Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2359

 1                           Wednesday, 2 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             To enable the protected witness to enter the courtroom, the

 7     blinds should be brought down and the witness may then be brought in.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please sit down.  Good morning, sir.  You wait a

11     moment so that the blinds could be --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, good morning, sir.  The affirmation you

14     made at the beginning of your evidence to tell the truth still applies

15     and the protective measures are still in place.

16             Mr. Tolimir, you may continue with your cross-examination.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             May God be of assistance to all and may there be peace unto this

19     house.  And may God's will be done in these proceedings and the outcome

20     as God wishes and not as I do.

21                           WITNESS:  PW-032 [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

24        Q.   [Interpretation] We stopped off yesterday when we were showing

25     document 1D129, it is an exhibit, and the witness said that he wasn't

Page 2360

 1     aware of the document and that he never talked to these women that

 2     Naser Oric referred to.

 3             My question is as follows:  Was the Srebrenica zone demilitarised

 4     or not?  In view of your yesterday's statement where you said that a

 5     forward command post was set up in the area around the protected zone -

 6     thank you - in the area around the enclave.

 7        A.   What I knew at the time is what I said, and that's what was the

 8     fact.

 9        Q.   Was the zone demilitarised or not?

10        A.   Based on the information that we received, it should have been.

11        Q.   Were you aware of the position UNPROFOR took in relation to the

12     demilitarised zone and was it tolerant in its conduct toward the

13     demilitarised zone?

14        A.   I really can't answer the question.  I wasn't near there.  I was

15     not in touch with either other UNPROFOR or the zone itself.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me, did you know that a group of

17     commanders from Zepa and Srebrenica, headed by Naser Oric, in April of

18     1995, arrived in the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps of the

19     BH army, and that that toured the defence lines in Kladanj, the brigades

20     in Teocak, Sapna, Medjedja, Seonica, and Kakanj?  Thank you.

21        A.   I'm not aware of this at all.  What I can tell you is that I

22     heard perhaps in 1996 that some of the commanders had gone out of there

23     earlier on.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us if you know that the -- whether this

25     group of commanders and senior officers which came out of Srebrenica and

Page 2361

 1     Zepa, whether they were received by Alija Izetbegovic in Kakanj.  Thank

 2     you.

 3        A.   I'm really not aware of this.  I was a commander of a unit

 4     attached to the staff.  I was not an acquaintance of these commanders, I

 5     was not in touch with them.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber, if you know, that

 7     this group of commanders in April of 1995, that's to say, before

 8     Srebrenica and Zepa, were in your area of responsibility with

 9     General Delic, with the chief of the Main Staff of the BH army?

10        A.   I'm not aware of this at all.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, please, was this group received by your

12     commander, Sead Delic?

13        A.   I don't know about that.  At that time I went rarely to Tuzla.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that this group of senior officers from

15     Srebrenica and Zepa in the month of April met up with the command of your

16     corps in Tuzla; is this something that you learned from your commander

17     and other senior officers and your -- or your subordinates who happened

18     to be in the command at the time?  Thank you.

19        A.   Believe me, you keep asking these questions but I'm not familiar

20     with this group at all.  I don't know these people and I've only heard of

21     Naser Oric.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, this group of commanders were they

23     part of preparations for the joining up of the enclaves with the

24     commander of the Main Staff, the commanders of -- the commander of the

25     corps, and commanders of the brigades that they toured in Sapna and

Page 2362

 1     Medjedja?

 2        A.   I can only keep repeating what I've already said.  I really have

 3     no idea, to be frank, as to when these people came, where, who they met

 4     with, and I don't know any of them.  I've never met with them personally.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, what was your level in the corps

 6     command at the time and were you involved in these preparations and

 7     meetings; and if you were not, why not?  Thank you.

 8        A.   I've already said that I was a commander of a unit attached to

 9     the staff.  I would send reports to the commander on the situation in the

10     unit every week or every fortnight, and as for all the other goings-on,

11     the commander had his assistants charged with various specialities and he

12     would be better placed to answer the question.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D31, page 1,

15     lines 19, 20, 21, and 22.  Or rather, my apologies, before this appears

16     on the screen -- [Microphone not activated].

17             THE INTERPRETER:  We can't hear the accused.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now call up D1, page 5,

19     lines 22 and 23, and then lines 32 and lines 46, and that will make

20     things easier for the witness.  It will make my question more

21     understandable.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you sure you're asking for

23     document D1?  Is that on the screen now?  Thank you.  Carry on, please.

24             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 2363

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we turn to page 5,

 2     please.  Yes.  The witness should be able to see it.  It's the

 3     fourth paragraph, line 2.  I'll read the two lines.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   "In late April 1995 we took off by helicopter from Zepa and

 6     arrived in Zenica.  It was a delegation that was dispatched from

 7     Srebrenica headed by Commander Naser Oric."

 8             And rather than read the whole statement, let's go to item 32 and

 9     see -- or rather, line 32 - can you mark that for the witness? - to see

10     what happened when they arrived in Zenica.  And it is stated here:

11             "From Zenica, all the members of the delegation were transferred

12     to Kakanj.  And the invalids who had come along with us were transferred

13     to the other side.  We were received by the Chief of Staff,

14     General Hadzihasanovic in Kakanj and discussions took place around the

15     events in Srebrenica.  That was the reason why we got there.  We were

16     supposed to go on from there to Tuzla.

17             In the meantime, the commander of the General Staff, Delic,

18     arrived, who arranged a helicopter for us to transfer us to Visca, from

19     where we were transported to the corps command where Delic said the

20     commander received us.  Subsequently we had meetings with Governor

21     Izet Hadzic.  On the following day we toured the defence lines in

22     Kladanj, above the tunnel, and the following day we visited the command

23     of the Teocak brigade, Sapna, Medjedja, Snjeznica.  And the following day

24     we went to Kakanj.  President Izetbegovic got there and we talked to

25     him."

Page 2364

 1             That's where I'll end my quotation.  This is a statement by an

 2     eye-witness who was present at the meeting.

 3             Do you still deny that these activities had indeed taken place in

 4     the area of responsibility of your corps in Tuzla prior to the fall of

 5     Srebrenica and Zepa?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I don't think that we have the right

 7     document on the screen or even not the right page of the document.  We

 8     can't find this portion you were quoting.  Can you help us?  Of course

 9     I'm referring to the English page.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I will

11     now do my best -- or rather, my legal advisor will try and indicate for

12     you the references in the English version.  Since I don't speak English,

13     I'm merely reading from page 5 of the statement, which we received from

14     the Prosecution.

15             Thank you.  Mr. President, it's page 6 in English.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And which paragraph and line?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 3.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 3, up until the line

20     starting with Izetbegovic.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Tolimir, it could be helpful if you would repeat the question

23     for the witness.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 2365

 1        Q.   Witness, can you tell us if you knew anything of these activities

 2     and whether this eye-witness speaks truthfully about the activities which

 3     happened in the area of responsibility of your corps and have -- and had

 4     to do with Srebrenica and Zepa?  Thank you.

 5        A.   First of all, let me say that I have never seen this report

 6     before.  Secondly, I don't know the person who gave the statement.  My

 7     answer can only be:  I don't know, perhaps yes, perhaps not.  I was not

 8     involved in these activities and I had no information at the time.

 9     Fourthly, I can say that of the entire list of people mentioned here, I

10     know only two persons.  I knew them from before the war, and yet I had

11     contact with these people during the war only rarely, very rarely.

12        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Based on the activities described by this

13     eye-witness, can you conclude that this was a delegation of commanders

14     from Srebrenica and Zepa who came to the corps command to attend

15     preparations for an operation aimed at joining up the enclaves of

16     Srebrenica, Zepa with the area of responsibility of the corps, and this

17     took place in April of 1995 before the fall of Srebrenica and Zepa?

18     Thank you.

19        A.   All I can say really is maybe yes and maybe not, but I had

20     nothing to do with these activities.

21        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  [Microphone not activated].

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D31 on our

24     screens now, page 1, lines 19, 20, 21, and 22.  Thank you.

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 2366

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2.  In English that will be

 2     page 2 and in B/C/S that's on page 1.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This is a report from the intelligence administration, part of

 5     which you were, to the president, Mr. Izetbegovic, a report that was sent

 6     to him.  And we see in lines 19, 20, 21, and 22 -- could you please

 7     indicate the lines to assist the witness.  This is in the fourth

 8     paragraph and it says:

 9             "In preparations for a future operation to link up the enclaves,

10     we brought in and took back four brigade commanders, two brigade chiefs

11     of staff and the Chief of Staff of the 28th Division.  The division

12     commander who was meant to go on the next helicopter flight did not

13     return."

14             My question, Witness, is:  Is this a document from your

15     intelligence administration, because you told us yesterday that you were

16     part of that administration, and was this document sent to

17     President Izetbegovic and does it refer to activities that I've just read

18     out?  Thank you.

19        A.   I appreciate your question, but you have to understand that this

20     is the first time that I see this document and how could I know what it

21     says here about some events and communication written by the brigade

22     general or Brigadier-General Talijan.  I had nothing to do with this.  My

23     combat was a non-combat unit.  Our task was just to gather intelligence

24     and forward it.  We never were informed of anything that is contained in

25     this information, nor was such information sent to us.  You should ask

Page 2367

 1     commanders or chiefs of units, but not us.  Because I really have nothing

 2     to do with this.  I've never heard or seen this document in my entire

 3     life.  Perhaps the chief of department would be the right person to ask.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I didn't ask you whether you have ever seen

 5     or heard of this document.  My question, like the ones -- the previous

 6     ones, was whether you knew anything about these activities which were

 7     being discussed by the commanders in Zepa and Srebrenica before the fall

 8     of Srebrenica because they were part of your command.  And I was just

 9     asking you whether you knew about their activities.  I wasn't asking you

10     about this very document, nor was it my intention to tender it through

11     you.  Thank you.

12        A.   Well, I will answer for the last time this type of question.  I

13     really don't know anything about these activities.

14        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see 1D31,

16     page 1 -- oh, that's the document we already have.  All right.  Could we

17     then see, please, 1D32.  1D32.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, that's Exhibit D16.

19             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can you see this document on the monitor, Witness?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now I will read the first sentence of this document to you.

25             "According to intelligence information," and I repeat, "according

Page 2368

 1     to intelligence information, the aggressor is grouping forces and

 2     equipment around the demilitarised zones of Srebrenica and Zepa,

 3     particularly in the sector of Milici and Vlasenica."

 4             This was drafted on the 17th of February, 1995.  Did you

 5     participate in the gathering of this intelligence information?  Thank

 6     you.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10        Q.   Witness, could you please tell me where you worked and what you

11     did up until the 17th of February, 1995, what unit were you in and what

12     military structure did you belong to?  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could go into

15     private session for just a moment.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was my intention as well.

17             Private, please.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2369











11  Pages 2369-2373 redacted. Private session.















Page 2374

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Carry on, please, Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

 9     thought we were in open session.  I don't have anything to hide.  I don't

10     know why we were in private session.  Let me ask the witness this:

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   You say that you know nothing of the order.  Had you ever

13     received the order, and it lists among the addressees, the 2nd Corps

14     command, the command of OG Srebrenica, and the command of the Zepa

15     Brigade, and you being part of the corps must have fallen under these

16     categories?

17        A.   I don't know if such an order ever arrived and if it did, I

18     didn't see it.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now call up 1D -- or rather

21     D1, page 8.  In Serbian, line 21.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And which page in English?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think it's page 9 in English, but

24     I don't know.  I don't speak English.  I think it's page 9.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps your legal advisor can help you.

Page 2375

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  It is

 2     page 9 in English, line 21.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back to page 1 in

 5     Serbian, or rather, page 8.  Page 8 in Serbian and page 10 in English.  I

 6     can't read it for the witness.  Can we go one page back in Serbian,

 7     please.  Once again, can we have page 9 in Serbian, and that's two pages

 8     ahead of the one we have now.  This is page 24 in e-court.  Can we go on

 9     to page 26.  Thank you.  I will now quote.

10             "Pursuant to a decision issued by the commander of the

11     285th Brigade" --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, excuse me, but could you please

13     indicate where you are reading.  It is a page full of sentences.  If the

14     witness should follow what you are quoting, you should indicate which

15     line it is and if we have the right page in English, otherwise it's not

16     feasible.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm

18     reading from line 21, which reads -- I don't know if -- if you can see

19     it, but it says:

20             "On the decision of the commander of the 285th Brigade" --

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can you see that, Witness?

23        A.   No, I can't find it.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you please indicate with the

25     cursor line 21, which starts with the words:  "Commander, 285th

Page 2376

 1     Brigade ..."

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Yes, and if we look at the line above, at the end of that line

 5     you will see the start of the sentence which goes as follows:

 6             "On the order of the commander of the 285th Brigade, nine groups

 7     were formed which performed these tasks.  These groups engaged in combat

 8     and destroyed around 60 Chetniks, and a group went into the village of

 9     Visnjica and set alight several homes.  On the return from the area of

10     Zepa of the sabotage platoons in the area of Srebrenica and further

11     afield, activities aimed at raising the combat-readiness were taken."

12             My question is as follows:  This order given by the commander to

13     the Srebrenica units to engage in sabotage activities in the rear of the

14     VRS units and around Serbian villages, did it result in the death of some

15     60 individuals and did it have to do with the intelligence you may have

16     gathered about the activities of the VRS in and around enclaves?  Thank

17     you.

18        A.   Let me repeat what I've already said.  This is the first time I

19     see this document.  It looks like an interesting read, reads like a

20     novel, but I've never seen this document before, I've never heard of

21     these events before, and I think that asking me to give an opinion on

22     this is pointless.

23        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  If activities are carried out around the

24     enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa, is it not logical for the forces in Zepa

25     and Srebrenica to engage -- is it logical for them, that is, to engage in

Page 2377

 1     sabotage activities outside of their enclaves rather than attempt and

 2     protect the area within?

 3        A.   I really don't get your question.  I don't see what it is that I

 4     have to say.  I wasn't specialised in this sort of operational activity,

 5     I wasn't a commander, I don't see what it has to do with me.

 6        Q.   Well, Witness, it has to do with your activities.  You furnished

 7     your commander with intensifying activities of VRS in and around the

 8     enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa.  As a result, the commander issued an

 9     order whereby combat-readiness was to be raised and sabotage

10     activities were to be undertaken, which in fact resulted in the death of

11     60 individuals in and around demilitarised zones.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is your question, Mr. Tolimir?

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   My question is:  Were these activities and the loss of life the

15     result of the intelligence they furnished to -- their commander with as a

16     result of which he issued this order?  Thank you.

17        A.   I must admit that your statement is true insofar it states that

18     we handed over the intelligence we had to the assistant commander for

19     intelligence, and he in turn gave them to the commander.  Now, all the

20     rest, which orders followed and which activities followed, I don't know.

21        Q.   I know, Witness, that you did not take part in these activities,

22     but you did take part in gathering intelligence about the activities of

23     VRS.  And was it necessary to report on intensified activities of the VRS

24     in February when there were none and was this done, in fact, just to

25     engage in sabotage activities in the VRS-controlled areas?

Page 2378

 1        A.   I can never give a yes or no answer to questions that are this

 2     complex.  The answer may be yes and the answer may be no.  I don't know.

 3        Q.   Witness, on the first day of the examination-in-chief, in answer

 4     to Judge Mindua's question, you said that you knew nothing of the

 5     air-lift.  Do you recall that, yes or no?

 6        A.   I think I do.

 7        Q.   Was your answer that you didn't know anything about the air-lift?

 8        A.   I said that I had no idea, and I do still say that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see a document yesterday which had to do with

10     the air-lift, and it was not admitted into evidence, where the commander

11     of Zepa and Srebrenica said that even vagabonds were aware of the plan to

12     link up Zepa and Srebrenica with the AOR of the corps and that he wanted

13     to change the axis from Srebrenica to Zepa?  Were you the only one then

14     who were not informed, unlike all the other ones in the enclave who knew

15     that such a plan was in the making?  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I object to the

18     question.  It's argumentative, first of all; and secondly, it misstates

19     what the document actually said.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In your line of questions, Mr. Tolimir, there's a

21     problem.  There are many, many statements instead of questions.

22     Sometimes you ask a question at the end if that is right what you are

23     stating, but you should really ask questions to the witness.  It is much

24     more helpful for your defence.  Could you please rephrase your last

25     question to enable the witness to answer.

Page 2379

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  My

 2     question for the witness is as follows:  Did he give in answer to my

 3     questions today the same answers that he gave to Judge Mindua's question

 4     when he asked him about whether he knew about the air-lifts or not?

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This question was already answered, that he stood

 7     by that.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can we call up Prosecution 65 ter document 3.  This is the

10     agreement on demilitarisation.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, that's Exhibit D21.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we turn to the next page,

13     please.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Please look at Article 1, where it is stated:

16             "Demilitarised area will include the territory -- so the

17     demilitarised area will include the area within the current lines of

18     conflict.  The precise boundaries will be marked by the UNPROFOR

19     commander on the ground after consultations."

20             This is my question:  Witness, was the area within the lines of

21     conflict in Srebrenica demilitarised, based on the intelligence you

22     gathered?  Thank you.

23        A.   This is something that I've seen now for the first time and I

24     can't tell you whether Srebrenica was demilitarised or not.  If I have to

25     give an answer, then it will be:  I don't know.

Page 2380

 1        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  My question was as follows:  Did you have

 2     this knowledge from the intercepts that your unit made?

 3        A.   I think that the question put a moment ago had to do with 1993,

 4     and now we've skipped to 1995.  I would kindly ask you, as a senior

 5     officer, to stick to one period.  It's been 17 years and it's very

 6     difficult for me to remember all these things.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Please tell us, based on the

 8     intelligence you gathered, both in 1993 and in 1995, was Srebrenica a

 9     demilitarised zone or not?  Thank you.

10        A.   According to this agreement, it should have been, but our main

11     task was to collect intelligence information about the enemy, and the

12     enemy, in order for them to carry out normal activities and to keep their

13     units there, the enemy would say no.  I wasn't in Srebrenica, so I can't

14     answer your question.  I know that the Army of Republika Srpska was well

15     armed and that they held positions around Srebrenica.  Now, as to what

16     the people inside the town had, I don't know about that.

17        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Tell me, please, did you intercept

18     communications of your army at all, and did you in the intercepted

19     conversations of the officers of the VRS hear anything about the status

20     of the army, about combat groups, sabotages, infiltration of weapons in

21     Srebrenica in the enclave itself?  Did you hear anything about it at all?

22     Thank you.

23        A.   While I was in that unit, we never intercepted conversations of

24     the BH army for the simple reason that the BH army did not have radio

25     relay communications.  It was mostly wire, fixed communications, and

Page 2381

 1     package radio.  Right now I would probably be best placed to answer your

 2     questions if I took reports from 1995 and if I read them.  So if I were

 3     to read some reports from the period of time that you're referring to,

 4     perhaps I could give some answer to your question; as it is, I cannot.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In order to avoid you reading documents now, would

 6     you please tell us whether Srebrenica and Zepa were demilitarised, and

 7     can a zone in which there's more than 6.000 armed soldiers be ever

 8     considered to be a demilitarised zone?

 9        A.   I really cannot answer that question.  If the zone was indeed

10     demilitarised, as is stipulated in the agreement, then there shouldn't be

11     any armed soldiers there and there shouldn't be any soldiers around the

12     demilitarised zone.  But since I never visited Srebrenica, it's pointless

13     for me to continue answering this.

14        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  Would you please tell us what forces,

15     then, could have carried out this sabotage operation and killed 60 people

16     if these forces were not armed?  Could this have been done by civilians?

17     Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think the witness

20     has gone over this a couple of different ways and I think the witness has

21     already answered the question in about 50 different ways.  What the

22     question now put to the witness calls for is just rank speculation, since

23     the witness has said he doesn't know anything specifically about these

24     events or the units that were involved in it, or how it was ordered or

25     planned or carried out, if at all.  So I object to the question on that

Page 2382

 1     basis, and I think it might be more appropriate to move to a different

 2     area of examination.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think that was a good advice by

 4     Mr. Vanderpuye.  Really, your last question was pure speculation.

 5     Everybody could answer that in that way.  He wants to do that but it is

 6     not helpful to find out the truth what happened at that time really.

 7     Please carry on and perhaps move to another topic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Could we now see 1D151 -- I apologise.  Could we now see 1D151,

10     page 5, lines 6 and 7.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I'm told that this document is not

12     in e-court.

13                           [Defence counsel confer]

14             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

15             [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since the document is

16     not in e-court and I wanted to show it to the witness, can I nevertheless

17     put the question to him.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And my question is:  Do you know that General Delic, as the army

20     commander, informed the public, the general public, that there was a plan

21     to connect Zepa and Srebrenica with Tuzla and that that plan was in the

22     hands of the commanders of Zepa and Srebrenica and the commander of your

23     corps?  Thank you.

24        A.   I'm not aware of that.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that General Delic after the fall of Zepa

Page 2383

 1     and Srebrenica spoke at a session of the Assembly of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina, saying that there was a plan to link-up the enclaves of Zepa

 3     and Srebrenica with the 2nd Corps and that the commanders of Zepa and

 4     Srebrenica had the plan in their hands.  Are you aware of this, given

 5     that this speech of his at the Assembly was carried in the media and

 6     there were numerous comments and a lot of discontent was caused by the

 7     statement of his?  Thank you.

 8        A.   I personally didn't hear this statement of his.  Now, whether I

 9     know of how dissatisfied and bitter the people were, because a lot of

10     them had come into the area where we lived, then yes, I am aware of that.

11     I saw it with my own eyes and it had nothing to do with the army.  These

12     people were embittered and it was normal because there were mothers who

13     came with children and there were wounded, elderly people there, and then

14     several thousand people were gone, were missing.

15        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Did the intelligence service come up with an

16     intelligence game where they were showing to the command staff that Zepa

17     and Srebrenica were endangered while at the same time they were covering

18     Zepa and Srebrenica with an air-lift by using this intelligence

19     information as a pretext?  We saw that in one of the documents that was

20     on the screen, where they were saying that they used the intelligence

21     information as a cover-up?  Thank you.

22        A.   I don't know about such games.  But from a human point of view,

23     if so many people are put in such a confined area, then nothing good will

24     come out of it.

25        Q.   Mr. Witness, was it to be expected that these people from Zepa

Page 2384

 1     and Srebrenica tended to link up with Tuzla and conduct such offensive

 2     operations that they, in fact, did eventually conduct?  Thank you.

 3        A.   This was war time.  Since both you and I studied the

 4     Geneva Conventions and its provisions, the normal thing would have been

 5     to release these people and there would have been nothing for you and me

 6     to discuss today.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I'm satisfied with your answers.  We will now turn to

 8     another group of questions which pertain to your testimony in-chief where

 9     you spoke about intercepting communications.  And on page 2187, line 28

10     [as interpreted], and 2188, line 4 of the transcript of this case, you

11     said as follows, I'm quoting:

12             "If intercepted conversations were recorded and the tape

13     contained four hours of intercepts or more, than these tapes would be

14     taken to the corps command where the EDA would play them, re-record the

15     important intercepts, erase everything else, and send the tape back."

16             Do you remember saying this to the Prosecutor?

17        A.   I think I do remember.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, while the tapes were carried to be

19     re-recorded, how long did it take to re-record them and do what you

20     describe here?

21        A.   I would like to thank you because this is a topic that I'm

22     familiar with and I can actually give you some answers.  Whenever the

23     shifts finished their work, they would take the full tapes containing

24     recordings and in exchange they would give empty tapes.  And that would

25     be taken to the command of the 2nd Corps.  The shifts lasted ten days.

Page 2385

 1     They rotated every ten days.  They would listen to these recordings,

 2     re-evaluate them, and I'm telling you this based on what I know.  I never

 3     participated in this, but I know what they were saying, that they would

 4     re-listen, re-record important conversations, and then erase.  Sometimes

 5     it would happen that they would forget to erase what wasn't needed and

 6     then we would have to do that.  So these shifts stayed at the command of

 7     the 2nd Corps for ten days.  The rotations were ten days long and this,

 8     what I said, pertained to the tapes both from the south location and the

 9     north location.  And these teams would stay at the corps command for

10     ten days.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any situations where you had nothing to

12     record intercepts with because you had no tapes and you didn't have them

13     because the tapes would stay at the corps command for ten days?

14        A.   I will be open enough and tell you that, yes, we had such

15     instances too.  And then we would use our own judgement to erase some

16     intercepts to have sufficient space on tape to record new ones.  The

17     proper way to do it would be to keep everything on tapes, and as I have

18     said yesterday, we used the experience of the JNA, where tapes would be

19     taken to the analysis department, they would keep what they needed, erase

20     everything else.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any situations where intercepted

22     conversations would be just jotted down on paper and not recorded because

23     you had no space on tapes?

24        A.   As far as I know, we had no such instances for the simple reason

25     that one can remember a maximum of two sentences perhaps and not more

Page 2386

 1     than that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  When did you receive notebooks for your unit for the

 3     first time?  You spoke here on page 4521851, lines 19 to 28, you say:

 4             "We did not have enough food, let alone notebooks.  They did not

 5     appear until 1995."

 6             Did you receive, then, notebooks in 1995; and if so, in which

 7     month?  Thank you.

 8        A.   I've already stated this.  Except for our own resourcefulness and

 9     our own efforts to find notebooks wherever we could, we started receiving

10     notebooks from the logistics department of the corps command.  We wrote

11     reports on various forms.  The main problem up until period of time was

12     that we did not have an obligation to save these notebooks.

13             In order to keep better records, I and the people who worked with

14     me decided that every document, incoming and outgoing, had to be recorded

15     regardless on the type of the form and the size of the notebooks, whether

16     it was A4 or A5.  We also had loose sheets of paper that we used.  So the

17     improvement that we introduced was that we would record the exact time,

18     the exact frequency, and we would also record the existence of the

19     document.  And this is something that had been done prior to this, except

20     that there was no duty to keep, to save, documents and records.  Up until

21     that time, the only document that was important was the typed-up

22     document.  Once a document was typed up and was assigned a number that

23     was put in the heading, then only that document was to be kept and

24     preserved.  That was the only duty we had.

25        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Could you tell us, was it standard practice

Page 2387

 1     in the JNA that all the intercepts had to be destroyed as well as the

 2     notebooks if anything was written down on them because at that time they

 3     were not recognised as evidence in court?  Thank you.

 4        A.   I believe that based on my experience I shouldn't even try to

 5     answer that question.  This had to do with state relations, and you very

 6     well know how such relations are regulated.

 7             And, Your Honour, I believe that this is no place or time to

 8     answer a question like this.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  You don't have to answer me, but answer the

10     Trial Chamber.  Do you know whether in the former Yugoslavia a tape, a

11     reel-to-reel tape, could ever be used as an exhibit in trial proceedings

12     before a court?  Thank you.

13        A.   How could we judge another state and use materials in our own

14     state that under the then-international agreements and conventions were

15     not allowed?

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, I doubt if your position is correct.

17     You were asked by the accused:

18             "Could you tell us, was it standard practice in the JNA that all

19     the intercepts had to be destroyed as well as notebooks if anything was

20     written down on them because at that time they were not recognised as

21     evidence in court?"

22             If you focus on the first part of this question, was that

23     standard practice?  That has nothing to do with the relations between

24     states.  You should answer that question.  Was it standard practice in

25     the JNA that all the intercepts had to be destroyed as well as the

Page 2388

 1     notebooks?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there were clear

 3     tasks for people at my level and clear instructions as to what types of

 4     documents could be kept and which not.  Some had to be kept permanently,

 5     some, such as personnel files, were kept for a certain number of years.

 6     But again, I would like to reiterate, this was peace time.  There was no

 7     war going on, so there was no need for this type of work.  And that is

 8     why I said that maybe this is not the place or the time for me to talk

 9     about these things.

10             Maybe I misspoke, but in my own experience I never had occasion

11     to have something that I wrote down or a tape be -- is used in a court of

12     law.  I know very well that in democratic countries, such as the

13     United States, for instance, without a court order you could not seize

14     anything or use it.  However, during war time, the situation is

15     completely different.  We -- I mean, to have a court order so as to be

16     able to defend oneself and intercept, that's a completely different

17     situation to the situation as it was before the war.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps there was a misunderstanding.  That was

19     not the question.  The question was if it happened that if it was the

20     normal practice to destroy notebooks and tapes at the relevant time we're

21     talking about.  Could you focus on that, please.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said it was standard

23     practice for certain documents to be kept for a certain period of time.

24     How long that period would be and what type of documents, I really don't

25     know, but I know that some documents had to be kept for two years, three,

Page 2389

 1     five, ten years, and some of them were to be kept forever.  But I was not

 2     a person who had any responsibilities in that, so I really didn't know.

 3     I just produced the documents.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

 6     wasn't -- it wasn't my intention to discuss political issues with the

 7     witness.  But let me ask the witness this:

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].

 9        Q.   Was Mustafa Hajrulahovic, was he a person who would know or order

10     you --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter would request the accused to

12     repeat his question.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat your question.  The

14     interpreters didn't catch it.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Witness, tell us, please, did General Mustafa Hajrulahovic, was

18     he informed about your practice of destroying notebooks and of the fact

19     that you had a shortage of the necessary equipment and materials for

20     taping intercepts?  Thank you.

21        A.   I don't know if the gentleman, who is now late, was informed or

22     not, but I know that when I arrived at the unit it was not standard

23     practice to keep those log-books.  For a simple reason that you cannot

24     ask someone to keep something unless they actually issued that to you.

25     So all these different notebooks and log-books we brought with us when we

Page 2390

 1     came there because there was no standard issue.  I know that in peace

 2     time it's done differently.  You would go to the quartermasters and get

 3     whatever you need, but at this time we had nothing.  So the only thing

 4     that we had to keep were the documents that had a stamp on them with the

 5     number and date.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, is that a convenient time to have

 7     the first break?

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Okay.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We must have the first break now on technical

11     reasons and resume at 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question for the witness and

15     then, Mr. Tolimir, you may continue.

16             Judge Nyambe.

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes.  At page 28, lines 12 to 17, of the

18     transcript you stated, among other things, that there was no duty to

19     keep, to save documents and records.  Do you recall that?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE NYAMBE:  That being the case, what was the criteria that

22     was used to determine what to keep and what not to keep?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said, when I arrived

24     at the unit which had operated in the way it had because these were not

25     professional soldiers, they had no equipment, no documents --

Page 2391

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's no interpretation in the B/C/S, I think,

 2     especially there's no direct connection to the Defence.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can hear you,

 4     but I was not receiving any interpretation.  But it's just now that we do

 5     have the interpretation.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We try to carry on.

 7             Please carry on with your answer.  I have interrupted you because

 8     of the technical problems.  Perhaps it is solved in the meantime.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the Bosnian army --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's still -- wait a moment.

11             It should be okay now.

12             Excuse me, please repeat again.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One, two, three.  One, two, three.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now please again repeat the -- your answer.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that the BH army

16     was composed of non-professionals, or rather, people, normal, regular

17     people.  So when I arrived there, there was a need to bring some order to

18     all that.  In my statement I said that these notebooks as well as some

19     others that were not marked were preserved by chance.  That's how fate

20     would have it.

21             As for when I arrived in the unit, I felt the need to bring some

22     order in there because it was already the third year of the war.  We

23     needed to get the maximum out of our people, and you will certainly know

24     that we had no idea what would happen in July - and I'm referring to the

25     period February -- January, February 1995.  So that as for the keeping of

Page 2392

 1     the documents, there arose the need to keep them for a certain period of

 2     time.

 3             And I can say that all the printed documents that had a heading

 4     and stamp on it were handed over to the depots.  And when the Tribunal

 5     arrived, we did not really know what it was they were looking for and

 6     what it was they needed.  And then as we worked together and in

 7     conversations, we learned or it was learned that these notebooks were

 8     still in existence.  They wanted to see them, and when they did they said

 9     that was exactly what they needed.  And that was how those notebooks

10     found their way here.  And I'm not saying -- or rather, what I'm saying

11     is there are many notebooks from the previous, earlier, period but many

12     of them had been burnt.  And when I arrived there, I insisted on reports

13     being made and these reports would have a heading and a stamp and a

14     number assigned to them.

15             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Earlier, Witness, we left off with a question about the

20     procurement of these notebooks that Judge Nyambe was referring to.  I

21     asked you how it was possible - and that's what I would like to ask you

22     now -- so how was it possible that you exchanged all kinds of different

23     materials for notebooks and that you did not receive notebooks, and that

24     your chief, your immediate superior and his superior, did not know that

25     you did not have -- that there was a shortage of these materials that you

Page 2393

 1     needed?  Thank you.

 2        A.   I truly don't know if my superior up the chain of command in

 3     Sarajevo knew of the shortage of material.  We had to have tapes because

 4     they were the key to our work.  Without magnetic tapes, we would not be

 5     able to have recordings of intelligence.  We wouldn't have been able to

 6     preserve the substance of these intercepts.

 7             I recall very well that in the summer we went through a period of

 8     crisis because of the shortages.  We particularly had a shortage of food,

 9     and for a period of 15 days we would rely on the mushrooms that were

10     growing nearby and we had them for our meals.  They are very nutritious.

11     And in this way we were able to set aside some resources to buy

12     notebooks.  You will know, of course, that whatever could be spared was

13     sent to the front lines.  Notebooks were the last thing that senior

14     officers and commanders would be concerned about.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             Did you know that -- don't you find it odd that you, being such

17     an important structure, had to get by on mushrooms and had to rely on

18     your own resourcefulness to obtain notebooks, whilst your government in

19     Sarajevo was spending millions?  Don't you find that a bit odd, in view

20     of the importance of your unit?  Thank you.

21        A.   I really don't know how many millions the government in Sarajevo

22     had or how much it spent.  What I do know is that we were toward the

23     lower end of the scale when it came to our importance, regardless of the

24     role that we played.  Apparently other things were considered to be

25     important.

Page 2394

 1        Q.   Do you know if audio recordings of intercepts which were adduced

 2     as evidence in this case had been preserved as well?  Thank you.

 3        A.   I think that we discussed this yesterday when we talked about the

 4     various reports and records.  My opinion is - which I cannot confirm with

 5     100 per cent certainty - is that some of these audio recordings can be

 6     found in the central archives in Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us why there isn't a single notebook to

 8     be found here which does not have the labels on them that the Prosecution

 9     showed here?  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would prefer to have first the question if the

11     witness is able to answer the -- to hear the answer to the question if

12     the witness is able to give the answer, and then you might raise

13     something.

14             Witness, could you answer the question?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there should be such

16     notebooks.  We saw yesterday in the documents that we had notebooks of

17     A5 size and A4 size, some of them with multi-colour covers.  And I know

18     that such notebooks were handed over to the Prosecution.  Now, why they

19     haven't found their way here is something I don't know.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The last part of the

22     witness's answer is the reason why I was objecting to the question, is

23     that he wouldn't know what's in evidence and not in evidence before the

24     Court.  But I think it's clear on the record what the disposition of

25     those notebooks are.  Thanks.

Page 2395

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I think the Chamber's of the view that this

 2     witness is able to deal with the different kinds of questions.

 3             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I put my

 5     question because in the course of the examination-in-chief --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on with your questioning.  It's not

 7     necessary to explain anything.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- what was shown and --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please just carry on with your questioning.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we call up 1D128, page 47, paragraph 3.  1D128.  Can we have

12     a look at paragraph 3 on the right-hand side, and I will read it for the

13     witness.  It's in English.

14             Again, it's the book that we showed the witness yesterday.  I'm

15     quoting the words of the author of the book.

16             "The many intercepts that were later published and disclosed at

17     the trial of General Krstic give the impression that the VRS troop

18     movements were efficiently followed by the Muslims in real time.  There

19     were dozens of intercepts which showed that the ABiH interception

20     stations at the" northern and southern locations "closely followed the

21     VRS conversations about the column heading for Tuzla.  However, at

22     Krstic's trial no attention was paid to whether this intelligence was

23     shared with UNPROFOR.  This would, after all, have been a logical step,

24     given that the Bosnian Muslims dearly wanted to get UNPROFOR or NATO on

25     their side in the fight against the VRS."

Page 2396

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I have read out a portion of the analysis on Srebrenica and Zepa

 3     conducted by the Dutch institute.  This is my question:  You were

 4     involved in the hand-over of documentation to the Prosecution, as we were

 5     able to see yesterday.  Were you ever in the course of the war involved

 6     in the hand-over of intercepts to UNPROFOR or NATO or was anyone from

 7     your service involved in it?

 8        A.   Never, either during the war or after the war did I hand over

 9     anything to UNPROFOR or NATO.  Now, did anyone from the command do this

10     and on what basis is something I can't tell.  I don't know.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Would it be logical to divert the attention of NATO,

12     having been sought to strike upon the VRS forces, since as you indicated

13     yesterday, as we were able to see yesterday, the intelligence in the

14     gathering of which you were involved happened -- was gathered in real

15     time?  Thank you.

16        A.   I will state again, because it's the case and that was the

17     situation, the intelligence was gathered in real time.  We were the

18     producers of intelligence.  Now, the path from there on to the corps

19     command, who was involved in this process, is something I really don't

20     know.

21        Q.   Thank you.  On the first day we were able to see only a list of

22     documents or notebooks handed over to the Prosecution.  This is my

23     question:  Does there exist a list of documents containing the intercepts

24     that you delivered to your superiors in the course of the war?

25        A.   I will repeat what I said.  The process of recording outgoing

Page 2397

 1     telegrams takes place in such a way that there would be a log-book of

 2     incoming and outgoing telegrams where it would be noted.  Now, the

 3     communications centre which received telegrams would also have a log-book

 4     of incoming and outgoing telegrams because what I was referring to was

 5     the intelligence network.  I don't know what happened of these log-books,

 6     but I believe that all of them were handed over to Sarajevo in 1996.

 7        Q.   Witness, I think you understand why I put this question.  If you

 8     have a list of documents that you handed over to the Prosecution, do you,

 9     by the same token, have a list of documents as they were sent to the end

10     users in the corps and in the army?  Would you have such a log-book with

11     such entries kept in the central archives in Sarajevo?  Thank you.

12        A.   I understood your question fully.  What I'm saying is related to

13     the time-period of which I have knowledge.  We had a log-book of outgoing

14     telegrams, a log-book of incoming telegrams, and you would have the

15     code-name of a given telegram, the exact time, and every midnight all the

16     stations would compare the number of telegrams sent out and received and

17     match them.  Now, what happened with those log-books, I'm not claiming

18     that all of them were handed over to Sarajevo.  What has become of them,

19     where are they today, do they still exist or not, I don't know.

20        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Can you tell us the following:  When was the

21     first time that the intelligence contained in the intercepts you

22     commented on in this trial and in the Krstic trial was made available to

23     your government or to your army in general?

24        A.   Now, I'm not sure whether it was first the representatives of the

25     ICTY or the NIOD that came first, and whatever we did, we did on the

Page 2398

 1     orders of the command concerned.  They took statements, and then

 2     afterwards, ICTY representatives came up.  They were asking for

 3     information concerning the name you mentioned in your question.  In those

 4     early days, the information sought directly concerned the gentleman named

 5     above.  At first individual reports were provided, and at a later stage

 6     everything that could be found in the archive of the 2nd Corps or the

 7     intelligence department of the 2nd Corps at that point in time was taken.

 8             As for the rest, I can't talk about it.  Was this something that

 9     I was specifically told?  I don't know.  I didn't hear anything.

10        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Is my understanding of what you said

11     correct?  For the first -- the first time that these intercepts became a

12     matter of interest was when the representatives of the Dutch institute

13     showed up, the NIOD, and representatives of the ICTY, and that was in the

14     matter of General Krstic?

15        A.   Let's clarify this.  NIOD representatives were not specifically

16     interested in either the general - and I'm referring to General

17     Krstic - or in intercepts.  If I remember correctly, they wanted to get a

18     view of the situation from the participants in the war.  My superior

19     wanted me to say something from the perspective of the interception of

20     certain communications.  And as for the others, I don't know.  I know of

21     my superior.  I think there was the corps commander as well.  I am not

22     familiar with these other names mentioned here.  NIOD representatives

23     left after talking to me.  I don't know if they said anything to my

24     superior.  They didn't tell me anything other than asked me to give them

25     precise answers to their questions.  They were never specifically asking

Page 2399

 1     for information concerning General Krstic.  They never even mentioned

 2     him.  As far as I know, the first time that ICTY representatives -- it

 3     was only when the ICTY representatives came that they were interested in

 4     General Krstic.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And a moment ago you said that your boss approved

 6     your conversation with representatives of the NIOD and the ICTY.  Could

 7     you tell us what year this was, was this your boss during the war time or

 8     your boss later on when this was happening?  Thank you.

 9        A.   What I can tell you is this:  We gave a statement.  I may be

10     mistaken in the date or the year, but I believe it was 1998.  But please

11     don't take my word for it.  My boss was the one who handed over the

12     documents.  And as for 1995, who my boss was then, I can't really recall

13     because they changed all the time, almost every six months or every year

14     there would be a new person.

15        Q.   So we have now established that these were your bosses from 1998,

16     so we cannot confuse that with 1995.  So this was in 1998.  Have I

17     understood you correctly, that boss?  Thank you.

18        A.   I'm glad, sir, that you got it, but in 1998, or rather, in 1997

19     and 1998 there were two different departments within the corps, security

20     and intelligence.  And there were assistant commanders for security and

21     the other one was also an assistant commander and an assistant commander

22     for intelligence.  In 1998 I returned to the corps command, and these two

23     departments were now combined into one G2 according to NATO standards and

24     a certain number of individuals then were to be in that one department.

25     And one of them who signed the notes, he became the boss of G2, the head

Page 2400

 1     of G2.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Could you tell us, please, whether up until 1998

 3     any after your superiors, either at the intelligence department or within

 4     the command chain, did anyone ask any information from you regarding the

 5     contents of the intercepts?

 6        A.   Are you referring to any specific time-frame or are you talking

 7     about the ongoing developments?

 8        Q.   Well, I was really referring to the period from since the war

 9     ended up until 1998.  Did anyone ask you to provide information about the

10     contents of those intercepts?

11        A.   No, I wasn't asked by anyone for such information, but let me

12     clarify this.  The intercepts or the surveillance continued.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I know that.  I was just asking about the documents

14     that we are discussing now.  Witness, tell us, please, did any of your

15     superiors ever at the army level have contacts with foreign

16     representatives, either UNPROFOR or NATO or a NATO member country?  Did

17     any of your superiors ever forward to them intelligence data that your

18     service collected during the war?

19        A.   I really wouldn't know whether anyone sent information, but as

20     far as I recall, within the corps command there was a department that

21     liaised with UNPROFOR.  That's all I knew.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Was this liaison department with UNPROFOR, did they

23     have access to your information and did anyone else have access to

24     your -- to the information or intelligence that you had?  Because you

25     said it was handed -- up until when it was handed over to Sarajevo?

Page 2401

 1        A.   I don't know if anyone had access.  I'm just saying that all the

 2     material from -- all these materials were archived in early 1996 and our

 3     work continued.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  At the time when he was the chief of the security

 5     department, could you tell me -- and I'm referring to Hajrulahovic and

 6     after him, in other words, during the period of his successor, was any of

 7     your intelligence data used by any of the international factors, the

 8     UNPROFOR, NATO, or any NATO member states and so on, any of those who

 9     were in charge of monitoring the situation in the former Yugoslavia?

10     Thank you.

11        A.   I really don't know what information was used in the

12     negotiations, but as for the general you mentioned, I only know that he

13     passed away.  I never had any personal contacts with him.  All I know is

14     that he held this post during the -- in the early years of the war.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to read out the next sentence in

16     this paragraph, the words of Rupert Smith, and I mean Rupert Smith who is

17     the commander of UNPROFOR during the events that we are discussing here

18     and which are the subject matter of these proceedings.  He says the

19     following:

20             "Smith's door was always open to the head of the Bosnian

21     intelligence service, General Mustafa Hajrulahovic but he never dropped

22     by.  On the other hand, the ABiH army had excellent intelligence contacts

23     with the Americans."

24             That's in the last paragraph.  You can see and recognise the

25     words.  You can recognise the name, Smith, and -- thank you.

Page 2402

 1             Does this mean that representatives of the UN who are supposed to

 2     report to the Security Council about -- on the situation in the field

 3     never forwarded to your service any information that you're aware of?

 4        A.   I really had no dealings and nothing to do with the things that

 5     are described here in this book, and I believe that you are just

 6     confusing the levels.  I was never at this level.  I didn't know any of

 7     these people.  I wasn't even in Sarajevo during the war.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  As an intelligence officer, do you know whether your

 9     superiors from the intelligence department shared their intelligence with

10     the American intelligence services?  Do you know anything about that?

11     Thank you.

12        A.   No one ever told me nor did I know anything about what they

13     shared and with whom.  If that did happen, this would have had to be done

14     at a higher level.  At my level, these things did not happen.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D128, please, page 18.

17     This is the e-court number.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is on the screen.

19             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone, please.

22                           [Defence counsel confer]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "Dissemination of intercepted

24     signals is always accompanied by great secrecy.  The exchange of comment

25     in particular is very limited.  Only a small circle of the highest

Page 2403

 1     political and military policy makers are given access to this.  This

 2     secrecy is also important when it comes to sharing intelligence between

 3     the United States and its allies.  The British foreign secretary,

 4     Malcolm Rifkind is reported to have resisted the release of intercepts

 5     made by the GC headquarters which the NSA wanted to hand over to the

 6     Yugoslavia Tribunal in support of the prosecution of Slobodan Milosevic.

 7     At the end of 1996, the Clinton administration was prepared to release

 8     intercepts for this purpose, but once again the British government

 9     blocked the process."

10             [Microphone not activated].

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   From this quotation we can see what we already know, that such

14     communications are held as very -- or confidential, in the highest

15     secrecy.  Now, can you tell me who else had access other than you and the

16     people who actually processed them?  Could you tell us who other than you

17     had access to them?  Thank you.

18        A.   I can only tell you that access to raw intelligence was allowed

19     to people who actually analysed them, the command, the superior command,

20     and then they sent it to their superior command in Sarajevo.  Now, who

21     the people were who had access to them, I don't know.

22   (redacted)

23     you ever prohibited in 1994 and 1995 from meeting certain individuals or

24     to travel abroad?  Did anyone ever impose such restrictions on you?

25     Thank you.

Page 2404

 1        A.   As I've already said, during the war I didn't travel anywhere --

 2     abroad nor any of my men, that's one.  Two, there were restrictions and

 3     there was a ban even after the war on these activities.  We could not do

 4     this without the approval of the competent command.  And as for these

 5     other things, I really don't know what to answer.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would just ask for

 9     a redaction in the transcript at page 45, line 6.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be done.  Thank you.

11             Please carry on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, when was it first that you heard -- what year did you

15     hear for the first time that documents have to be handed over to the

16     ICTY, the OTP, the Office of the Prosecutor, and when was -- when did

17     your superiors ask of you to do this for the first time?

18        A.   As far as I can recall, this happened for the first time in the

19     spring of 1998.  That's approximately the same time, the time of the

20     first reports.  In other words, it could have been a few weeks or days

21     earlier or later, but in any case in spring of 1998.

22        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Tell us, please, at your level and in your

23     department, did you know that other services, too, were engaged in

24     collecting intelligence and they -- and that they, too, could document

25     the same events that you did?  Thank you.

Page 2405

 1        A.   I don't know which other services you are specifically referring

 2     to, but in -- when the -- when in 1998 the security and intelligence

 3     departments were merged, of course there was intelligence from the

 4     security department.  For instance, the reports or notes that I discussed

 5     yesterday where I said that I hadn't seen them before.  So these were the

 6     types of documents, and also I know about these other two individuals who

 7     worked with us together at the location, at the facilities, where we

 8     monitored the work.  As for the others, I don't know anything about them.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So for the most part, all those materials, including

10     the intercepts that are under discussion here, had to go through your

11     hands, through the department and your men, they all had to be registered

12     in your department, yes or no, please?

13        A.   I know that these were materials that we had handed over.  As for

14     whether there were other documents collected from elsewhere, you should

15     ask those different departments or individuals.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, this is what you know or knew about your army.

17     And now I would like to ask you about other armies.  Do you know that

18     other armies too could intercept and tape conversations and information

19     in the areas referred to here in these intercepts used as evidence before

20     this Trial Chamber?

21        A.   Believe me, I don't know.  I know that there were some

22     departments in the Army of Republika Srpska and the Yugoslav Army.  As

23     for the others, I really don't know anything about them.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Republika Srpska army, was it capable and was

25     it able to intercept and monitor conversations in the same manner that

Page 2406

 1     you were?  Thank you.

 2        A.   To be honest, I think that they did have the capabilities, but

 3     I've already said here that our system of packet communications and

 4     cryptographic encoding were done and I don't know how it was done in the

 5     Republika Srpska army.  And at this point in time I don't know how they

 6     operate because the technologies have changed and now most of the work is

 7     done through analogue systems and digital -- actually, there was a

 8     transition from the analogue to the digital system, and how it's being

 9     done now I really don't know.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether foreign services other than the

11     services of the former Yugoslav republics, for instance, NATO states such

12     as the United States, Britain, and so on, did you know that they

13     monitored all communications in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina during

14     the war?

15        A.   I really don't know whether they had all of this under their

16     control, as you're saying.  But I know that they did control us in the

17     physical sense.  They controlled personnel, ammunition, units,

18     facilities, and so on.  It was their permanent task.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D128, page 13, in

20     e-court.  230 and 231 are the page numbers of the book.  And this is a

21     book by the Dutch institute and it's about Srebrenica.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   But let me ask you first:  Do you know that the United States had

24     a so-called mercury satellite which was capable of intercepting even

25     radio communications on talkie-walkies and similar equipment?

Page 2407

 1        A.   I'm not aware of the existence of that satellite.  I don't know

 2     what it was used for.  Now, whether they used their satellites in the

 3     territory of Bosnia, I don't know.  We had no such information.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the CIA director John Deutch came to

 5     Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1996

 6     when he was the CIA director and that he officially confirmed that there

 7     had been satellites for intercepting communications?

 8        A.   I truly regret, but I neither know John Deutch nor do I know that

 9     in 1996 he came for a visit and what he said on that occasion.  I don't

10     know anything about that.

11        Q.   This is on the left side, first paragraph, second sentence -- I

12     apologise, on the right side.  This is the right side.  It doesn't say

13     here that he came to visit Republika Srpska, but the other things I said

14     about his visit you can find that in this document.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I know we've gone

17     around on this topic for quite some time, but I don't see what the

18     relevance is of the questions that Mr. Tolimir's putting to the witness.

19     I don't see what the relevance is of this witness's knowledge of the

20     capacity of other entities to intercept -- I don't see what that has to

21     do with either the accuracy, reliability, or the ability of the ABiH army

22     to intercept VRS communications.  And so either I would ask Mr. Tolimir

23     to either clarify the basis of it, otherwise I just don't see how this is

24     relevant to the testimony of this witness.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the Chamber would appreciate if you could

Page 2408

 1     focus on that part of the evidence of the witness he can really testify

 2     about.  Please carry on.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We have

 4     an intelligence officer testifying here who also acted as an advisor to

 5     the OTP on the same topic that we are discussing here.  This is why I've

 6     been putting these questions to him here.  And I even asked him whether

 7     he would act as their advisor in my case as well.  This is why I'm

 8     putting these questions to him.  I think that as an officer he should be

 9     able to answer this, and I always lay the foundation for my questions.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you realise what the witness was able to

11     answer.  Please carry on but focus on his knowledge.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know that the drones and also various

15     aircraft, manned and unmanned, was used to intercept communications in

16     the conflict that we are dealing with in this Tribunal, yes or no?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the NATO centre for air operations

19     with its headquarter in Vicenza, in Italy, which co-ordinated all air

20     operations over Bosnia was also involved in intercepting communications?

21     Do you know about that?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused, please.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 2409

 1        Q.   Thank you.  The majority of the notebooks whose cover we saw here

 2     in your evidence in-chief, was it manufactured in Italy?

 3        A.   I'm not aware of that and this is the first time that I hear such

 4     a question.  I never paid attention to where the notebooks were from.  It

 5     was important for us to simply have notebooks.  We didn't care where they

 6     had been manufactured.

 7        Q.   And can you tell us where you obtained these notebooks?  The OTP

 8     showed us on the screen a number of these notebooks containing intercept

 9     records, and almost all of these notebooks, up to the number of 48, were

10     all manufactured in Italy, save for three or four.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is the question, Mr. Tolimir?  You've got

12     the answer already.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness said that he heard it

14     for the first time so I simply reminded him, and my question comes now.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Put -- please put questions to the witness.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D136, please.  Thank

17     you.

18             [Microphone not activated].

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Tell me, please, what we see on our screens, is it notebook 84?

22     It says "84" over this picture.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Is this notebook from the collection of notebooks

25     containing intercepts made by your unit?

Page 2410

 1        A.   I think so.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 2 of this

 3     notebook.  And the witness can now tell us whether this document comes

 4     from his unit.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you conclude based on this that this document comes from the

 7     facility mentioned here as the facility north in this case?

 8        A.   Yes.  That's what it looks like, like a notebook from the

 9     northern facility.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 1 of this

11     document, 1D136.  Thank you.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].

13        Q.   You intercepted communications in 1995.  How do you then explain

14     that in the upper corner it says in Italian:  "ID."  And then it says

15     "Italian university."  And the date is the 1st of January, 2001.  Thank

16     you.

17        A.   I really don't know and I don't know what this stands for,

18     "1 GEN 2001," I don't know.  This notebook definitely is from 1995.  And

19     I have no explanation.

20        Q.   Well, if it is from 1995, how come it says here on this notebook

21     "1st generation 2001"?

22        A.   I can't explain what is written here, but how do you think that I

23     could have handed over this notebook to the OTP representatives in 1998

24     with this date, 2001, written on it?

25        Q.   Thank you.  Everything is odd concerning this, but one could ask

Page 2411

 1     whether this notebook was created in 1995 or perhaps in a later period of

 2     time.

 3        A.   I'm testifying under oath here and I'm certain that all notebooks

 4     that we handed over to the OTP representatives come from 1995 or earlier

 5     period of time.  They were created when the intercepts were recorded in

 6     the southern and northern facility in time up to 1995, and how this

 7     writing came to be on the notebook I have no idea.  It could have been

 8     done later.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now could we ask the Trial Chamber

11     to request the OTP to produce the original notebook so that all of us

12     here can see that we didn't put this stamp on the notebook.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It's no problem.  I

15     believe we can have the notebook available for Mr. Tolimir to inspect if

16     he'd like.  Again, I believe Mr. Gajic has had an opportunity to view it

17     as well.  But I would object to the line of questioning all together, and

18     the reason for that is, I would ask Mr. Tolimir, rather, to proffer a

19     good-faith basis for putting a question to the witness that the book was

20     manufactured in 2001, because as you can see from the exhibit before you,

21     there is nothing put fictitious writing on the cover of this book.

22     It's -- there's a photograph there of a chipmunk with a University of

23     Italia T-shirt on.  It purports to be an identity card of this chipmunk.

24     It's signed by the mayor in Sindaco, it says, of Popotiucci, which are

25     completely fictitious characters' names and numbers on this book.  So --

Page 2412

 1     and it says the signature of the chipmunk on the identity card as

 2     "Popotia," it says.

 3             So I would ask Mr. Tolimir to put or to come forward with a

 4     good-faith basis for the line of questioning to suggest that this book

 5     was manufactured at a time other than what the witness says.  Otherwise I

 6     don't think it's a relevant line of questioning.  But of course, as I

 7     said, I'll be happy to make this book available to the Trial Chamber and

 8     to anybody else who would like to see it.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, this problem could have been

10     raised in re-examination, but I would like to clarify to shorten this

11     kind of question, I would like to ask the witness:

12             Can you tell me which parts of this cover page of this notebook

13     were produced by you or members of your unit?  What you can see here on

14     the screen, is there anything or what was written down or in other way

15     produced on this page by you or members of your unit?

16             Do we have a problem with the transcript?  Thank you.  I was told

17     we have a problem with record on LiveNote, but it is covered fully.

18     Thank you.

19             Do you remember my question?  Could you explain that.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is how it was.  Underneath

21     "Carta Di Identita Dei Popoti," it says "Number 14, log-book of notes 4,"

22     and then the designation of the piece of equipment, 100 plus 450B, that's

23     what the members of our unit wrote.  And then over the picture you can

24     see number 84, if I'm not mistaken.  We wrote that number together with

25     the OTP representatives in 1998, and you can probably find this notebook

Page 2413

 1     under number 84 in the record which was made when the documents were

 2     handed over.  I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I'm pretty confident that

 3     this notebook would be found under number 84 in the hand-over record.

 4     That's all that we wrote.  As for the rest of the text, I don't know

 5     about it.  I'm actually convinced now that this notebook can be found

 6     under number 84 in the record made in 1998.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.  We have now the explanation you

 9     wanted to have.  Please carry on -- one question by Judge Nyambe.  Sorry.

10             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Just a clarification from the witness.  Looking at

11     the document on the screen, there is a number "1 GEN 2001."  You can see

12     that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

14             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Here is the question:  At the time you used -- at

15     the time this notebook was used by you or somebody in your department,

16     was that number on the notebook?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't make any

18     statements in relation to the part of the text which says "1 GEN 2001,"

19     but I can definitely tell you that the number that we have there, which

20     is 00789467, was not written there before 1998.  And I'm also sure that

21     this large number written in a marker was not written before either.  And

22     I'm sure that this document can be found among the 135 documents that we

23     handed over.  That part I'm sure of.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I owe

Page 2414

 1     you an explanation for my request to show -- to have this shown again.

 2     The witness said that this particular stamp, "1 GEN 2001," may have been

 3     placed there subsequently.  And I said that this document was constantly

 4     within the chain of custody of the Prosecution.  And I'm reiterating my

 5     request for the original notebook to be shown to the witness.  The

 6     Defence could not have had any part in this because we were never given

 7     the original documentation which is in the possession of the Prosecution,

 8     and we would like to tender this into evidence, if you agree.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  As I said, I will

11     make that notebook available for Mr. Tolimir to look at and inspect.  I

12     believe that his legal advisor has already done so.  The date that's

13     indicated on the document, 1st January 2001, on the cover of this

14     document, purports to be the date that the chipmunk signed it.  That's

15     how fictitious the cover of this document is.  That's the reason why I've

16     asked for Mr. Tolimir to present a good-faith basis for making -- or to

17     putting the question to the witness suggesting that the book was

18     manufactured at a date other than what the witness has said.  And he's

19     repeatedly said that it can be found in the log, look on the second page

20     of this notebook, as Mr. Tolimir has done, you will see a number

21     reflected in the log-book that the witness has also just identified.

22     So --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, it would be helpful to shorten

24     the whole question of the originality of this book to have it available

25     after the next break, and I would like to ask Mr. Tolimir to move to

Page 2415

 1     another topic and to leave this behind until we will have the original in

 2     the courtroom.  Please carry on but not again with this document, please.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Please let me know if you will receive this notebook into

 5     evidence.  Secondly, a doubt was expressed here as to whether the Defence

 6     might have had a hand in this and added this or not, and that's why we

 7     would like to see the original notebook and we would like the witness to

 8     see the notebook, and then we will decide what to do on this score in the

 9     future.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please listen to what I have said.

11     The notebook will be available in the courtroom.  Please move to another

12     topic.  We can deal with that later.  And nobody said that there is a

13     doubt that perhaps the Defence has put something on this book; nobody

14     said that.  I haven't heard it.  Please carry on with another topic.  We

15     come back to this document later.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             Can we now call up again that book and page 231.  That's 1D128.

18     That's page 13 in e-court.  Can we have page 17 in e-court, i.e.,

19     page 239 of the book, the headline:  "Other European countries."

20             Thank you.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   I will quote this.  It has to do with Srebrenica and Zepa.  I

23     quote:

24             "Besides the United Kingdom, Germany, and France, other European

25     countries also conducted Sigint operations in the former Yugoslavia.  To

Page 2416

 1     date, almost nothing has been known about this.  One known fact is that

 2     Italian monitoring stations were active during the war in Bosnia.  To

 3     give one example -- to give one example, some time before the attack on

 4     the enclave the Italian monitoring service, via a monitoring station in

 5     Italy, intercepted a telephone conversation between the mayor of

 6     Srebrenica and President Izetbegovic.  In this call the mayor requested

 7     permission to evacuate the population, but this was refused by

 8     Izetbegovic."

 9             And then moving on to the last line.  It is also stated that the

10     Italians had ten parabolic antennas to listen in to communications

11     traffic in the Balkans, the Middle East, et cetera.

12             This is my question:  A moment ago we were able to see that NATO

13     had a unit in Vicenza.  We were also able to see that quite a lot of

14     interception activities took place in Italy, hence my question.  You, as

15     an intelligence officer, did you have any knowledge of the presence of

16     the intelligence services of Italy and their activities in intercepting

17     communications in Zepa and Srebrenica?  Thank you.

18        A.   I had no idea of the presence of any Italian services or centres

19     intercepting conversations.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the mayor of Srebrenica, as it is

21     stated here, tried to get in touch with President Izetbegovic in order to

22     request permission for evacuation?  Was this something your service was

23     acquainted with?

24        A.   No, we didn't have information to that effect.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 2417

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 22 in e-court now,

 2     and that's page 251 of the book on Srebrenica.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry for interrupting you.  We have a big

 4     problem with the transcript in LiveNote, and I was told the engineers

 5     are -- have to start the whole system again to resolve this problem.  And

 6     therefore it is suggested that we have the second break now, and in the

 7     meantime this problem can be solved so that we have appropriate -- we

 8     have the record of everything is clear, but that we have both screens

 9     working sufficiently.

10             We must have the second break now and we will resume ten minutes

11     to 1.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, if I'm not mistaken, you have -- we

15     have not the transcript on -- the LiveNote transcript on our screen yet,

16     but somebody will solve this problem.

17             Mr. Tolimir, you have used more than four hours now and we should

18     try to finish this witness today because our next hearing is Tuesday,

19     next week, and the Prosecution must have the chance to re-examine the

20     witness.  Therefore, please carry on and try not to waste time.

21             Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Witness, I was about to ask you another question on this book,

25     but I'm afraid we won't have time anymore to deal with this book which

Page 2418

 1     addressed in great detail the issue of interception in Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina, and I'm sure you will be reading it thoroughly later as I

 3     will and everybody else.

 4             Can you tell us when did you obtain these multi-coloured

 5     notebooks that we can see on our screens now?

 6        A.   The only thing I can tell you is that we obtained notebooks in

 7     different periods of time, different batches.  At one point we also

 8     received a shipment from the corps command.  But I think that this sort

 9     of notebooks appeared in early 1995.

10        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can I conclude, based on your answer, that these notebooks were

14     used also during the period when the intercepts we were discussing were

15     taken?  Thank you.

16        A.   I can speak about the period of early 1995 because I was there

17     myself.  I can't tell you and I don't want to make any statements in

18     relation to the preceding period.  We had small shipments, I think,

19     previously, whereas in 1995 there were more of such notebooks to be found

20     on the market and everywhere else.  So that's how we obtained them.

21        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber if there existed a different sort

22     of notebooks which contained the intercepts recorded in manuscript which

23     includes also the period between 10th and the 17th, which was the period

24     we were referring to?

25        A.   I think that there were other sorts of notebooks as well.  You

Page 2419

 1     could see that we had A5-size notebooks and A4-size notebooks.

 2        Q.   I know that there are other sorts of notebooks, but I'm asking

 3     you:  Were intercepts transcribed manually in any other sorts of

 4     notebooks than the ones we were able to see and which covered the period

 5     of the 10th and the 17th July 1995?  Thank you.

 6        A.   As I said, most of the notebooks used in 1993 [as interpreted]

 7     looked like this.  Now, whether there were other notebooks that we

 8     received from division platoons, I don't know what sort of notebooks

 9     division platoons monitoring communications used.  What I do know is that

10     most of the notebooks used for this purpose in 1995 were of this sort.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can we find an intercept noted in a notebook which

12     would not have been of the format that we were able to see a moment ago

13     on our screens?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would just note

16     that in the record at page 60, line 10, it refers to notebooks being used

17     in 1993.  I think that's a transcription error, but I just wanted to

18     clarify it for the record so that we're clear going forward.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, could you please clarify.  Were you

20     referring to 1995 or 1993 in your last answer?  It is written --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, I said --

22     sorry.  I said that in 1995 most of the notebooks used were of this

23     format.  And I'm speaking of the period when I joined the unit, which

24     doesn't mean to say that these sort of notebooks had not been used

25     previously as well.

Page 2420

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, is there an intercept relating to the

 3     critical period between 10th and the 17th which is related to these

 4     events and originates from intercepted communications of the VRS and

 5     which has not been recorded in one of these notebooks?  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, Mr. Tolimir, we had again problems with

 7     the LiveNote, but now you may continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  My

 9     question for the witness was as follows.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is there a notebook where intercepts were transcribed between the

12     period of the 10th and the 17th of July, 1995, other than the notebooks

13     manufactured in Italy that we saw earlier on?  Thank you.

14        A.   If you're referring to the communications intercepted by my unit,

15     I don't think that there are any other notebooks for the mentioned

16     period.

17        Q.   Thank you.  How do you account for the fact that only in these

18     notebooks were the communications intercepted at all three locations and

19     which are now the subject of this trial?

20        A.   I think that this is quite a simple issue here.  I think that

21     this was the only stationery available to us, and I think the same goes

22     for the 21st Division, the 25th Division, perhaps the 22nd as well.  Ever

23     since my arrival in the unit, in late winter or early spring, this was

24     the sort of notebooks that we received and used.

25        Q.   I'm not interested in what the other units had.  Please focus on

Page 2421

 1     my question.  My question was:  Were there any other handwritten records

 2     of intercepts made in notebooks other than these, the ones that we

 3     discussed?  And I'm referring to the intercepts captured by your unit.

 4     Thank you.

 5        A.   I don't think that there should be.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir --

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you didn't think that there should

 9     be --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think you have now the original

11     notebook in your hands.  The Chamber would appreciate to have the

12     possibility to look at that as well and could the -- Mr. Vanderpuye

13     perhaps indicate if there is any confidential material because it was

14     shown on the screen now.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  On the cover of the notebook, I don't believe

16     there is, no.  On the inside there is.  Mr. Tolimir doesn't have the copy

17     with him because I offered it earlier and they indicated that they didn't

18     want it.  But I have it and if the Trial Chamber would like to see it,

19     it's certainly here.  I can certainly make it available to you and I

20     would like to make it available to you.  And I don't know if Mr. Tolimir

21     would like to see it now at this point, but it's right here on my desk.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We would like to see it because we dealt with

23     that quite a long time and to clarify this topic.  We would like to

24     receive it.

25             Court Officer, could you -- the Court Officer, could you bring

Page 2422

 1     it, please.  Thank you.

 2             Carry on, please.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Witness, you said a moment ago that there were no other

 6     intercepts relating to the period between the 10th and the 17th which

 7     would have been recorded in any other notebooks.  So my question is this:

 8     In the notebooks of this size, which were manufactured in Italy, were

 9     there any intercepts recorded which did not relate to the period between

10     the 10th and the 17th?

11        A.   Yes, there are many such intercepts.

12        Q.   And do these intercepts relate to the earlier or the later

13     period?

14        A.   Both.

15        Q.   Thank you.  How much earlier were such notebooks used -- so how

16     much in advance of the intercepts you started to make and which already

17     related to the operations in Srebrenica and Zepa?

18        A.   Well, we can set the date from which we started using them at my

19     arrival there, which was late February/early March.  And up until

20     November, I think you can find various intercepts recorded in such

21     notebooks which had nothing to do with the relevant period.

22        Q.   Fine.  If these notebooks contain handwritten records of

23     intercepts, and let's take it that these notebooks only contain

24     intercepts relating to Srebrenica and Zepa and nothing else, was it

25     possible for certain intercepts to have been recorded into them at a

Page 2423

 1     later date?  Thank you.

 2        A.   No, that was absolutely not possible.  All the notebooks were

 3     used in the facilities themselves and nothing was copied into them from

 4     any other documents.  The records contained in them were the

 5     transcription directly from the communications as they were listened to

 6     on the UHER reel-to-reel tape recorder.

 7        Q.   So please then tell me, the intercepts that they contain, do they

 8     solely relate to Zepa and Srebrenica?

 9        A.   These notebooks do not only contain intercepts related to Zepa

10     and Srebrenica.  I said that they also contain intercepts made several

11     months ahead of that period as well as after.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I think we're clear on that.  Can you tell me when

13     you received these notebooks for the first time and who from?  You said

14     something about it in general terms, but I should like to know

15     specifically.

16        A.   Let's be quite clear.  These were insignificant details at the

17     time.  As I said, we received some of the notebooks from the logistic

18     service of the 2nd Corps.  Some of the notebooks were bought in exchange

19     for flour at the location where the unit's command was stationed.

20        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Who did you buy the second batch of notebooks from and they are

24     also manufactured in Italy?

25        A.   Well, in the village where the unit was stationed.

Page 2424

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Is it possible based on the bar code present on these

 2     notebooks to determine with the manufacturer when the notebooks were

 3     produced and released to the market?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Based on what I know about it, though I don't know what the bar

 5     code specifically contains save for some information about the

 6     manufacturer, et cetera, one should be able to define whether these

 7     notebooks were manufactured in the relevant period or not.  But let me

 8     tell Their Honours that the intercepts recorded in them were made in that

 9     period and that the notebooks were handed over to ICTY representatives in

10     1998.  And that's something I stand by fully.

11        Q.   But in what way can you demonstrate that the contents of these

12     notebooks were made back in 1995 before they were handed over to ICTY

13     representatives for their purposes by your command?

14        A.   I can demonstrate it with several details, one of which is that

15     every notebook was entered into the log-book with a designation of the

16     military unit concerned, since the military units changed their

17     designation numbers.  Every unit would get its designation number, be it

18     an infantry brigade or anything else, and this is something that can

19     easily be checked through the documentation.

20             The second detail is the handwriting which can be recognised by

21     the individuals involved in the work, and some of the notebooks - I can't

22     recall if all of them - I signed at the end, saying that the notebook had

23     as many pages so as to make it impossible to add anything to it.

24             And then thirdly, there is a log-book of all records of the unit

25     concerned and of all the documents when they were filed, et cetera, all

Page 2425

 1     of this was handed over to the archives.

 2             Fourthly, all these notebooks which were filled, as soon as they

 3     were full they would be returned to the unit's command and kept in the

 4     safe.  They would also be filed under certain number there.

 5             Fifthly, there were records of -- and the notebooks themselves

 6     which were taken by ICTY representatives, they were the ones to see them

 7     first, and at that time they did not contain these numbers, 84, 92,

 8     et cetera.  We were supposed to sort all this documentation out and hand

 9     it over to them accompanied by a record of this.

10        Q.   You just said that the notebooks did not contain these marks at

11     the time and that you had to jointly work on this and make a record of

12     the hand-over, et cetera.  Does it mean that you were involved in this

13     process of placing markings?

14        A.   You were able to see the notebook which had number 84 on it.

15     This was written in 1998 because it was item 84 in the record of the

16     handover.  So the only thing that was added to that notebook was

17     number 84 which was placed in 1998.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I call up 1D136, page 2, in

19     order for me to be able to put a question to the witness.  We'll be --

20     what we will soon have on our screens is page 2 of that notebook you

21     referred to a moment ago.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You see it says:  "Army of the Republic of Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina" at the top.  You stated here yourself that you weren't able

25     to know what was done at this level.  So what strikes me as curious is

Page 2426

 1     that an operator should have written the name of his army there but not

 2     the title of his unit as well.  How do you account for this?

 3        A.   Quite simply, this would be written by operators working in these

 4     facilities.  Whenever they had some spare time to rest they would write

 5     titles, draw lilies, as you can see them, or write "PEB."  And the

 6     important thing here was to see which unit this referred to and the dates

 7     when the records were made.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  But this is not the date when this record was made

 9     because here it says this is written by the user of this notebook.  It

10     says the student between 20th of April, 1995, up until the 9th of May,

11     1995.  In other words, less than a month that this person was a student

12     for 19 days.  So does that mean that this notebook was actually filled

13     for -- in a period of less than a month?

14        A.   Well, where it says "student" and whatever's written after it,

15     that has nothing to do with anything.  What it says here is that the

16     first intercept was recorded on the 20th April and that the last

17     intercept was recorded on the 9th of May, 1995.  This is what we insisted

18     on.  These intercepts may have come from various routes, but they were

19     and this -- all the entries in this notebook were made from the 20th --

20     from those dates to that date.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, tell us, please, did you -- were you sent for

22     training abroad other than the school you went through in the JNA during

23     or before your centre was established?

24        A.   I did not go abroad at the time when this centre was being

25     established.  But I was sent abroad later on, after the year 2000.

Page 2427

 1        Q.   Could you tell us where you were in the year 2000, what country,

 2     and was this for training or was it on private business?

 3        A.   I travelled to Malaysia in 2001 where I went for training.  This

 4     was the basic intelligence course.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you travel to any other country?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Do you have a passport which could corroborate what you've just

 8     told us?  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I really just don't see the

11     relevance of this particular line of questioning at all.  If he wants to

12     ask him about his training, I don't see any problem with that.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the accused should carry on until five

14     minutes past half past 1.00, that means 1.35.  And think about how to use

15     this time properly.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I asked

17     whether the witness had a passport which would show what countries he

18     travelled to.  Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Yes or no?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, when you came here to the Tribunal, did you

23     come here with a passport?  Did you have a passport with you?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   When was that passport issued?

Page 2428

 1        A.   At the beginning of this year.

 2        Q.   Where was your last passport?

 3        A.   Well, you should know that every time you're issued a new

 4     passport, the old passport is destroyed.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did any of your operators go abroad for training?

 6     Thank you.

 7        A.   No, never, not one of them.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  We had a witness here who told us that he did go for

 9     training abroad.  He was from the northern location.  Is it possible that

10     he was sent there without you knowing about it?

11        A.   Well, I really don't know who this might have been, that this

12     could have been anyone from the northern location.  This could have been

13     later on, but before 1999 -- before 1999 no one was sent abroad.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye -- Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Again, I don't see

16     the relevance of this line of questioning.  The second thing is that the

17     question as it was put to the witness misrepresents the record in this

18     case because the question was asked whether or not there was anybody --

19     any of his unit that received the training and framed in terms of a

20     person in a completely different unit.  So I don't think it was fairly

21     put to the witness to begin with.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could -- you have already received

23     the answer and therefore I think we shouldn't deal with that anymore.

24     Carry on, please, but not with the same topic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Could

Page 2429

 1     the Trial Chamber please inspect this notebook and see all the labels on

 2     it.  And we would like to suggest that it be actually examined by an

 3     expert so that we could determine the time when it actually came into

 4     being.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I wanted to give you the chance to finish your

 6     questioning and then the Chamber was -- intended to deal with this

 7     notebook.  Perhaps first questions to this witness.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Is it possible, Witness, that entries were made in these

11     notebooks after the fact because the intercepts were not used at the time

12     of their actual recording?  Thank you.

13        A.   Well, based on my experience and the way we worked, I've already

14     told you that there was a period, a realtime period, when these reports

15     were made and these intercepts written down that would be within an hour

16     or two of the realtime communications and then they would be forwarded

17     on.  However, this time-frame of an hour or two was quite realistic in

18     view of the technology that we used.  And if these intercepts contained

19     significant and urgent information, they would have been sent immediately

20     on; and if not, they would just be recorded, taped, and then transcripts

21     made.  And I have already answered this question several times.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Was it standard practice to broadcast via public

23     media transcripts of intercepts of conversations between the members of

24     the enemy force?

25        A.   No.

Page 2430

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the media actually broadcast and

 2     reported on conversations between General Kukanjac and some other

 3     officers from Visegrad?

 4        A.   Well, I do know about that, but I heard about this in some TV

 5     programmes after the war.

 6        Q.   Did the media report and broadcast some statements by

 7     General Mladic?

 8        A.   Well, I really wouldn't know what they reported.  You have to be

 9     aware of the fact that there were power shortages, so I don't know

10     whether they were or weren't.

11        Q.   Do you recall whether there was an intercept of a conversation

12     between General Mladic and Fikret Abdic broadcast in the media?  Thank

13     you.

14        A.   I cannot recall.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was any of your intercepts of General Mladic's

16     conversations with any members of the VRS published in the media?

17        A.   Well, I can just tell you about what I know from the time when I

18     was there.  I can tell you that General Mladic did not really use the

19     means of communication that we intercepted, not very frequently.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did anyone ever ask you to -- for permission to

21     broadcast one of your intercepts in order to show what was going on in

22     Zepa and Srebrenica?  Thank you.

23        A.   I or any of my subordinates were never asked to do anything like

24     that, but whether something like that happened before my time, I don't

25     know.

Page 2431

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us now whether you or any of your

 2     subordinates from either the northern or southern location were ever sent

 3     for training abroad.

 4        A.   In the period in question, I state with certainty that none of

 5     our men were abroad for any type of training.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever send people abroad for training?  Did

 7     you propose individuals who should be sent abroad?

 8        A.   In the period up until 1998, no one was ever sent abroad and

 9     there were no proposals to that effect.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Was training offered for your members, your

11     subordinates, by -- to be conducted by NATO?  Thank you.

12        A.   Not one of my subordinates nor I ever went to a NATO base to

13     undergo any type of training.

14        Q.   I didn't ask whether you went to NATO bases.  I just asked

15     whether any of them were sent for training by NATO.

16        A.   Well, I think my answer was clear.  No one could leave the unit

17     without my authorisation, which I would have to obtain from my superior

18     command, and that is why I stated with certainty that no one was ever

19     sent for training to any base while I was there.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You told us that you got some of the notebooks from

21     the logistics section and that some of them you obtained in the village.

22     I want to ask you whether that relates to both the southern and the

23     northern location notebooks?

24        A.   That is absolutely correct.  All the notebooks would arrive at

25     the unit command where they were then logged and sent to the locations.

Page 2432

 1     We didn't check whether they had come from logistics or whatever else.

 2     They would all be just registered together and then forwarded on.

 3        Q.   Well, you told us a little earlier that they were obtained from

 4     logistics or in the village, and I asked you whether this was done --

 5     whether the batches were from the village or -- and whether those bought

 6     in the village were sent to both the northern and the southern locations?

 7        A.   Those notebooks were purchased in the villages where the command

 8     was located, but these were not all the notebooks that we had.  And I

 9     recall this because I was questioned by my superiors about this and I

10     stated clearly that such notebooks and these notebooks were also

11     purchased from elsewhere.  And I've already explained that at that time

12     there were -- there was a batch or a shipment of such notebooks, they

13     appeared in the market, and you could see them everywhere.  Whether they

14     came from the humanitarian aid convoys or batches or not, I don't know.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us, could the Italian manufacturer

16     actually distribute these notebooks in Bosnia and Herzegovina and sell

17     them there?  Thank you.

18        A.   I really don't know whether the producer -- manufacturer could or

19     couldn't do that, but they were in the market.  You could find them in

20     the market at the time.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Just answer this question, please:  Did any of your

22     members from either the northern or southern location travel to Italy and

23     did you travel to Italy?

24        A.   I would love to travel to Italy and I hope that I get an

25     opportunity soon because one of my nephews lives there, but I never had

Page 2433

 1     that opportunity until now and none of my men did.  And during the time

 2     when I was the commander of that unit, none of my men travelled to Italy.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

 5     notebook 1D131 into evidence and I would like to tender this book into

 6     evidence, 1D128 and 1D126.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter correction:  1D36.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is 1D36 on the screen at the moment?  Is there a

 9     translation?  There's no translation.  Is there a translation pending?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  This is

11     a document that was tendered by the Prosecution.  1D136, 136.  Now, we've

12     asked for this document to be uploaded into e-court, and now I would like

13     to tender it into evidence.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is clear.  We have your indication.  The

15     Defence list of potential exhibits for this witness, and there you

16     indicated that translation of this document is pending.  And this is the

17     reason why I asked you.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering only this page on the -- we

20     have on the screen now?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President, I'm

22     tendering both the first and the second page if that's possible.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I understand --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And we will obtain a translation.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand the situation that a translation is

Page 2434

 1     not necessary because of the content of this document.  It will be

 2     received.

 3             Is there a need to have it under seal, Mr. Vanderpuye?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, the second page of the document

 5     contains the location of the site, so I would say yes.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 1D136 is now Exhibit D47, under seal.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the other document you tender, which was it?

 9     1D126.  Is that correct?  No, 128.  It will be received under seal.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D48, under seal.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             The Chamber has reviewed this notebook.  Of course we are not

13     experts in printing and handwriting, but after first view it seems to be

14     except the following everything was printed and covered by a kind of

15     plastic cover, except the portions the witness has indicated under the

16     headline "Carta Di Identita Dei Popoti," there is a handwriting number 14

17     and then a certain number, it's not legible for me.  And then at the end

18     in this line, the number 100 plus 450 and then two letters, TS maybe.

19     And then we have this big number 84 with an underlining and on the left

20     side a number, a typical number of the OTP.

21             If you want further investigation, you should move for that in

22     writing.  This is to clarify the situation.

23             Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Only very briefly, Mr. President.  I guess I

25     might as well pick up where you are, and that relates to this, I think

Page 2435

 1     it's D47 that's just been marked, which is the notebook in question.  I

 2     don't know if other than the two pages are uploaded in the e-court, but I

 3     would like to turn to the third page if we can.  We can no longer do

 4     that?  Oh, only the two pages are in.  May I use the original notebook

 5     for a moment, then, please, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Please hand it over to Mr. Vanderpuye.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  What I'd like to do is I'd like to show this to

 8     the witness and then if we could place it on the ELMO and we can go to

 9     the third page.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to know if it's possible to place side

12     by side - maybe not - the image from the ELMO against an exhibit in

13     e-court.  I will do them sequentially, then.  Thank you.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

15        Q.   Witness, first have you had an occasion to look at the book and

16     can you tell us whether or not, in your opinion, it's an original or if

17     it's not an original book?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have it on the ELMO at the moment.

19     Something happened.  It disappeared.  Now we have it again.  Thank you.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:

21        Q.   I'll repeat my question.  Looking at the book, can you tell us

22     whether or not, in your opinion, it's an original book or if it's not?

23        A.   This book is absolutely an original dating from 1995.

24        Q.   And what I'd like to refer you to in particular is the number

25     that's on the screen now, which reads:  "STR POV BR," and then it reads

Page 2436

 1     "08/2-01-161" and it appears to say -- to be dated 12.04.95.  Do you see

 2     that on the screen in front of you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And tell us what that number is.

 5        A.   This number is a strictly confidential number, 08/2, that is the

 6     number assigned by the competent command to each and every unit every

 7     year.  This is a registry number assigned to a unit, 08/2.  That number

 8     varied.  As for the other numbers, they indicated certain issues, and the

 9     last number, 161, is the number under which this was logged in the

10     log-book in the unit where I worked.

11             Below that we see the date when this was logged and this notebook

12     was sent in this form to the locations.  Because we had an insufficient

13     number of men at the command, normally each page should be logged under a

14     number and the last page should also bear the signature or the date when

15     that individual, a platoon commander or a unit commander at the location,

16     actually logged that book.

17        Q.   And would the logging of the book take place before the entries

18     that are made in the book?

19        A.   It would be logged before any entries were made in the book.

20     There were times when we found notebooks that lay around from earlier and

21     where we would subsequently log those notebooks.  But normally all the

22     notebooks that we obtained, they would be logged and then sent to the

23     locations.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could have, please, P285 in e-court.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can this notebook be removed from the ELMO?

Page 2437

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to have it there just for a moment

 2     longer.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think it should be page 4 in e-court is what

 5     I'm looking for.

 6        Q.   While that's loading, Witness, was the purpose of the

 7     registration of the notebooks done for the purpose of -- was the purpose

 8     of registering the notebooks so that they could be identified at a later

 9     point in time?

10        A.   At this time no one knew -- we had no clue why or what those

11     notebooks would be used for.  But as I already said, when I arrived there

12     and on orders from my superiors, we wanted to bring some order into the

13     whole thing so we wanted to register these books and bring some order

14     here.  And this was simply the period when we tried to bring some real

15     military order there.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just blow up the entry in this

17     exhibit number that's marked -- denominated number 84 and what I'd like

18     to do is compare that to the number that's in the book itself.  If we

19     could focus in just a little bit just on the number 84 so it's very

20     clear.

21        Q.   Now, the number that's indicated under 84 in this entry which

22     you've indicated previously was a list of documents that you compiled

23     that were transferred to the representatives of The Hague in 1998 reads

24     as follows:  "STR POV 08/2-01-161," and it's dated 12.04.95.  Does that

25     correspond to the entry that's in the notebook in front of you right now?

Page 2438

 1     I mean the physical notebook.  So you can pick it up and take a look and

 2     see if it matches.

 3        A.   I've already said about the heading of this notebook, and I can

 4     see now that it is the identical number that was logged here.  But I also

 5     mentioned that the 84 -- the number 84 was entered later on in 1998.

 6     That was just a sequential number, and in order to make things even

 7     clearer, we also indicated the format of the notebook so that you can

 8     easily single them out by just looking at them.  So we see that this

 9     format of this notebook was A5, which means that it's a small-sized

10     notebook.  And then further to the right in the columns we should also

11     see the dates when the first entries were made in that notebook and when

12     the last ones were made.

13        Q.   And do you have any doubt whether the book that's in front of you

14     now is the book that's recorded in the log that you prepared in 1998?

15        A.   Personally, I have no doubts whatsoever, and a little earlier I

16     saw - because this is the first time that I have had this notebook in my

17     hands since the war - I saw another signature in this notebook.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You will understand that by looking

20     at some of the information I'm kind of taken back into that time.  You

21     will see that there is another signatory there.  I can tell you his name

22     because I recognise his signature.  And when this individual counted the

23     sheets that were filled, he saw that there were 52 sheets and he placed

24     the date there and his signature.  That's one of the heads of the

25     department.  If you want me to state his name, I can.

Page 2439

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 2        Q.   You don't need to state his name right now because we're in open

 3     session.

 4        A.   Very well.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  My

 7     question is:  What is the relevance of a document produced in 1998 to the

 8     events we are discussing here and the intercepts from back in 1995?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye is re-examining.

10             Please carry on but bear in mind we are really running out of

11     time.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I understand that, Mr. President.  Thank you

13     very much.

14             Just for the record, this reflects the last page of the notebook,

15     which is on the ELMO.  The ERN number indicated is 0078-9575.  I think I

16     will tender the whole book, but I just want the record to be clear as to

17     what the witness is referring to.

18        Q.   Witness, I just want to ask you a couple of other questions

19     because we are --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, you don't have time for that.  I am very

21     sorry.  We are over time already for ten minutes.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Oh, I wasn't aware of that.  Okay.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The courtroom will be used this afternoon by

24     another Trial Chamber.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No problem.  No problem, Mr. President.  Then

Page 2440

 1     this will conclude my examination, except I will tender the notebook in

 2     full so that it's clear for the Court.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for your understanding.  It is -- it

 4     will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P304, under seal.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This concludes the questioning for you, sir.  You

 9     will be pleased that you are now free to return to your normal

10     activities, but please be patient for one minute and sit down so that we

11     can raise all together.

12             I would like to mention two things.  We should be more aware of

13     the time we have available.  We are only sitting three days a week and it

14     was not very satisfactory by both parties because there was an extended

15     use of time.  It was indicated four hours by each party, but each party

16     used more time.  And in future, both parties - and bearing in mind the

17     situation of today - especially, Mr. Tolimir, you should think about a

18     better use of time.  We are not only -- we have not only to guarantee a

19     fair trial, but also an expeditious trial.  And we have a big trial and

20     therefore we should use the time in the most practical way we can.

21             Yesterday I asked the Defence if they have any objections to the

22     Prosecution's supplemental motion for leave to amend its 65 ter exhibit

23     list with two additional exhibits.  You indicated that you would respond

24     today so that we can make a decision.

25             Mr. Tolimir.

Page 2441

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I think

 2     that my legal advisor has already informed the Prosecution of our

 3     position, and that is that we have no objection --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- to the admission.  And I would

 6     like to thank the witness and everybody else who assisted us in the

 7     courtroom today.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 9             We have to adjourn and resume next Tuesday at 9.00 in

10     Courtroom II.  Thank you very much.  We adjourn.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.57 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of

14                           June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.