Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10065

 1                           Thursday, 17 February 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6     Our apologies for the delayed start.  There were other matters to deal

 7     with.  Before the next witness is being called in, I would, on behalf of

 8     the Chamber, like to put some comments related to yesterday's hearing on

 9     the record.

10             The Chamber would like to make one final remark on the discussion

11     that occurred at the end of last night's session.  The Chamber is

12     concerned about the position of the OTP.  At page 26, line 18, of the

13     transcript of yesterday, the Prosecution advised that, and I quote:  "It

14     is absolutely essential that the witness be able to leave tonight."

15             The Chamber was guided by this during the session.  Later, after

16     the departure of the witness, the OTP told us and the Defence that the

17     witness would be available today for further cross-examination.  This is

18     a serious contradiction.  It must be borne in mind that the Chamber

19     relies on information provided by the Prosecution regarding the

20     availability of witnesses.

21             Furthermore, the Chamber would like to stress that in accordance

22     with Article 20 of the Statute, this trial must be expeditious and also

23     fair with full respect for the rights of the accused and due regard for

24     the protection of witnesses.  The Chamber will do its utmost to ensure

25     this, and the parties should also take this into account during

Page 10066

 1     examination of witnesses throughout the proceedings.

 2             The Chamber can't accept the position of the Prosecutor that the

 3     accused has to show of proof what he needs to ask the witness about, and

 4     this is taken from the record of yesterday: "... and of course the

 5     Judges, absolutely ..." We don't understand quite well what Mr. McCloskey

 6     was referring to yesterday.  But on the record we have a clear message

 7     received.  And therefore a last comment:  The Chamber doesn't accept the

 8     attitude in which the Prosecutor yesterday was addressing the Chamber

 9     after the remark of Judge Mindua.  Although Mr. McCloskey offered his

10     apologies, the Chamber is concerned about this situation.  We have to

11     consider which measures have to be taken to make sure that this will not

12     happen again.

13             I hope that it's a clear message toward the Prosecution.

14             Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't want to discuss this matter today.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I understand that, Mr. President.  I did want to

18     place on the record, as you can see, Mr. McCloskey is not here today and

19     so he is not obviously in a position to address the Trial Chamber.  I did

20     have an opportunity to speak with him yesterday, and he does and I think

21     he has expressed his regret in the manner in which he addressed the

22     Trial Chamber and in particular His Honourable Judge Mindua pursuant to

23     those comments.  He couldn't be here today because of a planned mission

24     that was scheduled well in advance of the proceedings yesterday and

25     obviously today, and I do - and I will abide by your instruction not to

Page 10067

 1     address the issue further - but I do want to briefly stress that under no

 2     circumstances would the Prosecution suggest to the Trial Chamber a course

 3     of action to take with respect to a witness as it concerns the fairness

 4     of the proceedings.  That is inconsistent with the rights of the accused

 5     and also that invades the prerogative of the Trial Chamber to determine

 6     the appropriate course of action in these proceedings.  I don't believe

 7     that Mr. McCloskey intended to suggest that to the Trial Chamber, and I

 8     don't think that any of the prior conduct on behalf of the Prosecution

 9     was directed to that end.  So I just wanted to make that clear, and I'll

10     leave it at that.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua -- Judge Nyambe.

12             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think we can

13     appreciate your comments, Mr. Vanderpuye, and your intervention, but in

14     view of the fact that you were not present in court when this took place,

15     I hardly believe you are in -- I don't think you are in a position to

16     read the mind of Mr. McCloskey to tell us as to what he meant and what he

17     did not mean.  We observed his conduct in court yesterday.  So we

18     appreciate your intervention, as indeed we would expect from a team

19     spirit.  Thank you.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Judge --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed this is the position of the Chamber.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I did -- if I didn't

23     mention before, I did have an opportunity to discuss the proceedings with

24     Mr. McCloskey after the conclusion of proceedings and I of course have

25     read the transcript with respect to them and that's essentially the basis

Page 10068

 1     of my understanding of what happened.  Obviously I'm not sitting on the

 2     Bench and I wasn't in court, so I don't know what your impressions were

 3     with respect to it.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, we should stop the discussion

 5     here.  We don't want to lose court time.

 6             And the next witness should be brought in, please.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mrs. Ibrahimefendic.  Welcome to

 9     the Tribunal.  Please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is

10     shown to you now.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  TEUFIKA IBRAHIMEFENDIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

16     yourself comfortable.

17             First I would like to express my apologies that we had a delayed

18     start.  We were occupied by another matter.

19             Ms. Hasan has questions for you during the examination-in-chief

20     by the Prosecution.

21             Ms. Hasan.

22             MS. HASAN:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours, and

23     everyone else in and around the courtroom.

24                           Examination by Ms. Hasan:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Madam Witness.  Before I ask you my questions,

Page 10069

 1     could you please --

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   Would you please state your name for the record.

 4        A.   I am Teufika Ibrahimefendic.  I'm a psychotherapist from the

 5     centre for therapy and rehabilitation called Vive Zene from Tuzla.

 6     Anything else?

 7        Q.   Ms. Ibrahimefendic, have you recently had the opportunity to

 8     listen to your testimony from the Krstic case?

 9        A.   I listened to the entire testimony from 2002 the day before

10     yesterday, this is, from the Krstic case.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  From 2000.

12             MS. HASAN:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Was the evidence that you gave in the Krstic case true and

14     accurate to the best of your knowledge?

15        A.   This testimony was from ten years ago.  It reflected the

16     situation as it was at the time.  It reflected the state of the

17     traumatised persons at that time, and it reflected on their suffering and

18     what I was doing during those years with them and what I managed to say

19     in court about my work and about my experiences on that matter.

20        Q.   So in that context and given your knowledge and experiences at

21     that time, were the answers that you gave true and accurate?

22        A.   Of course they were true and accurate.  But if we observe the

23     traumatic process over the past ten years, you can add to the state the

24     suffering and the symptoms that were evident at the time, you can add a

25     large number of facts, you can describe their situation right now, the

Page 10070

 1     state of suffering right now, their individual needs, their individual

 2     suffering.  That's on the one hand.  On the other hand, you could also

 3     describe the social dimension of the trauma or the context in which they

 4     live, actually in which all of us are living, including myself, over

 5     there.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I'll be asking you some questions about that in just

 7     a moment.

 8             MS. HASAN:  At this stage, Mr. President, if I can offer into

 9     evidence the transcript of Ms. Ibrahimefendic from -- of her testimony in

10     the Krstic case, and that's 65 ter 1574, into evidence.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be received as an exhibit.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

13     Exhibit P1817.  Thank you.

14             MS. HASAN:  And with your leave, Mr. President, if I may now read

15     a summary of that testimony.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Please, go ahead.

17             MS. HASAN:  Ms. Teufika Ibrahimefendic is a Bosnian Muslim born

18     in 1948.  She is a psychotherapist who has undergone medical and social

19     work training.  Educated in psychology and pedagogy at the University of

20     Sarajevo, Ms. Ibrahimefendic went on to study war trauma and the

21     psychosocial counselling of traumatised women and children.

22             After working as a pediatric nurse and a psychiatric social

23     worker at the clinical centre at the hospital in Tuzla,

24     Ms. Ibrahimefendic assumed the position of the co-ordinator of Vive Zene,

25     a multidisciplinary organisation for the treatment of victims of war

Page 10071

 1     trauma.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down a bit while reading.  Thank you.

 3             MS. HASAN:  In addition to co-ordinating the Vive Zene programme,

 4     Ms. Ibrahimefendic treated women and children who were victims of the

 5     1995 events in Potocari and the separation of the women and children from

 6     the men and boys.

 7             The women she treated exhibited an exceptionally high level of

 8     trauma.  At the time of her testimony in the Krstic trial in 2000,

 9     Ms. Ibrahimefendic reported that the women and children of Srebrenica

10     were still suffering from the trauma which manifested itself in vivid

11     memories, nightmares, fear, irritability, nervousness, aggressiveness,

12     loss of concentration, avoidance, and in some cases, depression, apathy,

13     passivity, as well as grief, loss of motivation, and the will to live.

14             Having treated other victims of trauma, Ms. Ibrahimefendic

15     explained that the trauma suffered by the Srebrenica women was unique.

16     The Srebrenica syndrome, as their trauma is described, is a consequence

17     of the disappearance of their male family members, including their

18     fathers, son, brothers, husbands, and uncles.  Not knowing the truth of

19     what happened to these men and their search for an explanation has been

20     exhausting and discouraging for these women, who also carry with them a

21     profound sense of guilt for the fate of these men.

22             The children of Srebrenica, having witnessed the separation of

23     their brothers and fathers, and having lived the adverse conditions in

24     Potocari, also exhibited a high level of trauma.  In addition to the

25     trauma-induced symptoms experienced by these children, Ms. Ibrahimefendic

Page 10072

 1     observed that the absence of male role models in their lives stripped

 2     them of a sense of identity and impacted their enjoyment of life.

 3             The Srebrenica events left a lasting impact on the social lives

 4     of the surviving women and children.  Ms. Ibrahimefendic gave evidence

 5     about the difficulties the women and children have encountered in

 6     re-establishing both familial and community relationships.  The guilt the

 7     women of Srebrenica feel prevents them from declaring their missing

 8     husbands dead; a declaration that is a prerequisite for getting

 9     remarried.  The difficulties in re-establishing marital relationships are

10     compounded by the scarcity of men living in those areas.

11     Ms. Ibrahimefendic also testified about the changing societal role of

12     these women after the 1995 Srebrenica events.

13             The victims that had undergone therapy showed significant

14     improvement.  However, Ms. Ibrahimefendic qualified that their condition

15     oscillates and that regressions in their progress take place in some

16     circumstances.  Though optimistic, Ms. Ibrahimefendic anticipated that

17     the children of Srebrenica would probably continue to face developmental

18     problems.  She testified that the road to recovery of these women and

19     children who have received treatment is long.  And in some cases, despite

20     the therapy, recovery was not likely.  She also noted that there were

21     those women and children who did not receive any therapy at all and

22     others who did not want any assistance.

23             When asked by the Honourable Judge Rodrigues in the Krstic case,

24     Ms. Ibrahimefendic was not able to say how many generations it would take

25     for normal life to resume for these victims.

Page 10073

 1        Q.   Ms. Ibrahimefendic, since your last testimony in 2000, could you

 2     briefly outline the work you have engaged in?

 3        A.   During the past ten years, the Vive Zene organisation became a

 4     more professional organisation, which means that it started to work not

 5     only on individual wounds, not only with individual patients, women, but

 6     it also became active at the level of the community groups, families, and

 7     also on the education within the community, because there was a level of

 8     social destruction at the level of the community and the trauma.  So

 9     there is a multidisciplinary team in Vive Zene that tried to create a

10     special programme in order to work on recovery from trauma, not only at

11     the level of the individual, but at the level of the entire community.

12             In the meantime, I personally went through a lot of training,

13     many conferences, meetings, conferences, and discussions with experts who

14     deal with trauma.  And in particular over the last decade or decade and a

15     half, the world is beginning to look differently at traumatised persons

16     because in the most recent wars a lot of civilians were casualties, so

17     their suffering could not be marginalised.  It could not be sidetracked.

18             So at the international level, this matter became very important

19     for the recovery of any community that had gone through war.  I would

20     just like to add that this means that science has made a lot of

21     advancements in the treatment of trauma.  New diagnoses have been

22     developed.  Not only has PTSD been linked with traumatised persons which

23     as a consequence of war -- occurred as a consequence of war, but trauma

24     has began to be looked at as a kind of process, as a process that is a

25     continual one.  This means that even though the war has stopped, the

Page 10074

 1     traumatic occurrence continues to develop within the people who are

 2     living in that society.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mrs. Ibrahimefendic, sorry, Ms. -- I realise that

 4     you have to tell us a lot about the development of this scientific area.

 5     On the other hand, Ms. Hasan has put to you a very specific question.

 6     And the Chamber would be happy if you could respond to that.

 7             Could you briefly outline the work you have engaged in since

 8     2000; that was the question.  And it would be helpful if you could focus

 9     on that, especially to save some time.

10             MS. HASAN:  Perhaps I can just restate the question a different

11     way.

12        Q.   Have you continued to hold the position of co-ordinator of the

13     Vive Zene programme since 2000?

14        A.   I'm still the co-ordinator of the psychosocial programme.  I

15     continue to work with clients, I continue to work with families of

16     missing persons.  I am still working with women who were raped or persons

17     who went through different kind of torture.  I'm a member of the

18     Vive Zene multidisciplinary team.  And in the meantime, I have

19     specialised in trauma; I'm trauma treatment specialist.  In the meantime,

20     I have also become an educator, a trainer, for other professionals in

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I am also conducting trainings for victims and even

22     professionals, investigators, researchers, policemen, people who are

23     taking statements from victims who could be potential victims, because

24     the OSCE, the organisation of the OSCE in Bosnia-Herzegovina, asked the

25     organisation, and I'm the co-ordinator for that programme, to carry out

Page 10075

 1     trainings with prosecutors, investigators, and potential victims in order

 2     to motivate people to begin to testify.

 3             So I work not only at the level of the federation, I worked in

 4     Republika Srpska as well.  I worked in the Bijeljina Prosecutor's Office,

 5     the Brcko district, together with victims, investigators, and my goal was

 6     to educate them about trauma so that they could know what a traumatic

 7     event or suffering has -- what sort of an effect has on people so that

 8     they could work with such people.

 9             So this is a brief summary of all the work that I have been

10     carrying out over the past few years.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And during your work, have you treated women and

12     children affected by the war from all over Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13        A.   I worked with women, children, men who came from throughout

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina who had experienced different traumatic events,

15     because they lived in different parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16        Q.   And did you continue to treat the women -- the Bosnian Muslim

17     women and children from Srebrenica?

18        A.   Women from Srebrenica were our clients as early as 1994, even

19     before the fall of Srebrenica.  We had a group of women that were staying

20     as our inpatients while their husbands were in Srebrenica and I was a

21     witness of all of their hopes that they would come back and that, as they

22     said, Srebrenica would not fall.  I was also working with them on crisis

23     intervention, because they were afraid, they were in a panic at the time.

24     And when the rest of their families were transferred to Tuzla, when

25     members of their families were at the Tuzla Airport, members of our team

Page 10076

 1     were transporting them to the airport to meet up with their relatives.

 2     And then we monitored them throughout that whole period afterwards

 3     whether they had found their husbands, their fathers, their brothers, and

 4     so on and so forth.

 5             So we have been following up on these women and observing them

 6     throughout this whole process that they are going through.

 7        Q.   I'd like to focus on these women and children of Srebrenica.  And

 8     I'm going to ask you my question but I'll preface my question first by

 9     asking you:  Do you recall testifying in the Krstic case about the

10     suffering experienced by these women from the July 1995 events, and in

11     particular I'm talking about the problems that made the suffering of

12     these Srebrenica women and children different from the other trauma

13     victims?  Do you recall testifying on that issue in the Krstic case?

14        A.   Yes, of course I do remember that.  Even today after 15 or

15     16 years the women still mention Potocari.  They still talk about the

16     times when they were being separated from their husbands.  They talk

17     about the time when they were detained in Potocari, about their departure

18     to Tuzla, and so on.  But in their daily lives as well, they are reminded

19     of those times as well, because the graves are still being dug up, the

20     process of identification is still going on.  They are still under

21     stress.  The process of grieving has not started yet.  They are still

22     searching for their dear ones.  The women in Tuzla on every 11th of the

23     month go out and protest; they want to focus attention of the politicians

24     and all of those others who have already for gotten about them to focus

25     these people on themselves.  They cannot forget their victims.  So all

Page 10077

 1     those images from Potocari are still happening.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, this Trial Chamber has heard evidence of the

 3     human remains that have been exhumed from the mass graves and that with

 4     the assistance of DNA analysis, some of these bodies and body parts have

 5     now been identified.  Is it -- are you aware of this process of

 6     identification?

 7        A.   The identification process is always a public one.  Everything

 8     that happens is broadcast in the media, where mass graves are found, how

 9     many have been identified.  So that I am updated about it, on the one

10     hand.  On the other hand, we participate in numerous conferences where

11     missing persons are discussed, their suffering.  Very frequently foreign

12     organisations and domestic organisations organise meetings, conferences

13     on that subject, results are summarised, how far we have come, what has

14     been done.  So these are all things that have to do with the exhumations

15     and the process of identification.

16             At such times perhaps our clients from 15 years ago ask us for

17     assistance.  They even ask us to provide an escort when they have to go

18     for identification or when they have to ask -- when they are asked to

19     recognise articles or items that have been found.  They have the feeling

20     that they cannot really bear it, so they do ask the social workers, the

21     psychologists, and even doctors, for support, to go with them for support

22     so that they would be able to face the bones, I would say, because then

23     this is the final facing of the truth.

24             So what struck me the most is that in a documentary film that was

25     made, when a woman finds the bones of her son, she says, I believe in

Page 10078

 1     science but I don't believe my very own eyes, looking at the bones that

 2     were spread out on a piece of newspaper, paper.  They were arranged on

 3     it.  So these moments again cause upset and so in a way our whole team is

 4     there to provide support for these women whenever they need it.

 5        Q.   Now, based on your observations which come from your treatment of

 6     these women and children of Srebrenica, now that some of these women have

 7     had their -- the death of their relatives confirmed, have they been able

 8     to face that reality of death?  Are their lives now back to normal?

 9        A.   When you lose a loved one through normal losses, you go through a

10     process of grieving.  And this process of grieving has stages, from shock

11     and disbelief that it happened, to the gradual acceptance of this loss.

12     And after a certain period of time, you get back in your normal life and

13     you start functioning normally again.  However, when we're dealing with

14     traumatic losses, then the process is a lot more complicated, primarily

15     because they are missing people and you don't know what happened to them.

16     So people will be burdened by the circumstances of their death, how they

17     died, whether they were killed, whether they were executed, whether they

18     had been tortured, hungry, thirsty, et cetera.

19             So the grieving process can only start once you face and see the

20     mortal remains that have been found.  But whenever you -- whenever a

21     person is identified and certain procedures are carried out and the

22     family is informed that a person had been found and identified, then you

23     establish the date for the funeral and then these people would go through

24     the same process as if these people had just disappeared or just died.

25     So they will go through the stages of disbelief, guilt, anger, all over

Page 10079

 1     again.  On the one hand, they will accept these remains as belonging to

 2     that person and on the one hand they believe that this person is indeed

 3     dead, but there is still some hope left in them that this is not the

 4     truth.  They accept these remains as something sacred and frightening at

 5     the same time.  They are sacred because they had been told that the

 6     remains belonged to their loved ones, and at the same time this terrifies

 7     them because the knowledge means that there is no more hope, that there

 8     is nothing left to wait for and death is final.

 9             So on the one hand they can finally say, It's fine and there will

10     be a place where I can bury them, I'll be able to visit the grave and

11     I'll be able to go through the usual rituals that are organised after

12     somebody dies in a regular way; and then after the remains are found,

13     then certain rituals, religious rituals, are carried out.

14             So in this way one could say that they face the death, and then

15     the grieving process begins.  And this process is very complicated.  It's

16     not simple at all.  Many women have psychological twins to themselves,

17     like they are unwilling to let go of that person.  They dream about them,

18     they talk to them.  There are even certain objects that link them to the

19     missing people or the dead people such as photographs or some objects

20     that were a part of them.  Even children can become what we call a

21     linking object if there are children who had survived.  So the grieving

22     process is not the same as what it would be in case of a normal death, in

23     case of a death that we all might face.

24        Q.   And in terms of the psychological impact, you previously

25     testified about the symptoms these women and children were experiencing,

Page 10080

 1     including the nightmares, the irritability, the avoidance, depression,

 2     and so on; are these women and children -- are those symptoms still

 3     persisting in these women and children?

 4        A.   Well, the initial symptoms are those of reliving the event as if

 5     the event was happening at this very moment.  People experience

 6     nightmares and then there are other intrusive symptoms that we discuss

 7     such as insomnia, anxiety, aggression, anger, and so on.  After this many

 8     years, it can happen that even professionals or the women are able to

 9     connect their initial symptoms with the original traumatic event that

10     happened 15 years ago.  Now they are a lot more depressed and more

11     isolated.  They are bothered by crowds or company, they can't be in a

12     group.  There's a lot of distrust, primarily distrust towards one's own

13     competency than distrust of others.  They feel that others don't

14     understand what had happened.  They feel like they've been left to their

15     own devices.  On the one hand they feel isolated and feel empty.  They

16     feel like they can't experience love and can't experience joy and yet

17     they can't experience grief either.

18             Some of them are hypersensitive, one could say, and some are

19     hyposensitive; so some are too sensitive and some not enough.  Among

20     those who are hypersensitive may have high blood pressure.  There are a

21     lot of psychosomatic problems, so they will frequently pay visits to

22     doctors.  And sometimes the doctors or the social workers might be a

23     problem because they are not sensitive enough and they treat them as

24     patients.  And sometimes it's enough if they just ask them, Where are you

25     from, what have you gone through?  So a conversation, a simple

Page 10081

 1     conversation, might be a lot more effective than the bunch of medicines

 2     they are given.

 3             And I would just like to add that there are many of them who are

 4     apathetic, depressed; not sad, because sadness can be treated with

 5     medicine.  Sadness is treated by sharing things, by meeting with people.

 6     There are lots of problems in the family, lots of problems with children,

 7     because some of these children have grown up, they are adolescents, and

 8     the culture is such that those who are not present are not discussed,

 9     they're not talked about.  So there are a lot of children who have no

10     information about their fathers.  They don't know where their fathers

11     went missing.

12             Three days ago a woman came to see me - this was before I came to

13     The Hague - and her 16-and-a-half-year-old daughter got married.  She was

14     ten months old when she arrived from Zepa with her mother and she had no

15     photograph of her father or anything.  And the mother, because of her own

16     suffering, never had the energy to tell her about her father, to tell her

17     about what he was like, or to tell her what she had heard about the

18     circumstances of his death.  So the girl went to Srebrenica to the

19     registry, herself, and she asked the municipality to provide her with a

20     photograph of her father and then she got very angry with her mother and

21     left home.  She told her mother, Everything is more important to you than

22     I am.

23             So there are a lot of problems with children now, because these

24     children never process the loss rationally.  They only listen to the

25     stories of the adults.  They were flooded emotionally, but depending on

Page 10082

 1     the age, they were not able to process this rationally or mentally.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand the last

 3     sentence.

 4             MS. HASAN:

 5        Q.   Ms. Ibrahimefendic, you have spoken a little bit about the

 6     breakdown of the relationships at the family level.  I'd just like to ask

 7     you to tell us briefly about the relationships that exist at a community

 8     level based on your observations and interactions with these women and

 9     children.  And if you can just talk about the period from 2000 until the

10     present day, your knowledge from that period of time, because the

11     evidence you gave in the Krstic case is evidence in this case, so we

12     don't need to repeat that.  Thank you.

13        A.   If I understood you correctly, you want me to tell you what's

14     happening at the level of the society, what changes happened?

15        Q.   Correct.  How are the July 1995 events experienced by these women

16     and children affecting the relationships at the community level?

17        A.   The loss of such a large number of people in a day or two or

18     three had a huge impact on the whole community, particularly because all

19     these women arrived to Tuzla, they were accepted, and they survived.

20     They made their decisions later to go to other towns or to other

21     countries outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So not only were

22     individuals destroyed, but all of society was destroyed, at the social,

23     political, material, legal level.  So society didn't have the capacity to

24     handle all these problems, all the difficulties that happened, and

25     society didn't provide adequate support and help at the time, the support

Page 10083

 1     that was needed in this sequence of traumas.

 2             And many families from Srebrenica, those who survived, started

 3     thinking about going abroad.  A lot of my clients who were treated with

 4     us in 1995, 1996, and 1997 left Bosnia-Herzegovina and today live all

 5     over the world.  Those who stayed decided not to return because what

 6     happened was -- was an extreme traumatic event.  So returning to the

 7     place where all this happened was horrifying to them and it was

 8     traumatic.  And the women, a lot of them, didn't dare return because they

 9     were afraid.  Some did return.  Some returned.  But some continued living

10     in Tuzla or elsewhere.

11             However, there's a problem with their identity.  They don't know

12     who they are anymore, not even the children.  Even though they might have

13     lived in Tuzla for 15 years, when I asked them, Where are you from?  The

14     reply will be, I'm from Srebrenica.  And that means that they haven't

15     accepted where they are and they haven't integrated in the place where

16     they are living.  A part of their former identity is something they

17     cannot forget and they continue to suffer because of Srebrenica, I think

18     continue to think about what life was like before and how they lived

19     before.

20             The discussions among the surviving women whose husbands

21     disappeared are very characteristic.  In 2008 and 2009 until last year, I

22     worked with a group of women whose husbands went missing, and among them

23     were women who had one or more family member go missing.  At the

24     beginning, they all said things like, I found my husband, I found his

25     head, I found his thigh bone, these weren't my husband's teeth, and so

Page 10084

 1     on.  So the contents of the conversations that they have amongst

 2     themselves is still horrifying.  And then you can imagine what goes on in

 3     the children's heads, what's happening to them.

 4        Q.   And I'd like to now ask you about those children of Srebrenica.

 5     And, again, this is something that you discussed in your prior testimony,

 6     the impact of the children, so I'd like you to restrict your answer from

 7     your -- the observations you have coming from your treatment of these

 8     children post-2000.

 9             And I'd like to ask you:  These surviving children of Srebrenica

10     who, if I may say so, are the future of this group, can you tell us how

11     the disappearance of the male population, be it their fathers, their

12     brothers, uncles, cousins, the traditional providers in the patriarchal

13     society that they live in, their leaders, and their role models, how does

14     the absence of that part of their population affect their lives or --

15     affect their lives today?

16        A.   If during their development the children didn't have any models

17     to identify with who would be the surviving men, or closer relatives,

18     uncles, and so on, and if they didn't have the opportunity to share their

19     experiences, the children will be rather lost and confused in all this

20     chaos.  Older adolescents act as if nothing happened, so the family

21     members thought wrongly that they didn't feel anything.  However, it was

22     just too difficult for them to face this because in a way they were

23     escaping from all of this.  Younger children soaked in the older people's

24     emotions, and when I talk to them individually and asked them whether

25     they knew anything, whether they heard anything about their fathers, they

Page 10085

 1     would say things like, My family thinks I don't hear anything, that I'm

 2     asleep, but I can hear everything.  I know that they found him, I know

 3     that they went to identify him, and so on.

 4             So there's this discussion with children.  And children between

 5     the ages of five and ten can't understand the concept of death as being

 6     something final.  Between the ages of five and nine, they think that

 7     death is a reversible thing and that those people who are now listed as

 8     dead will appear.  There are children who have a lot of fantasy because

 9     as they have a lack of real information, real explanations, then in their

10     imagination, they imagine their father, what he was like, what he looked

11     like, and so on, and sometimes this can be very dangerous.

12             And I have dealt with some cases and talked about this with some

13     of my colleagues who work with children who say that children, in a lack

14     of support and a lack of real information or because their mothers are

15     being overprotective because they think that these children are incapable

16     of handling such information, are in fact causing more damage.  And as

17     some of them grow, grow up, they are very concerned about their

18     appearance.  They think that they will be very strong.  And when we ask

19     them why they are taking so much care of their bodies and why they want

20     to be so strong, they will mainly say that they don't know.  But what's

21     behind all this, in fact, is fear.  They feel afraid, they feel

22     threatened, even though there is no threat, there is no real threat.

23     However, some things that they didn't experience also feel threatened.

24        Q.   And the impact that you have just described on the children, is

25     that based on the -- your discussions with these children during the

Page 10086

 1     course of their treatment -- during the course of your treatment of them?

 2        A.   It is based on conversations.  What I'm saying now is based on my

 3     personal experience from my practice.  I can give you an example.  A

 4     mother brought in a young boy in 1997.  He was five years old at the

 5     time.  And last year she brought him in because he wasn't doing well at

 6     school, he couldn't focus, he couldn't study.  He was always in his room,

 7     and he was always on the computer.  He wasn't leaving the house or didn't

 8     have any friends.  And when he came to therapy, I needed quite a lot of

 9     time to gain his trust so he would tell me anything at all about himself.

10     It was very difficult, so I asked him to draw something for me.

11             He is now in secondary school.  And the drawing that he did was

12     one that frightened me personally because it was the picture of a ghost

13     and he said that this ghost was always present in his room, always

14     standing in a corner, and that he sometimes talks to the ghost, and so

15     on.  However, when I tried to explain this to the mother, she denied all

16     of this because on the outside he was very well developed, he was very

17     handsome.

18             And I would say that he's a psychiatric case.  He needed the help

19     of a psychiatrist.  He was functioning at two levels.  There was one part

20     that he exhibited to the outside, that he exhibited to his friends.  He

21     talks to them to the degree that is necessary to him.  He goes to school,

22     he ignores the professors, doesn't talk to them much.  And then he comes

23     home in his inner world and then within himself there's this sense of

24     terror that's constantly present.  There's intense suffering, intense

25     turmoil within him.  And one could say that for him there are two

Page 10087

 1     realities:  One, his inner reality that only he knows about, that only he

 2     is in contact with; and one that the others can't see.  And in order to

 3     make peace between these two realities, one needs to handle these

 4     horrific images.  One should share these horrific images with somebody,

 5     talk to somebody about them.  However, from the very beginning, he is

 6     completely closed up and he is quiet.

 7             And another thing that's interesting, and the reason I mentioned

 8     him, is that he was a very hyperactive child when he first came to see us

 9     in 1997.  He was very naughty.  It was very difficult to calm him down.

10     At the time, he was one of the most hyperactive children.  And now he has

11     turned into somebody who is completely closed up, who doesn't communicate

12     anymore, and who is practically incapable of establishing contact with

13     others.  He is afraid of going outside.  He is afraid of groups of

14     people, and so on.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Ms. Ibrahimefendic, could you tell us if there's been

16     any decrease or diminution of the impact on these women and children

17     since you last testified in July of 2000?

18        A.   Whether the impact of the war has diminished on women and

19     children, well, that's a very complicated question because if we start

20     from the theory that trauma develops not only as a result of the initial

21     event but that it continues and that in this way it is reflected in

22     various sequences, that is, it has its own shape in the various

23     sequences, then it's very difficult to say whether the situation has

24     improved.

25             However, one can say that I'm personally very much engaged in

Page 10088

 1     seeing what helped these women survive, which psychological mechanisms

 2     gave them the strength to go through all of this, to continue with their

 3     lives, to assume the roles that were suddenly imposed upon them.  And a

 4     lot of women have shown that in their recovery they have set goals for

 5     themselves and they relied upon these goals that they were supposed to

 6     achieve.  They used various psychological mechanisms in order to protect

 7     themselves from the pain that they were experiencing.  The initial denial

 8     and avoidance to think about the events that happened, even though these

 9     are negative mechanisms, they helped them continue their lives.

10             However, parallel with the treatment of their individual wounds,

11     it is very important to monitor the processes that are happening in

12     society at the economic, social, and other levels, on the legal level,

13     for example, to see how far the processing of war crimes has gone.

14             So the process of the trauma continues but now it has a different

15     shape.  And capacities are being created for those who have developed

16     these mechanisms to be able to continue handling the events that are

17     currently happening.

18             However, I would like to add that those who have still not found

19     their relatives, it's as if time has stopped for them.  And these

20     families, together with their children, have a special traumatic process

21     that they are going through.  Their children are living the lives of

22     their parents, namely, and in the lives of those families, there's only

23     the past and the present.  And the children are constantly in the

24     situation that the mothers are helpless and they are those who are to

25     provide their mothers strength to overcome this helplessness, but when

Page 10089

 1     there is an identification, for example, the past becomes the present and

 2     all the capacities for a future are destroyed.  There is no longer any

 3     future.  There is no vision of the future.

 4             It's very interesting when I ask, Can you imagine yourself where

 5     you will be in five years' time?  And she would say, I don't know.  They

 6     don't have any plans; they don't dare to plan, to make plans.  They

 7     cannot imagine without fear, for example, that in five years my son will

 8     graduate from university.  No.  For them, this is something that is

 9     alien.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan, I'm very sorry, I have to interrupt at

11     this point in time.  We must have our first break earlier than usual

12     because I have a very urgent commitment in another Chamber.  We must have

13     our break now, and we will resume five minutes past 4.00.

14             MS. HASAN:  Thank you, Your Honour

15                           --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan, please carry on.

18             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I have no further questions for this

19     witness.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

21             Ms. Ibrahimefendic, now Mr. Tolimir is conducting his

22     cross-examination.

23             Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             I would like to greet Ms. Ibrahimefendic.  I would like to wish

Page 10090

 1     her a pleasant stay amongst us.  I wish for peace in this house.  And I

 2     would like for the trial today, as well as the entire proceedings, to end

 3     as God wills and not as I will.  Thank you.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 5        Q.   I have a few questions.  First of all, I read your statement that

 6     you gave on the 20th of June, 2000, which doesn't contain as much data as

 7     you presented during this examination-in-chief.  The other thing is, did

 8     the Prosecution ever ask you to write an expert report, and did you do

 9     that?  Because that would be of more interest also to the Trial Chamber,

10     to the accused, because then they would also have available the data that

11     you are talking about.  Thank you.

12        A.   No, nobody ever asked for my views.  The trial never asked me or

13     the organisation that I work for, for such a report.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now we're going to cover today's questions during the

15     examination-in-chief.  On page 7, line 24, you said the children from

16     Srebrenica, after they saw their father's being separated from their

17     families, experienced trauma, they lost their identity.  This is stated

18     on page 8, line 4.

19             So my question to you would be this:  Do you know if they were

20     separated in Potocari itself, the children from the families, or were

21     they separated earlier from their parents when they decided that the

22     families should go to Potocari and that they would go to attempt the

23     break-through along the road that they took?  Thank you.

24        A.   The bulk of the children was separated from their fathers by

25     saying good-bye from -- to them from home, at home.  Some of them never

Page 10091

 1     got a chance to say good-bye to their fathers.  A small number of them

 2     were separated in Potocari itself.  I had a number of cases where the

 3     father and mother came together with the child to Potocari and they were

 4     separated from each other and the children saw that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Since a younger population would tend to have younger

 6     children, let's say fighters, ranging in age from 20 to 30, they didn't

 7     avoid going to Potocari, they either did or didn't go there.  Can you

 8     tell me whether this number is known to you and whether you investigated

 9     that?  Thank you.

10        A.   I don't know the number.  We didn't research that particular

11     aspect.  Only on some occasions I heard from some women that, for

12     example, the husband of one of them who was a teacher in school or was

13     not in good health, they thought that if they went together with their

14     wife that it would be better for them, but I don't know the number.  We

15     didn't investigate that number.

16        Q.   Thank you, Madam Ibrahimefendic.  On page 10 of the transcript,

17     lines 15 to 21 all the way to page 11, you talked about how you worked

18     with women who were raped.  Then after that, in line 21, you say:  I am

19     doing trainings for professionals who take statements from victims.

20             I would like to ask you this in relation to this matter:  Did you

21     speak with any women who were raped in Srebrenica, or are you working

22     with women who were raped in other places in society in the course of

23     their lives?

24        A.   I have five cases right now, five women from Srebrenica who are

25     undergoing therapy and who were raped.  They didn't speak about it up

Page 10092

 1     until 2000.  They didn't talk about it when they came to therapy for the

 2     first time.  But recently, now they are being sent to our centres by

 3     psychiatrists, their personality has changed quite substantially by now,

 4     some of them have psychiatric diagnoses, so they are being sent for

 5     treatment to our centre.  Because we are a centre for therapy and

 6     rehabilitation and because we are a trauma centre, we are the only place

 7     in town where such persons can be accommodated, persons who had

 8     experiences of that nature.

 9             We have a lot of experience.  We know a lot about trauma.  So we

10     are also engaged by others, for example, by courts, to train

11     professionals so that they learn as much as possible about trauma so that

12     in their contacts with victims they would be able to observe what is

13     going on and to be able to create trust between them and the victims.

14             For example, on the 19th of October of last year, I had

15     34 investigators in Banja Luka last year, and very young, very young

16     policemen investigators who are processing war crimes, but they knew very

17     little about trauma.  And besides the trauma issue, they also had a

18     problem in how to approach these people, and they expressed the desire of

19     learning as much as possible in order to be able to approach a woman

20     victim, a man who had been an inmate in a camp, they wanted to know as

21     possible about that.

22        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, these five rape cases,

23     do you know if these women were raped during the war in Srebrenica and do

24     you have information about when this rape took place and how did this

25     come about?  Thank you.

Page 10093

 1        A.   These five women told us that they were raped in Potocari.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to tell the Trial Chamber about one

 3     case?  How did these rapes happen in such a short time when they were in

 4     the UNPROFOR base?

 5        A.   They told us that they were going to get water, that the children

 6     were thirsty, that they went to get water behind the base building, that

 7     they were going towards the river, towards the creek, and that they were

 8     stopped there and that they were taken.  They said -- for example, two

 9     women said that there were some tents where they were taken and raped.

10     And there are even eye-witnesses.

11        Q.   Are you aware that the tents were something that only

12     representatives of the UN had?  Were their tents used for such

13     activities?  Thank you.

14        A.   I really don't know.  I don't know what the base looked like

15     during the war.  Later, I was in Potocari, I saw those buildings.  I

16     don't know how they were organised.  I don't know if tents were there,

17     how all of that was organised.  I really don't know.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please provide any kind of documents that

19     would talk about these matters for the Trial Chamber?

20        A.   No, I can't do that.  But there is an Association of the Women

21     Victims of War and that association has a database with all the women who

22     were raped during the war, women who reported to that centre, who

23     provided statements, stated all the circumstances, all the details of the

24     rape.  They brought witnesses.  So this association can provide such

25     data, not the organisation that I personally work for.

Page 10094

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Please, are you able to tell us of any case of

 2     somebody agreeing to testify after the training and conversation with

 3     you, because you said you were training professionals who were taking

 4     victim statements?  Thank you.  And that after that therapy, victims were

 5     interviewed and they were brought before a court.  Thank you.

 6        A.   Many victims are afraid.  Even professionals are reluctant to

 7     come to court and to testify.  On the one hand, they are afraid of how

 8     they are going to talk about what they experienced.  This is one type of

 9     stress.  The other type of stress is how to come before a Trial Chamber,

10     how to come to court, and how to testify.  Not because they're afraid.

11     Not because they're afraid that they would be exposed to any kind of

12     threat.  It's more of their personal, individual fear before a

13     Trial Chamber, being in court, because trials are quite stressful.  I

14     know that from personal experience.

15             Regardless of the procedure that is followed in court, one has to

16     approach the victims in order to have them come to testify.  On the other

17     hand, there -- they tell of their experiences during trials.  For

18     example, here they would talk about their experience, so the idea is for

19     them to have as little stress as possible.  But, actually, the whole

20     story is not about preparing the witness about what they will say.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   Let me just add something:  Well, the preparation consists of how

23     to free the person of the fear, how to relieve them of the fear in order

24     to be able to testify.  How a victim can overcome obstacles in themselves

25     in order to be able to come.  The way in which they will talk about the

Page 10095

 1     traumatic experience is something that has an end, with the victim

 2     talking with the Prosecutor.  So the way -- the preparation also consists

 3     of the way in which the victim will talk about their experiences.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Ibrahimefendic.  I would like you to answer the

 5     specific part of my question in as many sentences as you see fit about

 6     things that I'm asking you about.

 7             The question is:  Did the Prosecutor ever ask you to speak with

 8     any potential witness that refused to come because of that fear that you

 9     have just talked about?  Thank you.

10        A.   No, no.  If you are thinking of this Prosecutor's Office, no.

11     The Prosecutor's Office in Tuzla had problems relating to witnesses who

12     refused to testify.  And then we had these seminars, seminars that lasted

13     for two or three days, where the victims would talk about the problems

14     they encountered while testifying.  The Prosecutor spoke about their

15     problems in relation to this testimony, where they spoke to each other

16     about problems that they had with each other.  For example, there was a

17     case where a witness told one of the Prosecutors in Tuzla, You spoke to

18     me and while you were speaking to me you kept answering calls on your

19     mobile phone.  And she was very much bothered by that.

20        Q.   Could you please not speak about events that are not related to

21     Srebrenica.  We have limited time.

22        A.   This is nothing to do with Srebrenica.  This has to do with

23     training, education, about trauma.  Because in Bosnia the thinking is and

24     the discussion is that it was necessary to explain to people that we are

25     still in a certain trauma situation, going through certain trauma

Page 10096

 1     sequences, the trauma is still on-going, and that the trial proceedings

 2     have to go on.  They have to be completed so that society can start

 3     moving in a different direction.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would like to assist you.

 6             You have explained very well during the examination-in-chief the

 7     way you were educating professionals.  Now, Mr. Tolimir is focusing on

 8     specific parts of your testimony.  It's not necessary to go through these

 9     processes again.  And the question was really a very clear one, and you

10     said, No, I was not asked by this OTP, by this Prosecutor's Office.  That

11     was enough what Mr. Tolimir wanted to know.  Please focus on the specific

12     question.  Thank you very much.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mrs. Ibrahimefendic, on page 16, line 4, of today's transcript,

16     you said that persons don't trust others, they are having a lot of

17     problems, they cannot experience joy or love or grief.  So what I'm

18     interested in is:  Did you speak with anybody who formed a new family

19     after the Srebrenica event, and is that also true for them, that they

20     cannot experience joy, love, and grief?  Are there cases like that that

21     you encountered?

22        A.   Yes, of course there are cases like this, but these relationships

23     are always complicated.  On the one hand they experience joy, on the

24     other hand there is guilt because she is still alive, because she is

25     sharing smiles with somebody else.  So always in the background there is

Page 10097

 1     this sense of guilt for a person.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much.  On page 17, line 9 to 21, you said: Three

 3     days ago this woman came to me with a 16-year-old daughter, and so on and

 4     so forth, and the mother never told her about her father and she went to

 5     Srebrenica and there she found her father's pictures and so on.  Do you

 6     remember that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you please tell us, can you answer my question, can you

 9     please tell me this:  Would a child of six months, because you said that

10     the child was six months old when she lost her father, can a

11     six-month-old child have a feeling of intense loss of a parent, of a

12     father, when they didn't even remember him or see him?  Because you know

13     a child of six months cannot remember anything.  Or is this the case only

14     with some people of that age who could remember and recall that?

15        A.   If a child doesn't have a father, they create one in their

16     fantasy.  All the children in the school that this girl attended, most of

17     them, had fathers.  She didn't have a father.  So if she was denied

18     information by her mother about her father's disappearance, if she kept

19     telling her for five years, Your father is coming, your father is coming,

20     he's alive, he's going to come back, and he never actually did come back,

21     then the child lost her trust in her mother and stopped talking to her.

22     The mother -- this is now the responsibility of the mother.  And the

23     treatment consists of strengthening the resources of the mother.  A

24     mother, and its her duty, she has to explain to the child what happened.

25     She is the sole parent.  She must try, because the child is not

Page 10098

 1     responsible for that, she must try to find a photograph or some kind of

 2     memento.  But the child, in this case, had to do it herself.

 3        Q.   Since the Trial Chamber is not aware of circumstances in Bosnia,

 4     how was a child able to go to Srebrenica on her own and how come they had

 5     a photo there and they didn't have anything at home, since nothing was

 6     left after the war in Srebrenica?

 7        A.   She found out in the registry office in Srebrenica, in the

 8     municipality where you would get your ID card, that the former

 9     documentation, the archive, before the war had been preserved and that

10     her father had an identity card.  So she went to the registry office

11     where she asked for her father's file.  She said, My father had an

12     identity card before the war, so could you please look whether there is a

13     photograph in that file.  The woman and -- the girl said this, the woman

14     very kindly found the file, gave her the -- gave it to her.  So she

15     photocopied the picture and she returned the document to the

16     municipality.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan.

18             MS. HASAN:  Just a correction for the record:  At page 17,

19     line 13, the witness had testified that the child was ten months old and

20     not six months old.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ten months old.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 10099

 1        Q.   Ms. Ibrahimefendic, if you recall, on page 23 you said that many

 2     women try not to think about the problem and you said that this was a

 3     negative method.  My question is:  If that's a negative method, then in

 4     psychology, when they say that our lives are the same as our thoughts

 5     are, then is that a negative or a positive way?  Does that mean that we

 6     shouldn't think about something negative in order to overcome it?  Is

 7     there any contradiction there?

 8        A.   I said this in a different context, in relation to the

 9     psychological mechanisms of self-defence.  If something is difficult for

10     us, if we can't accept it, then we will deny it.  And the mechanism of

11     denial means that we're keeping ourselves in suspense, we're living a

12     lie.  However, this denial mechanism helped them survive.

13             Imagine a situation where they were being transported to Tuzla

14     and if at that point they had thought that their husband was dead, at

15     that point they were denying that they were dead.  They kept thinking

16     that they were alive.  So this mechanism helps them survive.  Sometimes

17     you can't accept the truth because it's very painful and we act as if it

18     was not happening.  We act as if it didn't happen.

19             To this day, there are quite a lot of people, a lot of elderly

20     women, who are trying to get their lives back from before the war.  They

21     picture that person alive.  They dream about them, they talk with them.

22     So this psychological twin exists.  And in this way, they are denying

23     reality.  Others will say -- others will tell them, He's dead.  And this

24     person will say, No, to me he is not dead.  So in that sense this

25     psychological defence mechanism is not good for recovery.

Page 10100

 1             The question isn't how long it will take for them to accept the

 2     loss, the question is how they will face the truth.  They have to ask

 3     themselves, How am I going to face the truth?  I have a woman whose three

 4     sons are no longer alive and she says, How is that possible?  And I can't

 5     answer that.  So I'm trying to help her find a way to handle this.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Ibrahimefendic.  You talked quite a lot about the

 7     social situation that the families from Srebrenica found themselves in

 8     and you talked about the problem of losing a loved one.  I would like to

 9     ask this:  That social problem, is it experienced by all refugees,

10     wherever they fled from in Bosnia, and do all those who lost a father in

11     combat in the Tuzla region, at the front line, experience it the same

12     way?  Is it the same characteristics?

13        A.   That pain is universal.  And everybody in Bosnia and Herzegovina

14     or all over the world who loses a loved one, regardless of the

15     circumstances, will experience pain.  However, when it comes to missing

16     persons, and there are a lot of them throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, there

17     is uncertainty and there is still some hope.  There's a lot of

18     ambivalence.  On the one hand it's like they are alive, and on the other

19     hand they're dead but there's no certificate.  In normal circumstances,

20     you need to know that somebody is alive or dead.  But here, you're in

21     suspense.  And the pain is universal.

22        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Ibrahimefendic.  Please tell us whether the social

23     problems that we talked about, with all the refugees and everybody who

24     went through certain trauma as a result of a loss of a loved one, and who

25     moved into new communities, as there are a lot of people from rural areas

Page 10101

 1     who moved into towns, is this one of the reasons why they cannot return

 2     to their old places of residence?  You can tell the Trial Chamber who's

 3     in power in Srebrenica, so they should be able to go back.  But they

 4     don't want to go back because they are not used to that life, they don't

 5     know how to herd cattle.  Did you consider this problem as well?

 6        A.   When I think about this problem, I look at it from the

 7     psychological aspect.  Namely, what once was will never return.  And many

 8     people think that life should go on, that life should go on the way it

 9     was before the war.  And when they return from where they had been

10     expelled or from where they left, they realise that life is different.

11     In the new communities, in the new towns, they had already started a

12     life.  The fact is that their children have grown up.  So there's a

13     problem within the family, because some want to go back and some don't

14     want to go back.

15             Some crave and long for their home and others don't long for

16     their home.  So conflicts regarding the return exist in the family.  So

17     that makes things complicated, as does unemployment, the economic

18     situation, or the return to their original place of residence.  And this

19     means that they can't have medical insurance, they can't get educated.

20     And social problems are similar in all of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I asked you this because you're a psychotherapist,

22     Ms. Ibrahimefendic, so are these problems complex because of all these

23     aspects and because of this new situation -- so are these problems more

24     expressed than during -- than the problems during the conflict?

25        A.   Well, of course the social aspect and the social dimension of

Page 10102

 1     traumatisation cannot be neglected.  Apart from the psychological

 2     problems that I mentioned, such as things can't go back to the way they

 3     were, there are economic problems and there are political problems, legal

 4     problems, spiritual problems, and so on.  And all these further

 5     complicated the situation, because society has been destroyed.  A lot of

 6     mechanisms that kept society together and that provided a framework for

 7     the functioning of this society have been destroyed.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Ibrahimefendic.  I would be very interested to

 9     talk to you, but there isn't enough time.  We are limited with time.

10             In your statement, you said that from 1995 to 2000 you had about

11     60 women who you treated.  My question is:  Is there any sort of a

12     database or a record of the people who you treated psychologically after

13     the war, and could this be provided to the Trial Chamber?

14        A.   The Trial Chamber can have all these documents.  We have a very

15     good database for each of our clients.  For every visit they made there

16     is a record of what we had discussed, the problems why they were

17     admitted, how long they spent in our institution, how many times they

18     came to therapy, whether it was outpatients treatment or not; these

19     documents and the entire database is available, if necessary.

20        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Ibrahimefendic, for this conversation.  I don't

21     have any more time to ask you any more questions.  I enjoy talking to you

22     and learning something from you as an expert.  We appreciate your

23     expertise and I wish you a good journey, God bless you, and I wish you a

24     good trip back home.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 10103

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, thank you much.  But you have more

 2     time if you need more time.  You indicated one and a half hour and you

 3     have used little less than one hour.  Just to make it clear:  You have

 4     time if you want to continue.  But it's up to you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm

 6     doing this because of the next witness.  It was told that he has to be on

 7     today, and a lot of time was used up for the previous witness and this

 8     witness.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

10             Ms. Hasan, do you have re-examination?

11             MS. HASAN:  I have no questions for re-examination,

12     Mr. President.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

14             Judge Mindua has a question for you.

15                           Questioned by the Court:

16             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.  I have a

17     question for you.  In today's record, on page 23, line 19 up to line 25,

18     you explained very clearly that it's very difficult and very complicated

19     to assess the consequences of the war, that is, what effect the war had

20     on the lives of the women and the children and that it's very difficult

21     to know whether and to what extent pain has diminished, whether the

22     consequences have lessened.  And on page 24, from lines 17 to 18, you

23     said that the process of trauma continues but in a different way.  I'm a

24     little bit confused because I am translating the English transcript to

25     myself in French.  So, the cycle of trauma continues and it changes

Page 10104

 1     shape; that's what you said.  So I would like to ask you the following

 2     question in relation to this:  In these conditions, do pain, the

 3     suffering, and the trauma that caused it, are they incurrable?  Is

 4     something like that incurrable?  That is, is it possible at all to cure

 5     your patients, your clients; or should they be monitored, treated, all

 6     their lives?  Is the therapy limited by time or not?

 7        A.   What I said about the cycle of trauma and that the trauma

 8     continues, that the symptoms are there but in a different shape - I will

 9     say this very shortly - in relation to theory, that helps us strengthen

10     our clients and our patients in this process of recovery.  We go through

11     the beginning of their trauma with them.  Trauma goes through a cycle.

12     First the expulsion, leaving home, getting to a certain destination where

13     you're a refugee; then another shock when they become refugees.  Although

14     they think it's a safe place, they are worried and preoccupied with their

15     physical survival, food, accommodation.  And then in a way, they adjust;

16     they develop some adaptive capabilities.  They are still not aware of the

17     psychological pain and trauma that they've been through.  And since the

18     war went on as long as it did in Bosnia-Herzegovina, some went abroad,

19     then again it was a country where they didn't speak the language or it

20     was a different language, then they adapted again, they developed new

21     symptoms.  They suffer because of the homes that they left behind.  They

22     adapt to the new circumstances, life goes on, their childrens [sic] grow

23     up, they have new obligations, and they are exhausted.  And then new

24     trauma might occur such as Srebrenica in 1995, so they return home, and

25     so on, and they find the dead.

Page 10105

 1             Each of these cycles has its own symptoms, traumatic events which

 2     are stressful for a particular person.  And through this entire cycle of

 3     trauma, a person gets through by developing certain skills.  And at the

 4     same time, their physical health and their mental health is weakened.

 5     Some people get through all these cycles successfully but they remain sad

 6     all their lives because practically trauma becomes a part of their life

 7     story.  It's a part their personal history.  And it determines their

 8     personal history and it determines their life.

 9             The traumatic event changes their life.  Instead of everybody

10     having a vision of how they will develop in life and what path they will

11     take, something happens and it takes you in a completely different

12     direction.  And all of a sudden you have to leave your previous life

13     behind.  Even though you may want to forget it, you can't.  You have to

14     process it somehow.  You have to take what's good in that life and then

15     move into a new life.

16             So some will continue to function, and they will exhibit normal

17     functioning, but on the other hand there will always be something that

18     they will regret, something that they will suffer for.  I don't know if

19     that's sufficient.

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I see you are on your feet.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I am, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we release the witness?

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I was just going to address that very issue.

25     And the reason why I'm on my feet obviously is because of

Page 10106

 1     General Tolimir's representation with respect to your question about

 2     whether he had any further questions.  I just wanted to be clear on the

 3     record, because his response indicated that he was terminating his

 4     cross-examination in view of the witness that is following.  I don't know

 5     what representations have been made to him with respect to the following

 6     witness.  And in particular in light of the events that transpired

 7     yesterday, I want to be sure that General Tolimir is -- has completed his

 8     cross-examination appropriately, in other words, not based upon some

 9     representation or some understanding with respect to the following -- to

10     the witness that will follow.  And if that's the case, then I think it's

11     not an issue, but I just want to be sure of that before we discharge this

12     witness.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             Mr. Tolimir, you heard the submission of Mr. Vanderpuye.  What is

15     your position on that?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thanked

17     Ms. Ibrahimefendic and I gave her my blessing.  Among us Christians, when

18     you send a blessing, it's communication through God, so there is no

19     returning to a previous point.  I wished her a safe return home, so I

20     don't intend to re-open my cross-examination.  And I thank the Prosecutor

21     for asking me to clear this up, but I have no further questions for this

22     witness.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this common

24     understanding.

25             Ms. Ibrahimefendic, thank you very much that you came here to

Page 10107

 1     The Hague again after 11 years and for the help you could provide us.

 2     Thank you very much again, and now you are free to return to your normal

 3     activities.  Good-bye.  And the Court Usher will assist you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The next witness should be brought in.

 6     Dr. Brunborg will continue cross-examination.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Please sit down.  Welcome

 9     back, Dr. Brunborg, to the Tribunal.

10             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's good that you could make it again.  And I

12     have to remind you that the affirmation you made at the beginning of your

13     testimony still applies.

14             Mr. Tolimir has more questions for you.

15             Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17                           WITNESS:  HELGE BRUNBORG [Resumed]

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Brunborg.  I would like you

20     a pleasant stay [as interpreted], and I thank you for coming back.  I

21     apologise if you have had to come back again because of us.  In any case,

22     I would like to wish God's peace on you and all your activities.  And I

23     would like this cross-examination to end as God wills it and not as I

24     will.

25             I would just like to remind you of what we talked about last

Page 10108

 1     time, during your testimony on the 10th of February.  We talked about the

 2     discrepancy between the B&H army data and the data of the International

 3     Committee for Missing Persons, which you used to draft your own analysis.

 4     The international committee had its own data negated by the B&H army, and

 5     we could see this on all the documents that were presented here during

 6     your testimony.

 7             What I would like to know is:  Do you know if the

 8     Prosecutor's Office investigated the phenomenon of people who were killed

 9     earlier who were found in the graves?  For example, if they were killed

10     in 1992 or around that time but were found in a common grave in 1994?

11     Thank you.  Or 1995.

12        A.   Information on this comes partly from the ICTY's own exhumations

13     and investigations and partly from the ICMP exhumations.  And as I said

14     last week, I am not an expert on exhumations, but I believe if -- that

15     there are certain mass graves were considered as Srebrenica-related,

16     meaning that if a body was found in such a grave, it was accepted as a

17     dead person, a person who died in connection with the fall of Srebrenica.

18             There were a few cases, I've been told, of a mixture of deaths of

19     people in 1992 and 1995, but these are only a few cases, perhaps only

20     one, I've been told, about Bratunac.  But I'm not an expert on this.

21        Q.   Thank you.  But we can see from your analysis that to a certain

22     extent, just like in your answer now, you gave precedence to data of the

23     International Committee of the Red Cross --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter would kindly ask the accused to

25     repeat his question.

Page 10109

 1             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the interpreter didn't catch your

 3     question.  Please repeat it.  I was asked by the interpreters.

 4             I stopped him to give him this information.

 5             Please repeat it.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   We could see on the list that we showed the last time that the

 9     army did not wish to accept, in a number of cases, that those persons

10     were found in graves, even though the Red Cross claimed that their DNA

11     was found in the graves.

12             So my question is:  These cases, and there were plenty of them -

13     we cited ten of them here - do these cases deserve a special

14     investigation so that we could see what this was -- what this was about?

15     And why does it occur that different data is entered regarding persons in

16     respect of the way that they died?  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It may be an

19     interpretation issue or a translation problem, but I think it would be

20     helpful in either event with respect to this question if General Tolimir

21     has a particular document in mind that he show it to the witness.  The

22     reason I raise it is because here we have a reference to the Red Cross

23     claiming that DNA was found in the graves, and I think the record is

24     quite clear that that's not what the Red Cross represented, and that is

25     something that is more generally associated with the ICMP and -- the

Page 10110

 1     International Commission of Missing Persons.  And so I think it would be

 2     helpful if General Tolimir has a particular document in mind, to show it.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, it would help the witness to provide you with his

 5     knowledge.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was thinking of the International

 9     Committee for Missing Persons, the ones that deal with the DNA, not the

10     ICRC.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And is it possible that the differences are so drastic that the

13     B&H army did not accept them, in spite of the pressure that was exerted

14     on them to do so?  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you have a specific document in mind?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I do

17     have a document.  This is 1776.  Can we please look at it in e-court.

18     Last time, we discussed it.  So I thought that I wouldn't have to go over

19     things again that we already had been over because of the time.  This is

20     the expert report of this witness, P1776.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And it would help the witness to refer to a

22     certain page, for instance.

23             THE WITNESS:  Well, I think he refers to page 95 of our

24     April 2009 report; is that correct?  The English version.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your most important report, indeed.

Page 10111

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  I would --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  If that would help the

 3     witness, then, of course, he can look at it.  I was thinking of page 220;

 4     that was the last page.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Of the transcript?  Page 220 of what?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now, of your report.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Which has only 105 pages.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I didn't finish my

 9     sentence.  I meant the 220 persons that are disputed in terms of data

10     between the B&H army and the ICMP.  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  I think I'd like to sum up a little

12     bit.  More than 5.000 bodies have been exhumed and found dead, almost

13     5.500, by ICMP, and a few others have been identified in other ways.

14     Matching with the army list, so that 70 per cent of those identified as

15     dead were indeed also registered with the ABiH.  When we checked the

16     dates and place of disappearance, there were 220 out of these several

17     thousand, 3-, or 4.000, exhumed bodies that had been reported as missing

18     before -- not -- excuse me, not reported.  Who were listed by the army as

19     having died before 1995, that is, in 1992 or other dates, in spite of

20     families having reported these as disappearing around the fall of

21     Srebrenica.

22             So first, it is less than 5 per cent that have

23     inconsistent [Realtime translation read in error "consistent"] day of

24     death.  220 out of 5.371.  So it's a very small number, 3, 4 per cent.

25     Secondly, these 220 records were -- when we looked at those closely,

Page 10112

 1     140 of them were confirmed, identified, and related to Srebrenica

 2     grave-sites by the ICMP.  If you want to know about the methods of ICMP

 3     to -- and what they -- how they define Srebrenica-related grave sites, I

 4     think it is more appropriate to ask somebody from ICMP or my colleague

 5     Ewa Tabeau who has worked more closely with ICMP.

 6             Also on page 95 it says that after these 220 records were sent to

 7     the Ministry of Defence in Bosnia for clarification, 127 of them were

 8     corrected by the Ministry of Defence in response to the request from OTP.

 9     So I do not know the reasons for these changes, but there are often

10     mistakes are made, also by ministries, regarding dates.  Regarding date

11     of death or date of disappearance, et cetera.  Whether these were

12     misprints or some other errors, I do not know.  But anyway, the ministry

13     corrected 127.  But they did not correct all of them.  There were

14     38 cases out of the 220 that they did not correct.  So it's hard to see

15     that this was a sort of systematic approach by the ministry to correct

16     all of them, make all of them Srebrenica relevant, so to say.

17             They corrected -- I do not know, but I would assume that they

18     have good reasons for making the corrections that they, in fact, did

19     make.  Out of the 38 cases - now we are down from 220 to 38 - that are

20     still undecided, we have requested further clarification.  And my

21     colleague Ewa Tabeau can respond to possible responses to that further

22     clarifications.  Remember that this report was finished in April 2009,

23     almost two years ago.  Thank you.  Sorry for this rather long answer.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask you for a clarification.  On page 47,

25     line 9, on the record you are recorded having said:

Page 10113

 1             "So first, it is less than 5 per cent that have been consistent

 2     day of death.  220 out of 5.371."

 3             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was it correct to say "consistent"?  Or

 5     "inconsistent"?

 6             THE WITNESS:  It should have been "inconsistent."  Excuse me,

 7     sorry, as here on page 95 in the report.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Inconsistent.  Yes, thank you very much.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

11             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that it would

12     help us if we look at page 97 in the e-court, in the English, and I think

13     it's enough just to show that page on the screen.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, this is also page 104 in

16     the Serbian, if that's necessary for the transcript.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I'm going to begin right away from the third list -- person on

21     the list on this page.  I don't want to read the names out because the

22     Prosecutor asked us not to read the names out.  He's the third person in

23     order from the top, and he disappeared in 1994.  And it states that he

24     was found in Kozluk.  There's also the person above, who disappeared in

25     1992, both persons, but the ICMP has them listed as persons who were

Page 10114

 1     found in the graves.

 2             What I'm interested in is, as Mr. Brunborg stated, that this is

 3     almost 5 per cent in relation to 5.000, so these 5.000, is that the

 4     actual number of persons who were executed, or is this some number that

 5     is being taken by ICMP in order to have this statistical data and to be

 6     able to use it for this particular report?  I mean, this statistical

 7     margin of 5 per cent, is that enough in order to investigate this

 8     further?  Can the ministry just decide like that about these 128 cases?

 9     Is there a decision that would indicate how these 127 persons were judged

10     to be in accordance with the data of this commission and would be

11     something that does not tally with the figures of the B&H army?  Thank

12     you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, if you look at the transcript,

14     page 49, from line 5 to 20, 15 lines is your question long.  And in fact

15     there were many questions in one.  It is very difficult for a witness to

16     answer such a complex question.

17             Dr. Brunborg, would you try to answer this question.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  First General Tolimir

19     started out with a wrong statement.  He said that the two -- the second

20     and third people disappeared before 1995.  That's not the case.  They

21     were reported by family members to ICRC as going missing around the date

22     of the fall of the enclave of Srebrenica.  Otherwise, we would not have

23     included them in our list of missing persons.

24             It is the dates, the DoD military, as it says at the top, are the

25     dates that these persons are listed as having died by the army, maybe by

Page 10115

 1     age.  On what criteria, I don't know.  But when -- we requested them that

 2     they should check these dates because there were inconsistency between

 3     when families had reported them as going missing and the dates of the

 4     military.

 5             Moreover, these were found in Srebrenica-related mass graves.  So

 6     they -- which indicates that they died in connection with the fall of

 7     Srebrenica.  Now, that is my -- I hope I answered all the questions.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Brunborg, you said:  "When -- we requested

 9     them that they should check these dates because they were inconsistent,"

10     and so on.  What was the response by the ABiH army?

11             THE WITNESS:  The response is given on page 95.  Out of the 220,

12     127, that is more than half, were corrected by the ministry in 2003 in

13     response to the OTP request for clarification of inconsistent ABiH

14     records.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             Judge Nyambe has a further question.

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Just to clarify, so that we are absolutely clear:

18     Which army we are talking about?

19             THE WITNESS:  The Army of the Federation of Bosnia.

20             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would ask for

23     these entries here to be looked at of when these people disappeared, the

24     persons listed as 1, 2, are the records by the army indicating that they

25     disappeared in 1992.  Thank you.

Page 10116

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness just say has explained that this is

 2     not a date of disappearance, but the Army of BiH listed them as dead.

 3     This is a difference.  This is not an entry about disappearance.  The

 4     witness just explained that.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Excuse me, Your Honour, it says in the title of the

 6     table that "with inconsistent date of death/disappearance."  It is

 7     possible that the army also included some for which the exact date of

 8     death was not known but they had disappeared.  So it is possible -- I

 9     don't know the exact criteria of the army, but my understanding is that

10     these are mostly or perhaps solely the date of death as reported in the

11     army archives.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this clarification.

13             Mr. Tolimir.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Statistics and paper can take everything --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know if the witness is

18     hearing what I'm saying.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].

20        Q.   Statistics and paper can record everything, or -- but Srebrenica

21     is a small place and you couldn't leave it during the war, you are aware

22     of that, so is there a chance that somebody could have hidden from the

23     army in Srebrenica throughout the whole war?  Thank you.

24        A.   Thank you.  I don't understand what you mean by the question

25     "hidden from the army."  We know that there were -- 70 per cent of those

Page 10117

 1     who were reported as missing were indeed part of the army ... part of the

 2     army, so how could they hide from the army?

 3             If I may continue, it could be, of course, that they -- that they

 4     were dressed in civilian clothes.  And whether they wore arms or not,

 5     dressed in civilian or military clothes or not, I do not know anything

 6     about.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Is it all right, then, for the Court and for myself

 8     to draw conclusions, reliable conclusions, on the basis of the figures?

 9     Or is it necessary also to have some other data and documents that also

10     deal with these matters?

11        A.   Thank you.  What is -- if I may ask you what the exact questions

12     are one by one, please.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Aleksandar, could you please read

15     out exactly what I asked, from the transcript, please.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This would be my task.  Mr. Tolimir, I have some

17     concern about this question.

18             "Is it all right, then, for the Court and for myself to draw

19     conclusions, reliable conclusions, on the basis of the figures?"

20             And so on.  What the Court does with these figures, it's up to

21     the Court.  You may ask:  If you are in the position to draw conclusions

22     of that.  This is a different story.  And then the question would read:

23             Is it all right, then, for you, Mr. Tolimir, to draw conclusions,

24     reliable conclusions, on the basis of the figures?  Or is it necessary

25     also to have some other data and documents that also deal with these

Page 10118

 1     matters?

 2             Is that understandable, Mr. Brunborg?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I have been tasked, and my

 4     colleagues also, to estimate or provide a list of persons missing --

 5     sorry.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

 7             THE WITNESS: -- list of persons missing or dead in connection

 8     with the fall of Srebrenica.  So we are providing names and also total

 9     numbers, a total number, which keeps increasing.  But that is not the

10     whole story.  I do not claim to understand everything that went on in

11     Srebrenica or to know everything.  And that is exactly, as far as I

12     understand, why there is a court where many -- there is a court where

13     many reports are presented, there are many witnesses testifying on

14     different aspects of the fall of Srebrenica and what happened.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you,

18     Mr. President, I'm not going to lose any more time.  I just said -- I

19     asked the witness can the Defence and the Court come to reliable

20     decisions only on the basis of the witness saying maybe this and maybe

21     that.  I do not want to go any further than that.  Of course it's up to

22     the Court to reach its own conclusions.

23             Can we now please look at P1776, page 2.  Actually, it's page 46

24     in the Serbian, page 42 in the English.  And it's paragraph 2.  We can

25     see the report.  Thank you.

Page 10119

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And you say, in this second paragraph:

 3             "A concise yet exhaustive overview of the exhumation and

 4     identification status in the former Yugoslavia, and in Srebrenica in

 5     particular, is not available from a single organisation.  For

 6     Srebrenica" --

 7             And then, actually, at the end of the paragraph you add:

 8             "The Institute for Missing Persons and the State Commission for

 9     Missing Persons are now in the process of creating a central database on

10     exhumations and identifications.  Unfortunately, this database does not

11     yet exist in a useable electronic format."

12             You say that there is no database, either of the Institute or of

13     the State Commission for Missing Persons, and that it's not useable.

14             What do you imply by that?  Are you suggesting that this database

15     should exist?  And when will it be completed?  Is it going to be before

16     or after the end of these proceedings?

17        A.   When this report was completed in April 2009, there was, to my

18     knowledge, no central database on exhumations, identifications.  There

19     may have been developments only since then.  But as far as I know,

20     there's still not any unified comprehensive database on this.  But the

21     things are changing fast and something may have happened on this.  There

22     are, as you know, also other sources on missing and dead persons,

23     including the Bosnia Book of Dead, but that is really not a database on

24     exhumations.

25             My understanding is that the ICMP has -- is taking care of most

Page 10120

 1     of the identifications, exhumations identifications.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Bearing in mind what you just said and what you said

 3     that the differences are great, if the Institute for Missing Persons does

 4     not recognise the lists of the army, if it does not recognise the lists

 5     of the Prosecutor's Office, then the question is:  Do they at all

 6     recognise the work of other commissions and other organs or is the basic

 7     criterion the one they provide or is the basic criterion the one provided

 8     by the BH CTMP [as interpreted]?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Thank you.  I have not said as -- that the Institute for

10     Missing Persons does not recognise the list of the army or that it does

11     not recognise the lists of the Prosecutor's Office or other commissions

12     or other organs.  So may I ask you, please, to repeat your question?

13        Q.   Thank you.  I'll repeat.  We were in the position to hear about

14     various lists during your testimony by the Commission for Missing

15     Persons, the ICRC, and the Prosecutor's Office, so the question is:  Does

16     the ICRC recognise the work of the Tribunal's OTP in relation to dead and

17     missing persons from Srebrenica?  Thank you.

18        A.   My understanding is that the ICRC is getting information from the

19     ICMP regarding new, identified, and missing persons who have been

20     identified as dead.  What do you mean by, "the ICRC recognise the work of

21     the ... OTP"?  I do not quite understand.  I -- my understanding is that

22     they think this is important work but they are basing their own work on

23     other sources.

24        Q.   Since you were studying the Court's documentation, is there any

25     discord between the lists of the ICRC and of the Prosecutor's Office?

Page 10121

 1     Thank you.

 2        A.   As I explained last week, we started our work on establishing a

 3     list of missing persons mostly from the ICRC's lists.  In addition, we

 4     used data from the PHR, an humanitarian organisation, so -- which I did,

 5     actually, only a few -- I think less than 100 missing persons.  So this

 6     means that the OTP's work was initially based almost solely on the ICRC's

 7     lists.

 8             Later, we have also received data from the ICMP both on

 9     identified dead persons, but also on additional identified dead persons

10     who were not on the ICRC's list of missing persons.  But in addition to

11     that, we do not have -- we are not including missing persons from any

12     other source, missing or dead persons from any other source than ICRC,

13     PHR, and ICMP.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have page 52 in the

16     Serbian and page 48 in the English, please.  The last sentence of the

17     paragraph.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Now we can see it.  In the one-but-last paragraph in both

20     languages, the final sentence.

21             "Note that the ICMP number of closed cases is not necessarily the

22     same as the number of closed cases declared by local courts."

23             My question is this:  Will you agree with me that for statistical

24     purposes and for the purposes of demographic examination, one person can

25     be declared dead once there is a valid decision by a court?  And what is

Page 10122

 1     the usual practice in Norway; can a missing person be on such a list

 2     without a decision by a court that has jurisdiction?

 3        A.   I do not quite see the relevance of the question, as we do not

 4     have lists of missing persons in Norway.  We do in fact have some --

 5     there are some people who have disappeared and they are not found on

 6     their address, and it is possible that they are declared dead, but then I

 7     think that's a court decision.  This is very -- applies to very few cases

 8     each year.  For example, if a fishing boat has been lost, then it may be

 9     assumed that the people on the fishing boat are dead after some time and

10     after a long search procedure.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you for the answer.  My next question is:  Did

12     you check the degree of discrepancy between the lists of people on the

13     ICMP as identified or dead and the data of local courts which issued a

14     valid decision declaring somebody dead?  Thank you.

15        A.   As far as we -- I know, we did not receive data from local

16     courts.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think this is time for our second

18     break.  The tapes have to be rewound.

19             We adjourn for half an hour and resume at 6.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   While we have this document on the screen, Mr. Brunborg, could

Page 10123

 1     you please look at the paragraph that we were looking at before the

 2     break, the paragraph I showed you where you talk about the differences

 3     between information published by the ICMP, which does not -- where

 4     positive DNA reports are under review.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the end of his

 6     question.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters didn't catch the

 8     last part of your question.  The last part which is recorded reads as

 9     follows:

10             "... where you talk about the differences between information

11     published by the ICMP, which does not -- where positive to DNA reports

12     are under review."

13             And there was something following which was not caught by the

14     interpreters.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll repeat.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   After this, my question, and I'll quote.

18             Those identifications which are underway, are they included in

19     the list of the Prosecution from 2009?  Thank you.

20        A.   I think we included those that are underway if we had -- if we

21     received information about such cases with case numbers from the ICMP.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us whether the list of the

23     Prosecution is public?  Thank you.

24        A.   In principle it is.  But, again, I think that since it may

25     contain names of dead persons who -- where the legal process and

Page 10124

 1     notification of families have not yet been completed, I think the

 2     whole -- parts of the list is under seal.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 12 in the

 5     B/C/S, and that's page 11 in English, of Exhibit P1176 [as interpreted].

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Before we move on to this question, since you said partly, can

 8     the expert, public, check your lists?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Whether -- I don't think there's a distinguish between public

10     experts and public -- the public in general, so if parts of the lists are

11     under seal, it is not available to experts either.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Just to clarify the record:  This is

13     Exhibit P1776.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much indeed.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Brunborg, could you please look at bullet point number 3 in

18     paragraph 2.3.  I will quote:

19             "Additionally, any indication of Srebrenica survivors that came

20     to our attention from any document, data source, press report, book,

21     report, witness recollection (be it a statement or testimony of the

22     person), et cetera, brought to our attention by others (including both

23     the Prosecution and the Defence) were checked one by one and excluded if

24     confirmed surviving."

25             Please tell me, the demographic department, did it try to put

Page 10125

 1     together a list of sources that you used during this verification that

 2     you mentioned of books, reports, or witness recollection?  Does something

 3     like that exist?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Not to my knowledge.  We consulted a number of documents,

 5     press reports, books, but the point here is that we did not find any new

 6     names of possible survivors.  So this exercise, this search, did not

 7     result in anything.  We mostly consulted the list with several names, be

 8     it of a displaced persons, refugees, soldiers, voters.  All these are

 9     discussed at length in the appendices to this report.

10             I should also add that in the first report as of 2000,

11     February 2000, we did consult -- we looked at certain books and lists,

12     and it's under the chapter called, "Attempts at Undermining These Lists,"

13     and the references to such books and articles are given in the 2000

14     report, which is also tendered here.

15        Q.   Thank you.  So your reply is that you did not find any survivors.

16             I would now like you to look at 1D574 in e-court, please.  This

17     is part of a book by Milivoje Ivanisevic, Srebrenica, July of 1995,

18     "Searching for the Truth."  We can see the title which says --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 2, please.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   There.  Now we see it.  People for whom there are court decisions

22     establishing that they died at another time or in a different location.

23     The list was compiled based on some registers of death.  The introduction

24     says, and I quote:

25             "Having viewed certain registry books of death which were kept by

Page 10126

 1     the Muslim authorities, we established that the people whose names we

 2     list in the continuation of this overview were not victims of the

 3     massacre in July of 1995 in Srebrenica.  Instead, the majority of them

 4     died of natural causes in other places and at other times.

 5             "Unfortunately, we are not in a position to have even a

 6     perfunctory view of the majority of registry books of death either in

 7     Srebrenica or in other neighbouring municipalities.  We believe that in

 8     that case this list would be significantly longer.  However, even without

 9     this, the fact that there was an attempt to increase the number of

10     alleged Muslim victims of Srebrenica of those killed in the massacre

11     during the return of Serbs in July of 1992 and buried in the memorial

12     centre and the Potocari cemetery, this abuse is confirmed by the

13     following findings:"

14             Before I move on to those findings, tell me:  Were you ever in a

15     position to see this list or a similar list, since Ivanisevic's book was

16     published in 2007, before your report of 2009, since you said that you

17     consulted even the media?  Thank you.

18        A.   Thank you.  I've seen several similar lists.  And whether this

19     list was also considered, I don't know, but I should think that this --

20     my colleague Ewa Tabeau has consulted and studied this list as well.

21     What we have found when we look at such lists is that the people on the

22     list were not including in our list of missing persons.  We will be happy

23     to check whether these names on your lists are indeed included on our

24     list of missing persons.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you use registry books of death kept by the

Page 10127

 1     Muslim authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to establish the number

 2     of people registered as missing or who were identified based on DNA

 3     analysis and who died of natural causes or before or after the events in

 4     Srebrenica?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Well, again you ask a number of questions in one sentence.  We

 6     made certain that when a person was reported as dead, first that that

 7     person was listed as a missing person.  If we had data on the cause of

 8     death and that being a natural death, of course that is -- that would not

 9     be listed as a dead missing person.  But I don't recall any such

10     examples.

11             It is possible that the ICRC have looked at this and then deleted

12     such persons from their lists.  But the number of persons who have been

13     deleted from the lists for such reasons is very small.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at this list; we see it now on page 2.

15     It's 1D580.  And on this list there is information from the book that

16     we're talking about by Mr. Milivoje Ivanisevic.  And we, the Defence, has

17     matched this to the lists of the Prosecution from 2000, 2007, and 2009,

18     and we found 58 names mentioned in these lists who were established to

19     have died in a different place or at a different time and not in relation

20     to the events in Srebrenica.  Did you bear that in mind when you wrote

21     your report?  Thank you.

22        A.   As I said, I don't recall having seen this list, since I did not

23     work here in 2007 and later.  My colleague Ewa Tabeau may have seen it.

24     But to answer, did you say 8 or 28 names?  Here are only 8 names, I see,

25     but maybe there are more.

Page 10128

 1        Q.   Thank you for that question.  There is a total of 58 names.

 2        A.   Okay.  We would need to check those names to see whether your

 3     finding is valid.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 1.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   And while we're waiting for it, I would like to say that six

 8     names from this list are not on the lists from the previous years, either

 9     on the list from 2000 or 2007.  They are not on the list.  That's six

10     names.  However, these names do appear on the list from 2000 and 2007; so

11     once they are on your lists, and once they're not on your lists.

12             So my question is this:  Based on what did you delete these six

13     names of the total of 58?  And is there any documentation and explanation

14     for why you deleted these six names in 2009?  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, for a better understanding, for the

16     witness and for the Chamber, could you indicate what kind of list is

17     this?  You said:  "Please look at this list; we see it now on page 2,"

18     and then you changed to another document.  Is this part of the book we

19     have seen earlier, or is it a different list?  We need an explanation for

20     that.

21             Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe I will be

23     able to explain that very shortly.  The list that we are looking at right

24     now was put together by the Defence and it was created after having

25     compared entries in the book by Milivoje Ivanisevic and the list of the

Page 10129

 1     Prosecution.  We can see matches in Column 1, where we can see the name

 2     and father's name of each of these people, then in Column 2 is the place

 3     of disappearance based on the lists of the Prosecution, and in Column 3

 4     is the place of death listed in Ivanisevic's book and data which is

 5     claimed to have been taken from the appropriate court records.

 6             The record of death provides -- the record of death is provided

 7     in the next column, as follows from the appropriate registers, and all

 8     this is matched to the lists of the Prosecution.  The final three columns

 9     provide the 65 ter numbers of those Prosecution lists.  65 ter 00536 is

10     the Prosecution's list from 2000.  OTP 65 ter 2197 is the Prosecution's

11     list from 2007.  And finally, it is the Prosecution's list from 2009.

12     You will also be able to see in the table itself, in parts which indicate

13     the lists of the Prosecution, it says:  "Da," meaning "yes," meaning it

14     is on that Prosecution list.  And it also lists the page number in

15     e-court, that is, the page number where this person's name that had been

16     matched to Ivanisevic's book is located.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this explanation,

18     Mr. Gajic.  That helps for a better understanding.  I take it that this

19     list was compiled by the Defence in this case?  Mr. Gajic, I take it that

20     this list was compiled and created by the Defence of this case; is that

21     correct?

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  This was

23     compiled by my associates and I was in a position to check most of the

24     entries and I did not notice any mistakes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more thing --

Page 10130

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just wanted to know, what is the provenance of

 2     this, to know -- for a better understanding how it came about.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir and then Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that

 7     Ivanisevic's data was taken from court registers regarding the deaths of

 8     these 58 people and it was on the basis of this and on the basis of the

 9     Prosecution lists, as Mr. Gajic just explained, that the Defence compiled

10     the table.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Vanderpuye.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think

14     General Tolimir has in part answered the question that I had, but to the

15     extent that he has referenced that the places and, I guess, the dates of

16     deaths are taken from court records, it would be helpful to know what

17     court records he's talking about and if those records are identified in

18     any area where they can be looked at or scrutinised.

19             And I note this only because some of the entries that are

20     indicated on this particular chart as relates to the 2009 OTP list

21     correspond to the same names of individuals who are identified by DNA

22     analysis by the ICMP as coming from Srebrenica-related graves, such a

23     Glogova and Cancari and Cerska -- from Cerska.  So I think it's important

24     to know what particular registers the Defence has relied on in order to

25     produce this table, since we don't have them, we don't have them before

Page 10131

 1     us, in order to, A, determine the provenance of the information, and, B,

 2     in order to assess its reliability.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I note that the persons listed from number 1 to

 4     number 7 are listed with the same date of birth, 15th December, 1996.

 5     Indeed it would be helpful --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Date of death, sorry.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What did I say?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Date of birth.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's indeed a difference.  Date of death.

10     Thank you for your correction.

11             Mr. Tolimir, it would be helpful to provide us with this

12     information if you want to have a comment of this witness about this list

13     we have on the screen.

14             First a comment or a correction by the Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, with your leave, just to mention

16     for the clarity of the record, that 65 ter document that the Defence

17     referenced under 00536 has already been admitted into evidence as

18     Prosecution Exhibit P1782.  Unlike the other 65 ter document 02197, which

19     has not been exhibited yet.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the book that

23     served as the basis for compiling this list, the complete information

24     thus was taken from Ivanisevic's book.  It's clear why he provides this

25     data.  This is data from the registers of death, and the entries as it is

Page 10132

 1     stated in the book were made on the basis of court decisions, court

 2     records.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And Mr. Vanderpuye asked for these court records.

 4     If you have a reference to a specific court, file number, case number, or

 5     something like that.

 6             But I'm -- not to waste time on that, I would appreciate if the

 7     witness recalls the question.  He was asked, in relation to this document

 8     on the screen, with respect to six names taken from the list.  And you

 9     were asked:

10             "Based on what did you delete these six names of the total of 58?

11     And is there any documentation and explanation for why you deleted these

12     six names in 2009?"

13             Have you an answer to that question?

14             THE WITNESS:  I do not, of course, remember all the details about

15     every person, but I think the main reason for deleting names was that

16     the -- was the information we received from ICRC are new versions of the

17     missing lists.  Each time we received a new version, the total number

18     increased a little bit, but there were also some names that were taken

19     off, a few because they were found to be survivors and some for technical

20     reasons.  And having -- dying for -- from a natural cause or on the date

21     that was not consistent with the fall of Srebrenica would be one reason.

22             But if I may, Your Honour, you notice that there are seven -- the

23     seven first names all died on the same -- apparently seemed to have died

24     on the 15th of December, 1996, which I find a bit - what do you call? -

25     suspicious.  Is it certain that that date is not the date of the court

Page 10133

 1     order?  Or the date of the exhumations?  That needs to be investigated

 2     also.  As far as I know, there was no fighting in 1996, so this could not

 3     have been a battle or anything, so it's quite strange that so many, seven

 4     out of 58, would die on the same day.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  If we

 7     look at these sources that we cited, Ivanisevic's book, and the data for

 8     2000, 2007, and 2009 by the Prosecution, which we will also tender as

 9     evidence, you will be able to see exactly what was the reason for the

10     conclusion by the Defence and to establish what it established on the

11     basis of looking at those four documents.  This is how this was written

12     in this document, the manner of death.  And then if you look at who

13     entered this data, you will find that all the data was entered by the

14     Muslim side, not the Serb side, and the certificates of death were

15     certificates of death provided by the Muslim side for Muslim persons.

16     Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue with your cross-examination.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender these two

19     documents, please, so that we could use them later.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is the document 1D580, which is on the screen

21     now, already in evidence?  No, it's not, I'm told.

22             Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Subject to the

24     arguments that I've made before with respect to the provenance of the

25     information that underlies these records, particularly the Court's

Page 10134

 1     observation that the recorded date of death, as the witness has

 2     indicated, at least on the first page alone records

 3     15th of December, 1996, for what looks like seven entries, there are an

 4     additional number of entries, I would gather around 20, maybe more, in

 5     the document, about 30, reflecting that same date.  I think in light of

 6     that observation and the failure to identify the specific records or the

 7     source of the information that's provided in this document, I would ask,

 8     if the Court is inclined, to consider it.  That it be marked for

 9     identification, pending additional information establishing its

10     reliability and its provenance.  But otherwise, I would object to its

11     admission at this time for all purposes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that it will

14     help us if we briefly look at 1D574.  I am aware of the fact that the

15     Prosecutor does not speak Serbian, and maybe that's the problem because

16     the document has not been translated yet.  Can we now look at page 2,

17     please.  And what we can see here on this list is the precise register

18     that was used and based on which court decision the entry was made.  We

19     said that we used Milivoje Ivanisevic's book as the whole source.  At the

20     moment we are not able to check all the court records and the registers

21     of death.  We believe that the Prosecutor has much more at their

22     disposal, much more capacity to check these sources.  So as these -- this

23     data is quoted in the book, we use that for our data in precisely the

24     same way.

25             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

Page 10135

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Tolimir please be asked to repeat

 2     what he is saying.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you don't have the floor at the

 4     moment.  We listen very carefully to Mr. Gajic, but I have an additional

 5     question to Mr. Gajic and then you will get the floor.  Just a moment.

 6             Mr. Gajic, you told us that you took all the information in this

 7     list we have now on the screen, included in this book, and inserted them,

 8     this information about the specific persons listed here, in your list; is

 9     that the case?

10             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we merged the

11     information cited in the book with the information from the lists of the

12     OTP.  So we matched them up, we linked them.  In the same way that the

13     OTP works when they match up their list with the register of the Army of

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We did the same thing.  And we took just those

15     entries that are cited in the book and which overlap or match up, because

16     the investigator's dealing with this question, actually you will see that

17     there are many more names here than the names we put on our list.  As

18     their basis, they took the list of names in the graveyards, in the

19     cemetery; they didn't use the Prosecutor's list because it's confidential

20     and it's accessible only to the parties in these proceedings.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That helps us very much.  Mr. Gajic, I take it

22     that the information that -- that you have no additional information from

23     the specific files of the specific courts in the region.  You took it

24     from this book; is that correct?  Just to make it clear that everybody

25     understands your position.

Page 10136

 1             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] We used only this book as our

 2     source, yes.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think that solves

 5     the question with respect to the provenance of the table itself that the

 6     Defence is tendering, and I have no problem with it in that respect,

 7     since the source of the information has been identified.  I'm not sure

 8     whether the book itself has been tendered.  Has it been tendered?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was my understanding or it was just an

10     announcement that Mr. Tolimir will tender it.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Right.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But I take it he is tendering this book.  But

13     before we decide on that, I would like to know how many pages, which

14     pages?  We see here page 156 and 157 on the screen, but you were

15     referring to page 2.  How many pages does this document contain?

16             Perhaps we can get the information from the Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  There are five pages in total.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Five pages in e-court, uploaded by the Defence;

19     is that correct?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I see you on your feet, Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely, Mr. President.  There

23     are five relevant pages from the book and that still has not been

24     tendered.  We would like to tender this document now.  This is 1D574.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 10137

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm still standing

 2     only because it's fine for the book to come in, or the relevant pages of

 3     the book to come in, I just wanted to clarify that Mr. Gajic's

 4     representation as to the source of the information, that is, the public

 5     records of death, upon which the book relies and in turn his spreadsheet

 6     relies is included within those five pages.  That is -- so if that's

 7     included, then I have no objection.  If it's not included, then I will

 8     still ask for it to be marked for identification, pending the

 9     identification of the source of that -- of that information.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was my understanding.

11             Mr. Gajic.

12             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 1D574, that we are

13     looking at, consists of five pages from the book.  1D580 is the list

14     created by the Defence by matching up the data from this book and from

15     the Prosecutor's list.  The list was made using the data that is

16     contained on these five pages.  I think so far things are quite clear.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would agree.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I don't agree, if I may.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  What's missing, and it's probably just a

21     translation issue and also due to the fact that I can't read Cyrillic:

22     Does this exhibit, that is, the book, contain the source information for

23     the -- for the dates of death that are reported in the list?  Does it say

24     it came from X record in X municipality or not?  If it doesn't say that,

25     then I would ask that it just be marked for identification until that

Page 10138

 1     information is identified.  And if it does, then there's no problem.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand your request.

 3             Could you clarify that, Mr. Gajic?

 4             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's all clearly

 5     stated in the book.  Mr. Tolimir read the introductory paragraph earlier,

 6     that the data found in this book was taken from official registers.  Only

 7     if we -- well, just if we look at this, if we clarify, the first entry

 8     under 1:

 9             "Huso Dzafic, son of Vehbija," [phoen] "1960, died on the

10     21st of May, 1992, Nova Kasaba, recorded in the Registry of Deaths on the

11     basis of a decision of the basic court in Banovici, RI 43/96, dated the

12     9th of December, 1996.  Date of recording in the Registrar of deaths is

13     the 19th of December, 1996."

14             All the information provided in the table was taken from this

15     book, which clearly indicates its sources.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I think this clarifies the

17     situation.  The problem is, of course, that we are not all able to read

18     Cyrillic - not yet, I must add - and in that case I think we -- we admit

19     the list compiled by the Defence, this is 1D580, as an exhibit.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D580 shall be

21     assigned Exhibit D164.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the document, that means the five pages of

23     the book, which is now on the screen, 1D574, will be marked for

24     identification, pending translation.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  And shall be assigned Exhibit D165.  Thank you,

Page 10139

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was a very severe and complicated

 3     discussion, but we finished it.  And I'm happy about that.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since in

 6     the expert report drafted by Mr. Brunborg it says that they then used

 7     Defence records, TV records, Prosecution records; these are all public,

 8     official documents, so I believe there should be no problem there.  The

 9     Defence, using these same sources, D165 and D164, found some

10     inconsistencies between those on the list at the Potocari Memorial

11     Centre, drafted by and so and so, and the list made by the Prosecutor and

12     the list provided by Mr. Ivanisevic that we are tendering.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   On the basis of looking at a number of registers of death, my

15     question is:  What would be the cause of inconsistencies found between

16     the names engraved on the graves of those killed that are found at the

17     Potocari cemetery and those entered on the lists by the OTP?  Thank you.

18        A.   Thank you.  As I said, I've never seen this list before.  But

19     I -- it's possible that my co-author Ewa Tabeau has seen it.  I think we

20     discussed it before -- last week, before I started my testimony, and she

21     may have said that they were not on the list of missing persons.  So

22     before I can respond, we need to check whether these are really on our

23     list of missing persons.

24             On previous and similar lists and claims that these died on other

25     dates or for other causes not related to Srebrenica, then we have not

Page 10140

 1     found them -- they were not included in our list of missing persons.  So

 2     we would need to check that.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  On page 27 of your report, you say that the

 4     population in Srebrenica numbered 40.000.  My question is:  In your

 5     investigation, did you come across any documents that would provide a

 6     more precise number of the inhabitants in that area?  Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is page 26 in the Serbian

 8     and 22 in English.  Thank you.  This is Exhibit P1776.  Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  The sentence reads: "It is assumed that

10     about 40.000 people were in the town of Srebrenica before it fell."  But

11     the exact size of this population is not known.

12             In previous testimonies, I refer to the number 42.000, which was

13     also an estimate made by, was it, humanitarian organisations, and I also

14     said that we have been looking and asking for lists of individuals who

15     were in the town of Srebrenica before it fell but we have not come across

16     any.  We have asked repeated questions on that.  Nobody knows the exact

17     number of people who were in the town of Srebrenica before it fell.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at D117 now, please.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   This is a document that the Prosecutor has.  And this is a

21     document that is ERN 0092-6462.  You probably had access to the document

22     as well.  And the document states the exact number of the inhabitants in

23     Srebrenica and the neighbouring municipalities.

24             So my question to you is:  Did you have the opportunity to look

25     at this overview that we can see, this breakdown that we can see on the

Page 10141

 1     screen?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Thank you.  I have probably seen this before, but if you notice

 3     at the top of the document it says:  "Srebrenica, 11th of January, 1995."

 4     That is really six months or seven months before the fall of Srebrenica,

 5     so it is not really relevant to talk about the number of people who were

 6     there in January, when Srebrenica fell in July.  Moreover, I do not

 7     really see the relevance of this since we do not have the names of all of

 8     these.  Then we could -- that would have been useful for our analysis to

 9     have a list of names and date of birth of these people, but these are

10     all only summary figures.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I'm just asking if you use that in your work, and you

12     could just say, "Yes, I did" or "I did not."  Or "we did" or "we did

13     not."

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at D166 so that the

15     witness can look at it.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I have to read this exhibit that we can see.  I have to read it.

18     We don't have a translation.  Actually we do have a translation, so I'm

19     not going to read it.  But what the document says, and we can see that it

20     was signed by the president of the Presidency of Srebrenica municipality

21     Fahrudin Salihovic, the document was drafted on the

22     11th of January, 1994.  The document is -- concerns the data of the local

23     population and the number of locals who have been displaced from their

24     homes in the municipality and the number of the population expelled from

25     the municipality.  In the note it states:

Page 10142

 1             "The requested data that we hereby provide for statistics should

 2     not be shown to international organisations because we are basing our

 3     calculations with them on a population figure of 45.000."

 4             My question is this:  Since you indicated that the data from

 5     1995, and then we have data from 1994, would you say that the number of

 6     the inhabitants grew so rapidly in the enclave or did it fall rapidly?

 7     Are you able to tell us which one it is?  Thank you.

 8        A.   Assuming that these are good estimates, this gives an estimate of

 9     45.000 as of January 1994.  The previous estimate was 40.000 for

10     January 1995.  So a similar calculation shows that the population

11     declined by 5.000.  But we don't -- I do not know the quality of the data

12     and how they were collected.  Some of these figures were produced for

13     support reasons, therefore, so that the national community could make

14     estimate how much provisions, how much food, this population would need.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  I think that the president of the

16     municipality is the authorised body, because this is not information just

17     from anyone, and he does give the exact figures.  And then he says how

18     much he has increased the number.

19             My question is:  Did you ask for such and similar documents from

20     the B&H authorities since this document also comes from the authorities

21     in Srebrenica?

22        A.   On a number of occasions we asked B&H authorities for lists of

23     people who were in Srebrenica before the fall, in July 1995.  We did see

24     similar documents and heard estimates such as those you have mentioned,

25     but our approach was really to work on data on individuals.  So for this

Page 10143

 1     it was not so much help to us, such a document just stating some

 2     aggregate figures.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Earlier we looked at a document which states that in

 4     January 1994 that there were 37.000 inhabitants.  We also looked at a

 5     document earlier, before this one, which states that there were

 6     36.057 inhabitants.  Can we conclude, then, that only, in just one year,

 7     1.294 people left the enclave?

 8        A.   It's interesting to read the note at the bottom of this document,

 9     where -- which you quoted also:

10             "The requested data that we hereby provide for statistics should

11     not be shown to international organisations because we are basing our

12     calculations with them on the population figure of 45.000."

13             So the mayor gave a total of 37.000 but in the dealings with

14     international [Realtime transcript read in error "national"]

15     organisations they used 45.000, probably to get more rations than for

16     just 37.000.  So this indicates something about the quality of this data.

17             I think the data material is really too poor to say anything

18     about the decline of the population of Srebrenica before, especially

19     before July --

20        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  I didn't understand you.  They were not

21     furnished to whom?  You said they were not furnished to national

22     organisations.  Can you please tell us who do you mean?

23        A.   It says, the note:  "It should not be shown to international

24     organisations," in the note.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness said:

Page 10144

 1             "... a mayor gave a total of 37.000 but in the dealings of

 2     national" -- no, it was wrongly recorded.  "International organisations"

 3     it should read, on page 77, line 16.

 4             There's a mistake, I think, in translation or in the recording.

 5     It was referring to the international organisations like we can see in

 6     the document.

 7             Go ahead, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to tender

 9     this document and the previous document into evidence, if they haven't

10     been tendered already, and then I would like to look at P176 in e-court,

11     please.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document D166 is already an exhibit.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1776.  1776.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is also a document -- I just -- you were

15     tendering a document and I just commented it is already an exhibit.

16     That's all.

17             Go ahead, please.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   On page 26, the sentence in the middle of the second paragraph,

21     in the English this is page 22, one paragraph but last, it states the

22     following, I quote the sentence:

23             "The local authorities and international humanitarian

24     organisations are said to have compiled lists of people in the enclave,

25     but we have not been able to locate such lists and we doubt their

Page 10145

 1     existence."

 2             This is what is stated in your report.  My basis -- my question

 3     to you is:  Based on what did you express your doubt about the existence

 4     of these lists which we actually have presented here and which we

 5     obtained from the Prosecution?  Thank you.

 6        A.   As I've said previously, we made numerous requests in meetings

 7     with various local and national organisations and also NGOs for such

 8     lists and nobody could provide us with any list.  We also did not get any

 9     affirmative answer on the question, Are there such lists -- or is there

10     such a list?  So we concluded that there were no such lists, at least not

11     available then, and that such lists do not exist.  They could have

12     existed, the exact figures that you quoted, that the mayor quoted, which

13     add up to 37.000, may indicate that there are such lists, but also the

14     counting, such numbers could also be arrived at not by adding up names in

15     a list, but just by more simple counting.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, for today we must come to an end.

17     Your indication for the time used for continuation of cross-examination

18     was one hour 30 minutes to two hours.  You have used now approximately

19     one hour 35 minutes.  How do you want to proceed?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We are

21     going to take a number of questions that were not put here and that the

22     witness suggested we put to Ms. Ewa anyway, so we are going to do that

23     because she is also one of the signatories of the report.

24             I am just going to state the following:  Even the United Nations

25     had this data, and I would just like to show the witness that document.

Page 10146

 1     What I mean to say is the Prosecution had the document; we see that the

 2     United Nations also had this document.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr.  Vanderpuye.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I do want to point

 5     out that we do have some re-direct examination for Mr. -- Dr. Brunborg.

 6     So to the extent that General Tolimir has not concluded his

 7     cross-examination, which I understand he hasn't, we will work out a way

 8     to make or to have Dr. Brunborg available for the continuation of that

 9     cross-examination and for the re-direct examination.  I think we don't

10     have a date yet in the schedule for that, but we will try to work that

11     out between us, the Defence and the Prosecution, so that -- and also

12     Dr. Brunborg with the Court's leave, so that we can have him available,

13     hopefully, to the Court sooner rather than later to complete his

14     testimony.  And I think my understanding is that General Tolimir had

15     estimated initially six hours for the cross-examination of Dr. Brunborg,

16     which he hasn't quite reached yet.  So that having been said, I think

17     that might be a good way forward.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told of the six hours indicated earlier,

19     there are only seven minutes left, but this is different to the

20     estimation for today.

21             I would like to put the following proposal to all present:  We

22     could continue tomorrow.  We are not sitting tomorrow, we are not

23     scheduled for tomorrow, but it is very unfortunate that this witness has

24     to come a third time to The Hague.

25             What is the position first of the witness and secondly of the

Page 10147

 1     parties?

 2             Dr. Brunborg, how is your availability?

 3             THE WITNESS:  If necessary, I would spend another night here.  I

 4     would prefer then to -- that the session were in the morning tomorrow, if

 5     possible, so I could come home, go home at a reasonable time.  Because if

 6     it's in the afternoon, it may -- I may not even be back on Friday night.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've just consulted

10     with Mr. Tolimir.  As far as the Defence is concerned, we have concluded

11     the cross-examination of Mr. Brunborg.  So if there were any outstanding

12     issues or questions, we will put them to the witness who is on the list,

13     and that's Ms. Ewa Tabeau.  Mr. Brunborg mentioned her several times

14     today.  So as far as the Defence is concerned, this witness is free to

15     go, but we are prepared to come in tomorrow as well, if that's in the

16     interests of the Prosecution.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I take it that there's no further

19     cross-examination, we are considering at the moment the possibility that

20     you -- if you don't have too much questions in re-examination, if it's

21     possible to have an extended sitting for ten more minutes and we could

22     resolve the whole problem, if that is enough, for your re-examination?

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  To be frank, Mr. President, I don't think it's

24     enough for the re-examination.  I probably have more closer to half an

25     hour than to ten minutes.

Page 10148

 1             The other thing is:  To the extent that General Tolimir has

 2     concluded his cross-examination as represented by Mr. Gajic, I do want to

 3     inform the Court, and I think it may have been represented already at

 4     the -- some time earlier in the proceedings, that there is the

 5     possibility that we might -- we may not call Dr. Tabeau.  And so if

 6     General Tolimir has questions that he's reserved for Dr. Tabeau that he

 7     wishes to put to this witness, I think it's probably the more prudent

 8     course of action to put it to this witness rather than, if we decide --

 9     the Prosecution decides not to call Dr. Tabeau, claim that he didn't have

10     the ability to put the question.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, Mr. Vanderpuye, the Chamber has received

12     such indication by the Prosecution that Ms. Tabeau will not be called or

13     she will be withdrawn by the Prosecution on the list.  I think we should

14     come to a final decision.

15             Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, because of the

17     testimony of this witness and because he mentioned Ms. Tabeau as being

18     competent to answer certain questions that he cannot answer and since

19     Ewa Tabeau is going to testify based on Rule 92 ter, we believe it would

20     be in the interest of justice that Ms. Tabeau testify after all, since

21     she is on the witness list.  I don't know if I understood correctly,

22     Mr. Vanderpuye will correct me if I'm wrong, she is here with the

23     Prosecutor's Office, so it's not a problem for her to testify at any

24     point necessary.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have now two options:  One is to

Page 10149

 1     resume tomorrow to finalise the examination of the witness.  It seems to

 2     be more in his interest to stay tomorrow morning.  We can't resume at

 3     9.00 because there must be so many organisation.  Interpreters,

 4     court recorder, the security; all that has to be organised.  I think at

 5     the earliest we could resume at, for instance, 11.00.  But I'm not in the

 6     position to decide that immediately.  We have to check with

 7     administration.

 8             The other possibility is - and this is now -- we need your

 9     position, Mr. Vanderpuye - to call the witness again, a third time, to

10     give either -- perhaps you should indicate earlier a final decision if

11     Witness Tabeau is -- will be called or not, and this has a certain impact

12     on the decision of Mr. Tolimir if he would put more questions to the

13     current witness.  I think this is -- would be a wise decision.  But I

14     would like to receive your comment on that.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Would you like me to broach that issue now or

16     would you like me to broach it with Mr. Gajic after the session and

17     inform the Court?  I think in my own personal --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have to give Mr. Brunborg an indication if we

19     would need him tomorrow or not.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think - I think - it is perhaps more

21     convenient to have the session tomorrow.  However, I don't think that I'm

22     in a position at this time to make a definitive determination as to

23     whether or not the Prosecution will call Dr. Tabeau in light of the

24     questions put to Dr. Brunborg.  Since I can't do that tonight, it seems

25     to me that the better course of action would be to have Dr. Brunborg come

Page 10150

 1     back, hopefully not immediately so that it's exhausting for him, but

 2     giving him some period of time to resume his normal activities back home

 3     and then to come back.

 4             Since General Tolimir has completed his cross-examination in any

 5     event, there should be no prejudice whatsoever that iners to the Defence

 6     as a result of delaying that portion of -- delaying the re-direct

 7     examination, essentially.  In fact, it gives him a little bit of time to

 8     digest the transcript and figure out whether or not he has some other

 9     questions he wants to pose as a result of it.

10             But I think given the -- I think, in that circumstance, it can be

11     organised that way, and it just requires a little bit of logistics,

12     co-ordination with Dr. Brunborg, I guess through Victim Witnesses Unit,

13     and Mr. Gajic to accommodate the schedule.  But I don't think it's a

14     problem because it would be a short examination in any event, not more

15     than half an hour to an hour.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

17             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just like to

18     reflect upon one issue regarding the testimony of Ms. Tabeau.  She is on

19     the witness list, and it's not whether the Prosecution wishes or does not

20     wish to call somebody as a witness.  Right now we need a decision by the

21     Chamber.  And if a request is made for Ms. Tabeau not to testify in this

22     case, then we will appeal that.  And we believe that we will prejudice

23     certain things in that appeal and quote some of the words of

24     Mr. Brunborg.

25             As for the witness coming later, in a month or two or three, the

Page 10151

 1     Defence has nothing against that.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This makes the situation even more complicated.

 4     And I think, under these circumstances, there's no way to sit tomorrow

 5     because we would have so many administrative problems to make it possible

 6     to sit tomorrow.  We don't know if there are enough interpreters and

 7     court staff are available.  And in that case I think there will be the

 8     problem of withdrawing Ms. Tabeau.  And we have heard the position of the

 9     Defence.  The name Tabeau was indeed mentioned by Dr. Brunborg several

10     times.  We would like to receive written submissions in this respect so

11     that we can deal with that properly and decide how to work on that.

12             I think we must adjourn, this witness unfinished.

13             I'm very sorry for that, Dr. Brunborg, but that happens

14     sometimes.  We've done what we could to keep you here as much as

15     possible, to finish it, and to -- for your relief, but on the other hand,

16     we would be glad to see you again here in the courtroom to finish your

17     testimony.

18             Mr. Vanderpuye, I see you are still on your feet.  Do you want to

19     raise something?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President, thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm glad for that.  Thank you very much.

22             We adjourn and resume next week, Tuesday, I don't know in the

23     afternoon or in the morning.  I think -- not Monday - we are not sitting

24     on Monday - Tuesday, in the morning, at 9.00 in this courtroom.

25             We adjourn.  Thank you.

Page 10152

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.13 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day

 4                           of February, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.