Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6655

 1                           Thursday, 21 October 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody.  I was told that you,

 6     Mr. McCloskey, good morning, have -- want to raise some matters.  Please

 7     do that.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,

 9     everyone.  Yes, I just wanted to remind the Court of a meeting we all

10     had, the parties all had, not long ago, a few days ago, where I promised

11     to provide everyone with some paper indicating the witnesses that would

12     be called and estimates on remaining time.  That's almost ready.  As soon

13     as we can give Ms. Stewart a few minutes out of court, she will just

14     check a few of our numbers and get that out today.

15             Just very briefly I can tell you thus far we have had 78 trial

16     days and we've put on 49 witnesses.  We have 87 witnesses to go:  25 of

17     those are full viva voce; 21, 92 ter; 41, basically, 92 bis with cross,

18     so the same as 92 ter.  And we have endeavoured to revise our own

19     estimates based on what we see ourselves doing with - especially with

20     these 92 ter witnesses - anticipating some of your questions and what we

21     have learned about General Tolimir's time that he has taken, and I think

22     I would guess I'm speaking for everyone that all parties have appreciated

23     the time you've allowed us to do this work and to put on our witnesses,

24     including, even, re-cross, which in my system that I barely remember now

25     is something that is appropriate in some circumstances, like you have

Page 6656

 1     found.  So that's much appreciated.

 2             Though that does, when you start getting realistic, does tend to,

 3     well, certainly takes it beyond my initial thoughtful idea of June, which

 4     was even before the 92 bis, before I'd factored in the 92 bis ruling.

 5     The other thing to point out is, we are really coming to some of the most

 6     significant witnesses, and these will be VRS witnesses, Serbian MUP

 7     witnesses, high-level people that we can now see that the General will

 8     probably take a fair amount of time with putting on his case and that you

 9     will be, of course, very interested in.

10             And so it now looks more like beyond the summer break of 2011,

11     and Mr. Thayer is thinking it's more like October or November.  But I

12     want you to see those figures, see the remaining witnesses, and if

13     then -- of course, we're open for any rulings, discussions, debates,

14     criticisms on those, but we did our best to be more realistic based on

15     what we're seeing happen in court.

16             And I think our -- thus far, our 78 -- well, the trial days we've

17     put in has -- have -- I don't think anyone's wasted any time.  I think

18     they've been a good pace.  I think anyone watching should have felt that.

19     Of course, early on we couldn't put in four days a week four

20     understandable reasons.  Now we're doing four days a week, and so we're

21     basing that on a four-day-a-week with the vacations and the summer breaks

22     and everything involved, so ...

23             And one last comment on these significant VRS and Serb MUP

24     witnesses based on some of the questions the other day, it has always

25     been the case in this trial, and actually in many other trials, that many

Page 6657

 1     of these witnesses we put on to you and they will not be telling the

 2     whole story.  They will be -- have involved in the events themselves,

 3     they will not be telling you the whole story, and in many cases they will

 4     be outright lying to you.  That is understood by us, and we will be

 5     questioning them on direct and redirect, and we believe that you will be

 6     able to sort out the differences between the truth and the lie and the

 7     significant points and look to the corroboration, but it will be a --

 8     well, an exciting and difficult job, as it always is, but that's the

 9     expectation we have for many of those witnesses, so ...

10             And having said that, we're ready for Ms. Gallagher who will

11     continue going through the trial video and our stills book in what I know

12     will make much more sense as I think even the witness testimony

13     yesterday, as we heard the descriptions of the territory that I think

14     must have sounded very familiar to you.

15             So we're ready to go with that.  But as a reminder, what she is

16     going over is the material that has been originally developed for this

17     case, video material and still-book material.  We have since obtained

18     some new material, so when she's done with this first chapter, she will

19     come back again for chapter 2 of some more video - not a whole lot more,

20     but some more video - some of which you've seen, some of which you've not

21     seen, to give you the final chapter of video.  But when she's done with

22     this first segment, we'll be able to give you DVDs of these -- of the

23     video -- well, it should be in evidence, I hope, at that point, so we'll

24     be able to give you the DVDs so everybody has what has been shown fully,

25     so it's -- so you have easy access to it.

Page 6658

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey, indeed.  It's

 2     a very difficult situation in a certain way disappointing that we have to

 3     go for such a long time, your time estimation.  We have to consider the

 4     situation, and, of course, we have to ensure that we will have a fair but

 5     also an expeditious trial.  And we have to discuss, for instance, if we

 6     could sit five days a week, if we could have longer sitting times per

 7     day, if we reduce the time available for the parties.  All these matters

 8     or measures should be taken into account by the Chamber and the parties.

 9     But I don't want to comment on that now because we have to consider your

10     information you were able to give us.

11             At this point in time, I would like to ask Mr. Tolimir if he has

12     some comments on that and if you could perhaps indicate if there will be

13     a Defence case, if you intend to call witnesses, Defence witnesses, and

14     if so, perhaps how many.  It's not necessary that you give us this

15     information now, but you will understand that we need a kind of

16     estimation about the length of the whole trial.  Is it possible for you

17     to give us some additional information?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no comments with

19     regard to what Mr. McCloskey has just stated.  I would like to thank you

20     for the organisation and the efforts in helping him present his case so

21     far.  I will be able to give you the number of witnesses and my estimate

22     only when I am fully aware what the Prosecution has and what they say.

23     We are not going to take witnesses just to take witnesses, but for the

24     facts and for the events.  I wouldn't be able to inform you about the

25     number of witnesses now.  In any case, we will need much less time than

Page 6659

 1     the Prosecutor, twice as little as the Prosecutor I would say.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  There's no need for further

 4     discussion of this.  We will take all information into account.

 5             The witness should be brought in, please.

 6             Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And Ms. Stewart will be running the trial video

 8     which is P991.  The transcript is P1008.  And the stills that she'll be

 9     going over that are on e-court are from Exhibit P624, and I have the

10     e-court page numbers for you when we get to those.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, Ms. Gallagher.  Please sit down.

13     Welcome to the courtroom again.  We are still in the phase of

14     examination-in-chief, and I would like to remind you that the affirmation

15     to tell the truth you made at the beginning of your testimony still

16     applies.

17             Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Right.  And if it helps, we finished up on the

19     29th of September, and we had played up to 14.53.2 on the trial video.

20     And now we're starting at a place called Potocari, 11 July, Dutch

21     Battalion soldier footage.

22                           WITNESS:  ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]

23                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:  [Continued]

24        Q.   Can you tell us, Ms. Gallagher - good morning - what that is?

25        A.   Good morning.  It's -- you'll see footage of refugees from

Page 6660

 1     Srebrenica being brought in on trucks, massive groups of people loaded

 2     onto the trucks, being driven in - and they're UN trucks - being driven

 3     in to the UN base in Potocari.

 4        Q.   And where did we get that footage?

 5        A.   It's footage that we got from Antelope Productions, and that was

 6     the independent production company that made a documentary called "A Cry

 7     From the Grave."  And this footage they received from a DutchBat warrant

 8     officer who had done the videotaping in Potocari at the time.

 9        Q.   Did they give us his name?

10        A.   His same a Wim Dijkema.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And I think we can just play that --

12     play that footage.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   And, Ms. Gallagher, we're at 0016.36.9.  I don't want to ask you

16     anything particular about this shot except that can you tell us whether

17     or not this footage we're seeing from the Dutch soldier, was this edited

18     by the Prosecution to -- or are we getting all the video that the Dutch

19     soldier took?

20        A.   Pertaining to the people coming in to -- the women and children,

21     elderly and sick being brought into Potocari, I am aware that this is the

22     full footage of this particular section.

23        Q.   All right.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  We're now at 18.36.5.

Page 6661

 1        Q.   Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought there had been some editing of

 2     that Potocari footage, can you -- do you recall that?

 3        A.   I mean, I do -- you do notice that there's -- there's quite a bit

 4     of edits.  I think some of that may be from the videotaper stopping the

 5     footage at the time.  I would have to actually -- would want to confirm

 6     how much of or if any of that was editing by Marta Fracassetti for the

 7     purposes of the trial video.  My recollection is as most of what was in

 8     the footage of coming into Potocari was in here, but I would want to

 9     double-check that for you, because I do see a fair number of edits.

10        Q.   Okay.  And as the Court knows, you'll be back for part two of

11     this for the new video that is going to go into the trial video and new

12     still book, so we'll mark that down as a check.

13             All right.  Now we're at, what is entitled on the trial video,

14     "Mladic and Others Approach and Enter Srebrenica."

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you go on with this, Judge Nyambe has a

16     question.

17             Yes.

18             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.  Just now in answer to Mr. McCloskey's

19     question, you've said "because I do see a fair number of edits."  How are

20     you able to identify where the footage is edited or not?

21             THE WITNESS:  When you watch it you'll see a jump from one scene

22     to the next scene, it will be very, very quick but you can see that it's

23     not being played all throughout in its entirety.  It will move to, let's

24     say, another viewpoint of the people coming off the trucks.  So watching

25     it closely, you will see that there's a slight jump.  Sometimes what's

Page 6662

 1     difficult to tell is that -- is that -- the jump of the videographer

 2     who's just stopped and the videotape has gone and moved and then

 3     proceeded to videotape more, or if it's an edit from our editor here,

 4     putting footage together and taking some of -- you know, taking some of

 5     it out and editing with other footage.

 6             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   All right.  We see title of this next segment, we see:  "Antelope

10     Reuters SRT footage."  And you've told us about Antelope Productions, the

11     people that did "Cry From the Grave."  We know that Reuters is a news

12     agency.  And SRT, can you remind us what that is?

13        A.   It's "Srpska Radio Television."

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's -- let's play that.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Now, in the -- can we go to, in P6 - there

17     we go - P624, e-court page 9.  All right.  I think if we can blow that up

18     a little bit, I can't -- I don't know about anybody else, but I'm having

19     a hard time reading that.  Yes.

20        Q.   So can you just go over the numbers, just to remind us who these

21     folks are?

22        A.   So starting with number 1 is the body-guard of

23     General Ratko Mladic, who we do know his identity now, it's

24     Branislav Puhalo; number 2 is General Radislav Krstic, chief of staff of

25     the Drina Corps; three is General Ratko Mladic, commander of the VRS; and

Page 6663

 1     four is Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, commander of the Zvornik Brigade.

 2        Q.   All right.  And we soon see -- and we've seen a little bit of a

 3     person with a blue helmet, and we'll see that.  Has the investigation

 4     come to any kind of conclusion on whether that person with a blue helmet

 5     was a DutchBat or VRS?

 6        A.   Yes.  It is not a DutchBat member.  It's a VRS soldier.  And

 7     you'll see that General Mladic will ask him to put on the blue helmet and

 8     get into the tank to look like they are helping UNPROFOR at this time.

 9        Q.   So how do you know it's VRS?  Or why do you think that?

10        A.   In, actually, a statement by Drazan Ademovic, he identifies who

11     several of the people are, the 10th Sabotage Unit members.  And also you

12     will hear General Mladic speaking to him in B/C/S.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's just continue to play the --

14     the video.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Let me ask, I don't see a blue helmet.

16     Perhaps --

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, that was my preview of the coming

18     attraction.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Oh, so --

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We -- we saw a bit of it, but you couldn't see it

21     very well.  But it should be the next few seconds, if I'm --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY: -- if I'm correct.  That was just to get you ready

24     for something.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

Page 6664

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we're starting at 20.33.0.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we are at 21.54.1.

 4        Q.   Can you just point out if you see the blue helmet?

 5        A.   You see the person with the blue helmet up top of the APC.

 6        Q.   And did we see him just -- just prior to this when Mladic said

 7     something like, "Show how we're helping"?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Thank you.  We can continue.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  At 23.16.2.

13        Q.   Can you just remind us where the investigation believes this is

14     happening, where they're coming down this little road, just roughly?

15        A.   Sure.  It's the approach into Srebrenica.  And, actually,

16     Vinko Pandurevic had viewed this footage when he testified in

17     January 2009 and pointed out he believed this to be the Bojna area, which

18     is south of Srebrenica.

19        Q.   Roughly how many kilometres?

20        A.   I would guess around 5, maybe a little bit less.  Less than

21     5 possibly.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Thank you.  We can -- let's continue.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  We are at 24.08.9.

25        Q.   They've just, we've seen, come into an area of vehicles and

Page 6665

 1     buildings.  Can you tell us roughly where this is?

 2        A.   This is the southern part of Srebrenica.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  We're at 25.04.3.  Can we go to page --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone, please.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  25.04.3.  We're at page 11 in the e-court stills

 8     book.

 9        Q.   And we see, again, number 1 is Radislav Krstic, who I think we're

10     all beginning to recognise.

11             How about number -- number 2?

12        A.   Number 2, as you see, is Velimir Popovic, aka Vela, and also

13     number 3; they're both members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.  And, if

14     I can go ahead, number 3 is Stanko Savanovic, also a member of the

15     10th Sabotage.

16        Q.   And how do we know that?

17        A.   They were both identified by Drazen Erdemovic, both in the

18     Popovic trial and also recently in the Perisic trial.

19        Q.   Okay.  And it says "down-town Srebrenica, 11 July"; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  This is number 14 in the stills book, at

25     25.43.9.

Page 6666

 1        Q.   And, again, I'm sure we recognise General Mladic, and that's

 2     number 2.  And number 1 is Milenko Zivanovic; is that correct?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   And how do you know that?

 5        A.   We know that through the course of the investigation.  He is a

 6     familiar face, just like General Krstic, General Mladic.  We've seen him

 7     on multiple videos, multiple interviews, as you'll see in the course of

 8     the rest of the video.  And he's -- and I think he may have originally

 9     been identified by investigator Jean-Rene Ruez earlier on in earlier

10     trials.

11        Q.   And is he referred to in some nickname that you recall in

12     these -- in this video and other places?

13        A.   Zile.

14        Q.   That's Z-i-l-e?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Okay.  And you might need to slow your speech a little bit, if

17     you can.  I imagine that -- and I'll try to delay a bit myself.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue to play the

19     video.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now could we go to page -- 25.46.5, at page 12.

22        Q.   Now, we can see that it says here:  "General Mladic and Members

23     of the Drina Wolves of the Zvornik Brigade."  And how were you able --

24     the team able to identify them as -- and who, as Drina Wolves?

25        A.   You'll see the two men with the arm patches and the red ribbons

Page 6667

 1     on their arms, those are two Drina Wolves members.  We don't know who

 2     they are specifically, but the arm patch is very specific to the

 3     Drina Wolves unit.  And in the prior footage, you saw that Legenda,

 4     Milan Jolovic, was the commander of the Drina Wolves.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's continue.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   Here at 27.57.0, just before that we heard General Mladic speak

 9     to Krle, K-r-l-e.  Who is that?

10        A.   That's the nickname for General Krstic.

11        Q.   And how do you know that?

12        A.   You'll also see in much -- in much footage him refer to him as

13     Krle, and other footage you'll see him call him Krle.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's continue.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are at 28.38.1, that is page 13.  There you

17     go.

18        Q.   Now, this says, and since it's in English, I'll just -- it's

19     Colonel Mirko Trivic, commander of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade,

20     Drina Corps, it said he identified himself at trial; is that correct?

21        A.   That's correct.  He identified himself in the Popovic trial.

22        Q.   And did he command units of his brigade in the attack on

23     Srebrenica?

24        A.   That's correct.  He was commander of the 2nd Romanija Motorised

25     Brigade.

Page 6668

 1        Q.   And then we see the next, number 2, is identified as

 2     Milan Tupajic --

 3        A.   Tupajic.

 4        Q.   -- president of the Municipal Assembly of Sokolac, that he was

 5     identified by Trivic at trial, and by General Krstic at his trial.  And

 6     is that also correct in your double-checking these?

 7        A.   That's correct.  Krstic -- General Krstic identified him in the

 8     year 2000 in his trial and Colonel Trivic in the Popovic in - if I can

 9     check - May 2009.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are at 28.52.4.  That's number 17.

13        Q.   And I think at this point we certainly recognise General Mladic

14     and General Zivanovic.  We now see number 1, the woman, as Dana Bartula.

15     And was she a member of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade of the Drina

16     Corps?

17        A.   Yes, she was.

18        Q.   And identified by her commander, Mirko Trivic?

19        A.   That's correct.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We're at 30.35.6, number 19 on e-court.

23        Q.   And I note that we see the back of number 2's head, but -- and

24     identify him as Zivanovic.  Were you able to, in looking at the entire

25     video, see his face in this sequence?

Page 6669

 1        A.   Yes.  He turns around.  You see that it's General Zivanovic.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, number 1, who is that?

 3        A.   Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic, chief of security for the

 4     Drina Corps.

 5        Q.   And how do you know that?

 6        A.   He is also a familiar face to us over the course of the

 7     investigation and over the trial of the Popovic et al. trial.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's continue.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

11             We just saw a rather significant statement for the Prosecution.

12     And if the Court -- we'll see that, and Ms. Stewart will play that one

13     more time because you may recall, it starts out with a certain sort of

14     clarity as he's speaking, and then after he says, "We'll give this as a

15     gift," it switches into a whole 'nother kind of clarity, and he goes on

16     and makes the comment about the Dahis and take revenge.

17        Q.   Can you -- and I will go back to your initial explanation of how

18     Ms. Fracassetti edited the various materials trying to find the best

19     quality and editing where things were cut out.  So could you explain what

20     happened, if anything, in the -- in -- as Ms. Fracassetti, where you

21     edited this particular part.  And first of all, have you had a chance

22     recently to speak Ms. Fracassetti about this particular part precisely?

23        A.   Yes.  A few weeks ago I did speak with Marta Fracassetti and

24     asked her specifically about this segment, because as you noticed, it's

25     two sources of video footage edited together.  And what she had told me

Page 6670

 1     at that time is, as I mentioned before, she always tries to use the best

 2     quality footage possible.  And you will see the nice quality, very clear

 3     sound and video, prior.  And that is all the footage that she got from

 4     that source, which was from Antelope Productions.

 5             The Tribunal also received other footage from, that you see, from

 6     SRT, Srpska Radio Television, of this same interview.  And it is the

 7     exact same interview except for there's this last little bit that's

 8     included, which was not a part of what we received from

 9     Antelope Productions.  So what she did is use the best-quality footage,

10     as much as she could from the Antelope footage, and -- but it was not

11     complete, and so then added in the SRT footage to make it the complete

12     interview that he -- he did on July 11th, in the centre of Srebrenica.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, we all know that video is just a series of frames all

14     put together.  Did you ask Ms. Fracassetti if she -- if there was any

15     frames missing in this interview that she couldn't link?

16        A.   No.  She was able to absolutely line up the -- both footages so

17     then it was seamless link from what finished of the Antelope, the nice

18     quality footage, and then immediately just connected it with the

19     SRT footage.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we'll just play that segment over again so

21     you can try to get a picture of what I'm talking about.

22        Q.   And as a reminder, we start with Antelope; is that correct?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   That's the good quality?

25        A.   Right.

Page 6671

 1        Q.   And then Antelope actually stopped.  It didn't have the complete

 2     footage; correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   But the Serb TV, that was published on the TV, did?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And -- all right.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And so we're starting again at 30.37.7, where

 8     Antelope is.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Now I wanted to see if we can -- we tried

11     to, in preparation, a couple of weeks ago, we are a little rusty on this.

12     I believe we're going to try to play the segment of Antelope that we had,

13     so you can see the segment of Antelope, and the segment of the RS TV so

14     you can see the two segments that Ms. Fracassetti put together.

15        Q.   Okay.  We're going to be starting with the -- is this Antelope or

16     Serb TV?

17        A.   This is Serb TV there.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  So we're going to start with the -- the

19     complete -- the version we got from Serb TV.  Okay.  Go ahead, thanks.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  And that little segment of Serb TV we have

22     numbered 6597, and for the record we just ended it at 00.31.8.

23        Q.   Now, so that was the complete interview.  Of course, it was not

24     subtitled because it was not the finished product, I take it?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 6672

 1        Q.   But -- so that, on Serb TV, was the complete little interview

 2     where he's talking about giving it as a gift and then as revenge?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now, the next segment we'll see, which is -- just a

 5     minute.  This should be the -- it should be from P681 times 12.40 to

 6     13.03 which should be the Antelope section.

 7        A.   Right.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   So that was the -- the complete version of the Antelope footage

11     that we got that's the high quality?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   But, of course, it was missing the key part.

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   And so Ms. Fracassetti took the good-quality Antelope and the

16     poor quality and, where they overlapped, joined them together.  Is that a

17     simple way of saying it?

18        A.   That's correct, yes.

19        Q.   And did she do that, you know, throughout these sections where

20     similar things occurred?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I think we can - there's no questions -

23     just continue to go forward.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are stopped at 31.13.6.  Could we go to page

Page 6673

 1     15 in the still book.

 2        Q.   And, again, we are now, I hope, familiar with General Krstic, is

 3     number 1; General -- at that time Colonel Pandurevic at number 3; Mladic,

 4     of course; and Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic at number 2.

 5             Did you have any trouble identifying him in this, what is a

 6     little -- well, blurry on the picture, not quite as blurry on the video?

 7        A.   No, you saw him a few minutes earlier.  And in another photograph

 8     it's obviously the same person.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's continue.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  31.28.7, page 16 in the stills book.

12        Q.   We have a new -- a new face, Colonel Svetozar Andric, commander

13     of the 1st Birac, or known as the Sekovici Infantry Brigade of the

14     Drina Corps.  Identified by Mr. Ruez.  Have you been able to confirm

15     that?

16        A.   Yes, I am aware that.  Jean-Rene Ruez actually interviewed

17     Svetozar Andric himself in 2000.  And also I confirmed that

18     Vinko Pandurevic identified him in -- himself in his own trial in

19     January 2009.

20        Q.   And did Colonel Andric's units take part in the attack on the

21     enclave?

22        A.   Yes, they did.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's continue.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  32.32.4, page 18.

Page 6674

 1        Q.   And we see, in what is a bit blurry on this photograph, that

 2     number 2 has been identified as Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis, commander of

 3     the 10th Sabotage Detachment, a unit of the Main Staff of VRS.  Is that

 4     all correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   And it says he was identified by Drazen Erdemovic in one of his

 7     interviews; is that correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   And would Pelemis have been the commander of Drazen Erdemovic?

10        A.   Yes, he was.

11        Q.   And just to remind the Court, where was Drazen Erdemovic and his

12     unit on the 16th of July or some of his unit on 16 July?

13        A.   On the 16th of July, they participated in the execution at

14     Branjevo farm.

15        Q.   And according to Erdemovic, was Pelemis at that execution, if you

16     recall?

17        A.   Yeah, I don't recall.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Just for Your Honours, I think for all

19     sides, that it's clear that there's never been any evidence that

20     Milorad Pelemis was at the -- was at that execution, and you'll see the

21     evidence in the record.  Okay.  I think we can continue.

22             If we could have one moment.  We've come to the Hotel Fontana

23     segments, which, as I'm sure you will recall, you have seen two of the

24     three meetings with a very recent Muslim witness, so we won't play those

25     for you again.  They're a bit lengthy.  You saw the second meeting at

Page 6675

 1     11.00 between the Muslim representative and DutchBat and Mladic, and then

 2     you saw the morning of the 12th, the 10.00 meeting, with more Muslim

 3     representatives and a large group.  You have not recently seen the first

 4     Hotel Fontana meeting at about 8.00 on 11 July, but our witness next week

 5     was at that particular meeting, a Dutch soldier, so we will play it with

 6     him as opposed to you seeing that now and then seeing it again.

 7             So if we could just have a minute with -- Ms. Stewart and I will

 8     be able to adjust.

 9             Okay.  Now we're going at  And it's the segment

10     entitled "Potocari, 12 July 1995," from Reuters and Serb television.  And

11     I think we can just play that.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  We are at, at page 42 of the

14     stills book.

15        Q.   And this is a -- four men that have been identified.  The first

16     one, Milan Milinkovic, known as Like, member of the 2nd Battalion,

17     1st Company of the Bratunac Brigade.  He identified himself in an

18     OTP interview on 18 January.

19             Is that correct and confirmed by you?

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I've read the interview.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you, perhaps, tell us who took this

22     interview, who was the OTP representative?

23             THE WITNESS:  It was in 2003 and ... yeah, I -- [Overlapping

24     speakers] ...

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We can get a list of homework going on that.  So

Page 6676

 1     I think, if it's okay, she can check that at the break.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, it was one of the OTP investigators on the

 3     Srebrenica team, but at the moment I have forgotten who did the

 4     interview.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Now, number 2 is Dobrisav Stanojevic, known as Miko, and it says

 8     he's a member of the 1st Company of the Separate Police Unit, known as

 9     PJP, of the CJB Zvornik MUP.  And then there's -- number 3 is Dusan

10     Micic, who is also a PJP member but from the same unit.  And number 4,

11     Radenko Tomic, known as Gargija, a member of Mauzer's Panthers Unit of

12     the East Bosnia Corps.  And we see, at number 4, that Radenko Tomic had

13     identified himself in an OTP interview on 15 March 2001 and 18 January

14     2003.  Do you know which investigator, do you recall there?

15        A.   No, I know Bruce Bursik did a number of the interviews in 2003,

16     but I've read so many of them I actually can't remember if he exact -- if

17     he did both of these.

18        Q.   But were these, as you say, all Srebrenica team members that were

19     actually doing this?

20        A.   Yes.  Yeah.

21        Q.   Okay.  And then we see all identified by Dobrisav Stanojevic at

22     trial.  And Dobrisav is number 2.

23             Which trial was that?

24        A.   That was in Popovic.  And he -- he identified them in

25     June of 2007.

Page 6677

 1        Q.   And, of course, this photo, we see number 1, we can hardly see

 2     him, let alone his face; number 2 is his back; number 3 is his back; and

 3     we do get a look, somewhat blurry look, at number 4.

 4             Can you explain, were these identifications made from this still

 5     or from something else?

 6        A.   No, they're made from the video.  So you'll see -- you'll see

 7     them, in the video, walk through, and you'll see them a little bit later.

 8     You'll see number 4 later, you'll see number 2 later.  So they're not

 9     being identified just by their -- the back of their heads.

10        Q.   And do you remember how many of these guys had bandanas on?

11        A.   There's two different ones.

12        Q.   And that would be who?

13        A.   Like, number one.  And also number 4, Radenko Tomic.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go --  Let's go to

17     page 43.

18        Q.   Now, here we get a very nice shot of one fellow in a bandana

19     identified as Milan Milinkovic or Like.  And has that all been confirmed

20     by you?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   So this is, number 1, the fellow that we could barely see in that

23     last one?

24        A.   Right.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 6678

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we can continue.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY: [Microphone not activated] ...

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. McCloskey kindly speak into the

 5     microphone.  Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'll get there.  And this is page 45.

 7        Q.   Now, this is noted to be Dobrisav Stanojevic who was number 2 in

 8     that first one we saw, with his back to the group.  But this identifies

 9     him as -- again, as a member of a PJP, or a police unit, and that he

10     identified himself at trial.  Now, which -- which trial?

11        A.   Once again, the Popovic trial.  And that was in June 2007 when he

12     identified himself.

13        Q.   And he's the fellow that identified those -- those other folks --

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   -- at the same trial?

16             Now, we see at location at the bottom, Potocari, outside of the

17     "White House," 12 July 1995.

18             First of all, how -- how have you determined this was at 12 July?

19        A.   Partly due to the content that -- that, as you'll see, it's when

20     the refugees are leaving, being put on buses, as well as the statements

21     and testimony of those that were there and stated that it was on

22     July 12th.

23        Q.   All right.  And how do you know that it was outside of the

24     "White House," have you been to this area?

25        A.   I have.  I recognise where the area is.  You see the UN base in

Page 6679

 1     the background.  The -- there's a small road, that they're entering onto

 2     the main road.  I recognise that.  You'll see more footage where you'll

 3     see that it is the "White House" right to the right, as we're looking at

 4     Dobrisav Stanojevic there, right to the right side of him as well.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   This isn't a great shot, and I don't see him in the still book,

 9     but do you recall, is this -- is this one of the people we've seen

10     before, if you know?

11        A.   Yes, I believe he's the one that we saw earlier, Gargija.

12        Q.   So there's -- Gargija and Like are the two people with the

13     bandanas?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   And do you remember Gargija's name?

16        A.   Radenko Tomic.

17        Q.   Okay.  And how you know that's Radenko Tomic?

18        A.   He was identified by Dobrisav Stanojevic in trial.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can -- and that -- this

20     still a  I think we can continue.

21             THE WITNESS:  And I'm sorry, if I can also add that he identified

22     himself in an interview.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We have stopped it at

25        Q.   And I just stopped it there to ask you, has the investigation

Page 6680

 1     over the years made any effort to try to identify any of these refugee or

 2     Muslim faces in the crowd?

 3        A.   Yes.  The team has, over the years.

 4        Q.   And has a book been developed of those identifications?

 5        A.   Yes, it has.

 6        Q.   And you will be testifying about that book when we -- when we

 7     need you; is that correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Do you know where this footage came from, these pans?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we're at

14             THE WITNESS:  We got this footage from the BBC.  BBC got the

15     footage from WTN and Reuters.  And presumably they got the footage from

16     the people that were there filming.  There are both some civilians, as

17     you saw, from SRT, some journalists that were there, as well as those

18     attached to the military that were also videotaping.

19        Q.   So we can't narrow it down to an individual in this particular

20     case?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, we see, on this still, the Dutch lined up across the

23     road, and we see the buses in the -- some -- well, I know they're buses,

24     but are those buses that we see back there?

25        A.   That's correct, yeah.  It's near the bus compound.

Page 6681

 1        Q.   And do you recognise, you know, where this is in Potocari?

 2        A.   I do.  As I said, it's near the bus compound, just 50, 100 metres

 3     up from the -- the "White House".

 4        Q.   And can that be confirmed to be on -- on 12 or 13 July?

 5        A.   I believe this to be on the 12th of July.

 6        Q.   And does the investigation have aerial images that show the bus

 7     compound and where people were relative to it on the 12th and 13th July?

 8        A.   Yes, I think so.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I won't ask you anything more about that,

10     but let's continue.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you stop for a moment, please.  Judge Nyambe

13     has a question.

14             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I just want a clarification.  Just now you said:

15             "Can that be confirmed to be on the 12th or 13th of July?"

16             And you say:

17             "I believe this to be on the" - I think you said - "12th of

18     July."

19             How are you able to tell?

20             THE WITNESS:  The -- all the BBC footage that you see in this

21     section is -- is -- seems to be from the same time-frame of July 12th

22     in -- both with the content of what's happening but once again also with

23     witnesses that have testified or made statements that they were there on

24     July 12th.

25             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Okay.  Thank you.

Page 6682

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This, in fact, is a correction of the transcript:

 2     At page 26, line 7, where it is said that it was on the 1st of July, it

 3     should be the 12th.  Thank you.  Please carry on.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  We are at, but let's go to the

 6     still of that rough time-frame, which is number 46.

 7        Q.   And this is identified, this number 1, as Ljubomir Borovcanin,

 8     the deputy commander of the Special Police brigade of the MUP.  And it

 9     says he identified himself in an OTP interview of 20 February 2002.

10             Is that correct?

11        A.   That's correct.  He was interviewed by Allistair Graham,

12     investigator on the Srebrenica team, in 2002.

13        Q.   And has there been other -- other people that have identified him

14     over the years?

15        A.   And many people, including myself, that have identified him over

16     the years.

17        Q.   All right.  And what about the date, has that been confirmed

18     or -- in his interview, or ...

19        A.   Once again, on July 12th, he's in front of this area handing out

20     candy to the children.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are at

24        Q.   I think we've gone through this once before, but just -- can you

25     tell us -- can you identify the two people in the blue helmets?

Page 6683

 1        A.   I don't know who the man in the left is that were -- with the UN

 2     blue helmet.  I -- obviously, I'm presuming a UN - perhaps a DutchBat,

 3     but I don't know for sure - member.  And from this angle, I can't see

 4     very well with the glasses if that perhaps is Colonel Kingori.  I -- it's

 5     a little hard to see from this.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's just continue.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are at  And let's go to page 47.

 9        Q.   Now, number 1 is a distinctive fellow with sunglasses and a

10     moustache that you may recall seeing him in the immediate video before

11     this, and he is said to have identified himself in an OTP interview on

12     18 October 2000, and he was the assistant commander for training of the

13     Special Police brigade of the Jahorina training centre, MUP.

14             Is that correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And was he a subordinate of Mr. Borovcanin?

17        A.   Yes, he reported directly to Ljubisa Borovcanin.

18        Q.   And number 2, who was identified by Dusko Jevic on that -- in

19     that interview, is Dragan Vasiljevic.  Is that correct and confirmed?

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   And how did you confirm these -- I think we see number 6, is that

22     the person you've named now?

23        A.   Correct, Branislav Puhalo, body-guard for General Mladic.

24        Q.   And 4 and 5, also identified as body-guards, how did you identify

25     them as body-guards?

Page 6684

 1        A.   I think it's -- it's -- I think, originally, it was identified by

 2     investigator Jean-Rene Ruez, however you will see them throughout the

 3     course of almost all the footage.  They are with General Mladic

 4     throughout the entire Srebrenica operation.  You'll see many other videos

 5     with them acting as security with him.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I believe it's break time.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  We must have the first break now, and we

 9     will resume at 11.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey, just one observation.  We

13     have seen many of these videos already.  It's only a question of use of

14     time.  You should be aware of the length of the examination-in-chief of

15     this witness.  Please carry on.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'll incorporate that into

17     the presentation, if I -- especially as I see videos come up.

18             So I think we can -- let's continue and see where this gets us.

19     I think we've already dealt with this particular still, so I think we can

20     continue the video.

21             Mr. President --

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Taking your advice, we'll skip through this

24     material.  And there is an interview with General Krstic which may be a

25     little less familiar to you that I think we can start with.  It's very,

Page 6685

 1     very brief, in Potocari, at the same point.  But I think we've seen

 2     General Mladic a few times and the Dutch and Kingori and all, so I think

 3     that is a good idea, especially since you've suggested it.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No objection.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  We are at

 6        Q.   And can you tell us what we're about to see?

 7        A.   You'll see an interview of a journalist, I believe an SRT

 8     journalist, who is interviewing General Krstic about the Srebrenica

 9     operation.

10        Q.   And what date does this interview take place?

11        A.   July 12th, 1995.

12        Q.   And how do you know that?

13        A.   General Krstic himself testified in his own trial.  And you will,

14     in some upcoming photographs, see others that also testified.

15        Q.   And when he testified, did he testify under oath with

16     cross-examination?

17        A.   Of course.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I think we can play it.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are now at  And could we go to

21     page 49, which reflects this same shot.

22        Q.   And we see that number 1 is Dalibor Krstic, the driver of

23     General Krstic.  Of course, there's -- number 2 is Radislav Krstic, and

24     3 is Vujadin Popovic.  And it states that all three of these individuals

25     were identified by General Krstic at his own trial.  And is that correct

Page 6686

 1     and confirmed by you?

 2        A.   That's correct, he identified them on October 30th, 2000.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to page 50.  But before we do that,

 6 is where we are now.  And now page 50.  And could we go into

 7     private session.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6687

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in public session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  If we can continue.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  And we're stopping -- that's a tricky one.

 7     I think that's close enough.  Let's go to -- we're at -- sorry, you are

 8     very good, and I appreciate it.  And now we can go to

 9     number 51.

10        Q.   Where we get a better -- a little better still of what Mr. --

11     almost got.  Number 1, Zoran Kovacevic, commander of the 4th Company of

12     the 2nd Battalion Bratunac Brigade.  We see how he was identified, he's

13     giving an interview.  Is that confirmed?

14        A.   That's correct.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And can we go down a little bit.

16        Q.   Now we have number 2, this distinctive fellow with the bald head

17     and the big mustache, identified:  Lieutenant-Colonel Svetozar Kosoric,

18     chief of intelligence of the Drina Corps.  But there is nothing in the

19     document saying how that was come to.

20             How do you or the investigation know that?

21        A.   Actually, from the footage that was in Hotel Fontana, he was

22     identified there by Colonel Boering, so I think that was the first time

23     that he was identified in this book.  And in the video, I am also

24     familiar with who he is from numerous video footage over the years, and I

25     can identify him as Svetozar Kosoric.

Page 6688

 1        Q.   All right.  And let's go down to the bottom of the page for the

 2     location.  We see it says "Potocari, plus or minus 200 metres south of

 3     the UN base, 12 July."  How do you know, first of all, the location where

 4     this was?

 5        A.   Just from the video footage.  You'll see roughly the location as

 6     being further south from the UN base.

 7        Q.   So were you able to recognise those bits and pieces of buildings

 8     you see by -- as the vehicles are passing?

 9        A.   I roughly recognise the area, yes.

10        Q.   And how do you know it's 12 July?

11        A.   Once again, it's from statements and testimony.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's continue.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are at  And can we go to 52.

15        Q.   We see this is a -- person number 1 is Rade Micic, a member of

16     the 2nd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade, identified by Brano Ilic in an

17     OTP interview.  Can you tell us who Brano Ilic is?

18        A.   He's a member of the 2nd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.

19     You'll see him coming up a little bit later in the footage.  He's in the

20     footage himself, so he identifies himself, he identifies a number of

21     other people.  He also has -- has played -- I've met him myself, he's

22     played a role in managing the Hotel Fontana since it closed down.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Here we are at

Page 6689

 1        Q.   And it just -- it said, before that, "a broadcast."  Can you tell

 2     us what this -- what this is?

 3        A.   Yes, it's a daily news, broadcasted on SRT; and it, as you see,

 4     the date is July 12th, 1995, and he -- you'll see momentarily, he

 5     interviews Radoslav [sic] Karadzic.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So Radovan Karadzic.  And when you say "date," we see that

 7     right above the Cyrillic, I guess.  It's a bit hard to see it.  I think

 8     it's written across South America "12.7.1995"?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   All right.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I interrupt you.

12             Witness, you said "Radoslav Karadzic," and it's recorded that

13     way.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I'd like to correct that.  It's

15     "Radovan Karadzic."  I had "Radislav Krstic" in my head.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I think we can play that.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, this is, I believe, four or five

20     minutes.  Would you like to hear it or would you like to skip over it?

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't recall having seen that already in this

22     trial.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, I don't either.  And I'm not sure if we

24     played it with Mr. Ruez, so it is --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't think so.

Page 6690

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY: -- a significant piece, so ... thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Carry on, please.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should stop for a moment.

 5             Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  From the very

 7     beginning, I've not had the sound in the interview given by

 8     President Karadzic.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps you should move to channel 4.  This is

10     the English channel.  We could hear the Serbian language used by the

11     speakers, but there's, of course, no translation from Serbian to B/C/S.

12     Perhaps this is the way to deal with that.  Shall we start from the

13     beginning again?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.  From the very

15     beginning Karadzic speaks Serbian.  I can't hear anything.  The tone has

16     been completely lowered.  I can only see the subtitles.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, you should try to go to channel 4.

18     Because it's -- we heard the original voice on channel 4.

19             Let's start again.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I hope you were able to follow in

22     the Serbian language.  Did you?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.  I

24     was able to follow on channel 4, just as you instructed me to do.  Thank

25     you.

Page 6691

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 3        Q.   Ms. Gallagher, we're at  This is -- we have this as

 4     Reuters footage of 12 July; is that correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   And how do you -- again, do you know this is 12 July?

 7        A.   It's from statements of some of the members that were there from

 8     the Bratunac Brigade, that they were in Potocari on the 12th for a short

 9     time.

10        Q.   All right.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could now go to page 60.

12        Q.   Have you reviewed page 60 through 63 in this book?

13        A.   Yes, I have.

14        Q.   And are these various identifications of Bratunac Brigade and

15     PJP members?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   And are they correctly identified and the sources correctly

18     identified?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Your Honours, I would intend to go through

21     these stills very quickly because these are very particular

22     identifications of Bratunac Brigade members that I think is important for

23     this trial.  It was mainly very important for the trial of the commander

24     of the Bratunac Brigade, which is while [sic] it's here, but unless

25     anyone want us to go over these individually, I think they speak for

Page 6692

 1     themselves, and she has just testified that they are accurate.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many more of these stills do you have

 3     prepared?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There are -- well, of the stills of these

 5     Bratunac Brigade and MUP soldiers, they're all very similar and there's

 6     several of them.  There's -- there's four pages that I would go through

 7     very quickly just to have her confirm them, because they will be in the

 8     book that you will get.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, I think this is a good way to deal with

10     that.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

12        Q.   And this -- can you tell us where this is?

13        A.   Once again, it's in Potocari.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And let's go to the next page, 61.

15        Q.   And are these identifications correct and is -- it's basically in

16     the same place?

17        A.   That's correct.  They came in as a group together.

18        Q.   And do you know how far away this section of the street is,

19     roughly, from the UN compound?

20        A.   It's on the other side of the street, right near the compound.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 62 now.

23        Q.   And are these accurate, and is this in the same place?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   On the same date, 12 July?

Page 6693

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And 63.

 4        Q.   And are the -- same place, same date, correct IDs?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, I'm not sure if Ms. Stewart can find this

 8     next section.  It's a little bit different.  So if we could go to page 64

 9     right now just to see the still that we're getting to.

10        Q.   And I think we'll first talk about the still.  We see a bus with

11     Muslim women and children getting on it.  Where is this happening?

12        A.   It's also in Potocari.  It's in a nearby location --

13        Q.   All right.

14        A.   -- as the other stills.

15        Q.   And we see that two soldiers have been identified as

16     Bratunac Brigade.  One is Radenko Zaric of the Bratunac Brigade military

17     police.  Is that identification correct?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   And Milovan Mitrovic, again, Bratunac Brigade military police?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And can you make out in Zaric's hand, when you watch the video,

22     can you tell what's -- what are in his -- both his hands, aside from

23     hold -- cradling that rifle?

24        A.   It's a pencil and paper.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And I think we can just play that

Page 6694

 1     section of the footage.  We are at -- we're starting at

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  We are at  Can we go to

 4     page 65.

 5        Q.   And is this a correct ID of -- all we have is that he's a member

 6     of the Special Police brigade of the Jahorina training centre identified

 7     by Dusko Jevic?  Is that correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.  Dusko Jevic identified him as part of the

 9     deserter unit of the Special Police brigade, Jahorina unit.

10        Q.   And, again, remind us, Dusko Jevic, did he have any command

11     authority over that unit?

12        A.   He was the direct commander of the Jahorina training centre of

13     the deserter units and reported directly to Ljubisa Borovcanin.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can continue the video.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  If we could stop right there for a second.

17     We're at

18        Q.   Can you tell us, it says "Luke."  Where's that?

19        A.   It's on the way towards Kladanj.  It's near Tisca.  And the

20     women, children, elderly have -- are being taken and dropped off here at

21     the zone for them to walk into the free territory towards Kladanj.

22        Q.   And does the investigation reveal that any able-bodied men were

23     separated there?

24        A.   That as well, as Tisca.

25        Q.   And I note it says 12 or 13 July.  How was it that you weren't

Page 6695

 1     able to identify which day it was?

 2        A.   Because they started the evacuation, deportation of the refugees,

 3     on the 12th and it continued into the 13th.

 4        Q.   There's no way to distinguish exactly which date it was, I take

 5     it?

 6        A.   Not from this specific footage.  I -- no.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, let's -- I think we can play that.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  We've now come at

11        Q.   It's obviously a different film.  But before I get to that, we

12     saw the Muslim women and children and elderly walking down the main road.

13     Do you know roughly -- and roughly just how long they had to walk before

14     they got to the actual Muslim lines where they could be taken care of?

15        A.   I would say between 5 and 10 kilometres.  It might be 5 or

16     7 kilometres, but I'm not a hundred per cent sure.

17        Q.   Okay.  And now we -- we see the still of the next clip, which it

18     also says 12 or 13 July, and it looks like it's a different footage.

19             Can you tell us, first of all, the material before that, that was

20     clear, of the people getting off the buses, where did that come from?

21        A.   Once again, that's the footage that we got from the BBC, which

22     they got from WTN and Reuters.

23        Q.   Okay.  And how about this footage, this more blurry footage?

24        A.   Yeah, the blurry footage comes from Srpska Radio Television.

25        Q.   All right.  And they're now walking towards a camera.  Can you

Page 6696

 1     tell, do you know where this camera is being shot from now, as opposed to

 2     the last one which was at their backs?

 3        A.   In this particular still, particular shot, I'm -- I'm -- yeah, I

 4     don't know.  I don't know if they're -- I mean, presumably they're closer

 5     to Kladanj, but I -- I can't tell from this where exactly they are

 6     located.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's just play that.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   And we see a person in camouflage on the left of the screen with

11     a camouflage T-shirt on, and do you know who that is?

12        A.   That's Colonel Boering.

13        Q.   And how do you know that?

14        A.   He is seen in the Hotel Fontana footage that you would have seen

15     earlier at the three different meetings, and he also testified in the

16     Popovic trial.

17        Q.   All right.  And do you -- we just saw some people in other

18     camouflage uniforms going the other way, do you know, as we see other

19     camouflage, who or what units will we begin to see, as far as you know?

20        A.   We'll begin to see the Bosnian Muslim units.

21        Q.   And so where would that be?

22        A.   Closer to the -- closer to Kladanj.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's -- let's just finish playing that.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Stop for a moment, please.  Judge Mindua has a

Page 6697

 1     question.

 2             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. McCloskey, I apologise,

 3     the video we have just seen, Luke, 12th or 13th of July, 1993 [as

 4     interpreted], the witness has said that she didn't know exactly when this

 5     footage was taken, since the evacuation lasted from the 12th to the 13th.

 6             So this is my question:  Why did she not question or why did the

 7     investigators not question the people concerned or even the soldiers I

 8     see now on this still, as is the case for the other videos when she

 9     recognised or identified a number of people and when she said, We know

10     who these people are, and we know on what date this happened?

11             Why is this not the case for the previous video, 12th or 13th of

12     July, 1993 [as interpreted], Luke, and we don't know when?  And why is

13     this the case?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record, I'm quite sure that Judge Mindua

15     is referring to 1995 and not to 1993 as he was recorded twice.

16             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.  I meant 1995.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you perhaps answer this question?

18             THE WITNESS:  In some instances, the witnesses actually don't

19     remember if it was the 12th or 13th, that it was one of those two days

20     that they've stated, themselves.  When we've had chances to go back and

21     re-interview witnesses, sometimes we try to clarify that and are able to

22     and other times not, so we're not able to, ourselves.

23             In this particular footage of Luke, the only person that I

24     believe was ever identified as being there is Colonel Boering.  And I'd

25     have to -- I'd have to refresh my recollection as to what he says, if it

Page 6698

 1     is -- if he's able to clarify that at all on the 12th or 13th.  I'm

 2     presuming he wasn't able to because of the fact that it's titled the 12th

 3     or the 13th, but I actually don't know.  I haven't interviewed him

 4     myself.

 5             I would be glad to double-check just to make sure if we can get

 6     any further as to which day that is.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Your Honours, Colonel Boering will be a

 9     witness and will be able to assist on this issue.

10        Q.   But regarding the Judge's questions, the first clip that showed

11     at the drop-off point on the Serb side, do you remember any people

12     that were you able to even identify from that side?

13        A.   I know that there was a -- a -- I don't know if he was a

14     Major Sarkic who was at that point.  Anything more -- I can't tell you

15     much more about that.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if the Court doesn't object, I think another

18     bit of homework is to review Major Sarkic, to see if he was able to

19     distinguish or was ever asked that point.  That might help answer

20     Judge Mindua's question.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Thank you.  I think we can continue then.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, if we could just stop it.

24        Q.   We obviously had a change-over.  Do you -- can you account for

25     that?

Page 6699

 1        A.   That's correct.  This is now different footage, different source

 2     footage, of -- actually of a filmmaker from Norway for Norwegian TV who

 3     had done this -- this video.

 4        Q.   Is this the same exodus that we saw in the previous footage where

 5     we see Major Boering coming out with the refugees?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Continue.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   The first shot, it looked like it was at night.  But now we see a

12     big tunnel.  Have you been to that tunnel?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Have you -- do you know about where such a tunnel would be?

15        A.   Once again, it would be between Tisca and Kladanj, but I don't

16     know exactly where the tunnel is.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are now at

20        Q.   Entitled "Tuzla Airport," again, 12 or 13 July 1995.  Can you

21     tell us where this footage came from?

22        A.   Yes, you'll see it's a combination of, once again, news footage,

23     as well as this Norwegian film-maker Maria Warsinski, who did a lot of

24     this footage that we also got from Sarajevo TV.

25        Q.   And, again, the investigation did not distinguish or was not able

Page 6700

 1     to distinguish between 12 and -- whether this was 12 or 13 July?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's play it.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Can you just briefly remind us where Tuzla airport fits into

 8     this, just very briefly?

 9        A.   It's -- it's where the refugees ultimately end up in camps, in

10     the grounds near the Tuzla airport.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we stop for a moment.

14             Judge Nyambe.

15             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I just want a clarification where exactly this

16     video is, where these people are in the video that we are seeing now and

17     a few minutes before?

18             THE WITNESS:  It is near the Tuzla airport.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   And that's one place we didn't have time to go to, so can you

21     help orient where Tuzla is?  Let's start -- well, where they were dropped

22     off, Vlasenica, the Court's much -- very familiar with, and from

23     Vlasenica to Luke, the drop-offs point, roughly how many kilometres is

24     that?  Just give your best, rough -- or how long it took you to drive, if

25     you've been there?

Page 6701

 1             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Just before she answers, maybe you can also

 2     clarify in who -- in whose custody these people are at this point.

 3             THE WITNESS:  At this point they've been let out of the buses, so

 4     they are now free.  They're -- they have walked into Muslim territory.

 5     And so they're -- they're no longer in Bosnian Serb territory or custody.

 6             And in terms of the area, it's -- it's, you know, north-west of

 7     Srebrenica, west of Kladanj.  And I wouldn't want to -- I've never

 8     driven -- I've driven to Tuzla many times but not that direct route, many

 9     different routes.  So off the top of my head, I wouldn't want to guess

10     how many kilometres.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   We'll get a map up so you can visualize that.  But just to make

13     it clear, when they walk through that tunnel and come out to where those

14     Bosnian Muslim soldiers are, is that -- what town area is that?

15        A.   They would be approaching Kladanj.

16        Q.   And Kladanj, the town of Kladanj, is that a Muslim territory or

17     Serb?

18        A.   Muslim territory.

19        Q.   And then if you go up to Tuzla, is -- Tuzla is what territory?

20        A.   It is also Muslim territory.

21        Q.   And this large area where we see the Muslims, you've said Tuzla

22     airport.  Is that the Tuzla airport that we are seeing, that open area?

23        A.   Right.  Where you see tents set up, the wire -- the barbed wire

24     there, it's -- it's where they are placed for -- placed temporarily.

25        Q.   So we do see this barbed wire.  I think there's indications of

Page 6702

 1     fences.  Were they held in custody by anybody at this point?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we can continue.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  We're going on to a much different

 7     chapter at this point.  Would you like us to bring up a map to -- we did

 8     not get to -- we just made a cut at Luke and Kladanj and Tuzla in our

 9     site visit.  We just thought it was too much.  But we do have the map

10     book that will help us identify that.  Yes, and ...

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you could call up such a map now on the

12     screen, that would be helpful.  If not, we have received several maps

13     already, in the map book especially.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I have a very simple to-scale map book.

15     It's at P54.  It's at P75, not P54.  This is page 5 of your map book,

16     which -- if we could blow that up a bit.  And I think we can bring it

17     down so we can just see Kladanj.  Keep going.  You'll get Tuzla up in the

18     top screen.  Keep going, keep going, there we go.

19        Q.   So I know those -- for some reason, they didn't scan very well,

20     but can you trace the route on this, if you know it?

21             And I think we might as well use the -- I think we can use the

22     pen on this.

23             Where -- let's start in Bratunac where -- well, we can start in

24     Potocari.  And hopefully, if you just start in Potocari, you can just

25     draw the line along the road where they went.

Page 6703

 1        A.   In terms of in the buses, like, Potocari, Bratunac ...

 2        Q.   Yeah, just -- just trace the road where they went, actually, with

 3     the -- on the -- yeah, there we go.

 4        A.   Mm-hmm.  Okay.  And then from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, down to

 5     Milici.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   Towards Vlasenica.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And --

 9        A.   And then up to Tisca.  And then the route to Luke.

10        Q.   Now, Luke, is that where they were dropped off?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And that purple line at Luke, is that -- what's that?

13        A.   The confrontation line.

14        Q.   Okay.  So then they would have walked across that confrontation

15     line, and --

16        A.   Right.

17        Q.   -- met people roughly at the other side of the confrontation

18     line; is that right?

19        A.   Correct.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  And then we can see that the distance

21     Tuzla is and the map book is actually to scale for each square, and it's

22     roughly -- it's about 5 kilometres from Potocari to Bratunac, so you can

23     just use that to get an idea of how far it is from Kladanj to Tuzla as

24     the crow flies.  It's clearly at least 50 kilometres.  But that gives you

25     a better picture of the Kladanj front line Luke-Tuzla area which we just,

Page 6704

 1     frankly, did not think we had enough time to see.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering this map?

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I -- this map book, I

 4     believe, came in and was discussed in detail with Mr. Ruez, and I

 5     understand it's a long time ago.  I don't remember exactly --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was not my question.  If you are tendering

 7     this marked map --

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh, of course.  Yes, I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.

 9     Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To have a better understanding of the transcript.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, absolutely.  And this -- this route is

12     important.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.  The marking map will be

14     received.  And Judge Nyambe wants to put a question in relation to this

15     map.

16             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Actually, it's not a question.

17             Do you think you could mark the confrontation line -- it's gone.

18     Can you mark the confrontation line when you next mark the route.  Okay?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I think we can --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The number of the marked map.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  The markings made by the witness, Your Honours,

22     on P00075 will be assigned P01261.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we get another colour and, just so it's

24     very clear, where the confrontation line is.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it possible to get the marked map back on the

Page 6705

 1     screen, P1261, please.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There it is again.

 4             Judge Nyambe.

 5             JUDGE NYAMBE:  You can just put an X.

 6             THE WITNESS:  It's not showing up.  It's a bit off there.  But

 7     where you can see the purple line that's coming down, where it intersects

 8     the road there.

 9             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   So can we just be clear.  It's a little hard to tell.  The purple

12     line that goes north/south and goes all the way through this, is that the

13     confrontation line?

14        A.   That's the confrontation line, yeah.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should be admitted into evidence as well so

17     that we have a full picture.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, please.

19             THE WITNESS:  Can I just note that my -- my X, for whatever

20     reasons, went to the right side of the line.  It is supposed to be right

21     on the line there.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So why don't we just erase that and just --

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY: -- yeah, do it again.  Thanks.

25             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

Page 6706

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Then we'd offer --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  We will admit that into evidence.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the markings made on Exhibit P01261

 6     will be assigned Exhibit P01262.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, if we could go back up to just, in the

 9     movie, it's at -- it says -- it should start:  "Potocari, 13 July 1995,

10     Petrovic footage."  And it's at

11        Q.   Now, can you just tell us briefly --

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Because we will be hearing from Mr. Petrovic; we

13     will be hearing from Mr. Blaszczyk, who has studied this and will be able

14     to give us locations actually seen on the video.

15             Ms. Gallagher will help us with still IDs of people in it, but

16     it's a -- as you'll find, a very interesting video with lots of -- lots

17     of questions may arise.  She can answer some of them, but we do have

18     Mr. Petrovic coming and Mr. Blaszczyk.  So we'll somewhat awkwardly try

19     to give you the guts of this, but be prepared for more detail as it

20     comes.

21        Q.   So, first of all, can you tell us, when we say "Petrovic video,"

22     what do we mean by that, "Petrovic footage"?

23        A.   Zoran Petrovic was an independent journalist from Belgrade, and

24     he was attached to the Special Police, to Ljubomir Borovcanin, on July

25     13th.  He followed him on that day, as well as actually July 14th, and

Page 6707

 1     took this footage.  He is the only person that is with Borovcanin.  He's

 2     doing his own camera work.  And he spends the day with him.

 3             The footage is then sold to many different places around the

 4     world.  It's very famous footage, and you'll see it over and over again.

 5     And this is his -- his video footage.

 6        Q.   And can you tell us the areas -- just roughly, the areas that

 7     it -- that we're going to be seeing in this footage?

 8        A.   It starts out in Potocari, so you'll see them in Potocari on the

 9     13th.  And then it goes to the road between Konjevic Polje and Kravica,

10     along that road, and Sandici meadow.  Then there's a little bit of

11     footage on the 14th in Srebrenica.

12        Q.   And in that original footage that got sold and sent out around

13     the world that the OTP got a copy of, was that the complete video that

14     was at the time?

15        A.   No.  It was the -- most of the footage -- but also we had

16     discovered that -- earlier Srebrenica teams had discovered that there was

17     some missing portions of the footage that was not given to us by

18     Zoran Petrovic, and it's specifically some footage of men in the

19     "White House" in Potocari, as well as bodies seen in the Kravica

20     warehouse.  Both of these on July 13th.

21        Q.   And when you see the original footage, is there anything

22     indicating a blackout or an overcover or something where the pieces have

23     been cut from?

24        A.   In the video footage that Zoran Petrovic gave us, these bits that

25     I mentioned, the "White House" and the Kravica warehouse, in place of

Page 6708

 1     those bits are -- is a -- is some taped-over bits.  One of them is of

 2     some ammunition.  Another one is of food MRE box.  There's another

 3     section that's in black where he is apparently having a conversation with

 4     his family in his apartment.

 5        Q.   All right.  And he explains this in his testimony?

 6        A.   He does.

 7        Q.   All right.  And when you say "food MRE," can you tell us what

 8     that is?

 9        A.   They are the ready-to-eat military food boxes that they get out

10     in the field.

11        Q.   And did we some time later receive more footage, missing footage,

12     if you will, from this Petrovic video?

13        A.   We did later receive the missing footage.  It was actually

14     broadcasted on -- in Belgrade on their independent TV station called

15     Studio B.

16        Q.   And so can you now just remind us what, briefly, the missing

17     footage is?

18        A.   There's two major portions that are missing.  One of them is of

19     the men that are being -- that are on the balcony at the "White House" in

20     Potocari, that are being held there.  And then the other footage is in

21     front of the Kravica warehouse.  There's a number of bodies laying in

22     front of the warehouse.  And there's several men also in front of the

23     warehouse, whether they're police or Bosnian Serb officers that are in

24     front of the warehouse.

25        Q.   All right.  And we'll -- and does the video, as its played for

Page 6709

 1     the Court, will that distinguish the original sometimes and then go back

 2     and show the little missing pieces?

 3        A.   Correct.  You'll see where it's -- the missing portions are

 4     placed in by Marta Fracassetti.  And one of the obvious things that

 5     you'll notice is that it will say "Studio B."  There's an emblem for

 6     them, for Studio B, in the corner of the -- of the footage.

 7        Q.   All right.  And to try to save a little time, there are several

 8     stills of the Petrovic footage that identify various members of the

 9     Bratunac Brigade and some PJP or MUP officers; is that correct?

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   And have you reviewed the still book in that situation to confirm

12     those -- those IDs are correct?

13        A.   Yes, they're all correct.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And for the record, that would be pages 67, 68,

15     and 69 of the still book.  And page 70 of the still book is of an APC,

16     Bratunac Brigade APC.

17        Q.   Were you able to identify that as a Bratunac Brigade APC?  I

18     don't think we need to show it all at this point.

19        A.   Yes, I checked the vehicle logs, and this APC is registered for

20     the Bratunac Brigade.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that's, for the record, on pages 70 and 71 of

22     the still book.

23        Q.   And on page 72 was a Bratunac Brigade TAM rocket-launcher that

24     was also identified by Mr. Butler as the military analyst in this case as

25     belonging to the Bratunac Brigade; is that correct.

Page 6710

 1        A.   Correct, he testified in Krstic that that was a -- that was a TAM

 2     rocket-launcher registered to the Bratunac Brigade.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go to, now, page 73.  There's a

 5     significant person who is a bit more significant than these mere soldiers

 6     to this case, so I would like it if you could see that.  And then I'll

 7     just try to play the film so we don't have interruptions.

 8             If we could get to page 73 in that still book P624.

 9        Q.   And this person has been identified as Mendeljev Djuric,

10     1st Company commander Special Police brigade, Jahorina training centre.

11     Is that correct?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   When it says "identified himself at trial," which trial was that?

14        A.   That was in the Popovic trial in May 2007.  He identified

15     himself.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And that is a -- Your Honours, a

17     straight 92 bis witness at this point, number 120.  So he will not be

18     called, unless the Defence calls him or the Court chooses to.

19             All right.  I think at this point we can just play this --

20     this -- the Petrovic footage for the Potocari segment.  And, of course,

21     if anyone has any questions, please let us know.

22             You have seen some of this before, I think, through

23     Major Kingori.

24             We start at

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 6711

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   Has the investigation identified who we can hear talking?

 3        A.   We heard just there -- you'll hear Zoran Petrovic and usually

 4     Ljubisa Borovcanin.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  And we can -- and that was at

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   Again, have any of these --

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are at

10        Q.   Have any of these men been identified as gone missing from

11     Potocari on July 13th, 1995?

12        A.   Yes.  There's a number of these men that have passed by that we

13     know the identity of who they are.  And I think most of the men that are

14     seen here, if not all of them, have been identified from mass graves.

15        Q.   And that will be the subject of another book on another day?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, we can continue.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we're at

21        Q.   And can you tell us who's asking the questions of these people?

22        A.   That's the journalist Zoran Petrovic that is asking questions.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Your Honours, the transcript, of course, is

24     available.  And these people that we know are identified, of course, in

25     the transcript.  But I think just to -- for the showing, to make it

Page 6712

 1     clear.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it the transcript P1008?

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Exactly.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   We just see, at, that we have a time and date stamped.

 8     It just appeared.  Has the investigation reviewed that for correctness?

 9        A.   Yes, it has.  That is the correct date and time based on our

10     knowledge of events, based on statements.  And Zoran Petrovic himself

11     verified that that was correct.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  We can continue.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we stop for a moment.

15             Judge Nyambe.

16             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Just a clarification.  We saw just in blue berets

17     seen in this video are UN soldiers?

18             THE WITNESS:  That's correct, they are UN DutchBat soldiers.

19             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And the person -- perhaps we could go back just a

21     little bit.  And we are stilled here at

22        Q.   This person in the blue, do you know who that is?

23        A.   That's Lieutenant van Duijn from the DutchBat.

24        Q.   Has he always been a witness and testified about the events that

25     we see him in here?

Page 6713

 1        A.   Yes, he's testified before about this and identified himself in

 2     this video.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And he is a 92 bis, with cross, so we hope to be

 4     seeing him, Your Honour, so that we will get a much clearer picture of

 5     what's going on, what's being said, and who all these people are, from a

 6     direct source.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In your question, you said the man in blue.  You

 8     were referring to the beret?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, absolutely.  That's, I think, the only blue

10     thing about him.  With the blue beret, yes.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Just for clarification.  Please carry

12     on.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   At, the man in the blue beret and the T-shirt, who is

16     that?

17        A.   Once again, it's Lieutenant van Duijn.

18        Q.   And we see the back of the person he is speak to, but do you

19     know, from seeing this video, the entire thing, who that is?

20        A.   And that's Ljubisa Borovcanin of the Special Police.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Just to remind us, can you now get a better look at who this --

25     this black man is with the blue beret?

Page 6714

 1        A.   That's Colonel Joseph Kingori.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We can continue.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   I just want to ask you, on this entire video, is there anyone

 7     else besides, at that time, Major Kingori that can be seen actually

 8     saying something, complaining about the conditions for the Muslim

 9     population?

10        A.   My recollection is he's the only one.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We can continue.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Looking at this still at, I think we

15     will all agree we see Major Kingori.  And that, actually, is on page 77

16     of the still book, but I don't think we need it at this point.

17             Actually, let's -- let's go to that now, if we could.  Page 77 of

18     the still book.

19        Q.   I think we now can recognise Major Kingori and Mr. Borovcanin as

20     2 and 3 respectively.  Number 4 is only identified as Miki.  How is

21     this -- do you remember how this identification was made?

22        A.   It was made by Mendeljev Djuric, and he did not remember his full

23     name.  He had the nickname of Miki and that he was a member of the

24     deserter Jahorina unit of the Special Police.

25        Q.   And I think I recall that Colonel Kingori, at the time when he

Page 6715

 1     testified here, had stated he thought number 1 was a VRS soldier.  We see

 2     number 1 as the investigative team identifying as a member of the

 3     United Nations Dutch Battalion.  Is the investigations correct on this,

 4     in your view?

 5        A.   Yes, we haven't identified who he is.  I certainly know from the

 6     interview that Ljubisa Borovcanin gave us, and he watched this video and

 7     identified people, he did not identify him as a Bosnian Serb officer or

 8     soldier.

 9        Q.   All right.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I think it's break time.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it is.  We must have our second break now,

12     and we will resume at 1.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, before we adjourn today, the

16     Chamber needs five to seven minutes for some housekeeping matters at the

17     end of today's session.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Fine.  We'll, I'm sure, remember that, with

19     Ms. Stewart's help.

20             And I think we're -- I think we're ready just to continue playing

21     the Petrovic video from 13 July.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are at

24        Q.   We just saw what appeared to be a big brass shell casing of some

25     sort.  Does this fit into what you told us earlier about this film?

Page 6716

 1        A.   Right.  The footage that Zoran Petrovic had given us had

 2     the section, where you saw the beginning of it, of the casing, the

 3     ammunition.  And what you then saw was the footage of Studio B that we

 4     believe to be -- was originally in that spot.

 5        Q.   Okay.  That shell casing sitting there, is there any way to tie

 6     that -- a shell casing just sitting there into Potocari in any way?

 7        A.   Right, obviously it doesn't -- it doesn't -- especially when you

 8     see the full footage, it doesn't make logical sense.

 9        Q.   And so now we're beginning this what you call Studio B.  Can you

10     reminds us what Studio B is?

11        A.   It's an independent TV station in Belgrade who aired the Petrovic

12     footage with the original bits in it such as the section you are about to

13     see from the "White House" in Potocari.

14        Q.   And this writing that goes along the bottom of the screen - I

15     think it even advertises a Rolling Stones concert - what's that?

16        A.   I only presume it was -- it was -- I think because this was taped

17     off of the TV, so it was what was shown on TV at that time.

18        Q.   And can you remind us what we're about to see on Studio B that we

19     didn't see on original Petrovic?

20        A.   What you're about to see is a close-up of the "White House" of

21     the balcony, the front balcony.  You'll see the men that are sitting in

22     the balcony.

23        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell if they're sitting or standing?

24        A.   You see them sitting, looking out towards the camera.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's see that.  And continue to play

Page 6717

 1     it.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I've just frozen it at

 4        Q.   Is this what you are talking about?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I think we can continue it.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   We just saw the oversound said that these people were registered

10     war criminals.  Have you -- has the investigation uncovered any

11     indication that all those men on that balcony are registered war

12     criminals?

13        A.   No.  What witnesses have said is that men were separated and

14     taken -- and taken up to the "White House."  And a number of them have

15     stated that they -- that there were men that were executed.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think that we can continue.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Now we are at

19        Q.   We are now -- it says "Potocari 13 July 1995."  Just before we

20     get to this, does the Petrovic video continue after what we just saw?

21        A.   Yes, it does.  So this portion is placed in between the Petrovic

22     video.

23        Q.   And because this is in Potocari, we're staying in Potocari for a

24     while?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 6718

 1        Q.   Okay.  How do you know, if you can recall, that this Dutch

 2     Battalion footage was 13 July?

 3             Perhaps we can watch it and see if -- see if you know that

 4     answer, otherwise we'll put that on the homework list.

 5             And Dutch Battalion soldier, what -- what can you tell us about

 6     that?

 7        A.   This is, once again, the footage that we got from

 8     Antelope Productions, and they received it from this DutchBat warrant

 9     officer Wim Dijkema.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's play this then.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   Now, seeing this at, does this -- do you now recall,

14     you know, what this footage is?  I think it goes on for several minutes,

15     and we may be able to save some time.

16        A.   It's refugees being placed inside the buses in Potocari, and then

17     you will see all the buses leaving.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And that's pretty much what it is for

19     many minutes, and I think we saw this through Mr. Ruez, so I think

20     Ms. Stewart can bump it ahead a bit.

21             Okay.  Now we're back to the Petrovic video at  And

22     it says "On the Road, 13 July 1995."

23        Q.   So again, remind us, when we say "on the road," what are we

24     talking about?

25        A.   This is the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.  And the next

Page 6719

 1     scene, it will be -- you'll see is in Sandici meadow.

 2        Q.   All right.  And the various scenes that are along the road, has

 3     that been the subject of an actual 'nother exhibit done by another

 4     investigator in the case?

 5        A.   Correct.  My colleague Tomasz Blaszczyk will, in more detail -

 6     there he is - created a road book, and there's some video presentation

 7     that will show -- parallel the photographs and the video in the exact

 8     locations along the road and also in Potocari.

 9        Q.   All right.  So are your basic identifications of places in part

10     based on Mr. -- well, the investigator that did this?

11        A.   Yeah, it's certainly based on his work, as well as my travels and

12     experience along the road as well.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think let's just start to play that

14     then.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Here we are at  Could we go to

17     page 79 in the still book.

18        Q.   Now, this man that is calling out, Ramo Osmanovic, is that

19     correct that he's been confirmed dead from a Zeleni Jadar secondary mass

20     grave?

21        A.   That's correct.  And with the primary being Glogova and the

22     execution site being Kravica warehouse.

23        Q.   And the actual grave-site, will that be identified in Mr. Janc's

24     report for him?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 6720

 1        Q.   And it is correct that he was identified by his wife?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now we see number 2 is a person in -- with a camouflage

 4     outfit on named Slobodan Petrovic, a member of the 1st Company PJP.  And

 5     he was identified by Svetlan Stanisic in an OTP interview; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   That's correct.  And Svetlan Stanisic is also a member of the

 8     PJP.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, I think I'll try to save some time, but

10     let's go to one more still that we've seen part of.  It's page 80.

11        Q.   This is the person we see giving Ramo instructions.  And is that

12     identification of him, as Milenko, Cop, Trifunovic, as a member of the

13     Special Police brigade 2nd Sekovici Detachment MUP; is that all correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   As -- we can see from the video it's a bit fuzzy, but he,

16     Trifunovic, identified himself?

17        A.   He did, in the October 2002 interview.

18        Q.   Have you made -- has the investigation and yourself made an

19     effort to identify the other people in camouflage uniforms that are seen

20     along the road and around Sandici meadow and the next pages?

21        A.   Yes, we have.

22        Q.   And what units are, primarily, those people identified from?

23        A.   Primarily, that they're all police.  And they are members from

24     the Sekovici Special Police brigade; members of the PJP, the separate

25     police units; as well as the deserter Jahorina unit, also under the

Page 6721

 1     Special Police brigade.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And just for the record, page --

 3     those identifications can be found on pages 81, 82, in part 83, 86, 87,

 4     88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102.

 5        Q.   And, in addition, will the video show Pragas or these

 6     anti-aircraft guns shooting up at the -- towards the -- where the Muslims

 7     are surrendering?

 8        A.   Correct.  You'll see them shooting into the hills.  Into the --

 9     where the men are walking.

10        Q.   And have you been able to identify what units those anti-aircraft

11     weapons were attached to?

12        A.   Yes, they were the Sekovici Brigade, Praga and BOV.

13        Q.   All right.  And there's also a shot of a tank as well along --

14     it's page 96, we don't need to go there, I don't think.

15             Do you remember if that was identified to any specific unit?

16        A.   A number of witnesses have said that that tank from Sekovici was

17     placed down towards Konjevic Polje.  In terms of identifying that exact

18     tank, we have not had anyone say that that specific one is Sekovici.

19        Q.   All right.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I think we can just play the video, and I may

21     stop it at a point or two to clarify anything.

22             And, of course, Your Honours, please feel free to do that as

23     well.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Here we are at

Page 6722

 1        Q.   We here him, Ramo, calling, "Nermine [phoen]."  Do you know who

 2     that is, Nermine?

 3        A.   Nermin is his son.

 4        Q.   And was his son, do you know, found anywhere?

 5        A.   He was found in Hadzici, so he would have come from Orahovac and

 6     been executed in Orahovac.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's continue.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   What is this blackened part where there's conversation?

11        A.   A --

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  At - sorry -

13             THE WITNESS:  It's Zoran Petrovic speaking.  And his -- his

14     testimony was that he had the lens cap over the camera and he was taping.

15     And he's at his home with his family.  And I think he was saying he was

16     on -- he was having a telephone conversation.

17        Q.   And did the investigation fit a missing piece into this section?

18        A.   I don't think into this particular section.

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   Not the piece -- not a piece we found, anyway.

21        Q.   All right.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Stop for a moment.

23             Judge Mindua.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, I apologise, I fear

25     we might move on to another footage, so I would like to put the question

Page 6723

 1     now.

 2             Witness, on page 63 of the transcript, line 19, you talk about

 3     shots in the direction of the hills.  It's difficult for me to see who

 4     was firing these shots.  Do you know who was firing these shots, and do

 5     you know whether there was any retaliation or shots in response?

 6             THE WITNESS:  The footage referred to is a little bit further

 7     down.  You'll see, coming up, and it's the Praga that's shooting up into

 8     the hills, into the -- to the men, the wood walkers, that are walking

 9     through.  The -- in fact, Paras Stupar [phoen], the aimer for the Praga,

10     has stated that it was his Praga that was shooting up; he was ordered by

11     Ljubisa Borovcanin to shoot towards them for the cameras.  And, no, you

12     won't -- you won't hear or see any retaliation.

13             JUDGE MINDUA:  Right, I accept your answer for the time being.

14     Thank you.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   The soldiers with the guns, who was the man standing over them in

18     the last one, just --

19        A.   In this scene or in the last?

20        Q.   Sorry, in the last one.

21        A.   It's Ljubisa Borovcanin, deputy commander of the Special Police,

22     who is looking at the gun that the two - one's a PJP, and one's a

23     Sekovici brigade member - are showing him.

24        Q.   And where is this group of men?

25        A.   The men here are in Sandici meadow.  And as you saw the pan,

Page 6724

 1     commander -- Deputy Commander Borovcanin and the other two men are on the

 2     other side of the street from the meadow near the destroyed white house.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And this is at  I think we can

 4     continue it.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   And we're now seeing slow motion.  Was this just added by the

 8     Prosecution to clarify this situation, or is this part of the footage?

 9        A.   No, it was added by the -- it was added by the OTP.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, we've gone to a Studio B segment.  And do you

11     remember what this is going to be, to give us a preview?  Or should we

12     just play it?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's play it.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   So, do you recall -- that was a Studio B.  What, if anything, do

17     you recall on that Studio B segment that was not on the original?

18        A.   Only the two dogs.  You'll see the man that's sitting there that

19     looks off into the hills when he hears a shot fired.  That's on the

20     footage you'll see still.  It's on the original Petrovic footage, but not

21     of the dogs.

22        Q.   So someone cut out the dogs?

23        A.   Presumably, yes.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's keep playing.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 6725

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May we stop here.

 2             Judge Nyambe.

 3             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 4             At page 66 of the transcript, lines 5 to 7, you have stated:

 5             "The men here are in Sandici meadow.  And as you saw the pan ...

 6     and the other ... men or on the other side of the street from the meadow

 7     near the destroyed white house."

 8             Can you place the white house, exactly where it is?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, and not to confuse it with the white house in

10     Potocari; that's a completely different one.  We've referred to this as

11     the destroyed white house.  It is a white house, and it is destroyed.

12     It's a large house right across the street from Sandici meadow.

13             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Stopping at

17        Q.   What are these things?

18        A.   One's a -- one's a Praga, and one's a BOV, Bov.

19        Q.   And are they the anti-aircraft guns you've been talking about?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And what direction are they shooting at?

22        A.   They're shooting up into the -- the -- into the hills, so they're

23     facing towards Konjevic Polje at this point.  And we know that the

24     wood-walkers are moving along the ridge up to the upper left there.

25        Q.   And we saw some smoke detonations into the -- that were in the

Page 6726

 1     hills, just in the previous frame.  Where those smoke detonations were,

 2     is that the area where the Muslims were walking down towards the road?

 3        A.   Correct.  A number of, you know, many, many surrender and walk

 4     down towards -- towards the road, towards the back side of that destroyed

 5     white house.

 6        Q.   And will we come to a section that was cut out of the original

 7     and is in the Studio B segment here on this; do you recall?

 8        A.   I don't recall in quite this section.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Well, let's -- let's play it and see how

10     we do.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   Does that refresh your recollection a bit, that Studio B segment;

14     can you explain that, as you remember it?

15        A.   Yes, I forgot about that bit.  I was thinking it's pretty much

16     the same footage that you see on the original Petrovic video, but, yes,

17     they've zoomed in, and you hear Zoran Petrovic speaking over, doing the

18     narrative of what's happening, as you just saw in the subtitles.

19        Q.   Do you remember if you look very closely in that cut out bit

20     behind the smoke whether you can see anything?

21             And if you don't remember, that's fine, we'll just keep going?

22        A.   I'm not sure which you're referring to.

23        Q.   This Studio B segment that was cut out.

24        A.   Correct.  I'm not sure which bit.

25        Q.   The part we just played.  No?

Page 6727

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  We'll just continue playing.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Stopping at

 4        Q.   And I know this isn't your particular area of expertise so if you

 5     don't know, no problem, but that music that we start hearing, do you know

 6     where that music came -- is coming from?

 7        A.   You'll hear other music as well that's coming from the car.  I

 8     presume that this is perhaps coming from the car as well, though I know

 9     it is a bit odd.

10        Q.   And when you say "the car," do you -- has the investigation

11     determined whose car and who is in that car?

12        A.   Yeah, it's Deputy Commander Borovcanin's car, and they are

13     driving -- they drove from Potocari along the road and -- so that it's --

14     it's Borovcanin's driver.  Borovcanin and Zoran Petrovic are the people

15     in the car.

16        Q.   And who's filming?

17        A.   Zoran Petrovic is doing the filming.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Maybe stop for a moment.

21             Judge Mindua.

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. McCloskey, I'm very

23     sorry, once again.  I would like to put a question to the witness.

24             Madam, were you able to check with Zoran Petrovic if he found out

25     what was the purpose of this military operation?  Because we can hear

Page 6728

 1     shots, you said that these shots come from anti-aircraft guns, and we can

 2     also hear music in the background.  So do you know what the purpose of

 3     this operation, or were you able to find that out?

 4             THE WITNESS:  And you mean the operation meaning the shooting

 5     from the guns right there on the road?

 6             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.  That's what I'm

 7     talking about.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Not from him.  But when I interviewed the aimer for

 9     the Praga, what he told me was that they were driving along the road,

10     that Deputy Commander Borovcanin had stopped them, wanted them to stop

11     and to shoot up into the hills and for it to be filmed just, I think, for

12     an effect of, you know, they're -- they're, you know, fighting and, you

13     know, using their -- using their weapons.  So it was done for the

14     cameras, just exclusively, this few minutes of shooting.

15             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very good.  Thank you very much.

16             Judge Nyambe.

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Just a clarification from Mr. McCloskey.  Shall I

18     presume that you will be calling Zoran Petrovic?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  He testified before, and he is on our list

20     to testify again.

21             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that

25     there is a several-minute scene here in the footage and that this relates

Page 6729

 1     to the portion that Zoran Petrovic prepared and edited for his -- for the

 2     purpose of his report.  Could we please indicate which portion was edited

 3     so that there would not be a misunderstanding here, that this is an

 4     actual combat being waged.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, could you try to deal with that.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, we've been doing that.  The portions where

 7     we have Studio B segments that are not in the original are portions that

 8     the Prosecution believes were edited out, for some reason, of the

 9     original.  I thought I made that clear earlier.

10             But when we see a Studio B segment, it's an edited piece.  And

11     then after the Studio B segment, we go right back into the regular piece.

12     Sometimes that is not as clear as it could be, but as soon as that

13     Studio B segment, which is a very obviously grainy thing with the bottom

14     on it, as soon as that disappears, we are back to the regular one.  So

15     that's the way to tell the part that we believe is -- was clearly edited

16     from the original.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Does that help you, Mr. Tolimir?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             From 2.40.31 all the way to 02.45.00 we can see that they are

20     driving along the road and we can hear the music in the background, and

21     the witness said that this portion was edited for the purpose of

22     Petrovic's report.

23             So can we ask the witness to actually confirm that and confirm

24     from which point to which point on the footage this is recorded so that

25     it's in the record.

Page 6730

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't fully understand what the General says.

 3     She did not say it was edited.  We have a translation issue perhaps.  She

 4     said that a witness told her it was staged.  Whether that's true or not

 5     is another question, but --

 6             I'd appreciate it if we could try to avoid that while I am or the

 7     Judges are speaking because then the General can't hear me, and he needs

 8     to be engaged in this.

 9             So I think if he is referring to the part about the witness told

10     her it was staged, I think she can clarify that with him on cross.  But

11     for the General, actually edited parts, parts that are taken out, should

12     be made clear by the Studio B segments and the odd or different filming

13     segment so that you understand that's the -- what we believe is edited,

14     and the staged part is something else, that she is, of course, available

15     for on cross-examination.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

17             I think we need to stop the examination of this witness now.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, it's, Ms. Stewart

19     reminds me --  And we'll start up there.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

21             Ms. Gallagher, again we have to adjourn your examination.  And at

22     a later stage I'm sure the Prosecution will call you again.  Please be

23     reminded that still you are not permitted to have contact about your

24     evidence to either party.  Now you are free to leave the courtroom and --

25     because I have to discuss some procedural matters.  Thank you very much

Page 6731

 1     for your attendance.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Recently we have received a list of 26 items of

 4     documents which have a translation now, and they are uploaded.  The

 5     translations are uploaded in e-court.  I would like to ask the Registrar

 6     to make the necessary notification on the record.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The notification from

 8     the Prosecution that the Registry and the Chamber has received are for

 9     Prosecution Exhibits P00147, P00151, P00152, P00407B, P00506C, P00506F,

10     P00664B, P00748, P00749, P00753, P00772, P00773A, P00773C, P00810,

11     P00812, P00815, P00828, P00843D, P00850B, P00881, P00953, P00964, P00995,

12     P01011, P01016, P01077.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

14             The second matter is the following:  On the 30th of September, I

15     asked the Prosecution to provide us with hard copies of the videos played

16     in the courtroom.  In the mean time, we have received five of them, but

17     there are still some.  We would like to receive them.  And I would like

18     to remind the Prosecution to provide hard copies of the videos to the

19     Chamber and the Defence as soon as possible after the videos have been

20     played in Court or received into evidence.

21             The third matter has do with the next witness we will hear on

22     Tuesday next week.  As you will recall, the Chamber rescinded the

23     witness's protective measures by way of an oral decision on the

24     10th of September and pointed out that the Krstic transcript remains

25     confidential.  The Prosecution advised that it would endeavour to get the

Page 6732

 1     record opened up.  To date, Prosecution has not revisited this issue.

 2     Pursuant to Rule 75(G)(ii), this Chamber is responsible for lifting the

 3     confidentiality of that transcript if the Prosecution wishes to raise

 4     this problem.

 5             Is it your intention, Mr. McCloskey, to have the confidentiality

 6     lifted?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, please, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will take that into account and come back to

 9     that.  I take it that this is your oral submission with the aim to lift

10     the confidentiality?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I am officially revisiting

12     this issue and would make that a submission, an actual submission,

13     pursuant to your request, so that it's official.  Because, as you know,

14     it is an important issue, and I have spoken to the witness and I know

15     that he has no problem with that.  So, yes, thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I take it that has to be done before you call

17     this witness next Tuesday, and I hope we can perhaps deal with that at

18     the beginning of the testimony of that witness next Tuesday.  And we can

19     receive an oral response by the Defence on that topic.

20             Thank you very much.  I am advised that I forgot to state for the

21     record that the numbers of the documents -- the documents with the

22     numbers read out into the record are now admitted into evidence and no

23     longer marked for identification.

24             Thank you very much.  We adjourn and resume next Tuesday in the

25     afternoon, 2.15, in this courtroom.  We adjourn.

Page 6733

 1             Mr. Gajic, you wanted -- did you want to raise something?

 2             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't want to raise

 3     anything, I just wanted to answer a question that you yourself raised.

 4     The Defence does not object to rescinding the protective measures from

 5     the testimony of the witness that we are going to hear next week, who has

 6     already testified in the Krstic case.  We do not think that the

 7     transcript should be confidential.  There are no reasons for that

 8     anymore.

 9             And in terms of the CD, the Defence has been receiving CDs of the

10     videos that have been admitted into evidence.  That has been happening

11     quite regularly.  So we don't have any problems with that.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  And I apologise, I

13     misunderstood the fact that you were on your feet.  I thought you were

14     rising because we adjourn.  Thank you very much for this reply.

15             We adjourn.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day

18                           of October, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.