Page 2885
1 Thursday, 17 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
6 Could the witness be brought in, please.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 WITNESS: DANKO GOJKOVIC [Resumed]
9 [The witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to remind you that the affirmation
13 you made yesterday to tell the truth still applies.
14 And Mr. McCloskey has some additional questions for you.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning.
16 Could we start where we left off? We had 6347 on the screen,
17 and to remind everyone, the witness had testified about this. He had it
18 from the original. He was looking at the original, and it was on the
19 redirect issue of where he put his signature. And he also, you'll
20 recall, testified that this appeared to him to be a typewritten document
21 on the issue of how unusual typewriters or typewritten documents would
22 be, as brought up on cross.
23 And, Mr. President, it's now time to offer this into evidence.
24 However, we don't -- oh, we do have an English translation, so I would
25 offer this into evidence at this time.
Page 2886
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And now could we go --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P517.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Carry on, please.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go to 6348. And if I could give the
7 original -- if we could give the original of that to the witness.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
9 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
10 Q. Witness, and on the same issue as before, this document, as we
11 can see, has "Ziza" up in the corner, so is this a "Ziza" document, not
12 one of yours?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And can you tell, by looking at the original, whether that is a
15 teleprinter or a typewriter used in making it?
16 A. Typewriter.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And I would offer this document into
18 evidence.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P518.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. And staying with the issue on where you sign your teleprinter
23 documents or other documents that you send to the teleprinter, I would
24 like to just hopefully quickly be able to go through four documents to
25 identify -- to see if you can identify your signature, so we can
Page 2887
1 determine where you're doing it.
2 If we could start with 6352. And I don't believe we have a
3 translation for this.
4 But can you recognise your signature anywhere on this?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So is that you down in the left corner?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That's your normal signature, stating you sent a "predato" at a
9 certain time; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 5914.
12 And that last one will be marked only for identification,
13 Mr. President, since it does not have a translation.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked, pending translation.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P519.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. So this is a -- we've given it a
17 65 ter number of 5914, and so we need a -- it does not have a
18 translation, so we'll need a P number for that. I'm sorry, this does
19 have a translation. I'm wrong about that.
20 Can we go to page 2 of the B/C/S and page 3 of the English?
21 Q. Okay. So do you recognise, sir, again your signature, and date,
22 and "predato" in the left bottom corner of this document?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would the witness please identify the handwriting
Page 2888
1 on the upper right corner? What is written there, and by whom?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whose handwriting this
3 is. All it says is "Very Urgent."
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would offer that into evidence.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P520.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can go to 6350. This has no translation.
9 Q. And, again, do you recognise the signature and date in the left
10 lower corner of this document?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And who is that?
13 A. Mine.
14 Q. And how about the handwritten part of this document that finishes
15 up the typewritten part? We see about four lines of handwriting. Do you
16 recognise whose handwriting that is?
17 A. No.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. That will be just marked for
19 identification until we get a translation. Thank you.
20 If we could go --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification, pending
22 translation.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P521, marked for identification.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the last document in this -- on this topic,
25 6351.
Page 2889
1 Q. And, sir, is that your signature, with "predato" and the date, in
2 the left lower corner of this document?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we don't have a translation, so we'll be
5 offering this later.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P522, marked for identification.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the next issue I would like to
9 enter into briefly, I hope, is that -- it was first mentioned on
10 page 2820, line 15, on cross-examination, and mentioned several times
11 throughout, where General Tolimir was asking the witness about a
12 perforated tape that the machine created to create a record of what was
13 being sent. For another matter not related to this case, it so happens
14 we did have -- we do have a teleprinter in storage, and I can wheel it
15 out - it's right behind me - so that you can see what that is and get a
16 little view of this thing regarding this tape, so you can get a better
17 feel for what this machine is.
18 It was never my intention to have him give us a lesson on the
19 machine. I don't think that's necessary. But the discussion about tape
20 was fairly extensive, so I think it may be a good idea just for you to
21 see this. It won't take long. I also have a photograph of the machine,
22 but unfortunately it didn't show the tape.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is this original machine one of those used in
24 this specific office?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't believe so. This is just a machine we
Page 2890
1 got from Bosnia, which I believe is similar or the same as the machine --
2 it may or may not be, but I believe it is. We'll, of course, have to
3 rely on the witness. I've not shown this machine to the witness before.
4 But whatever kind of machine it is, there is a tape that I think will
5 help explain what the General was referring to, and it may assist the
6 General's cross as well.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please proceed as suggested. We would like
9 to see the machine.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 If you could perhaps turn it around or put it to the side so the
12 Court and the witness can get a look at the front of the machine.
13 And I have a photograph of this machine. It's at 6357, so this
14 can be the record of this.
15 Q. Witness, does this machine look familiar to you, or this kind of
16 machine, I should say?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You answered General Tolimir that you had two kinds of
19 teleprinters at the Rogatica Brigade during your work there. Is this one
20 of those kind?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, this is noted to be an ETL/1
23 machine, as we can see from the screen.
24 Q. And I don't want to -- we don't need a lesson on this machine,
25 but these two boxes sitting next to it that came with it, do you know
Page 2891
1 what those had to do with, just very briefly?
2 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but I think that's where the
3 transmission occurred. I couldn't tell you exactly how it works. I know
4 that these two boxes came together with the teleprinter, but I couldn't
5 explain how it works.
6 Q. Okay. And as you testified, this teleprinter and its machines
7 have the ability to encrypt messages when they were sent; is that
8 correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I'm sure you recall General Tolimir asking you about what he
11 referred to as the perforated tape that left an impression and formed
12 some sort of record of what was sent. Do you -- having his questions in
13 mind, can you point out to us what you think he may have been asking you
14 about?
15 A. This is the perforated tape of 15 or 20 millimetres. It's
16 there [indicates]. When you type, some dots would appear on the tape.
17 Q. Thank you. And I'm not sure the Judges can see it, but we see
18 paper through the plastic top of this machine, and what is that paper?
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 Q. No, I'm sorry. If you look down from the top of the machine --
21 if you need to you can stand up and take a look. Yes, that's what I'm
22 talking about. What is that paper?
23 A. The paper would show what was being typed. As you type, the
24 paper would show the letters. It's like a telegram, paper like this
25 paper here [indicating].
Page 2892
1 Q. All right. And you've testified that you used an electric
2 machine, and is this, in fact, an electric teleprinter?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And one last question I have is: Do you recall whether or not
5 this machine creates -- actually has physical arms that hit the paper and
6 create the impression, or it's some kind of electronic impression, or is
7 this an actual mechanical machine?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. If you could, could you just look down at the top again and see
10 if you see mechanical arms or anything that might help you answer that
11 question?
12 If the witness could --
13 A. [No interpretation]
14 Q. I'm sorry, they didn't quite catch what you said.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please say again what you said?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. Can you just describe, after looking at the machine, what
18 actually makes the impressions on the paper from this machine? Is it a
19 mechanical arm or is it some kind of electronic printing like we're used
20 to today?
21 A. I think it's mechanical.
22 Q. I'm sorry to do this to you, but do you remember how to take off
23 the top? And just take a look and maybe pull up anything you see. Just
24 it's an issue I'd like to resolve.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, the witness hit the keyboard
Page 2893
1 and then lifted it up.
2 Q. Can you just tell us what it was you just lifted up, that metal
3 piece you lifted up after pressing the keyboard?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could the camera zero in on this? Could the
5 camera go off me and onto the machine, please? Can we get a frontal view
6 so we can look inside the machine, please? The camera behind the Court
7 would probably do a pretty good job. Thank you.
8 Q. And just one last time, could you lift up the mechanical arms
9 that you lifted up briefly?
10 Thank you very much, Witness.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I would tender the photograph
12 as 6357.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we receive that, I would like to invite
14 Mr. Gajic to have a look on the machine, so that he has, instead of the
15 accused, an opportunity to see it directly.
16 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have already seen
17 the machine, so there is no need to do it now. Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
19 The photograph will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P523.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I don't have any further
22 questions about the machine. I don't know if the Court does, but I'm
23 done on that particular machine.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, it could be removed. Or there's no
25 need to do that now. It could be done later, yes, to save court time.
Page 2894
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
2 Could we go to 6356.
3 Q. Sir, you mentioned to General Tolimir that there was two
4 machines. Does this machine look at all familiar to you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was this machine used when you were working at the Rogatica
7 Brigade, this kind of machine?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would offer this photograph of the
10 Siemens T-100 into evidence.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P524.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we bring up D49 on e-court. This is
14 the 13 July document relating to people going to Sjemec, or proposing to
15 send people to Sjemec. And could we show the witness the original
16 typewritten version of that document.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. And I just want to clarify. If you -- let's get that up on the
20 screen.
21 General Tolimir was asking you about this document, and I believe
22 it was up on the screen, and he asked you about the number which you had
23 testified looked like "80" to you. Now that you look at the original
24 document, where it says "Za 8" something, can you give us your opinion
25 what that actual number is on the original document? Do you see where
Page 2895
1 I'm talking? It's like the third line down, underneath --
2 A. "0," "80."
3 Q. How many zeros do you see on the original? I'm not talking about
4 the computer. I mean the original.
5 A. I see one, and perhaps next to it there could be another 0. I'm
6 not sure, though.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. Mr. President, I know the Court
8 looked at this yesterday. I don't know if you want to look at it again.
9 I --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, I would like to see it again.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. It should be shown again to
13 the accused, if he is interested in it.
14 Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Could we now go to 65 ter 6349. We have a typed version and a
17 handwritten version of the same document, and if both originals could be
18 given to the witness.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And this is on the issue of whether or not it was
21 always the practice to sign -- for the author of document -- of
22 teleprinters to sign the teleprinter or sign a handwritten version.
23 Could we put these side by side so the Court could see both of
24 them, since -- page 1 and page 2, I'm sorry. You'll see one is a
25 handwritten version. There we go.
Page 2896
1 Q. Now, first of all, looking at the handwritten version, do you see
2 your signature under -- anywhere on this document?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then looking at the other -- the typeface document, do you
5 see any indication -- your signature on that?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for the record, on the handwritten document,
8 the only handwritten signature we see is at the right lower corner.
9 Q. Is that you in the handwritten document?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Okay. And, sorry, back to the typewritten document, where do you
12 see your signature on this document?
13 A. Top right corner.
14 Q. And we see initials "G.D." down in the left corner. Is that you,
15 too?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, we don't have a translation for this, but are these
18 documents related? In looking at both of them are -- and take a minute,
19 if you need it.
20 A. They're identical.
21 Q. And which document would you have seen first?
22 A. This one [indicates], the one in handwriting.
23 Q. And what did you then do after receiving -- or what would you
24 have normally done after receiving a handwritten document like this? I
25 take it you don't -- do you remember this document at all?
Page 2897
1 A. I would type it and then send it to the command of the corps.
2 Q. Okay. Just do you remember this particular document at all?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. Now, when you -- so what is the left-hand document,
5 the document that also has your signature on it, the typed version?
6 Where does that fit into the process?
7 A. I don't understand.
8 Q. Well, if you got the handwritten document and typed it into the
9 machine, what's the next document that would come as a result?
10 A. It's the same document, except it's typed up on the teleprinter.
11 I don't know what else to tell you.
12 Q. Okay. So is the teleprinter document the document that came out
13 of the teleprinter after you typed the handwritten document into it?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Can you explain, do you know if you sent -- both are noted as
16 sent. Do you think you sent this document twice or only once?
17 A. Once, I think. But why I signed it twice, I can't remember.
18 Q. And we don't see any signature for Mr. Lelek anywhere on the
19 handwritten document, do we? Take a look at it. Do you see any
20 signature of Mr. Lelek or any other person that may have authored this
21 document?
22 A. I can't see any.
23 Q. And that's the same with the teleprinter document, there's no
24 author that has signed off on that in handwriting, aside from yourself as
25 the person that sent it; is that correct?
Page 2898
1 A. Correct, there's only my signature.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this document to be MFI'd, because
3 we don't yet have a translation.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification, pending
5 translation.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P525, marked for identification.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Just one last area.
8 Q. On page 2877 of the transcript from yesterday, General Tolimir
9 was asking you -- well, he asked you the following question:
10 "If he met," meaning General Tolimir, "with Torlak at 12.00 and
11 attended that meeting, was it then possible for him to write that
12 telegram and send it to you from Boksanica by courier, having typewritten
13 it as well, so that you were able to send it already at 1510?"
14 Your answer was:
15 "I don't know how long that meeting was. Boksanica is far away.
16 And from Rogatica, I don't know."
17 Can you tell us -- you've told us the Borike IKM, I think, was
18 about 18 kilometres from the Rogatica Command. The Boksanica
19 check-point, do you know where that was?
20 A. No.
21 Q. All right. And had there been a telephone wire communication at
22 Boksanica for General Tolimir's use, he could have or his -- a
23 subordinate of his could have called the command directly and not used a
24 courier; is that correct?
25 A. I don't know if they had a telephone line from Boksanica.
Page 2899
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's look at document P129. And if you could
2 blow up just the paragraph right below the numbers. Thank you.
3 And this is a -- we see a Ziza document, dated 14 July 1995, from
4 the Rogatica Brigade Command.
5 If we go to the end of -- let's go to the end of the document.
6 It's the next -- well, there it is. "General Tolimir," in the B/C/S,
7 I think we can see that. So if we go back up to the numbers 1 through
8 10.
9 Q. And this document, we see, it's sent to various places, including
10 the Main Staff, the Drina Corps, the Drina Corps Forward Command Post,
11 and the Command of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment, and it's
12 entitled "Placing the UNPROFOR check-points under our control." Then
13 it --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, "under control."
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Freudian slip.
16 And if we go down, we see short descriptions of the check-points.
17 Q. And then the paragraph right below number 10, it says:
18 "There are currently eight soldiers and one APC at each
19 check-point. For the time being, we have taken full control over the
20 check-point number 2 at Boksanica, where the command of the UNPROFOR
21 forces is located. We have wire connection with it. The check-point
22 will remain functioning as if it is not blocked and surrounded by our
23 forces."
24 Does this help you remember whether or not there was a wire
25 connection at the Boksanica check-point that General Tolimir had access
Page 2900
1 to in July?
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. There was a mistake in
4 the reading. The word read out was "obradjen," "processed" -- sorry,
5 "ogradjen" which means "fenced in," and the word really in there is
6 "inspected," "toured," "obidjen," by our forces.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we'll take a look at that, but the part
9 about the wire connection is what I'm asking about.
10 Q. Does that help refresh your recollection or provide you with any
11 indication about this issue?
12 A. No, it's of no help at all. I don't know if there was a
13 connection, I really don't know.
14 Q. Now, you testified you were in the teleprinter room. Was there a
15 communications room or office at the brigade where they had a switchboard
16 and radios that received the main incoming calls, both on the telephone
17 and the radio, at the brigade?
18 A. Yes, there was a switchboard.
19 Q. And where was that in relation to where your building with the
20 teleprinter room was?
21 A. Just next to the teleprinter room.
22 Q. And did they have wire connections with you? Could the coms room
23 pick up a phone and ring you so you would pick up and speak directly to
24 them or whoever was calling?
25 A. Most of the time, we got out to go to the switchboard. It was
Page 2901
1 just next-door to each other. There was no need to call on the phone.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
3 I have nothing further, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
5 Mr. Gojkovic, I have two questions for you, one a very simple
6 one.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have heard very often the term "Ziza." What
9 was the full name of this person?
10 A. The day before yesterday, the Prosecutor reminded me, because I
11 had completely forgotten. His name was Desimir Zizovic.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 And another part of the transcript of yesterday, I would like to
14 clarify something. It is on page 72, lines 9 to 20. You were asked:
15 "We have seen in all the telegrams that we have been shown so far
16 that you wrote in the upper right-hand corner when you sent and received
17 the telegrams that we saw on the screen and that we looked at so far; is
18 that correct?"
19 And you answered: "Yes."
20 And now the relevant question. You were asked again:
21 "Only in this telegram, we see that what is written in the left
22 lower-hand corner is: 'Handed in at 1510 hours on the 13th of July,
23 1995,' and your signature, and that that is a photocopy of your signature
24 and the words that you wrote in; is that correct?"
25 And you said: "Yes."
Page 2902
1 Do you remember these questions and answers of yesterday?
2 A. Well, it would not be true if I said I really remember, but I can
3 try.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps you can explain again what you were
5 asked. If this signature was a photocopy, what did that mean, and why
6 did you say "Yes"? I don't understand your answer completely.
7 Perhaps we can have that part of the transcript on the screen
8 again. I think it was the document P125. We could perhaps have that on
9 the screen again to clarify this question in connection to the answer,
10 the question of Mr. Tolimir.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: We do have the original of that, of course, and
12 I think he had it in front of him when that question was asked.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. If you could give this original
14 version to the witness again, that would be helpful.
15 You were shown yesterday this document, and then you were asked
16 if that is a photocopy of your signature and the words that you wrote in,
17 if that is correct.
18 A. This is my signature. I don't know what I said was a photocopy.
19 Maybe I was looking on the monitor and said that was a photocopy. This
20 here is really my signature. Maybe I was looking at the screen at the
21 time when I was saying that. I'm not sure if I had the document in my
22 hand at that moment.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That clarifies the
24 situation.
25 Mr. Gojkovic, you will be pleased to hear this concludes the
Page 2903
1 questioning for you, and you are now free to return to your normal
2 activities and travel home. The Chamber would like to thank you for your
3 attendance here and that you came again to The Hague. Thank you again,
4 and all the best.
5 The witness is now free to leave the courtroom. Thank you again.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour.
10 Ms. Chittenden is ready to go with the next witness, and I will
11 be out for a moment with the machine and saying goodbye to the witness.
12 So we're ready to go.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In your capacity as a technician, it's very
14 appreciated that you remove this machine. Thank you.
15 Good morning, Ms. Chittenden.
16 MS. CHITTENDEN: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,
17 everyone in the courtroom.
18 Our next witness today is Witness 117, who will be known as the
19 pseudonym PW-050, and he will be testifying with face distortion today,
20 please. Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means we should close the screens first --
22 MS. CHITTENDEN: That's correct.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- so that the witness can be brought in.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. Please stand and wait for a
Page 2904
1 moment, and the screens should be opened.
2 Again, good morning, sir. Welcome to the Tribunal.
3 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is
4 shown to you now.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: PW-050
8 [The witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
10 Ms. Chittenden is examining you, and I would like to remind you
11 to speak slowly for the sake of the interpreters and the record.
12 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Examination by Ms. Chittenden:
14 Q. Good morning, Witness.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. We met this week. My name is Caitlin Chittenden, and I'll be
17 asking you some questions today on behalf of the Office of the
18 Prosecutor.
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please, could we have Exhibit P504 in e-court.
20 Q. Witness, you'll see something coming up on the screen in front of
21 you now. Please, could you read it to yourself and confirm that your
22 name is written next to "PW-050"?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I would like to tender this into
25 evidence as an exhibit under seal.
Page 2905
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
2 MS. CHITTENDEN:
3 Q. Witness, do you recall testifying in the case of Prosecutor
4 versus Popovic on 7 March 2007?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was your testimony at that time truthful and accurate?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Have you had the opportunity to listen to your Popovic testimony
9 before coming here today?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If you were asked the same questions again in court today, would
12 you answer in the same way?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I would like to offer the
15 witness's testimony in the Popovic case into evidence at this time. It
16 is P502, which is the under-seal version, and P503, which is the public
17 version.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, at this time I would also like to
20 offer three exhibits in conjunction with this witness's testimony in the
21 Popovic case. The first exhibit is P497, under seal, which is the
22 witness's OTP statement of 27 February 2007. This statement was admitted
23 as the underlying 92 ter statement in Popovic.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it will be received.
25 MS. CHITTENDEN: The second exhibit is P498, under seal. This is
Page 2906
1 the printed version of an intercepted conversation at 1057 hours on
2 19 January 2007.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
4 MS. CHITTENDEN: The third exhibit is P499, under seal. This is
5 an attendance sheet from a page in the personal date book of PW-128 in
6 Popovic.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This will be received as well.
8 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, just to note --
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There is no translation of the letter document.
11 Therefore it will be marked pending translation. Or do you have any
12 translation?
13 MS. CHITTENDEN: That's correct. There is no translation,
14 because it just records names, but I can arrange for an English
15 translation, of course.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked.
17 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, on the proposed exhibit list for
18 this witness, you will also see P500, P501, and P505, all under seal. We
19 have included these documents on the list for the purpose of assisting
20 the Trial Chamber to make sense of the Popovic transcript. The
21 Prosecution will not be seeking admission of these documents into
22 evidence.
23 Your Honours, I would now like to read a short summary of the
24 witness's testimony in Popovic.
25 Q. Witness, after I read out the summary, I'll have a few further
Page 2907
1 questions for you.
2 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, if we may move into private
3 session for a moment, please.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
5 [Private session]
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
22 MS. CHITTENDEN: The witness worked at the southern site until
23 around November 1995, and upon its closure was reassigned to the northern
24 site, where he worked until his demobilisation in April 1996.
25 As a commander at the southern site, the witness was responsible
Page 2908
1 for training and supervising his men in the use of radio equipment and
2 the method of work.
3 He described the procedure the intercept operators used to
4 monitor radio channels, record conversations, transcribe those
5 conversations in note-books, and type and transmit encrypted reports of
6 these intercepted conversations.
7 The witness personally typed and sent out these reports. The
8 reports were encrypted and transmitted via the Paket radio system. The
9 witness was the only typist in his detachment during January 1995, and up
10 until around late 1995, when the unit moved to the northern facility.
11 The witness stated that when transcribing intercepted
12 conversations, operators were not permitted to draw inferences or to
13 speculate. If an operator was uncertain of a word, the procedure he had
14 to follow was to listen to the recording again with one or two
15 colleagues. If none of the operators were certain of the word, then it
16 would be marked intelligible [sic].
17 The witness stated that the reliability of the intercepts his
18 unit recorded, transcribed, typed and transmitted depended on their
19 accuracy and their timely dispatch.
20 When the log-books, note-books, paper and tapes were filled, the
21 witness would turn them over to his platoon commander or to the
22 ABiH 2nd Corps.
23 During his 2007 OTP interview, the witness reviewed two pages
24 from the personal date book from the commander of the 2nd Detachment at
25 the southern site.
Page 2909
1 The date book indicated that this 2nd Detachment worked through
2 until 16 January 1995 and then resumed work on 26 January 1995. During
3 the intervening period between 16 and 26 January 1995, the witness stated
4 that as the only other detachment at the southern site, the witness's
5 detachment was automatically on duty.
6 The witness also reviewed a batch of reports typed and sent from
7 the southern site, including several reports from 19 January 1995, and he
8 confirmed that he was on duty that day. For the record, these reports
9 are marked as Exhibit 505, under seal. The witness further identified a
10 typed report designated "03/1901" of an intercepted conversation from
11 1057 hours on 19 January 1995 and originating from the southern site and
12 bearing his station number. The witness acknowledged that he typed and
13 sent this report. For the record, this intercept report is Exhibit 498,
14 under seal.
15 Your Honours, that concludes my summary.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
17 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, this witness is the 1st Detachment
18 commander from the southern site that we've heard from in this case, so I
19 would just like to ask him about a few topics before we move to
20 cross-examination.
21 Q. Witness, during the Popovic case you testified that as a
22 commander at the southern site, you supervised the men in your
23 detachment; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you briefly tell us what you did to supervise them?
Page 2910
1 A. My tasks in monitoring the soldiers, the men who were under my
2 command in the beginning, were to train them so that they would be able
3 to work independently on the apparatus that we used to monitor enemy
4 communications. Then the training did not boil just down to the manual
5 use of the equipment, but also on communications principles, because I
6 worked in the Yugoslav People's Army as a communications person, I was
7 familiar with that, so I trained people that they understand the concepts
8 of the communications so that they could then deal with some
9 uncertainties and if perhaps something needed to be fixed in the
10 communications.
11 We worked in shifts. When I say "shifts," what I mean is the
12 duty of a certain soldier at a specific post, his rest, when he needed to
13 go for a meal, he needed to find a replacement to be there for him, when
14 he was away, as well as the monitoring and control of their conduct at
15 the work-place itself, whether they were conscientiously and properly
16 carrying out their duties, that they're not missing certain
17 conversations, because some conversations which might seem useless, for
18 example, to someone, for example, a conversation by a member of the VRS
19 with their wife or their son, while processing information, could provide
20 some information that laymen would miss. So it was important not to miss
21 any conversation, regardless of the fact whether it was a conversation on
22 some military topics or whether it had to do with their personal life.
23 Then we had to monitor the personnel during the transcription process,
24 which means transcribing the material from the tapes to the note-books in
25 handwriting. That was mostly the work and the monitoring of the soldiers
Page 2911
1 during their work on the apparatus that we used to monitor the
2 communications of the Army of Republika Srpska.
3 In case when perhaps I was suspicious why a soldier would place
4 an exclamation mark in the transcription process from the tape to the
5 paper, I would replay that portion of the audiotape to see if there was
6 something that made that soldier put the exclamation mark there.
7 Sometimes it could happen that somebody would say a swear word as a joke.
8 That could be one case. But sometimes this curse or some kind of
9 objection would be uttered in a raised voice. Then that could be
10 expressed by placing an exclamation mark. So I would go back and check
11 whether this was said in anger and that's why the exclamation mark was
12 there.
13 We would check why somebody would put three dots at the end of
14 the sentence. Perhaps I would listen to it again to make sure that those
15 three dots meant that the person who was speaking stopped at that point
16 and made a pause before he continued the conversation.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness, for that explanation. Can I gather, from
18 your answer -- you were talking about reviewing a transcription with an
19 exclamation mark or reviewing a transcription with three dots. Did you
20 closely exercise supervision on your men? Were you hands-on at the
21 facility, helping them?
22 A. Yes. I personally didn't have a specific -- specific work hours,
23 if I can put it that way. I didn't have specific duty hours. It wasn't
24 logical, because I worked by myself on the computer to dispatch and
25 encrypt dispatches. You never knew when a conversation would pop up, so
Page 2912
1 my work hours were unlimited.
2 I spent all of my time, including my free time, in one room where
3 everybody was present, because it was unacceptable for at least one
4 person to be there, other than the person who was supposed to be there on
5 duty anyway. There always had to be somebody who could jump in as a
6 replacement in case a soldier had to go to the bathroom or in case a
7 conversation had to be recorded. Then the person on duty would transfer
8 the conversation from the tape to the note-book in writing, and the
9 assistant, who was ready, would sit at the apparatus and use the reserve
10 recording operator -- apparatus and wait for the next conversation. So
11 you always had to have somebody else present there too.
12 I spent all of my time in that room, so -- except for when I was
13 sleeping. I was there that whole time. And people would use the time
14 when there were no conversations or when there was a lull in the work to
15 find out how the antennas worked, to find out about some frequencies,
16 230 or 270 megahertz. Sometimes we would use that kind of antenna or
17 another kind of antenna. I would explain to them what the point was in
18 switching from one antenna to another. I would make sure that they
19 wouldn't get too relaxed, and that while they were on duty, that they
20 would be concentrated on their work in the highest possible degree.
21 Q. Witness, you just mentioned before that you were responsible for
22 training your men. Can I just ask a few specific questions?
23 Did you train them in how to use the equipment?
24 A. Yes. I already said that at the beginning, that that was the
25 first part of the training, to teach them to operate the equipment
Page 2913
1 manually that we used to tap the communications, how the frequency --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you. Please slow down while
4 giving an answer, because the interpreters and the transcript can't
5 follow you with this speed.
6 Please continue your answer.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I
8 apologise to the interpreters.
9 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Witness.
10 Q. I'd just like to move to -- I've just got a couple more brief
11 questions.
12 You have just been talking about the process of recording,
13 transcribing, typing, and sending reports of intercepted conversations.
14 My question is: During this process, did your men follow any established
15 process or method of work?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you very briefly outline the steps in that process for me,
18 just for the Trial Chamber, please?
19 A. The procedure was for the soldier to sit at his post, with
20 headphones on and paper and pencil ready in case a conversation occurred,
21 any kind of conversation, any kind of sound in the ether. Then he would
22 turn the recording device on to record the conversation. These were
23 mostly UHER devices which were already connected to the radio receiver.
24 And while the conversation was underway, he would follow this
25 conversation. It was possible, if during the conversation a person was
Page 2914
1 named or introduced themselves, then the person would write down who the
2 collocutors were by first and last name.
3 When the conversation was finished, he would switch off the
4 recording device, he would call the duty officer, who would sit at his
5 post, wait for the new conversation while this first soldier transcribe
6 the conversation from the recording device. He would rewind it and then,
7 word by word or two words, he would play and then pause, play and pause,
8 and in that way transcribe everything into the note-book or piece of
9 paper.
10 The important thing was that the conversation was transcribed
11 from the audiotape to handwriting word for word. In case a word was
12 unintelligible or the person who spoke, spoke it too quietly or inaudibly
13 or unintelligibly, at that time perhaps some interference in the
14 communications happened. What the point was, was that this
15 unintelligible word that one could not understand, in that case he would
16 call one or two of the other operators to try together to decipher what
17 that word was. I was called to do this many times in order to make the
18 final decision.
19 If it was absolutely unintelligible, then in parentheses you
20 would always write down that that word was unintelligible. For example,
21 if you could hear the first letter or two letters of that word and you
22 don't hear the rest of the word, then in brackets you would put the
23 remark "Unintelligible," first and second letters are such and such, and
24 then the rest would be filled with dots. In case you couldn't understand
25 two words, then you would say in parentheses "two unintelligible words
Page 2915
1 said," without making any assumptions or guesses that it could be this
2 word or that word, because any erroneous information to people who were
3 working in automatic data processing could mislead them.
4 After a conversation was transcribed, the conversation was
5 replayed, checked again, and the handwriting was then handed over to me.
6 Quite a few times, I had the habit, when retyping the handwritten text,
7 to also check the audiotape because perhaps the soldier missed a letter
8 or two, and in our language some words or some letters, you can steal
9 some colloquial words.
10 How do you steal them? For example, in English you could say,
11 "What up," that kind of thing, and so also in our language you would have
12 the same kind of colloquial language. So a word where a letter was
13 missing at the beginning or at the end, I would check whether that was
14 exactly like that in the audiotape or perhaps my soldier made that kind
15 of error, which he was not supposed to do. In any case, I wanted to
16 check every single detail.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I remind you again to slow down while
18 speaking. And you were asked to answer very --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry. And you were asked to give a very brief
21 answer. It was a quite lengthy answer.
22 Perhaps you should take that into account, Ms. Chittenden.
23 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
25 MS. CHITTENDEN:
Page 2916
1 Q. Witness, I just have three more very brief questions for you. I
2 apologise, if you could just answer them. I'm conscious of the time, and
3 I would like to finish before the break, so we can finish.
4 So, very briefly, can I pick up where you were talking about the
5 operator bringing the handwritten transcription to you. When you typed
6 it out, can you very briefly tell us what you did after that?
7 A. After that, I would take the handwritten document, which is how
8 we referred to it, I would use Editor and type it into the computer,
9 because at the time we used the DOS platform, where the software was
10 called Editor. And at the end, I would recheck the text to see if
11 everything was typed in correctly, and then I would call up the programme
12 for encryption of the document. Once the document was encrypted, I would
13 call up SP 610 version software for the Paket radio which we used to
14 transmit dispatches to automatic data processing.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. Two more questions.
16 In your experience, what would be the maximum time between the
17 time the operator finished transcribing the intercept into the note-book
18 to the time that you typed the intercept and sent it to automatic data
19 processing at your command?
20 A. I apologise, Your Honours. I need a minute or two to answer this
21 question. I'm going to try to be as brief as possible.
22 It's hard to say how long it was from the transcription to the
23 transmission of the conversation. That depended on the length and the
24 intelligibility of the conversation. These were elements that influenced
25 the time required. If it was a short conversation, let's say five or six
Page 2917
1 lines in the handwriting, then the transcription, typing, and the
2 automatic data processing was maybe five or six minutes. The length of
3 time depended on the length of the conversation, the intelligibility of
4 the conversation, how long the soldier needed to transcribe it, to check
5 it, and to give it to me for me to type it.
6 I apologise, Your Honours. I must mention that there were
7 moments when some information that was exceptionally important, and
8 information is as useful -- the more useful, the more it is sent in a
9 timely manner. Sometimes I wouldn't wait to type word for word the text,
10 but I would use the Paket radio chat mode and I would send them a summary
11 in a sentence or two, informing them that a dispatch was picked up
12 indicating that there would be shelling at such and such a place, for
13 example, so that they would be able to inform such and such a location to
14 issue an alert. Later, then I would transcribe the message word for word
15 and dispatch it to the command. This would be done in order to save time
16 and to dispatch the message before the shelling occurred.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have one final question for you.
18 If you can briefly explain, during the whole process, from the
19 recording of the intercepted conversation to its transcription in the
20 note-book, to when the operator brought it to you to type and send in an
21 encrypted form, how important was it to be, very briefly, can you tell
22 us, accurate in your work?
23 A. It was extremely important. I think I've already said that the
24 information is as valuable as it is authentic and timely. So it was very
25 important not only to transmit it quickly, but to transmit it accurately
Page 2918
1 towards the command, because belated information is valueless and
2 inaccurate information is also valueless, because the people up there in
3 the automatic data processing who made databases for certain units,
4 certain movements, certain personnel, could be misled by any piece of
5 inaccurate information.
6 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Witness.
7 Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Ms. Chittenden.
9 We must have the first break now, and after the break,
10 Mr. Tolimir, you may do your cross-examination.
11 We must have the first break now, and resume at 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, before you commence the
15 cross-examination, I have a question to Ms. Chittenden.
16 We have received a huge list of exhibits marked for
17 identification with P numbers, but you didn't tender them today. What
18 are you doing? What is your intention?
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, the P numbers that I, sorry,
20 intend to admit are the ones I read out. So I'm not sure if we have the
21 same list. So it's P502, P503, P504, and P498 -- sorry, P497, P498,
22 P499. And as I foreshadowed in my summary, I think P500, P501, and P505
23 are for your understanding.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then we have them on the record, but there are
25 many others on the list, if I'm not mistaken.
Page 2919
1 MS. CHITTENDEN: On my list, I just have those, but I apologise.
2 Perhaps --
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MS. CHITTENDEN: I just found out. Perhaps it was for another
5 witness. I think there was a mix-up between witness numbers on the
6 filing.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There were many discussions about exhibits not
8 tendered yet, but perhaps I mixed up the two witnesses. Thank you very
9 much.
10 MS. CHITTENDEN: I apologise. Those are the only ones for
11 Witness 117.
12 Can I -- may I also clarify something from the transcript?
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
14 MS. CHITTENDEN: On page 24, line 11, I'm not sure if it was me
15 misspeaking or something in the transcript, but it states "marked
16 intelligible," and that should be "unintelligible."
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment. It was part of the witness
18 summary?
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: That is correct. So it was me speaking, and
20 I think I may have said "intelligible" instead of "unintelligible." I'd
21 like to clarify that for the record.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
23 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you have cross-examination for
25 this witness?
Page 2920
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 I greet all those present, and I wish that this day of
3 trial finish in keeping with God's will, not as I want it to. And I wish
4 all the best to the witness and everyone in the courtroom.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, since we speak the same language, would
7 you please make a pause after each of my questions before you start
8 answering.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up now, please, P497.
10 Page 1, please, also in the native language of the witness.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. We see here the statement you gave on the 22nd and 26th February
13 2007.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This should not be broadcast.
15 Carry on, please.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, tell us, please, where you gave this statement, and did
18 you sign it?
19 A. I see, on the English version, that I signed the statement, and
20 it is indeed my signature. I gave the statement on the 22nd and
21 26th February 2007, but I really don't remember, Your Honours, whether I
22 gave this statement by coming to the Tribunal or elsewhere. I think it
23 was here on the premises.
24 Q. Thank you. Before coming here, did you have any contacts with
25 the representatives of the OTP?
Page 2921
1 A. Yes, I did have contacts with the OTP. Otherwise, I wouldn't be
2 here. I wouldn't have been able to come if they had not arranged it,
3 asked me whether I'm willing to come, and provided me with a visa.
4 Q. If you know the names, with whom did you talk from the Tribunal
5 before coming here in February 2007 to testify?
6 A. I can hardly tell you the names. Was the name Tomasz or
7 something like that? I can't remember.
8 Q. Where was the interview made, and was it recorded?
9 A. You mean talking to them before coming here?
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. That first conversation took place in my place of residence,
12 which I'm not going to name, and it was at 10-, 15-minute exchange.
13 Q. Is there a video or audio-recording of your conversation with
14 that representative that you say was Tomasz?
15 A. I didn't notice anyone turning on any recording device, video or
16 audio.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if you know the English language well
18 enough to sign your statement only in English?
19 A. I don't know the English language that well. But as to the
20 second part of the question about signing a statement in English, I have
21 great confidence in the people who gave the statement to me to sign, and
22 I never for a moment suspected that anyone would mistranslate a document.
23 Q. Did you look through your statement in your mother tongue, and is
24 it identical to the statement in English, so that I can ask you questions
25 based on the version in your mother tongue?
Page 2922
1 A. From what I see, I don't see any differences.
2 Q. Not on the first page.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we call up page 2 of this
4 document in both languages, paragraph 5. Thank you.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].
6 Q. I will read out to you just the first sentence:
7 "When I was first mobilised, I was given the task to set up a
8 radio station in" such and such a place "for the purpose of broadcasting
9 public information."
10 Can you tell me anything about what I've just read out? Is it
11 true that you stated that? Is it correctly quoted?
12 A. My first assignments, once I was mobilised, and in view of the
13 fact that I'm a radio amateur, that I am also handy with electronics, I
14 was contacted by a gentleman from my place of residence, who asked me,
15 the way he put it then, to give him either help or instructions how best
16 to set up a radio station in my place of residence. When I say "radio
17 station," I don't mean a radio station for communication between two
18 persons, but a radio broadcasting station, because by that time my place
19 of residence was under an information blockade already and there was a
20 great inflow of refugees, so a radio station was needed in order to
21 broadcast news and information.
22 Q. Who imposed that information blockade in your place of residence
23 where you set up this station for public broadcasting?
24 A. Who imposed the information blockade, I really don't know, but I
25 know for a fact that the place where I reside was suddenly under an
Page 2923
1 information blockade. And when I say "information blockade," I mean that
2 we were receiving no information whatsoever either from television or
3 radio. This place is geographically positioned in such a way that it is
4 overlooked by a hill on which there was a TV transmitter, a TV repeater.
5 Now, who turned it off and who stopped the broadcasting from the
6 neighbouring repeater station, relay station, to our relay station, I
7 don't know.
8 Q. Just tell the Court, was this relay under the control of the VRS
9 or the BH Army, and which year it was?
10 A. At that time, the place which is between my place of residence
11 and the repeater was a village held by - I don't want to insult anyone by
12 the terminology - held by members of the Serb community, and we had no
13 access to the repeater. After a while, and I can't tell you how long
14 exactly, that repeater fell under the control of the BH Army.
15 Q. Can you tell us the name of that village, and is it currently
16 inhabited by Serbs?
17 A. Your Honours, if I say the name of the village in the location of
18 the repeater, and I thank the gentleman for not telling the name of my
19 place of residence, we were using the term "place of residence." If I
20 identify the place, I will identify myself.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Should we go into closed session for a moment,
22 private?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't need to go into private
24 session. I can withdraw that question.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Page 2924
1 Q. I just want the witness to tell me, if he can, if there are Serbs
2 in that village currently?
3 A. By now, there are again Serbs who have returned, whose houses
4 have been restored.
5 Q. Can you tell us if during the war, when this repeater was
6 controlled by the BH Army, there was any Serb population in that village?
7 A. No.
8 Q. On page 8357 of the Popovic transcript, lines 11 and 12, you said
9 you had conducted training for radio operators; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Whom did you train to operate radio equipment, and when?
12 A. I trained soldiers who were in my section.
13 Q. On page 8359, lines 14 and 15, you said:
14 "I did not have specific working hours. I supervised all the
15 time."
16 Also here, in examination-in-chief, responding to the Prosecutor,
17 you said you supervised the work of soldiers subordinated to you, as well
18 as their training. Can you tell us something about that?
19 A. If I remember well, I said I supervised the work of my soldiers,
20 that I didn't have specific working hours, that I spent most of my
21 time in the workroom - that's how we called it - where the personnel and
22 the equipment were, and, of course, I didn't sleep there. And during my
23 sleep, of course, I did not supervise people.
24 Q. Thank you, you've answered my question. Now, tell me, on the
25 days when you were resting, when you were not around, who sent reports?
Page 2925
1 Because you said that you were the only one who typed, encrypted, and
2 prepared messages for transmission.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Chittenden.
4 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I'd just like to say the witness
5 didn't say on the days he wasn't there. I think that's a
6 mis-characterisation of his evidence.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: He said during sleeping times, he couldn't
8 supervise.
9 MS. CHITTENDEN: That's correct, that's correct.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It has nothing to do with day or night-time.
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: That's correct. That's correct.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you can answer the question, perhaps.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to the gentleman, and
14 the gentleman will understand me. I really have no intention to offend
15 him, but he did say "on the days when I rested." In fact, when I was on
16 duty on the south elevation, there were no days of rest. On leave, my
17 entire unit would go to a place of residence with me to rest. When I
18 said "during rest" --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, may I interrupt you.
20 Mr. Tolimir asked you, in fact, who was sending reports during
21 the time when you were sleeping.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was sleeping, nobody sent
23 reports. If a conversation is intercepted, a soldier would wake me up,
24 and then I would send a report. But that happened very rarely.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
Page 2926
1 Carry on.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for
3 helping us communicate.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. To be quite fair to you and Ms. Chittenden, I will read out from
6 the seventh paragraph, the last sentence, where you say:
7 "I was the only one who typed reports. The reports would then be
8 encoded and sent in encrypted form."
9 That's all I asked, who typed, because you said you were the only
10 person who typed.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I didn't
12 mean to be disingenuous. I'm just asking questions to be of assistance
13 to the Court.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't even try to say that you
15 were being clever and sly, but there should be no playing with words.
16 Of course, I couldn't sleep and type at the same time. I was
17 interrupted a moment ago when I was saying that during the night -- and
18 you know, yourself, that traffic was very rare during the night. It
19 occurred mostly during the day. And if there was something, somebody
20 would wake me up and I would send a report.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you very much. We're going to move to a different topic.
23 And now on page 8368, lines 5-8 from the Popovic case, you said:
24 "I was absent only in September 1994, when I left for training,
25 and also for New Year's 1995."
Page 2927
1 Is that what you said then, do you remember - thank you - and is
2 it correct what you said? Thank you.
3 A. The whole time that I worked on the northern -- on the southern
4 location, the only time that I was absent -- when my group was on duty at
5 the southern location, I was absent twice, in 1994, I think this was in
6 September, when I went for training, and for the New Year's Eve
7 festivities in 1995, beginning of 1996, because of my personal family
8 problems. ^
9 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me whether you had a rank when
10 you were the commander of this department that you were managing? Thank
11 you.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. During the war, did you go for training outside of
14 the B and H Army units?
15 A. During the war, I didn't go anywhere for training outside the
16 B and H Army.
17 Q. And can you please tell us, did you go anywhere abroad, outside
18 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, for training and education on these matters
19 that we are discussing now, monitoring and surveillance of radio
20 communications?
21 A. I never went for any training outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina
22 for the monitoring and listening in of communications. While I was
23 active in the JNA, I did attend such trainings, actually not for
24 monitoring communications, but for radio communications. But never
25 outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Page 2928
1 Q. Thank you. You didn't answer my question about your rank. What
2 was the rank that you held, please?
3 A. I really cannot remember. This was the first basic rank as
4 section commander. I don't know whether that was the rank of squad
5 leader. I think, on the basis of that rank, I could only be in command
6 of a squad.
7 Q. Thank you. And what was your training in Sarajevo that you
8 referred to earlier? Did it have to do with eavesdropping that we are
9 discussing now?
10 A. Yes, it had to do with eavesdropping communications,
11 surveillance. Other than, of course, training, I really cannot remember
12 the name of that subject, but the basic content of that training was work
13 with people, methods of working with people. It didn't have to be
14 communications people exclusively. It could be other personnel,
15 infantrymen. So methods of working with people, how to relate to people,
16 and so on and so forth.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us whether you were trained in
18 the B and H Army by anyone who did not belong to the B and H Army but was
19 from the ranks of some other army or force?
20 A. Yes, I was.
21 Your Honours, in order to avoid anybody from interpreting this in
22 the wrong way, may I be allowed to clarify this?
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't know the names
25 of the people who trained us. I don't know if they were members of the
Page 2929
1 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina or not, because the training was done in
2 civilian clothes, so I really cannot tell whether they were a member of
3 the army or not. One of such trainers, I don't remember his name. I am
4 not going to insult this person on religious grounds. His name was
5 Mujica [phoen]. He died. He was a dedicated Radio Ham operator and was
6 very knowledgeable in that area, and he gave us training on the types of
7 antennas, diagrams of beaming, the angles of beaming, and so on. I
8 assume that he was not a member of the B and H Army because he came to
9 the training in civilian clothing. I knew him from civilian life, and he
10 lived in Sarajevo.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] All right, thank you. This is
12 quite a sufficient answer to the questions that I put.
13 Q. Can you please directly answer this question: Were you ever
14 trained by members of NATO countries or UNPROFOR?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. In the Popovic case, you spoke a lot about automatic
17 data processing units in the corps, and now, during the
18 examination-in-chief - I took notes - you did also talk about the
19 dispatch of Paket messages to the automatic data processing section; is
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes, that is correct. But I would like to make a correction.
22 These are not Paket information batches. Information is something else.
23 But the information was transmitted via the Paket communications method.
24 These were encrypted documents, encrypted texts, that were sent to
25 automatic data processing of the 2nd Corps Data Processing Section, via
Page 2930
1 Paket.
2 Q. Thank you. What I said was correct. Are you able to tell us a
3 little bit more about this Automatic Data Processing Section to whom you
4 sent the information you collected by eavesdropping on the
5 communications?
6 A. I can attempt to tell you what I know about that section. Sir,
7 you have to understand that just like any army, our army, the Army of the
8 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, had some secrets, some data that should
9 not have been known by everyone. As far as I know, the Automatic Data
10 Processing Department was attached to the intelligence organ, and they
11 gathered intelligence data. Our dispatches, the dispatches from the
12 Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit from the northern location - I think that's
13 the name. There were a couple of other locations. I don't need to
14 mention their names. They gathered all the data, and that all was
15 collected by the Automatic Data Processing Unit.
16 The data was automatically processed, which means that they made
17 a kind of library of data for specific things; for people, for units, how
18 simply they would receive a dispatch from us. And then from that
19 dispatch, they would pull out the needed information, and they would
20 enter them into note-books, for example, where they would say, X or Y
21 spoke with his wife. You could see that from one dispatch, the wife's
22 name was such and such. From another dispatch, you could say that XX was
23 the commander of unit YY. Then XX was a commander of some other unit.
24 Then a new data library would be compiled with new information. So based
25 on this information, they would create a kind of mosaic so that they have
Page 2931
1 as many as possible useful pieces of information by unit as needed.
2 Q. All right. Thank you. I think that was a sufficient answer.
3 Can you please tell us whether you sent information only to that
4 intelligence unit or did you also send your information to other users?
5 A. The taped conversations were sent to the automatic data
6 processing. Some information, I think I already mentioned, I think. If
7 there was an order in the text about shelling, then I would use the Paket
8 radio to inform a unit, if they also had Paket radio communications, so
9 that I could let them know that they were going to be shelled. I would
10 send the transcribed, encrypted, entire conversations to the Automatic
11 Data Processing Unit, however. Some pieces of information that had to do
12 with some other locations that came from a transcribed conversation, and
13 that were not time sensitive, then the automatic data processing would
14 send that nonsensitive information to some other units that would find
15 that kind of information useful or that the information related to.
16 Q. In page 8379, lines 23 and 24 of the Popovic case, you say the
17 following, I quote:
18 "When I typed in a file, I would send it immediately to the
19 Automatic Data Processing Unit, and what was left in my archive I would
20 process in order to draw some conclusions."
21 My question is: What conclusions did you draw, who did you send
22 these conclusions to, and were they relevant only for you and for your
23 own use or were they also meant to be used by someone else? Thank you.
24 A. I think that this was also in the JNA, and the same thing was in
25 our army. I had the need for my own needs, not my own personal needs,
Page 2932
1 but as commander of the unit I would have to pull up some information
2 that was useful to me, so this was a partial data processing operation.
3 In order for this to be clear to you and to the Trial Chamber,
4 I'm sorry, Your Honour, that I'm taking up time, but I want to make sure
5 that this is clear, that nobody misunderstands this.
6 For example, if XX calls in to frequency 230 megahertz, this
7 frequency would disappear the next day. Then I would search again, find
8 him on frequency 240 megahertz. This is the type of information that I
9 used. And, believe me, every army, every communications operator, would
10 have in their radio station diary the working frequency, the reserve
11 frequency, the call sign, the reserve call sign. This is information
12 that I included in my partial data processing information, mostly because
13 if I lost a contact, I would be able to search and find them again. I
14 would already have the reserve frequencies noted down, so I wouldn't need
15 to look for that again. I would type in those reserve frequencies into
16 the memory, and one of those would kick in, and it would make my work
17 faster and less complicated.
18 So this is what this partial automatic data processing meant, for
19 me to process data that would be useful later to me in my work.
20 Q. Can you please briefly say, because of our time restraints,
21 whether this processing of data you did on your own initiative or you did
22 it upon the recommendation of your superior, and was this something that
23 you informed your superiors about?
24 A. It was my duty, as a commander, to process this data. Later, in
25 a course for training in Sarajevo in 1994, we were also trained in
Page 2933
1 methods of data processing. I don't recall that I had a written order
2 with the signature of my superior to do this, but in oral conversations
3 and conversations while receiving and handing over duty, the initiative
4 was expressed that we also had to do this kind of partial data
5 processing. But as I said, I don't recall having a written order about
6 this.
7 Q. Thank you. Since you were the commander of an independent unit
8 which was at the facility that you were in command of and that carried
9 out the work you described, did you exchange information with any
10 institution outside of the 2nd Corps and outside of the Automatic
11 Data Processing Unit, or with any other service that was part of the
12 B and H -- within B and H or outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Thank
13 you.
14 A. Any unit or military organisation outside of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina, definitely not. I didn't exchange information outside of my
16 immediate circle of associates. It was quite a narrow area within which
17 we exchanged, not data, this person said that and that. So we didn't
18 exchange information about specific intercepted conversations, but we did
19 ask for help from our neighbouring facility if I lost a frequency or if
20 the signal became very weak. We had devices to measure the strength of a
21 signal, and if this changed drastically, indicating that there were
22 unfavorable weather conditions that damaged the signal, then I would ask
23 a neighbouring facility to scan such and such a signal for its strength
24 so that I would be able to proceed on the basis of that.
25 Q. Can you please tell us here now whether that unit of yours, the
Page 2934
1 Unit for Anti-Electronic Warfare, and you used that title
2 yourself - that's what the unit is called - was it able to eavesdrop on
3 forces of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Army of
4 Republika Srpska, all the conflicting sides in the territory of the
5 former Bosnia and Herzegovina?
6 A. I apologise. I have to try to explain this to you.
7 If our equipment was able to listen in on radio RRU 1 devices or
8 RRU 800 which belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska, then I don't
9 see -- I mean, it would be silly for me to say that these devices could
10 not listen in to the same devices that were in the hands of the Army of
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina. But as far as I know, our army, the Army of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina, did not have -- perhaps it did have a small
13 number of these devices. They might have had a small number of these
14 devices, but we did not eavesdrop on our own units. If there was some
15 witnesses who said something like that, perhaps, Your Honours, sir, in a
16 different context, when there were war actions, combat actions, sometimes
17 we would get an order to monitor our communications.
18 But to monitor our communications, this is something the JNA did
19 and what the members of the Army of Republika Srpska also did. They did
20 it mostly so that they could point out to the responsible people in our
21 own army that our communications operators were not carrying out their
22 duties professionally, that they were being insolent with their work.
23 The enemy forces, and I apologise for saying something like that, that
24 the enemy could get information from them in the same way that we got
25 information from members of the Army of Republika Srpska.
Page 2935
1 Q. Thank you. You've answered my question. Now, tell me, in this
2 counter-electronic warfare, did you jam electronic signals or intercept
3 signals only of the enemy or also one of your units if you noticed that
4 they were leaking information?
5 A. I don't recall that we jammed members of our own army. We did
6 jam the signalsmen of the VRS, but I don't remember jamming our own
7 communications.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if you received any orders -- if you
9 received orders for every instance of jamming or you were able to make
10 the decision yourself to jam participants in radio traffic?
11 A. You see, on the southern location we did not have jamming devices
12 all the time. These jamming devices were sent to our location as
13 required by the superior command in order to act upon intelligence that
14 combat was about to start, and then these devices would be sent, on the
15 eve of that combat, to jam the enemy signal.
16 When we listened in on RRU 800, we didn't jam, because it was
17 pointless to jam the communications from which we derived information. A
18 normal signalsman is smart enough to realise that if he's being jammed,
19 then he is also being monitored and intercepted. It would have been
20 stupid on our part to jam the traffic which provided us with information.
21 Jamming would mostly be done against hand-held radio stations, Motorolas
22 that were used to communicate in the field. And even then, if we were
23 able to make any use of that information, we preferred not to jam it.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up P500.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Page 2936
1 Q. While we are waiting - you'll see this document shortly, it's
2 very brief - it's your report dated 20th March 1995, and in the first
3 sentence -- we still don't have it on the screen. There it is.
4 Can you see now? Are you able to read?
5 Could we enlarge the B/C/S version? Just in case, I will read it
6 out to you when Ms. Chittenden finishes.
7 MS. CHITTENDEN: I'd just like to point out that this should be
8 under seal, and so not broadcast. This is one of the exhibits we
9 enumerated. Thanks.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's correct. The Registry is aware of that.
11 Please carry on.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You say:
14 "I hereby inform you that my Mini-Kobac has been installed and
15 that I can now jam RTTY transmissions.
16 "When I was told a few minutes ago to test the ability to jam
17 frequency 258.275, the signal on this frequency instantly disappeared and
18 has not returned.
19 "I scanned the 232-270 megahertz range and found a new frequency
20 of 247.075 megahertz, which was not registered during the scan last
21 night. The strength of the signal on this frequency was 5 to 9 plus
22 20 dB on the S-metre, signal strength metre, the same as the signal at
23 258.275 megahertz."
24 It's signed your name. I won't read it.
25 Did you write this?
Page 2937
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you install this Mini-Kobac radio set, and did you really
3 engage in jamming, as this document shows?
4 A. Sir, Your Honours, this is my document, bearing my signature, and
5 indeed for a while there was a need to install this equipment to see, in
6 the event things go out of control, how we would fare if we tried to jam
7 these frequencies. That's the purpose of using this Mini-Kobac device.
8 It was a device from the former JNA. It was also a transmitter, and it
9 could cover this range, indeed, 230 to 270 megahertz.
10 Just a moment. It says, "when I was told a few minutes ago to
11 test the ability," so this does not refer to constant jamming. It
12 refers, from what I see in my native language, to testing the ability of
13 the device to jam. So I was asked to test. I tested, and then I
14 reported on the findings.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you are approaching the end of the
16 given time for your cross-examination. You were told that this witness
17 and the next one should finish their testimony today to enable them to
18 return to their places of residence. You and especially the witness, you
19 should be quite brief to finish as soon as possible.
20 Please carry on.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for this
22 warning.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, kindly refrain from giving long answers. Please try to
25 answer my questions briefly, for the reasons stated by the
Page 2938
1 Presiding Judge.
2 Just tell me briefly, did you scan frequencies and participants
3 yourself? Did the radio station scan automatically or you did it
4 manually?
5 A. The device, itself, did the scanning. You would press a certain
6 button or turn a knob, and it would start scanning and stop at a
7 frequency where a signal was discovered. The FM station is such that
8 there is always a signal.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up page 3 of P497.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. That's your statement. And in the meantime, I'm going to ask you
12 another question.
13 We'll see here on this page that you referred to note-books,
14 papers, tapes, et cetera, and how you turned it all over to officers of
15 the 2nd Corps; is that so?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Tell us, please, did you ever, yourself, destroy such papers and
18 note-books or tapes?
19 A. I did, myself, erase tapes, always with prior consultation with
20 one of my superiors from the command. We didn't have these tapes to
21 burn, you know, so sometimes we were forced to erase tapes to re-use
22 them. We mainly erased tapes containing irrelevant conversations like
23 talks with wives or friends, conversations devoid of useful intelligence.
24 Q. So in order to destroy something, you had to ask approval from
25 your superior?
Page 2939
1 A. For the most part, yes.
2 Q. Look at page 8 -- sorry, paragraph 8, line 6. One of the
3 sentences reads:
4 "Although I never saw hard copies, printed versions of these
5 reports," et cetera, et cetera.
7 able to see printed versions of these reports until you came to the
8 offices of the OTP?
9 A. Please let me find this passage and see in which context it was
10 said.
11 Q. It's in line 6. It says:
12 "Although I never saw printed versions of these reports, I
13 recognised these reports as ones I typed and sent out on a daily basis to
14 the Automatic Data Processing Unit myself."
15 Therefore, I'm asking you: Is it true that you first saw these
16 printed reports when the shown by the OTP?
17 A. I think there's one thing you don't understand. There are
18 reports and reports. There are reports about the condition and working
19 order of the devices and equipment used at my location. I would type it
20 up on a computer and send it, without printing it, so I didn't see the
21 printed report. And when I went to the command, I never needed to tell
22 anyone, Oh, please give me the hard copy of that report I sent earlier,
23 just to see what it looks like. So reports of that kind, I never saw in
24 hard copy because I never printed them for my own files. And whatever
25 exchanges I had the command had nothing to do with the reports I sent. I
Page 2940
1 talked about other things.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Chittenden.
3 MS. CHITTENDEN: I'd just like to clarify for the record that the
4 batch of reports he's referring to, Mr. Tolimir, is P505, just to
5 clarify. And if the witness would like to be shown that, but I'm not
6 sure that that's necessary.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
8 Please carry on.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. I'm not preempting anything. I'm just trying to understand what
11 you are saying, because in response to a question from the Prosecutor,
12 Ms. Chittenden, would you give the same answers to the same questions
13 that were asked in the Popovic case, you said: "Yes." I read that from
14 your statement -- from your evidence. That is evidence in that case.
15 I'm just asking you again. Did you see any printed versions of
16 your reports before you came to the OTP? Is it really true that you
17 never saw your own reports typed up, regardless of the reason?
18 A. I didn't see those typed-up reports in our own archives.
19 Q. Thank you. Are there at all in the archives of the BH Army any
20 of your reports? Do they exist ? Did you see them before shown them --
21 before you were shown them by your own intelligence people or the OTP?
22 A. I suppose they were filed, and they should be there. Archives
23 are supposed to be kept for some time. Sometimes - and I don't know
24 whether you have a copy of those reports that Ms. Chittenden just
25 mentioned - there would be in the report a list of materiel and
Page 2941
1 equipment, or I would write in a report I needed new batteries because
2 the old batteries are used up. And when I came to the command the next
3 time after sending such a report, I would say, perhaps to an officer,
4 Could you please give me that report I sent, so that on the basis of it I
5 could get these batteries.
6 Q. I didn't ask you about correspondence between you and your
7 command. I'm asking you about these intercepts that you mentioned. If
8 that is your answer, I'm happy with it. We won't waste any more time.
9 Is it true that you first saw them at the OTP offices?
10 A. I don't know. Maybe out of a thousand papers, there was one that
11 I really saw for the first time at the OTP. There were many papers in
12 which I wrote to the command about the things I needed.
13 Q. Please, I have no ill intentions. You are a commanding officer,
14 and I want to get information from you that I can use later when your
15 underlings come here to testify. I need it to get insight into the work
16 of your group at the southern location.
17 Thank you for answering my questions. On behalf of the Defence,
18 thank you for all the answers. Thank you for your fair treatment.
19 Mr. President, I have completed my cross-examination. Thank you
20 for your assistance, too.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for being fair in your
22 examination. And all these blessings, I am not offended, although I am
23 of different faith. And the gentleman knows that there is only one God,
24 so no offence.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this very appreciated conversation.
Page 2942
1 Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.
2 Ms. Chittenden, do you have re-examination?
3 MS. CHITTENDEN: I don't, Your Honours. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, you will be pleased that concludes your
5 questioning, your evidence for today. You are free now to return to your
6 normal activities and to your place of residence. Thank you for your
7 attendance here, and you are free now to leave The Hague. But please
8 wait so that you are -- when you get up, you will be protected, wait for
9 the screens to be shut down. Thank you again.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: Mr. President, if I may be excused. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, of course. Have a nice afternoon.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Welcome, Mr. Thayer.
15 Mr. Thayer, is the next witness ready?
16 MR. THAYER: I believe so, Mr. President. I think he's a little
17 under the weather, just to give the Trial Chamber and the parties a
18 heads-up. He does have -- in addition to a flight he needs to catch, he
19 has a doctor's appointment, I believe, at 1415. He arrived sick, and
20 he's gotten a little worse. But he's fit to testify, as I understand.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then I would like to ask both parties to be very
22 brief in questioning, especially the Prosecution, because it is a
23 92 ter witness.
24 MR. THAYER: We'll comply.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before the witness is being brought in, I would
Page 2943
1 like to raise a matter which I mixed up with the last witness.
2 If I understand your information given to the Registry correctly,
3 you will not use all the documents previously indicated with this
4 witness. Is that correct?
5 MR. THAYER: I will not be showing those -- all those exhibits.
6 If that is Your Honour's question, that is correct. There are one or two
7 I will seek to show, but the rest I will tender as either part of the
8 witness's prior testimony or in order to assist the Trial Chamber in
9 making sense of either the Popovic transcript or the underlying
10 Blagojevic transcript.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And, in fact, all of them will be tendered -- in
12 fact, they are already tendered by written submissions last year; is that
13 correct?
14 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President, with the exception, I believe,
15 of two original note-books, the portions of which were shown to the
16 witness in Blagojevic, but I would like to show him one of the
17 original -- actually, both of the original note-books and offer those as
18 well.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 Good afternoon, sir. Please wait a moment so the screens should
22 be opened first.
23 Welcome to the Tribunal and good afternoon, again.
24 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is
25 shown to you now.
Page 2944
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
2 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
3 and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: PW-035
5 [The witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, and now please sit down.
7 There are protective measures in place for you. Your name will
8 not be mentioned, there's a pseudonym, and your face will be distorted.
9 I suppose Mr. Thayer has some questions for you.
10 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
12 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. I would just like to you look at your computer screen, please.
15 MR. THAYER: And if we could have P513 displayed on e-court, the
16 pseudonym sheet.
17 Q. I would ask if you could confirm to the Trial Chamber that you
18 see your name on the computer screen underneath the code "PW-035."
19 A. I can see it.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is that your name?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my name.
22 MR. THAYER:
23 Q. Witness, do you recall testifying over the course of two days in
24 this building in December of 2006?
25 A. I do.
Page 2945
1 Q. And did you recently listen to all of that testimony which was in
2 the Popovic case as well as your Blagojevic testimony?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you attest before this Trial Chamber that all of that
5 testimony fairly and accurately reflects what you said during both
6 trials, and in particular the Popovic trial?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Finally, sir, can you attest before this Trial Chamber that were
9 you asked the same questions today that you were asked in 2006 in the
10 Popovic case, that your answers would be the same?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender P511 and
13 P512, the witness's Popovic testimony, under seal and public version
14 respectively.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received.
16 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, at this time I'd like to read the
17 92 ter summary for the witness, and I think it can be in open session for
18 its entirety.
19 In the Popovic case, the witness's testimony from the Blagojevic
20 trial was admitted as his 92 ter statement. A summary of the witness's
21 relevant testimony in Blagojevic is set forth at pages 5455 to 5459 of
22 the Popovic transcript, and the most relevant parts of the Blagojevic
23 testimony, which was summarised in Popovic, are as follows:
24 Prior to 1994, the witness worked as an intercept operator at the
25 northern site, and in the spring of 1994, he was transferred to the
Page 2946
1 southern site, where he worked until the end of the war. The witness did
2 the same job at the southern location as he did at the northern location,
3 and both locations used similar or the same equipment. The southern
4 location was a higher elevation than the northern location, and,
5 therefore, the received signal was clearer.
6 To save a little bit of time, Your Honours, I'll skip the summary
7 concerning the process and procedure that the witness employed to
8 intercept, transcribe, and transmit the intercepts at the southern site.
9 That process is summarised at the transcript page 5455 to 5459 of the
10 Popovic transcript. And I'll just move ahead to save a little bit of
11 time on that, but it's all there.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, this kind of summary you have now
13 done, by skipping the description of the whole process, is very well
14 appreciated.
15 MR. THAYER: Okay. Hint taken, Mr. President.
16 The witness recognised an intercepted conversation in his
17 handwriting in intercept note-book 22, as well as a print-out of that
18 transcript. He then identified two other transcriptions of the same
19 conversation, which was intercepted by two other operators at another
20 location.
21 The witness then recognised a second intercepted conversation in
22 his handwriting in intercept note-book number 103, as well as a print-out
23 of that transcript. In Popovic, the witness noted that two lines from
24 his note-book transcript were missing from the print-out. When the audio
25 of that intercept was played in court, the witness heard the two lines
Page 2947
1 which were missing from the print-out, but which he had, in fact,
2 transcribed in the note-book. The witness also noted that in order to
3 save time, he did not transcribe some of the preliminary conversation
4 between Obrenovic and the operator and the first greeting between
5 Obrenovic and Krstic, nor some lines which were repeated by the speakers.
6 None of his omissions affected the meaning of the transcript, however.
7 In Popovic, the witness further testified that sometimes he wrote
8 the date in the note-book and sometimes he did not, and he was not
9 troubled if he did not put the date in the note-book because he believed
10 that the date was entered into the computer.
11 The witness was also shown the original note-book 22. And when
12 asked whether or not the following markings, "1 GEN 2001," was on the
13 cover of that note-book when it was initially manufactured or whether it
14 was placed there some time later, the witness stated that it was placed
15 on the note-book when it was manufactured and that the intercept
16 operators could not have done it.
17 That concludes my summary.
18 Q. Now, Witness, as I was looking at your Popovic testimony
19 yesterday, I noted something in it that I didn't have a chance to ask you
20 about, and I just want to follow up on one thing from the transcript that
21 seemed unclear to me. And this is at transcript page 5464 to 5465 of the
22 Popovic transcript.
23 You were asked about comparing -- or you were asked to compare
24 the note-book version with the print-out version, and your answer was:
25 "My conclusion is that my handwritten version of this document
Page 2948
1 resembles the other one and that the data is the same, the one that I
2 wrote in my handwriting. And then there is the heading that we used to
3 always put on that location on the computer, so this document resembles
4 that format. And I can tell you that it is most likely from ..."
5 And then you identify the southern location, and you say:
6 "I can't confirm that with 100 per cent certainty but it
7 certainly resembles that format."
8 Then Judge Agius asked you a question, and he said:
9 "You are using - or at least that is the interpretation that we
10 are receiving - the word 'resembles.' Why are you using the word
11 'resembles' and not is exactly the same?"
12 And then your answer was -- and this is where to me it is a
13 little confusing in the transcript. Your answer in the transcript is:
14 "I can tell you that my handwriting and this document are
15 identical to some minor errors in the typed document."
16 So I'm just asking you if you can clarify your answer there, just
17 so that the transcript is fully comprehensible.
18 A. Well, if I have time, I would prefer to look at the documents.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak up.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably it's not the same, because
21 I dropped some words in the telegram, and the person who typed, when he
22 types, he would call me or the person who actually received the telegram.
23 Then we would agree, and then he would type in what I would read out to
24 him. And probably I didn't read out or didn't manage to tell him --
25 actually, it was his task to call me if something was unclear to him, and
Page 2949
1 then together we would agree -- or we would listen to the tape again.
2 Then we would type up the conversation as accurately as possible so that
3 he could send it.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, could you please move a little bit further
5 to the microphone. Thank you.
6 MR. THAYER: Okay.
7 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Do you recall whether, at the southern
8 location, you had the occasion to print out hard copies of the print-outs
9 that you've been shown during the previous trials?
10 A. I don't believe that I typed those documents during that whole
11 period that I was there. I did substitute for the person who was typing
12 because he couldn't or he wasn't there, but my documents were typed by
13 another guy.
14 Q. Okay. My question was: Do you recall whether - let me put it
15 this way - you ever saw a hard copy of one of these print-outs that
16 you've been shown during the last trials, whether at the time, at the
17 southern location, you saw hard-copy versions of the print-outs that were
18 done on the laptop?
19 A. I never saw that, because we didn't have a printer at our
20 premises, and there was no need to do that, either, because all the
21 printed documents were sent from the computer to our command.
22 Q. And, sir, did you ever have the occasion to see one of these
23 typewritten versions that we referred to as the print-outs? Did you ever
24 have occasion to actually see it on the screen of the computer at the
25 southern location?
Page 2950
1 A. Yes, I had the opportunity to see that often. Even I typed the
2 documents on two or three occasions when that person was away. I had the
3 permission to do that, so I did do that plenty of times.
4 Q. Okay. And based on those occasions, what can you tell the
5 Trial Chamber about the hard-copy print-outs that you've seen in the
6 prior trials and what you, yourself, saw on the screen of the computer,
7 in terms of whether they look the same or look different, share the same
8 characteristics or not? What can you tell the Trial Chamber about that?
9 A. I can say with certainty that the versions that we printed were
10 versions that I saw later when I came here during preparation for my
11 testimony. These are the versions. We had special forms in the computer
12 which we would use. We would change the date and enter our own data from
13 the telegram. And these versions are identical to the ones that I saw.
14 MR. THAYER: Okay, I'd like to hand you up a couple of items,
15 with the usher's assistance, please.
16 Q. The first thing I'd like you to pay attention to is a blue
17 plastic booklet. And just so you can avoid having to go through the
18 English translations, I've placed little yellow stickies on the documents
19 in your own language. If you could just look at tab 1 and tab 2, and
20 tell the Trial Chamber what those tabs contain.
21 A. The documents marked with yellow stickies -- well, this is a copy
22 of the telegram, copied from the book that we filled in at my southern
23 location. And this is my handwriting. I can recognise it.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, could you indicate which P number --
25 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President.
Page 2951
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- this document relates to?
2 MR. THAYER: The tab 1 is P506, and tab 2 is P507.
3 Q. And if you could go to tab 2, sir.
4 A. This is also a copy of the telegram from the note-book that we
5 used at my location. I recognise my handwriting here as well.
6 Q. And there should be an eight-digit number at the top of the page
7 that's in your handwriting. If you could just read that into the record,
8 sir.
9 A. I'm sorry. Can you explain to me exactly which number?
10 Q. If you're looking at tab 2, at the document that's in your
11 handwriting --
12 A. Yes. It's number 084430 [as interpreted], if that's the one
13 you're talking about.
14 Q. 00804430. And just for the clarity of the record, if you could
15 go back to tab 1 again. That's the first intercept in your own
16 handwriting. You've identified it as yours. If you could just read into
17 the record what the eight-digit number is there.
18 A. 00804535.
19 Q. Now, I'd like you to look at the original note-book -- the
20 original intercept note-book that you have underneath that blue packet.
21 You were given two of them, and there's one that's marked "Note-book 22."
22 This is P00440, for the record.
23 MR. THAYER: But if we could have P506 placed on e-court, please,
24 for just a moment.
25 Q. Before we start focusing on P506, I'd just ask you to look at the
Page 2952
1 original note-book in your hand.
2 MR. THAYER: And why don't we put up P00440 while he's doing
3 this, and we'll look at 506 in a second.
4 Q. Do you recognise what this is, sir?
5 A. This is the note-book where we wrote down the intercepted
6 conversations, where we wrote them down.
7 Q. Now, looking at the handwritten transcripts which you wrote out,
8 as well as the print-outs, can you give the Trial Chamber some idea
9 approximately how soon after you intercepted the conversation, let's say
10 the one that's in this book, which is the one behind tab 1, how soon
11 after you intercepted that conversation off the airwaves did you take
12 down that handwritten intercept? And this will be my last question
13 before the break.
14 A. This all depended on how important we thought the conversation
15 was. It was important if new names of officers appeared, or if there was
16 some orders that were important were there, or if there were some actions
17 there by the enemy army, if some actions were underway, that dispatch or
18 telegram would then be recorded first, depending on how long the
19 conversation lasted. They had five, ten, fifteen minutes. Then after
20 that, we would need approximately 15 to 20 minutes to transcribe
21 everything from the audiotape, to copy it into the note-book that I'm
22 holding in my hand. After that, if I concluded that this was a more
23 important conversation, I would call the person, if he wasn't already in
24 the room, who was entrusted with typing it into the computer. I would
25 dictate; he would type. He also needed some 15 minutes or so to type it
Page 2953
1 all in. And then when he was finished, he would send it, after
2 encryption, to the command. So that would be the time from the receipt
3 to the transmission of a particular telegram.
4 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Witness.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 I understand it's a convenient time for the second break. We
7 must, on technical reasons, now have the second break.
8 We adjourn and resume five past 1.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.10 p.m.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Witness, I'm going to cut my examination further to make sure you
14 get out of here on time.
15 MR. THAYER: The first thing I'd like to put up on the screen is
16 P00440. That's the original note-book number 22.
17 Q. And, sir, I'd ask you to take a look at the original note-book
18 that you have there before you, that's marked with the number 22 and
19 which has the intercept that you spoke about earlier at tab 1 of your
20 booklet, just for the record, Colonel Beara complaining to General Krstic
21 that Furtula didn't carry out the boss's order.
22 Sir, if you could, just look at the cover, please, of that
23 note-book.
24 A. All right.
25 Q. In the Popovic case, you were asked by the attorney for
Page 2954
1 Colonel Beara about the notations -- the markings that we see on the
2 cover there. It's a phrase which is repeated, "1 GEN 2001." We can see
3 it. They run horizontally and vertically, if we're looking on the screen
4 here. And you were specifically asked by the lawyer for Colonel Beara,
5 in the last trial, whether you or any of your intercept
6 operators/colleagues placed those markings on there or whether that
7 note-book was produced or manufactured with those phrases on the cover.
8 Do you recall that, those questions and your answers, sir?
9 A. Yes, I remember that question. I also remember the answer.
10 Now, when I look at this line and these numbers here again, I'm
11 still thinking it's the university group, that they were meeting again
12 after 10 years, or some other anniversary, just like we do. Those who
13 were using this note-book, they put it in, this "1st Generation 2001."
14 That's what it could mean. At least that's what I suppose. If we -- we
15 wouldn't have done that ourselves this time. I believe these numbers and
16 letters are part of the note-book itself.
17 Q. Okay. And when you're referring to the university group, I take
18 it you're referring to this pink animal. I respectfully disagree with my
19 colleague, Mr. Vanderpuye. He's identified it as a chipmunk. I firmly
20 believe that is a pink bear on the cover. But I presume that is who you
21 are referring to, sir. Correct?
22 A. Yes, I mean this picture, a pink bear, right.
23 Q. Now, it has been suggested, sir, that these markings indicate
24 that what is written inside that note-book was not written at the time
25 these intercepts were taken, that is, in July of 1995, and that, in fact,
Page 2955
1 this note-book and others were fabricated later, after the relevant
2 time-period in this case. What do you have to say to the Trial Chamber
3 about that suggestion, sir?
4 A. I can only say that it would be silly.
5 Q. And would it change your testimony, sir, if someone came into
6 court and showed you an expert report that concluded that the note-book
7 that you're holding was fabricated, in terms of its contents, that those
8 intercept -- handwritten intercept transcripts in there were put in there
9 after July 1995? Would it make a difference to your testimony if someone
10 showed you an expert report that came to that conclusion?
11 A. No difference, never.
12 MR. THAYER: Now, with the usher's assistance, I would just like
13 to show you two more documents very quickly.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And could the original note-book the witness was
15 testifying about be shown to the Chamber and to Mr. Tolimir.
16 MR. THAYER: Absolutely, Mr. President. And I believe you've
17 seen the pink bear before, and I'll be happy to hand it up again for your
18 inspection and for the accused's inspection.
19 Q. Now, sir, do you recall testifying in the Blagojevic case about
20 two other intercept operators who also captured the conversation which
21 you wrote down about Colonel Beara complaining to General Krstic that he
22 didn't have enough men? Do you recall being shown excerpts from two
23 other note-books in the Blagojevic case from two other intercept
24 operators who also listened to that same conversation and who noted
25 slightly different times? Do you remember that testimony, sir?
Page 2956
1 A. Yes, I remember.
2 Q. Now, sir, if you would look at the note-book that's marked "91,"
3 and there's a green sticky on one of the pages.
4 And for e-court purposes, that is 506 -- P506E.
5 Can you tell the Trial Chamber what we're looking at? There's a
6 time of 0957 hours in the upper left-hand corner. Just briefly, what is
7 this?
8 A. It's the time when the tape-recorder was turned on to record this
9 conversation.
10 Q. And do you recognise the content of this conversation?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What does it appear to you to be?
13 A. It's the same intercept, identical to the one I intercepted at
14 the southern location.
15 Q. And we see here that only one side of the conversation has been
16 recorded. Can you just very briefly tell the Trial Chamber -- based on
17 your experience, can you explain the difference between what you heard
18 and what this other operator heard?
19 A. I can. It happened not once; it happened quite often. My
20 location was more elevated by about 400 metres, and that's one of the
21 reasons why we were able to hear both ends of the conversation with a
22 louder signal and a clearer signal. The location that intercepted this
23 is by 400 metres lower, and it's possible they did not have a good line
24 towards the antennas and the transmitters used by these gentlemen who are
25 talking. That means that if the eavesdropping device is not in the same
Page 2957
1 line as the antenna, the signal can be heard very feebly, especially if
2 the location is lower. With my location, you don't even need a straight
3 line.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you, Witness. Now, if you would put that note-book
5 to the side for a moment.
6 And you worked at both the northern and southern locations. Let
7 me just ask you: The original note-book that you have there that's
8 marked number 91, and the one that's underneath it that's marked
9 number 24, are those the same types of note-books that you used at both
10 locations, sir?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, very quickly, if you could pick up the one that's marked
13 number 24. That's the other one that you have there.
14 And if we could look at P506G, please.
15 And I just turn your attention to a tabbed page.
16 A. All right.
17 Q. And do you see an intercept with the time of 0955 hours?
18 A. I see it.
19 Q. And what is that, sir? What does it appear to you to be?
20 A. It appears to be the same intercept, the same conversation I
21 intercepted, with slight differences. The participants in the
22 conversation are the same, the time is more or less the same, with the
23 difference of a couple of minutes, the same frequency, so it must be the
24 same conversation that I intercepted and noted down in my note-book.
25 Q. And was that operator able to intercept the entire conversation,
Page 2958
1 sir?
2 A. Most of it, yes. I even see here X and dots, which means that he
3 was not able to receive that, but he did receive a lot of it from both
4 ends of the conversation.
5 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Witness. I have no further
6 questions.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer.
8 MR. THAYER: To save time, Mr. President, perhaps the tendering
9 could be postponed until later.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, that is a very good suggestion.
11 I have to apologise, especially for Mr. Tolimir, that I was five
12 minutes delayed because of another commitment. But we can sit until
13 10 minutes before 2.00.
14 Mr. Tolimir, do you have cross-examination?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 My greetings to the witness.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. If you have a problem, because I have heard that you have seen a
20 doctor, I can give up on this cross-examination so you don't need to come
21 back. Just tell me if you are able to answer questions. If you are, I
22 will ask a couple of questions, because we can get the same answers by
23 questioning some of your colleagues.
24 A. It's okay that you continue.
25 Q. I will then pick up from the same document shown to you before,
Page 2959
1 506.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it can be brought back up, and
3 I'll try to make it quick. 506 is the document for e-court, and there is
4 a letter G. It was on the screen a moment ago. I can see it.
5 Could you now show the same conversation as intercepted by the
6 other operator, P506B. Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].
8 Q. We can see both conversations now on the screen, both intercepts,
9 and I'd like to ask: Did you turn on your tape-recorder at 9.55, the
10 same as the other operator?
11 A. I turned on my tape-recorder at the time that I recorded.
12 Q. What is that time, for the record?
13 A. If I remember well, it was 9.57.
14 Q. And what's written on this document?
15 A. "1000."
16 Q. Somebody removed the document, but never mind.
17 This time difference of five minutes, could it be waiting or
18 could it account for the difference of a few words between the intercepts
19 of the other operator and yours?
20 A. The connection has to be made at the switchboard, and the
21 switchboard operator sometimes waits for up to five minutes to connect,
22 sometimes even ten minutes, before the conversation actually starts.
23 Q. So could it be missing from your intercept? Because within five
24 minutes, a lot can be said. Could that be the difference between your
25 intercept and the one of the other operator?
Page 2960
1 A. Well, we never, between us, adjusted our clocks, the other
2 operator and I.
3 Q. But tell me, is it possible that with a five-minute difference in
4 timing, you record absolutely the same conversation?
5 A. It could have easily, as I explained, at the same time. Only the
6 clocks could have been out of sync by five minutes, although maybe
7 another operator switched on only in the middle of the conversation.
8 Q. Can you just say, for the transcript, whether the difference of
9 five minutes is real between the other operator and you?
10 A. I see here there is a five-minute difference.
11 Q. So you think the difference is five minutes? Thank you. Yes or
12 no? Thank you. Can you please just say that for the transcript?
13 A. Yes, I see that there is a difference of five minutes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look on -- show on
16 the screen 1D142, please.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Did Ms. Stefanie Frease speak with you?
19 A. Yes, she did.
20 Q. And did you give her a statement and sign a statement that you
21 gave to her?
22 A. Yes, I did sign a statement.
23 Q. Did you sign this paper that she's showing here as a report of
24 the interview with you?
25 A. Yes.
Page 2961
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show the signature of
2 the witness on this document. If we can scroll up, please.
3 Is there a version in the language the witness understands so
4 that you can show it together with the document in English?
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You can see both of these reports, and there is no signature
7 anywhere. Can you tell us where your signature is?
8 A. Well, I can't explain that.
9 Q. Did the Prosecutor ever offer you or ask you to sign a statement?
10 A. I don't remember if they did or didn't. Perhaps at the
11 beginning, the first time that I came, but these last times that I came,
12 no.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there another page of this document? Could we
14 go to the last page? And it should not be broadcast.
15 Please carry on.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. We see that the document, this report on the conversation with
19 you, was not signed in either version. Did you sign this or not?
20 A. Since my signature is not on this document, then all I can say is
21 that probably at that time I didn't sign it, because if I had signed it,
22 the signature would be on the piece of paper. I don't see it here, if
23 this is the original paper. If this is the original that was given to me
24 by Ms. Frease, there is no signature.
25 Q. Can you briefly describe to us the difference between the
Page 2962
1 antennas on the northern and southern locations? Was there a difference
2 in antennas or did you have the same antennas?
3 A. Sir, I think that our antennas were similar. At the southern
4 location, we had additional stronger antennas, factory-produced ones,
5 even, while at the northern location we, ourselves, made the antennas,
6 and I think we only had one factory-built one. But the antennas were the
7 same or similar, because they were received -- they were used for the
8 receipt of -- for the reception of similar or same equipment used by the
9 Army of Republika Srpska.
10 Q. Thank you. In the Popovic case, in the summary of your testimony
11 which was a bit more detailed than the one that was read to us here, on
12 page 5457 said -- you said, I quote -- actually, the Prosecutor said,
13 lines 8 and 9, transcript page 5457:
14 "It was left up to them to decide, upon their own discretion,
15 about the relevance of a document."
16 Can you tell us, for the transcript, whose discretion was it that
17 was a factor in deciding the relevance of a document?
18 A. Operators, us, were allowed to decide that, but we were told what
19 would constitute an important conversation. An important conversation
20 was if new names appears on the lines, on the network, if an order of
21 certain officers was recorded, picked up and recorded. If anything that
22 we felt was important, except for family conversations by officers or
23 just greetings, if anything new came up that we managed to hear and
24 record, anything that was already not in our database at the centre, we
25 would then decide to give that priority and send it on.
Page 2963
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
3 MR. THAYER: Just briefly, Mr. President.
4 I think the witness understood the question after all, but the
5 citation from the record was incorrect. The word "relevance of a given
6 document" was used. It was "relevance of a given conversation," just so
7 there's no confusion about whether we're talking about documents or
8 conversations. And as I said, the witness understood the question, and
9 that's what's important.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. From what I recall, I
13 asked the question about the relevance of the given transcript. Perhaps
14 it was translated differently. But you know English so you can check
15 that back in the transcript. Thank you.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. In order to finish with this question, which is not that relevant
18 anyway, can you please tell us the criteria upon which you decided on the
19 relevance of the intercepts? Were they mostly the conversation of the
20 participants or something else?
21 A. It was not only the conversation that was a deciding factor. The
22 frequency also was important, if somebody was using a telephone that
23 belonged to a known name of an officer. It wasn't a rule that it had to
24 be done like that, but we would just pass it on if something new appeared
25 that could help our database at the central centre.
Page 2964
1 Q. Thank you. Today, and also during your testimony in the Popovic
2 case, the Prosecutor said that sometimes you did enter the date into the
3 note-book, and sometimes you did not, and that it wasn't a problem if the
4 date was not entered into the note-book because you believed that it was
5 known, it was evident. Is that correct or not?
6 A. Yes, it's true that we did not always enter the dates into the
7 note-book.
8 Q. Now, can you tell us, why would the date of an intercept in the
9 majority of cases not be entered into the note-book?
10 A. The communications that we decided were important were sent for
11 typing immediately, and the operator -- the typist who typed them in had
12 to put the date in and send the document. So I wasn't really bothered by
13 dates when I was writing in my own note-book. What was important was
14 that the telegram had a date that was typed, and that was then sent to
15 the central point.
16 Q. Did you type the texts in the order in which they are in the
17 note-book or did you first type out the more significant intercepts,
18 followed by less significant ones?
19 A. Yes, it's exactly the way you said. The most important
20 intercepts were typed out immediately, while the others that we
21 considered were not as important were typed out only at the end of the
22 day and sent in the overall report.
23 Q. And did that affect the time when a certain intercept was
24 recorded as having taken place or was this something that was done later?
25 A. I don't know, really, whether this had an effect on the recorded
Page 2965
1 time, but I can tell you that what we typed from the note-books, that was
2 that, and it was the job of those in the database to deal further with
3 that. So we didn't really bother to deal with that very much.
4 Q. All right. Since you mentioned the note-books, can you please
5 tell us whether these note-books were certified? Was there some sort of
6 stamp or log number in them that was written? Was this done before the
7 note-books were issued for use or was that done by the person who used
8 the book?
9 A. Actually, I don't remember exactly how that worked. The
10 commander could probably tell you, the commander of the section that was
11 entrusted with protocol matters and also who was in charge of collecting
12 them once they were filled in, and then he would send them on to the
13 centre.
14 Q. All right. Now we're talking about the note-books. You said
15 that a sample of your handwriting was taken from you to see if that
16 matched the handwriting in the books that you said you filled in. Was
17 this sample ever examined by an expert, handwriting expert, and was it
18 ever authenticated in some way?
19 A. I know that I provided a sample of my handwriting. I don't know
20 exactly which year. After that, nobody really told me anything about
21 that. I think that some people were probably in charge of recognising or
22 not recognising that particular handwriting sample.
23 Q. Thank you. In your first answer in the cross-examination today,
24 you said that you used to type the documents and that another guy would
25 type your transcripts in one case. Do you recall saying that?
Page 2966
1 A. Yes. I also said that I typed in the intercepts into the
2 computer on a couple of occasions because the person who usually did that
3 wasn't there.
4 Q. So let us note there were several of you who typed in the
5 intercepts at the southern location?
6 A. Yes, there were at least two of us who did the typing.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Thank you, I apologise. Can we look at the note-book in e-court.
9 This is Exhibit -- thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is the number? We don't have it on the
11 screen, for the sake of the record.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. P440. Thank you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. We can see the note-book on the screen. I have it right now; I'm
16 holding it in my hand. And you said that probably this was something
17 that was agreed with them, just like we agreed that we would meet in
18 2001. Did I understand you correctly?
19 A. Well, it's just one of the endless possibilities. That doesn't
20 have to be true at all.
21 Q. Thank you. But does this perhaps refer to -- maybe is it
22 possible that the generation of 2000, can they decide to -- decide
23 something for generation 2001? Can generation 2000 meet in 2005 or 2006,
24 or in reverse, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001?
25 A. Well, I don't know that. But I know that my high school class
Page 2967
1 meets every 10 years, so I went on that basis.
2 Q. Can you please tell us what generation you are?
3 A. Which generation, high school or some other school?
4 Q. Well, it doesn't matter which school. Just can you give us any
5 generation?
6 A. I completed school in 1978.
7 Q. So could we say that you are Generation 1978?
8 A. I can say that for my high school graduation year.
9 Q. Would it be possible, then, that you would publish, five years in
10 advance, some slogan and that we would imprint them on booklets? By that
11 time, you would already be enrolled in university or something like that?
12 A. Well, I gave that answer as a possibility, one of countless
13 possibilities, so what you are asking me is -- I mean, I can't even
14 answer that. Would we do this, would we do that, would we do this
15 five years in advance or not? I mean, really.
16 Q. Thank you. I apologise. Can you please tell us, for the
17 transcript, whether this is note-book 22, and does it not state on it
18 "1st Generation of 2001" on it?
19 A. I can say that it says "1 GEN 2001," and this is marked as
20 note-book 22.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 I would not wish to torture you any longer. Thank you very much
23 for the answers you gave. I am thanking you on behalf of the Defence,
24 and thank you for coming regardless of your current situation, despite of
25 certain infirmities. Thank you for coming to testify. I wish you a safe
Page 2968
1 trip, and may God bless you. And on behalf of the Defence, I would just
2 like to say that we don't have any more questions for you.
3 Your Honours, thank you very much. The Defence has completed its
4 cross-examination of this witness. Thank you, thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.
6 Mr. Thayer, do you have re-examination?
7 MR. THAYER: Very briefly, Mr. President.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:
9 Q. Witness, in the answer to one of the General's first
10 questions -- he put upside by side two of the intercepts about Beara
11 asking -- or complaining to General Krstic about not enough men, and in
12 one of your answers you said that, if you remember correctly, the time on
13 your intercept was "0957 hours."
14 MR. THAYER: And if we could just have P506A on the screen, just
15 so that there's no confusion on the record. Again, that's P506A.
16 Q. Do you see what's on the screen, sir? And if you do, can you
17 identify what it is?
18 A. Yes, I see I wrote here "1000," so it's 1000 hours, one 0 and
19 then two small 0s. So it wasn't the way the gentleman said. I didn't
20 have the document in front of me. I said that it was D57 [as
21 interpreted], but actually what it says here now in front of me is
22 correct.
23 Q. Okay. I just wanted to clarify that.
24 And, sir, do you read or speak any Italian, by any chance? Just
25 very briefly.
Page 2969
1 A. No.
2 MR. THAYER: All right. No further questions for you at this
3 time, then. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
5 You will be pleased now this concludes your questioning, and you
6 have the chance to return to your place of residence in a timely manner.
7 Thank you for your attendance here and for the assistance you could give
8 the Chamber and the parties. You are free now to return to your normal
9 activities.
10 Mr. Thayer, we are running out of time. How should we deal with
11 the exhibits and the numbers? Could that be done perhaps by e-mail with
12 the Registry?
13 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this is, for the time being, the best way
15 to deal with it, or we deal with it, if necessary, during the next
16 hearing.
17 Thank you very much. We adjourn and resume next Tuesday in the
18 afternoon.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of June,
22 2010, at 2.15 p.m.
23
24
25