Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12007

 1                           Wednesday, 30 March 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon.

 6             As you can see, only two Judges are present today.  Judge Nyambe

 7     is not able to attend because of another commitment.  The Chamber decided

 8     to sit with two Judges, pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

 9             The witness should be brought in, please.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11                           WITNESS:  LJUBOMIR OBRADOVIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon.  Sit down, please.

14             Welcome back to the courtroom.  I have to remind you that the

15     affirmation to tell the truth still applies.  Mr. McCloskey has

16     additional questions for you.

17             Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

19             Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honour, Judge Mindua,

20     everyone.

21                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

22        Q.   Sir, we should go where we left off, which was P1214.  And if we

23     could be in page 8 in English and page 13 of the B/C/S.  And if we'll

24     recall, this is the Directive for Upcoming Operations 7.

25             And, General, I just -- we've talked a bit about which branches

Page 12008

 1     or which people have contributed to various parts of this document.  Now

 2     we see the section entitled "Unit Assignments," and then it starts with

 3     the Krajina Corps and the 2nd Krajina Corps, and then works its way

 4     through the corps.

 5             Can you tell us, who or which branches would have provided the

 6     information that directs these -- the corps regarding these various

 7     military objectives?

 8        A.   The Administration for Operations and Education, as well as the

 9     Organ for Branches, follow and monitor the situation in the units, the

10     level of their manning, and the chief of the administration gives the

11     proposal for the use of his own forces.

12        Q.   So that the chief of the Administration of Operations and

13     Training would be the one drafting these -- this information?

14        A.   He proposes the engagement of his own forces, which means the

15     troops, the military.

16        Q.   All right.  So at -- for this directive, that would have been

17     General Miletic?

18        A.   Probably.

19        Q.   And the actual wording in this, could that be changed by the

20     president or another -- General Tolimir, General Mladic, another senior

21     officer, could they offer languages for this draft before it's actually

22     sent to the president for his review and signature?

23        A.   The chief of the administration gives this proposal to the Chief

24     of Staff; if not him, then the commander.  The commander can then adopt

25     it fully, partially, or after some corrections have been made.

Page 12009

 1        Q.   All right.  So is it fair to say that while General Miletic

 2     drafts most of this, that it's impossible to tell precisely which person

 3     drafted an individual sentence or section?

 4        A.   The basis for the use of the troops is provided by the chief of

 5     the administration.  Whether the superior to whom he submits his proposal

 6     will make changes or whether he will fully adopt the proposal depends on

 7     the moment, the conditions, and the way of thinking on the part of the

 8     superior.

 9        Q.   All right.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go over a couple of pages to the

11     Drina Corps section, which should be, in Serbian, page 15.  It should be

12     page 10 in the English.  And we've all seen this before.

13        Q.   And I -- so in concentrating on the Drina Corps, the first part

14     of it talks about:

15             "Enemy breakthroughs along the selected operative-tactical lines

16     should be prevented by extremely persistent and active defence in

17     co-operations with part of the forces of the SRK on the north-west part

18     of the war front and around the enclaves.  As many enemy forces as

19     possible should be tied down by diversionary and active combat operations

20     on the north-west part of the front ..."

21        A.   "North-west," yes.

22        Q.   " ... using operational and tactical camouflage measures ..."

23             And this is the part I call your attention to:

24             "... while in the direction of Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves,

25     complete physical separation of Srebrenica from Zepa should be carried

Page 12010

 1     out as soon as possible, preventing even communication between

 2     individuals in the two enclaves.  By planned and well-thought-out combat

 3     operations, create an unbearable situation of total insecurity with no

 4     hope of further survival or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and

 5     Zepa."

 6             Now, my first question is:  Now, I know you weren't there and

 7     didn't take part in this drafting, but do you know, from gaining

 8     knowledge after the fact, who actually wrote out this section:

 9             "... by planned and well-thought-out combat operations, create an

10     unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival

11     or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa"?

12             Do you know who actually wrote that in there?

13        A.   I don't know.  I never came by information as to who composed

14     that part or that particular sentence.

15        Q.   Okay.  And the next sentence:

16             "In case the UNPROFOR forces leave Zepa and Srebrenica, the

17     Drina Corps shall plan an operations named Jadar, with the task of

18     breaking up and destroying the Muslim forces in these enclaves and

19     definitively liberating the Drina Valley region."

20             Can we read this to mean that there would not be an operation to

21     take out the enclaves until the UNPROFOR forces left, back when they were

22     signing this in March of 1995?

23        A.   Your Honours, I don't know what estimates were used in order to

24     foresee the departure of UNPROFOR.  I suppose that this is based on some

25     intelligence, some information, but I don't know whose, because UNPROFOR

Page 12011

 1     and its status and its stay in the area were all a matter of politics and

 2     agreements which were reached at a higher level.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             I would like to greet everybody present in the courtroom.  May

 6     God's peace reign in this house, and may God's will be done in these

 7     proceedings, and not necessarily mine.

 8             Your Honours, this witness did not participate in the drafting of

 9     the directive.  He just threw a perfunctory glance at it.  And now he's

10     being asked to speculate.  He is asked to provide desirable answers on

11     something that he doesn't know because he never participated in that.

12     Please bear that in mind.  The witness did not participate in the

13     drafting of this directive.  He didn't write it.  He said he didn't know.

14     So I'm sure that he doesn't know anything about the case of departure.

15             Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we heard the answer of the witness,

17     that he doesn't know anything, who drafted this part of the Directive 7.

18     However, we have seen in this court so many documents where both parties

19     put questions to the witnesses of their understanding of the document,

20     and this is exactly what Mr. McCloskey did with this witness now, asking

21     about his understanding of this document as an insider, as a person who

22     was taking -- was a member of the relevant army.  So I don't see that

23     point.

24             Mr. Tolimir.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Your Honour, may I just respond briefly,

Page 12012

 1     because --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think Mr. Tolimir should add something, and

 3     then you may respond.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             I apologise to you.  The interpretation was of Mr. McCloskey's

 6     words as to who wrote this.  This is how -- the interpretation that I

 7     received.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Perhaps he didn't get the question.  That was:

10     Did you learn, after you returned, who wrote this, which is what I

11     actually said.  And --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You received an answer, I think.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

14             And just to correct the record -- well, I can ask the witness on

15     this point.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Please continue.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   Sir, this directive was -- included the operations for the

19     time-frame that would have applied to you after your return to the

20     Main Staff, would it not?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So when you retrieved this from the strong-box and read it, did

23     it have any application to you at the time of what your supreme

24     commanders might want to have in mind for the upcoming period?

25        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I said that I threw just a perfunctory look at

Page 12013

 1     it.  I did it discreetly, unbeknownst to Mr. -- to General Miletic.  This

 2     is a lengthy document.  I didn't have time to read all of it.  I just

 3     leafed through it, I looked at some segments, and then I returned it.

 4        Q.   All right.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, let's go to B/C/S page 19.  It should be 14

 6     in the English.

 7        Q.   And I want to direct your attention to -- it's under the title

 8     "Support for Combat Operations:  Moral and Psychological Support."  And I

 9     want you to go down to paragraph 4, and it says --

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, not paragraph 4, but the fourth paragraph

11     under 6.1.  It's the next page.  Thank you.

12        Q.   And I'll --

13        A.   Can we go back, please?  Please, could you read the beginning of

14     what you want me to look at.  The document has been moved to the

15     following page, and I can see "Command and Control" there at the bullet

16     point 7.  Now it's okay.

17        Q.   Yeah, that's not going to contain the part I want.  It's going to

18     be the fourth paragraph, so we need to go over to the next page.  I think

19     it is the --

20        A.   Very well, then.

21        Q.   -- paragraph up.  It begins:

22             "The relevant state and military organs responsible for work with

23     UNPROFOR ..."

24             Do you see that section?

25        A.   I do.

Page 12014

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             "... and humanitarian organisations shall, through the planned

 3     and unobtrusively restrictive issuing of permits, reduce and limit the

 4     logistics support of UNPROFOR to the enclaves and the supply of material

 5     resources to the Muslim population, making them dependent on our

 6     goodwill, while at the same time avoiding condemnation by the

 7     international community and international public opinion."

 8             Now, when you came back on the 17th, Srebrenica was gone, pretty

 9     much, as an enclave.  Zepa was not receiving regular convoys; it was in a

10     particular situation.  So when you got back on the 17th, did you hear

11     that this was a policy for any of the remaining enclaves, this

12     restrictive -- unobtrusively restrictive issuing of permits and the rest,

13     how it states out as to do it as to limit the support, et cetera?

14        A.   Your Honours, I didn't hear anybody talk about that in my

15     presence.  I did not read the entire document.  I've not had the same

16     opportunity as I have now.  I just cast a perfunctory glance at it again.

17     So I was not informed about this position.

18        Q.   What do you think of this?  Is this professional -- is this a

19     professional idea?  Is it a professional direction?  Is it proper?

20        A.   I can share with you my personal opinion.

21             When there are conflicts, a lot of things happen.  The entire

22     states are blockaded for years, for 10 years.  People suffer, unable to

23     get supplies and to live normally.  So from the humanitarian point of

24     view, it's not proper.

25        Q.   All right.  And I think we should go to the last page in both.

Page 12015

 1     I think it's page 15 --

 2        A.   I apologise.  I am saying this in respect of civilians.  However,

 3     when it comes to the enemy side, to the opposing side, then I think that

 4     this is not illegal.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We need to go back, page 21 in the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   General, I would agree with you.  Siege warfare against -- is

 7     that what you're referring to?  Siege warfare against an armed force,

 8     that it's completely legitimate to restrict food, supplies, armaments to

 9     the actual force?  Is that what you're referring to?

10        A.   Yes, that's what I meant.  However, here we have a situation

11     where an area is treated as a demilitarised zone, although there are

12     forces of a division there and every day they inflict losses on the army,

13     they plunder.  Even before the month of June, before I came, nine

14     sabotage terrorist groups were sent to the immediate vicinity of the

15     Main Staff, and they inflicted losses on the Signals Regiment and the

16     regiment that was providing security for the Main Staff.  And allegedly

17     that was done from the allegedly protected -- or, rather, allegedly

18     demilitarised zone.

19        Q.   And I know of those -- of some of those incidents, and I agree

20     with you, General.  And my question is:  Does that conduct by the Muslim

21     forces, in your training, justify the targeting of the civilians or the

22     restriction of their humanitarian aid?  Because the army is doing

23     something like that that was wrong, under the UN rules, can the Serb Army

24     take that out on the civilians?

25        A.   Not towards the civilians.  But in Republika Srpska, we were

Page 12016

 1     under an embargo, and the entire population in the territory of

 2     Republika Srpska suffered due to the blockade that was imposed.  I'm not

 3     justifying what I read here with what had happened to us, but things

 4     happen.  The treatment is not even-handed towards everybody.

 5        Q.   Thank you, General.  I'm done with that.  And given that last --

 6     well, that last paragraph -- sorry, that came under the Morale and Legal

 7     Section.  That would be General Gvero's section; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes, the Sector for Morale, Religious, and Legal Affairs.

 9        Q.   And before we leave, as promised, we do now see the last page and

10     the name of the supreme commander, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, drafted by

11     Colonel Radivoje Miletic, who you've talked about, typed by

12     Sergeant Spasoja Zeljkovic.  Did Zeljkovic work in Operations?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Do you remember where Zeljkovic worked?

15        A.   I think that he was in the Logistics Sector.  He was employed on

16     the computer data entry details.  I think that this was done by computer.

17        Q.   All right.  And while we're on a simple point, you mentioned one

18     of the officers in the Main Staff as a Nikola Trkulja.  Does

19     "Nedjeljko Trkulja" ring a bell?

20        A.   I misspoke when I said that name.  I was wrong.  His name is

21     Nedeljko.

22        Q.   And what was his position, again?

23        A.   Colonel Trkulja was in the Organ for Branches, and he was the

24     chief of the Armoured Mechanised Units Branch.

25        Q.   All right, thank you.  And you've spoken briefly now about the

Page 12017

 1     Main Staff, about the Operations Branch and the Chief of Staff.  Can you

 2     tell us, again briefly, what are the basic jobs of the assistant

 3     commander?  I don't want to hear about intel and security and logistics.

 4     But, fundamentally, they're not commanders, they're assistant commanders.

 5     What is their basic responsibility in this Main Staff, in very simple

 6     terms?

 7        A.   Who do you have in mind, specifically?

 8        Q.   No one in particular, but just generally.  What does this

 9     commander share, what does his -- we know that they are at the head of

10     specific branches, but what is their basic job in relation to the

11     commander who they are assisting?

12        A.   They represent the inner command, the inner circle of the

13     command.  In the absence of the commander himself, one of them, appointed

14     by the commander, stands in for him or deputizes for him while he's

15     absent, in terms of co-ordination and supervising the work of the

16     Main Staff Command and the units as well.

17        Q.   And do they ever offer proposals or advice to the commander on

18     their particular area of expertise?

19        A.   If the commander requests advice or opinion from a sector, that

20     sector will provide their estimate or a position with regard to a

21     problem.  And there is discussion about important issues.  He will

22     probably want to hear their opinion, and he will want to hear their

23     proposals as well.

24        Q.   Now, if General Mladic hears the proposal of, well, let's say of

25     General Gvero and issues an order pursuant to that proposal, does

Page 12018

 1     General Gvero have responsibility regarding the overseeing or monitoring

 2     of that order?

 3        A.   He can receive reports about things and be up to date with regard

 4     to the implementation.

 5        Q.   What are his responsibilities regarding the implementation, and

 6     the commander?

 7        A.   The very fact that the proposal was received from a certain

 8     officer doesn't necessarily mean that implementation follows.  The

 9     commander may assign somebody else to oversee the implementation of that

10     task.  It depends on the nature of the task.

11        Q.   All right.  You talked briefly about the -- I believe it was the

12     job of civil --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

14             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 12, lines 4

15     through 7, I believe that the witness's words were not very faithfully

16     recorded.  I believe that the witness spoke not only about the nature of

17     the task but also about the size of the task, and there are also some

18     other inconsistencies.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, we can't check that.  We have to rely

20     on the interpretation and the record.  We can follow in English but not

21     in B/C/S.  It is always helpful not to speak too fast, what you did just

22     now.  We have to -- that may be checked later, in comparison with the

23     tape in B/C/S.

24             Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm happy to check that -- the tape on that,

Page 12019

 1     Mr. President, so we'll try to add that, and we'll work with Mr. Gajic on

 2     that.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At this point in time I would put one question to

 4     the witness.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Please.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is the reason why these officers are called

 7     assistant commanders?  What is the meaning of the word "assistant"?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a group of officers who are

 9     charged with some tasks in their sectors, but they are immediately

10     subordinate to the commander and they make up the inner circle of the

11     command.  If a problem arises, and let's take that there are three

12     assistants, no matter where exactly the problem lies, the commander will

13     ask everyone to hear their opinion with regard to the solution to the

14     problem.  If the original proposal was mine, I'm not necessarily the one

15     to monitor the implementation of the task because the commander can adopt

16     somebody else's proposal and not necessarily the proposal of the one

17     who's in charge of the issues with -- the matters to which the task

18     pertains.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understood you in the following way:  Is the

20     group of assistant commanders a kind of a collegium or a team?  Is that a

21     correct understanding of your answer?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And one of these assistant commanders is the

24     deputy of the commander; is that correct?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the Chief of Staff.

Page 12020

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this was, in this case, General Milovanovic;

 2     correct?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could it happen that one of the other assistant

 5     commanders stand in for the commander?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How could that happen?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the Chief of Staff is

 9     temporarily absent and the commander has to go away too, then he will

10     select one of the assistants present to stand in for him and the

11     commander while he's away.  And during that time, that person will have

12     the same powers as the commander.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means the commander would appoint one of his

14     assistants to stand in for him?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Can you give us just a brief idea of the authority of an

20     assistant commander?  For example, would he normally be able to issue

21     orders to anyone he wants?

22        A.   No, he doesn't have those rights.  He can only issue orders in

23     the spirit of the basic decisions adopted by the commander.

24        Q.   Can he issue orders to his subordinates, like you've talked to us

25     before about General Miletic had a few subordinates?

Page 12021

 1        A.   He can.  Miletic can issue orders from his remit, that is, to me

 2     and Colonel Djeric.  That's the regular daily work.  And the assistant

 3     commander, if authorised to co-ordinate in the Command of the Main Staff,

 4     then he could also co-ordinate some tasks between the sectors and

 5     administrations.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And now when an assistant commander gets appointed by

 7     Mladic as the person in charge, because Mladic is gone and Milovanovic is

 8     gone, now what powers of order does that person have, the one who is now

 9     in charge in the absence of Mladic and Milovanovic?  Can he now issue

10     orders, basically, in a different way than you've described?

11        A.   Well, yes, the relations are there.  But I must return to the

12     first thing.  Orders can be -- can only be -- can only go as far as the

13     framework laid down by the commander while he was there.  But the periods

14     of time when you stand in for the commander and act on his behalf are

15     short.

16        Q.   All right.  And I think we may get some examples that may help us

17     with that.

18             Let me now go to -- you've talked briefly about Colonel Djeric's

19     position, and I think we've referred to it as the Department of

20     Civil Affairs, and you've described that briefly.  Can you tell us just a

21     little bit about the process where UNPROFOR or humanitarian organisations

22     would request convoy clearance?  Who would they request those clearances

23     from?  Who would handle them?

24        A.   I must first correct you.  You mentioned Colonel Djeric.  You

25     probably meant Colonel Milos Djurdjic, who was chief of the Department

Page 12022

 1     for Liaison with International Military Representatives.

 2        Q.   Yes, precisely.  I apologise.  Colonel Djurdjic.

 3        A.   All requests were received by fax in the department headed by

 4     Djurdjic.  Upon receiving such requests, Colonel Djurdjic processed them,

 5     marked them, and so on, and turned them into proposals to the commander.

 6     And he took them to the commander for approval.  It was up to the

 7     commander to approve these requests or not to approve them.

 8        Q.   And once a request was approved or not approved, did the

 9     Operations Branch get involved?

10        A.   Colonel Djurdjevic [as interpreted] would draft a notification to

11     the units through whose zone the convoys would travel and who manned the

12     check-points along that route.  He would integrate all these requests

13     into one document, and this document, when it was typed, he would submit

14     to General Miletic for signature; if he was absent, then to his

15     Chief of Staff.  Such authorisations were most frequently signed either

16     by the Chief of Staff or the by the chief of the Operations and Training

17     Administration.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I clarify the transcript.

19             Page 16, line 7.  At the beginning of your last answer, you are

20     recorded to having referred to Colonel Djurdjevic.  Is that correct?

21     Or ...

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And not Colonel Djurdjic?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milos Djurdjic.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And not Colonel Djurdjevic?

Page 12023

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise if I said "Djurdjevic,"

 2     but I meant the chief of the Department for Liaison with International

 3     Military Representatives, and he was Colonel Milos Djurdjic.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That clarifies the

 5     situation.  These names are quite similar and everybody is in a position

 6     to make a mistake.  I don't know if you misspoke or the interpreter

 7     misspoke.

 8             Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

10        Q.   Let's go to an example of some convoy materials.  Let's go to

11     65 ter 6022, which is a document you'll recall seeing in the last trial.

12             And as we just take a look at this to get oriented, we'll see in

13     the English that this is dated in June.  It says, 1995, and it's from

14     Major General Nicolai of the BH Headquarters.  And it's requesting a

15     approval for a convoy of -- for medical evacuation.  And if we look over

16     and see the original document, we can see some handwriting on it.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 5062 now.  But leave the

18     English up.  Excuse me, 5260.  And can we blow the B/C/S version up.  We

19     don't need the English version because it's on the right.

20             No, maybe we can't do that.  Well, it's all right, we can do it

21     this way.  We'll use the old exhibit.

22        Q.   The blue writing on the top, did you do that?

23        A.   The date and the signature, "14 November 2008,

24     Ljubomir Obradovic," yes.

25        Q.   And that's when you testified and made these other markings on

Page 12024

 1     the document; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  We see two red circles.  One is marked with the number 1

 4     on the far right.  What is -- what have you circled there in number 1?

 5     What is that?

 6        A.   On the right, the initials of General Tolimir.  And there's a

 7     slash.  And outside the red circle there's a struck-out "A/A."

 8        Q.   Yes, we see that.  What does that "A/A" mean?

 9        A.   To archive, to be archived.

10        Q.   All right.  And then how about the next circle with the red

11     number 2 in it; what is that encircling?  What do you identify, if

12     anything, in there?

13        A.   I circled the initials of General Mladic.

14        Q.   Now, it's not exactly clear to us because we see some writing in

15     there.  Can you write on this document again and just put an arrow to

16     where the actual initial of General Mladic is?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, would it be possible to have the

18     original document, without these markings by the witness in the prior

19     trial?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We can go back to it.  It was the first one I put

21     on the screen.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was 65 ter 6022; is that correct?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps we can see it more clear without the

25     markings.

Page 12025

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right, and I'll have him -- I'll ask him to

 2     do that, then.

 3             If we could go back to 6022.  That's fine.  And perhaps we can

 4     blow that up just a little bit in the area that we're talking about.

 5     Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now, can you take the pen, and if you could, circle what you've

 7     concluded were the initials of General Tolimir.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And you've circled including a very long vertical line next to

10     the squiggles.  Is that long vertical line part of the initials, in your

11     knowledge, or was that something else?

12        A.   I think it's just a slash, not part of the initial.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's erase that, then.

14        Q.   And just put a circle around what you -- the precise initials.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And can you mark that circle with an A.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Okay.  Can you now circle, as precisely as you can, what you are

19     concluding are General Mladic's initials.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   And can you mark that with a B.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Now, we see immediately above General Mladic's initials a word

24     that is circled.  Can you tell us what that word is that's circled in

25     black?

Page 12026

 1        A.   It's the affirmative word "da" in Serbian, which means "yes."

 2        Q.   Okay.  Can you circle the whole circle of the "da" and put C by

 3     that, please.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And -- thank you.  Can you give us any idea why these initials

 6     are on here?  First of all, let's start with General Mladic's.  What's

 7     that mean?

 8        A.   It means that the commander reviewed this document when

 9     Colonel Milos Djurdjic brought it to him, that he approved it, wrote

10     "Yes" on it, and confirmed or certified that with his initials.

11        Q.   All right.  And then why would General Tolimir be initialling

12     this document as well, as you've identified?

13        A.   I don't know why there are the initials of General Tolimir here

14     and whether they were placed there before or after the commander's

15     initials.

16        Q.   Do you recall, in your prior testimony, talking about

17     General Tolimir's involvement in this, or the Security Branch's?

18        A.   This is something that concerns the Security and Intelligence

19     Sector because of our bad experience that we had with some convoys that

20     transported undeclared goods and in some cases even ammunition and

21     weapons.

22        Q.   So given the need to carefully monitor these convoys from

23     contraband, was the Security Branch involved in this monitoring and this

24     work, as we see General Tolimir is?

25        A.   I don't know to what extent, but here, in this procedure of

Page 12027

 1     approving, I don't know why these initials are here.  I can only make an

 2     assumption, namely that Djurdjic first took it to General Tolimir and

 3     suggested that it be archived, and maybe subsequently the commander

 4     approved it.  And only then was this A/A mark placed here.  But then

 5     these are my speculations.  I can't know for certain.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering this?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2144, Your Honours.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that is, of course, the marked versions as

12     well as the others.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No.  Are you tendering also the original?  We now

14     received - this is my understanding - the document with the markings as

15     an exhibit.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, and the, of course, the other

17     one.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think that's just a good idea, to have both.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The original without the markings by the witness,

21     and this is 65 ter 6022.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, yes, absolutely.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be received as an exhibit.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2145, Your Honours.

Page 12028

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what about 65 ter 5260, which was the

 2     document with the previous markings?

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think, for consistency, that's a good idea.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as well.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2146, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 8             And can we go to 65 ter 5137.

 9             All right.  I'm sorry, we need to go to 5211.  No, sorry.  We'll

10     be there in a minute.  I apologise.

11             Can we go to the next page.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is still 65 ter 5137, if I'm not mistaken.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct.  And this is the correct

14     document.  They just were managed in a -- all right, and ... all right.

15             So let's go back to the first page.  I see where we're at now.

16     And I'm sorry.

17        Q.   All right.  We can see here that this is a document from Miletic

18     to the UNPROFOR, and it's noting that this convoy request is not

19     approved.  And we see it's in the name of Colonel Miletic.  Can you read

20     the actual signature in the stamped version?  And I've got the original

21     if you can't make that out.

22        A.   The surname is Pandzic.

23        Q.   All right.  And that's -- you've mentioned Pandzic before.  Where

24     did he work?

25        A.   He was Colonel Radoslav Pandzic at the time in the airforce and

Page 12029

 1     anti-aircraft defence administration.

 2        Q.   And since we see Miletic's name on this, was this something -- I

 3     mean, we know you weren't there at this point - we can see it's

 4     6 March - but would this be something that he was involved in at times,

 5     notifying UNPROFOR of convoy requests, declinations or approvals?

 6        A.   This is information written based on a decision by the commander.

 7        Q.   And we understand that.  I'm just asking -- we see Miletic's name

 8     on the bottom of it.  Would he normally be involved in notifying

 9     UNPROFOR?

10        A.   Well, it wasn't something that was normally done.  It was

11     normally done by the Chief of Staff.  But since he was absent, it was

12     signed by Miletic.  And Colonel Djurdjic, the person who actually drafted

13     it, put down this signature block, and then it was Pandzic who signed it

14     because he did not have the right to sign these documents.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And let's go to --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, please wait a moment.  And we forgot

17     something else.  We have to come back to another document.  Judge Mindua

18     wanted to put a question to that after you had finished with this

19     document.

20             But I didn't understand this procedure of signature.  We have in

21     the English translation: "... for standing in for the Chief of Staff."

22     In my understanding, the Chief of Staff was General Milovanovic.

23     Standing in for him was his deputy, General Miletic, at that time perhaps

24     Colonel Miletic.  How was it possible that a third person could sign this

25     document instead of Miletic?  Or did I miss something?

Page 12030

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you didn't miss

 2     anything.  It says: "Standing in for the Chief of Staff,

 3     Colonel Miletic."  However, he was probably absent.  So then for the

 4     person standing in, it was Colonel Pandzic who signed it.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   Is there -- do you see the word "za" there somewhere, so that

 8     it's clear that Pandzic is not trying to fake Miletic's signature, that

 9     he's saying "za" and then puts his own name?  Can you see a "za" there?

10     In -- on the stamp, do you see "za" anywhere?  Just to help us sort out

11     the process.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Can you circle again the "za" so that that's clear.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the Court Usher.  Wait a

15     moment, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Oh, you are already a professional in court

18     procedure.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  We see the red circle, so I would

20     offer this into evidence before I forget.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The marked document should be a document in our

22     case.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2147, Your Honours.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And can we go to another page in the document.

25     It should be, in e-court, page 2.  And for the English, we need to go to

Page 12031

 1     0679-3609.  And I have the original of this.  As we can see, the black

 2     markings are very hard to make out on the screen.  If I could ask the

 3     witness to take a look at the original.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please.  And if it's possible to enlarge

 5     that part in the meantime, it would be helpful.

 6             I suppose, Mr. McCloskey, you will put questions in relation to

 7     the handwritten markings.  Is that correct?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  I'm just waiting for the English

 9     translation to come up.

10        Q.   But are you able to make out the original, General, what it says

11     in the handwritten part?

12        A.   It says "Toso," and that is underlined.

13             "What do you think about the request?"

14             And then it says:

15             "Would it be possible to impose a condition, if we decide that in

16     the end?  Give your proposal."

17             And then the initial of the commander.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Can we blow up that handwritten section.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I was told we have a problem.  The

20     last marking, the word "za" was lost.  It was not saved.  And you may

21     proceed.  But come back to that to ask the witness to encircle this word

22     again so that can be saved.

23             I think we have not the right English version on the screen in

24     relation to this document.  Is that correct?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That is correct.  It should be on its way.

Page 12032

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was the ERN number 0679-3609, if that is

 2     correct.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But this can't be found.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, Your Honour, I recall it, and I think the

 6     general's -- what he read is my recollection of what the translator saw.

 7     So I think from the transcript for now I know it's in there.  I know it's

 8     not ideal, but if you remember what he said, that's pretty much what the

 9     translator saw as well.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  A document with the ERN number you have given is

11     not in e-court, I was told.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It may be checked later.  But if you're only

14     dealing with this -- oh, here it is.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, there's tricky parts of e-court.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is a different ERN number, I was told, but now

18     we have it on the screen.  This is helpful.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I thank everyone for their patience.

20        Q.   And, General, could you just again circle what you recognise as

21     General Mladic's initials?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, should we put only the B/C/S

23     version on the screen and enlarge that part?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  We don't need the English for the

25     encircling, so that's --

Page 12033

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh, we didn't press the right button, I guess.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Although you are an expert.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There's another button that needs to get pressed,

 5     sir, so ...

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- the Court Usher will assist you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perfect.  Thank you very much.  This should be

 9     saved.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The marked document, I hope it is saved.  It will

12     be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2148, Your Honours.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, as well, the underlying document.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as well.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2149, Your Honours.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we better go back to "za" --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY: -- which is the same document, page 1.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need only the B/C/S version.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we get only B/C/S.  Blow it up, please, a

22     little bit.  Thank you.

23        Q.   General, could you circle that "za" again.  We've lost the -- ah,

24     you've got the button figured out.  Thanks.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 12034

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer this into evidence.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was already received and has a P number, but

 3     I hope it will be possible to save it.  I was told we have, today, many

 4     problems with the saving of markings, which is very unfortunate.  We

 5     should try to figure out what might be the reason during the break.

 6             Have you done everything with this document?  We'll come back to

 7     that later to redo the marking.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I don't -- I just wanted to ask a few basic

 9     questions, so we should keep it there.

10        Q.   But, General, we again, here -- who wrote the note directed to

11     General Tolimir under the word "Toso"?

12        A.   The commander of the Main Staff, General Mladic.

13        Q.   So here again we see General Tolimir involved in a -- this is a

14     medical evacuation related to Srebrenica.  Would this have security

15     implications as well?

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, we should be more precise.

18     How could we conclude on the basis of this that I was appraised of the

19     medical evacuation?  Maybe the witness should be asked whether this

20     document bears any sign of my activity, any information of what I was

21     doing at the time, or maybe this is merely an assumption on the part of

22     Mr. McCloskey.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, if you can deal with this, it

24     would be helpful.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 12035

 1        Q.   General, let me ask you this:  We just saw a similar document

 2     with General Tolimir's initials on it and next to General Mladic's

 3     initials, and now we see a document where General Mladic is asking

 4     General Tolimir for a proposal.  When General Mladic takes a serious

 5     document like this and asked one of his assistant commanders for a

 6     proposal, does that get shown to the assistant commander?

 7        A.   Well, it would be necessary to see the document for which an

 8     opinion or proposal is sought.

 9        Q.   Let's go to the next page.  It's the document you just looked at.

10     It's the one that you have in front of you.  You just -- you see it?

11             I'm asking about this proposal, that it says:

12             "Toso, give me your proposal about this."

13             And it's on this medical evacuation.  Would that be seen by

14     General Mladic -- excuse me, by General Tolimir?

15        A.   Well, in a way, he should tell him why he is requesting his

16     proposal.  Now, whether he told him about the contents of the document or

17     whether he forwarded the document to him, that I don't know.

18        Q.   My question is:  When General Mladic writes a note to

19     General Tolimir or any other of his assistant commanders on an important

20     document from UNPROFOR, should that note -- that handwritten original

21     note that you have in front of you, should that be passed on to

22     General Tolimir, or could it just get mislaid, or put someplace, or lost?

23        A.   I cannot claim that this document actually reached

24     General Tolimir.  However, based on this, he was supposed to appraise

25     himself of the contents of the document and then put forward the

Page 12036

 1     proposal.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'll try one more time, General.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I --

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Please.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- put a question.

 6             General Mladic wrote this note, as you told us.  What was his

 7     expectation what will happen with this document after having made this

 8     note?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was supposed to reach

10     General Tolimir so that he can give the proposal in line with the

11     question asked of him, because the administrative practice that we

12     followed gives the possibility to an officer to make a short note on the

13     margin of the document in which he either asks for a proposal or

14     instructs the subordinates to carry out a certain tasks.  Or to say, I

15     approve this, or, I do not approve this.  So it is possible to give a

16     short instruction.  And I think that this is exactly what we are talking

17     about.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the person who receives this document with

19     the handwritten note of Mladic was supposed to forward it to the relevant

20     person, in this case to General Tolimir; is that correct?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This memo was taken to the

22     commander by Colonel Djurdjic.  Whether the commander wrote it at that

23     time or later on, I don't know.  But when it was returned, this document

24     was supposed to come to General Tolimir so that he could give a proposal.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 12037

 1             Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   Were you aware at any time where General Tolimir ignored a

 4     request from General Mladic?

 5        A.   I don't know whether he knew about it or did not know about it.

 6     I'm not aware of that.  Because this line goes from the commander,

 7     through Colonel Djurdjic, towards the chief of sector, so I cannot know

 8     that.

 9        Q.   Now, General, that wasn't my question.  My question was more

10     general, and that is:  Were you ever familiar with a time -- was there

11     ever a breakdown that you ever saw between General Mladic and

12     General Tolimir where General Tolimir would ignore a specific proposal,

13     any proposal, or any request for a proposal from General Mladic?

14        A.   I was never present, I never had the possibility to see it.

15        Q.   Had you ever heard of any of the assistant commanders or the

16     Chief of Staff ever ignoring General Mladic when he requests them to give

17     him a proposal?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Have you ever heard of any time where any of the assistant

20     commanders or the Chief of Staff ever did not follow out an order that

21     Mladic gave them?

22        A.   I cannot know that.  I don't have information about it.

23        Q.   So have you ever heard about it?

24        A.   No.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, my -- I can see that my time is

Page 12038

 1     almost out, and I'm -- this has been very difficult to judge, the time

 2     that this has taken, and I apologise for that.  And I really don't want

 3     this witness to have to stay, but if I could -- if we could break now, I

 4     will try to go through my remaining materials, but I have significant

 5     materials.  And I will try to get a better estimate, but this has just

 6     been - I apologise - very difficult.  Perhaps I'm getting spoiled by

 7     92 ter, but I've not given a good estimate.  I don't think it should take

 8     more than one more session, but I can see one more session.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the technical difficulties with the

10     markings and the tendering of documents can't count against you and,

11     therefore, I think we should proceed in the following way -- just a

12     moment.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  During the break we should try to resolve the

15     technical problems.  After the break you should try to get the markings

16     done again with the numbers we have already received.

17             But before we break - we have several minutes left - I would like

18     to go back to the Directive 7.  That was P1214.  The last page we saw - I

19     don't know which one it was - Judge Mindua wants to put a question before

20     the break.  Let's see if we can get it back on the screen.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Directive 7 is 1214.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need the English translation of the page.

23     Yes, there it is.

24             Judge Mindua.

25             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.

Page 12039

 1             So we have Directive 7 in English and we see the page on the

 2     screen.

 3             Witness, I would just like to go back briefly to what was said

 4     earlier at page 10 of the transcript, starting at line 11, regarding the

 5     directive.  At the bottom of the page, you have the words "Staff Sergeant

 6     Spasoja Zeljkovic."  You said that this person worked at the

 7     Logistics Sector and that he worked at the Computer Data Department.  So

 8     I would like to know:  That department, or this sector, was it placed

 9     under the command of the supreme commander directly, or was it placed

10     under the command of the commander of the Main Staff, or was it placed

11     under the Administration of Operations and Education, led by

12     General Radivoje Miletic?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Sergeant Zeljkovic was

14     within the Logistics Sector.  That sector is not directly subordinated to

15     the supreme commander.  It is only subordinated through the commander of

16     the Main Staff.

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Thank you

18     for this information.

19             Now, I'd like to ask you this, because yesterday you explained to

20     us that the drafting of the directive, the directive is the instrument of

21     the command -- supreme commander, and it is the instrument of -- that

22     they use.  You told us the directive could be elaborated in two ways;

23     there was a long method and a short method.  The long method included the

24     inputs stemming from all sectors and organs, and afterwards the document

25     was signed by either the supreme commander or the staff commander,

Page 12040

 1     Main Staff commander.  So my question is the following:  After the inputs

 2     coming from lower organs to the supreme commander, after they have been

 3     drafted, if the commander -- the supreme commander wanted to add

 4     something or if he wanted to modify something, who is the person who was

 5     in charge of typing the directive before the supreme commander signs it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, who was in charge of

 7     entering the amendments that may have come from the supreme commander, I

 8     don't know whether there was a special person to enter those amendments

 9     and who was it who was doing that job in his cabinet.  In this case,

10     I think that it says that it was finalised by

11     Staff Sergeant Spasoja Zeljkovic.  And if you ask me about possible

12     interventions, how they arrived, how they were typed, whether it was

13     entered by hand and then later on sent for retyping and then resent for a

14     signature, I wouldn't know the particulars of that process.  I don't know

15     what was the practice.  These are the possibilities that I have outlined:

16     The supreme commander would receive a typed document, he would look at

17     it, enter comments in the margin about what needed to be amended or

18     changed, and then he would return it for retyping.  And that retyped

19     version would then also include his amendments.

20             In this case, it seems that the final version was typed by this

21     Staff Sergeant Zeljkovic.

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

23             In fact, this document was drafted by Colonel Radivoje Miletic.

24     This is clear.  Then the document was typed by the sergeant whose name we

25     see here.  We don't really know if he was directly attached to the

Page 12041

 1     supreme commander or to Colonel Miletic.  That's something we don't know

 2     from this document.  But I don't really understand very clearly.  Why do

 3     you have to put the name of the person who typed the document if, in the

 4     end, we don't know if any modifications were brought in and if he took --

 5     if he took them into account when he typed the final document?

 6             Witness, I don't know if you understood my question.  I am just

 7     trying to understand who is the person who, in the end, typed the final

 8     version of the document.  This is why usually the initials of the person

 9     are put there.  But according to your explanation it's very difficult to

10     see who was the person who typed this final version; is that right?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me clear one thing

12     first.

13             Staff Sergeant Zeljkovic, in an organisational way, looking at

14     the way the establishment was at the time, he belongs to the

15     Logistics Support Sector.  He is not in the sphere of the supreme

16     commander.  He is, in some way, indirectly subordinated to him through

17     the commander of the Main Staff and the commander of the

18     Logistics Sector.  Why it was he who was engaged to enter those things,

19     that I don't know.  And what exactly happened, it's impossible for us to

20     figure out.  It's possible that, for instance, when he typed the first

21     version, and then Colonel Miletic submitted it to the commander for

22     signature, maybe if he had some amendments he could have written those

23     amendments in pencil by hand on the paper and then returned the text to

24     be retyped.  And then after that intervention he could have signed the

25     finalised text in the end, once again.  But I don't know what actually

Page 12042

 1     took place.

 2             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I understand it's very

 3     difficult for you to tell us.  But if this was the brief procedure or, in

 4     other words, a directive coming directly from the supreme commander

 5     himself, if no inputs came from subordinate services, I imagine that it

 6     would be the typist of the supreme commander who would put his initials.

 7     Is that right?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, not.  This man

 9     begins [as interpreted] to the Logistics Support Sector.  I don't know if

10     you understand me.  I don't exclude this possibility, but I'm simply

11     reading the document as it is written.

12             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this man "belongs" to the Logistics Support

14     Sector; correct?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             We will try to re-mark the two documents which are already in

18     evidence as P2145 and 2147.  If there was a third one, you should figure

19     that out during the break.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And also 2148.

22             We must have our first break now, and we will resume 4.25.  And I

23     would like to invite Mr. McCloskey to give us an estimation of the length

24     of his examination-in-chief after the break.  Thank you very much.

25                           --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

Page 12043

 1                           --- On resuming at 4.27 p.m.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I was told that you have used, up

 3     to now, four hours and thirteen minutes.  There are three-quarters of an

 4     hour left.  If my recollection is serving me well, you have indicated

 5     that you will use five hours.  Yes.

 6             Is it possible to finish in this time or do you need some more

 7     time?  I'm only concerned about the possibility for this witness to stay

 8     over the weekend, if that is necessary, because if you are getting more

 9     time, we should give the accused also additional time for his

10     cross-examination, and there will be some re-examination probably, so

11     that it is unlikely we can conclude the evidence of this witness this

12     week.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I understand that, and I hope

14     I can get done this one section.  In fact, we would have no objection to

15     the witness -- in fact, I would prefer if the witness was allowed to go

16     home on Friday and that we bring him back some time after his very

17     important family engagement when he is available.  As I mentioned to you,

18     it's a very important engagement that he go to.  It's the celebration of

19     the anniversary of the death of his mother, I believe.  And we are always

20     available for him coming back, but I will try to finish up in this

21     session.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  And, of course, we all have

23     to bear that in mind.

24             Mr. Gajic.

25             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has a

Page 12044

 1     proposal.

 2             If the witness's testimony has to be finished this week, we

 3     believe that he has either to be at home on Saturday or maybe he has to

 4     travel on Saturday.  We are prepared to work on Friday, even to have an

 5     extended sitting on Friday if need may be.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Or perhaps tomorrow.  We should consider that

 7     possibility as well.

 8             What is your position, Mr. McCloskey?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  From here to get to Visegrad is a long trip.

10     I think he needs to travel on Friday just to make sure.  So -- but, of

11     course, we should hear, of course, from the general on these points too.

12     He's the person that should be able to offer the best ideas.  But I hope

13     to finish up in the next hour and a half.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, I would like to ask you, sir.  When

15     does your travel back to your home take place, on which day?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is 40 days after

17     the death of my mother, and we mark that on Saturday at 10.00 in the

18     morning in Visegrad.  My family is already travelling today to be in

19     Visegrad on that day.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think there were already arrangements made for

21     your travel back.  When will that happen?  What is the schedule of this

22     flight?  Can you tell us?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Witnesses and Victims Unit told

24     me that on the 1st April there is a direct flight to Belgrade at 11.00 in

25     the morning.

Page 12045

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And that is Friday of this week.  In that case,

 2     we can't sit on Friday.  This is not possible.  We should consider the

 3     possibility of an extended sitting tomorrow, if everybody would be in

 4     agreement of that.  But it's premature to discuss that at this stage.

 5             Mr. McCloskey, I learned that the loss of the markings had

 6     something to do with the technical equipment the witness has used.  We

 7     have to redo it.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have two exhibits that I'm told need to be

 9     redone.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Excuse me.  Please continue.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  I've been informed that there are two

13     exhibits that need to be redone.  The first one is 65 ter 5137, which was

14     given the number P2147.  And it should be the first page.  And I believe

15     it's the now famous "za" that we've done twice before.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need only the B/C/S version enlarged on the

17     screen, and the Court Usher should assist the witness.

18             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document with the marking should now be

20     saved and is already in evidence as ... and I would like to ask the

21     Court Officer.  I think it's P2147.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's correct.  Thank you.

24             Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm told the next one is the same 5137 but the

Page 12046

 1     second page.  And if we could blow that up.

 2             This one, I think we'll recall that the general had the original

 3     in his hands.  And if he could again - thank you, General - circle

 4     General Mladic's initials.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Be patient, please.  One moment.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These markings -- this marking on this document

 8     will be the Exhibit P2145, if I'm not mistaken.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, I have to correct myself.  It's 2148.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to P1214.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to clarify if the markings on the

13     document 2144 are saved.  These were the initials of Mr. Tolimir and

14     General Mladic.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be checked by the Registrar.

17             I was told they are saved.  It's not necessary to repeat that

18     again.

19             Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, we need to go to the last page in the

21     B/C/S.  This with a slight reversal, though -- yes, if we could go over

22     to the last page, page 24 in e-court.  Sorry, it's the next -- it's

23     page 24.

24             Okay.  We've got the Serbian correct.  And now we just need to go

25     to the English.  It's page 1 in English.

Page 12047

 1        Q.   Now, General, just to try to see if I can help with

 2     Judge Mindua's questions about this:  The directive itself was dated

 3     8th of March, 1995, but this cover letter, being sent to the

 4     1st Krajina Corps, is dated 17 March 1995.  If the system is working as

 5     it should, will the copy of the directive that's being sent along with

 6     this cover letter be the final copy, the final version, of Directive 7?

 7        A.   A directive sent to the corps commands is its final version, the

 8     final version of that directive.

 9        Q.   And we see the corps commands getting this directive.  The

10     assistant commanders at the Main Staff that took part in the drafting of

11     the directive - we've already seen that General Miletic had one - should

12     the other assistant commanders have also had a copy of the final version?

13        A.   I don't know whether it was forwarded to them.

14        Q.   Yeah, I don't -- you know, I know you weren't in their offices.

15     That's not what I mean.  But if the system is working as it should,

16     should the assistant commanders that took part in putting the material in

17     for this directive receive a final copy, as we know General Miletic did?

18        A.   I am not sure that his copy was forwarded to him.  Maybe he has

19     kept the draft that he participated in putting together, but he was not

20     supposed to get it; he was not supposed to be forwarded it, that

21     directive.  It should have been sent to the chiefs of sectors and

22     independent administrations rather than to him.

23        Q.   All right.  So leaving General Miletic out and what version he

24     may have had in the strong-box, did you say that the directive should

25     have been sent to the other assistant commanders or should not have been

Page 12048

 1     sent to the other assistant commanders?

 2        A.   Assistant commanders and chiefs of sectors should be copied with

 3     the directive because they should be aware of its contents.

 4        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

 5        A.   Now, as to whether those copies were sent to them or not ...

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Of course.

 7             All right.  Can we go to 65 ter 1815.

 8        Q.   And we can see, General, in looking at this, that there's a

 9     receipt -- I believe it's a receipt stamp from the 1st Zvornik Light

10     Infantry Brigade up in the right-hand corner.  It's dated 1 July 1995;

11     the document is, that is.  And it's listed as, "To the Commands of the

12     Sarajevo Romanija Corps and Drina Corps."  And I'm sure you'll agree with

13     me that the Zvornik Brigade was a member of the Drina Corps.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And this is a, as we see, a list of approved convoys.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we go to the next page in the B/C/S so

17     the general can see whose name is at the bottom.

18        Q.   Now, this is a teletype, so we don't see a signature.

19             Could we go to the -- we just need to move it over so we can see

20     the name of the person that wrote it in the B/C/S.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  A bit further, please.  That's fine.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   And so you -- we see this going out under the name of your boss.

24     You weren't there at the time.  And you'll remember you being asked about

25     this in the previous trial, and you perhaps have had a chance to review

Page 12049

 1     it.  We notice that it's in handwritten --

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the first page of the B/C/S and in

 3     the English.

 4        Q.   And we can see that it's -- under the date stamp is handwritten

 5     "Security organ."  Now, if that was written in by the Zvornik Brigade,

 6     which I believe it was, can you offer us your views on what, if anything,

 7     about this document would have caused it to be of concern or sent to the

 8     security organ of the Zvornik Brigade?

 9        A.   I don't know what was it that governed the commander of the

10     Zvornik Brigade to send a copy to the security organ.  Maybe this is a

11     copy of the original document.  But there's nothing there.  It says here

12     "Approved."  It says:

13             "We inform that we have approved the movement of the following

14     UNPROFOR convoys:"

15             And there is a list of those convoys there.

16             In any case, the brigade commander believed that his security

17     organ has to be appraised of the contents.  Maybe he wanted him to follow

18     and monitor the passage of those convoys.  I don't know what governed

19     him, as I say, but this may be an explanation.

20        Q.   All right.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's look at -- it's page 3 of the English, and

22     it should be page 1 of the B/C/S, and it's after the -- it's within the

23     number 6.  In fact, it's probably the next page, because it's just after

24     the number 6.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's on the same page in English.

Page 12050

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   And it starts with -- and I hope I've got it for you now.  I know

 3     that's a bit small to look at.  And General Miletic said to the

 4     addressees:

 5             "Note:  The movement of the convoys under items 5 and 6 above,

 6     which has been approved conditionally, should be specially controlled by

 7     teams at check-points and liaison officers of the Drina Corps Command.

 8     Before they enter the territory of Republika Srpska on their return from

 9     Zagreb, check the cargo in the six lorries.  It has been agreed that the

10     six lorries will transport humanitarian aid for Zvornik and the same

11     number of lorries should bring humanitarian aid to Sarajevo, to the

12     Muslims.  If the lorries come to Zvornik without the said cargo, do not

13     let them go to Sarajevo or Srebrenica."

14             And he goes on to say:

15             "In other words, when the convoy arrives in Zvornik, check it,

16     establish what it is carrying, and inform the commander, after which

17     instructions regarding continuation of their journey will be given.

18             "Inform about this only the men who deal with such issues and use

19     the details for internal purposes only.  Do not reveal them to third

20     persons."

21             And if we look at 5 and 6, what they're talking about, I won't

22     go -- go read it all, but ...

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are referring to item 5 and 6?  That should

24     be on the previous page.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, I'm sorry.  We should -- everyone should be

Page 12051

 1     able to go look at 5 and 6 so we can see what this paragraph is referring

 2     to.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             We do see that 5 has to do with from Srebrenica through Bratunac,

 4     Zelinje, Drinjaca, Zvornik, Karakaj, Belgrade, and Zagreb, to rotate

 5     medical staff.  A minibus, then personal equipment, mail bags.

 6             Then the next one is from Srebrenica to Zagreb along the same

 7     route, personal equipment, luggage, jeeps, lorries, people, personal

 8     weapons, rations.

 9             And I'm not so interested in the actual specifics of this; I

10     think it speaks for itself.  But we here -- we see here that

11     General Miletic has made special care to actually repeat twice what he

12     wants to happen to this convoy.  Is that something that you were aware of

13     that sometimes General Miletic would engage in when he's communicating

14     with the people that are going to be receiving these convoys?

15        A.   Here, he informs and provides instructions based on a decision by

16     the commander.  When requests reached them, before they wrote this

17     document, they had to analyse those convoys, their routes and points of

18     entry into the territory of the Republika Srpska, and the passage through

19     the zone of responsibility of the VRS.  What governed them, what kind of

20     analysis they had, I don't know.  I don't know anything about these

21     specific instructions.

22        Q.   Yes, I don't want to ask you about those specific instructions,

23     just the process, so thank you for that.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to 65 ter -- and I should offer

25     that into evidence.

Page 12052

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  65 ter 1815 will be received.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2149 [sic], Your Honours.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we go to 65 ter 4049.

 4        Q.   And, General, I know this is dated the 14th of July - you're not

 5     quite back yet - from the Command of the 1st Podrinje Light

 6     Infantry Brigade, which we know is the Rogatica Brigade, to the

 7     Main Staff, personally to General Miletic, and titled "Protection of

 8     TVP," which is "Secret Military Information."  And it's General Tolimir

 9     asking about getting radio sets with the KZU 63, which you've spoken of

10     earlier, that gives crypto-protection to voice communications.

11             Would dealing with this kind of matter, General Tolimir, fit

12     within his job as assistant commander for intelligence and security?

13        A.   Yes, in terms of data protection.  That's one of the tasks of the

14     Security Service, and this is carried out by the communications bodies.

15        Q.   And is operational security -- security and secrecy of a military

16     operation, does that also fit in with General Tolimir's duties?  I mean

17     generally.

18        A.   Well, security organs deal with protection and security at all

19     levels, in all commands, at all levels, in all units.  That's how their

20     organs branch out to the battalion commands.  In battalions, there are

21     also officers who deal with security.  As for operative organs, they

22     design keys for communications devices.  Those are code books which are

23     temporary and valid for a certain period of time in a certain area where

24     radio communications are used.  The radio set 2/2K, this is used by

25     detachments, but they are also fitted with an encryption device for data

Page 12053

 1     protection or to protect messages, voice messages.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to another document after I

 3     offer this one into evidence.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2950 [sic], Your Honours.

 6             Just to correct the transcript, it's 2150 [sic].  Thank you.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So 65 ter 4860.

 8        Q.   You have talked to us about the assistant commanders,

 9     General Miletic's job, the job of someone that Mladic would appoint to

10     take over his duties, who can issue orders in various situations.  And

11     this is a document I'm sure you'll remember that we talked about before,

12     and I think you can see the whole document on your screen.  We can see

13     that it's from the Main Staff on 21 July, marked "Very Urgent," regarding

14     the dispatch of the Krajina -- of a Krajina unit from the Zvornik area to

15     the Trnovo front.

16             And if we could go to the next page in English, we'll see that it

17     went out under the name of General Miletic.

18             And we can clearly see, if we go back to the first page in

19     English, that this is an order, and it says :  "I order ..."  And this is

20     the 21st now.  You've been back for four days.

21             Do you recall this document?  We see it has that "03/4" number,

22     the strictly confidential number that you've told us was the

23     Security Branch number.  Do you have any memory aside from our last

24     discussion a few years ago over this document?  Do you remember if you

25     saw it at the time?

Page 12054

 1        A.   Your Honours, the document 03/4 is part of my operative

 2     department.  It is recorded in my book.

 3        Q.   And do you remember it at the time?

 4        A.   I can't remember this document from that time, but I can see that

 5     it was registered in the log-book of the Operative Administration.

 6        Q.   Well, we see here General Miletic ordering -- giving an order to

 7     the Command of the Drina Corps.  Would that be something that he would

 8     normally do as chief of the Administration of Operations and Training?

 9        A.   He doesn't have the right to issue orders to units, except if he

10     received oral approval over the phone or, for reasons of urgency,

11     approval from the commander.

12        Q.   Well, on the 21st of July was General Milovanovic back in the

13     Krajina or was he -- do you know -- do you recall where he was after

14     General Zivanovic's party?

15        A.   That day - I believe it was 20 July - before the farewell party

16     there was a briefing, short briefing, of the corps commanders to make

17     better use of the opportunity, because everybody had come to the party,

18     to briefly speak about the situation in their corps and their tensions.

19     I don't know precisely when General Milovanovic returned.

20        Q.   Do you recall that on this day, the 21st, is it possible that if

21     Milovanovic had gone back to the Krajina and General Mladic had left to

22     someplace like Belgrade, that General Miletic was put in charge?  Do you

23     have a recollection of General Miletic putting in charge?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   All right.  And there's a handwritten scrawl up at the top that

Page 12055

 1     says:

 2             "This probably won't get off the ground."

 3             And I believe it says:  "Commander IK --" well, and then

 4     "IKM Trnovo" is under different, as we can see, handwriting.  And then

 5     there's "OC," we can see in the original, "OC," and it's underlined

 6     twice.

 7             What's "OC" an abbreviation for?  Do you see that up in the far

 8     right-hand corner?  Maybe "UC."

 9        A.   No, "Operative Centre."  I don't know who the signatory is.  One

10     of the corps commanders, possibly, with regard to the use of this unit

11     from the 1st Krajina Corps.  I don't know who initialled this.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Can we go to 65 -- I would offer that

13     into evidence as well.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be received.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will be Exhibit P2152.

16             And I would like to correct myself.  65 ter 1815 is

17     Exhibit P2150, and 65 ter 4049 is Exhibit P2151.  Thank you.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we now go to P488.

19        Q.   All right.  And this -- we'll let them blow that up.  This is a

20     document we spoke about at the last trial.  This is from the command, the

21     Rogatica Brigade, on 21 July, and it says:  "To the Main Staff of the

22     VRS," personally to General Miletic.  And it's entitled "The Situation in

23     Zepa."

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we can go briefly to the last page in the

25     English, we can see it's from Major General Tolimir.  And now could we go

Page 12056

 1     back to the first page.

 2        Q.   Do you recall receiving this document when you were on duty on

 3     21 July 1995?

 4        A.   Yes.  It was addressed personally to General Miletic.

 5        Q.   And do you recall actually reading the document on 21 July?

 6        A.   I believe so.

 7        Q.   All right.  Paragraph 1 says:

 8             "The Muslims are organising a defence along Brezova Ravan and the

 9     Purtici axis.  They are using bulletproof vests and combat equipment from

10     UNPROFOR.  They are evacuating the population from Zepa and surrounding

11     villages towards Zlovrh, Stublic, and Sjemac."

12             Number 2:

13             "They are shooting at the UNPROFOR base in order to provoke

14     NATO's action during the Ministers' Conference that is being held with

15     the members of Contact Group (21 July).  They are expecting new

16     negotiations with UNPROFOR mediation in order to evade our combat

17     activities and conditions of their surrender."

18             Number 3:

19             "I suggest that UNPROFOR and international organisations

20     represents are not allowed to come into the area of combat activities for

21     mediation during negotiations."

22             Number 4:

23             "We would believe that we would be in more advantageous position

24     for direct negotiations after we inflict losses on the enemy's military

25     personnel.  We request means for crashing enemy's defence in the areas of

Page 12057

 1     Brezova Ravan and Purtici."

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now can we go to the next page in English, and go

 3     down a little bit more so we can see paragraph 5.

 4        Q.   Now, there is no numbered paragraph 5 in the original, so that

 5     "5" in the English is a mistranslation.  And this says:

 6             "The most propitious means of their destruction ..."

 7             And I'll refer to the -- paragraph 4 was the -- said "the enemy's

 8     military personnel."  So it says:

 9             "The most propitious means of their destruction would be usage of

10     chemical weapons or aerosol grenades and bombs.  Using these means would

11     accelerate the surrender of Muslims and the fall of Zepa."

12             Now, General Tolimir's proposal to use chemical weapons against

13     the Muslim military, was this something that had been done before, the

14     use of chemical weapons against the Muslims, to your knowledge?

15        A.   When I testified in the previous trial, I also told you that this

16     document seemed illogical to me because it was addressed personally to

17     General Miletic, who is lower in rank than the chief of the Security and

18     Intelligence Centre.  I told you that this document was not discussed in

19     the staff, and I said that throughout the war, and even now, I'm not

20     aware that we had aerosol bombs or that we ever used chemical weapons.  I

21     was unable to provide a logical explanation in the previous trial, too.

22     But having read the documents that you gave me to review these days, I

23     may be able to arrive at a logical conclusion, which may or may not be

24     correct.

25             Since we did not discuss this and since we did not use these

Page 12058

 1     weapons either against troops or civilians, we can consider this as

 2     intended to scare and delude the enemy.  Reviewing Directive 7/1 made me

 3     arrive at this conclusion, because I was in a position to read it

 4     thoroughly since Friday.

 5             Major General Tolimir is a professional, and, of course, a

 6     soldier, a military officer, does not submit a proposal to anybody lower

 7     in rank but to somebody higher in rank or position, that is, to somebody

 8     with decision-making power.

 9        Q.   We just saw in the previous document that General Miletic issued

10     a direct order.  And General Miletic would certainly be able to pass this

11     proposal on to General Mladic to receive authority; isn't that correct?

12        A.   But it's logical to submit a proposal to a commander and not

13     somebody lower in rank, somebody who cannot make decisions.  There is no

14     mediator required in the process.

15        Q.   And can you explain what you meant by that it might be used to,

16     I think you said, scare the Muslims?  How would the Muslims know about

17     this secret transmission to the Main Staff?

18        A.   Perhaps we could display Directive 7/1 again.  There's a

19     provision about security support.  That may serve to clarify the matter.

20        Q.   Well, we can always go back to that, but can you explain to me

21     what you mean?  Because we will go back to that if you ask us to, but I'd

22     like to stay on this for just a minute more.

23        A.   In war, you also use delusion.  That's one of the tasks of

24     counter-intelligence.  And it's the Security Administration that is in

25     charge of that.  You make fictitious radio networks and then you place

Page 12059

 1     false information that you expect the enemy to intercept so as to delude

 2     them of your real intentions or to scare them so that they remove their

 3     people.  This threat to use chemical weapons, which we never did, could

 4     be such a delusion.

 5        Q.   Well, you were there at the time, and we are fully aware, and I'm

 6     sure the Judges are aware, of the use of misinformation to delude the

 7     enemy.  Were you aware of any effort -- you remember reading this

 8     document.  Was there any effort to put out a false threat of using

 9     chemical weapons over the airways which we knew the Muslims could listen

10     to if it was the proper open channel?

11        A.   It's exactly in that directive where we can find instructions to

12     the commands and staffs to resort to such means.

13        Q.   Okay.  I understand that that directive several months earlier

14     perhaps suggests that, so we can go back there, but I'm talking about

15     from July 21st, when you received this.  Did you receive any information

16     that this was actually happening or going to happen?

17        A.   I didn't have any knowledge about it.  But I'm telling you now,

18     having read the directive thoroughly, I was able to derive a logical

19     conclusion from it, because otherwise it would be illogical for

20     General Tolimir, who is higher in rank, to make a proposal to

21     General Miletic.  And we didn't discuss this document in the staff.

22        Q.   And do you remember the words you used to describe what the

23     staff -- the operations staff how you found this document?

24        A.   I said that it was ridiculous because it was un-soldier-like, and

25     I arrived at the conclusion now, having read Directive 7/1.

Page 12060

 1        Q.   And did you say it was also preposterous?

 2        A.   Yes, it would have been preposterous for any member of ours to

 3     say that we should target civilians, and what's more, to target them with

 4     chemical weapons, which we never did, and use aerosol bombs, which we

 5     didn't have.

 6        Q.   Well, let's be clear.  The paragraph states that the chemical

 7     weapons will be used against the army, as we can see, as I've made it.

 8     But -- so now let's go back to the next part.  It says:

 9             "We believe that we could force the Muslims to surrender..."

10             And then that goes on.

11             What is the target that they're talking about destroying in that

12     paragraph that begins:

13             "We believe that we could force the Muslims to surrender if we

14     would destroy ..."?

15             Destroy what?

16        A.   I apologise, but which paragraph exactly are you referring to?

17        Q.   It's the one right above the commander's signature.  It starts

18     off with "Misljemani" [phoen].

19        A.   The last one?  Oh, that one.

20             We believe that by destroying --

21        Q.   Please, don't read it.  Tell me -- I don't want to get into

22     translation issues.  Tell me:  What is the target?  How do you understand

23     this document to be targeting?  Who is it targeting?  Or what?

24        A.   Well, this is mentioning -- this mentions groups, fleeing groups,

25     and that means civilian population, and that is illogical in this

Page 12061

 1     document because our target has always been BH army troops rather than

 2     civilians.

 3        Q.   But, General, isn't it a historical and military fact -- and I

 4     don't want to go into current events or history, but haven't armies,

 5     including the United States Army, other armies, targeted civilians in

 6     order to make the other side surrender?  Doesn't it work sometimes?

 7        A.   Well, we didn't do that.

 8        Q.   That's not my question.

 9        A.   You asked about historical facts.  Well, yes, armies have been

10     known to do that.  But how are we supposed to do this if we don't have

11     chemical weapons?

12        Q.   The Muslims -- did the Muslims have chemical weapons?

13        A.   There are indications that they used them at the Nesicki Plateau

14     and that they manufactured some themselves in Sarajevo.  I think the name

15     was Behar.  But that is still rather secret, under a veil of secrecy.

16     But they did use chemical weapons at the Nesicki Plateau against our

17     troops.

18        Q.   General, I have a document that suggests -- shows that chemical

19     weapons were delivered to the Rogatica Brigade about this time.  Were you

20     aware of that?  And I don't have the document now.  I didn't think this

21     was going to come up, but, if needed, I will try to find it.

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   All right.

24        A.   I didn't know that.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to 65 ter -- that's in

Page 12062

 1     evidence, I believe.

 2             65 ter 4062.

 3        Q.   And as it's -- we're waiting for it to come up, this is another

 4     document from the Rogatica Brigade, from General Tolimir.  This is on the

 5     25th of July.  You're still at work.  This is addressed to General Gvero

 6     or General Miletic.  You'll remember us discussing this one last time

 7     too.

 8             Do you remember if you received this particular document on the

 9     25th, when you were working?

10        A.   Well, I didn't see it because it was a rare occurrence for me to

11     receive anything like that because this is addressed to -- personally to

12     these people.  And when that's the case, then the code operator directly

13     hands it to the addressee.

14        Q.   All right.  And let's look at it briefly.  It talks about the

15     agreement on the disarmament of Zepa, and you received a text of the

16     agreement.  I won't read it all out.  It talks a bit more about the

17     agreement:

18             "Our representative for exchange of war prisoners cannot make

19     arrangements with the Muslims, renouncing the text of the agreement."

20             And then it says:

21             "Muslims in Zepa accepted the agreement and agreed to the status

22     of prisoners of war until all our war prisoners are exchanged.

23             "Our commission should demand all our prisoners, including ones

24     from Gorazde and Bihac.  Our prisoners have to be released between 25 and

25     28 July 1995."

Page 12063

 1             Was your brother released before this, I hope, or is he still in

 2     custody, as you'd mentioned, in Gorazde?  Do you remember when he was

 3     released?

 4        A.   My brother was released on the 6th of October, 1994.  Actually,

 5     he was exchanged.

 6        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Then I'll continue.  It says:

 7             "Advise State Commission for War Prisoners and SRK Commission not

 8     to agree to longer procedure, considering that Muslims could take

 9     advantage of the signed agreement under the pressure from Sarajevo, which

10     they have already tried to do so by bringing up the issue of prisoners

11     from Srebrenica."

12             Now, on 25 July, if you can go back in your mind, what

13     information was the Main Staff aware of on the number of prisoners that

14     were taken during the Srebrenica operation?

15        A.   I do not remember that we, in the Staff, knew the number of

16     prisoners.

17        Q.   Do you recall seeing the television shows that were shown in

18     Belgrade of large numbers of prisoners in a meadow, prisoners in front of

19     a warehouse?  Do you have any idea how many prisoners were taken in

20     Srebrenica when you got back to the Main Staff and up until about the

21     25th, when this gets sent out, talking about prisoners from Srebrenica?

22        A.   No, I do not remember.  And I never came across the information

23     that anybody knew the number.  The number of persons transported did come

24     up, or the number of buses, but they weren't prisoners.  These persons

25     were civilians.

Page 12064

 1        Q.   Did you follow the negotiations for the release or the exchange

 2     of Serbs for Muslims that the general is talking about, and did you see

 3     this issue of Srebrenica prisoners constantly hang up and delay the whole

 4     process because the Muslims kept insisting that?  Do you remember

 5     anything about what he's talking about in this last paragraph?

 6        A.   I was not involved in the negotiations, so that I don't know.

 7     And as for what was shown on TV, yes, I did see that.

 8        Q.   Were you concerned from July 17th to the 25th that there were

 9     large numbers of Muslims that were taken prisoner that now you don't know

10     anything about and that, according to General Tolimir, are hanging up the

11     ability to exchange for Serbs?

12        A.   Well, we were more concerned by the situation that arose because

13     of the pulling out of the Muslim forces from Zepa in the close vicinity

14     of the Main Staff and that could pose a danger to us.  Even we

15     officers occasionally went out with rifles in our hands to provide

16     security and so as not to be taken by surprise.

17        Q.   Were you aware on July 25th that there was hundreds of Serbian

18     prisoners in Muslim custody at that time?  Lisaca, these other places

19     you've heard about.

20        A.   Yes, that too.  Well, I don't know if there were hundreds, but I

21     knew that there were some in various areas under the control of the

22     BH army.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P122.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering the last document?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, please.  And the other one should be --

Page 12065

 1     that's 4062.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2153, Your Honours.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 5        Q.   General, we've got another one of these communications from the

 6     Main Staff.  This one is now from the Main Staff, Sector for Intelligence

 7     and Security, and we can see from the B/C/S that it's from Tolimir.  And

 8     if you could just begin reading it.  I won't read all of it.  We can see

 9     who it's sent to, various people and units.

10        A.   To the forward command post of the Drina Corps, (personally to

11     General Krstic); to the Intelligence and Security Organ of the

12     Drina Corps; to the Command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade,

13     personally to Lieutenant-Colonel Rajko Kusic and Captain Pecanac.

14        Q.   I don't want to read it --

15        A.   To the attention of the Security Organ of the East Bosnian Corps

16     and to the attention of the 1st Krajina Corps.  Those are the addressees

17     of this document.

18        Q.   Yes, and if we continue to read it --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we go to page 2 in the English.

20        Q.   And we talked about this document at the last trial, too.  And do

21     you remember how you described this document, whether or not you thought

22     it was an order or something else?  And feel free to take your time to

23     read it.

24        A.   Can you zoom in just a little bit?  Thank you.

25             I read it.

Page 12066

 1        Q.   And do you recall whether you thought this was an order or not in

 2     the previous testimony?

 3        A.   Well, here in the third paragraph you could maybe call it

 4     something like an order because it says:

 5             "Continue combat operations in order to surround and destroy the

 6     1st Zepa Brigade ..."

 7             So that paragraph, as opposed to the paragraph above it, which is

 8     merely informative.  And then the paragraph after that says:

 9             "The Muslim side agreed to an exchange ..."

10             So it is again a paragraph that simply informs about this

11     agreement that had been reached.

12             And then in the last paragraph, it says:

13             "We are going to continue to inform you."

14             Again, it's not an order, but an information.  So there are some

15     characteristics of an order but only in the third paragraph which begins

16     with the words:

17             "Continue the combat operations ..." and so on and so forth.

18        Q.   Okay.  Let me continue on that paragraph:

19             "Continue combat operations in order to surround and destroy the

20     1st Zepa Brigade until the Muslims make the exchange and carry out the

21     agreement from 24 July related to their disarmament and surrender.  Take

22     all necessary measures to prevent them from leaving the encirclement.  Do

23     not register persons you capture before cessation of fire and do not

24     report them to international organisations."

25             Instructing or saying to these addressees not to register with

Page 12067

 1     international organisations the prisoners you capture, is that soldierly?

 2        A.   Well, if it talks about the other side, that's what it is all

 3     about.  He is putting it conditionally, If something happens, then ...

 4     Probably there was information that the opposing side was supposed to

 5     carry out the exchange.  And here General Tolimir makes some sort of a

 6     provision in case that the other side cheats on the agreement.  The

 7     international law, of course, imposes a duty and an obligation to

 8     register the prisoners with the ICRC.

 9        Q.   So is there any honest military reason not to follow that

10     international law that you've just mentioned and not register people?

11        A.   This here relates to a shorter time-period until they see whether

12     the other side was going to honour the agreement.  It doesn't say "don't

13     show those people at all," because it says here:

14             "Do not register persons you capture before cessation of fire and

15     do not report them to international organisations."

16             We are going to keep them for exchange in case the Muslims do not

17     carry out the agreement or they manage to break through from the

18     encirclement.  So it's put conditionally.  He is going to keep them for

19     an exchange in such and such case.

20        Q.   But, General, don't you always register prisoners you're keeping

21     for exchange?  Is it logical to say, Don't register people, we're keeping

22     them for exchange?

23        A.   Well, they were registered by our side.  It says here, Do not

24     show them to the ICRC until everything is over, until we see whether this

25     agreement is going to be honoured; but of course they were registered by

Page 12068

 1     us.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a question.

 3             Again, this sentence:

 4             "Do not register persons captured before cessation of fire ..."

 5             What might that mean, "do not register persons"?  And then

 6     there's a second order:

 7             "... do not report them to international organisations ..."

 8             But I'm only referring to the first part.  Can you help me with

 9     that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if we divide it in this way

11     as you did, Mr. President, then we can consider it two different parts,

12     but I think it's all one, and it's probably worded in a somewhat clumsy

13     way.  It says:  "Do not register ... do not report."  I think that he

14     meant to say, Do not register and do not report to the ICRC until the

15     cessation of hostilities or until the agreement is honoured.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is written the other way around.  "Before

17     cessation of fire" is only related to the first part, at least in the

18     translation I can read.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the time is dictated by the

20     cease-fire.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If there is uncertainty when such a cease-fire

22     would be implemented, what should be done until this moment with the

23     captured prisoners or captured persons?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say so here.  I cannot

25     interpret that.

Page 12069

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asking you in principle.  Before the

 2     cease-fire agreement is signed and in place, there's uncertainty, but you

 3     have prisoners or persons kept.  What should be done with them in respect

 4     of registration?  It could last for months until a cease-fire agreement

 5     would be signed and implemented.  What should be done with them?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here:

 7             "We are going to keep them for exchange in case the Muslims do

 8     not carry out the agreement."

 9             That's what it says in the very following sentence.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You're not answering my question.  Please focus

11     on my question.

12             What should be done in a case when there is still uncertainty if

13     and when the cease-fire agreement would be signed and implemented?  What

14     should be done with the prisoners under your or any army authority?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sentence says at that moment

16     that they should not be registered and --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asking you.  What should be done, in

18     principle, with these prisoners?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They should be accommodated

20     somewhere.  And then in the following sentence it says:  "We are going to

21     keep them for an exchange."  He doesn't say, "take them there," "hide

22     them here," "secure them."  But in the following sentence he says:  "We

23     are going to keep them for an exchange."

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I can read these sentences.  And we have read

25     them and acknowledged them now several times.  I am asking you:  What

Page 12070

 1     should legally be done with the prisoners until a cease-fire agreement is

 2     signed and implemented?  Again and again I will ask you that.  I want to

 3     know what are the regulations for such a case.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The regulations say that they

 5     should be moved out from the zone of combat activity and accorded certain

 6     rights that are normally accorded to captured persons.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what about a duty to register them?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The very fact that we have them

 9     means that they are going to take down their names, but that list is not

10     going to be forwarded to the international organisations.  And then they

11     are going to be kept for an exchange.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you explain the sentence we have received

13     just at this moment:

14             "The very fact that we have them means that they are going to

15     take down their names ..."

16             Who should take down their names?  I'm asking you in principle,

17     not in relation to this text.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The unit that has captured them.

19     That unit shall report to their superior command, We have a certain

20     number of captured persons.  Then they receive the instructions about

21     where to send them.  Of course, they have to report the number of the

22     captured persons.  And when those people are moved to a more secure

23     territory, then all their personal and identifying information is going

24     to be written down.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 12071

 1             Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm afraid we need the second break now.  I said

 4     continue, but perhaps I have interrupted you and took some of your time.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I actually have just one more -- one more

 6     document, so I'm -- which won't take long.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you going to do that before the break?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I know the interpreters are probably exhausted,

 9     so I can finish very shortly after the break.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

11             We must have our second break now, and we'll resume quarter

12     past 6.00.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I see you on your feet.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, as you'll recall, when the general

18     stated we -- he said that they didn't have chemical weapons, I answered

19     by saying I thought I had a document to that effect.  I have found the

20     document I was thinking of.  It was provided to the Defence a year ago.

21     It doesn't have a 65 ter number, but I have hard copies.  I was able to

22     give it to Mr. Gajic and the general about 10 minutes ago in both

23     languages, but I would ask that I just show it to the general for his

24     comments.  And I have copies for you as well.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed that would be helpful, that we have a copy

Page 12072

 1     as well.

 2             What is the position of the Defence to that?

 3             Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Gajic.

 4             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence does not

 5     object to this document being used in the courtroom, although it was

 6     originally not on the 65 ter list.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You may use this document, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And -- so that would be this document and then

 9     one last one, so hopefully not very much longer.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness should be brought in, please.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, with your leave, one of the -- it

12     was brought to my attention that one of the exhibits was double-numbered.

13     On page 11967, 65 ter 7260 was admitted as P2140.  It should be now

14     P2154.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  During the break, we have tried to find out if

18     there's a possibility for a possible extended sitting tomorrow, and I

19     gave the guidance to the Registry that they should be prepared for an

20     extended sitting to enable the witness to conclude his examination by

21     tomorrow, until 4.00 in the afternoon.  I hope that it will not be

22     necessary to use the whole time, and we will discuss tomorrow about the

23     breaks and the schedule in detail, but we have the opportunity to have an

24     extended sitting tomorrow.

25             Mr. McCloskey.

Page 12073

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much.

 2             And I've got a document that we would assign as 65 ter 7298, and

 3     I'd like to show the Serbian to the general.  And everyone has a copy of

 4     this.

 5             General, it's not the best copy in the world, but take your time

 6     to take a look at it.

 7        Q.   So, General, I'll just help establish the basics to this.  We see

 8     that it's from the Main Staff of the VRS, the Sector for Rear Service.

 9     Is that the Logistics Sector that you spoke of earlier?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And can you tell us, just briefly, what the Technical Department

12     is?

13        A.   The Technical Department provides technical security for the

14     units.

15        Q.   And as we go down it, we see it's dated 21 July, the same date as

16     the proposal of General Tolimir regarding chemical weapons, and it says:

17             "Delivered to the Command of the 27th PoB."

18             Can you tell us what that is?

19        A.   The 27th Logistics Base.  That was a unit for logistics support

20     of the Sarajevo Romanija or the Drina Corps.  I don't remember the number

21     now, but every corps had a logistics unit that served to supply the

22     corps.

23        Q.   So was that a corps -- a corps unit or a Main Staff unit?

24        A.   Of the Main Staff.  But it was subordinated to the

25     Sector for Logistical Support because the sector is an administrative and

Page 12074

 1     planning unit, whereas the base is an executive unit.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And then we see it's also to the Command of the

 3     Drina Corps, to the Command of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment,

 4     which you've talked about.  Then it says:

 5             "The command of the 27th Logistics Base shall, for the needs of

 6     the Drina Corps, transport the following items:  Chemical rifle grenade

 7     SKD M-83, 50; chemical rifle grenade SKE M-83, 58 --"

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you kindly slow down for the

 9     interpreters.  Thank you.  We don't have the document.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down for the interpreters and the

11     court recorder.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   Do you know what a chemical rifle grenade SKD M-83 is?

14        A.   That was a rifle grenade used by an individual.  It is fired from

15     a rifle.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, is it possible to put one of the

17     copies on the ELMO?  Then everybody could read it on the screen.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Of course.

19        Q.   So, General, earlier you testified that the VRS had no chemical

20     weapons.  This is described as a chemical rifle grenade.  Do you wish to

21     clarify or change your previous testimony?

22        A.   At that time I didn't know that there were any.  Throughout

23     education, we were taught about the types of ammunition, and I was, as a

24     result of that, familiar with the rifle grenades.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

Page 12075

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             It doesn't say "rifle grenade," but "rifle mine."  Please bear

 3     that in mind because there is a big difference between the two, a rifle

 4     grenade and a rifle mine.  There is also a hand-grenade that is a hand

 5     ammunition type, thrown from the hand.  So there is a big difference

 6     between those.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we perhaps put the B/C/S version on the

 8     ELMO so that the interpreters can read that part.  I think we can see

 9     something like that.

10             Perhaps I put a question to the witness.

11             In paragraph 1, there are three items, 1, 2, 3.  Please read into

12     the record the first one in your language, in the B/C/S version.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under 1, a rifle grenade,

14     chemical - abbreviation "SKD M-13" - 50 pieces.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said "grenade," and it

17     was interpreted as "grenade."  Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   So, General, did you know on July 21st that in the stocks of the

22     VRS there were chemical rifle grenades, as described here?

23        A.   Your Honours, I did not know that.

24        Q.   Did your training tell you the difference between a chemical

25     rifle grenade SKD and SKE?  Because otherwise all the numbers are the

Page 12076

 1     same, M-83.

 2        A.   I don't know the difference between the two.  We were trained and

 3     we were taught about different types of rifle grenades, the four

 4     different types.  We learned that at school through training.

 5        Q.   Were you trained about the chemical attachments that could go in

 6     the grenade?

 7        A.   No.  But M-79 AG-1, a hand-grenade, is something that we learned

 8     about.  Military police units had those to use for different types of

 9     unrests.  It was a tear gas hand-grenade.

10        Q.   And that's number 3, special hand-grenade M-79 AG-1?

11        A.   M-79 AG-1, 49 pieces.

12        Q.   Were you trained that it was appropriate to use tear gas grenades

13     to use against the enemy in wartime?

14        A.   Well, during training, when we simulated attacks in urban areas,

15     those were used.

16        Q.   So your training allowed you to throw a tear gas grenade into a

17     building to cause the enemy to come running out and then shoot them?

18        A.   Well, more or less, that was the case, or you could throw it onto

19     a machine-gun nest or into a bunker.

20        Q.   With the same effect, to bring the soldier out so that he could

21     be killed?

22        A.   Well, to bring them out and to render them incapable of opening

23     fire from such a facility.  And that could be done in different ways.

24     They could be killed or they could flee.  The most important thing was to

25     prevent them from opening fire from such a facility.

Page 12077

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's look a little bit further into

 2     this document just to see if we can get an idea of --

 3        Q.   Is there a special handling, if any, related to this?  At the

 4     bottom of the first page it talks about:

 5             "The 27th PoB shall transport the above means to the command post

 6     of the 2nd Battalion, 65th Protection Regiment, handed over to an

 7     authorised representative of the 65th.  Upon receipt of the mentioned

 8     means, the 65th shall deliver them to the forward command post of the

 9     Drina Corps, to General Krstic, and hand it over to the authorised

10     representative of the Drina Corps.

11             "Remark:  The vehicle of the 27th PoB shall report to the service

12     in Han Pijesak, where it is going to meet the escort to take it to the

13     2nd Battalion."

14             Is this normal, that rifle grenades would be treated like this,

15     sent all the way to General Krstic and handed over like this?

16        A.   Well, in the Technical Department there were people who were

17     familiar with the types of ammunition and they were familiar with the way

18     to handle them, so that methodology that they followed here probably was

19     in line with all the technical regulations.

20        Q.   And now that you've seen that and thought about it, and bearing

21     in mind the proposal to use this material on the enemy, on the military,

22     do you now recall receiving any reports on the effectiveness or the use

23     of this chemical weapon?

24        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I've already said that I didn't know anything

25     about the use of those chemical weapons.  There were no reports.  There

Page 12078

 1     was no information from which I could draw any conclusions about the

 2     effects.

 3        Q.   All right.  On another subject:  You referred me, when we were

 4     asking questions about the use of chemical weapons, you suggested that it

 5     may have been used as misinformation, and you cited, I believe,

 6     Directive 7.1.  Perhaps I can save some time.

 7             I found a section under "Security Support," and I'll read it.  It

 8     says:

 9             "Plan and organise the work of a decoy radio network at the level

10     of the VRS Main Staff and the corps commands."

11             Is that what you were thinking of?

12        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  On the following page, in the last sentence,

13     it describes the work of Ham Radio operators.  Their work had to be

14     banned unless they were used as a decoy radio network.  I don't know

15     exactly what word was used.  You will find that at the end of that

16     security report.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, can you give us a reference?

18     Where did you read from?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, that's Prosecutor 1199.  It should be page 6

20     of the B/C/S and page 7 of the English.  It's a document I skipped.  But

21     because of his answers, I wanted to give him a chance.  P1199.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Mr. President, the witness wanted to see this, and Mr. McCloskey

Page 12079

 1     is talking about that.  Can the witness be shown what Mr. McCloskey is

 2     talking about, instead of speaking from memory?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should be brought up on the screen.

 4             And in the meantime, Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, my question concerns

 6     the last document that the Prosecutor has shown you, the one dated

 7     21st of July, 1995.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document you have in front of you in hard

 9     copy.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, it's the document signed by

11     Lieutenant-Colonel Miroslav Susnjetic [as interpreted].

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The name is, in fact, Cvijetic.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Cvijetic.

14             So when I look at this document, Witness, which deals with

15     chemical grenades, I tend to compare it to Exhibit P -- the exhibit

16     signed by Mr. Tolimir, who also deals with the use of chemical weapons,

17     and I also compare both the answers that you have provided in relation to

18     these documents.  I see that you are not questioning the fact that they,

19     indeed, possessed chemical weapons, so such as mentioned in the document

20     that you have in front of you.  But in Exhibit P488, you said, in

21     addition to this, that this was probably a manoeuvre to deceive the

22     enemy.  So the question I'm putting to you now is:  Why is it that this

23     document is not aimed also at deceiving the enemy?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I don't know,

25     because this is a document by which the logistics organs are ordered to

Page 12080

 1     distribute some quantities of materiel, but at that time I had no

 2     knowledge about that.  I have now seen for the first time that the VRS

 3     had these quantities of these armaments.  However, these armaments are

 4     used at short distances.  A rifle grenade has a range of 270 metres, and

 5     a hand-grenade can only be thrown as far as a soldier is able to throw it

 6     by hand.

 7             As for my knowledge about chemical weapons from my training

 8     received at school, I know that chemical weapons are used in artillery

 9     shells or in aeroplane bombs, but they are delivered at greater

10     distances; whereas these armaments discussed by the Prosecutor are used

11     at short distances.

12             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right.  So according to you it

13     is highly probable that the document, whose copy we have just received,

14     is stating what actually was the case, since what is mentioned is small

15     arms; whereas in Exhibit P488 we would be faced with something that is

16     like a manoeuvre aimed at deceiving the enemy but which does not

17     correspond to reality.  Is that what you're saying?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

19             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I'll try to sum it up.

20             Exhibit P488, which deals with the succession of General Tolimir,

21     from the point of view of chemical weapons, would be a manoeuvre on the

22     part of the authors of that document because these weapons were not in

23     the possession of the VRS, of the BSA; whereas the document that you have

24     before you now is an authentic document because it is dealing with the

25     possession of chemical grenades by the BSA, which is actually possible,

Page 12081

 1     isn't it, because it's -- these are small arms?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Now, in terms of deception,

 3     possibly the logistics organ, too, but I doubt that.  But, however, in

 4     accordance with this provision in the directive, this communication

 5     between General Tolimir and General Miletic via a communications channel

 6     that can be intercepted, and about this I don't know if it was a paper

 7     document or a cable because I can only see a photocopy.  If it was a

 8     document, then it was not communicated through the regular communications

 9     networks.  In that case, it could not be used for deception.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right.  Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And if I could offer that document into

13     evidence before I forget, 65 ter 7298.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which one is that?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's the rifle grenades.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which we had on the ELMO?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it will be received.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And it's actually now in e-court in B/C/S.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please give the -- you have given the 65 ter

21     numbers.  Yes, it will be received.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2154, Your Honours.  2155.  I

23     apologise.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   General, we all recall the reference in General Tolimir's

Page 12082

 1     document to not register Muslim prisoners.  In your view, is it possible

 2     that that document and that reference was done as a decoy to scare the

 3     Muslims?

 4        A.   Your Honours, I do not think that it was necessary to deceive in

 5     this way.  To make some information more convincing, if you think that

 6     the enemy can access it, it should have authentic elements in it and then

 7     also elements that can serve to deceive or scare the enemy.

 8        Q.   Were you aware -- did you receive any information that any of the

 9     Srebrenica prisoners that were taken between 12 and 13 July were ever

10     registered by the ICRC?

11        A.   I didn't receive any such information.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 5373.

13        Q.   And, General, you'll remember this.  It will come up.  This is an

14     intercept from 3 September 1995, where President Karadzic called the

15     Main Staff and you picked it up and he asked for General Miletic.  And

16     just -- if we could take a look at this.  I know that you'll remember

17     this.  We see the date and the time noted.  It's the bottom of the --

18     it's the one at the bottom of the B/C/S.  You can ignore the intercept

19     above that.  That's just how they kept track of them.

20             And we can -- I just -- really, I know you've looked at this.  Do

21     you have any recollection of this particular conversation?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you have -- do you remember it from the actual time or from

24     the last time we spoke about it in the Popovic case?

25        A.   I remember it from the actual time when it happened.

Page 12083

 1        Q.   And have you had a chance to read the entire intercept in the

 2     last few days?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is it genuine, as far as you know?

 5        A.   The part of it with me in it is, and I cannot go into whether the

 6     rest is genuine or not.

 7        Q.   All right.  And you're in it very briefly, so let's just go over

 8     that.

 9             The president calls, and you say:

10             "Good afternoon.  Colonel Obradovic.  Can I help you,

11     Mr. President?"

12             General, what happened to your training?  Why are you talking

13     like this over an open line?  Or did you think it was closed?

14        A.   I did not think it was closed because the conversation was coming

15     in from unprotected positions.

16        Q.   All right.  And the president asks for General Miletic.  You said

17     he goes down to the barracks and that he's not in the building yet.  And

18     then the president asks:

19             "Is Mladic somewhere close by?"

20             And you say:

21             "No.  He went on a trip this morning."

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we should probably flip it over in the B/C/S.

23        Q.   And the president asks you:

24             "You don't know when he's coming back; right?"

25             And you say:

Page 12084

 1             "No, I don't."

 2             Then you offer:

 3             "Tolimir is here."

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we change the page.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Why, after he can't get Miletic and Mladic, do you offer Tolimir?

 6        A.   Because at that moment, Tolimir was the highest-ranking officer

 7     anywhere near, and the person calling is the supreme commander.  He

 8     probably has a reason to call.  He didn't state the reason to me, and

 9     then that's why I offered to give him Tolimir on the line.  And he

10     agreed, Yes, give me Tolimir, because it's obvious that he didn't want to

11     communicate with me.  He was interested in talking to other people.

12        Q.   All right.  And that's all I really wanted to ask you about.  But

13     you've had a chance to, as you mentioned to me, review the entire

14     intercept, and you've made a comment that you noted about it.  Can you

15     just tell us what you noted?  About whether General Mladic was there or

16     not is what I recall is what you told me.

17        A.   Well, I told you that in the trial in which I testified earlier,

18     you put it to me that I may have lied, and I insisted that I had not lied

19     because I only testified in accordance with what I knew.  And then I

20     reviewed this conversation with Tolimir, where he says at one point, No,

21     he hasn't left, or something like that, He hasn't left yet, or something

22     along those lines.  The point was, anyway, that he hadn't left.  So I

23     concluded that you had a reason to believe that I was lying in favour of

24     General Mladic, but the information I had at the time was that the

25     commander had left in the morning, and that's why I told the supreme

Page 12085

 1     commander that the commander was absent.  I was really convinced that he

 2     was.

 3        Q.   And I asked you something about, Were you covering for

 4     General Mladic and didn't tell the president that he was actually there,

 5     or something like that; isn't that right?

 6        A.   Yes, you insisted on that.  But only these days, when I read some

 7     of the conversations between General Tolimir and President Karadzic, did

 8     I learn that the commander hadn't left, that he was there.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, General.

10             And I would offer this into evidence, this intercept.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2156, Your Honours.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I have no further questions, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             Mr. Tolimir, it is three minutes before 7.00.  I think it is

16     better for you, and to have more time to prepare your cross-examination,

17     that you commence your cross-examination tomorrow morning.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told that the Prosecution used five hours

20     and forty-one minutes.  The questions by the Judges are not included, of

21     course.  That means that we should give some more time for Mr. Tolimir as

22     well.  He indicated he will use six hours.  And you are entitled for a

23     certain amount of time in addition to that if you need it, only if it's

24     really necessary for your purposes, Mr. Tolimir, but I wanted to let you

25     know about that.  And at the end, the Prosecution must have time for

Page 12086

 1     re-examination.

 2             I'm not sure if we will be able to conclude your examination

 3     tomorrow, but we are still optimistic here in this courtroom.  Hopefully,

 4     we are able.  Otherwise, we will have to make other arrangements at a

 5     later point in time.  But you can be certain you will be able to leave on

 6     Friday in time to go home.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have to adjourn now, and we will resume

 9     tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day of

13                           March, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.