Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12697

 1                           Wednesday, 13 April 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

 6     Unexpectedly, we are in Courtroom II again because of the unexpected

 7     problems in Courtroom III.  And so we are in Courtroom II, and because of

 8     these technical reasons, we start a little bit later than usual.

 9             I would like to raise one problem.

10             Initially, the Chamber granted testimony by videolink for a

11     witness to be heard next week.  In the meantime, the Prosecution withdrew

12     this witness from the witness list, so that our decision of 24th of

13     March, 2011, is moot.  I just wanted to put it on the record.

14             I think there are some procedural matters to discuss because of

15     the next witness.

16             Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning,

18     Your Honours.

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14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First, we turn into private session.

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Page 12699











11     Pages 12699-12712 redacted. Private session.















Page 12713

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10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

12     you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, would you please rise.  And the Court Usher

14     is asked to assist you.

15             Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is

16     shown to you now.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  ZORAN CARKIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

22             As you have heard, we already discussed the caution, and I would

23     like to read out the relevant part of our Rules of Procedure and

24     Evidence, Rule 90(E).  I quote:

25             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

Page 12714

 1     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

 2     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

 3     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

 4     offence, other than false testimony."

 5             Sir, did you understand this provision?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             Now Mr. McCloskey is commencing his examination-in-chief.

 9             Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

12        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Carkic.  Can you tell us your name and

13     spell your last name, please, for the record?

14        A.   Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.  My name is Zoran Carkic,

15     C-a-r-k-i-c.  The first C is pronounced "ch" and the last C is pronounced

16     as "ch".

17        Q.   And where were you born?

18        A.   In Rogatica.

19        Q.   And when?

20        A.   Other 18th of June, 1962.

21        Q.   And did you grow up there?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And did you do your mandatory JNA service?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And when did you do that?

Page 12715

 1        A.   From 1992 to 1993.

 2        Q.   1992 and 1993, when --

 3        A.   I think so, I think so.  Or, actually, 1991, 1992 -- 1992 to

 4     1993, I think.

 5        Q.   Do you remember when the JNA left Bosnia, roughly?

 6        A.   The regular units of the Yugoslav People's Army left perhaps in

 7     May 1992, as far as I can recall.  But I can confirm that only as it

 8     applies to the city of Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   Well, that spring of 1992, what unit were you in before the JNA

10     left, if any unit?

11        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I think that I made an error when I answered

12     about serving my term of duty.  I think the year when I served my

13     military term of duty was 1982-1983.  This is where I made my error.  I

14     apologise.

15        Q.   All right.  And what unit or branch were you in in the JNA back

16     in the 1980s?

17        A.   I served at the Infantry School for Reserve Officers in Bileca.

18        Q.   And when the war broke out in Bosnia in the spring of 1992, did

19     you become a member of the VRS?

20        A.   I gave my oath to the Army of Republika Srpska in May 1992.

21        Q.   What unit were you assigned to?

22        A.   I was in the 2nd Battalion, which was manned mainly from the area

23     of Sokolac.  It was attached to the 216th Mountain Brigade of the reserve

24     forces of the JNA, which was later transformed into a unit of the Serbian

25     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That is what it was called in this

Page 12716

 1     initial period.

 2        Q.   And were you in what is commonly known as the Rogatica Brigade of

 3     the Drina Corps at some point?

 4        A.   Yes, I was.

 5        Q.   And can you just tell us when that was, but roughly?  Those early

 6     dates are not crucial, but just give us an idea.

 7        A.   I joined the Rogatica Brigade in mid-December 1992, and I

 8     remained there until the end of the war.

 9        Q.   What assignment did you receive in the Rogatica Brigade when you

10     joined?

11        A.   I was assigned to the Intelligence and Security Sector.  At the

12     moment, I cannot remember the exact title, but I think that was the post

13     of the assistant of the chief of staff for intelligence and security

14     affairs.

15        Q.   And did you retain that position throughout the war?

16        A.   Yes, basically, I remained in that position.  However, during the

17     war it was changed to the chief of the Department for Intelligence and

18     Security Affairs.

19        Q.   And so were you the chief of intelligence and security for the

20     Rogatica Brigade in 1995?

21        A.   Yes, I was, but I'd rather say that I was chief for intelligence

22     and security matters.

23        Q.   All right.  That's what I was trying to say in English.  It might

24     have gotten translated slightly differently.

25             And what was your rank in 1995?

Page 12717

 1        A.   I was a captain.

 2        Q.   And did you ever go to school to receive training in security and

 3     intelligence matters?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to July 1995, and I want to call your attention

 6     to what is now a historical fact: that the Drina Corps, forces led by

 7     General Krstic, began an attack on the morning of 14 July around the Zepa

 8     enclave, moving into the Zepa enclave.  Where were you assigned at that

 9     time of that attack?

10        A.   At the time of the attack, I was mainly involved in doing my job

11     at the south-western part of the front.  My duty, given to me by the

12     brigade command, was to cover that specific part of the front-line.

13        Q.   What front-line are you talking about when you say

14     "south-western"?

15        A.   So that's south-west due from Rogatica, so that's the front-line

16     facing the Gorazde enclave.

17        Q.   So you were dealing with Gorazde at the time that the attack on

18     Zepa was made?

19        A.   For the most part, yes, I was on that particular front-line.

20        Q.   Did you get called back to the Rogatica/Boksanica/Borike area

21     after the attack on Zepa or did you stay dealing with Gorazde?

22        A.   My main task was to tour the front-line facing Gorazde.  However,

23     in the course of the Stupcanica Operation 95, I was summoned to come to a

24     mount in Boksanica and to the Borik Plateau.

25        Q.   And to remind us, the Stupcanica campaign, that was the name of

Page 12718

 1     the campaign directed towards the Zepa enclave; is that correct?

 2        A.   If my memory serves me well, I think that was the code-name for

 3     the operation directed at Zepa.

 4        Q.   And when you came back -- when you were ordered back to, as you

 5     said, the Borike Plateau, where did you spend the night in the

 6     Borike Plateau area, if you did?

 7        A.   I visited the Borik Plateau on a number of occasions during the

 8     operation, and in compliance with a summons that some senior officers

 9     sent out to me.  So I cannot say that I was present at the Borik Plateau

10     permanently, but, rather, intermittently.  I just went there and back on

11     a number of occasions.

12        Q.   Did you ever spend the night there?

13        A.   I don't think I ever spent a night there.

14        Q.   Would you say your activities during that period from the attack

15     on Zepa for the next month were more directed towards your duties at

16     Gorazde or your duties at the Borike Plateau/Zepa area?

17        A.   My chief task in that period was to cover the front-line facing

18     Gorazde, but occasionally I was asked to come to Boksanica Mountain or

19     the Borik Plateau.  And later on, I went down to Zepa.

20        Q.   And you had just mentioned that, I believe, senior officers had

21     brought you back to the Borike Plateau.  Who did you mean?

22        A.   I don't remember saying that senior officers brought me to the

23     Borik Plateau.  I just said that I came there in response to their call

24     to me to Borike, to Sjeversko, and to the pass on Boksanica Mountain, and

25     finally to Zepa.

Page 12719

 1        Q.   Could you say the word "Sjeversko" again?  I don't think they

 2     quite got it in the transcript.  If you could just say that word again.

 3        A.   Sjeversko, S-j-e-v-e-r-s-k-o.

 4        Q.   And what senior officer or officers were you responding to?

 5        A.   I was primarily answerable to the brigade commander,

 6     Lieutenant-Colonel Rajko Kusic.  And I used to meet General Tolimir as

 7     well, General Mladic, General Krstic, but only at times.

 8        Q.   When do you first recall seeing, face to face, General Tolimir?

 9        A.   I don't recall the date, but I think it happened sometime at the

10     beginning of the operation, when I had received summons from the brigade

11     commander, who wanted me to provide information about the enemy

12     front-lines.  So that should have happened sometime during the first days

13     of the Operation Zepa.

14        Q.   And where did you see General Tolimir at that time?

15        A.   That was on Mount Boksanica.

16        Q.   Did you ever see General Tolimir at the Rogatica Brigade in

17     Rogatica?

18        A.   If I may ask you just -- are you referring to this specific

19     period?

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   I cannot recall any senior officer that I saw at the

22     Rogatica Brigade Command.

23        Q.   Where did you normally spend the night during this period?  You

24     said you didn't spend the night at the Borike area.  Where did you spend

25     the night?

Page 12720

 1        A.   I used to spend nights quite often on the front-line facing

 2     Gorazde, more specifically in the headquarters of the brigade command,

 3     because on numerous occasions I was the only duty operations officer at

 4     the command.

 5        Q.   So you said you spent sometimes the night at the front-line and

 6     sometimes the night at the headquarters of the brigade when you were duty

 7     officer?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And during this period July 1995, when you were staying at the

10     headquarters of the brigade, did -- just to make this perfectly clear,

11     did you ever see General Tolimir or General Mladic at that brigade

12     headquarters?

13        A.   As I said, I didn't, and quite simply I cannot remember seeing

14     either General Tolimir, General Mladic, or any other senior officer from

15     the Main Staff of the Drina Corps at the brigade command.  They may have

16     come there, but I didn't see them.

17        Q.   To your knowledge, where was General Tolimir working when he was

18     around Rogatica, Zepa, the Zepa area?

19        A.   If we are talking again about July of 1995, according to what I

20     know, General Tolimir was mainly deployed on Boksanica Mountain.  But I

21     also know that he used to leave Mount Boksanica on occasion.  Of course,

22     it was not my place to inquire about his whereabouts and why

23     General Tolimir was not there.  It happened sometimes that I would come,

24     in response to their summons, to Boksanica Mountain, and General Tolimir

25     was not there.  So I can't say that he didn't stay there for a continuous

Page 12721

 1     period of time.

 2        Q.   Well, the Court has heard of Boksanica.  When you say

 3     "Boksanica Mountain," what particular spot are you talking about?

 4        A.   In this context, I am referring to the pass on Mount Boksanica,

 5     on the Borike-Zepa road, and I'm also referring to the plateau where the

 6     UNPROFOR check-point of Ukrainian Battalion, I think number 2, was in the

 7     vicinity of it.

 8        Q.   And where did the Main Staff have a forward command post in the

 9     area?

10        A.   Taking into account the fact that senior officers from the

11     Main Staff, whenever they came there, including General Mladic, and

12     stayed at Boksanica Pass, where the forward command post of the brigade

13     was at the moment, of our brigade, one may deduce that in a certain

14     sense, that was the forward command post of the Main Staff as well.  But

15     this is just my assumption.  I did not have an opportunity to see the

16     specific organisational chart.

17        Q.   You talked to us about the hotel at Borike.  What significance

18     did that place have for the Main Staff?

19        A.   I don't know about the Main Staff, but I told you that that was

20     the forward command post of the brigade, at the Borik Plateau, and that

21     for a long time that was one of our communications centres.

22        Q.   Precisely where was one of your communication centres?  You

23     mentioned the plateau.  I asked you about the hotel.  Tell us where the

24     Communications Centre was.

25        A.   For a long time, the Communications Centre was at the

Page 12722

 1     Borike Hotel.

 2        Q.   And where did General Tolimir spend the nights while he was

 3     there?

 4        A.   I don't know about that.  I already said that I don't know where

 5     General Tolimir spent his nights.  And the same applies to

 6     General Mladic; I don't know.

 7        Q.   Were you in charge of their security while they were there?

 8     Wouldn't that have been your job?

 9        A.   That was supposed to be my job, but I told you that my main task

10     during that period was the front-line facing Gorazde.  Therefore, I was

11     not involved in providing security for any senior officer, including my

12     own commander.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to a document that you've

14     seen before.  It's D49.  And I've got the original of that, I believe,

15     that I want -- I know you've had a chance to see that original.  I think

16     it's best that perhaps the Defence -- perhaps the Judges would like to

17     see this original, and if we could get it up on e-court.

18             And what we see now is a -- on e-court is the typewritten B/C/S,

19     but there's also -- I think on the next page in e-court is the

20     handwritten version.  So could we just flip to the handwritten version so

21     that the general and the witness could see that we have both.

22        Q.   And just take some time to -- I know you've seen this a few

23     times.  And do you recognise the handwriting on this document?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber has seen the original document, and

25     it may be passed to the Defence and then to the witness.

Page 12723

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Witness, you're welcome to wait to answer

 2     that until you see that original, if that would help you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now it is given to the witness.  Please have a

 4     look.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Okay.  Looking at the original now, do you recognise the

 7     handwriting?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.  I think that this is my handwriting, especially when

 9     I'm writing things down quickly and at speed.  So I do not dispute that

10     this is my handwriting.  I can't say anything in contravention of that.

11     It looks like my handwriting.

12        Q.   Sir, you've had a chance to think about this.  Can you tell us,

13     is this your handwriting, or are you really not sure?

14        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I suppose that you will not be happy with my

15     answer, and neither will be the Judges, and probably the Defence as well.

16             I allow for a possibility that this is my handwriting, but I

17     cannot ascertain exactly because I don't remember the date, the time, the

18     hour, and the manner in which this was formatted.  I don't remember this

19     specific piece of paper.  I don't remember in which way General Tolimir

20     wrote this.  And I, in addition to that, don't remember the content of

21     this document.  And I spoke about this on several occasions before.

22        Q.   Well, of course, don't worry about making anyone happy, except

23     yourself, and tell the truth.  That's not something to worry about.

24             You've said that you think it is your handwriting.  Why is it

25     that you think it is your handwriting?  If I recall, you're an architect

Page 12724

 1     by profession.  Aren't you?

 2        A.   Yes, I am.  This is very similar to my handwriting, and it is

 3     identical to my handwriting when I am writing quickly.  That's all I can

 4     say about the graphic aspect of -- or graphological aspect of this

 5     document.

 6        Q.   And would you have drafted this yourself?  Would it have been

 7     dictated to you?  Can you give us any information on that?

 8        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I already told you, and I will repeat, that there

 9     is something which is almost beyond doubt, and that is that, most

10     probably, this is my handwriting.

11             And there is something that I would really dare confirm.

12     Concerning the implementation of the content of this document, it never

13     happened, because otherwise I would have known about such a large number

14     of people in the area of responsibility of the brigade.  I should have

15     known that.  However, as far as I can remember, that was not the case.

16             As for everything else, I cannot delve into my memory and find

17     anything whatsoever in relation to this.

18        Q.   Well, I'll ask you about the substance in a bit.  But can you

19     remember or can you deduce whether this would be something you drafted

20     yourself or whether it would have been dictated to you?

21        A.   There's no question that I'm able to write this on my own.

22        Q.   And who would you have received the information from to write

23     this?

24        A.   Well, you can see from this working sketch something that you

25     could infer.  Obviously, it says in this draft that

Page 12725

 1     Major General Zdravko Tolimir should be the signatory.  But, again, I'm

 2     telling you I cannot remember the time when this was written.  All that

 3     I've said could be just a reconstruction of events on my part, inferences

 4     as to what could have happened to lead to the writing of such a document,

 5     but that would be just a reconstruction.  And I do not dare go into

 6     reconstructions, because this is a much too serious matter for me to

 7     venture my own opinions.  But even in this cable form, it says that

 8     General Tolimir is the signatory.  There's nothing more I can say,

 9     nothing.

10        Q.   Well, we can see from the teletyped version that it is from the

11     Command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, known as the

12     Rogatica Brigade.  Do you recall where you were when you wrote this?

13        A.   My answer must be the same.  I suppose, by reconstructing events,

14     that this was written somewhere in the field, perhaps on Mount Boksanica,

15     and that I forwarded this document to the teletype encryption room, that

16     is, to the Communication Centre, where it was typed up and then sent to

17     General Gvero.  That would have been a logical sequence of the writing of

18     a document that was drafted first somewhere in the field before it

19     reached its destination.  That's the procedure, normally.  But when I try

20     to remember this, I'm drawing a blank.

21        Q.   All right.  Let me ask you a couple of questions about the

22     substance of it.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, if you turn to a couple of

24     questions, we should think about our first break.  We started a moment

25     later, but I don't know if this is the right moment or a little bit

Page 12726

 1     later.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is fine, Mr. President.  I'm ready to take a

 3     break.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We must have our first break now, and we will

 5     resume at 11.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   All right.  Mr. Carkic, just a couple of questions about the text

11     of this.  That first -- if you could look at the first paragraph, and it

12     says:  "Accommodation of r/z."  Can you tell us what "r/z" means?

13        A.   It's the usual acronym for "prisoners of war."

14        Q.   Okay.  And then the first paragraph says:

15             "If you are unable to find adequate accommodation for all the

16     r/z's from Srebrenica, we hereby inform you that space with ... has been

17     arranged for 800 prisoners of war in the 1st plpbr in Sjemec ."

18             Now, our interpreter did not know what this word "palacama" is,

19     I think.  Can you tell us what that word means?  And I'm --

20     p-a-l-a-c-a-m-a."

21        A.   That word means a very simple wooden frame on which you can put

22     bedding; sheets, blankets, like pallets.  They can be easily placed in

23     all sorts of premises and serve that purpose.

24        Q.   Okay.  And what I want to ask you about is, this part that

25     General Tolimir is telling to Gvero, and it says that space for 800

Page 12727

 1     prisoners of war has been arranged.  Now, clearly from this document,

 2     General Tolimir has information that space for 800 people has been

 3     arranged.  So, tell me, what do you know of these arrangements that

 4     General Tolimir is referring to?

 5        A.   I've already said that the contents do not ring a bell, but I

 6     suppose it's a building in Sjemecko Polje, which is on the road from

 7     Borike to Visegrad.  These are, in fact, agricultural buildings,

 8     hutments, and I don't know that they have ever been used for this or any

 9     similar purpose.  Whether there were any pallets there, I don't know.  I

10     suppose they could have been made.  But whether there were any pallets at

11     that time in that building, I cannot confirm.

12        Q.   But as chief of security, wouldn't you have been the one that

13     would have known, if not made, the arrangements for the 800 people that

14     General Tolimir is referring to?

15        A.   I've never had such an assignment ever.  Nobody ever gave me such

16     an assignment, and I've never visited those buildings.

17        Q.   Can you imagine General Tolimir saying something like this if the

18     arrangements he's speaking of had not been made?

19        A.   I can only suppose that General Tolimir had this intention that

20     we see from the text, that 800 POWs from the area of Srebrenica be placed

21     in the area of Sjemec to do what we see from the text, to carry out

22     agricultural work and livestock husbandry.  I suppose if this had

23     happened, the purpose would have been as indicated in the document,

24     nothing else.  But I have never been given any assignments in that sense,

25     and I still believe that this was something between General Tolimir and

Page 12728

 1     the brigade commander, perhaps.  I, as a security/intelligence man, am

 2     not in charge of buildings and facilities.  That's not part of my duties.

 3        Q.   If there was planning for the arrival of 800 able-bodied men from

 4     Srebrenica, would that have been part of your duties, to see to their

 5     security, to see to the security of the surrounding Serb villages and

 6     countryside where they were housed?

 7        A.   Well, I think I would have to be involved at that point.  But

 8     I think this number of people would have been beyond the ability of the

 9     1st Podrinje Brigade to handle.  Additional forces would have to be

10     engaged from the Drina Corps.  So I would not be the main person

11     responsible for designing the security system in that location.

12        Q.   Well, then let's go to the next paragraph.  And General Tolimir

13     says:

14             "The 1st plpbr can guard them with its own forces ..."

15             So General Tolimir is telling General Gvero that the

16     Rogatica Brigade can guard them with Rogatica sources.  Who would

17     General Tolimir have to talk to before he could confirm such a statement

18     to General Gvero?

19        A.   Well, certainly not to me.  There was no such conversation with

20     me.  Perhaps if he talked to anyone, he must have talked to the brigade

21     commander or assistant commander for logistics to see what kind of

22     resources they had, what kind of buildings were available.  Nobody

23     consulted me on the matter.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to a map I think you've seen

25     earlier.  It should be Exhibit P04 -- sorry, P104, and I believe the one

Page 12729

 1     I'm looking for now should be 12 in e-court.

 2             And, Your Honours, this is from the little map book that I think

 3     you have a hard copy of, just so you know that's somewhere.

 4             And could we get the bottom part of this map blown up.  That's

 5     good.

 6        Q.   Now, do you -- you've seen this before, you've seen this document

 7     referring to this horse, pig and sheep farm.  Is that correct, as we have

 8     it on this map?  The Sjemec pig farm, is that the place that is being

 9     talked about in this document?

10        A.   I suppose so, I suppose that's the buildings they meant at the

11     location marked on this map as the Sjemec pig farm, but I don't remember

12     any pig farm there.  Those buildings were devastated a long time ago.

13     They have simply crumbled, because they were poorly built, and I don't

14     remember they were ever used for the purpose indicated in these

15     documents, the original document and the teletyped one.

16        Q.   And I should have asked you this before, but when you -- can you

17     tell us what you do for a living?  You've mentioned you're an architect.

18     Could you tell us a little about that so we have an idea of what you do

19     professionally?

20        A.   Right now, I am head of Section for Special Planning and Zoning

21     in Rogatica.

22        Q.   And did you -- were you trained and educated as an architect?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   All right.  And we see this farm in relation to the

25     Rogatica Brigade headquarters.  Do we have the right location there,

Page 12730

 1     generally, for the Rogatica Brigade headquarters?

 2        A.   Well, yes, roughly, that's the location.

 3        Q.   And we can see a scale of kilometres, but can you tell us,

 4     roughly, how long it would take to drive from down-town Rogatica to this

 5     Sjemec?

 6        A.   Less than 40 minutes.

 7        Q.   And we also see places in Borike noted on this same map.  Can you

 8     just give us a rough idea of how long it would take to drive from

 9     down-town Rogatica to the Borike Plateau?

10        A.   Rogatica to Borike is about 18-plus kilometres.  But in view of

11     the quality of the road, which is winding, it could take 30 minutes at

12     moderate speed.

13        Q.   I should have asked you:  At the time in July 1995, the road, how

14     long would it have taken back in those days?

15        A.   That's what I said.  I was talking about that period.  When I say

16     30 to 40 minutes, that's how it was in 1995.  And I always assume you are

17     interested in movement of military vehicles.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

19             Now, can we go to 65 ter 7308.

20             These are some photos that you saw the other day, that these

21     photos were taken within the last two years, so that these are not

22     wartime.

23             And if we could go to page 6 in e-court of 7308.

24             And, Mr. President, there's just a few documents, as you have

25     noted, will have stars next to them because they didn't have previous

Page 12731

 1     65 ter numbers.  I spoke to Mr. Gajic about these few, and he had no

 2     objections, so it shouldn't be a problem.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Leave is granted to add them to the 65 ter

 4     exhibit list.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Now, I've showed you this picture before.  Do you recognise this

 7     area?

 8        A.   This should be a part of this Sjemec field with those barns, but

 9     this is just a segment.  I believe there are at least three more barns.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Well, let's focus on this one, and

11     keep your eye on the red one.

12             And let's go to another image from a different angle.  It should

13     be at page 7.

14             And I would offer this into evidence.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter document 7308 shall be assigned

17     Exhibit P2170.  Thank you.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

19        Q.   Now, again we see a red barn and another barn.  Is that the same

20     red barn we saw in the previous photo?

21        A.   Probably.  But, if possible, could you show again the previous

22     slide?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Certainly.  Could we go back.  It's page 6.

24             I think we see some haystacks on the left side of the picture in

25     this.  It may be helpful.

Page 12732

 1             And let's go now to 7 and see if you can sort that out.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that's the same thing, the

 3     same buildings.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And let's go to page 5, and keep your

 5     eye on this middle -- well, the building on the left to see -- okay.

 6        Q.   Sorry, is that the same red building -- red-roofed building, as

 7     far as you know?

 8        A.   I suppose so.  The landscape is the same.  I think it is the same

 9     building.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And let's go to page 3.

11             All right, let's take a look at that for a minute, and then let's

12     go back to page 6 to see if you can connect the two.

13             So if we can go back to page 6.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's part of the same complex,

15     the same group of buildings.  It's the one in the middle.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I'm told these all have the same 65 ter

17     numbers, so I'm maybe getting us mixed up, but I want all the ones into

18     evidence so far.  So I apologise for that mix-up.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  All together, they are seven photographs, I take

20     it, from your list.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have actually -- yes, we might as well offer

22     all seven, yes.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we see the remaining photographs?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  In fact, I wanted to go to page 3.

25        Q.   Okay.  Is that the one you think is the middle building?

Page 12733

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to page 4.

 3        Q.   Which one would that be?

 4        A.   It's one of the three we saw in the previous picture.  On the

 5     picture where we see three of them, it's the last one in the background,

 6     the most distant one.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right, thank you for that.  So those are the

 8     main ones I wanted to focus us on, but let's go to -- let's see page 2 as

 9     well.

10        Q.   Can you tell where that fits into the group?

11        A.   Well, this could be the third building.  That is the most distant

12     one on the panorama shot, but shot from a different side.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go, finally, to page 1.

14        Q.   So just describe this to us, if it looks familiar.

15        A.   The same thing, only the picture was taken from the main road

16     towards Visegrad; that is, the camera was facing east.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Then if I could offer all of those.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They all will be received as Exhibit P2170.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, Mr. Carkic, I'm going to show you this

20     aerial image, this black-and-white aerial image which was actually taken

21     on the 24th of August, 1995, of this.  But I want to first take all our

22     eyes back to this exhibit, page 7, the one we were just at, the

23     photograph of the barn on page 7.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now, we see in the foreground of the picture it looks like

25     a hardtop.  Do you know, is that the main road in the area?  --

Page 12734

 1        A.   Yes, it's the regional road Rogatica-Visegrad, going via Sjemec.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if I could call everyone's attention to it,

 3     we see what I would call a dirt road that goes up by those haystacks,

 4     seven haystacks, I believe, and winds around the red building.  Could we

 5     blow that up once so we can get a better look at that dirt road.

 6             Okay, there we see the haystacks, seven, the dirt road that winds

 7     around to the right and then curves over to the left of the long red

 8     building.

 9             So keeping that in mind, can we go to 65 ter 7309.

10             And if we could blow that up just a bit more.

11        Q.   Now, you had a chance to look at this a while back.  Does this

12     look familiar to you?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   And what is this?

15        A.   This is the location of these buildings, these barns that we're

16     talking about.  And you can see the foundations of three other buildings.

17     I didn't know that they were just foundations, but I was thinking of the

18     copy of the cadastral plan, the blueprint.  So it's the entire area.  I

19     didn't go out into the field, and I didn't know what the condition of the

20     buildings was, but we were dealing with the question of ownership of the

21     land where the buildings are, and issuing permits for their regular use.

22     So when I said that there were several buildings, I meant also the

23     remains, the foundations, too.

24        Q.   All right.  Can you take a pen - I'll show how this works - and

25     just put a "1" by the main road, the main asphalt road that goes through

Page 12735

 1     this area?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the Court Usher.  Just

 3     wait a moment, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, thank you.

 6        Q.   Now, in concentrating a bit, from the photograph we saw with the

 7     red-roofed building with the dirt road that swung around it, do you see

 8     the dirt road in this picture that we saw in the photograph number --

 9     from page 6?  And you can go back to that, if that will help, too.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not possible.  We will lose the marking.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Janet just reminded me of that.  But we can start

12     over again without much problem, if you want to go back.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should clearly indicate which part of the

14     aerial photograph should be marked by the witness.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   If you see the -- if you see that dirt road that went around that

17     red-roofed building, can you mark that with a "2"?

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   And I don't know if you can tell, but if we look closely above

20     your "2," it looks like three little dots that are roughly in the same

21     place as the seven haystacks.  Can you make out what those three dots

22     might be?

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, you gave the answer already.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I'm just asking can he confirm that.  It's

25     not meant to be --

Page 12736

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is different.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, yeah, I mean, obviously it's not meant to

 3     be a trick question.

 4             In fact, let me just offer that into evidence, and then we'll

 5     blow it up a little bit.  I think it will make more sense.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The aerial photograph with the markings will be

 7     received as an exhibit.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter document 7309, marked by the witness in

 9     court, shall be assigned Exhibit P2171.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I hope it was saved.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could just keep the same photograph,

12     but without the markings, so that we can blow it up a bit.

13             Okay.  I don't know --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would it be helpful to blow up the upper part of

15     this photograph?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I think blowing it up would maybe give us a

17     little better picture.

18        Q.   It's not a big issue, but can you make out -- we can now see that

19     there's three little dots on the right side of the dirt road, and you

20     were back there in July.  Were they -- do you know, were they harvesting

21     hay and having haystacks in the same area, if you remember, back in July

22     of 1995?

23        A.   I wasn't at this place in July 1995.  I was there in December

24     1992.  I don't know if they were gathering hay.  But if you're looking

25     for an answer as to what I think these three dots are, I think that they

Page 12737

 1     are haystacks.

 2        Q.   Okay.  From your -- from your view of these photographs and this

 3     photograph, if you can, can you mark number 1 on this photograph where

 4     the red building was?  Which one is the red building, if any one in this

 5     photograph, the red-roofed building?

 6        A.   The building from the photo would lead me to conclude that this

 7     is a building that is touching upon this forest-path, unclassified,

 8     uncategorised road.  What is confusing to me, though, is the colour of

 9     the roof, because you can see that the other building is covered with

10     roof tiles, orange roof tiles, whereas this one does not indicate in any

11     way that it is covered with roof tiles, but that it's covered by plates.

12     So I'm not sure that I could mark that with a number, because I'm really

13     in doubt because of the roof colour.

14        Q.   Okay.  But just so you know, this is a black-and-white

15     photograph, taken from a very great distance, if that helps.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The difference is the time.  As you indicated,

17     Mr. McCloskey, the photographs -- the seven photographs were taken two

18     or -- some years ago, but not at the relevant time.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct.  So those are the three things

20     you should think of.  This is a black-and-white photograph, taken from a

21     great distance, and it's -- the photographs you saw were within the last

22     two years.  This is August 1995, so many years before those photographs.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             If you would like the witness to recognise something, then he

Page 12738

 1     needs to be told that these are not photographs; these are aerial

 2     photographs.  So I don't know why the witness is being asked to recognise

 3     something before telling him how the image was created, because he's

 4     saying that he cannot recognise things from this perspective because he's

 5     not clear about the roof.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, this is an aerial photograph, as the

 7     Prosecution told us.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   So, Mr. Carkic, knowing those things, can you help us?  Are

10     you -- this structure that's next to this dirt road, can you make any

11     conclusion on whether it's the same structure or in the same place as the

12     structure that we saw in the more modern photograph?

13        A.   I will try to explain another dilemma that I have.

14             The roof-colour dilemma, that stays, because I don't know --

15     I think it's a serious question, because I am supposed to leave my

16     markings on this image.  The roof colour is one dilemma, and the second

17     one is the fact or my assumption that this is an aerial photograph, that

18     it was made from an AWACS plane, and that it is a colour photograph.  I

19     would not agree that it's a black-and-white photograph, because you can

20     see hues of the ground, you can see shadows, you can see the nuances of

21     sunny areas.  You can even perceive the colour of the hay.  Since I am

22     fond of cartography, I think that this is a pale-colour image.

23             So then I go back to my first initial dilemma.  Perhaps by its

24     position, that is the structure with the red roof, but -- that one does

25     have a red roof, and this one has some kind of light white roof.  I

Page 12739

 1     assume that it's some kind of board, asbestos board.

 2        Q.   Can you make an "A" on the building you're talking about?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Court Usher could assist, please.  It doesn't

 4     work.

 5             Please put an "A" where you wanted to put it.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the witness is

10     unable to recognise the structures and their identity in relation to the

11     previous photograph, perhaps it would be a good thing if the Prosecutor

12     would ask the witness if that is the location where those structures can

13     be found, and perhaps they underwent some changes after 15 or 20 years.

14     Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is a good proposal, Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that was my last question.  I said -- I asked

17     him, did he recognise this building from the other photograph or was it

18     in the same place as the building in the other photograph, and then he

19     marked it.  So I --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering this marked photograph?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Not quite yet, but I will.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

23             Sir, just to shorten this lengthy experience, is this the same

24     location where you have seen the photographs with the several buildings,

25     one of them with a red roof?  Is this the same location you see on this

Page 12740

 1     aerial photograph?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that is the same

 3     location.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 5             Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Now, one thing we haven't talked about yet is this little cluster

 8     of what appear to be buildings by the main road.  And can you tell us --

 9     in the bottom middle of this picture, can you tell us what those

10     buildings are?

11        A.   This is the geographical centre of the Sjemec village.  These are

12     commercial, economic, industrial buildings, for the most part.  And a

13     long time ago, there was a local community office of the Sjemec community

14     there, with a small conference hall, a shop, and auxiliary buildings.

15        Q.   But in July/August 1995, do you know what any of these buildings

16     were used for?

17        A.   They were used in 1992 because a unit was located there.  The

18     unit was part of our brigade.  And that location was used until spring

19     1993, perhaps.  After that, I think that it was not used again for

20     military purposes.

21        Q.   Okay.  Could you circle that cluster of buildings that you have

22     just been referring to so we know which ones were to refer to your last

23     few answers?

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   And I would -- let's mark that with a "B", if we could, that

Page 12741

 1     circle.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer that image into evidence,

 4     Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7309, marked by the

 7     witness for the second time, shall be assigned Exhibit P2172.  Thank you.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Could we go back to the map book, but

 9     this time page 16 in e-court.

10        Q.   This, Mr. Carkic, is a part of a map.  I think you'll recall

11     seeing it in the last -- when we met briefly.

12             Can we get the bottom of that.  Yes, that's the part.  And could

13     we blow that up a little bit more, yes, getting both those.

14             Now, you've mentioned briefly the Borike Hotel.  Can you -- again

15     with your marker, can you put an "H" where you recall the Borike Hotel

16     being back in July of 1995 that you referred to already in your

17     testimony?

18        A.   The framed name "Borike Villa" is actually covering the

19     topographical marker of the hotel.

20        Q.   Okay.  If you can just put an arrow, then, where you think the

21     location of the hotel would be, and then just put an "H" by the end of

22     the arrow.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Are you familiar with this thing that we've marked as the

25     Borike Villa?

Page 12742

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And can you just briefly explain what that is?

 3        A.   This is a pre-war building belonging to Dzemal Bijedic.  It's a

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovinian politician who -- and the facility later will become

 5     the property of the firm that I was working for, the

 6     Standard Construction Company in Rogatica.  I was there.  I stayed there

 7     several times; once before the war, once during the war, and maybe one --

 8     once or twice during the war.  And then after the war, once I stayed at

 9     that building.

10        Q.   Was there a telephone at the villa during the war?

11        A.   If I remember correctly, there was, yes.

12        Q.   And did it work during the war?

13        A.   The building was not used very much.  As I said, the Borike Hotel

14     was the brigade's forward command post.

15        Q.   But do you know if the telephone at the villa worked during the

16     war.

17        A.   I don't remember.

18        Q.   All right.  And you can see, in the top of this, it's been marked

19     "Borike IKM" in that little area of Sjeversko.  Can you -- I think you

20     clarified that for us previously, but, of course, no one knows -- no one

21     has heard you say that.  So can you tell us what, if anything, was at the

22     school in Sjeversko that we've marked "Borike IKM"?

23        A.   It was the regional elementary school there in Sjeversko.  So it

24     wasn't the Borike Forward Command Post, but it was the forward command

25     post of one of our battalions.

Page 12743

 1        Q.   Do you remember which one?

 2        A.   The 3rd.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I would offer this portion of the map

 4     into evidence.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This marked map will be received as an exhibit.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, exhibit number --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is happening with your microphone.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It is working now, Your Honour.

 9             Exhibit P104, page 16, marked by the witness in court, shall be

10     assigned Exhibit P2173.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, carry on, please.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

13             Could we have Exhibit --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment.

15             Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can see, on page 46,

17     lines 22 to 23, that it says "forward command post of one of our

18     battalions."  I believe that the witness said that it was the command

19     post, and not forward command post.  I would just like to have that

20     clarified with the witness, please.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I heard "Borike Forward Command Post" by

22     interpretation, but again I would like to ask the witness.

23             Can you tell us -- we saw on the map "Borike IKM," and you

24     indicated -- and then you said it was the regional elementary school

25     there in Sjeversko.  Which forward command post or command post was there

Page 12744

 1     at the time?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The school at Sjeversko was the

 3     command post of the 3rd Battalion.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to 65 ter 5441.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question for the witness.

 8             JUDGE NYAMBE:  What's the difference between a command post and a

 9     forward command post?  Thank you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A command post, according to

11     military rules, is usually located within the area of responsibility of a

12     certain unit where the location is the most favourable, from a

13     topographical, geographical, and military aspect, in the sense of

14     developing the actual command post and in the sense of having it at an

15     equal distance from the units that are out in the field.  It would

16     usually be placed in some central location.

17             Forward command posts are places in the field closer to the

18     front-line, closer to those positions that could be neurotic during

19     combat -- during conduct of combat.

20             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Mr. Carkic, do you recognise this building on the screen?

24        A.   Borike Hotel.

25        Q.   And is that the one you were talking about earlier?

Page 12745

 1        A.   I mentioned Borike Hotel as the forward command post of the

 2     brigade.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And could we go to P14 -- I offer

 4     this into evidence.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 5441 shall be

 7     assigned Exhibit P2174.  Thank you.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Carkic, if a document had "Borike IKM" from this

10     time-period, what IKM would that -- what location would that be?

11        A.   On the map that you showed me a minute ago, there is a mistake

12     where it says "IKM Borike" and it is marked at the Sjeversko location.

13     Therefore, IKM Borike was the brigade's command post, and it was situated

14     in Borike Hotel.  Sjeversko was the command post of the 3rd Battalion.

15        Q.   Thank you.  But if the document had the address coming from the

16     Borike IKM, the 65th Protection Regiment, Borike IKM, what location would

17     that have been back in July of 1995?

18        A.   I believe that referred to Boksanica Pass on Mountain Boksanica.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Now can we go to P1433.

20        Q.   Here we have a shot in the winter-time.  Do you recognise that

21     building?

22        A.   That's the Borike Villa.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that into evidence.

24             It's already in, thanks.

25             All right.  And if we could go to a short video-clip.  It's

Page 12746

 1     Exhibit P740, at 45:45 through 46:07.  This should be from 26 July.

 2             This is a -- should be a clip that you were shown with

 3     Mr. Elderkin.

 4        Q.   And just so we know what we're looking at:  Do you remember the

 5     short clip that Mr. Elderkin showed you, and I think you identified

 6     yourself in it?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Can you give us just a little preview?  What are you doing on

 9     this video, when we get to it, if you remember?

10        A.   That was the time when first buses arrived that were used to

11     evacuate the population of Zepa.  I was on the first bus, and I

12     personally acted there in providing security for the evacuation all the

13     way to Mount Boksanica.  After that, I believe that in operational terms,

14     the Transport Department of the Drina Corps carried out the evacuation

15     towards Kladanj and Sarajevo.  The column was split in two.  Those who

16     wanted to go to Sarajevo would go to the left from the junction

17     Podromanija, and those who wanted to go to Kladanj would go right towards

18     Han Pijesak and Vlasenica.  And I escorted these columns.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Could we -- could we play this?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it possible to enlarge it?  It's quite small.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I hope so.  Could we fill the whole screen?

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Can you tell us where this area is, where the buses -- where this

25     bus is?

Page 12747

 1        A.   This is the Boksanica Pass.

 2        Q.   And do you recognise anyone in this photo?

 3        A.   The person on the left is General Mladic and a man from his

 4     escort.  I don't know the third person in the background, but the person

 5     in the foreground is me.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And let's finish playing it.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

 9        Q.   Now, you've gone off this picture, and we're at -- oh, we can't

10     see where you're at because it's blown up, but I can describe a very

11     distinctive fellow in a beret saluting.  Can you -- do you know who the

12     person in the beret saluting is at -- this is 00:46:03.6.  He's no longer

13     saluting.

14        A.   He's saluting to General Mladic.

15        Q.   Yes.  Do you know that person's name with the beret?

16        A.   I don't remember his name, but I think that he's a lieutenant or

17     second lieutenant by the name of Matic.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's just play it out to the end.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right, that's it.

21        Q.   Did you see -- after that bus and others arrive, did you ever see

22     General Mladic get on any of those buses?

23        A.   I didn't see that, but I saw video-clips in which he appears and

24     I heard stories that he nearly went into each bus and addressed the

25     people who agreed to be evacuated.

Page 12748

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And I just want to show you a couple

 2     of buses that he went on.  And he went on several and greeted the people,

 3     but I just want to ask you about a couple and see if you know anything

 4     about it.

 5             So this is the same exhibit, starting at -- so it's 740, but we

 6     can see it's starting at 53:04.0.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   Okay.  And there's video of General Mladic getting on many buses,

10     and many of the buses he didn't say anything like we saw this.  So

11     there's two situations where he noted able-bodied men on the bus and

12     said, I'm giving you your life as a gift.

13             While you were at Boksanica, around those officers in that area,

14     did you hear any discussion about the intentions of the officers or the

15     command regarding the able-bodied men?

16        A.   While I was at Boksanica, and I would like to remind you of what

17     I already said, and that is that I went there sporadically, I was not

18     present when negotiations were being conducted between representatives of

19     the Army of Republika Srpska and representatives of the Zepa forces.  I

20     was present, but not at the very check-point when General Smith came and

21     talked to General Mladic.  However, what I know and what I heard and what

22     I saw was that the intention was to have the evacuation run as smoothly

23     as possible, without any incidents, without any situations that might

24     hamper the relocation of the population or the evacuation.  I think that

25     they used the term "evacuation."  And it was not being done by buses

Page 12749

 1     only.  UNPROFOR vehicles were used as well.  And that is how all this was

 2     referred to as "evacuation."

 3             What I know about General Tolimir, I know that he did not allow

 4     for any alternatives or variants.  And I think I said in my statement

 5     that at the time, two of our men, elderly men, were in captivity, and we

 6     were keen to release them.  They were imprisoned in Gorazde.  At one

 7     point, not expecting this kind of reaction from General Tolimir, I

 8     addressed him personally and asked him if there was any possibility for

 9     an attempt at an ad hoc exchange so that we can get back these two men of

10     ours.  The general refused this blatantly, and I gave up on any further

11     attempts to discuss this topic either with him or with anyone else.

12             What I know for sure is that everything was aimed at having the

13     evacuation going without any problems, and that is, among other things,

14     why the UN forces were involved as well.

15        Q.   Were you aware of Mladic looking at able-bodied men and saying,

16     I'm giving you your life as a gift?  Were you aware of that?  And if you

17     are, did it cause any problems among the able-bodied men?

18        A.   I saw this footage many years after the one that you just played

19     to me.  Therefore, I was not there when General Mladic addressed these

20     people, and, therefore, I don't have any first-hand knowledge.  I was

21     outside, I was not in the vehicle.  As I said, I saw this footage later

22     on, on the internet.  This is the approach that he took, and I'm not

23     willing to comment on it.  The fact is that there were able-bodied men on

24     board the buses; not too many of them, but there were some.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, could --

Page 12750

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             I did not want to react at this kind of leading questions.  This

 4     witness cannot know what the people who were addressed by General Mladic

 5     were feeling.  He can only speculate about what their emotions were.  I

 6     kindly ask that this witness be asked only about issues that he knows and

 7     has personal knowledge.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is, in fact, correct, but the question of

 9     Mr. McCloskey was quite different.  He said:

10             "Did the comment of General Mladic, did it cause any problems

11     among the able-bodied men?"

12             He was asking for the witness's knowledge and not about his

13     impression of the feeling of the people.

14             Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             Could we go briefly into private session?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

18                           [Private session]

19     (redacted)

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21     (redacted)

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Page 12751

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10     (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

13     you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we go to Exhibit P1434.  This is a 30

16     July 1995 report.

17             And for the convenience of the witness, I've got a -- it's a

18     multi-page report, so it might be easier for him to look it over with the

19     four pages.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It may be given to the witness.

21             I assume this is a hard copy of this document.  Is that correct?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, yes, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic had the opportunity to look at it.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And we -- for everyone, we see that it's

25     from the Command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, the

Page 12752

 1     Rogatica Brigade, from the Organ for Security and Intelligence, on

 2     30 July 1995, to the Main Staff Sector for Intel and Security, to the

 3     Command of the Drina Corps Security Department.  It's entitled

 4     "Information about Prisoners of War in the Holding Centre in Rogatica."

 5             And if we go to the last page, it's page 6 in the English.  I'm

 6     afraid I'm not sure which it is in the B/C/S.  I'm sorry.  Yes, thank

 7     you, you've got it.

 8             We see that it's ending with a discussion of some money that

 9     General Tolimir is insisting be investigated, and it says --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please don't touch your microphone

11     with your paper, or perhaps it was the witness.  I don't know.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'll try not to.  This is a new device for me,

13     and I'll be careful.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps it was the witness who touched the

15     microphone with his paper.

16             Please carry on.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   And then it says at the end:

19             "By authorisation from General Tolimir."

20             And then:

21             "Chief of Intel and Security, Captain Zoran Carkic."

22             And this is a listing of prisoners, I'm sure you'll agree with

23     me, at the Rogatica Prison.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go to page 3 in the English.  And

25     in the B/C/S, we'll want -- it's number 45.  Perfect, thank you.  You've

Page 12753

 1     got that?

 2        Q.   So, Mr. Carkic, this is a document that went out under your name;

 3     correct?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, sir.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Miodrag Stojanovic, legal

 7     representative of Mr. Carkic.

 8             I think that we are embarking upon the questions that Mr. Carkic

 9     asked me to ask the Trial Chamber to have them asked in private session,

10     because we are about to hear things that causes concern in him about the

11     safety of himself and his family.  And I would kindly ask the

12     Trial Chamber to deliver a ruling on this point.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15     (redacted)

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Page 12754











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23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

25     you.

Page 12757

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We must have our second break now.  And we will

 2     resume at 1.00, and then we will continue your interrogation.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we continue, we turn into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

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Page 12758











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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Tomorrow, we will continue at 9.00 in this

25     courtroom because of the technical problems in Courtroom III, although we

Page 12775

 1     have to state this courtroom has also some technical problems which were

 2     resolved during our session.

 3             You may continue your examination-in-chief, but try to be as

 4     brief as possible, and then we will see how the cross-examination will go

 5     on.

 6             I have to tell you that I, personally, am not available during

 7     the first session tomorrow morning.  I will be back during the second

 8     session, due to another urgent appointment, and the Chamber has decided

 9     to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis tomorrow during the first session.

10             We adjourn, and resume tomorrow morning in this courtroom at

11     9.00.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of

15                           April, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.