1 Wednesday, 30 March 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon.
6 As you can see, only two Judges are present today. Judge Nyambe
7 is not able to attend because of another commitment. The Chamber decided
8 to sit with two Judges, pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
9 The witness should be brought in, please.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 WITNESS: LJUBOMIR OBRADOVIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon. Sit down, please.
14 Welcome back to the courtroom. I have to remind you that the
15 affirmation to tell the truth still applies. Mr. McCloskey has
16 additional questions for you.
17 Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
19 Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honour, Judge Mindua,
21 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
22 Q. Sir, we should go where we left off, which was P1214. And if we
23 could be in page 8 in English and page 13 of the B/C/S. And if we'll
24 recall, this is the Directive for Upcoming Operations 7.
25 And, General, I just -- we've talked a bit about which branches
1 or which people have contributed to various parts of this document. Now
2 we see the section entitled "Unit Assignments," and then it starts with
3 the Krajina Corps and the 2nd Krajina Corps, and then works its way
4 through the corps.
5 Can you tell us, who or which branches would have provided the
6 information that directs these -- the corps regarding these various
7 military objectives?
8 A. The Administration for Operations and Education, as well as the
9 Organ for Branches, follow and monitor the situation in the units, the
10 level of their manning, and the chief of the administration gives the
11 proposal for the use of his own forces.
12 Q. So that the chief of the Administration of Operations and
13 Training would be the one drafting these -- this information?
14 A. He proposes the engagement of his own forces, which means the
15 troops, the military.
16 Q. All right. So at -- for this directive, that would have been
17 General Miletic?
18 A. Probably.
19 Q. And the actual wording in this, could that be changed by the
20 president or another -- General Tolimir, General Mladic, another senior
21 officer, could they offer languages for this draft before it's actually
22 sent to the president for his review and signature?
23 A. The chief of the administration gives this proposal to the Chief
24 of Staff; if not him, then the commander. The commander can then adopt
25 it fully, partially, or after some corrections have been made.
1 Q. All right. So is it fair to say that while General Miletic
2 drafts most of this, that it's impossible to tell precisely which person
3 drafted an individual sentence or section?
4 A. The basis for the use of the troops is provided by the chief of
5 the administration. Whether the superior to whom he submits his proposal
6 will make changes or whether he will fully adopt the proposal depends on
7 the moment, the conditions, and the way of thinking on the part of the
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go over a couple of pages to the
11 Drina Corps section, which should be, in Serbian, page 15. It should be
12 page 10 in the English. And we've all seen this before.
13 Q. And I -- so in concentrating on the Drina Corps, the first part
14 of it talks about:
15 "Enemy breakthroughs along the selected operative-tactical lines
16 should be prevented by extremely persistent and active defence in
17 co-operations with part of the forces of the SRK on the north-west part
18 of the war front and around the enclaves. As many enemy forces as
19 possible should be tied down by diversionary and active combat operations
20 on the north-west part of the front ..."
21 A. "North-west," yes.
22 Q. " ... using operational and tactical camouflage measures ..."
23 And this is the part I call your attention to:
24 "... while in the direction of Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves,
25 complete physical separation of Srebrenica from Zepa should be carried
1 out as soon as possible, preventing even communication between
2 individuals in the two enclaves. By planned and well-thought-out combat
3 operations, create an unbearable situation of total insecurity with no
4 hope of further survival or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and
6 Now, my first question is: Now, I know you weren't there and
7 didn't take part in this drafting, but do you know, from gaining
8 knowledge after the fact, who actually wrote out this section:
9 "... by planned and well-thought-out combat operations, create an
10 unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival
11 or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa"?
12 Do you know who actually wrote that in there?
13 A. I don't know. I never came by information as to who composed
14 that part or that particular sentence.
15 Q. Okay. And the next sentence:
16 "In case the UNPROFOR forces leave Zepa and Srebrenica, the
17 Drina Corps shall plan an operations named Jadar, with the task of
18 breaking up and destroying the Muslim forces in these enclaves and
19 definitively liberating the Drina Valley region."
20 Can we read this to mean that there would not be an operation to
21 take out the enclaves until the UNPROFOR forces left, back when they were
22 signing this in March of 1995?
23 A. Your Honours, I don't know what estimates were used in order to
24 foresee the departure of UNPROFOR. I suppose that this is based on some
25 intelligence, some information, but I don't know whose, because UNPROFOR
1 and its status and its stay in the area were all a matter of politics and
2 agreements which were reached at a higher level.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 I would like to greet everybody present in the courtroom. May
6 God's peace reign in this house, and may God's will be done in these
7 proceedings, and not necessarily mine.
8 Your Honours, this witness did not participate in the drafting of
9 the directive. He just threw a perfunctory glance at it. And now he's
10 being asked to speculate. He is asked to provide desirable answers on
11 something that he doesn't know because he never participated in that.
12 Please bear that in mind. The witness did not participate in the
13 drafting of this directive. He didn't write it. He said he didn't know.
14 So I'm sure that he doesn't know anything about the case of departure.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we heard the answer of the witness,
17 that he doesn't know anything, who drafted this part of the Directive 7.
18 However, we have seen in this court so many documents where both parties
19 put questions to the witnesses of their understanding of the document,
20 and this is exactly what Mr. McCloskey did with this witness now, asking
21 about his understanding of this document as an insider, as a person who
22 was taking -- was a member of the relevant army. So I don't see that
24 Mr. Tolimir.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Your Honour, may I just respond briefly,
1 because --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think Mr. Tolimir should add something, and
3 then you may respond.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 I apologise to you. The interpretation was of Mr. McCloskey's
6 words as to who wrote this. This is how -- the interpretation that I
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps he didn't get the question. That was:
10 Did you learn, after you returned, who wrote this, which is what I
11 actually said. And --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You received an answer, I think.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
14 And just to correct the record -- well, I can ask the witness on
15 this point.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. Please continue.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Sir, this directive was -- included the operations for the
19 time-frame that would have applied to you after your return to the
20 Main Staff, would it not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So when you retrieved this from the strong-box and read it, did
23 it have any application to you at the time of what your supreme
24 commanders might want to have in mind for the upcoming period?
25 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I said that I threw just a perfunctory look at
1 it. I did it discreetly, unbeknownst to Mr. -- to General Miletic. This
2 is a lengthy document. I didn't have time to read all of it. I just
3 leafed through it, I looked at some segments, and then I returned it.
4 Q. All right.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, let's go to B/C/S page 19. It should be 14
6 in the English.
7 Q. And I want to direct your attention to -- it's under the title
8 "Support for Combat Operations: Moral and Psychological Support." And I
9 want you to go down to paragraph 4, and it says --
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, not paragraph 4, but the fourth paragraph
11 under 6.1. It's the next page. Thank you.
12 Q. And I'll --
13 A. Can we go back, please? Please, could you read the beginning of
14 what you want me to look at. The document has been moved to the
15 following page, and I can see "Command and Control" there at the bullet
16 point 7. Now it's okay.
17 Q. Yeah, that's not going to contain the part I want. It's going to
18 be the fourth paragraph, so we need to go over to the next page. I think
19 it is the --
20 A. Very well, then.
21 Q. -- paragraph up. It begins:
22 "The relevant state and military organs responsible for work with
23 UNPROFOR ..."
24 Do you see that section?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. Okay.
2 "... and humanitarian organisations shall, through the planned
3 and unobtrusively restrictive issuing of permits, reduce and limit the
4 logistics support of UNPROFOR to the enclaves and the supply of material
5 resources to the Muslim population, making them dependent on our
6 goodwill, while at the same time avoiding condemnation by the
7 international community and international public opinion."
8 Now, when you came back on the 17th, Srebrenica was gone, pretty
9 much, as an enclave. Zepa was not receiving regular convoys; it was in a
10 particular situation. So when you got back on the 17th, did you hear
11 that this was a policy for any of the remaining enclaves, this
12 restrictive -- unobtrusively restrictive issuing of permits and the rest,
13 how it states out as to do it as to limit the support, et cetera?
14 A. Your Honours, I didn't hear anybody talk about that in my
15 presence. I did not read the entire document. I've not had the same
16 opportunity as I have now. I just cast a perfunctory glance at it again.
17 So I was not informed about this position.
18 Q. What do you think of this? Is this professional -- is this a
19 professional idea? Is it a professional direction? Is it proper?
20 A. I can share with you my personal opinion.
21 When there are conflicts, a lot of things happen. The entire
22 states are blockaded for years, for 10 years. People suffer, unable to
23 get supplies and to live normally. So from the humanitarian point of
24 view, it's not proper.
25 Q. All right. And I think we should go to the last page in both.
1 I think it's page 15 --
2 A. I apologise. I am saying this in respect of civilians. However,
3 when it comes to the enemy side, to the opposing side, then I think that
4 this is not illegal.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: We need to go back, page 21 in the B/C/S.
6 Q. General, I would agree with you. Siege warfare against -- is
7 that what you're referring to? Siege warfare against an armed force,
8 that it's completely legitimate to restrict food, supplies, armaments to
9 the actual force? Is that what you're referring to?
10 A. Yes, that's what I meant. However, here we have a situation
11 where an area is treated as a demilitarised zone, although there are
12 forces of a division there and every day they inflict losses on the army,
13 they plunder. Even before the month of June, before I came, nine
14 sabotage terrorist groups were sent to the immediate vicinity of the
15 Main Staff, and they inflicted losses on the Signals Regiment and the
16 regiment that was providing security for the Main Staff. And allegedly
17 that was done from the allegedly protected -- or, rather, allegedly
18 demilitarised zone.
19 Q. And I know of those -- of some of those incidents, and I agree
20 with you, General. And my question is: Does that conduct by the Muslim
21 forces, in your training, justify the targeting of the civilians or the
22 restriction of their humanitarian aid? Because the army is doing
23 something like that that was wrong, under the UN rules, can the Serb Army
24 take that out on the civilians?
25 A. Not towards the civilians. But in Republika Srpska, we were
1 under an embargo, and the entire population in the territory of
2 Republika Srpska suffered due to the blockade that was imposed. I'm not
3 justifying what I read here with what had happened to us, but things
4 happen. The treatment is not even-handed towards everybody.
5 Q. Thank you, General. I'm done with that. And given that last --
6 well, that last paragraph -- sorry, that came under the Morale and Legal
7 Section. That would be General Gvero's section; is that right?
8 A. Yes, the Sector for Morale, Religious, and Legal Affairs.
9 Q. And before we leave, as promised, we do now see the last page and
10 the name of the supreme commander, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, drafted by
11 Colonel Radivoje Miletic, who you've talked about, typed by
12 Sergeant Spasoja Zeljkovic. Did Zeljkovic work in Operations?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you remember where Zeljkovic worked?
15 A. I think that he was in the Logistics Sector. He was employed on
16 the computer data entry details. I think that this was done by computer.
17 Q. All right. And while we're on a simple point, you mentioned one
18 of the officers in the Main Staff as a Nikola Trkulja. Does
19 "Nedjeljko Trkulja" ring a bell?
20 A. I misspoke when I said that name. I was wrong. His name is
22 Q. And what was his position, again?
23 A. Colonel Trkulja was in the Organ for Branches, and he was the
24 chief of the Armoured Mechanised Units Branch.
25 Q. All right, thank you. And you've spoken briefly now about the
1 Main Staff, about the Operations Branch and the Chief of Staff. Can you
2 tell us, again briefly, what are the basic jobs of the assistant
3 commander? I don't want to hear about intel and security and logistics.
4 But, fundamentally, they're not commanders, they're assistant commanders.
5 What is their basic responsibility in this Main Staff, in very simple
7 A. Who do you have in mind, specifically?
8 Q. No one in particular, but just generally. What does this
9 commander share, what does his -- we know that they are at the head of
10 specific branches, but what is their basic job in relation to the
11 commander who they are assisting?
12 A. They represent the inner command, the inner circle of the
13 command. In the absence of the commander himself, one of them, appointed
14 by the commander, stands in for him or deputizes for him while he's
15 absent, in terms of co-ordination and supervising the work of the
16 Main Staff Command and the units as well.
17 Q. And do they ever offer proposals or advice to the commander on
18 their particular area of expertise?
19 A. If the commander requests advice or opinion from a sector, that
20 sector will provide their estimate or a position with regard to a
21 problem. And there is discussion about important issues. He will
22 probably want to hear their opinion, and he will want to hear their
23 proposals as well.
24 Q. Now, if General Mladic hears the proposal of, well, let's say of
25 General Gvero and issues an order pursuant to that proposal, does
1 General Gvero have responsibility regarding the overseeing or monitoring
2 of that order?
3 A. He can receive reports about things and be up to date with regard
4 to the implementation.
5 Q. What are his responsibilities regarding the implementation, and
6 the commander?
7 A. The very fact that the proposal was received from a certain
8 officer doesn't necessarily mean that implementation follows. The
9 commander may assign somebody else to oversee the implementation of that
10 task. It depends on the nature of the task.
11 Q. All right. You talked briefly about the -- I believe it was the
12 job of civil --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
14 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 12, lines 4
15 through 7, I believe that the witness's words were not very faithfully
16 recorded. I believe that the witness spoke not only about the nature of
17 the task but also about the size of the task, and there are also some
18 other inconsistencies.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, we can't check that. We have to rely
20 on the interpretation and the record. We can follow in English but not
21 in B/C/S. It is always helpful not to speak too fast, what you did just
22 now. We have to -- that may be checked later, in comparison with the
23 tape in B/C/S.
24 Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm happy to check that -- the tape on that,
1 Mr. President, so we'll try to add that, and we'll work with Mr. Gajic on
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this point in time I would put one question to
4 the witness.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Please.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is the reason why these officers are called
7 assistant commanders? What is the meaning of the word "assistant"?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a group of officers who are
9 charged with some tasks in their sectors, but they are immediately
10 subordinate to the commander and they make up the inner circle of the
11 command. If a problem arises, and let's take that there are three
12 assistants, no matter where exactly the problem lies, the commander will
13 ask everyone to hear their opinion with regard to the solution to the
14 problem. If the original proposal was mine, I'm not necessarily the one
15 to monitor the implementation of the task because the commander can adopt
16 somebody else's proposal and not necessarily the proposal of the one
17 who's in charge of the issues with -- the matters to which the task
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understood you in the following way: Is the
20 group of assistant commanders a kind of a collegium or a team? Is that a
21 correct understanding of your answer?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And one of these assistant commanders is the
24 deputy of the commander; is that correct?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the Chief of Staff.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this was, in this case, General Milovanovic;
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could it happen that one of the other assistant
5 commanders stand in for the commander?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How could that happen?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the Chief of Staff is
9 temporarily absent and the commander has to go away too, then he will
10 select one of the assistants present to stand in for him and the
11 commander while he's away. And during that time, that person will have
12 the same powers as the commander.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means the commander would appoint one of his
14 assistants to stand in for him?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
17 Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Can you give us just a brief idea of the authority of an
20 assistant commander? For example, would he normally be able to issue
21 orders to anyone he wants?
22 A. No, he doesn't have those rights. He can only issue orders in
23 the spirit of the basic decisions adopted by the commander.
24 Q. Can he issue orders to his subordinates, like you've talked to us
25 before about General Miletic had a few subordinates?
1 A. He can. Miletic can issue orders from his remit, that is, to me
2 and Colonel Djeric. That's the regular daily work. And the assistant
3 commander, if authorised to co-ordinate in the Command of the Main Staff,
4 then he could also co-ordinate some tasks between the sectors and
6 Q. Okay. And now when an assistant commander gets appointed by
7 Mladic as the person in charge, because Mladic is gone and Milovanovic is
8 gone, now what powers of order does that person have, the one who is now
9 in charge in the absence of Mladic and Milovanovic? Can he now issue
10 orders, basically, in a different way than you've described?
11 A. Well, yes, the relations are there. But I must return to the
12 first thing. Orders can be -- can only be -- can only go as far as the
13 framework laid down by the commander while he was there. But the periods
14 of time when you stand in for the commander and act on his behalf are
16 Q. All right. And I think we may get some examples that may help us
17 with that.
18 Let me now go to -- you've talked briefly about Colonel Djeric's
19 position, and I think we've referred to it as the Department of
20 Civil Affairs, and you've described that briefly. Can you tell us just a
21 little bit about the process where UNPROFOR or humanitarian organisations
22 would request convoy clearance? Who would they request those clearances
23 from? Who would handle them?
24 A. I must first correct you. You mentioned Colonel Djeric. You
25 probably meant Colonel Milos Djurdjic, who was chief of the Department
1 for Liaison with International Military Representatives.
2 Q. Yes, precisely. I apologise. Colonel Djurdjic.
3 A. All requests were received by fax in the department headed by
4 Djurdjic. Upon receiving such requests, Colonel Djurdjic processed them,
5 marked them, and so on, and turned them into proposals to the commander.
6 And he took them to the commander for approval. It was up to the
7 commander to approve these requests or not to approve them.
8 Q. And once a request was approved or not approved, did the
9 Operations Branch get involved?
10 A. Colonel Djurdjevic [as interpreted] would draft a notification to
11 the units through whose zone the convoys would travel and who manned the
12 check-points along that route. He would integrate all these requests
13 into one document, and this document, when it was typed, he would submit
14 to General Miletic for signature; if he was absent, then to his
15 Chief of Staff. Such authorisations were most frequently signed either
16 by the Chief of Staff or the by the chief of the Operations and Training
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I clarify the transcript.
19 Page 16, line 7. At the beginning of your last answer, you are
20 recorded to having referred to Colonel Djurdjevic. Is that correct?
21 Or ...
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And not Colonel Djurdjic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milos Djurdjic.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And not Colonel Djurdjevic?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise if I said "Djurdjevic,"
2 but I meant the chief of the Department for Liaison with International
3 Military Representatives, and he was Colonel Milos Djurdjic.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That clarifies the
5 situation. These names are quite similar and everybody is in a position
6 to make a mistake. I don't know if you misspoke or the interpreter
8 Mr. McCloskey, please continue.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
10 Q. Let's go to an example of some convoy materials. Let's go to
11 65 ter 6022, which is a document you'll recall seeing in the last trial.
12 And as we just take a look at this to get oriented, we'll see in
13 the English that this is dated in June. It says, 1995, and it's from
14 Major General Nicolai of the BH Headquarters. And it's requesting a
15 approval for a convoy of -- for medical evacuation. And if we look over
16 and see the original document, we can see some handwriting on it.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we go to 65 ter 5062 now. But leave the
18 English up. Excuse me, 5260. And can we blow the B/C/S version up. We
19 don't need the English version because it's on the right.
20 No, maybe we can't do that. Well, it's all right, we can do it
21 this way. We'll use the old exhibit.
22 Q. The blue writing on the top, did you do that?
23 A. The date and the signature, "14 November 2008,
24 Ljubomir Obradovic," yes.
25 Q. And that's when you testified and made these other markings on
1 the document; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. We see two red circles. One is marked with the number 1
4 on the far right. What is -- what have you circled there in number 1?
5 What is that?
6 A. On the right, the initials of General Tolimir. And there's a
7 slash. And outside the red circle there's a struck-out "A/A."
8 Q. Yes, we see that. What does that "A/A" mean?
9 A. To archive, to be archived.
10 Q. All right. And then how about the next circle with the red
11 number 2 in it; what is that encircling? What do you identify, if
12 anything, in there?
13 A. I circled the initials of General Mladic.
14 Q. Now, it's not exactly clear to us because we see some writing in
15 there. Can you write on this document again and just put an arrow to
16 where the actual initial of General Mladic is?
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, would it be possible to have the
18 original document, without these markings by the witness in the prior
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can go back to it. It was the first one I put
21 on the screen.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was 65 ter 6022; is that correct?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps we can see it more clear without the
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right, and I'll have him -- I'll ask him to
2 do that, then.
3 If we could go back to 6022. That's fine. And perhaps we can
4 blow that up just a little bit in the area that we're talking about.
5 Thank you.
6 Q. Now, can you take the pen, and if you could, circle what you've
7 concluded were the initials of General Tolimir.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And you've circled including a very long vertical line next to
10 the squiggles. Is that long vertical line part of the initials, in your
11 knowledge, or was that something else?
12 A. I think it's just a slash, not part of the initial.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's erase that, then.
14 Q. And just put a circle around what you -- the precise initials.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And can you mark that circle with an A.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Okay. Can you now circle, as precisely as you can, what you are
19 concluding are General Mladic's initials.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And can you mark that with a B.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Now, we see immediately above General Mladic's initials a word
24 that is circled. Can you tell us what that word is that's circled in
1 A. It's the affirmative word "da" in Serbian, which means "yes."
2 Q. Okay. Can you circle the whole circle of the "da" and put C by
3 that, please.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And -- thank you. Can you give us any idea why these initials
6 are on here? First of all, let's start with General Mladic's. What's
7 that mean?
8 A. It means that the commander reviewed this document when
9 Colonel Milos Djurdjic brought it to him, that he approved it, wrote
10 "Yes" on it, and confirmed or certified that with his initials.
11 Q. All right. And then why would General Tolimir be initialling
12 this document as well, as you've identified?
13 A. I don't know why there are the initials of General Tolimir here
14 and whether they were placed there before or after the commander's
16 Q. Do you recall, in your prior testimony, talking about
17 General Tolimir's involvement in this, or the Security Branch's?
18 A. This is something that concerns the Security and Intelligence
19 Sector because of our bad experience that we had with some convoys that
20 transported undeclared goods and in some cases even ammunition and
22 Q. So given the need to carefully monitor these convoys from
23 contraband, was the Security Branch involved in this monitoring and this
24 work, as we see General Tolimir is?
25 A. I don't know to what extent, but here, in this procedure of
1 approving, I don't know why these initials are here. I can only make an
2 assumption, namely that Djurdjic first took it to General Tolimir and
3 suggested that it be archived, and maybe subsequently the commander
4 approved it. And only then was this A/A mark placed here. But then
5 these are my speculations. I can't know for certain.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you tendering this?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2144, Your Honours.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that is, of course, the marked versions as
12 well as the others.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No. Are you tendering also the original? We now
14 received - this is my understanding - the document with the markings as
15 an exhibit.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, and the, of course, the other
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think that's just a good idea, to have both.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The original without the markings by the witness,
21 and this is 65 ter 6022.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, yes, absolutely.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That will be received as an exhibit.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2145, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what about 65 ter 5260, which was the
2 document with the previous markings?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think, for consistency, that's a good idea.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as well.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2146, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
8 And can we go to 65 ter 5137.
9 All right. I'm sorry, we need to go to 5211. No, sorry. We'll
10 be there in a minute. I apologise.
11 Can we go to the next page.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is still 65 ter 5137, if I'm not mistaken.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct. And this is the correct
14 document. They just were managed in a -- all right, and ... all right.
15 So let's go back to the first page. I see where we're at now.
16 And I'm sorry.
17 Q. All right. We can see here that this is a document from Miletic
18 to the UNPROFOR, and it's noting that this convoy request is not
19 approved. And we see it's in the name of Colonel Miletic. Can you read
20 the actual signature in the stamped version? And I've got the original
21 if you can't make that out.
22 A. The surname is Pandzic.
23 Q. All right. And that's -- you've mentioned Pandzic before. Where
24 did he work?
25 A. He was Colonel Radoslav Pandzic at the time in the airforce and
1 anti-aircraft defence administration.
2 Q. And since we see Miletic's name on this, was this something -- I
3 mean, we know you weren't there at this point - we can see it's
4 6 March - but would this be something that he was involved in at times,
5 notifying UNPROFOR of convoy requests, declinations or approvals?
6 A. This is information written based on a decision by the commander.
7 Q. And we understand that. I'm just asking -- we see Miletic's name
8 on the bottom of it. Would he normally be involved in notifying
10 A. Well, it wasn't something that was normally done. It was
11 normally done by the Chief of Staff. But since he was absent, it was
12 signed by Miletic. And Colonel Djurdjic, the person who actually drafted
13 it, put down this signature block, and then it was Pandzic who signed it
14 because he did not have the right to sign these documents.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And let's go to --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, please wait a moment. And we forgot
17 something else. We have to come back to another document. Judge Mindua
18 wanted to put a question to that after you had finished with this
20 But I didn't understand this procedure of signature. We have in
21 the English translation: "... for standing in for the Chief of Staff."
22 In my understanding, the Chief of Staff was General Milovanovic.
23 Standing in for him was his deputy, General Miletic, at that time perhaps
24 Colonel Miletic. How was it possible that a third person could sign this
25 document instead of Miletic? Or did I miss something?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you didn't miss
2 anything. It says: "Standing in for the Chief of Staff,
3 Colonel Miletic." However, he was probably absent. So then for the
4 person standing in, it was Colonel Pandzic who signed it.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. Is there -- do you see the word "za" there somewhere, so that
8 it's clear that Pandzic is not trying to fake Miletic's signature, that
9 he's saying "za" and then puts his own name? Can you see a "za" there?
10 In -- on the stamp, do you see "za" anywhere? Just to help us sort out
11 the process.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you circle again the "za" so that that's clear.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the Court Usher. Wait a
15 moment, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Oh, you are already a professional in court
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. We see the red circle, so I would
20 offer this into evidence before I forget.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The marked document should be a document in our
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2147, Your Honours.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: And can we go to another page in the document.
25 It should be, in e-court, page 2. And for the English, we need to go to
1 0679-3609. And I have the original of this. As we can see, the black
2 markings are very hard to make out on the screen. If I could ask the
3 witness to take a look at the original.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please. And if it's possible to enlarge
5 that part in the meantime, it would be helpful.
6 I suppose, Mr. McCloskey, you will put questions in relation to
7 the handwritten markings. Is that correct?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I'm just waiting for the English
9 translation to come up.
10 Q. But are you able to make out the original, General, what it says
11 in the handwritten part?
12 A. It says "Toso," and that is underlined.
13 "What do you think about the request?"
14 And then it says:
15 "Would it be possible to impose a condition, if we decide that in
16 the end? Give your proposal."
17 And then the initial of the commander.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Can we blow up that handwritten section.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I was told we have a problem. The
20 last marking, the word "za" was lost. It was not saved. And you may
21 proceed. But come back to that to ask the witness to encircle this word
22 again so that can be saved.
23 I think we have not the right English version on the screen in
24 relation to this document. Is that correct?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: That is correct. It should be on its way.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was the ERN number 0679-3609, if that is
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But this can't be found.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, Your Honour, I recall it, and I think the
6 general's -- what he read is my recollection of what the translator saw.
7 So I think from the transcript for now I know it's in there. I know it's
8 not ideal, but if you remember what he said, that's pretty much what the
9 translator saw as well.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: A document with the ERN number you have given is
11 not in e-court, I was told.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: No --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It may be checked later. But if you're only
14 dealing with this -- oh, here it is.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, there's tricky parts of e-court.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is a different ERN number, I was told, but now
18 we have it on the screen. This is helpful.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I thank everyone for their patience.
20 Q. And, General, could you just again circle what you recognise as
21 General Mladic's initials?
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, should we put only the B/C/S
23 version on the screen and enlarge that part?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. We don't need the English for the
25 encircling, so that's --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Oh, we didn't press the right button, I guess.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Although you are an expert.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: There's another button that needs to get pressed,
5 sir, so ...
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- the Court Usher will assist you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perfect. Thank you very much. This should be
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The marked document, I hope it is saved. It will
12 be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2148, Your Honours.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, as well, the underlying document.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as well.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2149, Your Honours.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we better go back to "za" --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- which is the same document, page 1.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need only the B/C/S version.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we get only B/C/S. Blow it up, please, a
22 little bit. Thank you.
23 Q. General, could you circle that "za" again. We've lost the -- ah,
24 you've got the button figured out. Thanks.
25 A. [Marks]
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would offer this into evidence.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was already received and has a P number, but
3 I hope it will be possible to save it. I was told we have, today, many
4 problems with the saving of markings, which is very unfortunate. We
5 should try to figure out what might be the reason during the break.
6 Have you done everything with this document? We'll come back to
7 that later to redo the marking.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I don't -- I just wanted to ask a few basic
9 questions, so we should keep it there.
10 Q. But, General, we again, here -- who wrote the note directed to
11 General Tolimir under the word "Toso"?
12 A. The commander of the Main Staff, General Mladic.
13 Q. So here again we see General Tolimir involved in a -- this is a
14 medical evacuation related to Srebrenica. Would this have security
15 implications as well?
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, we should be more precise.
18 How could we conclude on the basis of this that I was appraised of the
19 medical evacuation? Maybe the witness should be asked whether this
20 document bears any sign of my activity, any information of what I was
21 doing at the time, or maybe this is merely an assumption on the part of
22 Mr. McCloskey. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, if you can deal with this, it
24 would be helpful.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. General, let me ask you this: We just saw a similar document
2 with General Tolimir's initials on it and next to General Mladic's
3 initials, and now we see a document where General Mladic is asking
4 General Tolimir for a proposal. When General Mladic takes a serious
5 document like this and asked one of his assistant commanders for a
6 proposal, does that get shown to the assistant commander?
7 A. Well, it would be necessary to see the document for which an
8 opinion or proposal is sought.
9 Q. Let's go to the next page. It's the document you just looked at.
10 It's the one that you have in front of you. You just -- you see it?
11 I'm asking about this proposal, that it says:
12 "Toso, give me your proposal about this."
13 And it's on this medical evacuation. Would that be seen by
14 General Mladic -- excuse me, by General Tolimir?
15 A. Well, in a way, he should tell him why he is requesting his
16 proposal. Now, whether he told him about the contents of the document or
17 whether he forwarded the document to him, that I don't know.
18 Q. My question is: When General Mladic writes a note to
19 General Tolimir or any other of his assistant commanders on an important
20 document from UNPROFOR, should that note -- that handwritten original
21 note that you have in front of you, should that be passed on to
22 General Tolimir, or could it just get mislaid, or put someplace, or lost?
23 A. I cannot claim that this document actually reached
24 General Tolimir. However, based on this, he was supposed to appraise
25 himself of the contents of the document and then put forward the
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll try one more time, General.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I --
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Please.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- put a question.
6 General Mladic wrote this note, as you told us. What was his
7 expectation what will happen with this document after having made this
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was supposed to reach
10 General Tolimir so that he can give the proposal in line with the
11 question asked of him, because the administrative practice that we
12 followed gives the possibility to an officer to make a short note on the
13 margin of the document in which he either asks for a proposal or
14 instructs the subordinates to carry out a certain tasks. Or to say, I
15 approve this, or, I do not approve this. So it is possible to give a
16 short instruction. And I think that this is exactly what we are talking
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the person who receives this document with
19 the handwritten note of Mladic was supposed to forward it to the relevant
20 person, in this case to General Tolimir; is that correct?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This memo was taken to the
22 commander by Colonel Djurdjic. Whether the commander wrote it at that
23 time or later on, I don't know. But when it was returned, this document
24 was supposed to come to General Tolimir so that he could give a proposal.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Were you aware at any time where General Tolimir ignored a
4 request from General Mladic?
5 A. I don't know whether he knew about it or did not know about it.
6 I'm not aware of that. Because this line goes from the commander,
7 through Colonel Djurdjic, towards the chief of sector, so I cannot know
9 Q. Now, General, that wasn't my question. My question was more
10 general, and that is: Were you ever familiar with a time -- was there
11 ever a breakdown that you ever saw between General Mladic and
12 General Tolimir where General Tolimir would ignore a specific proposal,
13 any proposal, or any request for a proposal from General Mladic?
14 A. I was never present, I never had the possibility to see it.
15 Q. Had you ever heard of any of the assistant commanders or the
16 Chief of Staff ever ignoring General Mladic when he requests them to give
17 him a proposal?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Have you ever heard of any time where any of the assistant
20 commanders or the Chief of Staff ever did not follow out an order that
21 Mladic gave them?
22 A. I cannot know that. I don't have information about it.
23 Q. So have you ever heard about it?
24 A. No.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, my -- I can see that my time is
1 almost out, and I'm -- this has been very difficult to judge, the time
2 that this has taken, and I apologise for that. And I really don't want
3 this witness to have to stay, but if I could -- if we could break now, I
4 will try to go through my remaining materials, but I have significant
5 materials. And I will try to get a better estimate, but this has just
6 been - I apologise - very difficult. Perhaps I'm getting spoiled by
7 92 ter, but I've not given a good estimate. I don't think it should take
8 more than one more session, but I can see one more session.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the technical difficulties with the
10 markings and the tendering of documents can't count against you and,
11 therefore, I think we should proceed in the following way -- just a
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: During the break we should try to resolve the
15 technical problems. After the break you should try to get the markings
16 done again with the numbers we have already received.
17 But before we break - we have several minutes left - I would like
18 to go back to the Directive 7. That was P1214. The last page we saw - I
19 don't know which one it was - Judge Mindua wants to put a question before
20 the break. Let's see if we can get it back on the screen.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Directive 7 is 1214.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need the English translation of the page.
23 Yes, there it is.
24 Judge Mindua.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.
1 So we have Directive 7 in English and we see the page on the
3 Witness, I would just like to go back briefly to what was said
4 earlier at page 10 of the transcript, starting at line 11, regarding the
5 directive. At the bottom of the page, you have the words "Staff Sergeant
6 Spasoja Zeljkovic." You said that this person worked at the
7 Logistics Sector and that he worked at the Computer Data Department. So
8 I would like to know: That department, or this sector, was it placed
9 under the command of the supreme commander directly, or was it placed
10 under the command of the commander of the Main Staff, or was it placed
11 under the Administration of Operations and Education, led by
12 General Radivoje Miletic?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Sergeant Zeljkovic was
14 within the Logistics Sector. That sector is not directly subordinated to
15 the supreme commander. It is only subordinated through the commander of
16 the Main Staff.
17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you
18 for this information.
19 Now, I'd like to ask you this, because yesterday you explained to
20 us that the drafting of the directive, the directive is the instrument of
21 the command -- supreme commander, and it is the instrument of -- that
22 they use. You told us the directive could be elaborated in two ways;
23 there was a long method and a short method. The long method included the
24 inputs stemming from all sectors and organs, and afterwards the document
25 was signed by either the supreme commander or the staff commander,
1 Main Staff commander. So my question is the following: After the inputs
2 coming from lower organs to the supreme commander, after they have been
3 drafted, if the commander -- the supreme commander wanted to add
4 something or if he wanted to modify something, who is the person who was
5 in charge of typing the directive before the supreme commander signs it?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, who was in charge of
7 entering the amendments that may have come from the supreme commander, I
8 don't know whether there was a special person to enter those amendments
9 and who was it who was doing that job in his cabinet. In this case,
10 I think that it says that it was finalised by
11 Staff Sergeant Spasoja Zeljkovic. And if you ask me about possible
12 interventions, how they arrived, how they were typed, whether it was
13 entered by hand and then later on sent for retyping and then resent for a
14 signature, I wouldn't know the particulars of that process. I don't know
15 what was the practice. These are the possibilities that I have outlined:
16 The supreme commander would receive a typed document, he would look at
17 it, enter comments in the margin about what needed to be amended or
18 changed, and then he would return it for retyping. And that retyped
19 version would then also include his amendments.
20 In this case, it seems that the final version was typed by this
21 Staff Sergeant Zeljkovic.
22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
23 In fact, this document was drafted by Colonel Radivoje Miletic.
24 This is clear. Then the document was typed by the sergeant whose name we
25 see here. We don't really know if he was directly attached to the
1 supreme commander or to Colonel Miletic. That's something we don't know
2 from this document. But I don't really understand very clearly. Why do
3 you have to put the name of the person who typed the document if, in the
4 end, we don't know if any modifications were brought in and if he took --
5 if he took them into account when he typed the final document?
6 Witness, I don't know if you understood my question. I am just
7 trying to understand who is the person who, in the end, typed the final
8 version of the document. This is why usually the initials of the person
9 are put there. But according to your explanation it's very difficult to
10 see who was the person who typed this final version; is that right?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me clear one thing
13 Staff Sergeant Zeljkovic, in an organisational way, looking at
14 the way the establishment was at the time, he belongs to the
15 Logistics Support Sector. He is not in the sphere of the supreme
16 commander. He is, in some way, indirectly subordinated to him through
17 the commander of the Main Staff and the commander of the
18 Logistics Sector. Why it was he who was engaged to enter those things,
19 that I don't know. And what exactly happened, it's impossible for us to
20 figure out. It's possible that, for instance, when he typed the first
21 version, and then Colonel Miletic submitted it to the commander for
22 signature, maybe if he had some amendments he could have written those
23 amendments in pencil by hand on the paper and then returned the text to
24 be retyped. And then after that intervention he could have signed the
25 finalised text in the end, once again. But I don't know what actually
1 took place.
2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I understand it's very
3 difficult for you to tell us. But if this was the brief procedure or, in
4 other words, a directive coming directly from the supreme commander
5 himself, if no inputs came from subordinate services, I imagine that it
6 would be the typist of the supreme commander who would put his initials.
7 Is that right?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, not. This man
9 begins [as interpreted] to the Logistics Support Sector. I don't know if
10 you understand me. I don't exclude this possibility, but I'm simply
11 reading the document as it is written.
12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this man "belongs" to the Logistics Support
14 Sector; correct?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
17 We will try to re-mark the two documents which are already in
18 evidence as P2145 and 2147. If there was a third one, you should figure
19 that out during the break.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And also 2148.
22 We must have our first break now, and we will resume 4.25. And I
23 would like to invite Mr. McCloskey to give us an estimation of the length
24 of his examination-in-chief after the break. Thank you very much.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.27 p.m.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I was told that you have used, up
3 to now, four hours and thirteen minutes. There are three-quarters of an
4 hour left. If my recollection is serving me well, you have indicated
5 that you will use five hours. Yes.
6 Is it possible to finish in this time or do you need some more
7 time? I'm only concerned about the possibility for this witness to stay
8 over the weekend, if that is necessary, because if you are getting more
9 time, we should give the accused also additional time for his
10 cross-examination, and there will be some re-examination probably, so
11 that it is unlikely we can conclude the evidence of this witness this
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I understand that, and I hope
14 I can get done this one section. In fact, we would have no objection to
15 the witness -- in fact, I would prefer if the witness was allowed to go
16 home on Friday and that we bring him back some time after his very
17 important family engagement when he is available. As I mentioned to you,
18 it's a very important engagement that he go to. It's the celebration of
19 the anniversary of the death of his mother, I believe. And we are always
20 available for him coming back, but I will try to finish up in this
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. And, of course, we all have
23 to bear that in mind.
24 Mr. Gajic.
25 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has a
2 If the witness's testimony has to be finished this week, we
3 believe that he has either to be at home on Saturday or maybe he has to
4 travel on Saturday. We are prepared to work on Friday, even to have an
5 extended sitting on Friday if need may be.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Or perhaps tomorrow. We should consider that
7 possibility as well.
8 What is your position, Mr. McCloskey?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: From here to get to Visegrad is a long trip.
10 I think he needs to travel on Friday just to make sure. So -- but, of
11 course, we should hear, of course, from the general on these points too.
12 He's the person that should be able to offer the best ideas. But I hope
13 to finish up in the next hour and a half.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, I would like to ask you, sir. When
15 does your travel back to your home take place, on which day?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is 40 days after
17 the death of my mother, and we mark that on Saturday at 10.00 in the
18 morning in Visegrad. My family is already travelling today to be in
19 Visegrad on that day.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there were already arrangements made for
21 your travel back. When will that happen? What is the schedule of this
22 flight? Can you tell us?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Witnesses and Victims Unit told
24 me that on the 1st April there is a direct flight to Belgrade at 11.00 in
25 the morning.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And that is Friday of this week. In that case,
2 we can't sit on Friday. This is not possible. We should consider the
3 possibility of an extended sitting tomorrow, if everybody would be in
4 agreement of that. But it's premature to discuss that at this stage.
5 Mr. McCloskey, I learned that the loss of the markings had
6 something to do with the technical equipment the witness has used. We
7 have to redo it.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have two exhibits that I'm told need to be
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Excuse me. Please continue.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I've been informed that there are two
13 exhibits that need to be redone. The first one is 65 ter 5137, which was
14 given the number P2147. And it should be the first page. And I believe
15 it's the now famous "za" that we've done twice before.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need only the B/C/S version enlarged on the
17 screen, and the Court Usher should assist the witness.
18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document with the marking should now be
20 saved and is already in evidence as ... and I would like to ask the
21 Court Officer. I think it's P2147.
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's correct. Thank you.
24 Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm told the next one is the same 5137 but the
1 second page. And if we could blow that up.
2 This one, I think we'll recall that the general had the original
3 in his hands. And if he could again - thank you, General - circle
4 General Mladic's initials.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Be patient, please. One moment.
6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These markings -- this marking on this document
8 will be the Exhibit P2145, if I'm not mistaken.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, I have to correct myself. It's 2148.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go to P1214.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to clarify if the markings on the
13 document 2144 are saved. These were the initials of Mr. Tolimir and
14 General Mladic.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be checked by the Registrar.
17 I was told they are saved. It's not necessary to repeat that
19 Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, we need to go to the last page in the
21 B/C/S. This with a slight reversal, though -- yes, if we could go over
22 to the last page, page 24 in e-court. Sorry, it's the next -- it's
23 page 24.
24 Okay. We've got the Serbian correct. And now we just need to go
25 to the English. It's page 1 in English.
1 Q. Now, General, just to try to see if I can help with
2 Judge Mindua's questions about this: The directive itself was dated
3 8th of March, 1995, but this cover letter, being sent to the
4 1st Krajina Corps, is dated 17 March 1995. If the system is working as
5 it should, will the copy of the directive that's being sent along with
6 this cover letter be the final copy, the final version, of Directive 7?
7 A. A directive sent to the corps commands is its final version, the
8 final version of that directive.
9 Q. And we see the corps commands getting this directive. The
10 assistant commanders at the Main Staff that took part in the drafting of
11 the directive - we've already seen that General Miletic had one - should
12 the other assistant commanders have also had a copy of the final version?
13 A. I don't know whether it was forwarded to them.
14 Q. Yeah, I don't -- you know, I know you weren't in their offices.
15 That's not what I mean. But if the system is working as it should,
16 should the assistant commanders that took part in putting the material in
17 for this directive receive a final copy, as we know General Miletic did?
18 A. I am not sure that his copy was forwarded to him. Maybe he has
19 kept the draft that he participated in putting together, but he was not
20 supposed to get it; he was not supposed to be forwarded it, that
21 directive. It should have been sent to the chiefs of sectors and
22 independent administrations rather than to him.
23 Q. All right. So leaving General Miletic out and what version he
24 may have had in the strong-box, did you say that the directive should
25 have been sent to the other assistant commanders or should not have been
1 sent to the other assistant commanders?
2 A. Assistant commanders and chiefs of sectors should be copied with
3 the directive because they should be aware of its contents.
4 Q. All right. Thank you.
5 A. Now, as to whether those copies were sent to them or not ...
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Of course.
7 All right. Can we go to 65 ter 1815.
8 Q. And we can see, General, in looking at this, that there's a
9 receipt -- I believe it's a receipt stamp from the 1st Zvornik Light
10 Infantry Brigade up in the right-hand corner. It's dated 1 July 1995;
11 the document is, that is. And it's listed as, "To the Commands of the
12 Sarajevo Romanija Corps and Drina Corps." And I'm sure you'll agree with
13 me that the Zvornik Brigade was a member of the Drina Corps.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And this is a, as we see, a list of approved convoys.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we go to the next page in the B/C/S so
17 the general can see whose name is at the bottom.
18 Q. Now, this is a teletype, so we don't see a signature.
19 Could we go to the -- we just need to move it over so we can see
20 the name of the person that wrote it in the B/C/S.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: A bit further, please. That's fine.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. And so you -- we see this going out under the name of your boss.
24 You weren't there at the time. And you'll remember you being asked about
25 this in the previous trial, and you perhaps have had a chance to review
1 it. We notice that it's in handwritten --
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to the first page of the B/C/S and in
3 the English.
4 Q. And we can see that it's -- under the date stamp is handwritten
5 "Security organ." Now, if that was written in by the Zvornik Brigade,
6 which I believe it was, can you offer us your views on what, if anything,
7 about this document would have caused it to be of concern or sent to the
8 security organ of the Zvornik Brigade?
9 A. I don't know what was it that governed the commander of the
10 Zvornik Brigade to send a copy to the security organ. Maybe this is a
11 copy of the original document. But there's nothing there. It says here
12 "Approved." It says:
13 "We inform that we have approved the movement of the following
14 UNPROFOR convoys:"
15 And there is a list of those convoys there.
16 In any case, the brigade commander believed that his security
17 organ has to be appraised of the contents. Maybe he wanted him to follow
18 and monitor the passage of those convoys. I don't know what governed
19 him, as I say, but this may be an explanation.
20 Q. All right.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's look at -- it's page 3 of the English, and
22 it should be page 1 of the B/C/S, and it's after the -- it's within the
23 number 6. In fact, it's probably the next page, because it's just after
24 the number 6.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's on the same page in English.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. And it starts with -- and I hope I've got it for you now. I know
3 that's a bit small to look at. And General Miletic said to the
5 "Note: The movement of the convoys under items 5 and 6 above,
6 which has been approved conditionally, should be specially controlled by
7 teams at check-points and liaison officers of the Drina Corps Command.
8 Before they enter the territory of Republika Srpska on their return from
9 Zagreb, check the cargo in the six lorries. It has been agreed that the
10 six lorries will transport humanitarian aid for Zvornik and the same
11 number of lorries should bring humanitarian aid to Sarajevo, to the
12 Muslims. If the lorries come to Zvornik without the said cargo, do not
13 let them go to Sarajevo or Srebrenica."
14 And he goes on to say:
15 "In other words, when the convoy arrives in Zvornik, check it,
16 establish what it is carrying, and inform the commander, after which
17 instructions regarding continuation of their journey will be given.
18 "Inform about this only the men who deal with such issues and use
19 the details for internal purposes only. Do not reveal them to third
21 And if we look at 5 and 6, what they're talking about, I won't
22 go -- go read it all, but ...
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are referring to item 5 and 6? That should
24 be on the previous page.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, I'm sorry. We should -- everyone should be
1 able to go look at 5 and 6 so we can see what this paragraph is referring
2 to. Thank you, Mr. President.
3 We do see that 5 has to do with from Srebrenica through Bratunac,
4 Zelinje, Drinjaca, Zvornik, Karakaj, Belgrade, and Zagreb, to rotate
5 medical staff. A minibus, then personal equipment, mail bags.
6 Then the next one is from Srebrenica to Zagreb along the same
7 route, personal equipment, luggage, jeeps, lorries, people, personal
8 weapons, rations.
9 And I'm not so interested in the actual specifics of this; I
10 think it speaks for itself. But we here -- we see here that
11 General Miletic has made special care to actually repeat twice what he
12 wants to happen to this convoy. Is that something that you were aware of
13 that sometimes General Miletic would engage in when he's communicating
14 with the people that are going to be receiving these convoys?
15 A. Here, he informs and provides instructions based on a decision by
16 the commander. When requests reached them, before they wrote this
17 document, they had to analyse those convoys, their routes and points of
18 entry into the territory of the Republika Srpska, and the passage through
19 the zone of responsibility of the VRS. What governed them, what kind of
20 analysis they had, I don't know. I don't know anything about these
21 specific instructions.
22 Q. Yes, I don't want to ask you about those specific instructions,
23 just the process, so thank you for that.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's go to 65 ter -- and I should offer
25 that into evidence.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: 65 ter 1815 will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2149 [sic], Your Honours.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we go to 65 ter 4049.
4 Q. And, General, I know this is dated the 14th of July - you're not
5 quite back yet - from the Command of the 1st Podrinje Light
6 Infantry Brigade, which we know is the Rogatica Brigade, to the
7 Main Staff, personally to General Miletic, and titled "Protection of
8 TVP," which is "Secret Military Information." And it's General Tolimir
9 asking about getting radio sets with the KZU 63, which you've spoken of
10 earlier, that gives crypto-protection to voice communications.
11 Would dealing with this kind of matter, General Tolimir, fit
12 within his job as assistant commander for intelligence and security?
13 A. Yes, in terms of data protection. That's one of the tasks of the
14 Security Service, and this is carried out by the communications bodies.
15 Q. And is operational security -- security and secrecy of a military
16 operation, does that also fit in with General Tolimir's duties? I mean
18 A. Well, security organs deal with protection and security at all
19 levels, in all commands, at all levels, in all units. That's how their
20 organs branch out to the battalion commands. In battalions, there are
21 also officers who deal with security. As for operative organs, they
22 design keys for communications devices. Those are code books which are
23 temporary and valid for a certain period of time in a certain area where
24 radio communications are used. The radio set 2/2K, this is used by
25 detachments, but they are also fitted with an encryption device for data
1 protection or to protect messages, voice messages.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to another document after I
3 offer this one into evidence.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2950 [sic], Your Honours.
6 Just to correct the transcript, it's 2150 [sic]. Thank you.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: So 65 ter 4860.
8 Q. You have talked to us about the assistant commanders,
9 General Miletic's job, the job of someone that Mladic would appoint to
10 take over his duties, who can issue orders in various situations. And
11 this is a document I'm sure you'll remember that we talked about before,
12 and I think you can see the whole document on your screen. We can see
13 that it's from the Main Staff on 21 July, marked "Very Urgent," regarding
14 the dispatch of the Krajina -- of a Krajina unit from the Zvornik area to
15 the Trnovo front.
16 And if we could go to the next page in English, we'll see that it
17 went out under the name of General Miletic.
18 And we can clearly see, if we go back to the first page in
19 English, that this is an order, and it says : "I order ..." And this is
20 the 21st now. You've been back for four days.
21 Do you recall this document? We see it has that "03/4" number,
22 the strictly confidential number that you've told us was the
23 Security Branch number. Do you have any memory aside from our last
24 discussion a few years ago over this document? Do you remember if you
25 saw it at the time?
1 A. Your Honours, the document 03/4 is part of my operative
2 department. It is recorded in my book.
3 Q. And do you remember it at the time?
4 A. I can't remember this document from that time, but I can see that
5 it was registered in the log-book of the Operative Administration.
6 Q. Well, we see here General Miletic ordering -- giving an order to
7 the Command of the Drina Corps. Would that be something that he would
8 normally do as chief of the Administration of Operations and Training?
9 A. He doesn't have the right to issue orders to units, except if he
10 received oral approval over the phone or, for reasons of urgency,
11 approval from the commander.
12 Q. Well, on the 21st of July was General Milovanovic back in the
13 Krajina or was he -- do you know -- do you recall where he was after
14 General Zivanovic's party?
15 A. That day - I believe it was 20 July - before the farewell party
16 there was a briefing, short briefing, of the corps commanders to make
17 better use of the opportunity, because everybody had come to the party,
18 to briefly speak about the situation in their corps and their tensions.
19 I don't know precisely when General Milovanovic returned.
20 Q. Do you recall that on this day, the 21st, is it possible that if
21 Milovanovic had gone back to the Krajina and General Mladic had left to
22 someplace like Belgrade, that General Miletic was put in charge? Do you
23 have a recollection of General Miletic putting in charge?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. And there's a handwritten scrawl up at the top that
2 "This probably won't get off the ground."
3 And I believe it says: "Commander IK --" well, and then
4 "IKM Trnovo" is under different, as we can see, handwriting. And then
5 there's "OC," we can see in the original, "OC," and it's underlined
7 What's "OC" an abbreviation for? Do you see that up in the far
8 right-hand corner? Maybe "UC."
9 A. No, "Operative Centre." I don't know who the signatory is. One
10 of the corps commanders, possibly, with regard to the use of this unit
11 from the 1st Krajina Corps. I don't know who initialled this.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Can we go to 65 -- I would offer that
13 into evidence as well.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit P2152.
16 And I would like to correct myself. 65 ter 1815 is
17 Exhibit P2150, and 65 ter 4049 is Exhibit P2151. Thank you.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we now go to P488.
19 Q. All right. And this -- we'll let them blow that up. This is a
20 document we spoke about at the last trial. This is from the command, the
21 Rogatica Brigade, on 21 July, and it says: "To the Main Staff of the
22 VRS," personally to General Miletic. And it's entitled "The Situation in
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we can go briefly to the last page in the
25 English, we can see it's from Major General Tolimir. And now could we go
1 back to the first page.
2 Q. Do you recall receiving this document when you were on duty on
3 21 July 1995?
4 A. Yes. It was addressed personally to General Miletic.
5 Q. And do you recall actually reading the document on 21 July?
6 A. I believe so.
7 Q. All right. Paragraph 1 says:
8 "The Muslims are organising a defence along Brezova Ravan and the
9 Purtici axis. They are using bulletproof vests and combat equipment from
10 UNPROFOR. They are evacuating the population from Zepa and surrounding
11 villages towards Zlovrh, Stublic, and Sjemac."
12 Number 2:
13 "They are shooting at the UNPROFOR base in order to provoke
14 NATO's action during the Ministers' Conference that is being held with
15 the members of Contact Group (21 July). They are expecting new
16 negotiations with UNPROFOR mediation in order to evade our combat
17 activities and conditions of their surrender."
18 Number 3:
19 "I suggest that UNPROFOR and international organisations
20 represents are not allowed to come into the area of combat activities for
21 mediation during negotiations."
22 Number 4:
23 "We would believe that we would be in more advantageous position
24 for direct negotiations after we inflict losses on the enemy's military
25 personnel. We request means for crashing enemy's defence in the areas of
1 Brezova Ravan and Purtici."
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now can we go to the next page in English, and go
3 down a little bit more so we can see paragraph 5.
4 Q. Now, there is no numbered paragraph 5 in the original, so that
5 "5" in the English is a mistranslation. And this says:
6 "The most propitious means of their destruction ..."
7 And I'll refer to the -- paragraph 4 was the -- said "the enemy's
8 military personnel." So it says:
9 "The most propitious means of their destruction would be usage of
10 chemical weapons or aerosol grenades and bombs. Using these means would
11 accelerate the surrender of Muslims and the fall of Zepa."
12 Now, General Tolimir's proposal to use chemical weapons against
13 the Muslim military, was this something that had been done before, the
14 use of chemical weapons against the Muslims, to your knowledge?
15 A. When I testified in the previous trial, I also told you that this
16 document seemed illogical to me because it was addressed personally to
17 General Miletic, who is lower in rank than the chief of the Security and
18 Intelligence Centre. I told you that this document was not discussed in
19 the staff, and I said that throughout the war, and even now, I'm not
20 aware that we had aerosol bombs or that we ever used chemical weapons. I
21 was unable to provide a logical explanation in the previous trial, too.
22 But having read the documents that you gave me to review these days, I
23 may be able to arrive at a logical conclusion, which may or may not be
25 Since we did not discuss this and since we did not use these
1 weapons either against troops or civilians, we can consider this as
2 intended to scare and delude the enemy. Reviewing Directive 7/1 made me
3 arrive at this conclusion, because I was in a position to read it
4 thoroughly since Friday.
5 Major General Tolimir is a professional, and, of course, a
6 soldier, a military officer, does not submit a proposal to anybody lower
7 in rank but to somebody higher in rank or position, that is, to somebody
8 with decision-making power.
9 Q. We just saw in the previous document that General Miletic issued
10 a direct order. And General Miletic would certainly be able to pass this
11 proposal on to General Mladic to receive authority; isn't that correct?
12 A. But it's logical to submit a proposal to a commander and not
13 somebody lower in rank, somebody who cannot make decisions. There is no
14 mediator required in the process.
15 Q. And can you explain what you meant by that it might be used to,
16 I think you said, scare the Muslims? How would the Muslims know about
17 this secret transmission to the Main Staff?
18 A. Perhaps we could display Directive 7/1 again. There's a
19 provision about security support. That may serve to clarify the matter.
20 Q. Well, we can always go back to that, but can you explain to me
21 what you mean? Because we will go back to that if you ask us to, but I'd
22 like to stay on this for just a minute more.
23 A. In war, you also use delusion. That's one of the tasks of
24 counter-intelligence. And it's the Security Administration that is in
25 charge of that. You make fictitious radio networks and then you place
1 false information that you expect the enemy to intercept so as to delude
2 them of your real intentions or to scare them so that they remove their
3 people. This threat to use chemical weapons, which we never did, could
4 be such a delusion.
5 Q. Well, you were there at the time, and we are fully aware, and I'm
6 sure the Judges are aware, of the use of misinformation to delude the
7 enemy. Were you aware of any effort -- you remember reading this
8 document. Was there any effort to put out a false threat of using
9 chemical weapons over the airways which we knew the Muslims could listen
10 to if it was the proper open channel?
11 A. It's exactly in that directive where we can find instructions to
12 the commands and staffs to resort to such means.
13 Q. Okay. I understand that that directive several months earlier
14 perhaps suggests that, so we can go back there, but I'm talking about
15 from July 21st, when you received this. Did you receive any information
16 that this was actually happening or going to happen?
17 A. I didn't have any knowledge about it. But I'm telling you now,
18 having read the directive thoroughly, I was able to derive a logical
19 conclusion from it, because otherwise it would be illogical for
20 General Tolimir, who is higher in rank, to make a proposal to
21 General Miletic. And we didn't discuss this document in the staff.
22 Q. And do you remember the words you used to describe what the
23 staff -- the operations staff how you found this document?
24 A. I said that it was ridiculous because it was un-soldier-like, and
25 I arrived at the conclusion now, having read Directive 7/1.
1 Q. And did you say it was also preposterous?
2 A. Yes, it would have been preposterous for any member of ours to
3 say that we should target civilians, and what's more, to target them with
4 chemical weapons, which we never did, and use aerosol bombs, which we
5 didn't have.
6 Q. Well, let's be clear. The paragraph states that the chemical
7 weapons will be used against the army, as we can see, as I've made it.
8 But -- so now let's go back to the next part. It says:
9 "We believe that we could force the Muslims to surrender..."
10 And then that goes on.
11 What is the target that they're talking about destroying in that
12 paragraph that begins:
13 "We believe that we could force the Muslims to surrender if we
14 would destroy ..."?
15 Destroy what?
16 A. I apologise, but which paragraph exactly are you referring to?
17 Q. It's the one right above the commander's signature. It starts
18 off with "Misljemani" [phoen].
19 A. The last one? Oh, that one.
20 We believe that by destroying --
21 Q. Please, don't read it. Tell me -- I don't want to get into
22 translation issues. Tell me: What is the target? How do you understand
23 this document to be targeting? Who is it targeting? Or what?
24 A. Well, this is mentioning -- this mentions groups, fleeing groups,
25 and that means civilian population, and that is illogical in this
1 document because our target has always been BH army troops rather than
3 Q. But, General, isn't it a historical and military fact -- and I
4 don't want to go into current events or history, but haven't armies,
5 including the United States Army, other armies, targeted civilians in
6 order to make the other side surrender? Doesn't it work sometimes?
7 A. Well, we didn't do that.
8 Q. That's not my question.
9 A. You asked about historical facts. Well, yes, armies have been
10 known to do that. But how are we supposed to do this if we don't have
11 chemical weapons?
12 Q. The Muslims -- did the Muslims have chemical weapons?
13 A. There are indications that they used them at the Nesicki Plateau
14 and that they manufactured some themselves in Sarajevo. I think the name
15 was Behar. But that is still rather secret, under a veil of secrecy.
16 But they did use chemical weapons at the Nesicki Plateau against our
18 Q. General, I have a document that suggests -- shows that chemical
19 weapons were delivered to the Rogatica Brigade about this time. Were you
20 aware of that? And I don't have the document now. I didn't think this
21 was going to come up, but, if needed, I will try to find it.
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. I didn't know that.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to 65 ter -- that's in
1 evidence, I believe.
2 65 ter 4062.
3 Q. And as it's -- we're waiting for it to come up, this is another
4 document from the Rogatica Brigade, from General Tolimir. This is on the
5 25th of July. You're still at work. This is addressed to General Gvero
6 or General Miletic. You'll remember us discussing this one last time
8 Do you remember if you received this particular document on the
9 25th, when you were working?
10 A. Well, I didn't see it because it was a rare occurrence for me to
11 receive anything like that because this is addressed to -- personally to
12 these people. And when that's the case, then the code operator directly
13 hands it to the addressee.
14 Q. All right. And let's look at it briefly. It talks about the
15 agreement on the disarmament of Zepa, and you received a text of the
16 agreement. I won't read it all out. It talks a bit more about the
18 "Our representative for exchange of war prisoners cannot make
19 arrangements with the Muslims, renouncing the text of the agreement."
20 And then it says:
21 "Muslims in Zepa accepted the agreement and agreed to the status
22 of prisoners of war until all our war prisoners are exchanged.
23 "Our commission should demand all our prisoners, including ones
24 from Gorazde and Bihac. Our prisoners have to be released between 25 and
25 28 July 1995."
1 Was your brother released before this, I hope, or is he still in
2 custody, as you'd mentioned, in Gorazde? Do you remember when he was
4 A. My brother was released on the 6th of October, 1994. Actually,
5 he was exchanged.
6 Q. Okay. All right. Then I'll continue. It says:
7 "Advise State Commission for War Prisoners and SRK Commission not
8 to agree to longer procedure, considering that Muslims could take
9 advantage of the signed agreement under the pressure from Sarajevo, which
10 they have already tried to do so by bringing up the issue of prisoners
11 from Srebrenica."
12 Now, on 25 July, if you can go back in your mind, what
13 information was the Main Staff aware of on the number of prisoners that
14 were taken during the Srebrenica operation?
15 A. I do not remember that we, in the Staff, knew the number of
17 Q. Do you recall seeing the television shows that were shown in
18 Belgrade of large numbers of prisoners in a meadow, prisoners in front of
19 a warehouse? Do you have any idea how many prisoners were taken in
20 Srebrenica when you got back to the Main Staff and up until about the
21 25th, when this gets sent out, talking about prisoners from Srebrenica?
22 A. No, I do not remember. And I never came across the information
23 that anybody knew the number. The number of persons transported did come
24 up, or the number of buses, but they weren't prisoners. These persons
25 were civilians.
1 Q. Did you follow the negotiations for the release or the exchange
2 of Serbs for Muslims that the general is talking about, and did you see
3 this issue of Srebrenica prisoners constantly hang up and delay the whole
4 process because the Muslims kept insisting that? Do you remember
5 anything about what he's talking about in this last paragraph?
6 A. I was not involved in the negotiations, so that I don't know.
7 And as for what was shown on TV, yes, I did see that.
8 Q. Were you concerned from July 17th to the 25th that there were
9 large numbers of Muslims that were taken prisoner that now you don't know
10 anything about and that, according to General Tolimir, are hanging up the
11 ability to exchange for Serbs?
12 A. Well, we were more concerned by the situation that arose because
13 of the pulling out of the Muslim forces from Zepa in the close vicinity
14 of the Main Staff and that could pose a danger to us. Even we
15 officers occasionally went out with rifles in our hands to provide
16 security and so as not to be taken by surprise.
17 Q. Were you aware on July 25th that there was hundreds of Serbian
18 prisoners in Muslim custody at that time? Lisaca, these other places
19 you've heard about.
20 A. Yes, that too. Well, I don't know if there were hundreds, but I
21 knew that there were some in various areas under the control of the
22 BH army.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to P122.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you tendering the last document?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, please. And the other one should be --
1 that's 4062.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2153, Your Honours.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
5 Q. General, we've got another one of these communications from the
6 Main Staff. This one is now from the Main Staff, Sector for Intelligence
7 and Security, and we can see from the B/C/S that it's from Tolimir. And
8 if you could just begin reading it. I won't read all of it. We can see
9 who it's sent to, various people and units.
10 A. To the forward command post of the Drina Corps, (personally to
11 General Krstic); to the Intelligence and Security Organ of the
12 Drina Corps; to the Command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade,
13 personally to Lieutenant-Colonel Rajko Kusic and Captain Pecanac.
14 Q. I don't want to read it --
15 A. To the attention of the Security Organ of the East Bosnian Corps
16 and to the attention of the 1st Krajina Corps. Those are the addressees
17 of this document.
18 Q. Yes, and if we continue to read it --
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we go to page 2 in the English.
20 Q. And we talked about this document at the last trial, too. And do
21 you remember how you described this document, whether or not you thought
22 it was an order or something else? And feel free to take your time to
23 read it.
24 A. Can you zoom in just a little bit? Thank you.
25 I read it.
1 Q. And do you recall whether you thought this was an order or not in
2 the previous testimony?
3 A. Well, here in the third paragraph you could maybe call it
4 something like an order because it says:
5 "Continue combat operations in order to surround and destroy the
6 1st Zepa Brigade ..."
7 So that paragraph, as opposed to the paragraph above it, which is
8 merely informative. And then the paragraph after that says:
9 "The Muslim side agreed to an exchange ..."
10 So it is again a paragraph that simply informs about this
11 agreement that had been reached.
12 And then in the last paragraph, it says:
13 "We are going to continue to inform you."
14 Again, it's not an order, but an information. So there are some
15 characteristics of an order but only in the third paragraph which begins
16 with the words:
17 "Continue the combat operations ..." and so on and so forth.
18 Q. Okay. Let me continue on that paragraph:
19 "Continue combat operations in order to surround and destroy the
20 1st Zepa Brigade until the Muslims make the exchange and carry out the
21 agreement from 24 July related to their disarmament and surrender. Take
22 all necessary measures to prevent them from leaving the encirclement. Do
23 not register persons you capture before cessation of fire and do not
24 report them to international organisations."
25 Instructing or saying to these addressees not to register with
1 international organisations the prisoners you capture, is that soldierly?
2 A. Well, if it talks about the other side, that's what it is all
3 about. He is putting it conditionally, If something happens, then ...
4 Probably there was information that the opposing side was supposed to
5 carry out the exchange. And here General Tolimir makes some sort of a
6 provision in case that the other side cheats on the agreement. The
7 international law, of course, imposes a duty and an obligation to
8 register the prisoners with the ICRC.
9 Q. So is there any honest military reason not to follow that
10 international law that you've just mentioned and not register people?
11 A. This here relates to a shorter time-period until they see whether
12 the other side was going to honour the agreement. It doesn't say "don't
13 show those people at all," because it says here:
14 "Do not register persons you capture before cessation of fire and
15 do not report them to international organisations."
16 We are going to keep them for exchange in case the Muslims do not
17 carry out the agreement or they manage to break through from the
18 encirclement. So it's put conditionally. He is going to keep them for
19 an exchange in such and such case.
20 Q. But, General, don't you always register prisoners you're keeping
21 for exchange? Is it logical to say, Don't register people, we're keeping
22 them for exchange?
23 A. Well, they were registered by our side. It says here, Do not
24 show them to the ICRC until everything is over, until we see whether this
25 agreement is going to be honoured; but of course they were registered by
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put a question.
3 Again, this sentence:
4 "Do not register persons captured before cessation of fire ..."
5 What might that mean, "do not register persons"? And then
6 there's a second order:
7 "... do not report them to international organisations ..."
8 But I'm only referring to the first part. Can you help me with
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if we divide it in this way
11 as you did, Mr. President, then we can consider it two different parts,
12 but I think it's all one, and it's probably worded in a somewhat clumsy
13 way. It says: "Do not register ... do not report." I think that he
14 meant to say, Do not register and do not report to the ICRC until the
15 cessation of hostilities or until the agreement is honoured.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is written the other way around. "Before
17 cessation of fire" is only related to the first part, at least in the
18 translation I can read.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the time is dictated by the
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If there is uncertainty when such a cease-fire
22 would be implemented, what should be done until this moment with the
23 captured prisoners or captured persons?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say so here. I cannot
25 interpret that.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm asking you in principle. Before the
2 cease-fire agreement is signed and in place, there's uncertainty, but you
3 have prisoners or persons kept. What should be done with them in respect
4 of registration? It could last for months until a cease-fire agreement
5 would be signed and implemented. What should be done with them?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here:
7 "We are going to keep them for exchange in case the Muslims do
8 not carry out the agreement."
9 That's what it says in the very following sentence.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You're not answering my question. Please focus
11 on my question.
12 What should be done in a case when there is still uncertainty if
13 and when the cease-fire agreement would be signed and implemented? What
14 should be done with the prisoners under your or any army authority?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sentence says at that moment
16 that they should not be registered and --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm asking you. What should be done, in
18 principle, with these prisoners?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They should be accommodated
20 somewhere. And then in the following sentence it says: "We are going to
21 keep them for an exchange." He doesn't say, "take them there," "hide
22 them here," "secure them." But in the following sentence he says: "We
23 are going to keep them for an exchange."
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I can read these sentences. And we have read
25 them and acknowledged them now several times. I am asking you: What
1 should legally be done with the prisoners until a cease-fire agreement is
2 signed and implemented? Again and again I will ask you that. I want to
3 know what are the regulations for such a case.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The regulations say that they
5 should be moved out from the zone of combat activity and accorded certain
6 rights that are normally accorded to captured persons.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what about a duty to register them?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The very fact that we have them
9 means that they are going to take down their names, but that list is not
10 going to be forwarded to the international organisations. And then they
11 are going to be kept for an exchange.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you explain the sentence we have received
13 just at this moment:
14 "The very fact that we have them means that they are going to
15 take down their names ..."
16 Who should take down their names? I'm asking you in principle,
17 not in relation to this text.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The unit that has captured them.
19 That unit shall report to their superior command, We have a certain
20 number of captured persons. Then they receive the instructions about
21 where to send them. Of course, they have to report the number of the
22 captured persons. And when those people are moved to a more secure
23 territory, then all their personal and identifying information is going
24 to be written down.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 Mr. McCloskey, please continue.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm afraid we need the second break now. I said
4 continue, but perhaps I have interrupted you and took some of your time.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I actually have just one more -- one more
6 document, so I'm -- which won't take long.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you going to do that before the break?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I know the interpreters are probably exhausted,
9 so I can finish very shortly after the break.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay.
11 We must have our second break now, and we'll resume quarter
12 past 6.00.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I see you on your feet.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, as you'll recall, when the general
18 stated we -- he said that they didn't have chemical weapons, I answered
19 by saying I thought I had a document to that effect. I have found the
20 document I was thinking of. It was provided to the Defence a year ago.
21 It doesn't have a 65 ter number, but I have hard copies. I was able to
22 give it to Mr. Gajic and the general about 10 minutes ago in both
23 languages, but I would ask that I just show it to the general for his
24 comments. And I have copies for you as well.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed that would be helpful, that we have a copy
1 as well.
2 What is the position of the Defence to that?
3 Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Gajic.
4 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence does not
5 object to this document being used in the courtroom, although it was
6 originally not on the 65 ter list.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may use this document, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And -- so that would be this document and then
9 one last one, so hopefully not very much longer.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness should be brought in, please.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, with your leave, one of the -- it
12 was brought to my attention that one of the exhibits was double-numbered.
13 On page 11967, 65 ter 7260 was admitted as P2140. It should be now
14 P2154. Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: During the break, we have tried to find out if
18 there's a possibility for a possible extended sitting tomorrow, and I
19 gave the guidance to the Registry that they should be prepared for an
20 extended sitting to enable the witness to conclude his examination by
21 tomorrow, until 4.00 in the afternoon. I hope that it will not be
22 necessary to use the whole time, and we will discuss tomorrow about the
23 breaks and the schedule in detail, but we have the opportunity to have an
24 extended sitting tomorrow.
25 Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much.
2 And I've got a document that we would assign as 65 ter 7298, and
3 I'd like to show the Serbian to the general. And everyone has a copy of
5 General, it's not the best copy in the world, but take your time
6 to take a look at it.
7 Q. So, General, I'll just help establish the basics to this. We see
8 that it's from the Main Staff of the VRS, the Sector for Rear Service.
9 Is that the Logistics Sector that you spoke of earlier?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And can you tell us, just briefly, what the Technical Department
13 A. The Technical Department provides technical security for the
15 Q. And as we go down it, we see it's dated 21 July, the same date as
16 the proposal of General Tolimir regarding chemical weapons, and it says:
17 "Delivered to the Command of the 27th PoB."
18 Can you tell us what that is?
19 A. The 27th Logistics Base. That was a unit for logistics support
20 of the Sarajevo Romanija or the Drina Corps. I don't remember the number
21 now, but every corps had a logistics unit that served to supply the
23 Q. So was that a corps -- a corps unit or a Main Staff unit?
24 A. Of the Main Staff. But it was subordinated to the
25 Sector for Logistical Support because the sector is an administrative and
1 planning unit, whereas the base is an executive unit.
2 Q. Okay. And then we see it's also to the Command of the
3 Drina Corps, to the Command of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment,
4 which you've talked about. Then it says:
5 "The command of the 27th Logistics Base shall, for the needs of
6 the Drina Corps, transport the following items: Chemical rifle grenade
7 SKD M-83, 50; chemical rifle grenade SKE M-83, 58 --"
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could you kindly slow down for the
9 interpreters. Thank you. We don't have the document.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please slow down for the interpreters and the
11 court recorder.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Do you know what a chemical rifle grenade SKD M-83 is?
14 A. That was a rifle grenade used by an individual. It is fired from
15 a rifle.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, is it possible to put one of the
17 copies on the ELMO? Then everybody could read it on the screen.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Of course.
19 Q. So, General, earlier you testified that the VRS had no chemical
20 weapons. This is described as a chemical rifle grenade. Do you wish to
21 clarify or change your previous testimony?
22 A. At that time I didn't know that there were any. Throughout
23 education, we were taught about the types of ammunition, and I was, as a
24 result of that, familiar with the rifle grenades.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 It doesn't say "rifle grenade," but "rifle mine." Please bear
3 that in mind because there is a big difference between the two, a rifle
4 grenade and a rifle mine. There is also a hand-grenade that is a hand
5 ammunition type, thrown from the hand. So there is a big difference
6 between those.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we perhaps put the B/C/S version on the
8 ELMO so that the interpreters can read that part. I think we can see
9 something like that.
10 Perhaps I put a question to the witness.
11 In paragraph 1, there are three items, 1, 2, 3. Please read into
12 the record the first one in your language, in the B/C/S version.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under 1, a rifle grenade,
14 chemical - abbreviation "SKD M-13" - 50 pieces.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said "grenade," and it
17 was interpreted as "grenade." Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. So, General, did you know on July 21st that in the stocks of the
22 VRS there were chemical rifle grenades, as described here?
23 A. Your Honours, I did not know that.
24 Q. Did your training tell you the difference between a chemical
25 rifle grenade SKD and SKE? Because otherwise all the numbers are the
1 same, M-83.
2 A. I don't know the difference between the two. We were trained and
3 we were taught about different types of rifle grenades, the four
4 different types. We learned that at school through training.
5 Q. Were you trained about the chemical attachments that could go in
6 the grenade?
7 A. No. But M-79 AG-1, a hand-grenade, is something that we learned
8 about. Military police units had those to use for different types of
9 unrests. It was a tear gas hand-grenade.
10 Q. And that's number 3, special hand-grenade M-79 AG-1?
11 A. M-79 AG-1, 49 pieces.
12 Q. Were you trained that it was appropriate to use tear gas grenades
13 to use against the enemy in wartime?
14 A. Well, during training, when we simulated attacks in urban areas,
15 those were used.
16 Q. So your training allowed you to throw a tear gas grenade into a
17 building to cause the enemy to come running out and then shoot them?
18 A. Well, more or less, that was the case, or you could throw it onto
19 a machine-gun nest or into a bunker.
20 Q. With the same effect, to bring the soldier out so that he could
21 be killed?
22 A. Well, to bring them out and to render them incapable of opening
23 fire from such a facility. And that could be done in different ways.
24 They could be killed or they could flee. The most important thing was to
25 prevent them from opening fire from such a facility.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's look a little bit further into
2 this document just to see if we can get an idea of --
3 Q. Is there a special handling, if any, related to this? At the
4 bottom of the first page it talks about:
5 "The 27th PoB shall transport the above means to the command post
6 of the 2nd Battalion, 65th Protection Regiment, handed over to an
7 authorised representative of the 65th. Upon receipt of the mentioned
8 means, the 65th shall deliver them to the forward command post of the
9 Drina Corps, to General Krstic, and hand it over to the authorised
10 representative of the Drina Corps.
11 "Remark: The vehicle of the 27th PoB shall report to the service
12 in Han Pijesak, where it is going to meet the escort to take it to the
13 2nd Battalion."
14 Is this normal, that rifle grenades would be treated like this,
15 sent all the way to General Krstic and handed over like this?
16 A. Well, in the Technical Department there were people who were
17 familiar with the types of ammunition and they were familiar with the way
18 to handle them, so that methodology that they followed here probably was
19 in line with all the technical regulations.
20 Q. And now that you've seen that and thought about it, and bearing
21 in mind the proposal to use this material on the enemy, on the military,
22 do you now recall receiving any reports on the effectiveness or the use
23 of this chemical weapon?
24 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I've already said that I didn't know anything
25 about the use of those chemical weapons. There were no reports. There
1 was no information from which I could draw any conclusions about the
3 Q. All right. On another subject: You referred me, when we were
4 asking questions about the use of chemical weapons, you suggested that it
5 may have been used as misinformation, and you cited, I believe,
6 Directive 7.1. Perhaps I can save some time.
7 I found a section under "Security Support," and I'll read it. It
9 "Plan and organise the work of a decoy radio network at the level
10 of the VRS Main Staff and the corps commands."
11 Is that what you were thinking of?
12 A. Yes, Your Honours. On the following page, in the last sentence,
13 it describes the work of Ham Radio operators. Their work had to be
14 banned unless they were used as a decoy radio network. I don't know
15 exactly what word was used. You will find that at the end of that
16 security report.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, can you give us a reference?
18 Where did you read from?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's Prosecutor 1199. It should be page 6
20 of the B/C/S and page 7 of the English. It's a document I skipped. But
21 because of his answers, I wanted to give him a chance. P1199.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 Mr. Tolimir.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Mr. President, the witness wanted to see this, and Mr. McCloskey
1 is talking about that. Can the witness be shown what Mr. McCloskey is
2 talking about, instead of speaking from memory?
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be brought up on the screen.
4 And in the meantime, Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, my question concerns
6 the last document that the Prosecutor has shown you, the one dated
7 21st of July, 1995.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document you have in front of you in hard
10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, it's the document signed by
11 Lieutenant-Colonel Miroslav Susnjetic [as interpreted].
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The name is, in fact, Cvijetic. Thank you.
13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Cvijetic.
14 So when I look at this document, Witness, which deals with
15 chemical grenades, I tend to compare it to Exhibit P -- the exhibit
16 signed by Mr. Tolimir, who also deals with the use of chemical weapons,
17 and I also compare both the answers that you have provided in relation to
18 these documents. I see that you are not questioning the fact that they,
19 indeed, possessed chemical weapons, so such as mentioned in the document
20 that you have in front of you. But in Exhibit P488, you said, in
21 addition to this, that this was probably a manoeuvre to deceive the
22 enemy. So the question I'm putting to you now is: Why is it that this
23 document is not aimed also at deceiving the enemy?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I don't know,
25 because this is a document by which the logistics organs are ordered to
1 distribute some quantities of materiel, but at that time I had no
2 knowledge about that. I have now seen for the first time that the VRS
3 had these quantities of these armaments. However, these armaments are
4 used at short distances. A rifle grenade has a range of 270 metres, and
5 a hand-grenade can only be thrown as far as a soldier is able to throw it
6 by hand.
7 As for my knowledge about chemical weapons from my training
8 received at school, I know that chemical weapons are used in artillery
9 shells or in aeroplane bombs, but they are delivered at greater
10 distances; whereas these armaments discussed by the Prosecutor are used
11 at short distances.
12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. So according to you it
13 is highly probable that the document, whose copy we have just received,
14 is stating what actually was the case, since what is mentioned is small
15 arms; whereas in Exhibit P488 we would be faced with something that is
16 like a manoeuvre aimed at deceiving the enemy but which does not
17 correspond to reality. Is that what you're saying?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.
19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I'll try to sum it up.
20 Exhibit P488, which deals with the succession of General Tolimir,
21 from the point of view of chemical weapons, would be a manoeuvre on the
22 part of the authors of that document because these weapons were not in
23 the possession of the VRS, of the BSA; whereas the document that you have
24 before you now is an authentic document because it is dealing with the
25 possession of chemical grenades by the BSA, which is actually possible,
1 isn't it, because it's -- these are small arms?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Now, in terms of deception,
3 possibly the logistics organ, too, but I doubt that. But, however, in
4 accordance with this provision in the directive, this communication
5 between General Tolimir and General Miletic via a communications channel
6 that can be intercepted, and about this I don't know if it was a paper
7 document or a cable because I can only see a photocopy. If it was a
8 document, then it was not communicated through the regular communications
9 networks. In that case, it could not be used for deception.
10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And if I could offer that document into
13 evidence before I forget, 65 ter 7298.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which one is that?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's the rifle grenades.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which we had on the ELMO?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it will be received.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And it's actually now in e-court in B/C/S.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please give the -- you have given the 65 ter
21 numbers. Yes, it will be received.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2154, Your Honours. 2155. I
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. General, we all recall the reference in General Tolimir's
1 document to not register Muslim prisoners. In your view, is it possible
2 that that document and that reference was done as a decoy to scare the
4 A. Your Honours, I do not think that it was necessary to deceive in
5 this way. To make some information more convincing, if you think that
6 the enemy can access it, it should have authentic elements in it and then
7 also elements that can serve to deceive or scare the enemy.
8 Q. Were you aware -- did you receive any information that any of the
9 Srebrenica prisoners that were taken between 12 and 13 July were ever
10 registered by the ICRC?
11 A. I didn't receive any such information.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 5373.
13 Q. And, General, you'll remember this. It will come up. This is an
14 intercept from 3 September 1995, where President Karadzic called the
15 Main Staff and you picked it up and he asked for General Miletic. And
16 just -- if we could take a look at this. I know that you'll remember
17 this. We see the date and the time noted. It's the bottom of the --
18 it's the one at the bottom of the B/C/S. You can ignore the intercept
19 above that. That's just how they kept track of them.
20 And we can -- I just -- really, I know you've looked at this. Do
21 you have any recollection of this particular conversation?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you have -- do you remember it from the actual time or from
24 the last time we spoke about it in the Popovic case?
25 A. I remember it from the actual time when it happened.
1 Q. And have you had a chance to read the entire intercept in the
2 last few days?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is it genuine, as far as you know?
5 A. The part of it with me in it is, and I cannot go into whether the
6 rest is genuine or not.
7 Q. All right. And you're in it very briefly, so let's just go over
9 The president calls, and you say:
10 "Good afternoon. Colonel Obradovic. Can I help you,
11 Mr. President?"
12 General, what happened to your training? Why are you talking
13 like this over an open line? Or did you think it was closed?
14 A. I did not think it was closed because the conversation was coming
15 in from unprotected positions.
16 Q. All right. And the president asks for General Miletic. You said
17 he goes down to the barracks and that he's not in the building yet. And
18 then the president asks:
19 "Is Mladic somewhere close by?"
20 And you say:
21 "No. He went on a trip this morning."
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we should probably flip it over in the B/C/S.
23 Q. And the president asks you:
24 "You don't know when he's coming back; right?"
25 And you say:
1 "No, I don't."
2 Then you offer:
3 "Tolimir is here."
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we change the page. Thank you.
5 Q. Why, after he can't get Miletic and Mladic, do you offer Tolimir?
6 A. Because at that moment, Tolimir was the highest-ranking officer
7 anywhere near, and the person calling is the supreme commander. He
8 probably has a reason to call. He didn't state the reason to me, and
9 then that's why I offered to give him Tolimir on the line. And he
10 agreed, Yes, give me Tolimir, because it's obvious that he didn't want to
11 communicate with me. He was interested in talking to other people.
12 Q. All right. And that's all I really wanted to ask you about. But
13 you've had a chance to, as you mentioned to me, review the entire
14 intercept, and you've made a comment that you noted about it. Can you
15 just tell us what you noted? About whether General Mladic was there or
16 not is what I recall is what you told me.
17 A. Well, I told you that in the trial in which I testified earlier,
18 you put it to me that I may have lied, and I insisted that I had not lied
19 because I only testified in accordance with what I knew. And then I
20 reviewed this conversation with Tolimir, where he says at one point, No,
21 he hasn't left, or something like that, He hasn't left yet, or something
22 along those lines. The point was, anyway, that he hadn't left. So I
23 concluded that you had a reason to believe that I was lying in favour of
24 General Mladic, but the information I had at the time was that the
25 commander had left in the morning, and that's why I told the supreme
1 commander that the commander was absent. I was really convinced that he
3 Q. And I asked you something about, Were you covering for
4 General Mladic and didn't tell the president that he was actually there,
5 or something like that; isn't that right?
6 A. Yes, you insisted on that. But only these days, when I read some
7 of the conversations between General Tolimir and President Karadzic, did
8 I learn that the commander hadn't left, that he was there.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, General.
10 And I would offer this into evidence, this intercept.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2156, Your Honours.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I have no further questions, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
15 Mr. Tolimir, it is three minutes before 7.00. I think it is
16 better for you, and to have more time to prepare your cross-examination,
17 that you commence your cross-examination tomorrow morning.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was told that the Prosecution used five hours
20 and forty-one minutes. The questions by the Judges are not included, of
21 course. That means that we should give some more time for Mr. Tolimir as
22 well. He indicated he will use six hours. And you are entitled for a
23 certain amount of time in addition to that if you need it, only if it's
24 really necessary for your purposes, Mr. Tolimir, but I wanted to let you
25 know about that. And at the end, the Prosecution must have time for
2 I'm not sure if we will be able to conclude your examination
3 tomorrow, but we are still optimistic here in this courtroom. Hopefully,
4 we are able. Otherwise, we will have to make other arrangements at a
5 later point in time. But you can be certain you will be able to leave on
6 Friday in time to go home.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have to adjourn now, and we will resume
9 tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day of
13 March, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.