101207ED

Page 8537

1 Tuesday, 7 December 2010

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

6 The witness should be brought in, please.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 WITNESS: MITAR LAZAREVIC [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. Please sit down.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Welcome back. I have to remind you that the

13 solemn declaration you made yesterday still applies. And Mr. Tolimir is

14 now commencing his cross-examination.

15 Mr. Tolimir.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good

17 morning to everyone. May God speed us on our way today and may God bless

18 us. I bid you all welcome back to the courtroom and may we have a

19 successful day.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, since we speak the same language I'll ask you a question

23 and please try to make a pause so we don't overlap in order to allow the

24 interpretation to proceed, and I'll try to do the same. Thank you.

25 My first question is from page 1 of the interview that you gave

Page 8538

1 to this Tribunal in Banja Luka on the 27th of June 2009, if you remember.

2 This is D336.

3 Could we please have that displayed in our e-court system.

4 1D336. Thank you, Aleksandar.

5 1D336. So that everyone can see what I'm basing my questions on.

6 We can't see that yet. All right, we have it in the English and

7 it's about to come up in our language too, the Serbian. Please look at

8 lines 19 through 21. What is discussed there is the status of a witness.

9 You handed over to the Prosecutor a summons which states that you are a

10 suspect. My question is: Were you under any sort of mental duress when

11 you received a summons as a suspect since you know as a fact that you did

12 not commit any crimes for which you might be prosecuted by this

13 international tribunal?

14 A. I was under no pressure at all. We've clarified that already. I

15 asked them when I came there, they said it was a mistake. I do remember

16 that.

17 Q. I know you tried to clarify that point during the interview but

18 what about since?

19 A. No. I have no reason to feel any sort of pressure at all because

20 my conscience is clear.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Can we please go to page 3 of the

22 interview, line 26. Page 3, line 26. In the English, it should be page

23 4.

24 At line 26, you say, "I was a general administrator." Do you see

25 that?

Page 8539

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In that position, did you have an overview over the mail being

3 exchanged by the brigade or the codes being used and things like that?

4 A. Yes. That would most often be the case, but it was by no means a

5 rule as such.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Perhaps we didn't understand each other

7 properly. I was asking whether an administrator like that would have an

8 insight into the mail being exchanged between the brigade and the

9 battalion, codes and such.

10 A. I said yesterday that all the members of the brigade had an

11 insight into all the mail that was coming from the brigade to the

12 battalion, and that included me.

13 Q. What about any written documents that were mailed to you?

14 A. That sort of thing would normally be opened by the commander, not

15 us. Nevertheless, whatever came by phone we would normally get to look

16 at it. As a rule, there were no special secrets that were kept from us.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before Mr. Vanderpuye gets the floor I would like

18 to remind both speakers to slow down and not to overlap. You are

19 starting with your answers immediately after you have heard the question

20 of Mr. Tolimir, but the interpreters must catch everything what you are

21 saying and what Mr. Tolimir is saying. Please pause a little bit between

22 question and answer.

23 Mr. Vanderpuye.

24 THE WITNESS: Fine, thank you.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you

Page 8540

1 and Your Honours and everyone. I think there is a -- maybe we can have

2 the witness clarify this. At page 3, line 8, his answer to General

3 Tolimir's question was that, "All members of the brigade had an insight

4 into all of the mail that was coming from the brigade to the battalion,

5 and that included me." I just wanted to make sure that his reference to

6 the insight that was had by brigade members is what he intended to say,

7 as opposed to battalion members. So maybe we can have that clarified for

8 the record.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you have heard what the Prosecutor has said.

10 Could you clarify your answer, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of the battalion. Perhaps

12 I misspoke and said brigade. The members of the battalion command saw

13 all the telegrams that were being received.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Tolimir.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

16 Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye. For the record, my question was: A

17 general administrator, such as the witness, would a person in that

18 position normally look at all the mail being exchanged between the

19 brigade and the battalion? General administrator. That was my question.

20 A person in his position and not any members of that unit.

21 A. I might --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: One speaker at a time,

23 please. Thank you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] E-court, please, page 5 of your

25 statement, sir. Can you please look at line 20, page 5. Page 7 in the

Page 8541

1 English, please.

2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You say at line 20:

4 "In July 1995, the line shifted and there were some movements in

5 July, movements of our battalion because there was this column of people

6 coming from Srebrenica, so engagement of the battalion was 100 per cent."

7 That's lines 21 and 22 of your statement. Based on what you said

8 there, my question: Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what sort of

9 movement was at stake. How was the line moved? And what about stepping

10 up engagement up to 100 per cent, what was behind that?

11 A. I know that some of the people were operating on the ground and

12 that those other men came out and were to protect that area. As far as

13 we were concerned. I don't know what areas this was in relation to. I

14 know that the presence along the line of those mobilised in the battalion

15 was 100 per cent, and that's about that.

16 Q. Thank you very much. You said, "I don't know which area they

17 were going to, and so on and so forth." Please, for the record, when you

18 say I don't know which line they were off to, who, where, who was going

19 through these defence lines and why was combat readiness stepped up?

20 Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber a little bit, because they

21 weren't there, they were not there in the middle of the war, like you and

22 me. Thank you very much.

23 A. This column leaving Srebrenica and then they were securing all

24 these settled areas so they could pass through them, they were protecting

25 certain areas towards the rear of the area, all the villages that were

Page 8542

1 there, and that was about that.

2 Q. Thank you very much but I do have to apologise yet again. Thank

3 you very much, Mr. Interpreter.

4 Again, I have to ask you those leaving Srebrenica were securing

5 these villages. We have to try to distinguish here who was doing the

6 securing and who was leaving Srebrenica. We need to draw some sort of

7 distinction there. Who was leaving Srebrenica, can you tell us that?

8 Which unit did those men belong to and who was securing the villages and

9 settlements along the way? Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I stopped you because you started too early. It

11 is very difficult for the interpreters today. You are both very fast and

12 you should slow down and pause between both speakers. Your answer,

13 please.

14 THE WITNESS: The villages and the rear area, that was the VRS

15 and the rest the army and the people from Srebrenica, the people who

16 lived in Srebrenica, and the VRS were securing our villages that were in

17 our territory.

18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you very much. You said they were leaving Srebrenica. Did

20 they come under attack or were they attacking the villages that you, the

21 men of the Zvornik Brigade, were defending? Thank you very much.

22 Please can you wait up a little bit before you provide your

23 answer. Thank you very much. Look at the screen before you, look at the

24 transcript, and once it's done, once it stops rolling, you can start

25 answering the question.

Page 8543

1 A. I wasn't there to know myself who was attacking whom. There was

2 firing on both sides, but I wasn't there myself to be able to tell you

3 what exactly went on.

4 Q. Thank you very much. I don't know if you have the transcript in

5 front of you. As soon as the transcript stops, please start answering

6 your question, but wait for the transcript, for the letters, to stop.

7 Again I have to ask you the same question because of the record.

8 Why did your brigade step up its combat readiness, and what about

9 the people -- you called them people -- were they free to leave

10 Srebrenica or were there some special circumstances there under which

11 these people were leaving as well as their army? Thank you.

12 A. We all know there was fighting inside Srebrenica and they had to

13 get out somehow. How were they getting out? Of course, there was firing

14 along the way on their way out. It wasn't a peaceful situation, there

15 was firing all over, but again I'm telling you I wasn't there myself,

16 therefore I'm unable to judge the situation.

17 Q. Thank you. That wasn't my question, really, was it? You said

18 people were leaving. Can you please explain to the Chamber how exactly

19 people were leaving. And now you've answered. It wasn't some sort of

20 free passage or free movement by the civilians and the people leaving.

21 It was a column trying to get through across your territory, and did that

22 column include both civilians and soldiers? And when I say "soldiers"

23 I mean armed Muslim soldiers.

24 A. Not in our area of responsibility. Not in the area covered by my

25 battalion.

Page 8544

1 Q. What about the area of responsibility of your brigade? Were

2 these Muslim armed forces trying to achieve a breakthrough along with the

3 civilian population coming along across the area of responsibility of

4 your brigade?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you will have seen that now the question has

7 stopped, but your answer was long time ago. This is not possible to

8 catch that by the interpreters, and for the sake of the record it is

9 necessary to pause. Please wait -- I appreciate that you want to tell

10 everything you know, but please slow down.

11 THE WITNESS: Okay.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Please, sir, can you please tell the Trial Chamber what this was

16 all about and what was it that was passing through the area of

17 responsibility of your brigade, and why did your commanders order you to

18 step up your combat readiness up to the 100 per cent level?

19 A. Probably the consequences of the attacks coming from the other

20 side and that's probably why the order came to mobilise 100 per cent.

21 You're asking me some questions. I can't answer all these questions,

22 I wasn't a commander myself.

23 Q. Thank you very much. I understand why you're answering the way

24 you are, but when you say "the other side" what that means to the Trial

25 Chamber, "the other side," maybe you're talking about the cardinal points

Page 8545

1 as long as you're not specific. Who was this other side?

2 A. The Muslim army. That's what I mean when I said "the other

3 side."

4 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, what about the members of your

5 battalion? Did they have any contact whatsoever with the Muslim column

6 trying to achieve a breakthrough across the territory that was also the

7 area of responsibility of your brigade? Thank you very much.

8 A. My battalion had no contact. As for the brigade, I don't know.

9 Q. Thank you very much. We will move on, given the nature of your

10 answers. I never asked you anything about the brigade, did I? Can you

11 please go to page 6 of your statement, line 27. Page 6, line 27, thank

12 you.

13 This is page 9 in the English. Thank you.

14 Thank you very much. I'll read this, if you can see it. Lines

15 27 and 28. You say there existed a telephone link and some couriers were

16 bringing orders. My question to you, based on what we can see here: Did

17 you receive most of your orders by phone? Was it an uncoded conversation

18 or was it an encrypted conversation? Was this a protected line or not?

19 Thank you very much. And please wait for the transcript to stop.

20 A. Orders would come by the induction telephone line most often.

21 Rarely they arrived as coded messages.

22 Q. Thank you. Since we are talking about telephone connections and

23 induction telephone lines, could you please explain, were those wire

24 lines? So that the Trial Chamber knows what you're talking about. Did

25 you have a wire telephone line with the brigade command where your orders

Page 8546

1 came from or did you have a radio connection with them? Thank you.

2 A. It was a wire connection. We also had a radio communication

3 line, but we used it only very rarely.

4 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber, when you say coded

5 messages, because you used the word "coded," would you say that codes

6 were only used in teletyped messages or are codes any figures and symbols

7 used in any communication? Thank you.

8 A. As far as I know, the very rare coded telegrams, save for the one

9 that arrived in 1995, I don't know anything about codes. I know that

10 signalsmen or, rather, a signalsman came to decode that message. I was

11 not able to do it; I don't know anything about code system.

12 Q. Thank you. You've just told us that the telegram was coded by

13 signalsmen. Were they members of your battalion, of your brigade, or

14 were they borrowed from somewhere else to decode the telegram? Thank

15 you. Please wait for the transcript to stop.

16 A. They were from our battalion. Nobody else arrived from anywhere

17 else. Our own men came to decode the message.

18 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that they knew how to decipher the

19 code, that they had that from before? Thank you. Please wait for the

20 transcript before you start giving your answer.

21 A. I cannot tell you what the system was, what system was in place

22 for decoding messages.

23 Q. Thank you. How long did it take the signalsman to decode the

24 message? Do you know that? Are you aware of that fact? Thank you.

25 A. I really don't know. I can't remember.

Page 8547

1 Q. Thank you. Look at lines 7 and 14 on page 7 in the Serbian

2 version, which is page 10 in the English version. Thank you. The

3 Prosecutor asked you about your combat readiness. That's in line 7. And

4 then in line 14, you said, "Yes, we were prepared for a possible attack

5 from the other side. What do I know?" So what did you mean when you

6 say, "The other side"? And what did you mean when you said, "What do I

7 know?" We can't leave the Trial Chamber in the dark about anything that

8 you said. Please wait for the transcript to stop before giving your

9 answer. Thank you.

10 A. I suppose we were expecting an attack from the Muslim side.

11 I suppose that our commanders knew what they were doing. Please do not

12 ask me questions that only a brigade commander can answer. I suppose

13 that they were expecting an attack to come from the Muslim side and

14 that's why they stepped up our combat readiness to full readiness, to 100

15 per cent combat readiness.

16 Q. Thank you. Please do not be angry. I'm not asking you any

17 personal questions. Whatever I ask you are things that need to be

18 clarified for the transcript. I'm not trying to trick you and ask you

19 questions that you're not in a position to answer. And I apologise if

20 you misunderstood my intentions.

21 Could we please display page 8 in your statement, which is page

22 12 in English. Lines 22 and 32. Please look at the lines in question,

23 line 22 and line 32. In order to avoid reading the entire statement, I

24 have only chosen some characteristic lines on which I'm going to base my

25 questions. You say in line 22, "I believe that that was in the afternoon

Page 8548

1 and I know that he came back in the evening and told us all that." And

2 then in line 32, you say, "That was the gym of the elementary school."

3 Please, can you tell us for the record, who was it who came? Because

4 your subject in the sentence is missing. And then you said, "He told

5 us." You did already say something about that in the cross-examination,

6 but could you now tell us what that person said, who was there to listen

7 to him, and was the entire battalion command there to listen to that

8 story? Thank you.

9 A. That was our commander, Srecko Acimovic, and he addressed the

10 entire command staff in the evening when he arrived.

11 Q. Thank you for your explanation. During the examination-in-chief

12 yesterday, the Prosecutor showed you some photos, and he showed you photo

13 number 2 on page 121. As he explained, that was the second photo of the

14 gym of the elementary school that you had attended, and you said that you

15 had never entered the small building next to the gym and that that small

16 building was probably used as a changing room, as lockers for the kids

17 who attended the school. Do you remember that?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Thank you. My question is this: At the relevant time, were you

20 in the gym about which Mr. Vanderpuye asked you yesterday? Thank you.

21 Please wait for the transcript to stop.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you. Here you -- on page 10 in the Serbian version of your

24 statement, which is page 14 in English, in line 30, you resumed this

25 statement, and the Prosecutor told you, and this is on page 15 in

Page 8549

1 English, I apologise to everybody -- thank you, Aleksandar, for

2 correcting me -- and while we are waiting for that, I believe you all see

3 it now, the Prosecutor says, "We continue our interview with

4 Mr. Lazarevic and during the break we spent --" thank you -- "during the

5 break -- we spent a few minutes during the break just discussing general

6 issues with the witness and we told him why he had been invited to come

7 here today, and also we invited questions from him."

8 And then we move on to the following page, which is 16 in

9 English -- thank you, Aleksandar -- and the investigator says here, "The

10 witness was wondering why there was the low level people and not the high

11 level people that we were interested in." There was no discussion about

12 his particular evidence.

13 Thank you. In view of this, I would like to know the following:

14 You had several other breaks, did you not? Did you use those breaks to

15 discuss your concerns and issues that were of some interest to you? Did

16 the investigators encourage you to raise those concerns during the

17 breaks? Thank you.

18 A. No. There was nothing. That was right at the end, when I said

19 to this gentleman, the investigator, that there was no justice. First of

20 all we were mobilised to go to war, and now you are investigating me

21 here, you're interviewing me here, so there is no justice in this world.

22 That's what I said to the investigator.

23 Q. I apologise. Yesterday, during the examination-in-chief, you

24 answered several questions put to you by Mr. Vanderpuye and you told us

25 that your commander disobeyed the order and wouldn't assign any of your

Page 8550

1 men to execute men who were detained in the elementary school of the

2 village where he resided. Now my question: Did anybody from your

3 battalion command have to face charges for disobeying an order which was

4 contrary to rules and prevalent laws? Thank you. Please wait for the

5 transcript to stop.

6 A. No. Nobody was ever in a position to face charges because of

7 that.

8 Q. Thank you. Please answer the following question: Since you have

9 mostly related things that you heard from others, since you personally

10 did not participate in any of the events, my question is this: Is your

11 evidence second-hand evidence and do you know -- well, first answer that,

12 and please wait for the transcript to stop before giving your answer.

13 Thank you.

14 A. I told you what I heard from my commander, but I believe that the

15 essence of my evidence are the telegrams that arrived in the brigade when

16 I was there. This is what I am here for, in my view.

17 Q. Thank you. My question is this: Did you personally see the

18 telegram that you are testifying about? Thank you. And do you know who

19 recorded the telegram in the logbook?

20 A. I've already said that I don't know who had received the

21 telegram. It may have been me. But we were all present while the lads

22 were decoding it, and everybody was wondering about its content. So

23 everybody knew about the telegram.

24 Q. Thank you. Could you now tell me and the Trial Chamber: Do you

25 know whether your commander, battalion commander, testified? And if not,

Page 8551

1 do you know if he's ever going to come here to testify about the same

2 events you are testifying about? If you don't know, you can just simply

3 say that you don't know.

4 A. I know that he was here once. I don't know whether he will be

5 called to testify again. I don't know.

6 Q. Thank you for the answers that you have provided. Thank you

7 about the information provided about your commander. I hope that he will

8 come to testify in these proceedings so we will have questions for you

9 [as interpreted]. Thank you very much for coming here today to clarify

10 things that I was not clear about, neither me nor the OTP nor the Trial

11 Chamber. God bless.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was my

13 cross-examination. I would like to thank you, thank everybody who have

14 been following, and I apologise on my part and on the part of the witness

15 because the two of us have been speaking very fast. Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. It was indeed a very hard

17 morning for the interpreters and the Court Recorder. Thank you for the

18 assistance.

19 Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President, I'm sure you'll be relieved

21 to know what I don't. I would point out, though, in respect of General

22 Tolimir's question that the commander of the 2nd Battalion is on our

23 witness list. He's a 92 bis with cross witness and we do expect to have

24 him available for the Trial Chamber to hear evidence from him.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this information.

Page 8559

1 and 1197, the witness's testimony in the Popovic trial, the former

2 exhibit being under seal.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These documents will be received as exhibits.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour for the record, I'd like to indicate

5 that P1196 shall be admitted as Exhibit P1443, under seal, and P1197

6 shall be admitted as Exhibit P1444, under seal. Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we have a problem to understand. Have

8 these documents been preliminarily MFI'd at a former stage of these

9 proceedings?

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic? I see you want to assist us.

12 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Indeed. Good morning to all.

13 Mr. President, I'm looking at our e-court and I see that the numbers have

14 been MFI'd. Mr. Thayer also gave us the corresponding P number and not

15 the corresponding 65 ter number. I think that might lead to some

16 confusion, if we were to renumerate, to assign new numbers to these

17 exhibits. One thing that I find particularly confusing, and perhaps

18 someone can clear that up for me: Why are the smaller numbers being

19 transformed into bigger numbers? Because there might be a void that

20 would require filling at a later stage. I fail to understand the

21 situation, I'm afraid. It might be a good idea to keep the numbers that

22 have been used for the MFI'ing of these exhibits.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, that would be the position of the Chamber

24 as well.

25 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I was under the impression that for

Page 8560

1 the witnesses for whom we have gone through the labourious process among

2 all the parties of submitting the exhibit list and having the P numbers

3 assigned, we would retain those until those witnesses are exhausted. So

4 P1196 is formerly 65 ter number 6738. P1197 is formerly 65 ter number

5 6739. And indeed, they have been both been MFI'd, according to our prior

6 procedure, that I think we are escaping shortly.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem was that I didn't have this list of

8 MFI numbers in front of me, and indeed both exhibits should be received

9 and will be received with the numbers 1197 and 1196, and I think the

10 first one is under seal -- the second one is under seal. 1196. Mr.

11 Registrar, please?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. For the record, I would like

13 to indicate that the previous numbers given to P1196 and 1197, which is

14 P1443 and 1444, is hereby withdrawn and P1196 is admitted under seal

15 while P1197 is also admitted under the same number. Thank you, Your

16 Honours.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think now we have it clear on the record.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Thayer.

19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution would

20 also tender -- Mr. President, maybe I could benefit from a little bit of

21 guidance from the Court. Does Your Honour have the Registrar's internal

22 memorandum for the old regime? Because I'll be working with that list,

23 hopefully that will assist the Trial Chamber in seeing what our exhibits

24 precisely are, and if I can hand my copy up to the court officer --

25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 8561

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just wait a moment. We hope to clarify the

2 situation. Now I have it in front of me and I think we can proceed as

3 usual. As you will have realised, on a request by the Registry, we

4 changed the system a bit and hopefully -- hopefully with -- to the

5 benefit of both parties and the Chamber and especially the Registry, to

6 avoid complications. Before you are tendering these documents,

7 Mr. Thayer, could you indicate if they are all on the 65 ter exhibit

8 list?

9 MR. THAYER: I think they all are with the exception of two,

10 Mr. President. Actually, sorry, please, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your previous list, you added a star to the 65

12 ter number 06745 and 65 ter 06747. Usually -- and to three others at the

13 end, two others at the end of the list. That was normally an indication

14 that they were not included into the 65 ter exhibit list but now I was

15 told that 65 ter 06740 and 06746 are not on the 65 ter list.

16 MR. THAYER: That's right, Mr. President. What the asterisk

17 typically denoted were exhibits which were part of the original 92 bis

18 package. And during this whole process of numbering, we found additional

19 exhibits that needed to be put on the exhibit list for the witness, and

20 that's what the asterisk is.

21 As to your first question, which documents were not on the 65 ter

22 list, basically the documents that are the 6700 series on this list were

23 not on the 65 ter list. These are documents that were primarily Defence

24 exhibits that were shown to the witness during his cross-examination. So

25 they were made part of the 92 bis package, as I think everyone is aware,

Page 8562

1 but typically they would not be added wholesale to the 65 ter list

2 because they were part of the 92 bis package, so frequently those

3 exhibits we waited until the decision of the Trial Chamber before

4 assigning them 65 ter numbers. So we can see that there are a number of

5 exhibits here beginning with, if we just look at the list, 6740,

6 6741, -2, -3, -4, -5, -6, -7, 6749, 6750, and I think that is the total

7 of the exhibits which weren't on the 65 ter list, so per our usual

8 procedure we would move orally to add them to the 65 ter list given their

9 integral part of the prior record being primarily Defence exhibits shown

10 to the witness during his examination.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, is there any concern on the part of

12 the Defence?

13 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I have just checked the documents we

14 are talking about and I have no concerns to raise.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, they will be added to the 65

16 ter exhibit list. And I'm referring to those Mr. Thayer has mentioned on

17 page 25 of today's transcript.

18 Mr. Thayer?

19 MR. THAYER: Now, Mr. President, working with the P numbers that

20 are on the list, if I could, that will save a little bit of time. I

21 don't know if the Registrar needs me to read out the actual 65 ter

22 numbers.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please don't do that, to save some time.

24 MR. THAYER: Good. Thank you, Mr. President. Then the

25 Prosecution would tender P1198 to P1208.

Page 8563

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These are all documents used with this witness in

2 the -- and admitted in the Popovic case?

3 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received with these numbers.

5 MR. THAYER: The Prosecution will withdraw its tender of P01209,

6 which is 65 ter 6745. That is, frankly, mooted by the witness's presence

7 now. This was a stipulation that was entered into between one of the

8 accused's Defence teams in the Popovic trial. After the close of

9 evidence, there was a technical issue concerning a document that I will

10 be spending some time with Colonel Trivic on, and rather than opening up

11 both the Defence and the Prosecution cases in that case, we simply

12 arrived at a stipulation which I think will, frankly, be mooted by the

13 witness's testimony, so we would withdraw that particular exhibit.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic?

15 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Thayer beat me to

16 the punch. I was about to raise the issue myself. As far as the exhibit

17 that has been MFI'd P1208 [as interpreted], this was stipulated in a

18 previous case between the OTP and the Defence. P1209. Could that be

19 stricken from the record, then, please.

20 May I just put forward the position of our Defence? We shall

21 always be raising objections whenever a document is being tendered into

22 evidence from a previous case, a previous trial. Thank you.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not sure if I understood you correctly,

24 Mr. Gajic. Please help me. You have mentioned P1208. Did you misspeak

25 or what is -- what was it about?

Page 8564

1 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, P1209. I'm not sure

2 if I misspoke or it was misrecorded. Mr. Tolimir claims that I said

3 1209.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Then we have it clear on the record.

5 I take it that you don't object that the Prosecution is

6 withdrawing this document from the list.

7 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I absolutely agree that that should

8 be withdrawn.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This request is granted.

10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would additionally

11 tender P1210 to P1223.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received with these numbers.

13 MR. THAYER: And we will also move to withdraw P1224, which is 65

14 ter 6747, the document that was not included in the 92 bis package. It

15 was only a very brief portion, as it turns out, was read to the witness,

16 and I don't think, given the Trial Chamber's practice of requiring us to

17 use the document somehow with the witness, I'd rather just save some

18 court time and withdraw that exhibit. The pertinent part, as I said, is

19 in the record, it was read to the witness, and I don't think we need to

20 go through any motions to admit the document itself.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There is no need to decide about that at the

22 moment. Mr. Gajic?

23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I remember

24 correctly, and I don't have a specific reference at hand, the document

25 that Mr. Thayer is addressing was used in the Popovic case with a

Page 8565

1 witness. I believe that deserves to be admitted. This is P1224, unless

2 I'm mistaken.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was admitted in the Popovic case through

4 another witness, not with the current witness. There is no need to

5 discuss this at the moment. Please carry on.

6 MR. THAYER: And Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender

7 P1225 to 1226.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was expecting this problem. Mr. Thayer,

9 pursuant to our Rules and the procedure in this trial, we should see if

10 you are dealing with that with this witness. Because it was not used

11 with this -- and admitted, especially not admitted, through this witness

12 in the Popovic case.

13 MR. THAYER: I apologise, Mr. President. I confused this

14 category with the other categories. You can see we have a number of

15 primarily Defence exhibits which were shown to this witness in the

16 Popovic trial but which were admitted through other witnesses. They are,

17 as I said, primarily Defence witness -- Defence exhibits. I do think,

18 for the sake of Your Honours' ability to fully have the record before

19 you, and the documents, they should be admitted. Again, he was shown

20 each of those documents, questioned on them by Defence counsel, and in

21 some cases by the Prosecution. In this case, I would ask the Trial

22 Chamber to permit the admission of these documents without having to use

23 each one of them with the witness. Or, in the alternative, to maintain

24 them in MFI status so that the Trial Chamber can refer to them at its

25 leisure in the future. But it will entail a substantial repetition of

Page 8566

1 the witness's prior testimony to have to use these documents individually

2 in order to have them admitted under the current procedure.

3 In the alternative, I suppose I could just pop them up on e-court

4 and ask him if he remembers seeing it in the Popovic case, and if that

5 suffices for the Trial Chamber, that will expedite matters somewhat as

6 opposed to engaging in a substantive discussion with him about each

7 document.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, your position is clear. We will come

9 back to that later. We have time enough with this witness to make a

10 finding. Please go ahead.

11 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 The Prosecution would similarly tender in this category, given --

13 recognising our colloquy, 1227A through D, 1228A through C, 1229A and C,

14 and 1230 to 1232, and that constitutes the remainder of the documents in

15 that category.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The position of the Chamber is the same. Go

17 ahead, please.

18 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I would just note a couple of

19 corrections to the transcript and to our exhibit list just so there is no

20 confusion. The first is with respect to P1227C, an intercept used by one

21 of the Defence teams, the time is 6 -- 0658 hours, not 0656 hours. The

22 same goes for the next exhibit, P1227D. It is the same conversation but

23 I think, as the Trial Chamber will recall, occasionally different

24 intercept operators were a minute or two off, and that explains the

25 difference here.

Page 8567

1 Similarly, with respect to P1228B, the time of that intercept is

2 0755 hours, not 0748 hours.

3 I'd also like to note that in the transcript there was an

4 incorrect exhibit number called out by Defence counsel for General

5 Pandurevic, and this is at transcript page 1196. There is a reference to

6 Exhibit 7D425, and that exhibit is actually 7D550, which is the exhibit

7 listed on our exhibit list. Defence counsel simply mixed up his numbers

8 but it's clearly referring to 7D550, and that, in this case, is P1207.

9 And lastly, we have a -- as an exhibit, P94, the book of

10 photographs from Mr. Ruez. The relevant page number for this Trial

11 Chamber's purposes is page 250. The pagination changed just a little bit

12 between the Popovic version and the version that's before the Trial

13 Chamber.

14 Mr. President, I think I've got enough time to read the 92 ter

15 summary before the break.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please go ahead.

17 MR. THAYER: In July 1995, the witness was serving as the

18 commander of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, based in Sokolac. He

19 retired from the VRS with the rank of Colonel in 2002.

20 Prior to the Srebrenica operation in July 1995, he received a

21 preparatory order from the Drina Corps commander, General Zivanovic,

22 according to which the witness pulled approximately 200 men from his

23 brigade's battalions to form a combat group for the operation.

24 His combat group also included a tank platoon and a mortar

25 platoon. His combat group arrived in the Zeleni Jadar area on 5 July,

Page 8568

1 and the witness reported first to the command of the Bratunac Brigade and

2 then to an observation point near the Drina Corps forward command post as

3 Pribicevac. At this observation point General Krstic issued instructions

4 to the witness and the other brigade commanders regarding the Krivaja 95

5 operation. In addition, Drina Corps intelligence officer Lieutenant

6 Colonel Kosoric, per customary procedure, briefed them about the

7 estimates of the enemy's strength and deployment.

8 The witness testified that the main objective of the Krivaja 95

9 operation was to separate and narrow the size of the protected areas of

10 Srebrenica and Zepa, in view of the sabotage and terrorist actions from

11 them. The witness said that he was not aware of any plan or operation

12 directed by the VRS to cut off the resupply of DutchBat and to restrict

13 the inflow of humanitarian aid to the Srebrenica enclave. The witness

14 further testified that the VRS forces participating in the Krivaja 95

15 operation were supposed to avoid conflicts with the UN personnel at their

16 check-points and that the target of the operation was not the UN, the

17 town of Srebrenica itself, or the population.

18 The witness's command post during the Krivaja 95 operation was in

19 the village of Jasenova, where he slept each night during the operation.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I? I believe that the

21 interpreter has not interpreted you correctly, and as I'm looking at the

22 transcript, I'm looking at the part where you were talking about the

23 objective of the operation. The witness says, and so on and so forth,

24 that operation 1995 was not targeted at the United Nations but the

25 population of Srebrenica. I believe that's what I heard in the

Page 8569

1 interpretation. So could you please repeat that portion in order for the

2 interpreter to repeat the interpretation of that portion.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?

4 MR. THAYER: I'll pick up with that sentence, Mr. President.

5 The witness testified that the VRS forces participating in the

6 Krivaja 95 operation were supposed to avoid any conflicts with the UN

7 personnel at their check-points and that the target of the operation was

8 not the UN, the town of Srebrenica itself, or the population.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Much better. That was actually now

10 correct. The first time round, the interpreter used a wrong word which

11 gave a totally different meaning. At least, that's how I understood it

12 in the interpretation.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To avoid any misinterpretation, Mr. Thayer, you

14 are saying in your summary that the target was not the UN, and it was not

15 the town of Srebrenica itself, or the population of Srebrenica.

16 MR. THAYER: Correct, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It could be understood in a different way,

18 indeed. Please carry on.

19 MR. THAYER: The witness's command post during the Krivaja 95

20 operation was in the village of Jasenova, where he slept each night

21 during the operation. He described the activities and movement of his

22 forces between 6 and 11 July 1995 as they headed in a northerly direction

23 towards Srebrenica with forces from the Zvornik Brigade's Drina Wolves on

24 his right and forces from the Birac Brigade on his left. He identified

25 himself in video footage of VRS forces as they approached, then entered

Page 8570

1 Srebrenica town. He testified that his unit did not fire upon the town

2 of Srebrenica and that he did not observe, notice, or hear of any other

3 units firing upon the town itself, nor did he observe any artillery

4 damage to the town when he entered it. He further testified that the

5 people who went to the UN base in Potocari did so of their own will, and

6 that when General Mladic offered the Muslim population a choice of

7 whether to stay or leave, they decided to evacuate themselves from

8 Srebrenica.

9 In the morning of 12 July, at the location in Bojna near a TV

10 repeater, he was given the assignment to move toward the Jahorina feature

11 via the village of Vijogor. At Vijogor that afternoon, General Krstic

12 ordered him to report to the Bratunac Brigade command post for a meeting

13 at 2100 hours that evening. He arrived at that meeting on time, having

14 passed through Potocari en route and seeing crowds of people there.

15 About an hour later General Mladic arrived, congratulated them, and gave

16 Krstic the order to prepare for an operation against Zepa. Orders were

17 also given to Drina Corps units, in cooperation with the MUP, to secure

18 the road from Srebrenica towards Vlasenica via Bratunac. The

19 intelligence they had at the time indicated that several thousand members

20 of the 28th Division were attempting to cross through VRS-held territory

21 to reach ABiH-held territory. Also during this meeting, Pandurevic

22 suggested that the troops be rested and replaced, but Mladic overruled

23 him. However, Mladic agreed to address the troops the next morning, 13

24 July, before they moved to Zepa.

25 Mr. President, I see we are slightly over the time for the break.

Page 8571

1 I have three more paragraphs to read and I can interrupt the summary.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should conclude that and we have the break a

3 little bit later.

4 MR. THAYER: Okay.

5 The witness testified that he does not recall any mention during

6 this meeting of what the procedure would be if any military-aged men were

7 captured or surrendered to VRS forces. He stated that he was not aware,

8 at the time of this meeting, that Muslim men had been separated from

9 their families that day in Potocari, nor did he receive any information

10 that there may have been as many as a thousand military-aged men in

11 Potocari. He further testified that there was no discussion at this

12 meeting about placing captured or surrendered Muslim men in detention

13 locations in and around Bratunac, nor was there any mention of a decision

14 to kill all the men of military age. Following the meeting, the officers

15 present were served an organised dinner in the Bratunac Brigade command

16 building.

17 In the morning of 13 July, Generals Mladic and Krstic addressed

18 the witness's troops to motivate them for the impending Zepa operation,

19 after which Krstic ordered the witness and his forces to be in the

20 village of Krivace in Zepa by 1900 hours that day. The witness again --

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should slow down a bit, I think, for the sake

22 of the interpreters.

23 MR. THAYER: Will do, Mr. President.

24 The witness again travelled through Potocari en route to Zepa and

25 observed people being loaded onto vehicles. He passed by the football

Page 8573

1 because you know since 21st -- 24th of February this year the course the

2 Chamber will take, that for those documents not admitted through the

3 witness, it is necessary to show that they are an indispensable part of

4 the testimony in the prior case, and there must be a certain showing to

5 be able to accept that. There is no need to go into details because we

6 have dealt with that several times, and the Chamber is in a certain way

7 surprised that this problem arises now again.

8 Mr. Thayer, please carry on with your examination-in-chief.

9 MR. THAYER:

10 Q. Good morning again, sir.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. I noted that while I was finishing up your summary, you were

13 taking some notes and I just wanted to make sure that you didn't hear

14 anything that you thought was incorrect or that needed clarification. So

15 before I go on to my next series of questions, I just wanted to give you

16 the opportunity, in case there was something. If not, then that's fine.

17 I'll just proceed.

18 A. Thank you. Yes, I would like to say something. Not because

19 things were incorrect but because of some terms, two or three terms,

20 which are disputable. The first one was that there was no fire opened on

21 Srebrenica, and that's something that I didn't use. When you say fire

22 being open, it can be construed as a game. As a soldier, I conclude that

23 there were no operations targeting Srebrenica.

24 The second term that was used was something that contained the

25 word "artillery destruction" or something to that effect. Maybe it would

Page 8574

1 be better to use there was no destruction in town. There were no

2 destroyed facilities. That's what I said in my statement.

3 And the third term that was used by yourself, I may have used it

4 myself in answering your questions in my previous testimony, concerned

5 the football pitch in Nova Kasaba. You used the term there were

6 "detainees" who were sitting in the football pitch, and I believe that a

7 better term to use, or something that I would use. Was "disarmed enemy

8 troops," because those were not people from Potocari, those who had

9 surrendered. Those were disarmed troops that were on their way to link

10 up with the BiH army. In the meantime, they were prevented from doing

11 that by men who disarmed them and who confined them in an area where they

12 would be confined until further proceedings.

13 That's the remarks I wanted to share with you, and I'd like to

14 say that the rest of what you have read out was pretty much correct.

15 Q. Okay, Colonel. We'll perhaps get to some of those issues in a

16 little while. Let me begin by showing you a couple of maps.

17 MR. THAYER: If we could have P104, please. And if we could go

18 to page 12 first.

19 Q. I can tell you, Colonel, in a moment we'll look at a portion of

20 this map a little closer. What I wanted to do was start with this map,

21 which obviously is a slightly larger view. Take a moment, if you would,

22 and see if you can acquaint yourself, reacquaint yourself, with some of

23 these locations as they are marked here and just moving from left to

24 right. I would just draw your attention to where the map indicates the

25 Jela restaurant, the 65th Protection Regiment base, the command post of

Page 8575

1 the VRS's Main Staff, and then moving from north to south, the Krivace

2 forward command post, the Podzeplje forward command post, the Godjenje

3 forward command post, all the way down to the Okresanica check-point and

4 the Borike forward command post and what is referred to as the Borike

5 villa.

6 Please just take a moment and orient yourself. This is a VRS

7 map, no doubt you can identify it as such, perhaps not exactly which map

8 it is, but my first question is: Can you tell the Trial Chamber, number

9 1, whether you recognise and are familiar with the locations depicted

10 here?

11 A. Yes, I'm familiar with all the locations depicted here, and they

12 were exactly as you can see them. The Borike villa was a motel, which is

13 why it is called the Borike villa.

14 Q. Indeed, and for the record, this is ERN 0701-3282.

15 Now if we could go to the next page in e-court, please, and we'll

16 look at a slightly enlarged image here. You referred in your testimony

17 to reporting to the Krivace IKM by radio communications as opposed to in

18 person. Do you recall that in your testimony?

19 A. Yes. I believe that that's -- that was upon my arrival. As

20 I arrived at the Krivace sector, together with my unit, or rather, my

21 unit and myself, I reported at the sector where the forward command post

22 had been established. I don't see the Solila feature here and I didn't

23 report there personally. I radioed in that the unit had arrived at the

24 location where it was to be deployed.

25 Q. Okay. Maybe if we could blow up the portion just around the

Page 8576

1 Krivace IKM and Podzeplje IKM that will help a little bit.

2 A. Yes, now I can see the Solila feature. It is in the village of

3 Krivace. The village obviously comprises a larger area than the Solila

4 feature.

5 Q. Indeed, sir, can you confirm that the word "Solila" is in fact

6 inside this little purple circle where the Krivace IKM has been

7 identified? Can you see the word "Solila"?

8 A. Yes, yes. I can see that.

9 Q. And can you describe for the Trial Chamber what the IKM there

10 actually consisted in when you had occasion to personally report there?

11 Was it a pre-existing building? Was it a command post that had been used

12 previously, or just tents or -- just give the Trial Chamber an idea.

13 A. I have just said, and I said it before, in answering either your

14 questions or questions from the Defence, I arrived in the village of

15 Krivace and I visited the IKM at the Solila sector two days later or

16 maybe even three days later. On the day when I arrived at the sector

17 where my unit was deployed, I radioed in at the command post that the

18 unit had arrived. When I visited the forward command post, I noticed

19 that elements had been developed which are normally developed for the

20 corps command in order to enable the functioning of the unit. There were

21 tents for the commander, for the ops room; in other words, everything

22 that was conducive to the command function of the units and -- was there.

23 So there were no pre-existing buildings or any fixed features, there were

24 just tents and everything that went with the tents in terms of equipment.

25 Q. Now, you just told us that you radioed in, basically, when you

Page 8577

1 arrived in the Krivace area. Can describe what types of communications

2 facilities were located at this Krivace IKM. You described all the

3 necessary elements of a forward command post. What kind of communication

4 facilities were there?

5 A. The organisation of communication facilities is something that a

6 communications officer could tell you about. However, I can confirm that

7 there were things there such as the mobile communication centre on a

8 vehicle. The chief of communications in the corps command was the one

9 who established the communication system by moving from one place to

10 another the mobile communications centre. There was a relay in Veliki

11 Zep nearby and through that he linked up the entire system to make it

12 possible to communicate with all the IKMs in the area. There was nothing

13 else, just that vehicle that had arrived and that made it possible to

14 establish the entire system, to put the entire communications system in

15 place.

16 Q. Just on that topic, sir, can you describe for the Trial Chamber

17 what types of communication equipment you are talking about when you

18 describe this mobile communications vehicle. What type of actual

19 communications equipment, mechanisms, are we talking about? If you can

20 just put it in simple terms for us, as simple as you can, please.

21 A. I'll try to put it in very simple terms. The equipment that the

22 vehicle had was very specific equipment that is necessary and that is

23 linked to certain relays. There was Veliki Zep and there was also

24 Zlovrh, a feature where I was injured. That was a facility that belonged

25 to the former JNA which was built as part of the system of the former

Page 8578

1 state and it was used for All People's Defence, for communications across

2 Yugoslavia. And there was another facility in Han Pijesak, there was one

3 in Veliki Zep, or rather, in Zlovrh. Now, let's go back to that vehicle.

4 That vehicle also had teletype equipment for coded messages and, to put

5 things even in more simple terms, that was predecessor of pagers or the

6 current mobile telephone system. For subordinated brigades, there were

7 other types of communications, for example, wire connections, which were

8 used to protect data, to intercept other communications. But it was not

9 the signals officer in the corps command who made those decisions, it was

10 the subordinated units who made those decisions. And if it is planned

11 for the units to be deployed for a longer time, then wire communications

12 are established with the command for a more simpler communication. The

13 units, the brigade commands and the corps command, had systems of

14 protection. We could establish protected communication through the

15 mobile communication system because there were radio sets in the

16 subordinated command and in that vehicle, so we could talk freely without

17 disclosing the contents of that conversation for anybody who may have

18 been listening in. And could you please not ask me any more about the

19 communications profession, because this is the extent of my knowledge

20 about the matter.

21 Q. I think that certainly your experience as a professional officer

22 has enabled you to give us a pretty good idea of what the guts of the

23 communications capabilities were when you were in Zepa. Let me just ask

24 you a couple of other follow-up questions. This mobile communications

25 vehicle, I take it from what you've told us, was dealing with radio

Page 8579

1 communications as opposed to you just referred to wire communications.

2 Is that correct? And if so, can you just explain to me a little bit

3 about what the difference is.

4 A. That vehicle, when the command post is developed further -- the

5 objective of every system of communications or the centre of

6 communications, is to use open communication as little as possible, in

7 order to prevent interception and the disclosing information to the

8 enemy. The vehicle that we had also had the telephone capabilities to

9 all the units and within the command, with the Vlasenica command post and

10 the staff. This was a very specific vehicle which also provided for the

11 development of telephone lines, wire lines. The difference between

12 certain systems of communication lies in the fact that wire communication

13 or telephone combination -- communication is connected to a small

14 switchboard that every command has, and from there lines, wire lines, are

15 extended to our main switchboard in the brigade commands. So the

16 different lines indicate that coded messages are sent via teleprinter

17 messages, radio communications that we used, those of us who were not

18 signalsmen, we talked to each other verbally, whereas coded messages were

19 printed. Radio communications enabled us to protect the voice or the

20 contents of the conversation so the recipient would receive the message

21 but not -- nothing was on air for anybody who may have been listening in.

22 There were special types of equipment that would be connected to both

23 ends. And wire communication lines was what they were. I don't think

24 that I have to go into details of those.

25 I don't know if I've answered your question, sir.

Page 8580

1 Q. You have, Colonel. Just one other question: The Trial Chamber

2 has heard occasional references to, for example, an induction phone. Can

3 you explain what that is?

4 A. Well, this is the telephone that I described. All units had

5 them. And when you developed wire connections, the end user could call

6 the switchboard. He would turn a handle, he would create induction, and

7 then the telephone would be -- would ring at the switchboard that you

8 wanted to call, and the switchboard operator would pick up and the person

9 who made the call then says who they want to be put through. So it's

10 like any other switchboard, a very classical switchboard. I believe that

11 you're familiar with the situation. For example, you call a hotel

12 reception, and then you say, Can you put me through to a certain room.

13 Now things have gone -- have been modernised, but in the army we had

14 switchboards which were connected to, for example, ten different

15 induction telephones.

16 Q. And, again, does that induction phone require a wire connection

17 or is that ultimately a radio wave communication at some point?

18 A. Yes. It was a wire connection. It was a wire connection. I

19 don't know whether you heard me.

20 Q. Yes, we did. Thank you.

21 Now, let's just move down this map a little bit. We can just

22 keep it where it is. Thank you. We can just keep it where it was, I'm

23 sorry. We can just go back, thanks.

24 Moving, drawing your attention to the Podzeplje IKM, can you tell

25 the Trial Chamber what that was?

Page 8581

1 A. Krivace was the IKM of the Drina Corps, and Podzeplje I believe

2 was my own IKM. At the moment when I took over the role from the Zvornik

3 Brigade and engaged in active combat, it was necessary for my reserves to

4 be deployed for combat, for engagement, and I had to rearrange my command

5 post in order to be able to monitor the deployment and combat activities

6 of my units. The Podzeplje IKM did not function as an IKM of the Drina

7 Corps. And I'm taken by surprise at the moment. So far, I've not seen

8 in any of the documents this feature called Podzeplje IKM. I believe it

9 was my own command post when it was moved from Jasenova to this area.

10 Q. We can certainly look at a document that you were shown in the

11 Popovic trial, which refers to, I think as you've just --

12 A. One more thing, if I may?

13 Q. Let me just finish my question, then I'll let you answer. We can

14 certainly show you a document where this IKM is specifically referred to,

15 I think, as you've noted, as your IKM. So if you like, I can show that

16 document to you. It was shown to you in the Popovic trial.

17 A. I would like to see that, to jog my memory. It could have been

18 part of the command of another unit. Yes, I would like it to jog my

19 memory. I don't want to arrive at erroneous conclusions or erroneous

20 assumptions.

21 Q. Okay. Well, while we're pulling that document out, can you tell

22 us what facilities, if any, were present at this location, this Podzeplje

23 IKM, when you arrived there? Had it been used previously, for example,

24 by any other unit as some kind of command post? Was there a fixed

25 structure there or not?

Page 8582

1 A. I believe that one part of the command of a unit from the 65th

2 Protection Regiment was there, and I believe that my command arrived in

3 that sector, as far as I can remember. My memory would have to be

4 refreshed and I would like to see the document that I may have seen

5 before. I would like to see it described. I believe that something was

6 already there, that some communications facilities already existed in the

7 area, that something had already been developed there.

8 Q. Okay, and just to clarify, that something that may have already

9 been there, are you referring to the presence of 65th Protection Regiment

10 elements being there previously, or were you telling us that this 65th

11 Protection Regiment presence at this Podzeplje IKM was only during the

12 Zepa operation when you were there, as far as you know?

13 A. I believe that some of their troops were already there and the

14 command elements of an inferior unit were there, and as you can see in

15 the map, there were some troops that protected the area in the direction

16 of [indiscernible] and Krivace. In other words, there were those

17 elements pre-existing, not only at the time when I was there.

18 Q. Okay, let's look at P1225. This is one of the notorious group of

19 documents that I tendered previously, so we are having a chance to use

20 it. Sir, if you would take a moment and refamiliarise yourself with this

21 document. If we could scroll up just a tad so we can catch the -- I'm

22 sorry, the other way, please. Yeah. There we go. We can see the

23 operational name, Stupcanica 95, in the upper right-hand corner, but take

24 a moment, Colonel, when you're ready for the page to be turned, and just

25 for the record, this is 13 July 1995, attack order, emanating from the

Page 8583

1 Drina Corps command, forward command post in Krivace, sent to various

2 commands of the Drina Corps.

3 A. I've read this.

4 Q. Okay. I just note before we turn the page, if we look at the

5 bottom of paragraph 4, it refers to the objective of liberating and

6 clearing the Serbian Podrinje of Muslim forces and eliminating the

7 enclaves with combat readiness at 0800 hours on the 14th of July. And I

8 believe you've testified previously that that was the order that you were

9 given, that there was to be combat readiness for 0800 on the 14th of

10 July; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. And at the very bottom of the page here, we see the heading,

13 "Krivace command post" with tasks. And if we could go to the next page,

14 we can see the various tasks enumerated, 2, 3, and 4. And if we could

15 scroll over to the left, please, in the B/C/S version, just -- I'm sorry,

16 the other way, to the left. Thank you. Do you see right above -- and we

17 need to scroll down in the English version, please. We can see right

18 above item 5, the heading, "Command post in the village of Podzeplje."

19 Number 5 --

20 A. Point 5 -- point 4.

21 Q. Yes. Right below point 4, above point 5, the heading, "Command

22 post in the village of Podzeplje." And it indicates that the Romanija

23 Motorised Brigade in reserve in the village of Podzeplje area. That's

24 you; is that correct, Colonel?

25 A. Yes. But I am the Romanija brigade, that's my brigade, but what

Page 8584

1 it says right above, the command post in the Podzeplje area, that is in

2 reference to the Zvornik Brigade. That is the last thing you see in item

3 4. They are establishing a command post in Podzeplje. But my own unit,

4 as you see in item 5, has not had an assigned post assigned to it yet.

5 The only thing that it said is I'm in the reserve in the Podzeplje area,

6 which automatically means that my command post is in Podzeplje. My

7 command post too is in Podzeplje but we don't see that specially pointed

8 out.

9 Q. Okay.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, you should perhaps with the witness

11 try to find out the original B/C/S version, which is where this seems to

12 be, this third paragraph of item 4, and not the headline for item 5. The

13 design of the page is different in B/C/S and English.

14 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President. The command post in

15 the village of Podzeplje is a heading that refers, if you like -- well,

16 we can go back. Let's go back to the prior page, page 1. We can see

17 items 1, 2, 3 and 4, and that portion ends with combat readiness at 0800

18 hours on the 14th of July 1995.

19 The next heading is Krivace command post. And the task of the

20 units begins at paragraph 5 with subs 1 through 4, if we go to the next

21 page.

22 Q. And just to clarify, who was based at the Krivace command post,

23 Colonel?

24 A. If I may, in relation to the remark that the Presiding Judge

25 made, I would still like to clarify one thing. Item 4, the command post

Page 8585

1 in Podzeplje village is not in reference to the next item. That's not

2 the title of the next paragraph. That is the end of item 4. It is not

3 that I'm trying to preach here or necessarily explain anything to you,

4 but could we please go back to page 1? There is something else that

5 I wish to clarify.

6 Q. Now, Colonel, please, let me just stop you right there. Let's

7 stick with the task at hand. If we go to page 1 -- let's go back to page

8 1, please -- let's just try to make this crystal clear. There is a

9 reference to the Krivace command post, and again my question to you is:

10 What does that heading or footer or however you want to refer to it, what

11 does that pertain to, the Krivace command post? Why is that phrase

12 there?

13 A. Thank you for your understanding. Just to make this perfectly

14 clear, up to item 4, everything that is there, up to item 4 and before

15 item 5 begins, it's all in relation to the corps. Item 1, the assessment

16 of the situation as far as the enemy is concerned. Item 2, the

17 assessment of the situation among one's own ranks and the ranks of the

18 neighbours. 3, corps units; 4, corps commander decision. And then,

19 within that decision, the commander determines readiness and also the

20 corps's command post. Item 5 begins with something in relation to the

21 subordinate units, and each of the items have one final sentence

22 designating the command post of the unit that the paragraph or the item

23 is in relation to. Each paragraph or item ends with a sentence that

24 determines the command post of the unit in question.

25 Q. Exactly. Now, if we can go to the next page, and let's just do

Page 8586

1 this systematically. This is why I just wanted to take our time and go

2 through each of these elements. If we see number 1, which actually

3 begins on the prior page in B/C/S -- if we can go back just for Colonel

4 Trivic's benefit in the B/C/S to page 1. We see under number 5, there

5 appears to be a number 1, and that indicates the first Milici Light

6 Infantry Brigade and the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade shall attack,

7 and then it gives an axis and then it gives a task.

8 And if we go to the next page in B/C/S, we see a number 2, a

9 similar provision for the Vlasenica Brigade; a task and an axis. Number

10 3, the 5th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, an axis and a task. But so

11 far we don't see any command post indicated for any of these units. We

12 get to number 4, we have the Zvornik Brigade and then we have this

13 reference to the command post in the village of Podzeplje. So the

14 question is: First, does that reference to the command post in the

15 village of Podzeplje mean that only the unit in number 4 had its command

16 post there, or all of the units in numbers 1 through 4, or does it mean

17 something else? Because, as we can see from items 1 through 4, there is

18 only one listing of any command post. Each of those individual brigade

19 assignments doesn't have its own command post listed here in this

20 document. So that is my question to you, is: What is this reference,

21 command post in the village of Podzeplje, referring to?

22 A. I think I understand. Subitem 1 within item 5, the Milic,

23 Vlasenica, Podrinjska, 5th and all the way up to the Zvornik Brigade,

24 there is no reference to the command post there. What is meant is that

25 they used their own command post which, up until this point in time in

Page 8587

1 the combat operations, while holding the lines in the defence areas, they

2 were using the existing command posts. In relation to the Zvornik

3 Brigade, it was necessary to determine a location. Why? Because the

4 Zvornik Brigade used some of its forces to leave its defence area. A

5 component left my area and went to a new area. Of course, my superior

6 command had to determine a new location but not in a formal way. They

7 didn't formally determine a place where I was to establish a command

8 post. It had to be determined in such a way that we could establish an

9 appropriate system of communications so that one could get the command

10 system off the ground, in a manner of speaking. That's why it was

11 necessary to determine for the Zvornik Brigade the area in which it would

12 be establishing its command post. And you see if you look at the next

13 thing, the Romanija brigade, which also arrived from somewhere outside

14 its existing defence area, if I can put it that way, outside its base, no

15 command location was determined in Podzeplje although they were outside

16 their own Defence zone, but suffice it to say that the Romanija brigade

17 was in the reserve in the Podzeplje area. As soon as I knew that, I as a

18 commander and my signals officer knew that they would be setting up a

19 system of communications where they were in the reserve. I'm there, I'm

20 on stand-by, and my units are waiting to be included in the combat

21 disposition, if you get my point, and that is the gist of the discrepancy

22 between these two. Some place you find it and some place you don't.

23 Throws who were outside their zones had to be given a general area to

24 establish their command post. Those who were operating from within their

25 own zones had no need of a new command post being determined.

Page 8588

1 Q. Okay. So if we go to item 7, then, and if we could go to the

2 next page in English, we see here the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry

3 Brigade. Now they had to travel a certain distance, did they not,

4 Colonel, to get to this area of responsibilities?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So what is the command post that's applicable to this group which

7 sent its soldiers all the way from Bratunac?

8 A. That is the question? All right. Let's take it like this. The

9 1st Bratunac brigade also left, or some of its forces left its own zone

10 or their own zone or his own zone, and if you look at this, you see that

11 the 1st Bratunac Brigade determines a unit that is to join the Milic

12 Brigade. This is the gist. It carries out a task that was originally

13 given to the Milic Brigade. It has now joined the Milic Brigade, and if

14 you look at subitem or subparagraph 1 you see that it's got its own -- it

15 reports to the commander of the Milic brigade and then it brings it

16 there, a part of the Bratunac Brigade. And there is no need to establish

17 a command post for the Bratunac Brigade. Rather, it carries out the

18 tasks and uses the command post already established by the Milic Brigade

19 in order to have communications with its own command, its own superior

20 command. That is why nothing is determined.

21 Q. And where is Bracan?

22 A. Believe me, I don't know. One should look it up on a map, but if

23 we go to subparagraph 1 it's probably something to do with the Milic

24 Brigade. They mention Bracan as an area there.

25 Q. Now. We've gone through this whole exercise, but in fact I don't

Page 8589

1 think there is any disagreement that I think you've said twice now that

2 you were in reserve in the village of Podzeplje, correct?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. Okay. There is no dispute there. If we could go back to P104.

5 We would just like to tender P1225, please.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as P1225.

7 MR. THAYER: And page 13, please.

8 Q. Now, how long were you actually based at Podzeplje?

9 A. You mean the unit as a whole or just the forward command post of

10 the Romanija Brigade?

11 Q. Just you and your unit, sir, your forces.

12 A. The units came after part of the Zvornik Brigade left the area.

13 My unit was given the following task, based on the original decision:

14 I was to follow it within the combat disposition and I was supposed to be

15 introduced as needed. Since he left, I think my unit was introduced on

16 the 16th, pursuant to an order following the departure of the Zvornik

17 Brigade. As far as the forward command post, it remained in Podzeplje

18 until the day it was moved, transferred to the Godjenje sector. And then

19 there was another relocation on or about the 27th, to the Borike sector

20 in reserves. The command element, until the transfer or relocation,

21 stayed until it moved to Godjenje. As far as the combat element,

22 following the departure of the Zvornik Brigade, it was moved to a part of

23 the ground occupied by the forces of the Zvornik Brigade on what I

24 believe was the 16th.

25 Q. And briefly, Colonel, could you tell the Trial Chamber what the

Page 8590

1 reason for the Zvornik Brigade's departure from the Zepa operation was.

2 A. At the briefing, then, which appears to be the popular term these

3 days, while we were reporting to the commander, I think it was the 16th,

4 the 7th, the command post of the corps in Solila, it was said that the

5 Zvornik Brigade had to leave because of certain problems that had

6 occurred in the defence zone of the Zvornik Brigade. There had been a

7 breakthrough at the front end, resulting in casualties on both sides,

8 weapons being seized and so on and so forth, the regional command of the

9 Zvornik Brigade ws sent back with some of his men. I think it was the

10 16th. Those were the reasons. The forces of the 28th Division that were

11 moving towards Kladanj or whatever area that was in order to link up with

12 the BH Army, on a massive scale, broke through the lines using the

13 weapons they had. The estimates at the time said 2.000 men got through

14 the front end of the Zvornik Brigade and then the forces from Zepa

15 returned to give them a hand and to also take over command in order to

16 deal with the problem which was becoming an obvious problem in the

17 defence zone.

18 Q. So clearly, Commander Pandurevic had been in communication with

19 his home brigade based in Zvornik such that he was apprised of these

20 developments and then made the decision to return to his own area of

21 responsibility; is that fair to say?

22 A. Well, I wouldn't quite put it in such simple terms. The brigade

23 commander cannot simply leave this area just because he found out and he

24 took the decision. He got an order to go back, to leave this area

25 because he couldn't take the decision himself, whether he would stay

Page 8591

1 there for this long or that long and how long he would spend on a certain

2 mission regardless of any problems that his subordinates in his command

3 post were telling him about. But it's also about what you said in the

4 first part of your question: Yes, the brigade commander did have a link

5 to his command but not a direct link to his command. Whoever informed

6 him about the problems, this was the command post of the corps in

7 Vlasenica which had received their report on what was going on in the

8 defence area of the Zvornik Brigade and then they in turn informed the

9 forward command post, the communication centre there. And then General

10 Krstic, who was in command of the operation overall, took the decision to

11 pull them out and ordered Pandurevic to go back and deal with the

12 situation. That is the essence. It's not like he had a direct link and

13 then the other man told him I'm facing some problems here, come over and

14 give me a hand. It's not quite like that, if you see what I mean. No

15 commander would have been able to make decisions of that nature.

16 Q. Of course not, Colonel. And what I want to focus on is what you

17 just focused on, which is the communications link at the Drina Corps

18 command in Vlasenica. I take it that's the same link that you testified

19 you were able to avail yourself of when you were operating in the

20 Srebrenica area. For example, when you were in Bojna and you needed to

21 contact another unit, perhaps your home brigade in Mezina [phoen], you

22 would have had to contact your brigade through that Drina Corps command

23 link or switchboard; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. The communication lines were functioning as envisaged based

25 on a plan drawn up especially for that mission. Other units were

Page 8592

1 organising combat equipment, men, logistics, and our own logistics

2 officers or communications officers were drawing up a plan for that area

3 for that particular mission, and then, among other things, we had the

4 code name, and that's why, for example, this task was code named Krivaja

5 95, and it was under that name that everyone knew about it and then there

6 was some manipulation going on.

7 The signals plan, the communications plan that we received from

8 the communications chief, in this case the corps commander, and this was

9 sent to each of the brigades, it detailed the frequencies that we would

10 be using, the fall-back frequencies, what to do when there were problems,

11 what the stand-by systems were to be used, and also the substance of our

12 encrypted communications. We had these codes, we had the call signs, so,

13 for example, the village was Krivaca but we would call it Razvalina.

14 It's just something that we agreed on. Or a different name perhaps,

15 whatever they came up with. And certain features, for example. You

16 could have a certain features marked in the same way for each of the

17 units on the map and then everybody would know that it's Zlovrh number

18 31, for example. But this is something that each of us needed to get

19 from our signals officer, as well as a communications plan. Therefore,

20 the communications plan was used for the Srebrenica operation. I think

21 it was also used for Stupcanica operation because there were no changes

22 that were introduced because not all of the same units were involved and

23 maybe no changes were made. It might have been reservists I think from

24 the 65th regiment or something like that, maybe that was introduced as a

25 reserve participant, and saw the frequencies and they operated like that

Page 8593

1 in much the same way, but the plan had to be there, there had to be a

2 plan.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, may I interrupt you. You are speaking very

4 fast. And it's a big problem for the interpreters and the Court Recorder

5 to catch everything what you are saying. Please slow down while giving

6 an answer. Mr. Thayer, please carry on.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do by best, thank you.

8 MR. THAYER:

9 Q. Colonel I just note page 56, line 10, the transcript didn't catch

10 the second operation's name. You said, "Therefore the communications

11 plan was used for the Srebrenica operation. I think it was also used for

12 --" and then we have a gap. I think you said the name of the second

13 operation, the Zepa operation. If you could just put that on the record

14 so we have it clear, please.

15 A. Well, I personally didn't use it at the time but I read the order

16 today, the order for attack. I think the name was Stupcanica. It is

17 possible that the same communications plan was used in the Zepa

18 operation, but I don't know, but I think the name here was Stupcanica.

19 Q. Just while we are on this topic, and this will be my last

20 question on this subject, I think. You -- and I'll paraphrase you a

21 little bit, but you testified in the Blagojevic case - and this is

22 transcript page 7479, if anybody wants to check - you testified that if

23 you couldn't maintain communications, you couldn't command operations.

24 Can you give the Trial Chamber, please, a little bit of an idea of how

25 important maintaining communications is to an operation or, indeed, the

Page 8594

1 proper functioning of an army.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, please repeat the reference to the

3 transcript in the Blagojevic case. It was not recorded.

4 MR. THAYER: That's transcript page 7479, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. And now, please, your answer, sir.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I still adhere by that statement.

7 If the communication system had not functioned, when it comes to such

8 complex operations within any system that exists, it can be in finances,

9 in judiciary, and especially in such situations and in such events, it

10 would not have been possible to engage in combat because the command that

11 organised those activities was duty-bound to also coordinate, to listen

12 to reports, to react to the events, in order to prevent unnecessary

13 losses and problems that might have arised if we didn't know where people

14 were, how far people had reached, and there were all sorts of weapons,

15 shells and explosives, that could have been perilous for the troops.

16 Even if we had not planned to go somewhere, if we lost contact with the

17 units and elements that provided logistic support, the entire operation

18 would have to come to a halt on those lines and in such conditions, until

19 such moment when the system was operational again. When we were being

20 prepared for work in military schools, in peacetime and in complex

21 activities, this communication system is the central nervous system of

22 any army, if I may put it that way.

23 Q. Okay. Let's move on to a new topic, Colonel. In the Popovic

24 trial, you may recall you were shown a very large map that had been

25 signed by General Krstic, it had a cross drawn over the Srebrenica and

Page 8595

1 Zepa enclaves, and four Cyrillic Ss and some statements by General Krstic

2 on the map. Do you recall that from the last trial?

3 A. Yes. You have refreshed my memory. I think -- not only do

4 I think but I'm sure that you have refreshed my memory. I remember

5 having seen that again. But I can't really remember what was written on

6 the map.

7 Q. Okay. Well, if we could quickly have 1499 -- I beg your pardon,

8 that's the old number. It's the 2007 number. If we could have P106,

9 please. We don't have the translated version at the moment to show while

10 we're looking at it blown up, but can you just again read what is written

11 to the right of first the Srebrenica enclave here?

12 A. "Srebrenica was Serbian and is Serbian again, on the 12th of

13 July 1995, General Major Krstic."

14 Q. Okay. And below that, next to the Zepa enclave portion of the

15 map, what does it say?

16 A. "Zepa also is Serbian, on the 27th of July 1995," again General

17 Major Krstic.

18 Q. Now, when you looked at this map in the Popovic trial you

19 testified that the movements, the military movements indicated on this

20 map didn't correspond with your recollection of the actual movements on

21 the ground during the operation. But you testified that you do believe

22 that you saw a Krivaja 95 map with General Mladic's signature on it. Is

23 -- have I summarised your prior testimony fairly, sir?

24 A. I believe that that was the case. Maybe I could be shown the

25 map. In any case, this is not a combat document. This map does not

Page 8596

1 represent an official combat document. It is not a map on which

2 decisions were based. This is possibly a working map that was

3 established after the events, and the ones where I saw all those

4 signatures, I believe that that was the decision for Krivaja.

5 Q. Okay. Well, I've got a little surprise for you, but before we

6 leave this exhibit, again we can see that General Krstic has, on both of

7 these enclaves, drawn a cross with these four Ss. Can you tell the Trial

8 Chamber what significance that has for you, if any, and if you have any

9 idea of what significance those symbols had for General Krstic?

10 A. Is that the surprise?

11 Q. No. There is more.

12 A. What that meant to him, I don't know. But I know that this

13 symbol has been taken from the Serbian flag or the coat of arms of the

14 Republic of Serbia. The four Ss represent the Serbs; the cross and the

15 four Ss symbolise the Serbs. And the coat of arms is now used in Serbia,

16 and those Ss reflect the significance. The graphical symbolism also is

17 reflected in what is written here.

18 Q. And in your understanding, do those four Ss stand for any words

19 in particular? Are they abbreviations for anything, that you know of?

20 A. This is not how I interpret this symbol. I personally don't have

21 an interpretation. There are all sorts of theoreticians or

22 quasi-theoreticians, when all the notorious things started happening,

23 they provided all sorts of interpretations. I'm not an expert, but in

24 any case I have not interpreted the four Ss in any way. There is no

25 symbolism in the cross. And this is what Krstic drew, and in graphical

Page 8597

1 terms this is a product which was taken from Serbia, and then the wording

2 to the right of the symbols are reflected in the symbols.

3 Q. And have you ever heard the saying or the phrase, "Only unity

4 will save the Serbs"?

5 A. I've just told you that there have been all sorts of

6 interpretations. Some proposed your version, and there have also been

7 others that studied the history of Orthodox Church in our area, who have

8 proposed other interpretations. I will repeat: I have heard what you

9 have just mentioned but I don't think that even Krstic was among those

10 who would have drawn the symbol because of the meaning. The symbol

11 itself signifies something that belongs to the Serbs, and in this case

12 the sector here depicted in this way is what it is and the interpretation

13 I could provide is that there was no longer any need for any lines

14 because everything belonged to the Serbs. There may be other

15 interpretations of that, but I don't see a context in which the words,

16 "Only unity will save the Serbs" would be necessary given the fact that

17 both ethnic groups died in the area. And now everything is over, the

18 battle is over, and the description is given, this is now Serbian

19 territory, there are no more combat positions or lines in the area.

20 That's how I see it.

21 Q. And it's also fair to say, sir, is it not, that there were no

22 more Muslims in the area of Srebrenica and Zepa at that time.

23 A. Perhaps. You have suggested you have a surprise for me. I don't

24 want any such surprises but I would not put forth any positions or

25 opinions on that. I'm not going to speculate that somebody on that -- on

Page 8598

1 their side drew their own map and put words on it, "We are no longer

2 there." Let's not speculate with symbolism and things like that. Let's

3 stop right there. This is just an explosion of satisfaction that one

4 segment is over. So if there were five of us here, each of us would be

5 able to propose their own interpretation, and I don't think that it is a

6 good subject for discussion here in this courtroom.

7 Q. Let me just follow up on one thing you said, Colonel. When

8 I asked you that it's also fair to say that there were no more Muslims in

9 the area of Srebrenica and Zepa at that time, your answer was "Perhaps."

10 Is there a question in your mind about whether there were Muslims left in

11 Srebrenica enclave and Zepa enclave after these two operations?

12 A. What you have you just asked me today, is that what you're

13 referring to? Just a minute ago, in the previous question?

14 Q. Indeed, I can repeat it again, if you want, but I think it's a

15 pretty simple question.

16 A. Very well. Well, we started talking about the map that had

17 already been admitted previously. Well, I don't think that any of them

18 were left there. There is no need to conclude anything differently.

19 After the two operations and the evacuation of people from the area, save

20 for those who had scattered across the area, at the time when I was

21 hospitalised, I must say that there were still soldiers being killed in

22 the zone of defence of my brigade, from those people who hurried through

23 the woods trying to find a way to link up with their own forces, so

24 I would not rule out the fact that there were still Muslims in the area.

25 Well, it's possible that there were still Muslims there because not all

Page 8599

1 of them came out the road, there were still people roaming around trying

2 to link up with their forces. During that time on those days it is

3 possible that there were still Muslims moving about. You may have not

4 understood me when I told you that we shouldn't go along that way. On

5 the 29th, when I was hospitalised, people came to visit and every time

6 they would tell me a few more soldiers were killed in the area where the

7 zone of responsibility of my brigade was.

8 Q. And during that period of time that you're speaking of, Colonel,

9 you're referring to what I think is commonly known as a mopping up

10 operation or a search operation, are you not?

11 A. Well, yes. In any case, none of the two operations ended with

12 the full evacuation of the population, or the entrance into the enclave

13 which were not only narrowed down but even stopped functioning. The

14 scouring of the terrain is a normal activity that follows any combat

15 activity when the area is placed under the control of the unit that was

16 engaged in active combat. It is a rule. It is not only normal but it is

17 a rule to look at the area, to inspect the area, to inspect the roads

18 that could be used by the remains of the enemy elements from which they

19 could open fire on us once we were relaxed; they could kill our command

20 or launch some sabotage activities. This is a normal activity undertaken

21 by every military in the world when territory is placed under control.

22 This is a logical sequence of the events.

23 Q. And I think as you said before, the scattered elements of

24 whatever Muslims were left were trying to get out of the enclaves, were

25 they not? They were trying, as you said, to reach free territory.

Page 8600

1 A. Well, in any case, those who did not want to surrender looked for

2 possibilities to reach what they considered free territory. To be very

3 precise: A territory under the control of the Republika Srpska was also

4 free but they did not want to surrender to the Republika Srpska army,

5 they wanted to link up with their own forces.

6 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I see we are beyond the break.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, we have to adjourn for the second break.

8 I would like to invite you, Mr. Thayer, to consider the length of the

9 examination-in-chief. We got an estimation that you will need one hour.

10 You are beyond that time already and you should consider the remaining

11 examination-in-chief carefully, taking into account that most of the

12 evidence of the witness is already in evidence.

13 We adjourn and resume at five minutes past 1.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Thayer. Please continue and take the --

17 please be aware of the time.

18 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Colonel, I promised you a surprise, and we can look at it on

20 e-court but also in full size. About 18 months ago, the OTP interviewed

21 General Zivanovic, and he provided us with a map that we are about to see

22 on e-court, but I want to show you the full-size version because it's

23 much easier for you to see and to assess. And the number is 5519,

24 please, in e-court.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment, we have some problems with

Page 8601

1 e-court, and with the transcript. Perhaps somebody can assist Judge

2 Nyambe and Judge Mindua. Now I'm back.

3 MR. THAYER:

4 Q. Colonel, is that close enough or can you read it well enough from

5 where you are?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. THAYER: May I proceed, Mr. President?

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please, go ahead. We have resolved the

9 problems on the screens. It's okay.

10 MR. THAYER:

11 Q. Colonel, as I said, we received this map from General Zivanovic

12 about 18 months ago. We did not have it in our possession when you

13 testified in the Popovic case. Does it look familiar to you?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. We can see that it has General Mladic's signature in the upper

16 right-hand -- upper left-hand corner, with the code name Krivaja-95 in

17 the upper right-hand corner.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, may I interrupt you for a moment?

19 Mr. Gajic.

20 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we please get

21 the same thing in e-court? I don't have it on either of my screens.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?

23 MR. THAYER: Again, it's 65 ter 5519, please.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

25 MR. THAYER: If we could, on e-court, upload the translation

Page 8602

1 version, please.

2 Q. Again, we can see that in the upper right-hand corner, the

3 operation code name, Krivaja-95, General Mladic's handwriting, saying,

4 "Completed. This was Serbian and it's now Serbian" with a date of 12

5 July 1995. General Zivanovic's signature at the lower right-hand corner.

6 Do you see that, sir? With the Drina Corps stamp, lower right-hand

7 corner?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Again, General Mladic's --

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see a signature there.

11 MR. THAYER: Okay. We need to scroll down a little bit, please.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are at the bottom.

13 MR. THAYER: And in the upper left-hand corner, General Mladic's

14 signature and approval.

15 Q. Now, my first question for you, sir, is: Do the axes of attack

16 that are depicted on this map more closely reflect the events on the

17 ground, as you experienced them, when compared to the other map that we

18 showed you?

19 A. I would like to ask you one thing: Before I answer this

20 question, may I respond by presenting you with a surprise? This is not a

21 map for the operation that was carried out. This is a map for active

22 actions planned for the Drina Corps units holding the lines facing the

23 Srebrenica enclave. You see that the 2nd Romanija Brigade is not shown

24 on this map. I believe "military secret, strictly confidential,

25 Krivaja-95" was added later on. You can tell if you look closely at the

Page 8603

1 marks of the pen that was used. And then in the right corner, something

2 was added also. There is a pointer that I can use, could I please have

3 one? It reads, "forces for active actions or operations" and in the 1st

4 Infantry Battalion of the 1st Zvornik Brigade, that's what it says but

5 I don't see it up there, the 1st Infantry Battalion of the 1st Zvornik

6 Brigade, I don't see it marked anywhere around Srebrenica, just in the

7 additional text further down on the map. And then the infantry battalion

8 from the 1st Vlasenica Brigade, 2nd Romanija Brigade, 2nd Company or MUP

9 station, and so on and so forth. I think these are later additions, not

10 contemporaneous. Because if you look at the deployment of forces around

11 the Srebrenica enclave you can see where my unit was introduced but it

12 doesn't say the 2nd Romanija Brigade. It says the Independent Infantry

13 Battalion Skelani, the 1st Light Infantry Brigade to the right, and the

14 2nd Light Infantry Brigade to the left. I think the whole thing was

15 added later on, as part of the decision for Krivaja operation.

16 If I may continue, if you have a map that reflects a decision for

17 a certain action at a certain time, you have to see the period in time

18 which that refers to. Active operations decision, for example, the 6th

19 of July, 1995, and that constitutes a combat document for that particular

20 activity. I'll say it again: I think it was General Zivanovic who did

21 this because this map was probably somewhere or other in his office just

22 lying around and then the map was designed based on directive number 7 in

23 which the Drina Corps was told to be carrying out active operations over

24 the following year, and this is a fair reflection of that but it is not a

25 fair reflection of the actual operation.

Page 8604

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, we see on the map on the screen a

2 different version than that which is originally put to the witness. This

3 is a problem because here are these entries in English which obviously

4 are translations. But it would be more helpful for the Chamber to have

5 the original version on the screen, and when I ask, I can't see a

6 signature by Mr. Zivanovic. You didn't dwell on that. I would like to

7 see that.

8 MR. THAYER: I'll point it out, Mr. President. If we could have

9 the original version, please. And it may be useful as well to hand up

10 the full-size to the Trial Chamber so you can see it better. The problem

11 with this version in the original on e-court, Mr. President, is it's not

12 quite as good a copy as the one with the translations, but we can try to

13 blow up that bottom right-hand corner and see if we can catch the

14 signature. As you can see, this map is a little darker than the previous

15 one.

16 The signature, if you see the stamp, Mr. President, and I think

17 Colonel Trivic can weigh in if he can see it as well on the original but

18 there is a -- you can see some squiggly lines in a bluish colour ink that

19 flow from left to right starting with basically with that circular stamp

20 there. Again, it's harder to see on this version but we can hand up the

21 full-size original for the Trial Chamber to take a look at.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to hear from the witness if he sees

23 the original signature of a person on the right bottom corner. On the

24 original map. Do you see that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 8605

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is enough.

2 But, Mr. Thayer, again, can you give us an indication of the

3 length of the remaining examination-in-chief?

4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I just have one more exhibit, which

5 is the diary of Colonel Trivic, to review some entries with him, and

6 that's it. I'll probably need to the end of the session to complete

7 those questions with Colonel Trivic.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's only a question of fairness. Several times

9 I asked Mr. Tolimir to give an indication of the length of his

10 examination, and therefore I asked you the same line. Please carry on.

11 MR. THAYER:

12 Q. Now, can you describe for us, Colonel, what the map that you

13 remember seeing looked like and how it differed from this one?

14 A. I can't remember what that map looked like but I'm looking at

15 what this map indicates and, based on what is there as well as in the

16 rules for drawing up this type of map for this task in July, all of the

17 units involved in active operations were supposed to be displayed on the

18 map, based on the order for readiness on the 6th of July 1995. If we

19 wanted to pursue this all the way, and link the whole thing up, it would

20 be necessary to look at the substance of what the order says and then

21 trace every single element of the combat disposition and all of the units

22 mentioned in that document as having a task in July, in terms of active

23 operations. All of these units would have to be graphically represented

24 or depicted on this map, as well as its axes.

25 My unit is not there, which is a clear indicator, to my mind,

Page 8606

1 that this map was produced in order to carry out the task from the

2 directive of a course of active operations being planned but not active

3 operations of this type to narrow down or extend the enclave. Rather,

4 actions involving the forces that were holding the positions facing the

5 enclave, and that's why my unit is not there.

6 Secondly, my observation suggests that there is no depiction here

7 of the elements of the Zvornik Brigade. Have a look for yourself. You

8 can check in the English version too. And some other units, too, that

9 are not there. These are merely the units that were holding those

10 positions facing the Srebrenica enclave. Hence, my inference that this

11 map is not a faithful reflection of the order. What the text of the

12 order says must be graphically depicted on a map. You can talk to one of

13 your experts and I have no doubt that they will confirm what I'm telling

14 you. And you can analyse this all over again.

15 Yes, Mladic's signature is there, but some bits of the text were

16 added later on, and then they added the 2nd Romanija Brigade. I think if

17 you consult a handwriting expert, they can confirm that. Maybe this was

18 done by several different people at different points in time. If you

19 look at the mark that the pen leaves here, where it says, "I hereby

20 approve," and in the lower right corner it is not the same pen being

21 used, it's not the same ink. This is fresh ink and this is old ink, an

22 old pen being used, as far as I can tell. Therefore, this map suffered

23 later editions, in a manner of speaking, in order to have a map that

24 would be a map of this operation, and I can't rule this out. Mladic's

25 signature is there, Zivanovic, and undertaking good relations to the

Page 8607

1 chief of the Main Staff, he probably just showed him this map and, you

2 know, it was just like that; they simply decided to take advantage of the

3 moment, here, let me sign this as well, because he hadn't signed it up

4 until that point in time, and he also put his signature right here where

5 it says "completed." You know, it was just a situation in an office

6 somewhere. Maybe he simply dropped by and met up with Tomo Kovac, maybe

7 it was something like that, in the corps commander's office.

8 Q. If I can just summarise one portion of that answer, sir. The map

9 itself, your testimony is that it reflects the intentions of the superior

10 command at a particular point in time. What you're saying is just not

11 during the actual operations that were conducted in July of 1995. Is

12 that fair to say?

13 A. Well, that would be the basic conclusion, yes. You know the

14 substance of this. I listened to it, we talked about the substance of

15 Directive 7 and 7.1 for that year in 1995 in which the Drina Corps -- and

16 I'm talking about during my proofing, when I was listening to all these

17 materials, that Drina Corps faced the following task -- rather, it was

18 set out for them how they should be carrying out their tasks in the next

19 year. The Supreme Command issued a directive and the Main Staff

20 distributed that to all of the subordinate units. That task, that

21 directive, gives out tasks to all of the units, and the Drina Corps had

22 the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa in its own area of responsibility,

23 and then the Drina Corps received the task of carrying out active combat

24 operations, improving their positions, cutting across the enemy's

25 communication lines between Srebrenica and Zepa, as enclaves and so on

Page 8608

1 and so forth, and it was based on that directive that steps were taken in

2 order to be able to say there you go -- you see Zepa -- why is Zepa not

3 there? Was it later on? But then you have the arrows pointing this way

4 and that way meaning there were operations being carried out there as

5 well of one sort or another. Therefore this map probably reflects a

6 directive, probably an order that the corps commander or the corps

7 command added to this map or wrote in addition to this map. When you

8 have active combat operations being carried out, they have to indicate

9 clearly. Where is the Zvornik Brigade Battalion, where is the Romanija

10 Brigade? I'm not saying it was along one of the main roads but it was,

11 you know, somewhere close to the focus of these active operations. All

12 I'm saying is it simply wasn't shown anywhere on this map and that leads

13 me to believe that this map does not reflect the order for July; in other

14 words, Krivaja.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Trivic, may I remind you to slow down while

16 speaking. It was extremely fast. Mr. Thayer.

17 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter

18 5519.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

20 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, Your Honour, that will be Exhibit

21 P1443, Your Honours.

22 MR. THAYER: I don't want the Trial Chamber to feel left out, so

23 we have a surprise for the Trial Chamber as well today. We have some

24 hard copies of this diary that the Trial Chamber has heard references to.

25 I don't need to belabour the origin of the diary.

Page 8609

1 Q. Colonel, did you bring your diary with you into court today? Do

2 you have it in your briefcase?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The maps [sic] will be received in the original

6 or original copy, and the Defence -- I see Mr. Gajic has already a copy

7 of that. That's fine.

8 MR. THAYER: If I may hand up a copy to the witness as well,

9 please.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.

11 MR. THAYER:

12 Q. Colonel, if you would take out your copy, the original of the

13 notebook, and just place it next to this reproduction.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was erring when I said the maps should be given

15 to the Chamber. It was the copy of the diary. I was not aware of that.

16 I just want to put it on the record. Thank you.

17 MR. THAYER:

18 Q. Now, Colonel, if you would kindly allow the Trial Chamber, if it

19 wishes, just to see what this notebook looks like up close, we can hand

20 it up just for a moment to the Trial Chamber. It's a very delicate

21 document; you'll see that the glue has become undone and the pages are

22 loose.

23 Colonel, will you permit the court assistant just to hand that up

24 to the Trial Chamber to get a sense of what it is? Thank you. Will you

25 agree that it's a fairly standard notebook that you cut down to size to

Page 8610

1 use during these events?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And during your testimony in the Blagojevic case, did you place

4 some pages that had come out back in the proper chronological order and

5 then number the pages?

6 A. Yes. After having used the diary, not only in the courtroom but

7 during the proofing session, the notebook just came loose and the

8 chronological order was lost. In order to prevent that from happening

9 again, I marked all the pages with a red felt-tipped pen. I hope I had

10 put all the pages in order. You will see that some of the pages are the

11 summaries of what had happened over the past couple of days, and then you

12 will see that I have written on both sides of the pages and that all the

13 sides on one side contain information about Srebrenica, and the other,

14 the verso, contains information about Zepa.

15 Q. Okay. So basically you wrote on both sides of the pages?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when it came to the Zepa operation, what did you do in terms

18 of starting that section of this diary?

19 A. This is what I just said. I turned the notebook upside down and

20 started writing from the back of the same notebook, and went forward into

21 the notebook. So Srebrenica starts on the right side of the notebook,

22 and Zepa starts on the back side of the notebook.

23 Q. Okay.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have had the opportunity to have a very brief

25 look at it, and the notebook was -- the diary was given back to the

Page 8611

1 witness.

2 MR. THAYER:

3 Q. Now, if we look on e-court, and this is 65 ter 7108. I just want

4 to take us through, as we go through our copies of the hard copy, so we

5 can explain how this has been reproduced. We see in e-court here ERN

6 number 0648-6772, and is it fair to say, sir, that what this image is of

7 is the cover, the hard cardboard cover, of your notebook?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Now, if we go to the next page in e-court, and if we just

10 open the hard copy to the next page, which is 0648-6773, is what we have

11 displayed here the flip side or the opposite side of that cardboard cover

12 page?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, if we go to the next page -- actually, let's just stay on

15 here for one quick sec. I note here there is a date of 15 July 1995 and

16 that you've written this on the back of the cover. Is that in

17 chronological order or does that reference something you wrote down at a

18 different time?

19 A. This is not in a chronological order. This was noted on the 15th

20 of July, in the course of our preparations for active combat around Zepa.

21 These are channels and code numbers for the links to those who were my

22 immediate contacts. I used the flip side of the cover page to note that

23 all the way down to the 0, if you can see that, something that looks like

24 a bull's eye. This is my note of the frequencies that were used; 147275,

25 Veljko was 101; Srna, which was a code unit -- code name of a unit, had

Page 8612

1 different code; and finally Vuk Kosoric had his own channels and I could

2 communicate with him by radio on the channels indicated here.

3 You see Dr. Mira Djeric. Everything up to there was noted on the

4 15th of July. The second part, the bottom part, starting with Dr. Mira

5 Djeric and the telephone numbers, if you allow me to explain the page to

6 you, Dr. Mira Djeric was a doctor who worked in the military hospital

7 where I was hospitalised after having been wounded. Her husband, Miso,

8 and you can see his number here, he's also a doctor, a neuropsychiatrist,

9 in the same hospital. I noted their home number and also the telephone

10 number of Dr. Stojanovic, who admitted me when I was first brought to the

11 hospital, as well as the director of the hospital, Dr. Tausan's number.

12 But that bottom part -- half of the page was filled while I was in the

13 hospital, which means that the bottom half of the page does not concern

14 the time when Srebrenica operation was underway because that was not

15 noted on the same day.

16 Q. So is it fair to say that you've just used this inside cover page

17 as some free space to jot down certain things as you needed them?

18 A. Precisely so, yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now if we go to the next page, which is 0648-6774, we see

20 here a date of 5 July 1995, and the number 1 in red ink. Can you tell us

21 what is going on on this page and what that red numbering is?

22 A. On this page, you can see that this page was filled in the Zeleni

23 Jadar sector, which is where the unit arrived from the Defence sector,

24 and that shows the strength of my unit. And of those who were also

25 deployed there, you can see Sekovici, 140. That is the numerical

Page 8613

1 strength of my unit, and all of the other units of the brigade. And

2 number 1 in red was entered once the pages came loose. I put them back

3 together and then I marked them in red in order to have the pages in the

4 right chronological order, to reflect the flow of events that are

5 described in the notebook, the events that took place during the relevant

6 period of time.

7 Q. Okay. And if we could just go to the next page, which is

8 0648-6775.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There is a technical problem again. Sorry for

10 that.

11 MR. THAYER: We can work with the hard copies in the meantime,

12 Mr. President, we all have them in front of us.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed.

14 MR. THAYER:

15 Q. So if we look at 0648-6775, I take it that that is the flip side

16 or the other side of the page we just looked at which you had marked with

17 the number 1 at the top; is that fair to say? Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, the flip side of the first page, to put it that way: The

19 following page depicts number 2. It may have been an error on my part.

20 I marked the pages but only on its front side, not on its flip side. And

21 that's how it goes in the notebook all the way to the end.

22 Q. That's exactly what needed to be explained.

23 MR. THAYER: And we are now, Mr. President, at the end of the

24 day. Mr. President, I did have some substantive questions for the diary.

25 It's taken a little longer to explain it. So I will, with the Court's