Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8225

 1                           Tuesday, 30 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             Mr. McCloskey, I saw you on your feet.  Do you want to raise

 7     anything or is the next witness ready?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your

 9     Honours.

10             The next witness is ready.  This is the first time we've had a

11     witness in this situation where he has been subpoenaed to be here.  He is

12     co-operative, he's here.  I had a chance to speak to him about an hour

13     ago very briefly, and there's very few exhibits I'll probably show him

14     from that big list.  There's one picture of the Borike Vila, which you'll

15     recall from the site visit that he identified, that I've given a copy to

16     Mr. Gajic, that I suggest we put on the ELMO for him to identify, but --

17     and it doesn't have any numbers, but I don't think it's anything that's

18     contested.  And Ms. Stewart may have it in the system by the time we get

19     to that.  Otherwise, we're ready to go.  He is here.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, the Prosecution has sent an e-mail

21     yesterday with two additional documents which are not yet on the 65 ter

22     exhibit list.  Are you moving for admission of these and adding them to

23     the 65 ter exhibit list?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.  Based on our brief

25     discussions with him today, it doesn't appear that that is something that

Page 8226

 1     is worthwhile, and I just sent that last night out of an abundance of

 2     caution in case it was something that he could speak to, and it doesn't

 3     appear that it is, so we don't need to cross that bridge.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 5             The witness should be brought in, please.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, would you please stand for a moment.  Please

 8     rise.

 9             First of all, welcome to the Tribunal.  Good afternoon.

10             Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is

11     shown to you now.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your words of

13     welcome.

14             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

15     and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  DJOKO RAZDOLJAC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

19             And now please sit down and make yourself comfortable.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now at the beginning of your testimony, the

22     Prosecution is in the position to put questions to you.

23             Mr. McCloskey, go ahead, please.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

Page 8227

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   Could you first just tell us your full name, and spell your last

 4     name so we get it correctly on the record.

 5        A.   My name is Djoko Razdoljac, R-a-z-d-o-l-j-a-c.

 6        Q.   And where were you born?

 7        A.   I was born on the 13th of May, 1960, in Rogatica.

 8        Q.   And what is your current line of work?

 9        A.   I'm a trained economist employed in the agricultural complex

10     AD Rogatica as a manager.

11        Q.   Can you give us just a brief biographical background.  Where did

12     you go to elementary/secondary school?

13        A.   I went to elementary school in Borike, I finished secondary

14     school in Visegrad, and I got my university degree in Belgrade and Banja

15     Luka.

16        Q.   And when did you get your last university degree?

17        A.   My last university degree was three years ago.

18        Q.   And what was that in?

19        A.   Well, in 1985, I graduated from the Higher School of Economics in

20     Belgrade.  Today, it's called the Higher School of Management.  And I got

21     my university degree in Economics in Banja Luka.

22        Q.   All right.  Did you do regular JNA service at any point?

23        A.   Yes, in 1983, 1984, in Svilajnac, Serbia.  It was then still

24     Yugoslavia.

25        Q.   And what job did you have during that service?

Page 8228

 1        A.   I served my compulsory service in the Quarter-Master Service.

 2     There were cooks, bakers, butchers in my section.  That's where I

 3     completed my training.  And after the training, I served the rest of my

 4     compulsory service in hotels, in military hotels, on the Mountain of Tara

 5     as a soldier/waiter.

 6        Q.   All right.  And at some point, did you become a member of the

 7     Army of Republika Srpska?

 8        A.   When the war started, of course I was in the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   And can you just give us a brief summary when you first became a

11     member of the VRS, and your first positions as we work our way to 1995.

12     It doesn't need to be detailed.  Just roughly.

13        A.   Towards the end of 1992, I started serving in the Command of

14     Rogatica Brigade, until the end of 1995, and I was assistant commander

15     for logistics all that time.

16        Q.   All right.  Well, then, let me go to 1995.

17             Can you describe, in 1995, who -- as an assistant commander for

18     logistics, who was your commander?

19        A.   My immediate superior was the commander of Rogatica Brigade,

20     Rajko Kusic.

21        Q.   And what rank was he in 1995, if you recall?

22        A.   I think major or perhaps lieutenant-colonel.

23        Q.   And what rank were you in July of 1995?

24        A.   Second lieutenant.

25        Q.   And can you tell us what other assistant commanders were part of

Page 8229

 1     the Rogatica Brigade in July 1995, just so we can get a brief picture, a

 2     short picture of that command?

 3        A.   We had Chief of Staff Milovan --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters ask the witness kindly to start

 5     over and say the name more slowly.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Excuse me, sir.  They -- I think you're speaking rather softly,

 8     which is fine - the mikes are pretty good - but the interpreters didn't

 9     hear you.  So could you tell us who the chief of staff -- who the chief

10     of staff was again?

11        A.   Lelek, Milovan.

12        Q.   And his rank?

13        A.   Captain.

14        Q.   All right.  The other assistants?

15        A.   Assistant for security, Zoran Carkic.  I think he was captain

16     even then.  Jadranko Vukovic, captain, was assistant for operations.

17     Captain Miljan Djeric, captain first class.  And myself, assistant for

18     logistics.

19        Q.   Can you describe for us what the -- what your job entailed,

20     especially in 1995.  What was the assistant commander for logistics'

21     duties?

22        A.   Assistant commander for logistics is normally in charge of

23     logistics.  That involved providing food, equipment, munitions,

24     fulfilling the requests of my superior command to the best of my ability.

25        Q.   Can you give us an example of a significant part of your job?

Page 8230

 1     I'm sure it involved, you know, supplying military supplies as well;

 2     weapons, ammunition, things like that.  Didn't it?

 3        A.   Well, as instructed by the brigade, I filled out certain requests

 4     and submitted them to the Logistics Base of the 27th Brigade, or the

 5     logistical unit of the corps, or the staff, to a lesser extent.

 6        Q.   All right.  You've mentioned briefly these logistic bases.  Can

 7     you explain to us how that worked?  You said there was a corps logistics

 8     base.  Would that have been the Drina Corps?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you've also mentioned the 27th Logistics Base.  What unit did

11     that belong to?

12        A.   The 27th Logistics Base, I believe, belonged to both the Drina

13     and the Sarajevo Corps and supplied them both.

14        Q.   Was it at all associated with the Main Staff?

15        A.   The 27th Logistics Base was subordinate to both the corps and the

16     Main Staff.

17        Q.   All right.  And you had a chance to speak briefly today with

18     Investigator Tomasz Blaszczyk, did you not?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   All right.  And I got to speak with you briefly as well today?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  I just want to go over a couple of the things that I

23     believe Mr. Blaszczyk may have gone over with you, and some of it should

24     come up on the screen.

25             The first one I would like to come up on the screen is P469.

Page 8231

 1             And to help simplify it, let me show you the original, which

 2     I think you may have had a chance to see.  It's just a cardboard cover

 3     that the Court has seen before.  It says "Telegram" on the front, "28/,"

 4     it looks like, "34," perhaps "39," and then in Cyrillic, it says

 5     "Atlantida."  And this was a cover page of various documents.

 6             Do you recall Mr. Blaszczyk showing you this cover page that said

 7     "Atlantida" on it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And did you ever see this before?  Do you ever recall seeing it

10     before Mr. Blaszczyk showed it to you?

11        A.   No, I did not see this before nor was this present in my

12     logistical base.

13        Q.   Does this term "Atlantida" have any significance for you?  And

14     I'm specifically referring back to the wartime period.

15        A.   No.  I saw that for the first time and came across this word for

16     the first time when I met Mr. Tomasz Blaszczyk.

17        Q.   All right.  Well, let me just go over a couple of the documents

18     that were found underneath this cardboard cover and just ask you a couple

19     of questions about them.  And they'll come up on the screen.

20             The first one I'd like would be P471.  Perhaps we can blow up the

21     B/C/S a bit.  That's a bit hard to read.

22             Thank you, that's very good.  Perhaps the same with the English.

23             Now, I just want you to take a look at this.  We see, in the left

24     top corner, it says "27th POB Command."  What does that mean?

25        A.   That's the 27th Logistics Base.

Page 8232

 1        Q.   And that's what you spoke of earlier; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And then we see handwritten up in the right corner the numbers,

 4     it looks like, "330," and then the letters "Ziza."  Does "Ziza" mean

 5     anything to you?

 6        A.   It's the man who operated the teletype communications.  His last

 7     name was Zizovic, and "Ziza" was short for it.  He received and sent

 8     telegrams.

 9        Q.   All right.  And this is -- as we see that it's dated 30 July

10     1995, and it's entitled "Report on War Booty," and it's to the 1st

11     Podrinje "lpbr."  Can you tell us what that is?

12        A.   Light Podrinje Brigade.

13        Q.   And what was that normally referred to, you know, among the

14     members of that brigade, the name of the brigade?

15        A.   Rogatica Brigade.

16        Q.   Okay.  And then as we go down, we see that it says:

17             "Sjeversko Village IKM to PKPO personally."

18             "IKM" is "Forward Command Post"; is that correct?

19        A.   Right.

20        Q.   And what is "PKPO"?

21        A.   To send the cable to the assistant commander for logistics.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And just to note, Your Honours, the

23     translation says "assistant logistics commander."  That's a bad

24     translation.  It should be as it was translated "assistant commander for

25     logistics."

Page 8233

 1        Q.   Now, this IKM in the Sjeversko village, do you recall that IKM?

 2        A.   I do.

 3        Q.   And in what part of the village was it in?

 4        A.   In the schoolhouse in the village of Sjeversko, which is in the

 5     central part of the village.

 6        Q.   All right.  And we see here that the body of this document says:

 7             "Please send us, according to our agreement of this evening, the

 8     data on the collected war booty so that we can carry out our obligation

 9     towards the VRS Main Staff."

10             And then it is the assistant commander for logistics,

11     Lieutenant-Colonel Strahinja Jankovic.  Can you tell us who this

12     Lieutenant-Colonel Jankovic is from the 27th Logistics Base Command?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Who is that?  Do you know him?

15        A.   Well, I had to know him.

16        Q.   All right.  And this is -- as we've noted, it's to the assistant

17     commander of the Rogatica Brigade personally.  And who would have that

18     been on 30 July 1995, the date this was sent?

19        A.   Could you repeat that question?

20        Q.   Yes.  Just going back up to who this was sent to, it says it was

21     sent personally to the assistant commander for logistics to the

22     1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.  So who was that in July 1995?

23        A.   That was me.

24        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us here what the lieutenant-colonel is

25     referring to when he says:

Page 8234

 1             "Please send us, according to our agreement of this evening, the

 2     data on collected war booty so that we can carry out our obligation

 3     towards the VRS Main Staff"?

 4             Do you remember the agreement -- an agreement you had with the

 5     lieutenant-colonel about war booty?

 6        A.   There was an order to the effect that all war booty, meaning the

 7     cattle in the area of Zepa, should be pulled out or, rather, sent to the

 8     Rogatica Brigade, to the Borik Plateau, and from there, pursuant to other

 9     orders, they were to be taken in a vehicle of the 27th Logistics Base,

10     and on orders from Mr. Strahinja, to the 27th Logistics Base, where it

11     was then distributed on.  Where to, I don't know.

12        Q.   And what is this obligation toward the Main Staff that he's

13     referring to?

14        A.   Well, I don't know if they, too, distributed the cattle once it

15     reached the 27th Logistics Base, so I don't really know whether the booty

16     and the cattle -- the meat, actually, was then sent to the Main Staff.

17        Q.   Was there some kind of an agricultural farm in Sjemec, not far

18     from Rogatica?

19        A.   There was a military -- well, actually, a farm, an agricultural

20     farm there, except that in the Sjemec -- on the Sjemec Plateau, that farm

21     belonged to the company that I work for today.  And in the summertime, it

22     was used for pasture for sheep and horses, because there is a very

23     well-known horse stable at Borik.

24        Q.   And was there any agricultural products being grown at that farm

25     around Sjemec or the plain that you've referred to?

Page 8235

 1        A.   No.  Before the war, it was only pastures there.  Now, after the

 2     war, they tried to start something else.  They tried to sow -- to grow

 3     some wheat there, but that didn't work out.

 4        Q.   Really thinking about the summer, July/August, of 1995, do you

 5     know what kind of animals were -- if any, were stored at that farm at

 6     Sjemec?

 7        A.   At that time, there was nothing at Sjemec.  The horse stable and

 8     the sheep that were there, they remained on the Borik Plateau throughout

 9     the war.  Now, only later, in 1995, when the war booty was pulled out

10     from Zepa, the cows and calves were still kept at Borik Plateau, whereas

11     the oxen, and I think there was some 100 or so of them, were at the

12     Sjemec Plateau.  And as I've already said, part of the booty was also

13     sent to or towards the logistics base.

14        Q.   Okay.  And so but that's the period after the fall of Zepa that

15     you're talking about, correct, that the cattle and the other material got

16     moved to Sjemec?

17        A.   Well, yes.  After the fall of Zepa, the cattle was driven from

18     Zepa to Borike and Sjemec.

19        Q.   Okay.  Right in that period right before or as Zepa was

20     attacked - July 14th, I think, is the date that we've seen - were there

21     any animals at the Sjemec farm in those big barns, big -- we've seen

22     these big stone-foundation barns that were there on that plateau that

23     you've described.  At that period of time, were there any animals there?

24        A.   Well, only the animals belonging to the locals from the Sjemec.

25     Those people who had cattle, they used the pasture there, and their

Page 8236

 1     cattle was in the barns that were -- or stables that were left behind,

 2     empty.

 3        Q.   Can you give us just a very rough idea of how many head of cattle

 4     would have been there at that period of time in early July that the

 5     locals held?

 6        A.   I really cannot do that.  I don't know.  I know that they had

 7     cattle, they had sheep, horses.  But how many head of cattle, I really

 8     don't know.

 9        Q.   Did they have pigs?

10        A.   No.  Pigs were not used for pasture -- grazing.  They don't

11     graze.

12        Q.   Were any -- did you send any supplies -- any food, medicines, or

13     anything like that to the Sjemec area for anyone, any humans, in July

14     1995?

15        A.   To Sjemec?  No.

16        Q.   Roughly, how many people were living in that plateau?  Just very

17     roughly - I don't need exact numbers - in July 1995.

18        A.   Well, you see, at Sjemec, there was a plant of the forestry farm.

19     I think there was some 10 to 15 houses there, or, rather, households of

20     the local people.  Now, how many people exactly, I really don't know.

21        Q.   Were you ever asked by anyone, your commander or anyone, whether

22     or not Muslim prisoners could be accommodated anywhere in the Rogatica

23     area before the fall of Zepa?

24        A.   No, not to me.

25        Q.   And, specifically, did anyone ask you anything about sending 800

Page 8237

 1     Muslims to the farm in Sjemec?

 2        A.   No.  No, there was no mention made in any version of Sjemec to

 3     accommodate those people nor did anyone talk about it.

 4        Q.   Was there agricultural work in the area of Sjemec for 800 people

 5     in early July 1995?

 6        A.   Well, no, no work needed to be done at Sjemec.  As I've already

 7     said, there was just some cattle there, grazing on the pastures, but

 8     there was no farm work to be done.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to another -- a document.  This

10     is P472.  And that should come up, and we'll blow that up for you as

11     well, because this is handwritten.

12        Q.   Now, we can see, from the -- from this document, that up in the

13     right-hand corner it's dated 30 July 1995 at 1640 hours.  Can you make

14     out that handwriting?  Do you recognise that handwriting at all, any of

15     it?

16        A.   I can only recognise my own signature.

17        Q.   And could you -- there's a way to mark on this -- on this

18     machine, and I think the Usher will help you.  If you could -- he'll show

19     you where this marker pen is, and you can actually draw right on the

20     screen and it will leave a mark.  So could you circle where you see your

21     signature?

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Okay, you've circled that in red.  Do you see your name spelled

24     out anywhere else?

25        A.   Well, at the very beginning, in the heading, I can see, in the

Page 8238

 1     upper left corner, my first and last name, although that's not in my

 2     handwriting.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Could you underline that so we know what you're talking

 4     about.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Well, you've circled it.  So could you put a "2" next to that

 7     circle so we'll be able to distinguish the two circles.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So that "2" is next to your name spelled out by

10     someone else; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And can you make out the name over on the right-hand side?  It's

13     under "1640 hours," or the word, whatever that is?  I know it's

14     difficult, but perhaps --

15        A.   No, I don't know.

16        Q.   And is this one of the documents Mr. Blaszczyk showed you today,

17     earlier?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And did he show you an original document?

20        A.   No, I saw this document.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let me see if I can get you the

22     original.

23             If I could hand you a document containing the --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the Court Usher, it should

25     be given to the witness.

Page 8239

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Now, this looks to me like it's ink.  Is that a copy of what we

 3     see on the screen or is it the same as what we see on the screen, as far

 4     as you can tell?

 5        A.   Well, as far as I can tell, it should be.

 6        Q.   And looking at that, what I'll refer to as the original, is that

 7     your signature at the bottom, just like it is on the copy on the screen?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you sign that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you remember this document at all?

12        A.   Well, it's been a long time.  I can't really recall this

13     document, but the signature is mine.

14        Q.   So is this a genuine document?

15        A.   Well, I don't know.  I don't know what you mean.  Do you mean has

16     someone falsified this document that I'm holding?

17        Q.   Does it look falsified to you in any way?

18        A.   Well, I think that the person who sent this was probably in the

19     field somewhere and that it was actually sent by courier to me, which is

20     why it was handwritten.

21        Q.   Any doubt that that's your signature at the bottom?

22        A.   No, no, this is my signature.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I think we're done, though -- and these

24     are all in evidence already, I believe, but let me check.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Not with the markings.

Page 8240

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  But not with the markings, absolutely.  So I best

 2     offer this document with the markings.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The marked document will be received.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The marked version of document

 5     P00472 shall be given Exhibit P01432.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Now, did Mr. Blaszczyk show you some video-clips of the wartime

 8     period around -- I think it was around the Borike/Boksanica area today?

 9        A.   Yes, Borik and Boksanica.

10        Q.   And were you able to see yourself in some of those clips, and

11     some other folks?

12        A.   Yes, at Boksanica.

13        Q.   And just to try to make it as clear as possible:  In looking

14     at -- there's a short note of the information you gave Mr. Blaszczyk.

15     Did he read that note over to you, and did you make sure it was correct?

16        A.   Yes, he read it out to me, and I just confirmed that that's what

17     I had said, as it was written down.

18        Q.   Okay, thanks.  Let me just read briefly a couple of sections to

19     make sure we've got this right.

20             It says, in paragraph 3, that:

21             "Mr. Razdoljac was shown a portion of the videos 8119 and 1355."

22             And on 1355, you identified yourself, Hamdija Torlak,

23     Benjamin Kulovac, General Mladic, General Tolimir, Colonel Dudnjik of the

24     Ukrainian Battalion, at a meeting at Boksanica on 19th of July?

25             So is that correct?  You saw the video of that meeting on 19th,

Page 8241

 1     and you were able to identify those people?

 2        A.   Yes, within the UNPROFOR compound.

 3        Q.   And that was -- where was that?

 4        A.   That was at Boksanica, at the UNPROFOR compound.

 5        Q.   All right.  And then it says on Video 8119 you were able to

 6     identify yourself greeting General Mladic when he had arrived to

 7     Boksanica by helicopter on 26th July 1995; that you also identified

 8     Jadranko Vukovic from the Rogatica Brigade, Mladic's bodyguards, and

 9     Strahinja Jankovic from the 27th Logistic Base, and General Zdravko

10     Tolimir and General Milan Gvero.  Is that correct, you were able to do

11     that from that video-clip?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   How did you know it was 26th July?

14        A.   Well, I didn't really know nor did I say at any point that it was

15     on the 26th of July.  I know that the Zepa operation was toward the end

16     of July 1995, but what date exactly it was, I really don't know, because

17     there were events every day.  And even if I did know the date at the

18     time, I wouldn't have been able to remember them all.

19        Q.   So that 26th July date would have been something supplied to you

20     by Mr. Blaszczyk?

21        A.   Yes, he said it was a video-clip of the 26th.  Now, I never said

22     that it was either the 25th, or the 26th, or the 10th, for that matter.

23     I only said who I could identify on the video-clip.  That's it.

24        Q.   And is that the same for the video-clip from the 19th, that he

25     told you this was a video-clip from the 19th and you were able to

Page 8242

 1     identify those people?

 2        A.   Well, I stand by what I've already said.  I identified the

 3     people, but as for the date, I could not really confirm that because all

 4     of this was happening during Operation Zepa.

 5        Q.   All right.  During that Operation Zepa in July 1995, where was

 6     General Tolimir staying?

 7        A.   I had occasion to see General Tolimir at Boksanica, and I also

 8     saw him at Borike.

 9        Q.   And where did you see him at Borike?

10        A.   Well, in Borike, there was a building next to the hotel that was

11     some sort of forward command post, and sometimes people would stay

12     overnight there during Operation Zepa.

13        Q.   And what was this commonly referred to, this building?

14        A.   It was referred to as the Vila.

15        Q.   And where was it in relation to the hotel building in Borike?

16        A.   It was east of the hotel, some 100 metres away, maybe 150.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Could we put 65 ter 7001 on the screen.

18     It may take a while to show up.

19        Q.   But do you remember, did Mr. Blaszczyk show you a photograph of a

20     building today?

21        A.   Yes, he did.  He showed me the photograph of that Vila.

22        Q.   And were you able to identify the photograph yourself?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And now we have a photograph, with snow, of a building.  What is

25     this building on this photograph, 65 ter 7001?

Page 8243

 1        A.   This is the building that we referred to as Vila in Borike.

 2        Q.   And how was it that you saw General Tolimir there at some point

 3     during the Zepa operation?  What was it for?

 4        A.   Well, the centre was in Boksanica.  There were a lot of people

 5     there, it was crowded.  There were media representatives.  There were

 6     also people from the superior commands.  And one evening, I believe they

 7     were to spend the night there, but there were only four bedrooms in that

 8     Vila, and I vividly recall that it was very crowded, there were lots of

 9     people there, and they were looking for extra rooms.  And on that night,

10     General Mladic was there, too, and that's when General Tolimir was there,

11     that I saw him.

12        Q.   Who got the four bedrooms that night?

13        A.   Well, I don't know.  I know that I didn't get one.  I had to go

14     back, because my superiors were there from the Main Staff, and there were

15     also reporters from various media outlets.  And I remember there was a

16     woman, and Mladic intervened for her to be provided with accommodations,

17     and I remember that Mladic criticised me because I wasn't very

18     forthcoming.

19        Q.   What do you mean?  Forthcoming about what?

20        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

21        Q.   You said General Mladic criticised you because you weren't

22     forthcoming.  Can you explain what you meant by that?  What were you not

23     forthcoming about?

24        A.   Well, he asked me to provide the rooms for all of them, and I

25     just told him, Well, General, there are only four bedrooms here, I really

Page 8244

 1     cannot do anything about it.  And that is when he said, Well, all right.

 2     Then if I, General Mladic, have to sleep under a tree, I'll do so, but I

 3     want you to make sure that this lady gets or be provided proper

 4     accommodation.

 5        Q.   Who was this woman?

 6        A.   It wasn't only one woman; there were several.  I don't know who

 7     exactly he meant.  There were several people from the media.  I only know

 8     that later BBC and Sky News reported about it.  Whether there were any

 9     reporters from Serbia or elsewhere, I'm not sure.

10        Q.   Who was staying in the hotel rooms in the nearby hotel, which we

11     know has several rooms, at that evening that you were there during the

12     Zepa operation?

13        A.   Well, at the time the hotel was not really properly outfitted,

14     and I think that only the assistant commander for logistics of the

15     battalion that was there was able to sleep there, and perhaps a driver

16     who had to spend the night there.

17        Q.   You mentioned to Mr. Blaszczyk that, and I quote:

18             "He recalls that General Zdravko Tolimir used this Vila during

19     the Zepa operation in July 1995."

20             Is that correct?

21        A.   Well, I said that all those who -- all of us who were in

22     Boksanica went to the Vila when necessary, whether to attend a meeting or

23     to spend the night there, and that was a reference to all of us whom I

24     saw or who could be seen there in Boksanica.

25        Q.   You clearly had to look after the logistics of these generals.

Page 8245

 1     So did General Tolimir spend the night at this Vila any time during the

 2     Zepa operation?

 3        A.   Possibly.  He could have spent a few nights there.  I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   Where else could he have or did he spend the night during the

 5     Zepa operation, which we know went on -- well, we know from the 13th of

 6     July near to the end of July.  Where else would or did General Tolimir

 7     spend the night when he was in the area of Boksanica/Borike/Rogatica?

 8        A.   I don't know if he could have slept at the Rogatica Command or

 9     perhaps a few nights in the trenches at Boksanica.  I don't know whether

10     he went to the Main Staff.  I really don't know.

11        Q.   How long a drive was it, during that wartime period from, say,

12     the Vila to Crna Rijeka, the Main Staff headquarters?

13        A.   That all depends on which route you take.  If you go through

14     Borike, Rogatica, Sokolac, Han Pijesak, it takes 90 minutes to 2 hours.

15     And if you took a shortcut, Budeta-Mrkalji-Han Pijesak, then he would

16     have there within an hour.

17        Q.   So this shortcut in July, during the operation, was there

18     anything to prevent him from taking the shortcut if he had, you know, a

19     decent vehicle and ...

20        A.   I don't know what there could have been to prevent him.  It was

21     very deep behind our lines.

22        Q.   And can you describe -- going back to the Vila, what kind of

23     communications, if any, did that Vila have with the outside?

24        A.   Yes, there was a radio communications room next to the Vila.

25        Q.   Where was the radio communications room?

Page 8246

 1        A.   I think it was the largest room downstairs, or perhaps a lounge.

 2        Q.   In what building?

 3        A.   Which building?  It's only one building.

 4        Q.   Well, we're talking about the radio communication is in the Vila,

 5     the hotel, the Sjeversko School, some out-building?  Which building?  I'm

 6     sorry, we may have gotten a bit confused.

 7        A.   I said a moment ago that the hotel was used only by the logistics

 8     man in the battalion.  He had communications, and there was a

 9     communications line to Sjeversko, the battalion command, and there was a

10     communications unit in the Vila.  That was in the conference room.

11     Perhaps that should be the best name for it.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's start with the Vila.  What kind of communications

13     did the Vila have to the hotel communication that you just described?

14        A.   The same communications, radio communications.  The hotel was

15     linked up.

16        Q.   Was there a hard line from the Vila to the hotel?

17        A.   The cable, the wire cable for radio.

18        Q.   That's correct.  Can you describe that to us?

19        A.   How shall I describe it?  The grey military cable stretched to

20     connect these features, attached to trees, from one fir tree to another.

21     You can see it was in a forest, and from the hotel a cable was laid

22     through the forest.

23        Q.   So was the cable laid through the forest from the hotel

24     communications room to the Vila?

25        A.   I think one line came straight to the hotel, and another went

Page 8247

 1     under the hotel to the Vila.

 2        Q.   And so the Vila, itself, did it have just one of those induction

 3     telephone things or did it have actual radio equipment with a receiver

 4     and a transmitter?

 5        A.   The switchboard for that radio station was at Borike, in the old

 6     building of the local office.  And from there, a line went to Sjeversko,

 7     connecting both the hotel and the Vila.

 8        Q.   Okay.  So the Vila, the hotel, the Sjeversko School, were all

 9     connected with a central communications centre in an old building?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  And where -- can you describe this old building to us so

12     we can get a picture of what it was?

13        A.   It was the local office of the registry before the war.  That was

14     levelled before the war, and a new building was built where nowadays the

15     president of the Local Commune and the registrar are located.

16        Q.   And can you tell us -- you must have some basic knowledge of the

17     radio, since you had to provide supplies.  What kind of radio receiver

18     and transmitter was it?  We've heard about RUP 12s, RRU 2s, lots of

19     others that I can't -- well, a couple of others that I can't remember

20     now.  Can you tell us what was there at that -- at that building?

21        A.   I honestly don't know.  Whatever I say, I may be wrong.  I

22     honestly never went inside that building, not once.  That's where these

23     young men who operated the communications worked.

24        Q.   Well, did you use those -- take advantage of those communications

25     yourself, like get on the phone at the hotel or at the Vila?

Page 8248

 1        A.   No, no.  My office was in Rogatica, and as long as the Zepa

 2     operation lasted, I was in Boksanica, sometimes sleeping in the trenches,

 3     or I commuted to Rogatica.

 4        Q.   Do you remember a hard line being pulled out on the 13th -- or

 5     taken out on the 13th to the Boksanica check-point?

 6        A.   I don't know what date it was, but in the trench-line in

 7     Boksanica there was a line, if not in all trenches.  I think all the

 8     trenches were connected by a cable.

 9        Q.   The area around the Ukrainian Check-Point 2, I think you referred

10     to it as, do you remember that, Check-Point 2 at Boksanica, where the

11     Ukrainian Battalion was?

12        A.   I don't know which check-point it was or which number it was, but

13     I knew it, and all of us called it the UNPROFOR at Boksanica.

14        Q.   And was there a hard line run from that area to Borike as the

15     operation for Zepa came underway?

16        A.   I don't know exactly.  I know we had some communications at

17     Boksanica, but I don't know whether it was that hard line or something

18     else.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let me -- I think we'll play a bit of

20     the video.  I'm not sure we need to play it all, but let me just -- we

21     have a little bit more time left, so let's start with what we have --

22     what has been identified to you as 19 July, Mladic arriving by

23     helicopter.  And that is 65 -- sorry, P00740.  Okay, and we'll -- well,

24     we'll start it at -- the counter is "00:02:50.1."  And I may ask you a

25     few questions about this.

Page 8249

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   Just to start with, do you recognise this meadow and this tree

 4     area?

 5        A.   It's Boksanica, the broader view at Boksanica.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's continue.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  We're at 00:03:07.5.

 9        Q.   I think we all will agree that's General Mladic on the left.  How

10     about the person in the middle; who's that?

11        A.   That's me.

12        Q.   And how about the person on the far right?

13        A.   That's assistant commander for moral issues, Captain

14     Jadranko Vukovic.

15        Q.   And why were you there to greet General Mladic that day?

16        A.   I was not with General Mladic that day.  My orders were to go

17     there and to do this and that, and when Mladic landed at Boksanica, he

18     asked after the commander, he was told the commander was not there, and

19     he told me, You, bloke, will go to the meeting with me, and you will be

20     representing the Rogatica Brigade.

21        Q.   I understand, sir, but can you give us a little more detail?  We

22     know that -- and I know you didn't mean this, but your orders certainly

23     weren't to "do this and that."  Do you recall, specifically, what your

24     orders were, or even just generally what your orders were?

25        A.   On that day or in general?

Page 8250

 1        Q.   On that day, prior to you meeting General Mladic briefly here in

 2     this field.

 3        A.   On that day, I did not have any particular orders from

 4     General Mladic, except to be present, which you will probably see later,

 5     at that meeting, at the negotiations.

 6             And one more thing, I'm sorry.  Captain Vukovic was supposed to

 7     go, but he was not clean-shaven, and General Mladic gave him three

 8     minutes to get ready.  That's why he did not attend the meeting.

 9        Q.   Yes.  Can you tell us what orders you had received from your

10     command that morning for this day?  Surely, you received orders from your

11     command the day that Mladic is coming.

12        A.   Well, my only order was to be at Boksanica during those days and

13     to carry out preparations - I don't know if you have that

14     footage - preparations for the evacuation of people from Zepa and those

15     buses and lorries that arrived.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's just continue to play.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We're at 00:03:28.7.

19        Q.   So the fellow with the blue helmet, who's that?

20        A.   I believe that's Dudnjik of UNPROFOR, commander.  If he takes off

21     the helmet, I'll be sure.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's continue to play.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   Just one question here.  We're at 00:03:47.1.  Do you recognise

Page 8251

 1     this little room where General Mladic is sitting and this guy with, it

 2     looks like, a blue beret?

 3        A.   I have never been in this room.  And this man looks like

 4     Rajko Kusic.  I'm not sure it's him.

 5        Q.   Sorry.  Which one looks like Rajko Kusic?

 6        A.   This man sitting next to General Mladic.

 7        Q.   How about the man standing; do you recognise him?

 8        A.   That's Dudnjik.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

10             Okay, let's go to another section.  We still believe that this is

11     the 19th, and we begin at 00:28:30.0.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  We've stopped at 00:29:32.5, and we've

14     panned to the end of the table.

15        Q.   Can you tell us, if you know, who the fellow -- the balding

16     fellow with the big moustache on the left side of the screen is?

17        A.   No, I don't know that man.

18        Q.   Have you heard of a man named Lieutenant-Colonel

19     Svetozar Kosoric, intel officer with the Drina Corps?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So do you know if you've ever met Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric?

22        A.   If that's him --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the name.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   Sorry.  I was just asking you if you'd ever met

Page 8252

 1     Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric before.  You said you've heard of him.  Had

 2     you ever met him before?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And I know this view isn't very good.  Were you at this

 5     table at this time; do you remember?

 6             Let's continue to watch it.  Maybe it will get clearer.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Indiscernible] there.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   Okay.  Is that you right in the front of the screen at

11     00:20:42.3, the profile?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   Sorry.  "00:29," sorry.  And the other person who we see across

14     the table from you, who's that?

15        A.   That's this Dudnjik from the Ukrainian Battalion.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's play a little more.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

19        Q.   Stopping at 00:29:55.3, we can just see that you were taking

20     notes.  Do you remember what you were taking notes about and why?

21        A.   Well, I got orders from General Mladic to keep a record, to take

22     notes.

23        Q.   And what was going on here, just briefly?

24        A.   Negotiations were about the voluntary departure of Muslims from

25     Zepa, and this is one of the rounds of negotiations where I attended.

Page 8253

 1     There were others that I did not attend.  And all these negotiations

 2     resulted, as you will later probably show, in the evacuation of the

 3     people from Zepa using this route Boksanica-Rogatica towards Sarajevo.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I can see it's break time.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey.  We

 6     must have our first break now.

 7             The Court Usher will assist you during the break.

 8             We will resume at quarter past 4.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             I had inadvertently forgotten to offer 65 ter 7001, the picture

14     of the Vila, into evidence.  So if I could do that now, I'd appreciate

15     it.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Only for a better understanding, is this already

17     on the 65 ter exhibit list?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, that was not something I did discuss with

19     Mr. Gajic, and -- we had talked about it.  He didn't have a problem.  It

20     was something the witness just identified in proofing.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I don't see any objection by the Defence.

22     Mr. Gajic.

23             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no objection.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter exhibit

25     list, and it will be received.  But I would like to -- yes, first the

Page 8254

 1     number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01433, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could that be played again and so that we can see

 4     it on the screen.  Not the video-clip but the photograph.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 7001, and the number, of course, you just

 6     gave it.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have it on the screen now.  I'd like to put

 8     one question to the witness about this photograph.

 9             On the left, the bottom side of this picture, there is

10     handwriting.  Can you tell us about that, with the date of the 30th of

11     November, 2010?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my signature that I affixed

13     to this photograph today, and I said that this was at the Vila at Borike.

14     And I did this in Mr. Tomasz' office.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That was just for

16     clarification.

17             Please continue, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             And we also -- it just said "attached as exhibit," so that

20     photograph was attached to his brief statement of this morning.  So

21     that's what that other handwriting was about.

22             Okay.  I think we can just continue a bit more of this

23     video-clip.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  We're stopping at 00:30:08.1, and I think

Page 8255

 1     that's -- I don't have any further questions, I think we've basically

 2     done what we need to.

 3             And if we could go to the next one, which is, we believe, 26

 4     July, Boksanica.  Same number, and, yeah, that's P00740.

 5             We're starting at 00:37:30.0.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

 8        Q.   Just stopping at 00:37:50.8, do you recognise the man in the

 9     uniform on the left side of the screen?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And who is that?

12        A.   General Tolimir.

13        Q.   And do you know the man that he's shaking hands with?  Do you

14     know who that is?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Have you ever seen or met the commander of the Zepa Brigade,

17     Avdo Palic?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Was he ever in custody in the Rogatica Brigade anywhere after the

20     Zepa population was transported out?

21        A.   As far as I know, no.

22        Q.   Who's responsible for providing supplies and logistics to the

23     prison facility in Rogatica?

24        A.   It was my Quarter-Master Service.

25        Q.   Were you aware of any Muslims from Zepa being held there after

Page 8256

 1     the population was transported out in July 1995?

 2        A.   After Zepa, I'm not aware that there were any people from Zepa

 3     held in custody.  As far as I knew, all these buses, and there were many

 4     of them, had gone through Rogatica and on to Sarajevo.

 5        Q.   Was there a detention facility in Rogatica in July 1995 that the

 6     military used?

 7        A.   Not in July.  But during the war years, there was a detention

 8     facility in Luznica.  That's on the outskirts of Rogatica -- or, rather,

 9     as one was going into Rogatica from Sarajevo, it was on the left-hand

10     side of the road.

11        Q.   What's it being used currently for now?

12        A.   Now, at that location, there are sawmills, privately-owned

13     sawmills that process timber.

14        Q.   Sir, perhaps it -- I know it was a long time ago.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a small clarification,

17     because the last reply that the witness gave was not fully interpreted,

18     perhaps because of the term -- of a term that the witness used that is

19     difficult to interpret into English.  So we would appreciate it if

20     Mr. McCloskey could put the question to the witness again, and perhaps

21     the witness can give a simpler answer, using simpler terms.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, would you like to do that?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Can you tell us, as simply as you can, what that prison facility

25     that was used during the war is currently being used for?

Page 8257

 1        A.   That site had several facilities.  Those facilities have been

 2     sold to private entrepreneurs who now use them mainly for processing

 3     timber and timber products.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Sir, I know it's been a long time, but there have been --

 5     there's, well, been at least one witness, there are other witnesses,

 6     there are documents.  It's very clear that in July 1995, that men from

 7     Zepa were being held at this place you've described, and they were

 8     eventually turned over -- some of them were turned over to the Red Cross

 9     and lived to come testify here.  In thinking about that now, do you think

10     you may have mis-recollected that?

11        A.   No, I stand by what I have said.  I had -- I have no information

12     that there were people held in custody there.  What I know is that we had

13     loyal people there from Okrugli and Satorovici who stayed there for a

14     while.  As for people from Zepa being held in custody, I don't know

15     anything about that.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, one of the documents I spoke to

17     you earlier about that I had put on the list -- actually, you asked me

18     about it, that I said I hadn't intended to use it, and I hadn't.  But the

19     witness has just provided me with an answer to a question that I would

20     like to use the document to refresh his recollection, to see if it will

21     refresh his recollection on this point.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which one is it?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It has been given the number of 6870.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it this is not yet in the 65 ter exhibit

25     list.

Page 8258

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct.  This is a document that we have

 2     recently received.  And as soon as we got it, we gave it to the Defence.

 3     I think it was a few weeks ago, though Ms. Stewart will correct me on

 4     that if I'm -- if I'm wrong.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Gajic, what is the position of

 6     the Defence, using this document?

 7             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, bear with me for a

 8     moment, please.

 9             The Defence has no objection.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then the document will be added to the 65 ter

11     exhibit list, and you may use it.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

13             And that -- if we could bring that up on the screen.  But I also

14     have a hard copy that I would like to give the witness, because it's

15     multi pages and I think it will be easier for him to take a look at it

16     that way.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the Court Usher, yes.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   And please take your time, take a look at it.  It will come up on

20     the screen in both languages here in a minute.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we have that document on the screen,

22     please.  We don't have it yet.

23             Now I think we see it on the screen.

24             Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  I'll just note, as we can slowly go

Page 8259

 1     through this document, that it is from the Command of the Rogatica

 2     Brigade, the Organ for Security and Intelligence, dated 30 July.

 3     General Miletic's name is written on the top of it.  It is from

 4     Captain Zoran Carkic, the chief of the security organ.

 5        Q.   Can you remind us who Carkic is, sir?

 6        A.   As I've already mentioned, Mr. Zoran Carkic was the assistant for

 7     security in the Rogatica Brigade.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And he sends this to the -- as we see from the first page,

 9     the Main Staff, Sector for Intel and Security, and the Security

10     Administration, and to the Command of the Drina Corps.  And it's entitled

11     "Regarding an A, information about rz ..."  Is "rz" "prisoners of war"?

12        A.   I don't know.

13        Q.   "... in the Holding Centre, Rogatica."  Then it reads:

14             "Since July 28, 1995, the following Muslims have a status of

15     prisoners of war, placed in the military holding centre in Rogatica."

16             The first one is "Mehmed Hajric," noted to be the president of

17     the War Presidency of Zepa and a hodja by profession.  Number 2 is

18     "Hamdija Torlak," the former president of the Municipal Executive Board,

19     an electrical engineer.  The third is "Amir Imamovic," former commander

20     of the Civil Protection Staff.  And then it goes on.  I won't name

21     everyone.  It lists several other folks.

22             I get to number 45.  It's page -- well, yeah, page 3 in the

23     English.  Page 2 is just a list of names as well.  Page 2 in the B/C/S.

24     Number 45 is, we hear this word again, "Atlantida," "1958, in a safe

25     place and at another location."

Page 8260

 1             What does this word "Atlantida" mean, anyway, just by itself, not

 2     as a code-name or anything, but what does it mean to you, "Atlantida"?

 3        A.   To me, personally, it doesn't mean anything.  This is the first

 4     time that I come across the word, "Atlantida."

 5        Q.   Is it -- I don't know if it's the fictional island that we grew

 6     up in school about that disappeared under the ocean.  Does that ring any

 7     bells?

 8        A.   No, it doesn't mean a thing.

 9        Q.   And were you ever aware that Avdo Palic was a prisoner and given

10     a code-name?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Okay.  And then as we go to page 4 in the English, it talks about

13     the Muslim prisoners being treated - page 3 in the B/C/S - and their

14     situation.  It says:

15             "Atlantida is a picture of health."

16             We go to page 5 in the English, and on the top of the page it

17     says:

18             "Pursuant to the orders and instructions of General Tolimir, all

19     the necessary measures are taken and in accordance to the possibility

20     they are mainly being carried out.  Among other things, the following was

21     done:"

22             And it talks about organising the prisoners in three different

23     rooms according to their -- wounded and sick in one room, members of the

24     former leadership in another room, and the healthy in another room.  It

25     says:

Page 8261

 1             "Atlantida is separated and placed in another location and has

 2     better accommodation.

 3             "The effendi is allowed to pray in a room five times a day.

 4             "They have food (three times a day) - they use the outhouse.

 5             "They have medical treatment.

 6             "On 30 July this year, they are visited and registered by the

 7     ICRC delegation office at Pale."

 8             So we can see from this document there appears to be prisoners

 9     held in Rogatica at a site, and General Tolimir has issued orders looking

10     after them.

11             And it goes on to talk about the evacuation of the civilian

12     population from Zepa.  And then at the end, some of the Muslim men

13     complained to General Tolimir that money had been taken by the people

14     separating them, and General Tolimir demanded that the case of the stolen

15     money be investigated.  That's page 6 in the English.  Carkic writes this

16     under the authority -- under the authorisation of General Tolimir.

17             Surely, does this help you refresh your recollection about the

18     men who were being held at Rogatica and being taken care of?

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could Mr. McCloskey please point

21     out where he found that I issued the order to Carkic to write this down,

22     because that's what he said in the transcript, or perhaps he should

23     rephrase his question to actually be in sync with the document.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We must just have a translation issue.  I was

Page 8262

 1     pretty much quoting the document and noting the pages.

 2             I would go to the last page and the last paragraph, where it

 3     says, right after I said that General Tolimir demanded that this stolen

 4     money be investigated, it says that Carkic wrote this, and I quote, "by

 5     authorisation from General Tolimir."  I'm not sure how that was

 6     translated to you, but that is those last three lines in B/C/S, and I

 7     quote:

 8             "By authorisation from General Tolimir.

 9             "Chief of the Intelligence and Security Organ,

10     Captain Zoran Carkic."

11             That should be the exact translation, so I hope that helps.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, carry on, please.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

14        Q.   So, sir, this is one of many records indicating that there was

15     prisoners there, most of whom were -- survived.  Does this help refresh

16     your recollection about Muslims being held in Rogatica at that facility

17     that is now used as a lumber facility?

18        A.   This is news to me, that such a large number of people from Zepa

19     were here.  I don't know for how many days you are saying they were

20     detained.  But after the end of Operation Zepa, I spent about 10 days in

21     Zepa.  I had a forward command post for logistics in the center of Zepa,

22     and we stayed there until the evacuation of all livestock was finalised

23     from the entire territory of Zepa.  So I really don't know about this.

24     All this is the responsibility of the Security Sector.  I had no

25     responsibility whatsoever concerning prisons or detention centres or

Page 8263

 1     prisoners.  Our only role was to provide food for the prison, and I have

 2     to stress that there were both Serbs and Muslim soldiers in the prison.

 3        Q.   So there were Muslim prisoners in the prison in Rogatica as well

 4     as Serbs; is that what you're saying now?

 5        A.   Yes.  As Muslims were detained, Serb soldiers were kept there

 6     too.  It was the same building, different rooms.

 7        Q.   Were you called on to provide any logistic support for the

 8     securing, transporting, killing and burying of Mehmed Hajric, number 1 on

 9     the list, Amir Imamovic, number 3 on the list, or Avdo Palic?

10        A.   No, no.  As far as these specific people are concerned, I was

11     never told they were in prison nor was any logistical support concerning

12     them ever asked for.

13        Q.   You were in Zepa for several days after the fall of Zepa.  Can

14     you tell us what happened to the mosque that was standing in Zepa after

15     all the Muslims left?

16        A.   Blown up.

17        Q.   Under whose orders?

18        A.   I wouldn't know that.

19        Q.   How do you know it was blown up?

20        A.   Because, as I said before, I was in Zepa after the operation, and

21     I was there with other people from logistics and transport, and I

22     looked -- I watched that detail from an elevation when the mosque was

23     blown up.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I think there could be a reason

25     for giving a caution to the witness at this point in time, pursuant to

Page 8264

 1     Rule 90(E) of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think you're absolutely correct, Mr. President,

 3     and I appreciate that.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I would like to give you some guidance,

 5     Mr. Razdoljac.

 6             You know you were asked quite a lot of questions.  They are very

 7     difficult for you, but I have to give you some guidance.

 8             We have, in our Rules of Procedure and Evidence, the Rule 90(E),

 9     and I would like to read it out for you.  And I quote:

10             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

11     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

12     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

13     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

14     offence other than false testimony."

15             Did you understand what I was reading to you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I did.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  Thank you.

18             Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   So you saw the mosque get blown up?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So what kind of explosion -- what explosives were used?

23        A.   I don't know.  I was not on that team.  If you were listening, I

24     said I had watched that from an elevation.  There was a team that came

25     from outside because we did not have these explosives experts, as they

Page 8265

 1     call them, in our brigade.  I'm not sure, but I heard later that a lot of

 2     anti-tank mines were laid there.  I don't know if there's any connection

 3     with the blowing up of the mosque, all I know is that it was destroyed.

 4        Q.   How many people were in the unit that destroyed it, that you saw?

 5        A.   Five or six, I think.

 6        Q.   And what kind of vehicle did they have?

 7        A.   I really don't know.  There was a military vehicle of some sort.

 8        Q.   And were they in uniform?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Were they Serb forces?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Were they army forces?

13        A.   Of course.  As long as they were uniformed, they were members of

14     the VRS.

15        Q.   In your opinion, as an assistant commander for logistics

16     throughout the war, could that mosque have been blown up by that army

17     unit without the knowledge of the chief of intelligence and security of

18     the Main Staff, Zdravko Tolimir?

19        A.   I don't know that.  I don't know who knew about it or who gave

20     the orders.

21        Q.   The houses around the town were destroyed as well, weren't they?

22        A.   In Rogatica?

23        Q.   Zepa.

24        A.   In Zepa?  Zepa is not a town.  Zepa has always been a village.

25        Q.   At about the same time the mosque was blown up, were there houses

Page 8266

 1     around the village of Zepa destroyed as well?

 2        A.   No.  On that day when the mosque was blown up, it was just the

 3     mosque.  These young men, the sappers, just did that job, as we say, and

 4     then left.

 5        Q.   Well, in the days after that or before that, were houses around

 6     the Zepa village destroyed by fire or by explosives?  And, sir, I can

 7     tell you I have a photograph.

 8        A.   I don't know what you have, but the houses that were destroyed in

 9     Zepa, I think, were burned.  The mosque was the only thing that was blown

10     up, to the best of my knowledge and from all I saw, because while I was

11     there in Zepa, after the Operation Zepa was finished, in the schoolhouse

12     not 100 metres away from me, the UNPROFOR was based, and I remember very

13     clearly three or four days later, after the army moved through Zepa, an

14     old Muslim woman showed up suddenly, and I turned her over to the

15     UNPROFOR to be shipped to Sarajevo.  The only thing she asked for was a

16     cigarette, and she was sitting on the threshold in the courtyard of the

17     mosque.

18        Q.   So the houses that we're talking about, you've acknowledged on

19     line 9:  "But the houses --" and I'm quoting you "-- that were destroyed

20     in Zepa, I think, were burned."

21             Yes.  And who burned them?

22        A.   Well, probably the army.

23        Q.   Can you tell us -- you've grown up in Rogatica, I'm sure you had

24     Muslim friends, you probably still do.  How important is the village

25     mosque to a Muslim in their culture and their identity?

Page 8267

 1        A.   Well, it's probably as important as the church is to us Orthodox

 2     Christians.

 3        Q.   And tell us how important the church is, then, so we know both.

 4        A.   Well, if you ask to what extent, every place of worship is very

 5     important to every nation, every people, every community.  That's where

 6     you pray to God.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.  I don't have any other

 8     questions.

 9             And, Your Honour, regarding this document - it's 6870 - because

10     it is relatively new and we could provide much more information, I would

11     only offer it at this time if the General Tolimir would offer it with me.

12     Otherwise, I would provide you with more detail and more information

13     about where it came from and how it came to us, and give the Defence more

14     time to look at it themselves.  If he wishes to offer it with us, we will

15     offer it now for you.  If not, I will hold off on that and provide you

16     more evidence about it, which we will, of course, do anyway.  But that is

17     my offer to the Defence.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a fair proposition.

19             Mr. Tolimir, what is your position?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             I greet everyone present.  I hope that this hearing and the whole

22     trial will be completed in keeping with God's will, not necessarily mine.

23             I do not object to the admission of this document regarding Zepa

24     and the events in Zepa.  I don't mind.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

Page 8268

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In that event, I do offer this into evidence,

 2     Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as an exhibit.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01434, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I have nothing further.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we are waiting for some additional

 7     clarification about what you proposed and how you received this document

 8     at a later stage of this trial.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Absolutely, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question for the witness.

11             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you very much.  In fact, I have three

12     clarifications that I hope you can give me.

13             At page 6, line -- at page 6 of today's transcript, lines 12 to

14     13, you are recorded as having said the following, that:

15             "The 27th Logistics Base, I believe, belonged to both the Drina

16     and the Sarajevo Corps, and I supplied them both."

17             Can you just clarify that for me, especially with regard to the

18     fact that you supplied them both, and what the relationship is between

19     the two, the Sarajevo Corps and the Drina Corps.  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not exactly what I said.

21     I think there must be a misunderstanding.

22             I was not with the 27th Logistics Brigade.  I was assistant

23     commander for logistics in the Rogatica Brigade.  27th is the number of

24     the logistics base that was supposed to provide logistical support both

25     to the Sarajevo Corps and the Drina Corps.

Page 8269

 1             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 2             So then what is the relationship between the Drina Corps and the

 3     Sarajevo Corps?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What kind of relationship?  A good

 5     relationship.

 6             In the beginning of the war, the first year or two of the war,

 7     the Rogatica Brigade belonged to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and later,

 8     by virtue of some order, it was attached to the Drina Corps.

 9             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

10             My second question relates to -- you must forgive me.  I'm trying

11     to understand the complete context in which these events occurred.

12             At page 32, lines 6 to 9, you have referred to during the war

13     years, there was a detention facility in a place.  Which war years are

14     you referring to here?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From early 1993 until the signing

16     of the Dayton Accords, I think.

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

18             I have one more question for you.

19             At page 42, lines 3 to 4, you have referred -- in answering a

20     question from the Prosecution, you referred to:

21             "These young men, these sappers, just did that job, as we say,

22     and then left."

23             Who are the sappers?  Can you just give me a little bit of more

24     explanation?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sappers, s-a-p-p-e-r-s,

Page 8270

 1     belonged to the VRS.  And from where exactly they came, on whose orders,

 2     I don't know.  I did not have any contact with them nor did I provide

 3     them with logistical support for this action.

 4             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you very much for your explanations.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now Mr. Tolimir has the right to cross-examine

 7     you, and you will be asked to answer his questions.

 8             Mr. Tolimir, please commence your cross-examination.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             Good afternoon again to everyone.  Good afternoon to the witness.

11     I hope he has a pleasant stay with us and a good return home, with God's

12     blessings.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Now, let's start from the end, to make it easier for you.

16             Do you know when the evacuation of Zepa was completed and when

17     all the activities in Zepa were finalised?

18        A.   It lasted for --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to -- I thought we didn't receive

20     interpretation.  Therefore, I stopped you.  But you may continue.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I don't know exactly when

22     the evacuation was completed, but it took several days.  I know what my

23     task was within it, where I participated in securing 50 to 60 buses and

24     lorries that carried the people being evacuated from Zepa, and the

25     support in the travel over bad roads towards Boksanica, and that involved

Page 8271

 1     the assistance from us who were in Boksanica and assistance from the

 2     UNPROFOR.  People moved over to buses, and then a convoy was formed which

 3     travelled, as far as I know, to Sarajevo.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the e-court display 1D --

 5     sorry, no, D55, page 32, paragraph 114.  That's the page before in

 6     English.  Thank you, thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   This is paragraph 114.  I will read it out to remind you of these

 9     events, and then I'll ask my question.

10             At --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you please indicate which kind

12     of document you are reading from.  What is it about?  We didn't receive a

13     list of documents to be used during the cross-examination.  That is the

14     reason why I asked for that.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the document called "The

16     Fall of Zepa," a report on the military events, prepared for the OTP by

17     Mr. Bezruchenko.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I quote paragraph 114:

21             "At 2345 hours on 27 July, the last convoy with 325 displaced

22     persons left Zepa for Kladanj, while the VRS made another ultimatum to

23     BiH soldiers to lay down their arms by 0800 hours on 28th July.  At 1015

24     on 29 July, the UNPROFOR liaison team reported that the evacuation was

25     completed and that control was being established over isolated villages

Page 8272

 1     in the pocket.  General Mladic and UNPROFOR commander General Smith held

 2     a meeting in the early afternoon."

 3             Now, concerning these activities that I read about on the 27th

 4     and 28th July, do you remember where you were at the time and if you were

 5     in Zepa?

 6        A.   During the evacuation, and this text says that the evacuation was

 7     taking place on those days, I was at Boksanica.  As I said before, I

 8     don't know the exact dates, but I did not go down into Zepa until it was

 9     practically clean; that is to say, until the VRS had moved to the

10     Zepa Mountain.  Only when the VRS was on Zepa Mountain did we get the

11     orders to go down into Zepa.

12        Q.   Tell us, for the record, what date was it, approximately, when

13     the army moved to Mount Zepa?  Because the Trial Chamber does not know,

14     and they will have to make a judgement about our activities on that

15     basis.

16        A.   When the army moved to Mount Zepa, in July/early August, I think.

17     I don't know.  You really shouldn't try to pin me down to particular

18     dates, because the time has done its work.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now display paragraph 117.

20             There it is.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   I'll quote the first three lines:

23             "The commander of the 285th Brigade, Avdo Palic, was in VRS

24     custody on 28th July because General Tolimir had reported that the 285th

25     Brigade commander, Avdo Palic, had supplied information on minefields in

Page 8273

 1     the area of Zepa."

 2             Is it obvious from this document that General Tolimir did not

 3     hide the fact that Avdo Palic was in detention, in the custody of the

 4     VRS?  On the contrary, he said specifically that Avdo Palic had provided

 5     information about minefields.

 6        A.   I don't know if you were hiding it or not.  I said all I could

 7     say about Avdo Palic.  I did not meet him, and I don't know what was

 8     going on with him at that time, and I don't know that he was in

 9     detention.

10        Q.   But if somebody makes a written report, saying that somebody is

11     in detention and that this person had provided information about

12     minefields, does the writer of such a report hide the fact that this

13     person is in detention, or is it, on the contrary, an action of

14     transparency?

15        A.   Of course it's transparent.  You can see that there's -- no one's

16     making any bones about it.

17        Q.   Do you remember when it was that you saw this mosque being blown

18     up in Zepa, as you talked about it a little earlier?

19        A.   I don't know the exact day, but I know it was sometime in the

20     morning, around 10.00 or 11.00, that that was done.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you remember whether you saw any officers from

22     the Main Staff in Zepa at the time?

23        A.   No.  I am 100 per cent sure that no one was there, no officers,

24     because the forward command post was near the mosque and they were called

25     out -- we were called and told that we should withdraw.  And we went up

Page 8274

 1     there to that elevation, and me and my men, we just stood there and

 2     watched what was happening without a word.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. McCloskey asked you whether the mosque could have

 4     been blown up without the knowledge of General Tolimir.  Now, could you

 5     tell me, please, whether you saw General Tolimir there, where your

 6     forward command post was in Zepa?

 7        A.   Well, I state with full responsibility that on that day

 8     General Tolimir was not in Zepa.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether General Tolimir was in Zepa on

10     the 30th, after the civilians were evacuated?  Thank you.

11        A.   I don't think you were there after the evacuation of the

12     population.  I don't think you were in Zepa.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We saw a little earlier that the evacuation was

14     concluded on the 28th.  We quoted paragraph 114.

15             Now can we take a look at paragraph 119.  In Serbian, that's on

16     the next page.  We see 119 in English before us, and that's on the next

17     page in Serbian.

18             And it says there, and I quote paragraph 119:

19             "An UNPROFOR Civil Affairs report is broadly consistent with the

20     UNPROFOR report dated 28th of July."

21             And then they go on and speak about:

22             "The forced cleansing of women, children and elderly in 20 buses

23     provided by the Serbs was carried out, if not with dignity at least with

24     UNPROFOR escorts and without the same large-scale abuses of human rights

25     as occurred in Srebrenica.  However, in one case, two women were said to

Page 8275

 1     have been forcibly removed from a bus by Serb soldiers in unclear

 2     circumstances.  By 28th July, 4.336 civilians, including 197 wounded, had

 3     left Zepa and been transported to BH territory."

 4             Thank you.  My question now.

 5             Since UNPROFOR confirmed in its report the description of the

 6     evacuation in Zepa, and they also mentioned this incident with the

 7     removal of the two women from the bus, is it clear, from what it states

 8     here, that the evacuation was conducted on the 28th of July, as it says

 9     in the report there?  Is this, in fact, a report of the 28th of July?

10        A.   I'm not clear what you mean by your question, if that was a

11     question for me.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at paragraph 119, line 2.  Is this

13     report, provided by the UNPROFOR, dated the 28th of July, which I quoted,

14     where they described the manner in which people from Zepa were evacuated?

15     Would you please take a look at the date.  When is -- what is the date on

16     that report?  Could you please tell us?  That's in paragraph 119.

17             I will repeat my question.

18             What is the date of this report by UNPROFOR that I quoted a

19     moment ago in paragraph 119?

20        A.   Are you asking me to comment on paragraph 119 with -- where it

21     says, "The forced cleansing of women, children, and the elderly," and so

22     on?

23        Q.   No, no, no, that's not what I'm asking you to do.  I'm just

24     asking you whether this report is from the 28th of July, this UNPROFOR

25     report, because it says here that this report is broadly consistent with

Page 8276

 1     UNPROFOR report dated the 28th July.  So have I quoted that correctly,

 2     the report that is mentioned in paragraph 119?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Well, if you're asking me about the date, I really don't know

 4     whether it was, in fact, on that date, as stated in the UNPROFOR report.

 5     I'm a bit confused by your question --

 6        Q.   Well, I quoted an UNPROFOR report, a document where an UNPROFOR

 7     report is quoted, and all I'm asking you is whether this is in fact an

 8     UNPROFOR report of 28th of July.

 9        A.   Well, that's what it says here.

10        Q.   Well, that's all I wanted you to confirm, because you said you

11     couldn't remember the date when the mosque was blown up.  So I just want

12     to place this in some kind of time-frame.

13             Now, could you please take a look at paragraph 124.

14             We'll see that it says in paragraph 124 the following:

15             "On 21st July, UNPROFOR in Zepa reported that VRS was burning

16     houses in the town and nearby villages.  There were some skirmishes and

17     detonations in the hills.  On 1st August, the situation in the enclave

18     was relatively quiet.  UNPROFOR units in Zepa received the order to leave

19     the pocket on the 2nd of August and reached Sarajevo on the next day."

20             My question is this:  Were UNPROFOR units in Zepa while you were

21     observing the mining or blowing up of the mosque?

22        A.   Yes, they were.

23        Q.   So was this before August [as interpreted] 31st, when they left

24     Zepa?

25        A.   I don't know when they left Zepa nor do I know the day when the

Page 8277

 1     mosque was blown up, but I know that the UNPROFOR was there on that day

 2     and that they were advised -- cautioned to evacuate from there, to move

 3     to a safe area.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  The reason I asked you about this is just to try to

 5     determine the sequence of events and the persons who were in Zepa at the

 6     time, because here it says that UNPROFOR left Zepa on 31st July.

 7             Now, my next question:  After the 28th, when the evacuation in

 8     Zepa was over, was -- did anyone from the Main Staff remain in Zepa or

 9     were only people from the forward command post left there?

10        A.   After the fall of Zepa, there were only some troops from the

11     Rogatica Brigade --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the other

13     brigade.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ... left in Zepa, but there was no

15     one left from the Main Staff in Zepa after its fall.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, you just said that after the fall of Zepa,

18     there was only some troops from the Rogatica Brigade, and I think you

19     mentioned another unit.  Can you repeat that, because the interpreters

20     didn't catch that name.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the evacuation of the

22     civilians and the fall of Zepa, only forces of the Rogatica Brigade and

23     some members of the Visegrad Brigade remained in Zepa.  Later on, I don't

24     know whether that was five, seven, or ten days later, the forces from the

25     Visegrad Brigade also departed from Zepa.  And only a battalion of the

Page 8278

 1     Rogatica Brigade remained in Zepa, and that was the battalion that had

 2     already been on Zepa Mountain on the border-line between the Srebrenica

 3     and Rogatica municipality.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this clarification.

 5             Mr. Tolimir.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Razdoljac, Mr. McCloskey, the Prosecutor, in his

 8     examination-in-chief, asked you whether there were any detainees in Zepa,

 9     in prison, and you said that you couldn't remember.  And then he told you

10     that there were some people who were held in detention there, and they

11     testified.  And he also showed you a list.  Now, I would like to ask you

12     about this detention.

13             Were the detainees accessible to the representatives of the

14     International Red Cross?  In other words, was this an open-type detention

15     facility where the ICRS [as interpreted] could have access?

16        A.   Yes, I do know that it was open to visits by the

17     ICRS [as interpreted].

18        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that no one from the Main Staff or any

19     members of the Rogatica Brigade tried to conceal who was held in

20     Rogatica?  In view of the fact that this was an open-type facility, it

21     was open to representatives of the International Red Cross, and they

22     could visit them and be told by the detainees what was going on there?

23     Do you know anything about that?

24        A.   Yes, I do, and it is certain that this detention facility in

25     Rogatica was -- there were no attempts to conceal it.

Page 8279

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether some detainees did any work in

 2     Zepa?  Can they form a sort of labour unit to collect certain raw

 3     materials and so on?

 4        A.   Well, I'm not familiar with that.  I'm not familiar that there

 5     was any labour unit made up of detainees in Zepa to collect second-hand

 6     raw materials.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's request:  Could the accused

 9     please repeat his question.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm very sorry to stop both speakers.  The

11     interpreters have a big problem because you are overlapping.  You should

12     pause between question and answer.  Otherwise, the interpreters will not

13     catch it.

14             Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat your last question.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  My

16     apologies, both to the Chamber and the interpreters.

17             I asked the witness whether it was his responsibility to know

18     what other organs, who were not his subordinates, wrote about and

19     reported, such as, for instance, Mr. Carkic, who was not a part of the

20     Logistics Unit.  So I would just like the witness to repeat his answer

21     now.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that I had no way of

23     knowing that nor was it my responsibility to know what was going on or

24     being done in the security organ.  I received my orders only from the

25     brigade commander that had to do with logistics, and I reported to him.

Page 8280

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. McCloskey showed you a document dated the 30th of July,

 3     signed by Captain Zoran Carkic, where, at the end of the document, he

 4     says -- and that was on the last page.  He talks about various problems.

 5     That's in paragraph D, the last page of the document, and there he goes

 6     on to report or mention that some money was taken away from the

 7     detainees.  And then he says by order of General Tolimir, he was to

 8     investigate this.  So now I would like to ask you whether he could state

 9     that he was doing something according to my authority or under my

10     authority if I was not even in Zepa on that day.

11        A.   Well, probably not.  That's just perhaps his formulation.

12        Q.   Well, does this here, then, perhaps relate to something that I

13     said earlier?  Because we see, from what it says there, that these

14     Muslims had complained to General Tolimir - in other words, to me - and

15     said that this was done by some men who were led by -- whose leader was a

16     short man, Crni, and we see this document before us now that was the part

17     that Mr. McCloskey referred you to.  We see it now on our screens, and it

18     says there:

19             "Obviously -- it is obvious that this is Lieutenant Matic, who at

20     the moment of separation of the Muslims, came to the spot and carried out

21     searches in the school and at the school compound."

22             And then the last sentence reads:

23             "General Tolimir demands that this case be investigated and money

24     found."

25             Might this refer to his paragraph D and to the statement that he

Page 8281

 1     puts there, that I demanded that this be investigated and money found and

 2     returned?

 3        A.   I don't know that.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answers.  Thank

 5     you for coming to testify here, and thank you for your decent conduct.  I

 6     wish you a safe journey home.

 7             And thank you, Mr. President, as well as everyone who followed

 8     this testimony and my cross-examination.  I have completed.  I have no

 9     further questions for this witness.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

11             Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If I could have one minute, Mr. President.

13             Mr. President, could we take the break a little early and let me

14     see?  I don't have much, but we -- but I'd like to be able to review the

15     material and determine that.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is a good proposal.

17             We must have our second break now, and again the Court Usher will

18     assist you during the break, sir.

19             We will resume five minutes past 6.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey, your re-examination.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

25        Q.   Witness, on cross-examination, you, I think, clarified and

Page 8282

 1     reiterated to General Tolimir that you were involved in the logistics of

 2     getting vehicles for transporting people out of Zepa, and I want to just

 3     ask you a question or two about that.

 4             Do you know, was the main -- what would be the traditional chain

 5     of command for major orders like that, to get -- to get vehicles, bring

 6     them to an area, and move them out?  Would that traditionally start as

 7     high as the Main Staff?

 8        A.   Well, it's logical that all operations and decisions be made

 9     first at the Main Staff, and that includes the decision to provide a

10     large number of vehicles.  It must have originated at the Main Staff.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in chief, there was

13     no mention -- sorry.  In the cross-examination, there was no mention of

14     procurement of vehicles.  The witness was not asked about it.  Now, who

15     made the request for vehicles, that is something that must have happened

16     during the talks which this witness attended.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, can you give any reference?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  In the time we have, I'm

19     sure I could find it, but the witness clearly talked about and reiterated

20     that he was getting -- he was doing his job of providing for

21     transportation and doing the logistics, stating what his job was, and now

22     I'm trying to give context to that, on where that came from.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was that during examination-in-chief or during

24     cross?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It was cross.  It was actually both.  You

Page 8283

 1     remember, in examination, when I asked him what he was taking notes on,

 2     he said he was taking notes on getting ready on the 19th because they

 3     were about to reach an agreement.  And then he, at least once, I think

 4     twice, answered a question, in response to the general, that what he was

 5     doing was organising and doing his logistics job.  I mean, he must have

 6     repeated that more than once, because that's what he kept coming back to

 7     when he was asked to divert into other areas.

 8             I think -- I know it's late, but I specifically remember that,

 9     and I'm sorry I don't have the exact line and page.  I can come up with

10     it.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I can't assist you at the moment because I don't

12     know where to find it.  But perhaps Mr. Tolimir can help us.

13             Mr. Tolimir.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in my

15     cross-examination, I only asked the witness about the last three issues.

16     I didn't ask him anything about the evacuation, about the negotiations,

17     or logistics.  I only asked him about his stay in Zepa, the blowing up of

18     the mosque, and the detention.

19             About the purchase, under normal circumstances, of the vehicles

20     for evacuation, I did not ask anything.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I've got the line.  And I should stress it's not

23     always the question, especially when it's a witness of the same

24     organisation.  It's the answer that I am referring to, and I can show you

25     that it's on page 46.  And line 15, he starts asking questions about when

Page 8284

 1     the activities in Zepa were finalised -- the question goes:

 2             "How -- let's start from the end, to make it easier for you.  Do

 3     you know when the evacuation of Zepa was completed and when all the

 4     activities in Zepa were finalised?"

 5             Okay, this is a very broad two-part question, and it's the answer

 6     that I'm dealing with.  The witness:

 7             "I said I don't know exactly when the evacuation was completed,

 8     but it took several days.  I know what my task was within it, where I

 9     participated in securing 50 to 60 buses and lorries that carried the

10     people being evacuated from Zepa and the support to the travel over bad

11     roads towards Boksanica, and that involved the assistance from us, who

12     were in Boksanica, and assistance from UNPROFOR.  People moved over to

13     buses, and then a convoy was formed which travelled, as far as I know, to

14     Sarajevo."

15             Now, this -- he says --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think, Mr. McCloskey, this is a sufficient

17     reference to a part of the cross-examination.

18             Please carry on.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Yes, sir, and I think you answered the question and said

21     something to the effect that it would be natural for the Main Staff to be

22     involved.  And can you just remind us, how does the basic chain of

23     command work?  If the Main Staff wants something done, where does it send

24     its orders to, normally?  Where is the next basic unit or military

25     organisation?  And just very briefly.

Page 8285

 1        A.   Well, the next step was the corps.

 2        Q.   All right.  And from the corps, it would then go to where?

 3        A.   The brigade command.

 4        Q.   Let me show you 65 ter 2254.

 5             And, again, with the help of the Usher, I can give you a -- well,

 6     it's one page.  It's probably easier we just -- we just go there.

 7             And if we can blow it up, I'll look at the English.

 8             So we can see that this is from the Main Staff of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska, Logistics Sector; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And it's to the 27th Logistic Base, as you've described where

12     that fit in, and to the DK Command.  And that's Drina Corps Command;

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And that's to the assistant commander for logistics.  All right.

16     And I just look at the order, and it talks -- and we can see it --

17        A.   Yes, "PKPO," that's "Assistant Commander for Logistics."

18        Q.   All right.  And it's entitled "Order to transport of people and

19     pull-out of war booty from Zepa."  And we see, on that first page, it

20     then goes on and says:

21             "In order to transport people and collect and take war booty out

22     of Zepa in an organised manner, I hereby issue the following:"

23             And I won't go through the entire order, but it talks about --

24     can you read that first line:  "The chief of -- " what service is that,

25     under number 1?

Page 8286

 1        A.   "Chief," and I can't make out, "Gr Sl."

 2        Q.   I think -- I'm sorry, it's small, but it's "GSVRS," which I think

 3     we know what that is.  The word "obezbedice," something like that, what

 4     word is that?

 5        A.   "Shall provide --" am I to read this aloud?

 6        Q.   Actually, I just want to ask you:  What is that service that you

 7     just described?  What does it do, "obez" -- sorry, I can't pronounce it,

 8     "obezbedice"?

 9        A.   "Shall secure," "shall send."

10        Q.   But what is this service?  Is it a construction service, a

11     transportation service, a security service?  I'm just not sure of the

12     English translation, so I'm just asking you, what does this word mean,

13     "obezbedice"?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you misunderstood his answer.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it says -- as it continues,

16     it reads ...

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Complete your answer, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says exactly what they will

19     provide; one bus for transport at 1000 hours, 50 buses to transport

20     people.  That means that 51 buses, in total, should be supplied.

21             Or if I may go back to what you just said, there was no talk here

22     about procurement or purchase.  General Tolimir said those were talks at

23     Boksanica, where the representatives of the Muslim people agreed, and

24     they wanted buses to be supplied.  And my only duty was to provide buses

25     available in my municipality.  And my municipality, Rogatica, was a small

Page 8287

 1     town.  It didn't have more than five buses, all in all, so we also

 2     involved the civilian presidency of the municipality to get co-operation

 3     from other municipalities in order to provide a sufficient number of

 4     buses; 50, 60.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this answer.  It was a long answer

 6     to a very short question.  The question was related only to the word

 7     "obezbedice," if I understood you correctly, Mr. McCloskey, and that was

 8     already answered by the witness.  That seems to be "shells secured" or

 9     "shells sent."  It's not a unit, in my understanding, but you could

10     clarify that with the witness again.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  I think you're probably right.

12        Q.   Let me ask you:  It says:  "The chief of the GrSl ..."  What is

13     "GrSl," if you remember?

14        A.   I don't know this abbreviation.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And if we could just go to page 2 in

16     the English, it should be -- and I just want to point out or ask you --

17     this is also to the 27th POB Command, also asking for vehicles.

18             Can we look at the bottom of the original B/C/S.  Unfortunately,

19     it's been torn a bit, so we can't see any name.  I don't know if you

20     could help us.

21             If we could just put up the B/C/S and blow it up a bit.  We don't

22     need the English for this.  And go -- yeah, so we can get the whole

23     bottom of it.

24        Q.   Can you read that last line, starting with "zamenik"?

25        A.   "Deputy assistant commander," and nothing else.  The rest is

Page 8288

 1     missing.

 2        Q.   All right.  Any idea who that might be from logistics of the

 3     Main Staff?

 4        A.   As far as I know, the deputy assistant commander for logistics

 5     was the late General Djukic.  Sorry, the assistant commander for

 6     logistics was General Djukic.  I don't know that he had a deputy

 7     assistant commander.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right, thank you.

 9             All right, let's now go to -- get a little bit closer to your

10     brigade area.  65 ter 5279.

11        Q.   And as you'll see, we have here is the same date, the 19th of

12     July.  This one is from the commander, Major General Radislav Krstic, and

13     it's from the Drina Corps Command.  So this one is from Krstic, the

14     commander of the Drina Corps.  And does it appear to you to be on a

15     similar subject, mobilisation of motor vehicles, a request, as we see,

16     and it talks about the organised transport of the population from the

17     former enclave of Zepa?  So this is the same basic subject; correct?

18        A.   Well, that's precisely as I said.  The Main Staff would send to

19     the lower command, that is to say, the corps command, their orders, and

20     the corps sent it to the 27th Logistics Base and brigade commands, and

21     the 27th Logistics Base sometimes sent orders directly to the assistant

22     commander for logistics in various brigades.  It sent orders directly, in

23     other words, to the logistics organ of the brigades, except in this order

24     from General Krstic, it lists what must be sent, broken down by

25     municipalities; Vlasenica, Milici, Bratunac, Zvornik, Rogatica, Visegrad.

Page 8289

 1     It says exactly how many assets must be provided by each municipality.

 2        Q.   And, yes, this is sent to the Ministry of Defence, among others,

 3     Rogatica.  And I think, similarly to what you said, Rogatica had five

 4     buses and three freight trucks; is that about correct?

 5        A.   This thing that was sent to the Ministries of Defence, that means

 6     the Ministry of Defence of Rogatica had to requisition these vehicles on

 7     the territory of the municipality; three buses and three freight trucks.

 8     That is to say, the Ministry of Defence had to issue a receipt when

 9     requisitioning a vehicle from a private owner.

10        Q.   Now, can you explain to us -- we can see, as you've just said,

11     that this is not an order to the brigades here but that it's an order to

12     the Ministry of Defence for Rogatica.  Can you explain what the

13     relationship is, and just briefly, between the Ministry of Defence organ

14     at Rogatica and the army unit of Rogatica that you were part of?

15        A.   Well, the Ministry of Defence was certainly part of the military

16     defence of Rogatica, but the Ministry of Defence acted on the civilian

17     level and it received requests for what needed to be mobilised and

18     requisitioned; that is to say, recruits and equipment.

19        Q.   Okay, and just one last little twist to this.

20             The stamp in the lower left corner shows that it's a stamp from

21     the Command of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade.  This is now, of

22     course, a VRS unit; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And can you tell us what this 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade is

25     familiarly known as, what city it's usually known as?

Page 8290

 1        A.   Sokolac.

 2        Q.   All right.  And we see that Sokolac is one of the Ministry of

 3     Defence people -- or units in this order.  Do you recall whether or not

 4     you received this or something like it from the Drina Corps that engaged

 5     you in what you were talking about in your testimony earlier?

 6        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

 7        Q.   I'm just wondering.  Do you recall getting an order -- a written

 8     order like this to engage you into getting buses and vehicles from

 9     Rogatica?

10        A.   I can't remember.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

12             I'd like to offer both 2254 and 5279, these last two documents,

13     into evidence.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received as exhibits.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Just for the record, I'd like

16     to mention that 65 ter 02254 is received as Exhibit P01435, and 65 ter

17     05279 is received as Exhibit P01436.  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

21        Q.   And, sir, I think we'll all remember that General Tolimir asked

22     you or stated on cross-examination, in a question to you, that the

23     prisoners at the Rogatica detention site were fully open to the ICRC, and

24     I believe you agreed with him.  And I want to show you a document,

25     P00122, on that point.

Page 8291

 1             If we could blow it up so he'll have a chance to read it, and the

 2     same thing for us.  And I'll try to briefly go over this.

 3             It's from the Main Staff of the VRS, Sector for Intel and

 4     Security, dated 29 July, "Very Urgent."  And we see that it's to the IKM

 5     of the Drina Corps, personally to Krstic, Intelligence and Security of

 6     the Drina Corps, and then the Command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry

 7     Brigade.  That's your brigade in Rogatica; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And it says personally it's to your commander,

10     Lieutenant-Colonel Rajko Kusic, and to Captain Pecanac.  Who is Captain

11     Pecanac?

12        A.   Captain Pecanac was a member of the corps or the Main Staff.  I'm

13     not exactly sure.  I don't know if he was the man in charge of security

14     or morale, but he was -- he did not belong to my brigade.

15        Q.   Okay.  I'll try to briefly go over this, because there's only one

16     section I really want to call to your attention.

17             But we see it's entitled "Disarmament of the 1st Zepa Brigade,"

18     and it says:

19             "On 28th of July, 1995, the Muslim side on several occasions,

20     through UNPROFOR, asked for the --"

21        A.   My apologies.  Are you reading from the beginning or are you just

22     reading another excerpt?

23        Q.   Just from the beginning, starting:  "Dana 28 ..."

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And I think we can all read to ourselves that paragraph.  It

Page 8292

 1     talks about the term of an agreement, signed on the 24th, regarding the

 2     disarmament of the brigade and the evacuation of its members, with

 3     UNPROFOR vehicles after exchange of prisoners that would be carried out

 4     in the whole territory, according to the principle "all for all."  And

 5     then the next paragraph, it says:

 6             "In order to avoid being cheated by Muslims, the implementation

 7     of the cessation of fire was conditioned by liberation of all VRS members

 8     captured at Majevica, Lisaca and Vijenac."

 9             Then it goes on to talks about the surrender of UNPROFOR weapons

10     and the disarmed members of the Zepa Brigade just to be kept at the

11     UNPROFOR camp at Zepa until the exchange of prisoners.

12             And then this paragraph is what I wanted to ask you about.  It

13     says:

14             "Continue combat operations in order to surround and destroy the

15     1st Zepa Brigade until the Muslims make the exchange and carry out the

16     agreement from 24 July related to their disarmament and surrender."

17             And you're aware that at this -- at some point after the women

18     and children were transported, the men in the army at Zepa were still

19     fighting the VRS in the woods; correct?

20        A.   Following the evacuation of women and children and all those who

21     wanted to leave, armed troops, the Muslim Army, remained still in the

22     area of Zepa.

23        Q.   And is this what this paragraph is referring to?

24        A.   I don't know what it says here.  I should read the whole

25     paragraph.  But what I do know is that after the civilians left, they

Page 8293

 1     continued to offer resistance, and there was also talk about some 800 to

 2     900, 950, Zepa Brigade troops who crossed the Drina River and crossed

 3     over to the territory of Serbia.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And it's -- and then it says:

 5             "Take all necessary measures to prevent them from leaving the

 6     encirclement."

 7             And then it says -- and I should point out that this is under the

 8     name of General Tolimir, as we'll get to the end.  Then it says:

 9             "Do not register persons you capture before cessation of fire,

10     and do not report them to international organisations.  We are going to

11     keep them for exchange in case the Muslims do not carry out the agreement

12     or they manage to break through from the encirclement."

13             Do you recall anyone -- did you hear any orders -- or did you

14     receive any orders or did you even hear about any orders that you were

15     not to register Muslim prisoners captured during these combat operations?

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             During the cross-examination, we only talked about the prisoners

19     of war who were already in detention facilities.  But here, what is

20     mentioned here are the prisoners or fighters who crossed over to the

21     Republic of Serbia, and they didn't even surrender.  So I would ask the

22     Prosecutor to make the distinction.  So what it says here is that they

23     should not be registered until the cessation of fire, so the Prosecutor

24     should make a distinction between what happened and what never happened.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

Page 8294

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I agree with the general that what he was talking

 2     about in cross was the -- he was suggesting the prisoners at Rogatica

 3     were fully registered and looked after.  And what I'm showing here is, at

 4     the same time-frame, just a few kilometres away, General Tolimir is

 5     issuing instructions that when people get captured, they don't get

 6     registered.  So this idea that they're registering people all the time is

 7     being contradicted.

 8             Clearly, the general's point about the Rogatica prison was that

 9     they were registering and treated them according to the Geneva

10     Conventions.  Well, as you know, I can test that, but I think it's

11     perfectly fair for me to show, in the same neighbourhood, the same troops

12     are capturing the same kind of men from the same unit and are

13     specifically, for an unknown and unjustified reason, in my view, not

14     registering them.  It's precisely on point to what he is trying to argue.

15     It's a different set of men.  I agree with him on that point.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             If Mr. McCloskey is quoting something, then he should also quote

19     the part where it says "until the cessation of fire."  "Do not register

20     them until the cessation of fire."  You cannot take things out of context

21     and quote just the portion -- some portions of the sentence and then skip

22     some others.  This is not here; there is no talk about any kind of

23     registration.  It's just the registration until the cessation of fire,

24     and it says that they should be actually guarded until the exchange.  So

25     I don't know why he didn't mention that.  Thank you.

Page 8295

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, Mr. McCloskey has quoted exactly

 2     this part.  That is on page 69, lines 5 to 8.  Mr. McCloskey has quoted

 3     there, and I quote:

 4             "Do not register persons who capture before cessation of fire and

 5     do not report them to international organisations."

 6             And he quoted the next sentence as well.

 7             Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             That is not the gist of my objection.  My objection is to the

10     question that was posed to the witness, where it wasn't said up until

11     what moment they were not to be registered.  There is -- that portion is

12     missing from the question, "up until the cessation of the fire."  The

13     question was that they were asked not to register the prisoners of war.

14     That was all that the question contained.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps this is a translation issue, I am afraid.

16     I think the meaning is absolutely the same:

17             "Do not register persons who captured -- you capture before

18     cessation of fire."

19             This is the official translation we see in the English version of

20     the B/C/S document, and Mr. McCloskey is not in a position to translate

21     it himself in a different way.

22             Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's why I read that paragraph out completely.

24     And so when I asked the question, it was clear, precisely, what I was

25     referring to, not leaving out any of it.  And I wanted to ask the

Page 8296

 1     witness, had he heard anything about not registering people.  We can

 2     debate forever on what "cessation of fire" means, and I have no problem

 3     if the general brings that apart -- brings that in re-cross.  "Cessation

 4     of fire" could be Dayton, it could be a lot of things.  He could bring

 5     that out in cross.  I don't have a problem with that.  I just would like

 6     to ask this witness if he had heard of anything like this.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead, please.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   Sir, did you hear of any orders about not registering people,

10     like this order or this -- sorry, before I say "order" -- before this --

11     as this document states?

12        A.   I neither heard nor received any orders that had anything to do

13     with prisoners.  And as I've already said earlier, that was not within my

14     competence, anyway.

15             Also, you claimed here that I said that the Red Cross was -- had

16     a constant presence at the detention facility, but I only said that the

17     Red Cross representatives could visit the detention facility whenever

18     they chose, which is not to mean that they were there all the time, every

19     single day.  All I was trying to say was that there was no -- there was

20     nothing to stop them from visiting the detention facility whenever they

21     wanted to.  That's what I was trying to say.

22        Q.   Have you heard Muslim complaints and testimony in other places

23     that they were in that prison in Rogatica for months, without seeing the

24     Red Cross, and were suffered to beatings and other abuses?  Have you

25     heard of that?

Page 8297

 1        A.   No, I did not nor did I have any contact with the Muslims.  And

 2     after the war, I met many of these one-time friends and we had coffee

 3     together or a chat, and never did any of them mention that they were

 4     mistreated at the prison.

 5        Q.   Did you meet Mr. Hajric and Mr. Imamovic and Mr. Palic after the

 6     war?

 7        A.   No, no.  I've already said -- and what I said about after the

 8     war, I meant my neighbours and my co-workers.  As for the people that you

 9     mentioned, they were neither my neighbours nor my co-workers, and I

10     didn't even know them before the war or ever.

11        Q.   Have you heard about the mass grave at Vragolovi, right near

12     Rogatica?

13        A.   I know where Vragolovi is.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, all of this actually

16     goes beyond the scope of my cross-examination, nor was it part of the

17     examination-in-chief.  So I don't know what foundation there is for this

18     line of questioning, because if the Prosecutor had wanted to raise these

19     issues, he could have done it during his examination-in-chief, but he did

20     not.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  I did not want to have to raise another

23     mass grave, but when he goes into and suggests that the ICRC was

24     constantly at or available to the prisoners at the Rogatica prison, I

25     certainly have a right to point out that three of those prisoners at the

Page 8298

 1     Rogatica prison were found -- where they were found.  And I won't say

 2     anything more.  But when he's suggesting the ICRC is involved in that, I

 3     certainly can contradict that and ask this person if he's ever heard of

 4     that or has knowledge of it, who, as you'll recall, agreed with him that

 5     the ICRC had access to it when they wanted to, as he reiterated is what

 6     he said in cross-examination, which I agree with him.  He did say that.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             I would request that my colleague quote the witness's words the

10     way he put them.  The witness said that the prisoners were always

11     accessible to the ICRS [as interpreted] representatives, not the other

12     way around.

13             Second, the witness knows nothing about the persons who were

14     killed, which is what the Prosecutor asked him about, and he has no

15     information as to where they were killed, and that was not the subject of

16     the examination at all.

17             Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I have the impression that the

19     last question is really far distinct of the line of questioning about a

20     detention unit, and if it wasn't open -- a so-called open facility, open

21     for visits of the Red Cross.  I think this is -- your last question,

22     taking into account what the witness testified about this prison, went

23     really beyond the scope of cross-examination.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll go on.  To

25     another subject, of course.

Page 8299

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's a good idea.

 2             May I, at this point in time, recall the decision of the Chamber

 3     of the 20th of August for leave to amend the witness list and to add this

 4     witness to the witness list.  That decision, on the request of the

 5     Prosecution, dealt with -- especially with Atlantida.  We received

 6     some -- that means we received an answer of the witness that he doesn't

 7     know anything about Atlantida, but I think the main issue of the

 8     testimony of this witness should relate to that, so that we are now

 9     shifting slightly away from that.  Perhaps you could focus on it.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think that's an important point, and I would

11     like to address that just briefly, Mr. President; of course, not in the

12     presence of the witness.

13             I have one more short document and a very short mention of your

14     concern that you've just talked about, so I think we can --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Please carry on.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to P00487.

17        Q.   And, sir, I think we'll all very clearly remember when

18     General Tolimir put up the report of an analyst, Bezruchenko, from the

19     OTP, that mentioned General Tolimir had said that Avdo Palic had provided

20     information after -- about where the minefields were.  And

21     General Tolimir's point to you was very clearly that this was not a

22     secret, this was open information, suggesting, I believe, that

23     Bezruchenko knew about it and that the -- it was not a secret.  But let's

24     look at this document that is cited, I believe, by Bezruchenko, or

25     certainly is right on point.  And it's a document that we see is the name

Page 8300

 1     of Major General Zdravko Polimir."  Can you tell me, did you ever hear of

 2     a Polimir, or is that another Zdravko, or is that just a typo, in your

 3     view?

 4        A.   I've never heard of Polimir, but I cannot comment on the rest.

 5        Q.   So you can comment on whether you think this is a typo,

 6     "General Major Zdravko Polimir."  Do you think that's a typo, or can't

 7     you comment?

 8        A.   What do you mean, whether it's a typo or not?

 9        Q.   Yes.

10        A.   Well, it's possible to go either way.  It could be a typo or

11     maybe not.

12        Q.   All right.  Well, let's look and see if this document -- you see

13     the document and the typed version.  Is this -- can you -- what kind of a

14     machine was this typed on?

15        A.   What type of typewriter?  What was the last thing you said?

16        Q.   Is this a teletype?

17        A.   Probably.

18        Q.   And when a teletype is sent out --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   -- from -- and this is actually, as we can see, from the Command

21     of the Rogatica Brigade, it goes out encrypted, doesn't it?

22        A.   That's how it should be.

23        Q.   And we look up in the left-hand corner, and where it says

24     "STR.POV," that means "Strictly Confidential Number"; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8301

 1        Q.   Is it fair to say that on 28 July 1995, when General Tolimir

 2     drafted this document and had it sent out, that this was a highly

 3     confidential document?

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if we're talking

 6     about documents, all wartime military documents have a designation

 7     "Strictly Confidential."

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY: [Previous translation continues]... explanations

 9     in front of the witness.  It's improper.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, I have to stop this conversation.

11             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I stopped you.  Sorry, I stopped you.  We

13     can't continue in that way, that everybody is interrupting the other.

14             Mr. Tolimir, if you want to raise an objection to the last

15     document, you should raise your objection, but not give a statement, not

16     give a statement, as you started to do on page 77, line 1 and 2.

17             What is your objection?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My objection is this:  This is an

19     inappropriate witness to be asked about whether a strictly confidential

20     document is accessible to a wider range of users or not based solely on

21     the "Strictly Confidential" indication there.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is not an objection with a

23     foundation.

24             Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 8302

 1        Q.   Sir, you're an assistant commander for a very important brigade

 2     in the Drina Corps.  Is this a confidential document?

 3        A.   For logistics.  Each of these documents, including my documents,

 4     where I was supposed to send meat or shoes or whatever supplies, they

 5     would all bear this indication "Strictly Confidential."

 6        Q.   And they were all strictly confidential, weren't they?

 7        A.   I beg your pardon?

 8        Q.   And they were very confidential military secret documents,

 9     weren't they?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I mean, would you want the enemy or the press to know that you

12     had received locations -- the exact locations of minefields in this

13     context?  It's pretty confidential stuff, isn't it?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

16             I have nothing further, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, when I raised the concern in

18     relation to the decision of the Chamber of the 20th of August in relation

19     to Atlantida, you would like to address something, but in the absence of

20     the witness.  Did I understand you correctly?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this

23     concludes your examination, your testimony today.  You are now free to

24     return to your normal activities.  The Chamber would like to thank you

25     for your attendance here and for the answers you were able to provide.

Page 8303

 1             Thank you very much, again, and the Court Usher will assist you

 2     to leave the courtroom and to go back.  Thank you very much.

 3             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7             I'm sure the Court -- and I think you made reference to it.  You

 8     will realise certain documents from what we have referred to as the

 9     Atlantida collection were coming in through evidence through

10     Mr. Blaszczyk, and there was a very strong objection to those documents

11     and their authenticity.  And that was the basis for our motion to add

12     this person on the witness list, because as you'll recall, Mr. Blaszczyk

13     said that he -- his name was on a couple of the documents, and he was the

14     assistant commander for logistics, and Mr. Blaszczyk felt that there was

15     a good chance he would know something about that and be able to help us

16     with that.

17             And then you also know, because of the motion for subpoena, that

18     we went to speak with him, and he chose not to speak with us.  And so he

19     received a court order and came here under a court order.

20             And as I mentioned before he started, he came here this morning

21     and was co-operative.  Mr. Blaszczyk had a chance to speak to him very

22     briefly as -- and then I spoke to him briefly afterward, and we learned

23     from him that he didn't know anything about Atlantida but was able to

24     provide information about some of the communications and other issues

25     related to the Vila and who was at the Vila, which we put in the proofing

Page 8304

 1     note and gave it to the Defence as soon as we got it.

 2             The problem that we are faced with, when we have a witness that

 3     refuses to speak to us, which is his right, the only place that I can ask

 4     that he be ordered to answer questions is in this courtroom, and much of

 5     what you saw was an interview of the witness on key points.  When he

 6     began speaking of cattle -- of taking cattle out of Zepa, I started

 7     asking him about the horse/pig farm from -- that we -- where we were all

 8     present, Sjemec.  All that -- that's my only way of taking a witness, an

 9     assistant commander for logistics -- there's very few assistant

10     commanders in a brigade.  These are key people, they have key knowledge,

11     and this was my chance to ask him questions about the key issues of the

12     case.  We got no objection on that, and I left it pretty limited within

13     the two hours, and I kept it to the key issues.  And I don't know -- it's

14     a new area for us, it's a new area for me.  It never happened before,

15     where I'm interviewing a witness, in effect, before you.  But I think the

16     truth-seeking part of this Tribunal allows that, as you did, and I

17     appreciate that.  But I completely understand your point, but I wanted

18     you to know the background, how it happened.

19             There should not be surprise in these cases, but sometimes when

20     you haven't had a chance to speak to someone, it's fair to ask the basic

21     crucial questions associated.

22             And, remember, Atlantida was a -- is filled with documents of all

23     the key issues of the case.  So if anything, that whole topic, even

24     though he says he doesn't know about it, is a pretty big topic.  So I

25     hope I didn't go out of bounds on that, but I certainly acknowledge it

Page 8305

 1     was an issue.

 2             And one last thing:  I apologise for interrupting like that,

 3     though when we start getting to key Main Staff witnesses and the general

 4     starts explaining, you know, his version of a document to the witness, as

 5     you know, that's just -- defeats the purpose of cross-examination.  And I

 6     wanted to let the general know, to represent this case correctly, I have

 7     to object to him doing that.  So I apologise for that ruckus, and I think

 8     you understand.  And I will hopefully not have to do that again, because

 9     I know you will not like it and I will not like it.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's accepted, Mr. McCloskey, and I appreciate

11     the additional information you were able to give to us about the

12     background of this witness.  And that will -- it's a kind of transparency

13     also for the Defence and for the Chamber.

14             Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sorry, we don't receive interpretation at the

17     moment.  I don't know what happened.  Please repeat.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said I'm not interrupting the

19     Prosecutor when he speaks, but I would appreciate it if he did not abuse

20     redirect examination.

21             In my cross, I did not say a word about Atlantida.  The

22     Prosecutor dealt with it in his examination-in-chief, and he got the

23     answers he got.

24             In future, I would appreciate it if questions in redirect would

25     not be used for introducing new topics beyond the scope of

Page 8306

 1     cross-examination.

 2             I'm trying to be fair to all the parties, and I think this

 3     process should be fair.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think after this exchange of positions, we all

 5     can agree that, up to now, the proceedings were, indeed, fair and

 6     co-operative, but sometimes there are issues in discussion, and this is

 7     not surprising, but we all should do our best to have a fair and

 8     expeditious trial.

 9             Thank you for your comments.  I think both parties and the

10     Chamber will do their utmost to have a good proceedings in the future

11     again.

12             We have to adjourn now.  It is late again, and I apologise, on

13     behalf of all participants, especially for the interpreters and the court

14     recorder and the other staff members for this delay.

15             We adjourn and resume tomorrow, in the afternoon, quarter past

16     two, in this courtroom.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.11 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of

19                           December, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.