Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                          Friday, 14 September 2007

 2                          [Status Conference]

 3                          [Open session]

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 2.33 p.m.

 6            JUDGE PROST:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 7            Madam Registrar, can you call the case, please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.

 9            This is case number IT-05-88/2-PT, the Prosecutor versus Zdravko

10    Tolimir.

11            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12            Mr. Tolimir, I hope that you are hearing me in a language that you

13    can understand, you're receiving interpretation.  If, at any point in

14    time, you're not receiving interpretation, please let me know immediately.

15            Thank you.

16            Good afternoon.  For the appearances, I note, for the Prosecution,

17    Peter McCloskey, Nelson Thayer, and case manager Janet Stewart.

18            And for Mr. Tolimir, I note that you are present and without

19    counsel by virtue of your election for self-representation.

20            Before we begin with the items on the agenda for the Status

21    Conference itself, I have a preliminary matter which I want to address.

22            I'm informed that, Mr. Tolimir, that you have made a submission

23    earlier this week.  The date on it appears to be the 7th of September.

24    And I understand that you wish for this document to be filed as a public

25    document.

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 1            In paragraph 5, I believe, of that submission, the name of a staff

 2    member has been mentioned, the first and last name, and I understand it's

 3    been explained to you, Mr. Tolimir, that such information should not be

 4    included in a public document.  Therefore, to ensure that your submission

 5    can be filed publicly, in accordance with your wishes, I am ordering the

 6    redaction of two words in paragraph 5; namely, the first and last name of

 7    the UN staff member.  And with that single redaction, then the entire

 8    document will be accepted as a public filing.

 9            Okay.  Now we can proceed.  We are here.  There were initial and

10    further appearances in this matter on the 4th of June and 3rd of July,

11    respectively, and this is the first Status Conference to be held in the

12    present case.

13            And pursuant to Rule 65 bis (A), as you all may be aware, the

14    purpose of the conference is to facilitate exchanges between the parties,

15    for ensuring an expeditious preparation for trial, and to review the

16    status of the case and allow you, Mr. Tolimir, to raise any issues that

17    you wish to bring to my attention.

18            And in that regard, Mr. Tolimir, I have received your submission

19    of the 4th of September in which you outlined certain issues that you

20    wanted to have on the agenda at the Status Conference, and I can assure

21    you that we will get to those particular issues in due course.  I've taken

22    note of them, and they are included.

23            I assume, Mr. McCloskey, that you had regard to that submission by

24    Mr. Tolimir.

25            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I have.

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 1            JUDGE PROST:  Before we do that, though, Mr. Tolimir, I would like

 2    to have a discussion with you initially about the decision that you have

 3    made to represent yourself in these proceedings because, obviously, it is

 4    an extremely serious matter.

 5            I've taken note of the comments that you've made in your written

 6    filings, in particular your filing of August 10th, where you indicated

 7    very clearly you wished to defend yourself in person.  And I also note

 8    that in response to that filing, the Registry notified the Chamber and the

 9    parties of your election to conduct your own defence pursuant to Rule 45

10    (F) of the Rules, and it's on this basis that the representation by duty

11    counsel, Mr. Sahota, has been terminated.

12            But to begin with, Mr. Tolimir, I want to satisfy myself that you

13    fully understand the legal principles that relate to self-representation.

14            Under the Statute of this Tribunal, as interpreted by various

15    Chambers decisions, there is a presumptive right to self-representation on

16    the part of an accused, and that is what you have elected.  And this Trial

17    Chamber certainly considers that right to be a fundamental one and will

18    govern itself accordingly at this stage.

19            But at the same time, I want to make you aware that this right is

20    not an absolute one.  Even if you have expressed a clear desire to

21    represent yourself, the Trial Chamber always maintains the responsibility

22    to ensure a fair and expeditious trial, as set out in Article 20 and 21 of

23    the Statute, and this is a continuing obligation.  It runs through the

24    pre-trial stage and through the trial stage.  And as a result, at any

25    point in these proceedings, in the interests of justice and in accordance

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 1    with the right to a fair trial, the Chamber may decide that we require the

 2    imposition of counsel or other similar measures.

 3            I am not suggesting that will be the case here.  I'm not

 4    pre-judging that issue, but I simply want you to be aware that the Chamber

 5    is to remain vigilant about this issue and maintains the discretion in

 6    this respect to ensure a fair trial.

 7            Do you understand that discretion, Mr. Tolimir?  Do you have any

 8    comments on that?  I take that to be "no" at this stage.  Is that the

 9    case, Mr. Tolimir?  You have nothing to add on that issue at this time?

10            Okay.  So with this in mind, Mr. Tolimir, I want to explore a bit

11    with you that you fully understand the consequences of the election that

12    you've made for self-representation, and this is based primarily on some

13    of the filings that you've made that have raised some red flags, if you

14    will, for me, in respect to your decision.

15            First of all, there's no need to remind you that we're dealing

16    with an extremely complex and serious case.  There are numerous alleged

17    crimes, including the most serious crime of genocide.  And in that

18    context, I think it's very important that we're very clear on the

19    ramifications of self-representation.

20            So, first of all, I'm concerned, from your most recent filing --

21    or not now your most recent, but your previously filing of 4th of

22    September, where you put forward issues for the Status Conference, and you

23    made the statement that you wanted your legal adviser, Mr. Mrkic, to come

24    over from Serbia and secure all the necessary documents, to come and

25    appear before this Chamber.  That is not the nature of

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 1    self-representation, Mr. Tolimir.

 2            As you have noted yourself, the Tribunal Statute, Article 21(4)(d)

 3    states that an accused has the right to defend himself in person or

 4    through legal assistance of his choosing.  This phrase, by its plain

 5    meaning, presents two options, Mr. Tolimir:  Self-representation or

 6    representation through legal assistance.

 7            And if there was any doubt on the point, earlier this week, the

 8    Appeals Chamber in the Krajisnik case issued a decision related to

 9    self-representation, and in it they state very clearly that the two

10    options that I've just read out in Article 21(4)(d) stand in binary

11    opposition.  An accused who chooses to self-represent is not entitled to

12    legal assistance.  Thus, you may choose one or the other, but not both.

13            Therefore, what I want to discuss with you and make sure you

14    understand is that in making the election to defend yourself, you're

15    telling me and you're telling the Trial Chamber that you do not wish to be

16    represented by counsel, that you do not need the legal services of

17    Mr. Mrkic or any other lawyer, that you wish to act as your own counsel.

18            You're saying that you wish to take on the burden yourself of

19    preparing and presenting your case, the responsibility for filing written

20    submissions in accordance with the Rules and practice directions, the

21    responsibility to present your oral submissions yourself, to examine and

22    cross-examine witnesses at the trial phase, to make oral and written

23    arguments.  All of these would be your responsibility.

24            There is certainly some possibilities of assistance in some

25    respects, but the responsibility for all of these matters, Mr. Tolimir, in

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 1    a self-representation situation rests with you, and I want you to be fully

 2    aware and understand that.

 3            Do you understand that, Mr. Tolimir, and do you have any comments

 4    that you want to make, particularly in light of the Appeals Chamber's

 5    recent decision on this issue?

 6            Do you understand the nature of self-representation and that it

 7    does preclude what you seem to have requested in previous occasions, which

 8    is the assistance of legal counsel?

 9            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Madam President, ladies and

10    gentlemen, I'd like to say good afternoon and to say that I am fully

11    conscious of my responsibilities, and I will perform those

12    responsibilities myself.  I have the right to a legal adviser who will

13    advise me on procedural issues, and I will meet all the other

14    responsibilities I have myself.

15            JUDGE PROST:  Okay.  If I can just explore this just a little

16    further, Mr. Tolimir.  When we've met on previous occasions, you've told

17    me that you do need the assistance of a lawyer in many respects.  You

18    spoke about needing to understand the full meaning of the procedure, from

19    a legal point of view.  You spoke of:  "Only with permanent counsel can I

20    discuss the indictment."  "I'm not in a position to present legal

21    submissions because I'm not legally represented."

22            So I take it what you're saying, though, is that you now have

23    changed that position and you feel that you are comfortable and competent

24    to present written/oral submissions without legal representation.  Is that

25    the case, Mr. Tolimir?

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 1            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I have already said that I

 2    will meet all my own responsibilities myself, and my legal adviser is

 3    somebody that I can consult on legal issues.  And I think we can discuss

 4    that issue when we discuss my submission and my requests with respect to

 5    the Status Conference.

 6            I did not elect to defend myself because I wanted to do so but

 7    because the Registry wanted to impose counsel on me of his choice.

 8            Thank you.

 9            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, I just want to make sure that you've

10    indicated fairly clearly, then, that you have made this choice.  I'm

11    trusting that in doing so, the sole factor here is not simply the issue

12    that arose as to the selection of your counsel, that you have considered

13    all of the ramifications of this decision, that this is solely not a

14    question of the choice of counsel, that you have considered the matter and

15    feel comfortable in proceeding self-represented.

16            Is that the case, Mr. Tolimir?

17            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]  Correct.  Okay.

18            JUDGE PROST:  All right.  Then I will just make you aware, very

19    clearly, that in the course of the proceedings, we're going to come to

20    various issues.  And as a self-represented accused, I'm going to be

21    setting deadlines today, then, for the filing of certain written

22    materials, and I want you to be clear that as you're a self-represented

23    accused, those matters will not remain pending, pending any question of

24    assistance to be provided to you.

25            As a self-represented accused, we're going to be setting those

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 1    deadlines today.  So just so that you're clearly aware of that, we will

 2    proceed on that basis.

 3            The first issue I want to consider with you, Mr. Tolimir, is one

 4    of the issues that you put forward in your filing of the 4th of September.

 5    I'm interpreting your filing on that date as an application for financed

 6    assistance in the preparation of your defence as a self-represented

 7    accused.

 8            I am comforted to see, from the Registry's submission which was

 9    filed on the 13th of September - I understand you have recently received a

10    copy of that - In that submission, the Registry, too, has classified your

11    filing of the 4th of September, as I would have instructed them to do, as

12    an application for financing of your defence.

13            So the first step of that, Mr. Tolimir, is you understand, clearly

14    from your filing, is that that matter needs to be pursued with the

15    Registry.  And, obviously, any issues that arise can ultimately come to

16    the Chamber for consideration, but the initial discussions on financing of

17    any assistance should be done with the Registry.  And they are, as they've

18    indicated, prepared to proceed with that process, taking into account what

19    the Appeals Chamber has just said on the question.

20            I would encourage you, Mr. Tolimir, because there are a number of

21    formalities that have to be met in that process, to cooperate fully, as

22    I'm sure you will, with the Registry in completing the documentation that

23    they may ask you to fulfill in that regard.  And we can take the matter up

24    again, should the need arise, in future Status Conferences.  But for the

25    moment, you can pursue that matter with the Registry.

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 1            Is there anything you wanted to comment, in addition to your

 2    filing, on the question of your application for the financing, in light

 3    that the first step is with the Registry?  Anything else you wish to say

 4    to me on that particular point, Mr. Tolimir?

 5            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6            What I want to say is this:  I want my defence to be financed in

 7    keeping with the rules and regulations and the Statute, the international

 8    statute, just as the other cases are financed with other people

 9    representing themselves.  I'm not asking for any exception to that, just

10    that the same criteria be applied to me.

11            Thank you.

12            JUDGE PROST:  Fine, Mr. Tolimir, and I'm sure that will be the

13    case.  And as indicated, please liaise with the Registry, as I'm sure they

14    will do with you, in pursuit of your application, and I'm sure it will be

15    considered in accordance with the rules in place in the Tribunal.

16            Mr. McCloskey, did you have any comments on that particular issue?

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Madam President.

18            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

19            I'm going to move to a different, though interrelated topic, and

20    it is also an agenda item, Mr. Tolimir, that you put forward, and

21    certainly a matter that I was intending to raise with you, and that is the

22    issue of the communication with you by the Chamber, by the Registry, by

23    the Office of the Prosecutor.

24            I can't over-emphasise, Mr. Tolimir, the importance, since you are

25    self-represented, of you receiving considering reviewing the relevant

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 1    documents in this case.  Obviously, that's fundamental.  However, I'm

 2    informed, and I have read your filings, and it appears you continue to

 3    refuse to accept almost every document that has been served on you.  At

 4    least since your intentions regarding self-representation have become

 5    clear, steps have been taken, and I have been watching that carefully, to

 6    ensure that you receive your documents translated into Serbian, which is

 7    your native language and which you understand. And yet you continue to

 8    refuse to accept these documents, including various orders, the supporting

 9    material for the indictment, decisions, even the decision scheduling the

10    Status Conference itself.

11            I understand as well that, despite your specific request to the

12    Chamber, you refuse to accept the audiotapes of the first two appearances

13    which I had ordered be provided to you.

14            Obviously, this is a situation, Mr. Tolimir, that can't continue.

15    Can you please explain to me why you are refusing to accept these

16    important materials that have been served on you, especially in light of

17    your decision to self-represent?

18            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Madam President, ladies and

19    gentlemen, before we come to the essence of the questions discussed here

20    and the issues raised by the Presiding Judge and by everything, I would

21    like to wish you goodwill from God and Jesus Christ, and that we complete

22    this trial in accordance with God's will.  Praise be the Lord.

23            A prayer follows.  May our souls be saved.  May the souls of the

24    Presiding Judge be saved and all the Trial Chambers and everybody in the

25    Tribunal, and all the people in the Office of the Prosecutor and

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 1    Prosecutors, and the souls of all counsel in the Defence counsel and

 2    others, the secretaries and everybody else, those in the Detention Centre,

 3    those employed in the Detention Centre, and the warden of the Detention

 4    Centre, all the interpreters and translators and everybody attending this

 5    trial via the information media.  May your souls be saved and may God's

 6    will be done, and may we be cleansed of our sins.

 7            Thank you for hearing me and for enabling me to say that before we

 8    begin the trials, and, once again, I appeal to our Lord saviour, God

 9    Almighty, to preserve us and preserve our souls.  You will have my vision

10    of this situation and my request and demand that we all be helped and

11    assisted in our lives by God.

12            I'll now answer the questions that the Presiding Judge has put to

13    me.

14            My communication with this Court, with the Tribunal, with the

15    Secretariat, with the Registrar, is nonexistent.  I have not received any

16    documents since I requested that they be provided to me in my mother

17    tongue, which is Serbian, and in the Cyrillic alphabet, which is in

18    official use in Serbia.  The Constitutions of Serbia and Article 10 of

19    that Constitution provides for the fact that the official language is the

20    Serbian language and that the alphabet is the Cyrillic alphabet.

21            I should like this right to be ensured for me in this

22    International Tribunal, and my country is a recognised member state and it

23    recognises this Tribunal.

24            I would like to draw your attention to the fact that language is a

25    basic characteristic of mankind which enables complex social life and all

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 1    aspects of that life, and I will need to focus all my attention and all my

 2    energy in defending myself from the indictment and charges against me.

 3    And I think that you should enable me to defend myself in the language

 4    that I speak and in the language that I think, because language and

 5    thought are closely connected.  They are intertwined, and enable precise

 6    expression and understanding of concepts, and that, of course, is very

 7    important here at the Tribunal, which is here to make decisions.

 8            I don't think I need stress how important this is in view of the

 9    fact that everybody has that right, except for us Serbs who are being

10    tried here before The Hague Tribunal.  And I wish to stress that of 146

11    accused who have passed through this courtroom, 70 per cent are Serbs,

12    which means three-quarters of us have been denied the right of being tried

13    in the language which we speak, the language which we read and right in;

14    that is to say, in our mother tongue.

15            Now, the other 32 accused do use their own language and their own

16    alphabet.  This is highly indicative if we bear in mind that the Serb

17    language is the oldest language, if we compare the languages of the other

18    accused persons here, because the Cyrillic alphabet and Serb language

19    first came into being in the ninth century, following Chilean Methodius.

20    And the written documents date back many centuries, and one in particular

21    from the 14th century speaks about the importance of this.  The document

22    is under UNESCO protection.

23            I would, therefore, like to ask you and entreat you to understand

24    my position, that the first code according to which people were judged in

25    the 13th century, was Dusan's Code, which was also written in the Cyrillic

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 1    alphabet.  And I think that this Tribunal should respect that fact.  The

 2    Turks tried to destroy the Serbian language and Cyrillic alphabet from

 3    1379 to 1887.  However, during this period of time, we had a man named

 4    Vukaradzic [phoen], who transformed the national language into a literary

 5    language used by all Serb Slav nations.

 6            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, I am going to stop you there because I

 7    want to focus on the issue at hand.  I think I have very clearly your

 8    point with respect to the language issue.

 9            I have listened to you now and I have read your submissions on

10    this matter, your written submissions, and I just want to be very clear.

11    You're not suggesting to me for a moment that you do not read and

12    understand Serbian written in the Latin text.  What you're telling me is

13    that your position is based on the fact that the Cyrillic alphabet is the

14    recognised script in your native country?

15            That is correct, isn't it, Mr. Tolimir?  You do read and

16    understand Serbian in Latin script?

17            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I cannot --

18            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: The microphone is switched

19    off.

20            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I cannot understand the

21    language which exists in the documents submitted to me, nor can I

22    understand documents unless they're in Serbian.  I wanted to go on to

23    elaborate and say what the differences were in the division between the

24    Serb language and the Croatian language, the differences that exist, and

25    this creates difficulties as far as being tried here.

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 1            These languages never became literary languages.  These are the

 2    ones.  And in 1954, an attempt was made for them to be a joint literary

 3    language.  Croatia gave that up.  And in the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 4    this was completely given up.  So, here, we can just hear the different

 5    dialogues, the different accents of words which we understand as concepts,

 6    but we can't understand them in all their content.

 7            If I tell you that in Croatia a judgement is not "presuda"

 8    [phoen], as it is in Serbian, but "provnarejec" [phoen], then these are

 9    two different terms, and you would have to look in a dictionary to see

10    what the words exactly mean.  And here we have "Bosniak" used and

11     "Croatian" used, and I'm not able to understand that particular word and

12    term.  I have had to ask my Croatian colleagues, because in Serbian it is

13     "presuda"; and in Croatian, the word, it is different.  And I'm sure the

14    interpreters and translators can't come up with words like that very

15    quickly.

16            So I don't want to be tried under conditions of that kind, where I

17    don't understand the language, all the more so, as it is very simple to

18    provide me with the documents in the language and alphabet that I know;

19    all the more so, as it's only the translators that have to read these

20    written documents, not you.

21            Now, I don't know English, of course, so I can only read the

22    documents supplied by the Registrar to me in translations.  So it's just

23    the translators that have to have these different documents, the different

24    languages, and it's easier for a translator to learn the Cyrillic alphabet

25    than it is for me to learn the Croatian language; whereas, if you want me

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 1    just to understand the terms and concepts used in a very superficial way,

 2    then that is your will.

 3            I wish to be tried in my own language so that I can understand

 4    fully all the contents of the documents that are supplied me and

 5    everything that is said to me.

 6            And then there is another problem, when we see that all this is

 7    supplied in computer form, then --

 8            JUDGE PROST:  Let's break this down, Mr. Tolimir, because I don't

 9    want to be mixing concepts here.

10            The first question I want you to answer for me:  Do you read and

11    understand Serbian - let's focus for the moment on the Serbian language -

12    written in Latin as opposed to the Cyrillic script?

13            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I don't understand it

14    sufficiently.

15            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the microphone be activated, please?

16            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, you have to make sure you activate your

17    microphone when you speak.

18            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.

19    I cannot use it and don't know how to use it, because I just used the

20    Latinic script in primary school, when I had to use it, when I had to

21    write in the Latin script, so that was for the first eight years of my

22    schooling; whereas, the translators learn this written form at university.

23            I don't know why you want to put me through this all over again.

24    If a translator knows both scripts, they learn it.  They have set

25    examinations for that.  But I'm just reading translations.  So they can be

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 1    translated in Cyrillic, and this is even easier if you have the assistance

 2    of the computer.  A computer programme does that, so you don't need

 3    translators for that at all.  If you write a text in the Serb language,

 4    just by pressing a button that same text can appear in the Cyrillic.

 5            Now, why you don't want to do this, I don't know.  I don't want to

 6    go into those technical reasons.  However, I'd like to ask you that you

 7    take on board my requests and that I be supplied with documents in my own

 8    language, a language in which I can think quickly and react quickly.

 9            Now, if I were to elaborate what man's thoughts are, then we would

10    come to the conclusion that thoughts in man are quicker than light, travel

11    quicker than light.  And while I'm in the courtroom, I need to read and

12    listen and look at things written in my own language.

13            Thank you.  I also understand you.

14            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.

15            You have identified basically three points, as I understand it:

16    One, you appear to be suggesting to me that you don't read the Latin

17    script; and, secondly, that there is some issue as to whether the

18    translations and interpretation you are receiving is in Serbian, as you

19    understand it; and, thirdly, you have made reference to the computer, the

20    use of the computer programme.

21            Are you saying that you're unable to use the computer programme,

22    Mr. Tolimir, unable to use a computer?

23            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24            What I want to say is that the people supplying me with documents

25    in the Serb language, in the Latin script, should learn to use a computer;

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 1    and then by just pressing a button, that Cyrillic script will be

 2    transformed by the computer itself into the Latin script, or vice versa.

 3    Not me.  When I am given a computer and have the texts, then I'll be able

 4    to do that.

 5            But why can't the technical service of the Registry do that?  Is

 6    it only because it involves the Cyrillic script or is there some other

 7    reason, because there's no other reason?  If you consider that what I say

 8    is incorrect, you can call upon computer experts, and they'll be able to

 9    tell you that the Serb language can be translated into English, not only

10    the Cyrillic and Latin script.

11            And I was going to tell you that Vukaradzic coordinated that, but

12    you wouldn't let me elaborate on that particular part of what I was

13    saying.

14            JUDGE PROST:  I think we can to focus on the issue at hand,

15    Mr. Tolimir, and I am still not clear on one point, and we may need to

16    have some written submissions on this if you're unable to clarify this for

17    me.

18            Can you read and understand Serbian?  I understand all of your

19    submissions.  I understand your position, I do, with respect to the fact

20    that Serbian and the Cyrillic script are the national languages of the

21    country that you come from.  I do understand that.  But what I need to

22    know from you is whether you can read and understand Serbian in the Latin

23    script.  That's what I need to know from you, Mr. Tolimir, whether you're

24    able to read it and understand it.

25            I have taken all your other submissions, and I will deal with them

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 1    in due course, but I need that question answered clearly and

 2    straightforward.

 3            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.

 4            I'm going to tell you very briefly that it is with great effort

 5    that I would be able to read a document in Serbian but written in the

 6    Latin script.  I'd have to go back and learn it again, because it's been

 7    more than 40 years since I had to learn it.  And I can't read it with the

 8    facility that I can in Cyrillic.  I can't take notes.  I can't translate

 9    and transplant one language into another as quickly as I would like to.  I

10    would have to think how to write this all down.  So I can't read it, and

11    I'd like to ask this Court to respect that and to provide me with

12    documents in a language that I can read and understand.

13            If nothing else is possible, then you can supply the documents to

14    me in Macedonian, because this Court uses Macedonian, or perhaps in

15    Russian, because they are all Cyrillic-based languages.  I do not have

16    sufficient knowledge and understanding of the Latin script.

17            Thank you.

18            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, are you saying to me -- is it your

19    submission that you've not used the Latin script over the last 40 years,

20    that you've not looked at documents and materials in that script?  Is that

21    your position?

22            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] That is my position, because

23    we, in Yugoslavia, in the former Yugoslavia, were only duty-bound to use

24    the Latin script and Cyrillic script in writing our project reports in

25    school.  Now, since I did not need to use it otherwise, I didn't.  We only

Page 70

 1    had to do that when we learned it in primary school, to see whether we

 2    could use -- knew how to use that script.  I never used it later because I

 3    didn't need to.

 4            Now, I don't know why you wish to force me to read in a language

 5    which is less understandable to me and accept a script which is less

 6    understandable to me, and which I use with less facility and that I would

 7    have to learn it again.  I'd like to hear you give me an answer to that.

 8            I've said that I was taught that in primary school.  Now, there

 9    are a lot of people who learned foreign languages when they were young and

10    can no longer use them or write in those languages, especially if they had

11    a passive knowledge of those languages.

12            Thank you.

13            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.

14            I'm taking your submission that you do, in fact, read and

15    understand the Latin script; however, it is more difficult for you to read

16    in the Latin script than in the Cyrillic script.  That's the way I'm going

17    to summarise what you've said on that particular point.  But you do read

18    and understand it.

19            Mr. McCloskey, does the Prosecution have any comments to make on

20    this particular issue?

21            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Not at this time, Madam President.

22            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

23            Mr. Tolimir, there have been submissions filed today -- or not

24    today, but yesterday, by the Registrar in this case with respect to

25    various issues, including the use of the Cyrillic text, and I've had

Page 71

 1    regard to those.  And there have as well been previous filings where the

 2    Registry has highlighted the difficulties that are faced in transcribing

 3    these documents into the Cyrillic text, and I have had regard to those

 4    submissions from the Registry.

 5            And I emphasise to you, Mr. Tolimir, that this whole issue is, in

 6    my view, a part of the wider issue of your choice for self-representation

 7    and whether or not that, in light of what you've related to me as to your

 8    preference in terms of language, is going to be problematic.  But on this

 9    question, Mr. Tolimir, of translation, I need you to understand, because I

10    take the substance of your submission to be that you wish to have

11    documents presented to you in the language of your state, in the language

12    of your nation, using the alphabet that is the official language of your

13    country, and not that it is not possible for you to read or to understand

14    this material written in the Latin script.

15            The right, as you've identified, the right to have the material

16    before you in a language that you understand, especially when you're

17    self-represented, is obviously extremely fundamental because it underlies

18    all the other rights that you have to exercise here and have to be

19    fulfilled here in your trial process, but this is a substantive right, Mr.

20    Tolimir.  It's not a question of preference in terms of format or in terms

21    of script.  It is certainly nothing related to trying to raise or in any

22    way diminish the status, the importance, of any particular language.

23            And in fact, as you noted, the Statute and the Rules don't speak

24    of any particular statute -- any particular language when it comes to the

25    accused.  It simply speaks of ensuring that you're receiving material in a

Page 72

 1    language that you can understand.  The purpose is to make sure that all of

 2    the material, all the relevant material, can be provided to you in a way

 3    that you can understand it.

 4            And the difficulty that I face, Mr. Tolimir, is that, as the

 5    Registry has submitted, there are limits.  There are limitations on the

 6    resources available for the translation of material.  And in the case of a

 7    self-represented accused, the amount of material that has to be translated

 8    is very extensive, much more extensive than it is in the context of

 9    represented accused.  And for me, the thing I'm most concerned about,

10    Mr. Tolimir, is making sure that you are receiving all the relevant

11    material in a language that you understand, that you are capable of

12    reading, even if it is more difficult, as you've indicated, for you.

13            And given your acknowledgment, with the qualifications you've

14    indicated, but given your acknowledgment that you can read the Latin

15    script, I'm not prepared to allocate some of those very limited resources

16    of translation towards the transference of the script of the document.  I

17    much prefer to ensure that you are receiving all the material and those

18    resources are applied to ensure that you receive all this material in a

19    language that you can understand, and you can take the time necessary in

20    order to read the materials and understand them.

21            But it is simply in the balancing exercise, Mr. Tolimir, that is

22    the important thing for me, is to ensure you have this material available

23    to you in a language you can understand, and we can accommodate for any

24    difficulties through whatever assistance you're provided with and in

25    addition by granting you more time, if necessary, to look through the

Page 73

 1    materials.

 2            I emphasise, Mr. Tolimir, this is purely about the substance of

 3    the right.  It has nothing to do or no suggestion that there is any

 4    ranking or qualification of one language in relation to another, because

 5    that is not the intention behind the nature of the rule or the nature of

 6    the procedure here.

 7            Therefore, I am denying your request to have the material

 8    translated into the Cyrillic script.  I will continue, however, to ensure,

 9    and I would ask you to bring to my attention, if there are any instances

10    where you're not provided with this material in the Serbian language, and

11    that is obviously critically important.  That is the language you

12    understand.  But the script will continue to be the script as has been the

13    case to date.

14            Having said that, Mr. Tolimir, I appreciate that you're not going

15    to like that decision.  You probably don't agree with it.  But I am asking

16    you to accept it in order that we can proceed with the proper

17    presentation, preparation of your defence, that you can proceed with that.

18    It's critically important that you have this material, that you're able to

19    discuss it and consider it; and to that end, I'm going to ask the

20    Registrar to make arrangements to re-serve material that you have rejected

21    to date, in particular the supporting documentation that was served by the

22    Prosecution in July.  I'm going to encourage you.  I understand the points

23    you've raised.  I have taken them into consideration.  I have thought

24    about them.  But I'm going to ask you to please accept the material in the

25    form in which it is served upon you.

Page 74

 1            Should you fail to do so, Mr. Tolimir, then that is going to be a

 2    major factor that the Trial Chamber is going to have to consider in terms

 3    of your indication that you wish to represent yourself, because it can

 4    obviously have a dramatic impact on the fairness and efficacy of this

 5    trial.  So I'm going to close that particular issue there, Mr. Tolimir,

 6    and hope that you will be prepared to accept the material in that form at

 7    this time.

 8            I'm going to move, then, to the question of disclosure.  I'm going

 9    to turn at this point to Mr. McCloskey.

10            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but I wish to say

11    that you misunderstood me.  You misunderstood me.  I said that I don't

12    understand the Latin script and that I would have to learn it all over

13    again because I don't know it.  I had to learn the Cyrillic script all

14    over again after I had a brain haemorrhage and after I had a stroke.  I

15    had to learn it all over again.  So I, once again, would like to ask you

16    to submit my documents in Serbian.

17            You can take whatever decision you like; but please believe me, at

18    age 60, I have no intention of learning a new script again because the

19    Tribunal does not accept the Cyrillic script, which is accepted as a

20    script of equal equality with all the others.  So I cannot accept that you

21    impose on me that I learn a language again, a language that I would have

22    to learn from scratch.  When I had the stroke in 1983, I no longer knew

23    the Latin script, and I don't wish to have to learn it again.

24            You can bring in your own decisions.  I'll accept any language you

25    like.  You can serve the documents on me in Chinese, but I do not wish to

Page 75

 1    be tried in a language which I don't understand.  I wish to be tried in a

 2    language that I know and I understand, and I would like to prevail on my

 3    state that the Serbian language and the Cyrillic script be accepted as are

 4    all the other languages and scripts of all the other former Yugoslav

 5    Republics.  If I'm a member of a national minority or nationality from the

 6    former Yugoslavia, or rather, if someone from that ethnicity can use the

 7    language here, then I'm sure that the Serbian language and the Cyrillic

 8    script can be allowed in my case.

 9            So I'm not going to accept the documents in a script that I don't

10    understand and cannot use.

11            Thank you.

12            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. McCloskey, on this issue.

13            MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's a related issue, and that is, as Madam

14    President probably knows, we provide our discovery now in electronic

15    format, due to the volume of it.  The electronic disclosure system is a

16    very important part of that so Defence counsel and defendant will have

17    full access to the material.  So if we could get the view of Mr. Tolimir

18    on his use of a computer, that will also be -- give us a practical idea of

19    what we'll all be looking at in getting ready for this case.

20            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  I will return to that

21    issue.

22            First, Mr. Tolimir, I'm getting, unfortunately, I'm getting

23    differing positions from you on your understanding of the Latin text,

24    because you certainly did indicate at one point that you are able to read

25    it, but with difficulty.  And now you're indicating to me that you are not

Page 76

 1    able to read it.  What I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. Tolimir, I would

 2    ask you to consider this, is that the material will be provided to you, as

 3    it has been served upon you.

 4            I would ask you to accept it, have regard to it; and in

 5    consultation with those that you are discussing matters with, see if you

 6    are in a position, in fact, to review the material in this current script

 7    that it's provided to you in.  And if you wish to make written submissions

 8    to me in which you set out what you just indicated, and if you wish to

 9    make further written submissions to me focused on the issue of your

10    ability to understand, to read and understand the script, I'm happy to

11    receive those submissions.

12            But I would ask you, because what you've stated to me here today

13    is somewhat contradictory, in terms of your ability, so I would ask you to

14    take a look at the material, and if you wish to make written submissions

15    to me on this issue, I will receive those written submissions.

16            But I would ask that you, in the meantime -- and, again, I

17    emphasise, Mr. Tolimir, I understand the points you've raised, and the

18    intention here has nothing to do with the status of the language or the

19    script, whatsoever.  It is simply a question of the resource constraints

20    facing the Tribunal and the Registry and our need to ensure that you're

21    getting this material in an understandable form.

22            So for the moment, I would ask that we will leave it with that

23    approach; and if you wish to come back to me with written submissions

24    substantiating your position, then I will receive those submissions.

25            I would like, however, to then turn to the issue raised by

Page 77

 1    Mr. McCloskey, which you touched upon.  Putting a side the context of this

 2    translation issue, there is extensive use in this Tribunal of electronic

 3    disclosure, Mr. Tolimir, as I'm sure you're aware, which means that to

 4    access the materials, you would need to use a computer facility, which, of

 5    course, would be provided to you.

 6            Are you able to use a computer in order to view material,

 7    Mr. Tolimir?

 8            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I don't know how to use the

 9    computer, just as I don't know the Latin script, and I don't want to have

10    to learn to use either.  I would like the documents to be provided to me

11    in Serbian and in Cyrillic, and I wish to stress that loud and clear at

12    this meeting.  I don't want to receive anything that is not in Serbian and

13    in the Cyrillic script, as is the language of my country.

14            Now, all the difficulties with respect to transfer from Cyrillic

15    to Latin is equal to zero.  It just needs a little bit of effort, and

16    anybody that says to the contrary is wrong.  If you have everything on

17    e-court, you can translate it both into the Cyrillic and into the Latin

18    script by just pressing a button.  I can bring in an expert here who will

19    prove that to you and show you, if other people tell you differently, or

20    you can engage one of your experts from The Hague Tribunal, from the

21    Registry.

22            I entreat you not to force me and not to make your decisions on

23    the basis of something that you feel that I might know, as respects the

24    Latin script.  I don't know the Latin script, and I don't wish to learn

25    it.  And why should I learn it when we have a perfectly viable Cyrillic

Page 78

 1    script?  Why?  And everything else is on electronic disclosure, anyway,

 2    and can be very easily transferred.

 3            Now, the fact that even a new text that you wish to submit to me,

 4    you don't wish to have written in Cyrillic, means that it's not a question

 5    of the fact that that is not possible, but that there is not the goodwill

 6    to do that, to write here in the Serb language and the Cyrillic script.

 7    Otherwise, I can't explain it in any other way.

 8            Why don't you respond to my letters or requests or anything else

 9    in Cyrillic?  The translator won't even write it down in handwriting in

10    the Cyrillic script.  Before the Status Conference was held, they came to

11    tell me something in English without a translator.  I think that is quite

12    improper.

13            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, on your last point, yes, I understand,

14    and certainly --

15            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16            JUDGE PROST:  -- all efforts will be made to ensure that you

17    receive the translation, interpretation into Serbian.

18            On the points that you have raised, I will ask you, if you wish me

19    to consider the matter again, if you can concisely set out to me the

20    points you have just raised in writing so that I have your exact position,

21    because, as I say, I'm a bit perplexed by the differing position.  So if

22    you can set it out to me in writing, concisely, I will give the Registry

23    an opportunity to file any submission they wish to make in response, and

24    the Prosecution, if they wish to do so, and then we can come back to the

25    matter at a later stage.

Page 79

 1            But for the moment, my decision is that the materials will

 2    continue to be served in the Serbian language, obviously with translation

 3    and interpretation into Serbian, but that the script issue will not be

 4    addressed.  There will not be translations into the Cyrillic script.

 5            But I'm inviting you, if you wish to make concise submissions to

 6    me on the point in writing, then I will consider those submissions and the

 7    submissions in response to them from the Registry and the Prosecution.

 8            But I simply wish to clarify -- if we could leave that issue,

 9    Mr. Tolimir, I simply wish to clarify with you on the question of a

10    computer.  I take it you're saying that you're not able to view materials

11    disclosed to you in electronic form.  Is that the position that you're

12    taking?

13            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my position.

14            Now, if you're going to make a decision now that I have to read

15    the Latin script and that new scripts being compiled, and even responses

16    from the Registry, well, I can't understand this resistance of yours to

17    the Cyrillic script, because you don't want a single Cyrillic letter to

18    enter into any of the Tribunal's computers.

19            So I should like to say publicly, in public, that I would like all

20    the documents to be sent me and any material sent me in a language that I

21    read and understand, and I don't want to use a computer.  For those

22    reasons, I don't want to learn to use it.  And you insist on providing me

23    with electronic material in Latin; whereas, your computers are versatile

24    in other languages.

25            Thank you.

Page 80

 1            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, we'll leave that issue for the moment.

 2            Mr. McCloskey, on the issue of electronic disclosure, do you wish

 3    to make any submissions at this time, or would you prefer to make written

 4    submissions on the situation in terms of disclosure?

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think I can say just something very briefly now,

 6    orally.

 7            The amount of disclosure is such that it's really impossible now

 8    to provide this material in a hard-copy format and with the resources of

 9    this Tribunal and of the OTP.  It would be something that would envelope

10    the accused as well.  He just would not have the ability to search, to

11    review.

12            And in listening to the General, in my view, it's actually a very

13    simple situation.  If he cannot or will not use Latin script and he cannot

14    or will not use a computer, he must be appointed counsel.  In this day and

15    age, there's no other option.  I think it's as simple as that.

16            And I don't want to spring that on all of us right now, but I

17    don't see how we can go on like this much further.  But in this day and

18    age, there's really no other choice.  Counsel can communicate to him in a

19    way that he can clearly understand, or he cannot choose to communicate

20    with his counsel.  But it would be a farce to go on with a trial where he

21    is not reading and he is not using a computer.

22            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

23            I think what we're going to do is we will come to issues in due

24    course, I'm certain, over the course.  This is only the first Status

25    Conference, so I'm not going to revisit that particular issue.  But we do

Page 81

 1    have the statements that have now been made by Mr. Tolimir as to his

 2    position on the use of the Latin script, on the issue of computers, for

 3    the moment, and I am not going to delve further into that today.  But I

 4    certainly note your comments in this respect.

 5            Mr. Tolimir, we're not going to address today the issue of

 6    electronic disclosure.  I have noted what you have said on that particular

 7    point.  We will return to it, no doubt, in due course.

 8            What I'd like to do at this stage is to return to -- to move

 9    forward to the issue of disclosure, and if we can put aside for the

10    moment, Mr. McCloskey, the difficulties in terms of translation and

11    script.  Can you tell me - we discussed this briefly at the appearance -

12    but can you tell me of the status of your work on Rule 66 (A)(2) material

13    and the disclosure of those materials?

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  We have the ability to provide that material very

15    soon.  But as I think you're already alerted to, in our attempt to provide

16    the audio of the Krstic and the Blagojevic material, and in our attempt to

17    provide the CD of all the exhibits of the current Popovic case, and even

18    the RS reports that the General has asked for, he has refused to take

19    them.  So we do have the ability, electronically, to provide this material

20    rather quickly; however, it's a question of the usefulness of doing that,

21    because where do we take it?  Does he have an EDS account?

22            These are issues that are normally sorted out by lawyers, and the

23    Registry is in a rather difficult position.  They're not quite sure how to

24    deal with it, but we are ready to provide the material electronically, as

25    we would with anyone else.  We're not ready to make exceptions for this

Page 82

 1    client.

 2            JUDGE PROST:  Can I ask you, Mr. McCloskey, putting format aside,

 3    are you satisfied that you're in a position at this stage to disclose all

 4    of the material necessary under Rule 66(2).  Putting the question of

 5    format aside, has it compiled and is it ready, or is there further work

 6    you need to do on that?

 7            MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's not sealed and deliverable, but that can be

 8    done, in consultation with Mr. Stewart, relatively soon.

 9            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you for that.

10            Mr. Tolimir, what we are discussing is Rule 66 (A)(2), which is

11    that the obligation is on the Prosecution to disclose to you copies of the

12    statements of all witnesses that the Prosecutor intends to call to testify

13    at trial and copies of all written statements taken in accordance with

14    Rule 92 bis.

15            The Prosecutor at this stage must disclose what he intends to

16    adduce, but there is also a continuing obligation which would go on during

17    the course of the proceedings to disclose copies of statements of

18    additional witnesses that the Prosecution may decide to call.

19            Do you have any submissions to make on the question of the

20    disclosure of the written statements pursuant to this Rule, Mr. Tolimir,

21    other than what you've already submitted in terms of -- we've already

22    discussed the issue of script, et cetera.  Anything further, though, on

23    that particular question of the disclosure of witness statements?

24            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you.

25            Madam President, what I want to say is this:  I would like, before

Page 83

 1    electronic disclosure takes place, that the computers via which disclosure

 2    is done be equipped with a programme which writes the Cyrillic language

 3    and alphabet, because quite obviously computers can work in all languages,

 4    and so I assume by the same token they can work in the Cyrillic language,

 5    too.  So we'll see whether this is a matter of principle, whereby you send

 6    me documents exclusively in the Latin script, or is it a failure to

 7    recognise the Cyrillic script, because a computer has all kinds of

 8    language programmes that it can learn.

 9            It doesn't matter whether it's Mr. McCloskey or me.  It's the

10    computer programme that we're talking about.  And if we use diskettes,

11    then they can all be printed in Cyrillic.  And if you haven't got an

12    expert who can incorporate the Cyrillic script into the computers, then

13    allow me to do that with my expert.

14            Thank you.  That is what I would like to propose, that my expert

15    incorporates a Cyrillic language programme into your computers.

16            JUDGE PROST:  Fine.  As indicated, Mr. Tolimir, we'll leave that

17    particular issue at the moment.

18            The one other point I want to raise with you on this question of

19    disclosure is audiotapes.  That obviously doesn't involve any question of

20    script.

21            I ordered that the audiotapes of your first two hearings,

22    appearances before me be disclosed to you, along with the equipment to

23    listen to them, and I heard mention by Mr. McCloskey that they have also

24    offered material in audio form.  I understand that you have so far refused

25    to accept the audiotapes.

Page 84

 1            Can I ask you to please accept the audiotapes, material which does

 2    not involve any question of script?  Can you explain to me why you

 3    wouldn't do that, Mr. Tolimir?

 4            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Well, thank you.

 5            What I would like to explain is that I don't want to accept any

 6    tapes which have transcripts in the Latin script and not in the Cyrillic

 7    script, because I can't understand them and can't use them.  So please

 8    understand me.

 9            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, I'm not talking about -- I'm not

10    talking about transcripts.  I'm talking about providing you with

11    audiotapes, as I ordered in my previous order, of the hearings where you

12    can listen on audio equipment, listen through audio equipment, and make

13    notes as you wish regarding the previous appearances or regarding other

14    material that the Prosecution may disclose.  This has nothing to do with

15    the issue of script.

16            Can you tell me why you will not accept audiotape material?

17            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I refuse because

18    you do not wish to elaborate it, the transcript of it, in the language

19    that I speak.

20            On my first two appearances, and this was recorded, what I asked

21    you was to provide me with a transcript of what I said during the first

22    and second appearance, and that was the current situation.  They weren't

23    old tapes whereby it would be difficult to provide them in Cyrillic.  It's

24    just a matter of pressing the computer button so that the transcript can

25    be printed out in Cyrillic, so that I don't have to listen for 12 hours

Page 85

 1    something I can read through in two hours.  But nobody wishes to respect

 2    that request of mine and comply.

 3            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  I think I have your

 4    position, then, on that particular issue.

 5            On the question of disclosure, then, under Rule 66 (A)(2), I'm not

 6    going to set any deadlines at this time, Mr. McCloskey.  I think we will

 7    take up the issue once again, as we have continuing questions regarding

 8    receipt of the material, but I would urge you to please continue to

 9    compiling it to the point where it is ready for delivery.

10            And did you have another comment on that issue, Mr. McCloskey?

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

12            It would take me or Ms. Stewart a matter of hours, merely, because

13    it's all in place.  It's all there already.  We just need the EDS, the

14    account, the logistical ability to do it.

15            JUDGE PROST:  I understand that, and I think perhaps some of these

16    issues might be easier to address, though, once the issue between the

17    Registry and Mr. Tolimir is resolved, regarding any assistance that he's

18    going to be provided, associates or things of that nature.  So I think,

19    perhaps, it's best, for today, I will suspend setting any deadline until

20    we can do it in a meaningful way, because otherwise it may be a wasted

21    process.  So we'll leave that particular issue.

22            On the disclosure point, the only other point I wanted to raise,

23    although I'm certain I don't have to, Mr. McCloskey, but I'm sure you're

24    well aware, of course, of the need to disclose any Rule 68 material.

25    Again, we face the same logistical issues, but I'm sure you're taking

Page 86

 1    steps to ensure that you're searching for any Rule 68 material.

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Madam President.  As you know, that's a daily

 3    part of our ongoing trial, and we're always looking at.  And, again, that

 4    just underscores the importance of a computer and the other side knowing

 5    how to use one, because that's how we are able to get it to the Defence in

 6    the best manner.

 7            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

 8            Mr. Tolimir, what I've just raised with the Prosecution is Rule

 9    68, which you may have reviewed, places an obligation on the Prosecutor.

10    It's a continuing obligation to always disclose to the Defence any

11    material which in the actual knowledge of the Prosecutor that may suggest

12    the innocence or mitigate the guilt of the accused or affect the

13    credibility of the Prosecution evidence.  And so I have simply discussed

14    with him the need for that obligation to be met and for the Prosecution to

15    ensure that they're searching for any such material and disclosing it to

16    you.  So I don't believe there is any need to explore that particular

17    point any further.

18            I don't have any other issues on disclosure, unless anyone else

19    wishes to raise a particular disclosure issue that we have not already

20    discussed.

21            I don't hear anything from either side, so I think we will move

22    on, then.

23            Mr. Tolimir, you have raised -- I'm sorry.

24            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I thought that you would

25    treat all questions put forward by me in my submission on a footing of

Page 87

 1    equality, as being placed on the agenda of the Status Conference.

 2    However, I don't see that that is the case.

 3            JUDGE PROST:  I'm moving to the next issue, Mr. Tolimir, that you

 4    raised in your submission, if that -- unless did you have something else

 5    you wanted to raise with me on disclosure, because I wanted to move to the

 6    question of your allegations regarding illegal arrest.  We have dealt with

 7    the two other issues, the financing issue, the script issue.  And now I

 8    would like to move to the other issue you raised, the very important issue

 9    of your allegations concerning your illegal arrest.

10            Do you understand that, Mr. Tolimir?  Unless you had something

11    further to raise on disclosure.

12            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I accept your proposal that

13    we move on to the question of my kidnapping and illegal arrest.

14            Thank you.

15            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

16            And here, Mr. Tolimir, again we come to an issue that relates

17    again back to your self-representation.

18            You have raised, both in your appearances and now in written

19    submissions, and reiterated very serious complaints about the

20    circumstances under which you were arrested and transferred to this

21    Tribunal.  As a first point in this regard, you requested that statements

22    be taken by the parties who had been involved in the arrest and transfer.

23            And I believe at the last appearance, Mr. McCloskey, we discussed

24    this issue.  You made mention on the record that work was being undertaken

25    in that regard with respect to taking statements from individuals involved

Page 88

 1    in the arrest and transfer.  I'm wondering if you can update me on that

 2    particular issue.

 3            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  What we were awaiting was the RS material on

 4    the arrest, and we have a report on that.  That was one of the items that

 5    we tried to give the General on 19 July, and it's actually in the Cyrillic

 6    script.

 7            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, I'm going to suggest that since the

 8    report from the Republika Srpska has been provided and provided in the

 9    Cyrillic script, I'm going to ask the Registrar to deliver that to you,

10    and I presume you're going to accept that document.  It is in accord with

11    your wishes for it to be in your language and in your script, and I think

12    it's very important, obviously, that you receive that material.

13            So I will instruct the Registrar to -- oh, we can probably provide

14    that material right now to you, because I think it's clearly important, on

15    this issue, that you receive the material that's been prepared.

16            Mr. McCloskey, I'm happy if it's -- oh, is it being delivered now?

17    Is that a copy that can be provided to him right now?

18            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Ms. Stewart brought that, and that can be

19    provided.  It's from the RS.  We don't have anything from Serbia, as yet,

20    nor do I know if we will get anything from Serbia, but we will continue to

21    work on that.

22            JUDGE PROST:  So, Mr. McCloskey, I can take it, then, that you are

23    still anticipating further materials in respect of --

24            MR. McCLOSKEY:  We have a -- we'll have a request out.  I don't

25    recall exactly what requests we have made to Serbia.  I'm not, frankly,

Page 89

 1    confident that Serbia will respond, but they may.  And I will update -- I

 2    will update the Chamber on anything we get from Serbia.  We're hearing

 3    from the RS authorities, but Serbia.  I think we have a little more to

 4    hear from them on it.

 5            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. McCloskey, I understand that amongst the

 6    documents that were just provided to Mr. Tolimir, there was the report

 7    which is in the Cyrillic text, and it appears there was something else

 8    attached which is not in the Cyrillic text, which has now just been

 9    returned to me.

10            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  That's Don King, the OTP investigator that

11    was involved in the transfer of the General.  We naturally -- we do not

12    use the Cyrillic text.

13            JUDGE PROST:  Okay.  I'm going to -- for the moment,

14    Mr. McCloskey.  I don't want this to drag on, however, because I think

15    this is a very critical issue that needs to be resolved early on.

16    Obviously, it relates to the arrest and transfer.  Mr. Tolimir has raised

17    these serious questions.  So I would like you to try and, as best you can,

18    get an idea from the Serbian authorities when we might expect something or

19    if we might expect something, so that I can, at a future point, set a

20    deadline for any submissions to be made on this issue.

21            I had hoped to do so today, but I think it's not fair to do so in

22    the absence of at least seeing if we can have a complete -- as complete a

23    record as possible.

24            So if you could do that, Mr. McCloskey.

25            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, absolutely, Madam President.

Page 90

 1            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

 2            Mr. Tolimir, as I've indicated to you previously, the Trial

 3    Chamber takes very seriously the issues you have raised regarding your

 4    arrest and transfer to this Tribunal.  We are, however, not able to

 5    properly consider the matter and give it the attention it deserves in the

 6    absence of proper filings from the parties.

 7            You are going to need, eventually, to bring a motion which

 8    specifies the allegations that you are making as to the circumstances of

 9    your arrest, which points to any supporting evidence in that regard and

10    which outlines to the Trial Chamber specifically what remedy you are

11    seeking from the Chamber in relation to that, the allegations that you

12    make.

13            The Prosecution will then be given an opportunity to respond to

14    that motion, and that is, in our view, a very important and urgent matter.

15            Now, I had intended today, Mr. Tolimir, to set a deadline for you

16    to file that motion.  However, in light of the comments from the

17    Prosecution that there is still a possibility of receiving further

18    material, then I am not going to set the deadline today.  But I would

19    encourage you, Mr. Tolimir, to begin work on that, because I will

20    certainly, as soon as any further material is provided or we have

21    determined no further material will be forthcoming, be setting a deadline

22    for you to bring that motion before the Chamber.

23            So we'll leave that matter for the moment.

24            Again, Mr. Tolimir, you have returned to the Prosecution material

25    on this issue that you have raised repeatedly with the Tribunal, and

Page 91

 1    obviously that is a matter of concern.  But I will leave it there, unless

 2    you have any further comments to make on this question.  As I say,

 3    Mr. Tolimir, I appreciate that you've previously made oral submissions on

 4    the point, but the Trial Chamber will need a motion, a written motion, on

 5    this particular question in due course, though I'm not setting a deadline

 6    today.

 7            Do you have any comments you wish to make at this time,

 8    Mr. Tolimir, on that question?

 9            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10            Yes, I do have comments to make.

11            First of all, it was stated here that I did not want to accept the

12    document of Republika Srpska about my arrest which was written in Cyrillic

13    onto typed-out pages.  I could not --

14            JUDGE PROST:  I'm sorry, Mr. Tolimir.  There must have been a

15    mistake in translation.  I'm not saying you didn't accept the report from

16    the Republika Srpska in Cyrillic.  There was an additional document which

17    is not in Cyrillic, which is a report that the Prosecution was providing

18    to you, and that is the document which you have returned.  So I didn't

19    want to have any misunderstandings here.  It is clear you did accept the

20    report from the Republika Srpska, but not the additional document, and

21    that's all I was referring to.

22            Now, do you have any additional comments on this issue?

23            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that I

24    refuse to accept that in the detention unit because the condition laid was

25    that with this document, I should sign that I accept the other documents,

Page 92

 1    the rest of the documents, and that is something that I refuse to do.

 2    That's as far as that document is concerned.

 3            And now I want to say something else, if you've moved on to

 4    another area, about my kidnapping and arrest.  With your permission, I

 5    think that's the next subject to the agenda.

 6            Madam President, before this Trial Chamber, both times I appeared,

 7    I requested that you investigate how I was kidnapped in Serbia,

 8    transferred to Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 9    which comes under the control of NATO, and illegally transported to the

10    International Court in The Hague without any document on extradition, and

11    I've repeated that several times.

12            I also requested that you took -- you take public statements,

13    statements given publicly to the media about my arrest in Serbia by the

14    competent authorities in Serbia.  I didn't ask you to take statements as

15    regards the circumstances of my arrest by those who arrested me, because

16    if I knew who they were, then I would say, "Go and get so-and-so."  What I

17    asked was public statements from the president of the country, the prime

18    minister, the foreign minister, the justice minister, and other relevant

19    organs, which represent the state of Serbia both on the national level and

20    international level and who gave statements about my arrest.

21            And in those statements about my arrest, you can clearly see that

22    I was not arrested, as they said, on the territory of Serbia; whereas, I

23    was, in fact, arrested in Belgrade, in my flat.

24            Now, does that mean that somebody kidnapped me in Belgrade and

25    then transferred me to Republika Srpska because all those statements by

Page 93

 1    all those leaders from Serbia say that I was kidnapped, because they all

 2    claim that they did not arrest me.  If I was not arrested by the legal

 3    authorities, then that means that I was arrested by the kidnappers and

 4    transferred me to the authority of NATO.

 5            And I would like this Court to establish why I had to be kidnapped

 6    and transferred to this Tribunal and to NATO from Belgrade, because this

 7    is something that all state authorities of Serbia confirm.  President

 8    Tadic is one.  All organs in Serbia confirm they did not arrest me.

 9    That's what the president of the country says.  The prime minister says

10    the same thing, and so does the foreign minister, and the Minister of the

11    Interior, and the Minister of Justice, who is best placed to know, and the

12    minister of the police, and president of the Council for Cooperation with

13    The Hague of the Tribunal.

14            And this is something that Carla Del Ponte stated, too, when she

15    visited the country from the 4th to the 8th of June, when she was in

16    Belgrade.  And on the basis of that, this Court can conclude that I was,

17    in fact, kidnapped then.

18            Now, I'm asking myself, I'm wondering why does the Tribunal accept

19    somebody who was kidnapped, and why does it not investigate on what

20    grounds I was kidnapped, and it's been three or four months.  We have a

21    statement from Republika Srpska which falsely says it arrested me.  That's

22    not true.  I wasn't arrested in the Republika Srpska.

23            So I ask you not to bring in statements here that are false.  This

24    will come in handy -- this statement will come in handy to me because I'm

25    going to prove that it's not true.  But I don't want false statements of

Page 94

 1    this kind to be how this investigation ends.

 2            I was kidnapped between the 30th and the 31st of May, 2007, and

 3    that was confirmed with the public statements from the 1st to the 10th of

 4    June, 2007, by all the people that I mentioned a moment ago, and the Chief

 5    Prosecutor from The Hague Tribunal, Madam Del Ponte.  Everybody said they

 6    didn't arrest me, that I wasn't arrested.

 7            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, two things.  One is you're going to

 8    need to slow down, because the interpreters are having difficulty

 9    interpreting you.  And also, perhaps I wasn't clear, but I do well

10    appreciate the submissions that you have been making to me at the first

11    two appearances on this issue.  As I've indicated, it is a serious issue

12    that the Trial Chamber is interested in pursuing.

13            I do take your comments on the question of Serbian authorities;

14    and as the Prosecutor has indicated, he has requested and is awaiting any

15    reports from Serbia.  But we're not going to be able to deal with this

16    issue and all of your allegations, as well as any positions you wish to

17    advance, in an oral hearing, Mr. Tolimir.  That's my point.

18            You have raised this issue.  We certainly want to hear you out on

19    this issue, and there may be supplemental information that can be provided

20    orally.  But, really, what's going to have to happen is there's going to

21    have to be a motion, a written motion in which you detail these particular

22    allegations to us.

23            Now, I'm happy to hear briefly the rest of the comments you want

24    to make today, but we are awaiting material from Serbia.  We are -- the

25    matter is being looked into.  The Trial Chamber remains ready to examine

Page 95

 1    the issue, but, ultimately, you're going to have to present a written

 2    motion on this.  Okay?

 3            Is there further remarks you wish to make at this time, because

 4    we're not going to be able, in the time allotted to us, to go into the

 5    substance of this issue without the benefit of written submissions from

 6    all the parties.

 7            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8            I apologise to the interpreters for the speed at which I was

 9    speaking.

10            I've already said this in written form and orally, but I'm

11    interested in knowing why you're asking for statements and looking for

12    statements when I asked that public statements be looked into, given to

13    the media, claiming what was claimed by those who are in power and who

14    state that I was not arrested in Serbia.  The prime minister and president

15    of a country said that I wasn't arrested, then that means I was kidnapped.

16    And the people who were in my flat, who were taken into custody to the

17    police and interrogated and interviewed by the police proved I was

18    arrested in Belgrade.

19            So does this Tribunal wish to try a person who was kidnapped or

20    not?

21            Now, who kidnapped me?  What was the role of the Tribunal?  What

22    was the role of the OTP?  What was the role of NATO?  Because there are

23    statements which state that before my arrest, everybody actually knew I

24    was going to be arrested, and that this was in cohorts with The Hague

25    Tribunal, that this is was something they knew.

Page 96

 1            So why is the public being misled, and why am I denied my right of

 2    stating exactly where I was arrested?  Why was I taken to Bratunac,

 3    arrested there, and filmed in Bratunac?

 4            Those are all questions which are essential for my future status

 5    to be determined, so I don't wish to discuss any of these issues until the

 6    question of my arrest has been resolved.

 7            I very much doubt that this Tribunal would like to try a person

 8    who was kidnapped.  Perhaps I'm wrong on that score, but I do believe

 9    that, because this Court does not have a decision on extradition.  So why

10    did he accept to take me in?  Who arranged all this?

11            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, I'm going to stop you there.

12            I understand very well and you've been very clear about what your

13    position is, and you've given an indication of the kind of remedies you're

14    seeking.

15            I would suggest we're going to leave the topic for today, because

16    one of the things you've raised, the question of public statements, these

17    are the types of material, Mr. Tolimir, in the normal course that someone

18    bringing a motion would put forward with their motion, copies of any

19    public statements, for example, that supported their positions.  So what

20    I'm going to suggest is we still have to have resolved the issue of any

21    assistance you're going to receive, and this might be material that those

22    assisting you could help you put together.

23            So there's no use us pursuing it any further today.  I understand

24    very clearly what your position is, and I hope you understand as well very

25    clearly my position, which is:  The Trial Chamber is happy to review this

Page 97

 1    issue, and we are receptive to any material you want us to have regard

 2    to.  But this is one of the issues, again, related to self-representation.

 3    You are going to, because you've taken on that responsibility, have to put

 4    the material forward in a motion form, with the supporting documentation

 5    that you want us to review.

 6            The Prosecutor has undertaken the obligation of gathering material

 7    that relates to this issue, but the onus is upon you, as bringing the

 8    motion, to put forward that material.

 9            So there is little use in us continuing to discuss it today.  As I

10    said, I'm not setting a deadline today for the filing of any motion.  This

11    is still very much a live issue.  We will return to it, but I'm asking you

12    to prepare yourself for the fact that you will need to put down, in

13    writing, with attachments, your submissions on this particular point.

14            So I think we will, unless the Prosecution had any further

15    comments on this particular point, which I don't see Mr. McCloskey

16    standing, I'm going to move, Mr. Tolimir - I hope you've understood what I

17    said - to the issue of preliminary motions under Rule 72.

18            I had previously suspended the 30-day time period that runs for

19    disclosure of material under Rule 66 (A)(1), which material was disclosed

20    to you by the Prosecution.  I had suspended at the previous hearing any

21    deadline for the filing of preliminary objections because you had no

22    counsel.

23            In light of the fact that you've elected to self-represent,

24    Mr. Tolimir, and the fact that the Rules have now become quite clear on

25    the importance of abiding by these deadlines and not leaving these matters

Page 98

 1    hanging, I am going to set a deadline for you to provide submissions under

 2    the Rule.  And these would be preliminary objections to the indictment,

 3    preliminary motions, including motions challenging jurisdiction, alleging

 4    defects in the form of the indictment, seeking the severance of counts

 5    enjoined in one indictment, raising objections based on the refusal --

 6    well, that one at the moment is not relevant.

 7            So I am going to have to set a deadline today, Mr. Tolimir, for

 8    those particular motions.  Do you have any submissions to make to me

 9    regarding the preliminary objections to the indictment?  And I would ask

10    you to be concise on those.  Any objections you raise are going to have to

11    be in a written form, in the form of a written motion.  But do you have

12    any submissions on the deadline, Mr. Tolimir?

13            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.

14            I understood that you interrupted me in my submissions, but please

15    allow me to continue.

16            I will accept your decision.  I have written 30 submissions so

17    far.  I can write two a day.  It's no problem, but my submissions are not

18    responded to.  I can obtain these public statements.  One can just go to

19    the website of various news agencies that announce them.  And that can be

20    done, but people don't want to do this deliberately.

21            I do not wish to abuse the fact that you have given me the floor,

22    but allow me, please, to say this:  I don't want you to give me any

23    deadlines or orders until it is established how and why I was arrested and

24    transferred here.  I'm here illegally.

25            You can issue all kinds of orders to me, but I will not act upon

Page 99

 1    these orders until this issue is resolved.  I've been here for four months

 2    and my status has not been resolved during that time.  Someone

 3    deliberately does not want my status to be resolved.

 4            All these are public statements.  They were broadcast publicly.

 5    You can find them on websites.  There's no need to go to Serbia to obtain

 6    them.  You can just do it electronically from here.  But, obviously,

 7    somebody does not want to clarify this situation and explain why I was

 8    kidnapped.  Please bear this in mind, and only then issue any orders that

 9    you might want to issue.  First order that this issue be resolved and then

10    issue any order to me.  I can write up to ten submissions a day.

11            Please bear this in mind.

12            Thank you very much.

13            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  I understand your position,

14    and I certainly agree with you that it is an important issue and one that

15    needs to be resolved.  As I indicated, we are awaiting further material,

16    and you certainly free, as part of your motion, to submit these additional

17    materials that you're making reference to.

18            But for the moment, Mr. Tolimir, regardless of that issue being

19    pending, I am going to put in place a deadline for the purposes of you

20    providing submissions, as I mentioned, under Rule 72 on preliminary

21    objections to the indictment.

22            In light of all the circumstances, I am going to set a longer

23    deadline than might be normally the case for those.  I'm going to set a

24    deadline of 45 days, Mr. Tolimir, for that motion to be filed.  Forty-five

25    days will run starting on Monday.

Page 100

 1            And I bring to your attention, Mr. Tolimir, because this will be

 2    the first area where you're making formal submissions pursuant to the

 3    Rules, that Rule 127 (A)(1) does give me the ability to extend that

 4    period, but you will need to demonstrate good cause.

 5            So I'm setting a 45-day time limit for the filing of the motions,

 6    which time limit will run starting Monday, and those are the motions

 7    pursuant to Rule 72 (A).

 8            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Could you please specify

 9    precisely which motions?

10            JUDGE PROST:  The Rule makes reference, Mr. Tolimir, to any

11    motions that you want to bring challenging jurisdiction; secondly,

12    alleging defects in the form of the indictment, or seeking the severance

13    of counts joined in one indictment.  If you have regard to Rule 72 (A),

14    that's going to explain to you precisely the nature of the preliminary

15    motions that you may wish to bring within that time period.

16            Is that clear?

17            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Yes.  It is clear to me, but

18    I would like to ask you to tell me now, at this conference, what motions I

19    need to submit, because so far I have not received any material in the

20    language that I read and understand.  I am not aware of that, so please

21    tell me now, what do you want me to write about in my motion?

22            Thank you.

23            JUDGE PROST:  Well, Mr. Tolimir, I think that's at the root of the

24    problem we've been discussing this afternoon, and I'm not prepared to

25    reopen the issue of the materials and the language question.

Page 101

 1            I have outlined to you the only motion I'm setting a deadline for

 2    today is the one that I've just described to you, Rule 72 (A), and that's

 3    the only deadline that I've set so far.  There are other matters pending,

 4    obviously, including the issue of your arrest, but I'm not setting any

 5    deadlines.

 6            So the one you need to concentrate on in the next 45 days is Rule

 7    72 (A).  And, yes, I agree with you that we're in a bit of an impossible

 8    situation if you continue to maintain the position that you will not

 9    accept the material that's relevant to those motions, and you have my

10    ruling on that particular point.  If you wish to make written submissions

11    to me, as I mentioned earlier, you can do so, but at the moment I have set

12    the deadline and I have ruled on the issue of translation.  So that's as

13    far as I think we can go for today, and that is the submissions which I

14    wish to receive from you in 45 days.

15            And again, Mr. Tolimir, I think this also highlights issues that

16    we have here because of your request to be self-represented, but I will go

17    no further on that today.

18            The final area I wish to move to, unless you had any other issues

19    on that, Mr. McCloskey, is, Mr. Tolimir, is the question of your health.

20            I have certainly read your submissions, your filings on this

21    issue.  I'm prepared to offer you to go into private session to discuss

22    anything; although, I take it from your filings that you do not wish to

23    discuss those matters in private session, and you're prepared to do so in

24    open session.

25            What I wanted to raise with you, Mr. Tolimir, is if there is any

Page 102

 1    issues you wish to bring to my attention regarding your health.

 2            I am aware and have seen all of the filings that you have made

 3    regarding treatment at the unit, each of which will be dealt with by the

 4    appropriate authorities in due course.  So I don't think it would be

 5    productive for us to review your previous filings.

 6            But what I'd like to do, because we have very limited time,

 7    Mr. Tolimir, is I'd like to simply ask you if there's any particular

 8    health matters that you wish to bring to my attention today, not the

 9    matters that you've already dealt with by way of your submissions, because

10    those are all -- will all be considered, but anything particular you want

11    to bring to my attention today.

12            And as I say, our time is quite limited at this stage.

13            Mr. Tolimir, is there anything you wanted to bring to my attention

14    regarding your health today?

15            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16            I wanted to reply to the issue you posed at the end of the

17    discussion of my arrest.  You said, "Does anybody wish to say anything,"

18    and I wish to say just two sentences.

19            The morality is the basis of any innocence, and the morality of

20    all of those people who put forward false facts and inform both this

21    Tribunal and the public must be penalized.

22            I, as a religious person, value morality above anything else in

23    any task, and I believe this is a precondition for anything -- for me to

24    participate in anything.  This is why I ask that you resolve the issue of

25    my arrest.  Once you resolve that issue, then you can decide on all other

Page 103

 1    issues.

 2            Second, it is not proper to tell me that I should not have the

 3    right to self-represent myself because I insist on the issue of my arrest

 4    be resolved, and because I insist that I be served anything in Cyrillic

 5    script.  You just told me now that I can not even receive transcript from

 6    this session in Cyrillic.  What is this but discrimination?  Who has

 7    discriminated against me?

 8            I cannot receive the transcript from this session today in

 9    Serbian, in the Cyrillic script.  Can you rule on that?  If you can, then

10    I will abide by your ruling.  But nobody dares to rule on this.  Why not?

11    What is the problem there?  Why is the Cyrillic script such a problem to

12    this Tribunal, when it can be easily resolved by a computer programme?

13            I ask you --

14            JUDGE PROST:  Sorry, Mr. Tolimir.  We're not able to return once

15    again to the issues that we have already covered at great length.  I've

16    taken your --

17            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

18            JUDGE PROST:  I've taken your points in relation to that issue and

19    the arrest issue, and we need to bring the matters to a conclusion.

20            I simply want to deal, finally, with the issue of health,

21    Mr. Tolimir.  Is there anything you wish to bring to my attention

22    regarding health or any other issue, not revisiting the issues that we've

23    already covered?

24            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25            I want to tell you that my health is excellent, and I thank you

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 1    for asking me that question, so that the people who are interested in my

 2    health can hear about it.

 3            But I would like to ask you that we discuss three of my motions

 4    which regard the violation of my discretionary right, not to discuss my

 5    health.  We can't equate this, my discretionary rights and my health.

 6            So if you would like to discuss the violation of my discretionary

 7    rights, that's what I would like to do, and I have expounded upon them in

 8    my three submissions ranging between five and six pages.

 9            If we can't do that now, then we can do that at another conference

10    and I can write more submissions.  But I don't think there's any point to

11    that, because for three months I have been writing submissions about the

12    violation of my discretionary rights, but nobody has reacted and no

13    measures are taken.  So I don't see any reason for us -- or purpose in us

14    discussing anything else if the problems I raise are not acted upon.

15            Thank you.

16            JUDGE PROST:  Yes.  Mr. Tolimir, I'm well aware of the

17    submissions that you've made, and I certainly do agree with you that those

18    submissions need to be responded to and addressed.

19            As you probably know, though, there is the procedure in place

20    where the initial response and subsequent responses actually to those

21    kinds of submissions have to come through the commanding officer and then

22    through the Registrar, and, ultimately potentially, the President.

23            So they are -- you have made those submissions.  The Registry is

24    aware of them, and I will certainly indicate to the Registry that there

25    should be responses to those.  But the way the procedure works,

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 1    Mr. Tolimir, there's not much that I can do today in relation to those

 2    motions.  But I will make sure to bring to the attention of the Registry

 3    your request today that those be responded to, the motions that you have

 4    brought regarding conditions at the unit, and we will take the matter up

 5    again, if there's been no progress, at the next Status Conference that we

 6    hold.

 7            So, certainly, I agree with you that those motions are pending and

 8    need to be addressed, but the procedure is such that it falls to the

 9    responsibility of the Registry at an initial phase.  So, for today, we

10    will leave it at that.  And unless there is any other particular issue you

11    wanted to bring to my attention, Mr. Tolimir, those were all of the issues

12    that I had intended to raise today, or if the Prosecution has any

13    additional issues.

14            I'll perhaps first hear from the Prosecution.

15            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just one very brief issue.

16            Since the General is now representing himself, I would just like

17    to pass on, well, to you, Madam President and the General, that we are

18    open to discuss motions or anything else with him, as we would any party.

19            Also, the Prosecutor has invited General Tolimir to speak to her,

20    if he so chooses.

21            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

22            Mr. Tolimir, any further -- any comments or any further matters

23    that you want to raise today?

24            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25            I would like to respond to the question raised by the Prosecutor,

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 1    Mr. McCloskey.  I would like to thank him, first and foremost.  But as I

 2    am defending myself, I don't wish to talk to the Prosecutor, and I refuse

 3    to talk to Carla Del Ponte, too, because there was no purpose to that

 4    meeting, and I had the right to refuse a meeting.  And I can tell you here

 5    and now that I don't wish to speak to the Prosecutor about the issues that

 6    he wanted to discuss with me, which are not linked to these proceedings

 7    and the trial.

 8            Secondly, I don't wish to discuss any matters or any plea

 9    bargaining or anything like that or any deals, and I don't have anything

10    to discuss with the Prosecution until the question of my arrest has been

11    solved, because I cannot build proper proceedings on the basis of the fact

12    that I was not arrested properly.

13            Now, if I am presumed innocent, how can I believe in what we

14    discuss if, at the beginning, at the starting point, we show a lack of

15    understanding and use certain things that are not -- that do not

16    correspond to the truth?

17            So could you bear that in mind, please?

18            JUDGE PROST:  I will certainly bear in mind that, Mr. Tolimir, and

19    the whole of our discussion today, and I re-emphasise the Trial Chamber

20    shares your concern about the serious allegations you have raised with

21    respect to your arrest.  The issue has not been dealt with, but will be

22    dealt with in due course.  So I will certainly keep in mind all of the

23    matters that you have raised today.

24            If there's nothing further from the Prosecution or from you,

25    Mr. Tolimir, and you apparently have no other matters you wish to bring to

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 1    my attention, especially regarding your health, I will simply close, once

 2    again, with exhorting you again to please consider following the requests

 3    of the medical authorities, in terms of your medication.  I know that

 4    you've discussed this issue at length, but I simply add my voice to the

 5    request, for your own health interests, that you do comply with the

 6    requests of the medical doctors who are advising you.

 7            And with that, there is nothing further for today.  We will have

 8    another Status Conference in due course.  Mr. Tolimir, you will be

 9    notified in advance, as you were this time, about a potential Status

10    Conference in the future.

11            Otherwise, we are adjourned for the afternoon.

12            Mr. Tolimir, did you have something you wish to say?

13            THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I do.

14            I would like to ask you to let me know in advance and not two

15    hours before the Status Conference, about when the Status Conference will

16    take place.  So please enable me to have enough time to contact my legal

17    adviser, which is something that I have a right to do, just like anybody

18    else defending themselves.

19            And I ask this time, too, that my legal adviser comes to The Hague

20    so that I can talk to him before I appear at the Status Conference.  That

21    was not allowed.  And I understand you question my right to defend myself,

22    but that was a right accorded to me by the Statute.  So please don't -- I

23    don't want to make it that my health is a problem here.  My health is not

24    the problem.  I am in very good health.  The problem is you don't want to

25    deal with other problems related to my arrest, and then you wish to bring

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 1    to the fore my health and to question my discretionary rights.

 2            My health has not influenced my work in any way.

 3            Thank you.

 4            JUDGE PROST:  We have your points on those issues.

 5            We are adjourned, and I wish everyone a good afternoon and

 6    weekend.

 7            Thank you.

 8                          --- Whereupon the Status Conference concluded

 9                          at 4.24 p.m.