Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2708

 1                           Tuesday, 15 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             I think the next witness is ready and should be brought in.  The

 7     screens should be closed.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  Please stand and wait a

10     moment.  The screens should be opened.

11             Again, good morning, sir.  Welcome to the Tribunal.

12             Would you please read aloud the affirmation to tell the truth

13     which is on the card which is shown to you now.

14             THE WITNESS:  Good morning to everyone.

15             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

16     and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  PW-004

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

20             It is not the first time that you are in The Hague.  You know the

21     procedure.  There are some protective measures in place for you,

22     especially face distortion, so that nobody will recognise you outside the

23     courtroom, and you have a pseudonym.

24             I think Mr. Vanderpuye has some questions for you.

25             Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 2709

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President, and good morning to

 2     you, Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning, Witness.

 3             Before I get started --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could please have 65 ter 06319 -- P461, I

 6     see it's pre-marked, shown to the witness.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 8        Q.   In just a moment, a document will appear.  I want you to have a

 9     look at it and see if you can confirm that your name is indicated on it.

10        A.   Yes, PV-004 [as interpreted].

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

12             Mr. President, I would tender this document at this time.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Witness, as you recall, we met briefly yesterday, and I'm just

16     going to ask you a few questions in relation to your evidence today.  Try

17     to keep your voice up and allow a little bit of time in between the

18     question and answer so it gives the interpreters time to translate what

19     we say accurately to everyone in the courtroom.

20             Do you recall having testified in the case of Prosecutor versus

21     Vujadin Popovic et al on 27th and the 30th of October, 2006?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And was your testimony truthful?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review your testimony before

Page 2710

 1     coming to court today?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And did you read it or listen to it?

 4        A.   I listened to it.

 5        Q.   And having listened to your testimony and reviewed it, does it

 6     fairly and accurately reflect what you would say were you to be examined

 7     here today and if you were asked the same questions?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Witness.

10             Mr. President, I would tender at this time P459 and P460, 459

11     under seal.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please tell us if these are the

13     corrected and revised versions?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  They are, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is appreciated.

16             They will be received, P459 under seal, P460 public.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, in addition, I'd like to tender

18     the exhibits attendant to that prior testimony.  They are listed as P441

19     and 442, which is the testimony in the Krstic case, and then 443 through

20     448, and P449 through P453.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  All of them were used in the Popovic trial?

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That is correct, that's correct.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received with the numbers already

24     given to them.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, in addition to these documents,

Page 2711

 1     there are a number of other documents that were also either used or

 2     admitted through the witness in the Popovic trial.  I have included them

 3     on our exhibit list.  I don't actually intend to tender them, but I think

 4     to the extent that they may be helpful to the Trial Chamber in

 5     considering the testimony that was offered in that case, perhaps the

 6     Trial Chamber would like to receive them.  But it's not something that

 7     I think is necessary either to understand the testimony altogether and

 8     not something that I intended to tender.  I'm not sure exactly how we

 9     designate these documents or will be designating these documents, but I

10     just wanted to make that at least -- make the Court at least aware of

11     this.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Am I right that you are referring to the P

13     numbers 454 through 458?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They're all given a P number, but marked for

16     identification.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Very well.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's up to you to decide if you are tendering or

19     not, but you can postpone this question.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

21             I have a brief summary that I would like to proceed with.  It

22     shouldn't take more than five to seven minutes, I think.

23             The witness is a survivor of the execution of 16 Bosnian Muslim

24     men at the banks of the Jadar River on 13 July 1995.

25             The witness confirmed his testimony of 23 May 2000 in the Krstic

Page 2712

 1     case, which together with his Popovic testimony is summarised as follows:

 2             The witness lived in Srebrenica with his wife and two children in

 3     July 1995.  On 11 July 1995, the witness was forced to separate from his

 4     family due to the advance of Serb forces, who had by then "taken over

 5     half the town from the hill of Bojna," following its shelling.  The

 6     witness realised that there was no possibility safely to remain any

 7     longer in Srebrenica at that point.

 8             At around 2.30 p.m., the witness, together with several men,

 9     headed towards the village of Slatina and Susnjari, while his family went

10     to Potocari.  At the time of his arrival, some 12.000 to 15.000 men were

11     gathered in Susnjari, some bearing small arms and hunting rifles.

12             Together with the column of men, the witness left Susnjari for

13     Buljim at around midnight on 11 July into the early morning of the 12th.

14     They were led by, among others, "the head of the municipality, those in

15     charge of the civilian authority, and others who were in Srebrenica in

16     the course of the war."

17             The witness remained at Buljim through the morning of 12 July.

18     He then crossed Serb lines together with a group of men, thereafter

19     encountering an ambush near a stream.

20             The witness escaped the ambush and reached Kamenica Hill, where

21     he caught up with part of the column that had preceded his group.  The

22     men regrouped and eventually set out for the village of Kamenica and then

23     on to Burnice, where they arrived at about midnight.

24             Exhausted, the witness fell asleep, awaking in the early-morning

25     hours of 13 July.  Finding himself alone, he continued on and eventually

Page 2713

 1     reached a bridge that he recognised in the direction of Kasaba.  The

 2     witness proceeded down towards the Kravica River, but decided not to try

 3     to cross it and instead took cover in a nearby cornfield.

 4             Hearing people close by, the witness tried to avoid being seen by

 5     going into a partially burned-down house.  However, the witness stepped

 6     on a broken roof tile and was immediately detected.  Shots were fired

 7     above his head as police in dark blue camouflage uniforms demanded the

 8     witness's surrender.  The witness recognised one of these policemen.

 9             Upon his surrender, the witness's identification, wallet, diary,

10     telephone directory and money were all taken from him.  He was threatened

11     by one policeman who told him, "Lie down so I can slit your throat."

12     Fortunately, a second policeman, whom the witness also recognised,

13     intervened.  This second policeman took the witness to an area in front

14     of a school, where a couple of soldiers stood guarding a shed (or a small

15     building).  Inside the building, the witness recognised two Muslim

16     captives.

17             From there, the witness was taken across a meadow to a

18     guardhouse, where he was interrogated by Serb officers from between

19     approximately 7.00 to 9:00 a.m.  Sometime later, the witness was taken to

20     an empty house near the one at which he had been questioned.  He was

21     detained on the ground floor with several other prisoners.  At some

22     point, a 14- to 15-year-old boy was brought in.  He was later taken into

23     the hallway, beaten, and then brought back.  Over a period of time, three

24     other men were brought in and detained in the house, one of whom the

25     witness knew.  A Serb man eventually came, whom the witness knew.  He

Page 2714

 1     directed and took the witness, the other men, and the boy to a warehouse

 2     on the banks of the Jadar River, near the Konjevic Polje intersection.

 3             At the warehouse, the witness again recognised one of his

 4     captors.  Upon entering, he saw several Serb soldiers in military

 5     camouflage, armed with rifles and automatic weapons, and they ordered the

 6     prisoners to remove their clothes.  They then lined them up against a

 7     wall and proceeded to beat them.

 8             Later, the witness and the other men were ordered to get dressed

 9     and were transferred to another room, where they were again lined up and

10     beaten.  The witness heard one of the soldiers say that the prisoners

11     were to be killed and not exchanged.  Following the beatings, a bus

12     arrived and parked in front of the warehouse.  The witness and 15 others,

13     including the 14- to 15-year-old boy, were made to board the bus.  Four

14     Serb soldiers, armed with automatic weapons, also boarded.  The bus then

15     proceeded in the direction of Zvornik, stopping a short time later.

16             The prisoners were ordered off and lined up against a guardrail.

17     They were then marched downhill towards the banks of the Jadar River,

18     where they were lined up again.  The witness recalled how the prisoners

19     "waited for our lives to end there, and we expected -- there was half a

20     minute of silence, and just then the images of my children appeared in my

21     mind, and I thought I was done for."  Moments later, the soldiers opened

22     fire.

23             As men fell around him, the witness himself was struck from

24     behind in the hip and fell into the water.  He was continuously fired

25     upon as the water carried him downstream to safety.

Page 2715

 1             Eventually, the witness was able to draw himself out of the river

 2     and onto a meadow, where he surveyed his injuries.  Bleeding heavily, the

 3     witness nevertheless managed to break off a branch of a tree to assist

 4     himself in walking.  The witness eventually made it to the free territory

 5     on 16 July 1995.

 6             Your Honours, that concludes my summary.

 7             I have a few questions I'd like to put to the witness.  If we may

 8     go into private session for a moment.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2716











11 Pages 2716-2717 redacted. Private session.















Page 2718

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

11             I'd just like to show the witness a couple of other documents.

12     If I can show the witness, please, P447.

13        Q.   Witness, can you describe what we have on the screen in front of

14     you now?

15        A.   This is the place where we were executed by the Jadar River.

16        Q.   And are you able to see approximately where you would have been,

17     from this photograph?

18        A.   Somewhere around here.  [Indicates]

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  I'd like to have the witness mark

20     this photograph as well, please.

21             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document -- this

24     photograph as well.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

Page 2719

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And I'd like to show the witness --

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P463.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to show the witness P94, pages 78 and

 4     79.  It will be the following page.

 5                           [French interpretation on English channel]

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Witness, do you recognise what's depicted in this photo?

 8                           [French interpretation on English channel]

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We had some cross-interpretation, I think.

11        Q.   Witness, let me ask you again.  Do you recognise what's depicted

12     in this photograph?

13        A.   In this place where the rock is, there used to be sand and soil,

14     and we were lined up on this embankment.  It was three or four

15     centimetres high.  Now you can see only the rock.  From the road, we had

16     to climb down 20, 30 metres.

17        Q.   If I could show you the following page, please.

18             Do you recognise what you see in this photograph?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And was the water, at the time that you were taken for execution,

21     was it similar to what's depicted here in this photograph ?

22        A.   No.  The level of the water was much higher than here, and this

23     tree that is felled halfway into the river, it wasn't there at the time.

24     You can see on the picture that the branches had been cut off and it had

25     gone down the river.

Page 2720

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right, thank you.

 2             I'd like to show the witness, finally, P448.  If we could just

 3     blow it up a little bit towards the center of the photograph, that would

 4     be very helpful.  All right.

 5        Q.   Witness, do you recognise what you see here?

 6        A.   Yes, that's my wound.

 7        Q.   And can you tell the Trial Chamber where the entry and exit

 8     wounds are shown in this photograph?

 9        A.   I can see only the exit wound here from this side.  The entry

10     wound is from the back.

11        Q.   Okay.  And the exit wound is indicated on which side of your

12     body?  Is it the front or the back of your body?

13        A.   On the front, on the front part of the body on the left.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to have the witness mark this

15     photograph as well, please.

16        Q.   And if you could just circle the exit wound, as you see it on the

17     screen.

18        A.   The entry wound should be here.  [Marks]

19        Q.   I'm sorry, in the translation we've heard you've marked the entry

20     wound.  Is it the entry or the exit wound?

21        A.   This, what I can see here, is the exit wound.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you for clarifying that.

23             Yes, I'd like to tender this exhibit as well, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it will be received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4 [indiscernible].

Page 2721

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please repeat the number, because it is

 2     not recorded.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P464.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Vanderpuye, carry on, please.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Witness, if you're able, can you please describe to the

 8     Trial Chamber what those few moments were like as you were led down to

 9     the river, taken to the execution site and shot, as we can see in this

10     particular photograph?

11        A.   When they removed us from that warehouse and put us on the buses,

12     we thought we were going to a camp or something.  I still had some hope.

13     However, when the bus stopped shortly, they told us to get out and lined

14     us up on the asphalt next to the metal fender railing separating us from

15     the river, and they told us -- one of these soldiers told us to go down

16     the river, and they kept hurrying us up as we were descending those 20 or

17     30 metres, we were standing in a line and the shooting suddenly started.

18     I heard -- I saw a man next to me on my right who was bleeding.  Then I

19     felt a bullet hit me, and after a while I just threw myself into the

20     water.  In the water, I grabbed on to a rock.  I didn't know if I was

21     wounded or not.  I just felt the jerk.  I grabbed on to that rock into

22     the river and started dragging myself towards the middle of the river.  I

23     shifted slowly, and of course the water started to carry me.  But then I

24     hit my head on a rock, and as I did, I flipped on my back.  Above me,

25     there were volleys of gun-fire, and I just heard someone shouting, That

Page 2722

 1     one is slipping away.  So I went down the river some 200 metres, and when

 2     I realised they couldn't follow me anymore, I swam to the other bank of

 3     the Jadar River and went to the nearby woods, where there was a water

 4     reservoir.  There, I tore up my shirt.  The wound was huge, I was

 5     bleeding.  I don't know how many hours I was there.  I didn't know what

 6     to expect, whether someone else from that group would perhaps be coming

 7     to join me.  And then I went up a hill.  I found a stick to rely on, and

 8     eventually I reached a village.  And then I felt faint, lost

 9     consciousness.  I then went back to that village, Zladar [phoen], where I

10     spent the night.  The next day, when I heard shooting, I set out towards

11     Mali Udrc the village of Rasa [phoen], going along a macadam road.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Witness.

13             Mr. President, that concludes my direct examination.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             Witness, as you know, Mr. Tolimir has the right to put some

16     questions to you.

17             Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             I greet everyone in the courtroom and the witness.  Peace unto

20     your home, and may this trial be completed in keeping with God's will.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, let us try to avoid overlapping so that

23     the record can show accurately everything that you and I say.

24        A.   All right, thank you.

25        Q.   You said that you appeared in the Popovic case, and on the

Page 2723

 1     transcript page 3208 in Popovic, lines 2 through 5, there is a reference

 2     to the reason why you moved from Bratunac to Srebrenica.  You say for

 3     safety reasons.  You say also:

 4             "The town had fallen, there was no communication between

 5     Srebrenica and Bratunac, you couldn't travel from one place to another."

 6             If I quoted you correctly, I can't understand.  What were the

 7     reasons for that blockade?

 8        A.   The Bosnian Muslim population had already been evacuated from the

 9     town.  I had lived in the town, and the buses no longer went to

10     Srebrenica, so I decided to go where it would be safer.

11        Q.   All right, thank you.  Do you know anything about the military

12     activities that took place from Srebrenica against the environs, and did

13     you participate in them?

14        A.   What environs?

15        Q.   From the town of Srebrenica, against Bratunac and other populated

16     areas, populated not by Muslims.

17        A.   I don't know anything about it.  I was not part of the military.

18     I was a simple member of the Territorial Defence.

19        Q.   Since you say you were a member of the Territorial Defence in

20     Srebrenica, my question is:  As a member of the Territorial Defence, what

21     were your duties?

22        A.   I stood guard at Likari and Zalazi.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Until when were you a member of the army, since you

24     were standing guard?

25        A.   Until Morillon came to Srebrenica sometime in the end of January.

Page 2724

 1     I wouldn't know the exact date.

 2        Q.   Until 1993, you were a member of the BH Army; is that so?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You say you then transferred to the UNPROFOR.  Did you have

 5     employment with the UNPROFOR, and what kind of job?

 6        A.   No, not then.  I transferred to the UNPROFOR in the last three

 7     months before the fall of Srebrenica.  After I stopped being a member of

 8     the TO, I worked as a courier in the Civilian Protection within the

 9     municipality.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were working as a courier with the

11     Civilian Protection, could the witness be shown P454.  It's a document

12     proclaiming general mobilisation in the municipality of Srebrenica.

13             We can see the document.  Could we have it enlarged, please.

14             Do you see this document?  Can you read what's in it?  Were you

15     familiar with it?

16        A.   No, I was not familiar with it.  While the president of the

17     municipality was Hajrudin Avdic, I was not a courier, so I know nothing

18     about this document.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any responsibilities under this document

20     towards the municipality which proclaimed mobilisation?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Where were you when this proclamation of mobilisation was issued?

23        A.   I can't answer, because I don't see the date or the year.

24        Q.   It says:

25             "In order to defend the freedom, independence," et cetera,

Page 2725

 1     "pursuant to the order of the Presidency of the Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, I hereby proclaim general mobilisation in

 3     Srebrenica."

 4             This is a document given us by the Prosecution, just so that you

 5     don't think it's our document.  I'm just asking you, where were you at

 6     the time of the general mobilisation?

 7        A.   If you mean the beginning of the war as 1993, then I was with the

 8     Territorial Defence, if it's a document from 1993.

 9        Q.   No, it's from 1992.  In which sector did you work in the

10     municipality, and from when?

11        A.   Civilian Protection, 1994 and 1995, sometime from mid-1993 to

12     1995.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were part of a civilian protection unit and

14     this document mobilises also the Civilian Protection, can you tell us,

15     what were your responsibilities in the municipality in the sector with

16     which you worked in 1994 and 1995?

17        A.   You mean while this document was in force or later?

18        Q.   Once a document like this is issued, it is enforced throughout

19     the war.  It's not enforced for just one day.  I just asked you in which

20     sector you worked, and what were your duties?

21        A.   I cannot answer this, because after the UNPROFOR arrived,

22     Srebrenica became a protected area.  Perhaps someone else can answer

23     this.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In the Popovic case, Popovic et al, you testified

25     that you were a courier.  Can you tell me, whose messages did you carry

Page 2726

 1     and to whom?

 2        A.   A courier for the Civilian Protection carries an invitation to

 3     someone, if someone needs to go to a different village, et cetera.

 4        Q.   Who was your commander?

 5        A.   The commander of Civilian Protection.

 6        Q.   His name?

 7        A.   Jusuf Halilovic.

 8        Q.   Until when did Jusuf Halilovic give you orders or assignments?

 9        A.   Until the fall of Srebrenica, as long as I worked as a courier.

10        Q.   What about when you worked for the UNPROFOR, who gave you

11     assignments?

12        A.   When I worked for the UNPROFOR, I was no longer working with the

13     Civilian Protection.

14        Q.   How could he then give you assignments until the fall of

15     Srebrenica if you were working for the UNPROFOR before the fall?

16        A.   As long as I was a courier, he gave me assignments, what to do.

17     When I worked for the UNPROFOR, I had nothing more to do with the

18     municipality.

19        Q.   On page 3208, lines 20 through 25 in your testimony in Popovic,

20     you described your employment with the Dutch Battalion.  Can you tell us

21     here, what kind of duties did you have in the Dutch Battalion?

22        A.   Cleaning, heating water for washing before lunch, preparation of

23     lunch, cleaning, cleaning of the bar, everything that had to do with

24     manual labour.

25        Q.   How did you find employment with the UNPROFOR?  Did they ask the

Page 2727

 1     municipality to send someone or did you find the job yourself?

 2        A.   The municipality handled the hiring.  It was one of the tasks of

 3     the municipality to designate who will do what.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you continue to be an employee of the

 5     municipality, although -- because you had only temporary work for three

 6     months?

 7        A.   Yes, temporary.

 8        Q.   After that temporary work, did you resume your work in the

 9     municipality?

10        A.   Well, we couldn't work there because Srebrenica had fallen.

11        Q.   I want you to answer.  What happened with your employment in the

12     municipality while you were working for the Dutch Battalion?  Was it on

13     hold?  What was your status with the Civilian Protection in the

14     municipality?

15        A.   My contract was simply suspended, terminated, and I started to

16     work down there.

17        Q.   In the Popovic case, you said that your last day with the

18     Dutch Battalion was 8 July, when they told you not to come anymore

19     because the situation had deteriorated.  It's page 3209, lines 15 and 16

20     in the Popovic transcript.  Can you explain that here?  How did this

21     termination occur?

22        A.   That's true.  In the last few days, on the 7th already, the

23     shelling had started from beyond Srebrenica and Causi.  The shells were

24     falling near the open-pit mine in Kazani, and they were feeling that

25     something bad was going to happen and told me not to come anymore.

Page 2728

 1        Q.   Did the Dutch Battalion keep a list of you who were working with

 2     the battalion, and did they fire you all or did they keep some?

 3        A.   In the Srebrenica base, everyone was dismissed.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In the summary of your testimony in the Popovic case,

 5     the Prosecutor said that on the 11th of July, 1995, you were forced to

 6     separate from your family because of the advancement of Serb forces, who

 7     on that date captured half of the town from the Bojna Hill onwards.  Is

 8     that consistent with the military situation there at the time, and what

 9     can you tell us about it?

10        A.   That's true, the Serbs were attacking from the direction of

11     Bibici [phoen] and the entire town of Petrici [phoen], and half of the

12     town had already moved to the lower half of the town near the post office

13     and the UNPROFOR.

14        Q.   How did your family then reach Potocari if the Serb Army was

15     already in town and had captured half the town?

16        A.   They were not precisely in the town.  They were all around town,

17     on Bojna Hill and near the school.

18        Q.   But you say here that they had captured half of the town,

19     starting with Bojna Hill?

20        A.   From that hill, you can see all of the town.

21        Q.   Where did your family go, to Potocari or to try a breakthrough?

22        A.   When we separated on the 11th, they stayed back at the apartment,

23     and the shelling had already started, and I set out towards Slatina

24     village, so that it was only later, with other people, that they headed

25     for Potocari.

Page 2729

 1        Q.   Did you leave alone from your family or someone else as well?

 2        A.   Also my brother, a couple of relatives and friends.

 3        Q.   In the Popovic case, on page 3021, lines 3 to 5, the Prosecutor

 4     said, summarising your evidence, I quote:

 5             "Among the people who were leading the group, there was the

 6     president of the municipality, members of the civilian authorities, and

 7     some others who had been in Srebrenica during the war, including some

 8     chiefs of sectors, such as secretariats, for instance."

 9             Did I quote this correctly?

10        A.   Yes, they were in the municipality, and once it was decided to go

11     to Slatina village, they set out, and all the other men followed them.

12        Q.   In which part of the column was the president of municipality and

13     the municipal officials of Srebrenica?

14        A.   These columns were long.  I don't know in which part of the

15     column they were, and the columns broke often.

16        Q.   In which part was the military leadership of the column?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   Do you know at all in which part of the column were the military

19     and civilian officials of Srebrenica?

20        A.   I don't know, because already on the 11th at night, the column

21     was broken at Buljim.  One part of the column went ahead, and I stayed at

22     Buljim, so I could no longer know where the people ahead were.  And while

23     it was happening, other people were coming in from behind, and the column

24     lengthened.

25        Q.   Since you were working as a courier in the municipality, did you

Page 2730

 1     know the personnel of the municipal authorities?

 2        A.   I knew some people, not all.

 3        Q.   Can you just tell us which officials were in the column which was

 4     going from Buljim towards Tuzla, people you knew?

 5        A.   All those who had been in Srebrenica, apart from those who stayed

 6     at the base, such as vice-president of the municipality.  I don't know

 7     the name.  The rest of them went ahead.

 8        Q.   Can you at least give us some names, at least, the ones that you

 9     remember that went?

10        A.   There was the chief, Adem, Suljo, Djemo Becirovic, all those who

11     worked in the municipality.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us if your previous boss for

13     Civilian Affairs who worked in the municipality was also there?

14        A.   His name was Jusuf Halilovic, but I didn't see him.  But I think

15     that he was there.

16        Q.   On page 23201, lines 14 and 15 in the transcript from the Popovic

17     case, the Prosecutor said, I quote:

18             "The witness had a hand-grenade with him, intending to commit

19     suicide if he were captured."

20             This was in the summary.  My question is:  Where was the

21     hand-grenade when you were captured, and did you abandon that idea when

22     you saw everything that was happening and since you had found yourself in

23     the situation that you had found yourself in?

24        A.   Yes, it's true, I did have a hand-grenade.  I got it from an

25     acquaintance.  It was with me all the time.  When I was captured in

Page 2731

 1     Konjevic Polje, they took the hand-grenade from my bag, along with all my

 2     documents and my personal items.

 3        Q.   And did you later say that this was not your bag in

 4     Konjevic Polje?

 5        A.   No, I said that it was mine.

 6        Q.   In the Popovic case, page 3290 and 3210, you describe certain

 7     events, and you say, I quote:

 8             "The armoured vehicle was going at the front, and the column of

 9     the people was walking behind the vehicle, at the place called Solutasa.

10     A shell was fired from the place called Caus Hill."

11             That's what it says in the transcript.

12        A.   The place is called Solutasa, and the shell was fired from the

13     Caus Hill.

14        Q.   Excellent.  This was then an error.  We correct that.  So:

15             "It was fired from Caus Hill, and it fell somewhere on the road,

16     and this is where the people stopped.  People fled to different houses

17     that happened to be nearby, and then later they used the communications

18     to get in touch with people.  Then we went to the drivers' practice area,

19     and then they told us that they couldn't guarantee our security anymore."

20             Did you say this for the transcript?

21        A.   Yes, it's correct.  There are some small errors.  I'm going to

22     correct that.

23             This happened on the 10th of July, in the afternoon, when intense

24     shelling began in the upper part of the town.  I came with my family to

25     the Potocari camp.  People began to arrive, so that the Dutch soldiers

Page 2732

 1     didn't know what to do.  They were not letting anybody in the base.  Two

 2     soldiers who knew me told me that I should follow them.  There was no

 3     combat vehicle that was in front, but there was an emergency medical

 4     ambulance that was driving ahead of us.  Then when the people who were at

 5     Caus noticed us, they shelled us, and the shell fell on the side of the

 6     road, so that we fled to nearby houses.

 7             Then we continued for another kilometre or two along the road,

 8     and then we came closer to Caus Hill, so then we went to the former

 9     driving school training-ground, where there was some container houses for

10     refugees.  And then they told us that we couldn't go back to the Potocari

11     camp.  We remained there.  I went to some acquaintances' homes that were

12     just below Caus Hill at Ostil [phoen], and then at 10.00 in the evening I

13     returned to the apartment where I lived.  When I entered the building, in

14     my flat, there were many people in the corridors, in the houses, in my

15     apartment.  We were all there.

16             And then the next day, on the 11th at about 2.30, we left

17     Srebrenica.

18        Q.   Can you please tell us how it came about that this armoured

19     vehicle, which you say was an ambulance, drove in front of you and where

20     was it exactly that you were going on the 10th?

21        A.   It was driving in front of us.  It was a vehicle of the

22     Dutch Battalion with Red Cross markings on it.

23        Q.   Yes, I understood that, because you said it was a combat vehicle,

24     so I just quoted what you said in the Popovic case.  And now you're

25     saying it was a Red Cross vehicle.  I accept that.  But just tell me, how

Page 2733

 1     did it actually turn out to be in front of you and drove in front of you

 2     four kilometres?

 3        A.   It's not that it just happened to be there.  They were not

 4     letting people go into the camp, into the base.  They didn't know what to

 5     do, and then they decided to have a Red Cross vehicle drive in front and

 6     for all the people to go behind it, away from Potocari, because that's

 7     where the main camp was.

 8        Q.   You tried to go to Potocari, not to get out of the encirclement;

 9     is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, that is correct.

11        Q.   And now that we're talking about this shell that you mentioned,

12     can you please tell us if anybody was killed by that shell, where it was,

13     and who was killed?

14        A.   No one was killed.  The shell fell in the field on the other side

15     of the river, on the other riverbank, and there was some homes nearby.

16     This was a Suboca [phoen] settlement.

17        Q.   While you were in Srebrenica and while you were working in the

18     Civilian Defence and UNPROFOR, did you hear or see UNPROFOR confiscate

19     weapons from anyone, confiscate weapons from homes, from members of the

20     B and H Army?

21        A.   I did hear of that, and there were such confiscations.  I didn't

22     see it, but I did hear of it.

23        Q.   Did you ever talk about this disarming with anyone from the

24     Dutch Battalion or not?

25        A.   No, I was just an employee, a physical labourer in the

Page 2734

 1     Dutch Battalion.  I wasn't negotiating with them.

 2        Q.   In the Popovic case, on page 3211, lines 14 to 19, you said the

 3     following, I quote:

 4             "Everybody waited to see what the people who were in power would

 5     do.  Something was expected, but nobody expected that it would be so bad.

 6     The following day, we were in front of the post office when a UN observer

 7     left the post office, and there was some contacts.  They talked with the

 8     Presidency, the government.  And then at about 2.00 or 3.00 in the

 9     afternoon, the decision was made to leave."

10             Thank you.  This is my quote, and my question would be as

11     follows:  Can you please tell us what day that was, which representative

12     of the UNPROFOR left the post office where the brigade command was, and

13     can you explain this situation that I have briefly read about, and your

14     comments about it?  Can you please comment on that and explain?  Thank

15     you.

16        A.   That was not the brigade command.  The international observers

17     were based in the post office.  They left the post office before we

18     decided to leave through the woods.

19        Q.   And can you please tell me this:  I asked you what day was this

20     when they left the post office, and when did these contacts begin with

21     the Presidency members, and were these members of the Srebrenica

22     leadership or the B and H government in Bosnia?

23        A.   No, I don't think these were contacts with the government.  These

24     were contacts with the Radio Ham operators in Srebrenica for us to leave

25     Srebrenica.  This was on the 11th, sometime around noon to 2.30.

Page 2735

 1        Q.   You said, I quote:

 2             "There were some contacts.  They talked with the Presidency, and

 3     at about 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon the decision was made to leave."

 4             I am just asking you to explain.  If the Radio Ham operators had

 5     contact with the Presidency, wouldn't it be logical for the Presidency in

 6     Sarajevo to contact Srebrenica government representatives?  Wouldn't that

 7     be logical?

 8        A.   I don't know that.  I don't know who got in touch with whom.  All

 9     I heard was conversations with people who were there in front of the post

10     office.  All I heard was just talk.

11        Q.   I'm just reading what you said in the transcript in the Popovic

12     case, and you are linking these conversations to the government in

13     Sarajevo; is that correct or not?

14        A.   No, no, it's not.

15        Q.   With which government and the Presidency were then contacts made,

16     like you said, "they talked with the Presidency, with the government, and

17     then at about 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon the decision was made to

18     leave"?  This is what you said.

19        A.   I don't know what the communication could have been with the

20     government.  And even if I had said it, and it's possible, these were

21     just conversations in front of the post office.  I really cannot give you

22     a specific answer to that, even though I already said that.  You would

23     need to ask one of those officials who were there.

24        Q.   Did you say this in Popovic on the basis of your knowledge or on

25     the basis of what you heard from someone about there having been contacts

Page 2736

 1     with the Presidency and the government, and then after that the decision

 2     was made to leave Srebrenica?

 3        A.   Yes, I heard that from other people who were around in front of

 4     the post office, and I said that.  I said that I had heard that.  I don't

 5     know that for a fact, no.

 6        Q.   And do you know for a fact, for example, who this UN observer was

 7     to leave the post office last?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And then can you please tell us whether the decision to leave

10     Srebrenica was made by the Presidency and the government in Sarajevo or

11     by the local Srebrenica leadership?  Because you're saying here that

12     after -- in the afternoon, the decision was made to leave.  Can you

13     please tell us now, who made this decision?

14        A.   The decision was made by the local municipal employees, because

15     we didn't have any choice any longer other than to leave, and that was

16     that decision.

17        Q.   This was the decision to leave.  That was the topic of that

18     segment.  And in the Popovic transcript, 3230, lines 16 to 19, you talk

19     about the way in which the decision was made to embark on the

20     breakthrough, and you say, I quote:

21             "Nobody made this decision.  Most of the people started to move

22     towards Slatina and Susnjari.  The plan was to attempt to break through

23     towards Tuzla.  That was the only thing."

24             Did I quote you correctly?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2737

 1        Q.   Did you say here:

 2             "The plan was -- I am just saying to attempt to break through

 3     towards Tuzla, and that was the only --"

 4        A.   Yes, we had two options, break through towards Zepa or break

 5     through towards Tuzla.

 6        Q.   And who was at the head of the column that had started to move

 7     towards Zepa or towards Tuzla?

 8        A.   I already answered that question, but I can do it again.  It was

 9     all the people who were leaving Srebrenica, who were working in the

10     municipality, the municipal leaders, people who were civilians, and all

11     the other people who were afraid to go to Potocari.

12        Q.   Thank you.  It's clear who was in the column attempting the

13     breakthrough, but who was at the head of it, who was organising the

14     moving of the column, the passage of the column?  Was it organised, how

15     was it organised?  What can you tell us here about that?

16        A.   I can't really say anything about that, because in my opinion it

17     was not organised.  We just had to leave.  It was a necessary evil.  We

18     had to attempt the breakthrough towards Tuzla.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not asking you this because of me.  We have a lot

20     of witnesses here that we're hearing.  But can you please explain, you,

21     as a witness -- can you explain to the Trial Chamber how do you explain

22     what you said that nobody made this decision, like you just said, and the

23     column was organised?  We heard different testimonies here saying that

24     there was an elite unit under the command of Ejub Ganic at the head of

25     this column, so somebody must have made the decision for this column to

Page 2738

 1     move.

 2        A.   It was a decision of Ejub Ganic?  This is something that I don't

 3     know.

 4        Q.   Elite unit under the command of Ejub Ganic at the rear of the

 5     column.

 6        A.   Not Ejub Ganic, but Ejub Golic.  That's the name.

 7        Q.   All right.  But at least you know that he was at the rear of the

 8     column, so how can you say that it was a spontaneous thing that this

 9     mountain battalion was at the rear of the column?

10        A.   I can explain that.  He was the one to arrive last.

11        Q.   Thank you, thank you.

12        A.   That is correct, he was the last to arrive at Buljim.  I stayed

13     at Buljim until 12.00 in the morning.  When he saw how many people were

14     left, he returned with a group of his in order to secure the passage for

15     the people who had remained behind there without weapons.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             And now can we please look at Exhibit P407, and can we look at

18     page 2 in the e-court, paragraph 5.  This is your statement that you gave

19     as a witness to this Prosecution.  Thank you.

20             I misstated the number.  It's P457.  That's the correct number,

21     457.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this will not be broadcast outside the

23     courtroom.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 2 now, please,

25     paragraph 5.

Page 2739

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   We can see both 5 in English and the B/C/S, and it says:

 3             "Around midnight, I didn't feel very well.  I was very sleepy and

 4     extremely tired.  I don't know exactly what happened, whether I lost

 5     consciousness or I fell asleep, but when I was conscious again it was

 6     2.30 in the morning and I was alone."

 7             And then immediately after that, you say:

 8             "I was in a grain field, and I knew this region rather well.  I

 9     saw the Jadar River, but because I was not feeling very well and felt

10     very confused, I didn't dare to cross the river.  I started walking along

11     the river, and I came to an asphalt road.  There was nobody around.  I

12     decided to go back to the grain field, and I sat down to have some rest.

13     I tried to roll a cigarette, but I wasn't able to make it.  My fingers

14     were completely stiff.  I tried again and wasn't able to make it.  I

15     realised then that I was really in bad shape.  This lasted a rather long

16     time, and around 5.00 in the morning I heard some sounds."

17             Thank you, closed quote.

18             Is this correct, what is stated in your statement that you gave

19     to the Prosecution?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.

21        Q.   So how can you explain this situation in your words, in your own

22     words now, because this does not correspond to the situation you were

23     describing with the column, and Golic, and so on and so forth; so how did

24     this change come about at 5.00 in the morning when you were alone?

25        A.   There's no change.  On the 11th of July, Srebrenica fell.  We

Page 2740

 1     left at half past 2.00.  In the night between the 12th and the 13th, when

 2     I had left Buljim around 12.00, I managed to reach Kamenica, and then we

 3     descended downhill and emerged at Burnice village.  It was on the 12th,

 4     around 1.00 at night.  I felt exhausted.  I lost consciousness, and I

 5     don't know where I went, until in the small hours of the 13th I found

 6     myself in Konjevic Polje.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I asked you because that's the way the statement was

 8     taken.  It seems that you found yourself suddenly out of nowhere, but it

 9     was actually on the second day?

10        A.   It was on the second day.  It was the morning of the 13th, just

11     before I was captured.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you now show page 5 in Serbian,

13     paragraph 3.  In fact, paragraph 4.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you see this paragraph 4?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You say here, I quote:

18             "After a while, a young man came in, around 18 years old.  He was

19     wearing a blue uniform, consisting of a shirt with short sleeves, shorts,

20     boots, and a beret.  He had a pistol.  He said, 'Why did you order them

21     to undress?  They should go for an exchange together with other

22     prisoners.'  One group had allegedly surrendered, around 1.000 of them.

23     Then one of the men present said, 'These people are not going for any

24     exchange.  You know very well whom I buried 45 days ago.'  He also added

25     something that made me think he's intending to kill us.  The young man in

Page 2741

 1     the blue uniform replied, 'If somebody's to kill them, then it's me.  You

 2     know very well whom I buried 15 days ago.'  Both of them left, and after

 3     a short while a uniformed man came in, who told us to get dressed again."

 4             Did these young men want to kill you and make the decision to

 5     kill you for these reasons they alluded to?

 6        A.   Yes, I had seen that young man twice before that, in the shed,

 7     outside the school, and this passage here refers to the scene in the

 8     warehouse a while before we got onto the bus.

 9        Q.   Do you think that the two of them were deciding about your life

10     or death?

11        A.   I don't know that.

12        Q.   From your story where the two of them are talking, it appears

13     that they wanted to revenge -- to take revenge on you for some personal

14     reasons?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   Later on, you say, and we heard that in the Prosecutor's summary

17     and in examination-in-chief, how you came to the river, how you survived,

18     and how you moved on to Nezuk.  Can you explain when you arrived at Nezuk

19     and how many of you came to Nezuk?

20        A.   We arrived at Nezuk on the 16th.  I don't know the exact number

21     of our group, but after I was wounded, for one whole day and one whole

22     night I was alone.  On the 14th, as I emerged to Mali Udrc, a group

23     joined me.  I was wounded.  They were looking at me from a distance,

24     thinking I was a Serb, and I was looking at them, and they seemed like

25     our own people.  They were exhausted.  They motioned me to join them, and

Page 2742

 1     when they approached, I already recognised two among the group.  They

 2     were watching me.  I was very exhausted.  They gave me a little water,

 3     and they told me, Come with us.  We'll help you.  So we came to

 4     Veliki Udrc, took a short rest, and started descending towards

 5     Drinjaca River, when part of the column joined us, around 40 or 50

 6     people.  A work colleague of mine was in that group.  So they followed me

 7     all the way to Nezuk.

 8        Q.   How many days did you travel from Udrc to Nezuk?

 9        A.   The 14th and the 15th, and we reached Nezuk on the 16th.  That's

10     three days.

11        Q.   Did you have any losses during that journey from Udrc to Nezuk?

12        A.   I don't know that, I can't say, because I was at the tail.  I was

13     wounded, and I just moved along.  A man who knew the road told me where

14     to go because I could only go very slowly, so all I could see were the

15     two or three men ahead of me.

16        Q.   Do you know how this part of the column of 40 or 50 men saved

17     themselves when they reached you at Udrc, what kind of trials they went

18     through?

19        A.   I didn't ask anyone about everything they went through.  There

20     were people who joined us seven days later.  I can't tell you.  I didn't

21     discuss it.

22        Q.   In your statement, you talk about the first ambush, the first

23     time you were shot at in the valley of some river.  Can you describe

24     that?  You say you suffered heavy losses there.  Can you remember that?

25        A.   Not in the valley of the river.  As I let the water carry me,

Page 2743

 1     they were firing from automatic weapons at me.  I know nothing else.

 2        Q.   So there were 15 of you by the bank of the river who were shot

 3     at?

 4        A.   Sixteen.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And you don't know about anyone

 6     else.  Thank you, Witness.

 7             Thank you, Witness, for answering the questions I asked.  Thank

 8     you for clarifying some elements of your statement.  I wish you a safe

 9     journey.  God bless you.

10             Mr. President, I've completed my cross-examination.  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your specific and

12     good questions.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

14             Mr. Tolimir, you've used two documents, one was the OTP

15     statement, P457.  Are you tendering it?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not necessarily the statement, but

17     I'd like to tender the second document I used.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The other document was the general mobilisation

19     order, P454.  Could we have that on the screen again.

20             Is there only this one page or are there other pages of this

21     document?

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you could help us.  We would like to know the

Page 2744

 1     date of this document.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I thought you might.  We actually don't have the

 3     date.  I can tell you that we'll try to ascertain what it is.  This was

 4     received among some other documents from the RS commission which was

 5     relatively recently formed, and I'll look into it and see if we can

 6     establish a date for it.  But we just don't have one available at this

 7     time.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 9             The document P454 will be received as an exhibit.

10             Judge Nyambe has a question related to this document.

11             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.  There is a date, 27th May

12     2004, indicated on this document.  What does that date say?

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The date May 27, 2004?  I believe that that is

14     the date about which the document was prepared or transferred for us to

15     receive.  My understanding is that the actual date of the document itself

16     is not reflected in the stamp.  It's a document that's older than that,

17     but I just have no way of ascertaining it at the moment.  I will make an

18     effort to do that.  I understand that it was a study that was prepared in

19     order to evaluate the circumstances surrounding the events in Srebrenica

20     through the first half of July 1995, but apparently we received the

21     document, I understand, on the 29th of May, 2004.  So it appears that

22     that was the date that it was prepared and sent over to the Office of the

23     Prosecutor.  So I will try to get back to the Court on this in relatively

24     short order, but I think it requires a little bit of digging.

25             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

Page 2745

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At this stage of 2004, it's part of the stamp, we

 2     see on the original version in B/C/S.

 3             Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President, I don't.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             Sir, this concludes the questioning for you.  Thank you very much

 7     that you were able to come to The Hague again and to assist us.  We wish

 8     you all the best for your future, for the safe journey back to your home

 9     and your normal activities.  The Court Officer will assist you.  Please

10     wait for leaving the room until we rise.  Thank you very much again.

11             We adjourn now and resume five minutes past 11.00, and have our

12     first break.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, Mr. Thayer.

17             I think the next witness is ready.

18             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President.  I believe he is.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  Please wait a moment while

22     the windows will be opened.

23             Once again, good morning, sir.

24             Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is

25     shown to you now.

Page 2746

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  PW-033

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

 6             I suppose it's not the first time that you are testifying here at

 7     the Tribunal.  You know the procedure, and you know that there are

 8     protective measures in place for you, face and voice distortion and a

 9     pseudonym.

10             I would like to remind both parties to switch off the microphones

11     when the witness is providing answers.

12             Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             Good morning, again, to you and Your Honours.  Good morning,

15     General Tolimir, Mr. Gajic.  Good morning, everyone.

16                           Examination by Mr. Thayer:

17        Q.   Good morning, sir.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   The first thing I'd like to do, Witness, is show you a document

20     on your screen.  The last time, we did this the old-fashioned way with a

21     piece of paper.  You'll see a document appear hopefully in a moment, and

22     I would just ask you if you confirm that you see your name on the screen

23     underneath the pseudonym "PW-33."  And that's P437.

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender P437,

Page 2747

 1     the pseudonym sheet, at this time.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

 3             MR. THAYER:

 4        Q.   Witness, do you recall testifying over the course of four days in

 5     this building in November of 2006?

 6        A.   Yes, sir.

 7        Q.   And last week, did you listen to all 11 and some hours of that

 8     testimony?

 9        A.   Yes, sir.

10        Q.   And can you attest before this Trial Chamber, sir, that the

11     testimony which you listened to accurately reflects what you said in the

12     last trial?

13        A.   Yes, with one small exception.  There was a question relating to

14     the Dutch authorities, and I replied that, in fact, I meant this

15     institution, so that all my answers referring to the Dutch authorities

16     and references to other names, as I specified in one of my answers, I

17     meant to mean that I was giving statements for this institution here.

18     All my answers mentioning Dutch authorities were meant to refer to this

19     institution.  That's all.  All the rest reflects what I believe my

20     answers should be.

21        Q.   And just to clarify that a bit, sir, when you say "Dutch

22     authorities," are you referring to questions that you were asked which

23     referenced the NIOD, N-I-O-D, report?

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25        Q.   Okay.  Sir, with that clarification in mind, can you further

Page 2748

 1     attest that if you were asked the same questions today which you were

 2     asked during the last trial in November 2006, that your answers would be

 3     the same?

 4        A.   Yes, sir, you can ask the same questions and I will give the same

 5     answers.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution at this time tenders

 7     P00435 under seal, and P436, the Popovic testimony, the public version,

 8     being the latter exhibit.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received, the first one under seal.

10             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, at this time I would like to read the

11     Rule 92 ter summary for this witness.  We have distributed it to the

12     parties and the booth.  I apologise in advance.  It's a little on the

13     longer side.  We had four days of testimony to try to condense, and given

14     this witness's role, as I think you'll see during the course of his

15     testimony, and the depth of his knowledge, I've tried to reduce it as

16     much as I can.  But it still came out a little longer than what we've

17     been used to.

18             Prior to the war, the witness was a Ham Radio enthusiast, earned

19     a B-category Ham Radio classification, and went to various competitions.

20     During his JNA service, he was trained as a radio telegraphist and worked

21     in a radio centre, where his main duties were to ensure the connections

22     for radio, teleprinter, and telegraphic connection.  In the early part of

23     the war, the witness was a member of a unit that dealt primarily with

24     protecting the civilian population from air raids.  He then became

25     involved in intercepting aircraft communications and later set up an

Page 2749

 1     intercepting centre for his local army brigade.  In the fall of 1993, the

 2     witness helped set up the northern location's interception site and was a

 3     member of the platoon based there until the end of the war.  The witness

 4     identified the location of that site on a map.

 5             The witness's unit worked 10-day shifts at the site.  He

 6     identified and discussed a list of ABiH personnel who worked at the

 7     northern site and the level of their amateur radio classification, if

 8     any.  At the northern location, there was also a unit from the army's

 9     21st Division and a MUP unit.  The witness described the layout of the

10     site, where the three units were located within the building, and was

11     shown a sketch he drew of the layout.  As far as the witness knows, there

12     was no sharing of material between his unit and the 21st Division

13     operators at the site, and the two units separately sent their reports to

14     the 2nd Corps.  His unit had an order to share materials with the MUP

15     operators at the site, and the MUP operators gave the army cryptographer

16     reports to send through as part of the army reports.

17             The witness's unit listened mostly to the area of the

18     Drina Corps, and he was familiar with the names of its brigades, as well

19     as with the Main Staff, and had a map that plotted the axes and

20     frequencies of the VRS radio-relay sets.  He also discussed a list of VRS

21     code-names.  The last order his unit received to move the antennas was on

22     8 June 1995, and instructed them to direct the antennas towards Zvornik,

23     Vlasenica, and the River Drina.

24             The witness explained the procedure for intercepting, recording,

25     transcribing and transmitting intercept conversations as follows:  His

Page 2750

 1     unit would receive an order, which would include information such as

 2     which axis, azimuth, direction, sector, frequency or participants to

 3     monitor.  His unit would turn the antennas in the appropriate direction

 4     and begin searching for the frequencies and then the participants.  When

 5     they located a conversation they wanted to record, they depressed the

 6     pause button on the recorder and listened to the conversation with

 7     headphones on, noting the time, frequency and channel on a piece of

 8     paper.

 9             His unit had four sets of recorders and scanners and four

10     corresponding note-books.  After recording the conversation, the

11     operators then began to transcribe the conversation.  After recording the

12     conversation, the operators then began to transcribe it.  They would

13     first transfer the time, frequency, and channel information from the

14     piece of paper into the note-book, then throw the piece of paper away.

15     They would leave some room at the top for the participants' identity, if

16     that were not known when the operator began transcribing the

17     conversation, and they would fill in the participants' names later if

18     they learned them as they were playing the recording.  If they did not,

19     they marked the participants as X, Y, or Z.  They then continued to

20     transcribe the conversation by playing back the tape and transcribing

21     three to five words or as much as they could remember hearing, then

22     rewound the tape again to be sure, then continued with the next few

23     words, and so on.  Even though the operators had very trained ears,

24     sometimes after listening to a portion of a conversation up to 10 times,

25     with everyone gathered around, they still could not understand a word, so

Page 2751

 1     they would put dots in its place.

 2             Once the transcript was finished, the operator took the note-book

 3     to the KZ or encryption room, where the cryptographer typed up the

 4     handwritten transcript into a computer, encrypted it, and sent it by

 5     modem to the command.  As far as the witness knows, the date was

 6     automatically entered by the computer in the heading of each report.  The

 7     note-book was considered a draft, and the print-out the finished product

 8     and official document.  The witness identified in photographs the various

 9     pieces of equipment used during this process.

10             On the average, for a group of regular conversations, none of

11     which was urgent, it would take up to an hour from interception of a

12     conversation to the transmission of the intercept report to the command.

13     A single conversation would take about 20 minutes to half an hour.  If

14     there were no urgency, the regular daily reports would be sent out

15     between 1900 and 2100 hours.  When combat operations were underway, the

16     intercept reports had to be sent to his command as soon as possible.

17             The witness reviewed an intercept he transcribed of a

18     conversation on 14 July 1995 at 2102 hours and identified his handwriting

19     without any doubt.  He then explained the process by which he transcribed

20     this particular conversation and made edits to his transcript as he

21     listened and re-listened to the recording.  He also explained various

22     notations made within the note-book containing this intercept.

23             He stored the completed note-books in a safe and turned them and

24     full tapes over to his command, and does not know what happened to them

25     after that.

Page 2752

 1             Now, with the usher's assistance, I would like to hand an exhibit

 2     up to the witness.  Actually, two exhibits, just to save a little bit of

 3     time.

 4        Q.   Sir, you've been handed a plastic booklet containing some

 5     documents.  You can ignore the documents in English.  I would turn your

 6     attention to the two tabs, blue stickies number 1 and 2.  Can you tell

 7     the Trial Chamber what those documents are in that booklet?

 8        A.   These documents were copied from our working note-book, number 1.

 9     Let me just look at number 2.  That's number 2.  So first there is the

10     handwritten text, and number 2 is one copy of our report from the

11     computer.

12        Q.   Now, I would just ask you to turn back to the handwritten

13     transcript that you have there in the booklet, back to the plastic

14     booklet, sir, you were just looking at.  If you could look at tab 1, the

15     handwritten transcript you just described to us.  Can you tell the

16     Trial Chamber what that transcript is?  What is that, what is it?

17        A.   It is an intercept at the location where I worked, and this is my

18     handwriting, which means that I noted down this intercept.  The text is

19     self-explanatory as to the participants in the conversation, how the

20     conversation proceeded, and how we derived some information from it.

21        Q.   And what is the time on that -- on your handwritten version, sir,

22     that that conversation occurred?

23        A.   The time is 2102 hours.

24        Q.   And if you could flip to tab 2, to the print-out, can you tell

25     the Trial Chamber what the date of the report is that transmitted the

Page 2753

 1     typed version of your handwritten intercept transcript?

 2        A.   In the heading, we see two markings, "Strictly Confidential" next

 3     to the date, "1514, 45," and you see the date, "14 July 1995."

 4        Q.   Okay, thank you, Witness.  Now, this process and this set of

 5     procedures that you testified about in Blagojevic, as well as in the

 6     Popovic case, for intercepting, recording, transcribing, and transmitting

 7     these intercepts, did you personally follow those procedures as a matter

 8     of regular practice when you were at the northern site?

 9        A.   Yes, sir, with one small exception.  There's just one more small

10     detail in question.  When you press pause, the device starts recording.

11     The rest of the procedure is described correctly.

12        Q.   Okay.  While we're on that topic, let's just follow up with a

13     couple of questions so we know exactly what you're talking about.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, may I interrupt you shortly.

15             We received a booklet with hard copies.  You referred to tab 1

16     and 2.  We don't have any little blue sticks with numbers, so that it

17     would be helpful if you could indicate the P number marked for

18     identification in the document list which is contained in this booklet.

19             MR. THAYER:  Will do, Mr. President.

20             In your booklet, Mr. President, there are no dividers.  It's

21     considered as one intercept, and the translation, the English version, is

22     P16.1.  And we're going to be spending some time in a moment looking at

23     those.  And the original handwritten version is P00016.2.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25             MR. THAYER:

Page 2754

 1        Q.   Now, back to the tape-recorder's pause button.  You testified

 2     about this to some degree previously, Witness.  Can you describe for the

 3     Trial Chamber exactly what you mean when you say that when you wanted to

 4     record a conversation, you had to press the pause button?  And it may be

 5     helpful to describe for the Trial Chamber in what position the pause

 6     button was most of the time.

 7        A.   Yes, sir.  The pause button was pressed while we were waiting to

 8     come across a conversation.  The record button, the play button, and the

 9     pause button were pressed simultaneously, and the device was on standby.

10     As soon as you pressed the pause button, the device starts recording

11     after a very, very short delay, and it would start recording very soon.

12        Q.   Okay.  So is it fair to describe it as follows:  The

13     tape-recorder basically stayed in a position such that the pause button,

14     if I can describe it this way, was in a down position, and if you wanted

15     to start recording, you had to push down on that pause button, which was

16     already in a depressed position, so that it would pop back up and begin

17     recording?

18        A.   From what I can remember, the buttons were thin and protruding,

19     so that you could also depress it from the bottom up, and this is what

20     they did.  With the pause button, we would push it up from below so that

21     it would jump up quickly, so that you could start recording as soon as

22     possible.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, Witness.  Back to the procedures that you

24     described in terms of taking these intercepts down and transmitting them.

25             In your experience at that northern site, did your colleagues

Page 2755

 1     follow those procedures as a matter of regular practice as well?

 2        A.   Yes, we did follow those procedures, with some slight, perhaps,

 3     individual deviations.  But generally speaking, the procedure was the

 4     same with everybody, but there were some tiny differences which are

 5     always there.

 6        Q.   Now, focusing your attention on the handwritten intercept that

 7     you have in your booklet and the print-out that was created from it, can

 8     you give the Trial Chamber, sir, an estimate -- I know it's going back a

 9     ways, so I'm not going to ask you for a specific time-period, but can you

10     give the Trial Chamber an estimate, based on your experience, of how soon

11     after that conversation was picked up by your equipment did you begin

12     transcribing that conversation?

13        A.   From the time the conversation took place up to the time it was

14     transcribed, an hour would go by, approximately, probably because there

15     was some other conversations underway so we were not able to transcribe

16     it right away.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, focusing on the print-out, can you give the

18     Trial Chamber some idea of how long it took to convert your handwritten

19     transcript into the print-out so that it could be sent out?  And, again,

20     I'm not going to demand a specific time-period, but if you can tell the

21     Trial Chamber, was it hours, was it days?  How long did it take?

22        A.   After waiting for the transcription, transcribing it from the

23     audio to the written version, then the text would be typed into the

24     computer, which is what you're asking about.  As far as an average

25     conversation was concerned, to transfer it from the note-book to the

Page 2756

 1     computer, it wouldn't take more than 20 minutes.

 2        Q.   And can you give the Trial Chamber an idea of when that was done,

 3     in terms of when the conversation was actually picked up by your

 4     equipment?  We understand that it might have taken 20 minutes to create

 5     the transcript, but in relation to when you took the conversation off the

 6     air, as it were, can you give the Trial Chamber how long it would have --

 7     it took to get the print-out completed and then sent to your command?

 8        A.   After midnight, I think, two to two and a half hours.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, Witness.  Now, if you would kindly put the

10     booklet down, I want to turn your attention to the other exhibit which

11     you were handed a moment ago.  And we're going to look at that both in

12     the original version but also in e-court, and that's P00425.  And if you

13     could tell the Trial Chamber what you have in your hands, please.

14        A.   I have the document in front of me, and it's easier to follow

15     when I have it in front of me.  This is a working note-book from my unit.

16     It was produced in my unit during the period that we are talking about.

17     The note-book shows that I wrote myself, in my own hand, "RRU 1," and it

18     was intended for the monitoring of radio-relay equipment with one

19     channel.  And the number "29-2" would indicate there were a number of

20     note-books marked with the number 29.  This note-book was also entered by

21     my own hand.

22             When we open the note-book, on the first page, report book

23     "RRU 1, ICR," is also text I wrote in my own hand.

24             Then we have the following page, where we see a text which states

25     "Strictly Confidential."

Page 2757

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot see the original on

 2     screen.

 3             MR. THAYER:

 4        Q.   What I'd like you to do is, at this point, watch the monitor, and

 5     I'd like to hand up that original note-book to the Trial Chamber, with

 6     the usher's assistance.

 7             And if we could just go back one page in e-court, please.  Okay.

 8             And we've got 00779618 on the screen, just for the record.

 9             You're identifying your handwriting, I believe, sir, "RRU 1" and

10     "29," is that correct, on the cover of this note-book?

11        A.   Yes, sir.

12             MR. THAYER:  And if we could go to the next page, please, in

13     e-court.  And this is 00779619.

14        Q.   Whose handwriting is this on this page, and what does it say?

15        A.   It states "Book of reports," "RRU 1," "ICR 100," dated "26 June

16     1995, until," and then we have dots.  This means that this is supposed to

17     be the report book of the one channel RRU 1 ICR device, meaning that

18     there was another note-book for a different piece of equipment.  The date

19     means that I had the book at my disposal at the time.  Actually, I made

20     it available, which means that it could start to begin to be used from

21     the 26th of June.  I had the intention of writing the other date as well,

22     but it was a slip, so it didn't get noted.  But the second date would

23     indicate up until what time-period this note-book would be used.

24             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Can we go to the next page in e-court, and

25     this will be the opposite side in the original note-book of the page we

Page 2758

 1     just looked at, the flip side.

 2        Q.   There's some notations in the upper right-hand corner of

 3     00779620.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what these notations are and

 4     who put them there?

 5        A.   This information was entered by the person in charge of supplies,

 6     who brought material to us at the facilities.  Sometime -- actually, at

 7     one time I actually saw him entering this into the note-books.  I assume

 8     that this is his handwriting.

 9        Q.   And so what does that date reflect, sir?

10        A.   The entered date is the date when the note-book was recorded in

11     the warehouse as a document, meaning that it was available to be taken to

12     the facility.

13        Q.   And just so that there is no question about this in the record,

14     Witness, I think in response to one of my earlier questions, when you

15     first looked at the original note-book in your hands, you identified it

16     as something that was produced in your unit, and I just want to clarify.

17     Did you mean that that note-book was manufactured in your unit or did you

18     mean something else?

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could the usher please give the note-book to

20     Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Gajic.  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, we did not produce the

22     note-books.  The contents in the note-books, different information

23     beginning from the one we covered, from the cover page, the text inside,

24     and other data, this is what I meant to say, and I apologise if there

25     were any problems because of what I said.

Page 2759

 1             MR. THAYER:  [B/C/S spoken], Witness.

 2             If we can go to the next page in e-court, and if we could rotate

 3     that, please.

 4        Q.   We see a number 1 at the upper right-hand corner of this page.

 5     Do you see that, sir, on your screen?

 6        A.   Yes, I do, sir.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  And if we can go to the next page, which

 8     would be the opposite side of the current page.

 9        Q.   Do we see any number there?

10        A.   No, sir, I don't see one.

11        Q.   So now if we go to the next page, do you see the number 2 in the

12     upper right-hand corner?

13        A.   Yes, sir.

14             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Now, if we could go to page 108 in e-court.

15     For the record, this is ERN 0077-9725.

16        Q.   There's some handwritten notation in the upper right-hand corner.

17     Can you tell the Trial Chamber what that says and what it means, please?

18        A.   I apologise.  Before I begin, can I just ask if I can read the

19     whole text?  Are we in private session?

20        Q.   Yes.  What you can do is read the text, but without identifying

21     any names that might be there.  And if you do see a name, if you can just

22     tell who it is, and we need to not broadcast this.

23        A.   Very well.  The heading, let me say that first, says that --

24     actually, when I wrote this, I received an order from the command to

25     count the number of pages in the book, to mark them properly, and then to

Page 2760

 1     say what the total number of pages is in the note-book.  This was done in

 2     order to prevent paper from being ripped or torn out of some note-books,

 3     so that we have a note of the total number of pages.

 4             The text says this note-book has 52 pages, platoon commander,

 5     lieutenant, and then there is my signature.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Okay.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, I was told that there was no

 8     notification by the Prosecution that this is a confidential document, so

 9     that we have to redact the transcript.  It was broadcast to the public

10     gallery, but as there is nobody there, there's no harm.

11             MR. THAYER:  We dodged that one, Mr. President.  Thank you.  I

12     apologise for that lapse, and I apologise to the witness.

13        Q.   Now, Witness, I just want to back up a second.

14             The -- and we may as well go into private session for this couple

15     of questions.  I was going to do this at the end, but may as well do it

16     now.

17             May we go into private session, Mr. President?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are going into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2761

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             MR. THAYER:

15        Q.   Now, we saw a moment ago, Witness, that the note-book pages --

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

17             MR. THAYER:

18        Q.   We saw a moment ago, Witness, when you were looking at the

19     note-book pages, that the upper right-hand corner of the pages was

20     numbered.  And if we look through the original of the whole note-book,

21     I think we'll all agree that you will see that each of the pages was

22     numbered through to the end.

23             And if I could ask to get the original note-book back from

24     Mr. Gajic, please, that would be helpful.  Thank you.

25             Would you please tell the Trial Chamber, Witness, who numbered

Page 2762

 1     those pages, and when were those pages numbered?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.  I put in those numbers and the text at the back,

 3     accompanied by my signature.  Also, the previous text on page 1 and the

 4     number of the note-book on the cover were entered at the same time on the

 5     date that appears on the front page.  All the markings were entered on

 6     that date that I just mentioned.

 7        Q.   And that would be on, I believe, the 21st of May, 1995.

 8             I beg your pardon.  If we could just have a look at the second

 9     page of PW-435 [sic] -- I beg your pardon, 425.

10             So we see a date here of the 26th of June, 1995.  Is that when

11     you numbered the pages, sir?

12        A.   Yes, that's the date when I entered the number on the cover and

13     the text that we're looking at, when I put in the page numbers and this

14     remark at the back with my signature.

15        Q.   And at that time, sir, had anything been recorded inside the

16     note-book?  Had any conversations been intercepted and recorded in the

17     note-book or was it empty at that time?

18        A.   I received blank note-books, and the note-book was blank when I

19     entered the data in it.  That was the condition in order to be able to

20     make the book available for use.

21             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we could go to page 88 in e-court, please.

22     And this will be the yellow sticky number 2 on the original version

23     before the Trial Chamber at the moment.

24        Q.   Do you see a page with the page number 43 in the upper right-hand

25     corner, sir?

Page 2763

 1        A.   Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   And we're now looking at the intercept with a time of 2102 hours.

 3     Do you see that, sir?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.

 5        Q.   Now, whose handwriting is that, sir?

 6        A.   It's my handwriting, sir.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we could go to the next page, and we should

 8     not broadcast the following pages, please.  If we could rotate --

 9     perfect.

10        Q.   Now, we don't see a page number here, and is that because, sir,

11     you only numbered the upper right-hand corner of a page within the

12     note-book?

13        A.   Yes, sir.  I think that that's what it says at the end, 52 pages.

14             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Now, if we go to the next page, please.

15        Q.   We see, in the upper right-hand corner, page number 44 written.

16     Do you see that, sir?

17        A.   Yes, sir.

18        Q.   And so that we can at least stay in open session, do you see a

19     set of two initials above the eight-digit number on this page?  And if

20     you do, whose initials are they, sir?

21        A.   Yes, sir, the initials on the left -- actually, the signature was

22     the encryption person, indicating that the conversation was transcribed

23     and entered into the report.  The initials on the right-hand side are my

24     initials.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now, I just want to keep your mind focused on that "44"

Page 2764

 1     there.

 2             And if we could have P00016.4 in e-court, please.  And the

 3     translation is P00016.3.  And we'll need to go to the next page of the

 4     English, please.  Okay, great.  Let's focus on the remark that's at the

 5     bottom of this print-out.

 6             First of all, can you explain what you are trying -- or what you

 7     were conveying here in this remark?  And, secondly, is there anything

 8     that has come to your attention about this remark that you'd like to

 9     clarify or correct for the Trial Chamber?

10        A.   This note is self-evidence -- is evidently a reference to a

11     mistake by the operator at Badem.  It says this page 44 was recorded like

12     it was the line for Jokic, which was not true.  On the original document,

13     it says "Jokic, point 44."  This was a mistake.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, first can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you

15     recall whether this remark was your remark or the cryptographer's remark?

16        A.   I wrote this remark in my own hand.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, what we see here is that the line -- the open line

18     that was inadvertently left open by the operator at Badem has been

19     identified as line 44, as if that's the number of the line or the channel

20     of communications at Badem.

21             Let's go back very briefly and look at page 88 of P00425.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, is there any problem by mentioning in

23     open session these words in your last question?

24             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.  We're okay for that.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 2765

 1             MR. THAYER:  Thank you.

 2             And if we could just turn to -- turn two more pages to the last

 3     page of this intercept, and this should not be broadcast for the last

 4     page.

 5        Q.   Now, we're back at this last page, where we see the page

 6     number 44 written, and if you would just, for the Trial Chamber, tie up

 7     what you were explaining in terms of not referring to the error at Badem

 8     of leaving the line open, but whether there was an actual error made in

 9     the print-out version that has to do with the page number.

10        A.   Yes, sir.

11        Q.   Could you just explain that for the Trial Chamber, sir?  What

12     exactly was the error that was made in the print-out?

13        A.   If we look at the text, at the top, in the right top corner, we

14     see line was open for Jokic, and there is a dot and then the number of

15     the page.  However, in retyping, this was connected and appeared as if 44

16     was the line for Jokic, the number of Jokic's line.  But here in the

17     original, you can see exactly what is what.  The end of the sentence,

18     full stop, and then the number of the page.

19             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Now, if we could go to page 109 of the

20     note-book, please.

21        Q.   In the upper left-hand corner, we see a notation, and if you

22     would just explain that for the Trial Chamber, please.  And for the

23     record, we're at 00779726.

24        A.   These designations could only be recorded by someone in the

25     warehouse.  We didn't do it this way.  We had a form for completing a

Page 2766

 1     page.  I suppose that it means the day when the note-book arrived at the

 2     warehouse.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And this is at the -- almost on the very last page of the

 4     note-book.  So at that point, was the note-book completed, sir, was it

 5     filled?

 6        A.   Yes, sir.  The note-book was handed over when the shifts changed.

 7     The officer from the command would, on that occasion, hand over the used

 8     note-books, the used audiotapes, et cetera.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Okay, Witness, I don't have any further questions

10     for you at this point.

11             Mr. President, we have a tender list, which the Registry has

12     compiled, giving the number of exhibits that either were admitted through

13     this witness or are being offered to assist the Trial Chamber in making

14     sense of -- in particular, of the Blagojevic transcript, and I can recite

15     for the record which these exhibits are.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That would be helpful.

17             MR. THAYER:  Very well, Mr. President.

18             The exhibits which were admitted through this witness in the

19     Popovic case are P00016.1, 16.2, 16.3, 16.4, and 16.5, P421 --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's not necessary to read out the whole

21     list, we have it, but just indicate from which number through which

22     number you would like to tender.

23             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Mr. President.  We'll have a couple of

24     gaps.  We have P421 to 423, 425 through 434, P438 and 439, and P440.  And

25     we have P424 as well.

Page 2767

 1             And, Mr. President, I also note that there were three exhibits

 2     which have been previously admitted, but that I would call to the

 3     Trial Chamber's attention to assist it in making sense of the Blagojevic

 4     transcript.  We had them on the original tender list.  I think they fell

 5     by the wayside, but I can very briefly just provide a couple citations

 6     for the Trial Chamber to assist it.

 7             P390 is an intercept note-book number 97, and we would offer

 8     pages 1 to 3.  Those were shown to the witness in Popovic.  Page 389 --

 9     I'm sorry, P389 is intercept note-book 91, and we would draw the

10     Trial Chamber's attention to page 2, which was also shown to the witness,

11     and that was at transcript page 4407 of the Popovic trial and 4408.  For

12     the prior exhibit, that was shown to the witness at transcript pages 4410

13     to 4411.  And P387, note-book 96, page 1 only was shown to the witness in

14     Popovic at transcript 4408.  I just draw that to the Trial Chamber's

15     attention to make sense of the Popovic transcript.

16             And that concludes my examination-in-chief, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

18             The latter three exhibits are already exhibits, as you mentioned.

19             There are seven documents.  They have not yet a B/C/S

20     translation -- or an English translation, sorry, so we will receive all

21     those you have mentioned, but only mark for identification P424, P425,

22     P426, P433, P438, P439, and P440.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think I made a mistake.  I was now told that

25     the three exhibits, P378, 389, 390, are not exhibits yet, but they will

Page 2768

 1     be assigned the numbers, and Madam Registrar will read it into the

 2     transcript.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             Pages 1 to 3 of Exhibit P390 is now Exhibit P465.  Page 2 of

 5     Exhibit P389 is now Exhibit P466.  Page 1 of P387 is now Exhibit P467.

 6     Thank you.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Sorry, Mr. President, if I misled the Trial Chamber.

 8     We were under the impression that they were admitted.  I'm glad that's

 9     resolved.  And we will liaise with the Registry when those English

10     translations become available.

11             I would note, for example, though, with respect to, for example,

12     P425, that is an entire booklet of intercepts, and we typically don't

13     translate the entire intercept booklet.  It's being offered for the

14     purposes for which we examined the witness and any other purpose the

15     parties deem relevant, but typically we haven't been translating the

16     entire note-books.  We certainly will if the Trial Chamber instructs us,

17     but they are numerous and they are lengthy, and many of those intercepts

18     will not be introduced in this trial.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, that is correct.  We received this note-book,

20     P425, as we have the original now in the trial.

21             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             MR. THAYER:  And consistent with the private session and

25     non-broadcasting, that should be placed under seal, Mr. President,

Page 2769

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be under seal.

 3             Mr. Tolimir, do you have cross-examination?  Before the break, we

 4     have still 10 minutes left, and you should start.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             Once again, I greet all those who have not been here since this

 7     morning.  I greet this witness, and wish that this trial be completed as

 8     God wills, not as I will.

 9             May I call up P434, and that is the statement of this witness.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which will not be broadcast.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we display page 1 in the native

12     language of the witness, and in English in a split screen.  Thank you, we

13     can see that now.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] My question is:  Witness, did you sign that

16     statement?  And if not, why not?

17        A.   First of all, good day to you, too.  I did sign the English

18     version.  I didn't sign the statement on the left because I was given the

19     statement in English.  The information I provided and the details I

20     provided I was told were written down in English.  Do I want to sign it?

21     I said, Yes.  And the document shown on the left was given to me later

22     just for my own review so that I know what the English text reflects.

23        Q.   Now, on the basis of what you just said, can I ask you whether

24     you know the English language, and how do you know what you signed?

25        A.   I do not speak English, but the interpreter told me everything

Page 2770

 1     that was written here, all the details provided here, last name, first

 2     name, et cetera, and the interpreter guarantees that what I said during

 3     the interview was recorded in English on the laptop.  That's how the

 4     interview was conducted.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us why you were not given to sign your own statement

 6     in your mother tongue, and you signed the statement in English on the

 7     12th of May, 1999?

 8        A.   Yes, it's a good question.  You see, I gave a statement in

 9     Bosnian.  Then that statement, as such, was read out to me.  Then the

10     team, consisting of the people indicated here, told me that they want to

11     translate this statement into English, and would I want to sign it.  I

12     said that I will sign my statement when it's translated into English from

13     Bosnian.

14        Q.   Do you stand by everything that is contained in this unsigned

15     statement in your mother tongue?  If you confirm that, then I can proceed

16     with my cross-examination.

17        A.   Well, if you allow me to read it --

18        Q.   All that I want to ask about, I will first read out to you, and

19     you will be able to say whether you did or did not say that.  The entire

20     statement is on eight pages, so you would need a lot of time to read it.

21        A.   Yes, sir.  You see, on the page that I'm looking at, there needs

22     to be a small change because my current occupation changed in the

23     meantime.  Everything else is correct.

24        Q.   Please look at paragraph 3 of your statement.  It's on page 2.

25             Can we please see it in e-court.

Page 2771

 1             We can see paragraph 3, and you talk about your engagement in the

 2     BH Army.  Look at the one sentence but last.  You say:

 3             "During the war, it was mainly directed on providing assistance

 4     in relation to enemy activities such as evacuating the population in the

 5     event of an enemy incursion."

 6             Can you explain this practice regarding the evacuation of the

 7     population in the territory where you worked and where you worked in this

 8     Centre for Warning and Alert?  What were your responsibilities, in fact?

 9        A.   Yes.  I was on the reserve force in this Centre for Information,

10     Warning and Alert, and my duty was a reserve post.  First, I was a

11     signalsman in this Centre for Warning and Alert on the reserve force, and

12     then in 1985 I completed a training course to become commander of visual

13     observation stations in Tarcin.  And upon return, we had the drills.  As

14     commander of observation post, I was trained to set up an observation

15     post with everything that comprises, and equipment for visual

16     observation.  It was primarily aimed to serve in the case of natural

17     disasters, but also in times of war, infantry, motorised, and other units

18     that could be of danger to the population.

19        Q.   So you were able, independently, as an employee of that Centre

20     for Warnings and Alert, to make that decision on evacuation, or was that

21     decision to be made by some superior in the municipal authority?

22        A.   Since I was just commander in charge of establishing observation

23     stations, observation posts, somebody would issue me with an order to set

24     up a visual observation post at a certain location, and certainly all the

25     follow-up orders would be issued accordingly, and I would comply with

Page 2772

 1     these orders.  That means that whatever I see, and the other people

 2     manning the observation post, we would pass on.  And based on the

 3     information we provide, decisions and orders would be made.

 4        Q.   Would then the municipal authority decide on the evacuating the

 5     population or you, in the observation post, could decide to evacuate

 6     people?

 7        A.   Yes, sir, this would be done by the relevant organ whose duties

 8     included that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Since you completed training in the Tarcin centre,

10     which is outside of your hometown, is that something that applied to all

11     the municipalities that were under the control of the B and H Army?

12        A.   I think I didn't understand the question quite clearly, but I

13     will do my best to answer.

14             I don't really know what the policy was in other municipalities,

15     how it was organised.  In my municipality, it was organised in that way.

16        Q.   Were there people in Tarcin who only worked in your municipality

17     or were there people attending this course from other municipalities as

18     well?

19        A.   There were people from other municipalities, but I don't know if

20     there were people from all the municipalities attending the course.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think reached the convenient time for our

23     second break, or are you in a specific line of questions?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             We have just dealt with a decision on evacuation.  I understood

Page 2773

 1     that this was done by the relevant organ, just like the witness said, and

 2     we have completed that.  And we're going to move to the next group of

 3     questions when I continue my cross-examination.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 5             Then we must have the second break now.  We adjourn and resume at

 6     1.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please proceed.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             Can we look at P434, the statement of this witness, in e-court,

12     please.  And can we look at page 3 in the Serbian, paragraph 7.  Thank

13     you.  We're moving to a different topic.  Thank you.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   Witness, we can see that this is the last paragraph, where we're

16     talking about the centre, your facility, and that it used to be a radar

17     centre for the JNA before.  And then you talk about the facility, itself.

18     I would just like to ask you whether the Public Security Service

19     listening service was located in the same facility as your own section.

20        A.   In order to answer this question, I need to know what exactly the

21     thrust of your question is.  The State Security Service was located in

22     the same building.

23        Q.   Was it in the same room as your service or did they have separate

24     premises?

25        A.   No, they were not in the same room.  They had their own separate

Page 2774

 1     room.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can we now see page 4, paragraph 2 of this document, so that the

 4     witness can follow.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   This was something that was discussed in the

 7     examination-in-chief.  It says:

 8             "We would record the material in the UHER apparatus, and if it

 9     was not too busy, the operator could monitor the call.  If it was very

10     busy, then he could monitor or tape another conversation at another

11     device."

12             Did I explain what you did very well?

13        A.   Yes, you did.

14        Q.   When did you start to use the note-books in order to do the work

15     you described earlier?  Thank you.

16        A.   In order for things to be clearer, in the beginning we had some

17     papers, writing paper, or we used old military note-books that were a bit

18     larger in size, and we would write the text in them.  We were not asked

19     to keep the note-books for later.  As the job became more routine, then

20     the command sent more conditions that should be met in relation to

21     different aspects in order for our work to be more successful, and

22     amongst other things these note-books were brought in.  But I really

23     couldn't tell you exactly when this happened.

24        Q.   I don't ask for an exact date, but, approximately, if you can

25     tell us the year and what time of the year that you had the note-books

Page 2775

 1     for the first time.  Was it in 1994, 1995, during the first three months,

 2     the second three months?  In quarterly segments, if you can tell us.

 3        A.   I couldn't really tell you the year, sir, but I can tell you that

 4     it was 1994.  I really couldn't give you the exact time-period, but I can

 5     try.  I'm not sure how successful I can be or how important that can be,

 6     but it's probably the second half of 1994 that we're talking about here.

 7        Q.   Thank you for this answer.  So we're talking about the second

 8     half of 1994.  As you said in the examination-in-chief, which dealt with

 9     this, and I don't want to repeat that, and you said earlier, that you did

10     not keep a note down, those papers before, what did you do with that

11     paper that you used to make your notes on?

12        A.   A small correction.  We did make notes.  You said we didn't make

13     notes.  You said that we made notes, because without making notes we

14     wouldn't be able to transcribe it.  The command didn't ask of us to keep

15     them, so that's why I think we burned the papers.  We used them to make a

16     fire.

17        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is:  You've seen the note-book here

18     that the Prosecutor showed to you during the examination-in-chief, and we

19     saw it as well.  That note-book, P425, that's that exhibit, you explained

20     the numbers that you entered into the note-book.  When we look at that

21     note-book, we can see that on page 2, it was recorded on the 26th of

22     June, 1990 --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the year.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   But then you have the "21st of May, 1995," written in the

Page 2776

 1     note-book.  Can you explain this difference in dates or do you need to

 2     see the note-books again?  On the fourth page, there is no date, only the

 3     time of recording and the frequency and the number of the channel.  There

 4     are no dates from the beginning to the end, except the very first date.

 5     And I looked through the whole note-book.  Can you please explain why

 6     there is no date given during the listening, so that we could establish

 7     when a specific conversation was recorded?  Thank you.

 8        A.   Of course, yes.  That is a very good observation, sir.  The dates

 9     were not placed -- I'm starting from the back, and then you can follow.

10     I'm going to answer your questions in reverse order, because you put a

11     number of questions there.

12             During the actual transcription of the conversation, we didn't

13     put any dates in because we were not asked to do that.  Our note-book --

14     and our note-books, one of which you did see, was made like a kind of

15     script, a draft, which will then later be used to make a document, and

16     the data in the book was sufficient for us to be able to create the

17     documents that we created and that we have now.  The date that you saw,

18     the 21st of May, I think that's what you said --

19        Q.   That's right.

20        A.   Yes, that was the date that you mentioned, relates to the date

21     when the note-book was constituted at the unit command, the command of

22     the company for anti-electronic warfare of the Republic of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina.

24             I saw once in a dispatch that the note-books were made by the

25     person in charge of the warehouse.  He would enter these code numbers

Page 2777

 1     into the note-books, and then the note-books were ready to be distributed

 2     to us at the facility.  For a while, they had the practice of

 3     constituting the documents in the warehouse, and then they left the

 4     warehouse and were issued to the facility.  The note-book also contains

 5     other information.  You would go back one page and you could see that I

 6     wrote the "26th of June, 1995."  That is the date when the note-book was

 7     placed at our disposal, at the disposal of the people who worked with me,

 8     the operators.  So from that date on, entries could be made into the

 9     note-book, but that doesn't mean it was immediately placed on the table,

10     because other note-books were in use too.

11             The third piece of data that you referred to is the number 29/2.

12     As you said, I think it means 29 slash second copy.  This is something

13     that refers to the second copy of this particular item 29.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can we look at P425, and can we look at page 3 in the e-court.

16     Thank you.  Can you please show page 3.  Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   This has now been marked without stating how many pages there are

19     in this note-book, which has been registered under number 08/201294, and

20     so the question now is:  Why was it marked, when the person who marked it

21     did not mark the number of pages, because earlier you said that you were

22     the one who did that, and he didn't write down how many pages there were,

23     and he did not certify this in any way or certify it with his own

24     signature either?  Is it possible that he could have -- that the person

25     who was actually operating the equipment could have entered this data

Page 2778

 1     into the note-book?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Sir, there was no possibility that the operator entered this

 3     information into the note-book.  The practice used to register documents

 4     by the command of my unit is something that you have to inquire about of

 5     the commander of that group.  I cannot discuss their practice because I'm

 6     not familiar with it.  What this means is that I received the document

 7     with this text already in it.  I accepted it as such.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Since this note-book is now being used in court

 9     as an exhibit, is it logical to put the question on the basis of which

10     can we know who wrote this, when they wrote it, who signed it, and why

11     did they leave the possibility that the users fill in the number of

12     pages?  As users, they could have ripped out certain pages and come to

13     the number that suited them.  That's a possibility, isn't it?  Thank you.

14        A.   These comments that you have made now, I would rather have you

15     put them to the person who was in charge of the shift.  That was the

16     person who gave these note-books to me.  Perhaps they know answers to

17     these questions, and if not, perhaps they know who does, why this

18     information is entered in this particular way, and why this was given to

19     me, as such.  As far as I am concerned, this is what I was given, and

20     this is, I think, a question that should be put to the person who gave me

21     the note-book.

22        Q.   Thank you.  If they testify, we will ask them, but I am not able

23     to put these questions to them.  But I'm asking you as a witness before

24     this Tribunal, and I'm asking you.  Please respond.  If you know yes or

25     no, you have to tell me yes or no.

Page 2779

 1             Is it logical that you, as a user, fill in the number of pages

 2     without that being done by the person who issued the note-book to you in

 3     the first place?

 4        A.   I really don't want to enter into any kind of discussion with you

 5     about this, sir, whether I can receive such a document or not and whether

 6     I should or shouldn't do that, because I said that I did receive an order

 7     that I was the one who should fill in the number of pages.  So I simply

 8     executed the order that I was given.  As for the policies of the command,

 9     I said a number of times that I was never at the command, I am not

10     familiar with their practices and policy, and this is an item that I

11     received and the command that I received at the facility when the book

12     was empty.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, were these note-books burned while

14     you were on location or were they used for other purposes, such as

15     heating, because we've heard testimony to that effect as well?

16        A.   I think that issue has been clarified.  There was a period when

17     we did not have books, we were not getting note-books from the command,

18     and the papers we were using we did not have to give to anyone.  They

19     were considered worthless.  So what you said about the burning of papers,

20     I don't know if it was for heating, but certainly to start a fire, they

21     could have been used for that purpose.  But the note-books that we have

22     before us now have not been burned and have not been used for starting a

23     fire.  Each of the note-books that were given to the location were later

24     turned over to the command.

25        Q.   Why suddenly -- why did these materials written in the note-books

Page 2780

 1     suddenly become valuable, whereas earlier they had been considered

 2     worthless?  Was it somebody's decision?

 3        A.   I can answer the question in part only.

 4             Quite simply, an order came that note-books would be used, that

 5     note-books would be provided from the command, that we need to archive

 6     them and return them to the command once they were filled.

 7        Q.   Did you acquire these note-books yourselves?

 8        A.   No, sir.  The note-books were delivered to me in the course of

 9     rotation, when we changed shifts.  At the location, logistical support

10     was given on the same occasion.  We would turn over the note-books that

11     were used up, and audio-recordings, and new ones would be brought in.  At

12     the same time, we repaired four UHER devices that we had.  Some were

13     constantly in use.  It was never considered important whether there were

14     more than four UHERs in use.  Four were the standard set.

15        Q.   From that time when you used -- when you started using

16     note-books, were operators able to bring their own note-books to record

17     conversations intercepted?

18        A.   One could only do that upon orders of the command and with their

19     approval.  That means if the command was unable to supply note-books and

20     they instead sent somebody to buy note-books.

21        Q.   Was it possible to buy note-books somewhere close to the

22     location?  Was there a shop?

23        A.   There was a shop four kilometres away from us.

24        Q.   Did they sell note-books of this kind or some other kind, paper,

25     stationery?

Page 2781

 1        A.   That shop sold everything they could lay their hands on.  I

 2     really don't know if they had note-books as well.

 3        Q.   On pages 5 and 6 of your statement, you say you had contacts with

 4     ICTY investigators, Dean Manning and Stefanie Frease, and you gave them

 5     the copies of these note-books.

 6             Can we show this statement number 434, pages 5 and 6.

 7        A.   Yes, sir.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us, were you able to explain to them which intercept

 9     was recorded when, because there is not a single date in this note-book,

10     there's only the date when it was registered by the warehouse-keeper?

11        A.   No, I did not do that.  It wasn't my job to explain that, and

12     they didn't ask me anyway.

13        Q.   I'm reading the last sentence on page 5:

14             "On 12 May 1999, I showed these note-books to the

15     investigators --"

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The accused is saying the names unintelligibly.

17     Could the accused please repeat and speak more slowly when he's reading?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did that.  It's a copy from

19     my own note-book that I kept myself in that period, so it's my own

20     personal note-book.  And the other three that I turned over to this

21     Tribunal were my own personal note-books.  And there is a copy of the

22     other note-book you mentioned, where I provided copies of some of the

23     material, is also my personal note-book.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I'm sorry.  On page -- on the last page of this document, that is

Page 2782

 1     number 6, you say in the second paragraph:

 2             "There are details in this note-book also about the repairs of

 3     equipment and frequencies.  There are also diagrams that --"

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter cannot understand what the

 5     accused is reading or saying.  He's speaking very, very unclearly.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters didn't catch what

 7     you were speaking or reading.  It was quite unclear.  You should speak

 8     into the microphone and perhaps indicate again from which page you are

 9     reading.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm quoting from page 6,

11     paragraph 6.  I'm not going to read it again.  There's no need.  I just

12     want to ask the witness, based on what I've read so far, if he

13     understood, why he kept these note-books that were recorded by the

14     official authorities and they had been given numbers.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Was that appropriate or not?

17        A.   These are note-books that I kept.  Some of the information was

18     recorded even before the war.  These are my personal notes that had

19     nothing to do with the war.  There are some entries of personal nature

20     related to my family, nothing for the purposes of this Court.  I focused

21     and indicated the entries that have to do with this subject.

22        Q.   Can documents be authentic that you turned over to this Tribunal

23     while still keeping them in your personal archives?  You, as operators,

24     to what extent can they be authentic for the purposes of the Court?

25        A.   These documents had already been shown pursuant to various

Page 2783

 1     requests and applications, although I'm not sure whether it was in this

 2     case.

 3        Q.   I'm asking you whether they are equally authentic when they are

 4     kept in personal archives as when they are when kept in official

 5     archives.

 6        A.   I'm not qualified to make that judgement, whether they would be

 7     more authentic if they had been kept by official authorities.  But in any

 8     case, they couldn't be, because they contain personal information that

 9     has nothing to do with this institution or the events of this time.

10        Q.   But you say from them, you let this Tribunal have part of the

11     material that is relevant; is that so?

12        A.   Yes, that is so.  The pages are marked, and the part of the

13     note-book that can be shared has been marked, and everyone was happy with

14     that.

15        Q.   Then tell me, what is the purpose of putting numbers on this

16     note-book and assigning certain numbers when everyone can use them for

17     their own personal archives?

18        A.   The only thing I was asked was, from the day when entries started

19     in this note-book, the material that has been copied, that I put in no

20     further personal information.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

22             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  I just wanted to make it clear

23     from the record, because the accused's question is conflating clearly two

24     different sets of note-books that this witness has made abundantly clear,

25     I think, in his answers that there are personal note-books and then there

Page 2784

 1     are the intercept note-books.  And without distinguishing between the

 2     two, the accused is referring to one and the other and conflating the

 3     two.  I think the witness has managed to keep them straight, but I want,

 4     if there are going to be further questions along this line, that the

 5     accused make specific reference to whether he's referring to the personal

 6     note-books or the intercept note-books about which we heard the testimony

 7     about registering them, numbering the page numbers, whereas with the

 8     personal note-books there has been no such testimony.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

10             Mr. Tolimir.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Witness, you said a moment ago you had been told to put in no

13     further personal information into the note-books?

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15        Q.   Until that time, were you allowed to make your own notes in these

16     note-books?

17        A.   Yes, sir.

18        Q.   Were you able to add or change statements in the note-books until

19     the time when you were told not to?

20        A.   We have to make a clear distinction, whether I was able to and

21     whether I actually did.  The material shown here has not been tampered

22     with in any way.  I didn't add anything.  I was able to put in lists of

23     my own supplies because I was running my own business, et cetera.  It has

24     nothing to do with the other information contained.  But I stopped doing

25     that at a certain point when I was told to stop.

Page 2785

 1        Q.   In the note-books shown here under the tab in the binder that you

 2     received from the Prosecutor, the intercepts, are there any telegrams

 3     that another person started recording and then you took over?

 4        A.   I didn't understand the question.  Is it in my note-books?  Could

 5     you repeat that question?

 6        Q.   I'll read out to you the last sentence from page 6:

 7             "The start of this entry was made by another operator, whom I may

 8     have relieved so he could prepare lunch or leave the shift.  This entry

 9     is entitled 'CX 3, 11.19,' and the entry which relates to the

10     commencement of that book is 14 July 1995."

11             Can you clarify this, if you didn't understand my previous

12     question?

13        A.   Yes, I can see that text now before me:  First of all, a small

14     correction.  It's not "CX," as you said, it's "CH," and it's not the time

15     that you've said.  It's 11.19.  Yes, I made this entry.

16        Q.   And who put in the date, "14 July 1995"?

17        A.   I did.

18        Q.   Is that the date when the note-book was first put into use or is

19     it the date of some particular intercept?

20        A.   Sir, if you want to discuss this text, I'd like to see the

21     handwritten version.  I want to be sure what exactly you're asking and

22     what it refers to.

23        Q.   You can ask the Prosecutor if he can give you that, because he

24     must have that in the supporting material.  I don't have it.

25             Are there any entries in this note-book that were started by one

Page 2786

 1     operator and continued by you?

 2        A.   I'm sorry, I had to take a moment to look at the text to

 3     understand your question.

 4             So you're not talking any more about my note-books; you are

 5     talking about a passage from my statement.  What is written there in that

 6     part of the statement is "14 July 1995."  When I was giving the

 7     statement, the date from that note-book was read out.  I suppose that

 8     note-book is available.

 9        Q.   For the record, answer the question.  In this binder that you

10     have in front of you, is there an intercept that you recorded and

11     transcribed from a certain point in the intercept, which was started by

12     another operator whom you relieved at some point?

13        A.   Give me a moment to find it.

14             I cannot find it in the file that I have in front of me.

15        Q.   You stated here on page 6, in the last sentence, that another

16     operator started "whom I may be relieved so he could prepare lunch or

17     leave the shift."  That's the one-but-last sentence on page 6 in your

18     statement.  Where is that; can you tell us?

19        A.   I can -- I suppose I have an idea in which book it should be, but

20     I don't have this material here with me.  But I did present this

21     material, and this is my statement.  This is, indeed, what I said.  And

22     there is an intercept where you can see, really, that until halfway down

23     the text, the handwriting is not mine.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

Page 2787

 1             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I see that the accused is returning

 2     to this issue of this intercept that's referred to in the witness

 3     statement here at the end of the last page in the English.  If the

 4     accused wishes to have that original intercept note-book brought in, and

 5     again that's a different note-book from the one that's in the witness's

 6     binder altogether - this is something that was just discussed in the

 7     witness statement - we're happy to do that.  We were not given any list

 8     of cross-examination materials from the Defence, so we don't have every

 9     single intercept note-book here with us.  We only have that which we put

10     on our list.  But if the general wants that, we can certainly clarify

11     this issue very quickly if this witness is shown that particular

12     document, I'm sure.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Thayer is indicating that you

14     perhaps mix up two different note-books, and that could create some

15     problems.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             I'm not confusing those note-books.  I'm talking about note-book

18     number 97, and the witness also talks about it in his statement.  I

19     quote:

20             "I recognised my handwriting."

21             That's on page 6, the last paragraph but one:

22             "I recognised my handwriting in some of the note-books, including

23     an entry in the note-book which is marked '97' on the cover, an RRU 800,

24     as well as the date, '14 July 1995.'  My handwriting appears in one

25     number of entries, including one at the bottom of page 7 which goes on to

Page 2788

 1     the next page.  The beginning of that entry was made by another operator

 2     whom I perhaps relieved so he could prepare lunch or leave the shift:

 3     This entry is headed "CH 3 11.19," and the entry which marks the

 4     commencement of that book is '14 July 1995.'"

 5             End of witness statement.

 6             I'm just asking what the witness has stated and which has been

 7     used as evidence.  Can that be a reliable piece of evidence?

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Have we seen the note-book number 97 today in

 9     court --

10             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- or number 9, as I recall it?

12             MR. THAYER:  I repeat, Mr. President.  These are two different

13     note-books.  The general asked the witness to look in the note-book that

14     he was given today to find an intercept that is a different intercept

15     from a different note-book that's referred to in the statement.  We are

16     happy to bring in note-book 97, as Your Honour has pointed out, which is

17     a different note-book from number 9, which is what the witness was shown

18     today.  If the general wishes that to be brought in, we're happy to

19     comply.  But we've had no notice, so we don't have it here.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are now running out of time.  We have to come

21     to an end because the courtroom will be used by another trial in half an

22     hour.

23             Could you -- this problem could be resolved, I think, until the

24     hearing of tomorrow.  Could you please indicate, Mr. Tolimir, how long

25     your remainder of the cross-examination will be?

Page 2789

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have only two more

 2     questions, and then I'm finished, if you allow me.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That could be helpful.  But do you accept the

 4     explanation about the two different note-books by Mr. Thayer?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't accept or reject anything.

 6     I'm just asking about certain things that are illogical concerning a

 7     piece of evidence given and offered in this courtroom.  I don't want to

 8     discuss it; I just want to ask the witness if there had been any

 9     proceedings against him while he was working in the northern location.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where he was where?  Excuse me?

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   The northern location?

13        A.   Now I heard.  No, no, sir.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Were you involved in burglaring [as interpreted] the

15     UNPROFOR antennas while you were there?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Did the UNPROFOR have their antennas there at the location?

18        A.   They had their transmitter.

19        Q.   Did NATO have their transmitter there?

20        A.   Not that I know.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you turn the antennas around or did antennas,

22     themselves, choose channels?

23        A.   No, we turned them manually.

24        Q.   Why, when the antenna was able to do scanning and select channels

25     where conversations were going on?

Page 2790

 1        A.   Can you just repeat the first thing you said?

 2        Q.   Did you have scanning devices?

 3        A.   Yes.  But what you asked me a moment ago was why we turned

 4     antennas manually when the device was able to scan.  Is that what you

 5     asked?

 6        Q.   Yes, I asked that, but later I asked if you had scanning devices.

 7        A.   Yes, we had scanning devices.

 8        Q.   These scanning devices, do they make it unnecessary for operators

 9     to turn antennas around if they're able to find frequencies and channels

10     themselves?

11        A.   No, sir.  That's something the rotator does.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat.  This question

13     was not heard.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, since we did not use a

15     rotator, it depends on the performance of the equipment.  I'm talking

16     about the technical capacities of the rotator.  In some devices, it is

17     set up so that it self-activates at a certain level of signal.  Such

18     devices exist, but we didn't have them.  We used the devices where we

19     would fix antennas ourselves, and we would use them to scan one

20     direction, one route.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.  Thank everyone

22     who helped hear this witness.

23             I have finished my examination, and I will clear up other issues

24     through my examination of other witnesses, and that will not affect the

25     quality of examination, and we will be able to get all the information we

Page 2791

 1     need.

 2             Thank you, Witness.  God bless you.  Thank the interpreters and

 3     everyone who helped us complete this examination today.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

 5             Mr. Thayer, is there any re-examination?

 6             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this

 8     concludes the examination, and you are now free to return to your normal

 9     activities.  Thank you for attending here in The Hague, and we wish you a

10     safe journey back.  Thank you very much.

11             But please be seated for a moment.

12             Mr. Thayer, in the meantime, I got the information that the

13     Prosecution intends to call Witness Stanko Gojkovic tomorrow first.  Is

14     that the fact, because there were some changes?

15             MR. THAYER:  That is correct, Mr. President.  That is the

16     Prosecution's intention, subject, of course, to the Trial Chamber's

17     decision regarding our motion to convert him from a 92 bis witness to a

18     92 ter witness.  We note that -- I believe that the Defence did not

19     object to that.  Obviously, having him here for cross-examination is

20     something they're looking forward to.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  The Chamber has considered

22     your motion.  The motion is granted, and we hope that you follow the

23     guide-lines of the Chamber, how to proceed with the exhibits and the

24     transcripts, which should be the corrected and official one.  The same

25     relates to the witness who was still present.  I didn't ask you earlier

Page 2792

 1     today if these are the official and corrected transcripts of the Popovic

 2     case.

 3             MR. THAYER:  We have confirmation from the source, Mr. President,

 4     that they are official.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is very helpful.

 6             Thank you very much for your patience.

 7             We adjourn and resume tomorrow at 9.00 in this courtroom.  We

 8     adjourn.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

12                           June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.