Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9350

 1                           Thursday, 3 February 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody, especially to you,

 6     Mr. Elderkin, the first time we see you in the courtroom this year, and

 7     we wish you a happy and successful year.

 8             I think the next witness is ready.  We go into closed session for

 9     a moment to enable the witness to enter the courtroom.

10                           [Closed session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

Page 9351

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 2             Good morning, sir.  Welcome to the Tribunal.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation on

 5     the card which is shown to you now.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-016

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sits down.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As you know, there are still protective measures

13     in place for you.  You will be addressed by a pseudonym and nobody will

14     recognise you on the screen because of face distortion.

15             Mr. Elderkin has questions for you and is commencing his

16     examination-in-chief.  Mr. Elderkin.

17             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you.

18                           Examination by Mr. Elderkin:

19        Q.   And witness, good morning to you.  As you know, my name is Rupert

20     Elderkin and I will be asking you a few questions this morning.  If there

21     is anything that I ask you that is unclear, please let me know and I will

22     try to rephrase my question.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  Can I ask first to have 65 ter number 7167 on the

24     screen?  And this shouldn't be broadcast.

25        Q.   Sir, without telling us your name, are you the person named on

Page 9352

 1     the screen?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. ELDERKIN:  And, Your Honours, I request that the pseudonym

 5     sheet be admitted now under seal.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 8     Exhibit P1761 and admitted under seal, thank you.

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:

10        Q.   Sir, do you recall having testified here in The Hague in the

11     Krstic trial in April 2000?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Was your testimony truthful?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And have you had the opportunity to review your testimony in the

16     past few days?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Having reviewed your testimony, does it fairly and accurately

19     reflect what you would say if you were to be examined here today and

20     asked the same questions?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I move to have the witness's

23     testimony from the Krstic trial admitted, and that's 65 ter number 1553.

24     And in addition, 65 ter numbers 1207 and 1227 were admitted through the

25     witness in the Krstic trial, and I'd also ask for their admission now.

Page 9353

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please clarify, the transcript of the 14th of

 2     April, that was in the Popovic case or in the Krstic trial?

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  It was in the Krstic trial, Your Honour.  The

 4     witness last testified before this Tribunal in Krstic and his testimony

 5     was subsequently admitted in Popovic and also I think in Blagojevic.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And they are all public documents?

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  And the transcript is a public document, indeed,

 8     Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1553 shall be

11     assigned Exhibit P1762.  65 ter document 1207 shall be assigned

12     Exhibit P1763.  65 ter document 1227 shall be assigned Exhibit P1764.

13     Thank you.

14             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours for the record, one additional

15     exhibit was used with the witness during his Krstic testimony, and that

16     has already been admitted in this trial as Exhibit P262.  I'd like now to

17     read a summary of the witness's Krstic testimony.

18             The witness is a Muslim by faith.  On the 11th of July 1995, he

19     was living with his family in the village of Suceska in Srebrenica.  That

20     day, his family went to Potocari but he went to Jaglici as he was afraid

21     of being killed by Serb soldiers.  There were around 10 to 15.000 people

22     at Jaglici who decided to head for Tuzla.  The witness set off on the

23     afternoon of the 12th of July.  He spent the night in the woods and was

24     captured near Nova Kasaba at around 7.00 a.m. on the 13th of July.

25             He was taken to the elementary school in Kasaba which was being

Page 9354

 1     used as a barracks.  Around 2.00 p.m., the captured Muslims at the school

 2     were taken to a nearby football pitch.  There were around 1.500 to 2.000

 3     men sitting in rows surrounded by armed Serb soldiers.  While the witness

 4     was at the football pitch, more Muslim men were arriving from the

 5     direction of Konjevic Polje.  The Serb soldiers said that General Mladic

 6     would come and he arrived and made a speech saying that the men would all

 7     be exchanged.  Mladic also ordered the soldiers to make a list of the

 8     prisoners.

 9             While Mladic was present, the soldiers killed a prisoner.  After

10     the list was made, Mladic left towards Konjevic Polje.

11             In the late afternoon, buses came and drove the prisoners towards

12     Bratunac.  Near Sandici, the witness saw a group of men surrounded by

13     Serb soldiers.  Further on, near Kravica, the witness saw a building with

14     four or five dead bodies at the central entrance and he heard shooting

15     from behind the building.  The bus stopped for the night in Bratunac.

16     The witness heard shooting throughout the night and four or five people

17     were taken off the bus and never came back.

18             The next day, 14th of July, the prisoners remained on the bus.

19     They were not given any water and people were fainting because of the

20     heat.  A soldier arrived and told the prisoners they were going to be

21     exchanged.  The bus drove north to Pilica.  At the school there, the

22     soldiers ordered the prisoners into the school gymnasium which was

23     already crowded.  The witness volunteered to get water.  While he was

24     outside, he heard a bus approaching and then there was the sound of

25     people crying for help, then shooting and the guard ordered the men

Page 9355

 1     getting water back into the gym.

 2             Two or three men died during the night from lack of air in the

 3     overcrowded gym.

 4             On the 15th of July, Serb soldiers robbed the men in the gym and

 5     threatened to kill them if they did not hand over 10.000 German marks but

 6     they did not have the money.  During the night, the 15th of July, men

 7     were taken out of the gym and some didn't come back.

 8             On the morning of the 16th of July, a Serb soldier said, "Let all

 9     the young men leave the gym.  One by one, because they will be

10     exchanged."  The witness's hands were tied, then he went outside and got

11     on to a bus.  The bus drove to a meadow where there were many dead

12     bodies.  The soldiers took groups of men from the buses and shot them.

13     As the witness was getting off the bus, the Serb soldiers asked if anyone

14     had any relatives abroad so that they could send money for exchange.  And

15     some people spoke up and were singled out.

16             The witness was taken to the meadow with the bodies.  Serb

17     soldiers there opened fire with automatic rifles and a machine-gun.  Then

18     there was an order to shoot people individually.  The witness was shot in

19     the back but was only scratched.  The soldiers asked if anyone was

20     wounded and said they would be bandaged.  Those who spoke up were

21     finished off.  More groups of prisoners were brought to the meadow and

22     were killed.

23             That evening, a vehicle arrived and unloaded more bodies at the

24     site.  The witness spent the night in the killing field and the next day

25     hid under a bridge.  From his hiding place, he heard the sounds of

Page 9356

 1     machines working all day.  He met an older man and they escaped together.

 2     They met a third man but he eventually got lost.  The witness and the

 3     older man turned themselves in when they became exhausted.  They were

 4     given food and drink and were taken to Karakaj in a minibus.  The witness

 5     was taken on to the Batkovic camp and he was finally released on the 26th

 6     of December of 1995.

 7             Your Honours that concludes my summary and I have some further

 8     questions for the witness.

 9             If I may ask for the first question to be in private session.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9357

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:

 6        Q.   Sir, in your testimony in the Krstic case, as I've referred to

 7     just now in the summary, you referred to the enemy soldiers as Serb

 8     soldiers.  Can you be more specific about where these soldiers were from?

 9        A.   From Bosnia, they were Bosnians.

10        Q.   So members of the Bosnian Serb army?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I'd like to ask you a few questions about Batkovic camp, please.

13     In your prior testimony, you said that you were taken from Karakaj to the

14     Batkovic camp.  Where is the camp, if you know?

15        A.   In Bijeljina.

16        Q.   And I'd like to show you a map, please, and see if you can

17     confirm the general location to help us in this courtroom with our

18     orientation.

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  If I could have Exhibit P104, which is the

20     Prosecution's map book, and at page 10 in e-court of that exhibit,

21     please.

22             If we could perhaps zoom in on the top two-thirds of the map, if

23     possible, so cutting off just below the red circle.  That's great, thank

24     you.

25             Sir, on this map we can see a portion of Eastern Bosnia in very

Page 9358

 1     simplified form, and I think we can just see at the bottom right-hand

 2     corner Bratunac, and then following up the river to the north, Zvornik

 3     and onwards to Bijeljina.  Right at the top there is a red triangle

 4     marked as Batkovic camp.  Does that location correspond roughly with

 5     where you believe Batkovic camp to be?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Sir, do you recall around what date you arrived at Batkovic camp?

 8        A.   The 26th.

 9        Q.   And of which month, please?

10        A.   July 1995.

11        Q.   And what happened when you arrived at the camp?

12        A.   The Red Cross was there already, and I was immediately registered

13     with them.

14             MR. ELDERKIN:  Can I ask, please, to see 65 ter number 2686?

15             Sir, this is an aerial photograph that we are looking at.  Do you

16     recognise any of the buildings as the buildings you knew at Batkovic

17     camp?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I'd like to ask you, if I may, that the witness could mark this

20     image.

21             MR. ELDERKIN:  And could we have an assistant to set up the magic

22     pen, please?

23        Q.   Sir, the pen you're being given can be used to mark on the

24     screen, and in a moment I'll ask you to mark some of the locations, if

25     you recall them.  If you make a mistake, then that can be erased.

Page 9359

 1             Now, first of all, where were you registered by the Red Cross

 2     when you arrived?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Sir, you've drawn a red circle on the screen.  Could you mark a

 5     number 1 next to that, please?

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   And was there some kind of facility where the Red Cross

 8     registered you or was this simply in the open air?

 9        A.   Well, it was a sort of a small tent.

10        Q.   Can you see on this picture the place where you were imprisoned?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Could you mark that, please, with an X?

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And perhaps put the number 2 next to it, just to be sure.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Sir, during the time you were at Batkovic camp, were there any

17     other prisoners held with you in the building you've just marked?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And during your time in the camp, how many prisoners were held in

20     that building?

21        A.   I think about 200 prisoners.  I'm not sure.

22        Q.   Were these other prisoners already at the camp when you arrived?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did any more prisoners continue to arrive after you came to the

25     camp?

Page 9360

 1        A.   Yes, two or three of them.

 2        Q.   And while you were at the camp, did you find out where the other

 3     prisoners were from?

 4        A.   I think two of them were brought from Serbia.

 5        Q.   Were they Serbs?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Who were they?

 8        A.   Muslims.

 9        Q.   And of the 200 prisoners, were those Muslims or Serbs or a

10     mixture?  Can you explain?

11        A.   Muslims.

12        Q.   Muslims from which area?

13        A.   Srebrenica.

14        Q.   Did you learn where these other Muslims from Srebrenica had been

15     taken prisoner before they had been brought to the Batkovic camp?

16        A.   Well, I think that they used to be in the woods.

17        Q.   Had any of those prisoners been brought to the camp directly from

18     Srebrenica or Potocari just after the Srebrenica enclave had been

19     captured by the Bosnian Serb forces?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Now, sir, you've marked the building at the bottom of the

22     picture.  Do you know what the other buildings in this picture were used

23     for?

24        A.   I'm not sure.

25        Q.   For example, were you taken to any separate building to eat or to

Page 9361

 1     work?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And while you were at the camp, did you find out whether there

 4     were any prisoners in the other buildings we can see on this picture?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   When did you finally leave Batkovic camp?

 7        A.   On the 26th of December 1995.

 8        Q.   Sir, I don't have any further questions for you.

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:  But I'd like to ask for this image to be tendered

10     as an exhibit marked in court.  I don't know if Your Honours would like

11     any further information to be placed on the image by the witness or

12     whether it's sufficient with the markings he has.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This aerial photograph with the markings will be

14     received as an exhibit.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

16     Exhibit P1765.  Thank you.

17             MR. ELDERKIN:

18        Q.   Thank you very much, witness.

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  And Your Honours, I have no further questions at

20     this time.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Elderkin.

22             Sir, now the accused, Mr. Tolimir, is commencing his

23     cross-examination.  Mr. Tolimir.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  May

Page 9362

 1     there be peace in this house.  May God's will be done in these

 2     proceedings and not mine.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Good morning to the witness.  I wish him a pleasant stay here and

 5     a safe journey home.

 6             Since it's going to be difficult for me to gauge which of the

 7     details the witness does not want to go public with, we would kindly ask

 8     the witness and his legal counsel to pay attention to that and to caution

 9     me as soon as such a moment may arise.  And since we speak the same

10     language -- oh, I apologise.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin?

12             MR. ELDERKIN:  I do apologise as well and simply for the record

13     I'd like to make clear that the Prosecution is not the witness's legal

14     counsel.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this comment, otherwise I would

16     have done that.  Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.

18     I apologise.  I spoke automatically, without thinking.  May the witness

19     speak slowly and mind the need for a break between question and answer.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Since what we are saying is going to be interpreted, please mind

22     the cursor that you can see on the screen, and as soon as you see it

23     stop, then start answering the question.  Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D558 in e-court,

25     please?  It is the witness's statement given to the OTP on the 23rd of

Page 9363

 1     May 1996.  Thank you.

 2             We can see the statement now.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   My question has to do with your statement.  In the first

 5     paragraph of your statement, which can be found on the next page --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- just for a moment, this should not be

 7     broadcast.  Please continue.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9364

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And especially, perhaps Mr. Tolimir just

 4     misspoke.  I don't see it any more.  I heard something about the location

 5     where the witness is living now.  But this can't be in public session.

 6     We will redact that part.

 7             Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Please, you tell me what it is that you can say in public in

11     answer to my question rather than me making that choice for you.  Please

12     state your mind in that respect whenever I put a question to you.  Thank

13     you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin?

15             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd ask that we go into private session right now,

16     please, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9365











11 Page 9365 redacted. Private session.















Page 9366

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you tell us who your commander was at a time when you were in

16     the army until 1993?  Can you tell us, if need be, in private session?

17        A.   Zulfo was.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us why was UNPROFOR banned from going

19     into certain areas within the area of your brigade, if you know?  Thank

20     you.

21        A.   I know that they were -- there was no ban.  They were free to go

22     wherever they wanted to.

23        Q.   So there was no area where movement was restricted?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Tell us:  In the area of responsibility and deployment of your

Page 9367

 1     brigade, was any -- were any weapons or ammunition manufactured?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Do you have any knowledge about the ties between the Srebrenica

 4     area and Zepa area across the territory held by your unit?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did you participate in any of the actions under the

 7     command of the commander you just named?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Did you leave Srebrenica in order to carry out any military

10     actions until 1993?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Which platoon were you a part of in -- up until 1993, or if you

13     can tell us what the name of that unit was, if need be in private

14     session?

15        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Was your brigade organised in squads, companies,

17     platoons?  Thank you.

18        A.   I'm not sure.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you go to man the lines of your own initiative or

20     was it on the orders of your commander?

21        A.   Well, we would normally go to man the lines in the evenings.

22        Q.   Thank you.  After 1993, did any of you go to man the lines or to

23     attend to any tasks that the unit might have had?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Did the Ministry of the Interior guard the boundaries of the

Page 9368

 1     demilitarised zone of Srebrenica or not?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   Do you know who it was that the international forces of UNPROFOR

 4     were separating along the boundaries of the zone?  Thank you.

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   Do you know Mr. Ramiz Becirovic?

 7        A.   I did hear of him.

 8        Q.   Do you know him or did you only hear of him?

 9        A.   I only heard of him.

10        Q.   Can you tell us if he was a member of the units stationed at

11     Suceska?  Was he a commander of the Territorial Defence there?

12        A.   I don't know.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have D120 shown now?  D120,

15     page 6 in Serbian and 10 in English.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you please indicate for the

17     record which document it is we are looking at?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are looking at a document which

19     was made at a time when he was a soldier in Srebrenica.  It's a guide to

20     Srebrenica, listing what the activities or duties of each of the units

21     there was.  We've already looked at the document.  It was a contribution

22     to a chronicle produced by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it was

23     that army which provided the information contained in this guide.  So I'd

24     like the witness to go through the document so that we may see the extent

25     of his knowledge since he didn't know anything of the information

Page 9369

 1     I sought earlier.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I understand your position.  On the

 3     other hand, this witness hasn't seen this in court and we just start at

 4     page 6, so it is necessary to explain what is about you are talking --

 5     asking the witness.  Please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I need another clarification.  I was told this

10     document is under seal, it should not be broadcast.  And if there is

11     still a reason that this document is under seal, you should be aware of

12     that during your examination.  Go ahead, please.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I've

14     already stated for the record, but let me repeat that it was a

15     contribution to a chronicle issued by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

16     containing information about its units, and I'm going to ask the witness

17     about the unit he was a member of.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        A.   Well, I don't know anything about any of this.

20        Q.   Thank you.  This is my question:  Do you see before you the roman

21     numeral 3, and below it, the title, which reads, and it's page 9 in

22     English, "Full Establishment of the Unit."  So do you see here a mention

23     of the unit you were a member of?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Perhaps you misunderstood my question.  Does it not say beneath,

Page 9370

 1     three numbers and then the name of a brigade?  Was this not the brigade

 2     you belonged to?

 3        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you then tell us what was the base of your

 5     brigade?  What was the name of your brigade?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7        Q.   And what was the name of your unit that was stationed in that

 8     location you mentioned which I will not name here?  Thank you.

 9        A.   It was Territorial Defence.  It was no unit.  It was just --

10        Q.   Thank you.  Were you a member of that unit as of the 1st of May

11     1992?  Thank you.

12        A.   Which unit?

13        Q.   The one whose name I can see below the roman numeral 3?

14        A.   I don't remember.

15        Q.   Can you remember anything at all about the unit you belonged to

16     at a time you were a soldier of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992?

17     Thank you.

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember any operation carried out by your

20     unit in 1992 and 1993?  Thank you.

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Did your unit take part in any action or operation, in any

23     combat?  Thank you.

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Does that mean that you only guarded your homes and went to join

Page 9371

 1     the unit as called up?  Or did you just go to the units on your own?

 2        A.   Well, we just guarded the homes.

 3        Q.   And while you were on the lines -- my apologies to the

 4     interpreter.  While you were manning the lines, can you tell me something

 5     about what your typical day would look like?  Thank you.

 6        A.   Well, you would spend the whole day in the trench, and that's

 7     what it looked like.  What else can I tell you?

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell the Trial Chamber of any activity

 9     or any mission of your unit or anything that you can recall while you

10     were within the unit, even if you can tell us an anecdote or a story?

11        A.   Well, as I've already told you, we just held the line, and that's

12     about it.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read what it said under the roman numeral 3 a

14     moment ago, while you were looking at the screen?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Well, could you recognise anything there, any activity, any

17     person or any operation that is mentioned here as something that was

18     carried out by the BH Army while you were a member of one of its units?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Throughout that period between 1992 through May 1993, were you a

21     soldier?  Were you wounded?  Were you ill?  Did you for any reason --

22     were you for any reason absent from within the unit?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Is there any reason why you're refusing to answer my questions,

25     why you're refusing to say anything about your unit?  Because we need it

Page 9372

 1     for the record and for the Trial Chamber, and perhaps you can tell us

 2     just the name of your commander, komandir, or can you tell us anything

 3     about the resupplies of the unit or anything of that sort?

 4        A.   What do you mean resupply?

 5        Q.   Well, can you tell us --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin?

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  I would object to characterising the witness as

 8     refusing to answer the question.  As far as I can see from the

 9     transcript, he's answered every single question he's been asked.  In

10     particular, also General Tolimir referred to the text he had on the

11     screen and asked the witness whether he had a chance to read what was

12     beneath the roman numeral, although he only directed his question to

13     concern the first couple of lines after that roman numeral.  If it's

14     important for the witness to read the entire page, he should be given

15     that opportunity because there is a fair amount of detail in there, but

16     as I say, it's not -- I think it's objectionable for General Tolimir to

17     characterise the witness as being a difficult witness who is refusing to

18     answer.  He certainly isn't doing that.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We note that the witness was answering questions,

20     however in a very short manner, and it is up to the Chamber to give

21     weight to the kind of questions and answers.  But indeed, the text below

22     number 3 is a very long text, and if you want to put details to the

23     witness, Mr. Tolimir, you should draw his attention to a specific part of

24     that.

25             Please continue.

Page 9373

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and I would

 2     like to thank you Mr. Elderkin for making this remark regarding my

 3     questioning.  I have no further questions for the witness about this text

 4     and it is not my intention to ask him to study this document.  He has

 5     better things to do.  Now I will move on to some other issues and perhaps

 6     then he can answer my questions.  Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see 1D565 in

 8     e-court?

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is a statement provided by you, Mr. Witness, on the 20th of

11     July 1996, to the state commission for gathering facts on war crimes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, this document -- a document with

13     this number is not in your list and perhaps you misspoke.  Please check

14     that again.

15             Mr. Elderkin?

16             MR. ELDERKIN:  Furthermore, if the document does show up on the

17     list and it is what General Tolimir described it as, it shouldn't be

18     broadcast obviously.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My apologies to e-court.

20     I misquoted the number.  I should have asked for 1D562 rather than 1D565.

21             So could we please pull up 1D562?  Thank you.  And, again, let me

22     repeat (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document should not be broadcast.  Please

Page 9374

 1     continue.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you see this document, witness?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Is this document indeed a statement that you provided to the

 7     bodies which we can see in the heading, in the upper left-hand corner?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Why didn't you mention in this statement that you were a member

10     of the army?

11        A.   [No verbal response]

12        Q.   Thank you.  Have you had occasion to read through this statement

13     during your earlier testimonies or earlier preparations for the

14     statement?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Have you ever seen it after you've provided it?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Would you need to read it before I can put some questions to you?

19     Because I'd like to go through this statement of yours.  Thank you.

20        A.   Well, I don't think it's necessary for me to read it through

21     again.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have a problem again.  You are overlapping,

23     both speakers, and it's difficult for the interpreters to catch

24     everything.  Mr. Elderkin?

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, given the reference to the exact

Page 9375

 1     date of the statement and to whom it was given, which is as far as I just

 2     saw page 24 lines 1 to 2 in LiveNote, I'd ask for that information to be

 3     redacted.  I don't know if this document is available elsewhere publicly

 4     and could be more easily linked to the witness's identity as a result.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is this document under seal?  Is it a

 6     confidential document?

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  If it were to be admitted, I would ask for it to

 8     be under seal, but I don't know where else it exist, whether -- for

 9     example, in the country where it was originally taken, for example, it

10     might be accessible publicly.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will redact these lines.

12             Please go ahead, Mr. Tolimir.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I don't

14     know if I'm permitted to mention place names or should I just skip over

15     it and would you then admit this document in view of the fact that

16     everything will be redacted?  In other words, I don't know how to put

17     questions to this witness if he's unwilling to read it.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said that I was

19     a member of the army and what I did while I was its member and there is

20     nothing else I can add, and the statement that I provided was brief.

21     I did not provide the full statement.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I don't see a reason to say that the

25     witness is not willing to read this document.  It is still under

Page 9376

 1     discussion and you asked the Chamber how to proceed.  I think if there is

 2     a link between the witness, in person, and a specific place, then we

 3     altogether should be very careful with that.  On the other hand, it's no

 4     problem to mention certain locations like Srebrenica because everybody

 5     knows that we are dealing with events in Srebrenica.

 6             So we should decide case by case.

 7             Please go ahead.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I only

 9     said this because the witness said that he hadn't read this statement,

10     either during the proofing for this testimony or for the earlier

11     testimonies, and that he hadn't read it since he actually made the

12     statement.  So I've asked him whether it was necessary for him to read it

13     now, to refresh his memory, but since he said that it wasn't, could we

14     then see the next page of this statement, please?  That's page 2.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask the witness, do you recall this

16     statement?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A little bit.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But you recall that you have given this statement

19     at an earlier time, years ago?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, years ago.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

22             Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Witness, would you please take a look at the second paragraph on

Page 9377

 1     page 2 of this statement?  And I'm referring to the Serbian version,

 2     where you say that in a village, and I won't mention the name of the

 3     village:

 4             "I saw a large number of assembled soldiers and civilians.

 5     I think that there may have been about 15.000 people there.  I arrived

 6     there on the 15th [as interpreted] of July 1995, and on the evening of

 7     that day, part of the soldiers and civilians went towards Kamenica

 8     Pobudjansko."

 9             My apologies, would you please redact this.

10             Well, they went in the direction that you mention here?

11             So my question based on this is what soldiers are you referring

12     to here and which civilians are you referring to?  Who was going,

13     whatever you are saying that they were going in this statement?

14        A.   Well, the civilians were from Srebrenica.  As for soldiers, I

15     don't know what soldiers these were.  I can't remember that part.

16        Q.   Thank you.  But are these your words?  Can you recall that?

17        A.   I'm not sure.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin?

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  Just one correction.  I see at page 27, line 9 a

20     reference to the 15th of July, which I think should be the 11th of July

21     as it appears in the statement.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's correct.  Thank you very much.

23             Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 9378

 1        Q.   Witness, can you tell me whether there is a possibility that this

 2     statement was actually compiled after you provided it and just trying to

 3     recapture your words?

 4        A.   Well, I'm not sure.

 5        Q.   Are you sure of any portion of the text that you had occasion to

 6     read so far, that these were in fact your words?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Could you tell us, please, whether, when you provided the

 9     statement, you signed, you placed your signature on each page of the text

10     that was typed out after you've given the statement?

11        A.   I'm not even sure of that.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at the bottom of this statement.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need the bottom of both pages, especially in

14     B/C/S, full to the bottom.  Yes, thank you.

15             Witness, can you see a handwritten name?  Is it yours?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you recall having signed this document?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I did not hear the

21     witness's answer.  Could he please repeat it?  You asked him whether he

22     had signed this document and he said that he hadn't.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did sign it.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Oh, you did, thank you.  So does that mean that what is contained

Page 9379

 1     therein are, in fact, your words?

 2        A.   Well, most probably but I can't recall every detail.  I can't

 3     recall mentioning all of these details.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you state before investigating organs that there

 5     had been an order for all able-bodied men from your town to go to the

 6     place which was mentioned a moment ago, Jaglici, and that civilians were

 7     supposed to go to Potocari?  Was this your statement?

 8        A.   Well, I heard that from other people, and we did go to Jaglici.

 9     So there was an instruction to go to Jaglici, whereas women and children

10     were supposed to go to Potocari.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now please see 1D558 in e-court?  And

12     perhaps we can hear from the witness whether he can recall this document

13     at least.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you tendering the document,

15     1D562?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Yes.

17     I would like to tender it, because we will also revisit this document if

18     the witness mentions any of the events that are contained therein.  Thank

19     you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal and the next

21     document should not be broadcast.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D562 shall be

23     assigned Exhibit D151, admitted under seal.  Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 9380

 1        Q.   In front of us we have your statement given under -- oh, no, it's

 2     your birthday -- no.  You gave the statement on the 23rd of May 1996.

 3     This statement was given to the International Criminal Tribunal for the

 4     Prosecution of persons.  My question is:  Did you talk to the

 5     investigators of the ICTY on the 23rd of May 1996?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.  I don't remember the exact date.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Take a look at the second page of your statement.

 8     Thank you.  Now, if we take a look at the second paragraph on the screen,

 9     fourth line, where you say:

10             "There was an order that all able-bodied men should go to Jaglici

11     and women and children to go to Potocari."

12             My question is as follows:  Did you state this while you were

13     giving this statement to the investigators of ICTY?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you tell us who gave this order?  What authorities gave this

16     order?

17        A.   I don't know that.  I already told you that I heard from other

18     people that there was such an order, who gave it, I don't know.

19        Q.   Yes, but here in the statement you didn't say that you heard it

20     from others.  Here you simply said the order came for all able-bodied men

21     to go to Jaglici and line up and women and children to go to Potocari.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Who gave this order?

24        A.   I heard it from other people.

25        Q.   So did you obey what you heard from other people?

Page 9381

 1        A.   Of course.

 2        Q.   So was that a normal way of issuing orders, people tell that to

 3     other people?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So you didn't have a normal system of disseminating information

 6     via couriers and others?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Well, we had many people from your place who would say, well,

 9     that a courier arrived and then informed them about what to do.  Is that

10     something that also happened in your village?

11        A.   I don't remember that.  I simply said what I remember.

12        Q.   If an order came that all able-bodied men should go to Jaglici,

13     does that mean that this order was issued by the military organs in

14     Srebrenica?

15        A.   I don't know.  It's possible.  I heard it from others.  I did not

16     hear it from some military personnel.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And when you arrived to that place where you were

18     ordered to come and line up, did somebody speak to you then?

19        A.   I don't remember.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you arrive there with your arms or without it?

21        A.   Without the arms.

22        Q.   Does that mean that everybody was unarmed?

23        A.   As far as I could see around me, nobody was armed.  Whether

24     everybody was unarmed, that I cannot tell.

25        Q.   Did you see any commander, maybe a commander from your unit or

Page 9382

 1     any other commander?

 2        A.   I don't remember.

 3        Q.   Did you go there individually, on foot, from your village or did

 4     you go with other men who comprised your unit?

 5        A.   I went with two or three other men.  It wasn't an organised

 6     movement.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have a family that went to Potocari in line

 8     with this oral order?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Does that mean that you received the order to go where you went

11     and the women received the order to go where they went?

12        A.   Well, I don't know how you could interpret that but that's what

13     was told to us.  Women to Potocari; men to Jaglici.  That's what I heard

14     and that's what was done.

15        Q.   So if something would happen to one of those who obeyed the order

16     to go where the men were ordered to go, does that mean that such a person

17     would have a right to request some compensation because it was a military

18     task to go there?

19        A.   What kind of military task?

20        Q.   But who can issue such an order?  Can such an order be issued by

21     somebody who is not authorised to give it, or can such an order be given

22     only by a person authorised to issue such orders?

23        A.   I don't know who can issue orders.  We were simply trying to save

24     our skins at the time.  We simply wanted to hide in the woods.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I asked you already, and I'm asking you once again,

Page 9383

 1     are you willing to answer my questions or not?  It's not about me.

 2     I don't need that.  We are talking here about the Trial Chamber.  They

 3     have to see what happened.  You don't have to feel obligated towards me.

 4        A.   I am answering the questions to the best of my ability.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To be very clear, you need these answers, as

 7     everybody else, like the Prosecution and the Chamber.  This is the reason

 8     why the witness is here.

 9             Mr. Elderkin?

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  Again, I'd say the question is objectionable.

11     I can't see any basis on which to accuse the witness of not giving an

12     answer.  He seems to have, again, given a clear answer in some detail and

13     that can be followed up by further questions, if necessary, but to

14     suggest again that he's trying not to answer is unfair on the witness and

15     inappropriate.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't want to repeat my comment on that.

17             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.  Thank

19     you, Your Honour.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Can you now look in the middle of the statement?  23rd row of the

22     second paragraph.  Maybe we could somehow mark it on the screen for the

23     witness.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I suggest that you read this sentence so that

25     everybody can pick out what you are referring to.

Page 9384

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  It goes as

 2     follows:

 3             "At least 200 people were killed by the ambush and they were left

 4     in that location."

 5             Maybe we could mark that part in e-court.

 6             And as I said, it's the 23rd line.  Yeah, it's here:

 7             "At least 200 people were killed by the ambush.  And they were

 8     left in that location.  We took the wounded with us and began walking

 9     again for about half an hour.  Then we were surrounded by Serbs again.

10     They had come amongst us, taking people and killing them."

11             Can we mark this part of the statement in e-court so that the

12     witness can see exactly what my question is about?

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, now you see the cursor and the screen.

14     This is the part Mr. Tolimir is referring to.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we maybe now put the cursor at

17     the beginning of the sentence, "At least 200 people were killed."  So --

18     yes, exactly, so that the witness can see it.  Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   So now the cursor is exactly at the beginning of this sentence.

21        A.   Yes, I can see it.

22        Q.   Can you say anything more about this event when 200 people were

23     killed and left to lie there?  Where exactly that happened, for instance?

24        A.   Yes, I can.

25        Q.   Go ahead.

Page 9385

 1        A.   We went through the woods and arrived to the village of Kamenica.

 2     We sat down in order to rest.  However, Serbian soldiers ambushed us,

 3     surrounded us, and started shooting from various weapons, and that's

 4     where they killed those people.  There were some wounded, we took them

 5     with us.  However, they surrounded us again and shelled us.  So the

 6     wounded were left where they were because everybody simply ran wherever

 7     they could into the woods.

 8             You want to know something else?

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you know those

10     people, were they later buried?  That location, was it somehow marked by

11     anybody, maybe some international organs?  Were you maybe later taken to

12     that location?  Can you tell us what was done with those victims?  Where

13     are they?

14        A.   I know nothing about it.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, can we go back to 1D562?

17     That's the statement by this witness.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now D151 under seal and should not be

19     broadcast.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have page 2 of

21     this statement?  It describes similar events, so I want to see whether

22     the witness will be able to remember these events now, when he takes a

23     look at the statement given to the organs of the Federation of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 9386

 1        Q.   Now can you take a look at the third paragraph, which begins

 2     with, "As we made our way..."  When you read this paragraph, let me know

 3     and then I'm going to pose my question.  Thank you.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  My question is as follows:  Where did you see these

 6     300 killed and a large number of wounded people, was it on the same axis?

 7     And what is the distance between this spot and the first spot that you

 8     described?

 9        A.   I think that all this was generally speaking from Jaglici all the

10     way down there, that there were about 300 killed people.

11        Q.   Thank you.  However, for these proceedings, it would be very

12     important if you could tell us whether everything happened in one

13     location or they were killed all the way along the road because if you

14     look here, you said:

15             "The Chetniks surrounded us and opened fire on us, killing over

16     300 people and wounding a large number.  We were in disarray as both

17     soldiers and civilians fled wherever they could, while the wounded were

18     left behind on the path."

19             So here in this statement, you say very precisely that it was on

20     some sort of path.  So can you tell us, where exactly did that happen,

21     where exactly were 300 people killed?

22        A.   I said when we went through the words from Jaglici towards

23     Kamenica and then there was about 200 people and then also down there

24     when they shelled us near Pobudje.

25        Q.   Does that mean that 500 people were killed?

Page 9387

 1        A.   No, no, no.  No, in total around 300 people.

 2        Q.   After this event that you describe here in the third paragraph,

 3     did you see any other place where there were killings and casualties?

 4        A.   No, I don't remember.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In the last sentence of this paragraph, the third

 6     paragraph, you say:

 7             "We were in disarray as both soldiers and civilians fled wherever

 8     they could, while the wounded were left behind on the path."

 9             Can you tell us what soldiers were they?  Did you see any

10     soldiers there?  What soldiers were running away?  Thank you.

11        A.   I don't remember.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Were they maybe the soldiers of the army of the

13     Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the same place where you were

14     there?

15        A.   It's possible.  I'm not sure.

16        Q.   Now, can you take a look at the second paragraph, right above,

17     where in the second sentence -- no, actually in the first sentence, you

18     say:

19             "When I came to such and such village, I saw a large number of

20     assembled soldiers and civilians.  I think there may have been about

21     15.000 people."

22             My question is as follows:  Can you remember now whether there,

23     at the assembly place, you saw any soldier -- soldiers of the Federation

24     of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25        A.   No.  I saw people.  There were some people in camouflage

Page 9388

 1     uniforms.  But I didn't see anybody wearing -- bearing any arms.  That's

 2     what I meant when I said that there were soldiers.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that you saw some people in uniform

 4     but you didn't see any weapons?

 5        A.   Yes, but I don't know exactly how many.

 6        Q.   After the VRS entered Srebrenica, did your army withdraw from

 7     that place?

 8        A.   What army?

 9        Q.   The army that had been in Srebrenica?

10        A.   How could an army be there if it was a save zone?

11        Q.   I'm simply asking you and you should answer.

12        A.   No.  I don't know.

13        Q.   All right.  You yourself said that there was a large number of

14     soldiers and civilians.  Can we take a look at another document?  Maybe

15     it would -- it should remind you that there were some soldiers.

16        A.   I said that I saw people in camouflage uniforms.  I don't know

17     how many of them, and I did not see any weapons.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Can we now take a look

19     at 1D373?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, before we move to another document,

21     we must have our first break now.  But before we break, I would like ask

22     the witness only one question:  What was your rank in the Army of Bosnia

23     and Herzegovina as a soldier?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have any rank.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You were a simple soldier?

Page 9389

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Tolimir?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, may I ask that the witness

 5     be given his statements?  Because we will continue discussing those after

 6     the break.  It would be a good thing for him to have a look at it, at all

 7     the statements, over the break, unless he has them.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think -- Mr. Elderkin?

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'm afraid it may take the entire break to call up

10     the statements all in B/C/S and hand them to the witness.  I do have some

11     copies in English.  I know the witness does have some fluency in English,

12     but I would imagine if the questioning will be in B/C/S it would be

13     preferable for all concerned that he review them in that language.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it possible to print the B/C/S version and to

15     give it to the witness?  I was told by the registrar that this is

16     possible.

17             Mr. Tolimir?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  If

19     necessary, we can provide the copies that the OTP gave us.  It takes only

20     a couple of minutes to have them copied and that would facilitate the

21     work for all of us.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the most practical way is that the

23     registrar print it and give it to the witness, but you should tell us

24     which documents you will use during the further examination.  Tell us

25     just the numbers and the registrar will provide the witness with the

Page 9390

 1     documents.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             1D558, 1D559, and what we have on our screens, D561.  So if those

 4     three documents could be copied and given to the witness over the break.

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin?

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, that's quite some reading to get

 8     through during the break.  I don't know how the witness is feeling, but

 9     it's been going quite fast this morning and perhaps the break could be

10     extended slightly so he has time to both read and also relax slightly.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think is a good recommendation.  We will have

12     our first break now and resume 15 minutes past 11.  Thank you very much.

13     And during the break, the Chamber would be -- would appreciate if you

14     could read these statements in your own language.  Thank you very much.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to give notice that the next break

18     will be a little earlier than usual, quarter past 12, because

19     I personally have another commitment.  I have to take part in a meeting

20     and therefore the last session of today will be pursuant to Rule 15 bis,

21     without my presence.

22             Sir, did you have the opportunity to read through the documents

23     in your language you were provided with?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 9391

 1             Mr. Tolimir, please continue your cross-examination.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Witness, have you been given the three statements you gave to the

 5     BH authorities and the ICTY?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Are they authentic statements in terms of their contents?  Is

 8     that what you said?  And do they all contain your signature?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Well, can you tell us which of the statements is not authentic in

11     terms of what you were saying at the time?

12        A.   Well, when I said no, I didn't mean that they weren't authentic.

13     I meant that not all of them had my signature.

14        Q.   Can you tell us which one doesn't have your signature?

15        A.   1D561 and 1D558.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can 1D558 be shown in e-court to

17     see whether it has a signature?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think again, the three statements shouldn't be

19     broadcast.  We see in the -- to shorten the procedure in the B/C/S

20     version we don't see a signature, but in the English translation we see a

21     handwriting on the bottom of the page, but we have to state again the

22     witness was provided with the B/C/S versions of the three statements.

23             Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 9392

 1        Q.   As we can see, the statements you gave about the events which

 2     transpired during the attempt to break out of Srebrenica in the direction

 3     of Tuzla, they have been signed, have they not?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And are they authentic?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I tender these three statements

 8     which are authentic according to the witness, be admitted -- I wish to

 9     tender them into evidence.  That's 1D558, 1D559.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  1D558 and 1D559 will be admitted into evidence

11     under seal.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, these documents shall be assigned

13     the following exhibits numbers, 65 ter document 1D558 shall be assigned

14     Exhibit D152, admitted under seal.  65 ter document 1D559 shall be

15     assigned Exhibit D153, admitted under seal.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   The last question put to you was by Their Honours concerning your

21     rank and your answer was that you were just an ordinary soldier.  Before

22     that, I asked you if you had seen any soldiers and your answer was that

23     you only saw people in uniform but without any weapons.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we -- can we now have 1D373

25     shown?  There we will see what the commander of the army has to say about

Page 9393

 1     whether there were any armed soldiers in the column.  This is 1D373.  The

 2     heading states, "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, BH Army, 3rd Corps

 3     command," et cetera and it's a report on the situation in Srebrenica.

 4     So, in other words, it's a document issued by the 3rd Corps, and can we

 5     turn to the next page, please?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should state that the date is the 16th of July

 7     1995.  There is no translation yet, English translation.  We have only

 8     the B/C/S version on the screen.

 9             Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  That's

11     right.  The document was written on the 16th, precisely at a time when

12     there was a breakthrough which was on the earlier day, and on the 16th,

13     the corridor was opened, as stated by the witness who was here yesterday.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, this document was produced and you will see this at the

16     bottom where we have another heading, again stating the Republic of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Main Staff of the army, the date is the 16th of

18     July 1995, and it states: "Report on the Situation in Srebrenica."

19             So what this means is that the document, the heading of which we

20     were quoting a moment ago, was basically compiled on the basis of this

21     here document; that's to say, a document issued by the Main Staff.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now go to page 4 so that the

23     witness may see the signature block?

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   You can see that the document was signed by the commander of the

Page 9394

 1     army, General Rasim Delic, and we have here the certification of

 2     transcription of the copy.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back to page 3 now?

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I will read out a portion of the document issued by Rasim Delic.

 6     And let me tell you that there is nothing for you to hide because this is

 7     a document that was given to us by the OTP.

 8        A.   I have nothing to hide.

 9        Q.   Since you said that you didn't see any soldiers in the column,

10     this is what Delic says.  Let's read from item 3, page 3, item 3 at the

11     bottom of the page.  It's been marked for you there.  And I'm quoting:

12             "The units of the 28th Division --"

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Microphone not activated]

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Page 3,

15     item 3 of the order issued by Rasim Delic on the 16th, or, rather, it's a

16     reports on the situation in Srebrenica:

17             "The units of the 28th Division of the ground forces have been

18     pulling out of Srebrenica, or rather have been fighting their way out of

19     Srebrenica.  The units of the 28th Division had remained compact.  They

20     have been successful in their activities on the temporarily occupied

21     territory.  They have been inflicting great losses on the aggressor.

22     They have so far captured eight Chetniks alive.  The units of the

23     28th Division have linked up with the units of the 2nd Corps.  They

24     continue fighting jointly on the temporarily occupied territory.  These

25     units are expected to fully link up soon.  The activities aim at taking

Page 9395

 1     advantage of the success achieved in the breakthrough."

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   This report was signed by General Rasim Delic, who was Chief of

 4     the General Staff of the BH Army at the time.  Army General Rasim Delic.

 5             He says, in item 3, that a breakthrough took place, that there

 6     were units deployed to the territory of Republika Srpska, and that they

 7     are successful in their fighting, et cetera.  So my question is:  What

 8     were they fighting with, if the only thing you saw was soldiers in

 9     uniform?

10        A.   Well, what I'd like to know is where this fighting was taking

11     place.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I can tell you that the fighting was taking place in

13     the sector of Baljkovica, this is something that several witnesses

14     testified to.  Here, there are two commanders, the commander of the

15     corps, brigadier Sackim -- Sakib Mahmuljin, the commander of the

16     3rd Corps reports on this in his document and attaches to his report a

17     report written by the army General Rasim Delic.  I've told you -- I've

18     read just now what it is that they said.  I cannot provide you with any

19     further information.  I'm not allowed to under the rules.  So I'm going

20     to ask you this, and then Their Honours will be the ones to say whether

21     there was fighting.  Could there have been civilians as part of the

22     forces attempting a breakthrough?

23        A.   Well, let me tell you this:  There may have been armed

24     individuals among them but I didn't see them.  I was leaving the area on

25     the following day, and I was captured already on the 13th, so I really

Page 9396

 1     have no knowledge about it.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us in which part of the column were you as you set

 3     out from Jaglici?  Were you at the head or at the rear?

 4        A.   At the rear.

 5        Q.   At the rear?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us who was securing the rear of the column?  Was it

 8     the BH Army?

 9        A.   I didn't see anyone securing it.

10        Q.   Do you know if the Mountain Battalion was at the rear of the

11     column protecting the column moving from Srebrenica in the direction of

12     Tuzla?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Can you tell us, did you see any senior officers, as you set out

15     from Jaglici, anyone whom you knew to have been commanding or senior

16     officer?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Can you tell us, did you see your commander, Zulfo in Jaglici?

19        A.   No, I think he had gone earlier on, he had left earlier on.

20        Q.   Very well.  I will not be asking you things you know nothing

21     about.  I read this out to you so that you would learn that there were

22     others who had other sort of information, but there is no need for us to

23     debate the issue.  Let's move to another topic you are willing to

24     discuss.  You say that over 300 civilians and soldiers were killed, along

25     the way as you came upon an ambush.  Can you tell us how you came upon

Page 9397

 1     the ambush and what happened?

 2        A.   As I set out from Jaglici on the following day, I don't know at

 3     which time, the Serbian soldiers started opening fire on us from the

 4     surrounding hills.  We went through a wooded area, a great many people

 5     were killed by gunfire.  As we reached the village of Kamenica, we

 6     stopped there for -- to get a minute's rest, but all of a sudden we came

 7     under fire.  There were a lot of people killed on this occasion.  We took

 8     along all the wounded.  Then shelling and gunfire started again.  At that

 9     point we dispersed, fleeing for our lives.

10        Q.   Thank you.  So the location where there were these many people

11     wounded or killed was Kamenica?

12        A.   Yes, from Jaglici all the way to Kamenica and on to Kasaba.

13        Q.   Did the column come under fire in Kamenica for the first time or

14     was it already under fire in Jaglici?

15        A.   It was in Jaglici that we first came under fire.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement which we will look at now.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is D51 now, can we have it

18     shown, you've signed it -- I'm sorry, it's D151.  Thank you, Aleksandar.

19     We can see page 2 of the statement.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Let's look at the third paragraph that I just referred to where

22     you said that there were over 300 people killed.  And then, in paragraph

23     4, you go on to say:

24             "I was in a group of ten of us, including so and so, and we set

25     out from Srebrenica to Kamenica.  On the way there we came across a

Page 9398

 1     civilian," and that's where you were taken prisoner by the Chetniks.

 2             Now, did I quote your words accurately?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is there anything you would like to add to this?  What happened

 5     to you?  What became of you when you were captured?  Where were you

 6     taken?

 7        A.   We tried to cross the road but we were surrounded by the Serbian

 8     soldiers and taken prisoner there.  One of us had a pistol on him, which

 9     was seized from him.  They took a rucksack that we had, and then they

10     took us to the school building in Kasaba.  We had to put our hands behind

11     our heads and that's how we got there.

12        Q.   Did you spend the night in the school building in Kasaba and were

13     you detained there?  Were you told that you were going to be kept as

14     prisoners?

15        A.   Yes, but we didn't spend the night there.

16        Q.   Very well.  What happened next?  Can you tell Their Honours?

17        A.   At that point, we were taken back to the football pitch there,

18     where there was a crowd of prisoners already.  There were quite a few

19     Serbian soldiers.  The captives were told to sit in rows.  Serbian

20     soldiers surrounded the pitch.  There were two APCs up there on the road.

21     Mladic arrived too.  He addressed us.  He told us that there is a hundred

22     defence lines between there and Tuzla and that not even a bird would be

23     able to pass through.

24        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Now let us take a look at your statement,

25     1D558, where you speak about this, and at the very start you say -- or,

Page 9399

 1     rather, at the beginning of page 2, you mention this event, so I will put

 2     a question to you while allowing you to just take a look, to jog your

 3     memory, to take a look at this statement.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, we should not publish this

 5     because there is information on this page pointing to the identity of the

 6     witness.  So we have page 1 of the statement before us.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   We can see here the portion where you mention Mladic.  That's in

 9     the last three lines.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please scroll this

11     statement up so the witness can see that portion?  Thank you.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Now, witness, can you see in line 3 from the bottom, where you

14     say, and that's on the next page in the English version:

15             "Other people arrived as well, including some wounded people who

16     were then treated by the Serbs.  Some of these men were separated and put

17     in a separate group on the pitch.  We all sat there.  And after about an

18     hour of my arrival General Ratko Mladic arrived."

19             So my question is do you recall if that was in the morning or the

20     afternoon of that day?

21        A.   It was in the afternoon.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Well, I'm asking you this because you say at one

23     point here, at 1400 hours, so this could have been at around 1500 hours

24     or 3.00 p.m.; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9400

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness the

 2     following page of the statement so that the witness can read parts of his

 3     own statement?

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Here we have it where you talk about Mladic arriving, that he

 6     came in a jeep:

 7             "... and I believe that he was dressed in a uniform.  I knew that

 8     it was Mladic because I recognised him but also because we had been told

 9     that he would come."

10             My question is this:  Who had told you that General Mladic would

11     come?

12        A.   Well, the Serbian soldiers there.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Let me quote your statement further:

14             "I was some 10 to 15 metres away from him when he gave a speech

15     standing by the side of the pitch.  He spoke without a megaphone, just

16     normally, as it was very quiet.  He stated that he was General Mladic and

17     that we would all be exchanged.  And that there were hundreds of Serb

18     lines between here -- between us and Tuzla and that not even a bird could

19     get through the lines.  He said we would be organised into groups to

20     collect all the bodies from the hills and then we would be taken to

21     Bratunac to have lunch there," and so on and so forth, and then that you

22     would be taken for an exchange.  End of quote.

23             So this is something that you mention in your statement.  Is what

24     I've read out consistent with what you said earlier?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9401

 1        Q.   Now, after all these years, can you actually remember whether it

 2     was indeed General Mladic who came there and whether he addressed you?

 3        A.   I think so.  I think it was.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Does this reflect the actual events?  In line 6,

 5     after this paragraph, there is an indication there where it says:

 6             "And then he elected five of his men to compile lists of our

 7     names, first and last names.  This took about an hour."

 8             Now, my question is this:  Was a roster actually made, was a list

 9     compiled while you were waiting on that soccer pitch?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did all of this indicate that you would indeed be exchanged?

12        A.   Well, that's what we thought.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Was there a camera filming this, your assemblage

14     there at the football pitch and the address by General Mladic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Later on, were you taken in the direction which Mladic had

17     mentioned in his speech?  Were you taken to Potocari for lunch and -- to

18     Bratunac for lunch and then on?

19        A.   Well, unfortunately we were taken to Bratunac but we weren't

20     given any lunch.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Unfortunately or, rather, you did not speak about

22     this at length in the other statement but you did arrive in the end --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's request:  Could the accused

24     please repeat the question?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters didn't

Page 9402

 1     catch the whole of the last question.  Please repeat the question.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   My question was whether you had actually arrived in Batkovic, as

 5     Mladic had indicated, where then you were exchanged in December 1995,

 6     could you please answer the question?

 7        A.   Well, I did manage to get there because I managed to escape the

 8     execution.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe this is now

11     on record and I will now proceed.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Witness, on the way to Bratunac, did the soldiers still keep

14     telling you that you would be exchanged once you got to Bratunac?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is it possible that someone had actually changed the order issued

17     by the chief -- by the Commander-in-Chief, and that you would be

18     exchanged once you reached Bratunac?

19        A.   I don't know anything about that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You were only exchanged in December of that year and

21     we know what you went through.  Could you now tell us, please, something

22     about a question that was put to you by the Prosecutor?  He questioned

23     you at length about your detention at Batkovic.  Would you please tell

24     us:  Were you registered by the ICRS as soon as you arrived at Batkovic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9403

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Was this organised by the prison authorities who held

 2     you there?

 3        A.   I don't know anything about that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Well, do you know who it is who can organise the way

 5     work is being done and the way the prisoners are treated at a detention

 6     facility?

 7        A.   I don't.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us why you were taken to these sites

 9     that you had survived?  As you said, the execution sites.  And you

10     mentioned the areas that were completely voided of Muslim populations,

11     where everyone had fled.  And why then were you taken to the areas that

12     were settled, where there were also UNPROFOR members and so on?  So can

13     you tell us, have you given that any consideration?  Why would that be

14     done?

15        A.   Well, I think you are better placed to know the answer to that

16     question.

17        Q.   Well, thank you, but I keep wondering why you were taken through

18     all this whole ordeal, taken to Zvornik and so on, where you would have

19     to actually go through crossroads where there were in place all these

20     international -- members of the international community and so on, while

21     they could take you to other places where you could be accommodated and

22     exchanged.

23        A.   Well, I don't know the answer.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to ask you a few questions about one

25     of your statements, or testimonies.  What would you prefer, that I put

Page 9404

 1     these questions to you in open session or in private session?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know what you're referring to.

 3        Q.   Well, I would like to ask you about a trial that wasn't conducted

 4     before this Tribunal but in another country.  Now, I don't want to go

 5     into further details.  Perhaps the Prosecutor can tell us and assist you

 6     with whether it should be in open session or in private session.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we should go into private session,

 9     referring to -- I'm referring to the discussion we had yesterday.

10             Mr. Elderkin?

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  That's exactly the position of the Prosecution,

12     Your Honour.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn to private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9405











11 Pages 9405-9407 redacted. Private session.















Page 9408

 1     (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Tolimir, on page 56, lines 15 to 16, you said, as the witness

 6     stated, that he didn't know the answers to the questions that are put to

 7     him.  I don't think that this is a correct comment.  He didn't know many

 8     answers to many of your questions, but he answered some of your

 9     questions.  Just to make it a little bit more specific.

10             The document 1D556 will be received under seal.  I misspoke

11     again.  566, yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 65 ter number 1D566 shall be admitted

13     into evidence and assigned Exhibit D154 under seal, if I'm correct.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, that should be under seal because there

15     would be a link to the name of the witness.

16             The document 1D373, I would like to ask the Defence, Mr. Tolimir,

17     are you tendering that as well?  This is not a statement of this witness

18     but a different document you used with the witness.

19             Mr. Gajic?

20             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, we move for this

21     document to be admitted.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification pending

23     translation.

24             Mr. Tolimir?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I would

Page 9409

 1     just like to say why I said what I said, if you permit me.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are dealing with the document.  You may do it

 3     a moment later.  1D373 will be marked for identification pending

 4     translation.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 1D373 shall be

 6     assigned Exhibit D155, marked for identification.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Tolimir?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  A moment

10     ago you commented on what I just said.  To my last question, page 56,

11     line 3, the witness answered:

12             "I know nothing about this."

13             And then I said that I was not going to ask him anything more

14     simply because he said that he didn't know anything more about it.  Thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I take it that that was perhaps a problem of

17     interpretation.  The singular and the plural, the question and the

18     questions.  I think we have clarified the situation.

19             Yes.  I'm reminded that there is another document, 1D561.  What

20     about this?  Yes, you were tendering that as well?  I see that should be

21     admitted and will be admitted as well.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's a document from the

23     Prosecution, so we do not move to have it admitted, and we also did not

24     use it during the cross-examination.  So we do not move for it to be

25     admitted.

Page 9410

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  This is a clear position.

 2             Mr. Elderkin, do you have re-examination?

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  Briefly, yes, and certainly I'll be finished

 4     before quarter past the hour, if I may.  Could I go into private session

 5     at the beginning, please?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd ask to see --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9411











11 Page 9411 redacted. Private session.















Page 9412

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:

 9        Q.   Sir, General Tolimir has represented in his questioning on,

10     I think, around page 52 and onwards, that there were reasons why the

11     Bosnian Serbs who had captured you would not want to take you up to

12     Zvornik if they wanted to execute the men they had captured.  In fact,

13     your answer just now, you referred to the fact that there were

14     international personnel including, for example the DutchBat peacekeepers,

15     perhaps other NGOs present around the Bratunac area but not around the

16     Zvornik area.  Does that correctly represent your understanding of where

17     there were international personnel around the time you were captured?

18        A.   I understood that he asked me whether they were in Srebrenica.

19     That's the question that I answered.

20        Q.   After the time you were captured on the 13th of July, was your

21     treatment by the Bosnian Serb soldiers who had captured you such that

22     they were treating you in a way where you expected to be exchanged?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I'd like to ask a little additional detail.  Were you provided

25     food at any point after your capture, before you were taken from

Page 9413

 1     Nova Kasaba to Bratunac, then to Pilica?

 2        A.   Once, in Pilica.

 3        Q.   And were you provided with sufficient water throughout those

 4     three days?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Were the conditions in which you were kept from the time of your

 7     capture until the 16th of July humane conditions in your view?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   In your prior testimony, you referred to the list of names being

10     prepared while General Mladic was present at Nova Kasaba on the 13th of

11     July.  Apart from that time when your name was taken, were you

12     interviewed during the time of your capture until the 16th of July?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Was your name taken on any other occasion during that period?

15        A.   No, not until the camp.

16        Q.   And you said that the Red Cross registered you on arrival at the

17     camp.  Had you been registered by the Red Cross at any time from your

18     capture on the 13th of July until you arrived at the camp?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Thank you very much, witness.

21             MR. ELDERKIN:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Elderkin.

23             Judge Nyambe has a question.

24                           Questioned by the Court:

25             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I just wonder if you can clarify some detail for

Page 9414

 1     me.  From the time when you were captured up to the time when you

 2     surrendered to the Red Cross, how long were you in incarceration or in

 3     detention or in prison?

 4        A.   You are talking about the camp?

 5             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I'm talking about from the time when you were

 6     captured up to the time when you surrendered to the Red Cross, I don't

 7     know whether it was at the camp or another type of place.

 8        A.   Yes.  It was from the 13th to the 26th.

 9             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Of July?

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this

13     concludes your examination.  You are now free to return to your normal

14     activities and your home.  The Chamber would like to thank you that you

15     were able to come to The Hague again and to help us finding out the

16     truth.  Thank you very much and the court usher will assist you to leave

17     the courtroom.  But, please, wait a moment, stay there.  We will leave

18     the courtroom first and then your security will be acknowledged.  Thank

19     you very much again.

20             We break now and resume -- do you want to have the floor,

21     Mr. Elderkin?

22             MR. ELDERKIN:  A matter of seconds, simply the question about

23     P252 from the beginning of the day, that should, indeed, please be under

24     seal.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  D252?

Page 9415

 1             MR. ELDERKIN:  P, I understand P252.  It was referred to as an

 2     intercept.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed, that should be under seal.  Thank

 4     you very much.  We break now and the Chamber will resume at quarter to

 5     1.00.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

 9             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session.  As

10     you know, our president Judge Fluegge cannot be with us for this session.

11     So according to Rule 15 bis, the Trial Chamber can have this hearing

12     according to the rule.  I will have the privilege of chairing this last

13     session.

14             Madam Prosecutor, is the next witness ready?

15             MS. HASAN:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  The next witness is

16     ready.  And just -- this witness will be requiring a Rule 90(E) caution.

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I know that the Trial Chamber had

18     decided to hear this witness as a viva voce witness and not turn him into

19     a 92 bis witness; is that it?

20             MS. HASAN:  That's correct.  He will be -- he is a viva voce

21     witness given the Chamber's ruling on that, but what I was referring to

22     was a Rule 90 caution in the event he gets asked a question that is --

23     that may incriminate, may be incriminating.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes.  I understood that perfectly.

25     I also know that this witness had not been granted any protective

Page 9416

 1     measures.  Is that the case?  No pseudonym, no voice distortion or face

 2     distortion; right?

 3             MS. HASAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  This matter came up just recently.

 4     It seems that the Registry record didn't show that there were any

 5     protective measures, but the last time he testified in Popovic, right

 6     before he testified, there was an oral decision that he be granted face

 7     distortion.  And that -- I can give you the reference for that decision.

 8     That was in page 14616 of the Popovic case, on the 3rd of September 2007.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, if I understood

12     you correctly, you would like these measures to be maintained by this

13     Trial Chamber, is that it?  You want the same protective measures?

14             MS. HASAN:  My understanding, Your Honour, is that given the

15     order of the Court in Popovic, the measures still apply to this witness.

16     The witness has indicated that he still wants these measures in place.

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  The Trial

18     Chamber is satisfied and the measures will be granted.

19             I'm asking the Registry first to move into private session and

20     then to escort the witness into the courtroom.

21                           [Closed session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9417

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, registrar.  Once again,

 8     good afternoon, witness.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Could you please read the solemn

11     declaration that the usher is going to show to you?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  MILE SIMANIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Please sit down.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, the Rules of Procedure

19     and Evidence of this Tribunal provide for a number of rights as far as

20     witnesses are concerned.  And in your case, I wish to read out loud

21     Rule 90(E) of our rules which might be useful for you.

22             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

23     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

24     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

25     as evidence in a subsequent Prosecution against the witness for any

Page 9418

 1     offence other than false testimony."

 2             Have you understood this?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I have.  I'm not a lawyer

 4     myself.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

 6             Madam Prosecutor has questions to put to you, for her

 7     examination-in-chief, and then the floor will be to the Defence, given to

 8     the Defence.  Ms. Prosecutor, you have the floor.

 9             MS. HASAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Examination by Ms. Hasan:

11        Q.   Good afternoon, sir, just as a preliminary matter, we are working

12     with three languages in this courtroom, so I'm going to try to speak very

13     slowly and I'd ask that you speak slowly too and wait before -- wait

14     between me asking the question and you answering the question so that the

15     interpreters can do their job.  And if I ask you any question that you

16     don't understand, please let me know and I will do my best to rephrase it

17     so that you do understand it.  As you know, my name is Abeer Hasan, and I

18     will proceed with my questions.  For the record, what is your name?

19        A.   My name is Mile Simanic.

20        Q.   And what is your place and date of birth?

21        A.   9th of April 1956, the village of Gacici, Sekovici municipality.

22        Q.   And can you tell us where you resided in 1995?

23        A.   In 1995, I used to live in Vlasenica.

24        Q.   And, sir, what do you do for a living?

25        A.   I'm still a civil engineer.

Page 9419

 1        Q.   And could you briefly tell us about the education you received?

 2        A.   You mean how I received it?  During my whole education?

 3        Q.   No.  If you could tell us the degrees you received.

 4        A.   I'm a civil engineer.  I work in this profession for a number of

 5     years.  Actually, ever since I graduated at the Sarajevo University.

 6        Q.   And when did you obtain your engineering degree at Sarajevo

 7     University?

 8        A.   In 1981.

 9        Q.   And before the war, were you working as a construction engineer?

10        A.   Yes, yes.  I also worked at that time as a civil engineer or

11     construction engineer in Vlasenica.

12        Q.   And generally speaking, can you give us an idea of the kinds of

13     projects you worked on?

14        A.   I used to work in a company called Local Authority for Roads and

15     Infrastructure of the Vlasenica Municipality.  I worked mostly on the low

16     level construction project and also on building of some facilities and

17     objects.  The finance would come from the local authorities.  I was the

18     supervisor of the projects, which means that sometimes I had to put some

19     corrections into the plans.  And also in that same company that I already

20     mentioned, I would supervise the work of other organs.  This is a local

21     authority organ and the abbreviation that we used in B/C/S is SIZ, S-I-Z.

22     That's really the shortest way to explain that part of my work.

23        Q.   And were you engaged in the army at any time?

24        A.   I served in the JNA in 1977 and 1978.

25        Q.   And where were you based or was this your compulsory service for

Page 9420

 1     the JNA?

 2        A.   Yes.  That was part of my compulsory service.

 3        Q.   And then were you mobilised when the war broke out?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   And where were you assigned?

 6        A.   You mean in the early days of the hostilities or latterly?

 7        Q.   No, when the war broke out, around 1992.

 8        A.   When the war broke out, I was mobilised and assigned to the

 9     Territorial Defence of Vlasenica.  Our unit was stationed in hotel

10     Panorama in Vlasenica.

11        Q.   And if we can now turn to 1995, what was your rank at that time?

12        A.   At the time I held the rank of major, of the reserve force, that

13     is.

14        Q.   And what unit were you engaged in?

15        A.   I was engaged in the 5th Engineers Battalion.

16        Q.   And this 5th Engineer Battalion, which corps was it subordinated

17     to?

18        A.   It was subordinated to the Drina Corps.

19        Q.   And can you tell us how many people made up the 5th Engineering

20     Battalion?

21        A.   A bit over a hundred.  I can't give you the exact figure.  110,

22     120, roughly.

23        Q.   And can you -- so that we understand a little bit more about this

24     5th Engineering Battalion, can you tell us what its function was?

25        A.   Its task was to serve whatever needs the corps had in terms of

Page 9421

 1     engineering works.  We received all our orders from the corps and the

 2     unit could not be otherwise engaged, if it did not have an order to that

 3     effect from its superior command which was that of the Drina Corps.

 4     I was charged with construction works within the unit.  I was engaged in

 5     road works, bridge repairs, development of a passive reflector that was

 6     needed for the telecommunications system in Vlasenica.  We were also

 7     working on the water supply system, and there was also an overhead power

 8     line, high voltage power line in Vlasenica, for which we had to develop a

 9     project.  This is what I was engaged in.  However, the unit also dealt

10     with mine clearance, laying minefields, and other activities that were

11     more closely related to the military purpose of the unit.

12             I would also like to add the following.  My commander and

13     I divided up the work across the unit in such a way that I was charged

14     with whatever construction works there were, which was my specialty

15     anyhow, and the commander, who was an active serviceman, was occupied

16     with the military activities and activities that I wasn't specifically

17     trained for.

18        Q.   Sir, you referred to the unit, and in your reference to the unit,

19     are you talking about the 5th Engineering Battalion?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  5th Engineering Battalion.

21        Q.   And you mentioned that the unit dealt with mine clearance and

22     laying minefields.  Was the battalion also involved in clearing

23     obstacles?

24        A.   I did mention that.  Perhaps it wasn't interpreted.  I said that

25     we laid minefields and cleared areas of mines.  It depended on the orders

Page 9422

 1     given.

 2        Q.   What about setting ambushes?  Did your battalion -- was your

 3     battalion engaged in that?

 4        A.   A battalion -- the battalion was not a combat unit.  It was a

 5     service-providing unit, which had to serve the needs for engineering work

 6     within the corps.  The makeup of the unit was such that most of its

 7     members came from the profession of builders who, before the war, used to

 8     work in various military posts.  The majority of them were of an advanced

 9     age.  That's why we chose to focus predominantly on engineering or

10     construction works for the purposes of the corps.

11        Q.   Sir, you mentioned that the battalion was involved in laying of

12     mines.  There were members of the 5th Engineering Battalion who had

13     expertise in the laying of mines, is that -- is that correct?

14        A.   You're right.  One company, which can only figuratively speaking

15     be called a company, it was called the Company of Pioneers and it

16     numbered some 15 to 20 men.  Ten of them were Pioneers, which meant

17     people trained for laying mines and de-mining.

18        Q.   And just returning to the question I asked you before, were any

19     members of this battalion involved in setting ambushes?

20        A.   We weren't setting ambushes anywhere outside of our barracks in

21     Konjevic Polje.  If you were referring to a document which says that we

22     had been setting ambushes, this meant that we would have more men

23     deployed at night in the stretches between the various guard posts, as

24     well as around the minefields that had been laid around the barracks

25     itself.  Outside of the barracks, we didn't have any sort of

Page 9423

 1     interventions in terms of setting ambushes or any other military

 2     activities.

 3             Excuse me, I have to add that we were a small unit, in terms of

 4     our strength.  We spent most of the time out in the field.  Thus, we

 5     would secure the barracks by dint of the two minefields on both sides of

 6     the road from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac and the guard posts which had

 7     been designated previously.

 8             So, in terms of this sort of activity, we only were charged with

 9     providing security to the barracks itself.

10        Q.   Let's go back to the formation of the 5th Engineering Battalion.

11     Who was the commander of the battalion?

12        A.   Milenko Avramovic was battalion commander.

13        Q.   And what was his rank?

14        A.   Captain First Class.

15        Q.   In 1995, what was his rank?  Was it Captain First Class?

16        A.   In 1995, he was Captain First Class.  At a later date, he was

17     given the rank of Major.  I don't know when this was.

18        Q.   And you have briefly spoken about his role in the battalion.  But

19     can you tell me what his role was as the commander of the battalion?  Can

20     you give me a little bit more details on that?  What were his duties, his

21     responsibilities?

22        A.   Well, as its commander, he was in command of the battalion.  I've

23     already told you that we had, the two of us, divided up the work because

24     he would not have been able to deal with the work-load on his own.  He

25     wasn't too happy about attending various construction sites, so he left

Page 9424

 1     the entire construction business to me.  When I wasn't able to attend to

 2     everything because we had some of these sites that were pretty remote, he

 3     would give me a hand in checking some of the construction sites that

 4     I was unable to go to.  And the way we divided up the work was that he

 5     would be dealing with the military activities of de-mining and the rest

 6     I mentioned.

 7        Q.   Was it that commander's duty to know where his units were

 8     positioned and what they were engaged in, the materials, the assets of

 9     the battalion, was that something that fell within his responsibility?

10        A.   Well, he was supposed to know.  Whenever something was done, it

11     was the result of an order issued by the higher level command.  So

12     everybody had to know what was being done at which time.

13        Q.   So would the whole battalion be informed of orders that would

14     come from the Drina Corps?

15        A.   No.  By no means.  Only those who were directly involved.  Once

16     an order is issued by the corps, a more detailed order is issued

17     detailing who would be doing what, and then it's copied to the relevant

18     individuals.  Once the work is complete, a report is drawn up about it

19     and sent to the superior command.

20        Q.   And would your commander know of all the orders coming down from

21     the Drina Corps command?

22        A.   Well, I don't know if he was aware of all the orders.

23        Q.   Was it his duty to know?

24        A.   You know, I was a reserve officer.  It wasn't my line of work.

25     I suppose it was his duty, but I don't know what else to tell you.

Page 9425

 1        Q.   Sir, what was your title or what was your role in the

 2     5th Engineering Battalion?

 3        A.   My title was deputy commander of the 5th Engineering Battalion.

 4        Q.   And sir, when you were engaged in that role, did you wear a

 5     military uniform?

 6        A.   Yes, I wore a military uniform.

 7        Q.   If the commander of the 5th Engineering Battalion was not

 8     present, would -- who would take over his responsibilities and duties?

 9        A.   Well, most probably his deputy.  If the deputy is absent as well,

10     then the duty officer of the unit would take over.

11        Q.   And, sir, when you refer to his deputy, who are you referring to?

12        A.   Well, I was his deputy.

13        Q.   Did you have the authority to issue orders to your units within

14     the 5th Engineering Battalion?

15        A.   I didn't have a power to issue orders independently.  The unit

16     could be engaged solely on the basis of an order from the superior

17     command, at least that's what I was told, that there had to be an order

18     on the basis of which an order can be given directly to the unit.

19        Q.   And in the absence of your commander, would you be responsible

20     for relaying an order from the Drina Corps command to the appropriate

21     companies or units within the battalion?

22        A.   If I received an order, it was my duty to implement it, and

23     I could not have done it in any other way but by relaying it to the units

24     that would be appropriate to implement it.

25        Q.   Sir, does the name Carina mean anything to you?

Page 9426

 1        A.   Carina?

 2        Q.   Carina.

 3        A.   I don't know what you mean.  Do you mean the name or customs?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes:  It means customs.

 5             MS. HASAN:

 6        Q.   What was the 5th Engineering Battalion's code name in 1995?

 7        A.   For the purposes of communication, you mean?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   Well, it changed.  I don't know.  You've caught me up short

10     there.  I think it was one of the code names of the battalion, but it

11     would be the signalmen who would know that.  Let me add this:  We had a

12     field telephone line, induction lines, as it were, which was out of order

13     for most of the time.  It was more out of working order than in working

14     order.  Because it was a line that stretched on the ground, and there

15     were frequently times when the lines weren't working.

16        Q.   Okay, sir.  The battalion, the 5th Engineering Battalion, where

17     were its headquarters in July of 1995?

18        A.   Officially, the command of the 5th Engineering Battalion was in

19     Milici, next to a sports field.  However, because of shortage of space,

20     we were relocated to Konjevic Polje.  It was supposed to be a location

21     solely for the storage of machinery and other assets such -- including

22     supplies.  Eventually, a house that had been wrecked was repaired and the

23     command was housed there.

24        Q.   Can you tell us what type of machinery the 5th Engineering

25     Battalion had?

Page 9427

 1        A.   Well, we had some old machines.  Would you want me to list them

 2     all?

 3        Q.   Yes, please.

 4        A.   First we had a loader.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the make of it.

 6        A.   It was very old and it needed a lot of repairing before it could

 7     be made fully operational.  We also had a bulldozer, TG110, which we used

 8     for digging up roads where the soil was very hard.  It was also an old

 9     one, though admittedly a bit better than the loader.  But it was the sort

10     of bulldozer that had the lowest strength of the possible bulldozers you

11     could have.  We also had a military machine, it was a tractor, KN, that

12     was its designation.  It had a loading spoon on the front and a small

13     spoon for -- or a like a backhoe that would be used for digging ditches.

14     Its strength wasn't great but it could be used for small-scale works.

15             Next, we had two small trucks, namely FAPs 13.  Furthermore, we

16     had five trailers.  They were anyway never used, they were never even

17     switched on.  They just were parked there.  Maybe they were dredges.  We

18     also had some pontoons or rafters, we actually had four rafting points,

19     like -- or actually they were more like river ferries.  We had four

20     places, ferry points, but only three rafters, which I don't believe were

21     ever operational, at least during the time I was there, because an

22     embargo was in place between Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23        Q.   Thank you, and sir, you mentioned that you had a loader, and you

24     noted that the interpreter hadn't picked up the type, which is correct.

25     Could you please tell us what type of loader that was?

Page 9428

 1        A.   The designation of this loader was ULT.  I don't remember the

 2     number.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And the ferry points that you mentioned, where were

 4     those located?

 5        A.   Well, they were the pontoon points on Drina, Petrica, Fakovici,

 6     Bosansko.  Also Sopotnik was in our books as a ferry or pontoon point but

 7     there was no pontoon in there.

 8        Q.   And you also mentioned that the battalion had certain materials.

 9     Can you tell us what materials you had?

10        A.   No, we didn't have any materials, building materials.  In the

11     military parlance, materiel, we only used to have explosives and mines.

12        Q.   So the storage that was set up in Konjevic Polje, at the command,

13     that storage contained mines and explosives?

14        A.   Yes, yes.  Mines, explosives, fuses.  It was stored in two

15     buildings that had been rebuilt for that purpose and hence it became

16     warehouses.

17        Q.   And did you have -- in Konjevic Polje, at the command, did you

18     have offices for the battalion?

19        A.   I already mentioned the fact that we had rebuilt a house into our

20     command.  So we had offices and dormitories there.  In those other houses

21     where the logistics platoon was situated they used the one building for

22     their own accommodation.  This logistics platoon mostly spent its time in

23     Konjevic Polje.

24        Q.   And was the battalion equipped with a kitchen?

25        A.   Well, I just told you that the logistics platoon was there, and

Page 9429

 1     the kitchen was definitely part of that logistics platoon.  It was behind

 2     the school.  There was a thermo power plant, and we had rebuilt it so

 3     that then we had on one side a kitchen and a classroom and on the other

 4     side the dining-room and another classroom.  We used it as the

 5     dining-room.

 6             MS. HASAN:  May we have P444 displayed on the screen, please?

 7        Q.   Sir, do you see on this photograph the building where the

 8     5th Engineering Battalion offices were housed?

 9        A.   You can't see it here.  You can't see this building.

10        Q.   You mentioned that it was attached to a school.  Do you see the

11     school in this photograph?

12        A.   No, I can't see it here.

13             MS. HASAN:  Can we just enlarge that photograph so that we get a

14     closer view of the building?

15        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this intersection?

16        A.   As far as I can see, this is the intersection in Konjevic Polje.

17        Q.   And with this enlargement, do you see the school to which the

18     office was attached to?

19        A.   The offices were not attached to the school.  There was some

20     distance between the school and the offices but I can't see it here, no,

21     not in this photo.  That house is not in this photo.

22        Q.   Were any of these buildings used by the battalion?

23        A.   No, no.  None of these buildings, the buildings that you can see

24     in this photo.

25        Q.   Sir, can you tell us, this intersection that you recognise, can

Page 9430

 1     you tell me what -- where this road leads to?

 2        A.   I can.  But how can I orient you on this picture?  I don't know

 3     that.

 4        Q.   Well --

 5        A.   Okay.  I'm going to simply refer to left and right and maybe it

 6     will be enough for you to find your bearings in the picture.

 7        Q.   Let's try that.

 8        A.   So this road here that goes towards the right side of the

 9     picture, that's the road between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac.  And this

10     road with lots of curves, if I may say that, that's the Zvornik-Vlasenica

11     road.  Shall I repeat it with the -- with this pencil?

12        Q.   Yes, please, if you could.

13        A.   So this here, this is the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road.  And this

14     here, this is the Konjevic Polje-Zvornik road.  This part here, that's

15     the road going from Konjevic Polje to Milici and Vlasenica.

16             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic, please?

17             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for the

18     interruption but I have a suggestion.  Maybe in order to have a clearer

19     transcript, the witness should actually put some markings on the photo,

20     because this way we are going to be left with a transcript which is not

21     going to be entirely understandable.

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] You're absolutely right, but in

23     order to do so, we should give the pen to the witness so that he can

24     write on the picture.

25             Mr. Usher, could you please make sure that the witness does have

Page 9431

 1     the pen?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when I was moving the pencil,

 3     I could see it.  What, should I do it again?  All right.  I'll repeat it.

 4     This road here that I have just marked, this is the road between Konjevic

 5     Polje and Bratunac.

 6             MS. HASAN:

 7        Q.   If I could briefly interrupt you, could you put perhaps KB to

 8     indicate that that's the road from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac?

 9        A.   You mean K-B?

10        Q.   Correct.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes.  Please put K/B with the

13     direction of the arrow.  Then we will see towards which direction the

14     road is heading.

15             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

16             MS. HASAN:

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now can you do the same with the other road and tell

18     us where that road leads?

19        A.   So using the same system of designation, I'm going to put K-Z,

20     Konjevic Polje-Zvornik.

21        Q.   And can you -- sorry, were you going to --

22        A.   Should I also mark the third segment of the road?

23        Q.   Yes, please.

24        A.   [Marks]

25             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

Page 9432

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Konjevic Polje-Milici road.

 2             MS. HASAN:

 3        Q.   Sir, can you tell us, relative to the -- you said this picture

 4     doesn't capture the school which had -- which was used by the battalion

 5     or some attachment to it.  Can you tell us where that is relative to

 6     these roads?

 7        A.   The building of the elementary school and the place that we used,

 8     and I have to emphasise that in that school we only used that one small

 9     classroom which was slightly set apart from the rest of the school, it is

10     further away in the direction of Bratunac.  I don't know the scale of

11     this photo but approximately from this intersection, the school is about

12     600 or 700 metres away.  That's the first of our facilities, and the last

13     of our facilities on that road is maybe a kilometre away.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, I note the time.

16             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] You're absolutely right,

17     Madam Prosecutor.  I was just waiting for the witness to stop talking.

18     So we've reached the end of our hearing today, and we shall resume on

19     Monday, 7th of February, at 9.00.

20             Sir, we haven't finished with your testimony, so we shall resume

21     with you on Monday, and I would like to remind you that you are this

22     Tribunal's witness and therefore you cannot speak about the proceedings

23     with anyone, and you are not -- you cannot speak about it with the Office

24     of the Prosecutor.

25             I would like to thank all the parties, as well as all the people

Page 9433

 1     who have assisted us during this hearing.

 2             Mr. Registrar, I think that we have to go into private session so

 3     that the witness can leave the room.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Madam Prosecutor, would you like -- do you have

 6     anything to tell us about this document?

 7             MS. HASAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  I understand that we cannot keep

 8     these markings to the next session, so I'd like to tender this now as the

 9     next exhibit.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The document is admitted.

11             Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  This document shall be

13     assigned Exhibit P1766.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Well,

15     I would like to thank once more all the parties and all the people who

16     have helped us in this courtroom and outside the courtroom.  The hearing

17     is adjourned.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of February

20                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.