Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1861

 1                           Monday, 17 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody.

 6             We have, as can you see, we have, again, lost one Judge.

 7     Judge Mindua is in Geneva and due to the closed airport in Schiphol, he

 8     couldn't make it to be here in time.  There are many problems today,

 9     therefore, I think the Chamber has decided to have the hearing today

10     again pursuant to Rule 15 bis.  Our apologies for the late start.  There

11     were many technical problems.  I hope we will be able to -- yes, now it

12     works hopefully.

13             Mr. Tolimir.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, I greet everybody.

15     May God's peace reign in this house.  I didn't have the interpretation,

16     so perhaps we can see what's going on.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could the Court Usher check if it is -- there's

18     translation.

19             The interpretation now valid.  Oh, this is now fixed as well.

20             Finally we got it.

21             Mr. McCloskey, is the next witness available?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honour.  Yes,

23     he is.  And if I could just add a couple of housekeeping matters.  You

24     may recall that with Mr. Janc and Mr. Vanderpuye there were some

25     translations we didn't have or some documents we didn't have translations

Page 1862

 1     for.  We now have P179 and P188 to ICM --

 2             P179 and P180 these were two ICMP reports related to the DNA ID

 3     project.  We now have uploaded the English translation, so I would offer

 4     them into evidence now, pursuant to our practice.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, they will be an exhibit.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And the -- you'd asked last week to get a -- some

 7     statement from the US regarding their rule on the aerial imaginary.  We

 8     do have a letter that they allowed to be admitted in the last trial and

 9     allowed it to be admitted in this trial.  We have uploaded that into

10     e-court and given it a 65 ter number, 6277, and I can offer that into

11     evidence as -- as well.  It's -- it's fairly self-explanatory, as it

12     relates to what is off limits for questioning regarding aerial imaginary

13     and it talks a bit about some facts that were related to the Popovic case

14     which really don't affect us in any significant way, but you'll see from

15     that letter the guts of what is off limits in the US's mind on Rule 70.

16             So I would offer that into evidence as well, but I think we can

17     get it up on the screen so you can take a look at it.

18             Oh, and with me today you'll notice we have a new lawyer,

19     Caitlin Chittenden, who is -- who has been working with us for quite a

20     while now.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First of all, welcome to this trial.  And

22     fruitful co-operation.

23             Does the Defence, Mr. Tolimir, wants to comment on this document.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The Defence would reply

Page 1863

 1     to what Mr. McCloskey has said in writing, if the Trial Chamber permits.

 2     Thank you.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could blow the letter up so we can see

 4     paragraph 3.  Now I think the part that I know is significant to the

 5     United States is the middle half of that paragraph in the middle of the

 6     screen.  It says:

 7             "The Unites States made clear, however, that the OTP was not

 8     authorised to discuss in the courtroom proceedings, any information

 9     relating to the technical or analytical sources, methods or capabilities

10     of the systems, organisations or personnel used to collect analyse or

11     produce these imagery-derived products."

12             That particular paragraph has -- was -- has always come with

13     these products from the inception of our receipt of them.  And that's the

14     guts of it.

15             This letter also points out that the US is open to take requests

16     from the Defence as well, as I've said before.

17             And so I would offer this exhibit into evidence at this time.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is there a B/C/S translation available?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh.  I would offer this as being MFI, because

20     there is not, and we were -- we will be working on that.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document will be marked for identification,

22     and the Defence may comment on that, if that is appreciated.

23             Thank you very much.

24             First the number, yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 6277 will be P214, marked for

Page 1864

 1     identification.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, as you are aware,

 3     Mr. Erdemovic is the next witness.  He is a 92 ter witness with face

 4     distortion.  We do have his Popovic transcript and we do have the revised

 5     transcript for use in this case, and Ms. Stewart continues to work on

 6     finding all the revised transcripts she can for the other witnesses.

 7     There aren't always revised transcripts but she should be able to get to

 8     the bottom of it soon, and we will try to keep up with the witnesses that

 9     are coming.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are talking about face distortion.  Is there

11     no voice distortion?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, there is, you're absolutely correct, and I

13     see the voice distortion microphone so we will be careful.  I will

14     remember to try to turn off the microphone after speaking.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And these protective measures will be in place

16     also at this trial.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And with that, we are -- we're ready to bring in

18     the witness.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If the witness might be brought in.

20             For a short moment, we have to wait so that the witness can be

21     brought in, in a protected way.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Erdemovic.  There are face

24     and voice distortion in place as protective measures for you, as you will

25     be aware.  Would you now please read aloud the affirmation shown on the

Page 1865

 1     card to you now.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  DRAZEN ERDEMOVIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

 7             Mr. McCloskey for the Prosecution has, I believe, some questions

 8     for you.

 9                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

10        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Erdemovic.

11        A.   Good afternoon.

12        Q.   And do you have -- do you recall having testified in the

13     Prosecutor versus Popovic et al on the 4th and 7th of May, 2007?

14        A.   I testified in a lot of cases, so I probably testified in that

15     one as well.

16        Q.   Okay.  And that was the case where I was asking you questions and

17     there were several accused sitting up against the back wall.  Do you

18     remember that one a couple of years ago now?

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please switch off your microphone when the

20     witness answers.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   Okay.  And have you had an opportunity to review the testimony

24     before coming to court today?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1866

 1        Q.   And having reviewed it, does it fairly and accurately reflect

 2     what would you say [sic] today if you were asked the same questions?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   All right.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I would like to offer that

 6     transcript into evidence.  It is 65 ter 6250.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And --

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P215.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, there's a series of exhibits

11     that I would like to enter into evidence with that transcript, that go

12     with it as they were mentioned in it.  And I can go over those now, as

13     you wish.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you going use some of them with this witness

15     during your examination-in-chief?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  I have the list of the ones I was not going

17     to use.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is that the list we received yesterday, or this

19     morning?  I'm not sure.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I believe it is.  Yes.  Though there may be a --

21     one or two on it that I was going refer to, but -- that I would subtract

22     from it, but, otherwise, it is the same list.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should go through the list, and we will

24     receive these documents and we have it then on the transcript.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Understood.  The first is 65 ter 788.  That's an

Page 1867

 1     aerial image of Branjevo State Farm dated 17 July, that the witness spoke

 2     of in his previous testimony.

 3             Should I wait for the number --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- to be assigned?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, I think that is for the sake of the

 7     transcript, for the record, much better.

 8             It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P216, Your Honour.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And the next one is 1350.  That's a photo of the

11     headquarters and barracks of the 1st Zvornik Brigade.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P217.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  1351, another photo of the Zvornik Brigade.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As well.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P218.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  2027 is under seal but I will -- because it

18     always has, but I don't believe there is any reason for it to be under

19     seal and I will look into removing that at this point.

20             And we also found, we do not have a B/C/S translation for that,

21     so this just needs to be MFI'd.  This is the plea agreement agreed do by

22     the Prosecution and Mr. Erdemovic and presented to the trial court under

23     which he plead guilty several years ago.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be marked for identification.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be P219, marked for identification.

Page 1868

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  2028.  These are insignia indicating different

 2     ranks, major, lieutenant, lieutenant-colonel, colonel, that was shown to

 3     the witness during the proofing session.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as well.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P220.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  3385, another photo of the Zvornik Brigade

 7     headquarters that was marked by the witness.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, this one as well.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P221.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  3386.  This is a video still of a man wearing a

11     bandanna on the road there Potocari that the witness had earlier

12     identified as being present at the Branjevo farm.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, this one too.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P222.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  3387.  This is an aerial imagine of the Branjevo

16     farm of 17 July.  This one was marked by the witness.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P223.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  6241 is a video still of the man wearing a

20     bandana but farther on in the video standing in front of refugees that

21     was identified by the witness.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P224.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  6242 is another video still of a man wearing a

25     bandana.

Page 1869

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P225.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  6243 is a video still of 10th Sabotage Detachment

 4     members, Zivanovic, Mladic, Cico and taken from the Srebrenica trial

 5     video.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be received as well.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P226.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Then there's 6244, video stills of 10th soldiers

 9     named Zoran, and I believe nickname Maljic, Franc Kos, and this is

10     also -- this was taken from a video as well.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P227.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  6245, another video still of another

14     10th Sabotage Detachment member, Zoran Stupar, identified by the witness,

15     from the Srebrenica trial video.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Exhibit P228.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  6246, another video still of a person named Cico

19     that the witness identified from the Srebrenica trial video.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P229.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  6247, another still of someone the witness

23     identified as a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, known to him as

24     Buljo.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

Page 1870

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P230.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  6248, another video still of 10th

 3     Sabotage Detachment members, Buljo, Milorad Pelemis identified by the

 4     witness taken from the Srebrenica trial video.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as well.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P231.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Lastly, 6249, another video still, 10th Sabotage

 8     member, Popovic, Sabanovic, and Dragan which was from that same video and

 9     identified by the witness prior.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P232.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now I have a summary of this witness's testimony

13     which I would now read for the record, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Drazen Erdemovic was born in Tuzla in 1971 and is

16     of Bosnian Croat decent.  Did his mandatory compulsory military service

17     with the JNA military police from December 1990 until the end of

18     March 1992.  He then served for a short time in the ABiH, the Muslim

19     army, at Mount Majevica and then went to the military police of the HVO,

20     the Bosnian Croatian army, and served there from October 1992 until

21     November 1993, when he left and went to the Republika Srpska.

22             In April 1994, Mr. Erdemovic joined the VRS and became a member

23     of the newly formed -- of a newly formed special unit which was renamed

24     the 10th Sabotage Detachment in October 1994.  Colonel Petar Salapura of

25     the Main Staff was in charge of the unit, and the unit itself was

Page 1871

 1     commanded by 2nd Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis.  A Major Pecanac also played

 2     a role in the unit, but Mr. Erdemovic was not aware of his position or

 3     exact role.

 4             In July 1995, the unit consisted of two platoons, about 30

 5     members each, one located in Vlasenica, and the other in Bijeljina.

 6     Mr. Erdemovic was a member of the Bijeljina Platoon.

 7             On the afternoon of 10 July, Mr. Erdemovic, together with 30 to

 8     40 other members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, travelled from

 9     Bratunac, towards Srebrenica to take part in the attack on the enclave.

10     They spent the night at an elevation above Srebrenica.  On the morning of

11     11 July, Erdemovic and his unit descended into Srebrenica town.  Their

12     commander, Pelemis, told the members of the unit they would be joined by

13     other units, including the Drina Wolves, and units from Bratunac and

14     Milici.  Pelemis told his unit to expect strong resistance when entering

15     Srebrenica.  Pelemis also told the unit, and I quote from Mr. Erdemovic's

16     previous testimony:

17             "That we were not to shoot at civilians in any case and that we

18     were to direct them in front of us towards the stadium."

19             From the Popovic testimony, 10944, lines 11 and 12.

20             Mr. Erdemovic mentioned some of the members of his units present

21     at Srebrenica on 11 July, including his commander, Milorad Pelemis;

22     Bijeljina platoon commander, Franc Kos; and members Stanko Savanovic and

23     Dragan Koljivrat; and Vlasenica platoon commander, Lule; and members

24     Velimir Popovic and Zoran, nickname Maljic, and others.

25             When Erdemovic and others reached the centre of Srebrenica town

Page 1872

 1     that afternoon near the mosque, an able bodied Muslim man surrendered to

 2     them.  Pelemis ordered Zoran, nicknamed Maljic from the Vlasenica

 3     platoon, to kill this men.  Erdemovic saw Zoran carry out this order by

 4     slitting the man's throat.

 5             Erdemovic and his units stayed in Srebrenica that night.  The

 6     next day, on 12 July, they returned to Vlasenica where they had learned

 7     that Pelemis had overturned an armed personnel carrier near the Vlasenica

 8     base in Dragasevac.  This killing, 10th Sabotage Detachment soldier,

 9     Dragan Koljivrat, from the Bijeljina platoon.

10             On 13 July, Mr. Erdemovic and six to seven other members of the

11     10th Sabotage Detachment travelled across Bosnia to Trebinje, near

12     Dubrovnik, to attend Koljivrat's funeral.  The journey to Trebinje took

13     almost all day on the 13th.  The funeral was held on the 14th and the

14     group travelled back to Vlasenica during the night of the 14 July,

15     arriving in Vlasenica on the morning of 15 July.

16             On the morning of 16 July, Erdemovic and seven other members of

17     the 10th Sabotage Detachment commanded by Brano Gojkovic, departed from

18     their base in Dragasevac for Zvornik.  At the Zvornik brigade barracks, a

19     tall, corpulent lieutenant-colonel with greyish hair in a VRS uniform

20     came out of the barracks accompanied by two members of the Drina Corps

21     military police.  The lieutenant-colonel and the two MPs got into an

22     olive-green-grey Opel Kadett car and led Erdemovic's group to a farm near

23     the town of Pilica.

24             The lieutenant-colonel went in side an office at the farm and

25     then came out and spoke with Brano Gojkovic.  At that time, Gojkovic

Page 1873

 1     announced that buses carrying civilians from Srebrenica would start

 2     arriving in a few minutes and they were to be killed.  Soon thereafter,

 3     the lieutenant-colonel and two military policemen got back into the Opel

 4     Kadett, and as they were about to drive away from the area, the first

 5     busses with Muslim prisoners arrived.

 6             The first group of approximately ten prisoners was taken off a

 7     bus, blindfolded with their hands tied behind their backs.  They were

 8     marched off some 100, 200 metres.  Once the prisoners were in position,

 9     with their backs to their executioners, Brano Gojkovic gave the order to

10     shoot.  Mr. Erdemovic, along with the other seven members of the

11     10th Sabotage Detachment, opened fire on the prisoners with automatic

12     weapons.

13             A second group of prisoners then followed, and Mr. Erdemovic and

14     the other members of his unit executed them as well.  The executions

15     continued in this way from approximately 1000 hours until about 15 or

16     1600 hours with 15 to 20 bus loads of prisoners ultimately being

17     executed.  Mr. Erdemovic estimated that between 1.000 and 1200 people

18     were executed at the farm that day.

19             Early in the afternoon that day, eight to ten soldiers in VRS

20     uniform arrived in a tam truck to the farm.  Mr. Erdemovic believed that

21     these men this come from Bratunac, because among other reasons, two

22     members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment had recognised some of them as

23     such.

24             As the executions progressed, these soldiers kicked, punched, and

25     cursed the prisoners.  They also beat them with riffle butts and metal

Page 1874

 1     bars.

 2             Finally, the lieutenant-colonel came back to the farm as the last

 3     bus load of Muslims were being executed.  The lieutenant-colonel told the

 4     members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment unit that there were some 500

 5     prisoners at the Pilica cultural centre who also needed to be executed.

 6             Mr. Erdemovic, as well as some other members of his squad, his

 7     colleagues, refused this order.  Instead, members of the unit from

 8     Bratunac left the farm with the lieutenant-colonel.  Mr. Erdemovic and

 9     the others were instructed to meet the lieutenant-colonel in a coffee bar

10     in Pilica.

11             When Erdemovic and others arrived at the coffee bar across the

12     road from the Pilica cultural centre, he could see several dead bodies in

13     front of the centre.  Mr. Erdemovic heard gun-fire and explosions coming

14     from the culture centre.  At this time, Mr. Erdemovic saw vehicles

15     passing by normally and people walking about.

16             Mr. Erdemovic sat in the coffee bar with the lieutenant-colonel

17     and two other members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, Brano Gojkovic and

18     Franc Kos.  Later on, one of the soldiers from the unit of men from

19     Bratunac came into the cafe and reported to the lieutenant-colonel that

20     "everything had been finished."

21             On January 14th, 1998, Mr. Erdemovic plead guilty to the charge

22     of a violation of the laws or customs of war for his involvement in the

23     participation in the summary execution of Muslim men from Srebrenica on

24     16 July 1995.  Prior to his plea of guilty, Mr. Erdemovic and the

25     Prosecution had entered into a Plea Agreement, wherein Mr. Erdemovic

Page 1875

 1     agreed to plead guilty to a violation of laws and customs of war and the

 2     Prosecution agreed to move to dismiss the alternative count of a

 3     violation of crimes against humanity.

 4             In the Plea Agreement, Mr. Erdemovic acknowledged the nature of

 5     the offence he was pleading guilty to, as well as the possible punishment

 6     he could face, including life imprisonment.  He also acknowledged that he

 7     understood that the Trial Chamber was not bound by anything in the

 8     agreement between himself and the Prosecution and that sentencing was

 9     within the sole discretion of the Trial Chamber.  Among other items set

10     forth in the Plea Agreement, the Prosecution reported that Mr. Erdemovic

11     had, up until then, provided considerable assistance to the Prosecution

12     within the meaning of Rule 101(B)(ii) and agreed to address the

13     Trial Chamber to a sentencing hearing and recommend seven years as the

14     appropriate sentence.

15             Mr. Erdemovic also agreed to continue to co-operate with the

16     Prosecution and testify truthfully before the Tribunal if so requested by

17     the Office of the Prosecutor.

18             On 5 March 1998, the Trial Chamber sentenced Mr. Erdemovic to

19     five years imprisonment for the violation of the laws or customs of war.

20     You see that in paragraph 23 of the Sentencing Judgement, dated 5

21     March 1998.

22             Mr. Erdemovic has testified in the Rule 61 hearing against

23     Karadzic and Mladic, back in, I believe, 1996, in the case OTP versus

24     General Krstic, OTP versus Slobodan Milosevic, OTP versus Popovic et al,

25     and, most recently, in OTP versus Perisic.  His prior testimony was

Page 1876

 1     accepted in evidence in OTP versus Blagojevic and Jokic, pursuant to

 2     92 bis.

 3        Q.   Now, that's -- that's a lot.  It's in the testimony, so I will

 4     just ask you some questions to clarify a few issues.

 5             Can you very briefly describe how it was, Mr. Erdemovic, that

 6     you -- well, you did your mandatory service in the JNA as described.  We

 7     understand that.  But how is it that you then became a member of, first,

 8     the BiH army, then the HVO, and then finally the VRS, throughout the

 9     wartime period?

10        A.   The -- I joined the BH army in 1992, because the conflict had

11     erupted in Bosnia and all able-bodied men had to join the army.  I did

12     not stay there long.  I was a scout on mortars and a few months later, in

13     Tuzla, the Croatian Defence Council was established, and as I had a

14     friend who was in the military police, I decided to join the military

15     police so that I would avoid going to the front line.

16             While I was with the military police at the HVO, I helped some

17     Serb civilian who had remained in the Tuzla area and wanted to leave and

18     cross over to the side that was under the control of the -- of the

19     Republika Srpska army.  I can't recall exactly what month it was.  I

20     believe in October or a little earlier.  We were captured on

21     Mount Majevica with few Serb civilians, so we were imprisoned and

22     questioned about why we were helping Serb civilians and circumstances

23     thereof.

24             An individual whom I had helped before I was arrested, whom I had

25     helped cross over into Republika Srpska, promised me that he would help

Page 1877

 1     me if I crossed over to the area which was under the control of the

 2     Republika Srpska army and that they would help me move abroad to

 3     Switzerland, namely; and that is why I decided to cross over to the

 4     territory that was under the control of the Republika Srpska army.

 5     However, that person did not keep his promise, so I had to remain in

 6     Republika Srpska and so I decided to join a unit in Bijeljina, which

 7     consisted of Croats, a Muslim, and a Slovene.

 8        Q.   At some point were you living in Serbia and had to leave around

 9     this time?

10        A.   When I crossed over to Republika Srpska in the month of November,

11     there were some individuals who recognised me who were from the Tuzla

12     area, and they threatened me.  So I decided to cross over to the Federal

13     Republic of Yugoslavia, at the time it was still the Federal Republic of

14     Yugoslavia.  But could I not stay there long because there, too, the

15     military police and the civilian police arrested able-bodied individuals

16     and sent them back to joined Republika Srpska army.

17        Q.   And so when did you first become a member of the

18     10th Sabotage Detachment of the VRS?

19        A.   In April 1994.

20        Q.   And you have said in your previous statement that the

21     10th Sabotage was part of the Main Staff and that Colonel Salapura was in

22     charge of it.  Can you just briefly tell us how you knew that

23     Colonel Salapura was in charge of the -- this Main Staff unit that you

24     were part of, the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

25        A.   As I've already said, in the beginning, the unit consisted of

Page 1878

 1     five to six Croat, a Muslim, and a Slovene, and it was a sabotage unit

 2     exclusively.

 3             Prior to an operation that was to be conducted in the Tuzla area,

 4     this person, from whom I later learned that he was Colonel -- this

 5     colonel and that he was Salapura, Petar Salapura.  I learned that later

 6     on from the intelligence staff of the VRS.

 7        Q.   And do you know if he was in that role in 1995?

 8        A.   Yes.  I think that in early 1995, he came to the barracks -- or,

 9     rather, when this unit was in a -- in a small composition, they sent us

10     to join a unit and because -- and as the unit grew, we were in the

11     Bijeljina barracks so that, in 1995, early 1995, I saw this person again,

12     Colonel Petar Salapura.

13        Q.   When you say you saw him, is that it?  You just saw him?  Any

14     idea of who he was, what he was there for, was there anything reliable

15     about him, or did you just see him?

16        A.   No.  I knew that he was in charge of our unit.  I knew this from

17     before, when our unit was still small.  I recall that day, because I was

18     in charge of an operation, a mission in Tuzla.  I was the commanding

19     officer of that group, and I decided not to carry out that mission

20     because I -- I felt, and I thought, that civilians might be endangered.

21     And when we returned, because I was the commanding officer of this group,

22     I was asked to explain why I did not allow this mission to go on and that

23     is when I got to know Colonel Salapura even better and -- because he told

24     me that I was lying, referring to what I had put down in the report.

25        Q.   What was your rank at the time you were in charge of this mission

Page 1879

 1     to Tuzla?

 2        A.   I was a sergeant.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And "vodnik," can that be interpreted as corporal

 4     sometimes, do you know, as you understand English now?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, I know you say this in your testimony, but because you have

 7     brought it up, can you give us a very brief description of what the

 8     sabotage unit's job was.  What kind of work did you do?  I don't need at

 9     this point specific missions, but just the kind of missions you're

10     talking about.

11        A.   The type of missions we had was to try and move behind enemy

12     lines unobserved, to collect data about enemy weapons and anything that

13     related to the military.  Blowing up and setting up explosives to sites

14     where the enemy had their weapons, weapons depots, and so on.

15        Q.   You've also mentioned in your testimony and some of your

16     statements the name Pecanac.  What do you know about him and his

17     connections, if anything, in the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

18        A.   I didn't know much about him.  He came occasionally.  For

19     instance, when we conducted reconnaissance missions in Srebrenica, he

20     made an appearances, and then on our way back from Srebrenica, that -- on

21     that night, on the 12th, when our commander had the accident in his

22     vehicle, and Dragan Koljivrat was killed in the accident, he was there

23     then.  I didn't know much about him.  I knew that he was a major, that he

24     was called Pecanac.  That's how people addressed him.  And nothing else.

25     He just came there from time to time and he did some work for our unit.

Page 1880

 1        Q.   You've mentioned in your testimony, in statements, about a -- an

 2     operation that you went on through a tunnel to Srebrenica.  And can you

 3     just briefly describe when you think that was and what that operation

 4     was?

 5        A.   I cannot remember exactly when this operation was carried out.  I

 6     think it was in earlier 1995 or thereabout.  It has to be in earlier

 7     1995.

 8             We entered through a tunnel, an underground tunnel, that

 9     connected a place near Bratunac and came out at the other end, in

10     Srebrenica.  That mission was supposed to alert the military and the

11     population, the people in Srebrenica, it was a sort of reconnaissance

12     sortee.

13             [In English] Sorry, I can't find the word in my language.

14        Q.   And what did -- what did the unit do once it went through the

15     tunnel?

16        A.   [Interpretation] We came into Srebrenica at midnight.  We fired a

17     few flares or a few missiles, rockets.  We had small-arms, and this

18     lasted all in all about ten minutes, and then we returned via the same

19     way under the -- through the tunnel, to the area which was under the

20     control of VRS.

21        Q.   Did you co-ordinate or connect with any members of the

22     Bratunac Brigade, before, during, or after this mission?

23        A.   I think that there were two men there - I don't know if they were

24     from the Bratunac Brigade, I think so - who knew about the tunnel.  And I

25     think that one of the people who actually led us through the tunnel had

Page 1881

 1     worked at the mine, so he knew exactly which tunnel would come out at the

 2     Srebrenica end.

 3        Q.   You said that rockets were fired.  Can you describe to us what

 4     kind of weapon this was?

 5        A.   These were former JNA Zoljas.

 6             [In English] I'm struggling for words.

 7        Q.   A Zolja, is that, like, what in English we would call

 8     rocket-propelled grenades, a shoulder-fired grenade weapons?

 9        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, these Zoljas were fired from the shoulder.

10        Q.   Now, you've estimated that that day at Branjevo farm the group

11     killed between 1000 and 1200 people.  How did you get that estimate?

12        A.   I arrived at the figure - and I don't know if it is correct - but

13     by counting the buses.  I didn't actually count them, but I assessed it

14     was -- it stayed with me that it could have been about that number.

15        Q.   And going now to Pilica village as you were at this cafe.  Can

16     you describe what if anything was going on in the town while this --

17     while you were across the street from the Pilica cultural centre, both

18     the normal and abnormal.

19        A.   Between the cultural centre and the cafe there was a civilian

20     check-point manned by the civilian police, Republika Srpska civilian

21     police, vehicles drove through normally.  But not far from there, one

22     could hear shots and shells being fired.

23        Q.   And were there any people or vehicles on the street that you

24     remember?

25        A.   Yes.  Civilian vehicles went through those check-points.

Page 1882

 1     Everything seemed normal.

 2        Q.   And what, if anything, did you conclude was going on at the

 3     cultural centre?

 4        A.   Before they left the farm, this colonel came and he said there

 5     were 500 people in the Pilica culture hall and that they should also be

 6     shot, and I and some people from my unit refused that and we stayed

 7     behind.  But the persons who were -- were talking, some people from my

 8     unit, from Bratunac, they already left.  We hadn't even left the farm

 9     when you could hear the shots and the hand-grenades exploding.  We could

10     hear that.  They were coming from the direction of the Pilica Dom.

11        Q.   Do you recall your unit receiving any training in the FRY -- what

12     would have been the FRY prior to July 1995?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you briefly describe, you know, when that was and the kind of

15     training you got.  Very briefly.

16        A.   I think this was in late 1994 or early 1995.  Perhaps it was in

17     December 1994.  I cannot remember.  The training was actually such that

18     they went to the army barracks in Pancevo.  This was the Army of

19     Yugoslavia, and that's where they had the training, to learn how to use

20     different kinds of weapons, to place explosives, and so on.

21        Q.   Did you go do that training in the FRY?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   I'd like to show you a document.  It's number 2074.  This is a

24     document I showed you on Sunday, and both versions should come up.  I

25     hope you can read one of them.  It's a document --

Page 1883

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is now an exhibit, as I suppose, you could

 2     perhaps indicate which P number we have for that.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I -- this is not one of the ones I mentioned to

 4     you because --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Oh, my mistake.  Okay.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could blow up the -- the Serbo-Croatian

 7     one, the one that we see now.  I think for much of our purposes that

 8     language helps.

 9        Q.   We see that this is dated the 10th of July, 1995.  It's from the

10     Command of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.  It's an order that Franc Kos,

11     leader group --  is -- are any of those men familiar, those names that

12     are listed in this order?

13        A.   Yes.  Franc Kos, Marko Boskic, Brano Gojkovic.  My name is there.

14     Dragan Koljivrat, Zoran, Stanko Sovanovic,

15     Stipan, Zoran -- Stupar, Zoran; Lulis [phoen], Goran; Vlastimir Golijan.

16     These are all the people from my unit.

17        Q.   Can we drop down in the English a bit so we can see who signs off

18     in on this.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, it's the next page in English.

20        Q.   And we -- we see that this has been signed by Franc Kos for

21     Milorad Pelemis.

22             Have you ever -- did you see this -- this order back then, in

23     July 1995?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   It doesn't say precisely what you're to do.  But given the date

Page 1884

 1     of this, 10 July, and the route that it takes, does this order have

 2     anything to do with the operation that you were involved in, in

 3     Srebrenica?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And we see that next to your name it says, "Sergeant."

 6             And you have, over the years, and in your statements and

 7     testimonies, talked about your authority.  Were you a sergeant at the

 8     time, as this notes?

 9        A.   No.  At the time, actually, before then, like I said, I already

10     had a conflict with 2nd Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis, and I also had a

11     conflict with Colonel Salapura, because they -- because I didn't want to

12     do what they wanted me to do.

13        Q.   Can you describe that.

14        A.   I already mentioned a few minutes ago that I refused to carry out

15     an order by Salapura, because I was at this location where the assignment

16     was to have been carried out.  And I decided that the civilian population

17     would have been endangered and harmed and that is why, as I said already,

18     wrote a report and they said that these were lies, and so on.

19             Also, at a -- during an action before where I was the commander

20     of that group, I decided to release one person that we had captured at

21     the Majevica mountain.  That person was here to testify about how I had

22     decided to release them, and that is why Pelemis always objected to that.

23     He -- he -- he always held that against me.

24        Q.   Okay.  And you recall we showed you that document yesterday, and

25     Mr. Janc, the investigator whom you met, made a brief note that said

Page 1885

 1     after showing that document to you that:

 2             "Erdemovic confirmed that he was a sergeant at the time of the

 3     group and, at the time, but that -- having a group leader.  But having

 4     had a dispute with Petar Salapura, he was not a leader anymore."

 5             So just to clarify, is -- were you -- is this document correct:

 6     Were you a sergeant at the time like indicates in this proofing note?

 7        A.   No.  Like I already said, at that point in time, I was just a

 8     regular soldier.  Pelemis told me that I was not going to be the group

 9     leader anymore and that I would have a rank no longer.  This was much

10     before the Srebrenica events unfolded.  This was in early 1995.

11             So to my mind, I know that he told me that, and I know that I

12     wasn't a sergeant or a corporal.

13        Q.   All right.  And in the fall of 1995, do you remember that there

14     was some kind of awards ceremony at Dragasevac, the Vlasenica

15     headquarters?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes, in Dragasevac.  That was when -- this was in late

17     1995.  I was, again, given the rank of corporal or Sergeant, and -- I

18     don't know how to explain this.

19             I was like a first class sabotage officer, seconds class sabotage

20     officer, depending on how many actions you had taken part in, and then

21     would you given this kind of title, sabotage officer, first class

22     sabotage officer, second class; I can't really remember.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I would like to offer 2074

24     into evidence.  I had forgotten to do that.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

Page 1886

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P233, Your Honours.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   And Mr. Erdemovic, have you seen over the years, and actually

 4     yesterday as well in my office, a portions of a video of that ceremony?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And can you be seen, yourself, at some point in the -- during the

 7     festivities?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is a short and edited clip of -- of the

11     video that we have of a more complete version, but we have a short clip

12     I'd like to show the witness and just ask him to identify himself and

13     perhaps another person or two.

14             And it's 1378.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   Can you read the Cyrillic date on that?  I don't know how well

18     you are with Cyrillic, but ...

19             I don't think we have to worry about the date.  I see it now, so

20     don't worry about it.  Let's just continue to play it.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, it will be not be broadcast out of

22     this courtroom, because if the -- the witness is shown on this video.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  The first parts of it are

24     fine, and Ms. Stewart will tell me, and I think -- I hope that way will

25     work.  There is this last segment that we can keep from the public.  But

Page 1887

 1     I think we can catch it.

 2             So the first part is fine publicly, if that's okay.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person in the middle is

 6     General Krstic.  To his right is commander of our unit, the

 7     10th Sabotage Detachment, Mr. Pelemis.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   And who's the person with the moustache that is reading

10     something?

11        A.   That was in our -- that person was in our unit.  He was in charge

12     of paperwork and reading out orders.  His name is Savo.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And this still can be seen at 20.3 on the

14     counter, for the record.

15             If we can continue to play, and I'll stop it if I need to ask

16     you.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   So is that you that they referred to getting some kind of a

20     promotion?

21        A.   Yes, yes.  This was in late 1995.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment.  We saw -- yeah, in a kind of

24     subtitle, this is, I think, a translation of what is said, or is it not?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, it is, Mr. President.  This is the -- it's

Page 1888

 1     being played in a software called Sanction, and it's a particular kind of

 2     subtitling of the transcript that will go in with the video as part of

 3     the record.  And I should note that the reference that he just made about

 4     his name and sergeant was at 57.2 in that -- on that video.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this part should not be broadcast, I suppose.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We're not quite there yet.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We heard the name of this witness already.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  His name is fine, Mr. President, being public.

 9     It's -- it is kinds of a strange situation, a unique situation, I should

10     say.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, we can continue to play it.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is General Krstic.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that is at 1.12.7 on the counter.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, General Krstic.

18             The person in the middle is Milorad Pelemis.  He is pointing to

19     the ...

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   Okay.  We're at 2.13.4, and right before that we saw

22     General Krstic.  And now this person in the middle is Pelemis, is that

23     right, that's pointing down on the table?

24        A.   Yes.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 1889

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the commander of our unit,

 2     Milorad Pelemis.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   And that's 2.22.9.

 5             And up until now, have you recognised anybody else besides the

 6     people that you have pointed out as you've watched it?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's continue.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is a different scene of -- of --

14        Q.   And who are these guys and what is this?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And this is what can't be broadcast.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am there on this image.  I'm the

17     third person from the left.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   Okay.  I'm sorry, I probably confused the issue.

20             Can you tell us what this is, this -- with everybody sitting at

21     the table.  Who are these people, and does it have anything to do with

22     the formal ceremony we just saw?

23        A.   Yes.  This happened afterwards, in the Vlasenica cultural hall,

24     after this ceremony.

25        Q.   And who are the people around you?  I don't need names.  Just

Page 1890

 1     generally who are all these people?

 2        A.   These are people from my unit.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's just play it out.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

 8        Q.   As I read in the summary, you have told -- always reported that

 9     upon entering the centre of Srebrenica near a mosque, Pelemis ordered the

10     murder of a Muslim, a military-aged man, that came up to your group.  And

11     I showed you some video yesterday.

12             I want to show you -- for the first time, I want to show you some

13     video now and ask you about it.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And this can be broadcast, and it's 5497.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this is the person

18     that Pelemis ordered, Zoran Maljic, to kill, this is somebody living in

19     Srebrenica.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's continue to play the video and see if

21     there's anything that you may recognise in it.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I can conclude, this is

24     the centre of Srebrenica town.  I'd never been to Srebrenica before then.

25     So this is the mosque, and that would be the person there.

Page 1891

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's just finish up this segment.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I would like to offer the

 4     exhibit of the ceremony, which is 1378, into evidence, and that one

 5     segment where he identified himself should be under seal.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering them as separate exhibits?  One

 7     public, one under seal?

 8                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it would be best if we could get two

10     clips, the public and the private, and that way we stay more private.

11     And Ms. Stewart will help us so we can get it right.

12             And the --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Both portions of this video will be received as

17     separate exhibits.  The second one, under seal.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  The public version of 65 ter 1378 will be

19     Exhibit P234.  The -- the second version of 1378 will be Exhibit P235,

20     under seal.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I would offer this short clip

22     of the centre of town as 5497 into evidence, and I'll -- there is more

23     video related to that that will come in later.  But I think since he has

24     spoke of this section, we should get this section in now.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is appreciated to identify correctly which

Page 1892

 1     portion we have seen.

 2             This will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P236.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I have no further questions.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 6             I think this is a convenient time for a break.  And after the

 7     break, you may cross-examine the witness, Mr. Tolimir.

 8             We must have our first break now on technical reasons, and the

 9     Court Officer will assist you during the break.

10             We will resume quarter past 4.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We had left that we have a full Bench now this

14     afternoon.  Now we will continue the hearing with the cross-examination

15     by Mr. Tolimir.

16             Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  And

18     again I would wish a good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom, and may

19     God's peace reign in this house, and I wish that this trial proceedings

20     end with God's help and not according to my wishes.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] I would like to address the witness now and

23     please have understanding from my asking questions to you that may

24     sometimes related to issues that have you already testified about in

25     other cases, and I hope it won't be too difficult to answer those

Page 1893

 1     questions for the transcript of these proceedings.  Thank you.

 2             And also would you please make a pause and answer my question

 3     only after I say "thank you" at the end of my question to enable the

 4     interpreters to do their jobs.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would like to remind you that

 7     during the answer of the witness, you should switch off your microphone.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps you can use the other microphone.

10     Otherwise, we will have this, yeah, disturbance.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  I will switch on the

12     other microphone.  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   On page 10928, lines 20 through 24, you confirmed, that on the

15     5th of March of 1988 [as interpreted] you were sentenced to five years

16     imprisonment and that you have served your sentence.

17             Could you now please tell us for the transcript how many years

18     you were -- how many years you served in prison, including the years when

19     you were in remand at the Tribunal's detention unit.  Thank you.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1998 you were

21     sentenced to five years imprisonment.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Erdemovic.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please answer the question.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recall exactly how many

25     years I was imprisoned.  I think over three years.  I was sentenced to

Page 1894

 1     five years, but because I served my prison term in Norway, under the

 2     Norwegian laws, I was released after a certain period elapsed.  I can't

 3     recall exactly how much sooner that was.  But I think that I served some

 4     three-plus years.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You said here that you were a member of the JNA, and

 7     then a member of the BH army, and then in the HVO, and then, finally, in

 8     the VRS.

 9             Could you please tell us for the transcript whether all of this

10     happened between 1991 and 1995 and if you can, please tell us what army

11     you served in what periods.  Thank you.

12        A.   Well, as you said, in 1991, I was in the regular JNA army and my

13     service there ended, if I remember correctly, in March 1992.

14             I don't know exactly when I joined the BH army, but I didn't stay

15     there long.  This was in the course of 1992, in any case.  And three

16     months later because I think I was in the BH army for three months, three

17     months later, I joined the military police of the Croatian defence

18     council was established in Tuzla.  In 1993, I crossed over to the

19     territory under the control of the VRS but I did not join the VRS

20     immediately, it only happens some five months later or so, sometime in

21     April 1994.  So I joined the VRS in April 1994.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us what units you serve in the

23     JNA and where were you deployed.  We need this in order to understand why

24     you were assigned to a Sabotage Unit.

25        A.   In the JNA, I served in Slavonia.  I was deployed in Slavonia.

Page 1895

 1     First I was in Belgrade with the military police, and then I was

 2     transferred to the Slavonia, to the Vukovar area.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us for the transcript, please, how long

 4     you served in the military police and also how long you served in the

 5     units that saw some fighting in Vukovar?

 6        A.   In 1991 through 1992, March.  I believe March 1992.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, please, were you assigned to these police

 8     units where you served in the BH army and the HVO because you had some

 9     experience in police units, and you had undergone military training and

10     you also had some combat experience notice war itself.  Thank you.

11        A.   As I've already said, in the BH army, I was a scout, a mortar

12     unit scout, and I decided to joined military police, the HVO military

13     police, because the duties of the military police, within the HVO,

14     included providing security for the command, the garrison, and I did not

15     have to be assigned to the front line as other soldiers did.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In Vukovar, were you in infantry or guards units or

17     military police units?  And were you assigned to military police jobs and

18     assignments or combat.

19        A.   Well, for a while, we provided security or guards duty for the

20     command, and after that, we were assigned to the front line as soldiers

21     on the front line.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you complete your military service before or

23     after the Vukovar fighting?  Thank you.

24        A.   What do you mean "as a soldier"?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 1896

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I was told that it is better that

 3     you have the microphone directly to your head and not to the side.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise for wasting

 6     the Court's time and having to repeat this question.

 7        Q.   But please just tell us briefly, did you complete your military

 8     service in Vukovar and did this happen after the operations in Slavonia

 9     ended?  Thank you?

10        A.   Yes.  I completed my full year of service, which was the regular

11     term, and then because the state of war was declared, we were extended by

12     three months.  Each of us had to stay for three extra months.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You've said already that you reported when received

14     call-up papers from the BH army that you went to the Territorial Defence

15     and that you joined the army then.  Can you just confirm this?  Is that

16     what you did?  Thank you.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On page 1029, pages 20 through 24 in the Popovic

19     transcript, you confirmed that on the 5th of March, 1998, you were

20     sentenced to five years in prison and that you served your prison

21     sentence.

22             Could you tell us, for the transcript, please, whether your

23     Plea Agreement had any impact on the length of your service and on the

24     terms that you served, and did you serve the full term?  And could you

25     tell us how all of that happened?  Thank you.

Page 1897

 1        A.   I don't know exactly how to answer your question, but I will do

 2     my best.

 3             The Plea Agreement meant the following:  The Prosecution proposed

 4     a seven-year sentence, but it was also -- the possibility was also open

 5     that I would be sentenced to a life sentence, and it was really up to the

 6     Trial Chamber to make that decision as to what my prison term would be.

 7     At least that was what I was explained and what was told to me by my

 8     Defence counsel, Mr. Jovan Babic.  That's what I can remember.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  We understood.  The Defence council had a role to

10     play there, that is undisputed.

11             Now tell us, please, said that you were taken prisoner while you

12     were in the HVO.  You didn't tell us who you were taken prisoner by.  The

13     BH army or the VRS.  Thank you.

14        A.   Yes.  I was taken prisoner by the HVO because I helped Serb

15     population move from the area of Tuzla to Bijeljina.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please just tell us why the Serb population

17     was leaving Tuzla for Bijeljina, which was in Republika Srpska.  Thank

18     you.

19        A.   Well, how can I explain this to you?

20             I think that they wanted to cross over to the area that was in

21     Republika Srpska because they were people of Serb ethnicity and perhaps

22     they felt safer there.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know of any instances where these people felt

24     unsafe or whether they were harassed or in some other way mistreated, why

25     they would want to leave there and leave everything behind for a place

Page 1898

 1     where they had nothing?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Well, I can say that some people were arrested in Tuzla because

 3     they were of Serb ethnicity.  I didn't really know why people were being

 4     arrested or not.  I wasn't privy to that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Perhaps the Trial Chamber and I will have a better

 6     understanding of what you are telling us if you tell us how it was that

 7     you organised this transfer of the population from the BH army to the

 8     territory which was under the control of the VRS.  Thank you.

 9        A.   The area of responsibility -- the HVO area of responsibility,

10     which was on Mount Majevica, was an area which I was very well familiar

11     with.  I knew where the trenches were and everything else.

12             And as for the Serb population that I helped move over to

13     Bijeljina, most ever these people were people whom I knew who were from

14     my circles.  They were my neighbours from the Donje Travinje [phoen], and

15     I didn't really know people who were from other areas in Tuzla.  I helped

16     those people who were my neighbours, as it were, whom I knew.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Will I correct in saying that, in fact, the HVO unit

18     was actually a buffer zone between the BH army territory and the VRS

19     territory and that you actually transferred and helped people cross over

20     from one area to the other through their territory?  Thank you.

21        A.   Well, how can I put this?  The unit, or the area that was under

22     the Croatian Defence Council was actually a unit from the BH army on

23     Mount Majevica, but they were under the control of the Croatian Defence

24     Council, I think because most of the villages in that area were Croatian

25     villages.

Page 1899

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Just tell us this:  Did this unit of yours, the HVO

 2     unit, was it on the border-line with -- did it have a direct border with

 3     the -- with the Republika Srpska and was the line -- the demarkation

 4     line, as it were, there?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  That is clear.

 7             Now, could you tell us, please, whether you were in any way

 8     rewarded for transferring these people from one territory to the other,

 9     did you get any kind of remuneration?

10        A.   Well the reward that I got, and we're talking about 20 to 30

11     people, the -- in order to get to the area, we had to go through several

12     check-points, and there was a shortage of fuel in Tuzla at the time, so I

13     got the fuel from them.  That was the only reward that I got.

14        Q.   Thank you.  So there was no reward, no remuneration, no profits,

15     just the cost of the fuel; am I correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you tell us, please - I will now move onto another area -

18     when you left for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and you said in the

19     Popovic transcript that, in 1994, on page 10933, lines --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the line numbers.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   You say the following and yet there, in early 1990 --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the year.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   "... they began mobilisation, so that I was unable to return to

Page 1900

 1     Republika Srpska."

 2             Is this what you said and have I quoted your words correctly?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Could you please clarify something here, both for me and for the

 5     Trial Chamber and perhaps for your own sake, why would you, as a Croat,

 6     be mobilised in Belgrade, and then deployed in Bosnia and Herzegovina

 7     where would you fight for the Serbian army?  Did you have some other

 8     documents or -- with you or -- could you clarify that, please.

 9        A.   Well, I was not in Belgrade.  I was in Titov Vrbas staying with a

10     friend, and the only documents that I had on me was my old ID, the IDs

11     that we all had while Yugoslavia was still one country.  There was, on

12     the ID, the name of my father and the place and date of my birth.  There

13     was nothing else on that ID.  There was no indication as to my ethnicity,

14     whether I was Croatian or Serbian.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You've made that clear.  So, in other words, you were

16     sent based on your ID and then when you realised that would you have to

17     join the fighting, you decided to return to the unit where you were

18     before; correct?  Thank you.

19        A.   I did not understand this question about the unit.

20        Q.   Were you a member of some unit of the Army of Republika Srpska

21     before 1994?  Thank you.

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Have you been in Serbia before that, and then, when under threat

24     that you would be mobilised, did you go then back to Republika Srpska?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1901

 1        Q.   As for the Sabotage Detachment, did you report into it because it

 2     was of mixed composition, it had several Croats and Muslims; or were you

 3     assigned to go to that because that was the place you would be assigned

 4     on the basis of military archives or your military speciality?  Thank

 5     you.

 6        A.   I returned to Republika Srpska and I went, once again, to my

 7     wife, who was Serbian.  She had some relatives there in Bijeljina, so we

 8     went to the military department in Bijeljina, and that was when I learned

 9     that it would be the best for me to join that unit.  And that was what I

10     did.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So you went to the unit voluntarily.  You were not

12     forced to join it nor were you assigned to it because of your earlier

13     deserts [as interpreted]?

14        A.   Yes, I joined it of my own free will.

15        Q.   Thank you.  The Prosecutor mentioned here, and so did you, that

16     an agreement was signed between you and the Prosecution.

17             My question is whether you were promised anything on that

18     occasion in terms of the change of your place of residence, the length of

19     your sentence, the change of your identity, and so on?  Thank you.

20        A.   As I already said, the OTP proposed a length of sentence of seven

21     years.  However, the length of sentence did not depend on me or on the

22     Prosecutor.  The Court was to decide how many years I would be sentenced

23     to.

24             As for the next question, that is to say, my transfer to another

25     country, the Prosecutor never discussed that with me.  It was afterwards

Page 1902

 1     when I had already been sentenced and when I was in Norway, it was

 2     decided that, because of my name and because of everything that happened,

 3     it would be good if I changed that, and if the country in which I would

 4     spend my later life would not be public [as interpreted].  As far as I

 5     remember, I never discussed that with the Prosecution.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So the length of sentence was determined by the Trial

 7     Chamber rather than by the OTP.  Did I understand that properly or not?

 8     Thank you.

 9        A.   Yes.  I know that the OTP proposed seven years whereas I was

10     sentenced to five years.  It means to me that the Judges were the ones

11     who decided about the length of sentence.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us now why did you sign an

13     agreement saying that you would confess your guilt and you agreed to

14     testify in all cases to which the OTP invited you to testify, and you

15     testified in almost all the cases.  Did that affected the length of

16     sentence in any way or not?  Thank you.

17        A.   Even before this agreement, I stated when I testified in my own

18     case, and when I was to declare whether I was guilty or not, I agreed to

19     testify in other cases.  In these cases, your name and names of others

20     were not mentioned.  Only the names of Karadzic and Mladic were

21     mentioned.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you for the explanation.

23             So it was not a part of the obligation when you reached an

24     agreement with the OTP that you should testify in -- in other cases, in

25     my case now, or in the Karadzic case or eventually possibly in the Mladic

Page 1903

 1     case or whoever would appear before this Court.

 2             Is that so or not?  Thank you.

 3        A.   As I said before, I said even before we reached an agreement that

 4     I would testify in other cases.  Your name, of course, was not mentioned,

 5     and many names of persons in whose cases I testified were not mentioned.

 6     But in this agreement, I obliged myself to testify in all cases in which

 7     I was invited to testify.

 8        Q.   I think I have understood you.

 9             Did you have any personal problems or personal motives in

10     connection any other people?  Because you said here that you were in a

11     conflict with some of your superiors.  Or was it only in -- because the

12     Prosecution asked you about some specific persons?  Thank you.

13        A.   To be frank, in case of Milorad Pelemis, I said immediately that

14     I wished to testify against him and also Salapura.

15             As for you and some other persons against whom I did testify, I

16     have no reasons whatsoever.  Let me explain.  First of all, I have never

17     seen you before.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I have understood what you said.

19             We have heard that did you have certain problems with Pelemis and

20     Gojkovic and there were even problems when you had to carry out the

21     orders, that was why you were replaced or stripped of your rank, as you

22     said here.

23             Did I quote that correctly from the previous transcripts, or

24     should I refer to the transcripts?  You even said that in the statements

25     which you gave in Yugoslavia; for example, in Novi Sad and whatever.  I

Page 1904

 1     would not like to waste time and pull up these statements.  But did I

 2     quote your words correctly or not?  Thank you?

 3        A.   Yes.  Let me just explain.

 4             I know for certain that Pelemis sent me to that farm on that

 5     particular day.  Therefore, I still feel within me, this, I don't like

 6     this person.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I have understood.  You had personal problems and

 8     personal conflicts.

 9             Was it also based on the material conditions of your life in

10     Bijeljina or not?  Thank you.

11        A.   I did not understand the last question.  You have asked me

12     several questions.

13        Q.   Thank you, I'm sorry.  As soon as the interpreters interpret

14     this, I will ask you a clear question.

15             Did your conflict with your superior result from a personal

16     conflict with them; or was it also caused by your material situation in

17     which you were living in Bijeljina?  Thank you.

18        A.   My disagreements with Pelemis, as far as I could see this person,

19     he was not interested in anyone.  He didn't care for anyone, he didn't

20     favour anyone.  I think that he just wanted to achieve what he wished.

21        Q.   Thank you.  For example, in Novi Sad, you told the district court

22     in Novi Sad the following.  I can refer to the document.  It's 1D133.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could show it on the

24     screen but there is nothing contentious about the contents.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 1905

 1        Q.   I will read it to you:

 2             "In early February, 1995, I signed agreement as a professional

 3     soldier and I started to undergo training.  And I was assigned commander

 4     of the 1st Sabotage Detachment."

 5             My question is:  When you were assigned and given a rank, and you

 6     became the commander of Sabotage Detachment in February 1995, did you get

 7     more points for your salary.  So was that one of the reasons why you were

 8     not properly treated by others or not?

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10        Q.   Let me repeat the question so that it would be clearer.

11             In the second part you say that they stripped you of your rank.

12     Now the question is:  Were they allowed to strip you of your rank?  Only

13     the person who awarded you the rank could strip you of the rank.  They

14     probably didn't award you the rank.  So when they stripped you of your

15     rank, did they also take away the income which you earned in the army and

16     which helped you to sustain yourself and your family?  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He is basing his question on a quote from a

19     document, I think -- if we could allow the witness, especially because it

20     is on the screen, it is probably on the witness's screen, could he see

21     the section that he's talking about.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you give, perhaps, a clearer reference,

23     Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It is 1D133.  I made

25     the reference, but I said that I could just quote this to the witness so

Page 1906

 1     that he could read it too.  And as for the stripping him of his rank, it

 2     is the transcript from the Popovic case, page 10963.

 3             So if the witness has a need to read it, or the Trial Chamber,

 4     then you might read both documents.  For the sake of being economical and

 5     saving time, I wanted just to read it out to the witness because this

 6     question was not so important.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is an important statement.  All questions

 9     are important.  This is not on the accused's list of exhibits, yet it's

10     the first thing he brings up.  I would appreciate a complete list.  If I

11     don't have it, I would like us to get one, please.  But, again, if he is

12     quoting the -- the -- a portion of this, I think I would request the

13     Court that the witness be allowed to see it.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber would appreciate that as well.

15             Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17             As far as I know, the list has been submitted to the Registry and

18     to the Trial Chamber and to the OTP.  We submitted the first list several

19     days ago.  And this morning, we just added two or three documents, two of

20     which are already in e-court as these are Prosecution documents.  But we

21     just pulled out several pages.  This is why we did today.  Otherwise

22     everything has been submitted, and everything functions perfectly on our

23     computers.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, indeed, Mr. Gajic.  We have received

25     the Defence list of potential exhibits for this witness, and there is

Page 1907

 1     mentioning of 1D133.  And if I'm not mistaken, we have that on the screen

 2     before us.

 3             But perhaps you need another page of this document.  And if

 4     there's an English translation, we would appreciate to see that.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told there was no English translation.  Are

 7     you referring to the first page of this document, Mr. Tolimir, or another

 8     page?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I meant to

10     refer to page 4 in B/C/S, but it is not so important because the witness

11     and I have understood each other.  But for your reference, it's page 4 in

12     B/C/S, just so you can see that I quoted correctly from the document, and

13     as the Prosecutor said it was important for him.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's a long text on page 4.  Which part are you

15     referring to?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please have a look at the line

17     which begins with numbers 60 to 70 in B/C/S.  First it says:

18             "60 to 70 men and then the 1st of February, 1995, I signed a

19     professional military agreement."

20             And then:  "We began our training but I got the rank of sergeant

21     and I was assigned commander of the 1st Sabotage Group.  I signed this

22     agreement with the Serbian army."

23             I have quoted this and the witness has understood what I said.

24     It is page 4, 23rd -- line 23, from the top of the page in B/C/S.  Thank

25     you.

Page 1908

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you -- you saw it.

 2             Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  This is the reason why I wanted him to see

 4     it.  The question sounded like he was the commander of the entire

 5     Sabotage Unit, and now it is clear that he was in command of a small

 6     group.

 7             And if I could ask when these statements are given if they could

 8     send it to our Case Manager.  I don't always see every e-mail an hour or

 9     two before I come to court, which apparently I was on the list, but

10     Ms. Stewart wasn't and that would be helpful.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that.

12             Mr. Erdemovic, do you want to comment on this?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did sign a contract with the

14     Army of Republika Srpska.  I was a sergeant.  I was awarded the rank of

15     Sergeant.  At the time I was the commander of one group in the

16     Bijeljina Platoon, but after that, I also said in the same text that

17     conflicts arose between Pelemis and myself.  I said that earlier when I

18     was questioned by the Prosecution that conflicts arose because they told

19     me that I was lying to them when I said that certain actions could not be

20     carried out, and so on and so forth.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Erdemovic.  You have seen that I quoted your words

23     literally.  Now I will quote what you said in further text.  It's on page

24     10933 from the Popovic case.  You said in lines 8 to 12.

25             In answer to the Prosecutor's question you say, when he asked

Page 1909

 1     you:

 2             "What was your rank and position at the time in the unit?"

 3             And you say, on lines 8 through 12:

 4             "Before that, I was a lance corporal in the VRS army in the

 5     10th Sabotage Unit, but because I had a clash with Pelemis who was the

 6     unit commander, he stripped me of my rank and I was, in fact, a commander

 7     of a group in the Bijeljina Platoon but I was a mere private."

 8             Have I quoted your words correctly and is this what you stated in

 9     the Popovic case, in answer to the Prosecutor's question?  Thank you.

10        A.   If I said that, that I was a lance corporal, that's an error, and

11     I apologise.  I was a sergeant, and the contract between me and the VRS

12     was shown here in The Hague, and everything is stated clearly there, when

13     it was that I became a sergeant, and all the other details.  I don't know

14     where that contract is, but I had occasion to see it here before.

15        Q.   Thank you.  That's exactly as you said.  That's in Prosecutor

16     65 ter 01378.  And it states there that you were a reserve infantry

17     sergeant and not a mere private; is that correct?

18        A.   Where is it stated?  Can you please clarify what document you're

19     referring to?  I don't have it before me.

20        Q.   That's the Prosecution document, 65 ter number 03 -- 01378.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it please be shown to the

22     witness.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   This document was shown, actually, it's a video-clip - we've seen

25     it today - on the occasion of the celebration of the 10th Sabotage Unit.

Page 1910

 1     This is shown on minutes 4.38 through 4.48 of that video-clip.  Thank

 2     you.

 3        A.   Yes.  We could see that on the video-clip.  That was toward the

 4     end of 1995, but I can't recall exactly what month.

 5        Q.   So am I right in saying that you could not be stripped of the

 6     rank of sergeant because here it says that you were a sergeant.  Am I

 7     correct or not?  Thank you.

 8        A.   As I've explained before, I know that I did sign the contract

 9     which states that I am a sergeant.  I believe this was in February; I'm

10     not sure of the exact date.  But if you say so, that's probably correct.

11             But because of the conflict that I had with Pelemis, and anyone

12     can confirm this, any member of my unit, Pelemis said to me that I was no

13     longer a group commander, that from then onwards, I was to be a mere

14     private, and I believe this was in April 1995, which is when I was

15     stripped of the rank and demoted and became a private, and I did not

16     command any other unit.

17             The ceremony, the celebration that we saw at the end of 1995, at

18     this ceremony it was decided again that I was reinstated as a sergeant.

19     Why?  I really can't explain.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please just answer this:  Did you stop

21     receiving a salary, according to the contract where you were appointed as

22     a sergeant.  Can you just tell us that?  Did you stop receiving that

23     salary.  That's all I want to know.  Thank you.

24        A.   If I can remember this correctly, but this was 15 or 16 years

25     ago, but as far as I can recall, all privates and I, as a sergeant, we

Page 1911

 1     all had the same pay.  I believe that the platoon -- from the platoon

 2     commander and higher, the pay was somewhat higher.  But I can't really

 3     say with certainty.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now tell me this:  When it was proclaimed again that

 5     you were -- when you were reinstated as a sergeant, did you accept that

 6     or did Pelemis strip you of that rank again?  Thank you.

 7        A.   At this time I had just returned from Belgrade after surgery,

 8     after I was wounded.  I think this was in October, sometime in October.

 9     I was told that I had to go to Vlasenica for the units celebration, and I

10     had no idea that this was going to be read out about me.  I knew that if

11     you spent a certain time in a certain unit, depending on how many

12     missions you participated in, you would be assigned a class.  So I was

13     then -- I was then said -- I was then promoted to sabotage officer, first

14     class or second class.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us who was it who could propose

16     you for promotion or for a rank?  Would that have to be someone from your

17     unit or someone from a superior units to yours?  Thank you.

18        A.   I can't really answer that question.  I don't know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  As a squad leader within that platoon, did you

20     propose anyone for promotion, or did your sergeant propose people for

21     propose?  Do you recall?  Who would it be who would actually propose

22     someone for promotion, if you can recall?  Thank you.

23        A.   Well, as far as I knew it would all depend on how a mission was

24     accomplished, and also on the number of missions you participated in,

25     whether they were successful and what your conduct was in the mission,

Page 1912

 1     whether you had accomplished it or not and stuff like that.  How would

 2     I -- how would I know?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, Mr. Tolimir, I had to stop your next

 4     question because the translation was not finished yet.

 5             Now proceed, please, and pause between -- after the answer of the

 6     witness.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, in order to complete this picture relating to

10     ranks and so on, could you please tell us, were you a private or not, or,

11     rather, were you a sergeant or not, as we could see in that video-clip or

12     not, although it is not really relevant?

13        A.   Well, you're absolutely right.  It was really of no relevance to

14     me whether I was a sergeant or not.  But if that's what it said there in

15     the video-clip, then I was a sergeant.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Erdemovic.  We will now move on to another group

17     of issues.  And again this has to do with your relationship with certain

18     individuals.

19             Now I would like do talk about Brano Gojkovic.  You mentioned

20     that person in your statement and also during your evidence in the

21     Popovic case where you said that you were not on good terms with him.  Am

22     I correct or not in saying that?

23        A.   Well, I wasn't on good terms but I wasn't -- I didn't have a bad

24     relationship with Brano Gojkovic either.  I did not -- I was not in the

25     same platoon.  I was in Vlasenica, he was in Bijeljina.

Page 1913

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  I was in Bijeljina,

 2     he was in Vlasenica.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And we didn't really see each other

 4     very often.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Was he of a higher rank than you were or not?  Could

 7     you please tell me?

 8        A.   I don't know exactly.  But I think he was a private.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So in the military chain of command he was mere

10     private, whereas you were a non-commissioned officer.  Thank you.

11             Could you now just tell us one more thing:  Who was

12     Mr. Kremenovic, and what can you tell us about this person, Kremenovic,

13     and what his role was in your unit?  Thank you.

14        A.   Radoslav Kremenovic was a lieutenant.  He was deputy commander of

15     our unit, and as you could see there, Lieutenant-Colonel [as interpreted]

16     Milorad Pelemis was the commander and the lieutenant was his deputy.  So

17     these individuals who had ranks in our unit, they could actually command

18     to a person of higher rank and this person, as I've already said was the

19     deputy in our unit and that person was a very pleasant, easy going

20     individual you could talk to and explain your problems, and so on.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, line 22, says -- sorry now I've lost

23     it, but it referred to Pelemis as a lieutenant-colonel.  That should be

24     clarified.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a second lieutenant.

Page 1914

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, which page and which line?

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Perhaps it got fixed.  It said Pelemis was a

 4     lieutenant-colonel and I just wanted it corrected.  I don't see that

 5     anymore.  So maybe it got fixed.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You raised too early.  Not patient enough.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And thank you, Mr. Erdemovic.  You have just explained this

12     perfectly because this Kremenovic was a lieutenant, and Pelemis was the

13     second lieutenant; so here we had a situation where a second lieutenant

14     was a commander to a lieutenant, correct?  Is that what situation was?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, please, whether Kremenovic was

17     arrested at the same time when you were?  Thank you.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Tell us, please, did he have any role in your transfer to

20     The Hague and did he come with you to The Hague voluntarily and then was

21     released and sent back; or was he -- did he come to The Hague as an

22     accused?  Thank you.

23        A.   I don't know how it was that Kremenovic came The Hague and under

24     what conditions, whether he was an accused or a witness, I can't really

25     describe.  But after Kremenovic and I were arrested in his house, I can't

Page 1915

 1     remember in what town it was in Serbia, from that moment on I had no

 2     further contacts with Kremenovic.  And my Defence counsel had no

 3     information about him of that type.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  It was mentioned that he, too, was brought to

 5     The Hague.  Was that the case?  Thank you.  It was said in the public

 6     that he, too, was brought to The Hague; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, it was true.  Kremenovic, too, came to The Hague.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Was he in charge of your platoon and was he in

 9     Srebrenica with you, or was someone else the platoon commander?  Thank

10     you.

11        A.   As I already described, he was a deputy commander of our unit.

12     He was not in Srebrenica.  They were on some other mission.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, please, who was in charge of your unit there

14     Srebrenica then?  Thank you.

15        A.   Franc Kos.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did he have a rank at the time or was he a private?

17     Thank you.

18        A.   I think that he was the second lieutenant.  I think he was given

19     this rank of second lieutenant, but I can't really be quite certain.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Was Brano Gojkovic of a higher rank compared to him

21     or not?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   The reason I'm asking this is that in your statement you say at

24     one point that Gojkovic issued orders.  Does that mean that he issued

25     orders to Kos as well although he didn't have a rank higher than his?

Page 1916

 1     Thank you.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, that is suggesting that this occurred at

 5     Srebrenica, and he has mixed up the two incidents at the farm and

 6     Srebrenica.  If he could be clear so that the witness understands what he

 7     is talking about.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:   Mr. Tolimir, can you clarify that?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             I asked the witness whether Kos or Gojkovic, rather, was Kos's

11     superior when they were at the farm or not, because the witness said that

12     he had issued orders there to Kos although Kos had a higher rank.  Thank

13     you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything that happened at the

15     Branjevo farm, Brano and Aleksander Cvetkovic they were the organisers of

16     those events.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Let's clarify one more thing.  We have 1D132.  Could we please

19     see that.  This is from the Popovic case when Mr. Todorovic testified,

20     who will also appear in this case.  In the transcript on page 14041,

21     lines 16 through 24, I quote the OTP witness, Todorovic:

22             "I know that Mr. Gojkovic did not have orders, that did he not

23     have a rank, that he could not issue commands, that he should not command

24     any member of the Sabotage Unit."

25             And then he says again in the question.  I quote:

Page 1917

 1             "Well, do you know who was in the group that went to the farm

 2     then?

 3             He says:

 4             "It was Franc Kos who was a second lieutenant, and had he not

 5     been there, this would have been done by Drazen Erdemovic who would

 6     signed that document."

 7             And now, in view of this, my question is the following:  Did I

 8     quote this correctly and could you read this in the transcript, seeing

 9     that you know English and speak English?

10        A.   I don't really understand what equipment you're talking about.

11        Q.   Well, these are Todorovic's words.  I just quoted what he said.

12     He was saying about this Gojkovic person, that he had issued equipment to

13     soldiers and not to issue orders.  And you said:

14             "I know that did he not have" -- he said, "I know that he did not

15     have a rank, that he could not issue orders to any members of the

16     sabotage group."

17             And then you say:

18             "All right.  Well, do you know who was in charge of that group

19     who had left?"

20             And you said Franc Kos, who was the sergeant, and who signed off

21     on the equipment, and if he hadn't been there, then that paper would have

22     been signed by Drazen Erdemovic.

23             Is this what you said?  I just want you to confirm because I

24     don't want the Trial Chamber to think that you said things that weren't

25     -- that I said things that weren't in the transcript.

Page 1918

 1        A.   I understand what was recorded in the transcript.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have many problems.  The first is I didn't

 3     understand who was testifying in this transcript.  The second is if you

 4     read something out, you should slow down.  It is very complicated for the

 5     record and for the interpreters.

 6             Could you please again indicate who is testifying in this

 7     transcript we have on the screen?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             I asked that page 1 -- or actually 1D132 be pulled up on the

10     monitors.  This is the testimony of Dragan Todorovic who will appear as a

11     witness in this trial as well.  And he mentioned all three individuals

12     here and their hierarchy, and I mentioned the relevant portions of his

13     transcript -- of his testimony in the case, on page 14041 in the

14     transcript, line 16 through 24, and I said what he said.  That he knew

15     that Gojkovic could not issue any orders --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Thank you, you answered my question.

17     Now we see it on the screen, beginning from line 16.

18             Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I think that clears it up.

20     Dragan Todorovic is a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.  The

21     reference was that Mr. Erdemovic was saying this.  That is what confused

22     everyone.  And as long as it is clear that this is the testimony of

23     Dragan Todorovic, I think Mr. Erdemovic should be able to answer the

24     question.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, could you help us with an answer?

Page 1919

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not familiar with this name

 2     Dragan Todorovic.  Was he in the 10th Sabotage Detachment or not?

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not entitled to tell you anything that would

 5     suggest the answer to you.  If you know something, fine; if you don't,

 6     just say so.  He was just an OTP witness, and the Prosecution knows who

 7     and what he was.  I'm just asking you if it is possible that there could

 8     be such a confusion.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I would object to him instructing the

11     witness on what he can and it cannot say.  And also the -- I think the

12     law is clear he may ask a leading question where he is suggesting an

13     answer to the witness, so --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey I'm -- I don't agree with you.  He

15     was -- it was an open question and the witness is capable to answer that

16     question.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I agree.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If there is something unclear, you should deal

21     with that in re-examination.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  My objection was based on him talking to the

23     witness and saying what he could or could not say to him, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  He -- no, I don't agree, Mr. McCloskey.  He said

25     to him, If you don't know then just say I don't know.

Page 1920

 1             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

 3     apologise that I told the witness that I couldn't tell him because I'm

 4     not the one who can provide information.  I am the one who is asking

 5     questions.  That is all.  I did not wish to say anything else and I did

 6     not wish to involve the witness into anything that would induce him to

 7     say one thing or another.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Erdemovic.  It is sufficient for me that you said

10     you do not know Mr. Dragan Todorovic.  I have no need to ask you anything

11     else about him.

12             We shall move on to the next set of questions.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I just was not looking at you

14     because I tried to figure out what was the correct question of

15     Mr. Tolimir.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I understand I am -- I am -- I just want to

17     clear up one area of law, and we, perhaps, don't need to do in front of

18     the witness, but Mr. Tolimir perhaps he should get an instruction later

19     that he does have the right, as a cross-examiner, to put information to

20     the witness.  And he should know that because it is a fundamental right

21     that he has, and I don't know if that was reflected in his knowledge or

22     that was just a comment he made.  But he -- he perhaps -- Your Honours

23     will want to instruct him that he can say, It is our position, based on

24     the evidence, that you were a sergeant.  He can provide information.

25     That is a fundamental right he has in asking leading questions to a

Page 1921

 1     witness, and I just want to make sure that he know this is early in the

 2     case, and I apologise for interrupting.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey.  Perhaps I

 4     misunderstood you.  And, therefore, I'm -- I appreciate your explanation,

 5     that clarifies the situation.

 6             And I think Mr. Tolimir knows about his rights and will be able

 7     to deal with this.

 8             Carry on, please.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, I wish to apologise to you.  I did not want to ask

12     any further questions because I received an answer.  I do not expect any

13     cunning answers from you.  I expect frank answers, and this is why I

14     asked a frank question.  So thank you.

15             My next question is this:  Did you voluntarily go on mission on

16     the 15th of July 1995, did you volunteer for that or were you assigned to

17     do that?  Please tell us how that happened.

18        A.   Our unit was accommodated in the barracks in Bijeljina as I said.

19     You mentioned the contract that we signed in February of 1995.  I cannot

20     see it in front of me, but I know that I signed the contract.  I don't

21     remember the exact date.

22             We had a normal working day, from 8.00 a.m. till 5.00 p.m.  We

23     had to go to the barracks and spend the whole day there.  And, of course,

24     when there was an action, then we had to be on alert 24 hours, and it was

25     like that with those who were appointed as duty officers and duty

Page 1922

 1     personnel on a particular day, then it was the same with them.

 2             On that day, on the 10th of July, 1995, we arrived to the

 3     barracks just on any other normal day.  We were then told to go home and

 4     take a uniform that we should change into uniform and come back in half

 5     an hour because we would be going into action.  They did not tell us

 6     particularly what action that would be, but I remember that I went home

 7     and took some personal hygiene items and I returned to the barracks.

 8             Not long after that, we set off in the direction of Zvornik.

 9        Q.   Yes.  Please explain that to us in your own words.

10             Let me not interrupt you.  The question was:  How did you come to

11     go to Srebrenica.  So explain everything that you think is necessary.

12     Thank you.

13        A.   As I already said, when we came to the barracks in the morning,

14     Franc Kos told to us go home and fetch the personnel hygiene items and an

15     extra uniform because we would go into action.  He did not tell us at the

16     time where the action would take place.  That's what I can say, that we

17     were issued such an order on that day in the morning that we would be

18     going into action.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to interrupt you very shortly.  We

21     had two different dates on the records.  Page 60 line 14 in your

22     question, you were referring to the 15th of July, 1995.  And I would like

23     to know from the -- if the witness could indicate, is he talking about

24     the 15th or the 10th of July, as indicated on line 25 of the same page.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on the 10th of July.

Page 1923

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             Please carry on.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

 4     pointing out the error in transcript.  It is possible that I said the

 5     15th of July instead of 10th of July.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Let me quote once again this Mr. Todorovic, who was an OTP

 8     witness.  And he was a sort of company commander in your platoon.  And

 9     the document is page 2, and the page of transcript is 14041, line 25.

10     And page of transcript 14042, where asked by Prosecutor McCloskey -- this

11     is the question, I'm quoting:

12             "You noticed that Drazen Erdemovic joined this group later.  Can

13     you tell us something more about it?  What were the circumstances under

14     which Erdemovic was a member of the group?"

15             And Witness Todorovic answers:

16             "Well, he did not want to stay on his own at the base.  The

17     Intervention Platoon had already left.  Some of the units were having

18     free time, and they were on furlough.  Instead of going to Bijeljina on

19     his own, he joined the group that left the base."

20             I apologise to interpreters.  I will mention again the last

21     sentence:

22             "Well, he didn't want to stay on his own in the base.  The

23     Intervention Squad had already left.  Some of the troops were on

24     furlough.  Instead of going to Bijeljina on his own, he joined the group

25     that left the base."

Page 1924

 1             And my question is this:  Mr. Erdemovic, can you please comment

 2     on the statement of this Todorovic, whom you say you don't know, and

 3     whether it is truthful or not?  Thank you.

 4        A.   I don't understand what is discussed here, what was the event,

 5     what base?  Which base?  And let me say that, again, the name

 6     Dragan Todorovic means nothing to me.

 7        Q.   Well, in this transcript, there was talk of the 15th of July.  So

 8     that was after the funeral when you were supposed to go to Srebrenica

 9     again.  Is that true or not?  I have assisted you now because I have told

10     you that the date here was the 15th of July when you were supposed to go

11     there again.  Thank you.

12        A.   I really do not understand what this is about.

13        Q.   Thank you.  That was a Prosecution witness, and what he said

14     probably served some other purpose in another case.

15             So did you go with your unit to Srebrenica simultaneously or not?

16     Thank you.

17        A.   Well, he issued the order when you can see my name and the names

18     of other persons from my unit, the Bijeljina Platoon.  You can see that

19     we all went together, because the order was issued to everyone, and we

20     all left together on that day.  I don't understand what this person, this

21     Dragan Todorovic is talking about here.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I do not wish to be tiresome with Dragan Todorovic.

23     Just tell me, did you go to Srebrenica together with everyone else, or

24     did you come later?  This is the only thing that I'm interested in.

25     Thank you.

Page 1925

 1        A.   Yes.  I went together with everyone else on a bus that morning.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In an interview given by your commander, Misa, from

 3     the 10th Sabotage Detachment, in November 1955 [as interpreted] on

 4     page 7, paragraph 2, that was the weekly "Nin," this is what he says.

 5     I'm quoting and I will ask you if this is true or not, what he says there

 6     and you remember well, so please see.

 7             In November 1995, that is 1D119 so that you and others could

 8     follow.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could Mr. Tolimir be clear on who Misa is so

11     everyone knows who Misa is.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             I said your commander Misa.  I think that it is known who the

14     commander was and Mr. Erdemovic said already who the commander of his

15     unit was.  So I said, did you read -- I'm quoting part of the interview

16     which Mr. Pelemis gave to the weekly "Nin."  The document is 1D119 on

17     page 7, paragraph 2.  Could you please pull that up on it's screen and

18     for Mr. McCloskey, the answer is that it was Misa Pelemis who was the

19     commander.

20             Thank you.

21             Thank you I will now quote.  In English it is page 7,

22     paragraph 2, "In November --" I'm quoting from his interview.  "In

23     November 1995 --"

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Wait a moment, please.  You should indicate for

25     the witness which part of this interview and the newspaper you are

Page 1926

 1     referring to.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have said page 7, paragraph 2, it

 3     givens with the words:  "In November 1995 ..."

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you please indicate where in this article in

 5     B/C/S, the witness can find it and then it could be zoomed in.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My assistants will see where it is

 7     because the font is very small.  So they will tell you what line it is.

 8     And in the English version, it's page 7, paragraph 2.  Page 7,

 9     paragraph 2.  I cannot read English, so ...

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Tolimir, but the article was

11     not from 1995 but from 2005, from what I can see here.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, the article was

13     published in 2005, but it talks about 1995 and I'm quoting him.  He says:

14             "In November 1995, I sent a letter to the Main Command that the

15     man is to be sent to a psychiatric ward."

16             In B/C/S, it is the second page and the third column:

17             "He had shown before," and then there's something that is not

18     clear, "most probably because of the actions he had had.  The average was

19     two or three actions and he had already had six, seven actions.  He

20     volunteered."

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   My question is this:  Do you know that this is what your

23     commander said about you in the press, and is it true or not?  Thank you.

24        A.   This is not true, but, on the other hand, I would not be

25     surprised by anything coming from this person.

Page 1927

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you for your answer.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need our second break.  I was waiting for a

 3     convenient time, but now it's at the latest point.  We must have our

 4     second break now.

 5             And we will resume at quarter past 6.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 6.19 p.m.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We apologise for the late return.  We were

 9     occupied by another commitment.

10             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   We will now move to a different group of questions.  I would

14     kindly ask you to tell me the following:  Before the attack on

15     Srebrenica, before the arrival in Srebrenica before combat operations,

16     did you receive an order informing that you should not fire into

17     civilians, not set houses on fire, and so on.  We've used up a lot of

18     time.  I don't want to quote everything now.  But please tell me this.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Who issued the order to you?

21        A.   Commander of our unit, Pelemis, Milorad Pelemis.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, what exactly did Pelemis tell you as

23     the commander and did you abide by that while in combat in Srebrenica and

24     around Srebrenica?

25        A.   Yes.  Commander Pelemis told us we shouldn't shoot at civilians,

Page 1928

 1     that we should call civilians to leave their homes and that we should

 2     directly them to walk in front of us towards the football stadium.

 3        Q.   All right.  And did you act in accordance with that during

 4     combat?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In order to be fully fair to Pelemis, I will quote his

 7     transcript.  Lines 17 to 19, page 10345.

 8             Page 10945 and lines 17 to 19 as well.  I'm quoting:

 9             "As I have said, we should not shoot without reason.  We should

10     call upon people to leave their homes.  He told us not shoot at

11     civilians.  We were told that we can expect great resistance and that we

12     were the first unit to enter the town."

13             I apologise the interpreters.  I wanted to conclude this as

14     quickly as possible.

15             My question is:  Is it true what I have just read?  Is that how

16     he said it to you?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I must confess, I'm lost.  I don't

19     know which page.  We have two different references here.  Could you

20     indicate again the page number of which transcript.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22     Transcript 10945, lines 17 to 19.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have 1D119 which is

25     the interview given by Pelemis as commander of the

Page 1929

 1     10th Sabotage Detachment, on the 22nd of September, 2005, for the weekly

 2     "Nin" from Belgrade.  I will quote what he said there.  I'm quoting.  We

 3     can see it on the screen now:

 4             "I have to say that there were no hints for what was going to

 5     follow later and Erdemovic confirmed that.  I lined up all my people and

 6     I explained to them that none of them should set any houses on fire.  All

 7     civilians and war prisoners need to be kept safe at the centre of

 8     Srebrenica at the sports stadium there."

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   My question is:  Is it true that Pelemis said this, is it true

11     that he lined you up and told you what I have just read out to you now?

12     Thank you.

13        A.   Yes, along those lines.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Erdemovic.  Since we are skipping over some

15     questions so as not to keep you here tomorrow, tell me, please, were

16     there any NATO strikes against you at Srebrenica while you were there?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you know whether they hit any of the targets?  Are you aware

19     of any such instances?

20        A.   As far as I know, when we were at the entrance into town, when we

21     were in a suburb, as I learned later, they did hit the area close to the

22     house where the command of the Drina Wolves were and Deliko [phoen] was

23     hit.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, when was Pelemis injured and when

25     was your colleague killed, the one whose funeral you attended?

Page 1930

 1        A.   On the 12th of July of 1995.

 2        Q.   Did you receive an order on the 12th of July telling you that you

 3     had leave until the 21st of July?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see 1D119, the

 5     penultimate paragraph.  Perhaps this would help the witness give his

 6     answer.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which page and column in the B/C/S?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D119, page 2, penultimate

 9     paragraph.

10             Mr. Pelemis said:

11             "On the 12th, in the morning, we were given an order informing us

12     that we were on leave until the 21st of July."

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have that on the screen, I think.  We

14     have the right document but perhaps not the right paragraph.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian version needs to be

16     moved so that we see the entire page.  This is 1D119, page 2, penultimate

17     paragraph, where it says and I'm quoting:

18             "On the 12th, in the morning, we were given an order informing us

19     that we were on leave until the 21st of July.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Is that correct?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Tell us, please, until what time --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone

25     not activated] we have the right document but ...

Page 1931

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now move the document to

 2     the left so that we can see the Serbian version.  And it's page 4 in the

 3     English.

 4             All right.  We can see it now here in the first column, third

 5     bullet reads, I'm quoting:

 6             "On the 12th, in the morning, at about 10.00, 11.00, we received

 7     an order that we were on leave until the 21st of July.  About 3.00 or

 8     4.00 p.m. on the 12th, we withdrew along the Srebrenica-Milic-Vlasenica

 9     axis.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Sir, what I just read out, is it true and were you really on

12     leave after your friend was killed so that you could attend his funeral?

13        A.   I wasn't on leave.  I was designated to go and attend the funeral

14     in Trebinje.

15        Q.   All right.  Well, that's what I said.  You were on leave in the

16     sense that you didn't have to participate in combat operations, so you

17     went to the funeral and when did you come back?

18        A.   Which came in the morning on the 15th.

19        Q.   In this interview your commander says that he was injured and

20     that he was on sick-leave and on treatment.  Is that true?

21        A.   When exactly was he on sick-leave?

22        Q.   After that event and -- during the funeral -- or, rather, did he

23     attend the funeral with you?

24        A.   No.  He did not attend the funeral.  And on the 16th in the

25     morning, he was present at Dragasevac, at the headquarters of the

Page 1932

 1     Vlasenica Platoon.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecution showed two

 4     documents here.  One is the document they showed for an earlier witness,

 5     008690096 in e-court.  And it's 4037 on the OTP 65 ter list.

 6             Could we pull that document on the screen, please.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you tendering the last document,

 8     the interview?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

10     Could that be admitted into evidence, please.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would object to that, Mr. President, as a

13     violation of the rules required by 92 bis and the other rules.  And it's

14     a newspaper interview so its reliability to the Court shouldn't be much.

15     And this person is available and perhaps could be called as witness.  He

16     may be available, but I know he is alive and well.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will deal with that later, not to waste the

18     time.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I simply

20     wanted to tender into evidence the document that I put to the witness

21     here, and this document speaks about his unit and the events in which he

22     participated, and it's up to the Court to decide whether it will be

23     admitted or not.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will deal with that later.  We have now the

25     document you were asking for on the screen, and please continue and put

Page 1933

 1     questions to the witness.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness, I will now read out from a document which was OTP

 5     65 ter 4037.

 6             Please listen to this, and I will put my question later:

 7             "The President of Republika Srpska was informed of successful

 8     combat operations around Srebrenica by units of the Drina Corps and that

 9     they have achieved results which enable them to take the very town of

10     Srebrenica."

11             That's the first paragraph.  You see that here, don't you:

12             "The President of Republika Srpska is satisfied with the results

13     of combat operations around Srebrenica and has agreed with the

14     continuation of operations for the takeover of Srebrenica, disarming all

15     Muslim terrorist gangs and complete demilitarisation of the Srebrenica

16     enclave."

17             That's the second paragraph.

18             The third paragraph, you can follow it on the screen:

19             "The President of Republika Srpska ordered that combat operations

20     be continued, that full protection be ensured to UNPROFOR members and the

21     Muslim civilian population and that they be guaranteed safety in the

22     event that they cross over to the territory of Republika Srpska."

23             That's the third paragraph.

24             I thank the interpreters.

25             I'm now reading the fourth paragraph:

Page 1934

 1              "In accordance with the order of the President of the Republika

 2     Srpska ... issuing an order to all combat units participating in combat

 3     operations around Srebrenica to ensure maximum protection and safety to

 4     all UNPROFOR members and the civilian Muslim population.  ... order the

 5     subordinate units to refrain from destroying civilian targets unless they

 6     are forced to do so by strong enemy resistance.  Forbid torching of

 7     residential buildings and treat ... civilian population and war prisoners

 8     in accordance with the Geneva Conventions of 12th August, 1949."

 9             Signed by assistant commander, Major-General Zdravko Tolimir.

10     Thank you.

11             I have read out this order and now tell me, please, were similar

12     orders forwarded to you, namely that you should abide by the instructions

13     issued by the Main Staff that no action be taken against civilians, that

14     no houses be set on fire and that you act in accordance with the

15     Geneva Conventions?

16        A.   Yes.  As I have said to you, the commander of our unit,

17     Milorad Pelemis told us not to shoot at civilians and to direct them to

18     go to the football pitch, which was in front of us, in Srebrenica.  I

19     don't remember him mentioning the Geneva Conventions, but the rest was

20     along those lines.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, 4037 is this document

23     on the OTP 65 ter list, and I tender it into evidence.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D41, Your Honour.

Page 1935

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Earlier while you were examined by the Prosecutor, we saw a

 3     document which was an order of the 10th Sabotage Detachment containing a

 4     list.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is 04239 --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't catch the rest.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  This is

 8     Exhibit P00233.  All right, we have it on the screen.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   It says here:

11             "Pursuant the order dated 10th of July."

12             So this order that you received by Pelemis, was it written based

13     on this other order, that I have just mentioned or was based on some

14     other order?

15        A.   Well, I don't really know.  I didn't see this order until last

16     year, I think.  But judging by the date, I think this is an order to the

17     officers in Bijeljina, in the barracks, who were to be deployed from

18     Bijeljina to Vlasenica and Bratunac.

19        Q.   Thank you.  This is the first time that I see this order myself

20     because it was only admitted into evidence today.

21             But I just asked you whether it was based on this order that you

22     received your orders and instructions on how to comport yourself.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've just been told by my

24     assistant, my legal assistant, that was this was already -- that this

25     document has already been admitted into evidence.  Thank you.

Page 1936

 1             Thank you.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Now we're going move on to the events at the Branjevo farm.

 4             You said - and we have it on the transcript - that between 1.000

 5     and 1500 -- or 1200 people were killed there, and that this is your free

 6     assessment.

 7             Did I quote you correctly or not?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Was this estimate just approximate or do you allow

10     for this figure to be either smaller or larger?

11        A.   I can't really say that this is the correct figure.  I don't

12     think it is bigger.  It is possible that it is a smaller number but I

13     can't really tell how many persons exactly were involved.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You said during the examination-in-chief that you

15     refused to go to Zvornik or, to be more precise, to Pilica, where you

16     were to kill some people at the cultural centre; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.  A few people from my unit and I, myself, refused.  We said

18     that we didn't want to abide by that order.

19        Q.   Thank you.  But you said also during the examination-in-chief

20     that you were at a cafe near the cultural hall or culture centre in

21     Pilica; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Later on you said that you heard some shooting and that some 500

24     people were killed on that occasion, which is something that was being

25     said while you were later on in Branjevo when you refused to participate

Page 1937

 1     in these events; is that correct?

 2        A.   Well, I did not mention the 500 people.  That figure, 500

 3     individuals.  It was mentioned by the lieutenant-colonel.  And as for the

 4     shots and the hand-grenades explosions, I did hear that while we were

 5     still on the farm.  We hadn't left the farm yet.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So you weren't an eye-witness to these events.  You

 7     just mentioned, in fact, that you heard the blasts, the explosions; am I

 8     correct or not?

 9        A.    Well, afterwards when we left the cafe, when we left the farm,

10     we could see, because there was a regiment of the police, that there

11     were -- we could see some bodies outside the cultural hall.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you -- could you, yourself, make an estimate of

13     how many bodies there were, or did you just say that, based on the words

14     of that person?

15        A.   Well, I just repeated what this person in Branjevo said.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Erdemovic, for your answers and for

17     your evidence and thank you for coming to testify before this

18     Trial Chamber today.  I apologise for putting some questions that I

19     wanted clarified for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and this trial.  I

20     thank you again, and I wish you a safe journey home to where you reside

21     now.  I don't want to mentioned name of that place.  And I also would

22     like to thank the interpreters for bearing with us because we were trying

23     to finish with your testimony as fast as we could so that you could leave

24     today because that was what you said your desire was.

25             Thank you.  I have completed my cross-examination.

Page 1938

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir, especially for

 2     your kind words.

 3             I think we should today mark the document 1D119 for

 4     identification, and we will come back to that for a decision.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D42 marked for

 6     identification, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  And something else you used, the

 8     document 1D00133, do you tender that?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

11             Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just two questions, two or three questions,

13     Mr. President, and would you like to us write any motions or any support

14     for my objection to that one document or not?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it is it not necessary to have written

16     submissions.  I just wanted to postpone the decision.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

19        Q.   Mr. Erdemovic, General Tolimir, on pages 71 and 72, reiterated

20     Lieutenant Pelemis's admonition to the unit not to fire on any civilians.

21     Yet you have testified that when a man in civilian clothes claiming he

22     was civilian came into your group, Pelemis ordered that he be killed.

23             How do you account for that difference?

24        A.   Well, I am not the one to explain that to you.  I can't explain

25     why he made that decision, why he took that decision.  I don't know.  But

Page 1939

 1     I also stated here that he had told us not to fire at civilians and then

 2     some -- an hour or an hour and a half later, he ordered Maljic to slit

 3     that man's throat.  I cannot explain it.

 4        Q.   Was that throat-cutting filmed by the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

 5        A.   I don't really know that it was filmed by the

 6     10th Sabotage Detachment, but I saw for the first time when you showed it

 7     to me yesterday and asked me whether there was the person involved and

 8     whether that was the place where this man was killed, I told you that I

 9     couldn't really tell, because -- but -- because I saw the mosque there, I

10     said that I knew that there's a great chance that that was that person.

11     Now, who filmed that, I really don't know.

12        Q.   Did Kremenovic have a film of that person having his throat cut?

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14        A.   I can't remember precisely, but I think he did mention something

15     but I can't speculate.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Erdemovic.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this was not

19     something that I questioned the witness about during my

20     cross-examination.  I apologise to Mr. McCloskey, but I would appreciate

21     if he would confine his questions to the cross-examination.  I apologise

22     to the witness and thank him for his answers, but he cannot speak about

23     things he didn't see.

24             Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, could you give us a reference.

Page 1940

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Absolutely, Mr. President.  It was very clear to

 2     me, and I believe everyone in the courtroom, that General Tolimir was

 3     trying to count on Pelemis's order not to kill civilians as some sort of

 4     justification or some sort of defence that this didn't happen.

 5             As an officer of the court, I have reason to believe that -- and

 6     you've seen the evidence that he, in fact, ordered the murder of a man.

 7     And I have -- as an officer of the court, evidence that this was

 8     videotaped and kept by commanders of the 10th Sabotage Detachment as late

 9     as 1996 and that it was something that they had a record of indicating it

10     would be something that they were proud of and wanted to keep for

11     history.

12             So this idea that there was a real order not to -- not kill

13     people is totally undercut by their taking and holding this video of

14     something being killed.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Tolimir, do you want to put a question to this topic to the

17     witness?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness clearly stated during

19     the re-direct that he wasn't sure that that was the same person but that

20     he saw the mosque, and based on that, he judged that perhaps this image

21     actually related to that incident but he said that he couldn't tell that

22     this was -- he didn't know whether this was actually videotaped by the

23     10th Sabotage Detachment.

24             So I just pointed out what the witness had said, and I don't

25     think that the witness should now be led to say things that he hadn't

Page 1941

 1     said before, and he said that he had seen it for the first time

 2     yesterday.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Then I take it you don't want to put

 4     another question to the witness.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

 7             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Mr. McCloskey, can you direct us to today's

 8     transcript in cross-examination --

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE NYAMBE:  It's okay, Mr. McCloskey.  I withdraw my attempt

11     to have you point at the record where that issue was raised.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I can assure

13     Your Honours, I do not deliberately ever go outside the scope of

14     cross-examination.  If I do wish to do so, I will ask you to reopen my

15     re-direct, and I think you'll find that that is the reputation of this

16     trial team and my directions are strict to all my trial team members.

17     And I would like it if I could continue this witness to stay over till

18     tomorrow so I can show him the documents that I'm referring to about this

19     tape to help refresh his recollection, or in the very least, since there

20     appears to be some question regarding the Prosecution on this, that I am

21     able to show that material to you so that you understand I do have a

22     reason to believe there is another tape, and I'm not talking about the

23     piece of tape that we played, that was taped from the 12th of July.

24     There was talk and statements of another tape that actually showed this

25     killing, and I'm -- could show that to help refresh this witness's

Page 1942

 1     recollection, to clear up this matter.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I think nobody is challenging the

 3     reputation of the Prosecution's team.  Absolutely not.  But sometimes we

 4     have to -- a discussion about on the rules of on re-examination.  And

 5     therefore -- and perhaps you understood Judge Nyambe, she withdraw --

 6     withdrew the -- the question she wanted to put to you.  And, therefore, I

 7     think we are at the end of the questioning of this witness.  The Chamber

 8     has no more questions for the witness, and I think perhaps Mr. Tolimir

 9     has an additional question.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I was

11     just about to say that in my cross-examination I never mentioned the

12     event that Mr. McCloskey is now referring to.  I just mentioned -- I

13     asked the witness about the order issued by Mr. Pelemis, and I asked the

14     witness whether Pelemis had said this in that sheltered area where they

15     were, and there was nothing in the transcript where I mentioned anything

16     or tried in any way to impute anything to Mr. McCloskey or anyone else,

17     and least of all to the witness, because the witness told us everything

18     he knew about this.

19             Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, one answer of the witness to your

21     question dealt with this order and the reality.  I don't want to go into

22     further details.  And I think we are at a stage now to -- not to continue

23     a discussion about this topic.

24             We will find in -- in future occasions enough reasons for

25     discussing the scope of cross and re-examination.  I'm sure we will find

Page 1943

 1     a way to deal with it in the proper way.

 2             Mr. Erdemovic, will you be pleased to hear that this concludes

 3     your evidence and the questioning for you.  The Chamber would like to

 4     thank you, that you were able to attend this trial and to come to

 5     The Hague again, and you may now return to your normal activities.

 6             Thank you very much again.  The Court Officer will help you out.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are there any matters to raise?  I think,

 9     especially, what is about the trial tomorrow and is there a witness

10     available?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I apologise for being a little

12     sensitive and cranky at the end of the evening, and, Your Honour Nyambe,

13     I apologise.

14             Tomorrow we have spoken to Mr. Gajic, and we have Mr. Janc

15     available for his continuing cross-examination, and I'm told that it may

16     take some time so it should take the full day tomorrow.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This seems to be convenient for you as well,

18     Mr. Tolimir.

19             Then we will have Mr. Janc as the next witness tomorrow.

20             Thank you very much.  We adjourn now and resume tomorrow in the

21     afternoon, 2.15 p.m.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23                      --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

24                      to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of May,

25                      2010, at 2.15 p.m.