Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12991

 1                           Tuesday, 19 April 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom, to

 6     those who are listening and watching the procedure.

 7             The witness should be brought in, please.

 8             Just for the record, the Chamber is sitting with two Judges

 9     pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11                           WITNESS:  MILENKO TODOROVIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  Please sit down.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Welcome back to the courtroom.  I have to remind

16     you that the affirmation to tell the truth you made at the beginning of

17     your testimony yesterday still applies.  Mr. Vanderpuye has more

18     questions for you.

19             Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you,

21     Your Honours; good morning, everyone.

22                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:  [Continued]

23        Q.   And good morning to you, Colonel.  I wanted to clarify something

24     before we move on in the record.  Yesterday, I have it at page 67 in the

25     transcript, you were commenting on how long a period had elapsed between

Page 12992

 1     the time you received this direction to prepare the Batkovic prison and

 2     the time it was that you called General Tolimir because the prisoners

 3     hadn't arrived, and in lines 18 through 20 of the transcript, your

 4     recorded as having said in regards to our discussion about this:

 5              "That is why I conclude that it was more than 24 hours.  I'm not

 6     saying this because I'm certain it was 30 hours."  And then it says

 7     "though," t-h-o-u-g-h, "or five days."

 8             I just want to clarify with you.  Did you actually ever say "five

 9     days" in that context?

10        A.   I don't have perfect memory, but when I was explaining it, I was

11     trying to make a point that it could not have been less than 24 hours.  I

12     explained that some work had already been done in terms of emptying the

13     building and all the wheat taken out.  It could not have been done in

14     less than 24 hours.  It took some time for the task to be conveyed and

15     those responsible at the farm to organise themselves.  It all needed at

16     least 24 hours or more, so I made a reference to a few days.  In our

17     language, it could mean two, three, or up to five days.  I don't know if

18     I said five days exactly, but in any case, several days and more than 24

19     hours.

20        Q.   I'm glad I asked you that, and the reason is because in your

21     interview you haven't mentioned anything more than 48 hours.  Would you

22     agree that that's the case?

23        A.   I repeat, I don't have a perfect memory of what I said.  I didn't

24     come with any answers prepared beforehand.  I provide honest answers, and

25     I'm trying as best as I can to recall as many details as possible.

Page 12993

 1             It was more than 24 hours.  Whether it was two, three days, or

 2     even five days, that is something I can't tell you from this position.

 3        Q.   I appreciate that, but my question is whether during the course

 4     of your interview on the 2nd of February, 2010, or the 3rd of February,

 5     2010, you ever mentioned that the period of time between when you

 6     received this task and when you called General Tolimir with respect to

 7     it, that you never mentioned that it was anything more than 48 hours.

 8     Would you agree that that's the case?  I'm not asking you about your

 9     present recollection of the events.  I'm asking about what's in your

10     statement that you acknowledged and stood by yesterday.

11        A.   I read the transcript that was given to me of my interview of the

12     2nd of February, 2010, although not in detail.  I didn't study it in

13     detail intentionally so as not to provide identical answers, so as to

14     appear that I have prepared myself or that I was prepared by someone else

15     as to what I would say or change.  That is why I'm trying to speak

16     spontaneously and responsibly, because I'm trying to recall as many

17     details as possible in answers to your questions.

18             I accept that in the interview I may have mentioned the figures

19     of 24 or 48 hours.  Much as I'm saying now, it was more than one day and

20     up to a few days.  Forty-eight hours is two days.  In our language it can

21     frequently be within a given span that need not translate accurately into

22     different languages.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I think you receive the answer I

24     think now two or three times.  There is no need for repetition, I think.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I do want to advise

Page 12994

 1     the Court that in light of the witness's answers I will be tendering that

 2     transcript because I think it is important for the Court to see what it

 3     is the witness has testified to -- or, rather, has stated previously in

 4     contrast to what the witness is testifying to before the Trial Chamber,

 5     particularly since the witness now claims that he doesn't have a present

 6     recollection of the statement itself as opposed to the events.  That's

 7     the reason why I've put the questions to him, and I think the record is

 8     clear on that.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead, please.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:

11        Q.   Yesterday we left off and I was asking you about the Vanikov Mlin

12     prison.  Do you remember that, Colonel?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And in particular, I asked you whether it was the case, or not,

15     if members of the Main Staff security administration brought prisoners to

16     that facility.  Do you remember that?

17        A.   I remember -- well, I can't be specific.  I think I said

18     yesterday that it could have been on the 12th or the 13th.  In any case,

19     a few days following the fall of Srebrenica.  A certain number of Army of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina members, probably from the Srebrenica area, were

21     brought in by the intelligence organs of the security administration of

22     the Main Staff.  They brought them in, and they conducted interviews with

23     them in Bijeljina in Vanikov Mlin.

24        Q.   How many people do you recall were brought to that facility by

25     the Main Staff security administration to be interviewed or questioned?

Page 12995

 1        A.   It's not a matter of my recollection.  I didn't know then, and I

 2     don't know now, since the superior command was not under an obligation to

 3     inform me of either the numbers of those people or the contents of their

 4     interviews.  I simply say that a number of them was brought in, but I

 5     don't know anything more specific than that.  I remember a single name of

 6     a person from that group for other reasons, but you have to put me a

 7     question if you need to know why and who that person was.

 8        Q.   I'll put that question to you in a moment, but how many people do

 9     you recall roughly?  Was it a large number of people?  Forty, 50 people?

10     Ten or 12 people?  Can you give us an approximation to the best of your

11     recollection?

12        A.   Well, the number was not great.  I don't know what to say

13     exactly.  Ten, 12, 13.  These were human beings, not objects.  Therefore,

14     I don't want to speculate with numbers.  There weren't that many.

15     Perhaps around ten, conditionally speaking.  I don't know exactly.

16     Since -- since we're discussing this topic, I suppose they were, in a

17     way, in agreement with being interviewed.  You know what the situation

18     must have been like.  If you are in dire straits, you may well consent to

19     giving an interview just to get out of trouble.  I don't know what was

20     going on exactly.

21             I suppose -- or, rather, I'm relatively certain that in the

22     log-book of the detention unit at Vanikov Mlin, there must be the names

23     of those held there, and if needed, it could be checked with the prison

24     warden who is still alive, I believe.

25        Q.   All right.  Who from the Main Staff brought these prisoners to

Page 12996

 1     that facility to be interviewed?  Who from the security administration of

 2     the Main Staff escorted these prisoners or interviewed them?

 3        A.   It's a difficult question.  That is difficult to answer.  Who

 4     brought them in?  I don't know, not for sure, given that some members of

 5     the intelligence organ were also in Bijeljina in their intelligence

 6     sub-centre.  They acted as hosts, so to speak for -- for those

 7     interviews.  It was announced to them, and they were included in the

 8     whole thing.  I don't know who in the chain was responsible for bringing

 9     those people in and who organised the interviews.

10             At that time, as well as at other times, I had a number of my own

11     tasks to tackle, so I didn't get involved if it wasn't necessary.  The

12     Drina Corps command had two forward points in Brcko and Majevica.  I had

13     to go there daily, collect information, issue instructions.  I had to be

14     present there physically, and I was under an obligation to perform all

15     those tasks, although I had a very small number of staff.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Could I have 65 ter -- or, rather, P2176 in

17     e-court, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document in Serbian is quite

19     illegible.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have a hard copy of it --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The registrar just printed out a hard copy.  It

22     may be given to the witness.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:

24        Q.   Are you able to read the document now, Colonel?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, are you able to read the document now?  I'm

Page 12997

 1     asking you, Witness.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to make out the sense of

 3     the first two rows.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was not the question.  If you are able to

 5     read it.  Is it legible?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hardly.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Gajic.

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.

10             Mr. President, I think on the Prosecution list there is a 65 ter

11     document number 7321.  I believe that version of this same document is

12     quite legible.  Perhaps we could try placing that one on the screen.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It seems to be a bit better.  And perhaps the

14     registrar could print it and give a hard copy to the witness.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can read from the monitor too.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, thank you for your assistance.

17             Mr. Vanderpuye, carry on, please.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             If the witness can't read it, I have, I think, a legible copy in

20     B/C/S in my hand, so if that becomes a problem we should be able to go

21     forward.

22        Q.   In any event, Witness, you can see that this document is from the

23     Main Staff, from the sector for security and intelligence affairs, the

24     security administration, and is directed to the security department of

25     the Eastern Bosnia Corps.  That would be your department.  Isn't that

Page 12998

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.  The copy I have now is legible, and if I may, I'd like to

 3     go through it to jog my memory.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please answer first the question that

 5     Mr. Vanderpuye put to you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apologies.  I wasn't paying

 7     attention enough.  I was looking at the page, and I overheard the

 8     question.  Could you repeat.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:

11        Q.   It is directed to the security department, East Bosnia Corps.

12     That would be your department.  Is that right?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   In the body of this document -- well, first we should go -- you

15     can see on your page, if we go to the -- all right.  It's on the first

16     page in any event.  We can see this is signed by

17     Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara.  Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Are you familiar with Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara?

20        A.   I am, but I see something that is illogical on this document.  In

21     the heading it says the --

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... We can just go with the

23     questions first, and we'll get to your issues, okay?  If that's all

24     right.

25        A.   Yes, I know him.

Page 12999

 1        Q.   What was his position in 1995?

 2        A.   He was the chief of the security administration as part of the

 3     intelligence and security sector.

 4        Q.   Of the Main Staff?

 5        A.   Yes, of the Main Staff.

 6        Q.   And in this document we see a very specific reference to an

 7     individual code-named Atlantida.  Do you see that?

 8        A.   I can see it.

 9        Q.   In this document, it reads that:

10             "Since the current accommodation of Atlantida is not appropriate

11     and has raised public attention and in view of the fact that we need

12     Atlantida to point out possible directions and sources for further

13     collection of documents and in order to file criminal charges against

14     criminals, it is necessary to secretly transfer Atlantida in the night of

15     10 to 11 June," as it's recorded here, "1995 or some other suitable time

16     to the Mlin Military Prison in Bijeljina."

17             That would be the facility that we've been just talking about.

18     Isn't that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   That's the facility that's secured by members of the military

21     police battalion of the East Bosnia Corps over whom you had specialist

22     control; right?

23        A.   Yes, along professional lines.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 13000

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2     Specialist or professional control are different terms, and I'd kindly

 3     like to ask the Prosecutor to bear that in mind when putting questions.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   You can see further in this -- in the second paragraph of this

 7     document that it says:

 8             "Captain Carkic will make arrangements for this with the brigade

 9     commander, Major Rajko Kusic, and personally carry out the task by

10     notifying OB security organ of the East Bosnia Corps Chief

11     Colonel Todorovic about his arrival and will be -- and will in personal

12     contact explain our requests."

13             Do you see that?  Do you see that, Colonel?

14        A.   I can see that.  I am comparing the legible with the illegible

15     version.

16        Q.   Are you the Colonel --

17        A.   They are the same.

18        Q.   Are you the Colonel Todorovic that's referred to in this

19     document?

20        A.   Yes, I am.

21        Q.   Do you know who this Captain Carkic is who's referred to in this

22     document?

23        A.   I suppose it was someone from up there.  I can't remember his

24     face or name, but if he introduced himself to me at that time as

25     Captain Carkic, then I accepted him as such, especially because prior to

Page 13001

 1     his arrival I had received a telegram notifying me of that.  But either

 2     before that or after that, that name and rank didn't mean much to me

 3     because he wasn't from my unit.

 4             My task based on this was something I probably did through the

 5     garrison commander, and that was to provide accommodation for him and

 6     security.  That's the scope of my activities concerning this issue and

 7     the code-name Atlantis.  It probably referred to someone who was not from

 8     my unit.  Otherwise, I could probably recall a name or a person.  In any

 9     case, I don't know what Atlantida stands for, who the person in question

10     is.  It was my task to provide accommodation and to provide conditions

11     for the official work that had to be done, which is something I probably

12     did through the garrison commander.  I probably called him and told him

13     to provide an off -- an office, a space where someone would come in and

14     work once they arrived from the Main Staff.

15             There is an illogical matter, though, which might be a

16     typographical error.  It seems it was drafted on the 10th of August, but

17     it says that during the night between the 10th and the 11th of July -- or

18     June it was supposed to take place.  This doesn't make sense.  So it was

19     probably between the 10th and the 11th of August.  And there seems to be

20     something wrong with the signature.  It says "Sector for security and

21     intelligence."  The chief of that sector was General Tolimir and not

22     Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara.  He was only chief of the security

23     administration that was part of the sector.  It may be a formality, but I

24     don't know how important it is.

25        Q.   I appreciate that information, and in fact, the Trial Chamber has

Page 13002

 1     received information -- or evidence, I should say, concerning the date

 2     upon which Atlantida was transferred to the Mlin Military Prison that

 3     we've spoken about.

 4             Now, do you have information that the Atlantida that's referred

 5     to in this document was Colonel Avdo Palic, commander of the

 6     Zepa Brigade?

 7        A.   Of course, the subsequent sequence of events pointed toward that

 8     logical conclusion that the person in question may have been

 9     Colonel Avdo Palic.  I can explain if you wish.

10        Q.   Explain how it is that you know that Atlantida is Colonel Palic.

11        A.   I did not know, nor have I said that I know now, but that's a

12     logical inference I make, because after this date -- I don't remember

13     exactly which date it was.  You showed me a document in which that date

14     is mentioned.  During the night, that's when I learned his name,

15     Major Pecanac, Dragomir Pecanac or Dragoljub Pecanac, came to fetch

16     Colonel Palic.  He came from the security administration of the

17     Main Staff.  He arrived to take away Avdo Palic from the military

18     detention centre to Vanikov Mlin, to the Main Staff.

19             Since the warden of the military detention centre didn't know

20     Pecanac personally, Major Pecanac, it seems suspicious to him that

21     somebody should arrive in the middle of the night and take away a

22     prisoner, so that the prison warden, Milan Savic, was -- was in a -- in

23     an uncomfortable situation.

24             During that period, round about midnight or shortly after

25     midnight - certainly it was very late and I was asleep in bed - he called

Page 13003

 1     me up and asked me, "Buddy," he didn't even address me as Colonel, he

 2     said, "Buddy, I've got a problem."  And I asked him, "What kind of

 3     problem.  I'm sure it's a problem given the fact you're calling me at

 4     this hour."  And he said, "You know, the one who is in detention here,

 5     the VIP," he wouldn't say his name.  Although at the time as far as I

 6     remember, I didn't really know the name nor was I especially interested.

 7     He said, "Some major arrived.  He says his name is Pecanac and that he's

 8     from the security and intelligence administration of the Main Staff, and

 9     he wants to take him there, to the Main Staff."

10             And I asked him, "So what's the problem?  Is it -- is the person

11     there, prisoner?"  And he answered, "Yes, it's their prison."  And I

12     said, "So, what's the problem?"  And he answered, "The problem is that he

13     doesn't want to sign" that he took over the detained person, Avdo Palic,

14     at such and such an hour.  And I said, "Of course you must do it, because

15     it's not a glass of water that you can just give anybody without

16     registering it."  And he says, "Yes.  That's what I told him, but he

17     won't do it.  He's standing right next to me.  Maybe you want to talk to

18     him."  And he gave me Major Pecanac on the phone.  I asked him, "Well,

19     Pecko," I called him that because we knew each other personally.  "What's

20     the problem, Pecko?"  And then he started beating about the bush.  I

21     said, "There's nothing to discuss.  Sign in the log-book if you want to

22     take the person with you and if you've come in an official capacity.  If

23     not, come again tomorrow during office hours and now go back where you

24     came from.  All right?"

25             And after 10 or 15 minutes he either called me up again or

Page 13004

 1     possibly Savic told me right away that he had signed and taken Avdo Palic

 2     with him.  So that I suppose -- or, rather, it's a logical inference I

 3     make that the person whose code-name was Atlantida was, in fact,

 4     Avdo Palic.  If he was taken away after the 10th of August, and it

 5     probably is, because we saw the dates in that document.

 6        Q.   I want to show you a document.  It's 65 ter 7330.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, this is one of these documents

 8     that didn't have a 65 ter number.  It bears directly on the witness's

 9     current testimony as well.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I raise the matter that we have two different

11     versions of the same document just in front of us.  That was P1267 and

12     65 ter 7231.  The second one was better legible.  Perhaps you may replace

13     the illegible by the better one, the 65 ter document, and then it will be

14     in evidence with a P number.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  That's a

16     good idea.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The document that I want to show this witness

19     now, Mr. President, is directly related to his testimony concerning the

20     pick-up, as it were, of Colonel Palic by Captain Pecanac.  I think it's

21     important for the Trial Chamber to receive it.  I don't know whether or

22     not General Tolimir has an objection to it.  I've alerted them,

23     obviously, to the potential use of this document, and so far I've heard

24     no objection with respect to it.

25        Q.   Can you see the document in front of you, Colonel?

Page 13005

 1        A.   Yes, I can see it.  Need I say anything about it?

 2        Q.   Not just yet, but it is entitled "Bijeljina garrison command,

 3     garrison prison"; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.  If you hadn't said so yourself, I would have pointed that

 5     out, because in my evidence yesterday, I said that the garrison command

 6     also had a garrison detention centre which is in an organisation unit of

 7     the corps command, and it doesn't have much to do with my professional

 8     line of business.

 9        Q.   The document itself appears to be a receipt.  It says "Receipt"

10     on it, and it says:

11             "On the exclusion of the detainees on the 5th of September 1995

12     at 0100 hours for the needs of the," as it's translated, "organisation

13     intelligence sector of the VRS Main Staff for the investigation."

14             And then it says:

15             "Palic Avdo, prisoner of war.

16             "Transferred following the order of Tomic Draga, officer on duty

17     of the Eastern Bosnia Corps intelligence organ."

18             Now, Tomic Draga would be one of your assistants, wouldn't he?

19        A.   Yes, but let me tell you, this is no exclusion of any kind.  This

20     form was printed by the people at the time, and they weren't very versed

21     in linguistical things.  Actually, it's a receipt for prisoners handed

22     over from the prison.  So it's a receipt that some person is no longer in

23     prison but has been taken away somewhere else.  So the word "exclusion"

24     is not the best here.  And as I said, this was made for the needs of the

25     sector of the security and intelligence of the Main Staff of the VRS.

Page 13006

 1             This prison warden, Milan Savic, first talked to my duty officer,

 2     because in my department there were duty shifts round the clock.  So he

 3     talked to the duty officer, and the duty officer checked whether Pecanac

 4     had really come to fetch him.  He called up the duty officer at the

 5     Main Staff and told Savic, "Hand him over to Pecanac," or, "Let Pecanac

 6     take him over and take him away, because he really is a man from the Main

 7     Staff."  But Milan Savic is elderly man, and that is why he was in that

 8     position.  I explained to you how we selected the police officers both

 9     for Batkovic and for the military detention centre.  He was very

10     responsible, and he knew me personally.  So he wanted to make sure, and

11     therefore he asked me, he double-checked with me whether Pecanac was

12     really an authorised person so as to avoid making a mistake - Savic, I

13     mean - for which he could be held accountable.  That's why I stepped in

14     and that's why I was summoned by the investigative magistrate of the BiH

15     court concerning this, and I gave the same answers that I'm giving now.

16             In principle, this could have taken place without any involvement

17     of mine, but the duty officer wanted to check whether that Pecanac was

18     really authorised to take over the prisoner, and the prison warden wanted

19     to verify whether he really could hand the prisoner over, and the problem

20     arose when Pecanac refused to sign.  And then Savic chose to call me up

21     and ask for advice what he should do so that he wouldn't be left hanging

22     and be held accountable some day.

23        Q.   I appreciate that answer, Colonel.  Does this document, first of

24     all, record the events that you've just testified to about how

25     Captain Pecanac came to pick up or retrieve Avdo Palic from the

Page 13007

 1     Vanikov Mlin prison?  Is that what's essentially reflected in this

 2     document?

 3        A.   Yes.  This document speaks about a correct procedure.  Pecanac

 4     turned up at the gate of the military detention centre and introduced

 5     himself as an authorised official of the intelligence and security sector

 6     of the Main Staff and that he had arrived to take over Mr. Avdo Palic for

 7     subsequent treatment.  Because the prison warden didn't know him

 8     personally, he wanted to make sure, since this was a member of the

 9     security service, called up the duty officer of the security department

10     whose chief I was.

11        Q.   We've got that.  I just want to know if it's talking about the

12     same event that you're talking about, that this document relates to the

13     that event, that's all.

14        A.   What's talking about?  I don't understand.

15        Q.   Does this document with the signature of Pecanac and the

16     signature of Savic relate to the event that you're testifying about?

17        A.   Yes, it does, but when I gave a statement to the investigative

18     magistrate of the BiH court, I was shown another type of document that

19     had a different title.  It didn't -- it wasn't titled "Receipt".

20     Actually, the title was inadequate, as if some objects had been handed

21     over, not persons.  That's the type of document I was shown in Bijeljina

22     concerning the retrieval of Mr. Palic from military detention.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Mr. President, I'd like to tender

24     this document before I forget to do so.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before it will be received, I would like to put a

Page 13008

 1     question to the witness.

 2             Sir, you said Pecanac refused to sign this document.  Why did he

 3     refuse to sign?  Did he give you any reason for that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he didn't.  And after talking

 5     to me, when the prison warden Milan Savic gave me Pecanac on the phone

 6     and wanted me to explain to him, and it was after midnight, so they had

 7     awoken me from deep sleep, and I asked Pecanac, "What's going on?  Why

 8     don't you sign?"  And then he started, "Well, you know ... "

 9             And then I got angry and said, "Okay, if you don't want to sign,

10     get out of here and come back some other time."  And he said, "Okay,

11     okay."  And that was the end of it.  Why he initially didn't want to

12     sign, well, you should ask him.  Eventually he did so.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  This document will be received as an

14     exhibit.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7330 shall be

16     assigned Exhibit Number P2182.  Thank you.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:

18        Q.   You referred a little bit earlier to Captain Pecanac as Pecko,

19     and I think you indicated that you knew him.  Can you tell us, if you

20     know, what was his full name and what his position was in 1995?

21        A.    His first --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  His full name.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm certainly that his family name

24     is Pecanac.  I'm over 90 per cent sure that his first name is either

25     Dragomir or Dragoljub.  Those are very similar names.  I think it's

Page 13009

 1     Dragomir.  Whether back in 1995 he was a captain or major, I'm not sure.

 2     Even later than that, I was in the same position, we spoke and I saw him

 3     with the rank of major, but whether at this time he was a captain or not,

 4     I'm not sure, but anyway, it's the same person.  I knew him from direct

 5     contacts that we had.  He passed through Bijeljina travelling to

 6     Banja Luka.  He needed fuel.  Usually when somebody from the Main Staff

 7     was travelling toward Banja Luka, they would carry some mail that they

 8     would hand to us and then on the way back from Banja Luka toward the

 9     Main Staff they would again call on us and then possibly leave the mail

10     that he had for us.  So I did know him personally.  But then I forgot

11     what you wanted to -- there was another part of your question relating to

12     him.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:

14        Q.   The question was what was his position in 1995?  He was in the

15     Main Staff.  What position was he in?

16        A.   He was with the Main Staff in the security and intelligence

17     administration.  I am not sure, because he wasn't my subordinate, nor was

18     he superior to me along the chain of command.  I believe that for a while

19     he was outside the security and intelligence administration -- or,

20     rather, he may have been on an intelligence assignment in some sub-centre

21     not far from Sarajevo, but that's only a hazy recollection.

22             Anyway, all the time he was a member of the security and

23     intelligence service.  Which position he held at any point in time, I

24     cannot say for certain.

25        Q.   And he was in a position in the security and intelligence

Page 13010

 1     administration of the Main Staff when you spoke to him on what appears to

 2     be the 5th of September of 1995?

 3        A.   I cannot answer this question with full certainty.  Whether he

 4     was a member of the security and intelligence administration or maybe

 5     detached somewhere.  But at any rate, he was a member of the intelligence

 6     and security service, and he had the status of an authorised official for

 7     these tasks.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said - sorry for interrupting you - he was a

 9     member of the intelligence and security service.  Which intelligence and

10     security service, that one of the Main Staff?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The intelligence and security

12     service that -- yes, it did belong to the Main Staff, but in principle

13     the intelligence and security service of the VRS as a whole is a parallel

14     line --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I put a clear question to you.  On page 19, lines

16     4 and 5, you said he was with the Main Staff in the security and

17     intelligence administration.  Later you said, "I cannot answer this

18     question with full certainty."  Then you said the -- "He was a member of

19     the security and intelligence -- a member of the intelligence and

20     security service," but you didn't say which unit.  That one of the Main

21     Staff or of another unit of the VRS?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered with some uncertainty,

23     because I did know people by name, but the exact designation of their

24     establishment position was something didn't know, except for

25     General Tolimir, that he was chief of the intelligence and security

Page 13011

 1     sector; and that Naval Captain Beara was chief of the security

 2     administration; and that Colonel Salapura was chief of the intelligence

 3     administration of the intelligence and security sector.  There were

 4     others who came and went, among them Pecanac.  What exactly his position

 5     was, whether he was a member of the security department or --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, again and again you were asked about his

 7     position in 1995.  Was he a member of the Main Staff?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You gave this answer already.  He was with the

10     Main Staff in the security and intelligence administration.  That was

11     your answer, and why -- do you stand by that?  Do you stand by that?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:

16        Q.   Colonel, you said you were called before a commission concerning

17     the disappearance or the fate of Avdo Palic.  Do you remember that?

18        A.   Yes, I remember.

19        Q.   Do you remember what you told them about Pecanac's position in

20     1995?

21        A.   I remember roughly.  Not every word though.  I do remember the

22     essence of what I told them.

23        Q.   Do you remember telling them that he was a security officer in

24     the Main Staff?

25        A.   Well, that's what I was saying a minute ago, answering the

Page 13012

 1     question of the Presiding Judge.  That's the terminology.  I don't know

 2     what kind of interpretation you're receiving and how familiar you are

 3     with the establishment structure and the chart of individual positions.

 4     I don't remember whether he was a desk officer or a junior desk officer

 5     or something else, but certainly he was on the payroll of the

 6     intelligence and security sector, and in our army they -- these are often

 7     called "security guys [Realtime transcript read in error "guards"]"

 8     colloquially.  He's a security guy.

 9        Q.   Security guy or security guard?

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Guy, interpreter's remark, g-u-y.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's an unpopular phrase.  It's

12     sort of slang, army slang, if you want.  It's short for -- instead of

13     security officer, they just say security guy.

14             To cut things short, Pecanac was a security officer belonging to

15     the sector for security and intelligence of the Main Staff of the VRS.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Finally, we got it.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Colonel.  I don't have any questions

18     for you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This concludes your examination-in-chief;

20     correct?

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It does, Mr. President.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

23             Mr. Tolimir, now you may commence your cross-examination.  You

24     have the floor.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I wish

Page 13013

 1     peace unto this house, and may this hearing be concluding in keeping with

 2     God's will and not my own.  I'd like to welcome the witness and wish him

 3     a pleasant stay with us.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, during the past two days you were

 6     frequently asked about some facts, but I'd rather move on to something

 7     else which may you find -- you may find easier to answer.  Let's look at

 8     your statement, which is 1D734.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you indicated earlier that you

10     would tender the statement of Mr. Todorovic, but you didn't.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Ah, thank you for reminding me, and if it's not

12     too late, I would offer it into evidence at this time.  Mr. President,

13     it's 1D733.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as an exhibit.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

16     Exhibit Number P2183.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document is now on the screen, P2183.

18             Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   In your interview, you said that when the war broke out, you were

22     at the Command Staff Academy in Belgrade; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  It was in 1991, on the 20th of June.  That is when the

24     break-up of Yugoslavia turned violent with the conflict breaking out in

25     Slovenia, and at that point in time I was at the military staff academy

Page 13014

 1     in Belgrade.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Nothing begins on its own and of

 3     itself.  Can you tell us how the break-up of Yugoslavia began in

 4     Slovenia?

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have asked this question to

 6     quite a lot of witnesses.  I would like to know the purpose of putting

 7     these questions to a witness like Mr. Todorovic.  That was not part of

 8     the examination-in-chief, and we have heard a lot of evidence about that,

 9     but which purpose -- what purpose do you think such a question could have

10     in light of the indictment?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  In the

12     interview that was just admitted, at page number 3, line 1, the witness

13     says that in 1991, when the break-up began, he said:

14             "In 1991, in July, when the break-up began, I did not return to

15     Slovenia, because on the 26th of June, Slovenia," et cetera, et cetera.

16             And this is where we stopped.  I would like to ask that the

17     witness be allowed to finish, because later on he was constantly being

18     questioned as to whether he was assigned to the VRS, and in this

19     interview we can see why it was impossible for him to go back.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was just informed by the registrar that we have

21     two different statements or interviews in front of us.  One is 1D733 that

22     was tendered by the Prosecution and received as P2183.  Now we have on

23     the screen 1D74 -- 734.  It's a different one.  That was my mistake.  I

24     was not aware of that.  Just to clarify for the record.

25             Do we have page number 3 of the document on the screen?  We

Page 13015

 1     should have it, please.

 2             Mr. Tolimir, I need the reference for the English text.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We need

 4     1D733, page 3, line 1.  1D733, page 3, line 1.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I assume you are referring to the B/C/S version,

 6     and now, please, the reference in English.  And for the record, this is

 7     P2183.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in English it's page

 9     3, the last paragraph.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I provide an answer to the

11     question?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to ask Mr. Tolimir to repeat his

13     question in relation to the text in front of us.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].

16        Q.   The question is this:  Mr. Todorovic, can you explain to the

17     Chamber why, after you completed the Command Staff Academy in Belgrade,

18     you could not and did not return to your position in Slovenia where you

19     had come from.

20        A.   I recall the date as the 28th of June, 1991.  That is two days

21     following the declaration of independence and the beginning of an armed

22     attack on the units and facilities of the JNA in Slovenia.

23             As a student of the General Staff school, I decided to go to

24     Maribor in my own vehicle to see what was going on with my family, my

25     wife and younger daughter, because my older daughter had already been in

Page 13016

 1     Belgrade, at university.

 2             I arrived at the Slovenian border whereupon the Slovenia police

 3     refused to let me in because I had Belgrade registration plates on the

 4     car.  Knowing the area well, I turned back and took a side road through

 5     the fields to get into Slovenia.  Having served in Slovenia for some

 6     time, I used side roads to eventually reach the apartment where my family

 7     was.

 8             Within a short time, perhaps half an hour, since there was no

 9     time to arrange or argue anything, I basically told or ordered my family

10     to pack the basic things they could fit in a bag and to leave for

11     Belgrade.  We were supposed to leave Maribor for our hometown of

12     Bijeljina, actually, because both my wife and I hail from there.

13             It was my intention to get them out of the combat area or the

14     war-affected area and to accommodate them with my family or my wife's

15     family, not taking into account that eventually it would still over into

16     Bosnia.

17             I didn't consider my employment or my position there, because as

18     an active-duty officer I was prepared to go where assigned by the needs

19     of service.  Indeed, this is how things developed.  My wife and daughter

20     packed, and we took a few bags, locked the apartment, and left one key

21     with our next-door neighbour.

22             We used the same side roads to go back and exit Slovenia.  We

23     crossed Croatia in order to reach Bijeljina where I left my wife and

24     daughter and returned to the school in Belgrade the same day in the

25     evening.

Page 13017

 1             Let me say this as well:  While I was driving through Slovenia,

 2     my car radio was on, and one could hear the news repeatedly of how the

 3     situation was very dangerous and complex and that the population was

 4     warned not to go outdoors.  They were told to stay protected inside

 5     should there be any shelling or bombing.  They were also advised on the

 6     most secure places within their own homes.

 7             As I was approaching Maribor, the news was that bombarders

 8     were -- bombers were up and that there was no one out in the street.

 9     That propaganda was so strong, trying to draw a picture of some insidious

10     underhanded approach taken by the JNA which, in fact, did not exist.

11             En route to Maribor, I was accompanied by a schoolmate whose

12     family was also in Maribor.  We reached Maribor together, and I dropped

13     him off in front of his building.  We arranged to go back together.

14     However, he called me and said, "I'll return later, and you just go about

15     your own business."  Unfortunately, he stayed for over a month.  He

16     couldn't get out any more, because his movement was restricted.  He

17     didn't even attend the closing part or ceremony of the course.  It also

18     included another colleague from Vrhnika.  There were also not present

19     because the security organs prevented their exit from Slovenia.  They

20     arrived subsequently, but unfortunately could not attend the diploma

21     award ceremony.

22             That would be put in briefest possible terms.

23        Q.   After Slovenia declared its independence on the 26th of June, two

24     days later there was an attack on the JNA in Slovenia; is that correct?

25     And can you tell us why the JNA was attacked in the former

Page 13018

 1     Yugoslav Republic of Slovenia?

 2        A.   I don't think you understood me.  I said two days later, on the

 3     28th of June.  I remember that day, because it is an Orthodox holiday,

 4     and on that day I travelled to Slovenia to get my family, and I was

 5     discussing the news I could hear in the car while travelling.

 6             I have no direct knowledge of how things developed and what

 7     barracks were attacked.  I have information from my colleagues and

 8     friends who served in Slovenia as I did.  They talked about individuals,

 9     but politics is a different matter.

10        Q.   Can you tell us how the units you served with in Slovenia came

11     under attack, and did they remain there or were they driven out?

12        A.   Most of the garrisons were blocked.  Town and city authorities

13     were ordered to turn off electricity and water supply so as to render

14     their stay there impossible.  They were trying to make them surrender to

15     the Slovenian Territorial Defence, which on the 26th of June became the

16     official arm -- army of the Republic of Yugoslavia -- of Slovenia.

17             Those sieges took quite some time, but the officers in the

18     garrisons tried to cope with it as best they could and find different

19     solutions to solve their problems.  Finally, it was arranged with the

20     political authorities in Slovenia that those units north of Ljubljana

21     could leave Slovenia in an organised manner in order to move to some

22     other garrisons.  This was done, indeed.  I know, for example, of the

23     units from the Maribor general area where I served.  I know where they

24     left specifically.  I can't speak exactly of the other units.

25             My former brigade where I used to be in Slovenska Bistrica was

Page 13019

 1     moved to Gornji Milanovac in Serbia, somewhere in western Serbia.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, before you continue this line of

 3     questions, I would like to ask you again what is the purpose of putting

 4     questions about the secession of Slovenia and the impact on the VRS or

 5     the JNA at that time.  We are -- in this case, we are not dealing with

 6     the conflict which started in 1991 and then went through 1992.  We are

 7     discussing about 1995.  In my view, it is a waste of time to put

 8     questions to that, and we have now used quite a lot of time with, in my

 9     view, irrelevant questions and answers.

10             Please focus on the facts Mr. Todorovic can provide you with as

11     knowledge.  Please continue.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  At page

13     4 of this interview, in lines 7 and 8, the Prosecutor asked Mr. Todorovic

14     this:

15             "We know you were in the JNA and that you were temporarily

16     assigned to Bosnia, to a position in the VRS."

17             One would conclude that Mr. Todorovic was sent to Bosnia directly

18     without every mentioning that his former country fell apart and that he

19     had to take his family out of the apartment they lived in.  This all

20     takes on a completely different connotation unless cleared up.  This

21     witness did not arrive in Bosnia because he was sent there by the VJ.  He

22     came their voluntarily.  That is why I wanted to put these questions,

23     because it is imputed here upon the Army of Yugoslavia that it was the VJ

24     who sent officers to serve in Bosnia.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where do I find this relevant part in the English

Page 13020

 1     version?  Is it on the screen?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, it's on the

 3     screen, line 18 and 19.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  If you put questions to that.  That

 5     was also raised in examination-in-chief, but the kind of questions was

 6     quite different.  Please continue.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, tell the Trial Chamber, had there not been the war

10     in Slovenia, would you have returned to your service in Maribor from

11     where you were sent to your training at the Command Staff Academy?  Thank

12     you.

13        A.   Yes, I certainly would have returned.  I'm not sure whether it --

14     I spoke about that to the Prosecutor or Mr. Tomasz who examined me in

15     February, but even now, after all this time, if I could meet the

16     administrative criteria, one of which is citizenship, I would prefer

17     returning to Slovenia to live there, because the best years of my life,

18     from when I was 19 till the age of 42, I spent in Slovenia.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  I understand that you feel the need to

20     speak about it, but my time is limited, and I have to ask all the

21     questions I want to ask within a given time.

22             What happened to the officers who served with you or were --

23     attended the same training and they were Slovenians?  Were they able to

24     remain members of the units of the Army of Yugoslavia?

25        A.   Most of us, and I'm speaking about my generation back in 1991,

Page 13021

 1     were sent where we wanted to go.  There was no one Slovenian in my class.

 2     There were some Croats and Macedonians, some Albanians, Bosnians, and

 3     Serbs from Serbia, but most people were sent to serve in their own

 4     republic or -- I would have to recall it all.  Maybe if somebody was

 5     married to a woman from Belgrade who had an appointment there, then

 6     probably they would be appointed to serve in Belgrade because they had a

 7     place to live even though he was not a Serb.

 8        Q.   Please give us a short answer.  Since you served in the Army of

 9     Yugoslavia during the war in Slovenia and Croatia and later, did

10     Slovenian officers of the JNA stay in the garrisons in Serbia where they

11     served even after the war?

12        A.   Yes, most of them did.  In the security administration, there was

13     a lieutenant-colonel who was Slovenian, later was promoted to the rank of

14     colonel, and he retired from the Army of Yugoslavia.  Well, now it's the

15     Army Of Serbia.  But some of them went to their own country.

16        Q.   Thank you.  That was going to be my following question.  So those

17     who wanted to stay, were able to stay, and those who wanted to leave,

18     were able to leave?

19        A.   Yes.  That's what I said already.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us whether officers from

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina such as you because you were from Bijeljina were able

22     to go to Bosnia-Herzegovina after the break-up of Yugoslavia and the

23     secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia?  Thank you?

24        A.   What period are you referring to, after 1995 or right after the

25     beginning of the break-up of Yugoslavia?

Page 13022

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did the officers who hailed from Bosnia-Herzegovina

 2     after the secession of that republic from Yugoslavia, were they able to

 3     go to their own republic?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Yes, they were able to go, and they were not a priori obliged to

 5     go there.  Not everybody who hailed from there was automatically sent

 6     there.  So there were two elements that were required:  The will of the

 7     person in question and the needs of the service.

 8             I worked in the security administration of the VJ and one officer

 9     hailed from Foca.  He never went there, not even to visit his family

10     during that period, let alone to serve there.  So it was not mandatory.

11     Attempts -- efforts were made to reconcile the needs of the service and

12     the origin of the person.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, first, you should pause between

15     question and answer as you're using the same language.  It's impossible

16     for the interpreters to follow.

17             The second is we need the first break now.  We adjourn and resume

18     at 11.00, and then you may continue your questioning.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Please continue, and try to

22     use your time in the most sufficient way, and try not to deal with

23     matters which are irrelevant for this case.  Please continue.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

25     apologise, but very different things have been established with regard to

Page 13023

 1     adjudicated facts that we do not acknowledge.  Here we have before us an

 2     officer who has first-hand experience with this break-up.  Not only him

 3     but his family too.  And I do not accept the adjudicated facts about the

 4     break-up of the former Yugoslavia.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, when I ask you a question, please watch the screen

 7     in front of you, and once the cursor stops moving, then start your

 8     answer, and please answer briefly.  If possible, give a yes or no answer,

 9     because otherwise I won't be able to ask all my questions.

10             Here's my following question:  Did the Muslim personnel in the

11     JNA who did not accept the secession of Slovenia, Croatia, and

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina, were they able to remain in their officers' position

13     in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia even after the secession of the

14     respective republics of Yugoslavia?  Thank you?

15        A.   Yes, they were able to, and I know some examples.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us, do you know when the Muslim part, the

17     so-called Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, separated itself from the

18     Republika Srpska and when did Bosnia-Herzegovina break up?

19        A.   I'm not sure about the date.  I know that the 9th of January is

20     mentioned as the day of statehood in Republika Srpska.  I cannot speak

21     about other dates.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know what the -- what the day of statehood

23     of Bosnia-Herzegovina is and when Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised as a

24     country by certain countries, members of the European Union?  Thank you.

25        A.   I know that two dates are observed, the 29th of November.  That

Page 13024

 1     is the -- or, rather, the 26th of November.  That's the old day of

 2     statehood.  On that day the second session of AVNOJ took place.  And then

 3     there's another date, the 2nd of March or April.  I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Have you ever heard that Bosnia-Herzegovina was

 5     recognised by some EU members and NATO members on the 6th of April, as

 6     you said?

 7        A.   Well, I didn't really say the 6th of April, but I did say it was

 8     some date in March or April.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina,

10     and Croatia were rewarded for seceding from Yugoslavia by their

11     international recognition?

12        A.   Yes, we could put it that way.

13        Q.   Thank you.  On page 4, lines 8 and 9, the Prosecutor asked you

14     whether you were sent to -- deployed to Bosnia to perform duty in VRS.

15     So now tell me, the officers who hailed from Bosnia-Herzegovina, did they

16     have a status before the break-up in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

17     and the Army of Yugoslavia?

18        A.   Yes, they did.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did every --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Todorovic, please pause

21     between question and answer and the next question.

22             Carry on, please, Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, please tell us, did every member of the former

Page 13025

 1     SFRY provide money for their personnel in the federal structures, and

 2     were those funds used for paying out salaries, social contributions, et

 3     cetera, for members of the JNA?

 4        A.   I don't quite understand.  Are you referring to the period until

 5     the secession or after?

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Until the secession.  Thank you.

 7        A.   Until the secession there were no financial funds broken down by

 8     the republics for the needs of the Yugoslav People's Army.  There was a

 9     federal level at which all this funding was taken care of, including

10     salaries, housing, et cetera.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us if all republics, members of

12     Yugoslavia, were obliged to contribute money from their budgets to the

13     federal budget.  Thank you.

14        A.   I'm not an economist, so I cannot provide a precise answer, but

15     part of the federal budget was fed from the republican budgets.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the Republika Srpska - I'm referring

17     to the republic, not the army - after the beginning of combat activities

18     reached an agreement with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia that it was

19     supposed to contribute to the budget of Yugoslavia, whereas Yugoslavia

20     would pay out the salaries of the officers serving in the RS.

21        A.   I suppose that there was such an agreement, because all members

22     who were temporarily deployed to the VRS received their salaries and

23     other benefits from the VJ.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know, Mr. Todorovic, that based on this

25     agreement between the RS and the FRY, that is Serbia, the VRS reached an

Page 13026

 1     agreement with the JNA to accommodate five to six officers who were

 2     supposed to be in charge of personnel affairs concerning its members who

 3     took part in the war?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Yes, I do.  This small part of the personnel was called the

 5     30th Personnel Centre.  There was the 30th and there was the 40th.  As

 6     far as I know, the 30th was in charge for the VRS, whereas the 40th was

 7     in charge of the Army of the Republic of the Serb Krajina.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please wait.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Please answer this question if you

12     know:  Did the funds of the health insurance or the medical insurance

13     that were paid in for army members even before the war were acquired

14     rights of members of the JNA and members of their family who were

15     entitled to receive medical treatment in medical facilities of the

16     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

17        A.   Yes, I know about that, and that was indeed made use of.  Even

18     now retired members of the former JNA who are in the territory of the RS

19     can receive medical treatment in medical facilities of the Republic of

20     Serbia based on their acquired rights and their years of service, which

21     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia acknowledged as the accessory of the

22     former SFRY, and so did the Republic of Serbia later.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the agreements reached between the

24     former Yugoslav republics, including those that seceded, acknowledge the

25     acquired rights of former -- the acquired rights of people who worked in

Page 13027

 1     Yugoslavia, including --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the end of his

 3     question.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Since you are putting your questions in a very

 5     fast manner, the interpreters didn't get and catch the last part of your

 6     question.  Please repeat it and slow down a bit.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, do you know that after the secession, even the

10     former Yugoslav republics through their agreement on secession

11     represented the obligation to provide social rights and social welfare to

12     all citizens who could transfer these rights to the republic where they

13     now live?  Thank you.

14        A.   Yes, I know about this.  And it has functioned for awhile with

15     Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, and toward the end of last year, an

16     international agreement was signed with Slovenia, and the disbursement of

17     pensions and other benefits to inhabitants of Serbia began recently,

18     those who acquired some rights based on living in those republics.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Please tell us, did the Federal

20     Republic of Yugoslavia or Serbia ever deny their acquired rights to any

21     citizen who lived in former Yugoslavia, or did they continue to pay

22     salaries to them and housing, et cetera, irrespective of who -- which

23     army they joined?  Thank you.

24        A.   Yes, I know that too.  Civilians were paid continuously, and

25     members of the former JNA received their salaries and other benefits up

Page 13028

 1     to the moment that they filed an application to -- for termination of

 2     service in the JNA, but tenancy rights were not denied them, nor the

 3     rights that they had with regard to any real estate in Serbia.

 4             I know some examples of swapping apartments between members of

 5     the former JNA who lived in Slovenia.  I know more about Slovenia,

 6     because I lived there for quite a while and worked there.  So they

 7     swapped apartments, and the state accepted that and it was all legal.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Please tell us, do you know whether

 9     the apartments of army members in the secessionist republics of Slovenia,

10     Croatia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina were taken away by force and was that

11     done in the same way in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia too?  Thank

12     you.

13        A.   I can use my own example.  My apartment in Maribor was assigned

14     to a member of the army of Slovenia or some other Slovenian citizen.

15     However, when I retired, based on all the rights acquired, I was given an

16     apartment in Belgrade.  I know of a number of colleagues who could not

17     exercise their right to have those apartments returned to them, be it for

18     the purpose of residing in it or exchanging it for another, and this

19     applied to all the former republics, that is to say, the three you

20     mentioned, Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia.  I don't have much information

21     about Macedonia.  I don't know anything about the interstate agreements.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Let's look at page 5 of your

23     statement, lines 1 through 8.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 6 in the English.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 13029

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I will refer you to the right lines, and you can explain.  You

 3     say that you worked in Belgrade in the security administration, and you

 4     and Mr. Lugonja were there as members of the VRS, given the fact that you

 5     both hailed from Bosnia and Herzegovina before you joined the

 6     East Bosnia Corps.  Can you explain this period to the Chamber and tell

 7     them of the existence of that one office which took care of VRS personnel

 8     who happened to be in Serbia.

 9        A.   I knew Marko Lugonja from the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We were

10     at the same level, but he was with the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  Once he

11     concluded his education in Belgrade, in the operations school, he was

12     assigned to the security administration of the army of the FRY where I

13     happened to be, having returned from the war in Republika Srpska.  We

14     were next-door colleagues, and in 1998, based on the same principle that

15     was applied in 1993, when I was asked by General Tolimir to respond to

16     their call and take part temporarily in the formation of the VRS,

17     General Lugonja asked me to accompany him to the VRS, because he was to

18     be appointed the chief of security of the Main Staff of the VRS in

19     peacetime, since it was 1998.  I gave it some thought, and I accepted for

20     the same reasons I did in 1993.  Therefore I did respond and was

21     temporarily assigned to the VRS.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Todorovic, since you returned to the VRS after

23     the war, we need to look at page 4 of your interview, lines 21 to 24.  In

24     those lines, if you can see then --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please give us the reference in the English text.

Page 13030

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 6 in the English.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which line?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The top of the page.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, to save time, I will simply recount what you

 6     stated, and then I will have a question for you.

 7             Here you describe that on the 16th of November, 1993, until

 8     February 1997, you were chief of the intelligence and security

 9     administration, and then between 1998 and 2002, you were at the position

10     specified, whereupon you were retired.  You mentioned how you worked in

11     the Weapons Reduction Commission, and you how you attended courses in

12     Oberammergau in Germany and you also were present in Vienna when the

13     agreement was implemented.  Let's look at 65 ter 05415 [as interpreted]

14     and tell us whether it was based on this agreement that you exercised

15     your duties as control -- weapons inspector as part of the commission for

16     weapon control.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the number of

19     the document.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the number

21     of the document.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 05714.  It is on the screen.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   We see a document of the Main Staff, the date is the 31st of

25     March and it's titled "Report on Negotiations and the Agreement of

Page 13031

 1     Regional Stabilisation".  It mentions that between the 18th and 29th of

 2     March there were negotiations in Vienna when this agreement was reached.

 3     In seven items specified below, among others we see in item 1 "Agreement

 4     on subregional arms control".

 5             Was it based on this agreement reached in Vienna that you were

 6     assigned to the commission for reduction and arms control?

 7        A.   Yes.  It was based on this agreement that I was sent to

 8     Oberammergau to attend short -- a short training.  I wanted to say that

 9     in 1998, the reduction process had basically been completed, and the

10     commissions of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, and Serbia

11     jointly toured all military locations in those locations, controlling the

12     declared as opposed to factual situation with the armaments and whether

13     the signatories abided by the provisions of the agreement.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Could we please have page 2 in e-court so that we

15     could see what the limits were to which you had to reduce the weapons in

16     the respective republics.  We see items (a) to (e) with the respective

17     entities and the minimum of heavy weaponry retained after reduction.

18     Look at page 2.

19             Was it your job to have the number of weapons in the respective

20     entities brought down to the level specified?

21        A.   Yes.  That was the task of the commission.  In 1998, when I

22     appeared in the VRS for the second time, our primary task was to control

23     the whereabouts of those weapons and whether those locations had been

24     declared and whether there were any deviations or violations of the

25     agreement.  By 1998, the figures were indeed brought down to these

Page 13032

 1     levels.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Let's look at the last page of the

 3     document so as to see the signature block.  It was signed by a

 4     representative of the RS, and at that time it was

 5     Major-General Zdravko Tolimir, assistant commander.

 6             This document that Mr. Todorovic abided by in the course of his

 7     work is something that I seek to tender.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I don't quite understand the purpose

 9     of tendering this document from 1996, if I'm not mistaken.  Could you

10     please explain that.  If I'm not mistaken, this is relating to a time

11     period after the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I quoted

13     from page 4 of the interview before referring to this document.  It was

14     lines 21 through 30 where the witness addressed this topic when

15     discussing it with the investigators.  This was the basis for the

16     agreement to be admitted just so that we could understand what mechanisms

17     were used to reduce the number of weapons.  This is part of the general

18     activities of the accused.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document will be received as an exhibit.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 5714 shall be

22     assigned Exhibit Number D219.  Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Let us

24     look at page 6 of the interview, lines 30 to 34 in the Serbian.  It is

25     P2183.  In the English version, it's the next page, page 7.  Apologies.

Page 13033

 1     In English, it is page 8.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, yesterday in examination-in-chief, you were asked

 4     by Mr. Vanderpuye how you arrived in Yugoslavia, and you discussed how I

 5     came to see General Dimitrijevic when we met for the first time.

 6             What you said about 1993, does it have to do with the encounter

 7     we had at the security administration of the VJ?

 8        A.   Yes, it does.  I don't know whether it was in May or June, but

 9     around mid-1993.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Was there any basis in the laws and agreements

11     between the FRY and the RS on which I could look for personnel that was

12     in the FRY to try and ask them to join the RS army voluntarily?

13        A.   Yes.  I believe we touched upon that in a previous question.  I

14     said that voluntariness was applied, and the other criterion was the

15     needs of the service, and I did specify that some colleagues of mine

16     refused for their own personal reasons.  I said that a colleague from

17     Foca never came back to Republika Srpska, not even to visit his family,

18     let alone to serve there.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Let us go to page 10, lines 11 through 16.  I will

20     quote once we see them.  It's page 11 in the English, the last paragraph.

21             Here you say that the other professional officers in your

22     department, such as Dragan Tomic and those who were not from the reserve

23     staff, were on the payroll of the VJ.  Was it only through the payroll

24     and accountancy done by the 30th Personnel Centre that they received

25     their salaries from the RS funds, or did they receive their salary

Page 13034

 1     directly from the VJ?

 2        A.   I specified that the only member of the security department

 3     headed by me from the reserve force was Dragan Tomic.  He was a reserve

 4     officer of the VRS, and his name was not on any payroll lists of the Army

 5     of Yugoslavia.

 6             The other subordinates of mine in the intelligence and security

 7     department of the East Bosnia Corps were active-duty members of the Army

 8     of Yugoslavia or of the VRS, and their names can be found on all payroll

 9     lists that existed in the 30th Personnel Centre of the VJ.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  At page 10, starting with line 25, and

11     then at page 11, you mention Mr. Mitrovic.  You also do that on page 12.

12     Actually, it's page 12 in the English.  You mentioned Ljubo Mitrovic as

13     the president of the exchange commission.  Can you tell us whether

14     Ljubo Mitrovic was subordinated to you, or did you only provide advice

15     and guidelines to him since you were in personal contact and you knew him

16     from earlier on when he served with the Semberija Brigade.

17        A.   I only provided guidelines, and I clarified issues that weren't

18     necessarily clear to him.  He was not my subordinate directly.  In the

19     part you referred to, I was trying to explain that he asked to be in the

20     security and intelligence department of the East Bosnia Corps on paper so

21     that no one could transfer him for various reasons.  That is why

22     Mr. Mitrovic, on paper, had his office seat in the intelligence and

23     security department of the East Bosnia Corps.  His other function was --

24     or, actually, the president of the exchange commission was subordinated

25     to the commander of the East Bosnia Corps.

Page 13035

 1             I explain in the interview that he had a separate office outside

 2     the corps command, at the other end of town.  He had his own secretary

 3     and phone line and the fax machine.  He had a separate vehicle and could

 4     work autonomously and independently when exercising his duties as the

 5     president of the exchange commission.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At this point in time I would like to put a

 7     question to clarify.  You said, sir, on page 43, lines 12 through 15, and

 8     I quote:

 9             "The other subordinates of mine in the intelligence and security

10     department of the East Bosnia Corps were active-duty members of the Army

11     of Yugoslavia or the VRS."

12             Can you tell me to which time period you are referring when you

13     give this information.  Go ahead.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to the wartime

15     period.  In other words, 1993 through 1997.  And then in 1998 through

16     2000, it was a bit different.  It was a combination of factors.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

18             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you, Your Honour.  Mr. Todorovic, for the transcript, just

21     tell us loud and clear, without any explanations, who was Ljubo Mitrovic

22     subordinated to?  Thank you.

23        A.   To the East Bosnia Corps commander.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Let us now take a look at page 12

25     where on lines 1 through 7, and that will be page 13 in the English, you

Page 13036

 1     talk about reconnaissance units, and you mention proposals that you

 2     submitted to the commander in relation to those units.

 3             I will read out from line 3 of your statement, and I quote:

 4              "All units, including the military police, had reconnaissance

 5     units that were subordinated to the commander -- or, rather, to the Chief

 6     of Staff, and in the case of the police and their reconnaissance units, I

 7     propose their use in the most effective way.  The commander usually

 8     accepted and agreed to my proposals, but he did not have to."

 9             Bearing this in mind, for the needs of the transcript could you

10     please tell us whether military police units and the reconnaissance units

11     that you provided professional guidance to, were they under your command

12     or the under the commands of their officers.

13        A.   Well, I think it's very clear from what I said here that their

14     commander was the corps commander and I, as a professional, and along the

15     professional chain of command actually proposed their employment in the

16     most effective manner.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can we please take a look now at P1297 in

18     e-court, and let us see what the legal provisions are for the use of

19     those.  Thank you.  Thank you.

20             We see before us the service regulations for the military police.

21     Let us now take a look at page 6 of this document, paragraph 2.  Thank

22     you.  Could we please just move the text a bit so that the witness can

23     see it.  Thank you.

24             We see what this -- these service regulations actually provide

25     for, and I will read this out for you.  Now we see it in the English

Page 13037

 1     version as well.

 2             The second half of the first paragraph says that the regulations

 3     are based on the provisions of the federal laws and other federal

 4     regulations.  My question for you is this:  In units of the VRS during

 5     the war, did you apply these rules from the Army of Yugoslavia in keeping

 6     with the regulations that were in force at the time?

 7        A.   Well, yes.  We did apply the rules of service of the Yugoslav

 8     Army, including the one that we have before us, and it frequently

 9     occurred that in a document we would make a reference to that.  We would

10     say based on the rules of service of the military police, for instance,

11     of the Yugoslav Army taken over by the VRS.  So we would make that the

12     reference in order to actually point to the regulation or rule that was

13     referred to there.  This had to do with various services, including the

14     security organ, and it was -- they were used up until the end of the war,

15     in fact.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In view of what you've just said, would you look at

17     paragraph 2 here, and I'd like to ask you this:  Did these regulations

18     provide a basis for the command and control of the military police within

19     the VRS?

20        A.   Well, yes.  That's what I said in reply to your previous question

21     already.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now please take a look at the first sentence of

23     paragraph 3, and I will read it out.

24             "The regulations are intended for the following:  Members of the

25     armed police for their unified approach when executing the tasks from

Page 13038

 1     their jurisdiction."

 2             Now, my question is this:  As an organ who commanded the military

 3     police, would you please tell me this reference here to a unified

 4     approach, what exactly does that mean?  Does that mean that a military

 5     policeman in Belgrade, in Banja Luka, in Drvar or anywhere would have to

 6     abide by it.

 7        A.   Well, exactly as you stated there, these regulations were in fact

 8     drafted in order for a unified approach to be applied and not every

 9     individual taking his own decisions as they please.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have a problem with the transcript because you

12     were overlapping again.  I can't see where the answer started.  Now it's

13     corrected.  Thank you.

14             Mr. Tolimir, you quoted from this document but in a very

15     different way of that part we see in the English translation.  Perhaps it

16     is a translation issue, but if you read a text into the transcript, it

17     should be really a serious quotation.  I see a different part in the --

18     oh, yes, I see.  You were reading from paragraph 3.  I heard from

19     paragraph 2.  Thank you very much.  Now I see it.  Please carry on.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, would you please explain here whether in this

23     unified approach that was something that was taught in schools, written

24     down in laws, was the fundamental underlying principle that the military

25     police should be commanded by the commander and not anyone else and that

Page 13039

 1     the military police did not have to have a commander, komandir, who would

 2     actually tell them what to do at every single step, because they had

 3     actually learned that principle during their schooling?

 4        A.   Yes.  In the course of their training, the training of the

 5     military police; and this included military police, plain military police

 6     as well as their commanders, they had to learn their duties and

 7     obligations and rights, including the right to take into custody, apply

 8     force if necessary, ask for IDs, and so on.  So all those rights that

 9     fall within the jurisdiction of the military police.  They learned that

10     during their training.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, based on your experience, and you've told us

12     that you served in Slovenia, in Serbia, in Bijeljina, and so on, would a

13     military policeman have to apply exactly the same approach and take the

14     same action in any of those places, as far as your experience is

15     concerned, if, for instance, he approached a military person, a soldier,

16     and asked for his ID?

17        A.   Exactly.  They would have to abide by the same rules and follow

18     exactly the same procedure when asking for IDs, and there was no limit on

19     which rank they could actually intercept, stop, and ask for their IDs.

20     In other words, a staff sergeant could ask for an ID from -- of a major,

21     and this applied anywhere, whether Belgrade or Skopje or anywhere in the

22     former Yugoslavia.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now please show the witness page 7.  I'd like

24     him to take a look at it and then I will have a question for the witness.

25     And that will be chapter 1.  Perhaps you already have it there.  "General

Page 13040

 1     provisions."  Can we show it in English, please?  Yes.  Now we have it in

 2     the English version.

 3             I will only read out the first sentence from paragraph 1.  I

 4     quote:

 5             "The military police are composed of specially trained and

 6     equipped unites of the armed forces which perform certain duties, as

 7     follows:  Security for the needs -- for the needs of the armed forces,

 8     protection of people and property, safety and military traffic,

 9     maintenance of soldierly order and discipline and uncovering crimes and

10     perpetrators," and so on.

11             Now, Mr. Todorovic, could you please tell the Chamber did every

12     member of the military police undergo special training in order to be

13     able to carry out the duties as described here?

14        A.   Yes.  Commanding officers, who were assigned to military police

15     units after undergoing general training, more often than not, that would

16     be infantry or mechanised training.  They would then be sent to Pancevo

17     to the special military security school where staff were trained for the

18     needs of the military police, whereas soldiers who were members of the

19     military police were -- underwent training within the unit where they

20     were assigned up until the moment when they were reassigned to a unit

21     where they would serve, where they would undergo specialised training

22     depending on what kind of tasks they had to deal with in that unit.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Yesterday in the course of the

24     examination-in-chief you were asked whether you had commanded military

25     police who provided -- who guarded the prisoners in Batkovic.  Now, let

Page 13041

 1     us take a look at page 9 of this document before us, at paragraph 12, and

 2     see what we have there.  That's chapter 2, and it says "Command and

 3     control of the military police."  And that will be on page 10 in the

 4     English version.  Now we have it in English as well.  And we see that it

 5     says as follows:

 6             "The officer in charge of the military unit and institution

 7     within whose establishment the military police unit is placed or to which

 8     it is attached commands and controls the military police."

 9             Now, pursuant to this, would you please tell me who it was who

10     commanded, who was the commander of the military police at the collection

11     centre in Batkovic and within whose establishment were they?

12        A.   At the military collection centre in Batkovic, as I explained

13     yesterday, there were some 20 to 25 military police - in other words, a

14     Military Police Platoon - and they were part of the military police

15     battalion of the East Bosnia Corps.  They were resubordinated -- or,

16     rather, attached to the collection centre, and the commanding officer of

17     that platoon was in daily communication to discuss any difficulties or

18     problems they were facing with the warden of the collection centre.

19     However, if he needed clothes, uniforms, equipment, and so on, or if he

20     needed to replace personnel, then he would address these issues to his

21     direct commander, which was the battalion commander, the military police

22     battalion commander.  In other words, that platoon was temporarily

23     assigned to the collection centre in order to carry out the guard duties

24     there, and it was taken from under the battalion command.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Would you tell the Trial Chamber who

Page 13042

 1     was the commanding officer of the military police battalion, and in

 2     what -- to what unit did he or they belong?

 3        A.   The military police battalion was under the command of the

 4     commander of the military police, Captain Vulin, later Major Vulin, and

 5     it was -- it had under it the structure of the battalion, and his

 6     commander was the commander of the East Bosnia Corps,

 7     General Simic Novica.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure of the first name.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the name of this man,

12     General Simic.  What was his first name?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Novica Simic.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             Mr. Tolimir, carry on, please.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, let us look at item 13, what it says about the

19     powers of the security organ with regard to the military police in

20     general.  It says the military police is controlled along professional

21     lines by the commander of the unit or facility to which the military

22     police unit belongs or to which it is attached.

23             Here's my question to you.  Did you have the right to exert

24     professional control over the military police unit of the

25     East Bosnia Corps given your position in the security service?

Page 13043

 1        A.   It was both my right and my duty.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Please explain the Trial Chamber how you went about

 3     it.  Thank you.

 4        A.   I conducted frequent inspection and audits.  If I observed some

 5     shortcomings in the activities of the military police, I would point that

 6     out to the commander, and I would set deadlines and define tasks for the

 7     rectification of those shortcomings, and I would also acquaint the corps

 8     commander for him to be up-to-date, and in accordance -- or depending on

 9     need, I would propose measures for him to take.  For example,

10     disciplinary measures or even the opposite; if somebody did a very good

11     job, that person should be -- should receive some incentives.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic, now please take a look at Article 2,

13     paragraph 2, quote for the transcript:

14             "In carrying out tasks from the remit of the military police,

15     based on need and the decision of the military officer in charge, the

16     following can -- can engage in co-ordinated action with the military

17     police," and so on.

18             Here's my question:  Did you have any powers with regard to units

19     that are deployed to join other units, to act in co-ordinated action with

20     them, or was it somebody else?  Thank you.

21        A.   You were referring to Article 2 in your question, but I can't see

22     any such article here on the screen.

23        Q.   Thank you, Todorovic.  I misquoted.  I quoted from item 1, but we

24     see Chapter II.  I'm going to quote from paragraph 3, but do answer my

25     question that I asked about item 2 of general provisions?

Page 13044

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please display the English

 2     version too.  It's on page 8 in English.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Now you can see paragraph 2 of item 2.  So that military police

 5     units can be part of co-ordinated action.  So who has authority over them

 6     in such a case?

 7        A.   It's the commander who takes the decision on co-ordinated action

 8     when he decides about combat activities, be it defence, attack or any

 9     other activity.  In that case, he determines who has the main role.  If

10     the military police unit acts in co-ordination with another unit, then

11     that other unit would mostly probably be a reconnaissance unit because

12     they have trained in a very similar manner.  So the attached part that

13     acts in co-ordination must be instructed or trained, and its training

14     will be conducted by the commander of the military police unit because he

15     is basically responsible for that task.  Of course if he needs

16     professional assistance, he will contact the chief of the security organ

17     so that he may contribute to that training.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  I asked you this because yesterday you

19     were asked whether the military police unit in Zvornik took part in

20     combat as it was presented by Mr. Pandurevic in his report of 16 July

21     1995.  Please tell us if you remember that.  Did the military police

22     unit, once it arrived in the zone of responsibility of the

23     Zvornik Brigade was under the authority of the commander of the

24     Zvornik Brigade?

25        A.   No, because the military police unit, which was part of the

Page 13045

 1     military police battalion that was deployed to Zvornik was only sent

 2     there to carry out a specific task, namely to accept some of the members

 3     of the BH Army taken prisoner and to conduct them to the Batkovic

 4     collection centre.  That's a task he received from the battalion

 5     commander, and I only relayed it to him.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now the transcript stopped.  Please now put the

 7     next question.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Do explain the following:  If it had

10     been the way Pandurevic stated in his report, if they had fought as a

11     unit of the Zvornik Brigade, who would have had authority over them?

12        A.   If there had been a need to use the military police unit in such

13     a way, I mean from the East Bosnia Corps, in principle, the Main Staff

14     through you or the operative organ should have issued an order to the

15     effect that the command of the East Bosnia Corps should deploy a unit to

16     act in co-ordination with part of the military police to carry out the

17     combat mission given to the commander of the Zvornik Brigade.  Since that

18     was not the case, that is, the commander of the battalion of the

19     East Bosnia Corps did not receive such a task, he was not to take part in

20     the performance of any combat mission, and I believe he wasn't.

21             In that scenario, when the commander of the military police from

22     the East Bosnia Corps reported to the Zvornik Brigade that he had arrived

23     with so-and-so many men, equipment and the like, and placing himself

24     under that commander's command for a certain period, he should have

25     received a specific task from that commander, and the commander of the

Page 13046

 1     Zvornik Brigade should have made sure that that unit was indeed capable

 2     of carrying out that mission.

 3             I hope I've been able to answer your question as it was intended.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic, you did, but state clearly for the

 5     transcript.  If they had fought as part of the Zvornik Brigade as it was

 6     reported, would the one in charge of combat activities in the zone of

 7     responsibility of the brigade have been responsible for that or the

 8     command of the East Bosnia Corps?

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please start over with his

10     answer.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, you started too early.  We don't have it on

12     the record.  Please repeat your answer.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not so used to this.  I

14     apologise.

15             Of course, everything that's happening in the zone of

16     responsibility of a unit, here specifically the Zvornik Brigade, is in

17     the responsibility of the commander of the Zvornik Brigade, and if he

18     were to decide to use these military police forces, as has been stated,

19     he should have given them a specific task and after that received a

20     report of what has been done.  After that, he could thank them and send

21     them back to their original unit.  So it's the commander of the

22     Zvornik Brigade who is responsible for everything in the zone of

23     responsibility of that brigade and not the commander of the military

24     police battalion or the commander of the East Bosnia Corps.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Let us take another look at page 9,

Page 13047

 1     command and control of the military police, and answer only the questions

 2     that I'm about to ask about paragraph 2 of item 13.  You can see that

 3     second paragraph.  Here's my question:  Do officers of the security organ

 4     with regard to the military police have the same authority as the

 5     officers of the arms and services with regard to those arms and services,

 6     that is, only an advisory authority?

 7        A.   Well, I can provide an extensive answer.  The chief of artillery

 8     proposes how the artillery should be used and the commander accepts or

 9     refuses, and the same goes for the commander of the military police, et

10     cetera.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I see that we have

13     the document in e-court.  I think it would be helpful to read into the

14     record what it says specifically, because I don't see in the English

15     translation of the document in the second paragraph under 13 the word

16     "advisory" anywhere.  So maybe either the witness can explain it, or we

17     can have that read into the -- into the record so that it's clear what

18     he's responding to.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Todorovic, would you please read the second

20     paragraph of item 13 into the record.  Then we will receive the correct

21     translation.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "When controlling a military police

23     unit, the officer in charge of the security organ from paragraph 1 of

24     this item has the same rights and duties as the officers of the arms and

25     services of military units and institutions in controlling the units of

Page 13048

 1     the arms and services."

 2             And the third paragraph elaborates that more specifically.  Since

 3     the military police also has a traffic police component, which is a

 4     platoon or a company where it is the assistant commander for traffic who

 5     gets involved, which means that I as the security organ propose how the

 6     general component of the military police unit is to be used whereas the

 7     use of the traffic police component is something where the chief or,

 8     rather, the assistant for traffic police gets involved.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I think that was enough.

10     Mr. Tolimir should continue with his questioning.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Tell us, Mr. Todorovic, with regard to the military police unit,

14     does the chief of the traffic service have the same rights as you with

15     regard to --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the latter part

17     of his question.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the last

19     part of the question, and I would like to ask the witness to wait until

20     the transcript stops.  It's very difficult, but as you are using the same

21     language, it's absolutely necessary to pause.

22             Mr. Tolimir, please repeat your question.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Does, with regard to the traffic component of the military

Page 13049

 1     police, the chief of the traffic police have the same rights as the

 2     organ, security organ, of the corps command?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Yes, which means that the traffic organ and the corps command,

 4     and in any other command, exercises professional control as well as

 5     training, equipping of that part of the military police whose duty it is

 6     to control traffic.  He proposes its use during the performance of

 7     certain tasks, the same way as I do.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Does the same principle that the

 9     security organ only has the right to give professional direction, does

10     this -- is this regulated in the rules of service of the security organs?

11        A.   Yes.  One of the tasks, I believe it's the fourth or the fifth

12     task in the rules of service of the security organs, is the control of

13     the military police activities.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Let's see D203, page 10 in Serbian and page 11 in

15     English.  We're interested in item 23 of the rules of service of the

16     security organs in the armed forces, and this provision regulates the

17     same matter of -- as the rules of the military police do.  Thank you.  We

18     can see item 23 in both Serbian and English.  It's item 23 of the rules

19     of service of the security organs in the armed forces.

20             I quote:

21             "An officer of a security organ of a command unit, institution,

22     or staff of the armed forces provides specialist management for a

23     military police unit.  He recommends the use of the military police unit

24     to the senior officer of the command, unit, institution or staff, and he

25     is responsible to him for the state of the activity of the unit."

Page 13050

 1             Now I'll continue to read the second paragraph:

 2             "In controlling the military police unit, the security organ

 3     officer under paragraph 1 of this item has the same rights and duties as

 4     officers of the arms and services of commands, units, institutions and

 5     staffs of the armed forces in controlling units of the arms and services

 6     of those commands, units, institutions or staffs."

 7             My question based on this is does the security organ have the

 8     right to command military police units, or does it only have the right to

 9     control them?

10        A.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just wait a moment.  No problem.  Just wait a

12     moment, and I would like to ask Mr. Tolimir to repeat the number of this

13     document so that we have it clear on the record.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It is D203.  The title

15     is rules of service of --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just wanted to have the document number.  Now,

17     please, Mr. Todorovic, provide us with your answer.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 23 is identical to the item we

19     saw a moment ago in the rules of service of the military police.  There

20     shouldn't be any difference.  The officer in charge of the security organ

21     manages, supervises and controls, whereas command lies with the

22     commander.  Commands are issued by commanders, and chiefs and assistant

23     commanders are in charge of checking whether the orders have been

24     implemented correctly.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 13051

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Since you were at different positions

 2     in security organs at the level of brigade, corps, administration, and

 3     the Main Staff for a number of years, please explain to the Chamber what

 4     is a difference between command and control?  Perhaps you can clarify

 5     that so as -- so as not to get confused by the two terms.  Since my legal

 6     assistant tells me that "rukovodjenje" is translated as "control".  So

 7     can you explain the difference between command, control, and managing?

 8        A.   Command or commanding is a method applied to directly manage

 9     certain units or institutions of the army of the -- of the FRY or any

10     other army, including the -- the previous JNA.  So there is a right to

11     engage directly and make direct decisions on the activities of a unit,

12     including personnel issues.  In this way, the commander in question

13     directly imposes his decisions on his subordinates.

14             Control, as the second term, includes professional or specialist

15     assistance to the commander.  The commander, of course, cannot be

16     specialised in all the areas, starting with the military police, the

17     engineering corps, the nuclear defence units, et cetera.  That is why he

18     has his assistants -- assistants, to provide professional work and

19     guidance, as well as training for those units and the way that they ought

20     to be used.

21             The third term used is "kontrola".  As of the moment the

22     commander issues a task, there is a process of control in place to

23     oversee the implementation of those orders.  If there is a need for

24     correction of the order, then this is made based on the situation found

25     and based on recommendations made by the professional or specialist

Page 13052

 1     organs.  This can also be done if the commander himself realises that he

 2     had ordered something which cannot be implemented.  Then he will amend

 3     his order, and he will be included personally so as to see that the task

 4     is correctly implemented.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask you to repeat the three terms.  You

 6     explained the three terms Mr. Tolimir was asking you about.  Could you

 7     please repeat only the three terms without an explanation, because we

 8     have a translation issue here.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Komandovanje," command;

10     "Rukovodjenje," control; and "kontrola".

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Gajic.

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I dislike doing this

14     [In English] The term "control" have to be translated in Serbian

15     "kontrola".  Directing, managing is something what is in Serbian

16     "rukovodjenje".  [Interpretation] We are discussing technical terms.

17     However, we have repeated errors in the transcript.  So as to avoid

18     translating "kontrola" with "control," whereas the word "rukovodjenje" is

19     constantly being translated as "kontrola."

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  It's been a long-standing

21     practice of the CLSS to translate "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje" as

22     command and control, C2.  It is standard NATO terminology.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is true.  We have dealt with this problem

24     several times here in this trial, and we will not solve this problem

25     today I'm sure, but we know what we have to do in future.

Page 13053

 1             I think it's time for the second break.  We will resume at 1.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, I see you on your feet.

 5             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll be

 6     brief, and I will abide by what you said, that we definitely won't deal

 7     with the issue today.  However, at page 62, lines 21 to 23, in the

 8     interpreter's note, this seems to be the crux of the problem, that when

 9     translating expert terms of the VRS and the VJ, corresponding NATO

10     terminology is used, which is a completely differently structured

11     military organisation.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is your position.

13             Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just briefly, Mr. President.  I don't really

15     think this is a problem, and CLSS has worked this out a long time ago.

16     When they say command and control, that is the correct English

17     interpretation, and the term "control" in English includes managing and

18     some of the other terms mentioned by Mr. Gajic.  The term "kontrola" in

19     Serbian doesn't and that's where the problem is, but if he looks at the

20     term "control" in English as a broader managing term, then I think we're

21     fine, and we're of course working with him on any documents where he

22     thinks management might be a better word for control, but I don't really

23     think it's a problem.  We fundamentally agree with these things.  It's

24     just a -- it's just a word issue.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's nothing we have to judge about

Page 13054

 1     today.

 2             Mr. Gajic.

 3             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence reserves

 4     the right to engage in experts should such problems persist who will deal

 5     with the issue, hopefully.  Of course this will take a lot of time, but I

 6     believe things need to be cleared up so as to have everything in a

 7     uniform way, because expert terms are translated differently.  I know

 8     there is no perfect solution, but when we are discussing technical terms,

 9     there must be standard practice.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that.

11             May I, before we continue with the cross-examination of the

12     witness, ask the Defence if they will be in a position to respond to the

13     urgent Prosecution motion for protective measures for the witness to

14     come.  We received this motion this morning, and I think it's really an

15     urgent motion.  We would be happy to receive your response as soon as

16     possible orally in the courtroom.  It's not necessary to do that now, but

17     I would like -- kindly invite you to respond.

18             Mr. Gajic.

19             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we could do this right

20     away.  We have no objection.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.  The Chamber will

22     issue a decision as soon as possible.  Thank you very much.

23             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on with your cross-examination.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 13055

 1        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, we looked at item 23 concerning the officers of

 2     security organs and commands of institutions and units.  In order to

 3     discuss the gist of the problem and the terms used, I believe we need to

 4     look at the following:  Perhaps you can tell us what the scope of work of

 5     security organs is and whether NATO terminology could be applied.  Let's

 6     look at page 5 in the B/C/S and 6 in the English version.

 7             We see the title, "The competence and tasks of security organs."

 8     And "The competence of security organs".

 9             We are still reading from the rules of service.

10             "1.  Security organs as specialist organs of commands, units,

11     institutions and staffs of the armed forces, carry out documents of state

12     security that are placed within their competence by the law and

13     regulations issued pursuant to the law ..."

14             Can different terminology be used when discussing laws and

15     regulations we had to abide by as parts of the security structure?

16        A.   It cannot be interpreted differently to what it says here.

17     Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with any other terminology, because I had

18     not had occasion to study similar laws and regulations on the work of

19     units and services of other armed forces.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  In the course of your work, could you

21     deviate from the scope accorded to you based on the laws and regulations

22     in order to discover and detect activities of the enemy solely based on

23     the use of different terminology, or did you have to abide strictly by

24     the word of the laws and regulations?

25        A.   I did not deviate, and there was no need to.  This is what I

Page 13056

 1     studied, and I had these rules in front of me, including the rules of

 2     work of security organs and the rules of work of the military police.

 3     All security organs and military police organs of East Bosnia Corps had

 4     the same rules.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Could we look at page 7 in English and 8 in Serbian.

 6     Could we see the -- yes, this side of this page 13.  Let us look at

 7     sub-item (b).  This is a very important issue.  Actually, it is (d)

 8     "performing special administration services for military police units."

 9     And then (e) "operations that precede the initiation of criminal

10     proceedings ..."

11             What does it mean, "operation preceding initiation of criminal

12     proceedings?"

13        A.   I'm not sure we're looking at the same thing.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir referred to items (d) and (e).  You

15     can see the page where the clauses are located.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has to do with the following:

17     If there is -- there are reasons to suspect that a crime was committed in

18     a unit of the army, security organs gather initial information.  In

19     further procedure, they can partially or in full engage members of the

20     military police.  In the military police battalions and military police

21     companies, there used to be departments for criminal or investigative

22     measures with the aim of documenting and preparing evidence.  In that

23     case, the security organ issues a specific task to the unit commander,

24     the commander of the military unit, to act specifically.  If it concerned

25     stolen weapons, an on-site investigation had to be carried out, reports

Page 13057

 1     drafted and evidence secured so as to continue any criminal procedure

 2     with a view to identifying and sanctioning the perpetrators.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  When you look at item (e) which begins

 5     with the words "operations that precede the initiation of criminal

 6     proceedings," do investigative organs have the right in profession -- in

 7     the professional sense to direct the actions of the military police unit

 8     which was tasked with documenting and preserving evidence?

 9        A.   Yes.  In all serious offences, the security organ is duty-bound

10     to inform a military court and in such cases an investigating judge is

11     appointed.  Whether he would be in charge of the pre-trial procedure

12     depended on the gravity of crime.  If the crime resulted in deaths, then

13     it is obligatory that the investigating judge is in charge of documenting

14     and securing evidence in investigation.  In less serious crimes, he can

15     authorise members of the military police to gather evidence and document

16     its existence in order to prove that a crime was committed and to ensure

17     that the perpetrators are identified.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  We have just spoken about the

19     investigative organs and their right to engage the organs of the military

20     police to document a crime from item 7(e).  I will now ask you to take a

21     look at page 13 in English and page 11 in Serbian and tell us how the

22     methods of the security organs can be applied to carry out tasks from

23     items 6 and 7.  We have just read out 7(e).  Thank you.

24             Thank you.  Now we can see Chapter III in both languages.  The

25     second paragraph of item 26 reads -- or, rather, the first item reads:

Page 13058

 1             "Pursuant to his powers under the federal law ..." and I won't go

 2     on reading, so there must be a legal foundation.

 3             The second paragraph reads:

 4             "In carrying out duties and tasks under items 6 and 7(A) and (F)

 5     of these rules, JNA security organs may apply methods and means, and also

 6     measures and operations that deviate from the principle of the

 7     inviolability of secrecy of letters and other means of communications in

 8     accordance with regulation in paragraph 1 of this item."

 9             Can you explain to the Trial Chamber in which situations the

10     security organs of the military police have the right to act to -- to act

11     contrary to the law and use such methods and means?

12        A.   These are situations when intelligence is received that there are

13     grounds to suspect that preparations are underway for the perpetration of

14     a crime or when the perpetration is possible, given the circumstances.

15     Based on this initial intelligence, the security organ drafts a note and

16     proposes the choice of a certain -- certain method to collect concrete

17     information to either confirm the suspicion or reject it.  Only when the

18     security organ receives approval from the competent authority to use the

19     method in question which approval is granted for a certain period of

20     time.  For example, inspecting letters whose recipient is a person that

21     is suspected to be in connection with some criminal offence, then the

22     secrecy of private correspondence can be infringed upon from the 1st of

23     May through the 15th of June, for example.  So a deadline is set by which

24     it must be established whether there are grounds for suspicion or not.

25             The application of these methods require approval from the

Page 13059

 1     competent officer or commander in an army or, in some cases, approval

 2     from a court.  With that, the approval of these institutions, the

 3     security organ had the right to do the following:  Interview members of

 4     the armed forces, check their ID, check their personal information in

 5     various files such as birth registers and so on in order to avoid errors,

 6     and -- whereas all other methods required approval and a time-frame.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Please tell us, did the investigating

 8     judge --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the question.

10     The interpreter didn't understand.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The interpreter asked you to repeat your question

12     because he didn't understand it, Mr. Tolimir.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I asked

14     Mr. Todorovic if in case of serious criminal offences that are difficult

15     to document, did the investigating judge entrust the security organs of

16     the military police with conducting entire investigation in order to

17     document these criminal offences such as, for example, theft of

18     armaments, ammunition, or other criminal offences against the armed

19     forces.  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there have been such

21     instances, several, and incidents of aggravated theft of weapons were

22     treated for months or even years, and the security organs were authorised

23     to try and reveal the perpetrators of these crimes and recover the stolen

24     armaments, and that included inspections on the ground, checking the

25     soldier and his relatives and the area where he hails from, and so on and

Page 13060

 1     so forth.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Let us go to page 5 in Serbian and

 4     page 6 in English.  So --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.

 6             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness.  Just a very short

 7     question.  This permission, this authorisation that was given to the

 8     security organ, was it given once and that was good for all the time, or

 9     was it case-per-case depending on the suspect and depending on the

10     accused?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was specific for each incident

12     on a case-by-case basis, and it was always specified what is expected

13     as -- as the result of the application of this method of work.  So it

14     wasn't just arbitrary and all-encompassing.

15             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Mindua.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, we are in a position here to have to stress often

20     that security organs are professional organs.  So take a look at item 5,

21     which says the following -- or, rather, item 1:

22             "Security organs, as specialist organs of commands, units,

23     institutions and staffs of the armed forces, carry out duties of state

24     security that are placed within their competence by the law and

25     regulations issued pursuant to the law ..."

Page 13061

 1             Please answer the following question:  Are they professional

 2     organs only within the framework of those tasks of commands, units,

 3     institutions and staffs when it comes to carrying out jobs of state

 4     security?

 5        A.   They chiefly do or carry out tasks that you have cited within

 6     their units or the commands of their units.  If during their work they

 7     collect information that pertain to some other units or to undermining

 8     the economic resources or political powers, then they forward that to

 9     their superior security organ for that organ to inform the competent

10     authority that is more directly affected by that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Let's take a look at pages 8 and 9 in English and

12     page 8 in Serbian.  We're interested in item 12.  Thank you.

13             So now you can see item 12.  It says:

14             "The security organs report on their work to their immediate

15     superiors and the security organs of superior commands, units,

16     institutions or staffs in accordance with the provision of these rules."

17             Here is my question:  Tell us, based on this, who these superior

18     organs or the superior military officers of superior commands, or units,

19     institutions or staffs are?

20        A.   In my case, my superior officer was the corps commander, or to

21     name him, General Simic.  And the superior organ was the chief of

22     security sector of the General Staff of the VRS.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Take another look at line two.  It says:  "The

24     security organs of superior commands."  Are these the superior organs or

25     the organs of the superior command?  Thank you.

Page 13062

 1        A.   These are the security organs of that command.  My superior

 2     commanding officer is the corps commander.  When it comes to professional

 3     guidance and control, which was disputed before the break, my superior

 4     organ is the chief of the sector of security and intelligence of the

 5     General Staff of the VRS.

 6        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, let us take a look at page 10 in English and page

 7     9 in Serbian.  Item 16, which reads -- once you can see it, I'll read it

 8     out.  Here it is.  I quote item 16 from "Management of security organs.

 9             "The security organ is directly subordinated to the commanding

10     officer of the command, unit, institution or staff of the armed forces in

11     whose strength it is placed in the establishment, and it is responsible

12     to that officer for its work ..."

13             In your particular case, to whom were the security organs in the

14     corps responsible for their work?  To which officers, commanders?

15        A.   As I have already answered in the previous question, I was

16     responsible for my work and the state of security and intelligence

17     support to the corps commander, or more specifically, to the commander of

18     the East Bosnia Corps, General Simic.  The security organs from my

19     department were under my immediate jurisdiction.  I had the right of

20     guidance with regard to them or tasking them with individual tasks.  The

21     security organs in the brigades of the East Bosnia Corps were subordinate

22     to the commander and reported exclusively to him, to the brigade

23     commander, and my -- their relationship toward me was the same as my

24     relationship toward the security organ and the superior command.  Just as

25     I was duty-bound to report and apply for approval from the chief of the

Page 13063

 1     security and intelligence sector of the Main Staff, in the same way the

 2     security organs in the brigades of the East Bosnia Corps were duty-bound

 3     to report to me and ask me for approval or forward some things for

 4     approval because my level wasn't authorised to give approval for the

 5     application of some special methods applied by the security organs.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Let's take a look at page 16 in Serbian and page 23

 7     in English.  Thank you.  We're interested in article 57 so we can see

 8     what the level of the security administration does.  Thank you.  Thank

 9     you.  We can see 57.  We also have it in English.  It says:

10             "The Security Administration of the SSNO (hereinafter 'Security

11     Administration') performs duties as prescribed by these rules and other

12     regulations."

13             Here's my question.  Does it perform duties as prescribed by

14     rules and other regulations, or others as well?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, did you understand the question?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I was looking at the

17     transcript.  I didn't see the thank you part, because that's my -- that's

18     my prompt to start my answer.

19             Well, as you have read out, all security organs carried out their

20     duties exclusively based on these rules of service and auxiliary

21     regulations following from these rules and were issued and approved by

22     the competent state authority.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Let's look at the second paragraph of

25     57.

Page 13064

 1             "The Security Administration provides specialist management for

 2     security organs in JNA commands ..."

 3             My question is this:  Does this specialist management refer only

 4     to matters from the scope of work of the state security?

 5        A.   Yes.  State security and, if needed, it also includes matters

 6     pertaining to the military police and their engagement.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Todorovic, let us look at item -- well, other

 8     items.  Let's look at item 58:

 9             "The Security Administration provides specialist direction and

10     co-ordination for the work of the security organs of the Territorial

11     Defence ... "

12             59:  "Individual counter-intelligence cases of particular

13     interest and importance to the armed forces," which is part of their

14     scope.

15             Next, 60.  Please turn the page.

16             "The Security Administration is managed by the chief who is

17     responsible to the Federal Secretary for National Defence ... "

18             61:  "The security administration is responsible for the

19     operative processing of all ... intelligence centres."

20             In paragraph 2 of 61, it reads:

21             "The Security Administration co-ordinates matters under paragraph

22     1 of this item with matters of the State Security Service of the federal

23     administration organ competent for the interior ..."

24             Can you explain what this refers to, these matters under

25     paragraph 1, and what does it have to do with the State Security Service?

Page 13065

 1        A.   This has to do with detecting and documenting intelligence

 2     activity conducted by foreign armed forces and their services aimed at

 3     units and institutions of the JNA.  Such centres and individuals were

 4     usually embedded in diplomatic, consular, and economic missions which

 5     legally existed in the territory of the former SFRY.  If these were

 6     activities targeting members of the JNA, then it fell under the

 7     competence of the security administration of the JNA.  However, most

 8     frequently there was a combination where interest was shown for economic,

 9     political, and other areas of interest.  That is why co-ordination was

10     necessary, which had to be well harmonised in order to carry out work

11     jointly with members of the State Security Service.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  You will recall having mentioned

13     Mr. Radovic in your interview, who was with the State Security Service

14     and their centre in Bijeljina.  Can you tell the Chamber whether in

15     keeping with the rules and regulations you -- were you duty-bound to

16     co-operate with state security bodies in the field?

17        A.   Yes, I was.  I had a fair professional co-operation with

18     Mr. Radovic.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did the rules foresee that you could exchange

20     information with organs of akin services of the State Security Service

21     and that this should be a two-way road in terms of exchange?

22        A.   Yes.  It was envisaged in -- by the rules before us, specifically

23     in one of its items.  It specifies what security organ levels and what

24     information can be exchanged with akin services.  Such a service was also

25     the State Security Service.

Page 13066

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Let us look at item 67 of the rules

 2     before us.  It enumerates all the competencies of the security

 3     administration.  We'll read out only the first sentence of each item.

 4             "The security administration is responsible for specialist

 5     training ...

 6             Under (a), education; (b) programming and provision of materials.

 7             (C) monitors specialist training and research.

 8             68, research and publishing.  69, equipping.  72:  "The security

 9     administration prepares regulations on the work of security organs and

10     the military police ..." and so on and so forth.

11             Tell the Chamber whether while you were in the security

12     administration you had to abide strictly by the laws and regulations when

13     engaging in contact with anyone in the JNA who was not a member of

14     security organs or with citizens or anyone else in the society.

15        A.   Yes, I had to.  Of course, it refers to my professional

16     specialist work and does not include private affairs.  Even in the domain

17     of private relationships, it was somewhat limited when contact with

18     foreigners was concerned, but that was prescribed by a different rule.

19     Such connections or relationships had to be documented.  Anyone, in other

20     words, engaged in the work of security organs had to abide by the

21     regulations stemming from this -- from these rules, as well as by other

22     general military regulation regulating the work, life, and conduct of all

23     members of the armed forces.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we should come to an end for today.

25     Can you please tell us your estimation for the length of your

Page 13067

 1     cross-examination tomorrow?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We have

 3     announced the time we would require to examine the witness.  We will

 4     abide by that limit, but if necessary, we may shorten the

 5     cross-examination.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not the question I had put to you.  We

 7     have to adjourn for today, and we'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in

 8     this Courtroom number II.  We adjourn.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day

11                           of April, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.