Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9966

 1                           Wednesday, 16 February 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             We -- I would like to raise two matters before the witness is

 7     being brought in.  We dealt yesterday again with the exhibits in relation

 8     to Witness Haglund and we received the information that four documents

 9     are still pending with the translation.  The others will be admitted.

10     And the understanding of the Chamber was that the parties agreed on those

11     that don't need a translation.  The Registry will provide and will

12     circulate a memo with the P numbers for all these documents admitted into

13     evidence.

14             The other matter is, we left off yesterday in private session.  I

15     would like to indicate for the record that we had our hearing until 7.00

16     exactly and it was my mistake not to turn back into open session before

17     we left.

18             We have two days of hearings this week ahead, today and tomorrow.

19     There are -- we have to finish this current witness quite soon, hopefully

20     in the first session today, then there are two other witnesses scheduled

21     and Dr. Brunborg to finish his testimony of last week.  I would invite

22     the parties, with every witness, to focus on the issues they are called

23     for and not to waste time with other matters.  I think there's a reason

24     to mention that after the experience of this week with the current

25     witness; both parties used lots of time with matters related to 1992 and

Page 9967

 1     1993, but the witness was called for events in 1995.

 2             Therefore, I would like to invite the parties to look at the time

 3     and to see how to finish as soon as possible.

 4             Is Mr. Haglund [sic] still scheduled by the Prosecution for this

 5     week, Mr. Thayer?

 6             MR. THAYER:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Yes, he is, and

 7     that's Mr. Brunborg.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Oh, sorry, I mixed the names up again; it's a

 9     shame, of course.  I was referring to Mr. Brunborg.  This is one more

10     reason to hurry up as much as possible.

11             The witness shall be brought in, please.  We turn into closed

12     session first.

13                           [Closed session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I hope very much that we can finish your

22     testimony quite soon.  And I have to remind you that the affirmation to

23     tell the truth still applies, as you can imagine.

24                           WITNESS:  PW-013 [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 9968

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Let me say some words.  I think it's a very

 2     difficult situation for you here in the courtroom.  If I interrupt you to

 3     have a pause between question and answer, this is nothing which is

 4     directed against you.  This happens to everybody in the courtroom.

 5     Sometimes the Prosecutor doesn't pause, sometimes Mr. Tolimir doesn't

 6     pause.  This is a problem, but it is not an action against you.  If I cut

 7     you and ask you to wait.  Don't worry about that, please.

 8             Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.

 9             Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you,

11     Mr. President.  Peace in this house.  I would like to say hello to all

12     those present.  I would like for this day of trial, as well as the entire

13     trial, to end according to God's will and not according to mine.

14             Yesterday we were looking at document 1D584.  Could we see that

15     in e-court, please.  1D584.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:  [Continued]

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was quoting what the document

18     says, so can we look at the document.  Now we can see the document.  Once

19     it is enlarged, we can read it.  I'm going to read it; there's no

20     translation.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Let me first say that this is a document of the

23     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the Zepa Light Brigade sent on the

24     17th of January, 1995, to the General Staff of the army, to Kakanj, for

25     Enver Hadzihasanovic personally.  It was signed by the commander,

Page 9969

 1     Colonel Avdo Palic.

 2             Last time, we were talking about why there was no signature.  All

 3     the Zepa documents were sent by electronic means and this is a document

 4     that was received by the OTP from the Bosnian authorities.  And if

 5     documents are sent electronically, then they do not have an actual

 6     signature.

 7             I quote.  First paragraph of this document:

 8             "I take this opportunity to send you my greetings and to remind

 9     you that on the 27th of January, 1995, the 1st Zepa Brigade will be

10     celebrating its second anniversary.  The 1st Zepa Brigade was formed on

11     the 27th of January, 1993, emerging from the Patriotic League through the

12     Territorial Defence units and the local communes of Zepa,

13     Podrepje [phoen], Godjenje, and Luke, and the 4th Detachment and the

14     1st Zepa Detachment.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please slow down while reading.  If

16     you want to have it on the record, then you should slow down.

17             Please continue.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   So I'm repeating a part of what I'm reading out.

21             "From the Territorial Defence units --"

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's no need to repeat something.  Just slow

23     down.  And continue.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 9970

 1        Q.   "... and the 4th June detachment and the 1st Zepa Detachment and

 2     the Zepa brigade was formed on the 27th of January, 1993."

 3             My question is:  This document by Avdo Palic to the command of

 4     the General Staff of the B&H army, does it indicate that the

 5     1st Zepa Brigade was formed on the 1st of January, 1993 -- on the

 6     27th of January, 1993?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11        A.   Yes, that's what it states in the document.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can we redact the name of the location from the

13     transcript so that I can put my next question to the witness.

14             Can we now look at 1D364, please.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you do that, the document was dated

16     17th of January, 1995, if I'm not mistaken, and not 1993.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says the 27th of January, 1993.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's a part of the transcript, and this document

19     in this respect should not be broadcast.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to tender

21     this document so that I could call up the next document.  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a comment on this document.

23     The dates here, the 27th of January, 1995, in the date, and then in the

24     first paragraph there is the 27th of January, 1993, so I don't know which

25     of these dates is correct.  There's also no signature by Avdo Palic on

Page 9971

 1     the document.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Witness, thank you.  I'm just going to read the first sentence to

 4     you.

 5             "I take the opportunity to send you my greetings and to remind

 6     you that on the 27th of January, 1995, the 1st Zepa Brigade will be

 7     celebrating its second anniversary."

 8             So this was written on the occasion of the anniversary, and this

 9     is perhaps the reason why these dates are overlapping or -- or they

10     correspond to each other.

11        A.   No, no, this is fine.  The dates are the same.  I don't know what

12     I'm supposed to confirm with this or not.

13        Q.   What did Avdo Palic -- I mean, did Avdo Palic write this

14     document, and was this Zepa unit formed on the 27th of January, 1993; was

15     he writing on the second anniversary of 1995?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note the last two, three

17     questions and answers we were unable to interpret because the speakers

18     are fast and overlapping.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [No interpretation]

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I stopped you Mr. Tolimir.  We have the same

21     trouble as yesterday.  You should pause as well.  And you are familiar

22     with the proceedings here in the courtroom.  The witness is not.  Please

23     pause.

24             I think I made a mistake, I mixed up the dates 1993 and 1995.

25     It's -- it was clear on the record.  I agree to that.

Page 9972

 1             Now, you see, the interpreters had a problem to interpret

 2     everything what you were asking.  So can you put a short question to the

 3     witness again, please.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you know if the mail from the Zepa Brigade command going to

 7     this address from Sarajevo to Kakanj where it was sent by courier, did it

 8     arrive there by courier or was it sent electronically?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   It something is sent as a telegram by teleprinter, are you aware

11     that it cannot be signed by the person sending it?  So, do you know if

12     the outgoing telegram can bear the personal signature and can this

13     signature be transmitted to the location where it is being sent?

14        A.   I don't understand how teleprinters work.  I don't understand

15     these telegram/telegraph procedures.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

18     document that was sent by Avdo Palic into evidence so that we can move to

19     the next question in order not to waste any more time.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber would like to ask the witness:  Are

23     you familiar with this celebration, the second celebration -- second

24     anniversary celebration of this 1st Zepa Brigade?  Do you recall anything

25     about that?

Page 9973

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a celebration, but it

 2     wasn't any kind of military fęte.  It was just a traditional celebration

 3     that is held every year.  It usually took place in September.  You would

 4     have some horse races, some sports competitions, soccer, and things like

 5     that.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asking you about the first sentence, that on

 7     the 17th -- the 27th of January, 1995, the 1st Zepa Brigade will be

 8     celebrating its second anniversary; do you know anything about that?  You

 9     were now referring to celebrations in September.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.  I don't know about

11     this date.  I don't know of any celebration being held then.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you may ask further questions to the

13     content of this document, otherwise we -- at the moment we don't see a

14     connection or we have some doubt if there is -- if this is the right

15     witness to comment on this document.  Perhaps you can establish some more

16     by -- of the content by asking additional questions.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   You answered a little bit earlier that your birth place, which is

20     mentioned here but it was redacted from the transcript, and can you

21     please tell us the unit from that birth place of yours that is referred

22     to in the telegram went into the composition of the Zepa Brigade as

23     Avdo Palic says in this telegram here?

24        A.   Sir, I really don't know.  I wasn't in the army at that time.

25     This is why I don't know anything about this data here.

Page 9974

 1        Q.   I know that you don't know, but was the Zepa Brigade formed on

 2     the 27th of January, 1993, as Mr. Palic says?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Well, I've already told you that I don't know.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I don't want to waste any more time on this

 5     because you don't know anything about that, so let it be like that.

 6     Well, let's go on.  We don't have any more time, so let's go on with the

 7     questions.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D364, please.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is a document by Sead Delic, talking about successful

11     sabotage actions by the Zepa Brigade against the Army of

12     Republika Srpska.  Yes, we can see the document now.  This is the brigade

13     commander, Sead Delic; he was the commander of the Tuzla Corps.  He sent

14     this to the command of the 28th Division, which was in Srebrenica, and to

15     the command of the 285th Light Infantry Brigade.  This was sent on the

16     28th of June.  This was a full month before you actually left Zepa.  He

17     says the following, I quote.  Paragraph 1:

18             "I congratulate you on successfully carried-out combat whereby

19     you have significantly contributed to the more successful execution of

20     the operation to unblock Sarajevo and have inflicted heavy losses on the

21     aggressor forces in the fight for the final liberation of the Republic of

22     Bosnia and Herzegovina and the elimination of Serbo-Montenegrin Fascism."

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at paragraph 3.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Which states:

Page 9975

 1             "Due to problems with the entry of the convoy to Zepa and

 2     Srebrenica, it is important at this point in time to have developed

 3     combat plans but to wait for more favourable time because of the

 4     difficult situation with food for the inhabitants and members of the

 5     B&H army and the MUP for further combat actions outside of the Srebrenica

 6     and Zepa zones."

 7             My question to you is this:  Did the corps commander, Sead Delic,

 8     here congratulate the forces for the successful execution of operations

 9     and/or eliminating Serbo-Montenegrin Fascism?

10        A.   I don't know.

11        Q.   Do you know if the humanitarian aid convoys were ever halted

12     during combat between the Muslim and the Serbian armies in the enclaves?

13     Thank you.

14        A.   Yes, before the fall of Zepa, there was a break in the

15     humanitarian aids; that's certain.

16        Q.   And do you know, was aid always suspended when there was combat?

17        A.   There were combat operations carried out only by the Serbian

18     forces, not from the inside.  But there were frequent suspensions of

19     humanitarian aid before the fall.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did Commander Delic here say that he was suspending

21     further combat operations because of the people's need for humanitarian

22     aid as well as the need of members of the Bosnian MUP?  This is in line 3

23     of paragraph 3.

24             If you don't want to, you don't have to answer.  I can ask my

25     next question, because I don't have time.

Page 9976

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you should give the witness the

 2     opportunity to answer.  He was just starting to answer your question, if

 3     he is able to do that.  He didn't show any sign not to want to answer.  I

 4     would like to receive the answer of the witness.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know how to

 6     phrase what I have to say.  I've read the paragraph and this has nothing

 7     to do with anything.  This is the first time that I'm seeing this

 8     document and the first time that I've heard about this.  I don't know how

 9     to phrase what I have to say.  I can just read out what it says in the

10     document.  I have no comment to make.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

12             Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  And, Mr. President, we've seen this again and again.

14     The question that was asked was:

15             "Did Commander Delic here say that he was suspending further

16     combat operations because of the people's need for humanitarian aid," and

17     so on and so forth.

18             It's a question that's asking the witness simply to confirm

19     what's on the document.  How can the witness be expected to say anything

20     more than, Yes, that's what I see.  We have no problems, again, with

21     General Tolimir asking substantive questions about what this witness's

22     knowledge is about the topics in the document, but to simply ask him to

23     confirm the plain language of the document doesn't get us anywhere.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Tolimir, carry on, please, but focus on those areas the

Page 9977

 1     witness can testify about.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Did you hand out humanitarian aid in the place where you lived

 5     and stayed in the Zepa enclave?

 6        A.   Yes.  In my parents' village.  I did hand out humanitarian aid

 7     there.

 8        Q.   And was humanitarian aid arriving during combat operations around

 9     the enclave and inside the enclave itself?

10        A.   No.  It was suspended about a month before combat operations

11     against the enclave began.

12              THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this with

13     the leave of the Chamber, otherwise I would like to move on, because I

14     don't have much time.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber is not in the position to admit this

17     document.  The witness stated very clearly that he is not able to comment

18     on the content of this document.  Please carry on.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Could we

20     now have D103.  And while we are waiting, I would like to remind the

21     witness of what he said on page 9866, line 13, of the transcript.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You said, and I quote, that you participate -- that you were a

24     member of the army immediately before the fall of Zepa.  The question was

25     whether at that time all the men were defending the enclave.

Page 9978

 1        A.   Yes, we all we were.  We all went.  Nobody called anybody.  We

 2     all went to the front lines.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And now we can see the document, D103.  We can see

 4     that it was written by the War Presidency on the 15th of July, 1995, in

 5     Zepa.  And at the time, the president of the War Presidency was

 6     Mehmed Hajric and he signed on this telegram.  It is a telegram that he

 7     sent, and it says, and I quote; line 11 says:

 8             "All human and materiel resources have been made available for

 9     defence purposes.  People with work obligation in the civilian protection

10     have been made available to the 285th Brigade in Zepa."

11             Further on, it says:

12             "A widespread collection of good quality food for the soldiers,

13     as well as blankets, foam padding, et cetera, has been organised.  The

14     morale of the soldiers is high."

15             This is a report by the War Presidency that he sent to Sarajevo,

16     to the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

17     then-President Alija Izetbegovic.

18             Now, my question is the following:  This description of events

19     that Hajric sends to Izetbegovic, can you tell us if it matches the

20     situation in the field as you experienced it?

21        A.   No, it's not even close, because there was a lot of fear.  People

22     had arrived who survived Kravica and Cerska and the break-through towards

23     Tuzla and Srebrenica and they had come to Luke and Zepa and they were

24     telling us about what the situation was like.  It was far more dangerous

25     than what this says.  We were all at the lines because the attacks were

Page 9979

 1     very fierce and there was nobody in the village.  You wouldn't dare be

 2     there the shelling was so heavy.  I went one day to pick up some flour

 3     that I had and I saw cattle that had died around the houses, so I just

 4     grabbed the flour.  I was so frightened.  There was so much panic because

 5     everything was quiet, everything was deserted.  So I tried to flee as

 6     fast as I could up to the line, up to where the lines were.  The people

 7     were panicked.

 8        Q.   Could you please tell us who the commander was at that line where

 9     you had returned from the village?

10        A.   Believe me, I don't know who the commander was.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With the leave of the Chamber, I

13     would like to tender this document or I would like to move on.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is already an exhibit.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16             Could we please have Exhibit D54 in e-court, please.  Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   And while we're waiting for it, I will tell you that this is a

19     document by Alija Izetbegovic to Mehmed Hajric dated the

20     19th of July, 1995.  Alija Izetbegovic says the following, and now I will

21     read paragraph 3 of the document sent by Izetbegovic to Hajric.  Please

22     have a look and I will read it.  Alija says, and I quote:

23             "My plan:  Move out as many civilians as possible, all if

24     possible.  The troops stay on and continue to resist.  We will do all to

25     help you by supplying materiel and technical equipment, volunteers, and

Page 9980

 1     offensive action in your direction (I believe this is starting today).

 2     If we do not succeed in this, you try to push on, on those roads (you

 3     know which) but now without the burden of women and children who would in

 4     the meantime be taken out."

 5             Thank you.  My question is the following:  Was this what the

 6     soldiers of the BH army did?  Did they do what Izetbegovic wanted them to

 7     do?

 8        A.   He didn't demand anything of anyone, but I believe that they did

 9     try to find the free territory somehow.  I ended up in Serbia and my goal

10     had been to get to Macedonia, to free territory there.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Well, let's see what you did.  You brought your

12     family to have them evacuated; can you tell us when that was?

13        A.   I believe it was around the 25th.  The 25th.

14        Q.   When did you try to save your own life and when did you flee to

15     Serbia across the Drina River?

16        A.   On the second or third day.  I'm not sure about the days exactly

17     but very soon after that.  I ran into that school friend of mine.  It was

18     two or three days later.  I believe I was captured on the 2nd, on the

19     2nd of August.  I'm not sure about the date.  It was very chaotic.  It

20     would be difficult to remember the exact date.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you decide to hand over your wife and your

22     children to the Serbian army and to then continue on looking for free

23     territory?

24        A.   Not the Serbian army.  I was hoping that that would be the ICRC

25     and the UNHCR, that they would be transported in UNHCR trucks.  They

Page 9981

 1     weren't lucky.  They went through a lot of torture and a lot of fear.

 2     They were being transported by the Chetniks.  And I set off hoping that I

 3     would reach Macedonia through Serbia unnoticed.

 4        Q.   Did all the soldiers in the Zepa Brigade act as Alija Izetbegovic

 5     asked them?  Did they send their women and children to the federation and

 6     did they stay on to fight or to try to get to the free territory any way

 7     they knew?

 8        A.   What kind of combat are you talking about?  A guard who was

 9     there, a guard in Serbia, told me that there were 15.000 soldiers in

10     Zepa.  He told me that in Serbia.  You couldn't even think about doing

11     something like that.  All you thought about was getting to the free

12     territory, getting away from that hell.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Your -- this is the second time that you're telling

14     us about something that somebody told you.  Now, whether that was the

15     truth or whether you saw a soldier from Serbia or captured him or killed

16     him during the combat in Zepa.  Thank you.

17        A.   Yes, in Stublic.  There was a reconnaissance group going and I

18     had just arrived to replace the man who was before me.  I asked, Who's up

19     there?  And the reply was, Krusevac.  So he started walking.  He thought

20     that it was Krusevac in Serbia.  And there's Krusev Do, which is a part

21     of Luke municipality.  At one point I saw that it was a Chetnik uniform;

22     it was a uniform of the Yugoslav Army.  And then I ran.  He didn't shoot,

23     and I was either scared or I didn't think I was skillful enough, but I'm

24     certain of this.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Were your positions facing Serbia or Bosnia?  Thank

Page 9982

 1     you.

 2        A.   They were facing the Chetniks in Bosnia.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  At the last stand on the Drina River, were you

 4     guarding -- were you defending from Serbia or were you defending from the

 5     Serbs in Bosnia?

 6        A.   I was in town on duty service one day without a weapon, because

 7     they had gone into Tegare village and they torched a blind woman in her

 8     house.  This is quite an inaccessible terrain.  Specialist army members

 9     might be able to get through there, and I was on guard duty there one

10     day, unarmed.

11        Q.   Were you armed on that line where you were?

12        A.   On Stublic, yes.  I took the rifle from the person that I

13     replaced there.  On the other hand, when I was in town for one day, I did

14     not have a rifle.  There were two of us and both of us did not have a

15     rifle.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have P735 in e-court.

18     P735, please.  I'm interested in item 8.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   That's the agreement signed between the representatives of the

21     military and the authorities in Zepa, commander of the UNPROFOR for Zepa,

22     General Ratko Mladic, and commander of a brigade.  I'm going to quote

23     item number 8:

24             "All population of military age in Zepa should be registered and

25     accommodated in a holding centre which is to be under the control of the

Page 9983

 1     ICRC until the release of all captive VRS members and other Serbs who are

 2     in prisons in the territory controlled by the army under the command of

 3     Rasim Delic."

 4             So this is the agreement signed on the 24th of July, 1995.  The

 5     agreement reached by the representatives of the VRS and the president of

 6     the Executive Board of the Zepa municipality Hamdija Torlak.  My question

 7     is:  Were all able-bodied persons in Zepa under obligation to register

 8     with the ICRC and were they supposed to be exchanged for the captured

 9     members of the VRS?

10        A.   Sir, UNPROFOR had a check-point at Stublic.  They went to Zepa

11     and left the population behind.  Now, I see that some sort of agreement

12     was indeed signed, but I have to say that if people remained there to

13     wait and see what was going to happen to them, many of them would have

14     perished.  You have to know that many of them were tortured and went

15     through many things.  There was a private camp in Rogatica.

16        Q.   Were you among the able-bodied men in Zepa at the moment when

17     this was signed by Hamdija Torlak?

18        A.   For you, I would be able-bodied, because for you even people of

19     14 years of age and 80 years of age were able-bodied.  Whoever was found

20     to be there was able-bodied.

21        Q.   Did you carry a weapon at Stublic and were you able to fire, or

22     did you just carry it around for no particular purpose?

23        A.   Yeah, right, I carried it around for no particular purpose.

24        Q.   Did the Muslim army in Zepa turn their back on the agreement

25     signed on the 24th of July?  Did they actually betray the Serbian side

Page 9984

 1     after they had moved all the civilians to the territory of the

 2     federation?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sorry, I had to cut off the microphone for a

 4     moment.  Don't worry about that.  We want to have your full answer on the

 5     record.  And now, please, your answer.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not renege.  There were

 7     14 people who were -- who, in the end, ended up in this some sort of a

 8     collection centre, which was actually a camp.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you.  You haven't really answered my question, but I'm

11     moving on.  Did you act contrary to this agreement because you left Zepa

12     after your family left for the federation?

13        A.   I did manage to flee, but my journey was exceedingly difficult.

14     Maybe this agreement could have been enforced if it was enforced in a

15     humane way, but there were many people in Srebrenica with a similar

16     agreement in their hand, in Srebrenica, and they were all killed.  Also

17     in 1992 in Bratunac, they signed a statement of loyalty and they would be

18     taken away on the spot, imprisoned and killed.  So this agreement is just

19     an agreement, while acts are acts.

20        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I stopped you now, Mr. Tolimir, because you were

22     overlapping again.  Please pause between question and answer.

23             Mr. Thayer.

24             MR. THAYER:  And if I could just take us back a little bit.

25     The -- there's a question at page 18, line 5, and it's about to disappear

Page 9985

 1     off our LiveNote.  The answer at line 6, as I heard it, the question was:

 2             "Did you carry a weapon at Stublic and were you able to fire, or

 3     did you just carry it around for no particular purpose?"

 4             The answer, as I heard it interpreted, was:

 5             "Yeah, right, I carried it around for no particular purpose."

 6             I think my understanding is that was translating an idiomatic

 7     phrase, whatever it was, that is not reflected in the transcript as it

 8     appears, and I just want to make sure we've got an accurate answer.

 9     Because the way it reads on the cold transcript is different from what I

10     understood the answer was.  So before we go too much further afield from

11     that, if we could have some clarification, I think that would be helpful.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, you know that every communication in

13     the courtroom is taped and the transcript will be checked later.  There

14     are some parts missing, especially if the speakers are overlapping.  That

15     happens.  You can't catch everything.  And therefore I think we have now

16     your concern on the screen.  I heard different from what is to be read on

17     the record.

18             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I'm only standing because it changes,

19     potentially, the nature of the meaning of the answer.  And that's the

20     only reason I'm standing, to deal with it now, while we can, and not

21     waste, you know, time, having to bring the witness back on redirect to

22     deal with it.  That's my only point.  It's -- I'm not trying to quibble

23     over minor words.  It's something that I thought might potentially change

24     the meaning of the answer, if you read it the way it is.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think your position is clear and we have that

Page 9986

 1     on the record.

 2             Now, Mr. Gajic.

 3             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour - my greetings to

 4     everybody first - I'll be brief.  I think that the interpreters

 5     interpreted the words of the witness correctly, as far as it was

 6     possible, because the word used in Serbian, "onako," means "without a

 7     particular purpose, without a particular goal."

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will request those who are responsible for

 9     checking the record to listen to the tapes in all languages and to

10     clarify which is the right interpretation and recording.

11             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you

13     Mr. Thayer.  Thank you, Mr. Gajic.

14             Can we now have in e-court P736.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   It's a decision by the War Presidency of Zepa dated the

17     27th of July, 1995.  It is signed by Rajko Kosic [phoen],

18     General Ratko Mladic, Hamdija Torlak, Mehmed Hajric, and Amir Imamovic,

19     as members of the War Presidency.

20             Are you aware of the fact that the members of the War Presidency

21     made this decision on the 27th?  And I quote the first paragraph:

22             "All able-bodied men from 18 to 55 years of age shall surrender

23     their weapons to the representatives of the Army of Republika Srpska and

24     to the representatives of UNPROFOR at the UNPROFOR base in Zepa.  All

25     able-bodied men shall be registered by the ICRC and shall be guarded by

Page 9987

 1     the forces of the VRS in the presence of UNPROFOR in Zepa until an

 2     agreement on exchange can be reached."

 3             Were you made aware of the fact that the War Presidency made such

 4     a decision on the 27th of July, 1995?

 5        A.   I did not know about this.  But Avdo Palic knows best how he was

 6     guarded by the Serbian army.  He ended up dead in the woods.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You always answer my questions with a question of

 8     yours.  So now I have to ask this:  On a number of occasions --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, this is not correct.  The witness

10     didn't ask you anything.  He stated that he doesn't know but perhaps

11     another person.  This is an answer, not a question.  Please carry on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, on a number of occasions during this interrogation you

15     said that some people were stopped at the very border-line when they were

16     attempting to reach the territory of the federation, even mentioned a

17     number; do you remember that?

18        A.   I heard they were supposed to come out.  I heard that when I was

19     in the camp.  It was a group of 70 people.  They were somewhere near

20     Olovo.  Not a single one among them survived.  I heard that four people

21     went towards Gorazde.  They have all disappeared as well, which means

22     that they have been killed.  Those four people from my village, I know

23     them.  I know one of them.  His son was ill; he was 16 or 17 years old.

24     He was transporting him on a horse.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Are you talking about the break-through from

Page 9988

 1     Srebrenica or are you talking about the evacuation?

 2        A.   What kind of break-through are you talking about?  I don't know

 3     what you are asking me about.

 4        Q.   My question is as follows; I'm going to repeat it:  Are you aware

 5     of the fact that on the 27th of July, 1995, the War Presidency made a

 6     decision that I just quoted?  Can you answer that?

 7        A.   I don't know that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the War Presidency requested the VRS

 9     to sign this decision and to take it to the Zepa mountain and read it out

10     loud to the soldiers who were there?

11        A.   I don't know that.

12        Q.   Do you know that this decision was read out to the soldiers and

13     that the soldiers refused to disarm in accordance with this decision?

14        A.   I don't know that.

15        Q.   Do you know that Mr. Torlak testified here about this and he said

16     that Mr. Mehmed Hajric personally took this decision to read it out to

17     the soldiers?

18        A.   No, I know nothing about this decision or about reading out of

19     this decision.  But I believe that even if they read it out, nobody would

20     be dare to go and surrender alive to the Chetniks.  I'm absolutely sure

21     about that.  I now speak in my personal name.  If I knew about this, I

22     certainly wouldn't go to surrender.  No, not alive.  No, I'm one million

23     per cent sure.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that on this very day, the 27th of July,

25     when Mr. Hajric returned from the Zepa mountain and said that the

Page 9989

 1     soldiers refused to disarm, that the commander stopped the evacuation and

 2     the last convoy which also was carrying those people that you said were

 3     detained later on?

 4        A.   I don't know that.  I was not in Zepa at the time.  It was

 5     Chetniks who were in Zepa at that time.  They even captured members of

 6     UNPROFOR.  UNPROFOR was not allowed to walk around freely.

 7        Q.   Do you remember that yesterday during your testimony you said

 8     that some people were returned to the detention in Rogatica?

 9        A.   I remember that.  14 people from Luke were returned.  I don't

10     know about others, maybe there were more of them, but 14 people from Luke

11     were in the camp in Rogatica.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know from where they were brought to Rogatica?

13        A.   They were taken off a convoy, as far as I know.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did they reach the border with the federation before

15     they were taken off the convoy?

16        A.   I don't know that.

17        Q.   Do you know that they were taken off the convoy because of the

18     fact that the commander of the whole operation stopped the evacuation

19     because the Muslims did not observe the agreement?

20        A.   I don't know why you took them off, but you took them off.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

22             MR. THAYER:  Just some clarification.  This is the second

23     question that's referred to the commander and just so we know to whom

24     General Tolimir is referring in that question.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This relates to your question, Mr. Tolimir,

Page 9990

 1     page 23, line 22.  Perhaps you can put the question to the witness and

 2     mention the name of the commander.  It would help us better understand

 3     it.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you know that the commander of the operation General Krstic

 7     ordered the evacuation to be stopped because the Muslims breached the

 8     agreement by refusing to disarm?

 9        A.   I do not know about that.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have D111, page 25.

12     Thank you.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This is a confidential exhibit and should not be

14     broadcast.  Thank you.

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You have to redact this part.  And if you

Page 9991

 1     continue in that way, we should go into private session.

 2             Private.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9992











11 Pages 9992-10003 redacted. Private session.
















Page 10004

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, this concludes your examination in this

12     trial.  The Chamber would like to thank you for your attendance here in

13     the courtroom, that you stayed such a long time and were able to provide

14     us with your knowledge.  Thank you again, and we wish you a safe journey

15     back.  And all the best for your future.  And I'm so sorry that sometimes

16     there were some confusions in the courtroom.  That happens, and we have

17     to make sure that we have a good record.  Thank you very much again.

18             We have to adjourn for our second break, and we will resume, to

19     save time, quarter past 4.00.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,

25     everyone.  One quick issue.  The last exhibit Mr. Thayer was dealing

Page 10005

 1     with, P00167, that list, it was an ICMP list, we didn't want to do it

 2     before the witness, but I've spoken to Mr. Gajic and he agreed that just

 3     for your knowledge that indicated -- or that record from those two people

 4     was surface remains.  We didn't want you -- to suggest that it was a mass

 5     grave.  Those two people were surface remains found in that greater Zepa

 6     area.  Just before that bit gets ...

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And the next witness is ready.  I really hope I

 9     can do this in much less than two hours.  I really want to try to get her

10     done tonight for many reasons, as I know the Court does.  She suffered a

11     lot and it may be difficult, but she's a pretty good witness and I hope

12     to be able to get it through.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  She is a viva voce witness; is that correct?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  And I had one exhibit but

15     it's a picture of her husband and I don't think I'm going to show that to

16     her.  So I don't expect any exhibits.  I'll just want her to tell her

17     story.  And I've told her that while we'll start at her home in 1992, to

18     try to get to 1995 relatively quickly.  So you will hear a little 1992

19     but we will -- we'll get to 1995 fairly quickly.  And I hope to get her

20     done hopefully within an hour, although it's really impossible.  I may

21     have to interrupt her at times, but I think we'll be fine.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I read the witness summary, which is a very short

23     one, carefully.  So the Chamber is aware for which part of the whole

24     story she is called.

25             Mr. Tolimir.  Mr. Tolimir, yes, you have the floor.

Page 10006

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Hello to

 2     Mr. McCloskey and everybody else in the courtroom once again.  I would

 3     just like to say for the record, where were these surface remains found?

 4     At what location?  Was this in Zepa or was this at some other location?

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not the moment to deal with this problem.

 7     I understand this question but there will be a time we can deal with

 8     that.

 9             The witness should be brought in, please.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Ms. Malagic.  Welcome to the

12     Tribunal, to the courtroom.  Would you please read aloud --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please read aloud the information on

15     the card which is shown to you now.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  MIRSADA MALAGIC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

21     yourself comfortable.  Perhaps the Court Usher can assist you with the

22     earphones.  I hope everything is fine.  If there are problems, please let

23     us know.

24             Mr. McCloskey has questions for you.

25             Mr. McCloskey.

Page 10007

 1                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 2        Q.   Good afternoon, Mrs. Malagic.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   And welcome back to the Tribunal.  I think it's your first time

 5     back since the Krstic case in 2000?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you just give us your year of birth.

 8        A.   1959.

 9        Q.   And where were you born?

10        A.   In Peciste, Srebrenica municipality.

11        Q.   And where did you grow up?

12        A.   Also in Peciste, Srebrenica municipality.  Until I went to

13     school, and then I spent four years in Zvornik in school.  The rest of

14     the time I spent there.  Until 1978 or 1979 when I moved to Voljavica,

15     Bratunac municipality, that's where we built a family home, my husband

16     and I built a family home.

17        Q.   Okay.  And Peciste, is that a little village right next to the

18     village of a now famous Potocari?

19        A.   Yes.  It's 1 kilometre from Potocari.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now, your family home, can you tell us, were you living in

21     that home that you and your husband built right before the war started in

22     1992?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And can you tell us, you said the Bratunac municipality, can you

25     tell us, you know, where?

Page 10008

 1        A.   Yes, it's a place that's 3 kilometres away from Bratunac.  It's

 2     called Voljavica, and it's in Bratunac municipality.  In the Drina

 3     Valley, along the Drina.

 4        Q.   And how close was your house to the Drina, the beautiful

 5     Drina River?

 6        A.   I can't tell you exactly metres, but there was one field that

 7     separated us.  You walked down and then the Drina was right there, very

 8     close by.

 9        Q.   And what did your husband do before the war?

10        A.   He worked in the zinc mine.  He was an accountant.

11        Q.   And can you tell us who lived in that family house with you

12     before the war?  You, your husband, any children?

13        A.   Yes.  Before the war, my husband and I and our three children:

14     Adnan, Admir, and --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the third name.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We lived there until May of 1992

17     when we had to leave our home.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   Can you say your three children's name again.  They didn't catch

20     it.

21        A.   Yes.  Elvir Malagic, born in 1973; Admir, born in 1979; and

22     Adnan, born in 1984.

23        Q.   And just -- you mentioned that you had to leave your -- that

24     family home.  And when did you leave the family home next to the Drina?

25        A.   On the 12th of May, 1992, at 7.30 in the evening.  At 7.30 p.m.,

Page 10009

 1     that's when we officially left the home.  And we never returned there.

 2        Q.   And why did you leave the home?

 3        A.   We left because we were given an ultimatum.  Voljavica village

 4     was in the same local commune as Pobrdje which is also in Bratunac

 5     municipality, and presidents of the local commune informed us of the

 6     situation and of what was happening those days.

 7             In the first days of May and the last days of April, we were no

 8     longer working.  There was a lot of talk about leaving, a lot of talk

 9     about the war.  Villages in Bratunac were being torched.  And Bratunac

10     was seized by soldiers; Novi Sad Corps members arrived in their APCs.

11     The Sasa mine where we used to work was also occupied.  There were

12     Serbian soldiers there.  I don't know to whom they belonged.  So we

13     stayed in the village and we couldn't leave.

14             Bratunac was an option, but Serbian soldiers were there.  There

15     was the mine where, again, there were Serbian soldiers.  There was the

16     Drina, which was the border with Serbia, so we couldn't get across.  And

17     then we were given an ultimatum that we all had to go out in the streets,

18     and this ultimatum was given by the leaders of the local commune.  They

19     told us that we could no longer live there, no longer stay there, and

20     they said that we would be transported to another territory.  People were

21     afraid because of everything that we had seen until then and during those

22     days.  Some people decided to surrender and go out into the streets and

23     others decided to flee into the nearby woods.  I and my family was one of

24     those who were in the woods because we didn't dare surrender.

25        Q.   The leaders of the local commune, were those Serb leaders or

Page 10010

 1     Muslim leaders that gave this ultimatum?

 2        A.   They were Serbs.

 3        Q.   And you mentioned the Novi Sad Corps; is that an army corps from

 4     across the river in Serbia?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So is it fair to say that you and the family you've

 7     described went out into the woods, as you've described, and you finally

 8     made your way to Srebrenica, and is that true?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   All right.  And were you able to find a roof to live under in

11     Srebrenica beginning in -- sometime in 1992?

12        A.   Yes.  At that time, 18 days after we had set off from home and

13     when we reached Srebrenica through the woods, all the apartments had been

14     abandoned.  Srebrenica was deserted.  Private homes had been torched,

15     looted.  There was nobody there.  All the apartments were unlocked.  They

16     had all been searched.  I don't know who did this, but all the apartments

17     were unlocked.  So you could enter into any apartment you wanted to

18     without knowing whose place it was, and that's where we found

19     accommodation for a few days because one of my sons was ill.  He had a

20     temperature, so we thought we would spend the night there.

21             Three days later, I managed to talk to my brothers.  I found out

22     that they were alive.  So we went to Potocari, to their family home.

23        Q.   And did you have to move from Potocari back to Srebrenica at some

24     point?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10011

 1        Q.   And can you briefly explain that.

 2        A.   In all of -- throughout 1992, we were in Potocari.  There was a

 3     lot of shelling, and we stayed there as long as the house remained

 4     standing.  And it was sort of habitable.  But when it became inhabitable,

 5     we moved to Srebrenica.  We found accommodation in a house, in a room,

 6     and that's where I was with my husband and my children.

 7        Q.   What caused your house, your brother's house, in Potocari to

 8     become not habitable?

 9        A.   It was completely destroyed.  It was destroyed by a larger

10     calibre shell.  It was completely destroyed.  It had fallen down.  It

11     became uninhabitable.  So they had to leave as well, my brothers, and

12     come to Srebrenica.

13        Q.   All right.  Now, and for the purpose of this trial and your

14     testimony, I am going to now fast forward over those very difficult years

15     of 1992, 1993, and 1994 and ask you, Were you living in Srebrenica in

16     July 1995 with your family?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And can you tell us who was living in -- who you were living

19     together with and their ages, so we now know the ages of your family, as

20     of July 1995?  As best you can recall.

21        A.   Yes.  I lived with my family, who I mentioned a moment ago, and

22     my brothers lived in the same apartment with us.  My older brother,

23     Sadik Salihovic, was born in 1952.  And Mirsad Salihovic, the younger

24     one, was born in 1961.  We were all together.

25        Q.   And how old was your husband then?

Page 10012

 1        A.   He was 45 years old.

 2        Q.   And can you tell us how old your three sons each were in

 3     July 1995?

 4        A.   The oldest one, Elvir Malagic, was 19 years old.  Admir Malagic

 5     was 15 years old -- 15 years and five months old, and

 6     Amir [as interpreted] was 11 years old.

 7        Q.   And in July were you pregnant?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And did you eventually have a healthy baby daughter?

10        A.   Yes.  On the 21st of January, 1996, in Tuzla.

11        Q.   All right.  And early in July of 1995, did you feel you had --

12     your family had to leave home again?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And can you explain why.

15        A.   Yes.  At the very end of June, and early July especially, there

16     was complete chaos in Srebrenica among the people.  Some people were

17     trying to get across to the free territory.  They self-organised into

18     groups.  They organised into arbitrary groups.  There were all kinds of

19     rumours about how Srebrenica was going to fall, how we all had to leave.

20     People didn't know the real truth.  They were uninformed.  And there was

21     talk among the people that the helicopters were taking people for further

22     education [as interpreted].

23             Simple people, such as my family, my brothers and I, could tell

24     that something was happening and that we would have to leave Srebrenica,

25     that we would go somewhere.  The only thing we didn't know, and we didn't

Page 10013

 1     believe that this would happen in the way that it happened in the end,

 2     that so many people would be killed.  We thought that there would be a

 3     civilised fashion, that people would be transported in a civilised

 4     fashion.  If necessary there would be an exchange of territories.  I

 5     don't know what others were planning, but the simple folk didn't know

 6     about that.

 7             People were panicked.  They were wondering where to go.  People

 8     walked into ambushes, people got killed.  Some people just went missing,

 9     and some actually managed to get across.  Everybody tried to find their

10     own way.  My family, my brothers, my husband, my children, and I didn't

11     go anywhere until we had to leave Srebrenica.

12             I was in Potocari one day, and I can't remember what date it was.

13     It was in early July, before the 11th.  And we were walking, and about

14     3 kilometres from the firing range we could hear the first shells.  All

15     of a sudden my legs went numb because we hadn't had any shells in

16     Srebrenica, at least not after UNPROFOR had entered.  I was very

17     frightened.

18             We knew how things looked in 1992 and what combat operations

19     looked like, so we were afraid.  On the 10th of July, the 9th or the

20     10th of July, I believe it was, there were -- there was a lot of

21     shelling.  I don't know how many shells a day, but I know that shells

22     fell on the hamlets.  You know that there were thousands of people in

23     Srebrenica, so none of these shells could miss.  They had to kill or

24     wound somebody.

25             The hospital was full of wounded again.  Again there was chaos.

Page 10014

 1     We didn't know where to go, we didn't know what to do, we didn't know

 2     what was going on, we had no information, and so on.  It was on the

 3     10th of July that we went to the UNPROFOR base again because people

 4     wanted to get some information on what was going on, and then the first

 5     UNPROFOR check-point was abandoned in Ljubisavici; it's up in

 6     Zeleni Jadar.  UNPROFOR sent us back.  The soldiers told us that nothing

 7     was happening and that we could go back to our apartments where we were

 8     in Srebrenica, so we did that and we spent the night there.  Actually,

 9     nobody really slept that evening.  We were trying to see what to do and

10     where to go.  We were talking amongst ourselves.

11             The next morning, on the 11th of July, we were at home.  We had

12     packed some bread.  We were unable to sleep.  We just took some food for

13     the children.  My younger brother went to Potocari because we had a plot

14     of land where we managed to sow some things, and he went to get us some

15     potatoes and other food that was available there.  We never managed to

16     say good-bye.

17             My brother, when he left the building, came back and said, You

18     should all leave; the Serbian soldiers are at the former police station

19     in Srebrenica.  So we had to leave.  And we all set off together.  My

20     father-in-law was with us and we started walking towards UNPROFOR.  The

21     former weaving plant in Srebrenica was the first UNPROFOR station.  We

22     passed --

23        Q.   I'm sorry, let me interrupt you.  And it may be self-explanatory,

24     but why would the presence of Serb soldiers nearby cause you to want to

25     leave your home?

Page 10015

 1        A.   Because we didn't expect anything good from them.  We remembered

 2     how we left our home in 1992 in Voljavica.  There were killings that took

 3     place close to my house.  People were taken away.  People experienced

 4     suffering in Bratunac, and we saw this.  My relatives had suffered in --

 5     at the stadium in Bratunac.  They were taken away from their families,

 6     and they're still missing to this day.

 7             In order to avoid getting into the same situation, we sought

 8     protection from UNPROFOR.  There were so many shells that we didn't

 9     believe that we wouldn't get arrested, that we wouldn't be killed.

10             The UNPROFOR soldiers were our last refuge, the Dutch soldiers.

11     That's why we walked to their base.

12        Q.   You mentioned that in Bratunac they were taken from their

13     families.  Can you describe what knowledge you had about that incident

14     which, I believe, was in 1992 at Bratunac?  What did you learn about that

15     incident that caused you to be afraid in 1995?

16        A.   Yes.  In early May 1992, my husband had two sisters.  One was

17     living in Bratunac and the other one 2 kilometres away towards Kravica;

18     that's where she had a family home.  Those days, my sister-in-law's house

19     was torched and the whole Hrnici settlement.  Some Serbian soldiers had

20     arrived.  They didn't arrest people, they just through some explosive

21     devices.  I don't know whether they were hand-held rocket launchers

22     called Zoljas; I'm not an expert in this.  But either way, the houses

23     were on fire.  You can't see the village from our village but in the

24     evening the sky was on fire so you could see the houses burning.

25             The next day, the next village you can see is Mihajlevici and

Page 10016

 1     then that village was torched.  From the hill down to the road, they were

 2     torching everything.  All the houses were on fire.  Then the village of

 3     Suha, again, which we could see from our own home, was also torched; it

 4     was also in flames.  They passed by our houses.  They killed some men in

 5     Ledina, near Bjelovac, on the bridge between my house and my aunt's

 6     house, two men.  I assume they started running from that vehicle, and

 7     they started chasing them for some 20 metres and then they shot them.

 8     They were killed next to our house.  This was all in 1992 before the 12th

 9     of May.

10        Q.   Was there something that happened in Bratunac - you mentioned

11     that people were taken away - something that happened in Bratunac around

12     the soccer stadium that you were aware of in 1995?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you very briefly describe what you knew of that.

15        A.   All men from Suha, from Mihajlevic, and from Bratunac, and the

16     whole families, were taken to the stadium in Bratunac.  My sister-in-law,

17     her children, my other sister-in-law, they were all taken.  And they told

18     me about it, they survived it.  There was another relative of mine, and

19     his family as well, they were all taken to the stadium in Bratunac.  They

20     would separate them at the gate.  They would let the women go and

21     transport them towards Tuzla, while the men were taken to the Vuk

22     Karadzic school.  They were tortured there.

23             Among others, one son of my aunt and his two sons were there in

24     that school, Vuk Karadzic school.  I know that for sure.  When we left

25     our home, we could watch the television.  Those who know what kind of

Page 10017

 1     television the Serbian television is will know why we watched the other

 2     television, UTEL [phoen], while there was still electricity available.

 3     So I could see this relative of mine on the television.  I don't know who

 4     put them on television, but he was telling what he experienced in that

 5     school in Bratunac.  He is still alive and he can easily give a statement

 6     about it.  His son was killed later on in Tuzla.  They were exchanged in

 7     Vlasenica.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, let's go back to Srebrenica where you left off.

 9     It's July 11th and you've just made a decision; where do you go?

10        A.   Yes, we all left Srebrenica then.  Everybody who was in town left

11     Srebrenica town and went towards the UNPROFOR base.  The UNPROFOR

12     soldiers would not let us pass through towards Potocari at the beginning.

13     When we were all there, gathered at that spot, it was a huge mass of

14     people.  They didn't know where to go.

15        Q.   Let me interrupt.  There's -- we know all know there's a couple

16     of UNPROFOR bases.  Where is this large gathering of people that you're

17     talking about now?

18        A.   It's 1 kilometre from the centre of Srebrenica in the direction

19     of Potocari.  It's a former weaving plant.  That was the first UNPROFOR

20     base.  It had a sign, UN, and you could still see it now.  So that was

21     our first stop.

22        Q.   And describe to us what happened there, what was going on now,

23     again, as best as you can recall, but ...

24        A.   My older brother, my husband, and my sons decided at that moment,

25     with other able-bodied men, that they could reach Tuzla on foot.  So they

Page 10018

 1     simply went towards the free territory.  They were looking for a way out.

 2     They did not dare to go to Potocari.  They told us women and children and

 3     the infirm to go towards Potocari, telling us that the UNPROFOR was going

 4     to protect us.  They were not able to take the same route.

 5             My younger son was quite young but he was also quite tall and

 6     that was the reason that he went with them.  They went towards the

 7     village of Susnjari.  They separated from others at a gas station in

 8     Srebrenica.  Not only them, but also many other people.  That's when the

 9     shelling started.

10        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us, to your knowledge, why was it that your

11     husband didn't want to go to Potocari to seek protection from the

12     UNPROFOR there?  Why would he choose the woods instead?

13        A.   I think that at that moment he was thinking the same thing that

14     he was thinking in 1992 when we left our house:  He didn't want to

15     surrender to the Serbian authorities and Serbian soldiers.  That's why we

16     went into the woods in the first place.  So then when we separated, that

17     was also the reason.  Many people went towards the woods.  They did not

18     trust that they would be protected in an adequate way.  Because it was

19     that first UNPROFOR check-point that let the Serbian soldiers through to

20     enter Srebrenica.  I'm not saying that they actually let them go, maybe

21     they were simply powerless.  But the fact is that people did not think

22     that UNPROFOR was going to protect them in an adequate way.  While we

23     others, we could not go in the same way because it was a long way and we

24     couldn't walk so far towards the free territory.  That's why we, the

25     others, went to seek protection from UNPROFOR, in their base.  That was

Page 10019

 1     the only reason why they went that way through the forest.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, you left off that you were around the UNPROFOR base

 3     in Srebrenica and you said that's when the shelling started.  Do you

 4     remember roughly what time a day the shelling started at that Srebrenica

 5     UNPROFOR base?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I didn't have a wristwatch.  It was the

 7     11th of July, in the morning.  It was in the morning.  But what time it

 8     was exactly, I'm not sure.  It was morning.  Because later on we spent

 9     maybe another two or three hours in that base, in the compound, and only

10     after that we continued towards Potocari, when we were told that we could

11     go there.  So it may have been around 9.00 or 10.00.  I didn't have a

12     watch, so I cannot tell you precisely.

13        Q.   Can you describe the shelling, where they hit.

14        A.   Shells were landing all around.  There was complete chaos and

15     confusion.  People screamed.  Women with children sought shelter in the

16     nearby buildings.  Shells were landing all around.  There were killed and

17     wounded people.  I was wounded by one such shell.  That was a shell that

18     fell a few metres away from me, within the UNPROFOR compound.  My

19     youngest son was with me and I thought that he was dead.  My

20     father-in-law was also with me and we all fell to the ground.  When we

21     got up, we realised that I was wounded.  They were all very scared.

22             Those who could seek shelter somewhere did that, but it was a

23     complete chaos and confusion, so there were wounded people, lots of

24     blood.  There were so many people there that not a single shell could

25     miss.  As soon as a shell would land, it would land in the middle of a

Page 10020

 1     group of people.  People were everywhere, in the street, on the pavement,

 2     around the buildings, on the gas station, on the road towards the former

 3     road assistance company.

 4             All able-bodied men decided to go into the woods and to go

 5     towards Tuzla to find salvation there, but I think that they were shelled

 6     along their way and there were some -- some of them were killed also

 7     along that way.  They never managed to leave Srebrenica.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And, to be clear, from your family, you and your -- is it

 9     your 11-year-old son Adnan and your father-in-law stayed at the

10     Srebrenica compound; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And can you tell us the name of your father-in-law and his

13     approximate age?

14        A.   Omer Malagic.  He was around 70.  He was born in 1926, so he

15     was 70.

16        Q.   And where were you wounded?

17        A.   I was wounded in my right-hand side of body.  It was my right

18     shoulder blade.  I used to have a pull-over which was then full of blood.

19     I used to keep it for a long time.  It was full of shrapnels.  Luckily

20     none of them hit my head.  It was just my shoulder blade and it was just

21     a superficial wound.

22        Q.   Okay.  You said you were there in Srebrenica for two or three

23     hours.  Where did you finally go and why?

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think that we have to stop at this point in

Page 10021

 1     time.  There is a problem with the record.  Just a minute.

 2                           [Technical difficulty]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sorry for that.  We have to pause for a

 4     moment.  We need a record, and it's not working.

 5             Now it's working again.

 6             Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us why you left the Srebrenica UN compound after the

 9     shelling that you were talking about?

10        A.   Yes.  It was the UNPROFOR soldiers.  We didn't understand their

11     language but they showed us the way what their hands towards Potocari.

12     At that moment we could hear the sound of aeroplanes.  So they were

13     showing us with their hands not to be afraid, that everything was going

14     to be all right, and that we should go towards the Potocari military

15     compound.  And then, one by one, people went out of their base, and a

16     huge mass of people went down the asphalt road all the way to Potocari.

17        Q.   And were you with your son Adnan and your father-in-law along

18     this asphalt road to Potocari?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you briefly describe that journey.

21        A.   The journey was terrible.  Shells followed us along the way, on

22     both sides of the asphalt road.  I can't tell you exactly the frequency,

23     but they zigzagged from one side onto the other side.  Some people were

24     wounded by shrapnels.  Whoever was wounded remained there.  It was mainly

25     women, children, and the infirm, and they couldn't help others.  Some

Page 10022

 1     elderly people remained on the road because there was nobody available

 2     who could carry them.  Nobody was strong enough for that.  That's how we

 3     went the whole way to Potocari.

 4             It was maybe a kilometre and a half before Potocari that two

 5     UNPROFOR trucks caught up with us.  One of them had the tarpaulin taken

 6     off and torn off and the truck was full of people.  I recognised my son

 7     in one of trucks.  I could see him, he saw me, and he waved towards me.

 8     He was there with a friend of his; they used to spend time together in

 9     Srebrenica.  Those trucks passed us and went towards Potocari.  That's

10     when I saw him for the last time because I couldn't find hum in Potocari

11     anymore.

12        Q.   And which son was that that you saw for the last time on that

13     truck?

14        A.   It was my eldest, Elvir Malagic.

15        Q.   And where was the last time -- or where did you see your husband

16     and your other son off that went to the woods?

17        A.   It was in front of the UNPROFOR gate in Srebrenica, close to the

18     gas station.  I don't know exactly how to describe it.  That's where we

19     parted.  We didn't really have time to properly say good-bye.  They went

20     away because of the shelling.  I don't know even today how it was that my

21     eldest son in the end boarded the truck.  I can only assume that.  But

22     after that, I haven't seen him.

23        Q.   Have you ever seen your husband and the son that left with him,

24     ever seen them alive again?

25        A.   No, never.

Page 10023

 1        Q.   And where do you go when you finally get to Potocari that day, on

 2     the 11th of July?

 3        A.   On that day, in the afternoon, we arrived to Potocari.  We went

 4     straight to the UNPROFOR base which was the former car battery factory.

 5     We came in front of the gate of the factory.  They had already put yellow

 6     and red ribbons and there were UNPROFOR soldiers.  They wouldn't let us

 7     pass.  They told us that that place was full and that we couldn't go

 8     there, so we realised that the compounds itself was full, that the base

 9     was full, and that the rest of us simply couldn't go there.  We had to

10     stay in front of those ribbons in front of their gate.

11             So I went back because I didn't want to be in the street on the

12     asphalt.  So we went instead into the nearby factory.  There were some

13     other factories nearby.  And there were so many people looking for

14     accommodation that we had to find some place.  We were in the open air in

15     the compound of the factory, in the zinc factory.  Then there was also

16     the factory called 11th of March, then there was the transport company of

17     Srebrenica, so we simply went inside those compounds to seek shelter

18     there.  Other people did the same.

19        Q.   Okay.  And is it fair to say that you and thousands of others

20     spent the night in and around those factories and that that night was

21     relatively quiet?  And you've said before that people -- some people did

22     feel safe that night; is that right?

23        A.    Yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  So when the sun comes up on the morning of the 12th, what

25     happened?  And, again, just briefly describe the main events that you

Page 10024

 1     recall that you've talked about before.

 2        A.   On the morning of the 12th of July -- well, first I have to say

 3     that in the evening on the 11th they were shelling the demarcation line,

 4     not around the people, but they were shelling the demarcation line.  I

 5     was born there, so I know the area.  We could hear bullets, explosive

 6     bullets, and sniper activity.  I sat upright the whole night.  I didn't

 7     get any sleep that night.

 8             And then the next morning on the 12th, they started from the

 9     nearby hills -- or, more precisely, from the village of Zogaze [phoen].

10     I know that place, that's Likari Pecic, I was born there.  And we could

11     see the houses being burned there.  First they would torch the auxiliary

12     buildings, so-called summer kitchens, barns, haystacks.  Because, you

13     know, people used to live in those houses.  So we could see the houses

14     burning and the people coming down.

15        Q.   When you say "they burned these places," who do you mean?

16        A.   Serbian soldiers.  The soldiers who were going down from house to

17     house, torching the houses, until they arrived down and we could see

18     them.  They were going downhill, towards the compound of the transport

19     company in Srebrenica.  My brothers used to have a house there, but it

20     had been destroyed earlier.

21             So the soldiers arrived to a field right next to the people.

22     There were some horses - I don't know whose horses they were - they tied

23     the horses to a huge tree that was there and then they started shooting.

24     They were shooting in the air, they were singing.  They were having fun.

25     They were making us scared.  They also managed to scare the horses.  And

Page 10025

 1     they would run around the tree.  We could see that.  You could see that

 2     in plain sight.

 3             We stayed where we were.  We didn't go out of the compound.  But

 4     the circle was getting tighter and tighter, because they also told the

 5     people who used to be in the houses and the hill that they should go down

 6     into the compound and that they were going to be evacuated.  So the women

 7     from those houses would also arrive there and they would join us there.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I apologise for interrupting.  I

 9     would like to clarify one matter.

10             The last question of Mr. McCloskey was:  Who do you mean they

11     burned the houses?  And the answer was:  Serbian soldiers.

12             Are you referring to Serbian soldiers or Bosnian Serb soldiers?

13     You use the term Serbian soldiers in your testimony frequently.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I didn't express myself

15     correctly.  At the time, I didn't know whether they were Serbian soldiers

16     in the meaning of Serbia or whether they were Bosnian Serb soldiers.

17     They wore camouflage uniforms and they were soldiers and they were Serbs.

18     Now, whether they were Serbian soldiers or the soldiers of Serbia, I

19     didn't know that.

20             When they arrived into the compound, you could see that there

21     were many young men among them, so that's something that told me that

22     they could be a regular army, because they were young.  It's simply a

23     conclusion of mine.  Now, whether those people who were torching houses

24     were Bosnian Serb soldiers or reserve soldiers, I wouldn't know.  What I

25     know is that they wore camouflage uniforms.

Page 10026

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 2             Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   All right.  Can you tell us the other main events that happened

 5     on that day, the 12th of July, after the Serb soldiers, as you've

 6     described them, converged on the area?

 7        A.   Yes.  Around the part where I was, and many other women together

 8     with me, I was in one of the rooms in the zinc factory.  My father-in-law

 9     he was in front of me.  There were no doors, no windows, so we could see

10     each other and communicate.  They would come pass among us.  They would

11     interrogate us.  Groups of them would arrive to ask us, Where are your

12     men?  Where are your soldiers?  Where are your husbands?  Where are your

13     brothers?  Where are your sons?  Where are able-bodied men?  Where did

14     they go?  It went on like this until the afternoon.  They would go among

15     us, walk among us look at us, ask questions.  Some of them were - how

16     should I put it? - you know, they were swearing.  Some of them were

17     swearing.

18             They told us, Your Alija did all this to you.  That's what they

19     said.  We were silent, of course.  What else could we say?  We didn't

20     start any conversation or discussion unless you were asked something

21     directly.  A son of a colleague of mine was a bit of a naughty child and

22     a neighbour of her came there to ask where her husband was.  She said

23     that he was wounded in 1993, that he was taken to Tuzla and further on to

24     Germany, that he is now disabled.  So they went away.

25             So on that day, until the afternoon, they would take men in small

Page 10027

 1     groups and interrogate them.  It was quite close to us, but we couldn't

 2     quite see what was going on.  We simply saw that they were being

 3     interrogated.  I had no family with me, so they didn't ask me anything.

 4        Q.   Again, can we make it clear:  When you say "they," who do you

 5     think this they is that are taking the men away like this?

 6        A.   Well, maybe I'm going to make a mistake, but those were people in

 7     camouflage uniforms who would walk among us.  They were armed.  We

 8     couldn't know.  There were some younger men, there were some older men

 9     among them.  So those older men were not soldiers.  Now, whether they

10     were Bosnian Serbs or regular army, I would say that there must have been

11     some regular army among them because only regular army would have so

12     young men.  It was the kind of the army that we were used to before the

13     war.  And we know that it was them by the uniforms, because they were all

14     a dressed up in the same way.  They would approach us, interrogate us.

15     And later on, in the afternoon, they started taking the men away in

16     groups.  They were asking somebody from Zepa here, Zepa has fallen, you

17     cannot go back to Zepa.  So you could hear what they were talking about

18     when they were talking among themselves.

19             Some of them you could judge by their accent because some of them

20     spoke Ekavian.  So it meant that they must have been from Serbia.  That's

21     the kind of accent that you can easily recognise.  That's something that

22     I can recognise and then I can make my conclusion.  So this all went like

23     that until the afternoon.

24        Q.   All right.  Amongst the Serbian men that you saw on this day, the

25     12th, and even on the 13th, were you able to recognise any former

Page 10028

 1     neighbours, colleagues that may have been from the Peciste, Potocari,

 2     Bratunac area?  And I don't need you to name, you know, all of them; but

 3     if there are any, can you tell us?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   For example, you've said Milisav Gavric; was he there?

 6        A.   Yes.  That's what I was just about to say.  On the 12th of July,

 7     in the afternoon, I went to fetch some water with another woman.  It was

 8     very hot and we had no water.  So I went to a nearby water-pump behind

 9     the house and we had to pass through the gate of the zinc factory and

10     through the gate of the 11th of March factory.  And this Milisav Gavric

11     was there at the gate with a group of our people.

12             Among others, there was an uncle of my husband and some other

13     acquaintances from Potocari.  For instance, two brothers that I knew

14     then, another man who used to work as a taxi-driver in Bratunac.  There

15     were also some people that I knew by face.  And the conversation sounded

16     quite cordial.  This Gavric was obviously in quite a good mood.  In

17     peacetime he was the chief of the SUP in Srebrenica.  I knew him well.

18     He was a friend of my older brother.  We knew each other well.  So I

19     passed through there to fetch some water, and I gave some water to my

20     youngest son.

21             Then two young boys, young men, came to ask us whether somebody

22     from Luke or from Zepa was there.  And then, when we returned, they began

23     to take away people in groups.  At that moment they were interrogating a

24     son from a colleague of mine; her name was Sabahata.  They came together

25     to the UN compound, she and her son.  Since there was no space there, he

Page 10029

 1     was with us in the zinc factory.  They took him away two times.  They

 2     would interrogate him and they would then bring him back, three men would

 3     bring him back.  And then when they took him away the third time, he did

 4     not come back.

 5             So it was already the afternoon when they started taking the men

 6     away.  And those men who were then taken away did not return.  They

 7     didn't return that evening, they didn't return that night, they didn't

 8     return the following morning.  We lost all trace of them.

 9             I also saw Ahmo Salihovic.  He was a neighbour of mine.  He also

10     never returned.  Then Riad Fezic [phoen], a son of a colleague of mine,

11     he also didn't return.  He didn't survive.  We know nothing about his

12     fate.  Then I could see Hamid Efendic being interrogated.  Those people

13     were around me so I could see them being interrogated.  But there were

14     also many other men whom I didn't know.  Those who were taken away mostly

15     did not come back.  They were all taken to a house behind the zinc

16     factory and those men never returned to their families.

17        Q.   Do you remember seeing any vehicles arrive that day later on in

18     the afternoon at all, that 12th of July?

19        A.   Vehicles from the direction of Srebrenica passed us by.  They

20     were going to Bratunac or towards Bratunac.  These vehicles were loaded

21     with various goods.  You could tell that houses had been looted.

22     Somebody had already looted other people's homes and driving that away.

23     You could see this through that mass of people.  But some of them were

24     covered with tarpaulins, however some were not, and in those you could

25     see that there were household appliances, washing machines, TV sets, and

Page 10030

 1     other household appliances.  They had been covered with carpets.  So you

 2     could tell that these items had been removed from somebody's house.  No

 3     other vehicles passed by.

 4        Q.   That day, in the afternoon or early evening, did you notice any

 5     of the Muslim population getting in vehicles and being driven away?

 6        A.   The evening of the 12th of July, we were informed that the

 7     evacuation would begin.  But we were told that women with small children

 8     had the advantage, that they would be evacuated first.  And when that was

 9     done, then others, the elderly and the sick, would be evacuated.  But

10     then we were told that only women with small children, especially babies,

11     would be evacuated.  That was in the evening.  We were unable to see

12     those vehicles; they were far away.  They only came to the UNPROFOR base,

13     and it was from there that the first evacuations, the women with the

14     children, were taken from.  From the mass of people, we were unable to

15     see what type of vehicles exactly arrived.

16        Q.   Okay.  Can you describe where you spent the night of the 12th and

17     just a little bit about that experience, you and your family, if you were

18     still together with your young son and your father-in-law.

19        A.   The evening of the 12th of July, it was a Wednesday, we spent in

20     the same place, we remained in the same place.  But before night fell

21     that evening -- I forgot to mention there was no toilet there.  There was

22     some nearby houses and people used some improvised outdoor toilets there.

23     And I went there with my son.  I was looking around, I was very worried,

24     and I got to a fence, part of a fence had been removed in the zinc

25     factory, and I looked at the fence and there were some soldiers there,

Page 10031

 1     two soldiers armed on either side of the fence.  I stopped, they didn't

 2     say anything, and one of them just waved his hand at me, indicating that

 3     I should go back.

 4             I saw several soldiers around that house.  They were all armed.

 5     And it was that evening.  And then nobody was allowed to go in there from

 6     that gate.  So we spent the night in the same place.

 7        Q.   What soldiers were those, if you could tell?

 8        A.   No.  I don't know.  They were soldiers and they were armed with

 9     rifles and they were standing at that separation line between the zinc

10     factory and that house where the other soldiers were.  We were no longer

11     able to go there; they wouldn't let us.

12        Q.   Could they have been Dutch?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   And I take it they weren't Muslim soldiers?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Okay.  You've described that night, the 12th, as the -- one of

17     the worst nights of your life.  And I know it was a long, horrible night,

18     but can you just tell us, in terms as you can, what happened that night?

19        A.   Yes.  As you said, that was one of the most horrific nights in my

20     life.  You know, when you are in a situation and there's no way out, you

21     don't know what's going to happen to you from one hour to the next.  And

22     when night fell, there were people everywhere, on the road, behind

23     trucks, on the APCs, the buses; there were people everywhere, simply.

24     There were people with torches.  Actually it was the soldiers who came

25     and looked at the people with the torches.  They were looking for the men

Page 10032

 1     who I guess they were already planning to take away.  But either way,

 2     they came and they were mainly singling out the men.

 3             What else could those people do?  Nobody could stand up to them.

 4     You could just hear people screaming.  The women screaming who had sons

 5     taken away from them.  I don't know how old they were, but in either case

 6     they led away most of the older boys and they were never to return.  You

 7     didn't hear a single shot that night.  You didn't hear them being killed.

 8     And if they were killed, and they were, they could only have been killed

 9     by knife.

10             What we saw the next day was six children who had been killed in

11     a corn field.  My sister went there and she saw these children with her

12     own eyes.  Some of them were younger than 10 or 12 years old.  So we were

13     no longer allowed to go into those fields.  The only thing you could hear

14     was crying, moaning, screaming, and some other sounds, I don't know what

15     it was, but it's like from horror films.  Screams like horror films.  I

16     don't know whether those were moans of people who were being tortured.

17     I'm not sure what it was, but there was chaos.  It was a very difficult

18     night.  It was longer than thousands of other nights in my life.

19        Q.   Did you yourself see anyone that had committed suicide?  Any

20     Muslim?

21        A.   Yes.  A relative of mine who worked in the zinc factory before

22     the war used to work in that very room.  We found him in the morning.  He

23     hanged himself.  We saw that he'd hanged himself.  And when -- because

24     when he realised what was happening, that people were being led away not

25     to return, he committed suicide.

Page 10033

 1        Q.   And what was his name?

 2        A.   Hamdija Smajlovic.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let's now get to the morning of the 13th when the sun

 4     comes up.  What do you do?  What happens then?  What do you remember

 5     mainly about that day?

 6        A.   When morning broke that day, there was even larger chaos in

 7     relation to the previous day.  Everybody, that is, all the women with the

 8     children, everybody who was alive, simply wanted to leave Potocari as

 9     soon as possible.  Everybody left the factories.  Everybody was in a

10     hurry to get to this so-called UNPROFOR barricade.

11             It was there that people were loaded on buses and trucks in order

12     to be transported.  I thought it was far away, and apparently there were

13     some representatives of the ICRC who said that we shouldn't be afraid,

14     who said that there was no need to be in a hurry.  However, nobody heeded

15     that advice.  Everybody was in a hurry.  Everybody wanted to get on the

16     vehicles because they didn't know what lay ahead.  And they just wanted

17     to get out of this place where they knew that nothing good was going to

18     happen to them.  Everybody was afraid.  Some of them had had family

19     members taken away without knowing why.  And they wanted to get to the

20     UNPROFOR barricade as soon as possible.  But that was impossible because

21     there was a huge mass of people.  It was suffocating, it was very, very

22     hot, and I had to get out of the sun because my right arm was hurting.  I

23     had to get out of the crowd.  So I sat down with my child.  My

24     father-in-law was with me; he never left my side.  We got out of the line

25     because we needed a little bit of space.

Page 10034

 1             And then in the morning we heard Ratko Mladic speaking and some

 2     other soldiers who were dressed in camouflage uniforms and they would

 3     give the children chocolates, candy, or chewing gum.  They told us not to

 4     worry.  They said that nothing was going to happen to anyone.  They said

 5     that we were all going to be evacuated and that we would all be able to

 6     go wherever we wanted to go.  However, I really didn't believe that.  To

 7     this day I don't believe anyone.  After everything, I don't believe

 8     anyone.

 9             I was waiting to see what was going to happen.  I wanted some

10     space to stand up, because children were suffocating.  There was a huge

11     mass of people.  There was no air.  And while I was waiting there, as you

12     said a moment ago, some -- I saw some people who I knew, an active

13     policeman from Bratunac.  I thought we had been friends in peacetime;

14     that's how we treated each other.  I worked together with his wife.  He

15     was standing there.  I believe he was dressed in their police uniform.

16     He was wearing a light blue shirt and grey trousers.  He had a belt.  He

17     wasn't wearing a cap.  He was standing there and just watching things

18     quietly, as if we had never met.

19        Q.   What is his name?

20        A.   Miladin Jokic.

21        Q.   And did you actually hear General Mladic speak the words that you

22     had say earlier?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   The words you said you didn't believe?

25        A.   Yes.  He said, Don't be afraid, nothing's going to happen to you,

Page 10035

 1     you are going to be evacuated, that we would be transferred where we

 2     wanted to go, that everything was going to be fine.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And then what happened with you and your father-in-law and

 4     your young son?

 5        A.   When the evacuation started, and once there was finally a little

 6     space because some people managed to get through the barricade, we got up

 7     and we started walking behind them.  It went on for an hour or two before

 8     we reached the UNPROFOR barricade.  People were being allowed through

 9     little by little.  It was difficult to get there because you had

10     difficulty walking on the road from all the blankets, the back-packs.  I

11     didn't know what was happening at the time, whether people had to throw

12     them down or they just did.  Either way, when I got to the barricade with

13     my son and my father-in-law, I realised that we had to throw things down.

14     The soldiers were saying, Leave everything because you'll have better

15     accommodation and better beds there; you don't need your blankets.  They

16     said that Alija was waiting for us there.  That's what they were saying

17     at that barricade.

18        Q.   Can you tell me, were these Serb soldiers, Dutch soldiers; do you

19     know?

20        A.   I think they were Serbs.  I think they were Serbs because the

21     Dutch couldn't speak Serbo-Croatian like that.  You could tell that they

22     had an accent.  And that evening I saw soldiers tied to an APC.  I saw

23     that they were removing their shirts.  I realised that they were also in

24     a state of chaos and that they were not in a position to do anything.

25     Because before they were walking around and when the elderly people asked

Page 10036

 1     them what was going to happen to us, where are we going to go; they said,

 2     don't worry, nothing's going to happen to you.

 3             They spoke Serbo-Croatian as native speakers.  The Dutch couldn't

 4     speak the language like that.  They never did.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I'm sorry I interrupted you.  Can you tell us what

 6     happened when you got to this barricade with your father-in-law and your

 7     young son?

 8        A.   Yes.  They let us get through that barricade.  It was just the

 9     tape that they had put up.  They indicated at the road the buses were

10     further down.  There was a large convoy of buses and trucks, and these

11     were to transport us.  When we reached the buses, there were some other

12     soldiers there in camouflage uniforms and they separated the women from

13     the men.  They said, You can't go there, you have to get on these other

14     buses.  You'll be transported in other buses.  We walked on the

15     right-hand side towards Bratunac, and on the other side they singled out

16     the men, including my father-in-law, my brother-in-law.  Some relatives

17     and neighbours who crossed this barricade with us were all singled out,

18     and they crossed the road.  They went on the left-hand side of that

19     house.  They crossed the bridge and they directed them to that house.

20     And we walked to the buses.  They didn't get on any buses at that time.

21        Q.   Aside from your father-in-law, can you tell us any names of any

22     one, any of the Muslim men that you saw get separated there?  If you can

23     remember.

24        A.   Yes.  My brother-in-law Ramiz Cakar, a relative, the brother of

25     the man who hung himself, Ismet Smajlovic.  My neighbours

Page 10037

 1     Alija Hasanovic, Hajro Huseinovic, Hamid Ibrahimovic, Sevko Salihovic,

 2     Sale Rizvanovic, Behaja Rizvanovic, many others.  There were other men

 3     there.  Sakib Suljagic, Sadik Hasanovic.  He was also separated.  He was

 4     my aunt's son.  And many other men whose names I perhaps can't remember

 5     right now.  But they were all separated and none of them got onto the

 6     buses.

 7        Q.   Have you ever seen any of those men again?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And can you tell us, were there any babies on the bus or put on

10     the bus by people?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can you briefly describe how that happened?

13        A.   When I reached the buses, the backdoor of the bus was open as

14     well as the front door.  I was near the front door and there was some

15     people getting on the back.  The soldier who was letting us onto the bus

16     at the front door, and I was followed by my neighbour Behaja Salihovic,

17     who had a baby that was six or seven months old, I'm not sure exactly,

18     the soldier stopped him.  I was getting on the bus.  The soldier told him

19     to stop.  And at that time my aunt and her daughter were getting on the

20     backdoor with another baby.  It was her brother's baby.  And he called

21     out to her and said, Who let you get in the backdoor?  She thought that

22     she was going to be singled out because some young girls or young women

23     were singled out at that time as well; however, he told her to get in the

24     front and he said that she was to transport this baby as well to, as he

25     put it, your territory.  And he said, You'll have to try and find the

Page 10038

 1     baby a family.

 2             So the father handed the baby over to my aunt's daughter.  She

 3     took the baby and got on the bus.  He -- his tears started flowing and he

 4     was taken on the other side of the road.  Sale Rizvanovic was separated

 5     the same way.  He was there with his whole family.  His mother was there,

 6     and his mother took the child.  So I helped the young woman with the baby

 7     until we got to Kladanj.  And then the soldiers asked on the

 8     loud-speakers for anybody from the family and then the baby's mother came

 9     for the baby.  That was in Kladanj.

10        Q.   Okay.  And is it fair to say that you were transported with your

11     young son who was with you through the town of Bratunac and that you

12     stopped somewhere around Sandici?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And did you see any Muslim men around that area?

15        A.   Yes.  In an area between Sandici and Kravica, closer to Sandici,

16     I was standing up in the bus because it was crowded so I had to stand up,

17     and I was able to see what was happening along the road.  The buses were

18     travelling very slowly and I was able to see a very large column of men.

19     Some of them were naked to the waist, some of them were in T-shirts, and

20     the first four were carrying probably a wounded man on a blanket.  The

21     because was passing by this column and all of a sudden I saw some people

22     I knew, some young men, my neighbours, who I knew that they had separated

23     from us and that they went through the woods.  I saw these young men and

24     then I knew that they had been arrested, captured, and that my children,

25     my husband, and my brothers were probably in the same situation.  And I

Page 10039

 1     didn't see them in that column, but I saw quite a few neighbours there.

 2        Q.   All right.  And is it fair that you travelled onward through

 3     Vlasenica and were let off at the -- an area by the confrontation line

 4     where you walked along the asphalt road through the tunnel to where you

 5     were taken in by internationals and the -- and fellow Muslims in Kladanj?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I just want to ask you a couple of more questions, because it's

 8     time for the break in five minutes and I think we can get done.

 9             What city do you live in now?

10        A.   Now?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   I live in Vogosca.  That's in Sarajevo.  It's a municipality in

13     Sarajevo.

14        Q.   And do you still have your home on the banks of the Drina near

15     Bratunac?

16        A.   The house had been destroyed.  But to the extent possible, I

17     managed to renovate it with -- I received a small donation.  I had some

18     of my own money.  So that I could go there, I could visit it, I could

19     spend the night.  Yes, I do have the house.  Not -- it doesn't look the

20     way it used to, but, yes, there's a house that's standing.  It's much

21     smaller, it's miniature, but it's all right for the current conditions.

22        Q.   Why don't you live there, this house that you and your husband

23     built?

24        A.   Well, that's a long story why I don't live there.  It's

25     impossible to live there.  Anyone who survives Srebrenica, who survived

Page 10040

 1     the war, who went through everything that I went through, believe me,

 2     cannot live there.  When you go there, your memories come back.  It's

 3     like you're seeing a film of your own life.  You come to your own home

 4     but your family is not there, your nearest and dearest are all gone.  You

 5     know that they are no longer living because my -- one of my sons was

 6     found and identified and he was buried in Potocari after 15 years.  There

 7     are hundreds of similar houses next to mine.  There is one house and a

 8     woman living in another house and a woman living ... and when these women

 9     die, the houses get closed down.  There's no life there.  It's painful to

10     live there.

11        Q.   Is there any community there, any Muslim community anymore, in

12     your village?

13        A.   Yes.  In my village it's mainly the elderly who live there.  They

14     are the happiest when they are in their own homes; despite everything,

15     they are the happiest when they're there.  But those people who have

16     children, those who have a family member who survived, are elsewhere.

17     They have a house or an apartment somewhere else, or they're renting

18     either in Sarajevo or abroad, somewhere in Europe or in America or

19     Australia.  But they are not there.  There are the elderly people, and

20     there's less of them.  There's fewer of them every day.

21        Q.   Can you tell us, of your close family members which ones have

22     been found and buried?

23        A.   Yes.  My father-in-law, I believe he was buried three years ago.

24     He was identified and buried.  My husband and my middle son,

25     Admir Malagic, were identified.  And last year, on the 15th, they were

Page 10041

 1     buried.  One of my brothers in law was buried in Bratunac because he was

 2     killed in Srebrenica before the fall of Srebrenica.  And an older

 3     brother-in-law was buried in Voljavica in our village graveyard because

 4     he was also killed at the beginning of the war.  He was buried during the

 5     night in Voljavica.  People buried him without any ceremony.

 6        Q.   Is there one son that you still have not found?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Who is that and how old was he?

 9        A.   This is Elvir Malagic.  He stayed in Potocari.  He was in the

10     UNPROFOR base like I explained.  He was never found.  He was 19 years old

11     at the time, about to become 20.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mrs. Malagic, thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, indeed.

14             We must have our break now, and we will resume in half an hour,

15     quarter past 6.00.  And then Mr. Tolimir is commencing his

16     cross-examination.

17             The Court Usher will assist you during the break.  Thank you very

18     much.  We adjourn.

19                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please commence your

22     cross-examination.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

24     like to wish for peace in this house and to all those present in the

25     courtroom and also to Madam Mirsada, and I would like her testimony

Page 10042

 1     today, as well as the entire proceedings, ends as God wills it and not as

 2     I do.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] I would like to ask Madam Mirsada this, to make

 5     it possible for the interpreters to translate every word that we speak

 6     since we speak the same language:  I would like us to pause between

 7     answer and question.  I don't want the answers to be too long.  She can

 8     pause until she sees the letters stop moving on the screen and then she

 9     can begin her answer.  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation], I would like to look at this

11     document now, 1D586, in the e-court.  This is a statement by

12     Mrs. Malagic.  This will make it easier for her to see and to recall what

13     she said in her statement and would make it easier for her to answer my

14     questions.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please check the number again.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I think

17     I made an error.  It should be 1D589.  I switched the last two numbers.

18     Thank you.

19             Now we can see the statement.  Can we turn to page 1, please

20     after this.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This is a statement that was given to the State Commission of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 20th of July, 1995.  It's entitled,

24     "Statement."  We are going to look at the paragraph, the first paragraph,

25     of the actual statement.  I am going to read from the first paragraph.  I

Page 10043

 1     quote:

 2             "It started in April on the Ramadan Bajram.  I was living in the

 3     village of Voljavica, Bratunac municipality, with two young children and

 4     my husband.  That day, like every year on Bajram, we had a celebration.

 5     It was 5th of April, 1992."

 6             Thank you.  I apologise.  When I was quoting, I did not refer to

 7     the husband's name.  I think it's Salko, but it's not very clear in the

 8     statement, so I didn't want to make a mistake.

 9             My question is:  Was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia united

10     and was Bosnia-Herzegovina an integral part of Yugoslavia on the

11     5th of April, 1992?  Thank you.

12        A.   I don't know.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that on the 6th of April, 1992,

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina declared its independence and separated from --

15     without the agreement of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?  Thank you.

16        A.   [Previous translation continued] [No interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 2 of the

19     statement.  The first paragraph.

20             I have been informed that the witness's answer was not recorded

21     in the transcript, so I would like her to answer whether she knew that on

22     the 6th of April, 1992, Bosnia, of its own initiative, without the

23     agreement of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, proclaimed its

24     independence?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask the witness to

Page 10044

 1     repeat her answer.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mrs. Mirsada, may I ask you to wait with your

 3     answer because we are still in the process of receiving the

 4     interpretation of the question.  And the interpreters need to know what

 5     you answered so that we have it on the record and we can understand the

 6     translation.  Therefore, I would kindly ask you to pause before giving

 7     the answer.  You can see if the -- on the record it is still movement,

 8     then that has not finished.

 9             Perhaps you remember the question of Mr. Tolimir?  Could you give

10     us the answer you already provided.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

13             Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to remind, her name is Malagic.

15     Mrs. Malagic.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I apologise, I mixed up the first and the family

17     name.  I'm very sorry for that.

18             Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we look at page 2

20     of the statement in e-court now, please, and can we look at line 8 in the

21     first paragraph, because that first paragraph has 22 lines.  Could we

22     mark line 8 so that the witness could see exactly what that refers to.

23     Thank you.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you.  And now you can see where the marker is.  I'm going

Page 10045

 1     to start to quote from there:

 2             "A soldier came to Bratunac.  We were told that this was the

 3     Novi Sad Corps.  They introduced themselves to us as the Novi Sad Corps.

 4     They had supposedly come to protect us so that nothing would happen to

 5     us."

 6             On the basis of what I have read from your statement -- did you

 7     see that, lines 8 and 9 and a part of line 10?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   This Novi Sad Corps, did they arrive to the federal state where

10     the federal army was?  Because Srebrenica at that time was still part of

11     the federal state.  Yes or no?

12        A.   I couldn't answer that question.

13        Q.   Thank you.  At the federal level at the time, did the

14     representatives of the republics make decisions on the use of the army in

15     order to separate the warring parties and different ethnicities in Bosnia

16     and Croatia and in other areas?  Thank you.

17             Are you aware of this?  Did you watch these broadcasts?

18        A.   No.  Sir, I did not have time to watch these reports or

19     broadcasts, and I don't know anything about these things.  I stand by my

20     statement about what I experienced and what I saw.  As for different

21     decisions and things like that, that is something that I don't know.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, as I told you earlier, please wait

23     and pause, not start immediately with your next question.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 10046

 1        Q.   Mrs. Malagic, earlier you answered that Bosnia willfully, without

 2     the agreement of the federal republic, declared its independence on the

 3     6th of April, 1992, but here in the statement you say that before

 4     that -- we quoted that paragraph where you said that this was on the

 5     5th of April, 1992, that a unit of the Novi Sad Corps came to the

 6     Srebrenica and the Eastern Bosnia area.

 7             My question is:  At the time, did those soldiers of the

 8     Novi Sad Corps come as the army of the federal state to the territory of

 9     a member of the federal state, that at the time was Bosnia?  Thank you.

10        A.   That week we were assigned to work duty.  We didn't know what

11     this Novi Sad Corps was supposed to defend us from what or from whom.

12     They were never in Bratunac.  You know very well that there were never

13     any soldiers in Bratunac.  Who were they supposed to defend us from and

14     why they came, this is something that just regular people didn't know.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Please, can you now look at paragraph 2 of this

16     statement of yours.  It's also on page 2.  It begins with numbers.

17             "On the 17th to the 18th of April, 1992, Potocari, the village of

18     Potocari, was attacked."

19             My question is:  Did this also happen before Bosnia proclaimed

20     its independence and that it was separating from Serbia?  Thank you.

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We couldn't hear your answer.  Please repeat your

23     answer.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not clear to me that I should

25     and that I can answer these questions that are being put to me by

Page 10047

 1     Mr. Tolimir.  Dates that had to do with the state or state matters are

 2     something that I don't know anything about.  I wasn't able to know about

 3     that.  I know what was happening in that area those days.  I know those

 4     dates.  And what I experienced, I've talked about it.  And I stand by the

 5     statements that I gave.

 6             As for this date or that date, what happened on that date or what

 7     happened on another date, I mean, these are things that I'm not sure

 8     about.  I cannot answer questions about that.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would like to give you some

10     guidance on this matter.  I think we have heard the testimony during the

11     examination-in-chief.  If you look at this statement, it is her personal

12     experience, what she went through and could testify about.  I think you

13     should ask other witnesses about state affairs.  There is nothing about

14     independence and the situation of the state, the different states of

15     Yugoslavia, the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or Republika Srpska.  I

16     think this is the wrong witness to put questions to related to these

17     matters.  Please focus on those topics she is able to testify about,

18     otherwise it's a waste of time.

19             Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And it really is absolutely essential that she be

21     able to leave tonight.  And as the Court knows, that you encouraged the

22     Prosecution to stay to 1995, where I did, and so I'm sure that applies to

23     the accused as well.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have only 26 minutes left.  Focus, please, on

25     the evidence of this witness.

Page 10048

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm going to use my

 2     time, if it's not taken away from me, I'm going to use it rationally.

 3     But on page 2 the witness said in paragraph 2 that on the 17th and the

 4     18th of April, 1992, Potocari was attacked.  Earlier she replied:  Who

 5     was the Novi Sad Corps supposed to be defending us from.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   What I want to ask her now is this:  The conflict between Muslims

 8     and Serbs, did it occur in the village of Potocari on the 17th and

 9     18th of April, 1992, as you said?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And were there any grounds then for a federal unit to come to

12     separate Serbs and Muslims who were in conflict?  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I have to interrupt you again.  You

14     are dealing with 1992 again.  The Prosecution mainly examined the witness

15     about her experience in 1995.  You are again putting a question in

16     relation toward the conflict at a whole between Muslims and Serbs.

17     Please focus on the matters the Prosecution has called this

18     witness: 1995.  Don't waste your time in cross-examination.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  If it is

20     necessary, I'm going to quote the question by the Prosecution as well as

21     the answer of Mrs. Malagic when she mentioned the Novi Sad Corps during

22     the examination-in-chief.  Thank you.

23             If the Prosecution accepts that there were some inter-ethnic

24     conflicts there, then I'm not going to ask Mrs. Malagic anything about

25     1992 and 1993 and I'm going to move on to 1995.  But I think that first

Page 10049

 1     it should be stipulated.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, and I can remind the General

 4     that there are agreed-upon -- there are facts, adjudicated facts,

 5     regarding the conflict, adjudicated facts regarding almost all of the

 6     area of the testimony of the last witness.  These are not -- these are

 7     not issues in contest.  And certainly the issues of the break-up of the

 8     former Yugoslavia and at what levels it occurred is certainly nothing for

 9     this witness.  But I'm sure the General and I can agree on a lot if he

10     wants to do that, but I hope we can do it without this witness's

11     involvement so she can get done.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the witness made clear that she is

13     not able to answer questions in relation to general areas of the

14     conflict.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm merely

16     asking about the topics covered during the examination-in-chief.  I

17     understand you, I understand Mr. McCloskey, and I'm not going to ask

18     anything more about the period up to 1995.  But this should be noted for

19     the record.

20             And then I also think that this statement here should not be

21     admitted because this statement deals mainly with the events from 1992

22     and 1993.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was not tendered yet by anybody.

24             Go ahead, please.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  So I'm now

Page 10050

 1     moving on to the fifth page of the statement; oh, we are still in 1992.

 2     Then let's go to page six; oh, that's still 1993.  And page 8 covers 1994

 3     so I'm going to skip that too and arrive to page 9 of the statement of

 4     Mrs. Malagic.  Paragraph 3, where she begins to describe the

 5     6th of July, 1995.  It's page 10 in e-court, thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   During the examination-in-chief, you stated that on the

 8     9th of July you attempted to go to the UNPROFOR base in Srebrenica but

 9     you were returned to your house.  My question is:  Do you know where was

10     the Muslim army from Srebrenica at the time?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Thank you.  My following question:  Do you know whether there was

13     any army, Muslim army, in Srebrenica?  Are you able to tell us anything

14     about the Muslim army in Srebrenica?  Thank you.

15        A.   If you want me to tell you, I can tell you that there were some

16     able-bodied men, soldiers, in Srebrenica.  Yes, there was some kind of

17     army in Srebrenica as you say, but you cannot possibly compare it with

18     the regular army.  Take, for example, some other armies, properly armed

19     armies; you know very well that our army did not have weapons, that

20     Srebrenica was demilitarised, that the weapons were handed over to the

21     UNPROFOR, the DutchBat.  Anybody can confirm that.  So if we are talking

22     about able-bodied men being soldiers, yes, but they had no arms.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Malagic.  Are you aware that Naser Oric declared

24     that the Srebrenica army took about 4.000 barrels with them when they

25     began the break-through from Susnjari towards Baljkovica and other places

Page 10051

 1     in the territory of the federation?  Do you know that Rasim Delic also

 2     declared that most of the soldiers managed to break through through

 3     Baljkovica towards the territory of the federation and that they have

 4     re-established their link with the BiH Army?  I have documents about it,

 5     but since you are in a hurry, I don't want to pull them out now.  Thank

 6     you.

 7        A.   First of all, you posed me several questions.  What Naser Oric

 8     said, I know nothing about.  That's first of all.  Second, I know that

 9     the majority of people, I can't tell you exactly how many, but

10     80 per cent of people who went through the forest, my husband, my

11     brothers, my sons, they had absolutely no weapons.  They were bare foot,

12     they were hungry, and they simply wanted to reach the free territory in

13     Tuzla.  That's what I know.  And they all perished.  It is not true that

14     that many people managed to break through.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Malagic.  I'm not going to quote my sources since

16     you only have 20 minutes because you had agreed with the Prosecution that

17     you were to go home.  But the Trial Chamber knows about these things.

18             My following question is:  You say that you arrived to the

19     UNPROFOR base in Potocari on the 11th.  You said that you went by foot

20     from the UNPROFOR base in Srebrenica to the UNPROFOR base in Potocari and

21     that your column was shelled on the way.  Is that true?  You said that

22     today, page 53 of the transcript.

23        A.   Yes, that's true.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that UNPROFOR soldiers testified here,

25     soldiers who went with the column, and they said that the shells landed

Page 10052

 1     on the left and the right side of the road but there were no hits on the

 2     civilians, the civilians who were moving from the base in Srebrenica to

 3     the base in Potocari?  Thank you.

 4        A.   I don't know what other witnesses said, but I know that what you

 5     just mentioned is not true.  There were dead people on the road, there

 6     were dead, tired people on the road.  That's what I saw with my own eyes.

 7     I don't know what other people said.  There was shelling.  And I have to

 8     say that I, in my immediate vicinity, have not seen a single UNPROFOR

 9     soldiers.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Today you stated that you saw your son on the

11     UNPROFOR trucks.  I apologise, but that's what you said.  So have you

12     seen on that road that you were covering on foot UNPROFOR vehicles and

13     UNPROFOR soldiers moving along the road on the UNPROFOR trucks and

14     UNPROFOR vehicles?  Thank you.

15        A.   That's true.  That's what I said and that's true.  Only two

16     UNPROFOR trucks had caught up with us and passed us.  It was about

17     1 and a half kilometre from the main base.  And on that truck there were

18     lots of people, not UNPROFOR soldiers, but civilians.  I don't know how

19     they got on that truck.  I can only assume that.  My son was there.  I

20     could see him very well because the tarpaulin had been torn off.  I also

21     saw another boy who used to spend time with him in Srebrenica.  They

22     waved to us and went on.  Then they entered the base of the UNPROFOR.

23     And what happened to them later, I don't know.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

Page 10053

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I only have 20 minutes so I would like you to tell the following:

 3     Mr. McCloskey, on page 59, line 15, ask you who separated the men.

 4             And on page 59, line 17, you said:

 5             I don't know.  I might make a mistake if I say it.  They were all

 6     in uniform and they were all identical.  They wore camouflage uniforms.

 7     For some of them you could conclude that they are from Serbia because

 8     they spoke Ekavian.

 9             Do you remember that that's what you said in line 17?  Thank you.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  My question is as follows:  Is it possible to

12     conclude that somebody hails from Serbia based on the accent if we know

13     that in the official use at the time in Republika Srpska the language was

14     Serbian, Ekavian?  Thank you.

15        A.   Sir, to whom should I explain that?  I cannot tell you with

16     absolute certainty whether somebody was from Serbia or from

17     Republika Srpska, as you call it, but there were people that we knew on

18     those barricades.  And I have to tell you:  I grew up there in

19     Republika Srpska.  This is my area.  There are very, very few people who

20     speak Ekavian there.  Those people there communicated among themselves,

21     they spoke to us, they swore at us.  So I think that I can conclude where

22     they came from.  They were all half crazy.  They looked at us as if we

23     were cattle in Potocari.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Mrs. Malagic, have you made a conclusion that they

25     came from Serbia simply based on what you heard them speaking?  Thank

Page 10054

 1     you.

 2        A.   It's not only my conclusions.  Sir, they came to evacuate us from

 3     Potocari, the buses came.  I said that already in my previous testimony.

 4     Those were the buses of the regular army.  And you know the regular army

 5     existed.  And those were the transport companies with headquarters in

 6     Serbia.  I emphasise that.  Titovo Uzice, the 7th of July Sabac, Strela

 7     from Valjevo, Lasta from Belgrade, do you think that I don't know that

 8     those buses came from Serbia on that very day, the buses that we haven't

 9     seen for the previous three years?  They came from Serbia.

10        Q.   Thank you, we are not going to waste time on this because we have

11     video shots about this evacuation.  But can you tell us whether today in

12     Bosnia instead of "kosta tovati [phoen]," people say

13     "kosta tirati [phoen]"; instead of "kori govati [phoen],"

14     "kori girati [phoen]"?  And can you make a conclusion solely on the basis

15     of this that you are hearing Croats speaking?  Thank you.

16        A.   Sir, nowadays in Bosnia everybody can do whatever they want and

17     that's why they are speaking that way.  That's why they used those words.

18     You know, now everything is small in Bosnia compared to the former

19     Yugoslavia.  Everybody is demanded their rights, everybody is demanding

20     their language, but only in Sarajevo.  Tell me, do they have the same

21     rights in Banja Luka?  Do they have the same rights in Mostar?  You know

22     very well about it, Mr. Tolimir.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Malagic, for this answer.  Now I would like to

24     ask you the following:  Since now you live in Vogosca, can you tell us

25     who used to live in those apartments in those places where now Muslims

Page 10055

 1     from Srebrenica live in Vogosca?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question was --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean who lived there before?

 5     Serbs lived there before.  But when the property was being returned, they

 6     all sold their apartments.  They sold them for money.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  But did they live in those apartments until they sold

 9     the apartments?  Thank you.

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Did you arrive into those apartments in 1995 after you fled from

12     the Srebrenica enclave?  Thank you.

13        A.   No.  I arrived there in 1996 in that apartment.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Since you are from Srebrenica, you know more about

15     those things.  Did Muslims and Serbs used to live together in Srebrenica

16     in 1992 when the war began?  We are not talking about that; now I'm

17     merely asking you about the co-existence.  Thank you.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  My question is:  If we are talking about the

20     community, whether it's a marriage or a community of people or community

21     of countries, is it necessary that both sides have goodwill to live

22     together?  Thank you.

23        A.   Yes.  Both sides need goodwill for that.  But neither of the

24     sides can force the other side to live with them if they don't want it.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 10056

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to show just one more

 2     document if we still have time.  Can we take a look at D74.  Thank you.

 3     Can we have page 31 in e-court.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And here you can see the title.  It's, "The Chronicle of our

 6     Cemetery."  And in this book we can find the attack on the village of

 7     Bjelovac, where Serbs used to live.  Then the village of Sikivici, in the

 8     Bratunac municipality.  And then if we take a look at the last paragraph,

 9     we can see the description of the attack on Kravica.  And it says:

10             Here in this case we are talking about purely Serbian area

11     consisting of several villages:  Kravica, Brana Bacici, Popovici,

12     Mandici, Opravcici, and others, where there were more than

13     2.300 inhabitants of Serbian ethnicity.  And that was the village with

14     the oldest Serbian school in the area, erected in 1838.

15             My question is as follows:  Do you know that both Muslims and

16     Serbs in the Srebrenica enclave fought each other and that the people in

17     Serbian villages endured the same hardships in their villages as the

18     hardships described by you that the Muslims endured?  Thank you.

19        A.   Yes, I know that.  However, we were in different positions.  When

20     Kravica was attacked, do you know that old grannies, 70 years old, went

21     to Kravica in order to find a piece of bread because they were hungry?

22     And you made us hungry.  Because we were encircled.  We didn't receive

23     enough humanitarian aid.  We had nothing.  People were dying of hunger at

24     the time.  I myself was lying down dying of hunger at the time.

25     Literally dying of hunger during the attack on Kravica.  So it happened

Page 10057

 1     only because of the hunger, because they had to go and either die hungry

 2     or from the bullet.  Nobody was sure whether they were going to live

 3     until tomorrow.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether those grannies carried

 5     weapons and whether it is possible that on the 7th, in Kravica, and you

 6     can read it here, I didn't want to read that, 38 Serbs were killed and

 7     more than 40 were wounded?  Thank you.

 8        A.   I know nothing about it.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would ask if the General could lower his voice.

11     I know it's late, but he's shouting.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, your last questions.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm not

14     shouting; that's the way I speak.  I apologise if the witness also

15     perceived it like that.  Mrs. Malagic, I don't want to ask her anything

16     else because a limit has been placed on my questions.  I'm grateful that

17     she came here to testify and I would like to ask her not to get angry

18     when I ask her about actual events that happened.  She can answer

19     whatever she wants.  Thank you.

20             Please don't be angry.  I simply had to ask you about the events

21     that took place on both sides, both the Serbian side and the Muslim side.

22             I have finished my cross-examination on behalf of the Defence.  I

23     have no more questions.  And I wish a safe journey home to Mrs. Malagic.

24     May God bless her and may she reach her home in peace.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 10058

 1             Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Malagic, first I would like to apologise that

 4     I misspoke your name earlier.  Thank you that you came here to The Hague

 5     again and that you are able to provide us with your knowledge.  Thank you

 6     very much again, and now you are free to return to your home, to your

 7     normal activities.  And the Court Usher will assist you.  Thank you very

 8     much again and all the best for your future.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to note again sometimes we come

12     under time pressure.  This is very unfortunate because both parties have

13     the right to put questions to the witness, but we had to observe -- we

14     had to observe that --

15             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm just talking, Mr. Tolimir, and addressing

17     both parties.

18             We should try to have an expeditious trial and focus on what

19     witnesses are called for.  And it is very unfortunate when we are under

20     these time constraints, especially because of an extended questioning

21     which is sometimes, in my view, not necessary.  I am very sorry about

22     that, but there are so many witnesses scheduled for one week and we

23     should try to come to an end.

24             We have one witness tomorrow and then the final examination of

25     Mr. Brunborg.  I will not mix up the names of the witnesses -- the expert

Page 10059

 1     witnesses again.

 2             Mr. Tolimir, you wanted to have the floor.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to say one

 4     thing.  If the Prosecutor knew that the witness had to go tonight, then I

 5     would like to know how come he had more time to ask his questions than

 6     me.  It was his witness.  And finally, I was limited to less than

 7     45 minutes, while he had whole session.  That's longer than 45 minutes.

 8     I think that's an hour and a half.  I don't know why in the end it turned

 9     out like that.  Of course, if we are in hurry, yes, okay, let us be in a

10     hurry.  I'll probably go to jail because of that.  But we have to be

11     equal in these proceedings.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you are right, Mr. Tolimir, that this was

13     an unfortunate situation, but you should take into account it was a

14     viva voce witness and not a 92 bis witness.  This is the difference.

15     There's nothing else in evidence than the examination of today.

16             And I would like to ask the Prosecution as well to focus on the

17     time.  And, of course, we ask the Prosecution to have a reserve witness

18     available if some examination is shorter than expected.  But this week is

19     really quite difficult because of the scheduling.

20             Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I actually feel more comfortable

22     this week because we have no risk of a gap and I think we've done that

23     deliberately because each week last time we were so worried about gaps

24     and we had to fill them as you saw.  So I think this is a -- Dr. Brunborg

25     may disagree with me, but we've done a pretty good job, and I've tried to

Page 10060

 1     stay under my time.  But we'll continue to work as best we can with the

 2     estimates that we're getting, and I think that we've done pretty well.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua.

 4             JUDGE MINDUA: [No interpretation]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have the English translation at the

 6     moment.  Please again.

 7             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Prosecutor has said that

 8     the president said everything, and I do agree with him.  I also

 9     understand that this was a very difficult week.  I would, nevertheless,

10     like to emphasise the fact that there is a transcript.  And I am

11     particularly unhappy with the testimony of Mrs. Malagic because obviously

12     she is a viva voce witness, but I also realise that she did not have

13     enough time -- or anyhow, the Defence did not have sufficient time.  And

14     I also wanted to ask some questions, but I had to -- I couldn't do it

15     because we arrived to the end our hearing of today.  So I understand, but

16     I hope that this will not happen in the future.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There should be no mistake.  She is here, she is

19     ready, she will be here tomorrow if necessary.  If you think these kind

20     of questions are necessary regarding the international community and the

21     break-up of the former Yugoslavia and deliberately trying to annoy a

22     witness --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Calm down.  Please calm down, McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If you think he has the right to repeatedly ask

25     questions that have been answered deliberately to annoy the witness, like

Page 10061

 1     he repeatedly did to the witness before and did to her, this is very

 2     annoying to especially Bosnian witnesses.  She is here, she's available,

 3     we can keep her here.  There's never been any agreement that she can't be

 4     here; I've just asked that we get done.  And if you think his questions

 5     are necessary and appropriate, she is here, ready to ask -- answer any

 6     questions.  I apologise, Your Honour, that you feel you don't have the

 7     ability to ask questions.  You do.  She is here.  We are not trying to

 8     rush anyone.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, then we received a different

10     message earlier.  It was our understanding that the witness has to leave

11     today.  You indicated that earlier during the cross-examination, and this

12     was the reason why I put such a pressure on the accused.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The witness can always stay, if it's necessary.

14     It -- it's a burden, as it -- of course it's a burden for this woman.  To

15     come here is a burden.  To relive this is a burden.  She can stay longer

16     if you wish.  I'm not the one that's making the rules on when a witness

17     can stay, but we will inform you of the situation, but I wouldn't ever

18     suggest that a witness cannot stay any longer.  And as you know, we

19     always have made an effort to bring witnesses back, certainly not a

20     witness -- but if -- I'd like a showing of proof from General Tolimir

21     what he needs to ask this witness about, and of course the Judges,

22     absolutely, anything you need to see.

23             I would have liked to have been able to go into a little more

24     detail to give you a little bit more of what happened, but I did what you

25     asked me to do and I centred on the guts of it and I think you got a good

Page 10062

 1     picture of it, and so I was happy with that.  And 40 minutes of

 2     cross-examination, when you look at where he was going, was sufficient,

 3     but she can be here.  And I apologise for getting excited, but this is --

 4     I am not trying -- some master controller back here that is not allowing

 5     the Court to see things.  And we are available here for the Chambers, and

 6     she can be here if necessary.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, there have been incidences that we

 8     were told a witness has to leave at a certain time on a certain day.  I'm

 9     very happy to hear that.  We have to make -- keep a balance between time

10     spent here and of course focusing on the relevant parts of the testimony.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  You may be getting information from the witness

12     section who has logistical issues and plane flights and witnesses that

13     have meetings or family events or some crucial thing.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, Mr. McCloskey, I'm only referring to the

15     information we received by Prosecutors.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I don't think "have to," or if you are ever

17     hearing that from us, I hope you don't.  And it's never meant to be in

18     that -- even if I say it's essential that she gets back, that means I

19     don't want her to have to stay any longer.  But any witness can come back

20     and is available to you.  And I apologise if I've left any kind of

21     pressure on you in that regard.  I do not mean to.  If they make it this

22     far, they -- these witnesses are available and ready to follow through

23     with it.  I guarantee you that.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.  To make a long

25     discussion short, I would like to ask Mr. Tolimir if he has some

Page 10063

 1     cross-examination left related to the testimony we have heard in the

 2     examination-in-chief.

 3             In that case, I would like to ask the Prosecution that the

 4     witness will be available, if you have such kind of questions.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I thank

 6     Mr. McCloskey.  The Defence does not want to make any kind of difference

 7     here.  All we want is to have an equal position in respect to the

 8     Prosecution.  I have no desire to have this witness return, since you

 9     have released the witness, you wished her a happy return home, as I did,

10     so I do not wish to have her re-called.  As far as I'm concerned, this

11     particular matter is closed.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You will observe that in future more carefully,

13     also from the Bench.

14             Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I'm sure Mr. Gajic will agree with me:

16     Before the witness came on, I said, How long are you going to need with

17     her?  I hope you can finish tonight.  There was never, You can't go on.

18     Or any of that.  I don't do that.  It's not my position to do that.

19     But -- and he knows that, and he said he was hopeful that they would

20     finish tonight too, but he didn't know because he's not the lawyer here.

21     So I just want to make sure there's -- no one is trying to, you know,

22     limit anyone on fair questioning.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we -- for today, we reach an agreement.

24     I'm grateful for that.  We are over time now and we have to adjourn.  We

25     resume tomorrow in the afternoon, 2.15.  And I hope very much that both

Page 10064

 1     parties do their best to enable the next witness and Dr. Brunborg to

 2     finish their testimony tomorrow, otherwise one of them have to stay over

 3     the weekend.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Judge Mindua, I apologise, for getting

 5     excited.  The emotional element of this witness, in my past of knowing

 6     her, has been a strain, and I fully respect your views and I thank you

 7     for your guidance.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That was a good word at the

 9     end of today's hearing.

10             We adjourn and resume tomorrow.  Thank you.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.11 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day

13                           of February, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.