Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7285

 1                           Thursday, 4 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon.  At the outset of today's

 6     hearing, the Chamber would like to raise two procedural matters.

 7             First, the Chamber notes that we are not scheduled to sit on

 8     Monday, the 15th of November 2010.  Taking into account the length of the

 9     Prosecution case and the necessity of an expeditious trial, the Chamber

10     would like to sit on that day because at least two judges are available.

11     Yesterday, the Chamber has contacted the parties and communicated its

12     intention.  Now, the Chamber would like to hear from the parties if they

13     are prepared to sit on the 15th of November and whether the OTP is able

14     to call a witness for that day.

15             Mr. Thayer.

16             MR. THAYER:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, and good afternoon to

17     Your Honours, good afternoon to the Defence, and good afternoon,

18     everyone.

19             Mr. President, we have thus far been able to accommodate some of

20     the last-minute scheduling changes and alterations.  Unfortunately, in

21     this case we are unable to fill that day with a witness primarily for the

22     following two reasons:  One is the testimony of the witness for whom the

23     Trial Chamber issued a Rule 54 subpoena, the videographer does not appear

24     to be co-operative at the moment.  We have been in contact with him and

25     so far the indications are that he is being non-compliant with the Trial

Page 7286

 1     Chamber's subpoena.  We intend to re-establish contact to find out just

 2     how firm that non-compliance will be.  The bottom line is that we don't

 3     think we can count on him being here next week, so it is difficult enough

 4     as it is to try to then -- now we are in the position of pulling other

 5     available witnesses to fill gaps, and we will be lucky if we can fill

 6     next week, so with respect to Monday, the 15th, that will not be

 7     possible.

 8             The second reason that is preventing us from having additional

 9     gap fillers is we are having and encountering difficulties with a number

10     of our witnesses who just cannot make it any more.  They just don't have

11     the emotional and psychic and wherewithal to endure testifying for the

12     third or fourth time, and I'm speaking primarily of survivors who we have

13     placed on the witness list and, in a couple of cases, who have been the

14     subject of motions to convert their testimony to Rule 92 bis witnesses.

15     And we are finding that more and more witnesses are in the same position,

16     that they simply cannot take it any more.  And we also have the same

17     situation with some non-survivor witnesses as well.

18             So right now, the confluence of those two factors places us in

19     the position where we don't have, I don't think, anybody to fill that day

20     on the 15th.  Were Mr. Stojkovic to be available it would be a different

21     story, but we are now in the position of having to fill possibly three

22     days next week, and I can tell you what we have in mind for you for that

23     week.

24             The first is we have Mr. Blasczyk, ever our gap filler, available

25     to testify concerning what we refer to as the road book.  In the Popovic

Page 7287

 1     case, Mr. Blaszczyk testified for a couple of days concerning the Zoran

 2     Petrovic video.  Mr. Petrovic was a Belgrade-based journalist who during

 3     a trip to Srebrenica on the 13th and afterwards videotaped events, and

 4     the Trial Chamber is no doubt familiar with portions of that video which

 5     have been shown recently.  Given particularly that the Trial Chamber has

 6     recently been on the site visit and has a better idea now of where some

 7     of these locations are, it's as good a time as any to present this

 8     testimony during which we have a full colour book of video stills from

 9     that video.  Mr. Blasczyk explains exactly what's going on in these

10     stills and where, more importantly, along that video and along the road

11     from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje in particular certain events are taking

12     place.  We think that that testimony is very helpful for understanding

13     better the context and the location.

14             So I am working to get him ready and myself ready to put him on

15     next week.  I can tell you that the two most relevant exhibits are P1251,

16     which has been marked for identification in connection with

17     Mr. Petrovic's proposed Rule 92 -- I can't remember whether it was ter or

18     bis but it's been accepted under one of those rules by the Trial Chamber

19     and it's been provisionally admitted and that is in e-court, but again we

20     will have the actual full colour versions for the Trial Chamber to look

21     at during the course of Mr. Blasczyk's testimony so we don't have to rely

22     on necessarily e-court which is a little bit smaller.

23             The second exhibit in connection with Mr. Blasczyk's proposed

24     testimony is 65 ter 2178 which is an interactive CD containing the --

25     much of the same information and video footage but allows the user to

Page 7288

 1     rotate the images in a 360 degree manner so that you truly feel like and

 2     can orient oneself on the spot and that incorporates latter day filming

 3     of these same positions where Your Honours recently visited.  Again, we

 4     think that that's helpful for really getting a feel of how things were

 5     happening during these events on the road.  So that's the first gap

 6     filler we have.

 7             The second gap filler -- oh, I beg your pardon, actually the

 8     first gap filler that we are trying to obtain is the return of

 9     Colonel Egbers.  He has indicated that he is available for Tuesday, the

10     9th.  We are in the process of seeing whether there are Dutch

11     interpreters available for that day.  If he's not or if the interpreters

12     are not available we will start with Mr. Blaszczyk, he's a sure thing,

13     Colonel Egbers is not a sure thing right now.  We will update everybody

14     when we have more information.

15             If we still have a gap towards the end of the week, we have

16     Ms. Gallagher available to return to testify about the -- what we refer

17     to as the Muslim ID book, which is a book of video stills of individual

18     Muslim men who were filmed, in some cases by Mr. Petrovic and in some

19     cases by others, at various points during the deportation from Potocari.

20     The point of the book is to identify, from those video stills, individual

21     Muslim men and boys who did not survive and whose remains have been

22     identified in various mass graves or who otherwise remain missing on the

23     ICRC missing list, and Ms. Gallagher is available to explain how this

24     book was put together and the foundation for the contents of the book.

25     So I think we should be able to have adequate witnesses to fill the week

Page 7289

 1     next week should the subpoena not be complied with.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just for better understanding, Mr. Thayer, you

 3     mentioned three witnesses, Mr. Blaszczyk, Mr. Egbers, and Ms. Gallagher.

 4     And you will schedule them for next week?

 5             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In order to conclude their testimony; is that

 7     correct?

 8             MR. THAYER:  Well, in the case of Mr. Blaszczyk and Ms.

 9     Gallagher, they would be beginning new testimony.  I don't know how far

10     we will get, for example, with Mr. Blaszczyk testimony overall, whether

11     we will finish cross, for example, but the idea is to at least get them

12     started on that new testimony, if we -- in addition if we get

13     Colonel Egbers in.  Right now we are operating under the presumption that

14     the subpoena's witness will not be available next week.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you talking about next week or the following

16     week?

17             MR. THAYER:  Next week because next week we had a subpoenaed

18     witness scheduled and then the following week we had another -- the

19     second subpoenaed witness scheduled to testify.  So I'm speaking of the

20     videographer for next week and the other witness for the following week,

21     that is, the week of the 15th that is the subject of the Trial Chamber's

22     inquiry.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If the testimony of the relevant witnesses will

24     not be finished next week, why is it not possible to sit on the 15th?

25     Monday, the 15th?  It's the following week.

Page 7290

 1             MR. THAYER:  That would be possible, Mr. President, if that

 2     testimony is not completed.  I expect that if cross-examination is

 3     started, if the Defence is in a position to begin cross-examination of

 4     Mr. Blaszczyk or Ms. Gallagher that they would be finished by next week.

 5     If not, yes, I think we would be available to sit on the 15th, with those

 6     witnesses.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what is your position to sit on the

 8     15th of November, the Monday of the following week?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have no problem with that at

10     all, if it is in the afternoon, thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  In that case, we should

12     schedule a hearing on Monday, the 15th of November in the afternoon,

13     pending the question if the examination of the witnesses we are talking

14     about is not finished.  Please continue, Mr. Thayer.

15             MR. THAYER:  I just wanted to add one thing, Mr. President.  With

16     respect to the subpoenaed witness who is scheduled for next week, I just

17     wanted to give the Trial Chamber an idea of where we may be headed with

18     that.  Should the witness continue to affirm his non-compliance with the

19     Trial Chamber's subpoena, we will be applying to the Trial Chamber for an

20     order in lieu of contempt indictment to be issued by the Trial Chamber

21     along with a warrant for that witness's arrest, to force him to comply

22     with the valid order of this Trial Chamber for his testimony before the

23     Court, and again this is witness number 185 we are speaking of.  It is

24     the Prosecution's view that having that order, those proceedings, emanate

25     from the Trial Chamber will be the most expeditious and direct way of

Page 7291

 1     accomplishing the transfer of this witness to the Tribunal and obtaining

 2     ultimately his testimony which is what we want.  So again, the Trial

 3     Chamber can expect that application should he continue to exhibit his

 4     desire not to comply with the Trial Chamber's subpoena.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  After having received such an application, the

 6     Chamber will take that into account and consider it.  Thank you very

 7     much.

 8             Now, I would like to raise the second topic.  During the

 9     testimony of witness Egbers on the 1st and 2nd November, earlier this

10     week, the following exhibits were admitted without a B/C/S translation.

11     First, the Exhibit P1149, this is an UNMO situation report, and secondly,

12     the Exhibits P1150 and P1153.  These are chapters of reports of the

13     Netherlands Institute for War Documentation.  In the Popovic case these

14     exhibits have been tendered by the Defence and admitted without a B/C/S

15     translation.

16             The Chamber would like to inquire with you, Mr. Tolimir, whether

17     you intend to use these documents during his continued cross-examination

18     of -- your continues cross-examination of Witness Egbers and whether you

19     therefore require these documents to be translated or if you would, in

20     this particular instance, waive your right to receive this evidence in a

21     language you understand.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The

23     Defence shall not waive its right to find out what is the content of

24     those documents, given the fact that I do not know the language.  And

25     secondly, they have been extremely important, they are important for this

Page 7292

 1     Defence, they have been important to other defence teams, and we should

 2     like to ask and would appreciate receiving an early translation.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In this case, the documents I have mentioned are

 4     only marked for identification and not admitted yet, pending translation.

 5     Thank you very much.  If there are no other matters to discuss, the

 6     witness should be brought in, please.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, while the witness is being brought in

 8     we have some updated translations to inform the Court about.  We have

 9     P365b, P398b, P375b, P382b, P433, P407d, P407c, P606, P618, P843c, P963,

10     P1304, and P1227b.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  These exhibits are now

12     admitted into evidence.

13             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President, and that concludes my

14     business before the Chamber this afternoon.  May I be excused for the

15     remainor of the proceedings?

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, have a nice evening.

17             MR. THAYER:  And you as well, Mr. President and Your Honours.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             Mr. Gajic, you wanted to raise something too?  Mr. Gajic, I saw

21     you on your feet.  Nothing, okay.

22             Good afternoon, Mr. Janc, welcome back to the courtroom.  May

23     I remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth still applies.

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I understand, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we are still in the stage of

Page 7293

 1     cross-examination, if I recall correctly.

 2             Mr. Tolimir, the floor is yours.

 3                           WITNESS:  DUSAN JANC [Resumed]

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I great

 6     all present, I wish God's peace to this house and that this case be

 7     concluded in keeping with God's will and not mine.  I great Mr. Janc and

 8     I bid him welcome in our midst.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   At the conclusion of the last day of your testimony, I asked you

11     whether anyone, before this Court, and it was unclear whether a convict

12     or an accused, it was unclear on that day, whether anyone had been

13     convicted of murders in Trnovo before this Court.

14        A.   Yes, I do remember this question, yes.  And I think I -- that I

15     have provided you with an answer.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I will tell you what your answer was:

17             "Yes, these were the only murders in regard of which indictments

18     were brought against those who were accused for events in Srebrenica."

19             On the basis of your answer, I cannot actually gather whether

20     anyone had been convicted before this Court for those murders.

21             And you also said:

22             "I would have to consult the relevant judgements."

23        A.   Yes, that's true.  And I consulted the Popovic judgement in

24     relation to this issue, and I found out that the individuals were

25     convicted for this crime and it is -- it is concluded in the JCE common

Page 7294

 1     purpose issue and it is discussed there.  So I can confirm that the

 2     individuals were convicted for this crime, yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  As you have now just said that it was a part of the

 4     JCE, can you tell us on what grounds are all other indictees accused of

 5     the so-called joint criminal enterprise associated with those who

 6     committed the murders in Trnovo?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye?

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to

 9     you, good afternoon, everybody.

10             Mr. President, I object to the question.  It is true that the

11     convictions that arose in other cases with respect to these killings does

12     have some relevance in this case.  However, the witness's knowledge about

13     the legal basis supporting those convictions, or even the factual

14     circumstances underlying those convictions, is of little relevance, if

15     any, to this case and, in particular, to the specific issues toward which

16     the cross-examination is directed.

17             The witness testified, in particular, with respect to the

18     provenance and authenticity of videotape footage.  Part of the videotape

19     footage encompassed the crimes about which General Tolimir is

20     legitimately inquiring about on cross-examination.  However, whether or

21     not an individual -- whether or not this particular witness knows the

22     legal basis upon which a conviction involving those crimes was founded in

23     another proceeding, in another judgement, is really of marginal relevance

24     to his testimony and marginal relevance to the issues before this

25     Chamber.

Page 7295

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, if you want to find out on which

 2     reasons and which legal basis somebody was convicted, it is very simple

 3     to find out by reading this judgement.  I think it can't be helpful to

 4     use this witness to find out if somebody was sentenced according to JCE

 5     membership or something else.  You should focus on the knowledge of this

 6     witness and the facts he can provide you.  Please carry on.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Presiding Judge.  Thank

 8     you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  I accept everything that you said.  My purpose is

 9     to obtain the truth but I can rephrase the question.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Did you explore who ordered the crimes in Trnovo to be committed?

12        A.   Yes.  I was trying to get this information, reviewing the

13     documentation and various materials we have -- the OTP is having in

14     possession, and more than I thought here during my testimony I couldn't

15     find.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

18     Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  When taping this video, it is obvious from the

21     transcript, the cameraman says, and I quote, and that is page 3 -- pages

22     3 to 13, it is -- it is Exhibit P1024, page 13, line 15, and can that be

23     brought up on the screen for the benefit of the witness, please?

24             I apologise, it is page 3 of a total of 13.

25             Thank you, but we see the document but we don't see page 3.

Page 7296

 1     Could page 3, line 15, be brought up, please?  Here we can see it in

 2     English, Aleksandar is showing this to me, the first word is "cameraman,"

 3     and he says:

 4             "Zekan, go quickly, turn the truck around and bring it back.  My

 5     battery has died on me."

 6             Thank you.  Do you remember that he said that in the video clip

 7     that you showed us?

 8        A.   Yes, I do remember this portion of the video, yes.

 9        Q.   Does that mean that he wanted a new battery in order to be able

10     to record the killings?  Is that what he meant when he said, "My battery

11     is dead"?

12        A.   Yes, exactly.  That's what he meant, and you can see immediately

13     after that on the video that the truck goes away, and according to the

14     statements we have obtained from the individuals, that truck driver was

15     going back to pick up another battery.  So -- and since this spot was not

16     far away, two to three kilometres away from their base, the truck driver

17     was back later on and this individual replaced the battery.  And you can

18     hear later on, when the execution is taking place, that battery is again

19     dying, so we will see his voice again saying, the cameraman is saying,

20     also something in that sense that the battery is -- is -- also this

21     battery is dying.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Bearing in mind that you studied the video clip and

23     that you looked at it carefully and you heard him ask for a battery, can

24     you tell from the video clip that the executions were being delayed while

25     waiting for the camera to come back with a new battery?

Page 7297

 1        A.   I would say the camera was always there.  The camera didn't go

 2     back to their base and return back.  The camera and the cameraman was

 3     always there, only the person, one of them, went back to their base to

 4     pick up a new battery, and then this individual returned back and the

 5     battery was changed.  And then, yes, we can say that that was the reason

 6     that the execution was delayed because they were waiting for the new

 7     battery.

 8        Q.   Thank you for correcting my mistake.  I said did they wait for

 9     the camera and I should have said did they wait for the battery.

10             Does this point to a conclusion that somebody ordered the camera

11     person to document the execution?  Did somebody instruct him to record

12     the executions?

13        A.   Yes.  That's true.  And when we -- I mean the OTP interviewed him

14     he confirmed that fact, that he was ordered to film the execution, and

15     not only that, during the -- on the film itself you can see that one of

16     the Skorpion's members turns back to him and he's asking him that he

17     needs to film this, otherwise -- and if the film will not be okay, he

18     would also be killed.  Something in that sense.  So he was ordered, yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did the OTP investigate where such an order could

20     have come from?  Did the OTP learn anything about that?

21        A.   The OTP tried to obtain as much information as possible on how

22     this incident took place, who ordered it, when it took place, and all the

23     circumstances regarding this event.  I can confirm that we didn't get

24     everything what we wanted so -- and during information I provided here

25     during my testimony is all I can say what -- what the Prosecution is

Page 7298

 1     having in their possession.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Two witnesses, as you have just said it yourself, and

 3     we can see this in document P1023, say that the cameraman was ordered to

 4     film the executions.  Did the OTP investigate who had the motive to do

 5     that?  Did it try to establish who that person was, or what position such

 6     a person might have occupied?

 7        A.   Yes, the OTP did investigate that fact, and my answer to your

 8     question would be very similar to my previous one so that for sure we

 9     didn't get all the information regarding this incident, in particular

10     what you are asking me who was the main individual who ordered these

11     killings, I mean from the higher level military or within the police

12     organisation.  So -- but individuals who were involved in this incident

13     are unknown.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Since you have the document in front of you, and you

15     can look the fifth line in the third paragraph, where two persons say

16     that an order had been issued to record the executions, wouldn't it be

17     desirable to find out who had the motive to issue such an order?  Maybe

18     that would also shed the light on all the other killings in Srebrenica.

19     Do you know if anybody has investigated that, and if they did, do you

20     know what the results of such an investigation may have been?

21        A.   The OTP wanted to get as much information as possible, as

22     I emphasised many times so far, and more than we got, we didn't -- we

23     didn't get.  So of course, it is of our interest to find out what was the

24     motive, what was -- who was standing behind every particular crime, and

25     in this case, the executors are known to the OTP and what is also known

Page 7299

 1     who are the victims, it is also known where this incidents took place,

 2     how these victims were most probably brought from Srebrenica area to this

 3     area, and these are information which OTP obtained during the years.

 4        Q.   However, before we draw any general conclusions about the

 5     responsibility of the so-called joint criminal enterprise, and since two

 6     persons here are saying that an order had been issued, and they were all

 7     arrested, including the one who gave the order to them, did you try to

 8     talk to that person in order to find out where the original order for the

 9     executions to be documented, to be filmed, had come from?

10        A.   Yes, indeed, the OTP talked to this individual, and if I'm not

11     wrong, he didn't tell us where did the order come from.

12        Q.   It would be very important to know whether he himself confirmed

13     that he was acting upon somebody's order.  Did he confirm that?  But he

14     didn't want to name the person who issued that order.  Is that a fair

15     representation of what you just said?

16        A.   I'm not sure about this person, what actually he said to us, but

17     I'm sure he didn't name the individuals, but for other details you are

18     asking me now I would rather consult his statement once more.

19        Q.   Thank you.  At trial in Belgrade, did that individual perhaps

20     name the person who had issued the order?  Did he perhaps state that

21     somebody had ordered him to film the executions in Trnovo?

22        A.   My response would be the same.  I would need to consult his

23     Belgrade statement also, but if you have this statement and this portion

24     of his interview, I can -- I can take a look and I can agree that this

25     statement we have received from the Serbian authorities, and I can

Page 7300

 1     confirm and agree that this is what he said, yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I don't have the right to testify here and I don't

 3     have the same amount of materials as you do.  I'm asking you whether he

 4     said that it had been ordered to him to execute the men and to record the

 5     executions on a videotape.  Just say "yes" or "no" and that will be the

 6     last of my questions about that.

 7        A.   Yeah, I think if my recollection is correct, that the answer

 8     would be yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  If he said yes, then a new issue may be raised here.

10     There was therefore somebody, before the killings took place, that -- who

11     wanted the killings to take place, who ordered those killings.  Did you

12     investigate whether anybody had the motive to order those killings and to

13     order those killings to be documented on a videotape?

14        A.   In relation to our investigation, I've already told you how far

15     did we get with the investigation.  And many, many different options are

16     possible, always.  And, yes, that would be my response to your question.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, or me, for

18     that matter, whether you know if Mr. Medic is going to testify before

19     this Trial Chamber and in these proceedings.  Thank you.

20        A.   No.  I am sure he's not going to testify, and this individual is

21     the -- he was the chief of the Skorpions unit and he was convicted in

22     Belgrade, and he is serving his sentence right now there.  So the

23     Prosecution in this case did not call him as a witness.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you investigate if anybody from the leadership of

25     Republika Srpska and the Army of Republika Srpska had a motive to order

Page 7301

 1     such an execution and document it by a film camera?  Was anybody in

 2     either the political or military leadership interested in doing that?

 3     Thank you.

 4        A.   I'm not aware of any such investigation being done, so I'm not

 5     aware, so I think I cannot respond to this question.

 6        Q.   Since you yourself are an investigator, could you tell us whether

 7     it would be necessary to investigate that, since the whole matter is

 8     treated as a joint criminal enterprise?  Thank you.

 9        A.   It's usually necessary to investigate as much as possible.  So --

10     but sometimes it's impossible to do that, and there are different factors

11     for that.  So in general sense, I can -- I can agree with you that it's

12     important to find out, you know, who is behind each and every crime

13     committed, and I don't see any difference here, with this case.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Since the crimes were committed by individuals who

15     were outside of the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you received

16     the document from Sarajevo which is in the centre of Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina, did you investigate whether the order issuer perhaps had

18     been located in Sarajevo?  Thank you.

19        A.   If you can be a little bit more clear regarding which document

20     you are now talking about?

21        Q.   Well, the film was made by a cameraman and other persons who

22     belonged to the Skorpion group, a group that was active outside of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you received it from a reliable source from

24     Sarajevo, a part under the control of BiH.  Did you investigate the

25     possibility that the murders and their recording may have been ordered

Page 7302

 1     from Sarajevo?

 2        A.   This is now a misinterpretation.  We never -- we never said and

 3     according to the declaration we can see on our screen, it's clear how the

 4     Prosecution obtained this video, when, from which person, it says here of

 5     course as a confidential source, and this source is not a member of ABiH.

 6     He is a member of the Skorpions unit, and I think it's quite clear how

 7     the Prosecution obtained this video and from whom.  So it has nothing to

 8     do with the BiH army of BiH or any other BiH federal institutions.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

10             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.  At page 16 of today's transcript, line

11     13, or starting with line 12, you state that:

12             "So the Prosecution in this case did not call him as a witness."

13             Do you know if he has been called as a witness in another case

14     before the Tribunal?  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, if I'm not mistaken he hasn't been

16     called by any other Trial Chamber, simply due to the fact that he was

17     arrested in 2005 already, soon after this video was introduced in this --

18     at the ICTY courtroom for its first time during the Milosevic trial and

19     he has been arrested after that.

20             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Janc, if you'd look at paragraph 7 in the document that's

25     before you now, if you look at line 1, in paragraph 7, you will see that

Page 7303

 1     it says here, "I went to Sarajevo."  That's the senior OTP officer who

 2     says that.  And then he speaks about the money that had to be approved

 3     for him to obtain that.  And then in paragraph 8 he says:

 4             "Before leaving Sarajevo for The Hague, the intermediary arranged

 5     with us to meet a certain person and that meeting was supposed to take

 6     place a week later."

 7             Bearing that in mind, in my previous question when I suggested

 8     that order issuer may have been from Sarajevo and you said no, how can

 9     you say no if you didn't investigate the matter if you received the film

10     from Sarajevo?  Can you tell us what is the link between Sarajevo and the

11     perpetrators of the crime?  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think the witness

14     has already answered the question.  The declaration speaks for itself as

15     to the issues that are being put by General Tolimir at this time, and it

16     does not speak to the circumstances under which the initial order to

17     carry out the executions or to videotape the executions were issued, and

18     so I just don't see that it's a relevant question based upon this

19     document.  If there is some other information the general seeks to

20     obtain, I think that's fair, but I don't think that emanates from a

21     review of this documents or anything this document says.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I think the witness is capable to

23     answer this question, especially the last part:

24             "How can you say no if you didn't investigate the matter, if you

25     received the film from Sarajevo?  Can you tell us what is the link

Page 7304

 1     between Sarajevo and the perpetrators of the crime?"

 2             I think this part of the question can be answered by the witness.

 3             Mr. Janc.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Indeed, the Prosecution obtained

 5     this video in Sarajevo, but from -- again from a person who came to

 6     Sarajevo, so that individual just wanted to get in contact with the OTP

 7     investigators in Sarajevo for some reason, and how I'm able to conclude

 8     that is based mainly on this declaration and that's more or less --

 9     I mean in relation to this place where we got the video.  As per your

10     question how far Sarajevo is from this location, I think it's around 30

11     to 50 kilometres south from Sarajevo.  That's where Trnovo is.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.  Is there anything in any of the documents that would

14     point to that conclusion?  You say, "I concluded."  Is there anything in

15     the documents that would points to that conclusion?  I don't see any such

16     thing in the documents disclosed to us by the OTP.  Maybe you have

17     something else, a different statement, or something of the sort.  Thank

18     you.

19        A.   One is this declaration, then we have also the statement of this

20     individual himself who provided us with this tape, and the second source

21     where I can see which -- where something was obtained is also our

22     internal OTP record.  When we obtain some evidence, we make a little

23     synopsis of how we get the stuff, from which source and from where, and

24     this is additional source where I can see from where certain evidence was

25     obtained or found.

Page 7305

 1        Q.   Thank you.  In the material disclosed to us by the OTP, we can

 2     only see that it is P345, in which case we are not able to know the

 3     details that you're talking about.  I apologise if I'm asking you

 4     something that we are not supposed to know.  However, I think it would be

 5     very important to know whether there is any link between Sarajevo and the

 6     organisers of that crime.  Thank you.

 7             My next question is this:  Do you know, did you investigate, why

 8     the persons had been brought to Trnovo and murdered there in front of the

 9     camera?  And we can see on the footage that the cameraman was threatened

10     by that other person who told him if you don't get it right, we will kill

11     you as well.  So why did these individuals who were murdered have to be

12     brought to Trnovo in the first place?

13        A.   The investigation itself didn't come to a clear conclusion

14     regarding this fact.  So the information we have, and based on the

15     evidence we have, we are -- we may conclude that these individuals are

16     the victims from Srebrenica because of the fact they left Srebrenica

17     enclave after its fall, and we know that they were transported from

18     Srebrenica area to Trnovo soon after the fall of Srebrenica, and that

19     they were killed there.  They were handed over to this Skorpion unit and

20     killed by them.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You have just told us we know that they were brought

22     from Srebrenica and handed over to the Skorpion unit.  Does it mean that

23     the Skorpions had not actually captured them but that they were brought

24     over and handed over to them in that place?

25        A.   Yes.  From documents, statements the OTP has, we can conclude yes

Page 7306

 1     that's the case.  They were brought there by bus or truck from Srebrenica

 2     area and handed over to the Skorpions unit.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In the first part of your testimony, you said that

 4     there is a statement by their close relatives who stated that they were

 5     attempting a breakthrough with rest of the people in the column and that

 6     was the last news that they had of them.  Is that what you stated in the

 7     first part of your testimony?

 8        A.   Yes.  One of the individuals we see on this video, one of those

 9     six, was breaking through the -- this area with his brother-in-law, and

10     he identified him as the person with whom he left Srebrenica together

11     after its fall.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Does this indicate that those persons left Srebrenica

13     with a column which was attempting to break through, and do you have any

14     witness testifying to the fact that they had been returned to Srebrenica

15     again?  Because a while ago you said that they had been brought from

16     Srebrenica to Trnovo.

17        A.   Okay.  What I meant with Srebrenica is not the Srebrenica town

18     itself but the area of Srebrenica, which is much wider, you know.

19     I would rather say the area -- the way where the column was passing

20     towards the north, so the wider area of Srebrenica, I should say, so they

21     were brought from this area down to Trnovo.  So we have witnesses of

22     course, and one of these -- at least one of these witnesses, I think,

23     will also testify here and will confirm that one of these victims left

24     Srebrenica after its fall, heading towards free territory, through the

25     woods.

Page 7307

 1        Q.   Thank you.  As you know all this, do you know where they were

 2     arrested, the exact location?  Were they arrested and then handed over to

 3     the person who took them to the execution site?

 4        A.   No, this information is not known to the OTP.  I made searches on

 5     these individuals to see if any additional information or documentation

 6     is available in our collection, in OTP collection, in order to confirm at

 7     least something where and when they were captured but I couldn't find any

 8     information regarding this fact.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know the time of their arrest and the

10     exact time of their execution?  Does the OTP know these facts?

11        A.   For the time, regarding the time of their capture, I can say it's

12     not known to the Prosecution.  Based on all the facts which Prosecution

13     is aware of, it should be after the fall of Srebrenica in July of 1995.

14     And according to the statements the OTP obtained from those individuals

15     involved in these killings it should be -- the killing took place in

16     sometime in July also of 1995.  And there is one document which one of

17     the witnesses the OTP interviewed confirmed, and this document is from 20

18     of July, and this witness confirmed that based on this document, the

19     Skorpion unit was pulled back from the Trnovo area so they were not there

20     any more.  So this incident, based on this fact, should take place

21     between 12th and 20th July, 1995.

22        Q.   Thank you.  As this is very important, because of the individuals

23     who are being charged with this, to know the exact time, place, and

24     manner, do you have any other information about any other participants in

25     the event apart from those who have been convicted?  Any other members

Page 7308

 1     from the Army of Republika Srpska or any other members who participated

 2     in their arrest, in their taking to that location, in their killing?

 3     Thank you.

 4        A.   No.  We -- so far we don't have any additional information.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You said a while ago that one witness testified in

 6     this case.  I do not remember any of the witnesses to the murder having

 7     testified in this case.  Can you jog my memory, please?

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I recall correctly, the witness said one

 9     person will testify in this trial.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I can confirm I was referring to

11     the witnesses who is coming, still coming to testify here, so he will

12     testify.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   I would appreciate it very much if you told us whether you

16     investigated what role this group had in Trnovo apart from that killing.

17     Did they participate in any combat action?  Is there any reference to

18     them or to any of them in any of the combat reports of the time?  I'm

19     talking about their combat activities in the Trnovo sector.

20        A.   Yes, they were involved in combat activities in this Trnovo area,

21     Trnovo battlefield as they called it at the time.  And they were

22     supporting the VRS and Republika Srpska MUP units in that area at the

23     time.  So -- and basically that's why they came or they were deployed to

24     this area in early or late June of 1995, and one of -- I haven't seen any

25     of their reports.  I would -- I mean the Skorpion unit report I haven't

Page 7309

 1     seen any of those reports, but what we can see and we have seen also here

 2     in this courtroom is, for example, the report from Ljubisa Borovcanin on

 3     1st of July when he's reporting that there are combat activities which

 4     are performed together with these units.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Please, is this document 1D288 that you're referring

 6     to?  And could we please have it brought up in e-court, if it is indeed

 7     the one that you are referring to?  It is Borovcanin, is consolidated

 8     report on activities from the 12th to the 20th.  Is that the one you are

 9     talking about?  Thank you.

10        A.   No.  In this case I was referring to the one from 1st of July,

11     1995.

12        Q.   Thank you.  We shall call that document from the 1st of July,

13     1995.  It is document P1025, if that is the one you mean.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Can we have P1025 brought up on the

15     screen, please?  Thank you.

16        Q.   We now have that document in front of us.  Can you tell us where

17     there is reference here to their activities and to their participation in

18     combat?

19        A.   It's within the first paragraph, that's how I see this first

20     paragraph, that they were deployed there and that they were engaged in

21     these activities, in this Trnovo battlefield.

22        Q.   So they were in the Trnovo area.  Does the OTP have a document

23     showing their presence in the Srebrenica area?

24        A.   No.  The OTP does not have any document, and the OTP does not

25     have any information that this unit was ever in Srebrenica at that time,

Page 7310

 1     so based on information the OTP obtained during the investigation,

 2     regardless of the order we have seen from -- and it is from 10th of July,

 3     regardless of this order, Tomo Kovac's order, they were never -- they

 4     never came to Srebrenica.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In order to have it clear on the record, you are

 6     referring to the Skorpions when you say this unit was never in

 7     Srebrenica; is that correct?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Tolimir.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Presiding Judge.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  Please tell us now whether the OTP or you

14     yourself have perhaps obtained information that members of the Skorpions

15     group perhaps had found somewhere in the area these men that they

16     executed?

17        A.   No.  The OTP does not have any such information.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Does the OTP have any information regarding the very

19     first encounter between the Skorpions and these persons whom they

20     executed?  How did they come across them?

21        A.   According to information we have, they first came in contact with

22     them on the day -- on the morning when they were killed, so, and based on

23     what I testified before, that should be sometimes between 12 and 20 of

24     July 1995.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did the OTP investigate whether perhaps these persons

Page 7311

 1     were attempting to reach Sarajevo via Trnovo and then were arrested en

 2     route there?

 3        A.   It's a quite long route around, and based on the knowledge and

 4     information in the possession of the OTP, most of the individuals, most

 5     of the Muslim men who left Srebrenica after the -- after its fall, was

 6     heading north towards Tuzla.  Some of them also south towards Zepa.  And

 7     these are the main routes which they took, and because of the statement

 8     of one of the relatives of those killed men, those men left Srebrenica

 9     and were heading north towards Zvornik.  So it would be quite illogical

10     that they would make such a big turn down to south, to Trnovo.  So that's

11     why Prosecution -- it's Prosecution's position, and of course I share

12     this position with the Prosecution, that they should be captured

13     somewhere close to Srebrenica, and indeed transported down to south.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the OTP introduced a document in

15     this case showing that some of the people went to Serbia, some to Zepa,

16     and yet others to Gorazde, in attempting to break through, and that the

17     shortest route from Gorazde to Sarajevo is via Trnovo?  Could it then

18     mean that perhaps they had been arrested in Trnovo, given the fact that

19     the exact location is not known and that the actual people who arrested

20     them are not known?  So if you have investigated anything along those

21     lines, would you please share that information with us?  Thank you.

22        A.   Yes, indeed you're right.  Some people, and I didn't say about

23     that, tried to -- and crossed the border, actually the Drina River and

24     went into Serbia and were captured there, and then some of them returned

25     back to RS, so indeed that was the case that some of them left Srebrenica

Page 7312

 1     also toward west.  And when I said towards south, I meant towards Zepa

 2     and from Zepa then of course towards Gorazde.  So these were the cases,

 3     yes, and the Prosecution is aware of those cases which were going south,

 4     but is not aware of any case to go that south or to go towards Sarajevo.

 5     So I would say towards Tuzla, towards Serbia, towards Zepa and Gorazde,

 6     towards Kladanj, these are the main routes where the people went.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the exact location of their arrest

 8     and by whom remains a secret to this day.  Has the OTP investigated why

 9     this is still shrouded in secrecy and are there any special reasons

10     underlying that situation?  Perhaps I was not clear in asking this

11     question.  I can rephrase it and put it more briefly.

12        A.   I think I understand it but if you can rephrase it will be

13     perhaps a little bit easier for me to respond.

14        Q.   Has the OTP conducted any investigations to establish why the

15     location and the time of the arrest and execution of these persons still

16     remains a secret and why were these persons executed so far from

17     Srebrenica, at a site so far from Srebrenica, and so near on the route to

18     Sarajevo?

19        A.   Yes.  The investigation was -- was conducted, and we wanted to

20     get as many information as possible, and I will repeat myself once more.

21     We wanted to get as much as possible, and as far as we can, but I can

22     just repeat once more what -- what kind of information we have, how far

23     we came, and my answer will be the same, how -- what kind of information

24     the OTP has, I think I was quite clear already during my testimony.  But

25     no further investigation has been done regarding other issues, and that's

Page 7313

 1     it.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua wants to put a question.

 4             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  I apologise.

 5             Witness, I would like to return to the question put to you by

 6     Mr. Tolimir on page 28, line 4 of this transcript.  He was asking what

 7     was the distance between Srebrenica and Trnovo.  Trnovo is the place

 8     where these people were executed.  So could you tell us what the distance

 9     is between Trnovo and Srebrenica?

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's -- and this is a rough

11     estimation, of about 200 kilometres.

12             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Has the OTP investigated whether the killed people had ever been

17     the subject of an exchange by their killers, as they were in touch with

18     the opposite side, with the adversary side, in order to exchange them for

19     whom they wanted from that side?

20        A.   Based on information the OTP obtained during the investigation,

21     they were just brought to this area one morning and, soon after, they

22     were executed.  So there is no information they were ever considered to

23     be exchanged.

24        Q.   Thank you.  As it is the OTP's estimation that it was on the

25     18th, the day on which they were brought and killed, were there any

Page 7314

 1     people captured on the 18th on locations around Srebrenica?  Thank you.

 2        A.   I think I didn't say on the date of 18th any time during my

 3     testimony.  What I said was that they were most probably killed between

 4     12th and 20th of July.  When exactly they were captured and when exactly

 5     which date was that they were killed is not known to the OTP.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you this in order for us to see whether

 7     they had been held somewhere up to the point and moment of their

 8     execution or had been brought from a place which is even farther away

 9     from Srebrenica, because if you know in locations around Srebrenica and

10     in Srebrenica itself, up to the 20th, there had been no captives, no

11     people taken prisoner.

12        A.   There were people, so this is not actually -- this is not true

13     that people were not kept around Srebrenica between these dates.  We know

14     that they were kept there and in the area in Bratunac, Kravica, and Nova

15     Kasaba.  Most of them during the 13th of July, 12th and 13th of July, but

16     some of them even later, especially in Bratunac.  So -- but if we go back

17     to these particular six individuals, since we don't know when exactly

18     they were captured, so we can't say exactly what happened to them when

19     they were -- after they were captured actually, so and if they were

20     transported down to Trnovo on that same day, few days after that, so a

21     lot of information is missing here, I agree with you, and I would like to

22     have more information on this case, these individuals, so as I told you

23     I tried to obtain, to search for more information on them but I was not

24     able to find any.  So that's why we cannot be that exact, and exclude the

25     possibility that they were kept somewhere, because we simply don't know

Page 7315

 1     when and where exactly they were captured.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  I know that the OTP has presented

 3     information here about the place and time of execution so it can be seen

 4     that it was before the 20th.  What I should like to know now is this:  In

 5     your previous testimony, you said that there exists a witness who saw

 6     people being brought on buses from Srebrenica to Trnovo and taken from

 7     Trnovo back to Srebrenica.  Do you recall that?

 8        A.   Maybe you didn't understand or maybe it was misinterpretation.

 9     What I said is that these people were brought down from Srebrenica, from

10     the area, wider area of Srebrenica to Trnovo, and when you asked me

11     regarding where additional people might be since they were -- if there is

12     information that they were brought by buses, so we assumed that many more

13     would be transport down there, where those would be.  And I replied to

14     this question that we simply don't know, they might be somewhere around

15     Trnovo, killed and buried and we don't know yet where, or they might

16     be -- it's also possible -- transported back to the Srebrenica area.

17     That was my response, I think, to your question, but I didn't say that we

18     know that they were indeed transported back to Sarajevo -- to Srebrenica.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise to you, but as this is a public trial,

20     and as we all understand, we can appreciate that those who have lost

21     their families would like to know that location, that is why I ask you

22     whether there exists a witness who had seen them, because you did refer

23     to a witness who saw them in your previous testimony, how they were

24     coming there with their heads down, so I'm talking about that witness.

25     I'm just asking you whether that is -- that faithfully reflects what you

Page 7316

 1     said in your previous testimony, nothing more.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you able to give a reference?

 3     In my recollection I don't know if the witness said that, it would be

 4     helpful for the witness and the Chamber to find that portion in the

 5     transcript.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  My legal adviser should

 7     try to find it.  I asked if you remember whether that means that some

 8     would be found there, and the witness said yes, some of the killed might

 9     be found there.  And what I want us not to do is not to send any wrong

10     information from this trial to the public.  My legal adviser will try to

11     find that reference.

12             THE WITNESS:  I may reply to you in this way.  So, yes, we have

13     this witness statement who told us that these people were brought to

14     Trnovo.  In relation to others, which might be brought down there and

15     killed, we actually -- we simply don't know this information -- this

16     witness did not provide us any additional information of any additional

17     killings by the members of their units, so we don't know if any

18     additional individuals were killed in that area, and subsequently buried,

19     or just left on the ground like all the others, and since we don't have

20     any additional exhumations carried out in this area, we don't -- we

21     cannot confirm any of the facts.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic?

23             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the transcript

24     reference is 7037, page number 7037, and the date is 29 October.  As well

25     as the previous page, I believe, but I need to check that.

Page 7317

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Perhaps it's possible to have that

 2     part on the screen.  It will take a moment.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

 4     you, Mr. Janc, for being really clear in his answer.  I will give him

 5     another opportunity to repeat that for the general public, since we are

 6     in open trial.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, are you sure that this number is

 8     correct?

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.  I didn't

10     check whether it has been recorded properly, 7037. [In English] 7037.

11             Here is Mr. Tolimir's question and then an answer about the

12     buses.  For example, it says, the -- [In English] "The OTP tried to

13     obtain -- to obtain more corroborating statements in relation to the same

14     issue," [Interpretation] and so on and so forth.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, to which line you were referring?

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] 7037 is the page number, and

17     Mr. Tolimir's question features on lines from 3 through 6, and the

18     witness's answer is on lines 7 through 17, and so on.  And I believe that

19     we have precisely that on the screen now.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, we succeeded and perhaps we can -- the

21     witness is able to read that part.

22             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Your Honour, but I don't have it on the

23     screen.  So maybe I need to switch.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The court usher will assist you.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 7318

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, if I may?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And maybe it's just me, but I seem to have lost

 4     complete track of the question that Mr. Tolimir has put to the witness.

 5     I believe that it started out with the suggestion that the made had made

 6     a certain representation with respect to where these individuals that

 7     were -- or other individuals may have been killed.  I don't see that in

 8     the transcript that is now on the screen.  The only reference to that

 9     that appears to be close to the question, as I recall it, is an answer

10     that the witness gave saying that the question was speculative and his

11     answer was effectively speculation.  And I don't see that that is -- if

12     that's the reference that General Tolimir is going to, I just don't see

13     how that is at all helpful to any material issue or any issue, frankly,

14     before the Tribunal.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I note the witness has read this

16     part in the meantime and now you should put the relevant question to this

17     part, to the witness.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since

19     I don't speak English, and I can only remember what the witness said a

20     few days ago.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   My question is this.  The witness who provided information to the

23     OTP about Trnovo and the arrival of buses, did he observe that from a

24     location in Trnovo or a location in Sarajevo?  And was that witness

25     familiar with both locations?  Thank you.

Page 7319

 1        A.   The witness who provided it, he observed that from Trnovo.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So how could he then know that the buses travelled

 3     from Sarajevo to Trnovo and back, and that that was repeated several

 4     times?  I believe that's what the witness said.  I'm sorry, I said

 5     Sarajevo instead of Srebrenica.  The route was Srebrenica-Trnovo and

 6     back.  Thank you, Aleksandar, for correcting me.

 7        A.   This one was a member of the Skorpions unit, and this was known

 8     to him, being a member of this unit, and that's how he came across of

 9     this information.  That's what he told us.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Was the OTP able to corroborate his words through any

11     other witness, through any other piece of evidence?  I don't speak

12     English.  I'm just allowing you to comment upon all that, and don't think

13     that you can do me any harm by putting your comments forth.  Thank you.

14        A.   The other individuals which were identified and interviewed by

15     the OTP were reluctant to say where these individuals came from.  So this

16     is one of the individuals who told us how they were brought down there to

17     Trnovo area.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we are running out of time.  We must

19     have our first break.  But before we do that, I will have to correct

20     myself.  I was recorded on page 7, line 11, to have said, exhibits P1150

21     and P1153.  The correct reading should be P1150 through P1153.  That

22     means the exhibits P1150, 51, 52, and 53.  Just for the record.

23             We break now and resume 20 minutes past 4.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 7320

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2                           --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Please continue.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Janc, we were talking about the so-called witness who

 7     allegedly saw the comings and goings and I would not belabour the point

 8     any further.  I would just like to say that that witness belonged to the

 9     circle of those who participated in the killings of the six men, or,

10     rather, I would like to ask you whether he belonged to that circle.

11     Thank you.

12        A.   He was the member of the Skorpions unit but he was -- he did not

13     participate in the killing.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Was his statement credible in respect of other facts

15     that he presented during his testimony?  Did you investigate that?  Thank

16     you.

17        A.   If you talk about the statement as a whole, I think it is

18     credible, yes, and also the fact regarding this particular information

19     of -- in relation to the killings of these six men, I think it is

20     credible, yes.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

22             JUDGE NYAMBE:  At page 35, just now you have said in answer to

23     General Tolimir's question, whether the person was a member -- sorry, let

24     me go back.

25             Whether he belonged to that circle, meaning the circle of the

Page 7321

 1     Skorpions, and your answer was he was a member of the Skorpions unit but

 2     he did not participate in the killing.  How do you know that?

 3             THE WITNESS:  According to his statement but not only his

 4     statement, according to the statements of the others, and the problem is

 5     now because maybe we go into private session, I can tell you more.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 7322

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm not

 3     going to mention the person that has just been mentioned, but I'm going

 4     to have a question about the situation since that individual was not a

 5     participant in the killings.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Was that person in the location when the killings were taking

 8     place?

 9        A.   No, he was not at that location, at the spot where the killings

10     took place, no.  He was not there.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Was he in that village where his unit was?  Thank

12     you.

13        A.   Yes.  I think he was there, yes, according to his statement, he

14     was there.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did he know that the video recording was

16     commissioned?  I suppose he must have known, hence the loaning of the

17     camera.  Thank you.

18        A.   He learned about this incident and that the incident was filmed

19     later on, when the whole unit returned back to Croatia and when the

20     camera was returned back to him, when he found the actual tape inside

21     this camera.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Is it possible that those who perpetrated the crime

23     by killing the six Muslims in Trnovo hid it from the rest of the group?

24     Is it possible that they had been given a task to record all that on a

25     camera?  Thank you.

Page 7323

 1        A.   Yes.  As it was established, you know, they had made this filming

 2     on purpose, so they were aware of it and they wanted to do it and that's

 3     what it was done, so -- yes.

 4        Q.   Does this mean that the entire group did not hide from each other

 5     what they had done, that they did it openly and that they recorded it to

 6     meet the requirements of those that they had filmed it for?

 7        A.   I don't think they have made it openly because after they

 8     returned back to Croatia, indeed, several copies of this tape has been

 9     made and distributed throughout the members, and later on, the leader of

10     this unit wanted all these tapes to be returned back so the -- but when

11     I mean later on, you know, a few years after this event, and they wanted

12     to destroy everything.  And according to information the OTP has they

13     have destroyed many of them but not all of them, and when I say that they

14     had not made it public, that's why the OTP got possession of this tape

15     only in 2004, which is nine years after the actual incident took place.

16             So we can't say it was publicly known, so it was -- this incident

17     and -- the existence of the tape itself was known to the limited number

18     of the people, and that's why, in my opinion, it was not publicly known

19     that this was -- this was done.  So it was just for the benefits of

20     the -- this certain unit, of the members of the unit, and their close

21     circle, and that's it.

22        Q.   You said that there were ten copies and that they made those

23     copies and took them to Croatia.  Did you investigate who the recipients

24     of those copies were?  And if you did, could you please tell us is it

25     possible that perhaps one of the recipients of those copies was the

Page 7324

 1     original order issuer?

 2        A.   I think I didn't say there were ten copies but several copies.

 3     So I don't know the exact number of how many copies.  And recipients of

 4     these copies were basically the members of the Skorpions unit who were

 5     involved in this incident, and most of them, and again I'm talking about

 6     the statements which the people gave to the OTP, according to these

 7     statements, most of the tapes were indeed returned back to the head of

 8     this unit, and most probably destroyed.  But not all of them, because if

 9     all of them would be returned back, the OTP would never get one of these

10     copies, and according to the source from whom the OTP obtained this copy,

11     this is the original tape which was -- copy of the original tape which

12     was inside the camera.

13        Q.   Did you try to establish whether, besides the participants in the

14     events, anybody else received one of the tapes, and if they did, would

15     they perhaps be on the list of the individuals who had ordered the

16     killings?  Thank you.

17        A.   Yes.  The OTP tried to obtain also this information, but I think

18     we don't have an information on who exactly received these tapes.  So we

19     know that some of the members of this unit received them.  If any of the

20     individuals who ordered this execution received them as well, that's what

21     the Prosecution does not know.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you investigate whether anybody had the recording

23     in their possession, if they had not participated in the incident, and if

24     that was the case, could that perhaps be the trail to the order issuer?

25     Thank you.

Page 7325

 1        A.   Yes, of course, the OTP endeavoured to obtain at least one

 2     additional copy or information who still have this additional copy of the

 3     tape.  Just to be able to corroborate the other tape which we obtained

 4     from this source, meaning that, you know, that we indeed have everything

 5     what was filmed at that time, so we've never obtained any additional copy

 6     of this same video.  This is the only one we have.  And the same we don't

 7     have any information who might be having additional copies of this tape.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you this because in your statement, in

 9     paragraph 3, you say:

10             "The copies of that film were subsequently cut in sheet."

11             My question is this:  Were copies made for each member or were

12     the recipients of the copies hand-picked?  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, can you tell us which statement of

14     the witness you mean?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't mean statement.  I meant

16     document P1023, page 2, line 3, or, rather, second page, third paragraph,

17     line 6.  Thank you.  Thank you.  We can now see that on the first page.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Paragraph 3, line 6, it is stated copies of that film were

20     subsequently made in Sid.  That is the previous page in English.  The

21     third paragraph.  Can we see the previous page, please revert to the

22     previous page in English.  Paragraph 3.  Thank you.  In line 6, it reads:

23             "Copies" --

24             My question is:  Does the OTP have an accurate list of persons

25     who were made available a copy of this film?

Page 7326

 1        A.   No.  I don't think the OTP has the exact list of the recipients

 2     of these copies.  We for sure have some names, but this is based on the

 3     statement of the provider of this video to the OTP.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did anyone of the participants who have been

 5     convicted by national courts, had any of them been in any sort of contact

 6     or touch or liaised in any way, by telephone or otherwise, with members

 7     of the General Staff?

 8        A.   You mean General Staff of the VRS?  If you mean that, we don't

 9     have -- I mean the OTP does not have any such information.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Medici -- did Medic's immediate superiors, on

11     their part, have any contact with the people who were convicted for

12     events in Srebrenica?

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure she heard the

14     question correctly.  Could the accused kindly repeat the question?

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   I've been asked to repeat the question.  Did anyone of the

17     immediate superiors of Medic and the participants in this crime, has the

18     OTP registered any contacts between those persons with any people from

19     the General Staff or any of those who participated in the events in

20     Srebrenica who have stood trial before this Court?

21        A.   No.  The OTP does not have any such information.  They have been

22     liaisoning through their superior with the minister -- or Deputy Minister

23     of Interior, at that time, which was Tomo Kovac.  He has been in contact

24     with them.  And according to information, I mean, his statement also,

25     with some members of the government of the Republika Srpska at the time.

Page 7327

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have information whether at that time anyone

 2     of their superiors, conditionally speaking, had had any contacts with me

 3     as the accused here, either personally or via telephone?

 4        A.   Currently, the OTP does not have any such information.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Does the OTP know whether any one of the participants

 6     in the event or any of their superior, whether immediate or otherwise,

 7     had come to Zepa during the relevant time when you indicated the events

 8     happened?

 9        A.   The same as before, the OTP does not have any such information.

10        Q.   Thank you.  [Microphone not activated]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, microphone.  Microphone.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone is off.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Have you investigated what exact level in the chain of

15     superiority issued the order for the execution to be filmed?  The exact

16     chain of command hierarchical level.

17        A.   I think I've answered this question several times already

18     throughout my testimony.  So I explained how far the Prosecution got with

19     the investigation, so we know that -- who executed these killings and no,

20     we don't have any information on the superior level of the -- of this

21     incident.  So I can't say anything more than I already told during my

22     testimony.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please just tell us this:  Are there any

24     records about the routes via which the executed came to Trnovo?  Is that

25     something that is known?

Page 7328

 1        A.   No.  There is no such records on it, and basically due to the

 2     fact that we don't even know where exactly they were captured and then

 3     picked up and brought down to the Trnovo area, so the Prosecution does

 4     not have this information.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us this:  As the investigator, did you

 6     unequivocally or without any doubt obtain data and information that the

 7     actual shooting of -- filming of this event had been actually ordered by

 8     someone?

 9        A.   No.  We have no such evidence.

10        Q.   And those two participants who said that they had to film it, who

11     were looking for a battery, had they been tasked with making that film?

12        A.   Yes.  According to their statements, they were tasked to do this,

13     yes.

14        Q.   Does this actually indicate the fact that prior -- prior to the

15     killings, someone had issued an order for the execution?

16        A.   Yes, that's possible.

17        Q.   Thank you Mr. Janc, for sharing with us your information.  After

18     having perused all these materials.  This concludes my questioning.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this concludes my

20     cross-examination as regards this part of Mr. Janc's testimony.  I thank

21     on behalf of the Defence, all the participants in this case, for helping

22     us to understand one another, and I should also like to thank the Trial

23     Chamber.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

25             Are there other -- at the moment, not informed about the

Page 7329

 1     situation.  Are there other parts of the examination-in-chief, when

 2     Mr. Janc testified, you intend to cross-examine the witness?

 3             Mr. Vanderpuye, can you help us?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think so, Mr. President.  As you may recall,

 5     Mr. Janc also testified with respect to exhumations and the number of

 6     bodies that were recovered, association between mass graves, primary and

 7     secondary graves, et cetera, and I think that is what General Tolimir is

 8     referring to when he says -- when he is saying -- when he refers to this

 9     part of his cross-examination as opposed to the other parts of Mr. Janc's

10     direct examination, which don't involve -- which, rather, involve the

11     provenance and authenticity of the video footage that we offered into

12     evidence prior to this part of the cross-examination.

13             I should point out, though, that I do have some redirect

14     examination, and with the court's permission, assuming that I've

15     addressed Mr. Tolimir's position correctly, I'd like to proceed with it.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would first like to know what is the situation,

17     and how do you -- how are your plans to cross-examine the witness?

18             Mr. Gajic, you can help us.

19             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, of course, this

20     witness will appear again here to be cross-examined in connection with

21     his report on DNA analysis, exhumations, and similar issues.  We have

22     already pointed out to the Trial Chamber that we have agreed with the OTP

23     that that portion of the cross-examination shall be conducted after we

24     have heard expert witnesses of the OTP who will also testify on

25     exhumations, DNA analysis, anthropological analysis, et cetera.  After we

Page 7330

 1     hear those witnesses, we shall proceed with our cross-examination of

 2     Mr. Janc on that subject.  As regards this cross-examination, it focused

 3     only on the last portion of the statement given by Mr. Janc in the

 4     examination-in-chief.  Precisely on those topics which Mr. Vanderpuye

 5     referred to.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this update, or

 7     information respectively, or reminder respectively.

 8             Mr. Vanderpuye, your re-examination.

 9             One moment, please.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, the Chamber tried to figure out

12     at which stage of the testimony of this witness we are currently, and

13     I think the topic of this video, of the killing of the six Muslim men,

14     that was part of your examination-in-chief and of the cross-examination,

15     and now you are going to re-examine the witness on this topic solely; is

16     that correct?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And are there -- can you tell us about the

19     situation with the other parts, like DNA analysis and mass graves?  At

20     the moment, we are a little bit lost.  Are we still in the part of

21     examination-in-chief or in the cross-examination of the witness to that

22     issue?

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's a very fair question, Mr. President.

24     I think, and my recollection is not always right, as you know, but

25     I think that with respect to the DNA -- with the report of Mr. Janc, we

Page 7331

 1     had begun cross-examination on that specific issue.  I can't remember how

 2     it was that it was interrupted but it was, and subsequently I believe we

 3     reached an understanding with the Defence about when they would resume

 4     the cross-examination.  Okay.  I'm -- I understand that Mr. Tolimir has

 5     gone three hours and 35 minutes into that cross-examination on that

 6     issue, the DNA, exhumation-related issues, that Mr. Janc first testified

 7     about.  For whatever reason it was interrupted either by another witness

 8     or some circumstance and after that we reached an understanding with the

 9     Defence that he would resume this cross-examination after additional

10     evidence had been received by the Trial Chamber concerning DNA,

11     exhumation, demographic data, and that they would resume the

12     cross-examination following that evidence.

13             In the interim, we were presented with an opportunity to provide

14     additional information to the Trial Chamber concerning the provenance of

15     the videotape, authenticity of that material which we took advantage of,

16     and then we presented direct testimony from Mr. Janc.  So -- which

17     Mr. Tolimir has now cross-examined on.  So we have one completed aspect

18     of cross-examination on a discrete issue, one incomplete

19     cross-examination on a separate issue, and now I'm poised to conduct a

20     redirect examination.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  If Mr. Gajic could agree to

22     that, the Chamber could be inclined to believe you.

23             Mr. Gajic.

24             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, that was a fair

25     representation of the entire situation by my learned friend,

Page 7332

 1     Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             With regard to Mr. Janc's report about DNA analysis and

 3     exhumations, I can't remember exactly what the title of his report is.

 4     The reason why the Defence wanted to examine the witness only after we

 5     hear the other witnesses is the fact that his DNA report encompasses data

 6     from other reports by other experts, and OTP investigators, especially

 7     Mr. Dean Manning, who was the main investigator on behalf of the OTP

 8     before Mr. Janc took over.  That was one of the reasons why we insisted

 9     on hearing those witnesses first, and then on continuing our

10     cross-examination.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe.

12             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I just wanted to concede that I am confused as to

13     whether this witness has even finished his evidence in-chief and when he

14     has been cross-examined, and I was wondering whether, I'm open really,

15     whether it might not be better for the Prosecution to re-examine this

16     witness after he has finished all the cross-examination that is

17     anticipated.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic first.

19             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that we can

20     simplify things.  Mr. Janc is testifying about several topics.  In

21     Mr. Janc we have several witnesses in one person, to put it that way, and

22     I believe the entire series of his evidence about different issues,

23     including the maps, the DNA analysis, and the authentication of video

24     clips can be seen in that way.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye?

Page 7333

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think it's a fair

 2     question, whether or not Mr. Janc should be re-examined in respect of the

 3     totality of his testimony once it's actually concluded.  And I think the

 4     response really is that we are in a position, I think now, to take care

 5     of at least one open issue with respect to his testimony, and I think

 6     wrap it up for good, and hopefully we will be able to do the same as time

 7     permits, and as the opportunities arise, with respect to the scheduling

 8     and other constraints in the proceedings.  So that's really, I think, why

 9     we prefer to do it in this manner.

10             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  I think you may

11     proceed as you proposed.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, the Chamber is of the view that you

13     should commence now your re-examination on this topic.

14             Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

16             Ms. Stewart has already reminded me that Mr. Janc also testified

17     about the maps and he was cross-examined to conclusion on that issue as

18     well.  Thank you, very much, Mr. President.  I'll proceed.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

20        Q.   Mr. Janc, I'm only going to redirect you, I think, on a couple of

21     issues.  If you recall you were shown --

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And I'll need 65 ter 5344 in e-court, please.

23        Q.   During your cross-examination you were shown this document, which

24     is signed by Ljubisa Borovcanin, as you recall, the deputy commander of

25     the RS MUP Special Police Brigade?

Page 7334

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please provide us with the P number.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry, it does have a P number.  It was a

 3     Defence Exhibit, I think.  D130.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was my mistake.  It is not an exhibit with a

 5     P number nor with a D number.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's not your mistake, Mr. President.  He was

 7     shown -- this is a separate document but it's the same substance as the

 8     one he was shown is what the issue is.  I think we can proceed with this

 9     one, substantively it should be the same.

10        Q.   If you recall, you were asked whether or not this particular

11     document contained any references to the Serbian MUP and that was at

12     transcript page 7055, lines 6 through 9, and again lines 20 through 22.

13     Do you remember looking at this particular document or substantively what

14     this document shows and being asked those questions, Mr. Janc?

15        A.   Yes, I do remember that, yes.

16        Q.   And you were also --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic?

18             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I should just like to ask that we

19     also see the page in the Serbian language before the witness gives his

20     answer, please.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I apologise.  I think it would be the next page

22     in the B/C/S.  The reference I've made is to the first paragraph, as

23     you'll recall from the cross-examination.  In particular, it reads,

24     "I was sent there with some MUP forces to participate in the Srebrenica

25     95 operation," and refers to an order that specified that the MUP combat

Page 7335

 1     group would comprise 2nd Special Police Detachment from Sekovici, the 1st

 2     Company of the Zvornik PJP, Special Police Unit, two companies of the

 3     joints forces of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and a MUP

 4     company from the training centre on Jahorina.  Do you remember being

 5     asked about that during your cross-examination?

 6        A.   Yes, I do remember that, yes.

 7        Q.   And in particular, it related to order number 64/95, which was

 8     the 10 July 1995 order that you testified on your direct examination.  Do

 9     you remember that?

10        A.   Yes, I do remember that.

11        Q.   For the record, that's D129.  And you were asked a number of

12     questions by General Tolimir about whether or not this document in

13     particular contained any reference to the MUP from the Republic of

14     Serbia.  Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And was it -- is it your recollection that it does not contain

17     such a reference?

18        A.   Yes.  As I went through the text, page by page, I skimmed the

19     text and I haven't noticed any such reference.

20        Q.   Now, this document in particular was apparently drafted by

21     Ljubisa Borovcanin, as I've indicated before, who was the recipient of

22     the order of 10 July 1995; is that fair?

23        A.   Yes, that's fair.

24        Q.   And to your knowledge, does this report contain complete and

25     accurate information concerning the events that it recounts, which

Page 7336

 1     occurred, in particular, on the 12th of July through, I believe it was,

 2     the 20th of July?

 3        A.   No.  It's not complete.

 4        Q.   I'd like to show you in particular page number 3, and I think it

 5     should also be page number 3 in the B/C/S.  And I just want to focus you,

 6     if I could, on what Mr. Borovcanin writes in this report concerning the

 7     13 July.  As you can see in the translation it indicates 13 July 1993,

 8     but in the original, you can see that it refers to 13 July 1995.  So that

 9     appears to be a typographical error in the English translation.

10             Nevertheless, we can see what Mr. Borovcanin reports for that

11     particular day, which is that the situation is getting more complex

12     because of the advance of Muslim formation who had managed to break

13     through towards Cerska, the 5th Company of the Zvornik PJP and the 2nd

14     MUP Company from the training centre at Jahorina were also engaged.  He

15     says traffic was stopped on the Zvornik-Han Pijesak report, and then

16     forces of the Army of Republika Srpska mostly regrouped in order to go to

17     Zepa.  One member of the Skelani Platoon of the 2nd Special Police

18     Detachment was killed in the fighting with the enemy.

19             Based on what he's written here, does this account for the

20     actions, either his or his unit's in totality, for 13 July 1995?

21        A.   Not at all.

22        Q.   Based on your understanding of those events and the investigation

23     carried out by the Prosecution, can you tell us in the briefest terms

24     what's missing from this report concerning Mr. Borovcanin's conduct and

25     the conduct of his units which he purports to be reporting about in this

Page 7337

 1     document?

 2        A.   Yes.  You have seen during this trial already the video from the

 3     road, Bratunac-Konjevic Polje.  There were a lot of members of the MUP or

 4     PJP members and members of the Jahorina training centre involved in

 5     different activities, and most probably also noticed that many Muslim men

 6     or individuals have surrendered to the members of the MUP along this

 7     road.  And none of this information is written here.  And in addition,

 8     what is even most important, on the evening on 13 of July, there was a

 9     mass execution which took place at Kravica warehouse where the members of

10     the 2nd Special Police Detachment were involved, and also Mr. Borovcanin

11     was passing by with the journalist with his camera, this execution site,

12     and what he only mentioned here is that one member of their -- of this

13     2nd Special Police Detachment was killed, and he was having in mind a

14     special -- this individual who was killed at Kravica warehouse during the

15     execution.  This is the most important part of the day for sure, and he

16     totally omitted this incident.

17        Q.   Does it surprise you given the nature and extent of the

18     involvement of Mr. Borovcanin's unit, as the investigation has revealed,

19     in relation to the crimes that were committed, in particular, the

20     execution that was committed at the Kravica warehouse, in addition to the

21     detentions at Sandici and the treatment of Muslim prisoners by his units,

22     does it surprise you that that is not included in this particular report?

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the events in

25     Kravica discussed by Mr. Vanderpuye were not a topic of either the

Page 7338

 1     cross-examination or the examination-in-chief.  Our topic here were the

 2     Skorpions and the film depicting the Skorpions.  If Mr. Vanderpuye wants

 3     to put questions about Kravica, then I would kindly ask to you give me a

 4     time for additional questions about that topic because that topic was not

 5     raised either during the examination-in-chief or during the

 6     cross-examination of this witness.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, could you explain your position?

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Sure.  What I'm

 9     raising -- I actually don't know whether it should be within the hearing

10     of the witness.  I suppose it's okay.  What I'm raising essentially has

11     to do with the cross-examination by General Tolimir with this particular

12     document and the suggestion that the fact that this document does not

13     contain a reference to Serbian MUP or their involvement with either

14     Mr. Borovcanin's units or elements of the VRS, is somehow an omission

15     that speaks to the issue by demonstrating that this document in

16     particular doesn't -- is not a complete or accurate document concerning

17     the involvement of Mr. Borovcanin or Mr. Borovcanin's units as he reports

18     it in this instrument.  What General Tolimir essentially did with this

19     witness is tried to imply that because a reference to the Serbian MUP is

20     not here, that perhaps the July 10th order where it is explicitly stated

21     is either inaccurate or incorrect based upon the strength of this

22     document.  I'm simply establishing that this document is not one to be

23     relied on, not only for that proposition but for most other propositions

24     that it contains in terms of its completeness and accuracy.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 7339

 1             Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The only

 3     point in common that I heard in the additional questions was the term

 4     "Serbian MUP."  He can talk about that, but not about any other events.

 5     Allow me, then, to put questions about those other events as well.  The

 6     witness has testified only about the Skorpion movie.  He didn't say

 7     anything about the terrorists in Srebrenica or anything else.  Thank you.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Specifically, Mr. President, the witness was

 9     asked by General Tolimir with respect to this document, which is the

10     document I'm using:

11             "Is there any reference to MUP of Serbia in this order -- in this

12     report?"

13             This is at page 7055.  The answer was:

14             "No, I don't see it right now.  I don't think there is a

15     reference in it."

16             Later on, at line 20 on the same page, he says:

17             "Is there a reference anywhere to the MUP of Serbia on the second

18     page of Borovcanin's report?"

19             And the answer was:

20             "No, I don't see any."

21             And then he was asked, the ultimate -- he was asked again -- he

22     was asked -- he asked:

23             "Since you've studied this document," this is at page 7056, "and

24     in chronological terms it describes the events that took place on the

25     10th and then on the 11th and then in the penultimate passage it

Page 7340

 1     describes the events on the 12th of July 1995, and then the penultimate

 2     passage on the third page it describes the events on the 13th of July,

 3     and finally the events on the 15th -- on the 16th, 15th, and 14th and

 4     then on the 17th, 18th, and 19th, and 20th of July, on the fifth page of

 5     this document, my question is this:  You speak the language, you studied

 6     the document, does Commander Borovcanin refer anywhere in the document to

 7     the presence of Skorpions?"

 8             Implicit in his line of questioning is that this document

 9     accounts for what Mr. Borovcanin was doing in its totality because if

10     it's not there, the implicit argument is that if it's true that Serbian

11     MUP had any involvement with Mr. Borovcanin, it should be in this

12     document.  My line of questioning only establishes that even if it should

13     be in the document, it may not be in the document for other reasons.  For

14     example, on the 13th of July, the Kravica warehouse is no where

15     mentioned.  On the 13th of July the Sandici meadow is no where mentioned.

16     On the 13th of July, the basis -- the reason why his subordinate was

17     killed is no where mentioned.  So it should come as no surprise to

18     anybody that the references contained in this report don't necessarily

19     correspond to the order which explicitly mentions Serbian MUP, which was

20     his entire line of cross-examination.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23     I emphasise yet once again the emphasis was on the term "Serbian MUP,"

24     and my question was whether there was the term anywhere.  In the question

25     put to the witness by Mr. Vanderpuye, he doesn't mention the Serbian MUP.

Page 7341

 1     I'm asking him again whether the Skorpions participated on that and the

 2     witness said it very loud and clear during his testimony that the

 3     Skorpions were not in Srebrenica.  Is the Prosecutor challenging the

 4     credibility both of this witness and his testimony in today's trial?

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Well, I think that goes without saying.  I'm not

 7     challenging the credibility of the witness.  I'm challenging the

 8     reliability of the document, particularly as was -- as was suggested

 9     during the cross-examination by General Tolimir in his use of the

10     document to challenge the veracity, the reliability, and the accuracy of

11     the 10 July order -- 10 July 1995 order, which specifically references

12     the Serbian MUP as a composite, subordinate element to the same author,

13     to Ljubisa Borovcanin, and that's the reason why I've raised and I've

14     attacked the completeness and the accuracy of this document, because it

15     speaks to the completeness and the accuracy with which he, Borovcanin,

16     reports A, the nature of the order that he received on the 10th of July,

17     in addition to other events.  And what I've explored right now with the

18     witness are those other key events that if this report is to be taken as

19     complete and accurate, ought to be here and clearly are not.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So the Chamber has considered your positions,

23     from the whole cross-examination, we can take it that Mr. Tolimir indeed

24     raised this document and the validity of this document and reliability,

25     but he didn't mention the events in Kravica warehouse and Sandici meadow

Page 7342

 1     or somewhere else so that the Chamber would appreciate if you could limit

 2     your re-examination to this document without dealing with other events

 3     than raised by Mr. Tolimir in his cross-examination.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Mr. Janc, having had an opportunity to look at this document, do

 6     you consider it accurate and complete with respect to the matters related

 7     in it?

 8        A.   No, not at all, and I already stated that it is not complete.

 9        Q.   And in your view, does the fact that this document fails to

10     mention -- or fails to mention the Serbian MUP in any way impact upon the

11     validity or the accuracy of the 10 July 1995 order addressed to

12     Ljubisa Borovcanin, where the Serbian MUP is expressly mentioned?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review Mr. Borovcanin's statement,

15     I believe, of 20th February?  I believe it's 2002.

16        A.   Yes, I have, sometimes ago.

17        Q.   I'd like to show you this statement, and I'd like to direct your

18     attention in particular to where he talks about this 10 July order.  It's

19     65 ter --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22     Mr. Vanderpuye is challenging something or proving something which the

23     Defence has not contested.  The Defence introduced 1D289 which became

24     Exhibit 129 -- 1D29.  I fail to see why is a document being introduced

25     now again which had not been the subject of either examination-in-chief

Page 7343

 1     or cross-examination, which is what it should have been rather than be

 2     the basis for something else.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You were referring to the document D129; is that

 4     correct?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.  And that was

 6     introduced by the Defence.  It is now designated as D129, yes.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye?

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I understand D129 is the 10 July 1995 order.

 9     I also understood from the nature of the cross-examination that was

10     carried out by General Tolimir, that he challenges the suggestion in that

11     document, and the conclusion reached by Mr. Janc in his testimony, that

12     the Serbian MUP was -- that the Skorpions unit, I should say, was a part

13     of the Serbian MUP.  I think he repeatedly took the position that either

14     there was a deficiency of proof on that point or that was simply not the

15     case, based upon his cross-examination.  He suggested that the Skorpions

16     unit was a unit from the RSK, or that they were not subordinated to the

17     Serbian MUP.

18             Now, if he's changed position on that, then I don't see that

19     there is any need to continue in this line of examination, but it seems

20     to me pretty clear from his cross-examination of Mr. Janc that his

21     position has been that there is not evidence that the Skorpions unit was

22     a part of the Serbian MUP which is what I intend to show in the redirect

23     examination.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, your position on that, and if

25     I recall correctly, you used this document, D129, in your

Page 7344

 1     cross-examination.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That's right.  Our

 3     position is that the word "Skorpions" is not mentioned once in this

 4     document, in no place.  And I use Borovcanin's report to prove that they

 5     had not gone to Srebrenica irrespective of the order.  The order does

 6     exist.  Whether it was complied with, I don't know.  He said now during

 7     this interrogation -- examination that they had not been in Srebrenica.

 8     What is written in the order of the 1st, which was introduced by the OTP

 9     is one thing, and whether anything was realised from that order in

10     Srebrenica, that is another matter.  Borovcanin does not refer to any

11     unit that participated in Srebrenica.

12             So that is the position of the Defence, that neither the

13     Skorpions nor the MUP of Serbia participated in the events of

14     Serbia [as interpreted].  If Mr. Vanderpuye wishes to contest that, to

15     challenge that, then he can do so.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, in the events of Serbia?  That was

17     page 59, line 9, but I think that was either your explanation or

18     misinterpretation:  "... that neither the Skorpions nor the MUP of Serbia

19     participated in the events of Serbia."  That must be something else.

20             Mr. Gajic?

21             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] It was said Srebrenica.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter also said Srebrenica.

23             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it might have been a

24     misinterpretation.  The exact -- the correct phrase was events in

25     Srebrenica.

Page 7345

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We heard Serbia.  But

 2     nevertheless, Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Vanderpuye was not in the position to put

 3     a question.  He just called -- wanted to call up this document and didn't

 4     start to put a question to the witness on this topic.  We shall see how

 5     he will proceed.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd asked the witness

 7     if he had had an opportunity to review a 2002 statement of, I think it's

 8     actually Ljubomir Borovcanin, to the OTP and he indicated that he had.  I

 9     wanted to show him page 20 of this document.  It's Exhibit 65 ter 3283.

10     I think it's already in e-court.

11             Mr. President, I am reminded that I should tender, and I'd like

12     to tender what I used with the witness just previously, 65 ter 5344.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1335, Your Honours.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we will need to go to page 19 in the

16     B/C/S.  Mr. President, this is one of these odd translations where we

17     have the statement of Mr. Borovcanin.  In the B/C/S it's recorded that he

18     reads a document in English, so you see the document that he reads out in

19     English and it doesn't appear in the B/C/S transcription.  And I'll refer

20     you specifically to where I'm talking about.  It's in the middle --

21     actually, it's at line 9.  And I want to refer the witness to that as

22     well, the -- I think it's referred to in the B/C/S -- I think it might be

23     right at the top of the document in the B/C/S, that refers to the reading

24     of the document out in English.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

Page 7346

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Borovcanin does

 2     not speak English.  And secondly a document is being introduced here

 3     which does not arise from either -- which was not the subject of either

 4     examination-in-chief or cross-examination.  This is introducing a

 5     document of someone who has been allegedly convicted.  I've said that

 6     this does not refer to the Serbian MUP.  Thank you.  This is a statement

 7     from 2002 and it is being read while we are examining an investigator of

 8     the OTP, and I think that is inappropriate.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber doesn't know what is going on at the

10     moment.

11             Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I can explain it, I think.  Pretty easily.  What

13     General Tolimir used during the course of cross-examination of this

14     witness is a document that was prepared by Ljubisa Borovcanin relative to

15     the order that he admits that he received on 10 July 1995.  And

16     specifically as to the content of that order, which we've all seen, which

17     is D129.  What I'm showing the witness is a statement of Mr. Borovcanin

18     concerning the very same order that was made in 2002, and what I want to

19     put to the witness is, A, the content of the order that he admits that he

20     received, and whether the content of the order that he admits that he

21     received is consistent with the order that General Tolimir -- that the

22     document General Tolimir used with this witness on cross-examination

23     purports.

24             General Tolimir -- the document that he used is, I think it's

25     from around the 5th of September 1995, in the very first paragraph that

Page 7347

 1     I've just shown, I think it's 5344 -- now it's P1335, in the very first

 2     paragraph, mentions the order that Mr. Borovcanin says he received, which

 3     didn't contain Serbian MUP.  The order itself, as we've all seen, D129,

 4     specifically references Serbian MUP.  This is a statement of

 5     Mr. Borovcanin concerning that order and commenting about when he

 6     received it, under what circumstances he received it, which I think is

 7     relevant to the question that was raised by General Tolimir as concerns

 8     the content of that order.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As this statement was given by the relevant

10     person who is said to have received this order, you should proceed, but,

11     again, limit it to the authenticity of the previous document.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Mr. Janc, have you had an opportunity to see this statement?

14        A.   Yes, I have.

15        Q.   And I will direct your attention specifically to line -- I can be

16     more specific than it was before -- it will be line 12 where it begins,

17     "Fourthly."  In reference to the 10 July order, Mr. Borovcanin says:

18             "Fourthly, these companies of the joint forces of MUP of

19     Republika Srpska, Serbia, and Republika Srpska, that should be withdrawn

20     from the" -- it says "Trnovska" and then -- "Trnovo battlefield.  This

21     should be done during the night and the unit should be gathered during

22     the 11th of July, 1995, until 12.00 in Bratunac in front of the SJB, in

23     front of the public security station, except for the 2nd Special

24     Detachment of police that will start towards, it's not go, but towards

25     its where he orders it to go on 11th of July 1995 during the afternoon

Page 7348

 1     hours."

 2             Do you see that part there?

 3        A.   Yes, I see it.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, do you have the relevant part in

 5     B/C/S on the screen?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I don't, Mr. President.  And

 7     thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was my concern.  Mr. Vanderpuye, could you

 9     call up, please, the correct page?

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I thought we had the correct page up there,

11     Mr. President.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, would it be a good idea to have

13     the second break now and you figure out the specific part of this

14     document?

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It might be but I think there is a reference,

16     and maybe Mr. Gajic can help me out here, I think there is a reference to

17     Mr. Borovcanin reading this out in English.  And it might be at line 7.

18     But maybe I'm mistaken.

19             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in line 7, it says "the

20     translation of the document into English continues."

21             The translation of the document into English continues.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Whatever that means, I think we should have our

23     second break now.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will resume at quarter past 6.00 and hopefully

Page 7349

 1     we will have the right part on the screen.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, did you find the relevant part of

 7     the B/C/S version?

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes and no.  No, I have not found it because

 9     it's apparently not transcribed in the same way as the English

10     translation was somehow transcribed.  However, I have gotten to the heart

11     of the matter and I think I can explain it.  It appears that the

12     attribution of line 7 through line 20 in the English, to Mr. Borovcanin,

13     is a misattribution, it should have been attributed to the -- I'm sorry,

14     line 9 through line 20 is a misattribution, it should have been

15     attributed to the interpreter, who was translating at the time.

16             So what we have is the interpreter reading the document, and then

17     you can see the following comments by Mr. Borovcanin, which explains the

18     reference in the B/C/S to the translation continuing.  So that's

19     fundamentally what's going on.  I don't think it has much bearing on the

20     nature of the questions I plan to put to the witness in any event.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where do you find this part in the B/C/S version?

22     Which line?

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  B/C/S version you will see at line 3, there is a

24     question concerning the RSK, and then if you go down at line 7 of the

25     B/C/S, you will see -- you will see a reference to the interpretation

Page 7350

 1     continuing.  And that is the reference to lines 9 through 20, I believe,

 2     of the English.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Maybe

 5     Mr. Vanderpuye is looking for page 34, line 17 and 18, where Borovcanin

 6     speaks about those joint forces.  These are the two lines where he speaks

 7     about them.  Let me read:

 8             "The mixed company of the joint forces of the MUP of the Republic

 9     of Serbian Krajina was in Trnovo and did not act pursuant to this order."

10             Maybe I have been of assistance.  I hope I have.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, was that of assistance?  Or was

12     it the other part of the B/C/S version?

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  It's actually -- it's

14     not of assistance.  It's -- it's not specifically what I was referring

15     to.  What I'm referring to in this context is the order itself and that's

16     what I'd like to direct the witness to.  I think to put it in context,

17     and this will help the Trial Chamber, I think, is that the 10 July order,

18     which is the order that Mr. Borovcanin refers to in the September 1995

19     report, put to the witness by General Tolimir, is the subject matter of

20     this February 2002 statement by Mr. Borovcanin, wherein Mr. Borovcanin

21     provided that order to the Office of the Prosecutor.  And so this

22     statement speaks to the nature of the order that he in fact received,

23     that is the subject matter of the document General Tolimir put to this

24     witness on cross-examination.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I suggest that you read the relevant part you

Page 7351

 1     want to use with this witness into the record in English so that then

 2     Mr. Tolimir receives the translation of that part, and then we will

 3     later, after that, see if it relates to that what you are supposing.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             Let me start at line 4.  This is the investigator, AG, it should

 6     Allistair Graham, who says to Mr. Tolimir:

 7             "We will have to understand what that means," referring to --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, I must interrupt you.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said "who says to Mr. Tolimir."

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Ah, I'm sorry.  Mr. Borovcanin.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you were referring to Mr. Borovcanin.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much.

14             Who says, referring to the word, it looks like "posebne

15     jedinice," he says:

16             "We will have to understand what that means."

17             The interpreter says:

18             "Not Special Forces but separate of the centres of, again, public

19     security.  Those are the regional centres, Zvornik mixed company of --

20     sorry, did I say, of the 1st Company of this Special Police unit, then

21     again mixed company of the joint forces of MUP of Republika Srpska."

22             What the transcript should next read is the interpreter speaking

23     who says:

24             "Of Republika Srpska Krajina, of Serbia, Republika Srpska and the

25     company from the training centre in Jahorina.  Thirdly, I appoint for the

Page 7352

 1     commander of the MUP units, Ljubisa Borovcanin as the deputy commander of

 2     the Special Police Brigade.  Fourthly, these companies of the joint

 3     forces of MUP of Republika Srpska, Serbia and Republika Srpska that

 4     should be withdrawn from the" -- and it says "Trnovos -- Trnoska --

 5     Trnovo battlefield, this should be done during the night and the unit

 6     should be gathered during the 11th of July 1995 until 12.00 in Bratunac

 7     in front of the SJB, in front of the public security station, except for

 8     the 2nd Special Detachment of police that will start toward its -- not go

 9     but toward its where he orders it to go on 11th of July 1995 during the

10     hours -- during the afternoon hours.

11             "Fifth, the commander of the unit is obliged to get, to contact

12     upon his arrival, to contact the Chief of Staff of the corps, General

13     Krstic, commander of the staff Tomislav Kovac."

14             This is the --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to ask first, Mr. Tolimir, if he

16     received interpretation of that part.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

18     not received the interpretation.  In any case, Mr. Vanderpuye was reading

19     from 1D289 and I was following what he was reading.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, was -- what Mr. Vanderpuye read in

21     English, was that interpreted to you in B/C/S?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That was not interpreted into

23     B/C/S, but all is there in the document.  I was looking at the document

24     so I believe that I've got the right thing.  Thank you, because they are

25     reading the order in English and that's all.

Page 7353

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, I think you have received the B/C/S

 2     translation?

 3             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of what Mr. Vanderpuye was

 4     reading, but maybe I can explain.  What Mr. Vanderpuye was reading

 5     corresponds with the text that Mr. Tolimir has in front of him and that

 6     is Exhibit -- the exhibit number that was previously mentioned.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The problem is that we must be sure that the

 8     accused has received proper translation or whether he has the translation

 9     in hard copy in front of him.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

11     the text of the order, and the interpreter was reading in English, or

12     rather, Mr. Vanderpuye was reading in English and the interpreter was

13     interpreting.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's fine.  I take it that the text we have on

15     the screen of -- on the left side in English read by Mr. Vanderpuye was

16     interpreted to you.  If that is the case, Mr. Vanderpuye, you should

17     continue.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Now, first, Mr. Janc, and I think -- does this correspond with

20     the text, as you recall it, of the 10 July 1995 order which refers

21     specifically to Mr. Borovcanin?

22        A.   Yes, it corresponds.

23        Q.   And that for the record is -- as General Tolimir has indicated is

24     D129, formerly 65 ter 1D289.

25             I'd like to refer you to the bottom of this page and I think we

Page 7354

 1     should be able to find it also in B/C/S, where you will see there is a

 2     reference -- a question, rather, by Mr. Graham where he asks

 3     Mr. Borovcanin:

 4             "Where were you when you received this document, this order, and

 5     when did you receive it?"

 6             And Mr. Borovcanin responds that he received it, he was in

 7     Trnovo, which is the Sarajevo battlefield, and he was there as the

 8     commander of the joint police forces in that battlefield or front line.

 9             Do you recall having reviewed that?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   And is your recollection that Mr. Borovcanin received this order

12     on the 10th of July 1995 and that the order that he received was in

13     written form?

14        A.   Yes, correct.

15        Q.   And is the order that he received the one that is in evidence now

16     before the Trial Chamber?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   And the order that he received specifically refers to Serbian MUP

19     units, does it not?

20        A.   Yes.  Also to Serbian MUP units.

21        Q.   All right.  I'd like to take you, I think, to a bit of a

22     different area.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, before you move to that different

24     area, I have a question for the witness.

25             While you were reading out this part of the statement of

Page 7355

 1     Mr. Borovcanin on page 66, lines 13 and 14, you were recorded - and this

 2     corresponds with the text itself:

 3             "Fourthly these companies of the joint forces of MUP of Republika

 4     Srpska, Serbia and Republika Srpska, that should be withdrawn from

 5     the ..."  and so on.

 6             Mr. Janc, have you any idea what he means by MUP of Republika

 7     Srpska, Serbia and then again Republika Srpska, as it is written in the

 8     English version of the statement of Mr. Borovcanin?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  As it was indicated by

10     Mr. Vanderpuye, this is not actually what Mr. Borovcanin is saying but

11     what is interpreted into English from this 10 July document, and I would

12     say this is what was interpreted by interpreter, and he just interpreted

13     twice Republika Srpska.  That's my understanding at least, because

14     I think in a document itself you can see reference to Republika Srpska

15     only once and to MUP Serbia in addition, and what is missing here is

16     I think MUP of the Republika Srpska Krajina, so that one is missing.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As you're able to read B/C/S, could you point out

18     in which line we find this part, on the right side of the screen?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, that's the problem we have here because

20     that's not -- that's not what is on the B/C/S version, and because it

21     just says that the translation continues.  And that's the whole part

22     which is missing on the B/C/S, because the translation from the B/C/S --

23     actually, the interpreter was reading the document which was given, this

24     10 July document, order, and the interpreter was translating this order

25     to the investigator into English, and that's why we don't have this part

Page 7356

 1     of it into B/C/S -- B/C/S translation.  So I can't point it, direct you

 2     to the correct line, but as Mr. Vanderpuye indicated, it should be line

 3     7.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 5             Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I would

 7     like to tender the statement.  I think I can offer a little bit more in

 8     terms of its provenance or relevance to this particular part -- aspect of

 9     Mr. Janc's testimony which can be found on the following page in the

10     English.  I think it will still be on the same page in the B/C/S.  At the

11     bottom of the page, you will see, first, Mr. Graham ask a question and

12     then Mr. Borovcanin is answering, and I think that will help clarify why

13     it's relevant to be admitted.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think we should discuss the

15     problem of admission or not at a later stage when Mr. Vanderpuye has used

16     the additional part.  Then you will get the floor and we would be

17     interested to receive your comment about the admission of this document.

18             Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would just direct

20     the attention of the Court to -- it will be line 5 through line 11, in

21     the English, it's page 21, I think, in e-court.  It's the same page in

22     the B/C/S.  And it reads where the investigator asked Mr. Borovcanin:

23             "What date you received the order?"

24             His answer is:

25             "On 10th July in the afternoon."

Page 7357

 1             And following that he asks:

 2             "In what form did he receive it?

 3             And Mr. Borovcanin indicates that it was in a written form, and

 4     he says:  "You can see it."

 5             And in particular I direct your attention to that because he's

 6     talking about the physical order, the 10 July order, that is now before

 7     the Trial Chamber.  And that's why this is, I think, important in order

 8     to explain, one, the circumstances under which the order came into

 9     possession of the OTP, and also in terms of its content.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I'm again a little bit confused.

11     In line 8, I can read, LJB, if it is Mr. Borovcanin or the interpreter, I

12     have no idea.  And then it reads:

13             "No written form, written orders.  You can see it."

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.  The question was:

15             "And how did you receive it?  Was it in -- was it in this format

16     or was it verbal?"

17             And the answer is:

18             "No, written form.  Written orders.  You can see it."

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Might be a different interpretation because

20     I don't see after the word "no" a comma.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, I understand that.  I understand that.

22     I think, however, that the statement itself clarifies that.  I know that

23     you don't have the whole thing -- well, you do actually but I've only

24     shown you a portion of the statement because I think this is the most

25     germane part to it, but it explains, if you go to the preceding pages,

Page 7358

 1     you can actually see where the document is presented to the investigators

 2     and so on, and the whole discourse is about what does it say, which is

 3     why you have the interpreter interpreting it for the investigators, the

 4     investigators asking questions about whether separate units or special

 5     units and so on and so forth, and that explains the circumstances under

 6     which the order came into possession of the OTP and also its contents,

 7     which actually contradict the contents of the document that was put to

 8     the witness by General Tolimir.  So that's its basis of relevancy.

 9             I think if you'd like an additional showing, given the amount of

10     time that I have left, I'd rather prefer to move on to some other matters

11     which I think are more germane to some issues that were raised during the

12     course of cross-examination, and perhaps I can provide you something in

13     more detail in writing if necessary in order to qualify this particular

14     document.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you have read part of this

16     document into the record.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But didn't put a question to the witness on that.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I can put a question to the witness.  And the

20     question is as follows:

21        Q.   Based upon the references that I've just read into the record

22     concerning Mr. Borovcanin's reference to the 10 July order and its

23     written form, do you know whether or not that order was received during

24     the context of this particular interview in 2002, February?

25        A.   Yes.  It was.  It was provided to the OTP by Mr. Borovcanin.  And

Page 7359

 1     maybe I can just comment on this observation by Presiding Judge regarding

 2     what is written here when it says "no written form, written orders."

 3     From the B/C/S version of it, it's very clear what did he say, it's line

 4     20, 24, on the other side, where he says, and I'll read it out in B/C/S

 5     and it will be perhaps translated to you better into English.  It says:

 6             [Interpretation] "It says no, no a written order.  Here, like you

 7     can see it here."

 8             [In English] So it's a little bit bad translation on English one

 9     but it's quite clear from the B/C/S what he was saying.

10        Q.   That's quite helpful.  Thank you, Mr. Janc.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the Prosecution has tendered this

12     document.  What is your position?

13             Mr. Gajic.

14             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have just one

15     problem with this document; namely, that the translation of it is very

16     poor.  The English version frequently does not correspond to the Serbian

17     version, and as far as we know, Mr. Borovcanin does not speak English.

18     So this document could be tendered only after a proper translation of the

19     interview into English has been rendered.  In other words, we would need

20     to double check the translation or redo the translation of this document,

21     rather, and only then admit it into the file.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber is not in the position to receive

24     this document into evidence because of -- there are several issues.  One

25     is indeed the translation issue.  We have spent quite a lot of time to

Page 7360

 1     figure out if it is the interpreter reading from the document, if it's

 2     the statement of Mr. Borovcanin.  The interpretation as we saw just with

 3     the last part, namely, and the missing comma which turns the whole

 4     sentence into the contrary, this is -- doesn't seem to be reliable.

 5     Especially because we have the document, the order of the 10th of July,

 6     already in evidence, and in our view, there is no need to admit this

 7     statement of Mr. Borovcanin into evidence.

 8             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just want to be

10     clear, I understand that it's not being admitted and that's fine.  In

11     terms of its relevance, however, my use of it was purely to address the

12     5th September 1995 Borovcanin report that was used with this witness

13     which fails to mention Serbian MUP, and the reason why I've offered this

14     is to explain that the document which does mention Serbian MUP was, in

15     fact, the document that Mr. Borovcanin received, which is contrary to the

16     document 5th September 1995 document which doesn't mention Serbian MUP as

17     among the units that Mr. Borovcanin was supposed to receive.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, we have all that on the record.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  All arguments on the record and we can give

21     weight to it at a later stage, without using the document on the screen

22     now.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  I will move.

Page 7361

 1        Q.   You were asked, Mr. Janc, well, on a number of occasions, about

 2     what specific documents you may have relied on in making certain

 3     conclusions about either the relationship between the Serbian MUP and the

 4     Skorpions unit or the Skorpions unit involvement in Srebrenica, and I'd

 5     like to ask in particular, for example, you mentioned that you received

 6     information that Muslim men from Srebrenica were transported by bus to

 7     Trnovo.  Can you tell us what that's based on?

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is perhaps a

10     mistake in the interpretation, or one consciously made.  He refers to

11     Skorpions and their involvement in Srebrenica.  They were never involved

12     in Srebrenica.  This is obvious from this document tendered -- proposed

13     to be admitted.  Maybe he was -- he meant to say Trnovo, perhaps.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, I meant to say what I said which is that he

16     was asked about that on cross-examination which I think General Tolimir

17     can recall that he did ask about.  In addition to that, he was asked

18     about how it was that they came to be in Trnovo.  I think I have a

19     specific paragraph or page reference.  It's at page 7034 of the

20     transcript:

21             "Q.  Thank you.  We are still talking about information

22     concerning the executions of these six persons in Trnovo, I won't mention

23     their names, did you personally investigate how they ended up in Trnovo,

24     which is 200 kilometres away from Srebrenica?

25             "A.  Not me personally but several steps towards this regarding

Page 7362

 1     this issue have been done by the other members of the OTP investigators,

 2     my colleagues, and there is a statement of one of the individuals who was

 3     interviewed who says that these individuals, not only this, but some

 4     other individuals were brought from the area of Srebrenica after the fall

 5     of Srebrenica by buses and trucks from Trnovo."

 6             So I'm asking the witness if he can tell us what statement he

 7     relied upon in making that representation.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a fair question.  Put it to the witness.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have.

10        Q.   Can you answer that, Mr. Janc?

11        A.   Yes.  This is based on a statement of the witness, and if I said

12     during my testimony before that they were brought from the area of

13     Srebrenica after the fall of Srebrenica by buses and trucks from Trnovo,

14     it should be to Trnovo instead of from Trnovo.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 6779.

16     I think, Mr. President, this should not be broadcast.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And I think we should, with the Court's

19     permission, please go into private session.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7363











11 Pages 7363-7367 redacted. Private session.















Page 7368

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So we are at the end of our today's hearing.  We

19     were too optimistic to expect to finish the redirect by the OTP with this

20     witness today.  We have to postpone that for a later stage when the

21     witness will be called again.

22             We have to adjourn for today and resume next monday in the

23     afternoon, 2.15 in this courtroom.  We adjourn.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25                           7.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the

Page 7369

 1                           8th day of November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.