Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11265

 1                           Tuesday, 15 March 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

 8             Yesterday I raised a matter in relation to a request of the

 9     Defence counsel from another trial.  Yesterday evening I learnt the

10     problem is not a problem of the parties of this trial but the Registry is

11     working on it, and I would like to invite the Registrar to update us.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             Your Honour, the Registry respectfully submits the following.  On

14     10th February 2011 hearing in the Tolimir case both parties, the

15     Prosecution and Defence orally submitted that they have no objection to

16     have any document or submission disclosed to the Popovic et al case, in

17     accordance with the Tolimir Trial Chamber public Decision on Defence

18     request for access to confidential materials in the Prosecutor versus

19     Tolimir, dated 2nd June 2010.

20             Following the parties' submission, the Registry started gradually

21     preparing the confidential inter-party material from the Tolimir case

22     with the 10th February 2011 as the end date of the compilation.  The

23     Registry advised the Chamber of its intention to file a certificate on

24     the case record once the disclosure has been completed.  In the meantime,

25     the guidance from the Chamber has been requested with regard to who the

Page 11266

 1     recipients of the disclosure should be, considering that the decision

 2     grants access to the accused in the Popovic et al case.  At the moment

 3     the Popovic et al case is in the appeals phase, and the accused from the

 4     trial phase have now different status than they had at the time when the

 5     decision was issued.  Considering that the disclosure material has been

 6     finalized in the meantime, and in light of the interpretation of the 2nd

 7     June 2010 decision provided by the Chamber, the Registry will proceed

 8     with the distribution with today's date.

 9             Thank you very much, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yesterday I requested the parties to submit

11     written updates.  This is no longer necessary.

12             Mr. Gajic.

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this morning, in

14     keeping with your instructions yesterday, the Defence submitted a short

15     submission.  We won't withdraw it, because I believe it may be of some

16     use in future.  We are aware of our standing obligation to monitor the

17     material and inform the Registry if something needs not be disclosed.  We

18     hope to submit some material shortly that fall under Rule 70, or perhaps

19     under some other rule that may not be open to access by the

20     Popovic Defence teams.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that information.

22             Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

24             The witness is ready, and I would request a caution as we have

25     been doing.  Thank you.

Page 11267

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 2             We go into closed session for a moment to enable the witness to

 3     enter the courtroom.

 4             The witness should be brought in.

 5                           [Closed session]

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir --

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

12     you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  We have to wait for a moment.

14     Please stand and be patient.

15             Good morning again to you, sir.  Welcome to the courtroom.  Would

16     you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to you

17     now.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Thank you.

19             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

20     and nothing but the truth.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's not the first time that you are giving

24     evidence here in the Tribunal.  I think you know the procedure.  There

25     are protective measures in place for you, a pseudonym; your real name

Page 11268

 1     will not be broadcast, and nobody outside the courtroom will know it.

 2     And there's a face distortion in place.

 3             On the request of the Prosecution, I have to caution you, and I

 4     would like to read out a rule of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

 5             In Rule 90(E), we have the following rule, and I quote:

 6             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

 7     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

 8     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

 9     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

10     offence other than false testimony."

11             Sir, did you understand that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in full.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

14             Mr. McCloskey for the Prosecution has questions for you.

15             Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17                           WITNESS:  PW-075

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

20        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

21             Could we first bring up 65 ter 7209.  And, of course, no

22     broadcast.

23             And, as I'm sure you remember, keep your eyes out, hopefully you

24     can read that.  Is -- is that you, Witness?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 11269

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would then offer the sheet into evidence,

 2     Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7209 shall be

 5     assigned exhibit number P2064, admitted under seal.  Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   And, Witness, do you recall testifying back in November of 2006

 8     in the Popovic et al case?

 9        A.   I do.

10        Q.   And have you had a chance to listen to your testimony recently in

11     that case?

12        A.   Yes, I have.

13        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions, would your answers be

14     the same?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

17             In that event, Mr. President, I would offer 65 ter 6484, a

18     transcript, and 6485, a transcript, into evidence?

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Both documents will be received.  The first one

20     under seal.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 6484 shall be

22     assigned exhibit number P2065.  Admitted under seal.

23             65 ter document 6485 shall be assigned exhibit number P2066.

24     Thank you.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 11270

 1        Q.   And as an associated exhibit admitted through the -- through this

 2     witness, P0018, the Bratunac Brigade military police daily log, I would

 3     offer that in -- or it's already in?

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's already in evidence.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  I'm reminded of that.

 6        Q.   All right.  And, Witness, have you gone over with the

 7     investigators and myself a brief summary of your Popovic testimony?

 8        A.   Yes, I have.

 9        Q.   And did you assist us in getting -- making sure the summary was

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   All right.  I'm going to read that summary and just make sure

13     that it's correct when I'm -- you can either interrupt me if something is

14     wrong, or you can wait until the end to correct it.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  But could we go into private session just for the

16     first brief part of this.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

18                           [Private session]

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 11271

 1     (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The witness recalled that General Mladic,

 5     Colonel Beara, General Krstic, Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel Popovic, he

 6     wasn't quite sure of the rank at the time, General Zivanovic,

 7     Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel Jankovic, he wasn't sure of his rank

 8     either, and an officer named Kosoric arrived in the Bratunac area around

 9     the time of the fall of the Srebrenica enclave, but he did not recall the

10     precise dates or times of their arrival.

11             On the first day that Bosnian Muslims were transported from

12     Potocari, the witness was in Potocari and saw women and children going in

13     a hurry from the area around the Dutch base in Potocari towards buses

14     parked outside.  The Bratunac military police helped secure passage of

15     these buses, which left in the direction of Konjevic Polje.  The witness

16     testified that the Bratunac military police were not involved in the

17     separation of the able-bodied men from the women and children.

18             On the second day of the transportation of women and children

19     from Potocari, the witness was ordered by Momir Nikolic to go to

20     Konjevic Polje in an armoured personnel carrier, or APC.  On this trip,

21     the witness was accompanied by Momir Nikolic and Mile Petrovic.  Shortly

22     after arriving at the Konjevic Polje intersection, Momir Nikolic directed

23     the witness to drive the APC back in the direction of Bratunac, following

24     a civilian police car.  The witness, Mile Petrovic, and Momir Nikolic

25     followed the police car as it moved slowly back towards Bratunac.  As

Page 11272

 1     they drove in the APC, the witness could hear noise coming out of the

 2     loud-speaker on the police car but the witness testified that he could

 3     not make out what was being said.  On their way towards Bratunac, two

 4     Dutch Battalion soldiers appeared along the road and they were allowed to

 5     get in the APC.

 6             Shortly thereafter, the witness turned the APC around and drove

 7     back towards Konjevic Polje.  At about this time, two Muslims came from

 8     the road side and also got in the APC.  Upon their arrival to

 9     Konjevic Polje in the APC, the witness saw some people who he testified

10     were probably Muslims gathered at that intersection.  These people were

11     being directed by soldiers into a ruined building there, which is

12     currently a petrol station.  The two Muslims that the witness had brought

13     to Konjevic Polje were placed in the ruined building along with the

14     others.

15             The witness heard at the time that the Muslims who were held in

16     the building in Konjevic Polje were transferred to Bratunac, where they

17     were housed at the Vuk Karadzic school, the hangar behind the school, and

18     the civil engineering technical school, and in vehicles.  Momir Nikolic

19     instructed the Bratunac military police to assist another unit in

20     securing the Muslims at the Vuk Karadzic school and other locations in

21     Bratunac.

22             While at the Konjevic Polje intersection, the witness saw a

23     convoy of vehicles carrying women and children headed by a UN jeep arrive

24     from the direction of Bratunac.  The convoy of vehicles stopped in

25     Konjevic Polje briefly and then continued in the direction of Milici.

Page 11273

 1             After some time in Konjevic Polje, the witness, together with

 2     Momir Nikolic and Mile Petrovic, set out in the APC back towards

 3     Bratunac.  After about 1 kilometre from the Konjevic Polje intersection,

 4     they encountered a long column of Muslim men walking towards the

 5     intersection that they had come from.  The column was escorted by Serb

 6     soldiers.

 7             On the following day, the witness received an assignment from

 8     Lieutenant-Colonel, or Colonel, Popovic, to take the APC and park the

 9     vehicle at a point along the main road towards Konjevic Polje near the

10     headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade.  While stopped at this location, a

11     fuel tank truck arrived.  Mr. Popovic instructed the witness to fill up

12     the APC with fuel and to move the APC forward 1 kilometre up the road,

13     which the witness did.  At that time, a large convoy of buses and trucks

14     formed behind the witness's APC.  The witness estimated that each of the

15     buses in the column behind him contained 40 to 50 able-bodied men and one

16     VRS soldier.  He was not able to say how many buses there were, as he was

17     not able to see the end of the column when he looked out the APC.

18             Mr. Popovic led the column of vehicles in a blue Golf followed by

19     the witness in the APC.  They all travelled past Konjevic Polje and

20     Zvornik and stopped at a school after the intersection where they turned

21     left from the main road in the general direction towards Sapna.  Upon

22     their arrival, the Bosnian Muslim men got out of the buses and were

23     directed to the school's gymnasium.  The witness testified that he then

24     left the school area after approximately ten buses had emptied.  The

25     witness testified that as he left the school area, Mr. Popovic told him

Page 11274

 1     to stay at the school, but the witness did not follow Mr. Popovic's

 2     instructions and went back to Bratunac.

 3             The witness was aware that Muslim bodies that were previously

 4     buried in the area around Bratunac were exhumed and taken in the

 5     direction of Srebrenica.  The road from Bratunac to Srebrenica was

 6     secured by the Bratunac military police for this job.  The witness was

 7     aware that this job had been handled by the Main Staff.  The witness

 8     believed that he had heard from Momir Nikolic that Colonel Beara was

 9     charged with the reburial task.

10        Q.   Now, Witness, was that a correct account of your testimony?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  I'll just have some brief questions for you.

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me.  We better go into private session for

16     just this question.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

18                           [Private session]

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 11275

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   And in the --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   And in the normal course of command, who could give Momir Nikolic

24     orders?

25        A.   The brigade commander, the Chief of Staff, and the head of

Page 11276

 1     intelligence in the corps, or from the Main Staff.  They could all issue

 2     orders to Momir Nikolic.

 3        Q.   All right.  And did you recall testifying in the last trial about

 4     the military police duties regarding the check-points and convoys?  Can

 5     you tell us just a little bit about what the military police

 6     responsibility was in that regard around the Srebrenica enclave.

 7        A.   The tasks of the military police regarding convoys were to man

 8     the check-points at Zuti Most.  The military police manned that

 9     check-point, checking all the convoys going in and out of Srebrenica.

10     They also checked the papers accompanying those convoys.

11        Q.   And who oversaw your work in checking those convoys and the

12     papers?

13        A.   Momir Nikolic did.

14        Q.   All right.  Now, the -- that day that you've previously testified

15     that you went up in the APC with Momir Nikolic and Mile Petrovic, whose

16     APC was that?

17        A.   That armoured vehicle used to belong to the UN.  I think it was a

18     DutchBat vehicle.

19        Q.   And what colour was it when you drove it to -- to Konjevic Polje

20     that day?

21        A.   It was white.

22        Q.   And did it have UN markings on it, aside from being white?

23        A.   I think it said "UN" on it.

24        Q.   And before heading off that day in that APC, did you see

25     Mr. Popovic anywhere, that very day?

Page 11277

 1        A.   I think he was in the brigade facility or in the compound.

 2        Q.   Well, you've described it in the past.  You probably remember a

 3     rather unique story about Mr. Popovic and General Mladic.  Do you recall

 4     what you said about that?

 5        A.   I'm not sure what you are getting at.

 6        Q.   Did you see General Mladic have some contact with Mr. Popovic?

 7        A.   I don't know whether it was at the time when he wanted to kick

 8     Mr. Popovic, telling him, You're just lazing about.  Go and do something.

 9        Q.   You said General Mladic wanted to kick Popovic.  Did you see him

10     do that?

11        A.   I saw him do that.  Although I don't know whether it was on that

12     day or the day after.  But I did see it.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Tolimir should have the floor.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May peace reign in this

16     house.  I would like to greet everyone, including Mr. McCloskey, and

17     apologise for the interruption.

18             The witness did not say that General Mladic wanted to be rid of

19     Popovic.  He said that he just kicked him.  He didn't say that

20     General Mladic wanted to get rid of him.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And I -- the General must have heard

23     something in -- in B/C/S, because we've never heard anything in English

24     about General Mladic wanting to get rid of him, just kicking him.  So

25     I -- be assured, there is no evidence that General Mladic wanted to get

Page 11278

 1     rid of Popovic, so that must have been a miscommunication of some sort.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  We haven't heard anything like that.

 3     And there's nothing in the transcript.

 4             Please carry on.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 6        Q.   Do you recall yesterday I showed you a photograph.  I'm hoping to

 7     show you the same photograph.  It should be P00444.  And I hope you'll be

 8     able to see it on the screen.

 9             And I'm going to ask -- ask you to draw something on it, if you

10     recognise it.

11             And blow that up to fill the screen.  Okay.

12             Can you see that okay from -- you can stand up if there's a

13     glare.

14        A.   I can see it.

15        Q.   Do you recognise what this photo is of?

16        A.   I think this is the intersection in Konjevic Polje.

17        Q.   And do you see the -- the building that you saw the Muslims go

18     into that day you were at the intersection with the APC?

19        A.   Yes, I can see it.

20        Q.   If they could give you the pen and set that up so that it will

21     draw, I'll ask you to just circle it.  But I think they have to hit a

22     switch or something?

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   All right.  And can you tell us what's at that intersection

25     today?

Page 11279

 1        A.   Today, there's a gas station at the intersection.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer this into evidence.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This marked photograph will be received as an

 5     exhibit.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this document shall be assigned

 7     exhibit number P2067.  Thank you.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   All right.  And there's another photograph that you've been shown

10     over the years, P00061.

11             Can we put that up?

12             Okay.  That should be up there now.  Does that look familiar to

13     you, that photograph.

14        A.   I think this is the school we went to when I followed Popovic and

15     the convoy followed me.

16        Q.   Is there anything in this photo that you remember?  Any of the

17     structures or anything like that?

18        A.   I think it was as it is on the photograph.  I remember next to

19     the school there was a wire fence in the direction of the gym, or an iron

20     fence.  Between the wall and the fence, the people getting off the buses

21     went to the building.

22        Q.   And where did you turn around?  Where did you turn your -- your

23     APC around?

24        A.   I don't know what location you mean.  At the school?  Or at some

25     later point?  What do you mean, where I turned around?

Page 11280

 1        Q.   Yes, at that school area.  Did you -- did you turn around at the

 2     school area?

 3        A.   I turned around where the fence is, the closest fence to us.  The

 4     APC was facing the school.  So basically I was in the same position that

 5     this photograph was taken from.  That is why I could see things.  People

 6     were getting off and filling up the clearing in front of the school.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Could you just mark with an X where you -- the place you

 8     turned around, if you can see it on this photo?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   All right.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer that into evidence, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This marked photograph will be received as an

13     exhibit.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2068.  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I have nothing further, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             Mr. Tolimir, you may now commence your cross-examination.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Once

19     again let me say peace unto this house, and may this day in court and the

20     entire trial reflect God's will, and may the outcome be as God wishes and

21     not as I wish.  I wish the witness a pleasant stay amongst us during his

22     testimony.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to add the following:  You

25     and I speak the same language.  Here, in front of us, there is a screen

Page 11281

 1     with the English translation of what we are saying.  When I stop speaking

 2     and when the cursor stops as it was a moment ago, then you start

 3     speaking, so that we don't overlap so that every word that we speak can

 4     be recorded.

 5             Do you understand?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now begin with the first document the Defence

 8     wishes to tender, P01297.  It's a rule-book of the military police.  And

 9     we want to show it so that the Trial Chamber and everybody sees what the

10     authority of the military police was.  I'm not showing this to try to

11     prove that you did or didn't do anything.  I just want to show what was

12     supposed to be done.

13             Take a look at page 6 in Serbian, which is page 7 in English.

14     Thank you.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  [Previous translation continues] ... Just for the

16     clarity of the record, P1297 has already been admitted into evidence.  No

17     need to be tendered again.  Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Please take a look at the second paragraph and the first two

21     lines of that paragraph.  I quote:

22             "These regulations regulate the bases of command and control of

23     the military police of the ... armed forces."

24             Thank you.  Here's my question.  Have you ever read this

25     rule-book?

Page 11282

 1        A.   I don't know.  I think so, but I'm not sure.

 2        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  In that case, please be patient, and

 3     take a look at page 9 in Serbian, which is page 10 in English.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             Now we see it.  And now we'll read out.  You say you don't

 6     remember and I wouldn't remember either if there weren't this rule-book.

 7     Although we can't see item 12, paragraph 12.  Please enlarge it so that

 8     both the witness and I see it.  Now we see paragraph 12.  I will now

 9     quote something that we should bear in mind during our conversation,

10     since you don't remember.

11             Paragraph 12 in chapter 2 of the military police rule-book reads,

12     I quote:

13             "The officer in charge of the military unit and institution

14     within whose establishment the military police unit is placed, or to

15     which it is attached, commands and controls the military police."

16             Here's my question:  Can you say, based on this, to which

17     military unit your military police platoon belonged?

18        A.   The military police platoon belonged to the Bratunac Brigade.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In keeping with paragraph 12, was the commanding

20     officer of the unit to which the military police unit belonged supposed

21     to -- or authorised to command that military police unit?  Thank you.

22        A.   I did not have contact with the commander.  Momir Nikolic did.

23     And he issued and forwarded orders from the brigade.  Whether or not he

24     received orders from the brigade commander, I don't know.

25        Q.   Thank you.  But was the brigade commander supposed to command the

Page 11283

 1     military police of the brigade?  I'm not asking how it really was in

 2     practice.

 3        A.   The brigade commander was supposed to command, but directly or

 4     indirectly, I don't know.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Please now take a look at paragraph 13.  I will quote

 6     the part that's relevant for this trial:

 7             "With respect to specialty, the officer in charge of the security

 8     body of the unit or institution within whose establishment the military

 9     police units is placed or to which it is attached controls the military

10     police."

11             Does this chapter 13 say that the military police, from the

12     professional point of view, is commanded by the security officer of the

13     brigade?  Thank you.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at sentence two in paragraph 13:

16             "He makes suggestions to the officer in charge of the military

17     unit or institution on the use of military police units and is

18     responsible for the combat readiness of the military police unit and the

19     performance of their tasks."

20             Here's my question: Does it follow from this second sentence that

21     he makes proposals to you on the use of the units and is responsible for

22     its combat readiness and the performance of its tasks?  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we had a translation error, because it is

25     suggested someone is making proposals to the witnesses, and I don't think

Page 11284

 1     that's what the General meant.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you please clarify this, and

 3     perhaps rephrase your question.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   In sentence two of chapter 13, it says:  "He makes suggestions or

 7     proposals to the officer" --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes,

 9     Mr. Tolimir.  Mr. Tolimir.  Mr. Tolimir, it is not necessary to read this

10     part again; we have it on the record.  The problem was you are recorded

11     as having said, Does it follow from this second sentence that he makes

12     proposals to you on the use of the units.

13             Was that really your question, or was it something else?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

Page 11285

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There was a -- could we go into private session.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

 3                           [Private session]

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

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25     (redacted)

Page 11286











11     Pages 11286-11296 redacted. Private session.















Page 11297

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have page 6 of

 7     this document, line 8 and 9.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should not be broadcast.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  It shouldn't be

10     broadcast.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I would just like the witness to read for himself line 8 and 9.

13     I don't really have to read it out loud.  And then when you read it,

14     please tell us that you have read it.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we have the English.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's on the screen now.

18             Which line is it in English, Mr. Tolimir?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  In English, it's the

20     line containing the word "Tuzla."  Line 9.

21             Now let me take a look.  I don't really understand English, so

22     maybe my assistant can help me.  No, it seems that this is not the right

23     page.

24             Can we have page 6 in e-court.  Page 6 of this document so that

25     we can find the relevant part.  Thank you.

Page 11298

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have page 6 on the screen, but I don't

 2     see the word "Tuzla."

 3             Please check the page number again.  It may be page 6 in B/C/S,

 4     but I'm not sure if in English we have the same page number.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  So do you have the

 6     document that ends with the 306, the ERN number should end with 306?

 7     That's how we can figure out whether that's the relevant page or not.

 8     Thank you.

 9             I can see that this is not the relevant page because, in first

10     line, we find no mention of the month of December, which is present in

11     Serbian.  So this is 78306.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic will assist you, I'm sure.

13             We are approaching the first break time.  Perhaps we should have

14     our first break now, and during the break you could figure out which page

15     you need in the English.

16             We must have our first break now.  The court usher will assist

17     you during the break and we will resume at 11.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please continue.  And I hope you

21     have found the relevant page in the English.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We found it.  It's page

23     5 in English, and page 6 in English [as interpreted] and the lines are

24     8 -- or, rather, 7 and 8 in English, on page 5.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said page 5 in English and page 6 in English.

Page 11299

 1     I think you were referring to page 6 in B/C/S; is that correct?

 2             Mr. Gajic.

 3             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's page 5 in both

 4     languages.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Let me quote from lines 7 through 9 so you know what you said and

 9     then I would like to hear your comment.

10             First, you say:  "After that, when the war broke out in 1992, can

11     you describe to me what you were doing at this stage?"

12             This was the question of the Prosecutor.

13             And you answer:  "Before the attack against the army, I had taken

14     a vacation, because I was due to take my regular vacation.  And since, at

15     that time," --

16             Yeah, end of quote.  Who attacked which army in Tuzla?  We must

17     state that precisely for the transcript.  And when was that?  Can you

18     answer this question so that it becomes clear what exactly is meant?

19     Thank you.

20        A.   It was on 15 May 1992.  Some sort of Territorial Defence or the

21     Green Berets, I don't know who it was, and what they called themselves.

22     They attacked the army at Brcanska Malta.  The army units were leaving

23     the barracks in Tuzla.

24        Q.   Thank you.  The Green Berets of the Muslim army attacked the JNA

25     convoy leaving Tuzla or maybe the VJ convoy.  You just said military

Page 11300

 1     units and that is a bit vague.  Thank you.

 2        A.   The army in question was the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.

 3     And it was the army of all of Yugoslavia, the JNA.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  My question is: Can you tell the Trial Chamber who it

 5     was that attacked the Yugoslav People's Army units in Tuzla in May 1992?

 6     Do you know that?  Thank you.

 7        A.   The army was attacked, the Green Berets, the Muslim people

 8     attacked the army on 15 May.  I don't know for which reason.  Probably

 9     because they had left this army and the soldiers in that army were Serbs.

10     They were the ones who had stayed in the barracks.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Was there a reason for them to kill those soldiers,

12     if the soldiers were leaving?  And where were the soldiers going from the

13     barracks once they had left the barracks for all time?  Thank you.

14        A.   Clearly, there was no reason to kill people.  I guess they were

15     supposed to withdraw from the barracks and leave the barracks for all

16     time.  What do I know?

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you say, roughly, if you remember, how many Serb

18     soldiers or soldiers of the JNA were killed when they were leaving Tuzla

19     and tried to go to Serbia?  Thank you.

20        A.   I don't know how many were killed.  I know that that -- they were

21     many and that all vehicles were burnt and people were being killed.

22     Children, young soldiers.  I don't know the exact number.  I wasn't in

23     Tuzla at the time.  I had left Tuzla already before that event.  And I

24     don't know the numbers in question.  I know what the media reported about

25     it, but I don't remember the numbers.

Page 11301

 1        Q.   Thank you.  They killed many.  Do you remember whether they were

 2     more than 200 or fewer than 200?  What do you remember from the media

 3     reports?  Thank you.

 4        A.   I don't know exactly how many.  I really can't recall the number.

 5     I only know that it was a large number.  Many people were killed.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether, later on, anyone was held

 7     responsible for this large number of JNA soldiers who were killed in

 8     Tuzla and on their way to Serbia?  Thank you.

 9        A.   As far as I know, nobody was held responsible.  I even watched on

10     TV when people wanted to leave flowers there or a plaque, but the people

11     who were there, the population, didn't allow that.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether Tuzla was

13     inhabited by Serbs and, if you know, state the percentage of the Serb

14     population there, since you lived there?  Thank you.

15        A.   Many Serbs lived in Tuzla.  There were even some neighbourhoods

16     where the Serbs were the majority of the population.  But, of course,

17     there were also other ethnicities living there, Muslims, Croats, and

18     everybody else.  But there was a huge number of Serbs.

19        Q.   Thank you.  There's still a huge number of Serbs living in Tuzla

20     where you used to live.  And, if not, where are they now?  Thank you.

21        A.   No.  I think that very few Serbs now live in Tuzla.  They all

22     went to Serbia.  I think most of them went to the area around Bijeljina.

23     But they are now all dispersed.  They are no longer in Tuzla where they

24     lived before.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether the houses in which you lived and

Page 11302

 1     the other inhabitants of your village or town, are they now in the

 2     possession of Serbs or somebody else, or are they burned and devastated?

 3     What do you know about that?  Thank you.

 4        A.   They are burned and devastated.  Normal -- clearly, the

 5     population was expelled and hardly anybody now lives there.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know of any example of a village which was not

 7     burned?  Or, rather, which was burned?  Can you mention the names of at

 8     least one or two villages?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Yes.  There is Pozarnica, Kovacevo Selo [phoen], Simin Han,

10     Caklovici, I don't know.  These are the places where the Serbs were the

11     majority of the population, especially Pozarnica.  There -- there were

12     practically only Serbs living there.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now take a look at page 6 in e-court, lines 12

14     through 14.  I'll read them out to you, and then I'll ask you a question.

15     Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's also -- it's -- it's also page

17     6 in English and the lines are 13 through 15.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 11303

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone

 2     not activated] Mr. Tolimir, I think the last part should be redacted.

 3     And if you are continuing dealing with the position of the witness, we

 4     should go into private session.

 5             Do you agree?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, I agree.

 7     I will rephrase the question.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Why didn't you receive an order --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Previous translation continues]... no.  Please,

11     we go into private session.  And the relevant part, your last question,

12     will be redacted.  And then you may continue.

13                           [Private session]

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

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22     (redacted)

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25     (redacted)

Page 11304











11     Pages 11304-11326 redacted. Private session.















Page 11327

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 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Please tell us, did you, at the end of this interview we're

23     talking about, and the transcript of which we have, ask about your status

24     and what was the answer provided?  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document should not be broadcast.

Page 11328

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   To avoid any dilemma, let us take a look at page 93, lines 10

 4     through 15.  Thank you.

 5             Let me read it out.  You say in line 10:  "I don't have a phone.

 6     I don't have anything.  What is my status?"

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... I think we

 8     have to go back into a private session if you are dealing with the status

 9     of the witness.

10             We turn back into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

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Page 11329











11     Pages 11329-11333 redacted. Private session.















Page 11334

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We must have our second

 8     break now, and we will resume at 1.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please continue your

12     cross-examination, but please be aware that we are in open session.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You remember what I quoted before.  I don't want to repeat it

16     because we are now in open session.  So you remember the situation that I

17     described as page 59, lines 14 to 19.  And you can see it on the screen

18     in front of you.

19             My question is as follows.  Was it on the 12th, the first day, or

20     the 13th, or the 14th?  Can you tell us the date and the time, at least

21     whether it was morning or afternoon when you were there at that --

22     whether you were there at that object?

23        A.   I don't remember the date, but it was afternoon.

24        Q.   Thank you.  So can we exclude the first day, the 12th?  That was

25     the day of the beginning of the evacuation which began in the afternoon.

Page 11335

 1     Thank you.

 2        A.   I don't know exactly on which date the evacuation started.  I

 3     know that women and children were evacuated first, and men only later on.

 4     I don't know which day that was.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  But if you take into account what you were doing, can

 6     you tell us whether it was on the first day, the day when the women went?

 7     So maybe you don't remember the date, but, tell us, was it on the first

 8     day?

 9        A.   It wasn't on the first day.  I said that, first, women and

10     children were evacuated, so it means that this must have happened after

11     that.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So could it have been then on the 12th or the 13th or

13     the 14th?

14        A.   It's possible.  But I don't know the date.  I said that this

15     event occurred after the evacuation.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you maybe try to remember if you recall what were

17     the tasks performed by your unit?  The investigator asked you what they

18     were doing and where they were doing it.  So could you maybe try to

19     remember when this event occurred in relation to the activities carried

20     out by your unit?  Thank you.

21        A.   I don't know when exactly it was.  I know what the unit was

22     doing, but I don't know exactly when.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you think that it would be possible to establish

24     that, based on the information contained in the diary that we looked at

25     before?  If we look at the activities that were recorded there.

Page 11336

 1        A.   Well, maybe.  It's possible.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  A moment ago, you said that you went up to the

 3     separation line.  I don't want to mention the locality.  And you said

 4     that, to you, it seemed logical because it was possible to cross to the

 5     Muslim-held territory from that point.

 6             Did I understand you correctly?

 7        A.   Yes.  Because there was a sign with an arrow pointing towards

 8     that particular locality.  That is why I assumed that we were going

 9     towards that place.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who exactly is the officer who is in a

11     position to authorise the crossing of a large number of POWs from his

12     territory to the other territory?  Who is the officer who could authorise

13     something like that?

14        A.   I think we already spoke about it.  I think I said that it was

15     the order by General Ratko Mladic.  So that was the main commanding

16     officer of the whole army.  Who else could have ordered something like

17     that?

18        Q.   All right.  So that's what you were told.

19             My question is then:  Was it possible for your brigade commander

20     to decide something like that on his level or some other officer who was

21     maybe on a lower level, or on a higher level, but not in the Main Staff?

22     Thank you.

23        A.   I think that if a brigade commander ordered something like that,

24     he could have done it within his territory, the territory controlled by

25     his brigade.  I am not sure that he would be able to take people to some

Page 11337

 1     other area.  I think that only the Main Staff and the commander of the

 2     army could have ordered something like that.

 3        Q.   So could you be held responsible for escorting a column if it was

 4     the main commander of the whole Army of Republika Srpska who decided that

 5     they were to be taken there, as it says here, "taken there in groups and

 6     handed over."

 7             Could you be held responsible for something like that?

 8        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, at the time, I was even proud, in a

 9     way, that those people were able to move in an orderly fashion, safely

10     without being mistreated and that they were allowed to cross to the

11     territory where they wanted to be.  To me, it was logical that they were

12     going there, and it was probably because of that that I felt a kind of

13     pride.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you returned alone from that particular

15     locality where you escorted the column.  We cannot say that you took them

16     there.  You simply escorted them there.  Is that true?

17        A.   Yes.  I returned and two people who were together with me in the

18     vehicle going there, they also returned with me.  So as soon as there was

19     enough space between the vehicles for me to pass, I turned and went back.

20        Q.   Thank you.  During this interview, you were asked a number of

21     questions about certain localities and certain areas and what the members

22     of your unit were doing there.  I hope that we don't need to close the

23     session for this question.  If it's necessary, we are going to move to

24     closed session.

25             Did you, as the responsible person within your unit, were you the

Page 11338

 1     person responsible to carry out all the assignments that came through

 2     your commander or through persons designated as intermediaries?

 3        A.   Well, there should be order in every house.  Equally, there

 4     should be order in every army.  So if I am to observe all the rules, it

 5     means that I also have to accept all orders and carry them out.  All

 6     orders have to be carried out.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  A moment ago, you said that as a member of an army

 8     you were proud that the fate of those people ended in this particular

 9     fashion.  Can you tell me, was anybody able to change this plan for

10     exchange?  Because, of course, you don't know what happened to those

11     people later on because you were not there; you went back.

12        A.   I went back immediately.  I don't know what happened to them.  I

13     have no idea.  I simply went back, and I don't know what happened.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Bearing in mind your function, could you be held

15     personally responsible for some events that happened in some other

16     territory, if you brought the people to that other territory?

17        A.   The responsible person is, first of all, the person who issued

18     the order.  Furthermore, the responsible person is the person who did it.

19     But, in any case, it is the person who issued the order who is

20     responsible.  So if the order was to take those people there, then that's

21     exactly what should have been done.  That should have been the end of

22     that assignment and not to change things this way or that way.  That

23     shouldn't happen in an army.

24             You know very well that such decisions should not be changed so

25     easily.

Page 11339

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Later on, during this interrogation, shall we put it

 2     that way, or interview, you were asked why this person went there, or why

 3     that person went to this area, or that zone, so now I want to ask you:

 4     When we talk about all the assignments carried out by you and your unit,

 5     did you receive for all of them orders from the brigade command through

 6     the usual command chain that functioned for you?

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

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15     (redacted)

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23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 11340

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 5     (redacted)

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14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17             [Interpretation] So that's why I think that it could be

18     sufficient to identify the witness.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We will redact that part

20     and your last comment.

21             Thank you.  Mr. Tolimir, you may carry on.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I

23     apologise, it wasn't my intention to protect anybody but the witness.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   My next question is: Despite the small number of people who

Page 11341

 1     worked with you, did you carry out your assignments in a satisfactory

 2     way?

 3        A.   I think that those things were done the best way we could do

 4     them.  We couldn't have done them better.

 5             There was a large number of tasks, and I also forgot to mention

 6     one thing.  There was a number of members of the military police - I

 7     don't know exactly how many of them - who were assigned to the personal

 8     escort of General Mladic.  That means that they were with him all the

 9     time.  And then, I don't know which date that was, they went to secure

10     the road between Bratunac and Pribicevac.  So I don't think how long that

11     road is through the woods, maybe around 30 kilometres.  So you can

12     imagine what number of people, what manpower, would be necessary to

13     secure that road in a satisfactory way.  But somehow we managed to do

14     that too.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber, were you satisfied

16     with the life and work of all the people who worked together with you,

17     bearing in mind all the activities that took place there and in the

18     vicinity, bearing in mind that they were tasked with securing just about

19     everybody?

20        A.   If you are referring to the period while we secured persons and

21     facilities, as far as I know, they worked in a professional manner and

22     within their capabilities.

23        Q.   Thank you for the answers you provided during this examination.

24     The Defence is grateful to you for coming to testify.  We have no further

25     questions.  As far as we, the Defence are concerned, we wish you a safe

Page 11342

 1     return home and may God bless you and protect you on all your -- in all

 2     your travels.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has

 4     finished examining this witness.  We thank everybody who helped us and

 5     apologise if we disrupted anybody from doing something they wanted to do.

 6             I would like to mention that this witness has been in The Hague

 7     about a week to give evidence.  But you can ask him if you -- if you

 8     wish.  Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.

11             Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

14        Q.   Witness, do you remember in the Popovic case when we went over

15     the military police log which went day by day, and you talked about what

16     you could remember through those dates?

17        A.   I remember that we spoke then.

18        Q.   All right.  And did going over the military police log help

19     organise your thoughts about what happened on various dates?  Just

20     roughly.

21        A.   That's more or less all right, but I did mention that these daily

22     reports were not made very regularly.  But probably some dates can be

23     found that can jog one's memory.

24        Q.   All right.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, Your Honour, that is in his

Page 11343

 1     previous testimony.  I think it does provide some help regarding dates so

 2     it's not my intention to go over that.  That's already there, and while

 3     it was brought up, I just would remind you that it's there, and I don't

 4     intend to go into that.

 5        Q.   Witness, you have just answered on page 75 and 76 to the General

 6     that you felt that you carried out all your assignments in a satisfactory

 7     way and that there were many tasks.  And you described some of them as

 8     preventing looting and guarding General Mladic.  Did your unit also --

 9     were they also present when women and children were getting on the buses

10     in Potocari?

11        A.   If they were present, they could only have been with

12     General Ratko Mladic, because they were his security detail.  And if he

13     was there, then they were only there to protect him personally,

14     General Mladic.

15        Q.   Do you remember the -- the pictures in the video I showed you

16     last time that two of your MPs, they were clearly identified by their --

17     their arm-bands.  And one had a -- one had a little notebook.  Do you

18     remember that photo and video I showed you last time of them in Potocari,

19     helping women and children get on buses?

20        A.   That's possible.  I remember the photograph, and they may have

21     helped.  And who was in a position to issue them orders then, but

22     General Ratko Mladic.  He was with them.  And if he told them to do so,

23     then they probably did.  They probably did help the people to get on the

24     buses.

25        Q.   And do you know if your military police officers that were in

Page 11344

 1     Potocari on those two days of the transportation of the population, were

 2     they engaged in separating the able-bodied men from the women and

 3     children?

 4        A.   No, they didn't take part in that.

 5        Q.   All right.  I'd like to -- I'd like to bring up a document.

 6     It's -- we've now given it a number, 07253.  It's from that same --

 7     excuse me, that same collection from some of the documents that

 8     General Tolimir used.  And we should have an English translation for

 9     this.  And I would also like to remind you of your answer, that you say

10     you heard from Popovic that General Mladic intended to have the people

11     that you escorted up past Zvornik exchanged.  And so, on those two

12     topics, let's take a little look at this document.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, we are in open session.  You are

14     aware of that, are you?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you for reminding me.  I don't -- I hope I

16     won't get into anything, and I hope I didn't say anything that was

17     problematic, and there shouldn't be anything specifically on this

18     document.

19        Q.   And we see here, I don't know if you can read it very well, but

20     it's a document that's from the Drina Corps IKM, or forward command post,

21     dated 12 July, 1530 hours, and it's very urgent.  And if we go to the

22     bottom of the B/C/S version, we see it's from Vujadin Popovic.  And it

23     talks about the situation with the enemy in paragraph 1.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to the next paragraph in English.

25        Q.   Paragraph 2, it talks about the situation from UNPROFOR, that

Page 11345

 1     they "did not offer resistance and did not fire on our forces; the

 2     command and the majority of the military hardware is still in the base in

 3     Potocari.  The check-point in Bljeceva also surrendered and later today

 4     they are coming to the barracks in Bratunac.  UNPROFOR soldiers are

 5     assisting in loading women and children into the vehicles."

 6             Paragraph 2, is that correct, as far as your knowledge?  And,

 7     yeah, they will blow that up for you, because I know it's not easy to

 8     read.

 9        A.   I don't know what this means, "surrendered," as it says here.

10             I know that there was no combat between UNPROFOR and the VRS.

11     Nobody opened fire on the other.  I don't know what else.

12        Q.   Well, this document says that the UNPROFOR surrendered to the

13     VRS.  I believe your version of it was that they came to you for safety.

14     And, frankly, we've heard both in this case.  Were you aware of any

15     UNPROFOR soldiers surrendering to the VRS, as stated by Mr. Popovic in

16     this document?

17        A.   They came to the brigade command of their own accord.  They were

18     coming in vehicles and in groups.  Now, whether somebody had sent them

19     from up there or not, but -- I don't know.  But I know nobody -- nobody

20     was taken prisoner and that there was no combat.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, since you've mentioned that, let me just go

22     back to something.

23             You had mentioned that the UN troops that were held or were

24     staying, I'll say, you said they were staying in Bratunac, stayed there,

25     and you thought because they couldn't get back to their base in Potocari

Page 11346

 1     because of safety concerns.  That's on page 65.  And, sir, we have seen

 2     that there were Dutch soldiers at the Hotel Fontana, the night Karremans

 3     came to the Hotel Fontana and met General Mladic during this

 4     transportation period.  As you said, you -- your -- you and your unit

 5     were responsible for the security of the hotel at that time for that

 6     meeting, weren't you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us if -- if safety in getting back to their base in

 9     Potocari was an issue, why didn't the UN soldiers at the Hotel Fontana

10     and the others in Bratunac just go back through Zuti Most with

11     Colonel Karremans and his entourage?

12        A.   I apologise, but there's a misunderstanding.

13             Firstly, I said that they were leaving their check-points around

14     the enclave of Srebrenica.  They were leaving those check-points to come

15     to Bratunac.  When they arrived at Bratunac, they didn't want to go any

16     further.  They probably meant because of the order that the General

17     mentioned engaging these forces or any other forces.  So they weren't

18     safe at the check-points where they had been in the forest, and they were

19     able to return to their base safely at Potocari.  Because buses were

20     going there with women and children but they didn't want to go there.

21     Probably they were afraid that they could be sent to carry out other

22     assignments, and they were comfortable right where they were.

23        Q.   So you think the Dutch soldiers that were in Bratunac preferred

24     to be in a school in Bratunac, as opposed to 5 kilometres down the road

25     with their base and their belongings and their people?

Page 11347

 1        A.   Yes, I think so.  What other reason could they have had not to

 2     return to their base?

 3        Q.   Well, the -- Colonel Karremans and other Dutch witnesses have

 4     said that they were held as hostages and the VRS threatened to hurt them

 5     if there were any more air-strikes.  Did you hear that, that they were

 6     held as hostages to prevent air-strikes?

 7        A.   That's not what I heard, that they were held hostage.  I don't

 8     know who told you that.  Or them.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Let -- let's get back to this -- this document.

10             And I'll remind us that you said your people were not involved in

11     the separations of anyone.

12             Let's go to paragraph 3.  And it says:  "A refugee group of about

13     30 to 35.000 women, children, elderly, and [sic] infirm and the sick is

14     located after beyond the UNPROFOR base towards Srebrenica, on the road

15     and inside the facilities of the former factories."

16             Is that correct?  Is that where a lot of the Muslim Potocaris

17     [sic] were in the factories and around the UN base at that time?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   "The security was established and the evacuation to Kladanj

20     started.  About 5.000 women and children were evacuated so far.  We are

21     separating men from 17 to 60 years of age and we are not transporting

22     them.  We have about 70 of them so far and the security organs and the

23     state security, the DB, are working with them."

24             So here Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic is telling the Main Staff and

25     the Drina Corps that he -- he says "we" are separating the men.

Page 11348

 1             You were working with Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic the following

 2     day, when you went up towards Zvornik.  Who is Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic

 3     talking about taking part in the separating?  He certainty couldn't do it

 4     by himself.

 5        A.   I don't know who he could have meant.  Probably the soldiers.  We

 6     were all soldiers at the time.

 7             If he meant me, well, the two of us were hardly able to do all

 8     that.  I don't know who else.  Somebody certainly did it ...

 9        Q.   Well, this Chamber has heard from one Bratunac Brigade military

10     policeman that helped count the number of separated men and provided

11     those very large numbers to Main Staff Colonel Jankovic.  You remember --

12     did you know of military police involved in the counting of those

13     separated men?

14        A.   No, I have already said that I didn't know.  I don't know that

15     anybody counted that, be it the military police or anybody else.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I have about 15 or 20 minutes

17     left.  Some of the things I need to correct the record on, and I must say

18     that this witness has been very flexible and agreeable for staying.  He

19     has actually helped us stay here, because other witnesses had a stricter

20     schedule.  So if we could bring him back -- I know we're out of time.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I have a personal problem.  I have

22     a very urgent appointment now, so that we can't sit longer today.  You

23     may continue with your re-examination tomorrow morning, if that is

24     possible, and the witness is still here.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  That is what I was

Page 11349

 1     suggesting.  Tomorrow, it shouldn't be long and my guess he is probably

 2     scheduled to go for tomorrow anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem.  But,

 3     we can, of course, ask the witness.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think so.  He will be available, I'm sure,

 5     after having looked at the schedule.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Before I forget, could I just offer this document

 7     into evidence.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are in a quite similar situation.  I didn't

 9     see that the witness could give some information about the content of

10     this document, and we don't know, like with the other two documents,

11     about the authentication.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The authentication issue is one that is important

13     as you could tell from my reactions to the similar documents, and we will

14     be providing a motion on that particular issue because it is a rather

15     unique situation that the Defence is aware of.

16             I could briefly -- well, I know it's time.  Perhaps we --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the moment, we mark it for identification.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7253 shall be

20     assigned exhibit number P2069, marked for identification.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  You may deal with that

22     problem tomorrow.  Yeah.

23             We must adjourn for the day.

24             You may be reminded that no contact to either party is allowed

25     for you during the break.

Page 11350

 1             We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

 5                           March, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.