if you are going to believe

17 me, but I'm really not guilty of anything". So I told

18 him: "Okay. I didn't come here to judge you. I came

19 just as a friend".

20 Q. What did he talk to you about in relation to his

21 personal life?

22 A. About his personal life, he showed me a picture of his

23 family. That was a picture where his two daughters, his

24 wife and his mother were standing in front of his house,

25 and with tears in his eyes he said: "I don't know if I'm

1 going to see them ever again". It's a very difficult

2 situation. I can't stand a man with tears in his eyes.

3 So I just tried to comfort him at that point, and to

4 tell him: "Maybe it's not so bad as you think. Just

5 wait and see". I told him that he has a very nice

6 family. That's about -- you know, that's about it.

7 Q. That was the first visit, and I think thereafter you

8 started visiting him every fortnight or thereabouts; is

9 that correct?

10 A. That's about, yes.

11 Q. And I think you would on occasions bring him clothes?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Was that ever at his request?

14 A. No, that was not on his request. I told him that I have

15 relatives in Munich, where he was arrested, and he asked

16 me only if I can get in touch with them to contact the

17 person who was responsible for his belongings, you know

18 after he was arrested and his family left Munich, if

19 they can contact him to collect his things and to send

20 it to me, that I will be able to bring it to him. So I

21 done it and I told him on the second time that I visited

22 him that the man didn't take good care of his things.

23 He said that he put them in a basement and he got water

24 in the basement and all the things that he left behind

25 were really ruined. So he was left with nothing. He

1 had nothing to wear.

2 Q. I think it was for that reason that you and others whom

3 you have gathered together have bought him suits and

4 shirts and socks and shoes?

5 A. He has to have something.

6 Q. Some of which, of course, he has worn throughout this

7 trial?

8 A. Probably.

9 Q. Yes. Tell us a little bit about -- you got together a

10 Yugoslav club, I think, as you call it?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. What was that for?

13 A. Well, I was, you know, at that point engaged with the

14 Yugoslavian club in a village nearby, and I told them

15 that I visited Dusko Tadic, that I found him in a rather

16 poor condition, about the clothing and everything, and I

17 told them that it will be very nice if they can, you

18 know, give some money -- to collect some money and to

19 bring it to me and I'll bring it to him.

20 Q. Yes. I think you did that?

21 A. And I done it. That's right.

22 Q. What did he ask you to do with the money?

23 A. When I told him that I brought some money -- it was not

24 a very big amount; I can't remember the exact amount --

25 but he told me: "I don't need anything. Will you please

1 be so kind to find a way if you can send it to my wife

2 and my children? I personally don't need anything".

3 Q. Help us about this, if you will?

4 A. Pardon?

5 Q. Help us about this, if you will?

6 A. Because --

7 Q. Just a moment?

8 A. Sorry.

9 Q. You have seen him now for over two years regularly?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How much does his family mean to him?

12 A. His family means everything to him, absolutely

13 everything. He told me repeatedly on several occasions

14 that he will give his life for them if it is necessary.

15 Q. How does he regard his wife?

16 A. He loves her dearly. He thinks that she is the best

17 friend he ever had.

18 Q. And what about his -- he's got two young daughters, has

19 he not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. One whom we heard from yesterday, who's 17?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The other one is how old?

24 A. She's about 7, 8, I think.

25 Q. And how has it affected him being separated from his

1 wife and his daughters?

2 A. It is very terrible for him.

3 Q. What has he said about it?

4 A. He's suffering very much. Every time he's talking about

5 them he gets tears in his eyes and he's awfully

6 concerned how they managed. It was still a war

7 situation in the beginning when we were -- we met each

8 other, and he was very concerned how they managed in a

9 war situation without him, without any support of him,

10 that he is unable to help them in any way, and maybe

11 they are suffering, maybe they are dying of hunger. He

12 doesn't know anything. The connections were very

13 difficult with Bosnia at that time. That's why he asked

14 me if I can send -- manage to send the money, because

15 there was no -- because of the, you know, boycott of

16 Yugoslavia and Bosnia included there was no bank traffic

17 in between. So it was not so very easy to send it.

18 Q. Now I think also in addition to the regular visits you

19 have made, you have exchanged letters and telephone

20 calls with him?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Is that regular?

23 A. Rather regular, yes.

24 Q. I would like you to help us on this as well. Has he

25 responded to this obvious kindness which you have shown

1 him? How has he responded to that?

2 A. I think he was very pleased with the visit that I made

3 to him. He's very, very caring man. He never failed if

4 I told him just about my life, you know, talking with

5 him, that I have some celebration or that I have

6 something, I get a Christmas card for him, I got a card

7 for the New Year for him, I got a card for my birthday,

8 for the birthday of my husband. The collection I done

9 for him he asked me personally if I will give him the

10 names and addresses of the people who gave the money for

11 him. He sent them a personal card thanking them for,

12 you know, the sacrifice that they made for him. He

13 never failed to show his gratitude, you know, for very

14 small things that you are doing for him.

15 Q. Yes. I think, moving on chronologically, in January

16 1996 his family came here for the first time; is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you were responsible for them while they were here;

20 is that right?

21 A. First time not. Second time.

22 Q. That means putting them up and looking after them?

23 A. Yes, yes, that's right, and I brought them every day to

24 The Hague to visit him. I stayed in The Hague and then

25 take them back home. They were just a guest in my

1 house.

2 Q. Tell us what other things he talks to you about or he

3 has talked to you about over the last couple of years or

4 so?

5 A. What?

6 Q. What other matters has he talked to you about?

7 A. Well, he told me about his trial, his defence.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. He told me all his worries. He told me all his joys.

10 Q. What were his joys?

11 A. Very little, very little, but, you know, for example, he

12 got permission at last to train and got a gym, you know,

13 that he can enter and train, because he is a karate man,

14 and he told me that he's very glad at last he can do

15 something, you know, physically to keep up in a good

16 condition, to keep a good condition.

17 Q. Uh-huh. What else does he do with his time while he is

18 in prison?

19 A. Well, he told me at one point that he started painting

20 again. So I said "again?". "Yes," he said, "again",

21 because it runs in his family I learn later on, that

22 they are very good in painting. So I said "okay". He

23 asked me if I can bring him some colours and some

24 brushes and some material, if it's not too much

25 trouble. I told him: "Okay. I'll see what I can do".

1 Q. I think you did that?

2 A. Done it and he started painting.

3 Q. I think you have seen a lot of his pictures and I think

4 a lot of them have been sent to London now?

5 A. Through me.

6 Q. Hopefully to be exhibited somewhere?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. I think there's even one of this Tribunal room, is there

9 not?

10 A. Yes. Yes. It's exactly the Tribunal. I recognise it

11 immediately. It's an awful nice picture, you know, full

12 of colours and nice to look at, and he was rather proud

13 of it.

14 Q. I think it has their Honours in a featured position; is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right. That's right.

17 Q. So he's a good artist, is he?

18 A. Well, I'm not very good in painting, you know. I can't

19 speak about that, but everybody who does know something

20 about, they give a very, very nice opinion about. I'm

21 really touched with his paintings, you know, with how he

22 presented, you know, parts of his life in prison, but I

23 can't say that they're perfect or something like that.

24 Somebody else done that and they are really very good.

25 Q. Now you have, I know, had quite a bit of contact with

1 his wife and family; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. How often have you seen them?

4 A. Whenever they are in Holland I saw them. I keep in

5 touch, you know, with them by telephone. I keep in

6 touch writing to each other. So ..

7 Q. Now I would like you to tell us from an independent

8 source how is his predicament affecting Mira and his

9 daughters?

10 A. It was awful difficult time for them.

11 Q. Tell us about that?

12 A. As I said, it was still a wartime in Yugoslavia. She

13 was left with two young children, a woman alone in a war

14 situation, you know, when it's panicking all over

15 around, people moving from the houses. Their house was

16 ruined, nothing left to live in. They were just

17 fugitives somewhere else, living on very, very poor aid

18 that they got as fugitives. It was awful difficult

19 time.

20 Q. How is it now?

21 A. It's getting a little bit better.

22 Q. Yes. I meant how is it for the family in terms of him

23 not being with them?

24 A. Oh, they're missing him awfully. He's missing a lot of

25 the parts of the lives of his children, because they are

1 growing up and he would never know what happened and how

2 they reacted in one part of their lives, if you know

3 what I mean. He can't -- he's, you know, his thread was

4 just broken and he is picking up pieces any time they

5 come to visit him but a lot of that he can't see. They

6 are suffering on one side and he's suffering on the

7 other. He's imprisoned. They are locked up. They

8 can't go on with their lives so easily being a woman,

9 the wife and daughters of Dusko Tadic.

10 Q. What about Valentina particularly? How has his

11 imprisonment affected her?

12 A. Valentina is in a very, very difficult age. She is old

13 enough to understand a lot of things, not old to be able

14 to deal with a lot of things. She heard about awful

15 things said about her father. She's suffering deeply.

16 The first time when she came to Holland she didn't want

17 to talk about it. She didn't want to talk about her

18 feelings. She was not able to express them. The second

19 time when she was in my home I tried to speak with her,

20 you know, just to ease up, just to open herself, to be

21 able to talk about, and now she's very comfortable with

22 me, so she's talking about her feelings, expressing how

23 much she is missing her father, because, as I understand

24 from her saying and from his saying, they were very,

25 very good friends, not daughter and father. They went

1 out together. He even interested -- got her interested

2 in karate. They talk about everything, just like two

3 friends. So she's missing him awfully. The younger one

4 is still young. She talks about father. She wants to

5 have him at home, but she doesn't have that deepness, if

6 you know what I mean, of the feelings.

7 Q. Now I want you to help us about one other matter, if you

8 can, please?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have you ever discussed with him his general feeling

11 about the war in Bosnia?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. What is his attitude to it?

14 A. Well, because --

15 Q. Presently?

16 A. Because he's Bosnia -- you see, I left Bosnia when I was

17 very young. I grew up in Serbia. It's not much

18 difference, but still I wanted to ask him some things

19 about his opinion about, and he told me that it is

20 absolutely madness what happened in Bosnia, that it

21 should never, never take place. He grew in Bosnia among

22 the Serbian as well as the Croats as well as the

23 Muslims. In a time when he was growing up there was no

24 difference in between those three groups. We were all

25 Bosnians and that's true. I know that. Suddenly it's

1 some kind of madness that come into the people that they

2 can't stand each other any more. He was awfully sad

3 that it happened as it happened.

4 Q. Has he discussed it with you, did he do anything when he

5 was in Bosnia to alleviate that sadness?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did he do?

8 A. He told me that -- well, he helped some people, because

9 he was posted of the certain post as a policeman, and he

10 was engaged also with distributing of humanitarian aid,

11 and he said -- you see, being Bosnia, as I am, and

12 feeling Bosnia, as I am, I distributed that aid without

13 absolutely any difference in between the groups.

14 Q. Yes. I think that --

15 A. "I gave it to those ones that they needed the most at

16 that point of -- at that moment. They are all the same

17 to me. They are all my friends in some way, being

18 Bosnians. So if they need food, I can't refuse them

19 that. If they need clothes, I can't refuse them".

20 Q. Is he a strong character?

21 A. He's a very strong character, very strong character.

22 Q. How does that show itself?

23 A. You can't turn him around. You can't -- if he has, you

24 know, some point of view that he knows that he's right,

25 you can't make him to change his mind not very easy, if

1 you know what I mean. You have to come with very, very

2 good facts on the table that he will say then: "Okay.

3 I'll think about it. If you're right, I'll tell you".

4 Q. You seem to be saying he is a bit stubborn, frankly?

5 A. Yes, he is stubborn as well, as all Bosnians are, me

6 including.

7 Q. These activities you were talking about with the

8 humanitarian aid, that was assisting the Red Cross, was

9 it?

10 A. Yes, that's Red Cross in Bosnia. That's right.

11 Q. Now I want you to -- you've had the opportunity to

12 assess him in a much more independent way than perhaps

13 other witnesses who have given evidence today and

14 yesterday?

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. What's your assessment of his character?

17 A. Well, in a few words, he is a rather caring, very

18 sensitive man, nice man to talk to, easy talker, good

19 listener, and a very, very, very lovely man to have

20 around.

21 Q. You know, as everybody else in this courtroom knows,

22 even better than me that he has been convicted of some

23 very serious crimes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do those -- are those crimes, as far as you are

1 concerned and in your judgement of him, are they in

2 character or are they out of character for him?

3 A. I think out of character. I can't match those --

4 knowing him, I can't match those two things.

5 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Ms. Metselaar. I don't know

6 whether there will be any other questions for you, but

7 there may be?

8 A. Okay. Thank you.

9 MR. NIEMANN: No questions.

10 JUDGE McDONALD: Thank you very much, Ms. Metselaar. You

11 are permanently excused. Thank you for coming. You are

12 now excused.

13 A. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Okay.

14 (Witness withdrew from court)

15 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Vujin, would you call your next

16 witness? Is it the Professor, or do we have more?

17 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, we do have the Professor.

18 JUDGE McDONALD: Pardon me?

19 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, we are expecting Professor Zivojin

20 Aleksic to appear before this court, as we proposed in

21 our written submission, but we feel that perhaps it

22 would be best to hear him tomorrow, but the Defence

23 would like, in accordance with your ruling of June 12th,

24 to submit to the court three further written statements

25 in reference to what has been offered by the Prosecution

1 in its written submission. This is evidence regarding

2 the tax dues of the persons referred to in the written

3 submission of the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE McDONALD: You say tax dues. I don't really know

5 what they are. You may offer what you wish and then

6 I'll rule on it after hearing the position of the

7 Prosecutor, but you did --

8 MR. VUJIN: (Not translated).

9 JUDGE McDONALD: You did hear the statement that I made

10 when we began this proceedings and that is although

11 there is mention of loss and a particular specific

12 amount in the statements, the Trial Chamber is not

13 concerned really with the exact dollar amount of the

14 loss or any dollar amount. What we're concerned about

15 is whether there is loss. So if that's what you're

16 attempting to rebut, you, of course, may do so, but I

17 don't think you should have much concern about the

18 weight that will be given to that particular portion of

19 the impact statements that we received, but why don't

20 you have marked -- would you please, usher, take those

21 and let's have them marked and then let's see what they

22 are.

23 MR. VUJIN: If I may be permitted, I listened carefully to

24 the statements of the Trial Chamber yesterday. We are

25 not insisting on these sums. We just wish the Trial

1 Chamber to have before it authentic documents indicating

2 the kind of affairs these persons engaged in, the

3 persons who claim damages, and whether they could have

4 had such a degree of losses. We are not entering into

5 the actual figures, but simply we wish you to have the

6 ability to review these persons' capacity to acquire

7 such high amounts of property and to suffer such high

8 losses.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: Mr. Niemann, you have what has been marked

10 for identification purposes as defence 116, 117 and

11 118. Have you had an opportunity to examine these and

12 can you respond as to whether you have an objection me.

13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, I'm in a position to

14 respond, and I do have those exhibits before me. We

15 object to them, firstly, on the grounds that they are

16 irrelevant. How a person organises their tax affairs

17 and what position exists between them and the Tax

18 Commissioner, whoever is responsible for Internal

19 Revenue, can be totally different to what people's

20 assets are and how those assets are held. In my

21 submission this goes nowhere in assisting the Tribunal

22 in any way in determining anything other than it's an

23 attempt, in my submission -- other than it could be an

24 attempt, in my submission, to somehow suggest that these

25 people either were not paying their taxes and,

1 therefore, are of some way bad character. If that's the

2 basis on which it's put, then we object to it on that

3 basis as well, but on the other basis, we submit that

4 it's irrelevant.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: I'll overrule your objection. They will

6 be admitted. Defence exhibits 116, 117 and 118 are

7 admitted and will be given the appropriate weight.

8 Mr. Vujin do you have anything additional other

9 than Professor Aleksic?

10 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, at this point in time the Defence

11 has nothing more to say except to propose that we begin

12 tomorrow with Professor Aleksic.

13 JUDGE McDONALD: How long do you think you will need to

14 elicit Professor Aleksic's testimony?

15 A. You see, it's rather difficult to tell, because

16 professors tend to speak at some length, but I think one

17 to one and a half hours should be sufficient, or two

18 academic hours. An hour, I think, will be enough

19 probably.

20 JUDGE McDONALD: The Prosecution has indicated that they

21 will need approximately two hours for their oral

22 submissions on appropriate sentence. How many time do

23 you think that you will need.

24 MR. VUJIN: The defence --

25 JUDGE McDONALD: Maybe Mr. Niemann wants to correct me.

1 MR. NIEMANN: I rise to say I did indicate that but I

2 suspect it will be something lessor, shorter than that.

3 Probably more like an hour.

4 JUDGE McDONALD: Very good. Mr. Vujin, how long would you

5 need?

6 MR. VUJIN: I think that we, too, could reduce this to two,

7 two and a half hours in all for the statement of the

8 whole defence team.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: Reduce it from what?

10 MR. VUJIN: To two hours. Two, two and a half.

11 JUDGE McDONALD: I was really determining we have tomorrow

12 afternoon and then of course we have Thursday afternoon

13 and then we will hear from Dr Nedopil on Friday. So we

14 have enough time to complete, Mr. Niemann, using

15 Wednesday afternoon, Thursday afternoon. Friday we will

16 have the initial appearance at 10 o'clock and so I

17 imagine we will not begin until 11 o'clock, but even

18 starting at 11 o'clock on Friday, I'm positive we will

19 have enough time to complete.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

21 JUDGE McDONALD: Okay. So we will adjourn until --

22 JUDGE STEPHEN: Just to understand these documents that you

23 have just submitted, I notice that one of them relates

24 to 1990 and that's the second one you submitted, without

25 naming names, and it refers to the exchange rate of a

1 Dinar at that time as being 7 Dinars to the

2 Deutsch Mark. The income there is shown as 25,000

3 Dinars. Then in the year before it is shown as 3

4 million and a few hundred thousand Dinars. Was the

5 exchange rate very different in 1989 than it was in

6 1990.

7 MR. VUJIN: Yes, your Honour, Judge Stephen. It was

8 substantially different. The exchange rate for the

9 Dinar, it was devalued. A certain number of zeros were

10 taken off. In relation to the Deutsch Mark, the

11 exchange rate changed, too.

12 JUDGE STEPHEN: So there wasn't equation of continuing

13 inflation, but rather the contrary; the Dinar became --

14 was re-organised and became very much more valuable in

15 1990, did it, the new Dinar?

16 MR. VUJIN: Yes, you are right. Before that there was

17 soaring inflation, and then in 1990 it was halted and

18 the inflation rate was fixed to the Deutsch Mark 1:7 and

19 it was stable for a time.

20 JUDGE STEPHEN: Then in subsequent years, 1993 and 1994, it

21 again soared, didn't it, as far as inflation?

22 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, one can't even talk about the value

23 of the Dinar. It was impossible to follow it. At the

24 time the conflict broke out in the territory of the

25 former Yugoslavia, the Dinar had one value at 9 o'clock

1 in the morning and a different one at 1.00 pm. That was

2 our tragedy.

3 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

4 MR. VUJIN: Thank you.

5 JUDGE McDONALD: Yes, Mr. Keegan?

6 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, the one remaining issue was the

7 complete psychiatric report and whether it was going to

8 be received.

9 JUDGE McDONALD: We have received the psychiatric report.

10 What exhibit is that, Mr. Bos? Is that an exhibit or was

11 that just provided to us? Have you had an opportunity

12 to examine the translation of the entire report of

13 Dr Nedopil?

14 MR. VUJIN: Your Honour, I received this copy an hour ago

15 from Mr. Keegan in English and I really had no time to

16 compare. I have no doubts regarding the translation,

17 but I would like to have the opportunity until tomorrow

18 to make a comparison.

19 JUDGE McDONALD: That's acceptable. We will then hear from

20 you tomorrow at 2.30 regarding that report, and that

21 should be admitted into evidence if he is going to speak

22 orally on Friday. We will adjourn then until 2.30

23 tomorrow.

24 (5.20 pm)

25 (Hearing adjourned until 2.30 pm tomorrow)