Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9517

 1                           Tuesday, 8 February 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody.

 6             We are in the middle of re-examination.  The witness should be

 7     brought in, please.  And then, Ms. Hasan.

 8             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, I just want to address briefly --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First you should address and then we go into

10     closed session to enable the witness to enter the courtroom.

11             MS. HASAN:  I just wanted -- I wanted to address my estimate that

12     I gave yesterday at the end of the day of the length of my

13     re-examination.  I did go over the yesterday's transcript and there's

14     three main areas that I'd like to cover with this witness on

15     re-examination.  One taking -- going back to where I left off about the

16     region where the minefields were set, the securing of the barracks; then

17     I'd like to discuss -- ask him some questions about the communication

18     facilities as well as the communication with the MUP in the -- in that

19     area; and then, finally, to touch on some of the documents that were --

20     General Tolimir put to the witness about communications going up to --

21     from the Drina Corps to the Main Staff.

22             Those three areas, I estimate each area will take ten minutes,

23     so, in total, if I could request 30 minutes to complete the

24     re-examination.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Hopefully we will manage in that time and there's

Page 9518

 1     no objection to that.

 2             We turn into private session.  In fact, into closed session.

 3                           [Closed session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome back to the

13     courtroom.  May I remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth you

14     made at the beginning of your testimony still applies.

15             And Ms. Hasan is continuing her re-examination.

16             Ms. Hasan, please.

17                           WITNESS:  MILE SIMANIC [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           Re-examination by Ms. Hasan: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Simanic.

21             MS. HASAN:  May we have Exhibit P44 displayed on our screens.

22     Page 37 in e-court.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  This is a single page only document.

24             MS. HASAN:  Sorry, I ...

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 9519

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I assume that you are, in fact, referring to

 2     another document which is plain and without markings.  Is that correct?

 3             MS. HASAN:  That's correct.  It's 104.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  P104.  We would like to have that on the screen.

 5             MS. HASAN:  No.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MS. HASAN:  Apologies, it's P94.  Page 37.

 8        Q.   This is the photograph of the school we took a look at yesterday,

 9     and you identified it as -- that a part of that school -- behind the

10     school was used as a dining hall and a kitchen where your battalion ate

11     their meals.

12             You also testified that behind the school there were some smaller

13     buildings, including the offices of the battalion, as well as a

14     warehouse.  Then the logistics security, as well as the logistics

15     platoon.

16             MS. HASAN:  May we turn to page 36 in e-court.

17        Q.   Sir, if you take a look at this photograph, this aerial image,

18     the Prosecution has determined through its investigations that that

19     building in the centre of that image is the school that you have

20     identified as having used.

21             Now, if I can just -- actually, at this moment ask the

22     Court Usher to give the witness a pen in order that he may mark this

23     image?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the completeness of the record, you're

25     referring to the Konjevic Polje school, aren't you.

Page 9520

 1             MS. HASAN:  That's correct.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             The witness said yesterday that his unit, the unit to which he

 5     belonged did not use the school.  Other forces used the school.  However,

 6     the Prosecutor just now said that he said that they had used the school.

 7     I would like the transcript to reflect accurately what the witness said.

 8             Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, Ms. Hasan, in my recollection, it was

10     slightly different what the witness was saying yesterday from what you

11     were putting to him just a moment ago.  If I remember correctly, he was

12     referring to buildings behind the school where the little office was

13     situated, where parts of -- where the administration of his unit was

14     located.  But you --

15             MS. HASAN:  Perhaps I can just clarify with the witness.

16        Q.   Where was the dining hall and the kitchen that was used by your

17     battalion?

18        A.   Should I answer?

19        Q.   Yes, please.

20        A.   I said that we used just one small part behind the school.  This

21     is a boiler room that was adapted into a kitchen.  And there was a

22     classroom that had its entrance from the top side, and we only used that

23     when there was a large number of soldiers in Konjevic Polje.  When there

24     were fewer soldiers, then there was no need for that.  It wasn't

25     necessary to cook meals in large quantities, so then the logistics

Page 9521

 1     organised itself differently in that case.

 2        Q.   Could you just draw a circle around the part of the building

 3     that -- the boiler room that you're referring to where the dining-room

 4     was held.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Now --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 8             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just like to

 9     ask the Prosecutor, if possible, because I see a large blue circle in the

10     centre of this photograph which was not something that the witness

11     marked, so I would like Ms. Hasan to explain what this circle is, and can

12     the transcript reflect that the circle was not drawn in by this witness.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think by your remark it is now stated on the

14     record that this was prepared before showing this photograph, aerial

15     image, to the witness.

16             Ms. Hasan.

17             MS. HASAN:

18        Q.   Mr. Simanic, the box to the left, top left of this image, can you

19     tell me what you see there?  What is that?

20        A.   Well, I can see some buildings at the base of it.  And I think

21     that our offices were in this building here that I'm going to mark now.

22        Q.   Could you please mark that with a 1.

23        A.   Can you see it?

24        Q.   Yes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And could you please mark the other locations you

Page 9522

 1     have marked earlier and put a number 2 next to this earlier marking, in

 2     the school building.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             Ms. Hasan.

 6             MS. HASAN:

 7        Q.   And can you tell me what those buildings below the offices are?

 8        A.   I don't know what those buildings were below the offices.

 9        Q.   Perhaps I can give you a closer view of that area?

10             MS. HASAN:  Could we please have 65 ter 1068.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering this marked aerial photograph?

12             MS. HASAN:  Yes.  I'm going to come back to this document, but we

13     should mark it as the next exhibit.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering it?

15             MS. HASAN:  Yes, I'd like to tender it as the next exhibit.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received with the markings.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

18     Exhibit number P1770.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The reason why I ask for that is you will lose

20     the markings if the aerial photograph will be removed without admission.

21             Please go ahead.

22             MS. HASAN:  May we have 65 ter 1068 displayed on the screen.

23     And, again, just for the record, these markings in yellow are not -- were

24     not made by the witness.

25        Q.   Sir, this is a closer view of that box we were just looking at.

Page 9523

 1     Does that help you tell me what -- what this depicts?

 2        A.   Well, you cannot see precisely what is shown here.  I really

 3     can't tell what this is.  There are four rectangles.

 4        Q.   Our investigations show that these are pontoons that you have

 5     previously testified about.  And as ...

 6        A.   These are not pontoons.  Perhaps this is your error.  I remember

 7     now.  We had a set of heavy launcher bridge -- bridges.  I think each of

 8     them were 10 metres long, each of the vehicles.  So that's a total of

 9     40 metres.  That's how long this bridge was.  The truck that was

10     transporting these launchers was not functioning properly.  There had to

11     be some repairs made for the trucks to be -- for the engines to be turned

12     on so that they could be turned in the direction that was ordered.

13             I think these were Karazov [phoen] vehicles.  The biggest problem

14     with that, at least this is what the hydraulics craftsmen told us, was

15     that the oil was leaking in the vehicles, and we couldn't keep the oil in

16     there.  They had been standing there for too long.

17        Q.   So these vehicles were the property of your battalion?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  They were -- belonging to our battalion.

19             MS. HASAN:  May I offer this aerial image as the next exhibit.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

22     Exhibit number P1771.  Thank you.

23             MS. HASAN:  If we could revert back now to P1770.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will take a moment to upload it again with the

Page 9524

 1     markings of the witness.

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             MS. HASAN:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Sir, you testified about minefields that were on the left and

 5     right of the road.  Can you show us on this photograph, this aerial

 6     image, where the minefields were laid?

 7        A.   I think that that area cannot be seen on this photograph.

 8        Q.   Can you tell me relative to this area where the minefields were

 9     laid?

10        A.   As I explained yesterday, this is to the left and to the right of

11     the road that is indicated here.  On one side, on the left-hand side,

12     where the school is, and then above the school, there's a small road and

13     a slope, and then that went down towards the road again.  And then on

14     this side closer to us, the right side of the road, there was an

15     electricity transmission power line and it went to the guard-post

16     number 6, but it was on that side in the hill.  Guard-post number 6 was

17     between the road and the small river.  There's a small river here.

18        Q.   So, sir, the guard post number 6, if I understand you correctly,

19     is it below this road towards the bottom half of this image?

20        A.   Yes, approximately.  I cannot indicate it precisely.  You can't

21     really see the place in this photograph, But it is below the road.  It's

22     between the road and the small river.  You can't see the river on the

23     photograph but there is it a small river there.

24        Q.   Was your battalion defending this entire area that -- from the

25     enemy?

Page 9525

 1        A.   There was a system of guard posts and minefields that we had.

 2     This was done before we had guard duty up to the minefield and then we

 3     also had guard duties at pre-arranged, appointed guard posts.  This is

 4     something that I didn't do.  This was already there before.

 5        Q.   And these guard posts and minefields, were they there for the

 6     purpose of protecting this compound facility of your battalion?

 7        A.   Yes.  That was the goal of the guard posts and the security.

 8        Q.   Now, sir we -- I showed you a photograph yesterday and we briefly

 9     looked at it today which depicts the school as well as the shed.  And I

10     mentioned yesterday that there was a witness who was held in that shed in

11     the morning to the afternoon of July 13th, and this would be reference --

12     would be referenced -- the reference for that is Exhibit P441, the

13     transcript page number is 3253, line 15.

14             This shed that we looked at is in the centre of that light blue

15     circle on this aerial image which seems to be located in the heart of

16     your facilities and the area you were protecting.

17             I'd like to ask you whether you knew that, in that shed or shack,

18     right by that school, close to your offices, close to your dining hall,

19     close to your property, and within your protected area, whether you were

20     aware that there was one -- and actually more people held within that

21     shed?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan, I think your reference can't be

23     correct.  Page -- you were referring to page 3253.  Yesterday's

24     transcript didn't have this page number.  Must be something with 9.000.

25             MS. HASAN:  I was actually referring to Exhibit P441, which is

Page 9526

 1     the -- which is where the evidence of this witness is contained.  And

 2     it's from the Krstic trial.  And so this is a reference -- the reference

 3     I gave is from that trial, which is now -- that transcript is now an

 4     exhibit in our case.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you give us a reference to the

 6     cross-examination of Mr. Tolimir yesterday?

 7             MS. HASAN:  The question about the shed and the person held in

 8     that shed actually was a question I put to the witness at the beginning

 9     of my re-examination.  And the basis is to -- to ask the witness about

10     the coordination between the MUP and his battalion, which was -- there

11     was several questions asked about that during the cross-examination.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14             I would like to greet everybody who is present and I would like

15     these proceedings to end in accordance with God's will and not my will.

16             I think that this subject that is currently discussed here, it

17     wasn't simply part of cross-examination.  There are no references to my

18     cross-examination and no basis for this re-examination now.

19             I would like the Prosecutor to always mention the reference from

20     my cross-examination.  Thank you.

21             This witness never mentioned this house yesterday.

22             Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan, as I indicated yesterday at the end of

24     our hearing, we would really appreciate to give -- to get a reference to

25     the specific part of the cross-examination.  If I remember correctly, the

Page 9527

 1     cooperation between the unit of the witness and the MUP was part of the

 2     examination-in-chief and the questioning by the Chamber.

 3             You may check with Mr. McCloskey and your Case Manager, where you

 4     will find the reference but we need it, and the -- this must be the rule.

 5             MS. HASAN:  There -- General Tolimir, at page 9504, line 10,

 6     asked the witness whether he made any kind of decision or conclusion

 7     regarding the cooperation of his unit with the MUP forces.  And then

 8     subsequently, at line 15, asked whether the person who wrote the

 9     14th July 1995 report for their activities that day, whether that person

10     stated anything about their cooperation with the MUP.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  My problem is that in my e-court system I still

12     have the pages from that day and this was not changed to the ... oh,

13     thank you very much.

14             Page 71, line 1.  I'll check that.

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  During cross-examination yesterday, Mr. Tolimir

17     put the following question to the witness -- yesterday's transcript,

18     page 70, line 22:

19             "My question is:  In paragraph 8, 'Conclusions, Forecasts and

20     Decisions,' did you make any kind of decision or conclusion regarding the

21     cooperation of your unit with the MUP forces?"

22             "A.  I didn't bring -- make any conclusions or issue any orders

23     in relation to cooperation with the MUP."

24             The next question of Mr. Tolimir:

25             "The person you wrote the report for, your activities that day,

Page 9528

 1     did they state anything about your cooperation with the MUP?

 2             Answer of the witness:

 3             "There was nothing else written about cooperation with the MUP

 4     other than what is written here."

 5             I think now we have a reference, Mr. Tolimir.

 6             If you are dealing with that, please carry on, Ms. Hasan.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MS. HASAN:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone not on.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             The references that you mention speak about the contents of the

13     document.  It's 65 ter 0284.  The witness said that he didn't do anything

14     about it.  He gave a negative answer to both my questions.  He never

15     mentioned the minefield, the prisoners, the people being kept there or

16     anything like that.

17             Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, it is the right of the Prosecution

19     during re-examination to challenge this statement of the witness, that he

20     doesn't know anything about that, and Ms. Hasan is dealing with that now.

21             Go ahead, please.

22             MS. HASAN:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Mr. Simanic, I'll repeat my question, which is:  Were you aware,

24     did you learn anything about a person and other persons who were held in

25     this shed on the 13th of July, which is located in the middle of your

Page 9529

 1     facilities?

 2        A.   First of all, I have to correct you.  This shed was not in the

 3     middle of our facilities.  I said that we never entered the school.  We

 4     did not know who was in the school, when, how, or what was the system of

 5     exchange of the people therein.  We had nothing to do with the school or

 6     the access to the school.  That's how I found the situation when I came

 7     there.  There was only one police check-point at the intersection in

 8     Konjevic Polje, and they were guarding the lower part of the minefield.

 9     I couldn't have known anything about what was going on there because, as

10     I have already stated yesterday, on the 13th, when two of my soldiers

11     were wounded, I wasn't there.  I returned only later.  I was most

12     probably in Vlasenica at the construction sites.  I returned later.  I

13     don't know exactly when.

14        Q.   But, sir, you knew who was there.  You told us yesterday at

15     page 9515, line 19, 18, you said:

16             "It's the first time I hear that, because we were not using these

17     premises at all.  The police were there, those who came and who had

18     shifts there and at the check-points.  We were not using these premises

19     at all."

20             So you were aware that the police was there.

21        A.   Look, I didn't know.  I assumed it because of their uniforms and

22     other things.  And that's why I said that.  I did not cooperate with

23     them.  I did not have any contact with them.  So I couldn't have known

24     what they were doing, when they were doing it, how they were doing it,

25     and what was their system of shift exchange.

Page 9530

 1             It was the police.  They had their own organs, their own

 2     commands, and they did not belong to the army.  Indeed, I have already

 3     stated that the police and the army did not have good relations because

 4     the police was better supported and had better logistics.

 5        Q.   I'd like to show you a record of an intercepted conversation.

 6             MS. HASAN:  This intercept is under seal.  So if it may not be

 7     broadcast.  Could we have Exhibit P2921A.  Apologies, that's a

 8     65 ter number.  The P number would be 1538A.

 9        Q.   Sir, this is an intercepted conversation from 7.40 in the morning

10     of the 12th of July, 1995.  It's a conversation between an unidentified

11     person and someone identified as "O."  And it reads, the unidentified

12     person says:

13             "Obrenovic, O, we don't have any communication there recorded.

14             The unidentified person asks:  "Where is your commander?"

15             O responds:  "As far as I know, he's here.

16             He's not -- the unidentified person replies:

17             "He's not, he isn't answering.  Listen, please tell him that I

18     called.  That Mane, Laco's deputy, will call him, that the police in

19     Konjevic Polje have been told to the same as the Engineering Battalion

20     are doing, and that he can give orders to them through the commander of

21     the Engineering Battalion."

22             "Okay."

23             "That's it.  Take care."

24             Sir, can you tell me what this is talking about?

25        A.   This is the first time that I hear this and that I see this.

Page 9531

 1        Q.   It refers here that the orders to the police located in

 2     Konjevic Polje can go through the commander of the Engineering Battalion.

 3     And according to your testimony, the commander of the Engineering

 4     Battalion was absent and you were stepping in his place.

 5             Did you deliver any orders to the police during this time-period?

 6        A.   Never.  Not a single order did I give.  But, here, if you look

 7     closely, you will see that it doesn't say the 5th Engineering Battalion.

 8     They talk about Obrenovic here.  I don't know which Obrenovic that would

 9     be.

10        Q.   Okay, sir.  I'm going to move on to another topic now.

11             General Tolimir, at page 9508, lines 3 to 10, asked you the

12     following question.  He showed you -- sorry, he showed you some documents

13     and then he asked:

14             "Witness, on the basis of the documents that we've seen of the

15     13th, 14th, and 15th, that was dispatched to the Main Staff, does any of

16     those documents contain any information about your unit, its activities

17     or anything else other than the data about the wounding of two soldiers?"

18             Now, I'd like to ask you about those two reports that were shown

19     to you.  You were shown one report from the 14th of July, going from the

20     Drina Corps Command to the Main Staff, and a subsequent report that was

21     sent from the Drina Corps Command to the Main Staff on the 15th of July.

22     And on page 9502, lines 3, in answer -- after having read portions of the

23     July 15th combat report of the Drina Corps, you answered that there was

24     no information that was passed -- that was contained in that report about

25     anything that was in your July 14th, 5th Battalion report.

Page 9532

 1             MS. HASAN:  If we could turn to P1604.

 2        Q.   And under item 1, "The Enemy," paragraph 3, halfway through that

 3     paragraph, it says:

 4             "The remains of dispersed Muslim formations from the former

 5     Srebrenica enclave are moving towards Kravica and Konjevic Polje with the

 6     objective of crossing into Mount Udrc sector and on towards Tuzla and

 7     Zivinice."

 8             Is this not information that was contained in your 14th July 1995

 9     report that there were Muslims who were coming from the Srebrenica

10     enclave and had infiltrated the Konjevic Polje-Pobudje area?

11        A.   Well, when somebody speaks about Konjevic Polje, it's a pretty

12     wide area.  That's why I didn't consider that the Engineering Battalion

13     was specifically mentioned.  That's why.

14        Q.   Sorry, I'm not -- my question is not about whether the

15     5th Engineering Battalion was mentioned.  I'm asking whether the

16     information contained in your report, at -- which reads, for instance, a

17     large enemy group infiltrated from the direction of Srebrenica into the

18     region of Pobudje-Konjevic Polje, is that not reflected in this statement

19     here in the Drina Corps Command report?  Are we not talking about the

20     same region, the Konjevic Polje region?

21        A.   I have to emphasise one thing.  We did not have an intelligence

22     organ.  So this could have been taken from somebody else's report.  From

23     a report made by some other infantry unit.  Infantry units have things

24     like that and it is quite possible that they have given this information

25     to the higher command.  Here it doesn't specifically say that they took

Page 9533

 1     it from our report.  That's why I said what I said.

 2        Q.   Would you say --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Because the witness is here in the process -- the Prosecutor is

 6     here in the process of trying to connect this witness with lots of other

 7     things, I think that maybe the Prosecutor should specifically mention and

 8     show the documents that were yesterday shown to the witness.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a good proposal but we have a problem.

10     We can't put both documents on the screen at the same time.

11             You should figure out how to deal with this problem to connect

12     the two documents, Ms. Hasan.

13             Please continue.

14             MS. HASAN:

15        Q.   Would you say, sir, that the information contained in this

16     Drina Corps Command report to the Main Staff is consistent with what is

17     contained in your July 14th, 1995, report?

18        A.   I can't discuss a document which I didn't draft and did not take

19     part in drafting it.  That's why I don't know what is he talking about

20     here in this document.  I don't know whether he took it from

21     Konjevic Polje.  I don't know whether it is actually the same

22     information.

23        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking you any question that's any different from

24     what General Tolimir asked you yesterday when he took you through this

25     document.  I'm simply asking you to respond to the same question, which

Page 9534

 1     is:  I'm showing you information in this document and asking you whether

 2     that information reflects what was in your 14th July report.

 3             MS. HASAN:  If we could turn to page 2 of this same report, 2 of

 4     the English version, and it's still page 1 of the B/C/S version.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask

 7     for this document to be shown to the witness.  And then we should see the

 8     exact words from this document which were then part of the report from

 9     the Drina Corps, because she is now telling him that some of his info has

10     entered the report of the Drina Corps.  But if we simply look at the

11     route taken by the Muslims, well, that's really nothing special.

12     Everybody knew where the Muslims were going.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan.

14             MS. HASAN:  I can give the reference to -- I quoted exactly from

15     the report itself, the 14th of July 5th Engineering Battalion report,

16     where it says -- I can read it out again.  Item 1, we looked at this

17     yesterday:

18             "A large enemy group was infiltrated in the region of

19     Pobudje Brdo and the region of Konjevic Polje."

20             And then on page 3 of the English version, under item 4, which

21     deals with the situation on the territory, it states:

22             "A large enemy group infiltrated from the direction of Srebrenica

23     into the region of Pobudje-Konjevic Polje."

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan, it's quite time-consuming the way you

25     are dealing with the documents again.  We will soon have completed

Page 9535

 1     one hour of our today's hearing, and I think we have all these documents

 2     as documents admitted into evidence.  Everybody, the parties, as the

 3     Chamber can draw conclusions from them.  Everybody can compare the text.

 4     We have the witness -- the answers of the witness.  You should try to

 5     complete your re-examination quite soon.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document that was

 9     sent from Drina Corps to the Main Staff only contains the location or the

10     direction of the movement of the Muslim forces.  It doesn't mention the

11     fact that they have stopped somewhere or that they have engaged in some

12     activities.  And also I didn't see any mention of Pobudje.  So I don't

13     think that that should be quoted as a reference.  Because, what, somebody

14     says the Tribunal so everything can be connected to the Tribunal?

15             Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Many people do that.  But, in fact, we shouldn't

17     continue in this way.  We have the documents, and it is up to the Chamber

18     at the end of the day to -- to give weight to that and to compare the

19     original text.

20             My question for the Prosecution is to look at the clock and to

21     see -- to hurry up with your re-examination and to conclude it as soon as

22     possible.

23             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, I simply wanted to go through these

24     documents that General Tolimir went through yesterday and he had skipped

25     over certain parts that referred to information that is -- that is --

Page 9536

 1     comes from or is identical to or consistent with the information that is

 2     contained in the 5th Engineering Battalion 14th July 1995 report.

 3             And if that exercise of comparison can be done, then I can

 4     conclude my re-examination at this stage.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This exercise can be done, if you want to have an

 6     interpretation by the witness.  The -- the text of the two documents are

 7     in evidence.  This is not the problem.  If you want to have a comment by

 8     the witness, then put a question to the witness.  In a way he can really

 9     answer it, but you -- I think we quite -- we can anticipate the position

10     of the witness.

11             MS. HASAN:  I agree, Your Honour, and I think that I can conclude

12     my re-examination.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

15             Sir, this concludes your testimony here in the courtroom.  Thank

16     you that you were able to come to The Hague again and to assist us.  You

17     are now free to return to your normal activities, and the Court Usher

18     will assist you leaving the courtroom.  Thank you very much again.

19             And first we turn into closed session.

20                           [Closed session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9537

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             Good afternoon, Mr. McCloskey.  Is the next witness ready?

 6             MR. MCCLOSKEY:  Yes, he is, and just one second before we get to

 7     that witness, if I could just request one thing of General Tolimir, since

 8     I don't really get a chance to see him and Mr. Gajic, that if there --

 9     and to the Court that if there are issues, significant issues related to

10     CLSS official translations, as there was in the last cross-examination

11     and examination, that those issues be brought up to the Court outside the

12     presence of the witness and well in advance so that we can all deal with

13     them.  Clearly the explanations that were given in front of the witness

14     may have affected the witness's evaluation of the document himself.  We

15     didn't object in that situation.  There was no harm done at all because

16     all of these issues related to this document and the words and the

17     translation had been fully discussed in the previous trial so it was

18     nothing new to him.

19             But I'm just asking the General and Mr. Gajic that if they do

20     have significant issues with the CLSS official translation, let us know

21     and we'll try to sort them out and allow the Court to see those as well.

22     But, really, I would prefer it not be done in front of the witness like

23     that.

24             The second point I don't want to forget is this next witness

25     is -- he is fully open and all, but he will need a caution.  I would

Page 9538

 1     request a caution.  He is the commander of the Zvornik Brigade Rocevic

 2     area battalion.  I believe it's the 2nd Battalion.  And also something I

 3     discussed briefly with Mr. Gajic is, you will hear from this witness and

 4     from my summary that his memory about exact dates was not good and that

 5     he knows that the first time he learned of prisoners at the Rocevic

 6     school was a few days after the fall of Srebrenica but he doesn't

 7     remember the exact date.  And I just wanted to offer that it's the

 8     Prosecution's position that that date that he first was made aware that

 9     there were prisoners at the Rocevic school is 14 July.  I don't know if

10     they want to agree with me on that, but there's voluminous evidence and

11     indications of that.  But that's so that it helps make more sense out of

12     the chronology when -- because he doesn't remember it himself.  We

13     believe it's the 14th of July that will be the -- fundamentally the

14     beginning of his chronology.

15             My summary of this witness is a little bit longer than I prefer

16     but my questioning will be shorter than I prefer -- or not that I prefer

17     but that I -- shorter than what is needed and I think we should get

18     everything done relatively quickly so that we can get on to Mr. Brunborg,

19     hopefully start him today, if we're lucky.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are very optimistic.  And, of course, this is

21     affected also by the length of the summary.  I hope it is really a

22     summary.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, when you look at the length and

24     the detail and the cross-examination of these witnesses, these are very

25     summary in nature, though I try to give you the most specific facts as I

Page 9539

 1     can so that you and anybody that is looking at this testimony will be

 2     able to make as much sense as they can out of the cross-examination.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             The witness should be brought in, please.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome to the courtroom

 8     and the Tribunal.

 9             Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is

10     shown to you now.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, and thank you.

12             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

13     and nothing but the truth.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  On the request of the Prosecution, I would like

17     to give you a caution.  You know, in our Rules of Procedure and Evidence,

18     there we have Rule 90(E) which I would like to read out for you.  I

19     quote:

20             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

21     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

22     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

23     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

24     offence other than false testimony."

25             Did you understand that, sir?

Page 9540

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             Mr. McCloskey has questions for you.

 4             Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           WITNESS:  SRECKO ACIMOVIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 9        Q.   And first can you state your name for the record slowly so that

10     we can get it down.

11        A.   Srecko Acimovic.

12        Q.   All right.  And did you testify in this courtroom in the case of

13     the Prosecutor versus Popovic et al?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   All right.  This, as I'm sure you recall me telling you, will be

16     a little different.  We will try to make this a little shorter for you

17     and us, so I'll ask you a couple of questions.

18             Have you had a chance to listen to your Popovic testimony in the

19     last couple of days?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And did you tell me that there was one addition or clarification

22     that you wanted to make the Court aware of today?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So aside from this addition or clarification that we'll get to in

25     a minute, if you were asked the same questions today as you were in the

Page 9541

 1     Popovic case, would your answers basically be the same?

 2        A.   Essentially, yes.

 3        Q.   All right.  And ...

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   In that event --

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I see the General's hand.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             I apologise, it's not clear to me if the answers would be the

11     same, then does the addition include these topics or does the addition

12     contain some other topics?

13             Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's the same topic as always and I think it's an

16     addition and clarification as he stated.  And he will soon tell us that,

17     and that will be very clear.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead, please.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  So given that basic record, I would

20     like now to offer, and all I have is 65 ter numbers this time,

21     Mr. President, the transcript of his testimony in Popovic which is 0663,

22     and 0664.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Both documents will be received, the first one

24     under seal.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And --

Page 9542

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, a moment.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 06663 shall be

 3     assigned Exhibit P1772, admitted under seal.

 4             And 65 ter document 6664 shall be assigned exhibit number P1773.

 5             Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And then associated exhibits admitted through

 8     this witness would be a "Drinski" magazine article, 06077, and a

 9     Zvornik Brigade transportation record, 00283.  I'd offer those and I'll

10     wait for the number.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you sure that the last number is correct in

12     your list?  This is 65 ter 03440.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Our number is 00283 but we'll, of course -- I'm

14     getting confirmation of that.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There's an older version of the sheet,

17     Mr. President.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  And I have heard that this is already an

19     exhibit.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter document 00283 was assigned exhibit number

21     P1596 as part of the 92 bis Prosecution witnesses' associated documents

22     pursuant to the Trial Chamber's public oral decision dated

23     31st January 2011.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  The "Drinski" magazine article will

25     be received as an exhibit.

Page 9543

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And the other exhibit on that list is already in

 2     evidence and we don't wish any others to come in, so that should do it

 3     for the exhibits.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  We would like to receive the number

 5     of 65 ter 06077.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  The mentioned document shall be assigned

 7     Exhibit P1774.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, Mr. Acimovic, I have a summary of a -- of

10     your testimony.  It won't contain everything in it, but I think if I can

11     read that summary first, then you can offer your addition and the summary

12     may help make your addition put it in context, all right?

13             Srecko Acimovic was born in the village of Rocevic in the

14     Zvornik municipality in May 1967.  In July of 1995, Mr. Acimovic was the

15     commander of the 2nd Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade and held the rank

16     of reserve lieutenant.

17             Mr. Acimovic did not recall the exact date but testified that in

18     the days following the fall of Srebrenica, he learned from locals from

19     the village of Rocevic that Muslim prisoners were being killed in front

20     of the elementary school in Rocevic and that a local Serb woman had been

21     injured during the killings.

22             Sometime between 8.00 and 9.00 p.m. that day, Mr. Acimovic,

23     together with the local priest and the president of the local commune

24     went to the Rocevic school and noticed soldiers there who appeared to be

25     under the influence of alcohol.  Mr. Acimovic testified he did not see

Page 9544

 1     the prisoners but heard people shouting from the school gym, pleading for

 2     water and permission to use the bathroom.  Acimovic asked the soldiers

 3     where the prisoners had come from and who had brought them to the school,

 4     but the soldiers did not answer his questions and denied him permission

 5     to talk to their commanding officer.

 6             After about half an hour, Mr. Acimovic left the school and went

 7     towards the battalion command in the village of Malesici.  On his way, he

 8     stopped at Kozluk and called the duty operations officer of the

 9     Zvornik Brigade located in the Standard factory near Zvornik.  He asked

10     about the prisoners that were being held in the Rocevic school.  The duty

11     officer told Mr. Acimovic that he had no knowledge of the situation, and

12     Acimovic asked to be connected to the Zvornik Brigade commander, or to

13     Dragan Obrenovic, the Chief of Staff of the Zvornik Brigade.  The duty

14     officer told Mr. Acimovic that neither of them was present at the time.

15             Vujadin Popovic, the assistant commander for intelligence and

16     security of the Drina Corps, arrived at the Zvornik Brigade headquarters

17     while Acimovic was still on the telephone with the duty officer and was

18     put on the phone.  Mr. Acimovic spoke to Popovic and explained that

19     soldiers were killing prisoners in front of the school located in the

20     centre of Rocevic.  Popovic told Acimovic that the prisoners would be

21     exchanged the following morning.

22             After his conversation with Popovic, Acimovic returned to Rocevic

23     to convey the information he had just learned about the exchange of the

24     prisoners to the local priest and the president of the local commune.

25     Acimovic spoke to the president of the local commune and together with

Page 9545

 1     him went back to the school.  At the school, Acimovic testified that he

 2     tried to persuade the soldiers to provide water to the prisoners and to

 3     give them access to a toilet.  Acimovic testified that the soldiers

 4     eventually agreed to this.

 5             After this second visit to the school, Mr. Acimovic left and

 6     returned to his battalion command where he informed Vujo Lazarevic, the

 7     assistant battalion commander for morale, legal and religious affairs,

 8     and Mitar Lazarevic, the desk officer for general affairs at the

 9     battalion command, about the situation in Rocevic.

10             Between 1.00 and 2.00 a.m. the next day, while still at the

11     battalion command, Mr. Acimovic received a coded telegram, ordering the

12     detachment of a platoon of soldiers to be used for the execution of the

13     prisoners at the Rocevic school.  Mr. Acimovic testified that he decided

14     not to detach any of their personnel for that purpose and sent a response

15     to that effect.  Mr. Acimovic testified that he could not recollect who

16     the signatory of the order was, but that his response was sent to either

17     the duty officer or the assistant for security and intelligence of the

18     Zvornik Brigade.

19             Forty-five minutes to an hour later, Mr. Acimovic received

20     another telegram that once again ordered the detachment of personnel to

21     carry out the execution of the prisoners and stated that Acimovic was to

22     inform his company commanders and the battalion command of the order.

23     Mr. Acimovic consulted with his assistants, Vujo Lazarevic and

24     Mitar Lazarevic -- excuse me, he consulted with his assistants.

25     Mr. Acimovic testified that they reaffirmed their agreement not to obey

Page 9546

 1     the order and again sent a response setting out their refusal to dispatch

 2     personnel to carry out the execution of the prisoners.

 3             Thereafter, Mr. Acimovic contacted the company commanders to

 4     determine whether they had received the telegram and to inform them of

 5     their response to the order.  Mr. Acimovic received confirmation that

 6     Mr. Stjepanovic, commander of the 1st Infantry Company, and two other

 7     company commanders had received, possibly through their deputies, the

 8     subject telegram.

 9             Ten minutes after receiving the second telegram, at approximately

10     2.30 a.m., Drago Nikolic, who Mr. Acimovic described as the assistant

11     commander for intelligence and security of the Zvornik Brigade, contacted

12     Mr. Acimovic by phone at the battalion command.  Nikolic told Acimovic

13     that the order had come from above and had to be followed.  Acimovic

14     testified that he explained to Nikolic that they did not have enough

15     people to allocate to this task and that they would not be carrying out

16     the order.  As the conversation drew to a close, Nikolic gave Acimovic

17     until 7.00 a.m. to carry out the order.

18             At around 7.00 or 8.00 a.m. that day, Nikolic called Acimovic to

19     check whether he had complied with the order.  Acimovic testified that he

20     once again told Nikolic that they would not follow the order.  In

21     response, Nikolic told Acimovic that if he did not gather the men as

22     ordered, that he - meaning Acimovic - would personally have to engage in

23     the task with his people.  Nikolic told Acimovic to meet him in Rocevic

24     at 9.00 or 10.00 a.m.

25             After speaking to Drago Nikolic, Acimovic called the brigade duty

Page 9547

 1     officer and told him of the prisoners at the school and asked for the

 2     Chief of Staff of the brigade to call him back.  Shortly after that,

 3     Acimovic drove to the school in Rocevic to meet Nikolic.  However,

 4     Nikolic wasn't there.  While at the school, Acimovic saw many more

 5     unknown people and soldiers in the school-yard and at least a dozen

 6     corpses lying on the grass in front of the school bathroom.

 7             Mr. Acimovic then encountered Vujadin Popovic at the school, whom

 8     he had spoken to over the telephone the day before.  Popovic yelled at

 9     Acimovic for not having brought men with him pursuant to the order.

10     After threatening and pressuring Acimovic to comply, Popovic instructed

11     Acimovic to see whether there was anybody in the school-yard who was

12     willing to take part in the executions.  Acimovic testified he refused to

13     do so.  Acimovic then left Popovic and did not follow his order.

14     Acimovic testified that he returned a short time later and suggested to

15     Popovic that the prisoners should be returned to where they'd come from

16     or evacuated to the barracks in Kozluk.  Popovic then called the brigade

17     duty officer and requested that they urgently send vehicles and trucks to

18     Rocevic.

19             Approximately 30 to 40 minutes later, one truck arrived in the

20     school-yard.  Popovic told Acimovic he needed more trucks, but Acimovic

21     testified he refused to help Popovic with this task.  While present at

22     the school with Popovic, Acimovic heard Popovic tell one of the soldiers

23     that all the prisoners were to be killed somewhere nearby the school.

24             Sometime between 11.30 and 12.15, Acimovic returned to the

25     2nd Battalion headquarters.  Dragan Jovic, Veljko Ivanovic and

Page 9548

 1     Djordje Nikolic, all members of the 2nd Infantry Battalion, stayed behind

 2     at the Rocevic school.

 3             When he arrived at the 2nd Battalion headquarters, Acimovic

 4     informed Mitar Lazarevic and Vujo Lazarevic about what had happened and

 5     attempted to establish contact with Dragan Obrenovic.  He did not manage

 6     to reach him but briefed the Zvornik Brigade duty officer on what was

 7     happening at the Rocevic school.  At some later stage, Obrenovic told

 8     Acimovic that he was in the field at the time and was not aware of the

 9     events happening at Rocevic.

10        Q.   All right, Mr. Acimovic, in that context of the summary, can you

11     tell us what it is you wanted to add and why it is you wanted to add it

12     to this testimony?

13        A.   Well, I would say just one detail which has to do with my

14     departure from the school-yard.

15             During my first testimony here before the ICTY, I said that I

16     passed by these three drivers and did not stay there or talk to them.

17     However, after the testimony of these same witnesses here at ICTY,

18     specifically I mean one of these drivers, who said that as I was leaving

19     the school in Rocevic, I told them that I couldn't watch that with my own

20     eyes and that they had to drive the prisoners, that reminded me what I

21     actually did say on this occasion and I feel that it is my duty to tell

22     that to the Trial Chamber.

23             As I was going by these drivers, I said, Let me just warn you

24     that our unit has nothing to do with this.  I shall not take part in all

25     this, nor can I watch this with my own eyes.  I'm leaving and I'm going

Page 9549

 1     to Malesici.

 2             And one of these drivers, who testified here, said, Sreco, what

 3     am I going to do?  I have to do it because I was sent from the brigade.

 4     Once again, I drew their attention to this.  I said, Just let it be clear

 5     that I warned you and I'm going to leave now.  So I left for Malesici.

 6             This is the detail which I felt the need to clarify.  Thank you.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go into private session just for a

 8     second out of an abundance of caution.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, we turn into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I've just one question.  Today's

25     transcript during your reading of the summary, page 29, lines 8, 9, and

Page 9550

 1     10, I'm not sure if you were recorded correctly.  I see here:

 2     "Mr. Acimovic consulted with his assistants, Vujo Lazarevic and

 3     Mitar Lazarevic."  And then you said, which is not recorded, "Excuse me."

 4     I don't know what -- if it refers to this sentence, because then you

 5     continued:  "He consulted with his assistants."

 6             Is that correctly recorded or was there something different, what

 7     you read?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think that's correct and I -- the summary was

 9     meant to mean that his assistants were the two Lazarevics.  And I -- just

10     let me check with the witness.

11        Q.   Is that correct, are those -- the Lazarevics your assistants?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   Let me just ask a couple of questions to clarify some things.

16             You've mentioned that you heard that a local Serb woman was

17     injured outside this school that day.  Can you tell us what is your

18     understanding -- you know, what kind of injury she suffered, from who or

19     from what source?

20        A.   That is precisely what the president of the local commune and the

21     priest informed me about.  It was the president of the local commune of

22     Rocevic.  And it was close to my family house.

23             They told me that the local woman sustained an entry and exit

24     wound and that she was hit by a bullet from an infantry weapon, that this

25     was done by the soldiers who had brought the prisoners and who, while

Page 9551

 1     killing the prisoners, shot in the direction of the place where the local

 2     woman was, and as a result, she sustained the entry and exit wounds.

 3        Q.   Did you ever confirm that that actually happened as it was

 4     described to you, to that woman?

 5        A.   No, I didn't check that, but it's definitely true.

 6        Q.   Okay.  You also testified at length about receiving what you've

 7     described as a telegram, and I believe "telegram" is the same in Serbian

 8     as it is in English, a telegram, a coded telegram ordering you to form an

 9     execution squad to kill the prisoners.

10             Telegrams can be different in different places.  So could you

11     explain to us what a telegram is in the context that you meant, how it

12     was transmitted, how it was received and all that, so we can get an idea

13     of what you mean when you say your battalion received a telegram.

14        A.   On that occasion, and at that specific time, I was sleeping.  My

15     assistants, whom we already mentioned, woke me up.  One of them woke me

16     up and told me to get down to the battalion command and to be informed as

17     we had received a telegram, that they should tell me what this was all

18     about.

19             When I came down, they told me that the telegram was encrypted

20     and that they had decoded it.  I then read it and it ordered the command

21     of the 2nd Infantry Battalion, that is to say, myself, to provide one

22     platoon of soldiers for the execution of prisoners.

23        Q.   The Trial Chamber has heard about various means of communications

24     available; the PTT telephone, the induction telephone, the RUP radios,

25     the teletype communications.

Page 9552

 1             What kind of communication did the telegram come over?

 2        A.   Over an induction telephone.

 3        Q.   So when the -- your soldier or communications person or whoever

 4     picks up the phone, what kind of information does he get that is this

 5     telegram?  Does he get a series of numbers, does he get -- words, does he

 6     get Morse code?  What is he actually hearing that is the telegram?

 7        A.   It all depends on the kind of telegram.  If the telegram is

 8     encrypted, then the communications officer notes down the codes.  When he

 9     notes down the entire contents of the telegram that means all the codes

10     which have been forwarded, he then calls the duty officer at the

11     battalion command and in the same manner, over the phone, he forwards the

12     contents of the telegram which he also notes into the notebook which

13     contains the telegrams.

14        Q.   I'm almost done.  I see it's time to break.  Let me just almost

15     finish this topic.

16             So when this officer answering the phone gets the verbal code and

17     writes down those verbal codes, what are those verbal codes usually?  You

18     know, what kind of numbers or letters are they or -- just for our

19     knowledge.

20        A.   Probably letters, numbers, alternately some expressions and so

21     on.

22        Q.   Okay.  And is it fair to conclude that a person with a code book

23     that can decipher those coded numbers or letters takes the code book and

24     can decode the telegram to figure out what it actually says in Serbian;

25     is that right?

Page 9553

 1        A.   In any case, a telegram cannot be decoded without a table which

 2     every battalion command had for certain specific times of day, and it was

 3     usually something that the battalion command had.

 4             So when it was that sort of telegram you would take the table for

 5     decoding a telegram and then, in accordance with the table, the very same

 6     telegram would be decoded.

 7        Q.   Did you have someone special in your battalion that did that or

 8     could anybody do it?

 9        A.   Well, every signalman is trained to decode various kinds of

10     telegrams, and I believe that every member of the battalion command

11     should have known how to use the table, though there is suspicion that

12     these people were not always able to do that or capable of doing it,

13     because these were privates who were deployed to command duties within

14     the battalion command.  Possibly they may have needed help or not.  It

15     all depended on the particular person and the particular moment in time.

16        Q.   Last question.  Do you recall who deciphered the telegrams that

17     night that we're speaking about?

18        A.   I think that these were the persons we have already mentioned,

19     namely, Vujo Lazarevic and Mitar Lazarevic.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's break time.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We must have our first

23     break now, and we will resume 20 minutes past 4.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

Page 9554

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Mr. Acimovic, go to that -- sort of that second day that you've

 4     spoke of briefly, where you had just said a few things to your drivers

 5     that you clarified for us and then you left the school.  Was it that day

 6     that -- that the prisoners at the Rocevic school were eventually

 7     transported away, or did they stay at the school longer?

 8        A.   I think that that day they were transported, yes.

 9        Q.   All right.  And where -- what -- where were they transported, if

10     you -- if you learned?

11        A.   As you learned in the course of these proceedings, it was a

12     location in Kozluk where they were executed.

13        Q.   All right.  And now let me go back to that first day, where you

14     have said that this -- you first became aware of the prisoners at the

15     school about 8.00 or 9.00 p.m.  Then you eventually said that you've gone

16     to Kozluk and that's where you called the brigade, a duty officer, and

17     you said they put Popovic on the phone.

18             Do you remember roughly what time of day it was that they put

19     Popovic on the phone?  Was it still light out?  Was it dark?  Just your

20     best recollection of, you know, when that was.

21        A.   It was dark, definitely, but the only thing is I wasn't looking

22     for Popovic.  I asked -- when I was asking to speak with the commander or

23     the Chief of Staff, when they told me that they weren't there, what I

24     said was, Were any other members of the command, of the Zvornik Brigade,

25     available.  And I was told that none of them were present, and that was

Page 9555

 1     when I asked, Is anyone there that I could speak about this matter with?

 2     And then the duty operations officer said that Vujadin Popovic was there

 3     from the Drina Corps.  The security chief.

 4        Q.   Okay.  So it was -- it was -- was it dark when they put Popovic

 5     on the line?

 6        A.   I think that it was.

 7        Q.   And --

 8        A.   But I'm not 100 per cent sure.  I cannot assert that

 9     100 per cent.  I cannot say that it was dark.  It was summer, so it gets

10     dark a bit later.  So it was possible, but I'm not 100 per cent sure.

11        Q.   Can you tell us about what time it gets dark in Bosnia in -- you

12     know, in July?

13        A.   From 9.00 to 9.30, that would be the time.  2100 hours.

14        Q.   Okay.  And so if you were correct when you say you were first

15     alerted to the prisoners in the school at 8.00 or 9.00 p.m., roughly how

16     much later did you make your way to Kozluk to -- and end up talking to

17     Popovic?

18        A.   Just one moment, please.

19             When I found out about the situation at Rocevic, I spent maybe

20     some 15 minutes there and then I needed another 15 minutes to get to

21     Kozluk, so this is 30 minutes.  And then the conversation itself, perhaps

22     lasted for about 15 minutes, and that would be my approximation.

23        Q.   All right.  So that -- I'll just call it the first evening

24     when -- when Popovic told you that the Muslim prisoners at the Rocevic

25     school would be exchanged the next day, had you heard any reports of

Page 9556

 1     Muslim prisoners being killed in the 4th Battalion area around Orahovac

 2     or anywhere else, most of the day that day, beginning in the afternoon?

 3        A.   I didn't have any information at all about any prisoners in the

 4     Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility.  And up until that time, I didn't

 5     know about it in Rocevic either, until I saw it with my own eyes.  Any

 6     kind of information or report from the brigade or any other kind of

 7     information was really not available to me.  I did not have any access to

 8     any kind of information about this.

 9        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I would end at this point.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey.

12             Mr. Tolimir, now you may commence your cross-examination.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Once

14     again, I would wish for peace in this house and for these proceedings and

15     my cross-examination of this witness may end according to God's will and

16     not according to mine.  I would like to welcome the witness, wish him a

17     pleasant stay here and I would also like to him to have a safe return

18     home.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir, for coming.  I would

21     like you to respond to certain questions according to your best

22     recollection.  If you find that I am stating something erroneously,

23     please feel free to correct me or to mention if something does not

24     comport with the way you remember it.

25             I have one more thing to ask you.  When I put my question to you

Page 9557

 1     I'm going to say "thank you" after I complete putting my question to you.

 2     You can monitor the screen in front of you.  When the letters stop

 3     moving, then you can begin answering, because that will give the

 4     interpreters enough time to translate everything that I'm saying and that

 5     you are saying, because everything has to be entered correctly into the

 6     transcript.  And I'm thanking you in advance for your assistance.

 7        A.   Thank you.

 8        Q.   At the beginning of the transcript for today, on page 1, when we

 9     were dealing with the summary, Mr. McCloskey said -- he actually asked

10     you when you found out that Muslim civilians were being killed in

11     Rocevic.

12             My question is this -- this was on page 25, actually, when the

13     summary was read.  I am going to identify the passage.  He said, Are you

14     aware that Muslim civilians were being killed?

15             So my question is:  He said the Muslim population, I apologise, I

16     have to be precise.  He asked about the Muslim population, when you found

17     out that the Muslim population was being killed in Rocevic.

18             So my question is:  Sir, did you find out that the Muslim

19     population in Rocevic was being killed or were they Muslim prisoners that

20     were being killed?  Thank you.

21        A.   Muslim prisoners.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And did you see those Muslim prisoners in order to be

23     able to tell for yourself whether these people were citizens or

24     prisoners?

25        A.   I wasn't close to the location.  When I came to the school, this

Page 9558

 1     is some 40 metres away from there, so I wasn't able to definitely see

 2     whether those people had any kind of military insignia or whether they

 3     were just wearing civilian clothing.  It was summer.  So I really

 4     couldn't tell you for sure.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Well, the question was long and I would like to

 6     repeat it in a different format.  And that is:  Did you see any Muslim

 7     prisoners in Rocevic at all?  Thank you.

 8        A.   I didn't see any of them, but I did hear them.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  When Mr. McCloskey was reading the summary, amongst

10     other things, it said there that you said to Popovic that prisoners were

11     being killed in Rocevic.  Did you hear that when the summary was being

12     read out by the Prosecutor?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell me whether you told Popovic that

15     prisoners in Rocevic were being killed when you spoke with him on the

16     telephone and did you ask him why those prisoners were there?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And what did you ask him?  Can you please tell us for the

19     transcript.

20        A.   Before I said anything else, I informed him about the situation

21     in Rocevic.  He told me that those same prisoners were going to be

22     exchanged the following day and that I shouldn't be too dramatic about

23     this whole matter because that wasn't my job.  I also drew his attention,

24     and I think I talked to him with a raised voice.  I asked him, Are you

25     normal?  Something to the effect that they were guarding those people,

Page 9559

 1     they were killing them in the school-yard, that they were wounding the

 2     nearby civilians and things like that.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You told him that prisoners were getting killed in

 4     the school-yard and you told him that one woman was killed -- was

 5     wounded.  Exactly what did you tell him?

 6        A.   I told him both of those things.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now look at 02064 in

 9     e-court, please.  This is a transcript of the conversation of the

10     investigators with this witness in Banja Luka in 2001 and 2002, so that

11     we could help the witness to follow what we're going to be dealing with.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is this a 65 ter number?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  02064,

14     please.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  My question was simply if that is a 65 ter number

16     and not a P or D number.  But I think now we can take it that's it a

17     65 ter number.

18             And one remark for the record, you were referring first to page 1

19     of today's transcript.  This is, of course, an error.  And then you were

20     referring to page 25, but the summary read into the transcript starts

21     with page 26, line 24.  There should be another reference.  I couldn't

22     find that specific portion when you were referring to Muslim population

23     instead of prisoners.

24             But that was just a remark for the record.  You should continue

25     and question the witness.

Page 9560

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 25, the witness answers and

 2     he provides his particulars, his first and last name, his place and date

 3     of birth, and then after that, he is asked by Mr. McCloskey if he had

 4     information --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- about the Muslim population

 7     being killed.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, there is no need -- thank you very

 9     much, but there's no need to discuss it.  I just wanted to have it on the

10     record.  The summary started on page 26 and not page 25.  At a later

11     stage some people would like to find out where it is, and that was just a

12     correction.

13             Please continue your questioning.

14             Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could it be clear, I never said "population," so

16     maybe that's an error, but I think it's an important thing to clarify.

17     I've always said "prisoners."

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I didn't find the word "population" myself, when

19     I was looking for that word which you put to the witness.  If you could

20     give us a reference, that would be fine; otherwise, continue, please.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President and I also

22     thank Mr. McCloskey.  This is how it was interpreted to me and this is

23     how I wrote it down.  Since I take notes, it is possible that I made a

24     mistake, and I thank Mr. McCloskey for correcting it for the record, that

25     he was speaking about prisoners.  Thank you.

Page 9561

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's fine.  Go ahead, please.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Could you please look at the transcript now.  We're looking at

 4     the page ... I can't see the page number on the screen.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll up just so

 6     that I can look at the page.  But I can see actually in the English

 7     version that it is page 1.

 8             Can we now look at page 8?  Thank you.  Page 8 in the Serbian and

 9     that is on lines 7, 8, and 9.  Thank you.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And now you can see line 6, where it says:

12             "Yes, is coordinating and according to the situation commands in

13     the event that the commander is away or in order to carry out orders

14     pursuant to orders in a specific time-period."

15             And then it goes on to line 9, if I understood you correctly, the

16     Chief of Staff coordinates the security organ and so on.  And you answer,

17     yes.  In order to be clear --

18        A.   I think that this is something wrong with the translation.

19     Something is not quite right and this is what I'm saying.

20        Q.   All right.  That's what I thought.  There was something wrong

21     with the order.  So the security organ who was -- who were they

22     subordinated to in your brigade?

23        A.   To the brigade commander.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Well, now let us look at the rule, what it says about

25     that.  And then I'm going to put questions to you about that.

Page 9562

 1             All right.  Now we're going to look at D148.

 2             You were explaining it here, and then the translation was wrong

 3     so now it's important for us to look at the actual rule.  We're looking

 4     at the rule on the screen right now.  This is the brigade rules about --

 5     for infantry, motorised, mountain, alpine, marine and light brigades.

 6     This is the rules by the Army of Republika Srpska.  Are you aware that

 7     these rules were being applied in your brigade?  Thank you.

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10        A.   I never had the opportunity to acquaint myself with this

11     particular rule.

12        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  We are now going to look at what the

13     brigade command does.

14             In the Serbian, this is page 64, and in the English it's page 37.

15             Can you please look at Article 115, which states, I will read:

16             "The brigade commander has the exclusive right to command all

17     brigade units and attached units.  He bears full responsibility for the

18     work of the brigade command and subordinate commands for the state of

19     morale, for security, and combat readiness, for training and for the

20     proper performance of tasks.  The commander takes decisions, assigns

21     tasks to units, monitors their execution and demands their strict

22     execution, regardless of difficulties that arise."

23             My question is:  These powers that are referred to in the rule,

24     is that something that your brigade commander enjoyed?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9563

 1        Q.   And then did he transfer these powers to his deputy or to the

 2     chief?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In view of what it says here, about the duties of the

 5     brigade commander, does that also apply to the battalion, in terms of the

 6     battalion composition?

 7        A.   Yes, it's similar.

 8        Q.   Is there anything different that would be different from what we

 9     have just read?

10        A.   There are similarities.  I think that's more or less that.

11        Q.   All right.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at what the

13     security organ does.  This is page 66 in the Serbian, and page 38 in the

14     English.

15        Q.   And let us compare with what you said.  I don't want to be

16     reading the ten pages of the report where you were explaining to the

17     investigators who does what.

18             All right.  Now we're going to look at Article 122, which refers

19     to the security organ, we're seeing it.  Thank you, e-court.

20             "The security organ is a specialised organ of the command which

21     organises and implements measures and procedures of counter-intelligence

22     support.  It also participates in recommending, organising and

23     implementing security and self-protection measures which concern the

24     command and other subjects of self-protection."

25             Second paragraph:

Page 9564

 1             "In terms of expertise, it directs the work of the intelligence

 2     and security organs of subordinate units.  It organises and directs their

 3     work, provides assistance and controls their activities in completing

 4     counter-intelligence activities and duties."

 5             And so on and so forth.  Then it goes on to speak about the

 6     cooperation with the brigade forces.

 7             My question to you is:  Is the bearer of all measures and

 8     activities implemented by the security organ the brigade commander or is

 9     it somebody else?

10        A.   I didn't understand the question.

11        Q.   Does the security organ implement measures and organise things

12     for which the main responsibility is borne by the commander and other

13     subjects of self-protection?  Thank you.

14        A.   Yes, most probably.

15        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  Let us now look at what they do, because

16     we're going to come to that.  At one place you were asked what were the

17     powers of the security organ and you told the investigators that that

18     includes work with prisoners of war.  Do you remember saying that?

19        A.   I don't remember saying it, but if you say that I said it, then I

20     probably did say it.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm just going to read out some other regulations

22     and then we're going to discuss the practice that was in force in your

23     brigade.  I'm kindly asking you now to look at paragraph -- this is on

24     page 125 in the Serbian, 79 in the English, and this is logistics for

25     prisoners of war.

Page 9565

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which document are you referring to?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm speaking about the same

 3     document.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And this is paragraph 295 that we

 6     can see on our screen.  In the English, this is the last one on the page,

 7     and in the Serbian it is the one-but-last.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Item 295, I quote:

10             "Logistics support for prisoners of war includes the provision of

11     necessary supplies and health care.  Provisions of supplies to prisoners

12     in prisoner stations and other locations while they are under the

13     jurisdiction of the armed forces is organised by logistics and other

14     organs in units which have captured them.  The escort for prisoners of

15     war in camps is organised and implemented by the Territorial Defence

16     Staffs, in collaboration with socio-political communities."

17             Based on what I have just read, my question is:  Did you, in the

18     brigade or in the battalion, have any forces that could provide logistic

19     support for prisoners of war?

20        A.   No.  And if you permit me, I would like to say something else.

21             You are reading certain rules of the former JNA which refer to

22     the Territorial Defence.  I never had the chance to become familiar with

23     these rule-books.  You probably know, you have been informed about

24     specifically how I was appointed to my duties.  So, pursuant to that, I

25     would like to inform you one more time that even though I have already

Page 9566

 1     been asked about certain rules, if you wish, I could make things easier

 2     for you.  There's a possibility that I made a mistake somewhere.  It was

 3     something that I never studied.  What I said, I spoke on the basis of my

 4     recollection.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not accusing you of anything.  I'm merely trying

 6     to recall, for the purposes of the record, who had what obligation and

 7     duty, and I wanted you to tell us how things looked like in your unit

 8     based on your recollections.

 9             Now I'm going to ask you a question.  Did you have a security

10     organ in the battalion?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did he have anybody else working with him in that organ or any

13     other soldiers subordinated to him?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was he able, on his own, to escort, interrogate, and

16     feed any prisoners that could have been captured by the battalion?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Was the same situation also in the brigade command?  Did the

19     organ for security there had any subordinated soldiers or any ability to

20     take care or feed the prisoners?  Thank you.

21        A.   That's a different story.  I think that a unit such as a brigade

22     should have manpower available for that purpose.  I mean, soldiers.

23        Q.   Thank you.  So a brigade can have it but not an organ of the

24     brigade such as a security or some other organ of the brigade?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9567

 1        Q.   Does it mean that you're talking here about all the soldiers

 2     subordinated to the brigade commander, just like the organ for security

 3     is subordinated?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us move now to page 14, if I'm

 7     not mistaken -- no, page 10 of your statement, which is 65 ter 02064.  I

 8     would like to go back to that document.  Thank you.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Please take a look at page 10 and further on, where you talk

11     about the duty operative officer.  I would like to pose several questions

12     in relation to your previous answer.  And I'm definitely going to give

13     you a reference, in case that you're unable to remember what exactly you

14     said.

15             It is not my goal to tell you what my answers would have been.

16     Maybe I would have given the same answers.  My goal here is to establish

17     what was supposed to be done.  Thank you.

18             Was there a duty operative officer in your brigade?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Did your brigade commander command over his subordinate units

21     through his duty operative or directly?

22        A.   That would depend on the situation.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you explain this situation then?

24        A.   Well, probably the brigade commander, when he has no possibility

25     to directly communicate his orders, then he would do it through his duty

Page 9568

 1     operative.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Would such a situation occur when the brigade

 3     commander is absent?  For instance, he is in the field without any means

 4     of communication so he cannot communicate to a battalion commander or

 5     somebody else who is subordinated to him in the brigade.

 6        A.   It all depends on the situation in the field.  It all depends

 7     from case to case.  It means that there is a number of different options

 8     depending on the situation in the field and depending on the task at

 9     hand.

10        Q.   Thank you.  My question is as follows:  Is the duty operative in

11     the position to command the brigade if the commander and the Chief of

12     Staff are within the zone of responsibility of the brigade?

13        A.   As far as I know, something like that never happened.  It would

14     mostly be the Chief of Staff or the commander who would almost always be

15     accessible.  Now I cannot claim that something like that never happened

16     but I don't know of such a case.

17        Q.   Thank you.  My question, based on this answer, is as a follows:

18     Is the duty operative able, in any case, to command the brigade if both

19     the Chief of Staff and the brigade commander are inside the zone of

20     responsibility of the brigade?

21        A.   I think that there are some military rules which say that in the

22     absence of the brigade commander and the Chief of Staff, and in case that

23     no communication with them can be established, that in such a case if an

24     order should be issued, it would be the duty operative who would issue

25     such an order.  But I think that it never happened that the duty

Page 9569

 1     operative would issue some sort of a more serious order.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now go back to your battalion and make an

 3     analogy.  Was it possible in your battalion that any officer in the

 4     battalion could command the battalion without your approval?

 5        A.   It would all depend on the situation in the field, as I've

 6     already stated.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  So, when leaving the zone of responsibility of the

 8     battalion, does that mean that the battalion commander has the duty to

 9     tell exactly who is going to replace him?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Is the same true for the brigade and the corps and other units,

12     that there should always be a person designated by the commander who is

13     going to replace the commander if he is absent?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Is the reason for that the fact that some less experienced

16     officer, like staff-sergeant, for instance, could be filling the place of

17     the duty operative and that is why there is a need for the commander to

18     designate the person who is going to replace him?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   My question is as follows:  Does that mean that the duty

21     operative, in your unit and in all other units, would only transmit the

22     orders issued by commanders and Chiefs of Staffs to their subordinated

23     units?

24        A.   I think that is how it was.  That is my opinion.  Now whether

25     that's correct, I don't know.

Page 9570

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, to carry on the analogy, does that mean that the

 2     duty operative can be held responsible for the situation in the brigade

 3     regardless of whether the commander and the Chief of Staff are present or

 4     not?

 5        A.   This question demands a slightly deeper analysis.  It all depends

 6     on the situation.  Does this duty operative have already some task

 7     assigned to him or not?  I think that this is a rather complex question,

 8     more complex than I can give you my answer.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to clarify it now.  Was the duty

10     operative, under any circumstances, in a position to command over your

11     battalion and to be held responsible for the activities of your

12     battalion?

13        A.   There were situations when the duty operative would issue certain

14     orders.  I cannot claim now that he would issue those orders in his own

15     name or whether he merely transmitted those orders.  It all depends on

16     the situation, you know.  I can't really give you a detailed answer and a

17     detailed analysis of these issues.

18        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  Now let us take a look at your battalion.

19     Was the duty operative in your battalion in a position to command over

20     the battalion or a smaller unit in your absence?

21        A.   Once again, I wish to emphasise that most probably he would not

22     take it upon himself to issue any more serious order, if he is in a

23     position to get in touch with me.

24        Q.   Thank you.  So if he, by chance, assigns a task to somebody, does

25     that mean that he has the duty to inform you that he had issued such a

Page 9571

 1     task while you were absent?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So the duty organs in the battalion, in the brigade,

 4     can we say that their main task is to regulate the situation in

 5     accordance with the rules of service in relation to everyday tasks and

 6     that commanding is not within their purview?

 7        A.   I told that you it all depends on the situation and that you

 8     can't apply the same rules every time.  In most cases, the duty

 9     operative -- or, rather, in the battalion there was no duty operative,

10     there was just a duty officer, duty officer of the battalion.  So it all

11     depended on the situation but he would mainly coordinate things.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you then tell us what is this coordination all

13     about?

14        A.   I again have to emphasise that it depends on the tasks.

15        Q.   Thank you.  So if the duty officer in the battalion or in the

16     brigade is unclear about something, does he have the right to apply to

17     the duty operative in a higher unit?  Meaning the one from the battalion

18     to the brigade, the one from the brigade to the corps?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is there a rule -- is there a duty defined in the rules, his duty

21     that he had to consult with others in case he was unclear about what to

22     do?

23        A.   I would not exclude the possibility of such a coordination.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

25     page 17 of his statement.

Page 9572

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I'm reading the first, second, third, fourth line.  Thank you.

 3     This is page 18 in English.  The investigator asked you - we can see

 4     that - on line 2:

 5             "Is there some specific unit within the brigade that would be in

 6     charge of taking over these prisoners?"

 7             And then you say:

 8             "I think that that is the duty of the security organ."

 9             And then you go on to say, on line 5 -- well, the investigator

10     tells you:  "And then that would take them back."

11             And then you say:

12             "Yes.  In any case that is true."

13             And then in line 8, you say, and who, then, would they report --

14     who would they report this incident to in the brigade?  One of the two,

15     it depends which one is at the present at the moment.  And then you told

16     the investigator, in response to his question, you said the security

17     organs would take the prisoners.  Would they physically turn up at your

18     battalion to take the prisoners?

19             And you say, in line 12:

20             "I mentioned earlier that I didn't have such experience.  All of

21     this now that we are talking about, it's all just assumptions."

22             So my question is:  The commanders, the komandirs, the soldiers,

23     if they learned about the prisoners, would the security organs learn

24     about them as well?  Who can find out about these matters?

25        A.   It depends on which unit we are talking about.

Page 9573

 1        Q.   Okay.  But in any case, who would be the first person to be

 2     informed about a capture?  Would it be the person who actually captured

 3     him or somebody working in a command?

 4        A.   Well, we are talking about here about the coordination between a

 5     soldier, komandir and commander.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So does that mean that they have to inform their

 7     superiors about the fact that they captured somebody in the zone of their

 8     combat activity?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And then you, as the commander of the battalion, you would call

11     up the security organ and assign him a task in relation to those captured

12     people.

13        A.   Well, first of all, I could not issue order to security organs.

14     They had their duties and could not take such orders, but I informed the

15     duty operative about it.  It means that I tried to inform the brigade

16     organs about such a case.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And I apologise for asking you, because you did not

18     have such a specific example in your practice and I certainly wish to

19     emphasise that.

20             Now, since you did not have any such example in your practice, as

21     you stated here in this statement, page 18, does that mean that the

22     brigade would be informed about the prisoners from their subordinated

23     units?  Thank you.

24        A.   Probably.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 9574

 1        A.   If we are talking about individual cases.  Individual cases,

 2     then, yes, probably yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have a security organ in your battalion?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, could it be made clear if we're talking

 7     about the prisoners that are the subject of his testimony or if this is

 8     just hypothetical, because the prisoners of the testimony are a very

 9     unique situation and it is impossible to tell from the question whether

10     we're talking about the prisoners at Rocevic school or capturing a

11     prisoner on the front line.

12             If that could be made clear, it might help us with the meaning of

13     his testimony.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I, myself, was wondering where these kind of

15     questions would lead us.

16             Perhaps you can explain that or go ahead with your questioning.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             The witness and I are talking about the situation as it existed

19     in the field.  Later on, we are going to talk about specific topics when

20     it is time to talk about specific topics.  Right now he was talking about

21     jurisdictions, and I simply want to ask him whether a security organ

22     would receive an order from the commander who -- to deal with the

23     prisoners who were captured within the zone of responsibility of the

24     brigade.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 9575

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I want to ask him whether he had a security organ in the

 3     battalion and whether he would assign him tasks in relation to prisoners

 4     who appeared within his zone.

 5        A.   Just a moment.  I really want your questions to be direct and

 6     more specific so that they would be more clear to me.

 7             A moment ago, when speaking about prisoners, you were saying

 8     something, but I have to say they were not my prisoners.  They were not

 9     captured by my prisoners.  They were not brought there by my --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  They were not

11     captured by my soldiers and they were not brought by my soldiers.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I thought that you were asking

13     about me about rules in general and not specifically, about specific

14     prisoners in the field.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, exactly, I was asking you about rules.  You said

17     that there were no prisoners within your zone.

18        A.   Within my defence zone.

19        Q.   Within your defence zone.  And they were not captured by your

20     soldiers.  They were brought there by some unknown soldiers.  So that is

21     why I was asking you, so far, only about the rules and general situation.

22     I apologise for not clarifying this sufficiently.

23             My following question is as follows:  If the organs of the

24     military police are engaged, on the orders of their superior, on tasks of

25     securing war prisoners which appeared within the zone, such as the case

Page 9576

 1     in Rocevici, who would then be in the position to issue them orders about

 2     this, or, rather, who -- from whom would they receive their orders to

 3     perform such a task?

 4        A.   Military police?

 5        Q.   Yes, yes.  Military police.  From whom does the military police

 6     receive the task to engage their forces in support of war prisoners?

 7        A.   I really cannot answer that question.  As I told you, it all

 8     depends on the situation.  It depends on who specifically was then in a

 9     situation to issue such orders.

10        Q.   Thank you.  To whom is the military police unit within the

11     brigade subordinated?  To whom are subordinated all the military

12     policemen in the brigade?

13        A.   Well, all units within the brigade are normally subordinated to

14     the commander.  However, the military police company would coordinate it,

15     first of all, with the security organs.  They had some sort of a close

16     relationship with them.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So it means that they had a certain relationship with

18     the security organs in addition to their duties and relations with the

19     commander.

20             So their relation with the security organs, was that something

21     that was widely known within the brigade regulated by the rules?

22        A.   I'm really not sure about this.  I -- I really can't answer this

23     question.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In your practice, was it known to the commander, to

25     the Chief of Staff, to everybody in the brigade, that the security organs

Page 9577

 1     and the military police have certain relations in -- with the approval of

 2     the commander, or did they do these things illegally, secretly?

 3        A.   Well, of course, it would be with the approval of the commander.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, I apologise for this.

 5             When you arrived to the school at Rocevici, were you able to

 6     identify any person there who was providing security for the prisoners?

 7     I mean, did you know any person there and did you know to which unit he

 8     belonged?

 9        A.   No.  I already stated that earlier, in my earlier statements.

10        Q.   Thank you.  It is true you said that on page 18.

11             You said that you were informed by the president of the local

12     community and by the local priest that there were some prisoners in the

13     school in the village.  Is that true?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Were you on duty at the time when you were informed about this or

16     were you outside of the unit, taking rest, or somewhere else for your

17     personal needs?  Thank you.

18        A.   I was taking a short break.  That's how I would put it.  I went

19     to my family house to take care of some personal needs but just for a

20     brief time.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you then, as a member of the brigade and an

22     inhabitant of the Rocevici village, engage in order to resolve the

23     situation which had arisen in a positive way, the situation that you were

24     informed about by the president of the local commune and the priest so

25     that you would help them and do something about their concern?

Page 9578

 1        A.   I was not resolving any situation there but, as I told you, I did

 2     what I did.  First of all, my duty was to inform the brigade command

 3     about the events that were taking place in Rocevici and that's what I

 4     did.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you fulfil your military duty by doing that, even

 6     though you were not on duty at the moment?  I mean, informing the

 7     superior command about the events which were taking place in the

 8     brigade's zone of responsibility?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Yes.  Because this was an extraordinary event.  I felt duty-bound

10     to inform the brigade command about this, especially as such things were

11     happening in Rocevici at the time.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And then, being humane, did you also engage in order

13     to improve the conditions for the prisoners, did you request that they be

14     given food, water and so on, when you learned that they would be

15     exchanged?  Thank you.

16        A.   Well, I was engaged about that for a brief time for purely humane

17     reasons, because I felt pity and so on and so forth.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You explained that on page 23, in line 7, and for the

19     sake of the transcript, I wanted to mention that.  Thank you.

20             Now if could you please have a look at page 26, because I will be

21     asking you questions in connection with that.  It's page 26.  And

22     specifically, lines 8 to 18.

23             Let have a look at lines 17 and 18 about which I will ask you the

24     first question, so that you can find your bearings.  It's page 28 in the

25     English version of the text.

Page 9579

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, Aleksandar.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, when did Mr. Popovic

 4     tell you that the prisoners who were at the school in Rocevici would be

 5     exchanged?  Thank you.

 6        A.   As I told you, when I had contact with him when I was informing

 7     the brigade about the events in Rocevici, that was when he told me, Don't

 8     panic too much, these people will be exchanged tomorrow.  And on the

 9     basis of these words of his, I sensed a sort of relief.

10        Q.   Thank you.  This is my question:  Were you aware that there were

11     also soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska who were taken prisoners by

12     the Army of BiH, and was it logical for you to accept such an explanation

13     that they could be exchanged ones for the others?

14        A.   There was probably such a possibility.  It was a matter of

15     agreement.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Was it possible that such an exchange be postponed

17     because of one or the other side which may have imposed certain

18     conditions for the exchange so that it didn't take place?

19        A.   Well, I really cannot answer such questions because this was not

20     the kind of information that I had at my disposal, and consequently, I

21     think that I'm not the right person to answer such questions.  I cannot

22     give any kind of answer to questions of that sort.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I didn't find any mentioning of

25     exchange of prisoners on that page we have in front of us.

Page 9580

 1             Can you help me, indicating which part of the -- this OTP

 2     interview you are referring to?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             I said on page 26, in lines 8 to 18.  Line 17, I quote.  I quote

 5     line 17:

 6             "They said again that on the next day they would be evacuated and

 7     would be exchanged."

 8             I apologise, it's possible that I mentioned the wrong page number

 9     in English.  It's page 27 in English and I probably said page 28.  Thank

10     you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said 26.  And now, hopefully, we have the

12     right page on the screen.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It is actually page 29

14     in English version, line 17.  I was reading from what I have.  Page 26,

15     line 17.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, now we are really confused.  Which

17     page is the right one?  I have no idea.  First you said 26; then 27; then

18     29; then, again, 26.

19             Which is the correct page in English?  I don't find the relevant

20     part.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  It's

22     page 29 in the English version and page 26 in the Serbian language.

23     Line 17.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Let's wait if we will find it.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could I ask in the future that we're provided

Page 9581

 1     with not only the page in the English version but the line in the

 2     English version.  That's just normal.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have page 30.  It seems to be line 5, or

 4     3 through 5 on page 30.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, Mr. President, 3 to 5

 6     on page -- is it 30?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have page 30 in English.  But I don't know

 8     if we have the relevant page in B/C/S on the screen.

 9             We need your clear guidance for the Registry so that they can

10     display the right pages, Mr. Tolimir.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

12     read it out for the transcript.  It's page 26, line 17, in the Serbian

13     language, and it's part of the 65 ter 02264, which I received from the

14     Prosecution.  And my legal assistant says that these are lines 4 and 5 on

15     page 29 in the English version.  That is to say, page 30 -- I'm sorry,

16     because I don't speak or read English -- thank you.  These are lines 30

17     in the English language.  It means 26 in -- what are the lines,

18     Aleksandar?

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Lines 3 to 5 on page 30, as

21     requested by Mr. McCloskey.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now on the screen.  After all this

23     confusion, we found the relevant part.

24             Now put a question to the witness, please.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 9582

 1        Q.   My question for the witness before this confusion arose as my

 2     mistake, as I can't speak English, was this:  When were you told that the

 3     persons who were prisoners and held in Rocevici would be exchanged?

 4     Thank you.

 5        A.   After that, when I first contacted the duty operations officer

 6     that is to say, when I called the brigade to report to them about the

 7     events that I told you about and that were taking place in Rocevici.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  We shall now move to another part of 65 ter 02063,

 9     your statement, where you discuss the problems of the so-called encrypted

10     telegram.  That's the subject.  And it's page 7 of the second section of

11     the statement.  The date is the 17th of March, 2002.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see in e-court

13     page 7 about which I will be asking questions, so that the witness could

14     see what I'm asking him in connection with the telegram.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which line in B/C/S and which page in English and

16     line in English, please.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is page 7 in the B/C/S version.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which line?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Lines 1, 2, 3, and 4.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which line and page in English?

21             Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just a suggestion.  There's an old rule that

23     statements like this are really not relevant unless they're used to

24     either refresh someone's recollection or impeach them.

25             This witness recollects about these situations.  He can answer

Page 9583

 1     questions all about it.  This going through his statements that's neither

 2     impeaching him nor giving him any recollection is -- seems to be a waste

 3     of time, especially since we can't find the English version.  So perhaps

 4     if we went back to some traditional rules and just asked the witness

 5     about the topic, which I'm not even sure are in contest, we could save

 6     some time.  Because I think we have now -- there's a couple of interviews

 7     that this gentleman gave, and I think we have 02063 is not the interview

 8     we've been talking about, which was September of 2010.  This is another

 9     one, I think in March.

10             So -- or we could take an early break and have Mr. Gajic really

11     get together on this.  I know it's confusing sometimes.  But I really see

12     no reason to even be using this.  There's no impeachment, there's no

13     refreshing of recollection.  Why are we reading this material?  It is not

14     relevant, it's not appropriate.  Unless the witness is stumped or needs

15     to be impeached, we don't need this transcript.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The most important thing is that you get it clear

17     what you are putting to the witness.  If you look at the transcript, we

18     are dealing for a long time now just finding the relevant portion of the

19     OTP statement.  And this is really a waste of time.  Perhaps a bad

20     preparation of the cross-examination.

21             I -- I would like to know which is the document on the screen at

22     the moment, which is the number, as Mr. McCloskey was referring to a

23     different number at the moment?

24             Which one is it?  Is it 65 ter 02064 still?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 9584

 1             I wish to emphasise both to you and Mr. McCloskey that I am the

 2     source of the confusion because I can't read or speak English.  My legal

 3     assistant, who does speak and read English, is helping me.  But from now

 4     on, because I have no intention of impeaching this witness, nor of

 5     checking what he said, I will just quote what I noted from today's

 6     transcript, because I'm not to be blamed for not speaking English.

 7             So I will leave alone this interview and I will focus on the

 8     transcript.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Today, on page 34, line 14, of today's transcript, you discussed

11     an encrypted telegram which contained an order that you should set up, as

12     Mr. McCloskey said, a firing squad.  And you explained how you received

13     that telegram.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And how it was decoded while you were sleeping.

16             As you remember that, my question is this:  Did your duty organs,

17     on the basis of the code that you had in the battalion, decode this

18     telegram?  Thank you.

19        A.   Yes, they did.

20        Q.   Was the telegram sent to you with the code that was used only by

21     your Zvornik Brigade for communication in this manner?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Were these intimate conversations between the brigade command and

24     the subordinate units of the brigade?

25        A.   It was a table for decoding telegrams for a specific time-period.

Page 9585

 1        Q.   Thank you.  On page 34, from line 4 onwards, you talked about the

 2     numbers and letters used for the codes which are included in the tables.

 3             This is my question:  Did every commanding officer in the

 4     battalion have training that would enable him to decode all the telegrams

 5     that would arrive to the battalion?

 6        A.   I believe that they were.  Each member of the battalion command

 7     should be trained in such a way that he can decode any possible encrypted

 8     telegram.  I say that they should have been trained for that, but whether

 9     it was really like that or not, it's something I cannot say with any

10     certainty.

11        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  On page 37, line 25, of today's

12     transcript, Mr. McCloskey said that you contacted Popovic.  And you

13     reacted on page 38, line 3, and you said that you did not try to contact

14     him but that you reached him accidentally and that he -- you got him on

15     the phone through the duty operations officer.

16             As you remember the situation, this is what I want to ask you.

17     Mr. McCloskey asked you later on whether it was dark at the time and you

18     said that you are not 100 percent sure?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   On the basis of all that, my question is this:  What day was

21     that, about which Mr. McCloskey asked you whether it was dark on that day

22     or not?

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   And do you know what date it was?

25        A.   Please don't ask me about any dates or days of the week.  Because

Page 9586

 1     in all my previous statements, I said that if you want me to confirm what

 2     date or what day of the week it was, I am not certain, I do not remember,

 3     and if you insist, I might make an error.  So as for the dates and the

 4     like, you don't have to ask me anything because I will tell you in

 5     advance that I'm not certain what day of the week or what specific date

 6     it was.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Could you perhaps tell us whether it was on the

 8     13th or on the 14th?

 9        A.   I can't tell you anything.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I --

11        A.   Approximately, yes, but -- approximately, on the basis of

12     everything else, it should have been these dates when these events took

13     place in Rocevici, but I'm not certain and I cannot confirm whether it

14     was on the 13th or 14th, when these unfortunate events happened.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And can you remember what was the date on which you

16     received the telegram?

17        A.   Well, I told you that I don't remember any single date, and

18     consequently, I would kindly ask you not to ask me such questions, if

19     that's possible, questions that entail me saying exactly what date it

20     was.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I want to apologise to you for asking you that, but I

22     asked you that so that the Trial Chamber would have the information in

23     the transcript, because earlier you talked about the arrival of the

24     telegram and because there were other witnesses here who told us when

25     approximately this could have happened, and you mentioned their names.

Page 9587

 1        A.   All right.  All right.

 2        Q.   They were talking about the fact that it happened around

 3     2.00 after midnight?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So if it was the 12th, it actually the 13th, 2.00 a.m.?

 6        A.   No, no, I think I was clear.  I think I explained that.  I spoke

 7     about the time in relation to the events in the field.  I did not speak

 8     about some earlier period.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, we have to look at page 17 of your second

10     interview.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President requested me to tell

12     exactly which interview that is.  It's the 17th March of the year 2002.

13     The interview was held in Banja Luka.  And it's 65 ter 02063, page 17,

14     lines 21 to 25.

15             It's page 17 also in English, as my legal advisor just informed

16     me.  Thank you.

17             So, everybody can see it, and I'm now going to read it and then

18     I'll ask a question.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I am quoting from the beginning of the sentence, page 17,

21     line 20.  You can follow it in Serbian.  And in English, that's -- it's

22     line 4 and onwards.  I quote:

23             "Well, first of all, we decided regardless of what was happening

24     at the time, because we were expecting that somebody was going to do

25     something because an order had been refused.  But most of all we had in

Page 9588

 1     mind the fact that the previous day we saw on the television and we knew

 2     that it was General Mladic who announced to the public and everybody in

 3     Srebrenica that some sort of security would be guaranteed."

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that you were able to follow

 5     in English.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We were not able to follow that.  I didn't find

 7     it on that page.  Please check if it's the right page.

 8             You said in English, it's line 4 and onwards.  It is not line 4.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I do see on line 17 there's the --

11     a discussion where General Mladic is brought up.  Perhaps that's where it

12     begins.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for your assistance for the accused.

14     But I would like to have -- to have it clear when the accused is asking

15     for that document.

16             Carry on, please, and put a question to the witness.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I

18     apologise.  Thank you to Mr. McCloskey.  I quoted what I knew.  I knew

19     that it was page 17 in Serbian.  And I apologise for not giving the exact

20     reference in English.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   So my question is as follows:  First of all, do you remember what

23     you stated here in this statement?

24        A.   Partially.

25        Q.   Did you hear this in the media, this thing that you mentioned,

Page 9589

 1     that General Mladic guaranteed the security and safety and so on and so

 2     forth?

 3        A.   I saw it on television after these events, much later.  That's

 4     when you could see those things in the media.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6        A.   I think.  I think so, that's what I can remember.

 7        Q.   But here in line 22, you say, and I quote:

 8             "The foremost fact in our mind was the fact that we saw it the

 9     day before on the television, and we knew that it was announced to the

10     public and to everybody in Srebrenica that General Mladic guaranteed

11     their safety."

12             From this statement, it turns out that you saw it the day before,

13     on the television.  Is that so or not?

14        A.   I can't answer your question because it's -- I'm not clear about

15     the question.  I can't really see what this is all about and what is it

16     that you're asking me about.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Is it possible that what you said had been

18     misinterpreted while this transcript was made and that it is different

19     from what I have here as your statement?

20        A.   I really don't remember.  What you just read out to me, bearing

21     in mind how you read it out, it means that I cannot really say anything

22     about it at this moment.

23        Q.   All right.  Without me reading out anything, why don't you read

24     for yourself the whole sentence and then tell me whether you saw it on

25     television or not.

Page 9590

 1        A.   Just a moment.

 2             It is possible.  Although I'm not sure about exactly when

 3     Srebrenica was taken over, it is possible that General Mladic gave some

 4     statements immediately after that and that in those statements he

 5     guaranteed the safety of the prisoners.

 6             So it is possible that we saw it the same night or whenever we

 7     watched television.  So it is possible that this answer was given in that

 8     context.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So was that the basis for your decision?

10        A.   No, no.

11        Q.   Because you say here:

12             "We were expecting that something would be done about the fact

13     that an order was refused."

14        A.   No.  We had completely different things in mind.

15        Q.   All right.  You had completely different things in mind.  Then

16     why did you say here that General Mladic gave some guarantees to

17     everybody in Srebrenica?  My question was only about this specific point.

18     Did you have in mind that fact?

19        A.   Among other things.  It was an information.  It was something

20     that we knew.  But apart from that, I, as a human being and a reserve

21     officer, I would never allow myself or my associates to take part in such

22     a mad idea of somebody else.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I understand you.  But what I'm talking about here

24     is, isn't that also similar to the public guarantees of security given by

25     General Mladic?

Page 9591

 1        A.   Well, I can't really connect these two things.  I don't know

 2     whether those things were taken into account or not.  We are now talking

 3     about the time that had elapsed and if I were now to make a connection

 4     between these two things, it would be dishonest for me that I -- if I

 5     would say that I remember these things.

 6        Q.   All right.  But were you held responsible for the fact that you

 7     did not want take part in something that was illegal and something that

 8     was even completely ruled out as a possibility in public statements?

 9        A.   Could you clarify this question?

10        Q.   Was it realistic for you to refuse the order to execute soldiers,

11     bearing in mind, that, in the media, you heard that the superior officers

12     guaranteed the security and safety of those prisoners, saying that they

13     would be exchanged?

14        A.   I really did not understand your question fully.  I would rather

15     not answer it.  I'm not quite clear what exactly it is that you're

16     asking.  Could you maybe simplify your question?  I'm definitely going to

17     answer any question that you pose.  But there is no need to quote

18     anything or anybody else.  Just ask me specifically, concretely, and I'm

19     going to answer every question of yours.

20        Q.   All right.  Let us not quote anything, then.  My question is:

21     Could we say that you had some sort of guarantee that nobody would

22     disturb you, because you heard in the media that everybody received

23     guarantees that they were going to be exchanged?

24        A.   At the moment, I really did not think about that.  If you think

25     that, at the time I considered any guarantees, I have to tell you that

Page 9592

 1     probably, at that moment, I did not think about that.  Really, I cannot

 2     give you an explanation about your question that would satisfy you.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I don't need anything here.

 4        A.   All right.  All right.

 5        Q.   What I'm asking you is, had you heard beforehand that there were

 6     guarantees of security to the population on television and on radio?

 7        A.   I'm really telling you, here and now, that if I said something

 8     like that in 2001, that I had a recollection of this sort, that before

 9     these unfortunate events took place, and if I said that that happened

10     after the takeover of Srebrenica, then, probably, yes, I did say

11     something like that.  But I can't remember these things that you are

12     putting to me now.  And I don't know whether it's relevant.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we are really running out of time.

14     We need our second break.

15             Before we do that, I have to make a correction.  You, on page 71,

16     line 12, you were referring to several pages of a document.  That should

17     read, to have it later on clear on the record, English page 17, lines 19

18     through 25 ; and B/C/S, not page 17 but page 18, lines 11 through 18.

19     Just to clarify this situation on the record.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has a short question and then we

23     will have our break.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, as a follow-up to the

25     question put by the Defence, I would like to know, since you were a

Page 9593

 1     battalion commander, you had received a very important order.  You were

 2     asked to send soldiers out to execute prisoners.  This is not a standard

 3     order like going to fetch some bread.

 4             What I would like to know is this:  In your army, as far as

 5     disciplinary matters are concerned, what sanctions were imposed when an

 6     officer like you refused to obey an order?  More specifically, highly

 7     important orders stemming from these superiors in the military.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably in every army there are

 9     certain measures for refusing to obey an order.  Bearing in mind what

10     kind of order it was, I think that nobody was able, and nobody was in a

11     position to start such a proceedings.  That's my answer.

12             On the other hand, truth be told, I can't tell you why such

13     proceedings were not initiated.  There is one reason.  In relation to the

14     Zvornik Brigade and the corps, there was nobody who could have initiated

15     something like that, because everybody was running around in the command,

16     in the brigade, everywhere.  Nobody had enough courage in the brigade

17     itself to stand up against such mad orders.  Nobody, either in the

18     brigade or in the corps.

19             I think that those officers knew at the bottom of their souls

20     that this was something abnormal, something crazy, something contrary to

21     the times that we live in.  I also think that that was one of the reasons

22     why no disciplinary measures were taken against me.

23             That's my personal opinion.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has an additional question.

Page 9594

 1             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I just have one question for you.

 2             You've testified in your evidence that you received a telegram

 3     requesting you to provide a platoon to undertake some executions.

 4             Do you know who -- who wrote you that telegram?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already answered, and I am now

 6     repeating for the umpteenth time.  When the telegram arrived, or,

 7     precisely, when I read the telegram, the contents of the telegram was so

 8     shocking for me, me and my associates, that, really, really, I'm now

 9     repeating it for I don't know which time, I did not remember the

10     signature of the telegram.  I may have read it, but then I was far more

11     concentrated on the contents of the telegram, since I have already given

12     some details about it.

13             After the two telegrams that we have received, I said that

14     Nikolic, who was security organ of the brigade, got in contact with me

15     and tried, somehow, to force me to execute the order.  So I think that I

16     may have already answered your question, if I told you what I know, what

17     I remember.  So I think that that was maybe in the telegram as well.

18             I sincerely hope that you will understand this statement of mine.

19     And I'm going to say it once again.  All the company commanders, or if

20     they were absent, their deputies were informed about the contents of the

21     telegram.  I'm sure that many soldiers know about the contents, about the

22     telegram.  When I talk about soldiers, I talk about the soldiers of the

23     2nd Infantry Battalion.

24             Now, why some individual cannot or do not want to remember these

25     things, well, that's something entirely outside my powers.  Thank you.

Page 9595

 1             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you for your answer.  I have another

 2     question for you.

 3             How were you appointed to your duties?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the order of the brigade

 5     commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Bosancic, in 1992.

 6             JUDGE NYAMBE:  What particular qualifications or skills or

 7     competences do you think influenced your appointment to these duties?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you have in mind the military

 9     qualifications, I had none.  What influenced Lieutenant-Colonel Bosancic?

10     Maybe he had in mind the previous period when I performed the duty of the

11     company commander.  Probably, based on the way that I performed that

12     duty, he considered that I was the best solution at that moment.  I

13     really cannot go any further into details right now about this topic

14     because I was not the person thinking about it.  It was somebody else who

15     issued orders about it, and that somebody else had some information at

16     his disposal, information about me.

17             I think that the way that I performed my duties of the company

18     commander in the 3rd Infantry Battalion may have acted as some sort of

19     recommendation for my appointment as the battalion commander.

20             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you for your answers.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we, Mr. President, release Helge Brunborg.

23     I see it's getting late and my voice is going out, and I'm not sure how

24     much the General has to go.  But it would be great to start with him

25     tomorrow morning.

Page 9596

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think there is -- it is very unlikely that we

 2     can start with this witness.  He should be released, it's my

 3     understanding as well.  I think Mr. Tolimir has some more questions to go

 4     and there will be -- it has to be the opportunity for re-examination and

 5     some other questions, perhaps, from the Chamber.

 6             We must finally have now our second break and we will resume half

 7     past 6.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 6.00 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 6.32 p.m.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

11             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence would like

12     to offer up a small apology because of erroneous references.  Sometimes

13     the lines of the transcript do not correspond the transcript we're using

14     in the courtroom, and the documents that we used as working documents,

15     some of them are in Word format, some of them are in PDF format, so then

16     the order is not the same for some reason.  We don't know why that

17     happens, so we would like to apologise for all the difficulties that

18     ensued because of this difference.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for those kind words.  I just

20     want to give you a reason why this is really problematic.  If the --

21     especially if the interpreters can't follow in the English or in the

22     B/C/S version, and especially for us, we need the English or French

23     translation, we need the clear reference.  Otherwise additional

24     translation problems will occur.  And also for the court record it is

25     also very difficult.

Page 9597

 1             Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since a

 3     lot of time was spent on making the lines of the transcript correspond,

 4     so we used a lot of time on that, I would just like to process one more

 5     topic, and I would like to round off the previous topics.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Since there were problems in establishing the exact date when

 8     this happened, I would like to ask you this:  Are you saying that the

 9     prisoners were, first of all, captured and then they were deployed in

10     your area?  Is that something that is logical?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now we're going to see a statement by one witness.

13     This is 9401.  That is the transcript page, 9401, lines 1 to 12, where

14     the witness, who is a Prosecution witness, and who had been captured,

15     said that, on 13th, he was on the playground in Konjevic Polje.  He

16     described that General Mladic came to Konjevic Polje on that occasion,

17     that he had a meeting with them, that he said that -- he would go for an

18     exchange, that there were five people there whose names were listed, and

19     that this took one hour.  It took them one hour to make a list of people

20     who were going to be exchanged.

21             My question is:  If all of this took place on the 13th, on the

22     13th at noon, then that prisoner probably would have been brought back on

23     the 14th.  Isn't that right?

24        A.   Well, I really cannot answer that question.

25        Q.   Well, could that have been on the 12th?

Page 9598

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would like to give the floor to

 2     Mr. McCloskey before you put the next question.

 3             Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, just on his -- General's paraphrase of

 5     the -- of the survivor witness, I believe he is speaking of the

 6     playground or the football pitch at Nova Kasaba.  I'm not aware of a

 7     playground at Konjevic Polje.  There is a building in Konjevic Polje but

 8     it's -- it's the playground, football pitch at Nova Kasaba, where I

 9     think, he is talking about the list and General Mladic.

10             So I just wanted so sort that out.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you agree, Mr. Tolimir?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, I do agree with

13     that.

14             Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   All right.  Well, you have heard from the Prosecution and he

17     remembers as well that this is something that the witness stated, that

18     this happened at the football pitch in Nova Kasaba and that there, on the

19     13th, General Mladic appeared in the afternoon, that he gave them a

20     speech, and that he took an hour to list the names of the people there.

21             So my question is:  If the prisoners were listed, on the 13th, as

22     persons to be exchanged, could they have been located in Zvornik in the

23     afternoon on the 13th, or was that some other day?  Was it possible that

24     they had spent the night in Bratunac?  Thank you.

25        A.   I'm really unable to answer that question.  I'm not familiar with

Page 9599

 1     the facts relating to those prisoners and a series of other circumstances

 2     dealing with those particular prisoners.  I really would not venture into

 3     giving any kind of statement on that particular topic.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I understand that.  You are a witness.  This Court

 5     and I, as an accused, we need to establish the facts, the date when these

 6     prisoners were exchanged.  You've already said that you don't want to do

 7     that.  I understand why you don't want to do that and it's probably

 8     because you don't know.  All I'm doing is asking you:  Is it logical if

 9     somebody was arrested on the 13th but was placed in schools in the

10     Zvornik municipality on the 12th?  Thank you.

11        A.   I really would not want to say anything about that particular

12     question, if you permit me to say that.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you then tell me, can anyone be arrested a day

14     after being placed in a particular area of responsibility?

15        A.   I'm sorry, can you repeat this question again?  I'm sorry.

16        Q.   This witness of the Prosecution that we mentioned said that on

17     the 13th, he was on the football pitch and that his name was taken down

18     and that General Mladic gave him a speech, that General Mladic said that

19     they were going to be exchanged, that it took them an hour to make a list

20     of these people, that this was something that was done by five people.

21        A.   No, no, all of that is fine.  Just the last part of the question.

22        Q.   If they were on the pitch on the 13th, is there a possibility

23     that on the 12th they were located in Zvornik?  Thank you.

24        A.   There's no logic to that.

25        Q.   Thank you.  So now we have pin-pointed that the 12th is being

Page 9600

 1     ruled out as a possible date.

 2             All right.  Let's go on.  If you remember, in your statement, you

 3     referred to someone telling you that there was an order issued from up

 4     high.  The Prosecutor also said that.  He didn't say who issued this

 5     order.  Then we need to pin-point who that person could be or rule out

 6     somebody who could not have issued that order.  Do you remember any

 7     possible persons who would fit that description?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Since we've seen now that on the 13th, General Mladic

10     was on the football pitch, that this was something that was recorded by

11     television, that he was making a list of the prisoners and this is

12     something that the prisoners themselves testified to.  And I have a

13     statement here, D3.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have D3.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And on the basis of that, my question is:  So, we don't know

17     exactly who it was who issued that order; is that correct?  Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd object.  He needs to get his facts straight

20     on this.  There are hundreds of people at this soccer field.  We have one

21     prisoner that survived.  There's not prisoners that I'm aware of that

22     have given this evidence.  There is one survivor.  So to suggest that

23     there's several prisoners providing this is inappropriate.  He needs to

24     keep his facts straight on these crucial issues.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, did you understand the question?  No, sorry,

Page 9601

 1     there was no -- there was not a question yet.

 2             Mr. Tolimir, please put a question to the witness.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   The question was, and I stopped because Mr. McCloskey was on his

 6     feet.  The question was:  If one survivor claimed that, on the 13th, he

 7     was on the football pitch, that there was a speech, that his name was

 8     written down, and that he was told that he would be going to -- for an

 9     exchange, would that indicate that on the 13th the position was to

10     proceed with the exchange and to list the prisoners?  Thank you.

11        A.   How can I know what the position was?  I did not have any kind of

12     insight into that matter, in order to be able to say anything about that

13     question.  I wouldn't want to be dealing with any assumptions.

14        Q.   All right.  All right.  Just tell me, is there any logic in

15     listing the prisoners for an exchange, to record them with cameras, to

16     give them a speech, and then for that same person who was organising all

17     of that would then have them killed?  Thank you.

18        A.   I think that I clearly stated exactly what I think about that

19     particular issue.  So as for logic, that is something that I would not

20     really use anymore.  I wouldn't use that term anymore, "logic."  Had

21     there been any logic in any of that, I wouldn't be here and you wouldn't

22     be here either.  Evidently somebody did not want, for whatever reasons,

23     simply to -- well, actually, I really don't know what I could tell you

24     about this question, really.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, may I interrupt you for a moment.  I

Page 9602

 1     have some doubt if the kind of questioning is -- helps you and your

 2     Defence in any way.  The witness made very clear that he doesn't recall

 3     exact dates.  Therefore, it's not helpful to put questions to that

 4     effect.  And the other thing is, to -- to ask him about events he was not

 5     present and to draw some conclusions of different events, and if

 6     something is logical, this is a question you should answer yourself and

 7     everybody else in the courtroom, especially if it's related to events

 8     that the witness has never testified about.

 9             Please bear that in mind and put questions to the relevant parts

10     of his previous testimony, and you should continue in that respect.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Mr. President, I

12     understand you, and I understand the witness, too.  But in order for us

13     to establish the dates, all I can do is ask him whether, on the basis of

14     the references given by the witness who survived, that he was in Kasaba

15     on the 13th, is the witness able to say whether they were people who were

16     prisoners in Nova Kasaba on the 13th.  Thank you.  I don't want anything

17     more than that.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I that I already answered

19     that question.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

21             Could the e-court please show us D3.  Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   We can see the document on the screen.  We spoke about the 13th,

24     and this document talks about the 14th and the 15th.  Can you please look

25     at the second paragraph of this document.  This is a statement by

Page 9603

 1     Major-General Elliott, a British Army general, an officer of the

 2     British Army.  And in the second paragraph of the statement he says:

 3              "On July 14th, 1995, I travelled to Belgrade with Bildt,

 4     General de Lapresle and others ... Mr. Bildt attended a meeting with

 5     President Slobodan Milosevic of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

 6     between approximately 1300 and 1700 hours.  At the conclusion of this

 7     meeting, Mr. Bildt debriefed the other members of his delegation,

 8     including myself, on issues relating to his meeting with

 9     President Milosevic.  Later that same evening, at ... 1900 hours,

10     Mr. Bildt and General de Lapresle met with President Milosevic and

11     General Ratko Mladic, commander of the Main Staff of the Bosnian Serb

12     Army.  The meeting concluded at approximately 2200 hours on the

13     14th of July, 1995."

14             This was the first paragraph.

15             In the second paragraph, line 4, the same person states:

16             "On the 15th of July, 1995, in Belgrade, Mr. Bildt,

17     Ambassador Stoltenberg, Mr. Akashi ... attended the meetings with

18     President Milosevic and other members of his delegation.  In attendance

19     at his meeting was General Mladic.  The meeting commenced at about

20     1200 hours and concluded at about 2200 hours.  During this time,

21     General Mladic remained in my presence until the conclusion of the

22     meeting."

23             So my question is:  If the witness that survived says that

24     General Mladic was in this place on the 13th and then he was where he is

25     said to be on the 14th and the 15th, could General Mladic have been

Page 9604

 1     present at these locations that you referred to, the elementary school in

 2     Rocevic?

 3        A.   This depends on the transport means that he had at his disposal.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you quoted from paragraph 3, lines 1

 6     through 7, and not second paragraph, line 4, just for the record, to have

 7     it clear what you are putting to the witness.

 8             Please continue.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Should I repeat this

10     quote?  I have read the whole of the second paragraph and the

11     third paragraph from the line 5 onwards.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you didn't read from the

13     second paragraph but from the third paragraph.  I just wanted to make it

14     clear for the record.  And now continue, please.  Don't repeat anything.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then I have to read the

16     first paragraph because I want it to be in the record.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are in the record.  You were quoting

18     absolutely correctly but you were reading from the second and the

19     third paragraph.  I think your -- Mr. Gajic will ...

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And now continue and put a question to the

22     witness.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   So, if General Mladic, on the 14th of July, 1995, had a meeting

Page 9605

 1     with Mr. Elliot and Mr. Bildt, and if, on the 15th of July, he had a

 2     meeting from 12.00 to 22 hours, could he have been at some other location

 3     at that time?

 4        A.   General, sir, I would like to tell you once again, I had no

 5     information about the whereabouts of General Mladic, about whom he met,

 6     when he met them.  That is something that I know absolutely nothing about

 7     it.  And I really cannot understand that are you now asking me to answer

 8     questions about such details since I have absolutely no idea about it.

 9             Excuse me.

10             I certainly could not have had any such information, and now you

11     expect me to talk about something that I know nothing about.  I was not

12     privy to such information.  I think this is really inappropriate.  You

13     cannot ask me about such details.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I understand you.  I understand why you don't want to

15     answer and I'm not going to insist on it.

16             I read you a statement and a transcript of a witness who was in

17     Nova Kasaba, but I understand why you don't want to answer whether

18     somebody can be at two different places simultaneously.  The

19     Trial Chamber is going to decide about that, and I'm not going to ask you

20     about this.  I'm going to ask you about something that you maybe have

21     some knowledge about.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 2063.  Thank

23     you.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We need 65 ter 2063,

Page 9606

 1     page 45 in Serbian, lines 3 to 8.  And in English, it's page 44, lines 17

 2     to 24.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This is where you say that you had been warned about the attack

 5     that threatened the Zvornik Brigade on the part of the sabotage groups

 6     and the units leaving Srebrenica.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us anything about this event or whatever you know

 9     about it?

10        A.   After the fall of Srebrenica, we would receive information

11     through telegram telling us that enemy armed columns were moving through

12     the depth of our territory.  By that, I mean behind our defence lines.

13     Their possible axis of movement went through my zone of defence.  The

14     villages of Malesici and Boskovici.  We received instructions to take

15     certain measures so that our soldiers would be in the unit and alert, in

16     order to prevent any sort of surprise, such as being ambushed from the

17     back, or being attacked from the front.

18        Q.   Thank you.  My question is as follows:  Did the units of the

19     28th Division from Srebrenica move under fire through the zone of

20     responsibility of your brigade with the intent to cross the zone of

21     defence of your battalion?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   Did your brigade have any losses, bearing in mind that they were

24     moving and taking part in action?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9607

 1        Q.   Did your battalion have any losses?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us how many losses did you have?

 4        A.   I cannot be sure about it.  I think two soldiers, but I'm not

 5     100 per cent sure.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any captured in this conflict, in this

 7     breakthrough?

 8        A.   I have no information to that effect.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have in e-court 1D373,

10     page 3.  Thank you.

11             Yes, page 3.  Now the last paragraph on this page bears number 3

12     in Serbian.  In English, I think it's the following page.  Thank you.  So

13     it's the third paragraph from the top, yes.  So in English, it's at the

14     top of the page, in Serbian it's at the bottom of the page, both

15     paragraphs bearing number 3.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   It goes as follows:

18             "The units of the 28th Division are pulling out of Srebrenica

19     while still fighting.  They have remained compact.  They have scored

20     success after success in the temporarily occupied territory.  They have

21     inflicted great losses on the aggressors.  So far, they have

22     eight Chetniks alive in captivity.  Units of the 28th Division have

23     linked up with the infiltrated units of the 2nd Corps.  Their joint

24     forces have continued fighting in the temporarily occupied territory.  It

25     is expected that they will fully link up with this unit.  Activities are

Page 9608

 1     underway to exploit the success of units carrying out the breakthrough."

 2             So this is a document written by Rasim Delic.  You can see in the

 3     English version that his name appears.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we now have the following

 5     page, the last page in Serbian.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You can see that this was signed by Army General, Commander

 8     Rasim Delic.  The report is dated the 16th of July, 1995.  You can see

 9     that on the second page.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the second page in

11     e-court.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   So he informed other units within his army about it.  You can see

14     here the masthead towards the bottom of the page.

15             My question is as follows:  Was this attack as large as described

16     here and was there a real danger that those compact forces which managed

17     to leave Srebrenica would threaten units such as battalions along their

18     path of breakthrough?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   He mentions eight captured Chetniks.  Was there anybody captured

21     in your unit?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Can you tell us what do you know in general about this fighting

24     and were there any captured people?

25        A.   No, I was never in those parts.

Page 9609

 1        Q.   Do you know how many captured or killed members of the brigade

 2     were there in that fighting?

 3        A.   I really don't know any precise data.  I really wouldn't dare say

 4     anything about it.  Right now, these data are not available to me.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember which unit from the brigade took part

 6     in prevention of this breakthrough of the enemy through the zone of

 7     responsibility of your brigade?

 8        A.   Probably all the units of the Zvornik Brigade took part in it.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, through the territory of which

10     battalion did the Muslim formation accomplish its breakthrough?

11        A.   I think it was the direction of the village of Kitovnica, but I'm

12     not sure.  I'm not sure about which battalion had this village in its

13     zone of responsibility.  I think it was the 4th.

14        Q.   Do you happen to know which battalion defended the area of

15     Baljkovica?

16        A.   I think it was the 4th Battalion.  I'm not quite sure about what

17     was the zone of defence of the Zvornik Brigade in that area, so I'm not

18     exactly sure about in which zone of defence which village was.

19        Q.   Okay.  Delic here says that the units of the 20th Division left

20     Srebrenica while fighting.  My question is as follows:  Did the Serbian

21     army open a corridor for them, resulting in the fact that there were not

22     other casualties in that particular zone?

23        A.   A corridor was opened.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, if you look at the clock, we are

25     past 7.00 already.  We have to stop it now.

Page 9610

 1             And we are in a difficult position.  You have nearly used

 2     two hours for your cross-examination.  Some parts, as we discussed

 3     earlier, was a waste of time because figuring out the right documents

 4     with the right numbers.  I don't know how to continue.

 5             Can you tell me what is your estimation, how much time do you

 6     need to finalise your cross-examination?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             We announced two hours.  We have spent two hours so far, so I'm

 9     finished.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, that's not true.  That's not true.  You said

11     one to two hours.  This is different.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right.  So if we use

13     two hours, then I finished the cross-examination.

14             I would like to thank the witness for his answers, and I wish you

15     safe journey home on behalf of the Defence.  May God bless him and may he

16     continue his life in joy and happiness.  Thank you, Your Honour, and to

17     everybody helping us, to everybody watching this trial.  Thank you to the

18     Registry.  And I apologise for any technical difficulties while using the

19     transcripts.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  It was not the transcript

21     what was the problem but the OTP interviews, and they are in both

22     languages for a long time at your disposal.  This is the problem.

23             Mr. McCloskey, what is the situation according to re-examination?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have no questions, Mr. President.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 9611

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, this concludes your examination in this

 2     trial.  Thank you that we -- you were able to come to The Hague again and

 3     to help us to find out the truth, and thank you for your assistance you

 4     were able to provide.

 5             You are now free to return to your normal activities, and the

 6     Chamber would like to thank you again.

 7             We adjourn and resume tomorrow at 9.00 in this courtroom.

 8             Thank you, and good-bye.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of

12                           February, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.