Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8113

 1                           Thursday, 25 November 2010.

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             We can predict a quite unusual hearing today, I think.

 7             Mr. Elderkin, what is the situation?

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  Good morning, Your Honours, everybody.

 9             Your Honours, we have, I understand, Mr. Janc available to

10     complete what is left of any redirect examination and any continuation

11     from the Defence.  In addition to that -- that will be handled by

12     Mr. Vanderpuye, on the part of the Prosecution.  And I'm here today

13     simply to finish the tendering process from yesterday.

14             Also, there's one short preliminary.  There are a few documents

15     for which there are now translations that had been previously MFI'd, and

16     perhaps I could just list those straight away for the record.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We can start with that.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  So these are Exhibit numbers P00200, P00610,

19     P00619, P01152, and P01153.  And translations for all of those have now

20     been up-loaded.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

22             We struggled a little bit with e-court.  It was not working from

23     the outset.  And I take it that these exhibits are now admitted into

24     evidence.  Thank you very much.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  In addition, for the tendering of the documents

Page 8114

 1     from the end of Mr. Blaszczyk's direct examination yesterday, Ms. Stewart

 2     circulated a marked-up version of our tender list for Mr. Blaszczyk, with

 3     items marked in blue relating to the corroborating materials on the

 4     chart, 65 ter 6826, that we used for the second part of yesterday's

 5     examination, and then the items in green are the note-books, themselves.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.  Indeed, we

 7     received this e-mail yesterday, but we are not in a position to decide on

 8     that now because we have to check it.

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:  Very good, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

11             At this point in time, I would like to ask the Defence,

12     Mr. Tolimir, if you are in a position to commence your cross-examination

13     of Mr. Blaszczyk today, or is it still your position to postpone that for

14     a later stage?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said yesterday

16     that we can put one or two formal questions to Mr. Blaszczyk about what

17     he had said, not about the documents that were shown, and I thought it

18     would be best to do it after I review all the documents, because the

19     other parties in other proceedings received allocations of up to three

20     months.  Karadzic, for instance, is still adjourned for the same purpose

21     of reviewing documents.  And I need also a certain period of time to

22     study this material, because I want to see all that my commander has said

23     and written about me during the war.  I know most of it, but I still want

24     to review this material.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, Mr. Tolimir, this is a very acceptable

Page 8115

 1     position.  It was just a question if you have changed your position since

 2     we have discussed it yesterday.  It is up to you to decide, and we will

 3     wait until you will indicate that you are prepared to conduct your

 4     cross-examination.

 5             In this case, we should call and bring into the courtroom the

 6     next witness for continuation of the redirect of Mr. Janc.

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  And perhaps you can guess my question,

 8     Your Honour, but since I won't be dealing with Mr. Janc, may I be excused

 9     for the rest of the session?

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Of course, Mr. Elderkin.  Have a nice working

11     day.

12             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14                           WITNESS:  DUSAN JANC [Resumed]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, Mr. Janc, and good morning,

16     Mr. Vanderpuye.

17             May I remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth you made

18     a long time ago still applies today.

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I understand, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye is continuing his redirect

21     examination.

22             Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President, and good morning to

24     you, Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone, and good morning to you,

25     Mr. Janc.

Page 8116

 1             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]

 3        Q.   I have only a few questions left with respect to your redirect

 4     examination.

 5             You do recall that during the course of your cross-examination,

 6     General Tolimir asked you about your having reviewed certain information

 7     regarding the authenticity and reliability of the Skorpions video, do

 8     you?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   All right.  And the last time you testified, I showed you the

11     statement of a Goran Stoparic.  Do you remember that?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I'd like to ask you if you, in preparation for your direct

14     testimony on this issue, reviewed the statements of Slobodan Stojkovic

15     concerning the authenticity of the Skorpions video footage.

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   And did you rely on information contained in that statement, to

18     some extent, in providing the information that you did to the

19     Trial Chamber concerning the circumstances under which that footage was

20     shot and, in fact, came into the possession of the Office of the

21     Prosecutor?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   I'd like to show you 65 ter 6782.

24             If I can have that in e-court, please.

25             What I'm showing you, Mr. Janc, and I think the heading of it is

Page 8117

 1     pretty self-evident, but it is a statement dated 15 July 2005, it is a

 2     statement of Slobodan Stojkovic, and it is made to an investigating

 3     judge, Milan Dilparic of the Belgrade District Court War Crimes Chamber.

 4     Do you see that?

 5        A.   Yes, I do see that, but I have to correct you; it's 15 of June,

 6     2005.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.  I appreciate that.  Is this a statement

 8     that you reviewed and relied on, as we've just mentioned, before?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Now, if we can go to the second page of this

11     document, I think both in the English and the B/C/S.

12        Q.   You recall that the last time you were here -- just a moment.

13     That would have been on the 17th of November.  I asked you a question.

14     It's at -- I have it as 6780 of the transcript -- I'm sorry, 7851 and

15     7852 of the transcript.  I asked you about a person named Boca in

16     relation to a paragraph we were reviewing in Goran Stoparic's statement,

17     and, in particular, I asked you whether this person named Boca in that

18     statement could have been Slobodan Medic.  You indicated that that was

19     the case.  Here, we can see the investigating judge essentially asking

20     the same question of Mr. Stojkovic, and you see his response, that Boca

21     refers to Medic, Slobodan.  That's in the second sentence and third

22     sentence of this page.  Is that some of the information that you relied

23     upon in first answering that question as I put it to you back on the 17th

24     of November?

25        A.   Yes, correct.

Page 8118

 1        Q.   And do you have any other source of information with respect to

 2     that conclusion?

 3        A.   Yes.  There were other statements of other witnesses which also

 4     said that Boca is nickname of Slobodan Medic.

 5        Q.   Could you just remind us who Slobodan Medic was or is in relation

 6     to the Skorpions Unit.

 7        A.   Slobodan Medic was the leader of the Skorpions Unit.

 8        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to take you to a different part of the statement,

 9     and I'll need to go to page 12 in the English, and I think that should

10     correspond to page 17 in the B/C/S.  Okay.

11             The first thing I wanted to ask you about was:  This Slobodan

12     Stojkovic, the statement that we have here in front of us, can you tell

13     us briefly what his role was with respect to the Skorpions video footage?

14        A.   He was the one who filmed the incident, so he was having his

15     camera -- actually, the camera, not his camera, but the camera in his

16     hand, and he was filming the entire footage.

17        Q.   I think you were asked some questions on cross-examination about

18     what the reason was that he shot this footage and whether it was the

19     result of an order.  Do you recall that?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Now, having reviewed this statement, we can see, right in the

22     middle of the page in the English, and I think it will be at the bottom

23     of the page in the B/C/S, Mr. Stojkovic states that:

24             "It happened that a Kosanovic, Dusko, fell ill and had to be

25     returned home, and four or five days, no one made any recordings.  I set

Page 8119

 1     together with them, fooling around, and then Boca said, 'Go and take it

 2     and to -- and record something, since you're busy doing nothing.'"

 3             Is it your understanding, based upon having reviewed this

 4     testimony, that the person who would have normally recorded this footage

 5     was, in fact, this individual named here by Mr. Stojkovic, Kosanovic?

 6        A.   Yes, correct.

 7        Q.   And is it your understanding, based on this statement, that the

 8     person who, in fact, did record the footage was Slobodan Stojkovic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And, in fact, if we go a little bit down the page and we go to

11     the next page in the B/C/S, we should see an exchange between

12     Mr. Stojkovic and the investigating judge, where we can see Mr. Stojkovic

13     says:

14             "I took the video camera."

15             And the judge asked:

16             "What did you record?"

17             And he says:

18             "All sorts of things."

19             And ultimately the judge asks him:

20             "Did you record a murder?"

21             And his answer is:  "Yes."

22             Is that what you based, in part, your testimony concerning the

23     circumstances of the video footage being shot on?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   I'd like to take you to another part of this statement.

Page 8120

 1             If we can just -- actually, we can just focus in on the very last

 2     paragraph on this very page, and I think it's the same page in the B/C/S,

 3     also the paragraph at the bottom that we can see just now.

 4             And in that circumstance, we can see what Mr. Stojkovic says, in

 5     particular, about having to go and record this footage.  In the middle of

 6     the paragraph, he says:

 7             "I put -- I was sleeping in the lorry, when he woke me up, 'Come

 8     on, get up quick to go and make a recording.'  I put on my clothes in a

 9     hurry, did not know what was going on ..."

10             And so forth.  And then he says:

11             "I got there, and Boca merely told me, 'Go and record that.'"

12             Did you rely on that to any extent in determining the

13     circumstances under which that video footage was recorded?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15        Q.   All right.  Now, I want to take you to a different area.  It

16     should be on the following page in the English, and I think it should be

17     on page 20 in the B/C/S.

18             Okay.  All right, I think we're on the right page.  I'm sure

19     Mr. Gajic will let me know if we're not.

20             All right.  Let's try page 21 in the B/C/S.  In the English, it's

21     at the bottom.  It will be page 20 in the B/C/S.  I'm sorry.

22             In the English, we can see at the bottom of the page

23     Mr. Stojkovic talks about the battery of the video camera.  Do you recall

24     being asked about that on cross-examination, Mr. Janc?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8121

 1        Q.   And do you know what the circumstances were with respect to how

 2     and why the battery was changed for the purposes of making the recording?

 3        A.   Yes.  The battery was losing power and getting dead, and that's

 4     why they wanted this one to be replaced with another one.

 5        Q.   And, in fact, you can see that right there in the transcript of

 6     this statement, at the bottom; is that fair to say?

 7        A.   Yes, correct.

 8        Q.   And Mr. Stojkovic indicates that he told somebody to go and fetch

 9     another battery?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  And, in fact, on the videotape you can see the truck

12     heading back; isn't that right?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Okay.  If we go to the next page in the English -- page 16 in

15     English, and I think we remain on the same page in the B/C/S, you can

16     see -- no.

17             No, we need to go to page 14, the ERN ending 84.  Thanks a lot.

18     Sorry about that.

19             And here we can see that -- we can see that Mr. Stojkovic talks

20     about how it is that Medic, Branislav, went back to go get this battery,

21     and that's right there in the third -- well, it's the second statement

22     made by Stojkovic on this page.  Is that right, Mr. Janc?

23        A.   Yes, correct.

24        Q.   All right.  And now I think we can go to the next page in the

25     English, ending 85, page 15, and I think we'll need to go to page 22, at

Page 8122

 1     the bottom, and then over to page 23 in the B/C/S.

 2             And just after the middle of the page, we can see the

 3     investigating judge ask Mr. Stojkovic:

 4             "When Medic returned with this battery, what happened next?"

 5             Do you see that, Mr. Janc?  It's just about where the cursor is,

 6     I think.

 7        A.   Yes, I see -- I see that.

 8        Q.   And then it indicates he -- that is, Mr. Stojkovic indicates that

 9     he changed the battery and then there was a move, and he's asked:

10             "Who ordered the move?"

11             Do you recall being asked on cross-examination about who ordered

12     either these killings or ordered the manner in which they were carried

13     out, by General Tolimir?  Do you remember being asked by General Tolimir

14     that?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   Okay.  And do you recall what your response was with respect to

17     how these killings were ordered or the manner in which they were carried

18     out was ordered?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Okay.  And did you rely on how it is described here in

21     Mr. Stojkovic's statement to any extent, in terms of your understanding

22     and what you related to the Trial Chamber about the circumstances in

23     which these killings were carried out or the manner in which they were

24     ordered?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 8123

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  I'd like to move to just a different

 2     section of this statement.  I'm going to have to go three pages up in the

 3     English, to ERN ending 88.  It should be page 18, and it should be

 4     page 27 in the B/C/S.

 5             I'd like to go into private session for just a moment, if I

 6     could, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  We turn into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8124

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Just for the Court's convenience, this

11     individual's statement is admitted as P1371 under the pseudonym PW-78.

12        Q.   All right.  Mr. Janc, I just have a couple more questions for

13     you.

14             You were asked -- you were asked on cross-examination about how

15     it is that these individuals from Srebrenica got down to Trnovo.  Do you

16     recall that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   All right.  I'd like to direct your attention to this same page.

19     And we can see, in the middle of this page, what Mr. Stojkovic says.  And

20     in your testimony, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, I believe you said

21     that your understanding was that individuals were brought from Srebrenica

22     to Trnovo by bus or truck.

23        A.   Yes, correct.

24        Q.   And is that based upon, in part, what you see here in this

25     statement, where Mr. Stojkovic says, it should be in the middle of the

Page 8125

 1     page:

 2             "I only heard they were brought by truck, well, now, how, what,

 3     and where from."

 4        A.   Yes, although we have only truck here, but from the other

 5     statement we have seen before, there was also bus mentioned.

 6        Q.   I'd like to refer to, it should be page 23 in the English and

 7     page 25 in the B/C/S.

 8             And at the bottom of the page, you can see the investigating

 9     judge asking about these individuals, and he says:

10             "We will make conclusions.  Tell me, since you were present, you

11     are still saying that you were far from the place while the six of them

12     were being interrogated on the way down.  Did those people say where they

13     were from, who they were, anything about that?"

14             And you can see Mr. Stojkovic answers:

15             "I received information that they were from Srebrenica.  Now,

16     whether the information is true or not, I can't ..."

17             Now, did you rely on this information to any extent in reaching

18     the conclusion that the individuals that were killed, that we see on the

19     videotape, were, in fact, from Srebrenica?

20        A.   Yes, also.

21        Q.   And in addition to this statement, what other information did you

22     rely on in concluding that these individuals that we can see being killed

23     in the videotape were, in fact, from Srebrenica?

24        A.   There is additional statement talking about this same issue, and

25     the most important for me was that they were on a missing list, on the

Page 8126

 1     ICRC missing list for Srebrenica-related victims.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  That concludes my use of this

 3     statement, Mr. President.  I'd like to tender it.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1397, Your Honours.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And I did just want to go over one other thing

 7     in -- just a moment.  I'll give you the exhibit number.  P1372, if I

 8     could have that in e-court, please.

 9        Q.   We have here again, Mr. Janc, the statement of Goran Stoparic

10     that I referred to back on the 17th of November, when you testified last.

11     There were some questions that were put to you during the course of your

12     cross-examination regarding whether or not the reference to Serbian DB

13     was a general reference referring to something of a Serb nature, rather

14     than something pertaining to the Republic of Serbia.  Do you recall -- do

15     you recall that cross-examination?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   And was it your understanding that the Serbian DB that is

18     referred to repeatedly in information concerning the Skorpions Unit

19     refers to the Republic of Serbia or an attachment or affiliation with the

20     Republic of Serbia?

21        A.   Yes, correct.  And maybe in this statement, it's not clear

22     enough, but if you -- if you read in other statements which were given by

23     different individuals in relation to the same issue, it's quite clear

24     that they were referring to the Republic of Serbia.

25        Q.   All right.  What I'd like to do is I'd like to show you -- and

Page 8127

 1     hopefully I'll get the page somewhere in the ballpark, but I think it

 2     should be page 13 in the English.  It's paragraph 73, so hopefully we can

 3     find it relatively quickly in the B/C/S as well.  It's the following

 4     page, I'm sorry.

 5             Great, thank you very much.

 6             In paragraph 73, we see what Mr. Stoparic says, and he says:

 7             "While I was with the Skorpions at Djeletovci, we were regularly

 8     visited by operatives of the Serbian DB, and they brought us whatever

 9     equipment we needed.  They also brought our salaries in envelopes."

10             Then he says:

11             "There was no RSK DB, only the Serbian DB with associates based

12     in Krajina.  They had Serbian DB ID cards, and every two or three days

13     people from the DB in Sid would come to see us, and from Belgrade DB

14     operatives would come as well."

15             Do you see that?

16        A.   Yes, I see that.

17        Q.   Does this shed any light on the issue?

18        A.   Yes, it's correctly also from here, because they're referring to

19     DB from Sid and Belgrade.  These are both towns in Republic of Serbia.

20        Q.   Let me refer you now to paragraph 81, which is on the following

21     page in the English, and page 21 in the B/C/S.

22             In this paragraph, we see he states:

23             "We were directly ordered into action by Mrgud, the defence

24     minister of the RSK.  The VRSK would approach the unit for assistance

25     through Mrgud or through Boca," who we know is Slobodan Medic, "directly

Page 8128

 1     if the VRSK commander personally knew him.  For local actions, Boca had

 2     authority to deploy us, but for actions further away, Boca always had to

 3     go through Belgrade."

 4             Does this shed any light on that issue?

 5        A.   Yes, it's just confirmation what I already said, that they were

 6     referring to the Republic of Serbia.

 7        Q.   Now, if we can go to the previous page in the B/C/S.  I think

 8     that will be page 20.  We'll stay on this same page in English, and we'll

 9     go to paragraph 78.

10             In this paragraph, Mr. Stoparic talks about this issue some more,

11     and he says:

12             "We built a whole headquarters complex at Djeletovci," this is

13     the headquarters of the Skorpions Unit, "including accommodation,

14     kitchens, gyms, et cetera.  Our expenses were paid by the DB and by the

15     Krajina Oil Company, which provided most of our funds.  I was issued an

16     identification booklet by the Skorpions with my photo and rank.  It

17     indicated that I was a member of MUP Serbia State Security (DB ).  My

18     identification booklet did not say 'RSK,' it said 'Republic of Serbia.'"

19             Did you rely on this statement in reaching the conclusions you

20     did, in part, concerning the Skorpions Unit and its relationship to the

21     Republic of Serbia?

22        A.   Yes, correct.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. Janc.

24             That concludes my redirect examination, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 8129

 1             Mr. Janc, I have only one question for you.

 2                           Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have heard and seen, in one of the statements

 4     we have looked at, the name of Branislav Medic.  Earlier, you were asked

 5     about the leader of the Skorpions Unit, and you told us it is

 6     Slobodan Medic.  Is this the same person or are these different persons?

 7        A.   No, Your Honour, these are two different persons.  And I think

 8     they are related between each other, but both are definitely different

 9     persons.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

11             Mr. Janc, you will be pleased that this concludes your

12     examination, your testimony here in the courtroom in this trial, at least

13     in relation to this topic you were testifying about, the so-called

14     Skorpion video.  Thank you very much that you helped us, and now you are

15     free to return to your normal work for the OTP.  Thank you very much.

16             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             I see that it's only 9.45.  As I mentioned the other day, we do

21     not have a witness to follow Mr. Janc, for the reasons that I mentioned:

22     The witness that was scheduled to come had some really unforeseeable

23     difficulties securing his passport, so that he was unable to travel to

24     The Hague to give his testimony this week.  He is scheduled now, I

25     believe, to come next week, and will be available to come.

Page 8130

 1             In addition, we've advanced some of the witnesses we had planned

 2     to call next week to come earlier in the week as well, so that we have --

 3     we'll start off with PW-71.  I believe he's in the middle of his

 4     cross-examination.  I have some redirect for him as well.  And then we

 5     have several other witnesses coming for next week.  So I don't anticipate

 6     that we'll have a problem for next week, as things stand now, but,

 7     unfortunately, today we can't proceed any further.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 9             This is, on one hand, unfortunate; on the other hand, not

10     avoidable.  It may happen sometimes.  We are in the hands of many

11     circumstances.

12             I would like to mention another issue, but we should go into

13     private session for that.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8131











11 Pages 8131-8136 redacted. Private session.















Page 8137

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12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

24             The Prosecution has informed the Chamber that there is no other

25     witness available today.  In this respect, we have to adjourn for the day

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 1     and for the week, and we will resume on Monday, in the afternoon at 2.15,

 2     in this courtroom.

 3             We adjourn.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.07 a.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of

 6                           November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.