100415ED

Page 1179

1 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us who that person was

2 affiliated to at that time, which institution that person worked for at

3 the time?

4 A. I can't remember that.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think, for the sake of the record, you should

6 mention -- you should state that the full name of this person is

7 Peter Cornelis Stephanus Staal, and I think the family name is Staal. Is

8 that correct?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, as we know, the witness does

12 understand English. This is also -- I believe the original is in Dutch,

13 as we can -- may be able to tell, because there should be a signature.

14 So I don't know how much detail he's going into it, but it would be a

15 courtesy to the witness. I'm sorry, I may be mistaken on that. So if we

16 find the Dutch, we'll let you know.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

18 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 I just wanted to know who the statement was provided to and what

21 was that person's capacity. I just needed to know that in order to

22 understand whether that person, who took the statement, could appreciate

23 the witness's statement fully, whether he was familiar with the situation

24 that the witness was testifying about. Thank you.

25 Q. However, I'm sorry, I did not receive an answer. Could I please

Page 1180

1 be given an answer to my question?

2 A. Could you please repeat the question one more time so I know

3 exactly what you want to know?

4 Q. I want to know, the statement that you provided on the 29th

5 September 1995, which is before you on the screen, was it provided to an

6 official who was a member of the police, the military, the judiciary in

7 Holland? Thank you. And where were you at the time when you provided

8 your statement on the 29th September 1995? Thank you.

9 A. As far as I remember, I was at the barracks,

10 Johan Willem Friso Barracks.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was the person Mr. Staal?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I remember correctly, it was

13 somebody from the Koninklijke Marechaussee, the military police, the

14 Dutch military police.

15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Just briefly, that policeman from the Dutch military police, did

17 he inform you that you were providing that statement for the purpose of

18 the Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and that that statement could be

19 used there?

20 A. No reference was made to it at that time. I wasn't told that at

21 the time.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you please also tell us, before you went to

23 Srebrenica, before you were deployed there, did you know anything about

24 Srebrenica, about the ratio of forces in the battle-field, who was

25 involved in combat there? Were you explained what the mandate of the

Page 1181

1 United Nations was in Srebrenica and also what the mandate of your unit

2 was before you were deployed in Srebrenica? Thank you.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to the multifaceted -- that's a very

4 complex-faceted question, which if it can be asked in parts, I think it's

5 fair, but that -- it's impossible to answer a question like that in that

6 way.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not fully in agreement with you,

8 Mr. McCloskey. He asked if this witness knew anything about Srebrenica.

9 It was a question not about the facts, but if he was told about the

10 facts, and what was his knowledge at that time.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, my -- that, of course, is a very

12 big question about perhaps the history of the peoples, and then he got

13 specific in the same question and asked about the UN mandate, which is

14 very specific and potentially very different than the history of

15 Srebrenica, what he knows about it. So if he wants -- the answer, we

16 won't know if it's history that he's learned about or the mandate. We

17 won't know from his answer, unless we try to clarify that. That was my

18 only point. Fair questions. There's a difference, in my view, between

19 the mandate that his forces had and what he knew about Srebrenica before

20 he went.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, that was not the question:

22 "Were you explained what the mandate of the United Nations was in

23 Srebrenica?"

24 "Were you explained," this was the question for the witness, and

25 I think this is the right of the accused to ask this question.

Page 1182

1 Could you tell us what you were told at that time.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During a training period, we were

3 reasonably informed of the situation and the situation -- the

4 geographical situation, the various parties, and of course we also

5 received the mandate of the United Nations, and we were informed of that.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

7 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, when you testified in the Blagojevic and Jokic

10 case, on page 1015, to the Prosecutor's question about your duties and

11 tasks in Srebrenica between January and July 1995, you answered that you

12 mostly went on patrols. And then on page 1016, when you were asked what

13 the purpose of the patrolling was, your answer was whether the two

14 warring sides were engaged in any conflicts and whether a cease-fire was

15 being observed. Do you remember those two questions, and do you remember

16 your answers to them?

17 A. I remember the questions. I don't exactly remember what I said

18 at the time.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. I just wanted to jog your memory

20 about that trial.

21 And now please answer this: Did you testify -- or did you

22 provide a statement to the Ministry of Defence when the Ministry of

23 Defence carried out an investigation among your fellow soldiers about the

24 events in Srebrenica? Thank you.

25 A. Just a moment. I'm re-reading the question.

Page 1183

1 At the time, we were asked questions by the Ministry of Defence

2 about our stay there.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen.

4 I would like to present a report compiled by the Ministry of

5 Defence. The document number is 1D71. Could the Court please produce

6 document 1D71. I would like to ask the witness whether he was familiar

7 with the report and the findings of the Dutch government with regard to

8 the events in Srebrenica?

9 A. I am aware of the document, but I don't know its contents.

10 Q. Thank you. Just for the transcript, do you know that on the 4th

11 of October, 1995, in Assen, this report by the Ministry of Defence was

12 published, it was based on the statements of Dutch soldiers and officers

13 who were part of the mission in Srebrenica? Thank you.

14 A. The fact that it was the 4th of October, 1995, that's quite

15 possible. But the rest, yes, the rest is very clear.

16 Q. Do you agree with the fact -- or, rather, was your statement

17 enclosed or was it taken into account when the Ministry of Defence

18 published this report? Did they take your statement into account when

19 they compiled the report and then published it?

20 A. As I said earlier on, I'm aware of the document. But I've never

21 read it, personally, so I really can't say more about it.

22 Q. Thank you. Just for the transcript, can we then state that

23 you've not had an occasion to familiarise yourself with this document,

24 produced by the Ministry of Defence, as a report about the events that

25 took place in Srebrenica in 1995? Thank you.

Page 1184

1 A. It's not the fact that I didn't have the opportunity, but the

2 fact that I did not want to read it.

3 Q. Thank you. Since you have not read this report, I'm going to

4 quote some of the things from this document which are of some relevance

5 for the cross-examination. As a matter of fact, I'm just going to jog

6 your memory about some things.

7 You said that you --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the part of the

9 question.

10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] On page 10 of the document, in

11 paragraph 2.23, which is also page 10 in English and page 13 in the

12 Serbian, could this please be shown on the screen?

13 Q. A reference is made about the mandate of the UNPROFOR in

14 Srebrenica, and it says as follows, and I quote from paragraph 2.23.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you can pause a little bit and wait

16 for the moment it will appear on the screen. It is helpful for the

17 interpreters and the witness.

18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. If you

19 agree, I will move on with my question. Thank you.

20 Q. I will now read out point 2.23 :

21 "The DutchBat was entrusted with the following tasks based on the

22 above-mentioned agreement on the cease-fire and resolution."

23 In other words, this is part of the agreement between the

24 Government of the Netherlands.

25 Under 2.23(a):

Page 1185

1 "To monitor compliance with the ceasefire."

2 "(b) To disarm the BiH."

3 And:

4 "(c) To support the provisions of humanitarian aid."

5 I should also explain to you, Mr. Groenewegen, that we're only

6 going to be discussing here the mandate as described under (b), in other

7 words, to disarm the BiH, because it is stated here that that was within

8 your mandate. Could you please now answer the question?

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the question? It was not

10 recorded because of interpretation problems.

11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, could you please tell us what measures were

13 taken in Srebrenica in order to disarm BiH members? That will be my

14 question, and of course I expect to give -- I expect you to give us your

15 view, as a private.

16 A. Well, the only thing I can give you is my position as a soldier.

17 During that semester we carried out patrols regularly, and it was only on

18 three or four occasions that we encountered BiH members with weapons or

19 in training. And insofar as we tried to do anything, it was very hard to

20 do anything because there were dangers of minefields. And these people,

21 we couldn't find them. When we attempted to find them, it was very hard

22 to locate them.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. Just tell us now, in the course of

24 your patrols and in those missions, how far were you from positions of

25 the BH Army, or members of the BH Army, or the positions of the

Page 1186

1 28th Division that was located in Srebrenica and its surroundings? Thank

2 you.

3 A. I suppose you mean the people we saw carrying weapons around

4 there.

5 Q. Well, let me clarify. Did you have to send the report on where

6 units of the BH Army were deployed in the territory that you were keeping

7 under control and whether they were complying with the agreement on the

8 cease-fire? Thank you.

9 A. In my personal experience, no.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. Can you please just tell us, did you

11 personally take part in the patrols, and were there any instances where

12 your patrol, of which you were a member, actually disarmed a member of

13 the BH Army? Thank you.

14 A. I was never present during patrols where people were being

15 disarmed.

16 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, since you were monitoring the

17 implementation of the cease-fire and disarming, did you ever get

18 information from your colleagues or from those who assigned you to tasks

19 that members of the BH Army left or went out of the demilitarised zone,

20 and that from outside the demilitarised zone they would actually take

21 certain actions?

22 A. During the six months we stayed there, I was never being told

23 anything of the sort. I only heard such things after I had returned.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. If you allow me, I would like to

25 read a statement by your commander, the DutchBat Battalion,

Page 1187

1 Thomas Karremans, who assigned tasks to all of you. I will quote his

2 words in Blagojevic/Jokic case on page 11165 [as interpreted] of the

3 transcript. Thank you.

4 Thomas Karremans, in his testimony in the Blagojevic/Jokic case,

5 on page 1165 of the transcript, stated the following, I quote:

6 "From time to time, Muslim fighters would leave the enclave and

7 return on the same night. Sometimes we could hear shooting outside the

8 enclave, and usually a day or two later we would be informed by the other

9 side that something had happened, that there had been an incident."

10 My question is this: Did you ever take part in any action in

11 order to try to prevent BH Army members to leave the demilitarised zone

12 and then to launch attacks from outside the zone against the Serb

13 civilian population and Serb soldiers around Srebrenica? Thank you.

14 A. I never took part in such actions.

15 Q. Thank you. And do you know whether any such actions were ever

16 taken? Thank you.

17 A. I can't say anything about that.

18 Q. Thank you. Did the soldiers in your unit or your complement ever

19 receive any information from your superior command, or from the

20 civilians, or from the other side, on Muslim Army activities outside the

21 safe area of Srebrenica?

22 A. I have heard things said about it, but on very rare occasions.

23 But we never got any official information from our official sources.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. Do you remember, by any chance, why

25 a conflict erupted on the eve of the fall of Srebrenica at the

Page 1188

1 check-point in the Zeleni Jadar area, and was that close to the

2 observation post where you served? Thank you.

3 A. I can't say anything about that because I don't know the name

4 Zeleni Jadar. It doesn't say anything to me.

5 Q. Thank you. And do you know that the BH Army in Srebrenica, as

6 early as January 1995, forbade members of the DutchBat to patrol in the

7 area known under the name of --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the name. Could

9 the accused please repeat it? Interpreter's note: Bandera Triangle.

10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11 Q. In the area known as the Bandera Triangle. Thank you. The name

12 is Bandera Triangle, and I asked the witness whether he knew that the

13 Muslims had forbidden the DutchBat to patrol that area called or known

14 under the name of Bandera Triangle. Thank you.

15 A. If that was truly the case, if it was forbidden, I was never

16 informed of that.

17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness now

18 be shown document 1D71, page 15, 15, paragraph 2.40. Thank you.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the right page number is 14 instead of

20 15, but we have paragraph 2.40 on the screen.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. All that

22 matters is that we actually have that very paragraph before us.

23 Q. And here it says -- and I would like to read out,

24 Mr. Groenewegen, a portion of this paragraph to remind you of the events.

25 Thank you.

Page 1189

1 "The BH Army, on the 21st of January, announced restrictions in

2 the UN's freedom of movement in what is known as the Bandera Triangle

3 after the BSA had taken up positions directly on the enclave boundary.

4 The battalion," and here they're referring to your battalion, "decided to

5 ignore the restrictions and entered the prohibited area with three

6 patrols on the 27th of January.

7 "This resulted in a response from the BH Army, who held

8 approximately 100 DutchBat personnel hostage between 27 and 31st January.

9 After this incident, the battalion no longer patrolled in the Bandera

10 Triangle."

11 My question for you is this, Mr. Groenewegen: Do you know

12 anything about this document and this event? Do you have any personal

13 knowledge of this event because you were in Srebrenica at the time?

14 Thank you.

15 A. It is true I was in Srebrenica at the time, but I only heard that

16 colleagues were taken hostage. I heard about that. But Bandera

17 Triangle, I don't really know, and I wasn't present, myself, at the time.

18 Q. Thank you. Then we will not dwell on this anymore, since you

19 have no personal knowledge.

20 Could you now tell us something else? On several occasions, you

21 mentioned the theft of UN equipment during your stay in Srebrenica in

22 1995. Could you now please describe how this came about, and what

23 measures did you then take once you established that some equipment had

24 been stolen? Thank you.

25 A. For the moment, I only remember one case where there was theft.

Page 1190

1 It was a theft of petrol from OP Mike.

2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us anything about that incident, and

3 were Dutch soldiers involved in that theft or was the petrol actually

4 taken by force? Thank you.

5 A. It was during a period when one of my colleagues was standing

6 watch, and several jerry cans of petrol were taken away. People broke

7 into the place and took the jerry cans away.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. Could you now tell me this: In the

9 Popovic case, on page 2999 of the transcript, in response to Defence

10 counsel's question, you said that the local people in Srebrenica pointed

11 out that the local mafia headquarters was in Pale. Could you please

12 confirm that here, and can you clarify that, because Pale is far away

13 from Srebrenica, or was there some other Pale that they were actually

14 referring to? Thank you.

15 A. Well, first, I don't remember ever saying that there was a

16 headquarters -- mafia headquarters in Pale. I don't remember saying

17 that.

18 Q. Thank you. But that is what is stated in transcript on page 2999

19 in the Popovic case. But thank you. Since you can't recall this, there

20 is no need to dwell on it. Let's not waste any time.

21 So my next question --

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: It does not say that on that page, so I think

23 it's unfair of him to be communicating this to the witness. It was in a

24 question from one of the accused -- Defence lawyers about Pale, so I

25 don't know what the purpose of that little misstatement was.

Page 1191

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir told us he doesn't want to dwell on

2 this issue any longer. He can carry on. We have your intervention on

3 the record.

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Well, in response to what the

5 Prosecutor said, I said in response to the question of one of the Defence

6 counsel, you confirmed that the people of Srebrenica actually pointed out

7 that the staff of the local mafia was in Pale, and I was just asking the

8 witness if he can describe what Pale that is a reference to, because Pale

9 is quite far from Srebrenica, and whether there was another place that

10 they also called Pale. Thank you.

11 Now I will move on to my next question.

12 Q. You mentioned here specifically the theft of petrol in

13 jerry cans. How did the DutchBat safe-guard its equipment in order to

14 prevent it from being stolen? Thank you.

15 A. DutchBat has several locations, so I can only say what happened

16 at OP Mike, where the theft took place.

17 Q. Thank you. What I'm concerned with is only what measures were

18 taken, so I will move on to another set of questions if you feel that

19 there is no need for you to describe this theft.

20 Can you tell us, please, when was it that the Muslims began

21 arriving in Potocari? And if you feel that you want to describe the

22 previous question -- that you want to answer it, you can also include it

23 in the answer to this question. Thank you.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the form of the question. That is

25 argumentative.

Page 1192

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This was really a set of different questions.

2 Please break that up and put one question after the other. What is now

3 your concrete question?

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. I only had one

5 question.

6 Q. Could the witness confirm for us when it was that Muslim

7 civilians began to arrive in the Potocari base in 1995? And then I just

8 added to that that if the witness feels he wants to answer the previous

9 question, he can. Thank you.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not necessary to repeat the whole part. I

11 asked you to break up this whole part and you put one question to the

12 witness, and there you should stop.

13 Witness, you were asked to confirm when it was that Muslim

14 civilians began to arrive at the Potocari base in 1995. Can you answer

15 that question?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In earlier declarations, if I

17 remember correctly, I quoted the date of July 10th.

18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. Can you tell us, did these Muslim civilians arrive from their

20 villages in the area to Potocari on UN vehicles, whether they picked them

21 up en route, or whether they actually transported them there? Thank you.

22 A. Well, at first people reached us on foot. They arrived from the

23 city of Srebrenica. And on one occasion, I saw a UN truck which was full

24 of refugees.

25 Q. Thank you. Did those first refugees who fled from Srebrenica and

Page 1193

1 came to Potocari arrive on UN trucks? Thank you.

2 A. No. Again, the first people I saw arriving in Potocari all came

3 on foot.

4 Q. Thank you. You said a few moments ago also -- in your reply, you

5 said that they were also brought there on UN trucks. Is that correct or

6 was the interpretation that I received incorrect?

7 A. No. To be clear, a lot of people came in the direction of

8 Potocari. I saw all of them on foot. And later on that day, I saw one

9 truck that was filled with refugees.

10 [Technical difficulties]

11 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I seem to have a

12 computer crash. It will take a moment.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, we see it not recording any longer so that

14 we must break and try to find out the reason for that.

15 THE COURT REPORTER: Would it be a good time to take the morning

16 recess? I don't know how long it's going to take me.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are, Mr. Tolimir, approaching the time for the

18 first break. I think this is a convenient moment to resolve the

19 technical problems. We adjourn now and will resume five minutes before

20 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I see you're on your feet.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, excuse me.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I hope everything is working now with the record.

Page 1194

1 Okay, very good.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I just learned from Mr. Gajic that perhaps the

3 plan is to continue with this witness for the rest of the day. If that's

4 the case, we have a very sensitive witness waiting, and it would be nice

5 if we could get an idea if that is the case.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you give us some information

7 about your indication?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 I need a whole day for this witness, but I will use as much time

10 as you give me.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You're saying you need the whole day. This is

12 your right in cross-examination. But we don't want to find us in the

13 position that all of a sudden the cross-examination has finished and

14 there is still time available. But you are of the opinion that this will

15 not happen?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that in the next two or

17 three hours, I will finish, or maybe an hour before. If the Prosecutor

18 needs that one hour at the end of the day, I will hurry up and finish

19 within two hours. Thank you.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Does that help you, Mr. McCloskey?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will be prepared, in any event. We have an

22 investigator that can fill a gap, if there is a gap. This sensitive

23 witness, I think, given what the general said, we would like to send him

24 home, and we'll keep the investigator as the gap-filler potentially.

25 We've informed the Defence that we have an investigator for just these

Page 1195

1 reasons.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That sounds very practical. At a later stage of

3 our trial, and I hope we can clarify that quite soon, we will have more

4 sitting days per week so that these problems are not so complicated.

5 Thank you very much.

6 Please carry on with your questioning, Mr. Tolimir.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, you have just told us that you saw a UN truck

9 full of refugees. Could you please tell us what day was that when you

10 saw that truck? Thank you.

11 A. That must have been on 10 July.

12 Q. Thank you. Was the Army of Republika Srpska deployed in Potocari

13 at that time? Thank you.

14 A. I hadn't seen them yet at that moment.

15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness

16 please be shown 1D72, page 2 in English, the last paragraph, and page 3

17 in the Serbian, second paragraph. Thank you.

18 Page 2, last paragraph, please look at it. Thank you.

19 Q. I am going to read for you:

20 "On the 10th of July, 1995, around 1600 hours,

21 Sergeant Van Schaik ordered us to leave the shelter. We were told to

22 line up together with the infantry in order to escort the refugees who

23 had started arriving at the base."

24 Can we now turn to the following page in the English version,

25 please.

Page 1196

1 "I'm going to draw a green line to show where we stood. When I

2 say 'refugees,' I mean Muslim refugees. At that moment, there were no

3 BSA members at the compound in Potocari.

4 "On that same day, from the direction of Bravo Company, four-ton

5 UN trucks arrived. The trucks were packed with refugees, men, women, and

6 children. In the course of one day, the compound filled up with

7 refugees. According to my estimate, there were about 2.000 people there.

8 Bravo Company was stationed in Srebrenica.

9 "At one point, we could no longer cope with such an influx of

10 refugees, and we had to hold the people back, to keep them off the

11 compound. We allowed sick people to enter the base so that they could be

12 attended to. We were up and about nearly the whole night."

13 Thank you. This was a quote from your statement. I want you to

14 say whether you remember that you stated that in your statement. Thank

15 you.

16 A. I remember well that I stated that, yes.

17 Q. Thank you. On the 10th of July, did more refugees come to the

18 compound where you were stationed? Did your superiors order you to

19 receive them and accept them in the way you describe herein? Thank you.

20 A. As it was described is the most accurate version of the course of

21 events.

22 Q. Thank you. I will leave it at that.

23 Can we now talk about the Blagojevic/Jokic transcript page 1020.

24 This is where you describe your duties and responsibility with regard to

25 the refugees. And on line 7 and 8, you answer, and I quote:

Page 1197

1 "... to make sure that people do not get lost and not to take the

2 roads that were not intended for their use."

3 My question is this: What roads were intended for them and what

4 roads were banned for them? Can you answer that, please?

5 A. There were no specifically prohibited roads, but from my

6 perception, those in charge wanted to know where everybody was. That's

7 why it was directed somewhat.

8 Q. Thank you. With regard to your responsibilities at the base, and

9 we're talking about the night between 11th and 12th on, page 1021, line

10 16 of the same transcript, you said, and I quote:

11 "... to help people who sought our assistance."

12 How did you assist them? What did the assistance consist of?

13 Thank you.

14 A. At first, we had to determine whether people truly needed medical

15 assistance or urgently needed other types of assistance, and that way we

16 were able to triage the people according to urgency.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, the Muslim civilians who

18 gathered in Potocari, were they there in order to be transported to

19 Tuzla, Sarajevo, and other areas under the control of the Muslim Army?

20 Thank you.

21 A. I know nothing about that.

22 Q. Thank you. In the Blagojevic and Jokic case, when you talked

23 about the evacuation on page 1025, you say the following, and I quote:

24 "The first ones who left were those who wanted to get on the

25 buses of their own will. Those who did not want to get on the buses

Page 1198

1 withdrew, and they were then forced to get on the buses."

2 Thank you, end of quote. My question is this: Why did you state

3 that for the first time in the Blagojevic/Jokic case, despite the fact

4 that you had had plenty of opportunities to talk about that even earlier,

5 you had plenty of opportunities to say that some people had been forced

6 to get on the buses? Thank you. To be very specific, you never made it

7 part of your statements. You mentioned that for the first time in the

8 Blagojevic/Jokic case and never before. Thank you.

9 A. There are most likely other facts that were not mentioned, so

10 please excuse me.

11 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, did you personally, as a

12 member of the Dutch Battalion in Potocari, help with the evacuations of

13 those who had gathered in Potocari? Was that your official role or did

14 you do it of your own accord?

15 A. No, our superiors told us to do that.

16 Q. Thank you. My next question: Did you ever hear from anybody,

17 through an interpreter or personally, that some of the Muslims who had

18 gathered in Potocari requested to stay in Srebrenica? Thank you.

19 A. Not as far as I know.

20 Q. Thank you. In the transcript, page 1026, the same case,

21 Blagojevic and the other, you say on page 1026, lines 13 and 15, and I

22 quote:

23 "We talked to some of the people among the crowd, and they were

24 convinced that they would be better off," and a reference here is to the

25 Muslims, "to stay behind and to fight before they left voluntarily."

Page 1199

1 My question is this: Were those your personal internal

2 discussions or were those discussions conducted officially on the part of

3 the representatives of the Dutch Battalion and the United Nations, whom

4 you represented in Srebrenica?

5 A. No, such cases concerned personal discussions.

6 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us the day when such

7 discussions were conducted? Was it on the 10th, the 11th, the 12th?

8 Approximately, what day was that when you talked about that?

9 A. I can't remember exactly.

10 Q. Thank you. Did such discussion go on for all the three days or

11 just one of the days? Could you give us some indication, in light of the

12 fact that you spoke about that at the previous trial in which you

13 testified? Thank you.

14 A. It would probably have been one of those days.

15 Q. Thank you. Did your battalion command and you, yourself, know at

16 the time that on the 11th, in the evening, the Muslims had already

17 started breaking through towards Tuzla and that they invited all the

18 others who didn't want to join them to make their way towards the

19 UNPROFOR compound? Were you aware of that? Thank you.

20 A. No. We had the impression that things were happening, but that

21 was the only thing.

22 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor showed us a clip depicting your

23 commander and representatives of the Muslims, who met on the 11th, in the

24 evening, and the Muslims stated they were not in a position to inform

25 their commanders that Mladic had proclaimed a cease-fire and that he

Page 1200

1 invited them to come for talks on the following day, on the 12th. Did

2 you know any of that? Were you aware of any of that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. Were you aware of the negotiations in Bratunac which

5 involved your commander, General Mladic, and Muslim representatives,

6 thank you, on the 11th, in the evening, that actually it was your

7 commander who had requested to meet with General Mladic? Thank you.

8 A. There again, I wasn't aware of that at that point in time.

9 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, for the transcript, when

10 did you learn that your commander had requested to meet with

11 General Mladic and to attend any negotiations between civilian

12 representatives and the representatives of the Army of Republika Srpska?

13 Thank you.

14 A. Well, for me, I became aware of it much later, after the

15 broadcast of the Dutch Battery -- sorry, after the deployment of the

16 Dutch Battery.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Correction by the interpreter.

18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you. On the 10th, when you saw the trucks that had arrived

20 in Potocari, did you perhaps think that the Army of Republika Srpska was

21 aware of the huge numbers of the civilians who had gathered in Potocari,

22 and were you afraid that they might become a target for their artillery?

23 Thank you.

24 A. Yes, I certainly had that thought.

25 Q. In keeping with that, did you receive a task, an order from your

Page 1201

1 superiors, from your commanders, from those who were in command?

2 A. As far as I reply, the only thing I remember is that we, as

3 Blue Helmets, had to remain amongst the population so that we could be

4 seen as being present.

5 Q. Thank you. Was that your personal choice, or your personal

6 opinion, or wish, or estimate, or was that, rather, an order coming from

7 your commander?

8 A. It was a combination of everything you just quoted.

9 Q. Thank you. And now I'm going to show you something that you will

10 certainly remember.

11 In the Popovic case, on page 2967 of the transcript, you

12 testified that your objective was to prevent conflicts between the two

13 groups, the civilians, on the one side, and the RSK Army [as interpreted]

14 on the other side. We're talking about the time when the

15 RSK [as interpreted] arrived in Potocari. Could you please tell us when

16 that was? When was the first time you noticed the presence of the Army

17 of Republika Srpska in Potocari? Thank you.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: We just have just a slight correction. We need

20 to make sure we've got the VRS. The RSK is the Republika Srpska Krajina,

21 and they're not involved in this. We just need to get that translation

22 correct. Thank you. I'm sure that wasn't in the question.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see your agreement, Mr. Tolimir.

24 Could it be perhaps helpful to have this portion of the testimony

25 in Popovic on the screen to avoid any conflict about interpretation?

Page 1202

1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I accept

2 this well-meant suggestion. I can't see the English -- I can't read the

3 English transcript, and there's no Serbian transcript, so I have not

4 checked that either. Thank you.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have page 2967 on the screen?

6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you have the 65 ter number of

8 that document? No, you don't have. Okay. Then just carry on, but be

9 always careful with the correct quotation.

10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm just going to ask

11 the witness whether he remembers that in that case he testified that it

12 was their task to separate the civilians from the members of the Army of

13 Republika Srpska when the troops of the Army of Republika Srpska arrived

14 in Potocari.

15 Q. Do you remember that you stated that in the Popovic case? And

16 that's the transcript that I was referring to.

17 A. Yes, I do remember that --

18 Q. Thank you. In any case, we have established that I didn't say

19 anything that is not in the transcript. Thank you very much.

20 And now I'll move on to another group of questions referring to

21 the witness's statement, the one that he used here and confirmed that

22 it's the same thing that he had previously stated in the Popovic case.

23 Mr. Groenewegen, you have stated before this Trial Chamber and

24 you mentioned a killing in your statement, the killing of a soldier by a

25 house which you marked in a map that was shown to you by the OTP. Do you

Page 1203

1 remember that?

2 A. I do remember that, but I'm not sure your question was put quite

3 correctly.

4 Q. Thank you. In your statement and in the transcript, we read

5 about the killing of a soldier by a house where he was interviewed.

6 Would that set the record straight? Is my question now more precise, is

7 it correct?

8 A. In as far as I stated that, it's not the killing of a soldier.

9 It's the killing of a civilian.

10 Q. Thank you. I accept your interpretation. Therefore, you're

11 saying that he was a civilian. I suppose that you say that because he

12 wore civilian clothes. But judging by his age, I suppose that he could

13 have been a militarily able-bodied person. When you saw him, would that

14 have been your opinion as well, just based on looking at him, his

15 appearance and his age? Would you say that he was a militarily

16 able-bodied man?

17 A. I don't think I am the one who has to judge on that, because

18 anybody of that age could have been a military, for that matter.

19 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, was there anyone else with you when

20 you eye-witnessed this event ?

21 A. No, there was no one else from DutchBat next to me at that point

22 in time.

23 Q. Thank you. On this transcript, you said a little earlier that

24 one of your assignments was to keep the civilians and the

25 Republika Srpska Army soldiers separate, and then you said that you

Page 1204

1 witnessed the killing of a civilian. Since it was your mandate to do

2 what you described, can you tell us whether you have ever reported this

3 incident, and to whom, and when?

4 A. When you're referring to the incident, are you speaking of a

5 report I should have made of this murder?

6 Q. That's correct. I was asking you about when it was that you

7 reported this killing to your superior command because it was your

8 mandate to keep the civilians separate from the soldiers. Thank you.

9 A. That evening, I reported for the first time on that incident, and

10 that has been noted in the official document.

11 Q. Thank you. So there is an official document in respect of that.

12 Now, in the Blagojevic case, on page 1036, lines 10 through 13,

13 the Blagojevic/Jokic case, in response to the Prosecutor's question, and

14 I quote his question:

15 "Did you at any time have occasion to report what you had seen?"

16 In reply to that, you said, I quote:

17 "No, not on that same day."

18 And then when you were asked when, on line 15, you said :

19 "On the next morning."

20 So which of the two is correct, what you've stated today or what

21 you stated in the Blagojevic/Jokic case? Thank you.

22 A. Thank you to have freshened my memory. It is true that I only

23 reported the next morning.

24 Q. Thank you. Was there any reason for you to report that as late

25 as the next morning because the incident involved a murder? Thank you.

Page 1205

1 A. That is right. At that time, we were rather busy because there

2 were so many refugees around us, and for that reason I did not think of

3 reporting immediately, and that is why I only reported the next morning.

4 Q. Thank you. Can you then tell us now whether any measures had

5 been taken by the DutchBat organs to whom you reported that in your

6 official capacity? Thank you.

7 A. I'm not certain I understood your question correctly.

8 Q. I asked just a moment ago the following: Did your commander, or

9 the competent officer to whom you reported the incident, take any

10 measures regarding that incident? Did he inform the other party, the

11 other side? Did he ask for any report as to what had happened? Thank

12 you. Was there any measure taken? Thank you.

13 A. Apart from the fact that a report was made of -- minutes were

14 taken of my report, I don't know whether any action was taken.

15 Q. Thank you. The reason I ask this is that those individuals who

16 committed that criminal act were -- they could have abused their weapons,

17 their position, their being in the army, so if it had been reported, then

18 their superior officers could have taken appropriate measures. Thank

19 you.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to --

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. So then please tell me --

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- statements of reasons. That's not necessary.

24 I would ask that he be required to ask questions.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's correct. You must not give a reason for a

Page 1206

1 question. Carry on.

2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Well, I have said this, and

3 Mr. McCloskey actually interrupted me when I was framing my next

4 question.

5 Q. What would the DutchBat -- or the unit that was there, what would

6 they do on such an occasion if a DutchBat member committed that kind of

7 criminal act? That was the gist and the drift of my question. Thank

8 you.

9 A. I can't say anything about that. This is not part of the facts.

10 Q. Thank you. I was just asking you about standard practice. But

11 now let me ask you this: Did you have occasion to witness any instances

12 of suicide during your mission in Srebrenica? Thank you.

13 A. Only the consequences of -- only the consequences of suicide.

14 Q. Was that on those critical days or did that occur earlier?

15 A. I can't really say when it happened. I remember I observed it.

16 Q. Thank you. I cannot dwell on this any further because you can't

17 remember the event, but let's move on to the next question.

18 Was it your task to make a list of able-bodied men who arrived at

19 the compound in the period between the 10th and the 12th, able-bodied men

20 who arrived with a group of civilians?

21 A. No, that was never one of my tasks.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about that kind of task having

23 been assigned to anyone in the compound?

24 A. No.

25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness now

Page 1207

1 please be shown document 1D1, debriefing of the Ministry of Defence of

2 the Netherlands and Srebrenica -- correction, 1D16 -- or, rather, 1D74,

3 page -- I apologise, I misspoke. The document is document 1D71, page 56,

4 and the B/C/S version is page 74.

5 Can we please see paragraphs 15 and 16 of this document, or,

6 rather, 5.15 and 5.16. Thank you. I have it before me on the screen.

7 Q. It says here:

8 "Three refugees spoke for the others in the command. On the 13th

9 of July, at the request of the battalion command, they drew up a list of

10 239 men of fighting age present on the compound, with the intention of

11 submitting these later to the ICRS [as interpreted]. The battalion

12 command hoped that the ICRS [as interpreted] would then be able to

13 monitor these people and, if possible, to offer them some protection. At

14 least 60 people refused to be registered. An attempt to make a similar

15 list of refugees outside the compound failed, as both the refugee

16 representatives and the interpreters were threatened (verbally)."

17 In paragraph 6.25, only mention is made of that list being

18 forwarded to the North-East Sector in The Hague by the DutchBat Command

19 in Potocari. And it is also noted that the last refugees left the base

20 on the 13th of July. Thank you.

21 Has this helped jog your memory that there were attempts to

22 compile such a list on the compound or around it by members of the

23 civilian authorities or the Muslim authorities, and that your command had

24 a problem with that because the people who had sought refuge on the

25 compound actually opposed that? Thank you.

Page 1208

1 A. As far as I know, I was never informed of the existence of such a

2 list of persons. The only thing I can say is that the last persons left

3 on the 13th of July.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you see any representatives -- civilian

5 representatives in your compound? Thank you.

6 A. No, I wouldn't have recognised them as such.

7 Q. Thank you. In the debriefing of the Dutch Ministry of Defence,

8 it says that refugees threatened soldiers and that 60 of them refused to

9 be registered. Can you comment on that? What kind of threats were

10 these, threats by Muslims to each other and also to the soldiers who

11 tried to compile this list, thank you, in view of the fact that such a

12 list was submitted by your commander to the superiors? Thank you.

13 A. No, I admit I don't remember any of this.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think it was not a correct

15 quotation. In the report, it's only -- there's only written:

16 "... as both the refugee representatives and the interpreters

17 were threatened."

18 There's nothing about who threatened them. You, in your

19 question, you had a formulation that refugees threatened them. There's

20 nothing in this report. I just wanted to state that for the sake of the

21 record.

22 Please carry on.

23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Witness, do you know why interpreters had to get involved, in

25 view of the fact that Muslim refugees and members of the commissions

Page 1209

1 spoke the same language? Thank you.

2 A. I can't really give an opinion on that.

3 Q. Can you tell us, then, whether it is correct, as stated here in

4 the debriefing, that the battalion command had actually submitted this

5 report, this list, to the command at the Hague?

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. He doesn't know anything about this.

7 I think he said this four or five times, at least. So this fishing

8 expedition, while there's other witnesses, is really a waste of time.

9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

10 This witness confirmed that he was interviewed by the Ministry of

11 Defence in the Netherlands, and this debriefing was compiled based on

12 those statements, and I only wanted to know whether the witness knew

13 anything about this. And, Mr. President, if I stepped outside of the

14 boundaries or the scope of the examination-in-chief, I apologise. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, it was very clear that the witness

17 couldn't give any answer and any opinion on that, so please carry on and

18 not dwell on this any longer.

19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Witness, can you answer one question that I will put to you in

21 relation to document 1D72? That is your statement.

22 I would like the witness to be shown the penultimate page of that

23 document, where you state, and I will quote a portion of your

24 statement -- we will have it before us in a few moments. That's the

25 penultimate page, the one before last.

Page 1210

1 I quote:

2 "From that day onwards, on the 12th of July, there was no more --

3 there were no more threats to the Dutch Battalion -- there was no longer

4 any threat to DutchBat, and we could resume our normal duties at the

5 compound and get our breath back."

6 And now for my question. Can you tell us, please, what those

7 normal duties at the compound were and why you could finally sigh a

8 breath of relief?

9 A. Our normal activities were to -- were normal activities, but I

10 can't really give details because I don't remember exactly what we did

11 that day; probably make a list of the things we had, check where various

12 people were, and we had to also clear a number of things out. And the

13 fact that we got back -- our breath back, it means also that there were a

14 number of things we needed to tell each other.

15 Q. Thank you. Since you cannot comment on that any further, I will

16 move on to the next group of questions.

17 Could the witness now please be shown document 1D47. These are

18 proofing notes. 1D74. I apologise, I misspoke. So could we now please

19 show the witness 1D74, briefing notes for this witness compiled on the

20 19th of October, 2006.

21 I am not going to mention here the statements that you made for

22 the press. I'm not really interested in that. I only have this

23 question: The journalists who interviewed you, did they fairly report

24 the information that you provided them, because the Prosecutor said that

25 there were some errors in the report of what you had said to the

Page 1211

1 reporters when your words were published in the press? Thank you.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could he point out where the Prosecutor said

4 there were errors? I don't recall that. I thought it was the witness

5 that said there were errors, but I could be wrong.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I wonder as well where this portion you're

7 referring to --

8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I accept that. If Mr. McCloskey

9 states that the witness actually said that, then the witness can probably

10 tell us about it, because this was in his conversation with the

11 Prosecutor.

12 Q. So can the witness then tell us whether there were numerous

13 errors in the press reports when his words were reported? Thank you.

14 A. Yes, some words were, indeed, distorted. And according to the

15 press, things were said that I personally never said.

16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. This document, 1D74,

17 could we please have it on the screens, because I don't want the

18 impression to be left here that I'm trying to conceal anything. Well,

19 actually, we already have the document before us.

20 Q. And in the document, we can read the following on the first page:

21 "Before I step on a grass field, I think about it for a moment."

22 And then it follows Mr. Groenewegen stated that the reporter got

23 many of the details wrong or mixed up. In particular, he said that many

24 of the things that were reported in the press, he had heard from Muslims,

25 that he did not actually see them personally. He said that he had stated

Page 1212

1 to the journalists that for the first group of Serb soldiers who arrived

2 in the enclave, to him they appeared to be high on something, and that he

3 never said that they were stiff with cocaine, as reported in the article.

4 My question for the witness: Does it seem to you, because you

5 had occasion to be misquoted by the journalists, that at times

6 journalists were actually eager to report something even when it is

7 misquoted, but very often at the expense of the Serbs, in this case,

8 where you were saying something about Serb soldiers?

9 A. As for the reason why the press distorts things in an interview,

10 I couldn't tell you that.

11 Q. Thank you. Then just answer the following question, please.

12 Before you stated this for the press, did you have to obtain approval

13 from someone in the army, some command of the Dutch Army that was your

14 superior command, because at the time you were a private? Thank you.

15 A. I never received a press ban, so I never felt inhibited about

16 saying anything about that.

17 Q. Thank you. What period does this statement apply to, as was

18 conveyed by the journalists in your case here?

19 A. This concerns the period from approximately 10 July through

20 13 July.

21 Q. Thank you. Is it customary for soldiers to use narcotics, drugs,

22 and other such things in the Serbian Army and your army as well? Thank

23 you.

24 A. In the Dutch Army, definitely not. As for the other case, I

25 wouldn't know anything about that.

Page 1213

1 Q. Thank you. Was there another reason why the journalists

2 portrayed the matter as they did? Thank you.

3 A. Well, I couldn't say anything about that.

4 Q. Could you please answer another question, and that question does

5 not concern that particular subject. Did members of your unit, the unit

6 that you belonged to in Srebrenica, on the strength of the United Nations

7 Protection Forces, did they use weapons in any case throughout the

8 duration of your mandate in Srebrenica?

9 A. When you are referring to the use of weapons, do you mean

10 actually firing?

11 Q. Well, I suppose that weapons are only used for the purposes that

12 they are intended for. Thank you.

13 A. Well, simply bearing weapons will have an effect, so to assume

14 that a weapon is used only for shooting is somewhat premature.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you use live ammo when you carried out your

16 duties? Did you have any ammo? What kind of ammo did you have?

17 A. We -- or, rather, I personally carried a weapon, calibre 7.62.

18 Q. Did anybody in the unit, as far as you know, get to open fire

19 while on duty, while performing their tasks?

20 A. Well, during a patrol we were shot at on one occasion, and we

21 fired back in various ways.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you please give us some details of that event?

23 Who opened fire and from what side? Was that from the side of the Army

24 of Republika Srpska or from the side of the BiH Army? Thank you.

25 A. No, we were clearly shot at by positions outside the enclave, so

Page 1214

1 it must have been from the Serbs.

2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us something about the killing of an

3 UNPROFOR soldier in the safe zone of Srebrenica during those events,

4 immediately prior to those events, and immediately after those events?

5 Thank you.

6 A. No, I can't say anything, other than what may have been set forth

7 in possible documents, because I wasn't present there.

8 Q. Thank you. Did you hear that an UNPROFOR member had been killed

9 on duty? Did you hear it either from your superiors or from your peers?

10 Thank you.

11 A. Yes, that's the case.

12 Q. Can you tell us what you heard? Can you tell us, according to

13 what you heard, when had that happened and how?

14 A. Well, all we heard was that a colleague had been injured, and the

15 exact details were disclosed only later on.

16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what things were done subsequently

17 in respect of the killing of that soldier? What details were disclosed

18 only later on?

19 A. Well, at first we didn't know who it was, and later on data such

20 as who were they and where did it happen came.

21 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether that case was ever investigated

22 by the Dutch Ministry of Defence? Thank you.

23 A. Well, I'm not going to say anything about that. I can assume

24 that an investigation took place on that.

25 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, are you not able to answer

Page 1215

1 this question because of the nature of your former job or because of some

2 other secret involved in that? Is that a confidential matter?

3 A. Well, not immediately.

4 Q. I'm afraid I did not understand your answer properly. Could you

5 please be more specific and tell us why you can't answer my question?

6 A. Well, you're asking me about details of which I was not aware at

7 the time.

8 Q. Thank you. We can read that in the debriefing, and obviously

9 we're going to clarify the matter with those who were better informed.

10 That's why I will no longer dwell upon that with you and I'll move on to

11 another group of questions.

12 Could you please tell me where you stored the weapons that were

13 seized from the Muslims once Srebrenica was proclaimed a safe area? Was

14 it part of your mandate to safe-guard those weapons and prevent those

15 from whom they had been taken to get hold of them again? Thank you.

16 A. Well, all I can say about that is that I was aware that there was

17 a storage area in the city of Srebrenica where confiscated weapons were

18 supposed to be stored.

19 Q. Thank you. Did the DutchBat secure the depot or was it the BiH

20 Army that secured the depot? Thank you.

21 A. No, that was DutchBat.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you meet anybody in your battalion who was on

23 guard detail at that point? Do you know anything about that? Did

24 anybody you personally know provide guard service there?

25 A. No. The OP was responsible for that part of my enclave, and we

Page 1216

1 were hardly there.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: OP Bravo Company.

3 Bravo Company was responsible.

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. In the course of your mandate, in the course of your tour of

6 duty, were you ever in the vicinity of that place? Did you ever see the

7 place where the weapons were stored, and can you tell us, if you know,

8 how the place was secured?

9 A. No, I was never aware of that location.

10 Q. Thank you. When you first arrived, did your command tell you

11 that weapons were confiscated from the Muslims, that the Muslims kept on

12 insisting that the weapons be returned to them, but that the weapons were

13 safeguarded by the UNPROFOR because it was part of the UNPROFOR mandate?

14 Thank you.

15 A. At the time, all I was told was that there was such a location,

16 but, again, I don't know where it was.

17 Q. Thank you. Did you have any idea as to what weapons were stored

18 in that location? Thank you.

19 A. No. If any information was given on that, it was the calibres of

20 the weapons and self-made weapons.

21 Q. Thank you. Were those weapons stored in the Potocari compound

22 once the Muslims left Srebrenica?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Thank you. The Prosecution showed us a clip in which

25 Mr. Karremans, on the 11th, informed General Mladic that he had handed

Page 1217

1 over 300 rifles to Muslims. Were you aware of that or were any of the

2 DutchBat soldiers aware of that?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have a reference to the transcript on

4 that, if he's going to be making specifics references to it? There is a

5 transcript of all of those clips.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Well, you wanted me to

8 be as brief as possible. That's why I've speeded up. I didn't want to

9 show the clip that you showed, yourself. I just wanted to put a question

10 in reference to that clip and that refers to the part of the video-clip

11 where Mr. Karremans invited General Mladic to the Fontana, and

12 General Mladic says, What's up, why did you want to talk to me? And then

13 he told him why he wanted to talk to him. And then he told him that he

14 had handed over the weapons to the Muslims.

15 Do you need any further explanation or do you want me to show

16 that part of the clip, that portion of the clip? Thank you.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can solve this later. Thank you.

18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps we can clarify that very shortly.

20 Witness, could you tell us if you know anything about handing

21 over of weapons to the Bosnian Muslim Army?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was never informed of such --

23 of anything of the sort happening.

24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you, sir. Maybe we'll be able to clarify the matter with

Page 1218

1 those who were involved on another occasion.

2 And now I would like to move to a group of questions about the

3 NATO bombing. Do you know that a NATO Air Force opened fire on

4 Srebrenica while you were there? And if that is indeed the case, could

5 you please tell us who the NATO Air Force opened fire on, on what side?

6 A. As far as I know, there was no actual firing. The only thing

7 that happened, a number of flares were fired from the aircraft just to

8 frighten people, to scare them off.

9 Q. Thank you. On the eve of that day, on the 11th, were you

10 informed by a commander, as a member of the unit, that there would be a

11 NATO campaign in the part of the territory under your control? And in

12 that sense, were some of the troops withdrawn from the territory, some of

13 your troops?

14 A. We were told that F-16s were expected, and that would have been a

15 reason for us to sleep in the bunker.

16 Q. Just for the transcript, could you please tell us when you heard

17 that, and what night was it that you spent sleeping in the bunker in July

18 of that year?

19 A. It must have been the very evening when we were told that, and it

20 should have been the night of 10th to the 11th or maybe 11th to the 12th

21 of July.

22 Q. Thank you. What is the basis for your conclusion that it was

23 either/or, one date or the other?

24 A. Because it is 15 years back in time.

25 Q. Thank you. We will clarify that with those who can provide us

Page 1219

1 with more information, whose report we're going to read. Tell me, did

2 you personally see NATO aircraft and their actions or did you hear it

3 from somebody?

4 A. I did see an aircraft, myself. I can't say with 100 per cent

5 certainty that it -- which side it was on. I suppose it was a NATO

6 plane. And as far as I saw, they only dropped flares.

7 Q. Thank you. How far were you from the place where those flares

8 were dropped?

9 A. Do you want me to give an estimate of the height at which the

10 aircraft was?

11 Q. Thank you. Maybe you did not understand me. Maybe the

12 interpretation was wrong. I asked you how far you were from the place at

13 which the flares were dropped. Thank you.

14 A. I don't know where the flares fell. I only saw them being fired

15 from the aircraft. It must have been -- well, it can be a difference

16 between half a kilometre to one kilometre.

17 Q. Were you in Potocari at that time? Thank you.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And how did the population react to NATO sorties, and what were

20 their expectations in respect of the NATO Air Force sorties?

21 A. I don't even remember whether there was a reaction or what the

22 expectations could have been.

23 Q. Thank you. And you, as UNPROFOR members and members of the

24 Dutch Battalion, did you know who the actions were targeted against?

25 Were they targeted against the Serb Army or the Muslim Army?

Page 1220

1 A. Well, considering that the enclave was being invaded by the

2 Serbian side, I suppose that they wanted to fire at the Serbian

3 positions.

4 Q. Thank you. I asked you this to find out whether you had been

5 told to possibly expect reactions as a result of the NATO campaign and if

6 you had been told who the target of those actions was. Thank you.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Again, I have no problem with questions

8 associated with statements, but there was no question in that statement

9 that I could tell.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, what is your question?

11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. My question is this: Were battalion troops ever told what the

13 target of the aircraft campaign was and if they could possibly expect

14 reactions from that side as a result of the NATO campaign, against them?

15 A. No, I can't really answer that question.

16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Witness, we shall

17 indeed clarify all that with all those who were privy to that

18 information.

19 I'd like to thank you for your answers so far. I've tried to

20 eliminate some of the questions because of the answers you have provided.

21 And now I would kindly ask the Presiding Judge to admit the

22 reports, 1D71 and 1D -- 1D71 into evidence.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you tender the whole report or

24 the pages you used with this witness?

25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like to

Page 1221

1 tender the whole report, because that report will be presented to a

2 number of other witnesses who will be testifying about the contents of

3 the report, but I leave it in your hands. I would like to tender the

4 entire report into evidence. Thank you.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

6 Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Mr. President, I would agree with

8 General Tolimir on that. It's a short report, and it will be used

9 throughout, I would believe, with the officers in charge, and so I think

10 it's probably a good idea for you to have that now. It's not one of

11 these massive reports, and it would put everything in context as well.

12 Pardon me.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

14 The entire report will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D20, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you tender other documents you

17 have used?

18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. There's something

19 pending from yesterday. I suppose that I should have tendered the

20 informal statement that I presented to the witness yesterday. My legal

21 assistant will send you a submission on that statement. Our witness that

22 we heard yesterday was protected, so I wouldn't go into many details of

23 the issues with regard to that document and the submissions that my legal

24 assistant is going to send you.

25 I take this opportunity to thank Mr. Groenewegen, everybody who

Page 1224

1 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir.

3 Please, could you stand. Please read aloud the affirmation on

4 the card which is shown to you now.

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. And now please be seated.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think Mr. McCloskey has some questions for you.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

13 Q. Can you first tell us your name, please?

14 A. My name is Dusan Janc.

15 Q. And what is your current position?

16 A. I am an investigator with the Office of the Prosecutor.

17 Q. And what team are you assigned to?

18 A. I'm assigned to the Srebrenica investigation team or the Tolimir

19 trial team.

20 Q. And how long have you been an investigator with the Office of the

21 Prosecutor?

22 A. I've been here now for four years, so from 1st of June, 2006.

23 Q. And have you been on that same Srebrenica team from the

24 beginning?

25 A. Yes, indeed.

Page 1225

1 Q. All right. And prior to coming here, what was your position?

2 A. I was the criminal investigator with Slovenian police. I worked

3 there since 1993, when I joined the police after I completed my secondary

4 school, so and then I have a different position within the Slovenian

5 police organisation.

6 Q. All right. So where were you born?

7 A. I was born in Kranj, in Slovenia, in 1975.

8 Q. And when did you first go to the police -- start receiving police

9 education or training?

10 A. I started my secondary school -- police school in 1989, and after

11 four years I completed it. And I joined the police forces in July 1993.

12 Q. And did you ever -- were you ever transferred outside of Slovenia

13 during this period of 1991 through 1996?

14 A. No, I was all the time in Slovenia.

15 Q. Were you ever in the armed forces of any army?

16 A. No, because when you are a police officer in Slovenia, you don't

17 need to go to the armed forces. So if you serve for police, you don't

18 need to join the armed forces.

19 Q. All right. And thank you for being available at short notice to

20 talk about this one exhibit today. And it is Exhibit 06196, and I see

21 that you have it in front of you. You also have a piece of paper that's

22 in front of you. That should be two pages. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, indeed, this is my information report I prepared for this

24 testimony, so it relates to this map book. So -- and it has an

25 ERN 0674882-328824 [sic].

Page 1226

1 Q. And I know it has some detailed information in it. So if you do

2 need to refer to it, I don't think that would be a problem. Just let us

3 know that you are referring to it.

4 Now, really, we have called you just to talk about and lay a

5 foundation for the admission of this map book, and we have hard copies

6 that we've provided the Court Officer.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think, Your Honours, while I'm sure it's on

8 e-court, you may want to just have it. It's meant to be something you

9 have with you on your desk, if you so choose, though it will also come up

10 on e-court.

11 Q. And, first of all, can you tell us who prepared this book?

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you have the hard copy of this

13 book?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I do, I

15 do have a hard copy, and I've examined it thoroughly.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we have provided, where necessary, the B/C/S

17 translations for the book for the general.

18 Q. And just briefly tell us what it is.

19 A. Yes. It's a map book which was prepared for this Tolimir trial

20 by Tolimir trial team, and consisting of investigators and the lawyers,

21 and also mainly by the GIS unit of the OTP. "GIS" means "Geographical

22 Information System Unit," so there is a lady who helped us with the

23 creation of this book.

24 Q. And what's her name from the GIS unit?

25 A. Her name is Alina Stretton.

Page 1227

1 Q. And just briefly, what is this GIS unit? What do they do?

2 A. Actually, they are dealing with the maps. As I explained, "GIS,"

3 it means "Geographical Information System." It is a software where you

4 create maps.

5 Q. All right. And it's my plan just to briefly go through the book

6 and ask you about where each of the maps came from. I don't want at this

7 time to go into any substance of the meaning or why particular things

8 were done at this point. It's just to form a foundation for the

9 introduction into evidence.

10 But, of course, if there are -- Your Honour, if you do have

11 questions about what you see, of course, Mr. Janc is ready to do that.

12 So let's open it up to the first page, which ends in ERN -- it's

13 actually not the first page. It ends in ERN 3272. It's just the table

14 of contents page. And this, I take it, is just the brief description of

15 each item in the book.

16 A. Yes, indeed, this is a brief description of each item, each page

17 in this book.

18 Q. Okay. Let's go to the first map, then, page 1.

19 No, that's not it. It would be ERN 0701-3273. There you go.

20 Now, this map, we obviously can't read much -- or I can't read

21 very well any of the words on it. Just tell us what this map is. Where

22 did we get it?

23 A. This map was obtained from the publicly-available source in 1994,

24 from the times, and it is a map showing the area of the former Yugoslavia

25 with all the republics.

Page 1228

1 Q. All right. And this coloured section in the left corner, is that

2 meant to be any part of this case or information at all?

3 A. No, we are not interested in this part.

4 Q. Okay. Well, we -- in fact, you can't really read it, in any

5 event. All right. So this gives us a basic background of the borders.

6 Let's go to page 2, then.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First a question from the Bench.

8 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.

9 Just for my education, actually --

10 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

11 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes. Just for my education, if you could just

12 read out -- as Mr. McCloskey has said, I can't read all the names of the

13 republics in the former Yugoslavia. Can you just read them out for me,

14 please, pointing from this map? Thank you.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And go back, please, to page 1, to the previous

16 map.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I can.

18 The first one, I will start from the left to the right, is

19 Slovenia, then it's Croatia, then we have Bosnia and Herzegovina, then we

20 have further Republic of Yugoslavia, then we have Montenegro, and bottom

21 right it's Macedonia.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 Q. And can you also just give us the border countries that we see,

24 starting with Austria?

25 A. Yeah, the border countries --

Page 1229

1 Q. Let's start with Italy, I think, left to right.

2 A. Yeah. Indeed, first one would be Italy from the left. Then we

3 go top right corner is Austria, then it's Hungary, then it's Romania.

4 Below Romania is Bulgaria. Then we have Greece and Albania. So these

5 are the surrounding countries.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.

7 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour. Now let's --

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, another intervention? Mr. Tolimir.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Could we please have it explained to us? Here it says that in

12 the left bottom corner, where we see the smaller map with some legends,

13 that that cannot be easily read. However, it is possible to read it, and

14 it contains information about the map which only suits those who wanted

15 to present it in that way, whereas it doesn't say why the national

16 structure or the ethnic structure is presented the way it is. Thank you.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I am not interested -- I can't tell what

19 this map says. I don't even know what it has to do with. But it's not

20 something we're asking the Court to review. The ethnic compounds of the

21 various municipalities and areas in Bosnia may be something very hotly

22 interested by the general. It's not something I'm interested in at this

23 point, nor do these maps -- are they designed to display this in any way.

24 So we can -- I'm not asking the Court to review this. If it's something

25 that the general contests with "The Times of London," I can -- just, I

Page 1230

1 don't know what else to say.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not necessary to deal with that. Just carry

3 on.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

5 Let's go to page 2.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it is being proposed here to

8 tender these maps, and yet the Prosecutor says that it doesn't mean

9 anything to him. Then I would appreciate it if we could remove the

10 smaller map from the bigger map, because on the larger map you can see

11 what is being put here, because I feel it is not necessary to show this

12 smaller -- or to admit this smaller map into evidence because it presents

13 details that are only understandable to us who are from that area. Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There's no decision of the Chamber yet about

16 admission of this map. We can deal with that later. I think in the

17 moment -- you can deal with that in cross-examination, but now please

18 carry on, Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

20 Q. First of all, tell us who created this map.

21 A. This map was created by the Geographical Information System unit

22 of the OTP.

23 Q. And what is it?

24 A. It is a map of Bosnia and Herzegovina with the entities. So this

25 map was created by the OTP, and it was based on the GIS information we

Page 1231

1 received in 2002 from the GIS data company from Zagreb. So the

2 boundaries you can see inside here, I mean the municipality boundaries

3 and the Dayton line boundaries and the country boundaries, were included

4 into their data and then geographically referenced into the map.

5 Then you have another line which you can see it's approximate

6 VRS/HVO/ABiH confrontation line, and this was taken from the other

7 source, which was HQ Brit for current situation map. So these are

8 details which you can see on this map.

9 Q. And is this meant to be absolute, these lines, or is this meant

10 to give us a general indication of these various lines at various times,

11 as indicated?

12 A. No, all these various lines on this map and on following maps

13 would be rough, rough lines, so it's not meant to be in the exact lines.

14 Q. All right. Let's go to the next map, which is on page 3. We can

15 again see Bosnia and Herzegovina, and what are -- where did the

16 information come from that we see on this map?

17 A. Again, for the country boundaries and the municipality

18 boundaries, the information was the same as for the map before. But

19 for -- then we can see the bold black lines. These are the corps

20 boundaries which were taken from Rick Butler's report.

21 Q. The corps of what army?

22 A. Yes, corps of the VRS, VRS Army.

23 Q. All right. And just to remind us, who is Rick Butler?

24 A. Rick Butler is a military analyst who will also testify in this

25 case.

Page 1232

1 Q. Okay. Let's go to page 4. And what is this a blow-up of?

2 A. This is the Drina Corps area of responsibility map, where you can

3 see the brigade boundaries inside the Drina Corps area of responsibility.

4 And this one was taken from the map we have obtained from the Drina Corps

5 collection, so with ERN number 00 -- sorry, 0444, and I will read it from

6 my report, 3019.

7 Q. Now, the Drina Corps collection, can you just -- there will be a

8 witness about that, but can you briefly explain to this Trial Chamber

9 what that means, what the Drina Corps collection is?

10 A. The Drina Corps collection is a huge collection which we

11 received, obtained, I think, in 2004 from Bosnia or Banja Luka, or

12 Serbia. I'm not sure about it. It will be my colleague investigator,

13 Tomasz Blaszczyk, who will testify about it. So we received a huge

14 collection of Drina Corps documents, different documents. Also, maps

15 were included in this collection, and they were stamped here, and this is

16 part of -- this map is part of this collection.

17 Q. Okay. Just very simply, and I know your colleague will talk

18 about this, but this Drina Corps collection, was that thought to be an

19 archives by the investigative team of the Drina Corps material from the

20 war?

21 A. Yeah, indeed, that was an archive of the Drina Corps material,

22 documents, from 2009, up to the end of the war in 2005. Also, we have

23 documents from 2006, and it's in total, I think, 200.000 pages, something

24 like that.

25 Q. Okay. And we can see that these are the various brigades

Page 1233

1 outlined in that original map from the Drina Corps archives?

2 A. Yes, indeed.

3 Q. And just a curious thing. I noticed, right before you were

4 testifying, we see -- can we blow that up a little bit? One more time,

5 please.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which part of the map?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Kladanj. That's perfect, thank you.

8 Q. Now, we can tell, from the legend of the map -- and again I don't

9 want to analyse all this material at this point, but I just -- there's

10 one odd thing I wanted to ask you about. We can tell, from the legend of

11 the map, that this black line that we see between Kladanj and Vlasenica

12 is the approximate confrontation line in April of 1995, and it shows that

13 the yellow part of the Drina Corps would incorporate Kladanj. And I

14 don't think I'm aware of any information where the Drina Corps ever held

15 Kladanj. Do you have any explanation for that?

16 A. No, I do apologise, I don't have any explanation why that Kladanj

17 is on that side. I would rather check the original map again to be clear

18 about it. So I would rather check it again. So I have no explanation.

19 But, you know, according to our military analyst, this is the map which

20 was used for this map.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will endeavour to bring in that map so you can

22 get an idea of what it is he's talking about anyway, so you can see what

23 kind of maps these things are based on.

24 Okay. All right, let's go to the next page, page 5. And if you

25 could blow that up just to -- so we can read some of the cities, probably

Page 1234

1 getting Srebrenica into the mix. That's perfect. Yeah, keep going.

2 Just get Srebrenica. There, that's fine.

3 Q. And what is this map?

4 A. This map is a simplified map of the area of the eastern part of

5 Bosnia, which was created by the Dutch Topographical Institute for our

6 purposes. I think we obtained it in -- by the end of 1999, beginning of

7 2000. And they based their maps on the maps obtained from the

8 United States.

9 Q. And is this map, while it's a simplified map, is it to scale?

10 A. I don't think so it's in -- or it should be -- I can -- I don't

11 know. I didn't check that information.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. So what was with this map was just -- what we received was the

14 empty map, so means that red dots you can see on this map, also on the

15 arrows you can see in this map, and the rectangles you can see in this

16 map, were inserted by us, by the OTP, later on. And the base for these

17 arrows and these dots was the map also obtained from the -- not

18 Drina Corps collection, but from the Zvornik Brigade collection, or it

19 was obtained during the search of the Zvornik Brigade. And the ERN of

20 that map would be 0082-7577. So and these markings were put by military

21 analysts into this map, and these maps were already used in the other

22 Srebrenica-related trials; Krstic trial, Blagojevic trial, and Popovic

23 trial. So and the following two maps are just, you know, blow-ups this

24 same map.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And, Your Honours, we will have copies of

Page 1235

1 those VRS maps in their reproduced normal size if you would like to have

2 them for your review as well. And I will continue.

3 Q. Page 6, you've already referenced that this was just a blow-up of

4 the other map, and all these -- the red lines and the other lines is

5 material that the investigators and the lawyers put on for the case, I

6 take it.

7 A. Yes, indeed. And you see the area of the enclave, Srebrenica

8 enclave here. This was -- this was done by the Dutch Institute. So we

9 haven't inserted this part of it.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One question by Judge Nyambe, please.

12 JUDGE NYAMBE: For the witness, just a clarification.

13 At page 70, lines 17 and 18, you say this map and the rectangles

14 you can see in this map were "inserted by us." Can you indicate the

15 rectangles on your map?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The previous map, please.

18 JUDGE NYAMBE: The map, page 5.

19 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, it will be in the map, the third map;

20 not this one, but the one -- the two after this one, where you will have

21 the rectangles. So on this one, you can see the rectangles -- you can

22 see just the red dots, but the rectangles will be on the third map.

23 JUDGE NYAMBE: Just to help us not get confused, when you say

24 "the next map," or "the previous map," it might be good to say, The map

25 on such and such page. Thank you.

Page 1236

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I do apologise. So it is -- the

2 rectangles will be on the map with ERN 0701-3279.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY:

4 Q. And that is page 7. And we've already talked about 6 briefly, so

5 let's now go to 7.

6 And we see circles, and now we see rectangles, as -- no, that's

7 not the right page. Sorry. Sorry, we need page 7, not map 7. There we

8 go. And if you could just blow that a little more, we'll be able to see

9 the --

10 So when you were talking about rectangles, is this what you

11 meant?

12 A. Yes, indeed, that's what I meant.

13 Q. And just looking at the legend, is that correct, the rectangles

14 are to represent schools and the circles are written in to represent mass

15 executions?

16 A. Yes, indeed.

17 Q. Okay. And is there any particular reason why this map is the

18 only map that has rectangles on it of mass executions, when there was

19 certainly mass executions alleged in the other parts of the map?

20 A. I would not know that. Sorry.

21 Q. Okay. All right, let's go to page 8, e-court page 10.

22 Now, this looks like something new. What is this?

23 A. This is again a simplified map, but this one was created by the

24 OTP GIS unit using the same GIS data from Zagreb. And you can see the

25 area stretching south from Rogatica to the north up to Batkovic, so just

Page 1237

1 to show the general area of this eastern part of Bosnia. And then you

2 can see the enclave boundaries or lines, which were taken from the Drina

3 Corps map with ERN 0438-8412 and geo-referenced into this map.

4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page, e-court 11. Now, if we could

5 blow this up a little bit so we can read the writing in one of those

6 boxes. Actually, let's look at the top box, because that will include

7 Srebrenica.

8 So what we can see here is a Cyrillic map with English in white

9 underneath it. Can you tell us what this is?

10 A. Yes. This is the map which was obtained -- or obtained again

11 from Drina Corps collection, and it has the original ERN 0438-8415. What

12 we have in front of us is already the scanned map of this original map,

13 with the inserted translations. So this one was created for Popovic

14 trial, so it is actually the scan of this same map with inserted

15 translations of the text on the map.

16 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page, then, 12 on e-court.

17 Now, again we see a map. Can you just tell us, first of all, the

18 background map with the basic map detail, without any of the colours,

19 what is that, and what was on it originally when we obtained it?

20 A. Yes. This map we can see in front of us now, we compiled with

21 three different maps, so we have used, as a base, three different maps

22 from Drina Corps collection again. So they are ERN 0438-8412, the second

23 one 0444-2916, and the last one, 0444-3118, because one of such maps did

24 not include the entire area we wanted to include, so from Zepa up to

25 Han Pijesak on the left-hand side, so -- and then we inserted these

Page 1238

1 significant VRS positions and highlighted some roads into that map. So

2 we created this map based on the ones I have just mentioned.

3 Q. Okay. What, if you can tell me, were you referring to just then

4 when you said "we put the information on the map"? Was that the purple

5 circles and the white boxes?

6 A. Yes, indeed. The circles, white boxes, and we highlighted some

7 town names as Rogatica and Han Pijesak, and then you can see in purple

8 some -- in purple you can see roads leading up -- up from Borike up to

9 Han Pijesak, so that's what we have made.

10 Q. What, if you can recall, was on the original VRS map that we

11 obtained from the Drina Corps collection, if anything?

12 A. Yes. We can see, in the middle on the right-hand side, we can

13 see the cross with four Cs, and then around -- and some yellow arrows and

14 red arrows and this what is on the original map.

15 Q. And this cross with the four Cs, are those actually four Cs?

16 A. Yes, indeed. These are Cyrillic four Cs.

17 Q. Are they Cs or some other letter in Cyrillic?

18 A. Oh, sorry, these are S, Ss, four Ss. Sorry.

19 Q. And do you know what that stands for? If you don't, I --

20 A. No, I don't.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay, all right. And again, Your Honours, we do

22 have the original VRS maps for you to see what the original VRS

23 information was and what we've put on it.

24 All right, let's go to the next one, page 13 in e-court.

25 Q. Is this a different map from what we've seen before?

Page 1239

1 A. This is a blow-up of the same map we discussed earlier, the map

2 with translations. So this is a blow-up of the Zepa part of this same

3 map with ERN 0438-8415. And, again, some original markings which were

4 already there. You can see in blue the area of enclave and some red

5 lines, so that was already there. So what we have put are those white

6 boxes and circles around certain places. These are all our markings, and

7 of course the legend on the right-hand side.

8 Q. All right. Let's go to the next map, 14.

9 Okay. There we see two of the Ss in Cyrillic on this map. Is

10 that the same as the Cyrillic Ss that we saw -- the same map, just a

11 different portion of it?

12 A. Yes, indeed. This is again compilation of those three maps I've

13 told you before, so a compilation of the same maps. So it's just a

14 blow-up, I would say, of the same area with some significant points --

15 VRS points at that time.

16 Q. And what is this purple highlighting that we see? Was that added

17 by you or is that part of the original map?

18 A. No, that was added by us. These purple lines are the roads

19 leading up and down or around this area we can see.

20 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 15.

21 What is this?

22 A. This is the satellite image of the same area we have just viewed,

23 so it's the area of Zepa or stretching south from Borike up to

24 Han Pijesak. And this image was obtained from the -- I have to consult

25 my report. It was obtained by the Supreme Headquarters, Allied Powers,

Page 1240

1 Europe, in September of 2006. So when this image was taken, we don't

2 know, but it's the image obtained from that source. So, and again, you

3 can see some markings on this map, and these were inserted by us. So the

4 image -- the original image was without any markings, it was a typical

5 aerial image, and then all the markings you can see on this image were

6 inserted by us.

7 Q. And, again, this purple highlighting, what is that?

8 A. It's the same as the map before. These are roads -- different

9 roads which are leading across the area.

10 Q. And just for basic knowledge, the red that we see on this and the

11 blue, what do those indicate?

12 A. Yeah, the red is the area of the enclave. Now, I'm -- no, sorry,

13 it's -- yeah, it is taken from the map with four Ss, so the same red

14 line. It has the same meaning here. It says, yeah, approximate location

15 of the Serb positions at that time.

16 Q. And the VRS maps that were obtained from the Drina Corps

17 collection or from the Zvornik Brigade, did they traditionally mark the

18 Serb positions in one colour and the Muslim positions in another?

19 A. Yes, indeed. The Serb positions are usually in red, and the

20 Muslim positions are in blue.

21 Q. Okay. All right, let's go to the next page, 16.

22 Now, this looks like a different map. What kind of map is this?

23 A. Yeah, so far we have been reviewing 1:50.000 maps, and this is

24 the map of 1:25.000. So it means you can see more details in this map.

25 And this is the area of the Borike and Boksanica, so it's a blow-up of

Page 1241

1 the map. And the basis for this map was the map we obtained from NATO,

2 NATO C-3 Agency here in The Hague, I would say in September of 2004. So

3 they have provided this 1:25.000 map to us. And, again, these circles

4 and blue texts and texts you can see on the map, we have inserted it.

5 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page, 17.

6 What is this?

7 A. This is the blow-up of the area around Rogatica, showing

8 significant positions around that town, which will be discussed in this

9 case. And this map is based on the VRS and the Drina Corps collection

10 map 0444-3118, so it's 1:50.000 map, this one.

11 Q. Okay. And it's just a blow-up of that, so it makes it look

12 bigger, I take it.

13 A. Yes, indeed, it's a blow-up. And the markings, direct markings

14 you can see on the map, were ours, while the circle around Rogatica with

15 number 62 you can see, you will find it on the original map.

16 Q. Okay. The next one, 18?

17 A. It is again the area of Rogatica, but this is now 1:25.000 map

18 again obtained from the same sources, C-3 NATO Agency, so it's again, you

19 know, significant positions in Rogatica.

20 Q. Okay. And then 19. We can see it says "Approximate driving

21 distance and driving time," and then from various places; Rogatica,

22 Borike. And it gives the kilometres and the average time.

23 Where did this information come from?

24 A. Most of this information came from our missions. We were there

25 on a mission, and we have been measuring these distances and driving

Page 1242

1 times for most of them. For some of them, where we did not measure the

2 actual times and distances, we have obtained these distances from the

3 sources, from the -- yeah, from the sources, and then we have estimated

4 the driving times. So I have participated in some of those missions, but

5 for all of them, it was also my colleague, Erin Gallagher, who was

6 present at most of them.

7 Q. And what year or years was this done, were these roads driven and

8 these miles noted -- kilometres noted?

9 A. Yeah, this was done this year and last year.

10 Q. And so this would not include wartime conditions, roads in the

11 war, or check-points, that sort of thing; this is just meant to be what

12 you found recently?

13 A. Yes, indeed. And I assume the conditions are much different now,

14 because there are asphalt roads now, and you can see there are new roads,

15 and I don't know how it was at that time. Probably, they were not

16 asphalt roads at that time.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.

18 Mr. President, I see we're just beyond our time. I will bring

19 the original maps for the continuing of this, and then it will be over,

20 and over to the general for cross-examination.

21 And, of course, if we could speak to Mr. Janc about other things

22 than this testimony, we would appreciate it for the next week.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Still one question from my colleague,

24 Judge Nyambe.

25 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes, again for the witness.