1 Friday, 20 August 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody. Ms. Chittenden,
6 welcome again to the courtroom. The next witness is ready, is it the
8 MS. CHITTENDEN: Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,
9 everyone in the courtroom. Our next witness is Witness 116, who will be
10 known by the pseudonym PW-049. He will be testifying with facial
11 distortion today, and yes, he is ready to be brought in. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then the witness will be brought in, please.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. Welcome to the Tribunal.
15 Would you please read aloud the affirmation to tell the truth which is
16 shown to you on the card now.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And nothing
19 but the truth.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. And now please sit down.
21 You know the procedure in this Tribunal. There are protective measures
22 in place for you, and I think Ms. Chittenden, for the Prosecution, has
23 some questions for you.
24 Ms. Chittenden.
25 WITNESS: PW-049
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Examination by Ms. Chittenden:
3 Q. Good morning, Witness.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. We met on Wednesday. My name is Caitlin Chittenden and I'll be
6 asking you some questions today on behalf of the Office of the
8 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please could we have P720 in e-court.
9 Q. Witness, you'll see something come up on the screen now. Please
10 could you read it to yourself and confirm that it's your name written
11 next to PW-049.
12 MS. CHITTENDEN: This should not be broadcast, please.
13 Q. Is that your name in front of -- next to PW-049, Witness?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I would like to tender this as an
16 exhibit under seal, please.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
18 MS. CHITTENDEN:
19 Q. Witness, do you recall providing a statement to the Office of the
20 Prosecutor on 26 February 2007?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was your statement at that time truthful and accurate?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Have you had the opportunity to review that statement before
25 coming to testify here today?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If you were asked the same questions again in court today, would
3 you respond in the same way?
4 A. Yes, roughly.
5 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, at this time I would like to offer
6 into evidence the witness's statement to the Office of the Prosecutor.
7 It is P719, under seal.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
9 MS. CHITTENDEN:
10 Q. Witness, do you recall testifying in the case of Prosecutor and
11 Popovic et al. on 6 March 2007?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was your testimony at that time truthful and accurate?
14 A. Yes, truthful.
15 Q. Have you had the opportunity to listen to that testimony again
16 before coming here today?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If you were asked the same questions again in court today, would
19 you answer in the same way?
20 A. The same, yes.
21 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I would now like to offer into
22 evidence the witness' testimony in Popovic. It is P717, under seal; and
23 P718, public version.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
25 MS. CHITTENDEN: I would also like to offer into evidence at this
1 time the two intercepts admitted as exhibits during that testimony. For
2 the record, they are P723, A and B, and P724, A and B.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received.
4 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I would now like to read a short
5 summary of the witness's OTP statement and testimony in the Popovic case.
6 Q. Witness, after I read out the summary, I'll have a few further
7 questions for you.
8 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, if we may move into private
9 session for just a moment, please.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
11 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session.
3 MS. CHITTENDEN: In 1994, the witness joined the Anti-Electronic
4 Warfare Unit of the ABiH 2nd Corps and was assigned to the southern site
5 upon the invitation of his platoon commander. (redacted)
7 (redacted). At the southern site, the witness's platoon of ten men worked
8 in shifts of ten days, rotating every 8 hours. The witness described the
9 procedure he used to intercept, record and transcribe radio
10 communications, and this is set out in paragraph 3 of his witness
11 statement, Exhibit P719.
12 Once an intercepted conversation was transcribed, it would be
13 forwarded to the typist who would type, date, and send out reports of the
14 conversations to the command in Tuzla. The witness worked at the
15 southern site until he was demobilised in November 1996. Prior to the
16 witness's testimony in the Popovic case, he reviewed originals and
17 photocopies of two handwritten intercepts which he confirmed he had
18 intercepted, recorded and transcribed. For the record, these are P723
19 and 724A. The witness also reviewed two typewritten print-outs of
20 intercepts and confirmed that they contained the same conversation as the
21 two intercepts he confirmed transcribing. For the record, these are P723
22 and 724B.
23 Your Honours, that concludes my summary, I now have a few
24 questions to ask the witness, if I may.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please, go ahead.
1 MS. CHITTENDEN:
2 Q. Witness, I would like to show you a booklet of four intercepts
3 that we have compiled.
4 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please may I ask for the assistance of the
5 Court Usher. For the record, these intercepts are Exhibits P721 through
7 Q. Now, Witness, I don't want to you look in detail through every
8 page in this booklet, but can you please turn to each of the four red
9 tabs I have marked and let me know whether you recognise your handwriting
10 on these intercepts.
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, for the record, the intercepts the
12 witness is looking at are Exhibits P721 through 724A, and I have just
13 tabbed them so he can navigate easily through the booklet.
14 Q. Witness, please now could you look through the intercepts that
15 I've tabbed in red on the top and let me know if you recognise your
16 handwriting, and I also have the original notebooks here if you find that
17 easier to look at.
18 A. Yes, that's it. Yes, that's it.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness. Were you the operator who recorded and
20 transcribed these four intercepted conversations?
21 A. Yes, I was.
22 Q. Did you review these four intercepts before you testified today?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you also review the four -- sorry, the original notebooks
25 containing those four intercepts?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do the copies in the booklet there conform to the four intercepts
3 in the original notebooks that you reviewed?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you also review the print-out versions of these intercepts?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do the print-out versions reflect the same conversations as
8 the handwritten versions of the intercepts?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'd just like to ask you a different
11 question now. In the Popovic case, you were asked about an intercept
12 that you transcribed between Colonel Cerovic and General Krstic at
13 1132 on 23 July 1995. You testified that you were not sure how you were
14 able to identify Cerovic as one of the speakers as his name did not
15 appear in the text of the conversation. Do you have any additional
16 explanation for that now?
17 A. Yes, I do. When the conversation was recorded we had devices in
18 front of us that scanned the matter and looked for frequencies, and in
19 front of me, I had an UHER, and the device scans for some time and then
20 stops at the frequency where the voice is heard. And when the colonel,
21 Colonel Cerovic started speaking, I heard it was -- I heard
22 Colonel Cerovic asking to speak to someone else, but I failed to switch
23 the UHER device on straight away, but I did hear his name.
24 Q. Thank you, Witness.
25 MS. CHITTENDEN: For the record, this was P724 in our case, and
1 the reference in the Popovic case to the transcript 6 March 2007, T8332
2 to 8333, where the witness was asked about this question.
3 Q. Witness, I would like to ask you about a different topic now.
4 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, may we move into private session
5 for the next couple of questions, please.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
7 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session.
24 MS. CHITTENDEN:
25 Q. Witness, do you know if the intercept operators at the northern
1 site you just mentioned were able to intercept the same conversations as
2 you were at the southern site?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you aware of any specific instances where that occurred?
5 A. Well, yes, in this case I recorded a telegram and I saw that my
6 colleague at the northern site recorded that same telegram.
7 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'd like to show you a copy of your telegram
8 or intercept now. If you could turn to the red tab 4 in your booklet,
10 MS. CHITTENDEN: Which is page 723A, for record, behind tab 4 in
11 everyone's intercept booklets. If we could please have this up in
12 e-court, too.
13 Q. Witness, if you wouldn't mind opening the intercept booklet and
14 just going to the tab 4. I also have the original if you prefer to look
15 at that.
16 MS. CHITTENDEN: If I could ask the Court Usher, maybe.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you. Judge Nyambe has a
19 JUDGE NYAMBE: I have a question for the witness. Witness, I
20 just have a clarification, in line 22, page 8 of your -- of the
21 Lotus Notes transcript, to a question you said:
22 "Well, yes, in this case I recorded a telegram and I saw that my
23 colleague at the northern site recorded the same telegram."
24 How did you come to know this, how did you know? Since you were
25 in the northern site and the site where you were at different locations?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. The interpreter did not
2 hear the answer. The microphone was not working, thank you. Could the
3 witness repeat it.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please go a little bit further towards
5 the microphone, that would be helpful. Please repeat your answer.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second conversation, the one
7 that my colleague recorded, I saw it a few days beforehand and it was
8 almost the same document that I recorded.
9 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, if I may interrupt you, I will be
10 asking him a few questions about this later which might clarify it. If
11 that's okay.
12 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay.
13 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you.
14 Q. Witness, if you can have a look at the original notebook that I
15 just passed to you, which for everyone's records, it's 723A. Can you
16 again just identify that that is your handwriting, please. It's one of
17 the intercepts you looked at this morning.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Witness, let's take a moment to look at this intercept. For the
20 record, we can see on the top of the page the frequency 255.950. We can
21 see the time, which is 1 and then something 58. And the participants.
22 Can you see that? Either on the notebook or on the screen, the
23 participants X, Colonel Deic, and Miletic? Now, Witness, take a moment,
24 as you are doing, to briefly read through the intercepted conversation
25 for us.
1 For the record and for everyone, we can see the conversation goes
2 as follows. On the third line of the conversation, X asks, "Who's
3 there?" D responds, "Colonel Deic." X says, "Is Miletic there?" Then
4 later on, a bit further down in the conversation, X asks, "Has Toso
5 arrived?" M responds, "Yes, he is waiting for you where you told him."
6 X says, "Is there anything to be signed?" M says, "Yes, there's nothing
7 urgent. I mean, there is something, but it's nothing urgent. It can all
8 wait." And X says, "Wait for me at 272." And the conversation finishes
9 a few lines later.
10 Witness, can you see that there that your notebook?
11 A. Yes, I can.
12 Q. Thank you, Witness. If you can just close that notebook for a
13 moment, I'd like to show you a different intercept that we haven't looked
14 at today.
15 MS. CHITTENDEN: If I may ask for the assistance of the court
16 usher again. It's behind the green tab in your book, if you'd like to
17 look. And for everyone that's P723C.
18 Q. I'll also pass you this so you can see it more easily. This is
19 the original notebook.
20 Witness, take a look at this intercept here, is this in your
22 A. No.
23 Q. Witness, let's take a moment to look at this intercept together.
24 For the record, we can see the frequency 255.950, and I'm halfway down
25 the page in the B/C/S for everyone's information. We can see the time of
1 1359, and we can see the participants, Colonel Devic, Miletic, and Z.
2 Now, Witness, let's take a moment to briefly read through that
3 conversation together. For the record, we can see the conversation goes
4 as follows. On the first line, which is midway down the page, Z asks,
5 "Who's that?" D responds, "Colonel Devic." Z asks, "Is Miletic there?"
6 Then later on in the conversation, Z asks, "Has Toso come?" M responds,
7 "Yes, he is waiting for you where you told him to wait." Z says, "Is
8 there anything to be signed?" M, "No, nothing that cannot wait." Z
9 says, "Wait for me at 272."
10 Then the conversation finishes a few lines later.
11 Witness, do you recognise the conversation recorded in this
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Witness, is this an example of a conversation which was
15 intercepted and recorded at both the northern and southern sites?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And, Witness, just to clarify, you were not the operator who
18 recorded this version of the conversation?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And you became aware and you saw this conversation for the first
21 time when I showed it to you during a proofing session on Wednesday?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you were not aware of it before that?
24 A. No.
25 MS. CHITTENDEN: May I ask Your Honours, is that -- does that
1 answer your question or would you like me to continue?
2 JUDGE NYAMBE: [Microphone not activated]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
4 JUDGE NYAMBE: [Microphone not activated]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have to wait a moment because the microphone
6 is not working, Judge Nyambe.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: [Microphone not activated] ... just to clarify one
8 more thing. In his answer, he said:
9 "The second conversation, the one that my colleague recorded, I
10 saw it a few days beforehand."
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honour, I may ask him that question again
12 just to clarify, if you would like.
13 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes, please.
14 MS. CHITTENDEN:
15 Q. Witness, you heard the Judge's question then. When you responded
16 to Her Honour's question before about when you saw this notebook and this
17 intercept in front of you now and you said "a few days before," what did
18 you mean by that?
19 A. I saw the telegram, the same telegram -- or, rather, the notes or
20 the same telegram that I recorded and I realised that my colleague
21 recorded the same thing on the west side. That's what I saw.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness. When did you see this, your colleague's
23 notebook for the first time? When was that?
24 A. A couple of days ago. Two days ago, I don't know. When I
25 arrived here.
1 Q. Thank you, Witness. So just to clarify, it wasn't in 1995 that
2 you were talking about, was it, when you said "a few days before"?
3 A. No, no, no.
4 Q. You were referring to --
5 A. Two days ago when I arrived here, that's when I saw those notes.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness.
7 MS. CHITTENDEN: Judge, does that answer your question. Thank
9 Q. Thank you, Witness.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask an additional question, please.
11 Sir, you are using the term "telegram," what do you mean by that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that means a telegram. That
13 means that I heard what I heard, that I recorded it.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is in your understanding a telegram, what
15 you recorded?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, that's the term we used.
17 Telegram. A conversation. We called it a telegram.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: Mr. President, would you like me to clarify that
20 further or is that ...
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, that would be helpful.
22 MS. CHITTENDEN:
23 Q. Witness, you heard Mr. President's question just then. Just so
24 we are clear, when you refer to the word "telegram," are you referring to
25 the conversation that you intercepted, recorded, and transcribed in the
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. And that's what I've been referring to when I've been
4 questioning you as an intercept or a intercepted conversation. Is that
5 the same thing as a telegram, what you are meaning?
6 A. Intercepted conversation, well, yes, but we call them telegrams.
7 That was the habit we had. But, yeah, you can call them intercepted
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. CHITTENDEN: Mr. President, is that -- thank you.
11 Your Honours, at this time I would like to admit the intercepts 723C and
12 D into evidence. That is the handwritten notebook of the intercept we've
13 just been looking at with the witness and the printed version, and the
14 printed version should be under seal, please.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
16 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you. Your Honours, that concludes my
17 questions for this witness. However, there is one final document on my
18 exhibit list that I would like to tender and it's P723E, under seal. I
19 won't be asking the witness any questions about this document, and as it
20 is a MUP intercept report which includes verbatim the intercepted
21 conversation we have just seen in P723C and D, and which we have just
22 heard from the witness's testimony was recorded by a colleague of his at
23 the northern site and records the same conversation as his intercept in
24 P723A and B. So I would like to move for this into evidence but I won't
25 be asking the witness about this.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as well.
2 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, that concludes my questioning.
3 Thank you, Witness.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Ms. Chittenden.
5 Sir, you know we are now turning to the cross-examination by
6 Mr. Tolimir.
7 Mr. Tolimir, please.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
9 like to welcome everybody in the courtroom, the Prosecutor, the witness,
10 yourself. And may peace reign in this house, and may these proceedings
11 finish in accordance with the God's will and not mine.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, since you and I speak the same language, we'll have to
15 make breaks between my question and your answer. Every time I finish my
16 question I'll say "thank you" and then you wait for a couple of minutes,
17 two or three minutes, and then you start answering. Thank you. Can we
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. In your statement, which is 719 --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be displayed on the screen
22 for the benefit of the witness, thank you. We don't have it yet, but
23 yes, here it is.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] We see the first page of your
25 statement that you provided on the 26th of February, 2007. Why didn't
1 you sign this statement in your language and you signed it in English?
2 Is your English better than your own mother tongue? Thank you.
3 A. I don't speak English, sir. I don't speak English.
4 Q. Thank you. Tell us was the statement typed when you were in
5 being interviewed or was it typed subsequently and then you were
6 subsequently given the statement to sign?
7 A. I can't remember exactly but it is possible it was typed
9 Q. Thank you. Were you able to review the statement before you came
10 here to testify?
11 A. Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we turn to page 2 in this
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. And I would like to ask the witness whether he adheres by
16 everything that he said in the statement and whether he agrees that that
17 is indeed the statement that he provided, given the fact that it hasn't
18 been signed?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Can you please look at the second paragraph where it
21 says number 2, line 5, where you say:
22 "I don't know the name of the unit." Did you find it? The
24 (redacted) it says:
25 "I don't know the name of the unit but it was an electronic
1 monitoring unit." Were you able to find that?
2 A. Just a moment, bear with me, please.
3 Q. Line 6, paragraph 2.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I'm not mistaken, we have to redact page 17,
5 line 5.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Witness, it doesn't really matter, just tell us whether you are
9 able to find it in the text?
10 A. No, I can't find it.
11 Q. But can you count in paragraph 2, where it says, "2," we are not
12 going to line 1, we are not going to read line 2, 3, 4, and 5. We are
13 not going to read the first three words in line 6, and then we start
14 reading at -- we are -- "I don't know the name of the unit." Do you see
15 that, "I don't know the name of the unit but it was an electronic
16 monitoring unit"? Do you see that sentence?
17 A. No, I can't. I can't find it.
18 Q. Then you read back to me what you read in line 5 in your own
19 language. Line 6.
20 A. Line 6:
21 "I don't know the name of the unit but it was an electronic
22 monitoring unit." That's that.
23 Q. Thank you. Thank you. In the meantime, did you learn the name
24 of the unit from the moment when you provided the statement until today?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could you tell us what unit that was?
2 A. It was a unit for electronic surveillance.
3 Q. Was that its establishment name?
4 A. At the beginning there was an abbreviation PEP, P-E-P, and then
5 that was altered into a unit for electronic monitoring and surveillance,
6 something to that effect.
7 Q. Thank you. And now count from the bottom of the page in the
8 second paragraph, the fifth line from the bottom of the second paragraph,
9 and in that line it says:
10 "We were working in shifts. We were rotating every 8 hours, and
11 one platoon (redacted)"
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, we will do that.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you. It doesn't really matter. Since you worked in
17 shifts, can you please describe how that happened, how that was
19 A. Yes, we did work in shifts and each shift was every hours. There
20 were three of us working in one shift and the others were free. There
21 were three shifts, each lasted for eight hours. That's how things were
22 organised. And we were there for ten days and then after ten days we
23 would go home to rest.
24 Q. So you worked for eight hours in one day, did I understand you
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. My next question is this: Your device, did it have a
3 scanner or an automatic frequency search?
4 A. It did have a scanner. It was not an automatic process, but yes,
5 the frequencies were scanned.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you also record the date when the conversations
7 were recorded, when transcripts were made?
8 A. Yes, of course. That was mandatory. And date and the names of
9 the participants in the conversations if we heard their names. If not,
10 then we would just record the names as unknown.
11 Q. Could you please now look at paragraph 3, line 6 in that
12 paragraph. The first five words we are not going to read, but then it
14 "The procedure was such that we noted down the time and the
15 participants. I'm not sure about the date, but I can state that once the
16 conversation was transcribed, it would be forwarded to the typist."
17 And then it says:
18 "In these reports, they put the date of the intercepted
20 Did you read this?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you explain, it was not you who record the date, but the
23 typist, was that the case?
24 A. Sometimes we forgot to record the date so the typist would
25 correct that and record the date.
1 Q. Thank you. Tell us about the four intercepted conversations that
2 the Prosecution showed you. Did you record the dates or not?
3 A. As far as I know, yes, I recorded the dates.
4 Q. We will look at the intercepts and we will come to that, but I
5 saw that there was no date either in the handwritten transcript or in the
6 typed transcript.
7 A. Sometimes we forgot, but we usually did note the date. Sometimes
8 people forgot to do that.
9 Q. For example, let's look at P721A. Thank you. Do you see the
10 transcript on the screen, on the left-hand side?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you note the date here?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where?
15 A. At the beginning of the telegram, frequency 259.679 [as
16 interpreted], time 1654. Participants Panorama, Mico, and Toso.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you see a date here or do you only see the time?
18 A. I don't see a date.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 A. I see the time but the date is missing. But the commander must
21 have noted the date when he forwarded the telegram.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you also enclose the tape with the transcript
23 when you forwarded the transcript to the typist?
24 A. After the shift was over the commander took the tapes. He was
25 the one who changed the tapes. And as for the transcript that I
1 recorded, I personally handed it to him and he forwarded it.
2 Q. Since this notebook is some kind of evidence in this trial, how
3 can we establish the date and the credibility of the date based on what
4 you recorded?
5 A. Well, most probably there is a date. There must be a date.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the court please produce the
8 second -- the other document that was recorded on the other facility
9 where the -- one of the interlocutors asks, Did Toso arrive?" And the
10 transcript that you recorded, can they be displayed simultaneously, the
11 two transcripts. May we have on e-court the two documents that the
12 Prosecutor showed a moment ago to the witness, where it says that he
13 recorded one at the northern site and the other at the southern site.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Chittenden.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 7231A and 724A. 723A and 724A, but
16 I'm not quite sure of the numbers.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Chittenden.
18 MS. CHITTENDEN: I'd just like to clarify for the record. On
19 line -- or page 21, line 12, just I'm not sure -- just to make this
20 clear, the accused stated: "... the Prosecutor showed a moment ago to
21 the witness, where it says that he recorded one at the northern site and
22 the other at the southern site." Just to make sure that's not he
23 recorded both. That's not what the witness's evidence was.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Chittenden. I
1 apologise if I put it that way. One was recorded in the southern site by
2 the witness and the other on the northern site by his colleague, and you
3 asked them whether they were identical and recorded at the same time so
4 I'd like to show these two parallelly now together. One beside the
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are these the right documents now on the screen
7 that you are asking for?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, we
9 have the right documents on the screen. They are Prosecution documents
10 which I'm using in this instance, and I'd like to ask the witness to tell
11 us whether there's a date there.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment, I would only like to clarify if
13 these are really the document you were asking for. Ms. Chittenden.
14 MS. CHITTENDEN: Just a couple of things. First thing, I don't
15 believe they are the documents that Mr. Tolimir is asking for. It should
16 be P723A and C. So that second document I don't believe is correct, the
17 1132. That doesn't match.
18 Secondly, just to clarify for the record, the accused stated that
19 I asked if the -- line 22, line 2, asked if I asked if they were
20 identical and recorded at the same time. That was not my question. I
21 asked if the conversations were the same, if those recorded the same
22 conversations, not if they were identical and at the same time. So I
23 would just like to clarify that for the record. Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we have now on the right side of the
25 screen the different document than before. I see on the left side on the
1 top the number 255950 and the same number occurs on the right side in the
2 middle of the page. Are these now the two documents you were asking for?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Those
4 are precisely the two documents that I asked to have called up and I want
5 to ask the witness the following.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did you record these two documents, Witness, that we can see on
8 our screen?
9 A. No, not both of them, just the first one. I recorded the first
10 one and that is written in my hand; the other one was written by my
11 colleague at the northern site and it's in his handwriting.
12 Q. Could you tell us whether there's a date on the document that you
14 A. Let me explain this to you.
15 Q. Just tell me whether there is a date or not and then explain.
16 A. No, there's not a date, but the date was probably written when it
17 was sent out. And I think I know when this document was sent out. I
18 think I know the date.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, look at line 15, X is asking, "Has Toso arrived?
20 Is Toso there?" Do you see that? Line 16, "Has Toso arrived?"
21 A. Yes, I see that.
22 Q. Can you tell us who the X is in this transcript? Who is the X
23 and who is the M?
24 A. I don't know who the X is. It's an unknown participant.
25 Q. But you wrote it?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Well, you say D, you have a D and X and an M.
3 A. Well, probably somebody also -- there was a third person who
4 connected them.
5 Q. Now, who is asking -- who is the X asking, "Has Toso arrived?"
6 A. I don't know. If I knew, I would have written the name and not
7 an X.
8 Q. So is this some third participant?
9 A. Yes, a third participant.
10 Q. Thank you. So it's not the two people conducting the
12 A. No, it's probably someone at the exchange, the switchboard that
13 connected the two.
14 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, look at the right-hand side of the
15 screen and there it says -- well, it's the same conversation. And look
16 at line 11 there.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Z is asking now, "Has Toso arrived?" So there are two
19 participants, Delic and Miletic. Miletic is Z, Delic is D, and then
20 Miletic asks whether I have arrived. So is there a difference in those
21 two documents?
22 A. Yes, there is. Probably the reception was weaker on my receiver,
23 weaker than my colleagues.
24 Q. And on the right-hand side, are there three participants or two
25 participants in the conversation?
1 A. He has two participants in the conversation.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise to the
3 interpreters for speeding up.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] But can you tell us whether this
5 conversation has a date, when it was recorded? Thank you.
6 A. As far as I can see, there's no date but the time is the same.
7 59 and I have it at 58. So probably our watches weren't working.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment, please. You were right, Mr. Tolimir,
9 to give an advice to the witness to pause between question and answer,
10 but you don't do that at the moment as well. But you are very fast, you
11 are speaking nearly at the same time but it's very difficult for the
12 interpreters. Please pause before the question and answer. And now
13 carry on, please.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I apologise once again to the witness for speeding up our
17 communication. Thank you. Can you tell us, to avoid me reading the
18 statement because you said you didn't work with tapes, do you remember
19 saying that in your statement?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Can you tell us what that means and how come you didn't work with
22 tapes? What does that mean when you say that?
23 A. Well, it was my job to record the conversations and then to
24 transcribe the conversations on to a piece of paper or a notebook, the
25 intercepted conversation, I mean. And behind me, the commander would be
1 sitting and he had a computer, so I would hand it over to him and then he
2 would forward it on.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you just explain this to us: Did you record the
4 conversations on a tape or on something else?
5 A. On a tape. The UHER, UHER tape.
6 Q. So you had -- you dealt with tapes until they were handed on?
7 A. Yes, I recorded the tapes, but I didn't have anything to do with
8 the devices and so the instruments themselves. The commander would do
10 Q. Thank you. My next question is the following: Do you remember
11 any activities that I performed in the conversation that you recorded and
12 were you able to note that during the proofing days?
13 A. Well, the X, unknown participant, and the colleague who put the Z
14 down and recorded it probably had better reception so he could hear more
15 clearly. But according to my document, in my document, I don't know who
16 the X is, I didn't know who X was.
17 Q. Thank you. Now looking at the second document, is it logical
18 that Miletic should ask after me if he is called up by Devic and the only
19 information he wants to obtain is whether Toso has arrived? Is it
20 logical for Miletic to ask Devic where Toso is, whereas Devic is calling
21 up from the field?
22 A. I really can't answer that. I didn't write that second
24 Q. Thank you. So in those two documents, is there any word that I
25 uttered, that I spoke, or anything I did?
1 A. Not in my document, but in this other one, I don't know, I can't
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, may I interrupt you just for a
5 clarification related to the document on the right side of the screen.
6 Some minutes ago you identified Z as the speaker Miletic. I would like
7 to ask the witness if that is really Z Miletic. If you look at the left
8 line of this document, you see three different letters, Z, D, and M. Are
9 there three speakers? Perhaps you can clarify that with the witness.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President. I
11 asked the witness about the left-hand document and he said there were
12 three participants in that conversation, whereas some X is asking whether
13 Toso has arrived, not Devic and Miletic. Whereas on the right-hand side,
14 you have under the frequency and the time 1359, it says Colonel Devic and
15 Miletic and then colon Z. And Delic [as interpreted] says, Colonel Delic
16 [as interpreted]. And then we come to the Z where Miletic asks have I
17 arrived, so he is asking his collocutor who is in the field. So I don't
18 know who is asking after me, since I'm not speaking at all. And this
19 document does not testify to any of my activities, any activity or speech
20 on my part, whereas that's what the Prosecutor announced during his
21 examination of this witness. So I apologise to the witness for having to
22 ask him that. He just helped us to clarify the dilemma that occurs here
23 in the courtroom.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I understand that very well, but I
25 was referring to a different problem. On the left column, you see Z, D,
1 Z, D, Z, D, Z, M, Z, M, Z, M, Z, M. I formed the impression that there
2 are three speakers recorded in this transcript, that could be that Z is
3 not Miletic but a third person.
4 Witness, could you say something about that? Have you any
5 knowledge? I know this is not your transcript.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the left is the witness's
7 transcript, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm only referring to the right document and I
9 would like to know if the witness can say anything about that.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I can say is that the document
11 was written -- well, the words are the same, but this Z, D, the
12 participants, my colleague probably recorded it better because he had
13 better reception. He could hear the conversation better. That's all I
14 can say about the document. I can't say any more than that.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please carry on,
16 Mr. Tolimir.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for
18 helping us clarify this matter. Ms. Chittenden wanted to say something,
19 she was on her feet, I believe.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Chittenden.
21 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. I was just going to
22 say, Your Honours, I will clarify this in re-examination, if you like. I
23 can go through with the witness in more detail.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Go on, please.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Now, Witness, would you recognise my voice if you heard it on a
3 tape in the conversations shown here provided for your testimony in the
4 trial against me?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Is there any trace in your unit's archive of my voice? Do you
7 know about that? Is there a recording of my voice?
8 A. I don't know, I'm not aware of that.
9 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I apologise once again to the
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Now, Witness, I have another question. Did you ask for
14 protective measures from the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina or from
15 this Tribunal? Can you answer that question?
16 A. I can't answer that question, I'm sorry.
17 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have your statement back up
19 on the screen, please, which is P71B [as interpreted].
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: P719.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May we turn to page 2,
22 paragraph 3, please. We are looking at the page I'm interested in and
23 paragraph 3 there that I'd like to focus on.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. The third line from the bottom reads as follows:
1 "If there was an interesting conversation, we would switch on the
2 UHER and tape -- start recording this conversation on the tape. Once the
3 conversation was recorded on to the tape, we would listen to it again and
4 write it down on a sheet of paper, or sometimes into notebooks as well,
5 but most of the time on to sheets of paper."
6 Thank you. Can you see that part?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So there's no mention there of any notebooks. Did you have
10 A. There were notebooks and when I say "paper," I mean notebooks.
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. In the notebook, did you
12 write it down directly, because you say it's all paper as far as you are
13 concerned, or did you have a sheet of paper and then write it down in a
15 A. No, we would write it directly into notebooks, on the paper of
16 the notebook.
17 Q. So did you cross out any possible mistakes or did you delete them
18 in some other way?
19 A. I didn't do that. I didn't cross them out. What was written
20 down was most probably forwarded further.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have any more questions for
23 this witness.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, thank you very much for your sincere answers. Thank you
1 for coming here to talk to me. I wish you a safe journey back home. God
2 bless you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, my
4 cross-examination of this witness is now over, Mr. President. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
6 Ms. Chittenden, your re-examination.
7 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Mr. President. Just a first issue,
8 during my direct examination, I inadvertently omitted to move into
9 evidence 721A and B, and 722A and B. They were on my exhibit list and
10 they are two of the handwritten and typed intercepts that the witness
11 identified as his in the booklet. So I apologise, I forgot to request
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received
14 Re-examination by Ms. Chittenden:
15 Q. I'd just like to now, Witness, ask you about two things using the
16 notebooks and then my questions will be finished. So first off, I would
17 like to ask about 721A.
18 MS. CHITTENDEN: If we could have that in e-court, please. I
19 apologise, I'd like to show the witness the original notebook and I
20 believe the original notebook in its entirety is P440. So if we could
21 have P440 in e-court, that would be ...
22 Thank you. So this is the original notebook and we'll just --
23 thank you. And it's page 29 in e-court, if we can ...
24 And that is the same as our Exhibit P721A, that the witness has
25 identified as his, but I'd like to have the whole notebook, please.
1 Thank you, that's correct.
2 Q. Witness, I'm going to pass you the original notebook, again.
3 MS. CHITTENDEN: If I might have the assistance of the
4 Court Usher.
5 Q. And it's also on the screen in front of you, so you can have a
6 look at either the screen or the notebook.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And which tape is it in the binder?
8 MS. CHITTENDEN: Yes, that's correct. It's 721, so it should be
9 behind the first tab in the binder, please.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: Just the handwritten version.
12 Q. So, Witness, on the left you can see that's the intercept at
13 1654 hours that Mr. Tolimir was asking you about and that you identified
14 as your handwriting; is that correct? Sorry, Witness, that's one of your
15 intercepts that you've identified as your handwriting? On the left page
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, Mr. Tolimir, during his
19 cross-examination, asked you to read the top of the intercept and you
20 read that and found there was no date. That's correct, isn't it? Can
21 you just have another look at look at 259.675, which is the frequency.
22 Can you see that there? And then 1654 hours is the time. Then we can
23 see the participants, Panorama, Mico, and Toso. Is that correct, can you
24 see that there?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. Now, Witness, what I'd like you to do is just turn back a couple
2 of pages in the notebook?
3 MS. CHITTENDEN: And if we can also do the same in e-court.
4 Q. And I'd like you to, Witness, look very carefully and see if you
5 can see a date.
6 MS. CHITTENDEN: So it should be page 25 in e-court, if we can
7 just go to that, please.
8 Q. Witness, if you can just look very carefully and see if you can
9 see a date on the top of any of those pages, or you can look at the
10 screen, if you like. On the top of that, can you see any date on there?
11 A. Yes, I can see the date 11 July 19, the rest is not legible. Not
13 Q. Can you have another look, sorry, can you read out what you can
14 see? What is the first number? I apologise.
15 A. 17 July.
16 Q. Thank you. And -- okay. If we can -- can you find that in the
17 original notebook, or if it's easier, I can show you the original?
18 MS. CHITTENDEN: Sorry, may I turn to that page for him in the
19 original. It doesn't matter, it's on the screen, so that's okay.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: He should try to find it in the original
21 notebook. That would be helpful.
22 MS. CHITTENDEN: Sure.
23 Q. Witness, have a careful look, take your time and just see if you
24 can find that page there in the notebook. I think I may have asked you
25 to turn back a bit too far, so we should turn -- turn forward, I
1 apologise. That's correct. Yeah, just look if you can see that page
2 that's on the screen.
3 A. Just a moment, bear with me, please.
4 Q. Just turn back a couple of pages from there.
5 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, perhaps it would be helpful if I
6 can direct him just back to the original intercept then he can do it from
7 there because it's, I think, a 60-page book and it might take a bit of
8 time. I apologise.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No problem. No problem with that.
10 MS. CHITTENDEN: If I may just ask the Court Usher.
11 Q. Witness, I'll just help you to find it, I know it's a bit
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, could you give the original notebook --
14 did you find it? If not, you could give it back to Ms. Chittenden.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I can't find that.
16 MS. CHITTENDEN: Okay. Your Honours, I'm turning him to his
17 intercept again.
18 Q. And, Witness, without turning the page, just have a look, that's
19 the intercept that we started on, on the left-hand side there, and that's
20 the intercept at 1654 hours. What I'd like you to do -- as we've just
21 seen there's no date on that one, so I'd like you to turn to the page
22 with the date, which will be back in the book, and find the page that
23 matches what's on your screen if that's okay. Just a couple of pages
24 back. Back, sorry, back rather than forwards. Turn one more page back
25 and see if you can find a date.
1 A. Yes, here it is.
2 Q. Can you read for the Court what the date is? Does that original
3 match the copy on the screen?
4 A. 17 July 1995.
5 Q. Thank you. Sorry about that. Now, what I'd like you to do is
6 just to confirm that that is the date of our -- I would like you to turn
7 and just have a look and see if you can see any other dates on that page.
8 A. Just a moment, please. Now you have jogged my memory. When we
9 started our shifts in the morning, whoever was on the first shift
10 recorded the date at the beginning of the shift in the notebook, so the
11 rest of us who worked later shifts did not have to do that. We didn't
12 have to record the date. For example, the 17th of July, 1995, here, we
13 worked that day but we did not have to record the date. It was only on
14 the following day that the first person in the shift recorded the date,
15 the 18th of July, at the beginning of the morning shift.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness. Are there any other dates between where you
17 can see the 17 July and where you can see your intercept?
18 A. Just a moment, please. Bear with me.
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: If we just may scroll on e-court just slowly
20 between 25 and 29 so we can also see what the witness should be looking
22 Q. Witness, let's look at it on the screen. It might be easier.
23 A. It is, yes.
24 Q. Let's have a look at the screen. You can --
25 MS. CHITTENDEN: Sorry, can we just go back to page 25 for a
2 Q. Witness, look on the screen now, that's the page we're looking at
3 there, 17 July, can you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. CHITTENDEN: Now, what I would like to do is scroll slowly to
6 the next page, please.
7 Q. And, Witness, I'd like to see, is there any other date on this
8 page, on the screen? On the screen, please. It might be easier. Is
9 there any date on that page there? Have a careful look.
10 A. I don't see any dates.
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: Let's go to the next page, please.
12 Q. Let's have a look at the next page on the screen, please. Can
13 you see any date on there, Witness?
14 A. No.
15 MS. CHITTENDEN: Let's have a look at the next page on the
16 screen, please.
17 Q. Witness, can you see any date on that page?
18 A. No.
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: Let's go to the last page or the next page,
21 Q. Witness, can you see any date on this page?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And is this the intercept I was asking you about at 1654? Is
24 that your intercept there? Can you recognise your handwriting?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you, Witness. So there is no date from -- based on what
2 you've looked at on the screen, there is no date from when you saw the
3 17 July to your intercept; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you, Witness, if you can just close the notebook now.
6 We're finished with that. Thank you. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the original notebook should be given to
8 Mr. Gajic and Mr. Tolimir as well so that they have the opportunity to
9 look at it.
10 MS. CHITTENDEN: May I just ask.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Carry on.
12 MS. CHITTENDEN:
13 Q. Witness, one more thing on the screen. I apologise, you put your
14 glasses away already, but one more thing on the screen.
15 MS. CHITTENDEN: If we can turn to page 35 on e-court in this
16 document. Thank you.
17 Q. Witness, can you have a careful look at this and see if you can
18 read a date on this page, please.
19 A. No date. I can't see any dates.
20 Q. Can you just look, perhaps it's difficult to see the screen at
21 the moment, but look about halfway down the page, do you see something,
22 just a bit further down than half, towards the bottom of the page.
23 A. Yes. There is a date. 18 July 1995.
24 Q. So, Witness, this is part of the -- as you can see, it's part of
25 the screen it's part of the notebook, what does that mean, that date, do
1 you know?
2 A. That's the beginning. The beginning of the first shift. When
3 the first shift started, that person recorded the date which means that
4 the rest of us who came later and did subsequent shifts did not have to
5 record the date in front of each intercepted conversations.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness.
7 MS. CHITTENDEN: I'm finished with that in e-court. I just have
8 a few more questions, Your Honour. I am aware the break is soon but I
9 think I can finish before that. May we have, and this shouldn't be
10 broadcast, please, P721B in e-court. And that can just be on the entire
11 screen, we don't need the other document anymore. Thank you.
12 Q. Okay. Witness, you'll see a document now coming up in front of
13 you. Can you go to the top left of the document there and just read if
14 you can see a date on the bottom line there?
15 A. 17 July 1995.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness. And if you can just now look about halfway
17 down the page, of that same page, we can see where it starts, "Azimuth
18 135." And on the English, I apologise, it's a partial translation, so it
19 will just appear straight under frequency 259.675. Can you see that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the time 1654 --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the participants Panorama, Mico, Toso? Is this the same
25 conversation we were just looking at in the notebook at 1654?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So would you conclude from this typed version that this is the
3 typed version, I apologise, of your intercept?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And is this intercept report consistent with your testimony that
6 the commander put the date on the top, as you can see on the left?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. CHITTENDEN: I've finished with that exhibit. Thank you,
10 Witness. Now, I'd just like to ask if we could have 723A and 723C in
11 e-court. They are both B/C/S handwritten versions. If we could have
12 them side by side, please.
13 Q. Witness, I'd just like to ask you about the intercepts you were
14 discussing in cross-examination with Mr. Tolimir. And that's my final
15 questions and then you'll be finished.
16 MS. CHITTENDEN: I apologise, I think I've -- no, no, that's
17 correct. I thought I had misspoken. Thank you. On the right-hand side
18 if we could focus in on the 1359 intercept on the bottom half of the
19 page, that would be great. Great, thank you.
20 Q. Witness, now, we were looking at this before in
21 cross-examination, you might remember. These are the two intercepts, the
22 left-hand side that you identified as yours, and the right-hand side that
23 you identified as your colleague from the northern site; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd just like to clarify one thing for everyone.
1 If you can go to the top of your intercept there, and just read out the
2 participants for me.
3 A. X, that's an unidentified speaker, Colonel Deic, X is Miletic
4 here, yes, pass him on, just a moment. Okay, okay, hello --
5 Q. Witness, I apologise to interrupt you. Let's just read, just if
6 you can read for me at the very top, the participants there. That's all
7 I need you to read, just read that line out, please.
8 A. Colonel Deic and Miletic.
9 Q. Thank you. And what appears before Colonel Deic on that top
11 A. Frequency 255.950, time -- the time of conversation.
12 Q. That's correct. And after the time?
13 A. Participants X, unknown participant; Colonel Deic and Miletic.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Okay. Let's go to the right-hand side
15 document and I know this one is not yours. All I would like to you to do
16 is read out for us what is under 1359, so that line there of
18 A. PUK Devic, Miletic, and Z.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness. Do you -- and actually, I'd like you to also
20 just look down this side, I'm going to just read that out just for time
21 purposes. Down the side you can see the participants speaking and you
22 can see the designation with the letters, so we've got Z saying
23 something, then D. Can you see that? Z, D, I'm lost now, Z, M, Z, M, Z,
24 M, Z, M. Can you see that just on the left-hand side?
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not legible. It should be moved a little
1 bit to the --
2 MS. CHITTENDEN: Sorry. On the right-hand side document but on
3 the left-hand side of the left column. I apologise. And if we can also
4 move so we can see on the left-hand side, if we can see that column too,
5 that would be helpful. I don't know if it's going to come up on the
6 screen. That's okay. That doesn't matter.
7 Q. On the right-hand side, Witness, you can see Z, D, and M
8 speaking. Do you think that it's possible that when you wrote X in your
9 intercept, that your colleague on the northern site represented that with
10 a Z?
11 A. It is possible. I said that maybe his connection was better,
12 mine was worse, so I could not notice -- could not hear those things, and
13 he did, according to the handwritten document here.
14 Q. Thanks, Witness. One final question. I'd like to see -- just
15 going back to your intercept, we can see participants X, Deic and
16 Miletic. Going to your colleagues, we can see participants, Z, Devic and
17 Miletic. Are there three participants in each of these conversations?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you. I have no further questions. Thank
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at the beginning of
23 the conversation whoever record the conversation transcribed it from the
24 tape -- can we have it back on the screen, the right-hand side screen?
25 Can we have it back, the conversation that was on the right side of the
1 screen? That the Prosecutor just --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Both documents back on the screen. They just
3 disappeared. There they are.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. You can see clearly in
5 the second conversation, the right-hand side, not the first conversation
6 but the second conversation, it says 255.950, 1354, Colonel Devic,
7 Miletic, Z. Is Miletic designated by Z or is it somebody else who is
8 designated by Z, this is what needs to be clarified with the witness.
9 There are no three participants in this conversations -- the
10 conversation. Who is it who asks whether Toso has arrived, is it Z or
11 somebody else?
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Chittenden are you in the position to
13 continue with your re-examination and to clarify this problem?
14 MS. CHITTENDEN: Yes, I can have one more try at it. If we can
15 just go back to -- we have that on e-court.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Both documents on the screen.
17 MS. CHITTENDEN:
18 Q. Witness, one last time what I'd like you to look at is -- let's
19 go back to your intercept quickly on the left-hand side. We can see
20 participants X, Colonel Deic, and Miletic; is that correct? On the
21 left-hand side, your intercept?
22 A. Correct. That's correct, yes.
23 Q. And in that conversation on the left column, we can see speaker
24 X, D, X, D, X, D, X, D, X, M, X, M, X, M, et cetera; is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. So in your conversation there are speakers X, D, and M; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let's go to the other intercept that's not yours. We can see
5 participants, Devic, Miletic, and Z; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, three participants again.
7 Q. Let's look in the column the same as we did on ours, we can see
8 Z, D, Z, D, Z, D, Z, M, Z, M, Z, M --
10 Q. So how many participants have we got in this conversation?
11 A. Yes. Three, three. Three participants.
12 Q. Thank you. And is -- what does the M mean in that conversation?
13 Who is that referring to?
14 A. Mr. Miletic most probably.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. And who is the Z?
16 A. I don't know. I don't know it in my telegram and I don't know it
17 in this telegram. I don't know who Z is. And in my telegram it's an
18 unknown participant. I don't know.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness. So just to -- one last time, in your
20 intercept we have X, that's corresponding with Z, is that correct, in the
21 other intercept? Possibly he could have written -- sorry. Let me just
22 withdraw that question.
23 A. I don't know. I can't answer your question because I'm not sure.
24 I can't answer if I'm not sure. I don't know about the second document.
25 I'm sure about my document and I can tell you that I don't know at all
1 who X is in my conversation. I can't say.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. But just to finish off, you just stated
3 before that in your conversation there's three participants, in the other
4 conversation there's three participants, X and -- so you are standing by
6 A. Yes, yes, I am standing by that.
7 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Witness. Does that clarify for
8 Your Honours?
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think that is clear now and you have finished
10 your re-examination for the second time.
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: That's correct. Thank you, Your Honours. Thank
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, the -- after the Defence, the
14 three Judges had the opportunity to have a look at the original notebook,
15 P440, and it should be given back to the Prosecution.
16 Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this concludes your
17 examination. The Chamber would like to thank you for your attendance
18 here again and for your assistance you were able to give, and now you are
19 free to return to your normal activities. Thank you very much again, but
20 we must have our first break now. Please wait a moment. After we have
21 left, you are able to leave the courtroom.
22 We adjourn and I'm not sure if we will have another witness
23 available today? It seems that this is not the case. Mr. Vanderpuye.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,
25 Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
1 Mr. President, pending the Trial Chamber's decision with respect
2 to the witness that you discussed yesterday, we don't have another
3 witness ready to go today. That's essentially the reality.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. In that case, we don't have
5 our first break now, but we adjourn until Monday in the afternoon, 2.15,
6 in this courtroom, if I'm not mistaken. We adjourn.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.40 a.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of August,
10 2010, at 2.15 p.m.