Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3654

 1                           Thursday, 8 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             Ms. Chittenden, is the next witness ready?

 7             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  Our first witness this morning is

 9     Witness 110, who will be known by the pseudonym of PW-043.  He will be

10     testifying with face and voice distortion.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

12             Could the witness be brought in, please.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  Please wait a moment -- no,

15     please open the screens first.

16             Good morning to you again, sir.  Welcome to the Tribunal.  Would

17     you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to you

18     now.  Would you please read aloud the text on the card.

19             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please sit down.  We have a problem.  We didn't

21     hear the English interpretation on channel 4.  And not the B/C/S

22     translation?  No.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We seem to have had a

25     technical problem in the booth.  Could the witness please repeat the

Page 3655

 1     solemn declaration.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm very sorry, because of technical problems

 3     please repeat the solemn declaration.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  And now please sit down.

 7             I think you know the procedure in this Tribunal.  There are still

 8     protective measures for you in place and your name will not be broadcast

 9     and your face and voice will not be seen and heard outside the courtroom.

10             Ms. Chittenden has, I think, some questions for you.

11             Please, Ms. Chittenden.

12                           WITNESS:  PW-043

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Examination by Ms. Chittenden:

15        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   We met yesterday.  My name is Caitlin Chittenden and I'll be

18     asking you some questions today on behalf of the Office of the

19     Prosecutor.

20             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Please could we have Exhibit P649 in e-court.

21        Q.   Witness, you'll see something coming up on the screen in front of

22     you now.  Please can you read it to yourself and confirm that that's your

23     name written next to PW-043.

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this into

Page 3656

 1     evidence as an exhibit under seal.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 3             MS. CHITTENDEN:

 4        Q.   Witness, do you recall testifying in the case of Prosecutor

 5     versus Popovic et al. on 23 January 2007?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Was your testimony at that time truthful and accurate?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   Have you had the opportunity to listen to your Popovic testimony

10     again before coming here today?

11        A.   Yes, I had the opportunity.

12        Q.   If you were asked the same questions again in court today, would

13     you answer in the same way?

14        A.   Yes, I would.

15             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Your Honours, at this time I would like to offer

16     the witness's testimony in Popovic into evidence.  It is P647, which

17     should be admitted under seal; and P648, the public version.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received with the given numbers.

19             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Your Honours, at this time I would also like to

20     offer into evidence the exhibits admitted in conjunction with this

21     witness's testimony in the Popovic case.  The first exhibit I would like

22     to offer for admission is P650, under seal.  This is the witness's

23     statement to the OTP on 21 January 2007.  This statement was admitted in

24     Popovic as the underlying Rule 92 ter statement.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should continue with the other one.

Page 3657

 1             MS. CHITTENDEN:  The second exhibit I would like to offer is an

 2     intercept, it's P651.  I would like to offer this into evidence as an

 3     exhibit under seal.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Both will be received under seal.

 5             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             For the record, the third exhibit which was admitted via this

 7     witness's testimony in Popovic is an intercept at 1305 hours on

 8     21 July 1995.  This has already been admitted in this case through PW-032

 9     as P269A.  However, I would like to request that this be placed under

10     seal.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was that not received under seal?

12             MS. CHITTENDEN:  I don't believe it was, Your Honour.  I would

13     like to put this under seal, please, as well as P269C.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was previously received under seal.  I'm told

16     that there's no need to do it again.

17             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             Your Honours, I would now like to read a short summary of the

19     witness's testimony in Popovic.

20        Q.   Witness, after I read out the summary, I'll have a few further

21     questions for you.

22             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Your Honours, if we may move into private

23     session for a moment, please.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

25                           [Private session]

Page 3658

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

17             MS. CHITTENDEN:  As an intercept operator, the witness followed

18     the established procedure at his unit for scanning, recording, and

19     transcribing intercepts into notebooks.  Normal practice was to work in

20     two-hour shifts followed by a four-hour break, depending on how busy it

21     was.  The soldiers present were divided into two alternating groups, each

22     of whom would be on duty for seven days and off duty for seven days.  The

23     witness remained in the ABiH until mid-October 1997.

24             Your Honours, that concludes my summary.  I now have a couple of

25     questions I would like to put to the witness, if I may.

Page 3659

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please, do it.

 2             MS. CHITTENDEN:

 3        Q.   Witness, I would like to show you a booklet of two intercepts

 4     that we have compiled.  For the record, these intercepts are Exhibit P651

 5     and P269A.

 6             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Please could I ask for the assistance of the

 7     Court Usher.

 8        Q.   Witness, please could you take a moment to look through this

 9     booklet and let me know whether you recognise your handwriting on the two

10     intercepts.

11        A.   Yes, I do recognise it.

12        Q.   And can you check both of the intercepts for me behind tabs 1 and

13     2.  It should just be the last page in the booklet there, if you turn to

14     the very last page.

15        A.   Yes, I have found it.

16        Q.   Can you confirm that that is your handwriting?

17        A.   Yes, it is.

18        Q.   Witness, were you the operator who recorded and transcribed these

19     two intercepted conversations?

20        A.   I do not remember the conversations, but this is my handwriting

21     so probably I was the operator.

22        Q.   Did you review these two intercepts before you testified in the

23     Popovic case?

24        A.   I do not remember the first one and I did review the second one.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have a chance to look at this intercept

Page 3660

 1     booklet and these two intercepts yesterday?

 2        A.   I did review them yesterday, but I cannot seem to remember the

 3     first conversation.  I do remember the second one if it's just what is on

 4     the last page here.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you look at an original notebook yesterday?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And did you see in that original notebook those conversations?

 8        A.   I saw the original conversations.  I remembered that I saw the

 9     second of these two, but I cannot seem to remember the first one.

10             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Please could I ask for the assistance of the

11     Court Usher.  I will just pass you the original notebook.

12        Q.   Witness, please could you look at the bottom of the page on the

13     right-hand side and let me know if that's your handwriting.

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15        Q.   Now, in the booklet, the blue booklet, if you can turn to the

16     intercept behind tab 1 and let me know if that's the same intercept as

17     what's in the original notebook.  So it's the intercept behind tab 1, not

18     the one that you're looking at the moment in the book, but the first

19     intercept.

20             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Please could I ask for the assistance of the

21     Court Usher.

22             Your Honours, if I just may turn to the page in the booklet for

23     him.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These two are not the same.

25             MS. CHITTENDEN:

Page 3661

 1        Q.   Witness, just to be clear, I'd like you to look at that -- the

 2     first tab of the booklet, which is the intercept of 1242, P651; and the

 3     original notebook which you have in front of you, let me know if they're

 4     the same.

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Your Honours, I have no further questions.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber would like to have the original

 9     book -- notebook.

10             The Chamber has seen it, the original, and could it be forwarded

11     to Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Gajic, please.

12             Mr. Tolimir, yes, have a look.  Do you have cross-examination for

13     this witness?  It's now your turn.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  May

15     there be peace in this house for all those present and may God's will be

16     done in these proceedings, and may the outcome be as God wishes and not

17     as I wish.  I wish the witness a pleasant stay in The Hague.  I will have

18     a few questions for this witness.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, as you have a pseudonym, I will address

21     you as "Mr. Witness."  The Prosecutor read parts of your statement in

22     open and closed sessions.  I would just ask you this.  In paragraph 5 in

23     the first line --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we please show the

25     statement first, it's P560 [as interpreted], please, so that the witness

Page 3662

 1     can follow his own statement.  Thank you.

 2             Thank you.  We can see it now, we can see page 1 in the original

 3     language.  Can we please move on to the second page.  Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   You can see paragraph 5.  You stated that you came to the unit on

 6     the 30th of April, 1995, and that you were there until the

 7     12th of February, 1996.  My question is the following:  Did you arrive to

 8     a place that was vacant or were you sent there because the manning levels

 9     were not adequate?

10        A.   Can you please just repeat the question.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you arrive to the unit in April 1995 -- in 1994,

12     to your unit, to a place that was vacated or because there was

13     insufficient personnel of the adequate profile in your unit?  Thank you.

14        A.   I came to the unit as a wounded soldier so I wouldn't go out to

15     the front, and the unit was operative even before I got there.  So it was

16     not because of the manning levels.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 7, please have a look at it, you say in

18     the first line that you were working two hours per shift and then would

19     get four hours of rest.  And that there would be two intercept operators

20     in the room and that each of them had a set for himself, and that you

21     worked on a device that scanned only one frequency.  Did I quote properly

22     what you said under item 7?  Thank you.

23        A.   Yes, you quoted what it says there.

24        Q.   Thank you.  This is my question:  Was the scope of your unit's

25     work small and could you record, transcribe, process, and dispatch more

Page 3663

 1     than one, two, three, or four conversations during one two-hour shift?

 2     Thank you.

 3        A.   The scope of the work was not always the same.  It could happen

 4     that there would be a number of conversations or for longer periods there

 5     would be nothing.  We recorded the conversations and only then we would

 6     transcribe them as much as we could.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  How many conversations could you process during one

 8     two-hour shift in practice?

 9        A.   I cannot remember exactly.  It all depends on the length of a

10     given conversation.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 7 you say that the device only scanned

12     one frequency.  Can you tell us why and how this was possible and what

13     were the technical characteristics of these devices?  Thank you.

14        A.   I could not remember that now because I was not familiar with the

15     devices before I got into my unit.  I only knew about the devices what I

16     learned from my predecessors.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Chittenden.

18             MS. CHITTENDEN:  I'd just like to clarify for the record that

19     what the statement in paragraph 7 actually says is:

20             "I do not remember very well, but it seems to me that I was

21     working on a device that scanned only one frequency."

22             So that's not -- that's not quite the same as what was quoted

23     on -- sorry, lines 10 and 11.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now really a quote, but what is the

25     difference to the question?

Page 3664

 1             MS. CHITTENDEN:  I apologise.  The difference is in lines 10 and

 2     11 the accused said the device only scanned one frequency, but the

 3     witness actually said he wasn't sure, but it seems that he was working on

 4     a device that scanned only one frequency.  Just to be clear.  I

 5     apologise, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, thanks also to Ms. Chittenden, she quoted your

11     statement precisely now.  So can you please now answer the question.  Did

12     the device that you worked with scan only one frequency?  Thank you.

13        A.   I couldn't remember that right now.

14        Q.   Thank you.  But when you wrote the statement - we see that it was

15     recorded in 2007 - that was just what you said, that you do not precisely

16     remember but that it scanned only one frequency.  In the notes that you

17     just had a chance to have a look at written in your handwriting, were all

18     the conversations from one and the same frequency or not?  Thank you.

19        A.   I did not review the entire notebook except for the conversations

20     that have to do with this trial so that I don't know.

21        Q.   Thank you.  It would be very important for us if you could

22     remember why the device scanned only one frequency and whether all the

23     other devices also scanned one frequency each?  Thank you.

24        A.   I cannot remember about this device, but it was not the case that

25     all devices were scanning only one frequency each.

Page 3665

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could all the devices scan various frequencies within

 2     the radio network?  Thank you.

 3        A.   I know that some of them could, but I cannot remember about all

 4     of them.

 5        Q.   In any case, the one you worked with did scan frequencies, yes or

 6     no?

 7        A.   Well, I'm telling you that right now I cannot remember that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell the Trial Chamber when the device

 9     is not scanning a frequency, what do you do with it then?  How do you

10     choose a particular channel if it cannot scan the radio waves?  Thank

11     you.

12        A.   I cannot remember that now.

13        Q.   Thank you.  That is sufficient.  In paragraph 8, please have a

14     look at it now.  I will not quote it.  I will just retell what it says

15     there.  In lines 4 and 5 you say that you remember that you only had one

16     tape and that you would record new conversations over the ones that were

17     already recorded once the tape was full.  Is that correct or not?  Thank

18     you.

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.

20        Q.   Can you please tell us and answer my question by saying whether

21     this one single tape satisfied the needs that you had?  Thank you.

22        A.   No, it did not meet our needs, but that was what we had and we

23     had to work with it and do as much work as we could.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In the same paragraph, in line 2, you say that your

25     commander listened to all recorded conversations.  Am I right, it's

Page 3666

 1     line 2:

 2             "The commander listened to all recorded conversations ..."

 3             Thank you.

 4        A.   Yes, that's what it says, but I really cannot remember that now.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me when did he listen to the recorded

 6     conversations, during your shift or after your shift ended?  Do you

 7     remember how he used to do that?  Thank you.

 8        A.   When there was a conversation that we deemed to be interesting,

 9     then we would call him to check and establish whether it was transcribed

10     in the same way as it was recorded.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You said in the statement that he listened to all

12     recorded conversations and not only when you called him.  Is there now an

13     inconsistency between what you're saying now and your statement?  Thank

14     you.

15        A.   Believe me, I cannot really remember that now.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you remember any situation in which the commander

17     listened to a conversation you were recording and when did he do that, at

18     the time of your shift or after your shift?  Thank you.

19        A.   Well, I can, for example, remember that on one occasion I asked

20     him to come and listen to a conversation because it was a fairly lengthy

21     one and I was worried.  I thought I might have missed something in the

22     conversation, so I wanted him to listen to it to see that everything had

23     been recorded correctly.

24        Q.   Thank you.  At the time the commander would listen to recorded

25     conversations, would you be able to use a band to -- a tape to record

Page 3667

 1     another conversation if there were participants in a conversation on a

 2     frequency that you were scanning?

 3        A.   Well, the tape I used, the device I used, couldn't be used to

 4     record another conversation while we were listening to a previous

 5     conversation --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.  Mr. Tolimir, I had to stop you

 7     again because you were overlapping and it's too fast for the

 8     interpreters.

 9             Now put the question to the witness that you wanted to ask.

10             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused, please.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't hear the interpretation of

13     what you just said.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I asked you not to overlap, please, and wait

15     until the answer is recorded.  You were too fast.  Please carry on.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I've

17     received the interpretation now.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, you heard the comment that the Presiding Judge has made.

20     Please slow down a little, pause after my questions, and then we'll be

21     able to proceed more efficiently.

22             With regard to the information on participants, as you call them,

23     did you record this information in log-books for each conversation?  You

24     mention this in item 9 if you can't remember this?  Thank you.

25        A.   I think that we noted down the details and that we had to do

Page 3668

 1     that.

 2        Q.   With regard to the notebook you had a look at, you mentioned what

 3     the Prosecution gave you, in that notebook is there the time of each

 4     conversation and the date of the conversation concerned?  Thank you.

 5        A.   As far as I can see, given what I have before me, yes, that's

 6     noted.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did you bring those notebooks with you from home or

10     did you get them from the commander?

11        A.   We took the notebooks or we obtained the notebooks at work.  We

12     didn't carry them around.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did they have any registration numbers?  Were they

14     assigned officially and so on and so forth?  Thank you.

15        A.   I can't remember that.

16        Q.   Thank you.  On the premises were there other users who performed

17     the same sort of duties as your group?  Were there other individuals who

18     used these interception devices?  Thank you.

19        A.   Yes, there were.

20        Q.   Were they part of the structure of the Army of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina or were they part of some other structure?

22        A.   I wouldn't really know right now.

23        Q.   Thank you.  It's not that important.  I'm asking you about that

24     because you mentioned this sabotage group.  You didn't mention any other

25     users, and it would be natural for you to know if someone else is

Page 3669

 1     involved in interception -- well, it would be natural for you to

 2     communicate with them during a one-year period, but if you can't remember

 3     the details it doesn't matter.

 4        A.   I don't remember, but I'm not sure.  It was a long time ago.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  The Usher will now return this notebook to you, the

 8     one that you used, as you said.  You can have a look at it, and once you

 9     have done that please answer my following question -- or first, have a

10     look at the notebook and then I will put my question to you.  Thank you.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.  While you're having a look at it, have a look at the

14     first page, the last page, the first few pages as well, and have a look

15     at the conversations that you were involved in and have you noted the

16     time and dates of those conversations?  Can you see the dates and times

17     of those conversations in the notebook?  Thank you.

18             Thank you.  Please have a look at the conversations you are

19     testifying about here.  Are the dates and times noted by those

20     conversations?  Thank you.  And does this correspond to the binder that

21     you have next to you that was provided to you by the Usher?

22        A.   The time is there for all the conversations, but the dates were

23     noted at the beginning of the day, not for each conversation.  There were

24     several conversations in the course of one day.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you all have such notebooks or similar

Page 3670

 1     notebooks -- or did you all have such notebooks?  Thank you.

 2        A.   We would obtain these notebooks at our work-place and we would

 3     hand the notebook to each other.

 4        Q.   My question was whether in your group that worked in the northern

 5     building or all those who intercepted conversations were people who used

 6     such notebooks, or were there other notebooks as well, or were there only

 7     those kinds of notebooks because the unit issued them?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Initially you expressed doubts about the first

10     conversation that you were presented.  It was in the first binder in blue

11     that the Usher gave you.  Since you expressed such doubts -- well, did

12     you have a look at that conversation yesterday when you were being

13     proofed for your testimony?  Thank you.

14        A.   I saw this conversation, but in the list where the conversation

15     was included there was something from another conversation.  I didn't

16     recognise it immediately.  I thought that was part of the conversation

17     that I had to deal with too.

18        Q.   Thank you.  So it's a matter of confusion.  There was a mistake.

19     It's not a factual error.

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.

21        Q.   Thank you, Witness, for those answers.  Thank you for appearing

22     here.  On behalf of my Defence I would like to thank you, and I wish you

23     a nice stay here.  I wish you a safe trip home.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, I have

25     now concluded my cross-examination of this witness.  Thank you.

Page 3671

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

 2             Ms. Chittenden, do you have re-examination?

 3             MS. CHITTENDEN:  No, I don't.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to ask the Court Usher to bring the

 5     notebook, the original notebook, again to the Bench.  I would like to

 6     have a look at it again.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, when you have a look at the

 8     notebook, bear in mind that it doesn't have a registration number and

 9     it's not even on the list which includes those registration numbers of

10     other notebooks that were tendered.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we all come to our findings at a later

12     stage.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We have seen it and it

15     should be returned to Ms. Chittenden.  Thank you.

16             Sir, this concludes your examination.  The Chamber would like to

17     thank you that you were able to come to The Hague again and to assist us.

18     We -- you are now free to return to your normal activities and your place

19     of residence, and again, thank you very much for your attendance.

20             The next witness will be available as well?  I think it is -- we

21     have to arrange the system and the screen.  Perhaps we should have a

22     short break of ten minutes, and then we resume.

23             The Court Usher will assist you after we have raised, and we will

24     resume five minutes before 10.00.

25                           --- Break taken at 9.48 a.m.

Page 3672

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.00 a.m.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, Mr. Thayer.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I remember correctly, we have the witness we

 6     know already.

 7             MR. THAYER:  The gap-filler is here.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then he should brought in, please.

 9             I think the witness didn't expect ever to be called "gap-filler,"

10     but that happens.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please sit down.

13             Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk.  I'm not sure if I -- if that is the

14     right pronunciation.  Welcome back again in this trial.  May I remind you

15     again that the affirmation you made at the beginning of your examination

16     still applies.

17             THE WITNESS:  I understand.  Good morning, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning.

19             Mr. Tolimir, we are in the middle of the cross-examination.  We

20     started with that in April.  Please examine the witness.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22                           WITNESS:  TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 3673

 1        Q.   I would like to complete this testimony in accordance with

 2     God's will.  Sir, quite some time has passed since we spoke to each

 3     other.  We were speaking on the last occasion about the Drina Corps,

 4     about rotation, and I have a few questions that will take us to the heart

 5     of the matter that we were concerned with last time.

 6             First of all, let me ask you the following.  When the collection

 7     of the Drina Corps arrived in the hands of the Prosecution, according to

 8     your statements and the documents that we have been provided with,

 9     documents that have been shown here by the Prosecution, well, the place

10     of custody frequently changed.  Did you investigate where the collection

11     of the Drina Corps that you have testified about was taken to, which

12     places it passed through?  Thank you.

13        A.   Yes.  Since the Drina Corps collection arrived to The Hague, it

14     was stored in evidence unit and was kept entire time over there.  If

15     anybody wanted to get particular document from the evidence unit, should

16     fill out the form and sign this form and leave this form in evidence

17     unit.

18        Q.   Thank you.  That concerns its custody here, but my question was

19     whether you launched a particular investigation into all the places to

20     which the Drina Corps collection of documents was taken until it arrived

21     in the hands of the Prosecution?  Thank you.

22        A.   According to our investigation, the Drina Corps collection was

23     first kept by VRS army, by the Drina Corps itself.  It was collected --

24     documents from the Drina Corps collection were collected by Drina Corps

25     in Vlasenica; and then transferred to Bijeljina, stayed in Bijeljina

Page 3674

 1     about one year.  From Bijeljina again the entire collection was taken

 2     back to Sokolac.  And then from Sokolac, on the order of Colonel Andric,

 3     was transferred to Mali Zvornik.  And after that we got information that

 4     collection is in Gornji Milanovac, in Serbia.  And then collection was

 5     handed over to the Joint Commission of RS MUP and RS MOD and taken to

 6     Banja Luka.  For one day -- for few days were kept at the premises of

 7     RS MUP in Banja Luka, and on the 13th of December, 2004, was handed over

 8     to our field office, ICTY field office in Banja Luka.  And of course then

 9     it was the process taking this collection through Zagreb to The Hague.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know how it was taken from Mali Zvornik to

11     Milanovac?  If you looked into the matter you could answer that question;

12     if not, it doesn't matter.  Thank you.

13        A.   According to our knowledge, the information we got from one of

14     the witnesses, Nebojsa Vukicevic, when he came at one stage to

15     Mali Zvornik to get more documents, the collection was not there.  The

16     collection -- according to information he got on the spot, the collection

17     was taken away by member of the Army of Serbia and Montenegro.  Whether

18     it was taken directly to Gornji Milanovac or to other places, we don't

19     know.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you about that because the collection is

21     not a small one, it can't be dealt with by just an individual, but that's

22     not that important.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have P134 on the

24     screen now.  Thank you.  Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 3675

 1        Q.   While we're waiting for the document to come up on the screen I

 2     can say that we're waiting for photographs, photographs that have been

 3     shown to you already in the course of your testimony.  Here they are.  We

 4     can see that the documents are in bundles.  They've been taken out of

 5     this box.  Did each of the bundles have a binder which included a list of

 6     the relevant documents?  Thank you.  We can see some sort of a binder

 7     here that looks like a divider -- that looks like a log-book, perhaps.

 8        A.   What is the question, sorry?

 9        Q.   My question was whether each bundle of documents - and we can see

10     the documents that have been taken out of the box - did each bundle

11     contain a list of the documents or was there just one notebook where the

12     list of documents -- a notebook such as the one we can see in the

13     photograph, the notebook looks like a log-book.  Thank you.

14        A.   I seen this collection first time in Zagreb.  It was few days

15     after that the pictures were taken -- this picture was taken.  And I

16     don't remember on the -- on a list of the documents, you know, in

17     particular binders.  And as far as I know, looking at the collection

18     later stage even, I didn't find any list.  I didn't remember -- I don't

19     remember any list.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Was it common practice to keep the documents of an

21     entire corps without having a list of the documents, and when you

22     subsequently examined the collection did you come across a list of any

23     kind, a list of any documents or at least a list for part of the

24     documents?  Thank you.

25        A.   I don't remember from top of my head whether there is any list,

Page 3676

 1     but possible, possible there were few log-books where it -- where, for

 2     example, dispatches of telegram were recorded.  Of course they are -- but

 3     from the top of my head I don't remember a list.  And I didn't notice

 4     such lists in what is exactly in this collection entirely, so this

 5     collection, I didn't notice such list.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me whether we can find a list of any

 7     part of the documents from the Drina Corps in the electronic system that

 8     we have?  Thank you.

 9        A.   I believe entire collection is accessible for the Defence also in

10     the system, and including whatever is in -- also, if the analysis exist,

11     the list are also accessible for you, sir.

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Please answer my following question.  Can this

13     be a full and authentic collection if we don't have these lists of

14     documents, and could you take documents from this collection before the

15     collection arrived in the hands of the Prosecution?  Thank you.

16        A.   I don't understand why this collection cannot be authenticated

17     without a list.  You know, the list doesn't say as anything about

18     authentication about this collection.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Some of the documents were used, as has been said in

20     the course of your testimony, in the Radislav Krstic case.  The trial

21     came to an end in 2001, in the -- the trial in the Krstic case.  The

22     appeals phase was completed in 2004.  All of these documents were found

23     when exactly?  Could you please tell us?  Thank you.

24        A.   The entire collection was seized by the Joint Commission of

25     RS MUP and RS MOD on the 9th of December, 2004, and it was handed over to

Page 3677

 1     ICTY in December 13, 2004, and came to The Hague, physically came to

 2     The Hague, it was beginning of January 2005.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that answer.  So the appeals phase in the Krstic

 4     case was completed before this collection of documents was accessible to

 5     the Prosecution?  Is that correct or not?  Thank you.

 6        A.   I don't remember when appeal was completed for the Krstic case.

 7     Possible.  I don't remember.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  It's easy to check this in the Tribunal.  Please have

 9     a look at that and tell me whether I'm correct when I say that the case

10     was completed in 2004.  I thought that you as an investigator looked into

11     that too.  I would like to ask you the following now.  Last time a

12     witness was here, a witness who saw this collection that you have called

13     "Atlantida."  He said that he never gave it that title.  Can you tell us

14     anything about this, the question -- the witness concerned is called

15     Danko Gojkovic.  Thank you.

16        A.   Yes, I know the answer of Danko Gojkovic, yes, confirming that

17     during my interview with him also, that he didn't give this name of this

18     binder, "Atlantida," to this part of the documents.  And he never said --

19     and I think it's not -- Danko Gojkovic is not the man who created this

20     binder.  It could be done by another person.  We have some guessing, of

21     course, you know, who could create this binder, but the man who may

22     create this binder refused to be interviewed by us.  We tried to

23     interview him, but he refused.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show P469 in

Page 3678

 1     e-court.  Thank you.  Can we please turn it around.  Thank you.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Now we can see that it says "Telegrams" in Latin alphabet, then

 4     it's followed by the number 28/34.  It was probably marked by someone who

 5     classified it, it could be someone from the OTP, and your ERN number.

 6     And then we can see in Cyrillic "Atlantida" or "Atlantis."  When we

 7     showed this to Danko Gojkovic he said he never wrote this, either the

 8     word "Telegrams" or the title "Atlantida," and that this was the first

 9     time that he ever saw that.

10             On the basis of the witness told us and what I just told you, can

11     you tell us how is it possible that this title may have come into being

12     once it was already archived and was not anymore in the possession of

13     Mr. Danko Gojkovic?  Thank you.

14        A.   As far as I remember Danko Gojkovic's testimony, he says that all

15     the telegrams that had been sent by him or received by him were handed

16     over to the command, the command of the Rogatica Brigade.  I believe this

17     binder was created in Rogatica Brigade command.  I think, because, as we

18     see, if you look at the following pages from the first page, there are

19     some logistical documents and also the name of the assistant commander

20     for the logistics of Rogatica Brigade.  I think, I think, but I said I

21     couldn't check it because the guy refused to be interviewed by me, that

22     this binder could be created in the command of the Rogatica Brigade.  And

23     it's possible that this "Telegrami," "28/34" and "Atlantida" name were

24     somewhere created on this level, let's say.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Were all documents classified in this way in the

Page 3679

 1     Rogatica Brigade and also marked with secret names just like this one?

 2     As Danko worked in the command of the Rogatica Brigade, it would be

 3     normal for him to determine the titles for the documents which he wrote

 4     and classified and which you designated as Danko's documents, or was it

 5     someone else who wrote all this on the documents?  Thank you.

 6        A.   Also from the testimony of Danko Gojkovic and his interview, I

 7     remember that he didn't create any archive material, at least with this

 8     type of material, and everything that had been produced by him or sent by

 9     him or received by him had been sent to the command of Rogatica Brigade.

10     What happened there, I don't know.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Please answer the following question.  Did Danko work

12     at the command of the Rogatica Brigade and where was his office located,

13     if you know?  Thank you.

14        A.   Danko is -- this is communication officer of the Rogatica

15     Brigade.  His office was located, let's say, in the premises of the

16     Rogatica Brigade command, but not in the building where the real command

17     was located.  This is the building next to the command, small building

18     about 50, 100 metres from the command itself.  I know this place.  I've

19     been there a few times, and this place has been described also by

20     Danko Gojkovic and by other witnesses.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know, as an investigator, that if an organ or

22     a department produces documents that they would have to keep them in

23     their own records and not hand them over into the archives, because if

24     anything is coded, there is the possibility that some of the secret

25     information might leak out?  Thank you.

Page 3680

 1        A.   This is possible, but difficult to say.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that a telegram or a code must not be

 3     used to transfer contents which are dictated aloud in a room where

 4     they're being typed out, precisely because of the possibility that the

 5     room is being wire-tapped and that in this way the key for a specific

 6     code might be found?  Thank you.

 7        A.   It is possible in few cases, yeah.

 8        Q.   Do you conclude on the basis of that that Danko was also not

 9     allowed to send anywhere the perforated tapes which he used or telegrams;

10     and as for texts, that he had to return them to the organs which

11     submitted them to him, that is to say, logistics department and so on and

12     so forth?  Thank you.

13        A.   And this is exactly what Danko did.  You know, he handed over

14     these documents to his commander -- to his command.

15        Q.   Thank you.  But Danko could not hand over the documents to his

16     command when he was a member of the command.  He would have to keep his

17     own documents.  He could hand something over to the Drina Corps.  Is it

18     perhaps that you are confusing his command with the Drina Corps command?

19     Thank you.

20        A.   I am not confusing Danko.  Danko, this is ordinary soldier.  He

21     was the communication officer.  He didn't take any particular role in the

22     command.  He was attached to the command as a communication officer who

23     was ordinary soldier.  It was not his role to keep any documents.  He

24     followed the rule established by the commander and his assistants in the

25     command.

Page 3681

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk.  This is your opinion.  But I'm asking

 2     you if Danko says that he never saw a binder like this one with this

 3     title - and this is what he stated here in front of this Trial Chamber in

 4     this courtroom - could you tell us who could have produced this binder

 5     and when could it have been produced if it was not produced at the time

 6     when the documents were still in the possession of the cryptographer at

 7     the Rogatica Brigade?  Thank you.

 8        A.   According to Danko, who was the cryptographer in the Rogatica

 9     Brigade, he handed over all the documents or the dispatches which he

10     received or has sent to the command and somebody in the command, I can

11     only assume who it could be, created this binder.  And also the first

12     page, you're referring to this "Atlantida" page, whatever it's called,

13     has been created over there in the command position, not by Danko.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who it was who produced it?  I also asked

15     you whether all the documents from the logistics organ, reconnaissance

16     organs, intelligence organs, and so on, had a code-name for the place of

17     their documents, just as this one has the code-name "Atlantida"?  Thank

18     you.

19        A.   As I said, I only can suspect, you know, who did -- who created

20     this binder.  You know, I thought that this was assistant commander for

21     the logistics because in the following pages, the first pages of this

22     "Atlantida" binder, we see documents with his handwriting, with his name

23     on it, and I believe with his signature also.  As I said, I tried to get

24     information how this binder was created and he refused -- this man, he

25     refused to talk to us.  He showed up for our interview, but he refused to

Page 3682

 1     talk.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I will remind you that only the first three documents

 3     were produced by the logistics organs.  The rest contains telegrams which

 4     were written by me and which you called "Atlantida."  I wrote them while

 5     I was at the Rogatica Brigade.  I wanted to know whether the logistics

 6     organ could keep the telegrams which were written by the security organ

 7     and which were recorded by the cryptographers.  Thank you.

 8        A.   Yes, the position of the guy who is mentioned the first pages of

 9     this "Atlantida" binder was the assistant commander for the logistics of

10     the Rogatica Brigade, but he could perform of the command officer also

11     the duty as duty officer or office in charge in case if commander was

12     not -- not of his area of responsibility.  I don't know, he may have had

13     access to these documents.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us whether he selected the

15     documents in the same manner as ICTY, that is to say, you the

16     investigators did, and then submitted it under these covers entitled

17     "Atlantida," because this does not contain other documents except those

18     that were tendered by the OTP, and does "Atlantida" contain any other

19     documents?  Can you please tell that to the Trial Chamber.  Thank you.

20        A.   I can tell that this binder was seized by us in this shape.  I

21     cannot say what the criterion the man used in creating this binder, I

22     don't know it.  I can confirm only that definitely this is the shape how

23     this binder was seized or received by OTP.  I seen this binder first

24     time, I remember very clear, in Zagreb field office, when I arrived to

25     Zagreb field office.  When I opened the boxes I made the initial

Page 3683

 1     assessment.

 2        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone, please.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   In order to finish with this, who wrote it or did not, and who

 8     selected it or did not, can you please tell us the following.  Was the

 9     title "Atlantida" and the words "Telegrams 28/34" written in the

10     Prosecution's office?  Thank you.

11        A.   Definitely not.  It was written at that time when we seized this

12     material -- I mean before that time, of course.  Whether it was in

13     Rogatica command, whether it was in Drina Corps, I don't know.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show document 125.

15     Thank you.  Could we please show the Exhibit P125.  Thank you.

16             [Microphone not activated]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Microphone, please, Mr. Tolimir.

19             Now please repeat because your microphone was switched off.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This is a document which we saw last time.  I will ask the

23     witness whether he can recognise this document.  Thank you.

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Can you please tell us why you, or a representative of the OTP,

Page 3684

 1     it does not matter, decided that precisely this document would be

 2     discussed during your testimony even though the entire collection of the

 3     Drina Corps has more than 300.000 pages?  Thank you.

 4        A.   The document is self-explanatory.  It's talking about -- saying

 5     about the important issues and this is why we selected this document.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please answer another question now.  How

 7     come that this document is not in the "Atlantida" collection?  How do you

 8     explain that?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Sorry, this document is not in the "Atlantida" collection?  It is

10     in the "Atlantida" collection.

11        Q.   Thank you.  But when you testified previously you said that it

12     was found in Zvornik.  Is that correct or not?  Thank you.

13        A.   Sorry, General, I am getting confused a little bit.  Did I say

14     that this document was seized in Zvornik?

15        Q.   Thank you.  It doesn't matter.  It is irrelevant.  I can rephrase

16     the question so I wouldn't go on confusing you.  Could this document have

17     been placed in the Drina Corps archives in Zvornik or in any other place

18     which you mentioned that the archives went through, from Vlasenica

19     through Bijeljina, Sokolac, Mali Zvornik, and Gornji Milanovac,

20     Banja Luka, and Zagreb.  So could it happen that this document may have

21     been added to the archives in any of these locations because it's not

22     recorded in any of the log-books?  Thank you.

23        A.   I can exclude that this document was added to this collection in

24     Zagreb, Banja Luka, since the entire collection was in the possession of

25     the ICTY.  I can exclude this possibility for sure, 100 per cent sure.

Page 3685

 1     But of course, everything is possible that it was added somewhere later,

 2     but I don't think so.  I don't see any reason why it should be done in

 3     this way.  But physically it is possible because we had no control of

 4     this documentation at that time.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell me first of all whether this document has

 6     a log number; and if so, what is this number?

 7        A.   You mean original log number?  I don't see an original log number

 8     here in this document.  This is our ICTY number, it's ERN number over --

 9     on it, and also signature and date of communication officer from

10     Rogatica Brigade.

11        Q.   Thank you.  During your testimony you interpreted some of the

12     registration numbers of documents, and, inter alia, you said that the

13     registration number itself could show whether a document was an urgent

14     one and the like, whether it was an order or something else.  Can you

15     tell us, as this document does not contain any of these characteristics

16     in the heading, it doesn't say either "military secret" or "strictly

17     confidential" or anything, can you say whether it was registered in any

18     log-book of the Drina Corps, a brigade or corps, or any kind of log-book

19     whatsoever?  Thank you.

20        A.   I don't know.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can we then conclude, on the basis of your answers

22     and on the basis of the facts, that it was never registered anywhere as

23     either a military secret or something strictly confidential even though

24     you say that it was encoded?  We cannot even see that it was encoded as

25     there is no trace of the teletypist.

Page 3686

 1        A.   I don't think that we can conclude that, but this is possible

 2     also.

 3        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it usual to note the date, the time, and the

 7     marking whether a document is internal or public or confidential or

 8     strictly confidential in the upper left-hand corner of the document?

 9     Thank you.

10        A.   It is usual.  Yeah, you're right, this is usual.  Usually the

11     documents have the number, the date, information about sensitivity of

12     this document, all this type of information, but this document has not.

13     But in fact we don't know.  Maybe -- maybe this information was handed

14     over to communication officer orally or maybe it was another paper also,

15     the cover paper of this document.  I don't know how he received this

16     paper.  He couldn't explain it because he doesn't remember this

17     particular document, I mean the communication officer Danko Gojkovic.  He

18     remembers only, you know, based of his signature and handwritings that he

19     sent these documents on the 13th July 1995 and at 1510 minutes -- hours.

20        Q.   Thank you.  As Danko cannot remember the contents or anything

21     and, as you say, he processed it, is it then logical that when something

22     is brought in to be encrypted to a place where only secret military

23     information is being typed, as this was wartime, and as this type of

24     document was not transmitted by fax or any other means that the enemy

25     could find out, would it be normal that such a document would be signed

Page 3687

 1     by the person who was sending it so that the receiver would know that it

 2     was sent by so and so and on behalf of whom it was being sent?  Thank

 3     you.

 4        A.   Could be signed or could not, but if the communication officer

 5     receiving these documents from the command or somebody who may pass this

 6     type of documents to the communication office, it is logical also for him

 7     that he's obligated to send this document as soon as possible.  And of

 8     course, there is no information about number of the document, log number,

 9     or whether this is document strictly confidential or not.  But it -- for

10     sure this information should be on the typed version of this document

11     which was sent by teleprinter.  Unfortunately, we don't have teleprinter

12     version of this document, but as we see, as we got it from Danko Gojkovic

13     it had been sent.

14        Q.   Thank you.  As you just said, Danko does not remember the

15     contents of the document nor who gave it to him or when.  He just

16     remembers that his signature, which we can see at the left-hand bottom

17     corner, is written on this page.  But there is no signature of the

18     sending party.  On the basis of all this, when there is no registration

19     number, it is not logged, it was not signed by the sending party, then

20     does a cryptographer express his doubt that he might be sending a

21     telegram that he should not send because it includes some activities that

22     should be carried out and which could cause major consequences?  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, first of all, what was your

25     question?  It was more a statement rather than a question.  And the other

Page 3688

 1     thing is I was very cautious to interrupt you because you were dealing

 2     with this document, but we are running out of time.  We must have our

 3     break now.  We are ten minutes later than expected.  We must have our

 4     first break now and resume ten minutes past 11.00, and then you could

 5     think about rephrasing your last question.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Please proceed.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Sir, I was asking you about the elements that demonstrate that

12     the document is authentic.  You just mentioned the signature in the lower

13     left-hand corner, but I asked you whether there were any doubts with the

14     sender as to whether he was sending something for which he had received

15     no authorisation.  Thank you.  And I'll complete my question by saying:

16     Would it be logical for Danko to ask himself who had signed this document

17     since it hasn't been registered, it hadn't been stamped?  There are no

18     elements that show that this document is an authentic one.

19        A.   This depends who handed this document to Danko to send it out.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can we here, in the court, assume that someone gave

21     it to him who had authority over Danko, so he had to send each and every

22     telegram, regardless on whose behalf or in whose name that telegram was?

23        A.   I think so.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you then perhaps tell us who this person that

25     you have in mind is?

Page 3689

 1        A.   It could be somebody -- officer in charge from the command of the

 2     Rogatica Brigade or who had authority over Danko.

 3        Q.   Do you know that an encryptor's superior is only the commander

 4     because an encryptor works in an autonomous manner.  There are only one

 5     or two such individuals in a given command and they form an integral part

 6     of that command?  Are you aware of that fact?  Thank you.

 7        A.   Of course the commander, he is the main officer in charge of

 8     Danko, but it could be also another officer authorised by the commander.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I don't want to speculate.  I just want to ask you

10     the following.  Documents that are encrypted are considered to be the

11     most confidential ones; is that correct or not?

12        A.   It's correct.

13        Q.   Thank you.  As an investigator and a professional policeman, are

14     you aware of the fact that each and every document that is being

15     encrypted leaves certain traces, traces such as those left by the

16     finger-prints of a person who has touched certain objects?  Are you aware

17     of that fact?

18        A.   Yes, I am aware.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise to the interpreters.  As an investigator

20     and a professional policeman, are you aware of the fact that when

21     investigating documents that are being encrypted and sent, there are

22     three ways in which a person checking such documents can verify whether

23     these documents are in fact authentic or not?  Thank you.

24             Since you're not answering the question, I'll rephrase it.  Do

25     you know that there are three elements that allow one to confirm the

Page 3690

 1     authenticity of the contents of some document that has been sent through

 2     a teleprinter?

 3        A.   What do you mean three elements?  Could you specify it, please.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I can.  Finger-prints for everyone are different, and

 5     as a policeman you must be aware of the fact.  And similarly, each and

 6     every machine leaves behind its own individual traces.  For example, if

 7     you have a look at the document that we see on the left, if it has to be

 8     transported to a tape with all the punctuation, with all its contents,

 9     then the trace of the typewriter will be recorded on the teleprinter and

10     this will then have to be identical to the previous two documents that go

11     through the teleprinter.  Are you aware of that?  Thank you.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   The document that we can see here on the screen, it doesn't have

14     a signature or a stamp and so on and so forth, should this document have

15     also been accompanied by another two copies after it had gone through the

16     teleprinter?  Thank you.

17        A.   This document has been typed out on the teleprinter by

18     teleprinter operator, and of course, the person who received this

19     document printed out his own version of this document.

20        Q.   If this is one version, the document we see now - and you claim

21     that it's the original - if the second version was typed out by the

22     teleprinter operator, then the marks or traces left by that machine must

23     be different from the marks left by this original document.  And then

24     each teleprinter has a certain perforated tape or band that contains a

25     third set of traces left by the document.  So in each case there are

Page 3691

 1     three ways in which the authenticity of a document can be checked.  Are

 2     you aware of that?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Sir, this document has been typed out on the tele -- of the

 4     typewriter machine, not on the teleprinter.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know where the teleprinter mark is left if it

 6     is sent by teleprinter?  Thank you.

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Do you know where the markings of the teleprinter is located if

 9     it's sent by teleprinter?

10        A.   I am not sure whether I understood you correctly.  I know how a

11     teleprinter looked and more or less, you know, how it operate, but I

12     never worked on it.

13        Q.   Thank you for saying you didn't understand me.  Have a look at

14     the document to the left.  Danko receives it, the sender sends it to him

15     and he receives it; is that correct?  Thank you.

16             When this document is typed out on a typewriter, does it arrive

17     in this form?  Does it arrive in Danko hands through the teleprinter in

18     this form?

19        A.   This document -- Danko received this document in this form as we

20     see here in -- looking at his signature and information when he sent

21     these documents out, but of course he typed out this document on the

22     teleprinter.  It was definitely in different form, it should be different

23     form of this document.  But unfortunately, we don't have this version of

24     this document typed out on teleprinter.  We have only the version of the

25     document typed on telewriter -- or the typewriter.  I'm sorry.

Page 3692

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Does a teleprinter leave a copy that is identical to

 2     this document that has to be sent to the receiver?  So does the

 3     teleprinter produce such a copy?

 4        A.   I believe, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Apart from that identical copy, does the teleprinter

 6     also leave behind a second tape with the imprint of these letters in

 7     electronic form?

 8        A.   You are correct, yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Does each document that is being sent by the operator

10     have to have those three copies after the processing phase has been

11     completed by the operator?  Thank you.

12        A.   Yes, you're right.  It should be three copies.

13        Q.   And the copy that the operator receives for processing, does that

14     copy have to be sent back to be checked?  Thank you.

15        A.   I don't understand, should be sent back to be checked -- checked

16     by whom?  Sorry.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Does the operator who receives a copy from the

18     sender, does he have to send back that paper to the sender?  So as a

19     rule, does he have to send it back to the person from whom he received

20     the document?  Thank you.

21        A.   I believe that Danko Gojkovic through his testimony explained the

22     procedure regarding the documents, you know, who was supposed to be sent

23     by him by teleprinter.  And he says that the documents, after sending out

24     by him, were handed over back to the command, but I don't remember

25     whether he mentioned any particular person or not.  But he says that it

Page 3693

 1     was the procedure.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell me the following.  Would Danko keep this

 3     document typed on the machine as evidence that he had sent the telegram

 4     or did he have evidence in the form of the copy that was created by the

 5     device?  As a policeman, if you are looking into ways in which a

 6     teleprinter had been put to inappropriate use, what would you do?

 7        A.   You're asking about my reaction?  What I would do with this

 8     procedure?

 9        Q.   I don't have to ask you personally, but what would a policeman,

10     any policeman, have to look for to determine that the contents of a

11     telegram received by a processor, to determine that the telegram had been

12     sent to the required address, to determine that someone hadn't

13     forgotten -- to determine that someone hadn't forgotten to send that

14     telegram.  If you were, for example, investigating a criminal case, a

15     crime that had been committed, what would you do in such cases?

16        A.   We are quite limited to investigate this particular issue because

17     we have access to this document, this one document.  We have no access to

18     the teleprinter, we have no access to the tape from this particular

19     teleprinter.  We have no access to the full archive of the -- of, I

20     believe, Drina Corps collection.  We have no access to the log-book of

21     documents which were sent by communication officer from Rogatica Brigade

22     in this particular case.  And I don't think that we may do much more, you

23     know, than we did in this document, just to find out how this document

24     was sent out.  Except, of course, interviewing the person mentioned in

25     the document, that is Danko Gojkovic, and trying to find out the person

Page 3694

 1     who could collect this documentation in one this particular binder.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Since you didn't want to answer the

 3     question - perhaps you don't know the answer - what constitutes better

 4     evidence?

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, I'm just going to try to put a stop to

 7     that.  There's no need to characterise the witness's testimony and cast

 8     aspersions on the witness.  He's answered fully a number of very similar

 9     questions about a topic which the Trial Chamber has already heard a

10     volume of testimony from the teleprinter operator himself, Mr. Gojkovic,

11     who Mr. Blaszczyk has told you a number of times he personally

12     interviewed.  So if there's going to be further questioning along this

13     line, I think it's more respectful of the witness not to allege that he's

14     failing or trying not to answer the question when he clearly has over and

15     over again.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I realise as well you said:  "Since

17     you didn't want to answer the question ..."  I think that was not an

18     appropriate statement.  This witness is here for a long time answering

19     all the questions to him.  I don't see any sign that he is not willing to

20     answer the question.  You should be careful by such a statement.  Please

21     carry on, but try to use your time sufficiently.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Blaszczyk, you are an investigator, that's why I'm putting

25     this question to you.  Don't take it personally.  You are an

Page 3695

 1     investigator.  But would a copy from a teleprinter constitute better

 2     evidence or would a copy on a perforated track be better evidence if --

 3     if the document had been typed on an ordinary machine?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Of course it would be -- I don't know whether better, but it

 5     would be additional evidence, you know, confirming this particular

 6     dispatch.  Whether this is better evidence or worse evidence is up to the

 7     Trial Chamber to decide.  But I would like to have a copy of this

 8     teleprinter version of this document, also the tape, I would like

 9     definitely.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The Chamber shall decide as to what constitutes

11     better evidence, which copy constitutes better evidence.  I won't ask you

12     anything else about that.  Let's see what a different witness says about

13     this document.  Danko said he couldn't remember.  He said that he only

14     knew that his signature was in a lower left-hand corner, so let's see

15     what another witness has to say.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

17     the following document:  1D116.  It's the transcript from the Popovic

18     case.  The transcript page is 15262, and in the e-court system the

19     relevant number is 32.  I'll read out the relevant part of the

20     transcript.  It's in English and my legal advisor has provided me with a

21     Serbian version.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You can now see it in English on the screen.  Let's just find the

24     page.  While waiting for that, I'll start reading out the transcript.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I was told that there is no page 32

Page 3696

 1     in e-court.  Please check that again.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thanks.  We'll check that

 3     immediately on the basis of the copy that has been made.  Thank you.

 4             My legal advisor will check the page.  This is the transcript

 5     from the testimony that Colonel Savcic gave.  You don't have his

 6     signature on this document, but he's mentioned.  When we see what he says

 7     and compare it to what Danko said, I'll put a few questions to you --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First of all, we would like to have

 9     the correct --

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   -- so that we can finish discussing this document.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We would like to have the correct part of the

13     transcript on the screen.  Can you indicate again which is the page

14     number and the line number?

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] The transcript page is 15262,

16     15262, and in the e-court system it is page 32.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There is no page 32.  On the screen we have

18     page 32776.  Are you referring to that page?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Is it

20     sufficient to provide you with the transcript -- the page of the

21     transcript, 15262?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

23             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, General Tolimir has quoted the

24     correct transcript page.  If it helps, it's the 12th of September, 2007,

25     that's the date of the testimony of Mr. Savcic and his testimony on this

Page 3697

 1     topic continues from 15262 through 15265.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, this is 65 ter 1D118, not 1D116.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

 6             Thank you, and I apologise for the delay.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I'll now read out only part of the transcript, lines 7 to 14, for

 9     example.  The witness, Savcic, says the following:

10             "... my name is here, but not my signature [as interpreted].

11     I've already told you that I can't remember having drafted this document,

12     and there are several other reasons for which I still don't believe that

13     I drafted it.  Above all, the title says:  'IKM Forward Command Post of

14     the 65th Protection Regiment,' et cetera, 'Borike, 1400 hours.'  I did

15     not set up that forward command post.  I just led part of the unit that

16     was there.  There is no date," he probably means on the document.  "This

17     document doesn't have the format of a telegram ..."

18             And then he continues to say in lines 16 and 17:

19             "... I cannot suggest something to the commander of the

20     Main Staff or to his deputy, because I'm not an assistant commander in a

21     position to make suggestions to him.  I'm just a subordinate who executes

22     the orders he is given."

23             Then lines 19 to 24, he says:

24             "Furthermore, you see, after the first sentence, it says:

25             "'Assistant commander of the Main Staff of the VRS for

Page 3698

 1     intelligence and security proposes the following measures.'

 2             "So the assistant commander proposes, and I'm the one who writes

 3     things down.  If he is the one who makes proposals, why isn't he the one

 4     who writes them?"

 5             And then General Savcic says on page 15263 of the transcript,

 6     lines 1 to 5:

 7             "That's something that I know.  So I cannot say with any

 8     certainty that I drafted this, as dictated by Tolimir, but I also cannot

 9     exclude this possibility with 100 per cent certainty.  All I can say is

10     that this document was never received by the military police commander.

11     The military police commander never acted on it."

12             Thank you.

13             [Microphone not activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused, please.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   My question is as follows --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether I should put

18     the question now or whether Mr. Thayer would like to take the floor.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please wait a moment.

20             Mr. Thayer.

21             MR. THAYER:  Well, Mr. President, if General Tolimir wants to ask

22     a question at this point, I think in all fairness to the witness and

23     frankly to the record that he continue reading the transcript and give

24     the witness an opportunity to read the transcript through page 15264.  It

25     will save time.  I don't have to put it back up on re-direct and waste

Page 3699

 1     more court time to place this in context.  So I just ask that the witness

 2     be given an opportunity to read 15263, and the Trial Chamber as well, and

 3     15264.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Microphone not activated]

 5             Mr. Tolimir, do you agree with the proposal of Mr. Thayer?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not familiar

 7     with the contents.  I said that my legal advisor only translated this

 8     part of the transcript.  Since from the beginning of the trial I never

 9     received the transcript of any conferences or trials.  I received

10     nothing, but I should.  So I don't know English so I could only read out

11     what was translated for me.  I have nothing against Mr. Thayer reading

12     this out because I'm in favour of all the arguments being presented that

13     can help us to determine the truth.

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have nothing against any sort of

16     contents that would bring us to the truth.  So I would kindly ask

17     Mr. Thayer to read it out and the interpreters to interpret it for me

18     because I do not have a translation.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness could read the relevant part of the

20     transcript.  I think it was page 15264.

21             Mr. Thayer, can you indicate again which portion you were

22     referring to.

23             MR. THAYER:  You had it correct, Mr. President, 15264.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which lines?

25             MR. THAYER:  It's really the whole page that places in context

Page 3700

 1     the statement that General Tolimir read about Major Malinic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise, but I

 3     haven't read out anything about Major Malinic.  I read out what Savcic

 4     stated at the court for the record.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think now we are a little confused, and perhaps

 6     we leave it for the cross-examination.  It's perhaps more appropriate and

 7     practical so that Mr. Tolimir should now put a question to the witness to

 8     that portion he was quoting.

 9             Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   My question for the witness is this:  As for the arguments noted

13     by Milomir Savcic in the part of the transcript which I read out to you,

14     are they convincing enough to show that the document which you showed

15     here is inauthentic?  Thank you.

16        A.   Sorry, but who is convincing enough?

17        Q.   Thank you.  A little while ago you heard the contents of the

18     transcript which I read out, and this is what Savcic stated in the

19     Popovic case about this document.  Was he convincing when he said that

20     the document is not authentic?  It is a document that we are discussing

21     here.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think the witness is not here in

23     the courtroom to tell us if a document is authentic by reading a portion

24     of a testimony of another witness.  It is up to the Chamber to decide if

25     something is authentic or not at the end of the day.  Please carry on.  I

Page 3701

 1     would like to correct myself.  I misspoke when I said "leave it for

 2     cross-examination."  I meant re-examination of course.

 3                           [Defence counsel confer]

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Blaszczyk, if you remember, a part of the statement given by

 7     Mr. Savcic, who was the prosecutor witness in the case Popovic et al., do

 8     you remember that he said that he never set up a forward command post in

 9     Borike?  Thank you.

10        A.   I read it out, you know, from transcript just a few seconds ago.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have any other information about that?  Was

12     maybe Savcic insincere in his testimony?  Did the forward command post

13     perhaps exist?  Thank you.

14        A.   In Borike there exist forward command post of Rogatica Brigade

15     definitely, and we know that General Savcic, or Colonel Savcic at that

16     time, was present in Borike.  And usually where the commander is present

17     in the AOR there is forward command post, the commander is in command of

18     entire of his unit.  Whether this is officially called forward command

19     post of particular unit or using forward command post of other unit

20     co-operating with this particular unit, this is different question.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you the following and please answer that.

22     Does General Savcic say in this transcript from the Popovic case the

23     following:

24             The Forward Command Post of the 65th Regiment ... Borike,

25     1400 hours, is something I did not set up.  I did not set up this forward

Page 3702

 1     command post.  Thank you.

 2        A.   Yes.  As we see here, Colonel Savcic did say it in -- during his

 3     testimony in Popovic case.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did he also say that this document does not have the

 5     format of a telegram?  Thank you.

 6        A.   He says also this.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  This is my question:  What is missing in this

10     document?  We will see it on the screen once again - it is P125 - so you

11     can have a look at it and assess visually what is missing there in terms

12     of what Savcic is saying.  Thank you.  There, we can see it now and we

13     shall check the authenticity of a witness who is testifying in a trial

14     before this Tribunal.  He says that the document does not have the format

15     of a telegram.  Does it have the format of a telegram?  Thank you.

16        A.   He says what he says and this is document -- it has not the

17     format of a telegram, of course.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you please give us a reference

19     where you found this portion of the testimony of Mr. Gojkovic for the

20     sake of the record.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps you mean Mr. Savcic,

22     because I was reading out the testimony of Mr. Savcic.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These are lines 7 to 14 and then

25     lines 16 and 17.  What I asked the witness about is in lines 13 and 14.

Page 3703

 1     Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   On the basis of what we read in Savcic's testimony and what we

 6     can see here, was this document signed by General Savcic?

 7        A.   As we see here, this document is not signed by Colonel, later on

 8     General, Savcic.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Does he claim in his testimony that the commander of

10     the military police never received this document?  Thank you.

11        A.   If we look at the transcript of his testimony, he says so also --

12     but I think he says also that he never discussed the contents of this

13     document or whatever, the order, you know, with the commander of the

14     military battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment.  If I correctly

15     remember the transcript.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I will read it out and you can have a look at it.

17     These are pages 15263, lines 1 to 5.  I'm only reading the last sentence

18     so I wouldn't read the entire transcript.

19             "The commander of the military police never received this

20     document and never acted in accordance with it."

21             This is my question:  If the military police commander never

22     received this document, as his commander claims, and if he never acted in

23     accordance with the contents of the document, does that indicate that he

24     never, ever received this document?  Thank you.

25        A.   I think this is also not up to me to assess the statement and

Page 3704

 1     document itself and testimony of the witnesses.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us whether judging by the form

 5     and the contents which we just saw - and can we please put it up on the

 6     screen once again, it is 125 - so that you can have a look and I don't

 7     have to read the transcript.  Thank you.  We can see it now.

 8             So, should this document be part of the collection of the

 9     protection regiment or of the Drina Corps?  And did you find any other

10     documents from the protection regiment in the Drina Corps collection?

11     Thank you.

12        A.   This document should be in both, in Drina Corps collection and

13     also in 65th Protection Regiment collection, if such exists, the Main

14     Staff collection.  And ...

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever see any document during your

16     investigation from the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment which was a

17     separate command unit of the Main Staff and which had its own log-book?

18     Thank you.

19        A.   Yes, I remember seeing few documents from 65th Protection

20     Regiment also in Drina Corps collection, not only that one but I believe

21     there are more documents, but from the top of my head I cannot tell which

22     one now.  But I remember reviewing this -- this collection here in

23     The Hague.  I seen more documents from 65th Protection Regiment, but I

24     don't remember the contents of these documents.  But I think this is

25     quite easy to check it.

Page 3705

 1        Q.   Thank you.  In the trials Popovic et al. and in this trial, were

 2     there any other documents which were tendered and which originate from

 3     the 65th Protection Regiment?  Are you aware of this as an investigator

 4     who investigated the whole matter and who testified in this trial?  Thank

 5     you.

 6        A.   I am aware.  I don't know.  Is the question rather not to me.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  As a unit, as an organisational and formation unit,

 8     was the 65th Protection Regiment as a command unit of the Main Staff an

 9     integral part of the Drina Corps or not?  Thank you.

10        A.   No, the 65th Protection Regiment was the unit of the Main Staff

11     of VRS, but operated in the area of responsibility of Drina Corps.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So did the Main Staff.  It was also active with all

13     the other units attached to the Main Staff.  It was also active in the

14     zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps.  Are you aware of that?  Thank

15     you.

16        A.   Having units of the Main Staff in the area of responsibility of

17     Drina Corps, yes, yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  By that logic, as they were located in the zone of

19     the Drina Corps, should then all the documents of these units be included

20     in the Drina Corps collection?  Thank you.

21        A.   I don't think so.  It depends of what kind of document it should

22     be, whether they -- what kind of communication did -- whether they

23     communicate between themselves or not.  They could send some documents to

24     Drina Corps.  But whether entire correspondence should be sent to

25     Drina Corps, I don't think so.

Page 3706

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show the document

 3     P233 on the right-hand side and keep the document that we have on the

 4     screen now on the left-hand side.  If this is not possible, can we please

 5     just show the document P233 on the left side of the screen in B/C/S and

 6     on the right-hand side in the English version.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, your first request -- at your first

 8     request we have these different documents now on the screen.  Sometimes

 9     it takes a little time.  You should be patient.  Continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

11     you.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can you see these two documents, Mr. Blaszczyk, and my question

14     is:  Were both of these documents tendered into evidence by the OTP

15     during your testimony?  Thank you.

16        A.   Yes, I believe, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  When they were tendered into evidence, was it

18     mentioned that the other document which we see on the right-hand side of

19     the screen was also found in the collection of the Drina Corps, which you

20     received in the manner that you described?  Thank you.

21        A.   I don't know, sir, from whom you have this information, but this

22     is not true.  This is not document from the Drina Corps collection.  I am

23     talking about documents from the right-hand side with ERN number

24     04230390.

25        Q.   Thank you.  So you claim that this document was not tendered into

Page 3707

 1     evidence as a document found as part of the Drina Corps collection, yes

 2     or no?  Thank you.

 3        A.   I know that this is document not from the Drina Corps collection.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Was it found there among the documents?  Thank you.

 5        A.   I can explain about -- a little bit about this document that --

 6     if Your Honour would like to hear it, of course.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, of course.

 8             THE WITNESS:  I remember receiving this document -- the copy of

 9     this document - I think it was that one - yes, I think first I received

10     this document -- a copy of this document from the source -- our source on

11     the field from Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And later on we managed to get

12     the original of this document from the member of the 10th Sabotage

13     Detachment, but definitely this document is not part of the Drina Corps

14     collection.  But I know this document and I received this document from

15     this man.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell the Trial Chamber if you received

18     it as a separate document or if you received it together with some other

19     documents from the 10th Sabotage Detachment.  Did you receive only this

20     document or not?  Thank you.

21        A.   As far as I remember, I received more documents from

22     10th Sabotage Detachment, not many, but a little bit more.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Were they all entered into the database?  Thank you.

24        A.   Yes, for sure.

25        Q.   Can you tell us who was the person who submitted this document

Page 3708

 1     and the other documents that you mentioned to you?  Thank you.

 2        A.   I believe the original document -- I met few members of the

 3     10th Sabotage Detachment, but I think this document I received from

 4     Dragan Todorovic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now show

 6     Exhibit 1D214.  Thank you.  Thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Please have a look at this document and on the basis of the

 9     contents and the markings, please tell us whether there are any elements

10     on the basis of which its authenticity can be assessed.  Thank you.

11        A.   Yes, we have the stamp of the unit who I believe received these

12     documents through teleprinter, and this document was teleprinted from the

13     Main Staff but to which unit I don't see here.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Let me help you.  It says:  "To the Drina Corps

15     command," and that is a command in the command structure of units.  Can

16     you see that?  Thank you.

17             Please look at the sixth line of text from above.  You see that

18     first is the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and then the

19     third paragraph, "to the command of the Drina Corps."  Can you see that?

20        A.   Yes, I see that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did this document pass through your hands as an

22     investigator and as it has the ERN number?

23        A.   Probably yes, but I don't remember this document.  But I see --

24     but based on ERN number I see that this document from Drina Corps

25     collection.  Probably I -- I seen this document in some stage.

Page 3709

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could we then say that this document has more

 2     elements on the basis of which it authenticity could be established than

 3     the one we had a look at previously and which was supposedly sent by the

 4     commander of the protection regiment, General Milomir Savcic?  Thank you.

 5        A.   The same, I can say that this document is printed out from

 6     teleprinter, and as I said, just to put a void between these two

 7     documents it's not up to me, it's rather up to Trial Chamber.  But looks

 8     for me this is -- this is original document for me.  But, yeah, better to

 9     have the original, of course, here, but it looks that original from some

10     markings here and also having the stamp of the person who received this

11     document, I believe.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please show the

14     document 73 in e-court.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is D73, marked for

17     identification.  As for the document that we still see on the screen,

18     which the witness assessed as authentic, I would tender it into evidence.

19     Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I recall correctly, it is P233, perhaps marked

21     for identification because we haven't finished the process.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Correction, Mr. Tolimir, I was told by the

24     Registrar that it is not tendered yet and it will be received now.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D75.

Page 3710

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you please have a look at page 3 of this document and the

 5     signature so that I could ask you questions which I have.  Please also

 6     take a look at the ERN number so that you could tell us which collection

 7     it belongs to.

 8        A.   Yeah, looking at ERN number, this is Drina Corps collection

 9     document.

10        Q.   Thank you.  As it's a document from the Drina Corps collection,

11     can you please have a look at the first line which says below point A:

12             "Convoys, teams, and individuals ..." et cetera "in the

13     Drina Corps zone of responsibility ..."

14             Does that also indicate that this document relates to the

15     Drina Corps?  Thank you.

16        A.   Yes, somehow this is related to Drina Corps, at least to the

17     activities in Drina Corps area of responsibility.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Please have a look at the last page now, as it

19     contains the signature of the author of this document.  Can you see in

20     the lower right-hand corner where it says:  "Captain Slavko Novakovic."

21     The text is in Serbian and it is handwritten.  Can you see the signature?

22        A.   Yes, I see.

23        Q.   Thank you.  On the basis of this signature, would you say that

24     this is an authentic document or not?  Thank you.

25        A.   I have no reason not to believe that this document is authentic.

Page 3711

 1     I believe that this is authentic document.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

 4     tender this document into evidence as the witness has confirmed its

 5     authenticity.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is not a correct statement.  The

 7     witness said:

 8             "I have no reason not to believe that this document is not

 9     authentic.  I believe that this is authentic document."

10             This is not a firm statement that it is in fact authentic.  There

11     is a slight difference.

12             [Microphone not activated]

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have nothing against

14     that.  It's for you to decide.  I suggest it be admitted into evidence on

15     the basis of what the witness has said, I believe that it is authentic

16     because it was entered as part of the Drina Corps collection and he

17     himself said that this document was an integral part of that collection

18     of documents.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is that correct, Witness?

20             THE WITNESS:  It's correct.  It's correct, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document will be received.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My following question --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.

24             We would like to receive that document number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This document, Exhibit D73, is now exhibit and

Page 3712

 1     not marked for identification.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             Please carry on now.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Have I interpreted what you said correctly?  You said that the

 6     documents were in Vlasenica-Bijeljina-Sokolac-Mali Zvornik;

 7     Mali Zvornik-Milanovac; Milanovac to the Republika Srpska MUP.  Then they

 8     went to Banja Luka.  So this is the trajectory of the documents you

 9     mentioned.  Then they arrived in the Prosecution's office in Banja Luka

10     and then in the Prosecution's office in Zagreb, and later they arrived at

11     the Tribunal.  Have I understood what you said correctly?  Thank you.

12        A.   Yes, but from Vlasenica to Bijeljina, from Bijeljina to Sokolac,

13     then Mali Zvornik, probably Milanovac in Serbia, and then return to RS,

14     first to Banja Luka, Zagreb, and The Hague.

15        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused, please.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone, please.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   When you entered these documents, you mentioned how they were

20     packed, unpacked, and so on and so forth.  I don't want to waste any time

21     on that.  On the basis of everything that we have seen in the course of

22     the previous testimony and on the basis of what we have found out now,

23     when these documents were being packed and unpacked in various places, in

24     Banja Luka and here at the Tribunal, when they were being put into new

25     boxes, was a record made of the way in which the documents were being

Page 3713

 1     repacked and on the contents of the documents?

 2        A.   There is the record how the documents were repacked and not about

 3     the contents of the documents because we had no time to look at entire

 4     collection very carefully what is in.  As I said, I made initial

 5     assessment in Zagreb only what is in, and then after making few copies

 6     and returning to The Hague we realised that this is Drina Corps

 7     collection, the documents from Drina Corps subordinated unit and

 8     Drina Corps itself.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  That's what I thought.  Thank you for that addition,

10     that information.  But since these documents were repacked, would it be

11     correct to say that they were being packed again so that is it would be

12     easier to transport them or was it because only certain documents were

13     documents of interest and others were returned to their initial users?

14     Thank you.

15        A.   No, it was repacked -- I mean, partially this is true that we

16     repacked these documents to -- easier to transport these documents to

17     The Hague -- to Zagreb and then to The Hague.  But no documents were

18     returned to initial users, what you said here.  Entire collection was

19     transported to The Hague.

20        Q.   Thank you for answering my question.  Please, would you now tell

21     me whether the person who packed the documents was from the investigation

22     team and did he need to have authorisation from someone in the Tribunal

23     to perform this work?  Thank you.

24        A.   But you mean situation on the 13th of December in Banja Luka when

25     we received this collection, is correct?

Page 3714

 1        Q.   Yes, I have Banja Luka in mind, Zagreb as well.  So could those

 2     who were involved in the transport do this of their own accord, or did

 3     they have to receive someone's approval in order to repack the documents?

 4     Thank you.

 5        A.   In both cases there were investigators, investigator on the field

 6     office in Banja Luka at that time and me personally at the field -- ICTY

 7     field office in Zagreb and also head of the office at that time in

 8     Zagreb.  And it was our decision, but of course our management in ICTY

 9     was informed about the situation.

10        Q.   Could you please tell us whether the texts that were drafted were

11     drafted here in the Tribunal or were they drafted by those who were

12     involved in the packing of the documents and in their transport to the

13     Tribunal, because in some cases documents have been redacted.  So were

14     documents redacted --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, the question was:

16     Were the documents or texts redacted, not drafted.

17             THE WITNESS:  But to which texts are you referring to?

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I'm interested in whether any of the contents of the documents

21     that were brought here -- I'm interested in whether anything was redacted

22     in those documents and whether that was done in the Tribunal.

23        A.   The documents itself, they are evidence.  We never redacted

24     anything from the evidence, unless it is for some reason, protection

25     reasons, something can be redacted -- can be used in a redaction version

Page 3715

 1     in the court.  But the documents itself were never redacted -- are never

 2     redacted here.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You don't know.  That's sufficient for me.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, that's not correct.  The answer of

 5     the witness was not that he doesn't know.

 6             Mr. Thayer.

 7             MR. THAYER:  And, Mr. President, just so we don't have to play a

 8     guessing game, if General Tolimir has some reason to believe that

 9     Drina Corps documents were redacted by the OTP in their original form,

10     then he should just put that to the witness so we don't have to, as I

11     said, play a guessing game.  If he's got something in mind, if he has a

12     good-faith basis to put that question, then he should just put that to

13     the witness; if he doesn't, then he should move on.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you got the answer of the witness,

15     that the documents itself were never redacted.  I think this is a very

16     clear answer.  This is not "I don't know."  And you should deal with the

17     request of Mr. Thayer.  Have you any indication that there were documents

18     redacted by the Prosecution?  That would be very interesting for the

19     Chamber.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I don't, Your Honour.  Thank

21     you.  I said that what the investigator said was sufficient for me;

22     that's why I asked him this question.  You can check the transcript.  I

23     said that what he said was sufficient for me.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was one sentence, and the other was:  "Thank

25     you.  You don't know."  And that was not the correct quotation of the

Page 3716

 1     answer of the witness.  Please carry on now.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  What the witness [sic]

 3     said could also be interpreted as:  You are not aware of that.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with regard to the

 6     transcript I'd like to say I didn't find a single redacted page.  I

 7     wanted to ask the witness about this and his answer is sufficient for me.

 8     I apologise if I caused any confusion.  I apologise to Mr. Thayer in that

 9     case and also to the witness.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is one of the occasions when we have

11     problems in interpretation, different ways of interpretation.  We leave

12     it like this and please carry on.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to thank

14     Mr. Blaszczyk for the answers he's provided to the questions put to him.

15     I'd like to thank Mr. Thayer as well.  And I have no further questions

16     for this witness.

17             Mr. President, I would also like to thank all the interpreters.

18     I do apologise if I read out certain segments very rapidly.  My legal

19     advisor warned me of that, but I thank you too and I think we fully

20     understand each other.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This can happen to everybody in the courtroom.

22             Mr. Thayer, do you have re-examination; and if yes, would you

23     commence the re-examination after the break?

24             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we have the second break now and we resume

Page 3717

 1     five minutes before 1.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

 7        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 8        A.   Good afternoon.

 9        Q.   Sir, do you have any reason to believe that any of the documents

10     contained in the Drina Corps collection were fabricated, falsified, or

11     altered in any way?

12        A.   No, I don't.

13        Q.   You testified in the -- in your last appearance here that the

14     collection or the archive was not complete.  Can you tell the

15     Trial Chamber what you meant by that.

16        A.   If you look at the numbers of the few documents and if you look

17     at the order of the number, we see that a lot of documents are missing.

18     I can refer, for example, to the security and intelligence documents,

19     that a lot of documents are missing from the collection.  Not only from

20     this collection, but also from other collection, collection of the

21     Main Staff, collection in Banja Luka, actually in the possession of

22     Ministry of Defence of RS, collection of East Bosnia Corps, a lot of

23     documents are missing.  But if we are referring to the Drina Corps

24     collection, definitely there are lot of gaps between these documents and

25     the dates, these particular dates, before, during, and after the fall of

Page 3718

 1     Srebrenica.

 2        Q.   And when you refer to the - and I'm just quoting from the

 3     transcript - the order of the number such that you could see that a lot

 4     of the documents were missing and you used the example of the security

 5     and intelligence organ documents, what do you mean when you say the order

 6     of the number?

 7        A.   I mean that each document or most of the documents has the

 8     number, his own number, and sequence number, it should be -- the

 9     following document should have the next document to the number indicating

10     the previous document.  But we see that there are a lot of gaps between

11     the particular documents.

12        Q.   Okay.  And that number that you're talking about, do we sometimes

13     refer to that as the strictly confidential number?

14        A.   Yes, especially if you are referring to operational orders or

15     security and intelligence documents.

16        Q.   Now, General Tolimir also asked you some questions about

17     documents that you may have seen that were originating from the

18     65th Motorised Protection Regiment.  First of all, who was the commander

19     of that regiment in July 1995, sir?

20        A.   At that time it was Colonel Savcic, he was the commander of

21     65th Protection Regiment.

22        Q.   The documents that you testified about seeing that originated

23     from that unit, can you tell the Trial Chamber did that come from --

24     well, I'll just ask you this:  Can you tell the Trial Chamber anything

25     about the source of those documents that originated from the

Page 3719

 1     65th Protection Regiment, search, RFA, or what?  Were they from a

 2     collection or can you just describe to the Trial Chamber what the source

 3     of those documents was?  How did we get them, if you can remember.

 4        A.   I believe in this Drina Corps collection we have few documents

 5     from 65th Protection Regiment.  I don't remember from the top of my head

 6     which documents they are, but I remember seeing documents.  I believe

 7     that there were documents definitely from the 65th Protection Regiment,

 8     but if any document -- it's possible that the documents were seized also

 9     in various search operations done by ICTY previously in Bratunac,

10     Zvornik, and other locations.

11        Q.   And those were of brigade headquarters or commands; is that

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes.  To the search operation in Zvornik and Bratunac, I'm

14     referring to the headquarters of the brigade -- of the brigades.

15        Q.   To your knowledge, was there any such search of the

16     65th Protection Regiment?

17        A.   I don't remember.  I don't think so.

18        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at P -- I think it's 125, the 13 July proposal

19     from General Tolimir that we've spent a lot of time on today.

20             General Tolimir asked you a number of questions about your

21     conclusions as an investigator, and I just want to ask you a couple of

22     questions concerning the document that we have before us.  Do you recall

23     what Danko Gojkovic had to say about the signature at the lower left-hand

24     corner of this document?

25        A.   He confirmed that this is his signature.

Page 3720

 1        Q.   And with the Usher's assistance I just hand up to you the

 2     original of this document.

 3             Sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber, is that an original

 4     signature or is that a photocopy of the signature identified by

 5     Mr. Gojkovic?

 6        A.   This is original signature.

 7        Q.   And you testified about some of the limitations that you faced as

 8     an investigator in terms of trying to authenticate or investigate certain

 9     documents, this one included.  I don't think there's any dispute that one

10     of the steps the OTP took was to interview Mr. Gojkovic and you're

11     familiar with that interview; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, it's correct.

13        Q.   Are you familiar with his testimony before this Trial Chamber?

14        A.   I followed in some extent his testimony here, but not entire one.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well, I just want to ask you a couple of quick questions

16     and see if that -- if you can tell the Trial Chamber whether it affects

17     your conclusion as an investigator about the authenticity of this

18     document.

19             At transcript page 2817 in this trial Mr. Gojkovic identified

20     that signature, that original signature, as his own.  And at page 2818 of

21     his testimony before this Trial Chamber, he testified that the fact that

22     he signed and wrote "delivered" on that document indicates that he

23     actually typed it into a teleprinter and sent it.  Were you aware that he

24     testified to that effect, Mr. Blaszczyk?

25        A.   Yes, I know it.

Page 3721

 1        Q.   And on page 2824 of the trial transcript he said - I think this

 2     is on cross-examination by General Tolimir - that that document that you

 3     have in your hands, P125, and I'll quote:

 4             "This is for me a confirmation from the other side, from my

 5     fellow teleprinter operator on the other side, who confirmed that it was

 6     well received."

 7             General Tolimir asked him again at page 2825:

 8             "Is the document of confirmation also one that was written by the

 9     typewriter or something else?"

10             And Mr. Gojkovic answered:

11             "Confirmation for me is the time written on the document ..."

12             And here we see that that's 1510 hours.  Is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, I remember this part of his testimony.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, I think we all know and we're -- we can all agree

15     that we don't have the teleprinter that was being used in the

16     Rogatica Brigade, so we have this typewritten version that Mr. Gojkovic

17     testified about receiving and then retyping into the teleprinter that we

18     don't have.

19             Now, General Tolimir asked you all kinds of question about how a

20     teleprinter works and what kind of traces it would leave, but for you as

21     an investigator, sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber how having the

22     actual teleprinter operator who confirmed that he sent this document and

23     identified his own original signature on it, how that affects your

24     conclusion about its authenticity.

25        A.   Of course after interviewing Danko Gojkovic and after hearing his

Page 3722

 1     testimony here in the court, my conclusion is that this is original

 2     document.

 3        Q.   And just so that there's no question on the record, how does it

 4     affect your conclusion about the authenticity of this document?

 5        A.   I would say that after hearing the testimony of Mr. Gojkovic and

 6     having interviewed him, I can only repeat that for me this is original

 7     document.

 8        Q.   And in your mind as an investigator, based on your investigation,

 9     is there any doubt that Mr. Gojkovic did what he said he did, which was

10     receive this in typed form that we have here, sent it out on a

11     teleprinter, and received confirmation from the teleprinter operator on

12     the other end.  Do you have any doubt as an investigator that that's what

13     happened?

14        A.   I have not.  I believe what Mr. Gojkovic said.

15        Q.   Now, let's look at this document and its particulars.  I want to

16     look at some of the elements of P125.  And if we look at the top line, it

17     says:  "Forward command post, 65th Motorised Protection Regiment, Borike

18     at 1400 hours."

19             Now, General Tolimir quoted to you from then Colonel Savcic, now

20     General Savcic's, testimony, where he said that:  "I didn't set up that

21     IKM."

22             Do you recall that, General Tolimir reading that testimony to

23     you, that General Savcic testified that he didn't set up that forward

24     command post?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 3723

 1        Q.   Are you aware of what General Savcic has stated in his OTP

 2     interview and testified in Popovic about whether he was, in fact, at the

 3     forward command post in Borike on this day at this time, 1400 hours on

 4     the 13th of July?

 5        A.   I don't remember his entire testimony, statement, but he confirms

 6     that he was in Borike in this period.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  General Savcic couldn't

 9     have been at a command place that he hadn't established.  Please, one

10     should specify which command post.  It's not a command -- it was not the

11     command post of the protection regiment and that's being discussed.  So

12     what does the Prosecution have in mind, in fact.  Could he please clarify

13     that.  Whose command post was he at?  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, could you help Mr. Tolimir?

15             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Mr. President.

16             The -- this might be a little tedious, but I'll take us step by

17     step.  Okay.

18        Q.   Sir, you stated that you weren't entirely familiar with

19     General Savcic's OTP statement and testimony, so I'll just take you to a

20     couple sections here.  He first says at transcript page 15246, line 7:

21             "There were two bases.  They were the Borike and Rogatica sectors

22     where these tasks were performed ..."

23             And he says later on at line 13:

24             "I was in the sector of the Sjeversko village towards Boksanica,

25     this is where I was at the forward command post of the brigade ..."

Page 3724

 1             Now, are you aware of a forward command post in the village of

 2     Sjeversko, sir?

 3        A.   Yes, I am, sir.  It was called also from time to time Borike

 4     forward command post.  But this place is located approximately

 5     4 kilometres on the road from Borike.  The village is called Sjeversko.

 6     In fact, Borike is visible from the place where forward command post was

 7     located, it was located at the school in Sjeversko.

 8        Q.   And if we go to the next page, transcript page 15247, at line 4

 9     we see that Colonel Savcic confirms that he was situated in Borike in

10     July of 1995 and that he would sleep at Borike, and that General Tolimir

11     arrived at the Borike sector.  And if we look at transcript page 15249,

12     line 10 and 9, we see Colonel Savcic again confirming that he was in the

13     sector of Sjeversko village and then he says:

14             "Borike is a more general and better-known term that we normally

15     use, but to be more precise, I was in the vicinity of the village of

16     Borike."

17             Okay.  So are you familiar with the forward command post in the

18     Sjeversko village that Colonel Savcic here refers to as Borike?

19        A.   Yes, I am.

20        Q.   Have you been there?

21        A.   Yes, I've been there a few times even.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, I'm not sure if there was -- if you

24     misspoke by quoting in lines 18 to 20 Borike is a more general and better

25     known term ..." and then you referred -- "... to be more precise to the

Page 3725

 1     vicinity of the village of," again, "Borike."  Perhaps you misspoke.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Indeed I did, Mr. President.  He was referring to

 3     the village of Sjeversko in the first instance and I'll just get that

 4     cite back.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have the impression that the witness understood

 6     you correctly and he was -- he answered your question by stating that he

 7     was in Sjeversko.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Actually, to be more precise, I didn't misquote the

 9     transcript.  Let me just read the paragraph from the beginning and that

10     will -- we can all go back and look at it later.  But it's page 15249,

11     line 9, Colonel Savcic, I think we'll all agree, is talking about

12     Major Malinic who is in Nova Kasaba at the time.  And in a couple moments

13     I'm going to ask some questions about that, but just to give you the

14     background:

15             "A.  He was in Nova Kasaba, and I was in the sector of Sjeversko

16     village.  Borike is a more general and better-known term that we normally

17     use, but to be more precise, I was in the vicinity of the village of

18     Borike."

19        Q.   So, sir, you've -- again you've been to this forward command post

20     that's in the Sjeversko village; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, it is correct.

22        Q.   Okay.  And you've told the Court that it is very close to Borike

23     and we have Savcic noting that they're basically interchangeable terms.

24     Now, let's look at the first line of this proposal from General Tolimir.

25     It says:

Page 3726

 1             "There are over a thousand members of the former 28th Division of

 2     the so-called BiH army captured in the area of Dusanovo (Kasaba).

 3     Prisoners were under control of the military police" --

 4             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think you can wait until

 6     Mr. Thayer has finished.  Then you will get the floor.

 7             MR. THAYER:  "... prisoners are under control of the military

 8     police battalion of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment ..."

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what is your concern?

10             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

11             [Interpretation] Thank you.  Mr. Thayer told us to look at the

12     first line of General Tolimir.  Did he mean General Savcic because this

13     information was not given by Tolimir.  So can we please correct the

14     record so that we have in the transcript the name of the person who

15     provided the information rather than my name.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

17             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, this document is clear in its

18     reference to the proposal originating from the assistant commander for

19     security and intelligence affairs of the VRS Main Staff.  That is

20     General Tolimir, unless he is going to dispute that fact in this trial.

21     That is what I am referring to here as the proposal that's explicitly

22     referred to as coming from General Tolimir.

23        Q.   Now, General Tolimir asked you some questions --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can it please be

Page 3727

 1     established, what is this based on, that the first sentence comes from

 2     Tolimir?  Where is any relation with Tolimir here?  Is Tolimir the one

 3     who is providing this information here or is it someone else?  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I'm going to continue with my line of

 6     questioning if it's all the same to the Court and not waste time with

 7     what we can all see with our own eyes.  Now --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the moment, to avoid any conflict, we are

 9     looking at a document signed by commander Lieutenant-Colonel

10     Milomir Savcic.  This is out of any dispute, I think.

11             MR. THAYER:  That is certainly not in dispute, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And now you are trying to get some more

13     information from the witness about the background of this document.

14             MR. THAYER:  Yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

16             MR. THAYER:  And I'm focusing everyone's attention on the first

17     paragraph that refers specifically to General Tolimir's proposal.  This

18     is where it says the:

19             "Assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of the

20     VRS Main Staff proposes the following measures ..."

21             And again, I don't think General Tolimir is disputing the fact

22     that that is him.  He held that position in the VRS for the entirety of

23     the war and did so in July of 1995.

24        Q.   Now, General Tolimir asked you some questions and read you

25     some --

Page 3728

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir again.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I do not refute any of

 3     the functions that I performed in my life.  I'm proud of every one of

 4     them.  But please, you cannot extract any contents from this document

 5     where someone is saying something about General Tolimir.  Someone else is

 6     providing this information about Kasaba, not Tolimir.  Please take this

 7     into account and please let us have Mr. Thayer correct this for the

 8     transcript because the document says something quite different.  You

 9     cannot take the second paragraph as the starting point of the document.

10     Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think it is very clear on the

12     transcript that Mr. Thayer is referring to a specific position and you

13     are not disputing that you hold this position at the relevant time, and

14     everything else will be developed now by Mr. Thayer.

15             Please carry on.

16             MR. THAYER:

17        Q.   Now, the information that's reported here in the first line, that

18     there are over 1.000 members of the former 28th Division of the so-called

19     BiH army captured in the area of Kasaba, are you aware from your

20     investigations, sir, of any information that, first of all, corroborates

21     this information in this proposal, that there were a thousand members --

22     over a thousand members of the Armija in Kasaba?

23        A.   Yes, this is corroborating information we received during our

24     investigation from various witnesses, Serbs, Bosniaks, and also Dutch

25     Battalion members, that in Nova Kasaba soccer field there were kept about

Page 3729

 1     1.000 prisoners of VRS -- I mean Muslim prisoners captured by VRS.

 2        Q.   And the Trial Chamber has heard some of that testimony already

 3     and it's before the Trial Chamber in other forms as well.  Are you

 4     familiar with any intercepts that were taken during this period of time

 5     that also confirm the information that's contained in this document, in

 6     this proposal from General Tolimir?

 7        A.   I mentioned only witnesses, but also --

 8             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think before you raise your objection.

10             Mr. Thayer, you should be a little bit more careful by phrasing

11     your questions.  This is a document.  You can draw from the document some

12     conclusions, but you should not mention his name in this respect because

13     it is not authenticated by Mr. Tolimir himself.  Please, it's only a

14     question of rephrasing your words.  Please carry on.

15             MR. THAYER:  Very well, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Sir, you --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment.

18             Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object to this question because

20     the Prosecutor intends to lead the witness into saying --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is a leading question.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I've expressed my concern about the

24     way this last question was put to the witness.  I think leave now

25     Mr. Thayer conducting his re-examination.

Page 3730

 1             MR. THAYER:

 2        Q.   Sir, are you familiar with --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But please, do not record in the

 4     transcript that I said this because I have not signed this document and I

 5     have not provided it.  So please, if this could be corrected in the

 6     transcript.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, Mr. Tolimir.  The transcript reflects what is

 8     happening in court and we have had now the transcript what Mr. Thayer

 9     said, your objection, my concern, everything is on the transcript and is

10     very transparent for everybody.  There is no way to correct that.

11             Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.

12             MR. THAYER:

13        Q.   Sir, are you aware that there were intercepts that were taken at

14     about this time concerning the events that are described here in this

15     first paragraph?

16        A.   Yes, I am, I am.  I remember.  I referred only to the witness

17     statements and witness testimony, but I am aware also about intercepts.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. THAYER:  Let's look at P410A and P410B, please.  Actually, we

20     can just make do with 410A.  We don't need both.  410A will be the

21     handwritten notebook version of this intercept.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  This

24     question does not follow from the cross-examination.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

Page 3731

 1             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, this question follows directly from

 2     General Tolimir's cross-examination of Mr. Blaszczyk.  He has put the

 3     authenticity of this document squarely at issue.  He has raised questions

 4     about Danko Gojkovic's credibility.  He has quoted extensively from

 5     General Savcic's testimony.  This goes directly to the issue of the

 6     authenticity of this document.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is, in my view, sufficient.  Please carry

 8     on.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, I think all your responses and objections are

10     followed.  Please, what is your objection now?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My objection is that this is not a

12     discussion with Mr. Tolimir which is shown now.  These are other

13     participants, so someone who has nothing to do with this document cannot

14     discuss about the authenticity of this document.  I do not think that

15     Mr. Blaszczyk even knows who are the participants in this particular

16     conversation.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We can judge that after having heard the answer

18     of the witness.

19             Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.

20             MR. THAYER:

21        Q.   We can see here, Mr. Blaszczyk, that in the second line there's a

22     reference to:

23             "I have over a thousand."

24             And further down the participant specifies that:

25             "They are down here at the soccer field."

Page 3732

 1             And again, based on your investigation of this case in the Kasaba

 2     area, was there a particular location where a large group of Muslim

 3     prisoners were being held by the VRS?

 4        A.   It was the only place that this soccer field of -- this is soccer

 5     field in Nova Kasaba, the only place in this area.

 6        Q.   And then we see a reference to a "Rade, Zoka, and others have

 7     just arrived."

 8             During the course of your investigation, sir, are you aware of

 9     anybody in particular whose nickname is Zoka?

10        A.   I don't remember.  I know a few names with these names -- people

11     with these names, but I don't know to whom it's -- the person who is

12     talking he's referring to.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at P411A -- oh, by the way, before we dispense

14     with this document can you note what the time is of this intercept, sir?

15        A.   It is written here 1400 hours.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. THAYER:  Now, may we have P411A, please.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

20             [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  There is no date or

21     place noted here.  Could Mr. Thayer ask the witness about this, if the

22     witness perhaps knows that.  Thank you.

23             MR. THAYER:  Well, Mr. President, I can certainly refer everybody

24     to 410B which is the print-out which will show the date clearly, but I

25     don't think we need to waste further court time.  I'll just note for the

Page 3733

 1     record that 410B is the print-out version which will bear the date of the

 2     conversation.  If there are any further questions we can return to that

 3     later.  But if I may continue in the time we have left.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have this document admitted.

 5             MR. THAYER:

 6        Q.   Now we have here an intercept time of 1405 hours, sir.  Do you

 7     see a reference in the middle of the intercept that starts with:

 8             "Bro, don't take anyone."  And this is after there's a reference

 9     to the soccer field.  Do you see that?

10        A.   Yes, I see.

11        Q.   And what does he say after that?

12        A.   "I will send you an urgent telegram now, don't take anyone.  I'll

13     send you the telegram now and explain it to you.

14             "Go ahead.

15             "Secure it well and you will get it now in telegram.

16             "Fine.

17             "Cheers.

18             "I will do nothing before that.

19             "Nothing."

20        Q.   And again, 1411B [sic] will be the print-out version of this.

21     And I can represent for the Court that that date is 13 July 1995 for both

22     of these intercepts.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please, for the record, repeat the

24     number.

25             MR. THAYER:  411B, bravo, for the print-out.

Page 3734

 1             Now, sir, 65 ter 765, please, if we might.  This is a new

 2     document that does not have a P number.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  How can

 5     this be evidence, something that resulted later on from a document?  It

 6     says that at 1400 it was received when it was typed out, and it says that

 7     it was sent at 1400 hours.  What does that have to do with this document

 8     and what does that have to do with Tolimir?  Can that please be shown.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

10             MR. THAYER:  If I may continue, Mr. President.  I think that's a

11     matter for submissions that we'll gladly make any time, but I think the

12     timing of these intercepts and the time that's listed on P125 speak for

13     themselves.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, to clarify the situation, you are not

15     under time pressure.  Therefore, we can continue with this witness

16     tomorrow for your re-examination.

17             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I can understand that Mr. Tolimir's very

19     interested in some questions he is raising.

20             But, Mr. Tolimir, we have no problem with these documents.  They

21     are already admitted.  They are in evidence.  We have the documents

22     already and everybody can look at it, the time, the date, and everything,

23     and the content.  So there's no reason for your concern in this respect.

24             Mr. Thayer, please carry on.

25             MR. THAYER:

Page 3735

 1        Q.   Sir, we have another intercept here.  The time indicated is

 2     1602 hours, and again I can represent that this is on the 13th of July,

 3     1995.  You see the reference to Kasaba in the first line.  Do you see

 4     that, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   "I've got an extension down in Kasaba."

 7             And then he follows up and says:

 8             "Where Malinic's unit is."

 9             And again, sir, who is Malinic?

10        A.   Malinic is Zoran Malinic.  They called him Zoka also.  It could

11     be Zoka.  He is the commander of the military battalion of the

12     65th Motorised Protection Regiment.

13        Q.   And who is Mr. Malinic's direct superior, sir?

14        A.   His direct superior is Colonel Milomir Savcic, at that time

15     Lieutenant-Colonel Milomir Savcic.

16        Q.   And where was the headquarters of Mr. Malinic's unit in

17     July of 1995 or at this time when this intercept was taken, sir?

18        A.   Malinic's unit -- Major Malinic's unit was located at that time

19     in Nova Kasaba, in the school located in Nova Kasaba, just a few hundred

20     metres from soccer field in Nova Kasaba.

21        Q.   And then we can see that the reference is to 1500 gathered at the

22     stadium in Kasaba.  Do you see that, sir?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   And having had an opportunity to review these three intercepts

25     again today, how does that correspond, first, with what you've learned

Page 3736

 1     through the course of your investigation from, as you said, survivors,

 2     Serb soldiers, and others; and number two, how does that correspond with

 3     what we're seeing here in this document?

 4        A.   In fact, this confirms what we learned during our investigation,

 5     the documents, intercepts, and also the witness statements.

 6        Q.   And so as an investigator, sir, who's worked on this case for a

 7     long time, how accurate would you say, based on your investigation, this

 8     first line here is about the thousand members of the Muslim army being

 9     captured at Kasaba?

10        A.   I am sure that this is correct information.  We know that many

11     people, more than 1.000 people were kept at Nova Kasaba soccer field and

12     were captured along the road Konjevic Polje-Milici and then put on the

13     location of Nova Kasaba soccer field.

14        Q.   Now, sir, were you or did you become aware during the course of

15     your investigation of a conversation over the radio telephone between

16     Colonel Savcic and Major Malinic on the 13th of July about these over a

17     thousand prisoners at Kasaba?

18        A.   I think there was such conversation, but I don't remember it.

19        Q.   Okay.  Well, at the transcript page 15255 of the Popovic trial,

20     General Savcic testified about a conversation that he had with

21     Major Malinic about those prisoners and how they should be treated.  Were

22     you aware of that testimony, sir?  Does that help you refresh your

23     recollection at all?

24        A.   Yes, yes, yes, Colonel Savcic testified that he had conversations

25     with Malinic.

Page 3737

 1        Q.   And if we look at transcript page 15256, do you recall what, if

 2     anything, General Savcic said - before that's broadcast - about where

 3     General Savcic was during the conversation and where General Tolimir was

 4     during that conversation?

 5        A.   I have no transcript.

 6        Q.   Well, my first question is:  Do you have any recollection of that

 7     testimony?  And if you don't, then I can show you that transcript.

 8        A.   Very roughly.  I don't to the full extent.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's look at transcript page 15256 of

10     General Savcic's testimony.  He previously began discussing this

11     conversation he had with Major Malinic on the 13th of July, and he is

12     asked the question, I think by Mr. Vanderpuye at the time, and I quote:

13             "And during your conversation with Mr. Malinic on the 13th, while

14     you were in Borike, do you know where General Tolimir was?"

15             And General Savcic's answer was at line 4:

16             "I think -- in fact, I know he was somewhere there.  He might

17     even have been standing next to me.  I can't remember."

18             And the follow-up question is:

19             "And do you know whether or not he was aware of the situation

20     that Major Malinic was relating to you on the telephone at the time?"

21             Savcic's answer is:

22             "He knew.  He was aware of that, if only from the conversation I

23     had with Malinic.  But whether he also had communications with other

24     people in that broader area, I couldn't tell you.

25             "As for the events in Nova Kasaba, he knew about that.  He was

Page 3738

 1     around, standing next to me.  But I don't know about any other

 2     communications he might have had."

 3             Who is the "he" to whom General Savcic is referring here when he

 4     says "he was standing next to me" and he knew about this conversation

 5     between General Savcic and Major Malinic?

 6        A.   He is referring to General Tolimir.

 7             MR. THAYER:  I see we're out of time, Mr. President, and I do

 8     have just a couple of additional questions for tomorrow.  We - I can tell

 9     the Court - also have some video we're prepared to play.  We won't fill

10     the entire day, I'm afraid.  We did our best to fill the day for the week

11     and then we lost the witnesses, as you know, and some of the cross got

12     shortened considerably.  So that's the projection for tomorrow.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think taking into account that we are just

14     before the summer recess, it is always very difficult to schedule the

15     right witnesses to fill all court time.  There's no concern about that.

16     We will see what you will provide us for tomorrow, and we -- at the end

17     of this witness's testimony we should deal with some exhibits and exhibit

18     numbers which have been marked for identification a long time ago.

19             MR. THAYER:  Yes, old habits die hard.  I'm sorry, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

21             Witness, again you are -- have to be here tomorrow morning at

22     9.00, I think in Courtroom III as well, and please be reminded no contact

23     about the content of your testimony with any party.

24             THE WITNESS:  Of course, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 3739

 1             We adjourn and resume tomorrow in the morning at 9.00.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day of

 4                           July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.