Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7065

 1                           Monday, 1 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon.  The next witness should be

 6     brought in, please.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome to the Tribunal.

 9     Would you please read allowed the affirmation on the card which is shown

10     to you now.

11             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

12     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  VINCENTIUS EGBERS

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.  I hope

16     you will receive Dutch interpretation.  Is that the case?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

19             Mr. Thayer has some questions for you, I suppose.

20             Mr. Thayer.

21             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to you and

22     Your Honours.  Good afternoon to the Defence.  Good afternoon, everyone

23     in the courtroom.

24                           Examination by Mr. Thayer:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

Page 7066

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   Would you please state and spell your name, for the record.

 3        A.   I am Vincentius Egbers, E-g-b-e-r-s.

 4        Q.   And, sir, do you recall testifying in this courtroom over a

 5     period of three days in October of 2006?

 6        A.   Yes, absolutely.

 7        Q.   And did you recently review all of your testimony in that case,

 8     the Popovic case?

 9        A.   That's also correct.

10        Q.   And when we met some weeks ago, were two errors noted at that

11     time?  And I'll go over them in a moment.

12        A.   Very well.

13        Q.   If we look at page 2715 of the transcript.

14             MR. THAYER:  And we don't need to call it up on e-court.  It's

15     pretty minor -- minor typos.

16        Q.   At line 25, there is a reference to the shelling of your position

17     at Bravo 1 wherein, at line 25, it states that:

18             "One of my privates was injured."

19             And, in fact, two UN personnel at that location were injured; is

20     that correct?  And you wanted to correct that?

21        A.   That is correct.  That is indeed what I wanted to correct.

22        Q.   And very quickly if we go to 2882 of the transcript.

23             MR. THAYER:  We don't need to put it up on e-court.

24        Q.   There is a reference at page -- I beg your pardon, at line 14

25     referring to the VRS shelling of the column of civilians fleeing from

Page 7067

 1     Srebrenica town to Potocari.  There is a reference to 40 metres from the

 2     colony, and you wanted to change that to 40 metres from the column; is

 3     that correct, sir?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Now, do you also recall reviewing your Popovic testimony in

 6     connection with your name being listed as a potential Prosecution witness

 7     in the ongoing case against Radovan Karadzic?  Do you remember doing that

 8     in 2009?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   And in that --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could the Court Usher assist the witness, please.

12             MR. THAYER:  I think the witness is -- just try not to

13     electrocute yourself.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your kind words.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

16             Mr. Thayer, please continue.

17             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   In connection with that review, and for the benefit of the

19     Defence, I am looking at the witness statement of the witness dated 4

20     September, 2009.  This isn't part of the package before this

21     Trial Chamber but for the benefit of the Defence.  During of course of

22     your review of the Popovic testimony in 2009, you noted that your answer

23     at page 2863, line 1 should have been:

24             "That is not correct."

25             You told the investigators at that time that, and I quote:

Page 7068

 1             "I did see armed Muslim men flaunting the fact that they had new

 2     weapons, but this was in July 1995 after the fall of the enclaves, I

 3     stated at page 2862, line 18, and not in May 1995."

 4             Do you recall telling the investigators that, sir, and do you

 5     stand by that correction?

 6        A.   Yes.  I agree with the correction.

 7        Q.   And just for -- to be a little even more complete, you further

 8     added, and I quote:

 9             "When I answered 'that's correct,' on page 2863, line 1, I was

10     still thinking of July 1995 since I had just previously been discussing

11     seeing Muslim men with weapons during the fall of the enclave in July

12     1995."

13             Do you recall saying that to the investigators as well?

14        A.   That's correct.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.  Please look at line 19 of page 3 --

16     no, sorry, line 21, of page 3, there is a reference to the Popovic

17     testimony in 2009.

18             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  That reference to 2009 -- and

19     I'll just clarify this with the witness.

20        Q.   2009 is when you met with the members of the Karadzic Prosecution

21     team and reviewed your Popovic testimony from 2006; is that correct, sir?

22        A.   Are you asking me or the Judge?

23        Q.   I am asking you, sir.  Do you recall that it was in 2009 when you

24     met with the members of the Karadzic Prosecution team and reviewed your

25     Popovic testimony from 2006?

Page 7069

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, bearing in mind, sir, those three corrections that

 3     we've noted for the record, can you attest that the testimony that you

 4     read accurately reflects what you said during the trial in the Popovic

 5     case?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   And can you attest that were you asked the same questions today

 8     that you were asked back in October of 2006 in the Popovic trial that

 9     your answers would be the same?

10        A.   That's correct.

11             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender P1142,

12     the transcript of the witness's testimony in the Popovic case.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

14             MR. THAYER:  And I have a number of exhibits to tender.  The

15     Prosecution would tender P1144 to P1166, recognising, obviously, that we

16     will deal with P1143, the NIOD statement, and P1167, which is the Dutch

17     version of the witness's OTP statement during his examination-in-chief,

18     since those two items were not part of the 92 bis package originally.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, the exhibits P1163 through P1166 and

20     67 were not used -- were used but not admitted in the Popovic trial.  Are

21     you going to use them today or tomorrow with this witness?

22             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I will use P1164, P1165, and P1166.

23     Upon an additional review are the unmarked maps which were then marked in

24     the Popovic trial by the witness.  So they are simply two maps which you

25     have a marked-up version of, so although it will leave two P numbers

Page 7070

 1     hanging out there, I think we will not -- we will withdraw our motion to

 2     tender those two exhibits, and I do intend to show the witness P1167.

 3     P1163 I had intended to ask the witness a couple of questions about, but

 4     then took it off my list to save some time, but now you remind me that

 5     it's one of the documents that were not actually admitted in the Popovic

 6     case.  So I think it is important enough for the Trial Chamber to have

 7     before it, so I will ask a couple of questions on that document, unless

 8     the Trial Chamber is willing to accept it based on its use in the Popovic

 9     trial.

10             Again, it's one of these documents that was shown to the witness,

11     he was questioned on it.  I think it's important, therefore, for the

12     Court to have the full context so you can see the document even without

13     me asking additional questions.  Absent that ruling, decision, then I

14     will use it today.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  The Chamber will receive the

16     documents P1144 through P1162.  As you know, the procedure this Chamber

17     is following would need an additional showing the relevance of the other

18     exhibits we were talking about.  You may tender them at the best point in

19     time.

20             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Before I read the

21     92 bis/92 ter summary for Mr. Egbers, I do have a couple of corrections

22     to note which are independent of the witness's testimony, and I don't

23     think there is any dispute about this.  I haven't had a chance to let the

24     Defence know, but they are simply corrections that -- two mistakes that

25     were made to some exhibit numbers in the transcript.

Page 7071

 1             The first is at transcript page 2917, one of the Defence counsel

 2     referred to Prosecution Exhibit P02045, that's a video.  However, that is

 3     the wrong cite.  There is no such video.  The correct number should be

 4     P02047.  I just wanted to note that for the record so there is no

 5     confusion when the Trial Chamber is reviewing the witness's testimony is

 6     looking for a P number that is incorrect.

 7             Similarly, at transcript page 2925, Defence counsel calls out

 8     Exhibit D225 and the proper number should be Exhibit 2D00025.  And,

 9     again, at transcript page 2928, Defence counsel calls out for

10     Exhibit D224, and the correct exhibit number is 2D00024.

11             I think the exhibits will make a little bit more sense when you

12     are matching up our exhibit list and the Registry's exhibit list with the

13     transcript.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  This is helpful.

15             MR. THAYER:  And I think my witness summary will take a couple of

16     minutes.  Again, this witness testified concerning a number of matters

17     which are central to the forcible transfer case.

18             The witness served in the Royal Dutch Army from 1988 to 1998.  In

19     July 1995, he was a first lieutenant serving as a platoon commander in

20     DutchBat's Charlie Company, located in Potocari.  By July of 1995, owing

21     to VRS restrictions on leave, his platoon was reduced from 30 to 20 men.

22     DutchBat could not carry out its mission owing to VRS restrictions on

23     fuel, ammunition, food, and leave.

24             On 8 July, the witness was ordered to take up a blocking position

25     to the west of Srebrenica town, near the road leading from Srebrenica to

Page 7072

 1     OP Alpha.  He commanded four APCs that remained at this location, near

 2     the area of Bajramovici and referred to as Bravo 1 for four days, from

 3     the evening of 8 July until 11 July.  From his position, he saw a VRS

 4     tank fire on Srebrenica and his position, as well as VRS soldiers with

 5     dogs entering homes in Pusmulici village and burning them.  He did not

 6     see the 9 July order from Major Franken to prevent with all available

 7     means a breakthrough by the VRS into the town.

 8             While he was at Bravo 1 on 9 and 10 July, the VRS fired directly

 9     on his position.  When his position was first shelled by the VRS, he was

10     not sure if he was the target because there was a Muslim artillery piece

11     nearby, an M-48, though it was never fired.  He, the witness, and two of

12     his men were injured by the VRS shelling and the APC was damaged.  When

13     he moved to another position nearby, the VRS shelled him again.  This was

14     direct shelling of his position which followed him as he drove away from

15     the position, so close air support was ordered.

16             After the close air support on 11 July, the VRS tank which had

17     been firing at his position was no longer firing, so he returned to the

18     Bravo Company compound in Srebrenica, where hundreds of civilians had

19     gathered.  He accompanied the fleeing Muslims north to Potocari, carrying

20     wounded and mentally ill on his APC.  On the way to Potocari, they were

21     shelled on the left and the right by the VRS.

22             On 12 July, the witness escorted the first convoy to Kladanj,

23     which had Major Boering toward the front, although they did not know

24     where the convoy was headed.  En route, people in Bratunac screamed and

25     threw things at the buses.  Along the road, Serb soldiers were deployed

Page 7073

 1     every 20 metres facing south, some firing.  There was an anti-aircraft

 2     gun on a vehicle near Sandici.  Near Nova Kasaba, he saw between 100 and

 3     200 men kneeling on a football field, lined up with their hands on their

 4     necks and guarded by the VRS.  He also saw a table and men walking on the

 5     road with their hands on their neck walking towards the football field.

 6             On 13 July, in the morning, he saw men being separated from their

 7     families in Potocari; the men were taken to the white house and the women

 8     were pushed inside the buses.  He then heard a woman screaming.  When he

 9     asked her what was happening, she told him that her man had been taken to

10     the white house.  He entered the house which was guarded by VRS soldiers

11     who told him that the men would be taken to Kladanj.  The men's

12     belongings were in front of the house.  The men were terrified, and when

13     they asked him what would happen to them, the witness repeated what the

14     VRS soldiers had told him, namely, that they would be taken to Kladanj.

15     However, the Muslims did not believe that and told him that they would be

16     killed.  They included elderly men and younger boys.  The witness saw a

17     convoy with the men and boys leave escorted by peacekeepers; however, he

18     was told that the VRS forced the peacekeepers out of their vehicle at

19     gunpoint near Bratunac.

20             Later in the morning of 13 July, he escorted another convoy to

21     Kladanj.  En route, Bosnian Serb soldiers took his helmet and vest at

22     gunpoint.  There were hundreds of Bosnian Serb soldiers along the road.

23     When he passed the football field near Nova Kasaba again that morning, he

24     saw a few hundred Muslim men there.

25             On the way back from Kladanj, Bosnian Serb soldiers stopped his

Page 7074

 1     car at gunpoint and took it.  He joined about a dozen other peacekeepers

 2     who had also been escorting convoys and who had been stopped by

 3     Bosnian Serb forces at Nova Kasaba and had their vehicles taken.  When he

 4     asked to see the commander of the local Bosnian Serb forces to complain

 5     about the Serb forces stopping the peacekeepers, taking their equipment,

 6     and threatening them, he was introduced to Major Zoran Malinic, who told

 7     him that he was in charge of the headquarters there and of the soldiers

 8     who had stopped the witness.  Malinic was headquartered in a nearby

 9     school building and had an office with his name on the door.  Malinic's

10     office had maps of the enclave marked with the UN OPs.

11             With the help of a Bosnian Serb soldier who translated, the

12     witness compiled a written complaint of the Bosnian Serb soldiers'

13     conduct towards the peacekeepers, including stealing UN vehicles and

14     equipment, and forcing a Dutch peacekeeper to ride on top of a stolen APC

15     driven by a Serb soldier and tell the Muslims in the woods it was safe to

16     come out.  Malinic told the witness that he did not have anything to do

17     with the troops who were along the road all the way the Bratunac and that

18     he had to contact his commanding officer, Colonel Beara, who was the

19     person who could get the peacekeepers returned to Potocari safely.

20             Nearby the school, there was a small structure in which 20 to 30

21     [Realtime transcript read in error "230"] men and boys were detained, one

22     of whom had a black eye and one of whom had a stomach wound.

23             The next morning, Colonel Beara arrived in a luxury civilian car.

24     Beara was a tall man with grey hair and the atmosphere of a colonel.  The

25     witness remembered him as a big, giant colonel.  The witness and Beara

Page 7075

 1     saluted each other and were introduced to each other by the Serb

 2     interpreter.  The witness gave Beara a written copy of his complaint

 3     about the conduct of the Bosnian Serb forces.  The witness also

 4     complained to Beara about Serb soldiers pretending to be UN

 5     peacekeepers --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, I think you should slow down a bit.

 7             MR. THAYER:  I will.

 8             The witness also complained to Beara about Serb soldiers

 9     pretending to be UN peacekeepers by wearing stolen UN clothes and driving

10     stolen UN vehicles.  Beara took the complaint and entered the school with

11     Malinic.  After about an hour -- I beg your pardon, after about half an

12     hour, Beara left.  The witness identified Beara from a video he was

13     shown.  Later that evening, after there were no buses left to be escorted

14     to Kladanj, the witness and the other peacekeepers were taken back to

15     Potocari.

16             When the witness returned to Potocari he typed up a report the

17     detailing, among other things, his experience at Nova Kasaba and contacts

18     with Malinic and Beara which he submitted the next day, 15 July 1995.

19             Now, I recognise that was a lengthy summary, Mr. President, but I

20     think it will help place in context some of the questions I have for the

21     witness, as well as, I expect, a certain amount of the cross-examination

22     and potential redirect, although I hope some of the redirect may be cut

23     off by some of the questioning I have now.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.  If you look at line 18 of

25     became 10, you will find the number at the end of this line.  Could you

Page 7076

 1     please clarify if this is the correct, to have "20 to 230."

 2             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President, for catching that.  That's

 3     "20 to 30."

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Sir, I have a few questions for you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I think it's again recorded in a different

 7     way, it should read "20 to 30" and not "230"; is that correct?

 8             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think we have got it now.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             MR. THAYER:

11        Q.   Sir, when you left the Royal Dutch Army in 1998, what rank did

12     you hold?

13        A.   At the time, I was a first lieutenant.  And in 1998, I

14     transferred to the airforce.

15        Q.   And would you please provide the Trial Chamber with just a brief

16     overview of your employment from the time you entered the airforce to the

17     present, including what rank you currently hold?

18        A.   In 2000, I started working as a captain for the

19     Royal Dutch Military constabulary, that's the military police for the

20     armed forces.  I am now a colonel for the same Royal Dutch Military

21     constabulary.

22             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we may have P1163.

23        Q.   Colonel, I would like to ask you a couple of questions about this

24     document.

25             Please the Trial Chamber just briefly what is this document that

Page 7077

 1     we are looking at?

 2        A.   This is a questionnaire drafted in English that was presented to

 3     me in 1995.

 4        Q.   And do you recall how soon after your departure from the enclave

 5     was this questionnaire given to you to complete?

 6        A.   I don't remember the exact date anymore.  Isn't it at the bottom?

 7        Q.   I am afraid it isn't, sir, but let me ask you this:  If we look

 8     at the first page, just to give us a range of possible dates, there is a

 9     question here, it says:

10             "It may be necessary for staff of the international tribunal to

11     conduct a further interview ... please indicate any date when you would

12     be unavailable."

13             You indicate here 10 to 18 August of 1995.  Is it thus fair to

14     say that whenever you filled this out it was sometime between the time

15     you left the enclave and the 10th of August, 1995?

16        A.   Of course, we completed this immediately after arriving in

17     Zagreb, but I am not sure what the exact date was.

18        Q.   Okay.  And just to be clear, Zagreb was your first stop after

19     leaving the Srebrenica enclave; is that correct?

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we go to the second page in this document, and I

22     think you testified to some degree about this topic in Popovic, but I

23     think it could bear a little bit of clarification or repetition here.

24     There is the question:

25             "How many persons carried out the capture?"

Page 7078

 1             And you indicated on the first page that your freedom of movement

 2     had been restricted, and here you write:

 3             "We were not captured.  We were free to go, but the BSA couldn't

 4     guarantee our safety.  We tried to drive back with three UN Mercedes.

 5     After 500 metres, two of them were stolen."

 6             Now, in Popovic, and I just note at transcript page 2760, you

 7     testified quite plainly that you were not free to go, and you said the

 8     same thing in the Krstic case.  So my question to you is:  Can you

 9     explain your answer here on this form, on this questionnaire, and what

10     you meant when you testified in Popovic and in Krstic that you were not

11     free to go?

12        A.   When I was at the school in Nova Kasaba, I was not handcuffed, my

13     hands were free, but that didn't mean that I could leave.  Guns were

14     pointed at me, but I wasn't locked up.  That's why my description was

15     somewhat awkward in this respect when I returned to the enclave.  We

16     couldn't leave, but we weren't trapped in a prison or cage as the Bosnian

17     men were kept.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution

20     would tender P1163.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as P1163.

22             MR. THAYER:  And if we may have P1164, please.

23        Q.   Now, sir, what we are looking at here on the left in English is

24     an English translation of a document which you filled out by hand in

25     Dutch.  The --

Page 7079

 1             MR. THAYER:  I note two things for the record, Mr. President.

 2     First is that the actual -- unfortunately, the actual Dutch official

 3     version which was referred to in the Popovic case, for some reason, was

 4     not part of the 92 bis package.  The translation -- the English

 5     translation and the B/C/S translation obviously are, and they are in

 6     e-court, but the original Dutch version was not part of the 92 bis

 7     package.  But we have uploaded it and the Prosecution would tender it as

 8     it is obviously the core document for the English translations which were

 9     part of the 92 bis package.  I'd just discovered that problem this

10     afternoon, and I think we've managed to get the Dutch version uploaded

11     into e-court.

12             Is it possible to display the Dutch version?  If not, I can put

13     it on the ELMO.  We can just look at it very quickly.  And then we will

14     go back to the respective English and B/C/S translations.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment.  We have a problem with our

16     screens.  We don't have the transcript at the moment.  I think we need a

17     technician to assist us.

18             MR. THAYER:  I think the time changes caught everything

19     off-guard.  Okay.  I have got a hard copy.  We can put the Dutch version

20     on the ELMO very quickly, please, with the assistance of the usher.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have the transcript in e-court at the

22     moment.  I was told the same happened to the other courtrooms.  We can

23     only follow the transcript on LiveNote, which brings up another problem.

24     We can't see the ELMO and the transcript at the same time, but we should

25     use the time as best as possible.

Page 7080

 1             MR. THAYER:  I will be very brief, Mr. President, with this

 2     document.  And what I can do is, once the witness has talked about a

 3     couple of the pages, I can circulate that hard copy to the -- to the

 4     Chamber, and if the Defence doesn't have a copy it can be passed on.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have now the document on the ELMO on our

 6     screens.  Is everybody able to see that document on the ELMO?

 7             Mr. Tolimir, do you have this document on the ELMO in front of

 8     you?  Okay.

 9             I take it that you can continue.

10             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Colonel, can you identify what this document is on the ELMO for

12     us, please?

13        A.   This is once again a debriefing form, a report that I completed.

14        Q.   Okay.  And if you would kindly just remove that first page and we

15     will look at the second page very quickly.  In English there is, in the

16     middle of the page, a paragraph which states the following:

17             "This is the end of the first operational de-brief."

18             Do you recall who was conducting this debrief?  Was it the UN,

19     was it the Dutch government?  Do you have any recollection?

20        A.   This was Dutch.

21             MR. THAYER:  And if we could just move the page up a little bit,

22     so we could catch the bottom, please.

23        Q.   Can you just read what number 2 there says into the record, and

24     we'll look at the translation shortly, but if you could just read what

25     number 2 in your handwriting says.

Page 7081

 1        A.   "Regarding our safety, filed a complaint with Major Zoran (see

 2     report head S2/3), escorted convoys as assigned, BSA unable to guarantee

 3     our safety."

 4             MR. THAYER:  And if we could remove that next page and look at

 5     the next document.

 6        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is, sir,

 7     please?

 8        A.   This is the document I drafted in the enclave on or around 15

 9     July 1995 in Dutch that I gave to my head of section 2/3.

10        Q.   And what is section 2/3, sir?

11        A.   In the battalion staff we had an officer responsible for

12     operation and intelligence, and I gave it to him.  S2 is intelligence; S3

13     is operation.

14        Q.   Okay.  So typically those are two separate cells, and in this

15     case, is it fair to say it was one person performing both jobs?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I think we are done with this document for

18     now.

19             MR. THAYER:  Now, Mr. President, are we technically capable of

20     looking at -- of having LiveNote and regular e-court?  Or are we -- we're

21     still down.  Okay.  Well, let's look at P1164.

22             And with the Court's permission, we'll just proceed then by

23     talking about what we have in front of us.

24        Q.   Sir, we are looking at an English translation on the left-hand of

25     the screen.  Is that a translation of the Dutch document that we just saw

Page 7082

 1     on the ELMO?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And you were shown these documents in the Popovic case,

 4     and I just wanted to go over a couple of matters with you.  If we look at

 5     paragraph 5, the question is:

 6             "Did you observe the selection of refugees by the BSA?  Please

 7     describe."

 8             And your answer was:

 9             "Yes, all the men were gathered near a house.  I was there.

10     Reassured and told them that they would also be taken off to Kladanj.

11     Unfortunately this was not carried out."

12             You testified in the Krstic case --

13             MR. THAYER:  And just for the record, this is at transcript pages

14     2886 to 2887.

15        Q.   -- that you believed at the time what you were told by these Serb

16     soldiers, that these men and boys in the white house would be taken, as

17     the women, children, and elderly had been, to Kladanj.  And you suggested

18     in your testimony in Popovic that you may have been naive at the time.

19     Can you please elaborate on that just a little bit for the Trial Chamber.

20        A.   The men were in a state of panic and they were happy I was there,

21     and I was trying to reassure them by asking the Bosnian Serb lieutenant

22     what was going to happen with them.  And in response, they told that

23     first they would see exactly who these men were and that they would then

24     be sent to Kladanj.  And, of course, I looked at it, being trained in the

25     Geneva Convention, that you treat people humanely, and I tried to

Page 7083

 1     reassure these people by sharing the story that I had been told with

 2     them.  And when they shook their head and moved their finger from ear to

 3     ear along their throats, they were trying to tell me that it was

 4     otherwise.  And although I was able to escort their wives and children up

 5     to Kladanj in the packed buses, from what I understand it didn't happen

 6     on this transport.  The escort, after a while, with the weapons on the

 7     head was removed from the transport by the Bosnian Serbs, with the weapon

 8     point at the heads, and he couldn't tell me what else happened with these

 9     buses.

10             What I saw in the house were rooms filled with men, boys, old

11     men, who were being gathered there while their wives and children were

12     sent on to the buses.  That made a deep impression on me.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MR. THAYER:  I understand that other folks in the courtroom might

15     not be able to see what I am seeing.  Okay.  I am looking at a transcript

16     at page 19, line 3, and it reads --

17        Q.   And I don't know if you have it in front of you, sir:

18             "The escort, after a while, with the weapons on the head was

19     removed from the transport with the Bosnian heads with the weapon point

20     at the heads and he wouldn't tell me what else happened with these

21     buses."

22             I think something got lost along the way, sir, to the transcript.

23     Can you just, please, clarify, maybe repeat your answer.  What you are

24     talking about in this portion of your answer?

25        A.   You want me to start at the beginning?

Page 7084

 1        Q.   No.  If you could just tell us what you were referring to with

 2     the escort, and apparently there was a weapon pointed at somebody's head

 3     along the way, and if you could just share that portion of your answer

 4     with the Trial Chamber, because it didn't come out intelligibly on the

 5     transcript for some reason.  What happened to the DutchBat escort who

 6     tried to escort the bus with the men and boys to Bratunac?

 7        A.   That convoy was escorted by Lieutenant Versteeg,

 8     V-e-r-s-t-e-e-g, Versteeg.  And he told me that a gun was pointed at his

 9     head and that he had to return when the transport rode on.

10             MR. THAYER:  And just for the Trial Chamber's convenience, that

11     very far, Lieutenant Michel Versteeg is witness number 28 in this case,

12     whose testimony has been accepted pursuant to Rule 92 bis, so his

13     testimony is available for the Court's review.

14             Now, if we could just go to the next page in both versions,

15     please, and I think we will actually have to advance one more in each.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am afraid that we don't have the right spelling

17     of the name of this officer on the record.  The name is, in fact,

18     V-e-r-s-t-e-e-g, Versteeg.

19             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, again, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now it's correct.

21             MR. THAYER:  Okay.

22        Q.   Sir what we have here on the screen, hopefully what you are

23     looking at as well, on the right-hand side is the English translation of

24     the report that you spoke about a few moments ago that you saw in the

25     original Dutch on the ELMO that you wrote on or about the 15th of July,

Page 7085

 1     1995; is that correct?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  And I, again, just note for the record there

 4     is a translation error.  In the heading on the English it should read,

 5     "Head of S2/4," not head of "S2/34."  I think that comports with what

 6     Colonel Egbers told us when he was looking at the original Dutch version.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have this number in both versions, in the

 8     B/C/S and in the English version.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President, I see it's been replicated.

10        Q.   Now, just to make one matter clear from the Popovic case.  If we

11     look at paragraphs 6, 7, and 8 of your report, and I am not going to ask

12     you to recount what this information is in these paragraphs, but can you

13     tell the Trial Chamber, please, what was the source of the information in

14     paragraphs 6, 7, and 8?  Who or what was the source of this information?

15        A.   As I said regarding paragraph 6, I am recounting what

16     Major Zoran - as I called him at that time - told me.  I am recounting

17     what Major Zoran told me.  Major Zoran Malinic, born in 1961, is the

18     source of the story.

19        Q.   And who was the source for the information in paragraphs 7 and 8

20     as well, sir?

21        A.   That information is from the same major.

22        Q.   And if we look at paragraph 10, you have reported here that you

23     met with Colonel Beara, told him what had happened, which had been

24     written down, and you note that Colonel Beara has the originally, a copy

25     is held by section 2/3.  What you are referring to here in this paragraph

Page 7086

 1     10, what is the document?

 2        A.   When I arrived at the school, I asked for the highest ranking

 3     officer, and I wanted to make an arrangement with him to be able to share

 4     our opinion and our feelings with him.  I was received by a soldier

 5     speaking -- who spoke Serbo-Croat and English, and he advised me to draft

 6     a joint document in which I stated on behalf of the United Nations what

 7     was wrong, such as driving through the forest in an armoured vehicle.  On

 8     the front of the armoured vehicle was a Dutch sergeant, and he had to

 9     call out to the Muslims in the forest that it was safe and that they

10     should come to him.  I also reported the stolen and used vehicles,

11     uniforms, and helmets.  There was no longer any difference between true

12     UN soldiers and Bosnian Serb warriors.  We wrote that down and I

13     presented that to Colonel Beara.

14             I -- I submitted the copy to my own section 2/3, and I never saw

15     it again.

16        Q.   And, sir, did you become aware that at some period of time

17     following the take-over of the enclave by the VRS forces, that members of

18     DutchBat destroyed sensitive documents and other materials so that they

19     would not fall into the hands of the VRS forces?

20        A.   I saw that.  They burned a lot.

21        Q.   So have you ever actually seen a copy since the day you submitted

22     that copy of the complaint to your S2/S3, have you ever seen a copy of

23     that since?

24        A.   Never again.

25        Q.   And how did the document that we saw on the ELMO a little while

Page 7087

 1     ago in Dutch, the report, this 15 July report that we are looking at the

 2     translation of now, how did that make it out of the enclave?

 3        A.   I brought that with me, myself.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, at this time I would formally move

 5     to, I guess, add the Dutch original that actually forms the basis of the

 6     document that's already been admitted to our Rule 65 ter list of exhibits

 7     and tender it along with the B/C/S and English translations which already

 8     exist.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Dutch original is already admitted?

10             MR. THAYER:  No, no.  The Dutch original is what I am moving to

11     admit.  It forms the basis of the English translation and the B/C/S

12     translations which have already been admitted.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I take it this is uploaded into e-court.

14             MR. THAYER:  It is now, actually, as we were -- as we were

15     working it made it onto the system.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             MR. THAYER:  And I think it can retain the same 65 ter number if

18     you think that makes it easy for everybody.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  And this will be admitted into evidence

20     all together, the Dutch original, the English, and the B/C/S translation

21     as P1164.

22             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             Now, if we may have P1167 on e-court.

24        Q.   Sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is that we

25     are looking at?

Page 7088

 1        A.   This is a witness statement that I made on 24 October, 1995.

 2             MR. THAYER:  And if we could scroll down just a little bit.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise your signature anywhere on this page?

 4        A.   My signature appears at the left.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MR. THAYER:  I note for the record that the English version of

 7     this statement has been admitted as P1145, and there is a B/C/S

 8     translation of that, naturally.  What we are looking at now was not

 9     admitted in the Popovic case, although it was shown to the witness.  What

10     I'd like to do is ask Colonel Egbers to look at a couple of the

11     attachments to this, one of which was also shown to him in the Popovic

12     case.

13             So if we could go to page 10 in the e-court, please, we will be

14     looking at two sketches so there is no translation as yet.

15        Q.   Do you see a sketch, sir, before you?

16        A.   Yes, absolutely.

17        Q.   Okay.  We can see a circle at the bottom right-hand with some

18     letters and then some other markings.  Can you please just take a moment

19     and explain to the Trial Chamber what this sketch shows; and there is

20     also some Dutch, and if you would kindly translate some of the Dutch

21     portions for the Trial Chamber.

22        A.   The circle at the bottom of the sheet of paper depicts the

23     enclave Srebrenica with some observation posts.  The line directed toward

24     Bratunac depicts the road to Bratunac.  Then if you look from the word

25     "Bratunac" to the left, the road continues, and I've indicated during the

Page 7089

 1     interrogation that the road was filled with Bosnian Serb soldiers.  It

 2     reads "four loops [phoen]," that's a piece of anti-aircraft weapon with

 3     four barrels pointed at the forest.  Just a bit further on --

 4        Q.   Let me just stop you for a minute because we are going to do a

 5     little bit of marking and translating as we go.  So if you would take the

 6     stylist, there should be a little magic pen with the court assistant's

 7     help here.  Ah, you got it.  Okay.

 8             You just referred to four lopes loops, or an anti-aircraft gun.

 9     If you could just circle what you are referring to and maybe write AA gun

10     next to that so we know what you are talking about, please.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Okay.  And we can see a lot of little circles that are -- you've

13     drawn on along the roads and some arrows pointing in various directions.

14     Can you tell the Trial Chamber what those little circles are?

15        A.   Those little small circles depict groups of up to three soldiers,

16     and the arrow is the direction of their line of vision.  They were

17     focussing in the direction of the enclave, that's what they were looking

18     at.

19        Q.   Okay.  And sir, if you would, please continue describing what

20     you've drawn here.  And if you think it helps to mark additionally any of

21     the elements, please do.

22        A.   I would like to apologise for this unclear drawing, but I didn't

23     realise that I was going to need to explain it 15 years later.  Past the

24     anti-aircraft gun, I've written:  "Roadblock Konjevici."  The road was

25     closed off there and we had to turn left in our vans.  The road from

Page 7090

 1     Konjevici to Simici, that road was also filled with soldiers.  There were

 2     a lot of Bosnian Serb soldiers, and again they were looking in the

 3     direction of the enclave.  And I've drawn a small football field, I'll

 4     circle it, that's the Nova Kasaba football field where I saw all those

 5     men kneeling with their hands on their neck on the football field.  And

 6     just a bit further I wrote down, I'll underline this school, that was

 7     where we were being held.

 8             The buses rode on toward Kladanj, and I'll underline that as

 9     well, that's where the buses stopped.  The large arrow that I drew, and

10     that's a bit strange because I wrote that in English, Muslim people,

11     that's the direction in which the Bosnian Serb men and boys were walking

12     toward the free Bosnian area.

13             And, in fact, all of this is a trap, a trap by the Bosnian Serb

14     soldiers to catch the Muslim men.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let me just stop you right there, sir.  I think I heard

16     you say that that arrow represented the Bosnian Serb men and boys walking

17     to the free Bosnian area.  Did you mean Bosnian Serb men and boys or

18     something else?

19        A.   I meant the refugees that were in Srebrenica and independently

20     walked to Tuzla, or, in any case, the free area, and those were the

21     Muslim youths and men.

22        Q.   Okay.  And just lastly, the -- in the upper right-hand corner,

23     there is something written in Dutch, and if you would kindly just

24     translate what you've written there.  Or, perhaps, just read it in Dutch

25     and the translators will do it for us.

Page 7091

 1        A.   I -- the English word doesn't come to mind, but a "fauk [phoen]"

 2     is something -- so a trap or a net in this case, that's something that

 3     fish swim into, and I hope our interpreters can interpret that properly.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  In the context mentioned by the speaker, it is

 5     a net, says the translator.

 6             MR. THAYER:

 7        Q.   Okay.  And what else have you written here?

 8        A.   It reads:  "Net by BSA, Bosnian Serb army, to catch BiH, Muslim

 9     men."

10        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, Colonel.  That was very helpful.

11             MR. THAYER:  If we could save this document now.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received, but I would clarify the

13     situation.  The original sketch was an attachment to the document P1167

14     or P1145.  In fact, what is the difference between these two documents?

15             MR. THAYER:  It's attached originally to P1167, which is the

16     Dutch language original witness statement.  When the statement was

17     translated into English, the sketches didn't carry over, that's why we

18     have to work with the Dutch original because that's the version that has

19     the sketches attached to it.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  And we want to receive the

21     number of the marked sketch.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1302 [Realtime transcript read in

23     error "P10002"], Your Honours.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have not the right number on the

25     screen.  Perhaps it can be repeated.

Page 7092

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, the number is P1302 [Realtime

 2     transcript read in error "P1032"].

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's again wrong, 1302.  Thank you.

 4             We have still a problem with e-court.  There is no connection on

 5     some screens, only one Judge is in the position to follow the transcript,

 6     not the other two judges.  I don't know what is happening here, but

 7     Mr. Thayer, please carry on.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  If we could go to the next page in the

 9     document, please.

10        Q.   I am not going to ask you to go into too much detail about this

11     sketch, Colonel.  Can you just tell the Trial Chamber who drew it and who

12     made the markings in English?

13        A.   This is also my handwriting.  I drew and wrote this on 24

14     October, 1995.

15        Q.   And without going into the particulars, because I think they are

16     pretty self-explanatory, can you just tell the Trial Chamber what this

17     sketch depicts?

18        A.   At the top you see the road from Simici to Konjevici -- may I

19     writes on this?

20        Q.   Certainly.

21        A.   I am circling the roadblock.  Here I am circling the roadblock

22     that stopped all our vehicles.  The vehicles were parked there on the

23     square.  Here men and boys were being held.  I already stated there.  We

24     were staying at the school, whereas here dogs were held.  On the square

25     were mortars and Bosnian Serb armoured personnel carriers.

Page 7093

 1        Q.   And you just referred to some dogs.  Can you tell the

 2     Trial Chamber what you were able to observe about the dogs that were at

 3     this location?  For what purpose could you discern that these dogs were

 4     present?

 5        A.   They were German shepherds, aggressive dogs, used by the

 6     servicemen.  I saw similar dogs days earlier in the enclave in the house

 7     by Pusmulici, I am not sure whether they were the same dogs.

 8        Q.   And did it appear to you that these dogs were part of the

 9     military unit that was headquartered here or were they part of some other

10     unit, from what you could see?

11        A.   They were part of the unit of that Major Zoran.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, Colonel.  I think we can save this document and

13     move to the next one, please.  When we get the number.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This marked sketch will be received as an

15     exhibit.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1303 [Realtime transcript read in

17     error "P10303"], Your Honours.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have again a problem with the number

19     of this document.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  The number again is P1303.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry, Mr. Thayer.

22             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  If we could turn to the next page, please.

23     And may I proceed, Mr. President?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please, carry on.

25             MR. THAYER:

Page 7094

 1        Q.   Colonel, we have a sketch in front of us.  Again, the heading is

 2     "Nova Kasaba."  Please tell the Trial Chamber who made these markings and

 3     whose writing is on this sketch?

 4        A.   This is not my handwriting but that of the person who

 5     interrogated me.  I did sign it at the bottom right of this page.

 6        Q.   And again without going into too much detail, can you please tell

 7     the Trial Chamber, just generally speaking, what does this sketch depict?

 8        A.   You see two vehicles driving north along the football field, a

 9     large bus with refugees, and behind that my Mercedes, and the little dot

10     is me.  To the right is a football field where Muslim men and youths were

11     kneeling, and people, Muslim men and youth, along the road on their way

12     to the football field.  And on the football field I saw about 20 soldiers

13     and a table.  I was driving at 40 to 45 kilometres an hour along this

14     football field.  I was riding behind the bus.

15        Q.   Now, Colonel, in your Popovic testimony you stated that you

16     passed by this football field on more than one occasion on the 12th and

17     13th of July.  When we see here on the sketch where its written:  "Almost

18     whole field covered with people," was that the case for all the occasions

19     when you saw this football field; for example, the first time on the

20     12th, or did it apply to the 13th or both?  If you could just tell the

21     Trial Chamber or give the Trial Chamber some indication when the football

22     field was almost completely covered with people.

23        A.   That was the first time I drove past it on the first day of the

24     deportation.  Later on, it was not as full any more.

25             MR. THAYER:  Okay, Mr. President.  The Prosecution would tender

Page 7095

 1     P1167.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 3             And I would like to ask the witness one question related to the

 4     sketch on the screen.  You told us that we can see your signature on this

 5     page and the handwriting was done by the person who interviewed you.  Who

 6     made this the sketch itself, the football field in the street and the

 7     cars?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not entirely certain anymore

 9     whether she did that or I did that, but in any case it's exactly as I

10     remember it.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I see we're coming up on

14     the break and I am about to start a new series of questions, so with the

15     Court's indulgence, if we could take the break now that would be

16     convenient.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a good proposal.  Has everybody the

18     transcript in e-court again on the screen?  All problems solved,

19     Mr. Gajic?  Yes, okay.  That's fine.

20             We must have our first break now and we will resume quarter past

21     4.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

Page 7096

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, please continue.

 2             MR. THAYER:

 3        Q.   While we are dealing with, Colonel, your 24 October 1995 witness

 4     statement, let's look at the English translation for a moment.

 5             MR. THAYER:  This is P1145.  And there is a B/C/S version of that

 6     as well, but if we could P1145 in e-court, please.

 7        Q.   Okay, sir, we have here the English translation of your OTP

 8     witness statement from the 24th of October, 1995.

 9             MR. THAYER:  If we could go to page 5 in both the English and the

10     B/C/S version, please.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There is a loud typing noise from your side.

12     Perhaps you can use the other microphone, it could reduce the amount of

13     noise.

14             MR. THAYER:  Will do.  Ms. Stewart is --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  She's always busy.

16             MR. THAYER:  She's always busy.

17        Q.   Now, if we could focus on the paragraph that begins:

18     "Convoy 3 ... ," please, there is a reference.  Well, let's just take a

19     look at the paragraph, and you refer here to another one of the convoys

20     carrying the women, children, and elderly.  You said:

21             "I rode with Lutke again and we were last in the line.  We were

22     regularly made to stop by Bosnian Serbian soldiers.  They wanted our

23     bullet-proof vests, helmets, and weapons."

24             And you go on.  And then you state:

25             "I heard over the radio that other vehicles were being robbed as

Page 7097

 1     well."

 2             Do you see that, sir, a little bit further into the paragraph?

 3     Just take a moment and let me know when you read that -- reach that

 4     point.

 5             You state that you heard radio reports that this stripping of the

 6     UN escorts was also happening to other Dutch peacekeepers.  Based on your

 7     own experience and what you heard being reported, does this appear to you

 8     to be a random occurrence of stopping, stripping, disabling, the

 9     peacekeepers, or did it appear to you to be co-ordinated in some fashion?

10        A.   We drove behind the bus and were in touch with each other over

11     the radio, and I understood that all white UN vehicles were being stopped

12     and that our helmets and bullet-proof vests were being requested.  Only

13     by pointing at my rank was I able to retain my own things.  This had

14     happened to all of us.  It was not an isolated occurrence that it

15     happened to somebody, this was carefully thought out.

16             MR. THAYER:  Now let's move to a different document if we could,

17     please.  This is P1148.

18        Q.   Okay.  Just to save a little bit of time, sir, what we have here

19     on the right is an English translation of a debriefing statement that you

20     gave to the Dutch authorities.  That statement, and its original form

21     being in your own language, so what we are looking at here is the English

22     translation.  This is a statement that you gave on 11 September, 1995.

23     Do you recall providing this debriefing statement at Assen?

24        A.   Absolutely.

25             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we could go to page 4, please, of this

Page 7098

 1     document.  And this will be page 4 in both the English and the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   I want to draw your attention, Colonel, to the very first

 3     paragraph where it says:

 4             "With each new battalion, the BSA had clearly shifted the

 5     boundaries.  As a result, the enclave was getting smaller all the time.

 6     As January 1995 approached, the BSA also came closer and closer to the

 7     enclave borders.  After a while UNPROFOR was no longer allowed to enter

 8     the so-called Bandera Triangle.  It was unclear why.

 9             "Both the Muslims and the Serbs did whatever they pleased in the

10     Bandera Triangle.  If the Serbs wanted to stop a convoy, then they did,"

11     et cetera.

12             Can you please explain a little bit more what you were talking

13     about here and what was going on with respect to the activity of both the

14     Muslim fighters, or presence in the triangle, as well as the VRS presence

15     in the Bandera Triangle.

16        A.   As you did indeed read out, it turned out that with each new

17     battalion, the borders were once again a subject of debate.  And upon our

18     arrival in January 1995, we observed that the BSA was moving closer in

19     the direction of the enclave.  We had just arrived in the enclave and did

20     not know how to respond to this.  Then some Muslims took their own

21     initiatives to ensure that their enclave didn't shrink further.  They

22     wanted to ensure that the Bosnian Serbs remained at a distance and

23     through this measure deprived us of access to the Bandera Triangle.  We

24     were in there, in fact, but it's not so that Serbs and Muslims were

25     intermingled or that it wasn't clear.  The enclave border remained in

Page 7099

 1     effect.

 2        Q.   And when you say in this briefing that both the Muslims and the

 3     Serbs did whatever they pleased in the Bandera Triangle, can you provide

 4     any examples or just provide a little bit more clarity about what you are

 5     referring to?

 6        A.   The Bosnian Serbs fired grenades from outside the enclave in the

 7     triangle.  We heard many explosions to the south of OP Alpha, and the

 8     Muslims prevented us from getting access to that triangle so we didn't

 9     know exactly what they wanted to do over there.  So it's not so much that

10     it was unclear.  The border remained in effect and was enforced.  There

11     was additional shelling by the Serbs in that triangle, and the Muslims

12     tried to resist.

13        Q.   Now, during the VRS attack on the enclave, say from approximately

14     6 of July through the fall of the enclave, on or about the 11th or even

15     the 12th of July, depending on how you look at it, did you become aware

16     ever of any information indicating that there was any Muslim resistance,

17     reinforcements, military activity, that was coming out of the Bandera

18     Triangle, weapons, men streaming out of the triangle, any reports of any

19     kind of such activity with respect to the Bandera Triangle?

20        A.   No, it wasn't that way at all.  The attack of the Bosnian Serbs

21     was directed at the south of the enclave.  Nothing at all was happening

22     in that Bandera Triangle.  There were no warriors or arms there.  There

23     wasn't anything there.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. THAYER:  If we could go to page 15 of this document, please,

Page 7100

 1     and that's in both versions.  I want to ask you a quick question about a

 2     topic that I don't think was raised in the Popovic case.

 3        Q.   About three quarters of the way down the English, and it's going

 4     to be about smack in the middle of the B/C/S, there is a reference here

 5     to your return to the compound, and I take it that's your return to the

 6     Potocari compound, the Charlie Company compound.  And you refer here to:

 7             "Before the lighting point, he had seen a dead woman who was

 8     probably overcome due to heat and exhaustion."

 9             Now, I am not sure you have ever been asked in the Krstic case or

10     the Popovic case about this dead woman that you saw.  If you could cast

11     your memory back a little bit and just share with the Trial Chamber

12     whatever you can recall about where exactly you saw this dead woman and

13     anything he else about the circumstances.

14        A.   I escorted the first transport of buses, and all those buses

15     stopped in the middle of the forest.  We got out to see what was wrong.

16     The very first convoy stopped and the women and children thought that

17     they were going to be killed there.  From the bus, they made motions

18     across their neck from their left to their right ear; after all, we

19     stopped in the middle of the forest.  I tried to reassure them and they

20     basically passed the body of the dead woman outside -- over the heads of

21     the other women.  So I walked on to the point where the buses were being

22     unloaded further on.  It was well organised.  The doors of one bus

23     opened, the women and children were told to alight and to walk on to a

24     certain road without knowing exactly where.  This happened in the forest

25     at that border where most of the women thought that they were going to be

Page 7101

 1     killed.

 2        Q.   Just to further orient ourselves, this is at the location from

 3     which these women, children, and elderly had to walk an additional

 4     several kilometres to get to the free territory; is that correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   And do you recall anything further about this woman who died, her

 7     approximate age, were you told anything about what caused her death?

 8        A.   At that point, I couldn't pay the attention to her that I would

 9     have liked to because at other points women and children had to alight,

10     and that was a very emotional occurrence.  It was about 35 degrees

11     centigrade.  She wasn't old, around 40, I believe.  But as for the cause

12     of death, I was unable to determine, but I assume it had something to do

13     with the emotion, the heat, the tension.  It could have had something to

14     do with those factors.  She wasn't -- she didn't have any gun-shot

15     injuries or anything like that.

16        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at another document, Colonel.

17             MR. THAYER:  That's P1143.

18        Q.   Again, just to move things along a little bit, what we have here

19     on the left is a transcript, in Dutch, of your 2 September 1999 interview

20     with the representatives from the NIOD or NIOD organisation, the Dutch

21     Institute for War Documentation.  Do you recall providing that

22     information, sir?

23        A.   Yes, absolutely.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. THAYER:  I believe there is a B/C/S translation which should

Page 7102

 1     be available in e-court.  If not, my friends have been given a copy.

 2     There we go.  Okay.  If we could have page 14 in English and page 21 in

 3     the B/C/S, please.  We will be looking at paragraph 206.

 4             THE WITNESS:  It is in Dutch on the right.

 5             MR. THAYER:  If we can get the B/C/S up, that'd be great, please.

 6     And in the meantime -- and again, that's page 21 in the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   If we look at paragraph 206, Colonel, you say:

 8             "I did see a lot of lines on the way there, a lot of

 9     communication equipment, telephone lines that went along the cliffs.

10     About ten for sure.  They did have good communication lines.  Not in the

11     air, because then they could be located.  I sometimes used my radio, but

12     the Serbs did not like that because the Muslims could locate you and then

13     they could fire mortars at you there.  They thought that the Muslims

14     could do all that which, of course, wasn't so, and so they used land

15     lines a lot."

16             My question, Colonel, is when you refer to:  "They having good

17     communication lines," what you are talking about?  Who is "they," and if

18     you could give some examples of some of the communications lines that you

19     observed and where you saw them?

20        A.   [Interpretation] What I saw was that from the school where the

21     headquarters were and Major Zoran, communications -- communication lines

22     ran in the direction of Nova Kasaba.  And when there was any

23     communication along these lines, this was impossible for others to tap

24     into.  So that's why military units always use these lines to communicate

25     exclusively with each other without others eavesdropping.  And my

Page 7103

 1     impression was that this was well organised.  Many lines were deployed to

 2     different telephones.

 3        Q.   And can you explain what, again, what the reaction was of the

 4     Serb soldiers to you when you tried to use your UN radio.  What was their

 5     response?  What did they tell you?

 6        A.   I was prohibited from doing this and a gun was pointed at me.

 7     They were all armed and they were afraid that others would be able to

 8     eavesdrop or determine their position.  That's what they told me.

 9        Q.   Now, going back to the period of the attack itself on the enclave

10     from 6 to, say, 11 July, 1995, how were your communications abilities,

11     yours personally, as a DutchBat officer, with your other units with your

12     command, and, from what you could hear from the radio traffic, among

13     other elements of DutchBat during this attack?

14        A.   On my blocking position 1, I always had good radio contact with

15     the captain supervising me, but I also had to ensure with my vehicle that

16     other vehicles in the south of the enclave would be able to have contact

17     with this commander as well.  So I had radio contact and that was

18     maintained by my vehicle radio.

19             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we could go to page 17 in the English and

20     page 26 in the B/C/S, please.  We'll be looking at paragraph 264.

21        Q.   If we look at paragraph 264, you say:

22             "There was also a big threat when I came back with all those

23     refugees.  A stream of people came in.  Lieutenant Versteeg stood there

24     with a radio in order to act as backup as a forward air controller.  At

25     that point he also had to call off all the missions because the

Page 7104

 1     Bosnian Serbs were threatening us, not only to butcher the 30 Dutch

 2     people in Bratunac but also all the refugees and the UN personnel in

 3     Srebrenica."

 4             Can you help place when this threat occurred?  Just give us a

 5     little bit of context for this threat?

 6        A.   On that day, I was very close to the attack by the NATO F-16s on

 7     a Bosnian Serb tank.  Because the tank had stopped firing, I was able to

 8     go to the village of Srebrenica where, together with all refugees, I

 9     walked in the direction of Potocari.  The mortars dropped to the left and

10     right of the refugees walking together with us to Potocari, the

11     5 kilometres.

12             When I arrived at the headquarters, I spoke with Versteeg who

13     told me that we had to stop the air attacks immediately because otherwise

14     we would be bombed.  That's why he assigned the pilots to cease their

15     close air support.

16        Q.   So this information contained here in paragraph 264, the threat

17     to kill the 30 Dutch people in Bratunac but also the refugees and other

18     UN personnel, who related that threat to you?

19        A.   That information came from the Bosnian Serbs.  Exactly how it

20     came to him is a mystery to me, but he was expected to carry out the

21     assignment to cease the close air support immediately.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we could go to page 35 in the English, and

24     this will be page 54 in the B/C/S.

25        Q.   I want to look at paragraph 586 and then put a couple of other

Page 7105

 1     things to you before asking you my question.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The B/C/S page is not the right one.  I think it

 3     must be the previous one.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could go back one

 5     page.  Yes, thank you.

 6        Q.   You say that:

 7             "We only got permission to fire at the Serbs.  When I reported

 8     that the Serbs seemed to be approaching the town of Srebrenica in a

 9     column of units, walking in a column, I was told 'Fire at them.'  My guns

10     had a range of only 800 metres and they were kilometres away.  It didn't

11     make sense."

12             Now you testified in the Popovic trial that you never saw the

13     order from then Major Franken through Captain Groen to use all available

14     means to prevent a breakthrough by the VRS into the town.  You never saw

15     that order.  Here you state that you had permission to fire at the Serbs

16     and you were told to fire at the Serbs.

17             Can you explain what your understanding of your order was at that

18     point, what the circumstances of your situation was if you never saw what

19     we refer to as the Groen order from Major Franken?

20        A.   Major Franken put together a fax in which he formulated

21     instructions and he sent that fax to Major Groen, as the commander of the

22     Bravo Company in the south of the enclave.  I was out in the field, not

23     at a post, and of course I never sought that order.  That's unusual.

24     It's unusual for him to give me instructions over the radio, and this was

25     a translation of his instruction to me in the field.

Page 7106

 1        Q.   So is it fair to say that your understanding of your assignment

 2     was the same as that contained in the Groen order but you just never saw

 3     it.  You never saw the actual order, but the substance of the order was

 4     communicated to you.  Is that fair to say, or do I have it wrong in some

 5     form?

 6        A.   That's correct.  I took the question:  Have you seen the orders

 7     literally, and the response to that was:  No.  But I did observe how

 8     Major Groen, at the time Captain Groen, translated that into instructions

 9     to me.

10        Q.   Now, Colonel, you testified in the Popovic trial, and this is at

11     page 2796, and I quote:

12             "I don't think that we were under attack by Muslim fighters."

13             You testified in the Popovic case about Private van Renssen being

14     killed by a Muslim fighter.  You testified about your own APC coming

15     under fire from Muslim fighters in Srebrenica town when they thought that

16     you were withdrawing, possibly for good, your APC came under fire.  Can

17     you explain to the Trial Chamber your answer that despite those

18     incidents, you did not believe that the UN was under attack by Muslim

19     forces?

20        A.   At Bravo 1, blocking position 1, we were positioned with two

21     APCs.  We were the only protection remaining for the Muslim warriors

22     present there.  They all -- they were all very lightly armed.  You could

23     say that all they had were rifles.  They never threatened me, but one of

24     them, perhaps in a moment of panic, shot at our vehicle when we were

25     assigned to proceed to the city of Srebrenica.

Page 7107

 1             The strange thing is that the board gunner of our vehicle is not

 2     armoured, so he was unprotected on top.  That's how it was decided.  That

 3     made him very vulnerable, just like Raviv van Renssen who died because of

 4     one of warriors wanted to keep the vehicle there and responded that way.

 5     I did not feel threatened by the Muslim warriors, more so by the Bosnian

 6     warriors who fired at us with tanks.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask what you mean by "Bosnian warriors," in

 8     your last sentence?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are the refugees in the

10     enclave with a rifle.

11             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  I think matters got us slightly more confused

12     there.

13        Q.   Colonel, and I'm just looking at the transcript, the transcript

14     reads:

15             "I did not feel threatened by the Muslim warriors, more so by the

16     Bosnian warriors who fired at us with tanks."

17             I guess my first question is:  Who had the tanks?

18        A.   I used the word "Bosnian Serb," but perhaps it would be better to

19     say Serb in this case, or BSA, the tanks were in the hands of the Bosnian

20     Serbs.  They fired at us.  And I was also fired at by a Muslim warrior

21     with a rifle, but I didn't feel threatened by that.  When I arrived in

22     the city of Srebrenica, where thousands of refugees, men, women, a big

23     jumble, were I mounted the vehicle to show that we were staying there and

24     that we would not all retreat to safety.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

Page 7108

 1             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.  On page 43, line 6 to 7, Mr. Thayer is

 2     reading to you a portion from a previous transcript where you are

 3     reported to have said:

 4             "I did not feel threatened by the Muslim warriors, more so by the

 5     Bosnian warriors who fired at us with tanks."

 6             Can you just clarify for me, were these -- does this relate to

 7     the incident where a DutchBat soldier was killed?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was -- earlier there was just

 9     a reference to the killing of Raviv van Renssen, the Dutch soldier who

10     was killed in the enclave.  I wasn't present there.  All I can do is say

11     what I have heard about that.  What happened to me was that with an APC I

12     drove from my blocking position to Srebrenica, and the armoured vehicle

13     was shot at with a rifle there, and the board gunner sustained mild

14     injured in that incident, but it's not comparable to the shooting by the

15     Bosnian Serbs, or the firing by the Bosnian Serbs with tanks, at our

16     location.

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Okay.  So you are saying the incident referred

18     there is not the same as the incident you were involved in here?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was involved, when I read 586,

20     I -- we are talking about 586, aren't we?

21             MR. THAYER:  Yes, we are, just to clarify, two things, we are

22     referring to paragraph 586 of the NIOD statement, and maybe I can clarify

23     one matter.  The portion that I was quoting to the witness, and I'll

24     quote it again:

25             "I did not feel threatened by the Muslim warriors, more so by the

Page 7109

 1     Bosnian warriors who fired at us with tanks."

 2             That portion is of a transcript that just appeared a few moments

 3     ago.  And if I'm not mistaken, that was an incorrectly interpreted answer

 4     from the witness.  So we are not talking about, as I understand it, any

 5     Bosnian Muslims with tanks.  I -- if I understand it, Colonel Egbers has

 6     clarified that he's referring to Bosnian Serb forces with tanks.  Maybe

 7     we can start there and then get back to 586 to help you answer the

 8     question.

 9        Q.   First of all, just so the record is completely clear, were you

10     ever referring in your answer to Bosnian Muslim forces with tanks?

11        A.   No, I didn't do that.

12        Q.   And the incidents that you've testified about today where your

13     APCs did come under light arms fire by Muslim fighters, you said that you

14     weren't -- you didn't feel threatened by that, but those incidents were

15     separate from the incident in which Raviv van Renssen was killed by

16     Muslim fighters; is that correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   And turning back to the paragraph 586, when you refer to being

19     ordered to fire at the Serb column that you saw approaching Srebrenica,

20     can you give us some idea in terms of, if not the actual date, if you

21     can't remember the actual date, that's okay, but approximately how many

22     days after Private van Renssen's death did the events in paragraph 586

23     occur?

24        A.   I believe that's two days later.

25             MR. THAYER:  And he's back in Your Honour's hand.

Page 7110

 1             JUDGE NYAMBE:  No, no.

 2             MR. THAYER:  I am sorry for the intervention.  I just wanted to

 3     make it clear because I don't think I had made it clear enough what I was

 4     quoting from when I quoted from that prior answer.

 5             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I appreciate your explanation, actually.  It

 6     clears some confusion in my mind.  I still have one question for the

 7     witness.

 8             The attack on your APC came two days after the DutchBat soldier

 9     Renssen was fired at and killed, and you still did not feel threatened by

10     this attack on your APC two days later?

11        A.   Of course I was very shocked by the death of a soldier from our

12     unit, but my assignment was to put up a blocking position elsewhere,

13     coincidentally in the same area where the Bosnian Muslim warriors were

14     and I started by contacting them.  I did not feel threatened by them.  I

15     even asked them not to fire because otherwise the Bosnian Serbs would

16     think that I had fired at them and they obeyed.  The piece of mortar that

17     was hidden there was never fired.

18             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you very much for your clarification.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has a question.

20             JUDGE MINDUA:  [No interpretation]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have interpretation at the moment.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Is it better now?  Can you hear us?  Can you

23     hear the English interpretation on the English channel?  Thank you very

24     much.  Sorry.

25             Could the Judge, please, repeat the question.  Thank you.

Page 7111

 1             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to ask a

 2     question regarding the terminology you used.  Up until today we are kind

 3     of used to the term VRS, that is the BSA Army in English, and we are used

 4     to the terms ABiH, so the army of the Muslims of Bosnia.

 5             One witness came to testify and talked about Muslims, civilian

 6     Muslims, who took place in an incident which caused the death of soldier

 7     van Renssen.  However, today you also talked about Muslim warriors, so

 8     Muslim soldiers, and you also talked to us about Bosnian warriors.  You

 9     told us that you were attacked by a tank of -- filled with Bosnian

10     warriors, so I would just like to make sure I understood you correctly.

11             When you were talking about Bosnian soldiers, or warriors as you

12     mentioned, you are talking about the VRS or the BSA, so the Serb Bosnian

13     army, I guess.  So if that is the case, when you are talking about Muslim

14     warriors or combatants or soldiers, are you talking, in fact, about

15     Muslim civilians, the same people mentioned by that particular witness,

16     or are you actually talking about the ABiH?  Now we are faced with four

17     different terms, so that's just what I wanted to clarify.  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The men in the enclave were not a

19     military unit as we know them to be in western countries.  There were

20     many refugees gathered but those -- that did not make them soldiers.

21     Some were armed but that doesn't make them an army or a brigade or a

22     division.  Although the Bosnian Muslims, the BiH, told with pride about

23     their huge fighting forces in the enclave.  That was only propaganda.

24     They had nothing.  The men who were wandering around there with rifles

25     were not organised.  When I consider the Bosnian Serb army, the BSA, they

Page 7112

 1     all had uniforms, tanks, communication devices, that was an army in the

 2     enclave.  They were refugees with -- who were armed.  I can't attribute

 3     the same status to them as to the Bosnian Serb army.  They communicated

 4     through notes and pencils, and when the Bosnian Serbs started the attack

 5     on the enclave in the south, they openly started wearing uniforms and

 6     bearing arms hoping to be able to do something against the attack, but

 7     they didn't have anything.  You really can't call it an army.

 8             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.  I

 9     understood your answer.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe again.

11             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Just to follow-up on the question from

12     Judge Mindua, and really this is a hypothetical question.  Suppose there

13     was a unit of soldiers who were suddenly - how shall I put it? - who are

14     suddenly without a leader, without uniforms, wandering around but armed,

15     what would you call that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you could see that at the

17     moment in question.  When there was an attack on the enclave, they will

18     act in a structured manner and that's not the case.  What I saw was a

19     number of willing and able young men taking rifles to the south from

20     blocking position 1 to try to neutralise a tank.  Most men later

21     assembled in the north of the enclave to break out, but there was no

22     pattern or structure in the enclave that was visible to us.  We knew who

23     the military points of contact were, but you can't compare that to a real

24     army in which soldiers are trained and armed.

25             JUDGE NYAMBE:  No, I am just trying to understand the -- sorry.

Page 7113

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Pardon, pardon.

 2             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Oh, I can continue.  Yes.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  [Dutch on English channel]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Stop for a moment.  We have here now the Dutch

 5     translation.  We have heard the Dutch interpretation.  Hopefully we are

 6     back now on the English.

 7             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes, I just wanted you to explain for me the new

 8     terminology that has been introduced that Judge Mindua has referred to in

 9     describing what was happening in the enclave.  Is the term "warrior"

10     meant to cover, for example, the hypothetical question I've put to you, a

11     band of former soldiers may be confused, running around, are those the

12     ones you are calling warriors?  Or who are the warriors you are referring

13     to, basically?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am referring to refugees who were

15     given rifles and had to join the fighting without military training or

16     uniforms but who did their best to defend the enclave.

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you very much.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, you get the floor back, but I would

19     like to note that you already used more than two hours instead of one

20     hour you have indicated before the witness appeared in court.

21             MR. THAYER:  I am --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead, please.

23             MR. THAYER:  -- painfully cognisant of that fact, Mr. President.

24     I am winding down.  I do feel like I am wading in molasses, but I think

25     again that, if I may say so, that some of these issues are central issues

Page 7114

 1     to not only to Colonel Egbers's Popovic testimony that we are fleshing

 2     out and that's why I have gone into those topics, because even after a

 3     second or third review of the Popovic transcript of his testimony, some

 4     matters can still not make sense, and that's one of the reasons why I

 5     want to go over some of the these areas, but I am winding down.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am not worrying about the content of your

 7     questions but the length.  This is -- of course the Chamber has to make

 8     clear that we should try to be as speedy as possible.

 9             MR. THAYER:  I will do my best, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Based on your -- just following up on some of the questions from

11     the Trial Chamber, Colonel, based on your observations, based on your

12     experience in the enclave, the men who you described as willing and able

13     to do their part to defend the enclave, based on what you saw, were those

14     men capable of handling, let's say that they had been armed with more

15     sophisticated weaponry, or let's say that they had been armed with more

16     weaponry, based on what you had seen in terms of their training and

17     military abilities, would they have been able to make good use of that

18     equipment?

19             And my second question again, I am sorry to but two in one, but

20     my second question is:  Did you see any evidence of these willing and

21     able soldiers being armed to the teeth, armed with sophisticated

22     weaponry, every willing and able-bodied men armed with some type of

23     weapon?  Did you see that yourself?

24        A.   No.  I saw refugees who dug trenches and later walked about armed

25     to ensure that the attack would stop, but from my point of view that's

Page 7115

 1     not an army.  And I apologise for the confusion that I caused, but there

 2     was an army outside the enclave, the Bosnian Serbs.  Inside were

 3     refugees, some of whom were armed.  But from my professional perspective,

 4     they did not constitute an army, they were not a force, they do not

 5     communicate with one another, and they were poorly armed.

 6             Did this answer your questions sufficiently?

 7        Q.   I think at this point I would actually ask the

 8     Honourable Judge Nyambe just to make sure that, Your Honour, that your

 9     question was answered sufficiently.  I think some of the follow-up

10     questions I had were trying to get at the nub of Your Honour's question

11     in terms of what you would call whatever the forces were that you saw

12     constituting the Bosnian Muslim resistance to the VRS.  You've said it

13     wasn't an army, what would you call it if there -- if you do have a word

14     that you would call it, if you don't then, okay, but if there is a word

15     that sort of captures how you would describe them in one word, what would

16     that word be?

17        A.   [No interpretation]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't receive interpretation at the moment.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A group of men, some of them in

21     uniforms, some of them armed with small calibre weapons, as they are

22     called, so rifles, some of them had an RPG, but far too few in number to

23     do anything against an organised army.  Basically they were armed

24     refugees.

25             MR. THAYER:  If we could go to page 38 in the English, which is

Page 7116

 1     page 58 in the B/C/S.  This will be our last paragraph in this document.

 2     And actually we will need to see the Dutch version for a moment.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am very sorry I have to interrupt you again,

 4     Mr. Thayer.  Judge Mindua has a question related to that.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I am sorry I have to intervene

 6     once again.  I hope this is my last question for this witness today.

 7             Witness, what you have just said is very important for me in view

 8     of the things that we have discussed so far.  When we are talking about

 9     combatants or civilians who were disarmed, they didn't have their own

10     structure, they didn't have -- they didn't undergo military training.

11     You, as a military commander, you belonged to an army where you were

12     properly trained, and you also had appropriate equipment.  How would you

13     react if you asked to restore peace within the armed civilians --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

15     continues] ... the military care about structure.  The military care

16     about structure.  I am waiting a moment.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we don't have French interpretation.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military care about structure,

19     there should be leadership.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now it's working.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They should be armed, not only with

22     rifles, but to prevent an attack on the enclave, they should have

23     mortars, tanks, thousands of soldiers to protect that.  They need to be

24     trained and there should be communication devices within the enclave.

25     And I didn't see any of those.  The commander of the artillery device at

Page 7117

 1     blocking position 1 wrote a brief note to Ramiz with my request that the

 2     artillery device not be used.  That's what he had.

 3             So from my perspective, there was no organised army in the

 4     enclave, but there was outside the enclave.  The Bosnian Serbs of course

 5     did have that tank, communication devices, uniforms, training.

 6             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer, but I

 7     think we were talking at cross-purposes here.  This was a hypothetical

 8     case.  You are a military commander.  On your side you had an organised

 9     army and equipment, and on the other side there was a population, a

10     civilian population, among whom some were armed.  And in this

11     hypothetical example -- for example, you are asked, you, as a military

12     commander, to restore order.  How would you react?  Would you apply

13     military measures of the kind that you would apply among your own troops?

14     That's my question, and it's rather hypothetical, I agree.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If there were armed civilians who

16     were not organised, you can't regard them as an army.  And, of course,

17     throughout the world there were armed citizens and they will have to be

18     disarmed when a conflict arises in a certain region.  And it's difficult

19     to say how you would do that in practice in a hypothetical situation.

20     Disarming is a separate project, and you would need to contact the

21     representatives of that civilian population and ask them to organise

22     that.

23             There are different opportunities, not merely military ones, and

24     that hypothetical situation conceivably it might be agreed how we should

25     proceed.  But if I may be so free as to refer to the conflict where I was

Page 7118

 1     present, that didn't happen there and they were fired at with tanks,

 2     mortars, and their houses were set on fire.  The people were driven --

 3     they were driven away.

 4             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, back to you again.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Just quickly to follow-up on His Honour Judge Mindua's question,

 8     can you tell the Trial Chamber what efforts DutchBat was able to take to

 9     disarm people with guns inside the enclave that patrols, for example,

10     would encounter in the field or in town?

11        A.   From January until June 1995 there were many patrols of the UN

12     soldiers in the enclave to see whether any weapons remained.  If we saw

13     people who were armed, we would pursue them into their houses to

14     confiscate their arms and to hand them over to the manager of the weapon

15     collection point in Srebrenica.  Patrols went out daily with these

16     instructions.  Only when the attack on the enclave was launched did the

17     Muslims bear their arms openly.

18        Q.   And how successful would you characterise the peacekeeper's

19     efforts at seizing these weapons that you should occasionally see people

20     in Srebrenica bearing?  You had testified that they had run into their

21     homes, for example.  How successful overall would you say DutchBat was in

22     disarming, to that degree, those who were armed in the enclave?

23        A.   If we saw their arms, we would act, but at the end of the enclave

24     it turned out that there were many arms that we hadn't seen or they were

25     being brought into the enclave at that point.  But we did what we could,

Page 7119

 1     we couldn't do any more than that.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Now, back to P1143.  Great.  We will need to go back

 3     one page in the Dutch, please.

 4        Q.   Sir, I would like you just to read paragraph 624 into the record.

 5     I think when we met, you noted that there was a somewhat significant

 6     error in the English translation of this portion.  So I just want to

 7     straighten that out, so if you would please read paragraph 624 into the

 8     record.

 9        A.   "Only of that Versteeg, who was at the compound, and of others

10     who heard the threats of the BSA that mortars would fire at us from

11     Bratunac, those are the only effects that I heard.  And, however, I did

12     hear mortar fire to the left and to the right of the refugees.  They kept

13     on firing to, as it were, keep people going."

14        Q.   Now, my first question, sir, is:  With respect to the mortar fire

15     that you've testified about in Popovic and you've spoken about today, to

16     the left and right of the column of refugees fleeing from Srebrenica to

17     Potocari, did you just hear that mortar fire or did you actually see it

18     landing yourself?

19        A.   I both heard and saw it.

20        Q.   Okay.  And in this last sentence here where it reads in the

21     English translation:

22             "They continued to shell in order to stop the movement, as it

23     were."

24             I take it that's the direct opposite of what is in the original

25     Dutch version which is:

Page 7120

 1             "They continued to shell in order to keep the column moving."

 2             Is that correct?

 3        A.   That is correct.  It says, "They kept on shelling to keep it

 4     moving, as it were."

 5        Q.   And do you stand by that statement, sir?  Is that accurate?

 6        A.   Of course I do.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Just a couple more questions for you, Colonel.

 8             MR. THAYER:  But first, Mr. President, I would like to tender

 9     P1143 before I forget.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

11             MR. THAYER:

12        Q.   Now, somewhat related to this passage that we just read from your

13     NIOD statement, in the Krstic case, and this is at transcript page 2214

14     if anybody is following that, you testified with respect to the VRS

15     shelling of Srebrenica town, you testified, and I quote:

16             "I think they wanted to scare the refugees who were in the city

17     of Srebrenica so that they would go north to Potocari and they could

18     enter the town.  They were scaring them, and, of course, they were

19     wounding them, killing them."

20        A.   Was that a question?

21        Q.   I just wanted to make sure you got the translation.

22        A.   Thank you.

23        Q.   Okay.  My first question is:  Do you stand by that testimony?  Is

24     that testimony accurate and do you stand by it?

25        A.   [Interpretation] Absolutely.

Page 7121

 1        Q.   Now, based on the shelling which you observed from Bravo 1 from

 2     your other observations being in the town itself, what options did the

 3     civilian population in Srebrenica town have in terms of where it could

 4     go?

 5        A.   Only to Potocari.

 6        Q.   And, again, why?  What was happening that made Potocari the only

 7     place that those civilians could go?

 8        A.   Because thousands of people were in the village of Srebrenica on

 9     the market-place and the mortars were being fired by the Bosnian Serbs or

10     there was firing of different things, so the only road free to them was

11     the road to the north to Potocari.  The road to the south was, of course,

12     closed by the Bosnian Serbs.

13        Q.   I thank you, Colonel.

14             MR. THAYER:  I have no further questions at this time.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the last sentence of the answer was not

16     complete.  The road to the south was, of course?  And there is a word

17     missing.  I think I heard "closed."  Perhaps you can clarify it with the

18     witness.

19             MR. THAYER:

20        Q.   Colonel, I don't know if you heard the Presiding Judge's

21     intervention, and I don't know if you have the transcript in front of you

22     to see exactly what he's referring to, but is there a missing word in

23     your last answer, at least in terms of the transcript that you can

24     clarify.

25        A.   Of course the people could no longer go to the south because the

Page 7122

 1     Bosnian Serbs were there.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. THAYER:

 4        Q.   So what was the case in terms of the road?  Just to clarify that.

 5     The transcript reads:

 6             "The road to the south was ..."  and then there is nothing.

 7        A.   Closed [Interpretation] Closed.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Judge Nyambe.

11             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I just have one more question for the witness.

12     Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of your testimony is that

13     you disarmed the population, the Muslim population, and put their arms in

14     a secure area.  Do you know whether these demobilised Muslim soldiers

15     left the enclave or stayed in the enclave?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The weapon collection point where

17     the arms of the Muslims were stored existed before we started working in

18     the enclave.  In the past, as agreed, weapons were surrendered there and

19     maintained by the Muslims who surrendered them or handed them over, or

20     where those men or women were I can't tell you that.

21             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, now it's your turn with your

23     cross-examination.  I just want to note that we didn't receive a list of

24     documents you are going to use during the cross-examination.

25             Mr. Gajic.

Page 7123

 1             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have not submitted

 2     the list because we intended to use only the documents provided by the

 3     OTP in their list.  However, given the nature of this witness's

 4     testimony, and especially in its part, in the course of the evening we

 5     will submit a list of some 10 or 15 documents that we intend to use with

 6     this witness tomorrow.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

10     like to greet everybody in the courtroom including this witness.  May

11     God's peace reign in this house and may God's will and not mine be done

12     in these proceedings.

13             Since no documents have been submitted, as Mr. Gajic as just told

14     you, we are going to use the witness's statement, number P1145 which was

15     tendered by the OTP and which has its translation.

16             Could the Court please produce P1145 in e-court.  Thank you.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see the second page

19     of the statement to give the witness an opportunity to see what I am

20     going to ask him.  Thank you.  Could we please focus on paragraph 2,

21     lines 7, 8, and 9 on page 2.  Page 2, paragraph 2, lines 7, 8, and 9.  We

22     can see that on the screen.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] And we are talking about your statement, sir,

25     number P1145.  You said in your statement at the beginning of paragraph

Page 7124

 1     2:

 2             "On Saturday, in July 8 1995, soldier van Renssen died from a

 3     bullet wound in his neck."

 4             I just read out this sentence to indicate the beginning of the

 5     passage that I am interested in.  Now you look at the lines 7, 8, and 9,

 6     where you say as follows:

 7             "We did that because we wanted to find the location of Bosnian

 8     Serbs and the Muslim fighters, and also to see where the confrontation

 9     line was."

10             My question is this, sir --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.  My question is this:  Can you tell us why was it that

14     on the 8th of July, in the evening, you checked the positions of the Army

15     of Republika Srpska and the positions of the Bosnian Army as you stated

16     in lines 7, 8, and 9 of your statement?  Thank you.

17        A.   That evening, I drove in my APC to the south and my instructions

18     were to check whether Bosnian Serbs had penetrated further into the

19     enclave and how the Muslims had responded if that were indeed the case.

20     And my instructions were also to avoid becoming involved in any defensive

21     position, that was why I was driving to the south.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Further on in line 10, below line 9, you say this:

23             "About 4 kilometres before these posts, hand-grenades were thrown

24     between our vehicles by the Muslim fighters."

25             I am going to read one more sentence:

Page 7125

 1             "I know they were Muslim fighters because they were not wearing

 2     uniforms and because it was still Muslim territory."

 3             Could you please explain where this activity took place.  You

 4     said that that was about 4 kilometres before the post.  Which post was

 5     it, 4 kilometres before the Muslim post or 4 kilometres after the Muslim

 6     post or 4 kilometres before the posts of the Serbian Army?  Could you

 7     please be more precise and tell us what you meant when you stated this?

 8        A.   We drove from the city of Srebrenica to the south, and

 9     approximately 4 kilometres before the observation posts inside the

10     enclave this incident occurred.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Please, could you tell us why did that incident take place and

17     why did Muslims throw hand-grenades at your vehicles?  Thank you.

18        A.   That evening in the south of the enclave there was heavy

19     shooting.  We were not warring parties in this.  The white UN vehicles

20     were not involved in the fighting that was in progress in the south.  Why

21     the two Muslims threw hand-grenades at my vehicle is a mystery to me.  I

22     would imagine, but then I am speculating, that it was because the rising

23     tensions in the south at that time and the first armoured vehicle that

24     had left the observation post in the direction of Potocari.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We are talking about the 8th of July when

Page 7126

 1     soldier van Renssen died, they threw grenades at you again.  And you say

 2     that after that you returned.  You say that:  They returned and we headed

 3     for the Bravo Company in Srebrenica.  Did the Muslims want to intimidate

 4     you?  Why were they attacking you?  Why you, given the fact that you were

 5     there to defend their positions?  Thank you.

 6        A.   I don't know why they threw them.  It was an act by an individual

 7     Muslim.  I reported it and received new instructions to go to blocking

 8     position 1.  It may relate to the fact that several armoured vehicles, at

 9     least one in any case, with the soldier van Renssen were riding in the

10     direction of Potocari so that nobody else was involved in their Defence

11     in the south.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Was your task to defend the Muslim positions in the

13     south?  Thank you.

14        A.   Which Muslim positions are you referring to?

15        Q.   Thank you.  I am talking about the positions from which Muslims

16     had thrown grenades at you when soldier van Renssen died and when they

17     hit your two tanks.  Were you there holding a position with those two

18     tanks or were you just passing by?  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

20             MR. THAYER:  It's Monday afternoon court, Your Honour.  We have

21     had a lot of glitches.  I am not sure what's responsible for this one,

22     but I am not sure there has been any reference to any two tanks by either

23     the witness or, until now, by General Tolimir.  It may be an

24     interpretation issue or something else, but I don't think there has been

25     any reference to tanks, so if we could have some clarification about what

Page 7127

 1     General Tolimir is referring to, I think that would be helpful.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed.

 3             Mr. Tolimir.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Thayer, for jogging

 5     my memory.  Those were not tanks.  They were two APCs that were targeted

 6     by the Muslims and they threw grenades between them.  The witness stated

 7     that.  I can remind you well.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Tell me, why did they throw grenades between your two APCs, why

10     did they kill soldier van Renssen, why did they open fire at you?  Why

11     did they do all that, whereas you did not fight them?  On the contrary,

12     you had been given the green light to fight against the Serbs.  Thank

13     you.

14        A.   On 8th July, we had not received any green light.  I was en route

15     to the south of the enclave to see where exactly the Bosnian Serbs might

16     have entered the enclave.  While I was en route, Muslim warriors --

17     Muslims, did indeed throw a hand-grenade among our APCs.  Why they did

18     that is something I don't know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You confirm that they did throw grenades, just as you

20     stated in line 10.  I was supposed to tell you exactly where you stated

21     that but now you have confirmed that you know where you stated it.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We must have our second break now, Mr. Tolimir.

23     We will assume quarter past 6.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 5.52 p.m.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 7128

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2                           --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Please continue.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Awhile ago I asked you the question:  Why did the Muslims start

 7     killing you as of the 8th and to target you with weapons, although you

 8     had not provoked them in any way, you had not deserved it from them in

 9     any way, as it were.

10             Does this mean perhaps that the Muslims resorted to terror in

11     order to force you to move in front of them towards the VRS?

12        A.   You're asking me why they started killing us.  I note that one of

13     our soldiers was indeed killed, probably by a grenade thrown by a Muslim

14     warrior.  I was not present at that point but I was told that the

15     observation post was fired at by a Serb tank, that they were barely able

16     to leave the observation post and that, perhaps, the Muslims in the

17     surroundings of the observation post thought that they were on their own.

18     When facing Serb tanks, you're alone in that case.

19             Later that evening, when I drove to the south in my armoured

20     vehicle to see whether there might be a roadblock somewhere, two grenades

21     did, indeed, fall in between my armoured vehicles.  I was able to drive

22     back to the compound of the Bravo Company and received different

23     instructions.  If you ask me why these Muslims tried to keep us in the

24     south, all I can answer is that probably your tanks in the south of the

25     enclave were the reason.

Page 7129

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Was it perhaps the case that the Muslims had the

 2     intention of attacking the UNPROFOR in order to elicit a reaction;

 3     namely, their airforce targeting Serb positions?  Do you think that there

 4     was anything that was indicative of that?

 5        A.   I've seen that men dressed in civilian attire in the enclave

 6     threw those grenades at me.  They were very clearly Muslims, so I can't

 7     imagine that they hoped we would think that they were Bosnian Serbs.  The

 8     answer is, therefore, no.

 9        Q.   Fine, thank you.  We are talking about the Muslims at this point,

10     whom you saw near your positions, and you say on page 3 -- or, rather, on

11     page 2 of this statement, the first paragraph, lines 18 to 21, I will

12     quote it for you.  You say:

13             "That evening and that night, we noticed different groups of

14     Muslim fighters in the area.  Generally speaking, they wore camouflage

15     uniforms or Ukrainian uniforms.  They had bought the uniforms in Zepa

16     from some Ukrainians.  I saw that they were carrying AK-47, Kalashnikovs,

17     and machine-guns.  The groups were moving in a north-westerly direction

18     away from the enclave."

19             My question is:  Did you have information before that they bought

20     weapons and uniforms from Ukrainian soldiers in Zepa, or was that the

21     first time that you noticed that?

22        A.   That was the first time.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Were all the Muslims in the position which you have

24     described wearing such uniforms and carrying such weapons which they had

25     procured in this way?  Thank you.

Page 7130

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I didn't object the first time that

 3     the question was asked, but I need to now just to clarify matters.

 4     General Tolimir asked the question at page 64, line 24:

 5             "My question is:  Did you have information before that they

 6     bought weapons and uniforms from Ukrainian soldiers in Zepa, or is that

 7     the first time that you noticed that?"

 8             And the witness answered.

 9             Up to that point there had been no indication in the statement.

10     The portion of the statement with which the witness affirmed dealt solely

11     with uniforms.  And there was no information about any weapons being sold

12     or bought -- sold by the Ukrainians or bought by the Muslims from the

13     Ukrainians.  I let that go.  But then it's incorporated again into this

14     next question, so I would ask to make sure that the witness understands

15     that he's being asked two questions, one about uniforms and one about

16     weapons, and whether he has any information about actual weapons being

17     purchased from the Ukrainians by the Bosnians.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Presiding Judge.  I am

20     not quite sure what Mr. Thayer is driving at.  I am actually quoting the

21     witness, so let the witness give us an answer, both to Mr. Thayer's

22     question and to my question.  Thank you.

23             MR. THAYER:  Again, my problem, Mr. President, is he's not --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

25             MR. THAYER:  -- quoting the witness.  He's building in premises

Page 7131

 1     into the questions, and if he wants to ask those questions, I've got no

 2     problem with that.  If he wants to ask the first question:  In addition

 3     to uniforms, did you have any information that the Ukrainians sold

 4     weapons to the Bosnians?  I have no problem with that question.  But

 5     building it in without any foundation, and when we have an answer to a

 6     compound question, that's part of the problem that we have here is we've

 7     got multiple premises being built into a question with no real foundation

 8     laid.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To shorten this discussion, I would like to ask

10     the witness:  Sir, do you have any information that the Bosnian Serbs

11     got -- sorry, I mean Bosnian Muslims got any weapons from the Ukrainian

12     soldiers?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that point, I didn't know

14     anything about it.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What do you mean by "at that point"?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked whether I knew that at

17     the time.  All I can do is describe what I saw at the time which was that

18     some wore camouflage gear, others were armed, but I didn't know at the

19     time what the origin was of those arms.  I still don't know, but they

20     were, in my view, in my opinion, Ukrainian uniforms.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Have you now some knowledge about weapons gained

22     from the Ukrainians?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any knowledge of that

24     now either.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

Page 7132

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You need your microphone.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I ask a leading question or can

 5     I ask a question about anything that I need to know and do not know.  I

 6     fail to comprehend why I am being limited in asking my questions.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Again, Mr. President.  This is not any effort to

 9     limit General Tolimir's questioning.  I hope I have made that clear on

10     this occasion and other occasions.  The question is solely the proper way

11     of asking the questions so that we don't have a record that is misleading

12     that we can't make sense of at the end of the day, and that's the problem

13     with compound questions and questions that incorporate premises that have

14     no foundation.  So there is no limitation as far as the Prosecution is

15     concerned with these questions, they just need to be asked in a proper

16     way.  That is all.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, compound questions are always a problem

18     as we have seen earlier today.  You have heard the position of the

19     Prosecution, Mr. Tolimir.  Just put the next question to the witness.

20     Carry on, please.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Presiding Judge.  This

22     is a Colonel who is able to give us an answer to these questions, so I

23     should like to repeat.

24        Q.   You say they bought the uniforms from some Ukrainians in Zepa.

25     This is what you say, line 20.  Mr. Thayer has expressed doubts about the

Page 7133

 1     use of the word "bought."  Is this a fact?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, this is a misunderstanding.  Please put just

 3     your next question.  It's much better than to repeat some concerns again.

 4     Go ahead.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did the Muslims buy their uniforms from the Ukrainians, to the

 8     best of your knowledge?

 9        A.   I saw that they were wearing them.  I was not present at the time

10     of purchase, of course.  But because they were wearing Ukrainian

11     uniforms, it could have originated from them, but I don't know that.

12     Some Muslims were wearing such a uniform and I did make a statement about

13     that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you observe any insignia that told you that those

15     uniforms were, indeed, Ukrainian?

16        A.   I can't remember that anymore.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I will not belabour this point.

18             In your statement on page 2, paragraph 3, lines 1 to 5, I will

19     quote:

20             "The next day, Sunday, 9 July 1995, two British SAS units

21     arrived.  They requested a Netherlands forward air control.

22     Sergeant Bosch and his crew drove to the southern part of the enclave to

23     find out where the Bosnian Serbs were.  Later, the group was replaced by

24     the quick reaction force of the Charlie Company.  An hour after Bosch had

25     left, he told us over the radio that he had been surrounded by Bosnian

Page 7134

 1     Serbian soldiers at the Swedish shelter, that they had been disarmed and

 2     were being taken to Bratunac."

 3             My question:  Had these soldiers gone to Srebrenica before this

 4     or were they just there the next day when, as you say, on Sunday, the 9th

 5     of July, the British SAS arrived?

 6        A.   Could you perhaps phrase the question more clearly because I

 7     can't understand whether you are asking about the British or the Dutch?

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I am asking about the British unit because you say,

 9     "The next day on Sunday, 9 July, two British SAS arrived."  I am asking

10     about them.  Was it that they arrived on Srebrenica only on the 9th of

11     July, the Brits?

12        A.   In this statement, I describe that I was at blocking position 1

13     but that on Sunday, 9 July, two British SASers arrived, so they had been

14     in the enclave before that, but that day they arrived at blocking

15     position 1.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether these soldiers were part of the

17     UNPROFOR or were they a distinct SAS unit outside the UNPROFOR structure?

18        A.   These soldiers were assigned to our special forces and had

19     been -- had already been in the enclave for quite some time under

20     UNPROFOR.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Was the SAS subordinated to the commander of the

22     Dutch battalion in view of the fact that you say they requested a

23     Netherlands forward air control?

24        A.   They worked with our special forces and were under our authority,

25     so I assume that that's what your question concerns.

Page 7135

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Were they part of the UNPROFOR quota or contingent

 2     and that of the Dutch battalion or were they separate, were they outside

 3     that structure because you say they requested a Netherlands forward air

 4     control?

 5        A.   Based on their expertise they thought that it was a good place

 6     from blocking position 1 where we had a clear view of the south of the

 7     enclave to deploy any forward air controllers.  So they were being

 8     accommodated on our compound and worked with our special forces, and they

 9     arrived on sight and said that it would be a good idea to deploy a Dutch

10     forward air controller here.  I agreed with them, and that's what I

11     requested.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  The SAS unit, did they report to your

13     commander or to somebody else within or outside the enclave?

14        A.   I don't know that clearly, but they were not part of my platoon

15     at that point.  They were part of the special forces, and they arranged

16     how the reporting would proceed.  But if you mean something more

17     specific, I will try to help you with that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did they receive orders from Karremans or from

19     somebody else?  Thank you.

20        A.   I don't know exactly.  At that point in the enclave they had

21     multiple communication devices, but I can't help you with that.

22        Q.   Thank you.  You said in the third paragraph, second line:

23             "Sergeant Bosch and his crew drove to the southern part of the

24     enclave to find out where the Bosnian Serbs were.  Later, the group was

25     replaced by the quick reaction force of the Charlie Company.  An hour

Page 7136

 1     after Bosch had left, he told us over the radio that he had been

 2     surrounded by Bosnian Serbian soldiers at the Swedish shelter, that they

 3     had been disarmed and were being taken to Bratunac."

 4             Have I quoted you faithfully?  And if I have, tell me why did he

 5     go to find out where the Bosnian Serbs were and why did he immediately

 6     request for a Dutch forward air control?

 7        A.   I am going to have to explain this to you.  Blocking position

 8     Bravo 1 were APCs and that blocking position was a good location to put

 9     forward air controllers in position because they had a good view of the

10     south of the enclave from there.  That's how it reads.  And after that,

11     it says that Sergeant Bosch went with his crew to the south of the

12     enclave.  This was simply an infantry group in an armoured vehicle.  And

13     that was in the south of the enclave, the Swedish shelter, and he had

14     instructions to investigate whether the Bosnian Serbs had already

15     penetrated the enclave in the south, and what you can infer is that one

16     hour after he drove from my position with his infantry group to the

17     south, he was surrounded by Bosnian Serbs and disarmed.  That's separate

18     from the forward air controllers.

19        Q.   You use the sentence "to find the Bosnian Serbs."  Can you tell

20     us where the Bosnian Serbs were then and where the Muslims were then

21     relative to you and relative to Sergeant Bosch?

22        A.   At that point I was in blocking position 1.  We had no view of

23     the activities of the Bosnian Serbs in the south.  Ordinarily, the

24     Swedish shelter would have accommodated Muslims.  He was supposed to go

25     there, and the moment he arrived there he was surrounded by Bosnian

Page 7137

 1     Serbs.  We might infer from that that the Bosnian Serbs had penetrated

 2     the enclave in the area of the Swedish shelter, surrounded Sergeant Bosch

 3     there and disarmed him and transported him off to Bratunac.  The Muslims

 4     were concentrated more in the north, some of them near my blocking

 5     position.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  How far was that from Bosch and from the Swedish

 7     shelter?  How far back was that?  What was the distance between that

 8     place and the Muslim positions in the centre of the enclave in

 9     kilometres?

10        A.   I would have to check on a map, but I estimate about 2 kilometres

11     as the crow flies.

12        Q.   In front of you, between you and the Swedish shelter there were

13     no Muslims.  Why did Sergeant Bosch look for the Serbs then?  Why did he

14     venture among the Serbs knowing there were no Muslims there, there was

15     nobody to protect them -- protect him there?  Is it possible that he

16     wanted to protect the area although there were no Muslims there?

17        A.   His instructions were to determine whether Bosnian Serbs had

18     already penetrated the enclave, and he did find that out because he was

19     surrounded and disarmed.  But we had no perception, no observation in the

20     south of the enclave because our observation posts were fired at and

21     toppled.

22        Q.   Can we then say that Sergeant Bosch entered the Swedish shelter

23     which had already been in the hands of the Army of Republika Srpska by

24     then?

25        A.   I don't know.  All I know is that the sergeant travelled to the

Page 7138

 1     south from my blocking position and made this announcement over the radio

 2     to me.  I don't know exactly what it was like on site there, whether

 3     Bosnian Serb troops were already in the Swedish shelter or whether they

 4     were en route.

 5        Q.   I asked you because you say, in your statement, and I quote:

 6             "In the Swedish shelter, he was surrounded by Bosnian Serbs, they

 7     disarmed him and took him to Bratunac.  There was no fighting.  He was

 8     just disarmed there."

 9             Let me ask you, was there any fighting there or not?  And based

10     on your answer we will try and conclude whether he had fallen into a trap

11     which was the Swedish shelter in the possession of the Serbs, or whether

12     he was disarmed after some fighting.

13        A.   I don't know whether he was involved in fighting.  He reported to

14     me that he was surrounded and disarmed.

15        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  A while ago, you said that you were

16     not sure whether they got their orders from Karremans or from somebody

17     else.  Based on your answer, I would like to ask you this:  Was he

18     perhaps disarmed because the Serbs knew that he was not a member of the

19     DutchBat but, rather, that he was a member of the SAS, the special forces

20     of the great British army?  Thank you?

21        A.   I think I have explained clearly what the situation was like.

22     Sergeant Bosch was a Dutch sergeant who, with his Dutch infantry group,

23     drove to the south.  There were only two British in the enclave and they

24     stayed with me in the blocking position.  So in the south, only Dutch

25     UNPROFOR soldiers in Dutch attire in a Dutch armoured vehicle were

Page 7139

 1     present.  The two British remained at Bravo 1.  Sergeant Bosch is a

 2     Dutchman.

 3        Q.   Thank you for your explanation.  Thank you for telling us that

 4     Sergeant Bosch was a Dutchman.  Did he receive his orders from the SAS to

 5     go to that place where he was then surrounded by the Serbian army troops?

 6        A.   The two British military in the enclave had a lower rank and were

 7     accommodated with our special forces.  They had no influence whatsoever

 8     on Dutch UNPROFOR troops.  They did not command anybody.  Sergeant Bosch

 9     was instructed by Captain Groen to drive to the south.  The two British

10     are entirely outside of this.

11        Q.   Again, thank you for your explanation.  You say page 2, paragraph

12     4, lines 2 and 3:

13             "On several occasions I saw a tank approaching them from the

14     south."

15             Whose tank was that and who was the tank approaching?  It is not

16     very clear from your statement, could you please explain.

17        A.   In the statement, I state that I saw a Bosnian Serb tank entering

18     the enclave, firing a number of times, and then leaving again.  It was a

19     Serb tank 54/55.

20        Q.   I am reading from your statement.  I am quoting you, and

21     additionally you said:

22             "I didn't see what part had been hit, but I saw smoke."

23             My question is this:  That tank that you had previously seen or

24     that you saw at the time, was that tank hit and was smoke coming from the

25     tank?

Page 7140

 1        A.   The Bosnian Serb tank entering the enclave fired at the city of

 2     Srebrenica as well as at villagers in the surroundings.  The tank was not

 3     hit.  The tank caused the smoke.  I couldn't see exactly which house was

 4     hit.  I did see smoke rising up.

 5        Q.   Again, thank you for your explanation.  Did you have the

 6     authority to fire upon the tank because that tank had previously opened

 7     fire on a sector, on a facility, or a military target that you, yourself,

 8     did not observe or see?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Are you asking whether I was allowed to open fire at the Serb

10     tank?

11        Q.   I am asking you:  Were you authorised to open fire if you didn't

12     know whether it was targeting a firing position or if it had hit a sector

13     or an empty facility or a target that was unknown to you; in other words,

14     you didn't know what the target was?

15        A.   At that point I knew that the firing was not at us, UNPROFOR, but

16     a Serbian village or at the city of Srebrenica, and that's what I

17     reported to my commander, Captain Groen.  And he kept asking me, Is there

18     firing at us or somebody else?  And if they were firing at us, I would

19     have been authorised to return fire, but I did not have equipment,

20     weapons, to fire at a tank.  All I had was a weapon with a range of 800

21     metres.

22             So regarding your question as to whether I was authorised to open

23     fire independently on a Serb tank, the answer is no.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

25             MR. THAYER:  Just while we are here to save a little bit of time

Page 7141

 1     later on, there is a reference in the transcript to page 75, line 15, to

 2     a Serbian village.  The answer is:

 3             "At that point I knew that the firing was not at us, UNPROFOR,

 4     but a Serbian village or at the city of Srebrenica, and that's what I

 5     reported to my commander."

 6             I expect that there is an error somewhere in that.  I won't say

 7     much more than that, but just to save some redistrict, I guess, if we can

 8     deal with it now.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir could you clarify --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Maybe it would be best.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I state that I did indeed not

12     say that, that I said a Bosnian village, such as Pusmulici.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That clarifies the situation, in my

14     view.

15             Mr. Tolimir, now is your last question for today.  If you are

16     looking at this clock here in the courtroom, it is wrong.  We are

17     approaching 7.00 already.  But you have still time for a last question.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   And my last question is on page 2 where you say in the last

21     paragraph, in the last two lines of that paragraph, page 2, paragraph 4,

22     lines 10 and 11 where you say:

23             "At one point fire was opened at us, either from a tank or

24     artillery weapons from south-east.  Fire was opened five times.  It is

25     possible that Serbs opened fire on Muslims.  They were 5 to 10 metres

Page 7142

 1     away from us."

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't find this relevant portion in the

 3     transcript.  Could you check that, please.

 4             MR. THAYER:  We just need to go to the next page, Mr. President,

 5     at the very top.  That's the portion.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Okay.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it's on page 3 in the English

 8     version, and my question is as follows.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Was the distance of 5 metres from you visible for that tank, and

11     that was where the Muslims were, according to you.  And could the firing

12     positions be discernible from the tank if that's where you were and if

13     that's where the Muslims were?

14        A.   At blocking position 1, a artillery device of the Muslims was

15     indeed positioned.  I asked the commander -- I requested the commander

16     not to fire with that piece of artillery because we were very close by,

17     perhaps 50 to 60 metres from there.  They jotted that down on a slip of

18     paper and reported that to their commander and since then that piece of

19     artillery was not used.

20             When we were under fire, I could not say with absolute certainty

21     to my commander that the fire was directed at UNPROFOR.  It could also

22     have been directed at the Muslims that had a piece of artillery there.

23     That was the situation.  When we were fired at, we moved to a different

24     position.  Only later on when that position came under fire as well did I

25     tell my commander that the fire was directed at us.  The grenades that

Page 7143

 1     hit, in the passage of text you are referring to, they fell right near us

 2     and resulted in a minor injury.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for your answer.  It is two

 4     minutes past 7.00 already and therefore we have to adjourn for today, and

 5     we will assume tomorrow in the afternoon in this courtroom, 2.15.  May I

 6     remind you that it is not allowed during the break to have contact with

 7     either party about the content of your testimony.  Thank you very much.

 8     We adjourn.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

11                           7.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the

12                           2nd day of November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.