Page 8960
1 Wednesday, 15 December 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody. Like the last days,
6 we are sitting only with two judges, pursuant to Rule 15 bis. I suppose
7 the next witness is ready. He should be brought in, please.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Boering. Welcome to the
10 Tribunal, to the courtroom. I hope you will receive Dutch
11 interpretation. Very good. Would you please read aloud the affirmation
12 on the card which is shown to you now.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: PIETER BOERING
16 {Witness answered through Interpreter]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
18 Mr. Thayer has questions for you. Mr. Thayer.
19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you and
20 Your Honours; good afternoon to the Defence; good afternoon, everyone,
21 and particularly to our Dutch interpreters. Always nice to have them
22 with us.
23 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
24 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Would you please state your name for the
25 record.
Page 8961
1 A. Piet Boering.
2 Q. And sir, do you recall testifying in this courtroom over a period
3 of six days in September of 2006?
4 A. Yes, I remember that well.
5 Q. And did you recently read that testimony, which was in the
6 Popovic case?
7 A. Yes. I reviewed that.
8 Q. And can you attest that the transcripts that you reviewed
9 accurately reflect what you said during your testimony in the Popovic
10 case?
11 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, it describes accurately what took
12 place.
13 Q. And can you attest before this Trial Chamber that were you asked
14 the same questions today that you were asked back in September of 2006,
15 that your answers would be the same?
16 A. Well, basically, yes, but as things go further into the past,
17 they become harder to remember.
18 Q. Okay. And with that small qualification, can you attest that, to
19 the best of your ability and to your knowledge and your recollection, if
20 you were asked the same questions today that you were asked back in 2006,
21 that your answers would be the same?
22 A. Yes, I assume that to be the case.
23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter
24 numbers 6686 and 6687, the witness's prior testimony in the Popovic case,
25 6686 being under seal. And if I may make one correction to the dates
Page 8962
1 that were listed on the Prosecution's exhibit list. The dates of his
2 testimony were the 19th, 21st, 22nd, 25th, 26th, and 27th of September,
3 2006.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. These two documents will be received
5 into evidence, the first one under seal.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. 65 ter 06686 shall be given
7 Exhibit P01460 under seal, while 65 ter 06687 shall be given Exhibit
8 P01461. Thank you, Your Honours.
9 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution does have a number of
10 associated exhibits to tender with respect to this witness. I trust that
11 the Trial Chamber and court officers have a copy of the Prosecution's
12 exhibit list, which was distributed sometime ago.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, this is the list we received with all
14 the exhibits you're tendering. These -- the documents will be received
15 starting from 65 ter 06073, because the first one is already an exhibit,
16 going through to the last one, 03331. These are the exhibits associated
17 with the transcript in Popovic. They will be received and the Registry
18 will provide you with the P numbers by e-mail in due course.
19 I have to correct myself. Not by e-mail but by an internal memo.
20 MR. THAYER: And Mr. President, if I may address the final
21 category of exhibits on the exhibit list, beginning with 6656, we will
22 not be tendering that statement of another witness. That's already been
23 -- the small portion from that statement was already read into the
24 record. I think it's unnecessary to admit that or tender that. The
25 video still of the sign taken from the building in Srebrenica is already
Page 8963
1 part of the record through the Fontana video; and the UNMO report dated 9
2 July, again, the relevant portion was read fully into the record; and
3 with respect to that final map 5, that is identical to map 5 in the map
4 book in this case, which is Exhibit P104, So it's essentially the same as
5 another document which has already been admitted.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this information. And the video
7 still, 65 ter 00426, is already an exhibit, P1136.
8 MR. THAYER: Correct, Mr. President, yes.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please.
10 MR. THAYER: I have a 92 ter summary for the witness.
11 The witness arrived in Srebrenica on 3 January 1995 as part of
12 DutchBat. He held the rank of major and served as a liaison officer with
13 the ABiH and VRS, the civilian leadership on both sides, and NGOs such as
14 MSF, ICRC and UNHCR.
15 VRS officers he met included Drina Corps commander General
16 Zivanovic, Bratunac Brigade Major Momir Nikolic, with whom he met every
17 two weeks, and Skelani Brigade commander Colonel Vukovic. The witness
18 also met Colonel Beara twice, once between March and April, and once
19 between May and June. Beara was interested in Naser Oric's whereabouts
20 and role, and the structure of the ABiH.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, sorry for interrupting you. Perhaps
22 it's better you use the other microphone because everybody will hear the
23 sound of the typing on that table and this is perhaps a problem,
24 especially for the interpreters.
25 MR. THAYER: Ms. Stewart is continuing her memoirs.
Page 8964
1 ABiH officers he met included Commander Naser Oric, Chief of
2 Staff Ramiz Becirovic, Ekrem, a security officer who was sometimes in
3 charge in Oric and Becirovic's absence, and Zulfo Tursunovic, who was the
4 independent leader in the Bandera Triangle. The witness met with the
5 ABiH leaders about once a week, but Becirovic quickly took over for Oric,
6 whom the witness did not see after early or mid-February. Topics
7 discussed included disarming people seen with weapons, smuggling, and
8 maintenance of the weapons in the weapon collection point.
9 The witness also described DutchBat's efforts to disarm people
10 with weapons inside the enclave, smuggling of weapons and helicopter
11 flights into the enclave, and complaints from the VRS about ABiH raids
12 launched from inside the enclave outside the enclave.
13 The witness described the humanitarian situation in the enclave
14 and the deteriorating security situation in the months prior to the VRS
15 attack in July 1995. In June, there were more shootings from the Serbian
16 side into the enclave, and he received reports of people being injured
17 and killed from the leadership of the local population and the hospitals.
18 The situation deteriorated and people became more insecure and drew
19 closer to each other within the city of Srebrenica.
20 The witness also described the effects of VRS convoy restrictions
21 on DutchBat. In addition, starting in late May and early June, DutchBat
22 peacekeepers also faced direct fire at their vehicles, targeting just in
23 front of or behind them, when leaving the compound.
24 The witness described the events during the VRS attack on the
25 enclave, including the movement of the civilian population into
Page 8965
1 Srebrenica, the shelling of the Bravo Company compound in Srebrenica, the
2 movement of the population from Srebrenica to the DutchBat compound in
3 Potocari, the three Hotel Fontana meetings, the boarding of buses at
4 Potocari on 12 July, being forced at gunpoint out of the "White House,"
5 separations of men near the Potocari compound as well as at the buses
6 there, accompanying the first convoy to Kladanj and witnessing men being
7 separated off of one of the buses near Tisca in the direction of the
8 woods by Milici Brigade soldiers in the presence of Major Sarkic.
9 Q. Sir, I have some follow-up questions concerning some things
10 you've said in your prior testimony and statements. First, can you just
11 tell the Trial Chamber, are you still in active service in the military;
12 and if so, what's your rank and your current position or function?
13 A. Well, I'm still in the Dutch military. At this point, I'm -- at
14 this point I have a different rank. I'm not a colonel yet.
15 I'm presently working in Enschede at the centre of excellence in the
16 cooperation between military and civilians in -- within NATO, in the EU,
17 and I've just returned from a seven-month mission in Kabul, at the
18 headquarters. My rank is lieutenant-colonel.
19 Q. Okay. I just want to go through a number of small quick topics,
20 just to add some detail to some issues that the Trial Chamber has heard a
21 little bit about already. In 1995, during your tour in Srebrenica, can
22 you describe, just briefly, the division of labour between you and
23 Sergeant Major Rave.
24 A. Generally, we would go off together and would prepare the
25 discussions and meetings about the situation, and we would also compile
Page 8966
1 the reports together. You might say that my role was more that of civil
2 -- maintaining civilian contacts and being the liaison officer as well,
3 and Sergeant Rave's tasks highlighted intelligence more. But both areas
4 were necessary to maintain an overall impression.
5 Q. So, in fact, were both of you essentially serving in a liaison
6 capacity? Is that fair to say?
7 A. Yes. You could put it that way.
8 Q. Now, in the Popovic trial - and this is at transcript page 1869 -
9 you described a speech which General Zivanovic gave early upon your
10 arrival in the enclave in early 1995. Can you tell the Trial Chamber in
11 as much detail as you can, what General Zivanovic said. In the Popovic
12 trial you didn't go into very much detail, and if you could provide a
13 little bit more detail, as best you can remember, about what it was that
14 he said, that would be helpful, I think, for the Trial Chamber.
15 A. I can still remember those meetings that General Zivanovic
16 attended. I remember that he made it clear that, in his view, the
17 Srebrenica enclave should be returned to the Serbs, especially because he
18 had lived there and he felt that he had a right to live safely there
19 again and, in his view, that was not possible at this time. And he
20 believed that we were -- we figured in that situation as well.
21 Q. And do you recall what, if anything, he told you would happen if
22 the enclave were not demilitarised?
23 A. What I remember is that he insisted that we had a role in that
24 process, and if we couldn't fulfil that, then conceivably they would have
25 to do it themselves.
Page 8967
1 Q. Okay. Let me see if I can jog your memory about a couple more
2 details about what he said. If we could have 65 ter 6690, please.
3 Sir, what we have up on the screen is your signed witness
4 statement from February of 1998. Do you remember meeting with OTP
5 investigators in February of 1998 and providing a statement?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we could go to page 3 in both the original and B/C/S, we see
8 in the first full paragraph in English, it's a paragraph that begins,
9 "General Zivanovic delivered a long speech during the reception ..." Do
10 you see that paragraph, sir?
11 A. Yes. I can see it.
12 Q. And the second sentence reads:
13 "He also said that the enclave had to be demilitarised by
14 DutchBat, otherwise it would be razed to the ground."
15 Do you recall General Zivanovic saying that during the speech,
16 Colonel?
17 A. I remember that he became very emotional and very angry and that
18 he was aggressive in his statements, and the terms as it reads here
19 convey that well.
20 Q. And, sir, these words "razed to the ground," are those your words
21 or are those General Zivanovic's words?
22 A. If I remember clearly, those were his words. Certainly not my
23 words.
24 Q. Okay. Let's move to another topic. Sir, do you recall the
25 Yellow Bridge check-point that was manned by the VRS nearby the DutchBat
Page 8968
1 OP-Papa?
2 A. Yes. I remember that.
3 Q. Do you remember whether there was one VRS soldier in particular
4 who manned that check-point; and if so, what his name was?
5 A. Yes. I spent a lot of time with that individual that was the
6 local commandant, Jovo, a former secondary school teacher, if I remember
7 correctly. He was somewhat older.
8 Q. Okay. Next topic: You testified about one of the UN
9 interpreters who was employed in July of 1995, a young man who was
10 Serbian by the name of Petar. Do you recall him and testifying about him
11 in the last trial, sir?
12 A. I remember him all too well. I remember that he spent time in
13 Bratunac, especially in Bratunac. Specifically what I stated about him
14 doesn't come to mind at this time. He was present at most of the
15 meetings, and he regularly exchanged messages with me, so he was a
16 relatively important contact for me.
17 Q. And do you remember learning or hearing that Petar was related to
18 anyone in particular?
19 A. Well, yes. He was a relative, I believe but I'm not positive at
20 this time, I believe he was related to Major Nikolic.
21 Q. And when you refer to Major Nikolic, you're referring to Momir
22 Nikolic of the Bratunac Brigade; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. I mean Momir Nikolic of the Bratunac Brigade, and we had
24 regular contact to a lesser extent with him too. But he was the direct
25 contact for the VRS, the Republika Srpska, among the officers. He was
Page 8969
1 our regular contact among the officers, our point of contact there.
2 Q. Okay. Next topic, sir: When you first met Colonel Beara, and
3 you testified in Popovic about your contacts, who introduced you to
4 Colonel Beara?
5 A. If I remember correctly, Major Nikolic, Momir Nikolic, was
6 present there.
7 Q. And did Momir Nikolic indicate to you what Colonel Beara's
8 function or position was?
9 A. No. With respect to both his own position and those of others,
10 other members of the military, Momir Nikolic was very closed, and if you
11 asked him, for example, what his own position was, he would become very
12 disconcerted, agitated, angry. He didn't want that question.
13 Q. And based on your contacts with Colonel Beara, did you form an
14 impression or a conclusion, based on those contacts, about what Colonel
15 Beara's function was in the VRS?
16 A. Well, extensive conversations with Colonel Beara, once at Jovo
17 and then again in Fontana, especially the second time, it became clear
18 that Colonel Beara was focused on acquiring information about military
19 operations, structures, the stay of Naser Oric, helicopter movements.
20 The first time he came to OP-Papa, I remember he was more
21 forthcoming about possible planning of operations and that these things
22 had to happen and that, later on, we would be grateful to the VRS for
23 that. He indicated that in very general terms.
24 Q. So based on those conversations and what he was telling you, did
25 you have or did you draw any conclusions about what his -- what Colonel
Page 8970
1 Beara's actual function or position was, what kind of an officer he was
2 in the VRS?
3 A. Well, you could clearly tell that he was higher in rank than the
4 Bratunac Brigade, and even higher up in the staff than Zivanovic. When
5 I spoke with him, Momir Nikolic would -- would keep to the background and
6 would not cooperate with the conversation at all.
7 Q. And were you able to gain any impression of what or to which
8 organ of the VRS Colonel Beara belonged?
9 A. Well, I conveyed that information to my own headquarters, with
10 the names, and I don't remember providing any feedback about his role and
11 function. But that he was affiliated with the higher levels, conceivably
12 with the higher military institutions, that was very clear. He dealt
13 with the institutions in Pale.
14 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall that DutchBat had a contract with the
15 Hotel Fontana to obtain food and beverages?
16 A. Yes, I remember that, and according to that contract, we would
17 try once a week to have a truck load full of soft drinks, cigarettes, and
18 perhaps other food, we would try to buy that, because our own provisions
19 were too limited. This was because the supply of all kinds of provisions
20 was blocked by clearances that were not issued or were issued in very
21 limited measure by the VRS.
22 Q. Okay. And before we turn to the events of July 1995, sir, just
23 one additional question: You provided some more detail a moment ago
24 about General Zivanovic's speech and what he said the VRS would do to
25 Srebrenica if the enclave were not demilitarised. I want to read a
Page 8971
1 question and answer that you gave during an interview with NIOD on
2 September -- I beg your pardon, 17 December 2001. We don't need to put
3 it on e-court, it's not on our exhibit list, I'm just going to read it to
4 you. I've advised the Defence about this particular provision. You were
5 asked, and this is at page 41, paragraphs 679 and 680, you were asked:
6 "Were there also warnings sometimes during the contacts with the
7 Bosnian Serbs? We talked about it a little last time but were there
8 specific warnings?"
9 And your answer was:
10 "Warnings? In any case, there was very often the offer. You can
11 leave the enclave with as many women and children as possible, and I
12 believe men too, as long as they are not soldiers. There is no point in
13 you staying here. It has to come to an end. Threats, such as We will
14 get it back again, yes, the first message, this is ours, they have no
15 business here, was at the beginning of January, with Zivanovic who was
16 very emotional. I was born here and this is my place. They have no
17 business here."
18 Let me just stop right there. In this answer, sir, where you
19 were referring to General Zivanovic, is this the same speech that you
20 told us about a few moments ago?
21 A. If you're referring to the fact that offers were regularly made
22 for the population to leave the enclave freely, yes, that offer was made
23 repeatedly by different individuals.
24 Q. Such as? If you can recall.
25 A. Well, I think it would have been Beara, Nikolic -- Momir Nikolic
Page 8972
1 -- Zivanovic. It was a regularly recurring topic of conversation.
2 Q. Okay. And you go on in your answer and you say:
3 "And then there was reasoning as to whether or not this is my
4 territory. Later, like I already said on Friday, on one occasion during
5 Easter, an unfamiliar colonel-type man from Pale said, and I quote,
6 'You'll be grateful to us. Be calm, we'll settle this, this is our
7 territory after all.'"
8 Can you tell us anything more about this colonel from Pale? Do
9 you have any recollection about a name or function? If not, that's fine.
10 I'll just move on.
11 A. This is the individual mentioned earlier in this interrogation,
12 Colonel Beara.
13 Q. Okay. And finally in your answer, you state:
14 "Also, conversations during the visits to the hospital, the
15 director of the hospital, who had a lot of drink on board, then you could
16 notice that there was enormous hatred, racism or whatever you want to
17 call it," and here you're quoting this individual, and I quote, "They
18 have no right to exist, they have to be killed off." And then you
19 continue your answer:
20 "No remorse whatsoever if that happened."
21 Now my first question to you, sir, is do you recall this
22 conversation with this person from the hospital? And does the answer
23 that I just read to you accurately reflect what this person said?
24 A. I remember that visit to that hospital, the tenor of his
25 discourse, and I assume that he did, in fact, say something like that.
Page 8973
1 Hate was clearly present, especially from what I remember in that
2 hospital over there. Many deliberate abortions were performed.
3 I remember the population couldn't adequately take care of babies, and he
4 indicated that that was certainly not happening in the enclave, and he
5 thought it was horrible that the population in the enclave was growing,
6 and that the activities were increasing --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me: The threats were increasing.
8 Q. And when you refer to the population not being able to take care
9 of babies, are you referring to the Serb population or the Muslim
10 population inside the enclave?
11 A. I'm referring to the hospital where abortions were taking place,
12 that was outside the enclave in Bratunac. I'm referring to the Serb
13 population. So outside the enclave.
14 Q. And just to be specific, the director to whom you were speaking,
15 which hospital was he the director of?
16 A. He was the director of the hospital in Bratunac. We were
17 visiting there to find out whether we could provide some kind of support
18 in any way.
19 Q. Now, the words in your answer, and I quote again, "They have no
20 right to exist. They have to be killed off," are those your words or are
21 those his words, sir?
22 A. Those were his words.
23 Q. Okay. Let's turn to the events in July 1995.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, just for the sake of the record,
25 could you please put the 65 ter exhibit number on the record, of the
Page 8974
1 document you have read out to the witness many parts of it.
2 MR. THAYER: For this document, Mr. President, this is not on the
3 65 ter list. I advised the Defence beforehand that I would be reading
4 this one paragraph from it, but it's been disclosed for some time but not
5 on the 65 ter list.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on.
7 MR. THAYER:
8 Q. Now, I want to turn your attention to the 11th of July, when the
9 civilian population was moving from the town of Srebrenica up to
10 Potocari. You testified in the Krstic trial - and this is at transcript
11 page 1161, for the Defence - that the population, in your words or word,
12 was "expelled" from Srebrenica to Potocari. What did you mean by saying
13 that they were expelled from Srebrenica to Potocari, Colonel?
14 A. What I mean by that is that the city of Srebrenica was jam-packed
15 with people, Muslims. From what I could see, they had been driven out of
16 the areas around Srebrenica into the city, in the hope of being able to
17 stay there safely. And in the city, around the 10th, the situation also
18 was perceived as too threatening, and grenades were dropped here and
19 there, there was shooting, and reports of attacks by Serbs on the city of
20 Srebrenica circulated among the population. Also, the impression of the
21 DutchBat units was that purges were taking place, so the population in
22 the city felt too unsafe and hoped for protection in the -- at the actual
23 DutchBat camp in Potocari because, in the city of Srebrenica, there was a
24 small company of DutchBat but nearby at least one grenade attack took
25 place, so it wasn't safe there either and it was, in any case, too small.
Page 8975
1 Q. And, sir, when you use the word "grenade," what are you talking
2 about; a hand grenade or some other type of explosive?
3 A. I mean a different type of explosive; mortar grenades.
4 Q. Okay. Let's turn for a few moments to the Hotel Fontana meetings
5 which you attended and testified about at some length in the last trial.
6 Before you entered the first meeting, you testified that you managed to
7 make your way into the room where a number of DutchBat peacekeepers were
8 being held hostage. Can you describe the appearance of those
9 peacekeepers for the Trial Chamber, sir. What was their situation? How
10 did they look to you? Could you provide a little bit more detail than
11 you did in the Popovic trial?
12 A. I remember that in a room there was a group of about ten DutchBat
13 servicemen who were -- they did not have any freedom of movement. They
14 were in a room, and at the exit was an armed Serb, and he had to be
15 there. They were seated at tables and were supposed to be served a meal.
16 They indicated that they were the people from the observation posts who
17 had been taken by the Serbs and subsequently involuntarily transported to
18 Bratunac. So these were soldiers who were not free to move: Their
19 vehicle had been taken from them, their materials had been taken from
20 them, and they felt threatened. And of course, before they had been
21 taken a prisoner of war by the Serbs, so to speak, they had also been
22 confronted with targeted attacks by the Serbs, who had shot at them, and
23 they were overpowered by the adversary. So they were certainly in a well
24 -- in a state, they felt threatened, desperate. They hoped that they
25 would be allowed to leave with us but they weren't.
Page 8976
1 Q. Okay. In your Popovic testimony, you testified about when you
2 first arrived at the meeting, that there were some VRS officers and
3 Mladic driving Colonel Karremans into a corner and that you tried to
4 create some space. Can you again just provide the Trial Chamber with a
5 little bit more detail about what you did in these circumstances.
6 A. Lieutenant Colonel Karremans was there with Sergeant Major Rave
7 in a corner. They were pressed into the corner, with a -- they were
8 surrounded by a great many Serb military. There was a camera crew
9 present, and it was made clear by Mladic that he was in charge and that
10 he could do anything he wanted with us. So at that point he was clearly
11 heaping threats upon threats.
12 Q. And so physically, sir, what, if anything, did you do to create
13 space, as you put it in the last trial?
14 A. Well, you try to create additional space and to push people aside
15 a bit, and I tried to do that.
16 Q. Okay. Now, you referred, in your Popovic testimony, to a VRS
17 officer by the name of Kosovic or Kosoric. I think you used both names
18 in your prior testimony. Can you describe him physically for the Trial
19 Chamber, please. Was there anything notable that you recall about his
20 physical appearance?
21 A. Well, he had a normal build, but bold, a big mustache, a tattoo
22 of an anchor or a mortar on his arm, and he smoked a cigarette pipe
23 shaped like a mortar shell, was engraved in that. He was clearly
24 recognisable.
25 Q. And when you refer to a "cigarette pipe," are you referring to a
Page 8977
1 cigarette holder, sir, sort of the old-fashioned cigarette holder that
2 you insert a cigarette into the end of?
3 A. Yes, that's exactly what I mean.
4 Q. What did you understand his role to be at that time and over the
5 next day or so?
6 A. He was, in fact, involved in planning and carrying out convoys to
7 drive the Muslim population out of the enclave. He was the logistics
8 person in charge of organising the buses, trucks, transport.
9 Q. And do you recall from whom you received authorisation or
10 permission on the ground to escort that first convoy that you testified
11 about in Popovic?
12 A. He was certainly present with the first convoy, Popovic, and so
13 was Mladic, and a vehicle was to ride in the front and at the rear.
14 Kosovic was present -- excuse me, it's not Popovic, it's Kosovic. I see
15 that I misstated a name.
16 Q. Okay. And when you say that Mladic was present with the first
17 convoy, do you mean he was present with the first convoy in Potocari or
18 do you mean that Mladic accompanied the first convoy with you and Kosovic
19 or Kosoric?
20 A. Kosovic accompanied the first convoy. Mladic was present at the
21 departure.
22 Q. And was Colonel Kosoric or Kosovic's presence any kind of factor
23 in the convoy's ability to cross through check-points as the convoy made
24 its way from Potocari to Tisca?
25 A. I think that he was one of the organisers responsible for
Page 8978
1 ensuring that the convoy would take place as quickly as possible.
2 I remember that at a certain point we stopped because there was a
3 conflict, there was shooting in the area, it was unsafe, and if
4 I remember correctly, he was involved in resolving the matter as quickly
5 as possible.
6 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I see that I have just met my one
7 hour estimate. I have just a couple more questions. With the Court's
8 indulgence, if I could complete my examination. I just have a couple
9 more questions and topics along this line.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is really an improvement, Mr. Thayer. Go
11 ahead, please.
12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Now, in your experience, sir, during your tour of duty with
14 DutchBat, how easy was it to travel across VRS-held territory?
15 A. It was virtually impossible for us to drive around freely. A
16 route would be released through a clearance at certain times, and we were
17 not allowed to deviate from that. Even if you had a clearance and a
18 section of time, even then there could be disturbances to that.
19 Q. And in your experience, how often would you hit check-points?
20 Was it a common occurrence or an uncommon occurrence?
21 A. I didn't drive around that much myself in the area where the VRS
22 might have set up check-points, but along the route with the refugees, in
23 Kladanj, we ultimately encountered a few check-points.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me: On the way to Kladanj.
25 MR. THAYER:
Page 8979
1 Q. Okay. And on this trip, do you recall it being of any help, in
2 terms of passing through those check-points, to have an officer such as
3 this Colonel Kosovic or Kosoric with you?
4 A. Well, I think that he was the driving force.
5 Q. Okay. Just a couple more questions, sir. You testified about a
6 Colonel Jankovic, who was present at the Fontana meetings. Did anyone
7 inform you what his role was at the time and was going to be over the
8 next day or so?
9 A. If I remember correctly, at the first meeting in Fontana, Mladic
10 and Jankovic were present, and Mladic, at the start of the meeting,
11 introduced Colonel Jankovic as his support, somebody who had studied law
12 and was very capable of handling all matters in a legally appropriate
13 manner, and over the course of the days that followed, perhaps Mladic
14 wouldn't be present because he had other affairs to handle, and that from
15 then on, the command would be entrusted to Colonel Jankovic.
16 Q. Okay. Let's just quickly look at some photographs. If we could
17 have P624 -- and actually, let me withdraw that. Let's not show P624.
18 Just for the record, Mr. President, I'm going to ask, as we've done in
19 previous cases, the witness to look at two photographs that are in P624,
20 which is the video stills book. The Trial Chamber will remember that
21 that has the identities listed, so we are now going to show the witness
22 through Sanction the underlying photographs without the identifications
23 and I'm just going to ask Colonel Boering to make some identifications.
24 And we are first talking about page 27, just for the record, of
25 that P624, and Ms. Stewart will show us an image. And it has the ERN
Page 8980
1 0291-6181.
2 Sir, do you recognise anyone in this photograph?
3 A. I recognise both General Mladic and Colonel Jankovic to the
4 right, or, rather, to his left.
5 Q. Just to be clear, Jankovic is sitting to the left of General
6 Mladic. Is that what you just told us?
7 A. That's what I said.
8 Q. And if we may have the next photograph, and this is page 37 of
9 P624, can you identify anyone in this photograph that you recall, sir?
10 And let's start from the left, moving towards the right of the image.
11 A. I'm the one wearing the T-shirt there. Next to me is the
12 spokesman for the women, Camila, and next to her, a representative of the
13 men, Nuhanovic, and at the head of the table, with the mustache, is the
14 man we mentioned earlier, Kosovic, who was chiefly involved in logistics.
15 And then you see some heads, mainly of the civilians working for the
16 police and the municipal authorities of Bratunac, if I remember
17 correctly.
18 Q. Okay. For the record, this is ERN 0291-6189. Thank you, we are
19 done with that exhibit.
20 Now, you testified in Popovic that Mladic mentioned screenings or
21 separations of men, certainly you said during the third Fontana meeting,
22 if not earlier. Did General Mladic mention any particular age range?
23 A. He mentioned the age group of men from age 16 to age 60.
24 Q. Okay. And for my last question, Colonel, you spoke about, in
25 your witness statement that we had on the screen earlier, and this is at
Page 8981
1 page 11 of the English and 10 of the B/C/S, just for the record, do you
2 remember an encounter between General Mladic and the director of MSF?
3 And we don't need to put her name on the record, but do you remember an
4 encounter between General Mladic and that person in Potocari on the 12th
5 of July? And if so, can you just describe for the Trial Chamber the
6 circumstances of that encounter.
7 A. Yes, I remember her. I also remember what her envisaged role was
8 and that she did not get that leeway at all from General Mladic. I'll
9 start by describing her role. At the time, the transport, the buses and
10 trucks had arrived to evacuate the Muslim population, and the idea was
11 that first the injured and the sick would be evacuated, and she was a
12 strong advocate of that, in part at the request of Lieutenant-Colonel
13 Karremans, and that message she tried to convey to General Mladic was not
14 accepted at all. She was told to mind her own business and to watch out.
15 She was basically threatened because things would be taken care of anyway
16 and her involvement wasn't requested and was certainly not necessary and
17 was definitely not appreciated.
18 Q. And do you recall stating in your witness statement, and I quote:
19 "He said that she better keep out of it, otherwise he could do
20 anything to her he wanted"?
21 Do you remember General Mladic saying that to her?
22 A. I was there, and he did, in fact, threaten her. I remember that.
23 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Colonel. I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Sir, now Mr. Tolimir is
25 commencing his cross-examination. Mr. Tolimir.
Page 8982
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
2 like to greet all those present. I would like for peace to reign in this
3 house, and I hope these proceedings today end not as I will but as God
4 wills.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
6 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to welcome the witness and thank
7 him for testifying today. Sir, we are going to start with the last
8 question that Mr. Thayer put to you today. He asked you on page 22, line
9 18, were you present when General Mladic said that he could do anything
10 to her? In your last answer, on page 22, line 15, you said, "I remember
11 he threatened her." Can you please tell us, did he state the words that
12 Mr. Thayer used in his question, or do you just recollect that in some
13 way he threatened her? Thank you.
14 A. At this time, I certainly don't remember the exact words, but
15 they were definitely words with this clear intent.
16 Q. Thank you. On page 20, line 2, Mr. Thayer asked you whether
17 there was any help during crossing of the check-points. You had an
18 officer with you like General Kosoric or Kosovic, I'm not sure which
19 surname he used. My question is: This colonel who was with you, by the
20 name of Kosoric or Kosovic, who was with you, I'm not sure, was it his
21 task also to take the column safely through the territory of Republika
22 Srpska? Thank you.
23 A. What the -- what would be done and where we were going was not
24 made clear to us at the start; who was responsible and who arranged
25 everything, that was the VRS under the aegis of Kosovic.
Page 8983
1 Q. Thank you. Did he organise that or was this agreed at the
2 meeting in Fontana? Are you able to tell this to the Trial Chamber?
3 Arranged between the representatives of the army and the representatives
4 of the Muslim civilian population that were going from Republika Srpska
5 through the Republic of Croatia to the Federation. Thank you.
6 A. At the meeting in Fontana, it was agreed that the population
7 could leave the enclave safely and that this would happen under escort by
8 DutchBat. The exact details were not elaborated at that meeting, at
9 least not as far as I remember. When we returned from the meeting in
10 Fontana, I asked Lieutenant Colonel Karremans about the specifics of the
11 transport agreements. This was not clear to him either. And
12 subsequently, after consulting Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, I returned
13 to Fontana to sort out the details or obtain them so that we could focus
14 our approach. Upon my arrival in Fontana, I encountered Momir Nikolic
15 and he said to me, "What are you doing here? You have no business here.
16 Everything has been settled sometime ago. Don't worry." And by then,
17 the buses and trucks were already crossing Bratunac toward Potocari.
18 So to get back to your question as to exactly what was agreed at
19 the meeting in Fontana, yes, agreements were reached there but not very
20 clear ones.
21 Q. Thank you. Were you present at that meeting in Fontana, you and
22 Colonel Kosoric who left with the first group of the population that was
23 evacuating Srebrenica and going to Kladanj? Thank you.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. In the discussions between the civilian
Page 8984
1 representatives and the army, was the name of Kladanj mentioned at all?
2 Thank you.
3 A. I was present at those conversations. The interpreter, Petar,
4 was seated a bit away from me, so I wasn't fully able to follow some of
5 the discussion.
6 Q. Thank you. And was Mr. Nikolic present at the meeting, whom you
7 refer -- to whom you refer in your statement? This is 65 ter 0673. Can
8 we show the witness that statement, please. You talk about that on page
9 7, paragraph 3.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
11 MR. THAYER: Just to clarify, that's 6703.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can see that
14 statement. Can we see page 7 now in the Serbian, and Aleksandar will say
15 the page number in English. Thank you.
16 We can see paragraph 3. I can see it, where you talk about how
17 you returned with Nikolic, and then at the end you say, "He was not able
18 to tell us how many buses would be available." Perhaps you can look at
19 that part in the English and the interpreter then will translate it back
20 to you.
21 Can we show page 7 in the English, please, paragraph 3. And we
22 can see that now. This is that paragraph, the last paragraph where they
23 talk about 1400 hours. Aleksandar, please, can you please tell us what
24 page that is? Thank you.
25 So the question is did Nikolic tell you - I'm quoting - in the
Page 8985
1 last sentence --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
3 MR. THAYER: In English, it's the top of page 8 I think is where
4 General Tolimir wants to be. It's the top of page 8, referring to the
5 12th of July.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
7 Q. In the last sentence, the -- Nikolic told you, I quote, "He could
8 not tell me how many buses would be available."
9 Based on what you wrote in your statement, could we conclude that
10 Nikolic didn't know this either, just like you didn't, and Kosoric?
11 A. No. I would not assume that.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you say what I quoted back to you, "He was not --
13 he could not tell me how many buses would be available"? This is
14 something that I read from page 7, paragraph 3. Thank you.
15 And can I ask the interpreter to read to you in Dutch the last
16 sentence on page 7, paragraph 3. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was translated, interpreted to the witness in
18 Dutch. Whatever you are reading will be interpreted.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Well, you said that. I didn't say it. I mean, your answer now,
22 when you said that you would not assume that, is that now a contradiction
23 in terms of what you said earlier in your statement? Thank you.
24 A. I would say that it's not a contradiction.
25 Q. All right. Thank you very much.
Page 8986
1 A. [Previous translation continues] ... say that Nikolic did not
2 know.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to clarify this. It seems to be a
4 confusion at the moment. We see in this paragraph of your statement to
5 the OTP of 1995, and I quote, "He could not tell me how many buses would
6 be available." And Mr. Tolimir wants to know if that is true that this
7 man Mr. Nikolic couldn't tell you how many buses would be available or if
8 you know anything about that.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived there and sought
10 Nikolic, no interpreter was present and it was very difficult to talk
11 with Nikolic. In any case, he indicated that aside from how the
12 statement reads there, from what I remember, the number of buses -- that
13 he didn't know that, but that there would be buses and there would be
14 transport and, "Get lost because it's going to happen anyway now."
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you ask him about the number of buses
16 available for the transportation?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked him, of course, for details
18 about buses and transport and other things, but he did not see any reason
19 to answer that.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Tolimir, please continue.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I think that this is not really of such importance, so we will
24 move on to something else. But I believe, and maybe you can help us,
25 that no one really knew at the time how many buses would arrive, and
Page 8987
1 would it have been the case, in fact, that depending on the number of
2 buses that did arrive, that number of civilians actually were put on the
3 buses and sent away? Thank you.
4 A. There was talk of several convoys until the population had been
5 evacuated, and how long it would take, that depended on fuel and
6 vehicles, and I remember that General Mladic had urged DutchBat to supply
7 fuel because the operation would require a lot of fuel.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we are running out of time. We are
9 over time already. We must have our first break now. I just wanted to
10 give you the opportunity to finish with this topic, but it's now
11 necessary to break.
12 But I would like to raise for a moment another question. I was
13 told that we could sit tomorrow in the morning instead of in the
14 afternoon, because the courtroom is available, another trial has
15 cancelled the sitting of tomorrow. Perhaps you can consider this
16 question during the break. There would be one real advantage, we don't
17 know if we are coming under time pressure at the end of this witness and
18 his testimony again, and the availability of the interpreters is of high
19 importance, and perhaps we can then be sure to finish this witness
20 tomorrow, if we are sitting in the morning instead of in the afternoon.
21 We come back to that later. Please consider that during the break.
22 We break now and resume 20 minutes past 4.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we first deal with the question of sitting
Page 8988
1 tomorrow in the morning or in the afternoon. What is the position of the
2 parties? Mr. Thayer?
3 MR. THAYER: We will be ready tomorrow morning, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. And Mr. Tolimir?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as we are
6 concerned, it is all right. The only issue is that if a document has not
7 already been entered in e-court, if we can be allowed to look them over
8 overnight because they have already been used in the Popovic case. And
9 the only reason -- my only problem is the e-court because I have to take
10 a look at all the documents that will need to be entered in e-court or
11 those that have already been entered into e-court. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment I'm not quite sure what your
13 concern is but I think Mr. Gajic will assist you, providing you with all
14 necessary documents, in e-court or in hard copy, as it was in the past
15 already. I think we --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. But I
17 have to read those documents in order to be able to formulate my
18 questions because I have to read them over again and see if I can
19 identify them. Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understand you very well, and that was the
21 reason why I raised this problem, because we are sitting in the afternoon
22 today and that would be a hearing tomorrow morning. The problem is --
23 are you objecting the move of the hearing to the morning or not? If you
24 are objecting, we have to consider your position.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I am not
Page 8989
1 objecting at all. I would like to help and be of assistance to the
2 interpreters, who should be available here, and I will try to cooperate
3 as much as I can. The only problem that I might have is to do with the
4 documents and the e-court. That's all. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The advantage of sitting in the morning, as
6 I already mentioned, that the interpreters will be here and we don't come
7 again in this situation that we have to adjourn and call the witness
8 again next year, with the interpreters. If we are sitting in the
9 afternoon, there is a clear time limit. If we are sitting in the
10 morning, there would be a possibility for an extended sitting to finish
11 the examination of this witness. Therefore, the Chamber is inclined to
12 sit in the morning instead of in the afternoon.
13 I take it that you are not objecting and therefore the Chamber
14 decides to sit in the morning and the preparations necessary for that can
15 be arranged.
16 Thank you very much.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Of course. Sorry, I didn't discuss it with you,
19 sir. Are you available tomorrow morning?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that sounds like a reasonable
21 question to me. I understand that it's more convenient to settle this.
22 I would have liked to have had a say in this, but I'll abide by your
23 ruling.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I apologise, not having asked you first. Of
25 course it is a question of your availability. Would it be possible for
Page 8990
1 you to appear tomorrow in the morning at 9.00 in the courtroom or not?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is, but to spend an entire
3 day here, that means that after the break we might continue?
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, this is not the idea of this decision. We
5 want to finish with your examination in the morning session, until 1.45,
6 but sometimes it happens that there are some additional questions,
7 especially in re-examination by the Prosecution, that we can sit, for
8 instance, half an hour longer, and that is only possible if we are
9 sitting in the morning and not in the afternoon. That's all. We want to
10 finish in time, at the end of the morning session.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I understood. Agreed.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 Mr. Tolimir, please continue your cross-examination.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. When we left off, we were talking about whether the
17 lieutenant-colonel or colonel who was with you was helpful when you
18 crossed over the territory of Republika Srpska, and my new question is:
19 Was his presence, the colonel's presence, Colonel Kosoric, was it of
20 assistance to you and to the convoy or not?
21 A. He was in command of the convoy, and I observed.
22 Q. Thank you. Well, was it logical for him to be in command of it
23 while you were going through Republika Srpska? Because he was not in
24 command while you were on the territory of the Federation. Thank you.
25 A. I don't understand what you mean by "the Federation."
Page 8991
1 Q. Well, I am referring to when you continued with the convoy on and
2 on the line of separation the colonel who had accompanied you until then
3 actually went back and you went on on your own. Thank you.
4 A. I don't understand the question, but of course the person in
5 charge of the convoy is responsible for it. When we arrived to proceed
6 to the line of separation, another individual was present, a liaison
7 officer, I believe, of the Militia Brigade [as interpreted]. If
8 I remember correctly, that was Major Sarkic, and I dealt with him there,
9 no longer with Colonel Kosovic.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
11 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we have, I think, a little problem
12 with the transcript, which we have very frequently with this particular
13 word that I believe the witness used, and it's at line 32 -- sorry, page
14 32, line 4, there is a reference to the Militia Brigade and I'm pretty
15 confident that's not the word he used. It's a difficult one to hear,
16 so ...
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Boering, you heard the comment on Mr. Thayer.
18 Could you clarify to which structure you were referring?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the militia
20 Brigade, that's a unit in the western -- that was present in the western
21 part, in the area where the convoy was, and from there I walked with the
22 refugees to Kladanj. The Milici Brigade, that's a unit in a certain area
23 just as in Bratunac you have a Bratunac Brigade.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, that was the problem. Now you were
25 referring to the Milici Brigade. Was it always the Milici Brigade you
Page 8992
1 were referring to or the Militia Brigade?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Milici.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That clarifies the
4 situation.
5 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. On page 17, line 17, Mr. Thayer asked you to tell him what you
9 knew about Colonel Kosovic, and on page 18, line 7, you said, "He
10 participated in planning, in the organisation of the convoy when the
11 Muslim population left, and he was in charge of organising the transport
12 and the logistics."
13 My question, based on what you said, is: Are you sure of what
14 you have said, that this colonel did, the colonel that Mr. Thayer asked
15 you about? Are you sure that that's what he was in charge of and that he
16 took part in organising the convoy and the evacuation of the civilian
17 population from Potocari to Kladanj? Thank you.
18 A. Yes. I'm certain of that, and I believe that he was even
19 proposed for that by General Mladic. He was introduced for that.
20 Q. Thank you. When was he proposed for that task by General Mladic?
21 Can you tell us, please?
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps this is again a translation issue.
23 I realise that the witness corrected the word "proposed" into
24 "introduced." Is that correct, Mr. Boering?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. And that
Page 8993
1 introduction, from what I remember, took place at the meeting in the
2 morning at 10.00 a.m., where the population representatives were present
3 and General Mladic.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Boering. Can you tell us, please, whether during
6 the meeting or before the meeting it was known what the decision by the
7 representatives of the Muslims would be and what the decision would be
8 that would issue or come as an issue out of this meeting that was held at
9 Hotel Fontana?
10 A. It was not my impression that the representatives of the Muslims
11 felt that they had the power to decide anything. That's why, after the
12 first round, when only one individual was present, he felt too insecure
13 and needed support and found such support in two other persons in the
14 population. In fact, the idea that they would be in a position to decide
15 anything, that was not relevant. It was more an attempt to try to
16 provide the population that was present with the best possible
17 humanitarian aid.
18 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us now who provided humanitarian aid
19 to the Muslim population? Thank you.
20 A. If we are talking about the situation of the local population,
21 then the prospects were indeed very grim; insufficient food, insufficient
22 medical supplies, and actual support was virtually non-existent because
23 convoys with aid provisions were denied permission.
24 Q. Thank you. Please answer my question. You said that the
25 population received some humanitarian aid. Who was it who provided
Page 8994
1 humanitarian aid to the population, in a situation where they were left
2 without anything, in order for them to get something? Who was it who
3 provided that?
4 A. The party providing aid was the UNHCR convoys.
5 Q. Thank you. I understand that you're referring to the situation
6 before Potocari, but who was it who provided humanitarian aid that you
7 referred to in the earlier -- in your earlier answer, when the population
8 was in Potocari?
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I would like to refer you to the
10 real answer that Mr. Boering gave, page 34, lines 12 to 14. He said, "It
11 was more an attempt to try to provide the population that was present
12 with the best possible humanitarian aid." He was talking about the
13 attempt. Perhaps that is the difference. Please continue.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for
15 clarifying this.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Boering, please tell us who made these attempts, who made the
18 effort to try and provide humanitarian aid to these people and in the
19 situation in which you found ourselves with such a great number of people
20 in Potocari?
21 A. Personally, I did not see any aid provisions entering after the
22 enclave fell. Not from UNHCR, not from any other party. The population
23 evacuated in the first convoy definitely did not have its primary needs
24 provided for upon its departure. They were rushed into vehicles with a
25 lot of pressure, time-wise, and then left without any humanitarian aid.
Page 8995
1 At least, I didn't see any.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Boering. Are you actually referring to specific
3 humanitarian aid in the physical sense or are you referring to the
4 situation where you found yourself in view of some several thousand of
5 people in Potocari who needed help? Thank you.
6 A. This question is not clear to me, but I'll try to answer it.
7 This concerned the thousands of people who did not receive humanitarian
8 aid at the time I was still there, and I'm referring to food, drinks,
9 medical supplies, shelter, and whatever.
10 Q. Thank you. The Trial Chamber will decide on what it was that you
11 meant but my question to you is whether the UNPROFOR or the Muslims who
12 participated in the negotiations could do anything to resolve the
13 situation without the assistance of the VRS, the Army of Republika
14 Srpska, in order to assist the population in that situation.
15 A. I think that if enough convoys with aid provisions could be
16 brought in, the primary needs would certainly have been alleviated. And
17 I'm referring, for example, to the UNHCR.
18 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether there were any agreements on the
19 movements of either humanitarian aid or UNPROFOR that had been signed by
20 the VRS, the Army of Republika Srpska? Thank you.
21 A. Well, I'm not aware of that. I was only in touch with the UNHCR
22 staff member on site in the enclave.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we quickly take a
24 look at D77, that's a document that I drafted, and we will -- we have
25 already entered it in the e-court. This is the agreement on the movement
Page 8996
1 of these organisations. So I would just like to show it briefly to the
2 witness. That's D77. Thank you. Thank you.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Have you ever seen this document that deals with the principles
5 for the freedom of movement?
6 A. I have seen some documents, and we regularly talked about convoys
7 and related issues, but at this time I certainly can't remember whether
8 I read this document. It's perfectly possible.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, just take a look at (a), the first and second
10 line:
11 "UNPROFOR will notify the Serbian army authorities 48 hours in
12 advance of convoy movements and 24 hours for single vehicles."
13 Did you have such information?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Did you have such an
15 obligation?
16 A. There were procedures for requesting convoys. I'm aware of that.
17 Q. Thank you. We can see that item 2 deals with movements, item 3
18 with control. Can we now see the last page? I want to put it to you
19 that this was also signed by UNPROFOR. Thank you. Can you see that this
20 movement was signed on the 31st of January, 1995? Well, first of all,
21 were you in Srebrenica at the time? And we can see that it was signed by
22 Brigadier General Brinkman and Major General Tolimir. Can you see that?
23 A. Yes, I can see that.
24 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that all the provisions in this
25 agreement were an obligation both for the UNPROFOR and for the Army of
Page 8997
1 Republika Srpska, in view of the fact that the agreement was signed both
2 by General Brinkman and by myself?
3 A. This document indicates how to deal with convoys. I remember
4 that in practice requesting -- the convoy requests from us and from
5 UNPROFOR was otherwise, and permission was regularly rejected for
6 convoys, so convoys were not allowed to proceed by the VRS. The VRS
7 regularly withheld permission.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you give an example or can you give any reason to
9 the Trial Chamber why the VRS would do that? Because it says here that
10 if the Army of Republika Srpska denied passage to a convoy, they would
11 need to state their reasons for doing that.
12 A. I think you'd need to ask the VRS, not me.
13 Q. Thank you. I would kindly ask you to answer this question:
14 Without the permission of Army of Republika Srpska, was any convoy able
15 to enter Srebrenica, regardless of whether it was an UNPROFOR convoy or a
16 convoy of some humanitarian organisation? Thank you.
17 A. I think permission was required, and clearance was necessary.
18 Q. Thank you. And this permission or clearance by the Army of
19 Republika Srpska for convoys to cross its territory, for them to escort
20 it through, was that -- did that constitute any kind of assistance in
21 getting the convoys and the aid to the population? Did that count as any
22 kind of help? Thank you.
23 A. If a convoy could, in fact, proceed, then that certainly helped
24 provide humanitarian aid.
25 Q. Thank you. Are you able to say whether the passage of an oil
Page 8998
1 pipeline is paid for through the countries of Russia, former Russia, the
2 European Union, and so on? Do those countries have to pay for that?
3 A. I don't understand this question, and I certainly haven't worked
4 on that subject.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter kindly asks Mr. Tolimir to
7 repeat his question. We were unable to quite follow.
8 MR. THAYER: We have the answer, Mr. President. I just want to
9 note, from our perspective, if we have any hope of finishing tomorrow
10 sometime, the fewer questions that are of that nature, dealing with
11 issues like oil pipelines through other countries, the fewer of those,
12 the better.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we are dealing with this situation
14 of the former Yugoslavia. Please continue.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Thank
16 you, Mr. President.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Are you aware that, during the war, gas was delivered to Bosnia
19 and Herzegovina from Russia, and do you know if UNPROFOR participated in
20 this endeavour? Thank you.
21 A. No. I have no knowledge of that.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you know that Russia provided gas free of charge
23 for Sarajevo and that Republika Srpska permitted the transport of that
24 gas on Russia's proposal? Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
Page 8999
1 MR. THAYER: Unfortunately, Mr. President, it's precisely what
2 I stood up for, or about, a couple of minutes ago. Unless
3 General Tolimir can clearly and, hopefully, quickly show what relevance
4 this has to any issue in this case, I would ask that these types of
5 questions stop. Otherwise, we are just going to be here forever on these
6 types of unrelated topics.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Boering, do you recall the question? Have
8 you any knowledge on that?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no knowledge of that.
10 Especially in the Srebrenica enclave, this was not an issue, didn't play
11 any role at all. Nor did I see any gas or oil pipelines that extended
12 into the enclave.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, as you have the answer of the
14 witness, you should move to another topic. He has no knowledge of this
15 area.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Mr. Thayer questioned the relevance. If UNPROFOR provides humanitarian
18 aid to that population, why wouldn't the Army of Republika Srpska not do
19 the same?
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand you, Mr. President,
22 but I'm talking about the relevance. If the UNHCR is providing
23 assistance from their office, why wouldn't the Army of Republika Srpska
24 do the same? But, Mr. President, I have been charged with not providing
25 humanitarian aid while the Army of Republika Srpska was providing
Page 9000
1 humanitarian aid, and even the witness said that the evacuation was a
2 type of humanitarian aid and without the participation of the Army of
3 Republika Srpska could not have been realised at all. And one side
4 cannot provide assistance and then the other side can. They either both
5 did. If UNPROFOR provided assistance, then so did Republika Srpska, the
6 Army of Republika Srpska.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I repeat: You have got the answer
8 of this witness, he doesn't have any knowledge about that, and you should
9 move to another topic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, since you said that the evacuation of the population was
13 a form of humanitarian assistance, which was left without food and water
14 and there were a large number of these people in a small place, would not
15 humanitarian aid be considered to be offered by the party from whose
16 territory the population, with that party's assistance, was transferred
17 to a different territory? Thank you.
18 A. That's a possibility.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please, a short moment. We have to discuss a
20 question.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry for that. Mr. Boering, please now provide
23 us with your answer.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The evacuation of the population to
25 a different area could be described as humanitarian aid, but subject to
Page 9001
1 certain conditions; that it happens in consultation with the population
2 and all agencies and institutions. So I would not call this support,
3 I would call it forced transport. And there was definitely no
4 consultation with other parties, for them to be provided with support
5 upon their arrival. So a unilateral effort at support is certainly not
6 something that I would categorise as humanitarian aid.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Boering. We will have a look at some footage
9 tomorrow, and we will see everything in the movie that you saw, but my
10 question in relation to everything that you've already seen during your
11 preparation for testimony is whether General Nicolai and Colonel
12 Karremans requested from the Army of Republika Srpska assistance in the
13 transport of civilians from Potocari to the Federation, or, actually, to
14 Kladanj, or not.
15 A. That's perfectly possible.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Boering, in view of the fact that you were there,
17 I must ask you whether this is possible or whether this is definitely so,
18 since you were there, because later we are going to read to you the
19 transcript of the conversation between General Mladic and Karremans. Can
20 we look at P1008, please, in the e-court, so that the witness could see
21 it. I'm not looking for any surprises. Thank you.
22 This is page 19 in the English and page 16 in the Serbian, of
23 this transcript. This is the transcript of the video footage that we are
24 going to view tomorrow. I'm going to quote to you what General Mladic
25 says:
Page 9002
1 "What do you want?" He puts this question to Karremans. "You
2 asked to meet. Let me hear what you want."
3 And then Colonel Karremans says:
4 "I had a talk with General Nicolai two hours ago and also with
5 the national authorities about the request on behalf of the population.
6 It's a request, and I'm not in a position to ask for anything."
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We no longer have the
8 original on the screen.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. This is a transcript of what you're going to look at tomorrow,
11 because you said in your statement that this whole meeting was recorded.
12 On the basis of what General Mladic said and what Colonel Karremans said,
13 is it true - that's my question - that Colonel Karremans asked General
14 Mladic for assistance pursuant to a request by General Nicolai? Because
15 he said he had spoken also with the national authorities about the
16 request on behalf of the population. Thank you.
17 A. There was some consultation between Nicolai and Karremans in the
18 course of preparing for the meeting with Mladic, how the resources would
19 be deployed, and that it was clear that the situation was hopeless, and
20 DutchBat felt responsible, it was clear that DutchBat felt responsible
21 for caring for all refugees.
22 Q. Thank you. I'm going to read to you what Karremans says:
23 "We, the command in Sarajevo, have said that the enclave has been
24 lost and that I've been ordered by the B and H command of UNPROFOR to
25 take care of all the refugees, and we are now approximately 10.000 women
Page 9003
1 and children within the compound of Potocari, and the request of the B
2 and H command, the command for Bosnia, is to negotiate about the
3 conditions for the withdrawal of those people. There are some women who
4 are able to speak English and what I've heard from all the soldiers --"
5 could you please pay attention now -- "who are now working to, let's say,
6 ease the pain for the population, is that they are waiting for buses to
7 leave the enclave."
8 So on the basis of this, my question is: Is Mr. Karremans
9 informing General Mladic here about the kind of assistance they are
10 asking for or that is needed and what the population needs? Thank you.
11 A. Karremans is asking Mladic for support.
12 Q. Thank you. Since you were the civilian affairs person and in
13 charge of contacts with the population, can you please tell us, how did
14 Karremans find out what the population was requesting? Who prepared this
15 information? Did he go and talk to the population or is this something
16 that he received from the commander service that works with the
17 population?
18 A. In any case, during the preparations for this meeting, spokesmen
19 had been selected from among the population, and they were consulted.
20 There were three. Whether they had a full mandate and knew what it was
21 all about, all three of them questioned that, but in any case, this was
22 the best solution.
23 Q. Thank you. So was Colonel Karremans presenting his own position
24 to General Mladic when he said to him, "Well, you wanted to meet, let's
25 hear." That is the only thing that Mladic said and the rest was said by
Page 9004
1 Karremans, so did he make his request on the basis of his own opinion or
2 did he do that on the basis of the needs of the population and
3 conversations with the civilian representatives? Thank you.
4 A. I think the latter.
5 Q. If it's this other thing, that he said that on the basis of his
6 conversation with the civilian population, did they then take part in the
7 negotiations, in the conversations, and did he state their requests on
8 the basis of what they said were the needs of the civilian population?
9 Thank you.
10 A. In any case, they were also involved in the conversations with
11 General Mladic.
12 Q. Thank you. Before meeting General Mladic, did they see
13 Karremans? Thank you.
14 A. There was a preliminary meeting in the evening, before the one
15 the next day at 10.00 a.m., but that preliminary meeting wasn't very
16 long; there wasn't a lot of time.
17 Q. Thank you. In one of our next sessions we are going to speak
18 about these meetings. I am only now asking you about the resolution of
19 the humanitarian catastrophe in which the population and the UNPROFOR
20 found themselves. On page -- on a page of your 65 ter statement 06703,
21 page 5, paragraph 6, you talk about this first -- alleged first meeting.
22 Thank you. I'm going to remind you, during the examination-in-chief,
23 Mr. Thayer asked you, on page 16 of the transcript, line 5, the
24 following:
25 "When you came for the negotiations at the Fontana, you saw the
Page 9005
1 peacekeepers who were hostages."
2 And then in line 13, on page 16, you gave a broader answer about
3 how you spoke with that soldier and you said that you saw them all in one
4 room. Do you remember that? Thank you.
5 Can we show page 6 in the English, in the e-court, please. 5 in
6 Serbian, 6 in the English. Thank you.
7 A. Yes, I remember.
8 Q. Thank you. On page 16, line 13, you said there was a group of
9 ten Dutch soldiers, they were sitting at a table, they were supposed to
10 get food. They said that they were at the observation posts and that
11 they were brought to Bratunac unwillingly.
12 This is a quote from your testimony of today.
13 Then it goes on to say, Well, we were not able to move freely,
14 but we are going to quote that later.
15 All right, I'm going to put a question to you now. I'm quoting
16 now a part of your statement that you gave previously, on the 28th of
17 September, 1995. You say, on page 5 - we have it in front of us -
18 paragraph 6. This is this large last-but-one paragraph, actually, line
19 2, where you say:
20 "I saw our fellow DutchBat soldiers, the hostages, sitting in a
21 separate room in the hotel and briefly stopped to speak to them."
22 Thank you. I have finished my quote. My question is: Were they
23 in separate rooms?
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In English, it's the third paragraph on that page
25 and not the last-but-one, just to give the witness the opportunity to
Page 9006
1 read it. Now continue, please.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Did you read this, Witness, sir? Thank you.
5 A. Well, to be honest, it's rather obscure and fast. In any case,
6 I've read one section, which is page 5; and the second part, I can't find
7 that. I see only one section of text and I didn't see the second one.
8 Or am I confused here?
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is the third paragraph on the screen in
10 English. It begins with the words, "In Hotel Fontana we were received by
11 Mladic." Do you see that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the third section begins with "I saw our
14 fellow DutchBat soldiers, the hostages, sitting in a separate room."
15 That is -- you touched the screen and this is the result of that;
16 it disappeared. It will come back very soon.
17 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No problem. That happens to nearly every
19 witness. There we are again.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the question of Mr. Tolimir was: Were they
22 in separate rooms?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think they were all in a single
24 room.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Page 9007
1 Q. Thank you. You said that there were ten of them. Now, the hotel
2 and the hotel room where you saw them, did it have ten beds? Thank you.
3 A. No. It was on the ground floor. In Hotel Fontana, there were
4 rooms where groups could eat, a separate room for small receptions or
5 small groups could do things. It was the ground floor. It wasn't
6 intended for sleeping but for festivities, and I think that this room was
7 one where ordinarily small groups could sit and eat too. I wasn't in a
8 certain type of room that --
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in a room where they were
11 seated at the table together.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Did you see them in a restaurant or in the rooms, the guest
14 rooms, the bedrooms? Thank you.
15 A. Hotel Fontana ground floor, an ordinary area where there are
16 tables and chairs and people can eat there. There were definitely not
17 any beds. That's how I remember it.
18 Q. Thank you. Is this portion of your statement, then, incorrect?
19 Because there you say:
20 "I saw our fellow DutchBat soldiers, the hostages, sitting in
21 separate rooms in the hotel and I briefly stopped to speak to them."
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, perhaps it's a translation issue.
23 In the English text, it reads:
24 "I saw our fellow DutchBat soldiers, the hostages, sitting in a
25 separate room in the hotel." It is singular.
Page 9008
1 Perhaps in the B/C/S, it's different, but the original English
2 version speaks only about a room. That means one room.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We were
4 provided the translation by the OTP, and the interpreters can see it and
5 perhaps they can assist us. They can also see it on the screens and they
6 can tell us how the second and third sentence of the third paragraph in
7 English read, and in B/C/S does the second and third line in the
8 penultimate paragraph. I can't speak any English so I'm just reading
9 from what I was provided. Thank you.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: In the B/C/S version,
11 indeed, it says, "In separate rooms ..."
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We received an explanation
13 that in the B/C/S version it is a plural, it means several rooms. But
14 the English version is the original version signed by the witness, and
15 therefore, we should rely on that. And Mr. Boering provided us with this
16 -- his knowledge on the top of his head.
17 Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. And thank you, Mr. Boering. Are you aware at all whether these
21 soldiers actually got any sleep in those three days? Because you didn't
22 see them in their bedrooms. Thank you.
23 A. I didn't speak to them at length, but of course I asked how they
24 were doing and they indicated that, as far as food and drink was
25 concerned, they were being taken care of and that they could sleep but
Page 9009
1 that they were definitely not -- they had no freedom of movement and they
2 felt threatened.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Boering. Would you now please take a look at the
4 paragraph above the one we quoted from. It's a brief paragraph of three
5 lines only. The first word reads, "For." And in B/C/S it's in four
6 lines and it reads as follows:
7 "At one point, we received a request from the hostages, members
8 of the DutchBat, to meet with General Mladic in Bratunac. He himself was
9 the one who was seeking to have this meeting. Sometime in the evening
10 I drove to Bratunac together with Karremans and Sergeant Major Raven
11 [sic]."
12 Now, my question to you is: Was this, as far as you can recall,
13 the first meeting that you had with General Mladic or not?
14 A. Yes, the first one.
15 Q. Thank you. A few moments ago, we saw the transcript where it
16 said I said that General Mladic said, "What is it that you want? You
17 were asking for a meeting."
18 Now, would General Mladic have put that question or those
19 questions if he was the one who actually initiated this meeting?
20 A. That doesn't sound logical.
21 Q. Thank you. Is it possible, do you allow for the possibility,
22 that you actually mistook this activity and this meeting for something
23 else, because all of the witnesses who appeared to testify here only
24 spoke about three meetings between Karremans and General Mladic in
25 Fontana, and we've had a number of witnesses here who testified to that.
Page 9010
1 Is it possible that you may have made a mistake because, from what you're
2 saying, it would appear that there were four meetings held and not three.
3 A. No. There were three meetings.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, you say that there were three meetings. Would
5 you please read through your statement for tomorrow and then, as you read
6 through it, perhaps you can draw a conclusion as to the number of
7 meetings. There was a meeting, this one in the evening, then at 10.00,
8 and then there was a meeting with interpreters, and then there was
9 another one on the next day. So that would mean four meetings. "Yes" or
10 "no." Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
12 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I suggest that instead of giving the
13 witness homework to do tonight, that if General Tolimir is seriously
14 suggesting that somehow this witness statement or the witness has claimed
15 at any time that there were four meetings at the Hotel Fontana rather
16 than three, that he take the time to do it now. And if that is indeed
17 the position of the Defence, that they believe that this witness at any
18 time has said that there were four meetings at the Hotel Fontana, then he
19 should just put that to the witness and deal with it.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir started to do that already, but to
21 avoid any more discussion about that, Mr. Boering, can you tell me again,
22 there were three Hotel Fontana meetings; is that correct?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How many of them did you attend personally?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All three.
Page 9011
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. And
3 I thank Mr. Thayer. My apologies to the witness. My intentions were
4 good. I didn't have any bad intentions, because I really read through
5 his statement carefully.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. But now if we look at page 6, we see that the witness says in the
8 first sentence, and I'm reading from the Serbian -- could we please have
9 page 6 in the Serbian?
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need both versions on the screen first.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, it's the same page, and
12 it starts with the word -- the paragraph starting with the words, "A film
13 crew ..." Thank you, Mr. President. In Serbian, that's the first
14 paragraph on the next page.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. It reads as follows:
17 "A film crew recorded the entire discussion."
18 My question is this: I don't want to have arguments here, and I
19 am in no way disputing or doubting what you're saying, but perhaps
20 tomorrow we can see a video clip and then perhaps this will help you
21 refresh your memory and maybe then we will get out of this situation
22 easily. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, what is the question for the
24 witness? We see the paragraph you are referring to on the screen.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 9012
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question to the witness? The
2 witness is now available for answering any questions.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Was the first meeting filmed? Thank you.
6 A. I have to think long and hard. Just a moment. I saw film crews
7 on multiple occasions. At the specific moment, it's not rock solid in my
8 memory, but I seem to remember that the first time I entered, that
9 Mladic, Karremans, Rave were certainly present and I believe there was a
10 film crew there as well.
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you for your answer, Mr. Boering.
12 Would you now please take a look on the same page that you have
13 before you, and in Serbian that's the second paragraph, on the page that
14 I have before me, so would you look at the following paragraph. There it
15 says the following:
16 "During the discussion, a pig was slaughtered outside."
17 Can you remember whether this pig was slaughtered on the occasion
18 when you had -- during the time when you had that first meeting with
19 Mladic? Thank you.
20 A. I think this was at one of the later meetings, but -- and I think
21 that a representative of the Muslims was present there as well and he
22 wasn't present at the first meeting.
23 Q. Thank you. Do you allow for the possibility that you may be
24 referring to something else here, because there were no Muslims present,
25 where you talk about the slaughtering of the pig? Because if we look at
Page 9013
1 the next paragraph -- could we have the next page in English, please, and
2 leave the same page in Serbian. In other words, could we have page 7 in
3 English and 6 should remain in Serbian because it is already on the
4 screen. Thank you.
5 Here, we see, in the next paragraph -- thank you -- well, I don't
6 have the -- I don't have -- my screen is dead.
7 Thank you.
8 While we wait for the image to come up -- and I don't have the
9 image on my screen, it's black completely. Thank you.
10 Now, you say:
11 "When we returned to the compound, back at the compound, I chose
12 a man to act as spokesman for the Muslims. I chose this particular man
13 because I knew that he had been the headmaster of the school in
14 Srebrenica. I had occasionally chatted with him and had the idea that he
15 would be a suitable person to negotiate with Mladic."
16 My question: Did you choose a person who would negotiate -- who
17 would participate in the negotiations after the first meeting with
18 Mladic? Thank you.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. And during that first meeting, did you hear that pig
21 being slaughtered that I mentioned in the earlier paragraph, where you
22 said, "During our conversation, somebody slaughtered a pig outside"? So
23 could the Muslims actually hear this slaughtering of the pig?
24 A. As I said earlier, I thought that was at the second meeting, but
25 at this point it's not rock solid in my memory and I'll have to read my
Page 9014
1 statement. I haven't done that yet.
2 Q. Thank you. I proposed that, however, Mr. Thayer did not agree
3 with that.
4 Now, can we see the next paragraph, the one following the one
5 that I just quoted:
6 "At about 2300 hours I again departed for Bratunac together with
7 Karremans. At a Serbian check-point I was told that I should bring a
8 spokesman with me. I then drove back and fetched the spokesman."
9 Did you set out for this second meeting at 2300 hours without a
10 spokesman? And what is it, in fact, that you understand as "spokesman"?
11 A. At the second meeting which we are referring to, the spokesman is
12 the person involved who ultimately came along. That's the teacher.
13 Q. Thank you. I quoted from a paragraph a little earlier where you
14 mentioned that headmaster, but now let me ask you this: Do you know how
15 this man was found in Potocari, when you say that you chose this man to
16 be the spokesman? Were you the one who actually went out looking for
17 such person or was it someone else?
18 A. Together with Sergeant Major Rave, I consulted who would be the
19 best spokesman, and in accommodating the Muslim population near the
20 compound, we noticed him and knew roughly where we could find him, and if
21 I remember correctly, I asked Sergeant Major Rave to go get him and bring
22 him to me so that we could prepare. I don't remember whether
23 I accompanied him, whether we did that together, but that doesn't really
24 matter so much to me.
25 Q. Thank you. I agree with you, it's probably not important, but
Page 9015
1 tell me, did Mr. Mandzic actually oppose being the representative who
2 would talk with Mladic?
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the last portion
4 of the question. Could it be repeated, please.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the last
6 portion of your question; the interpreter didn't catch it.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will repeat my whole
8 question.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Did Nesib Mandzic actually oppose being the representative who
11 would talk with Mladic? Because you told us a moment ago that you and
12 Mr. Rave actually briefed him or prepared him for the meeting.
13 A. I remember that we asked him and that after some deliberation he
14 consented, but it did bother him. And that's why he asked for some more
15 latitude later on.
16 Q. Thank you. Are you referring that he needed some more time to
17 think it over or that he needed some space in order to consult with
18 someone else? So what do you mean exactly by "latitude?"
19 THE INTERPRETER: Or "space" in Serbian, interpreter's note.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wanted to have more people
21 present in the consultation so that he would not be the only one to
22 decide.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we need the second break now. Sir,
24 we must have the second break. We will resume at quarter past 6.00 for
25 the final session of the day.
Page 9016
1 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please continue your
4 cross-examination.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Could
6 I ask e-court to return this page 6 that we had in the Serbian, that we
7 were looking at before the break, and that is page 8 in the English, so
8 that the witness can see what we are going to be discussing.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I'm not mistaken, this is 65 ter 6703.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I forgot
11 to say that.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We always can cooperate in these situations.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Boering, please, when we look at this statement of yours,
15 there is a certain rearrangement of activities from one section to
16 another, or from one part to another, and there are some things that are
17 illogical and you said that yourself. It's not logical for Mladic to
18 say, "All right, what would you -- what do you want?" And then for you
19 to say, "What do you want?" So I'm asking you this: All the meetings
20 that you and Karremans and Mr. Rave had with General Mladic, were all of
21 those meetings recorded with a camera?
22 A. At this time, I don't know that. Often they were, but whether
23 they always were, I can't say.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I'm not sure if you have the right
25 page in English on the screen.
Page 9017
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm just
2 going to look at that now. We are looking at the place where it says,
3 "Around 2300 hours." This is the third paragraph in English. So this is
4 the paragraph that I wanted the witness to look at.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, since you say you are not sure, can you please tell us
7 whether, on the 10th or between the 11th and the 12th, did you have two
8 or three meetings with Mladic? And would this help you to remember?
9 A. I had three meetings, at least meetings where I was present, with
10 General Mladic.
11 Q. Thank you. Was anyone else present with you, of the UNPROFOR
12 representatives, at these three meetings? Could you tell us who else was
13 with you from UNPROFOR at the meetings?
14 A. If you're referring to UNPROFOR DutchBat, Karremans was present
15 at all meetings. And Sergeant Major Rave was present certainly at two of
16 the three meetings. The third, I'd have to read up on that. It's
17 possible that he was present at all three. I almost think he was. And
18 if you are referring to UNPROFOR, you could say that the interpreter
19 Petar, who was paid by UNPROFOR, was present as well.
20 Q. Thank you. Can you remember who was with you at the first
21 meeting with General Mladic? Thank you.
22 A. Yes. At the first meeting, I was with Rave and Karremans, and
23 Mladic had some people with him.
24 Q. Thank you. Was this meeting recorded with a camera? Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the witness has answered this
Page 9018
1 question before the break. He was not sure about that and then he tried
2 to think about that, and he provided us with an answer already.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Since
4 the witness already answered, I'm just going back to say that on page 6
5 he said that a film crew or a TV crew recorded the whole conversation.
6 This is why I'm asking, because then it seems that there were four
7 meetings. With the best of intentions, I would like to clarify the
8 situation so that we could discuss this. It's not my aim to compromise
9 or discredit the witness. Anyone can fail to remember the chronological
10 sequence of things. Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment, we have a problem with the
12 transcript. I don't see Mr. Tolimir speaking in e-court -- in LiveNote,
13 sorry. Mr. Thayer?
14 MR. THAYER: Again, Mr. President, I would like to know --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have the transcript in LiveNote still working
16 but it's stopped in e-court. Mr. Thayer.
17 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I would like to know, other than
18 General Tolimir's saying so, or perhaps his confusion, what his basis is
19 for again suggesting that there were four meetings, or that this witness
20 somehow has ever said that there were any more than three meetings.
21 Trial transcript is before the Trial Chamber. General Tolimir knows that
22 this witness has testified in two prior trials and has given uncountable
23 statements, all of which he said there are three meetings. That has
24 never been in doubt. The witness has stated on a number of occasions
25 today that there were three meetings. So unless we get right down to
Page 9019
1 whatever is behind General Tolimir's insinuation that there are four
2 meetings, we are wasting time.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, can you tell us what is the
4 background of your questioning in this respect? The witness indeed -
5 I agree with Mr. Thayer - stated several times that he took part in three
6 Hotel Fontana meetings, and as far as he is able to recall, they were all
7 filmed by a crew. Only in respect of the first meeting he was not quite
8 sure if that is really the case. What is the problem or the background
9 or the purpose of your questioning?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
11 purpose of my questions is that the witness said that in the evening on
12 the 11th, he was with General Mladic at the Hotel Fontana. Then he said
13 that Rave, Karremans, the witness, and Mr. -- and the spokesperson were
14 there. Then he said again that they were there on the 10th. This is the
15 third meeting. And then he said he didn't remember whether a meeting was
16 recorded or not. If he doesn't remember it being recorded, and says that
17 the observers scheduled that meeting, I wanted to clear up whether it was
18 the first meeting when General Mladic asked Karremans what it was all
19 about. If we don't clarify this, then you will see that there will be a
20 problem later. I can leave it like this and you can judge the weight.
21 I'm not -- it is not my intention to compromise the witness. I can help
22 him. If Mr. Thayer thinks that we can resolve this matter by aggravating
23 the situation, I can move on to something else and then later you can
24 make your own judgement on this matter. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see Mr. Thayer to aggravate the
Page 9020
1 situation. Nobody is in that position. We just want to clarify the
2 situation. May I, to avoid further discussions on that, just ask the
3 witness: Do you stand by that, that there have been three meetings in
4 the Hotel Fontana and that you attended all three meetings? I already
5 asked you that. And if you recall that there were -- was always a team
6 of people filming the meetings. Could you clarify that a last time,
7 please?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that there were three
9 meetings. I remember, as you indicated, seeing the film crew several
10 times. Whether they were present at all three, I assume they were.
11 Certainly at the first, and also later, they were present. Certainly at
12 the third meeting, because I remember that a Srebrenica sign and a
13 register of marriages was presented to the lady present, to show, "I know
14 when you were married," and that's been established on record. As for
15 the second time, whether there was a film crew present, that was that
16 evening at 11 p.m., it's possible.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you certain that the second meeting was in
18 the evening at 11.00?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. 10.00, 11.00. In the
20 evening, yes. And the third meeting was the next day at 10.00 a.m.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please carry on. Before you do
22 that, let me put a last question to the witness: Can you tell me, have
23 you ever heard about a fourth meeting in the Hotel Fontana, between
24 UNPROFOR representatives and General Mladic and his officers?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the third meeting, I left the
Page 9021
1 enclave fairly quickly and, of course, there were meetings afterwards in
2 Fontana later on, with other UNPROFOR people as well. So of course there
3 were meetings after that too. That might explain the misunderstanding.
4 General Nicolai and others were present there as well, but I was not
5 there.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have again a problem with the transcript, but
7 we can follow in LiveNote.
8 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I'm now asking the witness: On the
11 basis of all that has been said, are you sure that Mladic asked you to
12 come to the meeting or was it what we saw earlier when Mr. Mladic -- or
13 General Mladic said, "What is it? You wanted to see me." So what was
14 it? Was it the way you described it on page 6, paragraph 5, of the
15 Serbian version, and on page 6 of the English version, paragraph 3?
16 A. I remember that this issue came up at previous testimony as well,
17 and at the time I indicated that I was not certain.
18 Q. Thank you. Since you are not certain, would you be certain if
19 you were to look at all three footage -- all the footage of all the three
20 meetings, from the beginning to the end? Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this is really speculation. How can
22 the witness say, "I will be certain if I see that and that"? You should
23 wait with this question, after putting this to the witness, by showing a
24 video.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. There is
Page 9022
1 no need to defend the witness from me. We are going to show that
2 tomorrow. We will not be going into that today. We are going to move to
3 a new group of questions and then the witness could reply to this matter
4 tomorrow.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I can't accept this statement. I'm
6 not defending a witness. This is really not correct to put that on the
7 record. Nobody will be defended except you. You are the accused and you
8 may defend yourself, with the assistance of your team. The question was
9 different. The question -- your question was not appropriate to say,
10 "Will you be certain after having seen something"? This is speculation.
11 This is not an appropriate question to the witness at this point in time.
12 Please carry on.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm not
14 going to be speculating anymore. Since I'm the only problem here and no
15 one else, I'm go be leaving this for tomorrow after we watch the footage.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. My next question for you is this: According to your information,
19 who organised the meetings between General Mladic and Colonel Karremans?
20 Thank you.
21 A. Well, the second and third meetings were clearly organised at
22 General Mladic's request. The first, as I've explained earlier, is
23 unclear to me.
24 Q. Thank you. Are you able to tell us who invited the people and
25 escorted them to the meeting? The first meeting is what I'm thinking of,
Page 9023
1 since you're not sure.
2 A. Conceivably the first meeting was arranged by Petar or our own
3 DutchBat soldiers that had been taken hostage, and as for being escorted
4 to the first meeting, we drove ourselves in two cars. We had no escort.
5 We drove ourselves. And en route to that meeting we were stopped at some
6 points and we explained where we were headed and they let us pass after
7 some consultation. We certainly were not escorted on the way there.
8 Q. Thank you. Witness, since your testimony is very important about
9 whose initiative the meeting was, because many things depend on this,
10 it's very important for us to know certain things, so it's not a good
11 idea to say that I'm not sure about something or not so, but you --
12 that's why I'm putting these questions to which you gave the answers that
13 you gave.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, no testimony of a witness would be
15 helpful for your purpose or anybody's purpose if the witness would tell
16 you something which seems to be certain if the witness is not in a
17 position to say that. If he says, "I'm not sure about that," you must
18 take it like that. The witness is sitting here and is trying to, in most
19 cases, trying to help you with what he has in mind and what he recalls.
20 Please don't judge in that way about the answer you have got from
21 the witness.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am not judging
23 anything. I was just saying that, in view of his answers, that I'm not
24 going to put any more questions about that.
25 I would like the e-court now to show page 3 of this statement
Page 9024
1 that we are looking at in the Serbian, paragraph 1, and it's probably
2 page 3 in the English, but it's a different paragraph. When I look at
3 the text, I will be able to tell where it is. Thank you. We can now see
4 it on our screens in both versions. On page 2 in the Serbian
5 translation, you started saying something about a person called Sarkic
6 and then you go on to say that:
7 "He seemed to be friendly, but I heard that he was an unreliable
8 person who was trigger-happy or hungry for combat. I heard that from my
9 predecessor. I had very little occasion to meet with him. I only spoke
10 with him in January and June [as interpreted]. The area where he was
11 deployed was not easily accessible and it was constantly in wartime
12 conditions. There were Muslim fighters there and Serbs and Muslims
13 exchanged fire all the time."
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not have the
15 original on the screens.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is on the screen as the second paragraph which
17 begins with, "Sarkic" and it was quite fine, the interpretation, without
18 one word. "I only spoke to him in January and July," I can read on the
19 screen it was interpreted or quoted by Mr. Tolimir, I don't know that, as
20 June instead of July. Just for the record.
21 Mr. Tolimir, continue, please, or put a question to the witness.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness, can you tell us why it was, what was the reason, that
25 you had such infrequent contacts with Mr. Sarkic? Was it because of his
Page 9025
1 personality or was it because he was in an unaccessible area? Thank you.
2 A. We had no contact with the Milici Brigade at all, and this was in
3 part because we had insufficient access to that area, because there were
4 borders within the enclave known as the Bandera Triangle.
5 Q. Thank you. Was he within the so-called Bandera Triangle or
6 outside of it on the other side of the separation line, the side where
7 the Serbian army was deployed? Thank you.
8 A. Yes. He was on the Serb side.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, since you mention Bandera Triangle, tell us why
10 it was that you couldn't go through or you couldn't cross over Bandera
11 Triangle and go about your business. Thank you.
12 A. We were more limited in our operations there. We had some
13 observation posts but we did not have true freedom of movement there.
14 This was because of the Muslim leader, Zulfo, who was there.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you explain to this Trial Chamber why Zulfo had
16 prohibited you from moving in the area of responsibility of his brigade
17 and within the so-called Bandera Triangle?
18 A. He wanted to handle things independently, and tolerated no
19 supervision or control, and he didn't want this from Naser Oric or, later
20 on, from anybody else in Srebrenica.
21 Q. Thank you. In view of what you've just said, can you tell us
22 whether you had informed the UNPROFOR command and the Main Staff that you
23 did not have access to the area of responsibility -- to the area of
24 responsibility of the brigade, the 281st Brigade? Thank you.
25 A. Well, first, it was not my job to report that. That was up to my
Page 9026
1 commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, and he most certainly did report
2 that. And subsequently, we tried to patrol more extensively in that
3 area.
4 Q. Thank you. Under the agreement, it was your task to monitor the
5 demilitarisation of the area of responsibility -- of the zone. Did that
6 imply that you should have the freedom of movement throughout the entire
7 safe area?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The accused used the word
9 "zone."
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what it meant, and
11 that's why the decision was taken to patrol more in that area.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened once you
14 set off on your patrols?
15 A. Yes. At a certain point one of those patrols was stopped and
16 prevented from proceeding. We weren't allowed to go any further. And
17 there was no opportunity to return either, so it was a type of hostage
18 situation. Concerning the group that was patrolling there, that is. And
19 then I drove there in a vehicle to try to solve the problem, and in the
20 end, after a few days, we were free to continue our duties.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Mindua has a question.
22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. I have a very small
23 question. In the document that we have on the screen, on page 3,
24 regarding Zulfo, you say that you had no contact with him and that he
25 worked in a region or zone called the Bandera Triangle. Where does this
Page 9027
1 name come from? Do you know why it's called the Bandera Triangle? Who
2 came up with the word in the first place?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I think it was the
4 region.
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Fine. So far, no witness has been
6 able to tell us where the name came from. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. In lines 1 through 5, on page 67 of today's transcript, just a
11 moment ago, you said that later on you tried to conduct the patrols. Can
12 you tell us whether you were able to conduct patrols in the Bandera
13 Triangle and did you have access to it at all or was it a no-pass zone?
14 A. In the efforts to gain extensive access, this patrol that we just
15 mentioned was en route, and was blocked. So there were means to use
16 certain roads but not all areas were accessible, as far as I can
17 remember.
18 Q. Thank you. Since you say that you didn't have access to all
19 areas, could you tell us which places you had no access to and where you
20 could not send your patrols? Thank you.
21 A. In the border region, there were some observation posts where we
22 could go, we could get to them by roads that we were allowed to move on.
23 And as for knowing for certain how far you could deviate from those
24 paths, I don't have that information, but it was a problem.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether, in the Bandera Triangle, it
Page 9028
1 was you who were being checked or did you actually carry out checks on
2 Zulfo's men in Bandera Triangle?
3 A. You could say, on the border of the enclave, from the observation
4 posts, we could do our work. There were areas where we were not in a
5 position to perform true inspections.
6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether you know why you were not
7 allowed to go into certain areas, as you've just told us a moment ago?
8 Thank you.
9 A. It may have related to smuggling efforts or possible breakouts
10 from the enclave.
11 Q. Thank you. When you say that this had to do with smuggling, do
12 you mean that there was drug smuggling? Was there smuggling of people or
13 weapons? What was it that you actually monitored? Thank you.
14 A. Definitely smuggling of arms. That was certainly monitored.
15 Smuggling of goods? Well, I haven't seen a lot of reports on the actions
16 against that but, of course, due to lack of resources, there were
17 smuggling routes to bring goods inside, supplies.
18 Q. Thank you. If there was weapons trafficking there, do you know
19 what measures UNPROFOR took in order to enable the monitoring of the area
20 where possible arms were being trafficked? Thank you.
21 A. Well, that's what we used the observation posts and patrols for.
22 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, did the UNPROFOR command in Tuzla,
23 Sarajevo and Zagreb know, were they informed, that you did not have
24 access to all areas within the demilitarised zone in Srebrenica? Thank
25 you.
Page 9029
1 A. I think that they were definitely informed about the
2 hostage-taking that occurred in the Bandera Triangle.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether the Security Council, the UN
4 Security Council, was aware of the problem?
5 A. No. I have no idea about that.
6 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether your command proposed that the
7 matter be resolved at joint meetings between the warring parties that
8 were being held in Sarajevo? Thank you.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you know why the VRS was never aware of that and
11 yet it was one of the parties' signatories of that, just as was the
12 Muslim side and the UNPROFOR? And I'm referring here to the agreement on
13 demilitarisation.
14 A. What I remember is that I most certainly did speak with Major
15 Nikolic about it, that we had been detained in the Bandera Triangle, so
16 the VRS knew about it.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you speak with Nikolic, and did you tell him that
18 you had absolutely no access to certain areas within the triangle and
19 that there was some weapons trafficking going on there? Thank you.
20 A. No. That was a routine topic of conversation raised by Major
21 Nikolic, and we would mention what we were doing to prevent this.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you remember when Major Nikolic mentioned that,
23 and what did you do in order to overcome that or resolve that situation?
24 A. Well, that undoubtedly happened several times, and that was not
25 part of my mandate or my operations.
Page 9030
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, it is 7.00. We have to adjourn for
2 the day.
3 Sir, you will be so kind to come to the Court, to the Tribunal,
4 again tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom to continue your
5 examination. Thank you very much.
6 We adjourn.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m., to be
8 reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of December
9 2010, at 9.00 a.m.
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