Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4794

 1                           Thursday, 2 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, you may continue your cross-examination.

 8                           WITNESS:  HAMDIJA TORLAK [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Of course, I have to remind the witness to tell

12     the truth, and the affirmation still applies.

13             Mr. Tolimir.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May Lord bless this house.  I wish

15     we all have a fruitful, successful work and that all days, including this

16     one, during this trial be concluded according to God's wishes and not

17     necessarily mine.

18             A question for the witness.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Yesterday, just before the end, we provided you

21     with a list.  I don't know whether you returned it to the Registrar.

22        A.   I did.

23        Q.   You said that most of the people on the list were people from

24     Zepa?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4795

 1        Q.   Were those the people who refused to disarm, in keeping with the

 2     decision of the War Presidency of the 27th?

 3        A.   Yes.  Those were the people who were considered men of military

 4     age.

 5        Q.   Save for the one for whom you said was killed, are the rest of

 6     them alive, have they survived the events in Srebrenica and Zepa?

 7        A.   Yes, they have.  From what I know, from Serbia they were taken to

 8     third countries.  Some returned to Bosnia eventually, whereas others

 9     stayed in their new countries.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know the percentage of those who left for

11     third countries, as opposed to those who returned, be it immediately or

12     after the war?

13        A.   I don't know the exact number.  According to what I was able to

14     hear, in late 1995 they were offered a number of countries, and the

15     initial people left.  I believe they went in several groups, not all at

16     once.  Of course, I must underline that this is what I heard only.  Out

17     of some 800 --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were some 800 people in

20     Serbia, but I don't know what percentage of them returned to Bosnia

21     eventually.  I don't want to speculate.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  We saw the agreement, containing an item which states

24     that freedom of movement will be guaranteed, and it was also stated that

25     once the war was over, people would be allowed to go where they wished.

Page 4796

 1     We can see D51, if necessary.  If you recall, General Mladic also

 2     addressed that issue at a meeting.  You said that the Dayton Accords

 3     dealt with that issue and the people were free to return according to

 4     their wishes.  Some people actually did return?

 5        A.   You mean people to Zepa?

 6        Q.   Precisely.  Then, during examination-in-chief, it was suggested

 7     that the Dayton Accords followed the events in Zepa quite late during the

 8     decade.  What is your opinion on that?

 9        A.   While I was still in the prison, the Dayton Accords were already

10     signed.  I think they were verified and ratified, in terms of

11     implementation, by way of, I think, the Paris Treaty.  I think the whole

12     thing was finished by December 1995.

13        Q.   So it was in the same year when the agreement D51 was signed?

14        A.   Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see D51 now, but we

16     should be careful not to broadcast the page with the signatures.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Therefore, that item concerning freedom of movement was

19     reaffirmed through the Dayton Accords because it was a part of the

20     overall peace process in Bosnia; is that correct?

21        A.   Well, it was defined by the Dayton Accords.  Perhaps we can say

22     that these two things corresponded.

23        Q.   Who signed the Dayton Accords, the participants of the war in

24     Bosnia or all three sides as well as international community

25     representatives?  What can you tell us?

Page 4797

 1             Apologies.  Could we please remove the names from the screen.

 2     Perhaps scroll down.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Registrar made sure this document would not

 4     be broadcast, because at the top and at the end, the name is to be seen.

 5     So that don't worry, it will not be broadcast.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I wasn't

 7     aware of that.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Please go ahead.

10        A.   As far as I know, the Dayton Accords were signed by the

11     participants, so to say, of the war.  It was done under the auspices of

12     the standing members of the Security Committee, I believe, although I'm

13     not certain of that.  And guarantees were also offered by Serbia and

14     Croatia.

15        Q.   Do you know whether it also included an RS delegation?

16        A.   I know they participated in the work surrounding the accords, but

17     I don't know whether they were the signatories as well.  In any case, I

18     know the delegation was in Dayton.

19        Q.   Not everyone signed, just those representing the actual

20     countries.  In any case, this is the umbrella agreement covering all of

21     the other agreements that were eventually reached during the war; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   As far as I know, the Dayton Accords have annexes regulating all

24     matters at hand.  In any case, all segments were covered, in terms of

25     securing normal life and work, freedom of movement, a possibility of

Page 4798

 1     return, the organisation of state.  All of those things were covered by

 2     the Dayton Accords.

 3        Q.   In item 7, it says:

 4             "In accordance with the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 and

 5     the Additional Protocols of 1977, the civilian population of Zepa shall

 6     be given the freedom to choose their place of residence while hostilities

 7     continue."

 8             Did the hostilities cease immediately afterwards, in September,

 9     when the Dayton talks began?

10        A.   I was still in jail at that time.  But as far as I know, all war

11     activities were halted in the second half of September, I believe.  I

12     was, of course, away from it all, but I think it was in September 1995.

13        Q.   Was this item of the agreement also later on included in the

14     Dayton Accords and put into practice so as to affect the populations on

15     all three war sides?

16        A.   This item was implemented through the Dayton Accords.  I think,

17     however, that the return to Zepa began only as late as 2000.  It all came

18     about as a result of Dayton.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday, towards the end, you spoke about

20     Mr. Imamovic, Mr. Hajric, and the way they were taken from the prison

21     where they were with you.  Were they registered by the ICRC, like you

22     were?  Were they given an opportunity to get in touch with their

23     families?

24        A.   Yes, they were registered the same day, and they also sent their

25     messages to their families.  Their families have them.

Page 4799

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who Mustafa Hodzic is?  Was he imprisoned

 2     with you and did he participate in any military activities in Zepa?  Was

 3     he in jail with you?

 4        A.   Mustafa Hodzic.  Well, the last name denotes a person from that

 5     area.  But there were some 40 people there, and I cannot recall this name

 6     specifically.  I don't remember him being with me in the prison.  It

 7     could be one of the group, though, because I didn't know each and every

 8     person.  I do not exclude that possibility.  But he was never in the same

 9     cell with me.

10        Q.   Out of the 40 who were taken off the last bus, were they

11     registered by the ICRC, were they all registered?

12        A.   Yes, they were all registered.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Microphone not activated]

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters,

16     the witness, and the Presiding Judge, as well as the OTP.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   My question is this:  All those 40 people who were in Rogatica

19     with you, were they registered by the ICRC and were they all later on

20     exchanged, except for the two men whom you said were killed later on?

21     And perhaps you can tell us when.

22        A.   All 40, although I don't know whether it was a few less or more,

23     with the exception of one person whose last name, I believe, was Cocalic,

24     were registered.  He was taken away from the jail, and his mortal remains

25     were never found.  Everyone else was registered by the ICRC and exchanged

Page 4800

 1     on the same day in January 1996 at Sarajevo Airport.  Actually, first we

 2     were at Kula and then taken down to the center of Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   Do you know who Mehan Oric is, son of Nezir?  Was he from Zepa,

 4     and do you know anything about him?  Was he with you in the jail in

 5     Rogatica?

 6        A.   I don't know.  Oric is a Srebrenica family, the Orics, so he did

 7     not hail from Zepa.  In any case, I don't recall him.  Throughout my stay

 8     in the jail in Rogatica, I was in a separate room.  For a while, I worked

 9     up at Borike, where there was a larger group of detainees, and this is

10     when I slept with those people in the same room.  However, all of the

11     rest of the time at Rogatica, I was separated from the rest, and I saw

12     other detainees at meal times.

13        Q.   Do you know anything about Hamdija Dedic, son of Belaga [phoen]?

14     Is he from Zepa?  Do you have any information about him, and was he

15     detained with you?  Do you know whether he was killed during military

16     activities in Zepa or subsequently as a detainee?

17        A.   As far as I know, Hamdija Dedic is the brother of a person who

18     used to be a teacher in the elementary school in Zepa.  I never saw him.

19     But according to the statements of some people who were detained in

20     Rogatica at the same time, he was captured.  I think he was trying to

21     reach Gorazde or Rudo, after which he was brought to the jail.  He spent

22     a few days at Rogatica.

23             May I continue?

24             And they say that he was taken away.  It turned out he was

25     killed, and I believe his mortal remains were recovered only a few years

Page 4801

 1     ago.  He was subsequently buried in Zepa or Sarajevo.

 2        Q.   When was he in prison?  Was that during the events in Zepa or

 3     when you were there, and was he registered by the ICRC?

 4        A.   I'm telling you what I heard from other people.  He arrived after

 5     the fall of Zepa, so in early August.  He started from Rudo or Visegrad,

 6     in Eastern Bosnia, and ended up in Rogatica.  That was in early August.

 7     He was not registered by the ICRC.  He only spent a few days with us, and

 8     then he was taken away.  As it turned out, he was subsequently killed,

 9     and I think his body was later on found in Vragolovi, in the general area

10     of that location.  In any case, I know he was later on buried, which

11     happened a few years ago.

12        Q.   Thank you.  What do you know about Avdo Palic, from the point of

13     his capture to his death, be it from what you heard from others or based

14     on your own information?

15        A.   In my previous testimony, I said that the last time I saw

16     Avdo Palic was on the morning of the 26th of July, 1995.  I never saw him

17     afterwards.  There were things I heard, once I was released.  These were

18     stories or rumours, and I don't know if it's relevant to the Court.

19     Allegedly, he was about to engage in some talks with the Serb side in

20     the -- and that was on the 27th of July, together with one person

21     escorting him.  The Serb soldiers took him, and they told the escort to

22     return.  The person is still alive today.

23             Following that, there was much discussion about the death of

24     Avdo Palic among the Bosnian public.  The latest version, if I may say,

25     is the one that is generally considered to be true.  It states that after

Page 4802

 1     being captured, he was held in the territory of the Rogatica municipality

 2     for a while, perhaps at Borike, and that he was later transferred to

 3     Batkovica, which was a camp close to Bijeljina in Northern Bosnia.

 4     Apparently in early September, he was returned to Rogatica or

 5     Han Pijesak, and it is presumed that he was killed at that time.  This is

 6     how it was reported by journalists, and it is generally considered to be

 7     the truth, at least as far as the people in Sarajevo are concerned.

 8        Q.   So you saw him for the last time on the 26th of July, when we

 9     returned from having escorted the first convoy, which left on the 25th.

10     They travelled the whole night, crossing the lines.  The same was

11     repeated on the 27th, up until the last bus you mentioned.  You know, at

12     least according to the stories, that he was still alive in September?

13        A.   Yes.  There were different theories about his fate, and that

14     story developed for 10 years.  What I'm telling you here is also not

15     confirmed, but that figures as the latest and final version on the

16     Bosnian side, at least.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber whether he was

18     killed during combat operations, was he taken prisoner, or was he killed

19     in the manner that you described just a moment ago in September?

20        A.   Well, I can only repeat what I've already said.  He certainly did

21     not take part in any combat operations, and what I told you here were

22     stories that journalists told and also what was related by his escort.

23     Everything else is just conjecture.  And, again, as I said, the latest

24     valid truth -- version of the truth is that he was killed in early

25     September 1995.

Page 4803

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether he was in the free territory of

 2     Republika Srpska on the 25th -- the night of the 25th, on the 26th, and

 3     the 26th and the 27th, when he accompanied the convoy, and that he even

 4     went to the separation line, to the positions held by the federation?

 5        A.   Well, this is what I know:  I know that he was with you on the

 6     25th, in the evening, and that he boarded a VRS vehicle, together with

 7     you, and you left.  That is the last time I saw him, and it was already

 8     getting dark.  He was supposed to accompany his family, and according to

 9     these stories, he did go to Kladanj.  I don't know if he ever went to the

10     lines held by the Federation Army.  When he returned on the 26th, he told

11     me that had briefly met with General Mladic at Boksanica on his way back

12     and that Mladic had told him that I was supposed to go up there, as

13     agreed earlier with Mladic, or, rather, as Mladic's earlier demand was,

14     in order to guarantee for your security in Zepa, because as I've already

15     said, the Army of Republika Srpska had not entered Zepa yet at that point

16     in time.  And that was, in fact, the last time that I saw Palic.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now tell the Trial Chamber whether anyone

18     was killed after being captured in the course of combat operations and

19     during the transfer of the population by members of the VRS or those

20     people who had organised the transfer of people from Zepa to Kladanj?

21        A.   Well, I've already answered this question on several occasions.

22     I don't know exactly how many fighters or soldiers were killed in combat,

23     itself.  During the evacuation, no one was taken off the convoy except

24     those 40 people, elderly men and wounded, who were taken off the last

25     convoy.  As I said, all of them, except one person, were later on

Page 4804

 1     exchanged in early 1996.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have any knowledge about anyone being taken

 3     off buses or being attacked by the civilians in Zepa?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Well, as far as I know, that did not happen, and I think I've

 5     said this clearly several times already.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Well, the reason I'm asking you is that there were

 7     also stories about people being raped and so on.

 8             Now, tell us, please, were you told and could you actually

 9     observe that all these activities were being filmed during the

10     negotiations in Boksanica and the transfer?

11        A.   Well, I already answered and said that I did see all those events

12     being filmed, but I wasn't going to say it then.  But I did see the

13     cameraman, and I knew that everything was being filmed.

14        Q.   Thank you.  We had occasion to see some of that footage here in

15     the courtroom, and portions of those conversations that we could see and

16     hear actually helped refresh our memory, and this was to assist the

17     Trial Chamber.  Would it be of even greater assistance if everything had

18     been filmed?  Would that have been more useful, both for the

19     Trial Chamber or the Court and for us, that all the events, everything,

20     absolutely everything, had been filmed?

21        A.   Well, the more information one has, the clearer the picture one

22     has of any event.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I promised you that I would show you a video-clip

24     from the Boksanica meeting, but then the Trial Chamber intervened and it

25     wasn't necessary, and the Trial Chamber could see that there were -- that

Page 4805

 1     there was no pressure exerted of any sort on you.  And if you feel that

 2     we need to show that video-clip, we can.

 3        A.   Well, I don't think it's necessary.

 4        Q.   Could you now tell me whether the negotiators, and I won't

 5     mention their names, who were from Zepa and who negotiated with

 6     representatives of the VRS, had the mandate and the authority to

 7     negotiate and to put forward their proposals?  Thank you.

 8        A.   Well, I will now speak about the 19th and the 24th of July.

 9             We had an agreement and the mandate to negotiate, but only in

10     respect of the civilian population.  And, again, I have to reiterate that

11     the able-bodied or military-aged men were out of our competence.  They

12     were not -- we did not have the mandate for that, nor could anyone else.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the question that Ratko Mladic put, whether you

14     were ready to negotiate, right at the outset of the meeting with him, and

15     Kulovac said, Yes, when Mladic asked Kulovac whether he had the mandate

16     and the authority to negotiate, and Kulovac answered in the affirmative,

17     was that, in fact, so?

18        A.   Well, to be honest, I've tried to remember those moments, but it

19     was difficult.  And whether he had any previous agreement with Avdo

20     without my knowledge, and whether he had any ideas or any thoughts in

21     that respect, I don't know, but what I can confirm is that before we left

22     off for the negotiations, Benjamin, Avdo, and I did not really talk about

23     that, as far as I can recall, much less was any agreement or any

24     arrangement agreed between us.  And these people, I have to say, were

25     very prominent people in Zepa, and they were an important factor in these

Page 4806

 1     events, and they could have an influence on the civilian population.  But

 2     whether I was involved in any agreements about whether we should or

 3     shouldn't surrender the weapons, whether the able-bodied men should or

 4     shouldn't surrender the weapons, no, it did not happen.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  But did the VRS put, as a condition for all the other

 6     negotiations, this one condition that able-bodied men should surrender

 7     their weapons?  Was that a logical position on the Serb side?

 8        A.   Well, yes, from their point of view, of course.

 9        Q.   Now, could we still consider an area a demilitarised area if

10     soldiers are still armed?

11        A.   Well, the very term "demilitarisation" means that -- or implies

12     that no weapons should be in the area, so that name, itself, tells you

13     that the first thing that has to be done is that the weapons have to be

14     removed.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir, for your testimony.

16     Thank you for your answers and for your fair conduct, and I wish you a

17     safe trip and may God bless you in all your activities.  And I would like

18     to thank you and everyone else on behalf of the Defence, including the

19     interpreters, the Technical Service, and the Trial Chamber for their

20     assistance over the past eight days in carrying out these proceedings.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

22             Mr. Thayer, do you have re-examination?

23             MR. THAYER:  I do, Mr. President.  I thank you, and good morning

24     to you and Your Honours.  Good morning to the Defence.  Good morning,

25     everyone.

Page 4807

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

 2        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   Before I get going, and I just want to say this in open

 5     session - we don't need to go into private session - I just want to let

 6     you know again that I deeply and personally regret the discomfort, the

 7     insecurity, that you've expressed to the Trial Chamber.  You don't need

 8     to respond.  I just wanted you to understand my feelings about this

 9     matter, and I just feel obligated to let you know that.

10             Let me pick up, sir, with some of the documents General Tolimir

11     showed you most recently, and the first is 1D00267, the list that you had

12     in hard copy.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is D111, marked for identification, just

14     for --

15             MR. THAYER:  Yes.  I beg your pardon, Mr. President.  That's

16     correct.

17        Q.   Now, General Tolimir yesterday tendered this list, he said, so as

18     to reflect the fact, in his words, that there were no men of military age

19     who were killed out of those on this list.  Do you remember that?

20        A.   If my memory serves me well, General Tolimir, in reference to

21     this list of names, said that this was the list of people who had left

22     for Serbia.  And I was asked to confirm whether these were local people

23     from Zepa, based on the names that appear on the list, and that is what I

24     answered and said.  But from various reports and stories that people told

25     me, I know what the fate of those people was, and everything that I said

Page 4808

 1     about this list was really based on hearsay, on what I heard others say.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sir, either there was a

 4     misinterpretation of what I said or bad translation, but could Mr. Thayer

 5     please point the portion of the transcript where that was said, because I

 6     did not say that these were men of military age.  I said these were men

 7     of military age who had crossed the mountain and went into Serbia because

 8     they didn't want to accept the proposal that they should disarm.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't see any contradiction to the question of

10     Mr. Thayer.  But, Mr. Thayer, it would be really helpful if you could

11     indicate where you are quoting from.

12             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Mr. President.  That's at transcript

13     page 4791 to 4792, where the accused says:

14             "Thank you, Mr. President.

15             "I just seek to tender D267 into evidence so as to reflect the

16     fact that there were no men of military age who were killed out of those

17     on the list."

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

19             Please carry on.

20             MR. THAYER:

21        Q.   Now, sir, do you know whether or not, with respect to the men on

22     that list, the VRS was actually able to get its hands on them?

23        A.   As far as I know, they were questioned in Serbia by a VRS team,

24     or, rather, this matter was investigated.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  That's another possible

Page 4809

 1     interpretation of what the witness said.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was investigated in Serbia by

 3     a VRS team.

 4             MR. THAYER:

 5        Q.   And my question to you is, sir:  Do you have any knowledge about

 6     how these men and boys on this list that General Tolimir showed you made

 7     it over to Serbia?  Do you know how they got there?

 8        A.   According to reports that I heard, they crossed the Drina River,

 9     which was on the border of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia, in that

10     area.  I don't have a lot of information about why they decided to do so.

11     I don't know if there are any documents about that, but subsequently, I

12     had occasion to talk to some of these people, and the answer was that

13     because everyone was going, they went too.  And some of them actually

14     crossed over directly to the territory of Serbia and made their way

15     through the territory under the control of the BH Army.

16        Q.   And can you tell the Trial Chamber anything that you learned

17     about the circumstances of their crossing over, their leaving Zepa and

18     crossing over to Serbia?

19        A.   Well, what I know is that after the 27th of July, all men of

20     military age were in the area between the Zepa and Brlog mountains, which

21     means that they were on the mountain plateau, and it is probable that

22     they were still in communication with the General Staff of the BH Army at

23     that time.  Now, what happened afterwards, I really don't know, but

24     basically they then dispersed and formed smaller groups that then moved

25     through the territory under the control of Republika Srpska, and some of

Page 4810

 1     them crossed over into Serbia.  How, or why, or where they got that idea

 2     from, I really don't know.  I don't have that information.

 3        Q.   Well, did you ever hear --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, just to clarify something, on

 5     page 16, lines 13 -- sorry, lines 13, 14, 15, it is recorded:

 6             "And some of them actually crossed over directly to the territory

 7     of Serbia and made their way through the territory under the control of

 8     the BH Army."

 9             Now, we heard, at the end of page 16:

10             "I really don't know, but basically they then dispersed and

11     formed smaller groups that then moved through the territory under the

12     control of the Republika Srpska."

13             I'm not sure if there is perhaps any contradiction.  Perhaps you

14     can clarify that.

15             MR. THAYER:  No, you're absolutely correct, Mr. President.

16        Q.   These men and boys from Zepa -- describe to the Trial Chamber

17     your understanding of the territories through which they passed and where

18     they ended up.  Just one more time so we have it clear on the transcript,

19     please.

20        A.   Well, this is how it was:  All men of military age from Zepa, and

21     there were among them probably also those, as you suggested, who were

22     young boys but who where afraid to board those buses lest they be taken

23     off them, so they joined the other men, and generally they headed in two

24     opposite directions.  One group headed for Serbia, which was to the east.

25     And the Zepa enclave has a direct border with Serbia at one point across

Page 4811

 1     the Drina River.  That's on the east side of the enclave.  And those are

 2     the men on this list.

 3             Now, the other group of men headed in the opposite direction.

 4     They headed westward or to the north-west, towards Kladanj, which was

 5     over or through the territory under the control of Serbs to the territory

 6     under the control of the BH Army.  There were also groups, such as

 7     Hamdija Dedic's group that we mentioned a few moments ago, who headed

 8     towards Visegrad or Rogatica and so on.  But most of them -- 95 per cent

 9     of them split and headed in these two directions that I mentioned.

10        Q.   Now, focusing for a minute on the men and boys who crossed the

11     Drina River into Serbia, sir, can you share with the Trial Chamber

12     anything you learned about the actual experience that they had as they

13     made that crossing from Bosnia and Herzegovina, across the Drina River,

14     to Serbia?

15        A.   Well, see, I only heard a few of those stories, so everything I'm

16     going to tell you is really hearsay, it's based on stories told by

17     others.  But they were to the effect that it was really difficult, that

18     they were afraid, and I assume that the best descriptions would be given

19     by maybe a person who actually experienced that who could testify about

20     it.  But it was a long time ago, and I really don't know too many

21     details.

22        Q.   Sir, the Trial Chamber --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, during my

25     cross-examination, the witness -- I did not ask the witness about the

Page 4812

 1     structure, the composition, or anything else referring to the people from

 2     the list.  I only asked if they were from the Zepa enclave and whether

 3     any of them were killed in the events surrounding Zepa in the period we

 4     are -- he was testifying about.  We did not discuss either the sex or the

 5     age of these men or anything else.  There was no mention made that there

 6     were children or anything to that effect.  And if there was any such

 7     information, we need to be told about it in advance, because he can't

 8     ask -- you can't ask the Trial Chamber whether there were children or

 9     not.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, on the list, we can see the

11     dates of birth, and maybe on the basis of that.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think you used this list by

13     examination of this witness, and Mr. Thayer is allowed to do the same.

14     I think it is not -- we can't follow your objection.

15             Mr. Thayer, please carry on.

16             MR. THAYER:  Rest assured, sir, the Trial Chamber will hear from

17     some of these men who, as you said, were fearful and swam across the

18     Drina River.

19        Q.   Did you ever hear that as these men were preparing to cross and

20     as they crossed the river, that the VRS shot and shelled them as they

21     fled across the river?

22        A.   I think I did hear stories to that effect.  I don't know too many

23     details, but one of the stories was to that effect.

24        Q.   Now, General Tolimir again, and this is at the transcript

25     page 4773, suggested that these men and boys made it to Serbia, and I

Page 4813

 1     quote, "under the auspices of the ICRC."  Now, we all know that once they

 2     reached Serbia, they were registered by the ICRC, but do you have any

 3     information that any of these men and boys who fled for their lives

 4     across the Drina River were in any way assisted by the ICRC before they

 5     did so?

 6        A.   I don't.  My knowledge was that after they were -- after they

 7     surrendered or were captured - I don't know what the best term is - by

 8     the Army of Yugoslavia, they were actually held and registered at two

 9     locations, Sljivovica and some field or other, and that that's where they

10     were registered by the ICRC.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13             I never said that they had crossed the Drina under the auspices

14     of the ICRC.  There's either a transcript error or a translation error.

15     What I did say was that later on they were registered by the ICRC.  Thank

16     you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. THAYER:  Again, Mr. President, I provided the transcript cite

19     for the Trial Chamber, and everybody can see what the general said.

20        Q.   Now, sir --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

22             MR. THAYER:  Thank you.

23        Q.   After these men from Zepa made it over to Serbia, in whose

24     custody did they remain in Serbia?

25        A.   From what I know, and I'm probably not the best witness for that,

Page 4814

 1     but what I generally know, from the stories that were being told, was

 2     that they surrendered to the Army of Yugoslavia.  And later on, at those

 3     two locations that I mentioned, they were questioned by teams of the VRS

 4     which arrived there.  That's what I know, based on the stories of the

 5     people who were there.

 6        Q.   And based on those accounts from people with whom you've spoken

 7     and heard from, after those people were interviewed in Serbia by members

 8     of the VRS, did the VRS actually ever get their hands on any of the

 9     people on that list and bring them back to Bosnia or did they stay in

10     Serbia after they were questioned by the VRS?

11        A.   I truly don't know that.  Anything I'd say would amount to

12     speculation.  I don't exclude that possibility, but I'm really not aware

13     of it.

14        Q.   Okay.  We'll have other witnesses to testify about that, sir.

15             Now, based on your knowledge, were all of these men and boys who

16     fled over -- across the Drina River to Serbia soldiers or were some

17     civilians as well?

18        A.   I probably said something to that effect a moment ago.  If I look

19     at the list, I see a person who was, for example, born in 1976, which

20     makes that person 19 years old.  Other than that, I really don't know.  I

21     listened to what people had to tell me a full year later.  I do not

22     exclude the possibility of some civilians being with the group, and

23     perhaps there were some people who were not able-bodied men or did not

24     belong to that age category.

25        Q.   Okay.  You mentioned some boys who you said might have been too

Page 4815

 1     fearful to get on the buses.  Let's look at this document, this list that

 2     General Tolimir showed you.

 3             And if we could go to page 8, please.

 4             Okay.  Let's just focus on a couple of these entries.  Do you see

 5     it on your screen, sir?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   We can see, as we're going across this chart, that we have the

 8     person's name, and then their date of birth, and what appears to be maybe

 9     their place of birth.  Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, place of birth.

11        Q.   Okay.  And then there's a column that's headed

12     "Pripadnost Jedinici."  What does that mean?

13        A.   It should mean "Unit Membership," in other words, what military

14     organisational unit they belonged to.  In other words, it indicates

15     whether a person was a member of the army or not.  If they were, then the

16     unit is specified.  For example, I see here "The 1st Zepa Brigade."  If

17     we have a line, in the next column we are supposed to see their

18     professions.  And in most cases of the people who do not have any

19     designation in the previous column, the last column states "Student."

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at entry number 3.  Do you see that, sir, on

21     the far left column?  These individuals are numbered, and it's number 3,

22     but it's actually -- yeah, it's number 3, it looks like a "Sadet Muhic,"

23     date of birth --

24        A.   The 16th of February, 1980.  That's when he was born.

25        Q.   Okay.  And we see, in the last column -- well, we see, in the

Page 4816

 1     last column, it says "Ucenik," and, again, what's that?

 2        A.   "Ucenik" is a person attending a school.  If I look at his date

 3     of birth, I'd say he was then in elementary school, in the eighth grade,

 4     according to Bosnian classifications.  At that time, he was 15 years of

 5     age.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And as you mentioned a moment ago, that explains the line

 7     through the column for his military unit, indicating that, obviously, he

 8     doesn't have one; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, precisely, and I explained that in detail, I believe, when I

10     addressed the way these people were being put on the list.

11        Q.   Okay.  And if we just look a little further down the list, we can

12     see similar lines and the designation of student at entry numbers 7, 8,

13     9, 11 and 12.  Do you see that, sir, all of those entries with dates of

14     birth in 1980 or 1978?  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes, I do.  I did see it a moment ago when I commented on it.  7,

16     8, 9, 11 and 12, as well as 3 and 4.

17        Q.   Now, General Tolimir suggested to you that one of the reasons why

18     all of these people on this list fled across the river was because they

19     were afraid that they may have been on some kind of criminal indictment

20     for the events that you talked about; combat or the ambush, however we

21     want to characterise it, of 4 June 1992 at the Zlovrh elevation.  Do you

22     remember that question from General Tolimir?

23        A.   Yes, I do, but I have a small correction to make.  The clash took

24     place a bit further away from Zlovrh, at Budicin Potok, and the aim of

25     the military column that was attained was Zlovrh.  Between Zlovrh,

Page 4817

 1     itself, and the place of the clash, there are between 10 and 15

 2     kilometres, in my assessment.  In any case, I recall that.

 3        Q.   So all the people that we just talked about, these students,

 4     would have been, if I'm doing my math correctly, about 12 years old at

 5     that time, sir?

 6        A.   Yes, some even less.  For example, this person was 10 years

 7     old -- no, sorry, 12.  Most of them who were registered as students were

 8     of that age.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Given that there's no clear

11     indication when they were 12, whether in 1992 or in 1995 when these

12     activities took place, for the record, we should clarify when they were

13     12 and when they were older.  We need to know how old they were at each

14     point in time and how they were categorised under the law of the

15     Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina as being fit for military service,

16     or being part of the work force, et cetera.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, it's a matter of simple arithmetic, and

19     General Tolimir very well knows what this list shows and what these dates

20     of birth are.  He can look at the dates, just as we did, and do the math.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was compiled in 1995, as we can see at the

22     top of the -- on the 2nd of August, 1995, if I read it correctly.

23             Please carry on.

24             MR. THAYER:

25        Q.   Now, at the transcript page 4789 -- again, in the same way that

Page 4818

 1     General Tolimir showed you this list to suggest that men weren't killed

 2     by the VRS after they were captured, at 4789 of yesterday's transcript he

 3     asked you, and I quote:

 4             "Were there any able-bodied men killed by the VRS after they

 5     surrendered, with the exclusion of Avdo Palic, Amir Imamovic?"

 6             And then you added Mehmed Hajric later on.  Do you remember that,

 7     sir?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, Mr. Tolimir raised one topic, the age

10     in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- in which age is a male person fit for military

11     service.  Could you please ask the witness.

12             MR. THAYER:

13        Q.   Sir, did you understand the Presiding Judge's question?

14        A.   I understand Mr. President's question in the following way:  I

15     would need to say how old a person has to be to be considered of military

16     age under the then legislation in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The age is 18.

17     One has to have celebrated his 18th birthday.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

19             Please carry on.

20             MR. THAYER:

21        Q.   Now, again, General Tolimir asked you this question yesterday at

22     transcript page 4789:

23             "Were there any able-bodied men killed by the VRS after they

24     surrendered, with the exclusion of Avdo Palic, Amir Imamovic?"

25             And then you added "Mehmed Hajric."

Page 4819

 1             Do you remember that question?  He asked it, again, in relation,

 2     like he did with this list, to suggest that no men from Zepa were killed

 3     by the VRS.

 4        A.   Yes, I recall that question.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  May we have 65 ter 202, please.

 6        Q.   As you can see, what we have here is a daily combat report from

 7     Lieutenant-Colonel Rajko Kusic, who you've numerous times identified as

 8     the commander of the Rogatica Brigade.  It's dated the 8th of August,

 9     1995.  And paragraph 1, he writes and reports:

10             "On 7 August 1995, in the afternoon, in the canyon of the Praca

11     River ..."

12             Just generally speaking, where is -- do you have any idea where

13     this location would be, this canyon of the Praca River?  We don't need

14     GPS coordinates, but if you could just orient the Trial Chamber a little

15     bit to where the canyon of the Praca River would be.

16        A.   Yes.  It is to the south of Zepa, relatively close to Gorazde.

17        Q.   Colonel Kusic continues:

18             "Five remaining balijas, who were, after the fall of Zepa,

19     travelling along the following route ..."

20             And he gives the route here:

21             "Luka, crossed the Drina River by boat, Kamenici Potok, Babina

22     Gora, Gradina, Kapetanovici, crossed the Drina River on the logs,

23     Crni Vrh, Kopito, above Medjedja, Ustipraca, went down to the railroad

24     tracks at Dub and tried to reach Renovica, walking on the railroad

25     tracks, were liquidated.

Page 4820

 1             "The group was separate and it travelled for 10 days."

 2             Do you see that, sir?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   "The same day, in the vicinity of Luke, an unarmed Ustasha ..."

 5             Now, first of all, can you tell us, generally speaking, where

 6     Luke is?

 7        A.   Luke is north of Zepa.  Administratively speaking, it was within

 8     the municipality of Srebrenica.

 9        Q.   It continues:

10             "... in the vicinity of Luka, an unarmed Ustasha ..."

11             Can you explain what this term "Ustasha" refers to here in

12     Colonel Kusic's report?

13        A.   Originally, Ustashas were members of the Croatian forces during

14     the Second World War, allied with the fascists.  During this war, it was

15     used as a derogatory term by the Serbs to denote -- to designate

16     membership in the Croatian forces and occasionally also in the Muslim

17     forces.  Perhaps I should correct myself.  They also sometimes referred

18     in that way to the members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I should

19     not have said "the Muslim forces."

20        Q.   Okay.  Well, he continues:

21             "... an unarmed Muslim," shall we say, "born in Srebrenica, 24

22     years old, was liquidated.  Before he died, he said that he fell behind

23     the others and he was looking for food."

24             Do you see that, sir?

25        A.   Yes, I can see it.

Page 4821

 1        Q.   Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber how this report of a hungry,

 2     unarmed Muslim male being liquidated by VRS forces as he travelled

 3     alone -- how does that correspond or not with this state of mind that

 4     you've told the Trial Chamber so many times about, this fear that you've

 5     described being possessed by the people of Zepa?

 6        A.   This is a clear illustration of the fear.  They were fearful of

 7     being killed without due process, without ever being able to say

 8     anything.

 9             If I may, I'd like to add something with regards to my

10     yesterday's answers, when I answered the questions of Mr. Tolimir.

11     I think his question was a bit more narrow.  I can testify to what I

12     know.

13             For example, after the fall of Zepa, I think there was a witness

14     testifying to that, saying something I also am aware of, those Zepa

15     fighters who were captured by the VRS, as far as I know, according to the

16     stories, there were 12 to 14 of them who were killed, and this person

17     could be one of that group.  I don't know why, but I guess that group was

18     trying to reach Gorazde.  Most of them were killed immediately.  There

19     was one case when a person was captured by the Visegrad Brigade.  It was

20     Dedija Hamdic [as interpreted], the person General Tolimir asked me

21     about, and then there were some other cases of people from the

22     municipality of Han Pijesak.

23             So I don't want the record to reflect that no one was killed, but

24     as far as I know, as far as I could hear, there were between 12 and 14

25     people who were killed following their capture.

Page 4822

 1        Q.   Now, in the beginning of his cross-examination of you this

 2     morning, sir, General Tolimir asked you about some names.  He put some

 3     names to you and asked you whether you knew some of these people.  He

 4     asked you about a Selvir -- I'm sorry, a Mustafa Hodzic.  Do you remember

 5     that?

 6        A.   Yes, I remember the question.  My answer was that I don't know

 7     who the person was, at least not off the top of my head.  If my memory

 8     was refreshed, perhaps I might.  I also subsequently recalled the Defence

 9     exhibit entitled "State Secret," and that Samir Halilovic is the son of

10     General Halilovic.  And I also recall that the title of his book was

11     "State Secret," and I needed a document to jog my memory.

12             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  May we go into private session for a couple

13     of questions, please, Mr. President?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4823











11 Pages 4823-4827 redacted. Private session.















Page 4828

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

24             MR. THAYER:  I see we're at the break, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Exactly.  We are now at the time for the first

Page 4829

 1     break.

 2             We adjourn, and resume at 11.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Thayer, please carry on.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             Just to let the Trial Chamber know, I furnished the Defence the

 8     information that formed the basis of my additional question concerning

 9     Mr. Mustafa or Mujo Hodzic.  And I don't mean to be cagey or cryptic,

10     it's just that our practice is to try to not let what one witness --

11     while one witness is here, let what another witness said possibly

12     influence their testimony.  So we don't like the cross-pollination

13     potential, so we try to keep our witness's testimony based, as much as

14     possible, on their own experience.  And that's the only reason why I

15     preferred to do that out of the hearing of the witness.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand your intention.  On the other hand,

17     we should be able to follow and to understand what is the basis for some

18     question.  That was the reason why we asked you to provide us with this

19     information.

20             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  And I can hand up -- if the Court wishes to

21     see the actual document, I have an additional copy, and I can hand that

22     up to the Trial Chamber just to see what I was talking about or where the

23     question emanated from.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It depends on the question how you intend to

25     proceed with this witness.

Page 4830

 1             MR. THAYER:  That water is long under the bridge.  I've moved on

 2     from that set of questions.  And his knowledge, as you saw, about that

 3     particular individual was nil, I think.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's right.  Please, just move on.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             At this time, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter 202.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P755.

 9             MR. THAYER:

10        Q.   And, sir, just to follow up with a final question on this general

11     topic:  You referred to Mr. Palic at some point being accompanied by an

12     escort, and you indicated that that person is still alive.  Do you know

13     the name of that person, and can you share it?

14        A.   I know for a fact that he's still alive.  But what his name is, I

15     can't really recall.  I can see his face before me, but I can't recall

16     his name.  I'm sorry.  If you help me, give me a cue of some sort, I

17     might be able to remember it.  I know who you are referring to.  I know

18     that he is still alive.  His last name might be Piric, but I don't really

19     want to guess.  He is a young man, much younger than me.  And as I said,

20     I can see him before me, but I just can't recall the name.

21        Q.   And what was his position, his unit, if you know?

22        A.   What unit?  Well, he was someone who was an aide to

23     Colonel Palic, as it were.  He was a soldier who always went with him.

24     I think he was from Avdo's village, from Krivaca, most probably, from the

25     same village where Avdo was from.

Page 4831

 1        Q.   Okay.  What I want to do now, sir, is just go back to some

 2     specific portions of your testimony and ask you some follow-up questions.

 3             Back on the 30th of August, and this was at transcript page 4568,

 4     you were testifying about the order that Colonel Palic received to

 5     conduct some operations, and that members of the War Presidency disagreed

 6     with that order.  Do you remember those questions being asked of you,

 7     both in your examination-in-chief and in cross-examination, sir?

 8        A.   Yes, I do remember it, but I think the date was not the 30th of

 9     August.  It must have been something else, because it's impossible.  The

10     30th of August, Zepa had already fallen.  Maybe it was misinterpreted.

11        Q.   I'm sorry, I meant that the 30th of August was the date of your

12     testimony here.  I was just --

13        A.   Oh, I see.

14        Q.   -- for the record.  Let me just quote back to you this question

15     and answer, and I just want to ask a follow-up question.

16             General Tolimir asked you, and again this is at transcript

17     page 4568 on 30 August:

18             "During the examination-in-chief, you said that the

19     War Presidency was against attacks being launched from within the

20     enclaves?"

21             And your answer was:  "Yes."

22             You were asked:

23             "Tell us a little bit more about that."

24             And then you answered:

25             "Well, that was a reference to an order that had arrived, and

Page 4832

 1     I think I was shown that order three and a half years ago, when I

 2     testified here.  I think it was a Defence exhibit.  It referred to the

 3     period of June 1995, and I think that the situation was that the

 4     situation was worsened at the time.  We received this order from the

 5     War Presidency, and Avdo Palic actually did these things, although we

 6     were against it."

 7             Okay.  Have you had a chance to have that translated to you?

 8     And, first, I see you have something to say, and that may actually get to

 9     my next question, so go ahead.

10        A.   Yes, I do remember this, but I don't remember saying we received

11     this order from the War Presidency.  Maybe it was misinterpreted.  It

12     doesn't make sense.  And then Avdo Palic -- in other words, this order

13     could have come - that's what I said - from some command, whether from

14     the 2nd Corps or some other part of the BH Army, so it's a bit unclear to

15     me, this portion of the transcript which begins with:  "We received this

16     order from ...," and then onwards.

17        Q.   Okay, because that was the question I had, was whether your

18     testimony was, in fact, that this military order came from the

19     War Presidency.

20        A.   No, I don't know how that found its way here, but that order had

21     come from the BH Army Command, I think from the Command of the 2nd Corps

22     specifically, because the 28th Division was officially under their

23     command.  And then, lower down, we had the 285th Brigade of that

24     division, and so this is what struck me as different, and that is why I

25     reacted.  This order did not come from the War Presidency or any other

Page 4833

 1     political body.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, at transcript page 4285, and this was from the 23rd

 3     of August, 2010, you testified that from spring 1993 until spring 1995,

 4     and I quote:

 5             "During that period, as far as I can remember, there was

 6     occasional shelling, but there were no infantry attacks against the Zepa

 7     enclave.  I believe that the shelling in question always came in response

 8     to some of the events outside of the Zepa enclave."

 9             And then you added at the next page that, I quote:

10             "I meant to say that they were probably retaliating for

11     something."

12             And you further recalled, I quote:

13             "I think once they targeted the center of Zepa, speaking from

14     memory, I believe it was in response of the VRS to NATO bombardment of

15     certain targets at Jahorina.  I think I can tie these two things

16     together."

17             And you added that it was possible this was in May of 1995.

18             Do you recall that testimony, sir?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   Okay.  And do you recall whether any safe areas, other than the

21     Zepa enclave, were shelled by the VRS that same day, whatever day it was

22     in May?

23        A.   I can't recall, as I sit here.  But it would make sense, if these

24     things were connected, that all the enclaves should be shelled.  When I

25     say "all," I mean Srebrenica and Gorazde to the south.  But whether it

Page 4834

 1     actually did happen, I don't remember.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And in a minute I'm going to get to the crux of my

 3     question, which goes to a document that General Tolimir showed you, and

 4     we'll look at that document in a second and you'll see why I'm trying to

 5     lay this foundation for you.

 6             The next document I want to show you, before going back to

 7     General Tolimir's document, is 65 ter 6020, please.

 8             We'll just briefly look at this cover page before we go into the

 9     document, itself.

10             What we have here is it's an UNPROFOR document from the

11     Civil Affairs officer from the UNPROFOR Command, and it's dated 7 June

12     1995, concerning -- what it says here is "the Tuzla incident."

13             And if we can go to the second page, please, and this is what I

14     want to focus on.

15             It says here at the heading "Shelling of Tuzla Air Force Base and

16     Tuzla Old Town, 25 May 1995."  And we do have a B/C/S translation of this

17     document which should be available in e-court.  If not, I'll just

18     continue reading the relevant section.

19             It says:

20             "As a sequel to air-strikes administered by NATO at Pale Ammo

21     Dump, BSA," that's the term they used for the VRS at the time, "resorted

22     to massive retaliatory artillery shelling against Tuzla Town and Tuzla

23     Air Force Base, which is considered deliberate targeting of UN troops and

24     Tuzla Safe Area ..."

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, we have it on the screen now, the

Page 4835

 1     B/C/S translation.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Right.  Thank you very much, Mr. President, and it's

 3     the first paragraph in both versions we're looking at.

 4        Q.   And it refers to a number of shells, and one of them hitting the

 5     old part of Tuzla city center, a place where young people flock together.

 6     And as a consequence, 66 people were massacred and 170 wounded, 31

 7     critically.

 8             Now, the reason I'm asking you about this document is:  First of

 9     all, do you recall this incident happening at the time?

10        A.   Are you referring to Tuzla?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   Well, look, that's a matter that was well known to everyone in

13     Bosnia.  That happened on the 25th of May, and every year this event is

14     marked, when a shell killed 66 people, most of them young people, because

15     it was a place where young people gathered aged between 15 and 25, let's

16     say.  And as far as I can recall, that happened in the afternoon/early

17     evening hours.  And I think that this case was prosecuted at local --

18     before the local court in Sarajevo, and I don't know if some sentences

19     were passed to officers who are responsible for this shelling.  So this

20     is a well-known incident.  It can be compared to Markale and other

21     incidents.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24             We should know whether this is what the witness recollects from

25     that period and whether the shelling was executed by the commander of the

Page 4836

 1     Drina Corps, which was in charge of combat activities around Zepa.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, would you follow up?

 3             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Sir, do you have any idea of which unit of the VRS was

 5     responsible for this shelling?

 6        A.   What I know is that the shell arrived from the Serb positions at

 7     Majevica, which is a mountain.  It is to the north-east of the center of

 8     Tuzla.  I don't know what the actual areas of responsibility between the

 9     corps of the VRS was.  I don't know whether it was the Drina Corps or

10     not.  What I do know and what I could read was that the shell had come

11     from a position at Majevica.  I don't know what corps there was.  Perhaps

12     it could be found in some documents.

13        Q.   Okay.  And my question is actually very simple, sir, and it is

14     this:  Having your recollection refreshed about the date of this

15     incident, which you've told us everybody in Bosnia knows about, does that

16     help you place the date of the shelling that you described and that I

17     read back to you from your testimony, which you said was possibly in May

18     of 1995 and that you thought was in response to NATO bombardment of

19     certain targets at Jahorina?  So, again, my question is just very simple.

20     Is there any relationship between the dates of the Tuzla shelling and the

21     shelling that you recalled and testified about occurring sometime in May?

22     Just try to see if that jogs your recollection.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you answer.

24             Mr. Tolimir.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 4837

 1             Since we are relying here on the witness's recollection, and the

 2     witness is referring to proceedings before national courts, perhaps he

 3     should be asked whether anyone from the firing position of Ozren was

 4     sentenced for that crime and whether Majevica was in the area of

 5     responsibility of the Drina Corps as well as Ozren.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir, but this is a

 7     recommendation for Mr. Thayer.  But at the moment, Mr. Thayer is putting

 8     questions to the witness, and I think he should carry on.

 9             Witness, do you recall the question of Mr. Thayer?  If that is

10     the case, please provide us with an answer.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do remember it.

12             The shelling of the center of Zepa happened in late May.  The

13     event in Tuzla took place on the 25th of May.  Following that logic, one

14     would say that it all happened around the same date.

15             If I may, I'd like to respond briefly to Mr. Tolimir's

16     intervention.

17             I did say "Majevica," but it was most likely from Ozren, which is

18     on the opposite side.  I don't know who the person who was sentenced for

19     it was.  In any case, Majevica or Ozren doesn't mean much to me.  They

20     were both positions in existence at the time.  It could well be that it

21     was Ozren, but Ozren is on the opposite side, so we're speaking about the

22     north-easterly and north-westerly direction.  In any case, it was all

23     around the 25th of that month.

24             MR. THAYER:  Okay.

25             Now, if we could take a look at D98, which is the document that

Page 4838

 1     General Tolimir showed you and which is the reason I'm asking you all of

 2     these questions to begin with.  If we could have that up on e-court,

 3     please.

 4        Q.   While we're getting this enlarged in English, just to bring you

 5     back a little bit:  General Tolimir showed this to you at transcript

 6     page 4584, and that was on the 30th of August, and we can see here again

 7     it's a report by Avdo Palic and it's dated the 28th of May, 1995.  And my

 8     question for you emanates from General Tolimir's question to you in his

 9     cross-examination.  He asked you if you knew anything about why the

10     measures were taken that are described in here, and again we have here at

11     item 1:

12             "Measures have been taken to seal off the areas controlled by

13     UNPROFOR and the direction of possible withdrawal.

14             "No signs were registered of the situation deteriorating or

15     anything that would indicate a possible withdrawal of UNPROFOR, except

16     for their fear, to an extent, of a possible Chetnik attack."

17             Now, again, General Tolimir asked you whether you know anything

18     about why these measures were taken at the time.  And having had your

19     recollection refreshed about the shelling of the Tuzla Air Force Base,

20     and the targeting of UNPROFOR, and, to use the words in that document,

21     the massacre of those civilians, can you enlighten the Trial Chamber any

22     further than you were able to a few days ago, having had your

23     recollection refreshed now about the dates of these events?  Is there any

24     connection?  If there isn't, please let us know.  If there is, please let

25     us know, sir.

Page 4839

 1        A.   I think I can.  I remember it as a particularly heavy shelling of

 2     the center of Zepa, when the mosque was hit as well.  That was in the

 3     very center of Zepa.  Some 10 shells landed.  At that point in time, it

 4     was expected that an infantry attack would ensue against the enclave.

 5     Avdo seems to be referring to a document of the 26th of May, whereas this

 6     one is of the 28th of May, so they were probably in communication about

 7     what to do.  He reported on the measures undertaken.  This is what it is

 8     about, I believe.

 9             I remember the shelling, in any case, and I remember it was on a

10     Friday, because on that day the Muslims follow a specific religious

11     ritual.

12        Q.   And do you remember at this time, following this NATO air attack,

13     various UN peacekeepers being taken hostage and chained to various

14     potential NATO targets?  Do you remember that happening at the time as

15     well, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I do.  I think that footage was shown on Serb TV and radio.

17     Everyone in Bosnia is familiar with that.  It's a widely-known story.  I

18     remember the footage very well.  There seemed to have been a soldier tied

19     to a pole on top of a hill.  It was a soldier from one of the countries

20     of the West, I believe.  He may well have been a Dutch soldier.

21             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  I think we're finished with that topic, and

22     the Prosecution would tender 65 ter 6020, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P756.

25             MR. THAYER:  Okay.

Page 4840

 1        Q.   Jumping around just a little bit, sir, at transcript page 4614 to

 2     4615 you made some reference to wealthy inhabitants of Zepa.  That term

 3     can mean vastly different things, depending on where you are and the

 4     time-period.  Can you just tell the Trial Chamber, when you refer to

 5     wealthy inhabitants of Zepa, what are we talking about?

 6        A.   Could I please see the transcript so that I could look into the

 7     context?  Even a sentence would help me.  I believe General Tolimir's

 8     question was about one of his documents or, rather, one of the documents

 9     of the Defence, where it said that a part of the population of Zepa, some

10     well-off citizens wished to leave Zepa for some third countries.  I have

11     a hazy recollection of that.  But if you can't give me any further

12     context, I can try to speak from memory and explain what I meant by

13     wealthy or well-off inhabitants.

14             Well, I'd say that those who were well off were those who could

15     meet their necessities in order to survive at the time, who had some of

16     the things most of which were hard to get.  People were happy to have

17     flour, oil, salt and sugar, these basic necessities which could secure

18     your survival.  In Zepa, even before the war, there weren't people who

19     were particularly well off.  Most of them were farmers, so we can't talk

20     about any wealth in that respect.

21        Q.   Okay.  Just another point for clarification.  At transcript

22     page 4722, you referred to a meeting with Alija Izetbegovic, and my

23     question is simply:  Did you actually have any face-to-face meetings with

24     President Izetbegovic in July of 1995, or ever, or is that a problem with

25     the transcript or some other problem?

Page 4841

 1        A.   Of course, in July 1995 -- well, it was probably recorded

 2     wrongly.  We had those discussions with Mr. Izetbegovic.  There were no

 3     meetings, of course, with him.  I either misspoke or was misinterpreted.

 4     In any case, we used radio communication.  I did meet Mr. Izetbegovic, as

 5     a member of a delegation from Zepa.  There were also delegations from

 6     Srebrenica and Gorazde.  I think it took place in September 1993 in

 7     Sarajevo.  We were visiting.  There were between eight and ten of us from

 8     Zepa, and we had a short meeting with Mr. Izetbegovic.  It was in

 9     September 1993.

10        Q.   Okay.  No big deal, sir.  I just wanted to clarify that one

11     transcript page.

12             Now, what I'd like to do for the next few minutes is ask you some

13     questions about the meeting you had on the 13th of July with

14     General Tolimir at Boksanica.  There was a question from the Honourable

15     Judge Mindua about the meeting and a document that General Tolimir showed

16     you in his cross-examination, and I'm not sure if you answered the

17     question.  General Tolimir, at page 4309, said that you misinterpreted

18     his words at the meeting.  So what I want to do is just take a little bit

19     of time and ask you, again, some foundational questions, show you a

20     couple of documents, and then I'm going to take another crack at

21     Judge Mindua's question and see where we are.  Okay?

22             And Ms. Stewart will assist us with putting up some transcript

23     pages.

24             First, and I don't know we need to see the actual transcript

25     right now because it was pretty recent -- well, actually, you know what?

Page 4842

 1     Let me go back.

 2             Do you recall being asked in the Popovic case to describe the 13

 3     July meeting with General Tolimir, which was attended by yourself and

 4     Mujo Imamovic?  Do you remember being asked about that?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Do you recall what your answer was?  And, again, if you want to

 7     see the transcript, Ms. Stewart is certainly able to put that up for you,

 8     and it's from 30 March 2007.

 9        A.   Yes, I remember that.  When I testified then is what I can

10     remember.

11             At that meeting with General Tolimir, we were told that

12     Srebrenica had fallen and that it was Zepa's turn next.  This could be

13     dealt with in two ways.  The peaceful way, by evacuating the entire

14     population.  And I followed it up by my question whereby I asked whether

15     a 35-year-old man could leave, and the answer I received from

16     General Tolimir was, Yes, of course.  Next, he said that if he didn't

17     accept that possibility, there would be a military invasion on Zepa.

18     This is what I can recall from that conversation.

19             Regarding the rest of my testimony and the answer to

20     General Tolimir's question, I believe some things may have remained

21     unclear.

22        Q.   Let me just stop you there --

23        A.   Very well.

24        Q.   -- and ask you if you remember being asked essentially the same

25     question in 1998, during your OTP interview in January of 1998.  Do you

Page 4843

 1     recall being asked the same question, and do you recall what you told the

 2     investigators then about the meeting?  And, again, if you need to take a

 3     look at your statement, we can certainly put that up.

 4        A.   I remember that.  I don't need to see the statement.  What I just

 5     said a moment ago is what should be reflected in the statement; perhaps

 6     not word for word, but the gist of it is definitely the same.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Well, let's just take a look at D109 very

 8     quickly.  It's your statement.  General Tolimir showed you a lot of it

 9     during your testimony.  It's page 6 of the English, and it will be the

10     bottom of page 5 in the B/C/S.  And we shouldn't broadcast this document,

11     please.

12        Q.   And we're looking at the bottom paragraph of the B/C/S, and it's

13     the top paragraph of the English.  Do you see where it says:

14             "Tolimir did all the talking, he said that we could do this in

15     two ways.  First, he wanted a complete evacuation of the whole

16     population.  I asked Tolimir if a 35-year-old man could leave by just

17     climbing on the bus.  He replied, 'Of course.'  Should we refuse the

18     first way, then military action would follow."

19             Now, my question is:  You go on in this statement to say that:

20             "He suggested that we should start the evacuation immediately and

21     that they would bring the buses.  Tolimir stated that the evacuation

22     should take place in the same way that it had taken place in Srebrenica."

23             My question is simple, sir.  We obviously see that your

24     recollection of this has remained constant.  My specific question, in

25     looking at this, is:  Do you recall him suggesting that the evacuation

Page 4844

 1     should start immediately, and that they would bring the buses, and that

 2     the evacuation would be handled the same way as in Srebrenica?

 3        A.   Well, look, I gave this statement in 1998, I believe.  We were

 4     much closer to the events then than we are now.  From this position here,

 5     I can't fall back on anything more than what I had already said that may

 6     be in my memory.  This is 12 years later, and I'm afraid I can't say

 7     anything in addition to that.

 8        Q.   Understood, sir.  I guess the question is, then, two questions.

 9     Do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of what's here in your

10     witness statement?  Do you stand by this additional portion of your

11     statement that I just read to you?

12        A.   I can repeat what I said already.  Back in 1998, that is what I

13     could recall.  It was also further discussed when Mr. Tolimir examined

14     and some other documents were shown.  1998 was only three years after the

15     events.  This is what I said then, and I stand by each and every of my

16     statements.  Perhaps there may be a few corrections that could be made

17     anywhere, but I always said -- told the truth and to the best of my

18     recollection.  I stand by each of my statements.

19        Q.   So just to clarify, the ultimatum, as you described it in your

20     testimony, that General Tolimir gave you on the 13th of July, complete

21     evacuation of the entire population or military action, that ultimatum,

22     can you help us in terms of when, during this meeting, that ultimatum

23     came?  Did it come at the beginning, for example, the middle, or the end?

24        A.   I think it came at the very beginning, as far as I recall, at the

25     beginning of the meeting.

Page 4845

 1        Q.   Okay.  And that brings us to the Honourable Judge Mindua's

 2     question, which I think you've already touched on just recently.

 3             If we could look at P491.  This is this report that you referred

 4     to, that General Tolimir showed you during your cross-examination.  And

 5     if we can go to page 2 of the English.

 6             There were these five items that are described here, and I won't

 7     go back through all your testimony about it, but Judge Mindua had

 8     specific questions regarded to item 5, for example, which indicates the

 9     requests of the Zepa representatives at this meeting to enable them to

10     stay in the territory, for the persons who choose to do so.  My question,

11     again, is very simple.

12             These five items, were they discussed before or after

13     General Tolimir issued you the ultimatum?

14        A.   Definitely after that, speaking from memory.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now, at transcript page 4689, General Tolimir suggested in

16     his question that the Muslims from Zepa interrupted the talks between the

17     13th and the 19th of July.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened

18     after you didn't show up or didn't provide the response they were looking

19     for on the 14th of July?  So what happened between the evening of the

20     13th of July and 19 July?

21        A.   As far as I recall, and I believe I said that a few times during

22     my testimony, on the 13th, in the evening, military attacks were launched

23     on Zepa.  All contact ceased.  There was no further communication with

24     the Serb side, and we organised our lines of defence.  Those military

25     attacks against Zepa lasted until the 19th of July.

Page 4846

 1        Q.   And then after your meeting on the 19th of July at Boksanica with

 2     General Tolimir and General Mladic, what happened, when nobody from Zepa

 3     showed up to be removed on the 20th of July, until the 24th of July, when

 4     you were summoned to Boksanica again?

 5        A.   I gave evidence on that, too.  The attacks on Zepa resumed

 6     between the 20th and the 24th, and I think I mentioned at some point that

 7     those attacks were far heavier than they had been before.

 8        Q.   Now, General Tolimir also referred in his cross-examination to

 9     various meetings and conversations involving an individual named

10     David Harland.  Just for your information, if you don't know who he is,

11     he was an UNPROFOR member who was a Civil Affairs officer.  And

12     General Tolimir showed you some documents and excerpts of things that

13     referred to various meetings with David Harland, and I want to show you a

14     couple of reports that concern the events between the 19th of July, after

15     your meeting, when you said you expected there to be talks at the airport

16     to help resolve this "all for all" exchange issue, and the 24th of July,

17     when you were brought back to Boksanica.  And I want to ask you about

18     just a couple of paragraphs from these reports and see how they

19     correspond or not to what was going on on the ground.

20             The first one I want to look at, please, is 65 ter 2076.

21             We can see that this is dated 20 July 1995, and its subject is

22     "Negotiations on Zepa."  It's an UNPROFOR report from David Harland.

23             What I want to do is go to page 2 of the English, please, and

24     that will be page 3 of the B/C/S, where Mr. Harland provides an

25     assessment.  And I'd like you to take a moment and read this assessment,

Page 4847

 1     and tell the Trial Chamber to what extent this assessment reflects the

 2     events on the ground, as you were experiencing them, as you understood

 3     them at the time.

 4        A.   Could you just clarify this last portion, where it says:

 5             "Who is it who does not have any particular interest in --"

 6             I think there's some problem with the translation.  It's all

 7     right now.  I understand.  Sarajevo does not see any particular interest.

 8             Well, I would agree with the better part of this assessment by

 9     this gentleman.  I don't recall his name.

10        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's just take it a little chunk at a time.

11             Do you agree with his assessment that the Serbs do not want to

12     make a final infantry assault on Zepa, due to the nature of the terrain,

13     wherein there would inevitably be substantial casualties?

14        A.   I think that that assessment was correct, and that was in

15     evidence because you could see how Serbs actually took control of Zepa

16     part by part, and then there would be a break, and then the negotiations

17     would continue.  So I would agree with his assessment as regards the

18     final infantry assault on Zepa because, as far as I know and what I

19     learned from some Serb soldiers while I was imprisoned, they generally

20     were anxious about these infantry assaults on Zepa because of the terrain

21     and because of the negative experience they had with it in 1992.  Other

22     than that attempt, there were some other attempts that we mentioned, and

23     some we didn't, where the Serb forces did not manage to get through and

24     they had casualties.  This was the reason why their approach was as we

25     see it.

Page 4848

 1        Q.   And Mr. Harland refers to:

 2             "Their approach will be bombard and negotiate."

 3             Do you agree with that assessment or disagree with that

 4     assessment?

 5        A.   Well, I'm trying to think of what I should say now.  But as I

 6     analyse this, basically, that's how the entire story with Zepa actually

 7     developed.  There were one, two, three negotiations that I took part in,

 8     and then there were attacks preceding each one of those, most of them

 9     shelling, in fact.  Bombing and shelling in particular.

10             MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter

11     2076, please.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P757.

14             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  To save some time, I'll skip one of these

15     reports.

16             May we have 65 ter 2438, please.  And we'll need to go to page 25

17     of this document, please.  Unfortunately, we don't have a B/C/S

18     translation, but the portion we'll be discussing is very short, so I can

19     just read that portion to the witness.  And if we could go to the next

20     page, please.  Okay.

21        Q.   We have here another report from David Harland.  This one is

22     dated the 22nd of July, and it just says that it attaches a memo on the

23     subject.

24             And if we could just go to the next page, please.

25             We see, again, the date of this report is 22 July.  Its subject

Page 4849

 1     is "Negotiations on Zepa, number 4."

 2             And if we could go to the next page, and again we'll be focusing

 3     on the assessment.  And I just want to get your assessment of the

 4     assessment.  It's --

 5        A.   Could we have the translation, please?  I need the translation.

 6     I can't -- I don't read English.

 7        Q.   Again, unfortunately, we don't have a translation of this

 8     paragraph, or this document, but I'll just read it into the record for

 9     you and it will be translated that way.  Okay?

10             It's under the heading "Assessment," and it starts out:

11             "Our proposal for the total demilitarisation of Zepa remains a

12     long shot.  It is true that the Serbs are reluctant to attack the Zepa

13     pocket until they have completely worn down its population.  On the other

14     hand, it is hard to imagine that they would accept any arrangement that

15     would leave Zepa in Bosnian hands.  I imagine that they will continue to

16     make life in Zepa as miserable as possible for the local population

17     until, demoralised by the assault and abandoned by the international

18     community, they accept the 'evacuation' option being proposed by the

19     Serbs.

20             "Our chances of success are small, but we will continue with the

21     initiative until it is definitely rejected by the Serbs."

22             Again, can you tell the Trial Chamber how this corresponds or

23     not, in terms of its description, to what you were experiencing on the

24     ground at the time?

25        A.   Well, yes, it does correspond, for the most part, to my

Page 4850

 1     experience.  The entire situation in those two years and the developments

 2     toward the end were such that I can agree with this assessment.

 3             MR. THAYER:  In case the Trial Chamber is wondering, I'll reserve

 4     tendering this document because it actually is a collection of reports

 5     that came in in the last case with one 65 ter number as a collection.  So

 6     I don't know if that makes life difficult for Registry, but I will not be

 7     tendering that until we offer the entire packet through another witness.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And taking into account the amount of pages, I

 9     appreciate that.

10             MR. THAYER:

11        Q.   Now, you just told us a little while ago about the continuous

12     shelling from the 13th through the 19th, and then the 20th through the

13     24th as it intensified.  You told us that by the 24th of July, in your

14     words, I think, that the population was near panic.  And you also talked

15     about -- early in your testimony about the vulnerable situation that the

16     civilian population found itself in as it had fled to the Zepa Mountain.

17             Now, General Tolimir referred, in a number of his questions, to

18     the VRS preferring peaceful options and wanting to avoid a fight, and

19     that's at transcript pages 4747 and 4777.  I want to show you a document

20     and again ask you about a certain part of it to see how it corresponds to

21     your state of mind and the state of mind of the population in Zepa at the

22     time.

23             Can we see P488, please.

24             What we have here, sir, is a report and proposal from

25     General Tolimir to the Main Staff of the VRS.  It's dated 21 July 1995.

Page 4851

 1     As you can see, it's headed "Situation in Zepa."  I don't think you've

 2     ever been shown this document before, but I'd ask you just to take a few

 3     moments and read through it, and then I have some specific questions

 4     about certain portions of it.

 5        A.   I've read it.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I want to focus your attention on paragraphs 4 and 5.

 7             I'm sorry, if we can go back, in the English, to paragraph 4 on

 8     the prior page.  Just paragraph 4, please.  Thank you.

 9             It says:

10             "We believe that we would be in more advantageous position for

11     direct negotiations after we inflict losses on enemy's military

12     personnel.  We request means for crashing enemy's defence in the areas of

13     Brezova Ravan and Purtici."

14             If we can go to the next page, which is paragraph 5:

15             "The most propitious means of their destruction would be usage of

16     chemical weapons or aerosol grenades and bombs.  Using these means would

17     accelerate the surrender of Muslims and the fall of Zepa.

18             "We will continue with combat activities using weapons for direct

19     targeting in order to penetrate into the above-mentioned axes."

20             And then, finally, General Tolimir writes:

21             "We believe that we could force Muslims to surrender sooner if we

22     would destroy groups of Muslim refugees fleeing in the direction of

23     Stublic, Radava, and Brloska Planina."

24             Now, this proposal from General Tolimir to the Main Staff to

25     destroy groups of Muslim refugees, can you tell the Trial Chamber how

Page 4852

 1     this type of proposal, what you see here, corresponds or not corresponds

 2     to the fear that you described permeating this entire period in July 1995

 3     with respect, in particular, to the civilian population and its fate?

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             This document that was -- that is quoted shows that I did not ask

 8     for the destruction of the civilian population, but, rather, refugees and

 9     not the civilian population, and in the direction of Stublic, Radava,

10     Brloska Planina, and I would appreciate it if the questions put are in

11     keeping with this, with what is stated therein.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:

14        Q.   Sir, can you answer my question, looking at the document?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please think about to change a little bit the

17     wording of your question.  That was the request of Mr. Tolimir.  In

18     particular, to the civilian population, that is his problem.

19             MR. THAYER:

20        Q.   Well, sir, you can read that last paragraph in your own language.

21     Can you answer my question, whether that corresponded or had any

22     correspondence/correlation to the fear that you were telling the

23     Trial Chamber about, what is proposed here by General Tolimir in this

24     document?

25        A.   Of course, I've read the entire document, and this is exactly

Page 4853

 1     reflective of the fear that I mentioned and repeatedly spoke about during

 2     my evidence here, the fear that the population there had, and this, in

 3     fact -- this corresponds to it.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Witness, I have no further questions.  I thank you

 5     for your endurance and your patience.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, first of all, the Chamber would like to

 7     thank you for your patience, for your attendance here at the trial, and

 8     for the way you were able to assist the Chamber and to provide answers

 9     for all the questions put to you during exactly two weeks.  We are really

10     very grateful and hope you will be able to relax after these two very

11     difficult weeks for you.

12             This concludes the questioning for you.  The Chamber would like

13     to thank you again and wishes you all the best for your future.  Now you

14     may return to your normal activities.

15             I think the next witness will be ready for examination.  We

16     should have the second break now.  It gives us the opportunity to arrange

17     everything that has to be arranged.

18             And we will adjourn now and resume a quarter before 1.00.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before the witness should be brought in, I would

23     like to mention two matters.  The first one is in relation to our

24     decision about presentation of evidence, especially regarding the

25     accused's compliance with paragraph 1 of that decision, which requires

Page 4854

 1     that within seven days of receiving the Prosecution's list of witnesses

 2     it intends to call during the following calender month, the accused is to

 3     provide the Chamber and the Prosecution with its estimate of the time

 4     required for cross-examination for each witness.

 5             The Chamber has yet to received any such list and would very much

 6     appreciate the accused's compliance therewith.  This was to enable the

 7     other party to prepare the examination of that witness.

 8             My second remark is addressed to the Prosecution.

 9             We have realised that there are some exhibits proposed to use

10     with the witness which are not yet in the 65 ter exhibit list.  When the

11     Prosecution seeks to use a document whose 65 ter number is greater than

12     6184 [Realtime transcript read in error "6584"] - that's the end of the

13     65 ter exhibit list - we would like to ask the Prosecution to move for an

14     addition of the document to the 65 ter exhibit list.  And if that is the

15     case, we would like to ask the accused if there is any objection to that.

16     That's just a remark which should be taken into account.  And I'm not

17     sure about that, but I formed the impression that some of the exhibits

18     the Prosecution wants to use with the next witness are not yet on that

19     list.

20             Mr. Gajic.

21             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good afternoon.

22             As regards your first remark, I want to say the following:  This

23     Defence is trying to offer as good an estimate as possible we need for

24     cross-examination, and I believe so far our estimates were quite

25     realistic.  We even managed to take less time in some cases.

Page 4855

 1             As regards the upcoming witnesses, during the day tomorrow we

 2     will be sending a list which can be relied on by the OTP, the Chamber,

 3     and the Registrar.  Any delay in producing the list was the result of our

 4     willingness to provide as best information as possible to all the

 5     parties.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, Mr. Gajic, we noticed that the

 7     cross-examination was, with very few exceptions, always within the

 8     time-limit you indicated in advance.  Thank you for that.

 9             Mr. Thayer, is there, related to the second question, anything to

10     add?

11             MR. THAYER:  Perhaps it would be better if I liaised with the

12     Court Officers instead of taking up court time.  But I do have some

13     questions about the Court's instruction, but I'll just do it another way.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We agree, and the witness should be brought in,

15     please.

16             Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the Registrar

18     and the Chamber to bear in mind that I kindly requested that we work on

19     Mondays in the afternoon, or on other days, because that time is required

20     for me to consult with my legal representatives.  And this month, for

21     example, we worked on Mondays three times already.  That was one thing.

22             Another thing:  For example, we sat yesterday evening, and today

23     we were sitting in the morning.  I am brought in to my cell just before

24     the lights go out, and I don't even have time to go and get the documents

25     I needed from my working room.  And the next morning, I have to leave as

Page 4856

 1     early as quarter to 7.00.  Therefore, there is no time whatever left for

 2     my preparation.  Please bear in mind that I need time for preparation, at

 3     least half an hour a day as the minimum.  Once we concluded the session

 4     here, I arrived in my cell very late, and in the mornings I'm here at

 5     7.30 already.  If the Registrar has any influence over this, could please

 6     this be borne in mind?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we understand your request, and it

 8     is always a very difficult procedure to find the right way how to

 9     schedule the hearings.  There are so many different interests we should

10     put together to find a solution which is convenient for everybody.  But

11     we will consider your request again, and thank you for this submission.

12             Sorry for that delay.  Sir, welcome to the Tribunal.  Good

13     afternoon.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please read the affirmation on the card

16     which is shown to you now.

17             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

18     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  THOMAS DIBB

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I suppose Mr. Thayer has some questions for you.

23             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           Examination by Mr. Thayer:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

Page 4857

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   Would you please state your name for the record?

 3        A.   It's Thomas Neason Dibb.

 4        Q.   Sir, do you recall testifying here over the course of three days

 5     in October 2007?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   And did you recently have an opportunity to review your testimony

 8     in that case, the Popovic case?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Kindly observe a pause

11     between questions and answers.  Thank you.

12             MR. THAYER:  And --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

14             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Apologies, Your Honour.

15             It seems that the name of the witness was recorded incorrectly at

16     page 63, line 15 -- line 10, I'm sorry.  So page 63, line 10.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Indeed, it is wrong.  It

18     will be corrected.

19             Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.  And now you are in the same

20     position as Mr. Tolimir at other instances quite often.  Please pause

21     between question and answer.

22             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I will.

23        Q.   Sir, can you attest before this Trial Chamber that the testimony

24     which you read accurately reflects what you said in that prior trial?

25        A.   Yes, it did, it accurately reflected that.

Page 4858

 1        Q.   And can you attest before this Trial Chamber that were you asked

 2     the same questions today that you were asked back in October 2007, that

 3     your answers would be the same?

 4        A.   Yes, they would.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender P741,

 6     the witness's testimony in the Popovic case, none of which is under seal.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as P741.

 8             MR. THAYER:  And, Mr. President, I'll proceed to read the

 9     Rule 92 ter summary and then tender the associated exhibits afterwards.

10             The witness was born and raised in Zimbabwe, then joined the

11     British Army in 1991.  He studied Serbo-Croatian at the army language

12     school, and as a lieutenant served as a liaison officer and interpreter

13     at Gornji Vakuf from November 1993 until May of 1994.  In the spring of

14     1994, he and a colleague were injured by a mine that killed another

15     officer, so he returned to the UK, whereafter he served with his

16     battalion in Northern Ireland until November 1994.  In January 1995, he

17     completed a refresher language course, then deployed to UNPROFOR's BiH

18     Command in Sarajevo as a captain in April 1995, serving as an interpreter

19     and liaison officer primarily to the Serb side.  He left the army in

20     early 1996 to work for the Halo Trust, an international de-mining

21     organisation, and served in Mozambique, Republic of Georgia, Chechnya,

22     Kosovo, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, South Lebanon, and most recently

23     Afghanistan.

24             On the Serb military side, his main contact was Colonel Indjic,

25     who was based in the Lukavica Barracks in Sarajevo.  On the civilian

Page 4859

 1     side, his contact was an aide to President Karadzic named Jovan Zametica.

 2     Captain Emma Bliss served as a liaison officer and interpreter dealing

 3     primarily with the Bosniak side.

 4             On 14 July 1995, General Nicolai's deputy chief of staff,

 5     Colonel Coiffet, was sent to Tuzla to report directly back to BiH Command

 6     about the situation of the refugees arriving from Srebrenica.  The

 7     witness accompanied Coiffet to Tuzla to interpret, and spent three days

 8     there and in Kladanj.  The refugees were in pitiful condition, completely

 9     drained physically and emotionally, and said that they did not have their

10     menfolk with them.  He was struck by the fact that there were only women

11     and elderly men and young children, but no males of teenage or above.

12             A few days later, he accompanied General Nicolai to Bratunac for

13     the withdrawal of DutchBat from the enclave.  Some time after that, he

14     was awoken in the night and told that he would be part of a small group

15     heading to Zepa to witness the evacuation of civilians from that enclave.

16     He was to join two Joint Commission officers (JCOs) as well as

17     Civil Affairs officers Ed Joseph and Viktor Bezruchenko to monitor the

18     evacuation to ensure that it went differently from in Srebrenica.  By

19     this time, they were receiving consistent reports that a massacre or

20     atrocity of some sort had occurred.  The JCOs were to use sophisticated

21     communications equipment to brief General Smith's military assistant,

22     Colonel Jim Baxter, who would, in turn, brief General Smith.  The group

23     also included a French colonel named Jermaine and his interpreter, as

24     well as a Ukrainian captain, a liaison officer based in Sarajevo.

25             When the group arrived the same day at OP 2 at the top of the

Page 4860

 1     hill in Zepa, Generals Mladic and Tolimir, whom the witness had

 2     previously met in his role as liaison officer, were there.  The witness's

 3     group and the ICRC representatives got permission to go down into the

 4     village from Mladic, who was in control of what was happening in Zepa.

 5     The witness asked Mladic if he could accompany Colonel Jermaine into the

 6     village, so he, Jermaine, Joseph, Bezruchenko, and the ICRC

 7     representatives went down.

 8             When they reached the center of Zepa, which was an open main

 9     square with a fountain in it and a mosque and houses around it -- I beg

10     your pardon.  They reached the center of Zepa, which was an open main

11     square with a fountain in it and a mosque and houses around it.  The

12     mosque's minaret and some of the houses had signs of recent shelling on

13     them, and there were shell craters on the ground.  They made their way to

14     the Ukrainian base, in front of which there were between 50 and 80

15     civilians gathered.  A civilian doctor named Benjamin was occupied with

16     curing the civilians and treating some injured men.  The hodja associated

17     with the Zepa mosque, a young man, clearly in no way a fighting man, was

18     assisting in putting together lists of people.  The Bosnian Commander

19     Avdo Palic was also there and stated that they hoped they would be

20     treated humanely, which the witness understood to mean unlike the menfolk

21     from Srebrenica.  He does not remember seeing any males from teenage up

22     to age 50.

23             As for the ICRC, though the witness has the highest regard for it

24     as an organisation, this was one of the few occasions when he was

25     frustrated with their attitude.  It was obvious that the population was

Page 4861

 1     going to get moved out of Zepa and that there was very little they could

 2     do other than list everyone as they boarded the vehicles to make sure

 3     everyone who got on got off, but the ICRC representative flatly refused

 4     because she did not want to be involved in ethnic cleansing.  It seemed

 5     to the witness that that was avoiding the issue and that things were

 6     going to happen, and since there was something they could do to make it

 7     better, then why not do it.  The ICRC had virtually no further part to

 8     play in Zepa, itself, but said they were going to concentrate their

 9     efforts in Kladanj and Tuzla.

10             General Tolimir gave permission to move out the injured men, some

11     of whom had participated in the fighting, who were then transported in

12     Ukrainian APCs and accompanied by Dr. Benjamin.

13             The witness then returned to OP 2 in the afternoon and saw that

14     haystacks, farm buildings and homes were being set on fire up the flanks

15     of the valley.  Later that afternoon, he returned to the village with the

16     JCOs and saw that the number of people waiting to leave, consisting

17     mostly of women and young children and some old men, had increased

18     significantly.  By evening, the first buses and trucks were sent down

19     into the village, and approximately 20 vehicles of people from the square

20     left in them.  The vehicles had been arranged by the VRS.

21             The witness spoke to some of the civilians, who were drained and

22     wanted to leave Zepa without question.  On a couple of occasions, when it

23     looked as though the last truck of the day had come but then another

24     vehicle arrived, there was a mad rush of people to get on, which was a

25     clear indication that people wanted to leave.  The witness was in Grozny

Page 4862

 1     in December 1999 and South Lebanon in 2006, and what struck him as

 2     different between Zepa and those places is that in the first two, while

 3     war always displaces people, the people try to leave at what they judge

 4     is the last safe moment to get out.  In Grozny and South Lebanon, the

 5     last safe moment was before the place was actually captured.  In Zepa,

 6     the last safe moment to the population appeared to be the moment that the

 7     fighting had actually stopped and the VRS were poised to enter the

 8     village.  He is also fairly sure that the population had received

 9     information about what had happened to the military-aged men of

10     Srebrenica.

11             The war in Bosnia was a particularly brutal civil war, and what

12     happened in Zepa has to be viewed within that wider context, taking into

13     account it happened pretty much towards the end of it.  On all sides,

14     there was an immense brutality, and that was well known to the civilian

15     population across the country.  What sets the fear which the civilian

16     population in Zepa felt slightly apart, but probably not unusual within

17     the Bosnian context, is that it was fear of what happened once the

18     fighting stopped rather than fear of the fighting itself.

19             The next day, there were more people in the village, as quite a

20     lot more had come in overnight.  There was another incident of panic when

21     some wounded were moved out in APCs and the population thought that that

22     meant that the UN was pulling out, which caused the civilians to sit in

23     the road and block the exit from Zepa.  The witness tried to convince the

24     people that the UN was going to remain there, and they also called up to

25     Mladic to send down some more vehicles to show the population that the

Page 4863

 1     APCs were not the last evacuation.  After the first day when the first

 2     group was taken out of the enclave, there were two full days in which

 3     approximately 4.000 people were evacuated.  And then on the fourth day,

 4     there were approximately 400 people who left who were moved out.

 5             On this last day of the transportations, the witness saw

 6     General Tolimir in the village with a bottle of alcohol, slightly under

 7     the influence.  Tolimir agreed that another group of injured men could

 8     leave, but the witness learned later that they were pulled off the

 9     vehicles in Rogatica.  On that same day, the hodja was with the very last

10     group of people leaving Zepa, but Tolimir identified him and said that

11     because he was of military age, he could not leave with the women and

12     children, and was taken off.  The Civil Affairs officers protested to

13     Tolimir, who said that the hodja could not leave.

14             After it was clear the last civilians had been removed, the VRS

15     soldiers entered the village, itself, and began looting and setting

16     houses in the village on fire, which continued and moved outwards from

17     the village for the rest of the time he was in Zepa.

18             Rogatica Brigade officer Kusic appeared to be the senior officer

19     on the ground at that point and participated in the looting, as vehicles

20     laden with appliances, furniture and cattle were driven up the road out

21     of Zepa.  The Ukrainian captain -- I beg your pardon.  During this time,

22     the UNPROFOR soldiers were not permitted to leave the area of the base in

23     the village.  And the witness was in Zepa from 25 July through 2 August

24     1995.

25             The Ukrainian captain who was part of the witness's group told

Page 4864

 1     him that shortly after the UNPROFOR representatives left OP 2, the mosque

 2     was blown up.  When the witness raised this issue with Colonel Indjic,

 3     Indjic gave the flippant reply that it was destroyed because it looked

 4     like a missile from aerial photography.

 5             Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender Exhibits P742 --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir -- Mr. Thayer, excuse me, I don't

 7     think that this was a short summary.  It was a very long summary, and

 8     especially the part from page 68, line 16, until page 69, line 9.  It

 9     appears not to be reflecting the evidence of this witness in relation to

10     the events in Zepa.

11             MR. THAYER:  Oh, that's -- Mr. President, that most certainly is

12     the witness's testimony.  I just didn't preface it with such, but it is

13     all the witness's testimony related to the events.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Especially the formulation of page 69, line 2 to

15     9.  There's no indication that this was the evidence and what the witness

16     saw on the ground.  I just want to mention that.  We shouldn't discuss it

17     any further, but we would appreciate to have short summaries so that we

18     know what it is about.

19             MR. THAYER:  Understood, Mr. President.  I can assure the Court

20     that everything in that summary is based, chapter and verse, and

21     verbatim, frankly, from the witness's testimony.  There is no input, no

22     editorialising.  Understood, it was too long for the Trial Chamber.  But

23     just so the Trial Chamber knows, it does not include anything from the

24     OTP.  It is purely his testimony.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was not my concern, Mr. Thayer.  It is only

Page 4865

 1     the question if that is -- if it is appropriate to have that as part of

 2     the summary read out in the court.

 3             Please carry on.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Sir -- well, first let me tender the associated

 5     exhibits, P742 to P754.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In relation to that, I have to correct my words

 7     at page 61, line 3.  It is recorded that I said the number "6584" of the

 8     65 ter list.  It should be "6184."  But, Mr. Thayer, you are now

 9     tendering some of the exhibits beyond that number.  Are they really part

10     of the 65 ter exhibit list?

11             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, they are not on the 65 ter list.

12     They were all part of the witness's 92 ter package, which has been

13     provisionally admitted, and they are all associated exhibits.  But given

14     the Trial Chamber's instruction, I'll -- it will either -- I'll liaise

15     with the Court Officers to see if it's a written motion or oral motion,

16     and in what form.  But, yes, there are a number of these associated

17     exhibits that were part of the 92 ter package and which were admitted,

18     but which were not added to the 65 ter list before we filed it.  So those

19     do fall into the category that the Trial Chamber noted earlier.  So let

20     me --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have heard the concern of the

22     Chamber and the comments of Mr. Thayer.  Do you oppose the addition of

23     these documents to the 65 ter list?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we agree with your

25     questions put to the Prosecution, and it is our opinion that we should

Page 4866

 1     really comply with whatever ruling you make on which documents can be

 2     admitted or not.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I noticed that you don't object to the addition

 4     of these documents which are not yet part of the 65 ter exhibit list.

 5     And if that is the case, leave is granted for the Prosecution.  It's not

 6     necessary to file any motion in respect of that.  It is granted, and now

 7     it is part of the 65 ter list.

 8             And all these documents with the given numbers are received as

 9     exhibits.

10             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Sir, just --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In addition to that, Mr. Thayer, three documents

15     don't have a translation yet.  These are P748, P749 and P753.  They will

16     be marked for identification, pending translation.

17             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With those procedural matters, you should carry

19     on with your questioning.

20             MR. THAYER:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Just a couple of questions for you, sir.

22             In 2007, when you testified last, you were based in Afghanistan

23     with the Halo Trust.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber, just briefly, what

24     are you doing now?

25        A.   I left Afghanistan at the beginning of June, and I'm now

Page 4867

 1     assisting Halo Trust with setting up a programme in Zimbabwe.

 2        Q.   And, again, just briefly, when you say "setting up a programme,"

 3     what does that entail?  What kind of a programme is it?

 4        A.   We're looking at starting a de-mining programme, so this is the

 5     very beginning of that process.  So it involves liaising with senior

 6     officers in the Zimbabwe Army, the Zimbabwe government, trying to find

 7     donor money, so dealing with various embassies in town, and obviously

 8     getting out into the field to confirm the extent of the problem and its

 9     effect on the population.

10        Q.   Okay.  I just want to turn to your prior testimony for a couple

11     of quick questions.

12             You testified that you made the assessment that the VRS was a

13     professional army.  Can you briefly share with the Trial Chamber some

14     examples of the basis for that assessment that you made?

15        A.   I think part of it has to go back to looking at what were the

16     antecedents of the VRS, and that was obviously the Yugoslav National

17     Army, which was definitely a professional army with a professional

18     officer corps.  Probably, it was established largely for defence of

19     Yugoslavia rather than as an attacking force, but it was based around

20     various units in charge of a particular section of territory, with a

21     degree of local command and the ability from headquarters to detach

22     senior commanders to oversee particular incidents or battles.

23             Likewise, there was conscription in the former Yugoslavia, which

24     meant that most men of a certain age had a degree of military training,

25     and through that military training, were used to command structures,

Page 4868

 1     discipline, weapon handling, and various other basic fundamentals of

 2     military life.

 3             On the break-up of Yugoslavia, and looking at Bosnia in

 4     particular, I think it's fair to say that the VRS benefitted most in

 5     terms of the highest number of professional officers and also the

 6     greatest quantity of equipment in the form of heavy weaponry, tanks,

 7     artillery, et cetera.

 8             Looking at the performance on the ground, it's important to note

 9     that we weren't talking about small groups of troops fighting, without

10     much unified command.  Within Bosnia, we actually saw the sort of

11     deployment and employment of what we would call an all-arms battle; i.e.,

12     it wasn't just people with small arms, but a far greater degree of

13     tactical ability was required.  And, thus, we saw -- combined with

14     infantry units, we saw tanks providing direct fire, artillery and mortars

15     providing indirect fire, logistics, medical backup, all sorts of various

16     other things which were well co-ordinated together, which gives us an

17     indication that it was a professional force with a clear command and

18     control, and that orders passed from the top were actually implemented

19     lower down to ensure that all these various all-arms elements functioned

20     together as an effective force, which clearly it did.

21             I guess it's also worth looking at the spread of operations from

22     across from Banja Luka, in the west, to Gorazde, in the east, and again

23     it's an indication that the command structure of the VRS was able to, you

24     know, manage itself effectively over such a wide area.  So I think

25     there's little doubt that it was a professional force.

Page 4869

 1        Q.   Now, you just referred to tanks providing direct fire.  You

 2     testified in the Popovic trial about learning that a JCO, a Joint

 3     Commission officer, had come under direct VRS tank fire during the VRS

 4     attack on Srebrenica.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you came across

 5     that particular piece of information?

 6        A.   Within the residency in Sarajevo, i.e., the BiH Command, the JCO

 7     operations room was literally just across a small sort of wooden

 8     plank-way from my office, and I happened to be in the area and was in a

 9     position to hear the conversation being conducted by radio between the

10     JCO team on the ground and the JCO commander, and I think the air

11     operations commander was also there in the room in Sarajevo, so I heard

12     it directly on the radio.

13        Q.   And just tell the Trial Chamber, what exactly do you recall

14     hearing during this conversation?  What was going on that you overheard?

15        A.   This particular JCO group had been extracted from the main

16     command group of the Dutch Battalion in Srebrenica and was operating at

17     some remove from the town, itself.  They had come under direct tank fire

18     onto their bunker.  And at the time I caught the conversation, this was

19     going on, and they were trying to call in air support for a -- or close

20     air support to neutralise the tank that was firing on their position.

21     They were informed that there would be some delay until the aircraft

22     arrived.  When the aircraft came, I think they missed on the first pass,

23     but hit the tank on the second pass, which removed the immediate threat

24     to that particular team.

25             It was also quite interesting:  There was frustration in the air

Page 4870

 1     operations command, because I think -- I could hear one side of the

 2     conversation, but I understood that simultaneous to this particular

 3     engagement, there was a threat to DutchBat, I think coming from

 4     General Mladic, saying, If you don't call off your aircraft, I'm going to

 5     attack your Dutch Battalion.  And so we had one lot of people speaking to

 6     their officer commanding, saying, Please stop these aircraft, and you had

 7     another man on the ground saying, Bring them on, I need aircraft.  And

 8     they were saying, Please, can someone step in here and tell me what's

 9     going on?  I'm getting two conflicting messages.  But once the tank had

10     been neutralised, this particular group withdrew to B Company, Dutch B

11     company, and then back to the main body.

12        Q.   And do you recall hearing any particular code-name being employed

13     by the JCOs [indiscernible]?

14        A.   I think the -- I think the call sign of that particular group was

15     "Windmill 3."

16        Q.   Okay.  Turning your attention to your time in Zepa, you testified

17     about your experience with the ICRC representative who was on the ground

18     in Zepa while you were there.  Do you have any recollection of the UNHCR

19     having any presence during that time?

20        A.   No, I don't.  I'm confident that when we went down, the ICRC were

21     there, and the only two representatives of -- to the UN civil side was

22     Ed Joseph and Viktor Bezruchenko, both of whom, I believe, were working

23     for UN Civil Affairs, not for UNHCR.  And I have no recollection of UNHCR

24     being there.

25             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions at this

Page 4871

 1     time.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer.

 3             Witness, now you know the other party, the accused, has the right

 4     to cross-examine you.

 5             Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wish the witness a

 7     pleasant stay in The Hague, and I wish to greet him, and also wish him a

 8     safe trip back home or wherever he's going.  And I will have a few

 9     questions for him.

10             Before that, I would ask the Technical Service to pull up the

11     statement of this witness, 1D278.

12             Thank you.  Could we see page 2 of this statement.

13             We have it in both English and Serbian.

14             My next question will deal with the first paragraph.  You can

15     read it or consult it, and then I will follow it up with a question.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] You mentioned how, in 1991 and 1992, you

18     attended a course for officers, where you were taught Serbo-Croatian.

19     How much time did you spend in that training, being trained in

20     Serbo-Croatian, and how long did the officers course take?

21        A.   The Serbo-Croat course, itself, if I recall, was three to four

22     months of full-time instruction.  And the officers course, I presume

23     you're talking about the Sandhurst course, I did the last graduates'

24     course, which was seven months.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 4872

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Tell us, please, after the seven months, did you become a

 4     professional soldier of the British Army, and were you promoted to any

 5     officer rank?  And if so, which?

 6        A.   On passing out of Sandhurst, I was at a rank of second

 7     lieutenant.  And immediately following the Sandhurst course, I went on to

 8     additional special infantry training, which lasted for another four

 9     months, I guess, and then I did some service in battalion before

10     volunteering for the language course subsequently.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Were you assigned the rank based on the course alone

12     or was it because of your knowledge expertise?  I believe I forgot to

13     mention that in my question.

14        A.   The second lieutenant rank follows automatically on completion of

15     the course at Sandhurst.  There's obviously a selection to get to

16     Sandhurst in the first place, but once you pass out of that, everyone who

17     passes out is at that rank.

18        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is this:  Before your arrival in

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina, as you refer to it in your statement, did you

20     receive any other instruction about the history of the conflict in the

21     area and the British policy vis-a-vis that region, that part of the

22     world?

23        A.   On the language course, there was a British Army officer who had

24     spent some time in the former Yugoslavia, so he gave us some detail on

25     the history.  Obviously, at the time, we were reading newspapers avidly,

Page 4873

 1     as we knew that was the part of the world to which we were going.  Right

 2     now, I don't remember receiving any specific instruction on what was

 3     British policy, specifically, to it.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Which one did you complete first, the officers course

 5     or the language course?

 6        A.   The officers course finished quite some time before that, and the

 7     language course came up as a volunteer option open to anybody who

 8     applied, essentially.

 9        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that, as it wasn't sufficiently

10     explained in the statement.

11             In the second paragraph, page 2 in the Serbian, the second

12     paragraph, line 1, you say:

13             "I arrived in April 1995 and was attached to the Command Staff

14     for Bosnia-Herzegovina."

15             Earlier, in the first paragraph, it is mentioned that you arrived

16     in Bosnia in 1993 and 1994.  Is this correct?  Is it accurately

17     reflected?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I served two separate tours in Bosnia.

19     Following the first language course, I deployed to Gornji Vakuf and spent

20     my entire tour based in and around Gornji Vakuf.  I then went back to the

21     United Kingdom, spent some time in Northern Ireland, did a further

22     language course, and came out to Bosnia a second time.  I believe I flew

23     out on the 1st of April and probably got up to Sarajevo on the 2nd or

24     3rd.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In the course of examination-in-chief, you shared

Page 4874

 1     your impressions of the armies you encountered and their level of

 2     professionalism.  Did you have any prior knowledge about military

 3     strategy and tactics?  Did you receive that training during the seven

 4     months of the officers course?

 5        A.   Just to clarify the question, of British tactics or Yugoslav

 6     tactics?

 7        Q.   Thank you.  The tactics of the armed forces in the area where you

 8     were sent to.

 9        A.   I'm assuming by that you mean of Bosnia, former Yugoslavia.  How

10     much of that was a formal lecture and how much of that was just done in

11     general discussion, I don't recall.  What I would say is that prior --

12     particularly what I don't recall is how much of that we got prior to the

13     first deployment.  Prior to my second deployment, I had also looked at

14     going out as a UN military observer, and actually begun the UN military

15     observers course, which covered that in more detail.  It was while I was

16     on that course that I got the offer to work out of General Smith's

17     headquarters and, accordingly, accepted that second job.  So, yes, I

18     received some instruction.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, you say that between November 1993

20     and May 1994, you were in Vakuf.  What was your position there, what was

21     your job?

22        A.   My initial deployment was purely as a colloquial language

23     speaker, and as part of that I was attached to one of the liaison

24     officers who was working at that stage particularly from Gornji Vakuf,

25     speaking to the BiH Command in Gornji Vakuf and in Bugojno.  It then

Page 4875

 1     happened that the liaison officer, himself, had a recurrence of malaria

 2     and could not return to theatre, so I took over the role of liaison

 3     officer, spending most of my time then between Gornji Vakuf, Bugojno,

 4     once or twice to Donji Vakuf, and a couple of times towards Prozor, but I

 5     rarely got beyond that particular area.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Given that you worked exclusively in the area where

 7     there were forces of the HVO and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you

 8     have any insight into the tactics and professionalism of the Army of the

 9     RS?

10        A.   At first hand, very little.  I believe that there were VRS troops

11     across at Gornji Vakuf, which I mentioned.  I do remember picking our way

12     across an anti-tank minefield to their position.  But at first hand,

13     beyond that, no, I didn't witness them in action.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.  Mr. Gajic, I saw you on your feet.

15             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think we have an

16     error in interpretation.  Mr. Tolimir said "the strategy and

17     professionalism," whereas in the transcript we have reflected "the

18     tactics and professionalism."

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

20             Mr. Tolimir, carry on.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   On page 2, in paragraph 2, in line 4, you say that you were a

24     liaison officer and that you had contact with Mr. Zametica, whereas in

25     the second line of the same paragraph, you say that you were also

Page 4876

 1     supposed to liaise with Lukavica.  Which of your duties prevailed, was

 2     more important, the one that had to do with political representatives or

 3     the Sarajevo Corps?

 4        A.   To a large extent, that depended on where I was tasked to go by

 5     General Smith.  We would have liked probably more contact with both

 6     sides, but the reality was that post -- probably late May 1995, it became

 7     virtually impossible to get all the way across to Pale.  So from that

 8     date, which coincided with the air-strikes on the ammunition depots in

 9     Pale, it was pretty much impossible to get across and see Zametica face

10     to face.  Therefore, the reality was I would have spent more time talking

11     to Colonel Indjic in Lukavica.  But that was the way things panned out on

12     the ground.  Had things been different, definitely I would have been

13     trying to speak to both parties as much as possible.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I ask you this because in your statement, page 2,

15     paragraph 2, line 4, you say -- regarding Mr. Zametica, you say that you

16     were in regular contact, whereas Mr. Indjic was a liaison officer in the

17     barracks:

18             "He arranged meetings with Mladic and also took any complaints

19     that we may have had."

20             Can you tell us what had more priority, that you were in standing

21     contact with Mr. Zametica or with Mr. Indjic?

22        A.   If the message that I was meant to be sending was aimed at

23     Dr. Karadzic, then the first attempt would be to do that along civilian

24     lines, and hence Mr. Zametica.  If the message dealt with military

25     matters primarily, then we would try and go through -- if we couldn't get

Page 4877

 1     directly to General Mladic or yourself, we would be likely to go through

 2     Colonel Indjic.  However, if one or other of those lines of communication

 3     failed, we would certainly try the other one, and hence I'm quite sure

 4     there would have been precedent for us trying to pass a message --

 5     definitely there was precedence to try and pass the message to the

 6     civilian [Realtime transcript read in error "Muslim"] side by working

 7     through Colonel Indjic.  And I don't remember a specific example, but it

 8     wouldn't have surprised me if we tried to pass a message to the military

 9     by working through Zametica.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Perhaps there was a misunderstanding.  Did you send

11     any messages to the Muslim side?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  I'm afraid we didn't

13     understand Mr. Tolimir's question.  Could it please be repeated.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters ask you to repeat

15     your question.  It was not heard properly.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will repeat.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Did you send any messages to the Muslim side, through Indjic,

19     ever, or was this mistranslated?  Perhaps you thought the Serb side,

20     whereas it seems to have -- whereas it seems to have been recorded as you

21     saying it was the Muslim side.

22        A.   No, it should have -- what I said related to passing messages to

23     the Serb side.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think we are at the end of today's

25     hearing.  We have to continue next week.  It's the last hearing day of

Page 4878

 1     this week.

 2             Sir, that means you have to come back to the court next week on

 3     Monday, in the afternoon, I assume.  Yes, Monday, in the afternoon, 2.15.

 4             You should be reminded not to contact either party about the

 5     content of your testimony.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We adjourn and resume on Monday.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of

11                           September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.