Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2195

 1                           Monday, 31 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in this unusual

 6     courtroom.  I'm convinced we will manage our trial -- our hearing here as

 7     well.

 8             Are there any preliminary matters?  I don't think so.

 9             Mr. Vanderpuye.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.

11     Good afternoon, everyone.  I just wanted to alert the Court.  I

12     understand that we have a B/C/S translation for P00214, which is now in

13     e-court.  It was 65 ter 6277.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it a document which was marked for

15     identification?  And which is the number?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I understand it was a letter from the

17     US government concerning aerial imagery.  It was P214.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I understand that was marked for

19     identification.  It will be now an exhibit.  Thank you very much.

20             The witness should be brought in.

21             Am I right if I say that this witness has face distortion but not

22     voice distortion, and a pseudonym?

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 2196

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome to The Hague again.

 2     Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to

 3     you now.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  And now please sit down.

 7             It's not the first time that you are in The Hague here in the

 8     Tribunal.  I hope you will remember the procedure which is in place and

 9     the protective measures for you.  If you at any time during the

10     examination need a break, please tell us and we will help you to

11     stabilise your situation.

12             Mr. Vanderpuye has some questions for you.

13             Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And once again, good

15     afternoon to you and Your Honours.

16                           WITNESS:  PW-005

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

19        Q.   And good afternoon to you, Witness.  I'm going to ask you a few

20     questions in relation to your evidence in this case.  As you know, my

21     name is Kweku Vanderpuye.  If I ask you any question that is unclear,

22     please let me know so that I can rephrase it in a way that we can best

23     understand one another.  I'm going to ask you to try and speak a little

24     bit slowly so that the interpreters have a chance to translate what you

25     say and what I say so that everyone can understand each other.

Page 2197

 1             The first thing I'd like to show you is 65 ter 6286.  It should

 2     appear on the screen in front of you in just a moment.  Can you see

 3     what's in the screen in front of you, sir?

 4        A.   I can see that.

 5        Q.   Without telling us what's on it, can you confirm that you are the

 6     person that is named in this document?

 7        A.   It is.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to move this into

10     evidence at this time.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P259, under seal.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:

14        Q.   Witness, I'd like to ask you, do you recall having testified in

15     the case Prosecutor versus Popovic et al. --

16        A.   I remember.

17        Q.   -- on 8 February 2007?

18        A.   I do remember.

19        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to review that testimony before

20     coming to court today?

21        A.   Review where?

22        Q.   Well, did you have an opportunity to listen to your prior

23     testimony before coming to court today?

24        A.   I did.  I did.

25        Q.   And having listened to your testimony, can you confirm that it is

Page 2198

 1     accurate and truthful, that is, that what you said is accurate and

 2     truthful?

 3        A.   What I have seen and what I have gone through, I'll always stand

 4     behind that.

 5        Q.   And does the testimony that you listened to, your testimony,

 6     fairly and accurately reflect what you would say if you were to be asked

 7     the same questions here today and examined?

 8        A.   I can repeat the same thing to every question.

 9        Q.   All right.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would move the prior testimony

11     and the accompanying exhibits into evidence at this time.  They are --

12     the testimony is 65 ter number 6284 and 6285.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And, Mr. President, the accompanying exhibits --

15     oh, I'm sorry.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 6284 will be Exhibit P260, under seal,

17     while 65 ter 6285 will be Exhibit P261.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would also move in the exhibits

19     that were admitted through this witness's testimony as well.  They are --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many are they?

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  They are four.  The first is 65 ter 1003.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I try to find it on my list, 1003 -- yes, it's a

23     photo of the Kravica warehouse.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P262.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The next is 65 ter 3370.

Page 2199

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P263.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The next is 65 ter 3371.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P264.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And 65 ter 3372.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be received as well.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P265.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  Mr. President, I would like to read

10     a brief summary of the 92 ter statement.  It shouldn't take more than

11     five minutes.  I expect that's about as much time as I will take.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If that is really a summary, it would be

13     appreciated.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think it is.

15             Let me begin.  The witness was a survivor or is a survivor of an

16     execution of over a thousand Bosnian Muslim men and boys by VRS and MUP

17     forces which took place at the Kravica warehouse on 13 July 1995.

18             On 11 July 1995, the witness was forced to abandon his home in

19     Srebrenica, where he had lived all his life.  As the town and surrounding

20     villages fell, the witness had to separate from his wife and two

21     daughters near the village of Ravne Njive.  While they fled to Potocari,

22     the witness made his way towards Jaglici, where he learned a gathering of

23     all the men would take place in order to go through the woods to Tuzla.

24     The witness recalled that his brother and nephew who decided to go to

25     Potocari did not survive.

Page 2200

 1             The witness arrived at Jaglici that evening, he spent the night

 2     there, and on the 12th, set out from there for Buljim, where he

 3     encountered the first of two ambushes in which many men were killed.

 4     When night fell, the witness and his group of six or seven along with

 5     many others were again ambushed and shelled at a river near Kamenica.

 6     The witness recalled hearing the sound of a Praga being fired and that

 7     there were so many dead bodies that you could step from one to the other

 8     one.

 9             On 13 July, as the ambush survivors regrouped, the witness

10     recognised many people from his village.  Later, amid bursts of gun-fire,

11     they were forced to surrender in the hills above Kamenica.  The men were

12     then taken to a meadow which the witness was later told was in Lolici.

13     The witness heard that approximately 2.000 people had been captured.

14             In the meadow the witness recalled seeing a prisoner beaten

15     severely and then killed by a Serb soldier after asking for water.  The

16     witness recalled that General Mladic later arrived and addressed the

17     prisoners saying:

18             "Naser has deserted you.  He fled to Tuzla.  It's not a good idea

19     to fight with a Serb.  We have almost evacuated your families.  They are

20     accommodated in Tuzla, Kladanj, and another place.  Most likely within a

21     day or two you will follow and all of you will be able to find your

22     families.  Nobody will beat you, nobody will provoke you.  We will

23     provide you -- we will provide food for you.  It's very hot where you

24     are.  We will find cooler accommodation for you."

25             Following Mladic's speech, the witness and other prisoners were

Page 2201

 1     searched and their valuables taken.  Within about half an hour of

 2     General Mladic's departure, the prisoners were told to line up in a

 3     column, four abreast, and march towards Kravica between soldiers

 4     positioned at intervals several metres apart on both sides.  The witness

 5     saw civilians on the road as the prisoners walked towards Kravica.  On

 6     the way they also passed a UN APC.

 7             The witness arrived at the Kravica warehouse at around 16 or

 8     1700 hours.  At that time a bus was parked in front of the building which

 9     the witness and the other prisoners had to pass behind as they entered.

10     The side of the warehouse where the witness entered was nearly full and

11     the witness sat down amongst the prisoners near a corner against the

12     wall.  The warehouse was soon filled and the last prisoner to enter could

13     find no place to sit.  A soldier ordered him to do so and then struck and

14     kicked the prisoner.  When the prisoner responded that there was no space

15     for him to sit down, the soldier fired a burst into him.  At that moment

16     the shooting erupted, coming at the prisoners from all kinds of weapons,

17     which continued into the night.  The witness took cover among the dead

18     and lay still in the warehouse, covered in their blood for many hours.

19             Early on 14 July the witness got up to try to get some water but

20     was warned by a neighbour of his to stay down.  Later on, the neighbour

21     was killed, having himself momentarily risen in order to urinate.  The

22     witness pulled two bodies over himself and remained there the entire day.

23     When it became light, soldiers called for prisoners, saying that they

24     would be taken to hospital.  The wounded came out and were killed.  The

25     witness recalled that two other prisoners inside the warehouse were also

Page 2202

 1     shot down; one after repeatedly calling out someone's name and the other

 2     after pleading for water.

 3             At a certain point the witness heard commands being given to:

 4     "Park the loader, wash the asphalt, cover the dead with hay."  The

 5     soldiers came into the warehouse and threw hay all over the dead

 6     prisoners and the witness who lay among them.  The witness later saw this

 7     loader parked in front of the warehouse when he escaped.

 8             Sometime after midnight, that is, the early morning of 15 July,

 9     the witness pulled himself from under the dead bodies.  He encountered

10     two other survivors, the first of whom he asked to join in trying to

11     escape.  The witness was refused and instead managed to leave the

12     warehouse with the second prisoner undetected.  As he fled the witness

13     was spotted by soldiers who called for him to show himself.  However, the

14     witness managed to elude capture and made it to a nearby river.  From

15     there, together with the second survivor, the witness escaped through a

16     cornfield into the woods.

17             That concludes my summary, Mr. President, and I have a few

18     questions further to put to the witness and some documents -- some

19     exhibits to show him.

20             If I could please have in e-court 65 ter 999.

21        Q.   Witness, do you recognise what's on the screen in front of you?

22        A.   I recognise the warehouse well.  I don't recognise it as looking

23     exactly in 1991 or 1992, but I know what it looked like in 1995 when I

24     got there.  Now, how it looked like in 1996 and 1997, I don't know that

25     either because I don't know what changes they had made.  Because various

Page 2203

 1     people photographed it at various times.  I don't know what it looked

 2     like from the other side.  I know what it looked like from the side of

 3     the asphalt road by which I came.  I passed through the buses -- between

 4     the buses and the warehouse.  I passed the first entrance door and got

 5     into the second entrance door.  Two Serb soldiers were standing at the

 6     door.  I got in and one of my acquaintances motioned me to sit down next

 7     to him.

 8        Q.   Are you able to see the entrance door that you went in through in

 9     this picture?

10        A.   Here you see the first door.  This could be the second door, but

11     that was not the end of the building.  There was more of this warehouse

12     building.  This big door is not the one I got inside through.  All I know

13     is that I passed one door before I got into the next.  This doesn't look

14     exactly like the door I got into, but from which side this picture was

15     taken I don't know.

16        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you 65 ter 1003 and then we'll come back to

17     this one in a moment.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  If we could blow up more or less the

19     middle of the screen, just make it a little bit larger so he can see it

20     better.  Okay.

21        Q.   Are you able to -- are you able to recognise the door that you

22     came in through in this photograph?

23        A.   This must be the second door.  Now, what is this marked with

24     black?  From this door on there are more warehouses.  This is the first

25     door.

Page 2204

 1        Q.   All right.  I'd like you to mark this photograph, if you could,

 2     if we can have that done.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Court Officer will help you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first door, then this

 5     must be the second one.  I got in through the second door.  But it

 6     doesn't appear as it does when you look at it from the asphalt road.  It

 7     depends from which side this picture was taken.  I don't know that.  All

 8     I know is I passed one door before I got in through the next.  The

 9     warehouse was packed.  I had nowhere to sit down.  I had to go into a

10     corner to sit down.  There was no room close to the asphalt door.  I went

11     to the other end.  This could be the first and this could be the second

12     entrance door.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:

14        Q.   Could you mark the door that you think it might be.

15        A.   Well, how is this picture taken?  Was it taken from the asphalt

16     road or from the side?  Then this must be the second entrance door.  I

17     can mark it.  There's something like a black blob here.  I don't know

18     what it is.  All I know is I passed one door and got in through the next.

19     Now, is it really that one?  It doesn't look on the picture as I -- as it

20     looked when I went to Srebrenica to put in my application for return.

21     Now, from which side this picture was taken and how -- I mean, everyone

22     can see what these doors looked like.  It's a fact.

23        Q.   Can you just put a circle around the door that you think it might

24     be.  That way we can see what you're pointing at, because nobody can see

25     what you're pointing at right now.

Page 2205

 1        A.   If this is one door, then this is the second door.  I don't see

 2     any more doors.  This must be the door, but it doesn't look as it looked

 3     when I came there.

 4        Q.   Are you able to mark it or do you need some time to look at it?

 5     I can show you another exhibit if that will help you remember.

 6        A.   Let's see that other exhibit.  Well, we shouldn't be wasting time

 7     on this.  Everyone can go there and see what it looks like, this

 8     warehouse.  I know what it looked like when I came there.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let me show you 65 ter 1720.  Now, this is a document

10     that you marked some time ago, and I just want to show it to you to see

11     if that helps refresh your recollection.

12        A.   From the side of the asphalt road, the building runs parallel to

13     it, whereas here we have some corners.

14        Q.   Let me ask you some questions about ...

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  If we can just blow it up on the right

17     side where you can see the markings.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There you have the first entrance

19     door.  This is the first entrance door and this is the second.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:

21        Q.   Which is the second?  Can you describe what you see?

22        A.   This one here.  I can see the first and the second doors.  There

23     they are.

24        Q.   Is the second door to the left or to the right in this

25     photograph?

Page 2206

 1        A.   Both doors face the asphalt road.

 2        Q.   Yes, Mr. Witness.  Is the first door to the right of the picture

 3     or to the left of the picture?

 4        A.   As we reached the building from Lolici, we were on the left-hand

 5     side to the road, because to the right flows the river.  If we were to

 6     head towards Lolici, then it would be to the right of the asphalt road

 7     and to the left of the river.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, perhaps it will help everybody if you

 9     can make --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I reached the building, the

11     warehouse was to my right, so I passed by the first door and then got in

12     through the second door, and I was between the warehouse and the

13     parking-lot where the buses stood.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, I understand very well.  But could you

15     please for our help put a cross at the first door you were pointing at,

16     just a cross at the first door.  Which was it?  The door you passed by

17     and headed to the second door, which was the first one?

18             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

20             And then perhaps you can put a circle above the second door where

21     you entered the building.

22             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I think that is now

24     understandable for everybody.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

Page 2207

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would like actually to --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you like to --

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  -- tender this document, and then I would like

 5     to go back to the other ones and tender those as well because I think

 6     it's apparent from those other photos what he's marked.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This marked photo will be received.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P266, Your Honours.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think the first document I showed the witness

10     was 65 ter 999, and I would like to tender that document as well.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P267.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a request to make so that we

15     do not torment the witness.  We can do it this way this once.  However,

16     in the future, I think we should refrain from showing witnesses

17     photographs that had already been marked.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sometimes it's helpful to put a photo with

19     markings to a witness, or a map.  In this case I think it was an

20     appropriate way to find out which door was the substance of the evidence.

21     Thank you.

22             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             I think I had -- was about to refer to or had referred to

25     65 ter 1003.  That was the second photograph I think I showed the

Page 2208

 1     witness, and I would like to tender that witness [sic] --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is already an exhibit, P262.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  P262.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was part of the four documents.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  What I'd like to do is I'd like to have

 6     it back on the screen.  I'd like to show the witness and ask him some

 7     questions about that for a moment.

 8                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are waiting for P262.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There are some technical problems, as I'm told,

12     but it comes up now.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  If we could just focus a little bit

14     on the right side of the photograph and blow that -- the left side, I'm

15     sorry, of the photograph and blow that up a little bit.  Okay.

16        Q.   Witness, what I wanted to do was draw your attention to the

17     bottom of this photograph.  Do you see what appears to be a fence at the

18     bottom of this photograph?

19        A.   Yes, I can see it here.  At the time I did not see a fence,

20     however.  Perhaps fences and walls were added afterwards, but when I got

21     there I didn't see a fence.  I know what the warehouse looked like when I

22     got there.  I don't know what it looked like later.  I know what my house

23     looked like before I left and what it looked like when I got back.

24        Q.   All right.  I just wanted to clarify whether or not there was a

25     fence when you arrived there in July of 1995.

Page 2209

 1        A.   I didn't see it.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.  Now, in a previous statement you

 3     mentioned that inside the warehouse there was a small room.  Do you

 4     remember speaking about that back in 1996?

 5        A.   I remember.  On the night of Thursday, they were beating us

 6     inside.  I thought I heard water running.  I stood up and I had this

 7     vision of some sort of a room, but a neighbour of mine stopped me from

 8     going away.  He told me, "Sit down, there is no water here."  I don't

 9     know what happened to me.  Was I so frightened or deranged that I thought

10     I heard water running, though I never saw any water in the warehouse.

11        Q.   What I'd like to do -- well, there's two things.  In your answer

12     it's translated that you said:  "On the night of Thursday, they were

13     beating us ..."  I just want to make sure that's an accurate translation

14     of what you said.  Were you being beaten on the night of the 13th?

15        A.   They started beating us on Thursday between 4.00 and 5.00 in the

16     afternoon and continued until the night fell.  Shots were heard.  The

17     wounded who could help others did.  We could hear them outside the

18     warehouse laughing throughout the night.  In the morning, as it dawned, I

19     don't know what time of day it was, they called to us and said, "If

20     there's anyone alive, come out."  Some of them -- some of them came out,

21     I don't know how many.  I didn't look up to see.  I heard a truck engine

22     start.  I don't know where it went.  Silence fell in the warehouse then.

23     At some point during the day, a voice could be heard shouting, "Salko."

24     Some 15 to 20 times this individual was calling out to Salko.

25        Q.   I just want to know when you say "beating," you mean shooting or

Page 2210

 1     you mean beating without -- without weapons?

 2        A.   Shooting.  They were shooting.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4        A.   From automatic weapons, machine-guns, with hand-grenades,

 5     rifle-launch grenades.  When this person called out to Salko, we could

 6     hear his Turkish mother being sworn at and a shot fired.  Then silence

 7     fell again.  Then a voice could be heard shouting, "Adila, water, Adila,

 8     water."  Again oaths could be heard swearing his Turkish mother and shots

 9     followed.

10        Q.   Witness --

11        A.   Those who were only wounded and got out to get on the truck, they

12     were killed in front of the warehouse.

13        Q.   -- I want to focus you, if I could, just for a moment on this

14     small room.  And I'd like to show you a photograph.  It's 65 ter 1450 and

15     it's page 105.  Just a moment.

16        A.   You can show it to me.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's -- the exhibit number, I'm sorry, is P94,

18     and it will be page 105 of that.

19        Q.   I just want to show you this photograph for a moment.

20        A.   I don't recall this photograph at all.

21        Q.   All right.  What I want to ask you about - if we can just zoom

22     out a little bit, that's it - is if you can see on the left side of the

23     photograph there's an apparent entry.  And in the photograph you can see

24     what appears to be the outline of a wall.  Do you see that?

25        A.   Yes, but I can't remember the photograph.

Page 2211

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   Is it outside?

 3        Q.   This is the inside of the warehouse and what you see there on the

 4     left side is a doorway leading outside.

 5        A.   This wall -- I don't know the photograph at all.

 6        Q.   What I want to ask you is:  The outline of this wall in relation

 7     to the door, is that -- does that approximate the position of the small

 8     room that you saw while you were in the warehouse relative to the door?

 9        A.   I don't remember the photograph at all.

10        Q.   Was the room that you saw in the warehouse near the door?

11        A.   I don't recall seeing it.

12        Q.   I'm not asking about the photograph anymore.  I just want to

13     know:  Was the room that you saw inside the warehouse near the doorway?

14        A.   I mentioned this room where I thought I heard water running, but

15     I never reached the water or this reception room I thought I saw because

16     the person next to me pulled me down and said that I should stay on the

17     ground.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, it would be perhaps helpful to

19     remove this photo from the screen because there is some confusion, and

20     the witness clearly indicated that he doesn't remember and recognise this

21     photo.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's fine.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's better not to have it on the screen --

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- and then you may continue with your

Page 2212

 1     questioning.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Witness, do you remember having mentioned this small room to an

 4     OTP investigator in 1996?

 5        A.   I remember mentioning this room and saying that I thought I heard

 6     water running in that room when I was in the warehouse.  I was close by

 7     this room and I got up to reach it but was pulled back by the person who

 8     was lying next to me who said, "There's no water around here."  So I do

 9     remember clearly thinking that I heard water.  Was I so thirsty that I

10     conjured it up?  I didn't see it.

11        Q.   Do you remember telling the investigator that the room was on the

12     left side of the entrance to the warehouse?

13        A.   I had this idea that it was to the left, to my left, but I never

14     reached it.  It was night-time.

15        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.

16        A.   And in the course of the day I didn't move a finger.  I stayed

17     put where I was.  I don't know what happened.  I know that throughout the

18     night when they were shooting at us they were outside the warehouse, and

19     then in the morning, they called out to the wounded to come out, that

20     they would board a bus.  And then they shot them all, including the

21     person who called to Salko and the other one who was asking for water.

22     And then for the following 24 hours, not a soul could be heard in the

23     warehouse.

24        Q.   Okay.  Well, thank you very much, Witness.  I don't have any

25     further questions for you.

Page 2213

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That concludes my direct examination,

 2     Mr. President.  Thanks again.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4             Sir, now the accused, Mr. Tolimir, has the right to put questions

 5     to you.

 6             And now, Mr. Tolimir, start your cross-examination.

 7             But again, sir, if you need a break, just tell us.

 8             Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             Greetings to all those present in the courtroom.  Peace unto all

11     of them and unto this house and may this trial reflect God's will.

12             Greetings to the witness as well.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Let us clarify several points rather than go

15     through the entire statement.  In the second sentence of the summary,

16     Prosecutor Vanderpuye said that the witness was captured and was with

17     1.200 Muslims who were killed in Kravica.  Since I don't want to take you

18     through the entire statement and -- and you gave your statement in 2000.

19     So can you tell me what is the difference between what Mr. Vanderpuye

20     read out and what you said in your statement.  Is there a difference?  I

21     just want to know because I don't want your statement to have its value

22     detracted simply because one piece of information does not correspond.

23        A.   I don't understand at all what you've just said.

24        Q.   I'm asking you how many people were shot with you in this

25     warehouse that you didn't recognise here?

Page 2214

 1        A.   As I said, I didn't count them.  I never tried to count them.  I

 2     know that we were seated in Lolici and that those who were in front of me

 3     were saying that there were around 2.000 people there.  All of them were

 4     forced to the warehouse and none came out alive.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I've understood what you've said.  In other words,

 6     based on the assessment of those you spoke to, you drew your conclusion

 7     as to how many there were?

 8        A.   Yes.  I can't tell you whether there were a thousand more or

 9     less.  I heard their estimate that there were around 2.000 people there.

10     I don't want to go into whether this was correct or not.  I only know

11     that all of those who were with me in the column, none survived.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I'm happy with your answer.  I merely wanted to

13     clarify this at the outset.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D85.  This is the

15     statement given by the witness to the Ministry of the Interior, the State

16     Security Service of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Thank you.

17             [Microphone not activated]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I gave you a moment now to look at the statement that you gave.

21     When did you find out that you were supposed to go to the village of

22     Jaglici?  Thank you.

23        A.   Are you asking me?

24        Q.   Yes.  I'm asking you when did you find out, what was the date,

25     and if you can also tell me who it was you found it out from?

Page 2215

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.  It should not be broadcast

 2     out of the courtroom.

 3             So the accused asked you the following question:  When did you

 4     find out, what was the date, and if you can also tell him who was you

 5     found it out from.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean that we were supposed to

 7     leave Srebrenica and our home?  It was on the 11th of July that I learned

 8     this.  I was on my estate gathering hay, and my daughter came to see me

 9     and said, "What are you doing?  People are leaving.  Srebrenica has

10     fallen."  I went home.  I let the cattle out of the barn, and I met my

11     brother-in-law, whose house had been burnt in 1991, early on, and had

12     spent all this time in exile at my home.  He asked me, "Where are you

13     going?"  And I said, "I want to release the cattle."  He said that he had

14     already done so.  So I took a rucksack, collected some clothes and food,

15     as much as could fit the rucksack.  And on the 11th of July I left my

16     home.  It was in the early evening hours.  It may have been 7.00 or 8.00.

17             They told us women, children, and the elderly were supposed to go

18     to the UN camp in Potocari, whereas those who were able-bodied were

19     supposed to toward Tuzla and the assembly point would be in Jaglici.  I

20     said good-bye to my wife and the two daughters above Ravne Njive.  They

21     set out towards Potocari and I set out towards Jaglici.  I spent the

22     night there.  In the morning --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, may I interrupt you.  Excuse me.  The

24     answer -- the question of the accused was answered, I think, so that

25     Mr. Tolimir has perhaps another question for you.

Page 2216

 1             Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             Can we call up 1D87 in e-court, page 2.  Let's look at page 1

 4     first.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   This is the statement given to the ICTY.  It's your statement.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And let's turn to page 2, line 8.

 8     Thank you.

 9             [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   We will skip the first and second paragraphs and go to the eighth

13     line.

14             "A day or two before the fall of Srebrenica, I heard a rumour

15     that the enclave was about to fall.  Our commander," and I will not read

16     his name, "informed us that we would have to break the corridor to

17     proceed towards Tuzla.  The women, children, elderly, and the sick or

18     injured had to go to Potocari.

19             "My daughters and my wife went to Potocari the 11th of July."

20             Did I correctly quote your statement?  Thank you.

21        A.   Yes, but it's not true that I learnt two days earlier.  I learned

22     on the 11th of July that Srebrenica had fallen.  I was at my family farm.

23     I learned that the women, children, and the elderly should go to Potocari

24     and we should go to Tuzla.  I would have gone to Potocari too, but my

25     rucksack and my food-supply had already been shipped out on horseback of

Page 2217

 1     a friend, so I had to follow.  I would have liked to go to Potocari too.

 2        Q.   Yes, but you say you found out on the 11th, but you also say:

 3             "Our commander ... informed us that we would have to break the

 4     corridor to proceed towards Tuzla."

 5             Who is the commander, because his name is redacted, who told you

 6     you needed to open up a corridor?

 7        A.   When we got to Jaglici, I don't know how many people had gathered

 8     there already.  It was an enumerable mass and they said, "Let's go to

 9     Tuzla to break through, and then who passes, passes, and those who don't,

10     tough luck."

11             There were six -- Srebrenica was a protected area, but it had

12     better not had been because we would have fought and we would have fought

13     with tooth and nail to defend ourselves.  But instead, we had relaxed

14     because we had been living in a protected area.  Well, didn't they go

15     Srebrenica, Zepa, Zvornik, and other areas to be evacuated?  How many

16     poor people remained fatherless?  How many children don't know what they

17     fathers looked like?

18        Q.   Please, for the record, tell us, who told you to break-through

19     towards Tuzla?

20        A.   Zulfo Tursunovic told us to go into a break-through, to move

21     forward.

22        Q.   What was Zulfo Tursunovic?

23        A.   Commander, our commander.

24        Q.   You mean of some kind of brigade of yours?

25        A.   Well, of course.  It certainly wasn't me.

Page 2218

 1        Q.   Can we go back to 1D --

 2        A.   Can we have a break now?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness wants a

 4     break.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Then in that case we should have a break

 6     now and I think that should be the first break, a little bit earlier than

 7     usual, and we resume quarter to 4.00.

 8             The Court Officer will assist you during the break.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 3.17 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 3.49 p.m.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I hope very much that you are now in a

12     better condition.  I would like to remind you to tell us immediately if

13     there is another break needed for you.

14             Mr. Tolimir is continuing his questioning for you.

15             Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             May the witness be shown 1D87 in e-court, page 2, lines 21

18     through 25.  And when the witness has read it I'll ask my question.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Court Officer told the relevant persons not to

20     broadcast it.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Witness, in the third paragraph from the top you say:

25             "In Jaglici," that's line 21, "we arrived in Jaglici around

Page 2219

 1     2200 hours."

 2        A.   I don't know what time it was when we arrived.  It was night, but

 3     I can't say whether it was 8.00 p.m. or 10.00 p.m.  I know when we set

 4     out from -- to Jaglici.

 5        Q.   I'm reading your statement.  These are your words.  You gave that

 6     statement to the investigator.  You said:

 7             "We arrived at Jaglici around 2200 hours."

 8        A.   I don't remember.  I know we arrived after nightfall, but I can't

 9     tell you at what time.  I know we set out to Jaglici on the 12th.

10        Q.   I will just quote a passage and then I'll ask you a question, and

11     then you can answer whatever you like.  Now, please wait for me to give

12     you the quotation.  In line 21, I quote:

13             "We arrived at Jaglici at night around 2200 hours.  People were

14     forming a column and started to move towards the woods.

15             "The first groups were supposed to clean the mines so we had to

16     wait.  The soldiers were mixed with the civilians but the civilians were

17     concentrated in the middle of the column."

18             And my question is:  Did you say this to the investigators of the

19     OTP?

20        A.   I did give the statement, but I didn't have a watch then and I

21     don't know what time we arrived at Jaglici.  I know what time we set out

22     from Jaglici because I knew a forester whom I knew.  I ask him, "What

23     time is it?"  He said, "It's 20 to 1.00."

24        Q.   Thank you.  It's not important.  Just tell me, did you say this

25     to the investigators?

Page 2220

 1        A.   I did say this, but I didn't say the time when we arrived at

 2     Jaglici.  I said to them at what time we set out from Jaglici.

 3        Q.   Now, can you tell us something about the forming of this column

 4     you mentioned in this sentence I just quoted.  We started moving towards

 5     the woods.  The first groups were supposed to clean mines.  Soldiers were

 6     mixed with civilians.  The civilians were in the middle.

 7             Can you tell us more about how this column was formed.

 8             I said can you tell us how this column was formed?

 9        A.   I know I set out from Jaglici in a column of people.  It was not

10     all of 6 metres wide.  We went three or four abreast up to a place called

11     Buljim.  I didn't know that place.  We went downhill to a macadam road.

12     On that road the column was already moving and there was a valley ahead

13     with people standing there.  I don't know what they were waiting for.

14     When we got down to the road there was a man, perhaps he was the last man

15     from Jaglici with that group, and he was getting down to the macadam

16     road.

17        Q.   Can I ask you a question and then you can go on?  Please.  Tell

18     me, since you were a soldier --

19        A.   I was not a soldier.  I was in civilian clothes.  I had my

20     hunting rifle up to Jaglici, and at Jaglici my brother-in-law took it.

21        Q.   But you were of the right age to be a military conscript because

22     it says here you were working in a depot.

23        A.   What depot?

24        Q.   Then I'll have to quote all of these statements where you said

25     you worked in the rear, in the logistics.

Page 2221

 1        A.   I was a member, but I was in the civilian protection.  And when I

 2     moved to Tuzla, I was at Stupari in the logistics.  I chopped wood, I

 3     brought food and water until 1996.  In 1996, I was demobed.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show 1D87, page 2.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   It's the sentence below the first paragraph.  It's a simple

 8     sentence.  You said:

 9             "I joined the army on the 17th of April, 1992."

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   When were you demobilised?

12        A.   In 1996.  I said that.

13        Q.   May I note for the record that from 1992 until 1996 you were a

14     member of the army?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Can you tell us how you formed that column, how come civilians

17     and -- came and then soldiers came?  Did somebody give you orders and

18     commands?

19        A.   We were moving like cattle.  Nobody was paying attention to

20     anyone up to that place, Buljim.  And then we ran into an ambush, and

21     then people dispersed.  Nobody took -- paid any attention to anyone else.

22        Q.   All right.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness 1D85,

24     line 8, page 1 -- sorry, page 2.  In fact, that's the first page of the

25     statement.  Line 8 in 1D85.

Page 2222

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You see the first paragraph on 11 July, then the second paragraph

 3     starts with on 12 July, and then further down it says around --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused give us an exact reference.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   It says:

 7             "Until about 1200 hours the column was lining up and forming ..."

 8        A.   Yes, we would line up and then disperse and then line up again.

 9     What exactly was going on, I don't know.  They would line us up, but we

10     are not moving anywhere.  We dispersed again and then finally we set out

11     towards Buljim.

12        Q.   Before you moved to Buljim, tell us how long this lining up took

13     because you said you arrived around 2200 hours.  Did it last until

14     midnight?

15        A.   I did not say at what time we arrived at Jaglici.  I didn't have

16     a watch.  I didn't even know -- I mean, I wouldn't even have known when

17     we set out from Jaglici if I hadn't asked that forester for the time.

18     And he said 20 to 1.00, 20 to 1.00 in the afternoon.

19        Q.   And when did you arrive at Jaglici?

20        A.   It was after nightfall.  I don't know when.

21        Q.   Is it true what you said in the statement, that you arrived at

22     2200 hours?

23        A.   When did I say it was 10.00 p.m., when?  I know when -- I know

24     that we arrived at Jaglici after nightfall, but I never said to anyone at

25     what time.

Page 2223

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show 1D87, page 2.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, may I remind you not to overlap and

 3     wait for the end of the translation.  You can always see it on the

 4     screen.  It's very difficult for the recorder and the interpreters.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I asked

 6     for 1D87, page 2, in the Serbian language to be shown, line 21.  We just

 7     had it on the screen a moment ago.  And it's the same page number in

 8     English.  I will quote the sentence first.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is your statement.  It says "Witness Statement" at the top.

11             And in line 21:

12             "We arrived at Jaglici at night around 2200 hours.  People were

13     forming a column."

14             I'm not making this up.  I'm just reading your statement and that

15     statement was given to the ICTY, this Tribunal here.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have quoted this portion already

17     earlier, and the witness gave you an answer.  It's not necessary to

18     repeat it.  Please carry on.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

20     insisted, but the witness said that he never said it.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say at what time we

22     arrived at night at Jaglici.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   This is your statement.

25        A.   You can write what you like.  I know what I said.  I know what

Page 2224

 1     time I set out from Jaglici, but at what time I came, I don't know that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  This is your statement.  I didn't make anything up.

 3        A.   I didn't make anything up either, sir.

 4        Q.   Witness, how long did it take to form this column, because you

 5     don't remember when you arrived and you remember when you set out at a

 6     quarter to 1.00.

 7        A.   We arrived at 20 to 1.00.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   Stop thanking me.  You're asking me questions here.  Whatever I

10     said, I stand by it.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I'm sorry that I keep saying "thank you," but I

12     always have to say "thank you" at the end of a question.

13        A.   You don't need to.

14        Q.   Never mind.  Tell me how long did this column take to form,

15     because you know you set out at 20 to 1.00.

16        A.   I wasn't at the head of the column or at the end of the column,

17     at the tail, I was somewhere in the middle.  In that column, we went to

18     Buljim, and there was a delay when we arrived up to that point because

19     there was a crowd of people there.  I don't know what they were waiting

20     for.  We were standing on the macadam road outside Buljim, and then a man

21     came out and said, "What are we waiting for?"  And somebody answered, "We

22     lost track of the column."  The other man said, cursing everyone's mother

23     and children, saying, "Now I'll show you the track of the column."  I

24     don't know who that man was.  I asked my fellow standing next to me, "Who

25     is this?"  And the man answered, "Golic."  And that's when I saw this

Page 2225

 1     Golic for the first and last time.

 2             On the left side of the hill somebody started cursing, "What are

 3     we waiting for?"  And then shooting started.  People immediately

 4     dispersed.  Nobody's looking at anyone else, nobody's looking for mines.

 5     I ran down with my fellow down to a river.  There were people lying dead

 6     or wounded.  Nobody was looking at them, paying the least attention.

 7        Q.   Can I just ask you a question relating to what you just said.

 8     You just mentioned Golic.  Do you mean Ejub Golic, commander of the

 9     brigade?

10        A.   I never heard of any other Golic and I didn't know that man until

11     then, until that other person told me, "This is Ejub Golic."

12        Q.   Did Golic address you?  Did he say anything to you?

13        A.   No, he just addressed the person who told him that they had lost

14     track of the column, and that's all before the shooting started.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we are still waiting for the

16     translation of the answer.  Please pause before you put the next

17     question.  You are always overlapping.  It is not appropriate behaviour.

18     Please pause.  Now continue.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm trying to make a

20     pause to mark the end of my question, but the witness doesn't want me to

21     say thank you, he doesn't want to wait either, so please make the same

22     request to him and everything will be all right.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, it is not a question of the words

24     "thank you," but look at the screen.  You see on the transcript when the

25     recording stopped.  And then put the next question and not earlier.  This

Page 2226

 1     is very simple.  It is very simple.  Please do that.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, but I can't follow the

 3     transcript because all the three screens in front of me are adjusted to

 4     the documents.  Not one of them is adjusted to show the transcript.  I

 5     tried to handle it myself.  It's either the transcript or the documents.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you could press the button "LiveNote," you

 7     will have the transcript.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but I'm currently dealing with

 9     the document.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you have now the transcript in front of you?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.  No, Mr. President.  I can have

12     either the transcript or the documents.  I can't have both.  The Legal

13     Officer has just tried to help.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. -- I understand your difficulties,

16     Mr. Tolimir, but there is a way to solve this problem.  If you just pause

17     a little bit more, you will perhaps realise that we are still receiving

18     the translation and then pause a little bit and not immediately put the

19     next question.  Then I think everything will be fine.  Please carry on

20     with your question.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             Can you tell me, please, how much time do I have left, since time

23     has so far been spent in a manner that wasn't rational?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think -- I didn't count it.  You indicated two

25     and a half or three hours for the whole cross-examination.  I think that

Page 2227

 1     will be sufficient for you.  Please continue.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness, a moment ago you mentioned Zulfo Tursunovic and said

 5     that he was your commander.  Was he Naser Oric's deputy or not, can you

 6     tell the Chamber?  Thank you.

 7        A.   Well, I wasn't.  I suppose he was.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And what was Ramiz Becirovic, can you tell the

 9     Trial Chamber?

10        A.   I can't tell you what role Ramiz Becirovic had.  At any rate, he

11     was in Srebrenica.  I don't know who he was.  Was he in the staff or in

12     the command?  I don't know.  I wasn't interested.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us who lined up the column?  Was it

14     Zulfo Tursunovic?  Was it Ramiz or another person?

15        A.   I didn't see either Ramiz or Zulfo there.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, do you know at all where the HQ of

17     the BH army in Srebrenica was before you left it?

18        A.   Where the headquarters was?

19        Q.   Yes, the headquarters of the 21st Division in Srebrenica.

20        A.   Well, nowhere.  Wherever somebody happened to be, that's where it

21     was.  There were six municipalities there and nobody knew what was going

22     on.  It was a protected enclave and the people let their guard down.

23        Q.   Can you tell us where the command of the 28th Division was and

24     were you ever in the command?

25        A.   I was never there.  I didn't know exactly where the seat of the

Page 2228

 1     division was or how it was called.  I was a farmer.  I tilled the land,

 2     and when it fell upon me to take my duty I would do so.  Otherwise, I

 3     would rest.  I didn't have time to go to Srebrenica to see what was going

 4     on, and I wasn't that interested either.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Before the 11th of July, (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did it ever happen to you that you have to go to --

10     that you had to go to the front line or take up any other duty within the

11     BH army since you were a member of the army up until 1996?

12        A.   Sometimes at night I would have to stand guard, but during the

13     day, I had to stay on my farm because there weren't enough people to do

14     the work.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'm sorry to interrupt.  I

17     think -- if we could just go into private session for a moment.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2229

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

18     apologise.  I will do my best and I don't think that the Defence did

19     anything to reveal the identity of the witness.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Page 7080, line -- lines 8 and 9 from the witness's testimony in

22     Popovic et al., the witness said the following, I quote:

23             "I was occupied with hay-making on that day and my daughter came

24     to me and said that our neighbour had been killed and that an order had

25     been issued for us to leave, since Srebrenica had fallen."

Page 2230

 1             At page 7138, lines 12 through 19 of the transcript in the

 2     Popovic case, in answer to a question put by one of the Defence counsel,

 3     and I'll quote the question:

 4             "Is it fair to say that on the 11th of July, 1995, you received

 5     information via courier that Srebrenica had fallen and that women,

 6     children, and the elderly should go to Potocari and the others should

 7     take to the woods?"

 8             And you said, I'm quoting your answer:

 9             "Yes, I think that I said that."

10             Question from the Defence counsel:

11             "You received this information from your commander,

12     Zulfo Tursunovic, who told you that you should open a corridor to Tuzla?"

13             Your answer to that was:

14             "Yes."

15             Did I accurately quote the exchange between you and one of the

16     Defence counsel in the Popovic case?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you understand the question of Mr. Tolimir?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please answer the question.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood what he said.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And he wanted to know if he quoted your testimony

22     in the Popovic case correctly.  Can you answer this question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am supposed to answer?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Mr. Tolimir wanted to know from you if he

25     quoted your evidence, your testimony in the Popovic case correctly.

Page 2231

 1     Could you answer that, please.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that I said

 3     everything clearly.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us when and where did the courier let

 6     you know that you should leave your village and set out to Tuzla?

 7        A.   I think that I said that I was on my farm hay-making when my

 8     daughter came and said that people were leaving.  I think that I've

 9     repeated this countless times.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In the Popovic case you said that you received the

11     information from your commander, Zulfo Tursunovic, and that he told

12     you --

13        A.   He sent a courier.  I said that I was on my farm and my daughter

14     came and informed me that we should leave.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I understand what you're saying.  Is the following

16     correct.  Your daughter conveyed to you the order sent by Tursu through a

17     courier?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is this understanding of Mr. Tolimir correct?

19     Are you able to answer, sir, or is it very difficult?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Mr. Tolimir wanted to know if he understood

22     you correctly that your daughter conveyed the order of Mr. Tursunovic to

23     form a column was conveyed to you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through a courier.  Not that a

25     column should be formed from the village, but that we should set out

Page 2232

 1     towards Potocari and toward Jaglici.  Please don't put one and the same

 2     question to me five times.  I said quite clearly that we set out,

 3     including women, children, and the elderly, all the way through to

 4     Ravne Njive.  From Ravne Njive, women, children, and the elderly set out

 5     to Potocari, and we set out to the woods.  I think that that's the long

 6     and the short of it.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That helps Mr. Tolimir, I

 8     think.

 9             You should move to another topic, Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   You've mentioned Ravne Njive as the place where women and

13     children went their way to Potocari, including your daughter.  Can you

14     tell us who did the separating and who told you to do so?

15        A.   We received the order as soon as we set out from the village that

16     the elderly, women, and children should go to Potocari and that the rest

17     should go to Jaglici, where we would assemble.  I think that I've

18     explained it quite clearly.

19        Q.   But this was the first time you mentioned Ravne Njive?

20        A.   No, I don't know how many times I've mentioned it as the place

21     where we separated.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us something about the 28th Mountain

23     Battalion in Srebrenica commanded by Ejub Golic and where it was in the

24     column?

25        A.   I said where I saw Ejub Golic for the first and last time, and I

Page 2233

 1     said it quite clearly.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In the Popovic case at page 7133 of the transcript,

 3     lines 3 to 4, you said, and I quote:

 4             "As far as I was able to see, his group was the last to leave

 5     Jaglici, I believe."

 6             You were referring to Ejub Golic.  Did Captain Ejub Golic with

 7     the 28th Mountain Battalion form part of the column?  Was he at the front

 8     or at the rear end of the column?

 9        A.   Well, I can't tell you that because I didn't know Ejub and I said

10     so quite clearly.  When he came to Buljim with a group of people, I don't

11     think anybody else was left behind at Jaglici, and then I explained what

12     happened afterwards.  And that's the last time I'm going to talk about

13     it.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.

15        A.   Thank you, too.

16        Q.   In the Popovic case at 7109 page of the transcript, lines 19

17     through 25, and page 7110, lines 1 to 2, you said, and I quote:

18             "It was a long column.  Ejub was the next person to arrive and I

19     think that he was the next to set out from Jaglici.  As for Buljim, I

20     don't know if they stopped there.  I continued roaming [as interpreted]

21     that day.  When Ejub arrived he said, 'What are you waiting for?'  We

22     told him that we lost track of the column.  And he said, 'What are you

23     waiting for here?'  And then he cursed our mothers.  All at once shooting

24     started from the left and the right.  People dispersed without paying

25     attention to one another, without paying attention to either the wounded

Page 2234

 1     or the dead.  Everybody tried to save their necks."

 2             And I was quoting your words from the Popovic case.  This is my

 3     question:  Why did Ejub Golic curse?  Can you explain this to us?

 4        A.   Well, I suppose because we lost track of the column.  We weren't

 5     proceeding on our way.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7        A.   There is -- there was no other reason.

 8        Q.   Can we now look at transcript page 7114, lines 10 through 12.

 9     Your testimony is recorded there which needs clarifying because it may

10     have been misinterpreted.  You'll tell us that and I'll quote what you

11     said.

12             "As far as I know, we were the only ones in civilian uniform who

13     had formed the column."

14        A.   I wasn't the only one.  There was several of us in civilian

15     uniform rather than military uniform.  There were more of us in civilian

16     rather than military uniforms.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You've said that there were more of you in civilian

18     clothes rather than uniforms.  Does this mean that soldiers were also

19     dressed in civilian clothes?

20        A.   Well, those who had them put them on; those who didn't, didn't

21     put them on.  That's the short of it.  Not everyone had them on.

22        Q.   Thank you.  On the issue of ambushes, in your statements you

23     mentioned two ambushes.  At transcript page 7133, lines 9 through 11, in

24     the Popovic case, you said that:

25             "The first ambush took place close to the place called Buljim,

Page 2235

 1     where I saw Golic.  That was where the people dispersed.  The second

 2     ambush took place when we reached the river."

 3             This is my question --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the accused switch his microphone on.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you recall where the first ambush took place and do you recall

 7     what the landscape was like there?

 8        A.   Well, I told you that it was below Buljim, just outside Buljim.

 9     There was a macadam road at the foot of the hill there, and that's where

10     the first ambush took place.  The second ambush took place in the evening

11     hours above Kamenica.  We were going downstream along the river.  There

12     were a group of five or six persons.  We stopped there as shooting

13     started from one of the hills.  Fire was opened from a Praga.  We set out

14     toward the place where we heard the shooting from and shouts.  We were

15     maybe some 300 metres away from the place where shooting could be heard

16     as well as shouts.

17             We could not pass through there, so we returned.  We heard

18     bullets whizzing past our heads.  I came across a tree and hid behind it.

19     I could be hit only from the air and not from the side because I was

20     sheltered behind the tree.  I thought that the others were around me as

21     well.  I stood up and there were occasional bursts of fire to be heard,

22     and I realised that none of those who were there with me previously were

23     there any longer.  I lost my cap.  I didn't know how it happened.  I

24     started walking toward the place where the shooting could be heard.

25             I had passed some 100 to 200 metres before I shouted, "Don't

Page 2236

 1     shoot.  I'm one of yours."  I don't know who was on the other side, but

 2     they were waiting for me to come.  I -- as I came closer, I saw that

 3     there was a young man.  He said, "Old man, I see that you have something

 4     in your rucksack.  I'm hungry."  I told him that I had some bread and

 5     meat.  He had something to eat and then we left the place.  As we were

 6     walking, we realised we were treading on dead bodies, and I recognised

 7     one of those to be my neighbour.  And I asked the young man who was with

 8     me to give me a match or a lighter so that I could make some light to see

 9     if this was indeed my neighbour, but the young man left.  I no longer saw

10     him.

11             Then I heard shouts from a group down near the brook, shouting,

12     "Help."  When it dawned, we were collecting wounded down there.  We

13     realised that we were close to Kamenica, that's what they said.  And I

14     saw that they were lining up there but I went past them to their right --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, you gave a lengthy answer to the question of

16     the accused that was very helpful, but I think Mr. Tolimir has the right

17     to put another question to you.

18             Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Witness, I didn't want to interrupt you, but can you tell us how

22     many people got killed in the first ambush and how many in the second, do

23     you remember?

24        A.   I didn't count them and I wouldn't be able to find an individual

25     who would be able to count the dead.  It was night-time when the first

Page 2237

 1     ambush took place.  As for the second, there were dead and wounded, but I

 2     can't tell you how many.  Well, I could tell you there were 50 or a

 3     hundred.  I could tell you anything since I didn't count them, and I

 4     can't tell you what I didn't see.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6        A.   Thank you, too.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D86, page 3 in

 8     Serbian and English, line 22 from the top, line 22 and the following

 9     lines.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   This is a statement given to the state commission of the BH on

12     the 22nd of September, 1995.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown the

14     document.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just wait a moment.  It will come up on the

16     screen.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Microphone not activated]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Let me quote your words.

21             "The second ambush took place above Buljim."

22        A.   Above Buljim, out of the question.  Above Kamenica.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You're right.

24             "The second ambush took place above Bratunacka Kamenica.

25     Shooting started from all sides and I found shelter in a ditch, waiting

Page 2238

 1     for nightfall.  I set out along ferns and came across a young man called

 2     Fuad.  I gave him some food and proceeded to join our own people.  It

 3     seemed to me that there were 500 dead bodies" --

 4        A.   No, I didn't say that there were 500 dead bodies.  I only said

 5     that it seemed that -- like you were treading on dead bodies.

 6        Q.   Is it possible that the typist added himself the number of 500?

 7        A.   Well, he could have put 1.000 and 5.000 there.  I know that I

 8     didn't say a number because I did not count them.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can document 1D086 be shown at

11     page 3, or rather, this page and this witness statement may be added in

12     the transcript that this isn't something that the witness said, that it

13     was entered into the statement against his will.

14             Can this document be admitted into evidence?  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, everything what the witness says is

16     on the transcript.  This document will be received.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be admitted under seal.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D45, under seal,

20     Your Honour.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

23        A.   Thank you.

24        Q.   If I can quote what you just said, you said that there were a

25     great many dead but you did not count them.

Page 2239

 1        A.   I said that there were many dead bodies and that as I walked I

 2     was treading on bodies; and I didn't count them, I was not able to.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  We have your handwritten statement in e-court, that's

 4     page 9 in Serbian.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be shown?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is the number?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll give you the number.

 8             1D86, page 3, sixth line.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   And I'm quoting what you wrote in your hand.

11             "It seems to me that there were 500 dead bodies."

12        A.   I said that I didn't count them and that I didn't give a number,

13     but you can write whatever you want.

14        Q.   I didn't write it.  This is your handwriting.  Look at it.  You

15     have it in front of you on the screen.  It's line 6.

16             "It seems to me that there were 500 dead bodies."

17        A.   I don't recall saying this.

18        Q.   But is this your handwriting, Witness?

19        A.   Just like you say the second ambush was outside Buljim and it was

20     outside Kamenica.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, could you help us, please.  On the right

22     side of the screen, there you can see a document in handwriting.  Was

23     that done by you or by somebody else?  Is that your handwriting?

24             I think you should look on the right screen.  Is that your

25     handwriting?

Page 2240

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not my handwriting.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly not.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             I would like to tender this document into evidence for us to see

 7     that this witness denied it was his statement.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, he didn't deny that this is his statement.

 9     He just said it is not his handwriting.  And we have already received it

10     as D45, under seal.

11             Please carry on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise to the

13     interpreters.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, can you tell us who wrote this statement?

16        A.   This one here?

17        Q.   The one on the right-hand side of the monitor, the manuscript,

18     who wrote it if it's not you?

19        A.   I did not write it.

20        Q.   Do you remember giving a statement and somebody writing your

21     words down?

22        A.   I gave a statement that I saw dead bodies, but I didn't give a

23     figure.  How could I have possibly counted the dead in pitch dark?

24        Q.   I understand that, but you can answer my question with a yes or

25     no.

Page 2241

 1        A.   I said I did not count the bodies and I did not give a figure for

 2     the dead.

 3        Q.   I'm just asking who wrote this statement?

 4        A.   I don't know who wrote it.  I did not.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I know we've gone

 8     around on this one for quite some time now, but if we go to page 7

 9     there's a clear indication of who the statement was taken down by.  It's

10     actually translated in English as well.  If the exhibit is already in

11     evidence, I suppose it would be all right to read it and I'll tell you

12     what it says.  It says:  "Statement taken by Erna Lucic," and then

13     there's a clerk signature and then there's a statement given by the

14     witness.  And if you look at the actual exhibit written in the B/C/S,

15     it's very clear.  You can identify different handwriting on the document

16     itself.  You can see the witness's name written down on the document.

17     You can see the person who took the statement's name written down on the

18     document as well.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be even easier to have page 7 on the

20     screen.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, it would be.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is the first page and not page 7.

23     Is that correct?

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's right.  That's page 1.  Page 7 is

25     ERN ending 2281.  That's 6 -- page 6, I think, in e-court.  If we just go

Page 2242

 1     down to where the stamp is -- we're not broadcasting this, right?  Right.

 2     If we go down to the stamp and blow it up, you can see the witness's name

 3     very clearly.  And we can go to the translation.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which page?

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm very sorry.  Mr. President?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which page?

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Which page of the translation --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the English.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Ah, in the English.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have it as --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is on the screen.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  You can very clearly see the people who are

14     involved in the making and the taking of the statement, which frankly

15     corresponds to what the witness has testified to.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we have again on the screen that page

17     with -- to which Mr. Tolimir was referring about the 500 dead bodies, in

18     Serbian and in English.  I don't know which page it was.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The document is 1D086.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters could not hear the page

21     because Mr. Tolimir was speaking over the Judge.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, it's

23     page 9 in e-court, if you mean the document which is a manuscript.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  On top of this page we have

25     now on the screen in English and in B/C/S the handwritten version.

Page 2243

 1             Do you have any further questions related to this document,

 2     Mr. Tolimir?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

 4     no questions, but I would like the witness to confirm that he did not

 5     give the number 500, that it's the commission who took the statement that

 6     put in the number, which was a state commission.  They wrote the number.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who wrote it.  I

 8     didn't write that figure.  That's the most important thing.  Because I

 9     was not able to count.  Let's get that clear.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have the answer very clear on the

11     record.

12             Mr. Mindua has a question for the witness.

13             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I would just like to

14     check something regarding the authenticity of this handwritten document.

15             Could I see the last page, please.

16             Madam Usher, could I see the last page with the signature on it.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In both languages, please.

18             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, could you read the last

19     paragraph in your language, please.  Are you able to do that?  I can then

20     listen to the interpretation into French.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is written here I cannot make

22     out at all.  I can't read it.

23             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] It's a shame.  Never mind.  All

24     right.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But could you tell us if the signature on the

Page 2244

 1     right side on the bottom, if you recognise this signature.  Do you

 2     recognise this signature?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can read it.  I can read the

 4     text, but I didn't write it, if I remember well.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You see a name there, a signature.  Have you made

 6     this signature or somebody else?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember writing that.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is this signature similar to your normal

 9     signature as you use it if you sign a document?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I usually write block letters.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Even if you sign a document?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I usually sign in block letters.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I think we can leave this

14     topic here and, Mr. Tolimir, you shall continue.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Can we

16     show 1D85 to the witness in e-court to see the signature of this witness,

17     where he uses block letters not italics, and that shows that this one is

18     a forgery.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, this is my signature in

20     block letters.  Most of the time I write in block letters.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.

23        A.   That I wrote something, I didn't write anything.  I can recognise

24     this signature.  Now, what's written on top, I don't care.  I know what

25     I've seen, I know what I've survived.

Page 2245

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

 2             Are you tendering this document, Mr. Tolimir?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D46, under seal.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show document 1D085, page 3

 8     in both Serbian and English, the last paragraph but one.  It's a

 9     statement given by this witness to the State Security Service of the

10     Ministry of the Interior in Tuzla on the 27 October 2010 [as

11     interpreted].  There it is on the screen but we need the next page in

12     English, not the one on the screen now.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   We're looking at the last paragraph but one.  I'll quote the last

15     five lines, but I will not read out the place names.  Although you can

16     see the place names on the screen, I will avoid identifying you.  I

17     quote:

18             "In Jelah I found Sacir and Kasim whose last name I don't know.

19     Both of them from the village of ... Bratunac municipality and we went

20     off together towards ... and after that to ... on 29 July 1995 ... fell

21     and I returned to ... together with 14 other people where we stayed for

22     42 days.  And after that.  Ten of us went towards Kladanj and we arrived

23     there on 18 September 1995."

24        A.   I did not mention Sacir and Kasim.  I said Kasim and Sacir I

25     found in Jelah.  Not Secan but Sacir and Kasim.

Page 2246

 1        Q.   Thank you for the correction.  So it's Sacir and Kasim from

 2     Bratunac municipality.

 3             I want your answer to this question, though:  How many of you in

 4     total set out to that place in Zepa?

 5        A.   From Pobudje, only I, Sacir, and Kasim from Jelah.  We spent the

 6     night in Jelah.  Somewhere above the village, on the hill above Jelah,

 7     shooting started.  I didn't know this place Pobudje.  Ramiz took us

 8     there, and there I parted ways with Sacir and Kasim.  Sacir wanted to

 9     stay on the asphalt roads to Cerska and Baljkovica, and when we set out

10     he asks me, "Do you know the road?"  I said, "I don't know, I would need

11     to see where Rogac was to find my way."

12             However, we set out and we ran into a young man who was running

13     from the other direction.  We asked, "Is there anyone left there?"  He

14     answered, "No one.  Everyone took to the woods.  They lived on what they

15     could find in the woods, roasting snails and mushrooms."  We asked him,

16     "Are you from Jagodnja?  Do you know that forester Hasim?"  He says,

17     "No."  How many children does he have?  Three.  What's his wife's name?

18     We told him the wife's name.  And he says, "I'll join you and go with

19     you."

20             We went on.  We ran into some dead bodies on the road or along

21     the road, eight or nine bodies.  Then we went up the hill.  "Do you know

22     where Rahunici is?"  And he says, "Rahunici is up there, where the mosque

23     used to be."  So we went downhill towards Rahunici.  There was a wire

24     fence with a berry field inside and we went on to Zepa.

25        Q.   May I just stop you here.  Where did you see those nine bodies?

Page 2247

 1        A.   In Pobudje, overlooking Jelah.  I don't know what that hill

 2     overlooking Jelah was.  They were lying down.  One of them had his legs

 3     stuck on to sticks around the tree.  Somebody said there were nine

 4     bodies, but I saw eight.

 5        Q.   In this text that I just quoted, how did you find yourself with

 6     14 other persons?  Where did they come from?

 7        A.   There were no 14 people.  There were three of us, and when we

 8     walked along the fence around the berry field, we ran into one more

 9     person.  He said, "Where are you going?"  He said we were going along

10     Sutjeska towards Zepa.  He says, "There were many ambushes there.  You

11     can't get through."  I said, "I'm going to a place I know."  He says,

12     "You're crazy."  And I say, "If I'm crazy, you don't have to join me."

13     This young man went away and I never saw him again.

14             We spent the night at Rahunici and set out again in the morning.

15     Neither of us knew the road.  We emerged at a road near the hill used for

16     transporting wood.  I saw a cemetery and some bunkers, and on one aim

17     there was a name, Mehir or Menir.  We went on top of the hill.  I saw a

18     linden tree.  I said Rogac must be there, and the other man said, "If

19     you're sure, let's go."

20             We came to a valley.  There were eight heads of cattle there.  We

21     did not dare go through the valley, fearing that we might run into a

22     shepherd or something.  And just after the valley I told them, "Sit down

23     here, I'll climb atop a hill to see where we were."  I realised that we

24     were close to a place called Sebiocina and I went down to join my fellows

25     and said, "I know where we are now."  But we waited first for the dark

Page 2248

 1     and headed out towards Rogac.  We found the nearest road just near the

 2     church via Vojvodici village, through a wood, and we passed the Ljubin

 3     mill and we got to that linden tree.  I said, "Janko Brezanici's house is

 4     here.  It's dangerous, he has dangerous dogs."  We took a side road

 5     towards Kostraca --

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Just tell us, how many are you at this point?

 7        A.   Three of us.  And there we heard a voice or perhaps it was the

 8     sound of an animal, like a sheep or something.  I said, "There must be a

 9     pen or a barn here."  I said, "Let's go around," and we found ourselves

10     in a meadow, the grass has not -- had not been mown yet.  Perhaps ten

11     minutes later another two persons appeared at the spot where we were

12     standing.  I kept my silence, but Sacir said, "Do you see anything?"  I

13     said, "I do."  And he asks, "What are we going to do?"  I said, "Maybe

14     there are people."  He said, "How would they be here?"  I said, "The same

15     way we were."  And we moved towards them, but they were still not seeing

16     us.

17             The last among us slipped and fell onto the ground.  As they were

18     moving towards us, we realised they had rucksacks on their backs.  When

19     they came close, we saw one of them had an automatic rifle trained at us.

20     They asked, "Who are you and where are you from?"  Sacir said, "I'm from

21     Bratunac municipality."  And when -- and the other person said then, "If

22     you are a Muslim, then you must know a Muslim prayer, tell it to me."

23     And the other one started telling.  And then I recognised the voice and I

24     said, "Is it you Velja?"  And he said, "Were you there when the shooting

25     started?  Did you hear the shooting?"  I said, "We did."  They said,

Page 2249

 1     "They were shooting at us."

 2             Then we found ourselves in a meadow.  They had come probably to

 3     move the herd or something.  They -- Ramiz was hurt.  Apparently he was

 4     shot in the back, so from that point on we were four.

 5        Q.   Who is Ramiz?

 6        A.   Ramiz Becirovic, a younger man.  It's not the Ramiz Becirovic you

 7     seem to be asking about.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And when did you come to the point when you were 14?

 9        A.   The four of us got to Zepa, and in Zepa we arrived on the 26th.

10     On the 29th, Zepa fell.  I spent eight days in Zepa.  And a group formed

11     there, including me, to go to Tuzla.  We got to Zalisina.  Three of our

12     men stayed there.

13        Q.   These men who went with you, were they from Zepa or Srebrenica?

14        A.   There were some from Bratunac municipality, from Srebrenica

15     municipality, and Vlasenica municipality.

16        Q.   You said ten of you arrived to the territory controlled by the

17     BH army.  What happened to the last four?

18        A.   Three of us, three of that group with which we set out, they

19     remained in Zalisina.  Two of us got killed in Stedric, they stepped on

20     mines.

21        Q.   These who stayed behind, did they stay alone?

22        A.   Yes, alone, but they crossed over.  We did not have enough food.

23     We didn't have any food, so we first had to find food and then move on.

24        Q.   You mean those two saved themselves?

25        A.   They crossed over.

Page 2250

 1        Q.   Those three who got killed, how did they get killed?

 2        A.   They stepped on mines in Stedric.

 3        Q.   Do you know what their names are?

 4        A.   Abid from Piric, I don't know his last name; and from Mostahovina

 5     village it's Samir or Amir, I couldn't tell you exactly.  Salim, Salim,

 6     those two stepped on the mine.

 7        Q.   Were these villages around Zepa or Srebrenica or Bratunac?

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12        A.   Mostahovina and the other one was from Piric village.

13        Q.   So 12 of you got out.  Is that true?

14        A.   After those two got killed in Stedric.  I think eight of us moved

15     on from there and then we were in Srebrenica.  One group from Udric

16     returned and we were together with them from then on.  We hid until the

17     9th of September.  On the 9th of September towards -- we went towards

18     Tuzla and on the 18th I came to Kladanj.

19        Q.   How large was that group?

20        A.   Quite a few came from Udric, but four or five of them only joined

21     us.

22        Q.   And how many in total returned from Udric?

23        A.   I don't know.  I just know how many joined us.

24        Q.   Are they all from that column that started out from Jaglici?

25        A.   Of course.  They were not able to get through, so they came back.

Page 2251

 1        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber how many people were wandering

 2     about starving?

 3        A.   I couldn't tell you the number.  There were groups and groups in

 4     these woods that I never even ran across, people I didn't know.  They

 5     were wandering around the forests.  Some of them set out earlier, some

 6     after me.  All I know, I was in Kladanj on the 18th.

 7        Q.   Were there more of them who got through to the other side?

 8        A.   Yes, some set out later than me, like Ramiz Muskic who left with

 9     me from the same warehouse and then eventually he stepped on a mine.

10        Q.   In Baljkovica; right?

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We come back to that.

12             Mr. Vanderpuye.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could just go

14     into private session for one moment.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2252

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can you tell us where you were in Zepa.  Were you in Zepa proper,

12     and did you mingle with the army or not?

13        A.   We were at Igrisnik and Vukovin Stan [phoen] because Zepa had

14     fallen by then.  We were in the woods and hills, not in villages.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I wanted you to draw a distinction between Zepa and

16     the villages you were at.

17        A.   Well, all this was under the control of Zepa.  These are the

18     villages of Luka, Krusev Do, and we were up in the mountain.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you try to get in touch with the forces pulling

20     out of Zepa?

21        A.   No.  When Zepa fell, the villages of Luka and Krusev Do, there

22     were people from Bratunac municipality and Srebrenica municipality that

23     started going back.  There was a large group of I don't know how many

24     people heading for the Drina River, for Serbia.  A friend of mine joined

25     them.  He wanted me to come along, and I said that I would not venture

Page 2253

 1     there.

 2        Q.   Are you referring to the group from Srebrenica or the group from

 3     Zepa that left for Serbia?

 4        A.   Well, there were people from Bratunac, Vlasenica, and Zepa who

 5     were part of the group that went to Serbia.

 6        Q.   Would you say that those who went to Serbia, toward the Drina

 7     River, managed to survive?

 8        A.   Well, I know of one man who had set out for Serbia and who did

 9     not arrive there.

10        Q.   Do you know his name and why didn't he get there?

11        A.   His name was Nazif Krlic [phoen] from Krusevo, that's the

12     municipality of Srebrenica, but it was part of the Zepa enclave during

13     the war.

14        Q.   Do you know what became of him?

15        A.   I don't know.  Was he killed?  Did he die?  At any rate, he never

16     showed up.

17        Q.   What were the stories about people who went for Serbia, did they

18     survive or were they killed?

19        A.   Well, I know of this one individual who joined this group, but I

20     didn't know the rest, and I knew of him and I knew that he was the one

21     who didn't arrive there.  For the rest, I know that they did reach

22     Serbia.

23        Q.   Thank you.  My advisor told me that the name of the person you

24     were referring to was not reflected in the transcript.

25        A.   Well, I didn't even say this bit about him not arriving there.

Page 2254

 1     When the people who had reached Serbia were transferred to the

 2     United States, to Australia, and abroad, I learned that Nazif Krlic was

 3     the one who did not get there, since he was the one I knew from before

 4     the war.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us how many people from Srebrenica saved

 6     themselves by leaving Zepa for Serbia?

 7        A.   Well, I can't give you the figure.  I didn't know how many set

 8     out to begin with.  I only know who got there of those who I'm acquainted

 9     with.  I know that Nazif Krlic, one of the Srebrenica men I knew, did not

10     get there.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You wanted to say something?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to thank the witness.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can we have a break?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to thank the witness and

17     tell him that I have completed my examination of him.  I wish him a safe

18     journey home, and safe life where he resides.  Thank you and thank all

19     those who helped me to complete the examination of the witness.

20             And thank you, Mr. President, for helping us communicate.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for these nice words,

23     Mr. Tolimir.

24             Mr. Vanderpuye, we must have the second break now, but do you

25     have re-examination?

Page 2255

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President, I don't have any

 2     re-examination.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, there are no more questions for

 5     you, Witness.  The Chamber would like to thank you as well.  Thank you

 6     that you were able to come to The Hague again and assist us to find the

 7     truth.  You are now, of course, free to return to your normal life, and

 8     we wish you all the best for your future life.  Thank you very much.

 9             The Court Officer will assist you when we -- when the Chamber has

10     left the courtroom.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you again.

13             We resume quarter to 6.00, and I think the next witness is then

14     available.  Thank you very much.

15             We adjourn.

16                           --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18                           --- On resuming at 5.48 p.m.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could the next witness be brought in.  Thank you.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  I would like you to remind

22     you that the affirmation you made to tell the truth still applies.

23     Please sit down.

24             Mr. Tolimir has still some questions for you.

25             I think -- are we in direct?  I was lost.  Mr. Vanderpuye, it's

Page 2256

 1     your turn.  Please continue.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 3                           WITNESS:  PW-032 [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good afternoon to you, Witness -- good evening, I should say.

 7             When we left off last time, Friday, I was asking you about the

 8     sharing of information in the northern facility between the army, the

 9     MUP, and I think I mentioned the MUP and the 21st Division in particular.

10     And you indicated that in principle this information was shared amongst

11     you not very often, infrequently.  Could you tell us how this information

12     was shared when it was shared.

13        A.   When I assumed this duty, information was not being shared at

14     all.  I don't know what the reasons for that were and I didn't inquire.

15     In the first several months of my work there, I felt the need to exchange

16     information.  If we had information concerning political leaders which

17     had nothing to do with the army and combat activities, why not convey the

18     information to the persons who were working there.  Similarly, if we had

19     information concerning combat activities of primarily the 21st Division,

20     I didn't see why this sort of information could not be shared right there

21     and then and forwarded to the commands concerned.

22             This sort of co-operation intensified in the spring of 1995 with,

23     of course, approval from the command concerned.  Ever since that time

24     this exchange of information went smoothly.  We provided information to

25     the CSB and vice versa.  We also gave information to the 21st Division if

Page 2257

 1     we had any, and they would in turn provide us with information.

 2        Q.   And was the information exchanged electronically?  Was it

 3     exchanged in hard copy?  How was it physically done?

 4        A.   Every piece of information in its original form as noted and

 5     typed would be conveyed to the CSB.  We would merely give our heading and

 6     time and say that the information was received from the state security

 7     centre, and in this form it would be sent to the command concerned.

 8        Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you P239.  I don't think there's any

 9     concern about broadcasting it.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:

12        Q.   And what I'd like to do is I'd like to place side by side in

13     B/C/S -- you know what, I think we maybe shouldn't broadcast it because I

14     want to display also the 2nd Corps intercept, that's 2923A.  And I want

15     to see if we can put those side by side without the translation and then

16     we can look at the translation afterwards.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In my version the document cannot

19     be read at all because the copy I have on my screen is very poor.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are in the same position as you, Mr. Tolimir.

22     We are waiting that it comes up on the screen, the other document, and

23     then it should be enlarged, the relevant portion.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, the number is 2923A.  All right, I think we

25     do have it on the screen, at least what I'd like to show.

Page 2258

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, could you indicate which portion

 2     so that that can be enlarged.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If we can get it back on the screen.

 5             A technical problem.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right, if we could just focus in on the

 7     headers, I think we can start from here.

 8        Q.   On the left side you can see that this is a print-out -- I'm

 9     sorry, Mr. Gajic.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I can't

12     see a single thing.  I can't read the text at all.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have all the -- perhaps the Court

14     Officer can help to bring it up in a better way and to look at the screen

15     of Mr. Tolimir if that is different from ours.

16             Mr. Gajic.

17             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Apologies, Your Honour.  The image

18     that Mr. Tolimir can see is much poorer than what the rest of us have

19     here.  It must be the fault of the monitor or at any rate the technology

20     on his desk.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that.  We will do our best to

22     resolve this problem, but I must confess our screen is not much better.

23     It's very poor quality as well.

24             Mr. Vanderpuye, have you a convenient, clear picture?

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Well, I have the advantage of knowing exactly

Page 2259

 1     what it says, so to me it's quite clear.  But we can take it in stages

 2     and I think it will become clear as what I'm using it for, and it's not

 3     necessarily for substantive purposes so I don't think there's that much

 4     stock to be placed in it.  It's only really to demonstrate or to

 5     illustrate certain things relevant to the witness's evidence.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, were these intercepts part of

 7     this binder we got in hard copy recently?  I'm not sure about that.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think -- yes, I think the one on the right

 9     most definitely was.  That was, I think, admitted in the package relevant

10     to PW-024.  The one on the left, however, was -- is not part of it and

11     that's the reason why it's on the screen, is I wanted to show you

12     something about it.  But I think we can proceed.  If you're able to blow

13     up any part of the screen, that's fine.  If we can blow up just the top

14     part so we can see the caption on the left and on the right, that would

15     be a good start.  Okay.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:

18        Q.   On the left side, Witness, you can see that it indicates this is

19     a print-out.  It reads Army Republika of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  You can see

20     that second -- from the 2nd Corps.  Then it indicates the site and the

21     report number, 05/12795.  Do you see that?

22        A.   Well, I must say I can't see it that well, but I do see.  I can

23     manage.

24        Q.   All right.  And is that a report that would be generated by your

25     unit, the one on the left?

Page 2260

 1        A.   Well, as far as this part above the dotted line is concerned,

 2     it's the kind of report that we prepare for transmission, while the part

 3     below the dotted line is the report taken over from the CSB SDB, meaning

 4     State Security Service, of Tuzla.

 5        Q.   What I'd like to focus you on in particular in this document, if

 6     we can go down to the bottom, is you'll see the number 557.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could focus on that particular intercept

 8     and maybe we can blow it up.  All right.  And if we could go and find the

 9     match on the other side, the other document.  Okay.

10        Q.   Now, Witness, are you able to see both of these -- both of these

11     notations in these reports, the one on the left and the one on the right,

12     corresponding to report number 557?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And looking at them, can you tell if they're identical?

15        A.   From what I can see, they're absolutely identical.

16        Q.   And is this the nature or the way in which information was

17     exchanged between the MUP and your unit -- CSB, I should say, and your

18     unit?

19        A.   In this case we're looking at a report that we got from the SDB,

20     the State Security Service, and sent to the relevant command.  We can see

21     that the number of the route covered by them is 557, while this same

22     connecting route has a different reference number given by us.  I also

23     see that this was monitored on the radio relay route Zvornik-Vlasenica on

24     the frequency 785.000 megahertz.

25             Since the people who were doing this had no particular military

Page 2261

 1     experience, the route Zvornik-Vlasenica never existed as a route.  There

 2     was a connection from Zvornik to Gucevo in Serbia, or Cer, and then with

 3     a different type of communication, SMC 132 Veliki Zep and from then on to

 4     Vlasenica, the command of the Drina Corps.

 5        Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you another document.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Before I do, Mr. President, I would like to

 7     tender the document on the left, that's 65 ter 2923A.  It does not have

 8     an English translation.  The translation for P239, however, to the extent

 9     that it's identical, can serve as a translation for this document as

10     well.  But if you'd prefer, I can have a translation made for 2923A

11     separately.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think that would be appreciated because we

13     are -- want to show that the -- there is an identical text, and in that

14     case it should be translated as well.  That will be marked for

15     identification, but could you please indicate is there a handwritten

16     B/C/S original document?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  For this document I believe there is.  I'm not

18     tendering it at this point because to the extent that it's attached to a

19     witness that may be coming, I think it would be more appropriate to enter

20     it in that way.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received and marked for

22     identification, pending translation.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you tender this under seal?

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President, it should be tendered under

Page 2262

 1     seal.  And Ms. Stewart has pointed out to me if it's possible to mark

 2     this exhibit as P239A so that it's connected to the other exhibit that's

 3     on the screen, if it's possible.  I don't know whether we can do it that

 4     way, but otherwise we can just make a record of it.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I received the information that the document P239

 7     is not under seal.  In this case I think it's not necessary to receive

 8     this new exhibit under seal.  Do we agree?

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, the problem is -- I'm sorry.  The problem

10     is that with respect to this document it has certain information that is

11     protected in the record that the other document, which is identical in

12     substance to it, doesn't have.  So I think you're right, it would be

13     difficult to connect them in any event because one would be under seal

14     and the other one wouldn't be, but it's okay.  For the record then, we'll

15     just make a note of the exhibit number and I'll make a record that it's

16     specifically attached to the P239.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer].

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In this case, the Chamber would receive it as a

19     new document with a new number marked for identification under seal.  I

20     think this is the most appropriate way to be able to identify and to

21     distinguish between both of them.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 2923A will be Exhibit P268, under seal,

23     marked for identification.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

Page 2263

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             Could I have, please, 65 ter 3113 in e-court, please.

 3             I will need 65 ter 311B -- 3113B and I will need also 3113C, and

 4     just the B/C/S so that we can place them side by side.

 5        Q.   All right, Witness, I have in front of you now on the left-hand

 6     side another document.  It's headed Army of Republic of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina and it has also a report number of 06/21795.  Below

 8     the caption you can see that this is an intercept between -- it says

 9     Puk Cerovich and a general.  And you can see on the right-hand side a

10     document that is entitled "CSB SDB Tuzla," and that the caption of it,

11     we'll get a translation but it should read from the PEB

12     counter-electronic warfare of the 2nd Corps.

13             Do you see those documents in front of you now?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And if you look at the two intercepts in this case, you can see

16     that substantively they are identical.  Can you confirm that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And is this the type of information that you would, that is, your

19     unit, would furnish to the CSB or SDB?

20        A.   As far as I can see, this is the reverse case.  This report

21     received -- was received by my unit.  It was captured within the range of

22     the RRU-1 device.  It's the usual report when there was no audibility of

23     the speaker at the other end of the line.  This report was handed over to

24     the CSB and they sent it, as far as I can see, in its original form.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.  Now, I'd like to show you --

Page 2264

 1     well, first of all, I'd just like you to make a note of the location from

 2     which the 2nd Corps document -- well, make a note of the location that

 3     the 2nd Corps document indicates, okay, because I want to show you

 4     another document and that is 65 ter --

 5        A.   If you mean the site --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please turn off your microphone.

 7             Please carry on, sir.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you mean the site where it was

 9     recorded, it's the northern location, the northern site, where the State

10     Security Service had its listening unit too.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:

12        Q.   What I'd like to show you is 65 ter 311A [sic], and I'd like to

13     keep the CSB document also on the screen.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We can't do that?

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you perhaps repeat the number to clarify.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  The number is 65 ter 3113A,

18     and I would like to keep on the screen, if we can, the one on the right,

19     which I believe is 65 ter 3113B.  If we can.  If not, it's no problem, we

20     can just go to the next document also.  And it shouldn't be broadcast

21     also.  If we could just blow up the part where you can see it says

22     "1305."  All right.  That's just -- that's fine.

23        Q.   What I'm showing you, Witness, is a notebook entry of an operator

24     attached to the 21st Division.  And if you look at the substance of

25     this - we don't have translations in front of us - but if you look at the

Page 2265

 1     substance of this intercept, can you tell if it corresponds to the

 2     intercept on the right which indicates a time of 1304.  If you're not

 3     able to see it, just let me know and I can blow it up and perhaps we can

 4     even read them both into the record so that it's more clear.

 5        A.   I can see it and I think it's a report written down in a notebook

 6     among the reports collected by my unit.  It has an indication of

 7     frequency, hour, participants in the conversation, and the signature of

 8     the person who collected this information.  The report is absolutely

 9     identical to the one from SDB Tuzla.

10        Q.   And is this the kind of information that was shared between the

11     SDB, the 21st Division, and your unit?

12        A.   I've already said, since I had already had two years experience

13     in the intelligence-gathering section, it was obvious that the

14     information needed to be collated on the spot for transparency sake and

15     the relevant commander approved it.  And it was quite normal to collate

16     information.  Every piece of information collected at the level of the

17     division was always interesting to the corps, although the information

18     available to the corps was not always of interest to the division.  The

19     information that was of interest was mainly the one that concerned the

20     area of responsibility of the division, namely, the Posavina and the

21     21st.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these are completely

24     different telegrams and the contents are different.  For instance, the

25     third sentence says in the manuscript:

Page 2266

 1             "It concerns those Talic's men."

 2             And in the other transcript it says:

 3             "They will go with Talic's men."

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was my observation as well.  Thank you.

 5             That can't be absolutely identical.  If you look at the second

 6     line, after the capital letter C there is some difference to the text on

 7     the left side.  You should clarify that.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yeah, I was just about to.  Thank you,

 9     Mr. President.  What I'd like to show is 65 ter 3113D, as in David, and

10     if we could put that -- it's a notebook entry, if we could place that

11     side by side to the notebook entry that's here.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means the handwritten notebook on the left

13     side should stay on the screen --

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- and the other -- the right document should be

16     replaced by the other one.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's right.  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             If we're able to place the 1304 entry somewhere close to the

19     1305 entry so that we can compare them.  All right, that's probably close

20     enough.  What we have here are two notebook entries, as you can see, one

21     with a time of 1305, monitoring a frequency of 255.850, and another one

22     with a frequency of 1304 -- I mean, with a time of 1304, with a frequency

23     of 255 -- monitoring 255.850.  Both of these intercepts concern a

24     Puk Cerovic and a general.

25             Now, Mr. Tolimir is correct that these intercepts are not

Page 2267

 1     absolutely identical --

 2        Q.   But looking at the two intercepts, can you tell if they're

 3     related to the same subject matter or concern the same event?

 4        A.   Although it's been 15 years now, I think that these two entries

 5     are identical, that the report on the left was captured on the southern

 6     location because the name in the signature belongs to a person who was

 7     there.  And I believe the report on the right was captured by the

 8     northern location.  It's one of those typical situations when they

 9     covered the same frequency without knowing that they were doing the same

10     thing, monitoring the same frequency.

11             I also emphasised earlier that errors are quite possible in the

12     speed that we had to work with.  One letter, one sound, can be missed and

13     the computers we had were old.  And you can see that every letter that

14     normally should have a diacritic, for instance, C with a diacritic, was

15     typed as CH because that's the only thing we could do on that type of

16     computer.

17        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to tender both of

19     these documents.  I would -- I think they may have to be marked for

20     identification and I will supply the Trial Chamber with the appropriate

21     English translations -- actually, I think they both have them and I'll

22     identify them for the record.

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  So it's 65 ter 3113A is the English translation

25     of -- okay, and it has an attached English translation, I understand.

Page 2268

 1     Okay.  So 65 ter 3113A.  And I'd like to tender 65 ter 3113D, under seal.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have seen a written, a typed transcript of

 3     this handwritten version.  Do you tender that as well?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay, and it's 3113B is the print-out of the

 5     handwritten on the right.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Exactly.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I heard that we have -- they will all be received

 9     under one exhibit number with A, B, C, D, but not all of them have an

10     English translation.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  C does not have an English translation, I

12     understand, but they also do have different times on them and I don't

13     know whether or not they should be tendered all together or they

14     should -- all right.  I understand it's probably better to do it all

15     together, so that's what we'll do.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  A, B, and D will be received as one exhibit under

17     A, B, and D, but C as well received, marked for identification.  And all

18     under seal?

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I understand there's one that doesn't need to be

20     under seal and that's B.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  A, C, and D under seal.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 3113A will be Exhibit P269A, under seal.

24     65 ter 3113B will be Exhibit P269 [sic], 65 ter 3113C will be

25     Exhibit P269 [sic], under seal and marked for identification.

Page 2269

 1     65 ter 3113D will be Exhibit P269D, under seal.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             Please carry on.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Now, Witness, you have mentioned in terms of the organisation and

 6     personnel of the northern and southern facilities that there was -- that

 7     there were platoons that were assigned there, platoon commanders, squad

 8     commanders, and so on.  Did the platoon commanders supervise -- or squad

 9     commanders, I should say, supervise the operators that were there on a

10     day-to-day basis?

11        A.   Squad commanders not only supervised but actively worked on the

12     job for the simple reason that these platoons and squads were never

13     manned to full strength.  Some of the personnel had to be dispatched to

14     the front line, and only a minimum number was assigned to such units.

15        Q.   And did the platoon commanders also participate in the

16     interception process and supervise the operators?

17        A.   Yes, absolutely.  The commander was both the soldier, the

18     commander, controller, and everything else.  He actively participated in

19     all these activities 24 hours a day.

20        Q.   And were the squad commanders and platoon commanders, were they

21     responsible for the quality of the work that was done at the interception

22     sites?

23        A.   As I said, people worked like slaves, as it were, in order that

24     they be kept there rather than sent to the areas of combat.  That's why

25     for the duration of their stay at these sites while they were on duty,

Page 2270

 1     they did the best to do the job as well as possible.

 2        Q.   Did there ever arise an occasion where an operator had to be

 3     disciplined for poor conduct or for poor-quality work?

 4        A.   Well, cautions were always present in our work.  As far as I

 5     remember, a year before more than 50 per cent of the personnel who were

 6     manning the unit were reassigned and sent to the front lines.  I'm

 7     referring to 1994.

 8        Q.   And was that a form of discipline or was that a matter of

 9     necessity?

10        A.   Well, it was more a matter of necessity, I'd say.

11        Q.   In terms of the equipment that was made available to the

12     operators in order to do their work, you mentioned that there were

13     notebooks that were provided to them, there were tape recorders that were

14     provided to them.  Can you tell us what other kinds of equipment was

15     available or made available to the operators?

16        A.   Every operator tried to make their contribution by bringing in

17     their notebooks.  As far as logistics is concerned, the only thing that

18     the command of the 2nd Corps provided in sufficient quantity was food.

19     The rest was down to our resourcefulness.  We would be given a number of

20     notebooks, but that was never enough.  So we had to resort to our own

21     devices, find all the notepads or notebooks that were used on one side of

22     a sheet.  I know that a truck-load of such paper was brought to us.

23     Other stationery that was supposed to be destroyed was not, there were

24     delays, and we would be provided with that, as well as with cigarette

25     paper.

Page 2271

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  May I have 65 ter 01357 in e-court, please, to

 2     show the witness.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise what's on the screen in front of you, Witness?

 4        A.   What I can see here is a radio amateur equipment --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and that's the set to the left.

 7     Whereas the device to the right is ICER-100.  I'm not sure, though, it's

 8     been a long time.  These devices were brought to us from radio clubs.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:

10        Q.   And the device to the right, can you tell us what that does, if

11     you know.  What is its function?

12        A.   The one on the right can play a dual role.  It may be difficult

13     to explain to the Chamber.  One of the options is that it can receive

14     short waves, and the second, to analyse signals from RRU-800 radio

15     lengths.

16        Q.   And the device on the right, it says "Kenwood" on there, if you

17     can see that, what does that do?

18        A.   For the most part, these devices were used to expand the range

19     and to receive signals emitted from RRU-800.

20        Q.   And in their original form were they able to do that or did they

21     need to be modified by the operators or other people working in the unit?

22        A.   To explain this I need to say a few technical things.  This

23     device was possible to receive one -- to capture one channel or one

24     frequency, and that's one of the ways in which the signal from RRU-800

25     could be received.  In order to improve the quality of the signal, an

Page 2272

 1     attachment, that's to say an amplifier, was added to this device in order

 2     to make the signal audible.  There was another device that was also the

 3     product of our mechanics, which is the converter - it was a makeshift

 4     device - and its role was as follows.  Since these were not military

 5     devices and were not produced for professional use, whichever signal you

 6     wanted to capture it didn't have a fixed frequency.  And the converter

 7     had the role of placing, fixing, the signal at 16 or 18 megahertz which

 8     is where -- the fixed frequencies that we had.  I don't know if I can

 9     explain this.  The device was not calibrated to receive military

10     frequencies.  It was not fixed onto military frequencies.

11        Q.   And did it have to be modified in order to do that?

12        A.   Absolutely.  The first task that we had was to expand the range.

13     Since these sets were mostly intended for ultra -- rather, for short-wave

14     ranges.  Even though some may gainsay what I said just now, it is true

15     that these devices could be used to bridge this difficulty.  There were

16     four ways of doing it.  The first one was to use this device - and we did

17     this, as you will see in the reports - to cover one frequency and one

18     channel.  One transmitting and one receiving frequency.  If you have two

19     speakers, what is the receiving signal to one side will be the

20     transmitting signal to the other side.  So this was a way of monitoring

21     both the receiving and the transmitting end at different channels, but it

22     was difficult to fit these conversations together.  We didn't have the

23     technical options for that.

24             The second way that was also used frequently was to follow one

25     frequency, be it the transmitting or the receiving one, and because of

Page 2273

 1     two anomalies or imperfections of the device itself, we would follow both

 2     speakers.  These anomalies consist of the following.  The first one:

 3     Because of the feedback, you see we have the telephone and, of course,

 4     the role of the microphone and the role of the receiver is similar.  So

 5     the speaker speaking into the phone on the other end, his voice would be

 6     transmitted through the receiver and that's how we would hear what the

 7     other speaker at the other end was saying.  That was one of the technical

 8     possibilities we used.

 9             The other anomaly is the following.  Because it was impossible to

10     have differential sets in the devices at the terminal stations and

11     because we had to pass from four-wire systems to two-wire systems - and

12     this was a specific system used by the army - we got the maximum out of

13     what we had.  The same applies to RRU-800 and to RRU-1.

14             A moment ago we were able to see the frequency from the RRU-1

15     range, where this return signal was quite audible.  We had another

16     speaker speaking -- or rather, we had two speakers, speaker one and

17     speaker two, speaking on one frequency.  This is a classic example of a

18     telephone situation, where the telephone doesn't work properly, and for

19     that very reason we were able to hear the other speaker.  Although,

20     normally the voice of the other speaker should be carried either

21     10 megahertz higher or 10 megahertz lower than the frequency on which the

22     speaker at this end was speaking.

23        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.  I just want to ask you a little

24     bit about the antenna systems that you had available at the respective

25     northern and southern sites.  Just generally and really in very -- the

Page 2274

 1     most plain and basic terms, can you tell us what types of antennas you

 2     had at your disposal?

 3        A.   To put it simply, 90 per cent of antennae were handmade,

 4     makeshift antennae, done out of traffic signs, water pipelines, copper

 5     wires with built-in amplifiers.  I recall that we had one military

 6     parabolic antenna as well.  We used old television antennas, which proved

 7     to work quite well on certain frequencies.  In other words, we didn't

 8     have specifically the antennae we needed.  That's to say, we had this --

 9     we had several of the military parabolic antenna and the rest were

10     makeshift antenna.

11        Q.   All right.  I'd just like to show you 65 ter 1632.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Before I do, Ms. Stewart has reminded me, I'd

13     like to offer into evidence 65 ter 1357.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P270.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:

18        Q.   Could you just briefly tell us -- first of all, are these the

19     kinds of antennas that you've described?

20        A.   Yes, they are.  But in 1995, the mast that we can see here did

21     not exist.  The antennae were placed on roof-tops.  To the left we can

22     see a parabolic antenna, which was the military antenna I was referring

23     to; the one in the middle is a helicoidal antenna; and the other two are

24     Yagi antennae.  We also see a stick antenna, which is the rod in the

25     middle.

Page 2275

 1        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to offer these -- I'm

 3     sorry, this photo into evidence.  I have two others which also depict the

 4     same or similar antennas.  They are 1633 and 1634, respectively.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And do you want to have them as one exhibit, the

 6     three photos?  No, as separate exhibits.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  They can go in together, I think.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm told it's better for clear identification to

 9     have them separate.  They will all three be received.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's fine.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 1632 will be Exhibit P271.  65 ter 1633

12     will be Exhibit P272.  65 ter 1634 will be Exhibit P272 -- 73.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:

14        Q.   Witness, are you able to recognise the location where these

15     antennas are?

16        A.   If you're referring to this photograph, it's at the northern

17     site.

18        Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you 65 ter 1635.  Now, this appears

19     to be another parabolic antenna.  Can you identify for us where -- the

20     location of this site?

21        A.   Based on what I can see, I think the antenna was located at the

22     southern site, on the roof of the southern site.

23        Q.   All right.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to move this into evidence as well.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

Page 2276

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  65 ter 1635.  There is also 65 ter 1636, 1637,

 2     and 1638.  I'd like to show the witness the last one, though.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They all four will be received.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 1635 will be Exhibit P274.  65 ter 1636

 5     will be Exhibit P275.  65 ter 1637 will be Exhibit P276.  65 ter 1638

 6     will be Exhibit P277.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 8        Q.   I just wanted to show you this particular antenna and I wonder if

 9     you could tell us a little bit about it.

10        A.   This is a makeshift helicoidal antenna.  Such antennae that we

11     made could not pick up all of the range used by RRU-800.  So we had to

12     make several antennae which would cover 650 to 700 frequencies, or 750 to

13     800, or 850 to 900.  What does it mean that it resonates at a certain

14     frequency?  It means that it works best in terms of resonance activity

15     and capture.  You can see that this was a makeshift antenna.  The pipe

16     that you see is the sewage pipe.  The antenna has a pre-amplifier and

17     twists of copper wire.

18        Q.   Thank you for that.  Now, you were asked a few questions, I

19     think, concerning how it was that VRS communications were able to be

20     intercepted given the fact that they knew or should have known they were

21     being listened to.  I would like to show you 65 ter 2978 in relation to

22     that evidence that you gave.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I understand it's 2978A.

24        Q.   All right.  I think we can all see it now.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Maybe we can blow up the translation a little

Page 2277

 1     bit so that everybody can see that more clearly.

 2        Q.   This is an intercept that was taken by an operator in the

 3     2nd Corps, and it concerns a conversation between Panorama 3 and a

 4     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic.  And in that conversation you can see, as it

 5     reads -- it starts off with C, who says:

 6             "And who wants to know?"

 7             Panorama 3 responds:  "Panorama 3."

 8             C says:  "Panorama B?"

 9             P says:  "Panorama 3."

10             And C says:  "Aha, you need Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic, right?"

11             And you can see the response where P calls him a stupid idiot.

12     And then if you look further down you can see that this happens again.  I

13     think in the B/C/S you'll find that on the second page, and in the

14     English you'll find that just underneath where it says:

15             "All right, you're talking fast, man ..."

16             And if you read further down you see where it says:

17             "Slow down, slow down, don't talk too much.  You should know

18     better and tell that idiot next time not to mention any names, ranks, or

19     last names."

20             And then if you look further down, you can see where P says:

21             "You're worse than the one who put me through to you.  He says

22     the rank, the name, the last name ... the only thing missing was the date

23     of birth, the current location and what his intentions are.  You read him

24     the riot act and teach him not to ask who's calling when a person gives

25     his code name.  The name is Panorama.  You don't ask any additional

Page 2278

 1     questions."

 2             And this, as you can see in this intercept, is this the kind of

 3     thing that you would see when you reviewed the intercepts in terms of how

 4     VRS officers, VRS personnel acted in relation to securing their radio

 5     communications?

 6        A.   Well, I can mention some of the features of these report.  There

 7     are some characteristics in the way this conversation took place.

 8     Initially they would ask for the call signal, they would ask to be

 9     switched to someone else, and that's what I meant when I was referring to

10     them transferring from a four-wire communication to a two-wire

11     communication.  We have a channel where both speakers participate.  So

12     technically speaking, we can hear both interlocutors.

13             Now, as for the context of this conversation and failure to meet

14     the rules of confidentiality, all the units and armies had code-names.

15     If the code-name is Panorama, then the commander would be Panorama 1.

16     The commanding officers had tables of codes for identification.  They

17     would say, "Can I speak to Panorama 325."  Normally these codes would

18     change every ten days or so.

19             A third feature from this report is the failure to abide by these

20     rules, having a big mouth, talking -- saying too much.  As we can see in

21     this case it was the operator, but sometimes it so happened that the

22     commanders would do that.  It is beyond doubt that the VRS had protected

23     channels, ones that we could not intercept.  These communication lines

24     went from the VRS Main Staff to Belgrade and to subordinate corps.  We

25     could not intercept the communications taking place along SMC-130.

Page 2279

 1     That's true as well.  And of course what we saw before was the extent of

 2     what we could intercept.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that, Witness.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I see that it's time.  I'd like

 5     to tender this into evidence.  I have --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P278.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asked if that have to be under seal.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, it don't have to be under seal.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

13             Mr. Vanderpuye, could you indicate how long your

14     examination-in-chief will last tomorrow?

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  I have a signal here that I have

16     used up three hours and 20 minutes.  I think I can wrap it up in about

17     the remaining time, which is another 40 minutes.  The reason is I have

18     two areas, two significant areas I'd like to cover with the witness.  One

19     has to do with chain of custody, which hopefully will go quickly; and

20     another one has to do with explaining a war-time map and the way the

21     radio communications were intercepted.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

23             I think especially for the accused for preparing the

24     cross-examination this information is important.

25             Witness, I have to remind you again not to contact the parties

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 1     about the content of your examination.  I apologise you have to come

 2     again to the courtroom and for the continuation of your examination

 3     tomorrow at 9.00.  And we will adjourn now and resume tomorrow morning at

 4     9.00.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of

 7                           June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.