Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13068

 1                           Wednesday, 20 April 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             Before we start with the witness, the Chamber would like to

 7     return to the pending admission of certain numbers of pages of

 8     Momir Nikolic's interview with the Prosecution, which, after instruction

 9     by the Chamber on 12th of April, the Defence uploaded their 65 ter

10     numbers 1D730 and 1D731 respectively.

11             The Chamber grants admission of 65 ter numbers 1D730 and 1D731

12     into evidence.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D730 shall be

14     assigned Exhibit D220.  65 ter document 1D731 shall be assigned

15     Exhibit D221.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             With respect to the pending admission of pages selected from

18     65 ter 1D211, a chapter of a book by Cees Wiebs, uploaded by the Defence

19     as 1D735 and used with Witness Rupert Smith, the Chamber notes that on

20     28th of March, 2011, the Defence submitted it would seek to tender some

21     15 pages of this larger document.  This selection of pages by the

22     Defence, now uploaded as 1D735, in fact, amounts to 21 pages.

23             Mr. Gajic, could you please explain this discrepancy.

24             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we reviewed the

25     document.  And taking out some of the pages would result in having the

Page 13069

 1     same amount in the end, if we tried to remove the left-hand side of the

 2     page and leave the right-hand side, and this would also result in a text

 3     that would be difficult to read.  We believe that those additional five

 4     pages in e-court does not require much space or time to read.  On the

 5     contrary, the text would be easily legible and the parties will have an

 6     opportunity to see what references were for the document and what were

 7     the starting points in order to analyse those parts that the Defence is

 8     interested in.  It would simply be useful, we believe, to have the

 9     document uploaded in this integral shape.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With this explanation by the Defence, this

11     document will be received as an exhibit.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D735 shall be

14     assigned Exhibit D222.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

16             If there are no additional matters to be raised, then the witness

17     should be brought in, please.

18             In the meantime, I would like to ask Mr. Tolimir, and would like

19     to invite him, to consider this way of examination of the witness:  You

20     know, the document you have quoted a lot yesterday, the regulations for

21     the military police, are in evidence already.  They were tendered by the

22     Defence, they are a Defence exhibit, and we can use this.  There is no

23     need to quote it, lengthy, into the transcript, as have you done earlier

24     with another witness.  I think this is really a waste of time.  You are,

25     of course, entitled to put questions to the witness about the content and

Page 13070

 1     his knowledge about the content of this document, but there's no need to

 2     read and read and read again.  We have it on this transcript, we have it

 3     in evidence, and, therefore, you should shorten your -- this kind of

 4     question.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to invite both parties to speed up

 7     and to try to finish with Mr. Todorovic today.

 8             Please sit down.  Good morning, Mr. Todorovic.  Welcome back to

 9     the courtroom.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you as well.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to remind you that the affirmation to tell

12     the truth you made at the beginning of your testimony still applies.

13                      WITNESS:  MILENKO TODOROVIC [Resumed]

14                      [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.

16             Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Gajic turn his microphone off,

18     please.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, please turn off -- thank you.

20             Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to greet everyone, and may

22     these proceedings be concluded in keeping with God's will, not my own.

23     And I'd like to wish the witness a pleasant stay in the courtroom.

24             Mr. President, I had to go through the Rules of Service of

25     security organs because Mr. Obradovic, who was the other witness through

Page 13071

 1     whom it was tendered, could only address the command part, and this

 2     witness could address the work of the security organs.  The same applies

 3     to D202, which was also introduced through Ljubo Obradovic.  He only

 4     addressed the command part, whereas this witness will speak to the work

 5     of security organs, by your leave.  He mentioned yesterday that he had to

 6     co-ordinate his work with the regulations and rules that were in place.

 7             I would like to have D202 shown in e-court, which is the

 8     Rules of Service of the land forces in peacetime.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, to avoid any misunderstanding, this

10     was not the problem I raised.  It is a time-consuming exercise to read

11     all these articles and paragraphs of this document again into the

12     transcript.  You may put questions in that respect, of course.  This is

13     your right, and that is the purpose of the cross-examination.  But please

14     avoid time-consuming reading.

15             The document is now on the screen.  Please continue.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   We can see the regulations, Mr. Todorovic.  I wanted to refer to

19     page 3, general provisions.  I will read from paragraph 2 of Article 1,

20     what are the competencies --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness [sic] please wait for the

22     English page to appear.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   "According to the regulations, the definition of responsibilities

25     shall comprise the rights, obligations, and scope of work of command

Page 13072

 1     organs and officers of these organs in the execution of the stipulated

 2     work and tasks."

 3             You, as a security organ in the East Bosnian Corps, did you only

 4     have the rights and obligations from the scope of work of security organs

 5     or did you also have certain duties to undertake regarding command or the

 6     issue of command?

 7        A.   I had rights, duties, and obligations to perform tasks prescribed

 8     for the work of organs and departments of security and intelligence

 9     organs in the corps command.  Occasionally, I was also included in the

10     work of some other bodies in performance of different tasks, but these

11     mainly entailed brief periods of time as a member of certain commissions.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Let us look at Article 4, paragraph 4,

13     which clearly indicates the following -- that is, the last paragraph of

14     Article 4.  It's actually the third paragraph on this page.  It reads --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think you didn't understand what I

16     was telling you at the beginning.

17             I think there's no need to read and read and read these articles

18     into the transcript.  The witness may have a look on it; and put a

19     question to the witness what is -- about his interpretation of this

20     article, about his knowledge, how it worked at the relevant time, but

21     please avoid reading, reading, reading.  It's really a time-consuming

22     exercise.

23             Please continue.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             This precisely has to do with what was discussed in

Page 13073

 1     examination-in-chief.  It was alleged that I took over responsibilities

 2     of another organ.  That is why I want to ask the witness this.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Having in mind this paragraph 4, which I won't read, as

 5     instructed by the Judge, does a command organ have the right to assume

 6     responsibilities of a superior or a subordinate organ, or does it have

 7     the right to delegate some of its own powers to it?

 8        A.   In principle, no.  In exceptional situations, a corps commander

 9     may authorise someone else to act on his behalf in the performance of

10     certain tasks, but this has to be within a specified, short time-frame.

11        Q.   Is this exception regulated by another rule?

12        A.   It is regulated by the Rules of Service in the armed forces, that

13     is to say, in the JNA.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Look at Article 6, paragraph 1, please, which

15     confirms clearly what you said a number of times yesterday.  Here we can

16     see who has the exclusive right of command.

17             Who has that right in the units of the VRS?

18        A.   The exclusive right of command -- apologies.  The exclusive right

19     of command in JNA units, and later on VJ units and VRS units, is with the

20     commanders in question.  They are responsible for all their subordinates.

21     They command their subordinate units as well as those units that were

22     attached to them or used as reinforcements.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us look at page 6 in the

Page 13074

 1     English and 7 in the B/C/S version.  These are special provisions;

 2     Article 9, paragraph 2.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   It states who commands and controls subordinate units and

 5     institutions?

 6        A.   As I said, the right of command is an exclusive right of

 7     commanders to order commands to their subordinate commanders, which

 8     includes a clear implementation of tasks and orders.  And in the JNA, the

 9     VJ, and the VRS, it was based on the principle of singleness of command

10     and subordination.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I believe you need the next page in B/C/S,

12     because Mr. Tolimir asked for paragraph 2 of Article 9.  Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   We can see Article 6.  Actually, it is item 6 of this article.

16             My question is:  Who has the exclusive right of control of the

17     Security Service in the VRS and the FRY, according to the regulations?

18        A.   As I said a few times yesterday, security organs are managed by

19     commanders in whose formations they are to be found, depending on whether

20     it's at the level of administration, department, or else -- or something

21     else.  Specialist direction is provided by the security organ of the

22     superior command.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone, please.

Page 13075

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 7 in the Serbian and 8 in the

 2     English version, please.  It is item 10 of this article.  Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   My question is this:  Do all subordinate organs in the command of

 5     a corps or brigade have to be commanded by the commander, exclusively, or

 6     can they receive commands from some other organs as well?

 7        A.   The commander is responsible for the overall situation.  As for

 8     the various departments, they are directed, controlled, and they propose

 9     measures to the commander, as well as further education, by the chiefs of

10     arms and services.

11        Q.   Do chiefs of arms and services have the right to manage or

12     provide specialist assistance to the respective organs in keeping with

13     commanders' instructions?

14        A.   The organs of services control and direct the work in their

15     sphere; specifically, the Security Service organ controls and directs the

16     work of the organs of the military police.  If there is a need to

17     intervene because of a found situation, he proposes measures to the

18     commander, and the commander then issues an order that these -- or that

19     specific actions be executed.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 17 in the

22     Serbian and page 14 in the English.  This is Article 14, the general

23     paragraph of this Article 14, and you can see it here.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   My question is this:  The organs for the arms, do they have the

Page 13076

 1     same powers as the security organs at the corps commands?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Yes, they do.  Just like the artillery chief is responsible for

 3     the artillery units within the corps command, in the same way the

 4     security chief is responsible and has duties vis-à-vis combat readiness

 5     of the military police units.  He proposes, as I already said before,

 6     measures to improve, stimulate, equip those forces.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 8 in both

 9     languages.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And my question, after you look at the text, is this:  You spoke

12     about that before.  When the commander is absent, who then is in command

13     of the brigade and the other subordinate corps units?

14             We can see this item now.  Actually, we can see what Article 10

15     says on page 10, I think it is.  Okay, it's not -- we're not seeing it

16     right now.  Maybe you can switch.

17             When the commander is absent, who is in command of the

18     Security Service and the other units of the corps?

19        A.   As opposed to the other units, the artillery, engineers, the

20     ABHO, and so on, when the commander is absent, the only person, pursuant

21     to the general issues of security, can be led by the deputy commander or

22     his chief.  He can also be represented for a short period of time by

23     somebody else authorised to do so by the commander, and they can command

24     the service only on general matters and not where the security and

25     intelligence matters are concerned.

Page 13077

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look at page 19 in

 2     the Serbian and page 16 in the English, and can we see what the

 3     responsibilities are of the organ for logistics.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   You were the security and intelligence chief in your corps.

 6     Could you please tell us what the responsibilities were?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure whether it's the

 8     logistics or the security organ that the accused refers to here.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please help us to clarify.  What are

10     you talking about?  At the moment, we have Article 17 on the screen,

11     "Organ for Intelligence Work," but you were referring to another.  In

12     your last question, you were asking about the organ for logistics.  I

13     don't see the link.  The way we see it here on page 9, lines 20,

14     "responsibilities ... of the organ for logistics."  Perhaps it's a

15     mistranslation.  I have no idea.  Please clarify that and repeat your

16     question.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   My question to you, Mr. Todorovic, is:  Since at the same time

20     you were the organ for intelligence and the organ for security, can you

21     please tell us, what does the Intelligence and Reconnaissance Service at

22     the command do?

23        A.   Well, to avoid reading, because the presiding Judge has already

24     warned us about that and I think everyone has the text in front of them,

25     it is precisely what it states in Article 17, without any need to add or

Page 13078

 1     take anything away.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Can you please tell us if the

 3     intelligence organ has the right to command the reconnaissance units that

 4     are part of it or not?

 5        A.   It does not have the right to command, but they can write orders

 6     for intelligence engagement, regulating the engagement of the

 7     reconnaissance units, and this order would then be signed or approved by

 8     the corps commander.  They are monitoring or observing the work, and

 9     intervene in case that is required.

10             Again, I emphasise:  Command, in the first, second, and the third

11     armies that I was a member of, is done according to the principle of

12     singleness of command.  There is one commander, and he makes all the

13     decisions.  His assistants propose things, and then he would entirely

14     approve them, perhaps correct and then approve them, or not approve these

15     proposals.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Does that mean that the security organ

17     only has the right to propose to the commander but does not have the

18     right to use and command, in itself?

19        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Precisely.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at 35 in

21     Serbian and 35 in English.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   And now my question is this:  The security organ, and that was

24     what you were doing, can you please tell us what the function of the

25     security organ is in the corps command?  What is it in the corps command?

Page 13079

 1     Thank you.

 2        A.   The security organ in the corps command, as it states here, is a

 3     professional, specialised organ in order to organise and implement

 4     security measures, so I don't need to read further from the text.  Its

 5     primary assignments are intelligence and counter-intelligence ones.  And

 6     if needed, I can explain what the intelligence tasks are.  Then it is

 7     engaged on general security measures and also the manner in which the

 8     military police and their units can be used in the best and the most

 9     effective way.  And also it is responsible for matters of training and

10     exercise.  That would be that, in brief.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Can we please look at

12     pages 31 in Serbian and in the English.  Thank you.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   My question is:  Since we have now seen what the professional

15     organ, as you have emphasised here, does, can you please tell us, what

16     does the security organ states in the command, as a professional organ?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're not looking at the correct

18     page here.  We need to look at Article 29, item 9.  We're looking at

19     Article 26.  I'm sorry, I did not make the correct reference for the

20     e-court.  Can we ask the e-court to show in the Serbian, please, page 36.

21             And now we see it.  Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Item 9.  My question is:  The security organ in the command

24     security organs, is it just a professional unit, a organ of the

25     commander, or does it have any other powers or responsibilities?  Thank

Page 13080

 1     you.

 2        A.   Other than its tasks and duties within the corps command, and I

 3     already referred to them a number of times, saying that it is responsible

 4     for the situation, in the professional sense, the situation in the

 5     military police unit, then it is responsible for professional direction

 6     and for providing assistance to the subordinate security organs in the

 7     member units as well as the units of the military police.  That is that

 8     parallel line of professional direction and control of organs of the

 9     military police from the top down to the lowest units.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  And along this specialist line, to

11     whom is this person reporting to, to which person?  The security organ,

12     to whom does it report to for the specialist area of its work?  Which

13     superior does that organ report to along the specialist line?

14        A.   The specialist management is subject to control by the superior

15     security organ, meaning that it ultimately reports to the Main Staff of

16     the Army of Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   Sir, this is the rules on the land forces operation in peacetime,

18     so is that organ responsible to the commander or to the superior

19     commander?  Thank you.

20        A.   I'm sorry, I fail to understand the essence.  Thus, the security

21     organ is responsible for its overall work to the commander, its commander

22     in whose unit it is.  As for this specialist directing or managing --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

24     witness's answer.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the end of your answer.

Page 13081

 1     It was not caught by the interpreters.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The security organ, specifically

 3     speaking about myself, the chief of the Sector for Intelligence and

 4     Security Affairs in the East Bosnia Command, I'm responsible for my

 5     specialist activities to the commander of the East Bosnian Corps.

 6             In my previous answer, I said that according to the specialist

 7     line I am responsible to the chief of the Sector for Intelligence and

 8     Security Command, but this is according to the specialist line, not

 9     according to the command-and-control line.  So I made a slip of the

10     tongue there.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.

12             In that case, I would like to ask to look at D203 once again in

13     order to avoid any confusion, so that it can be understood that both you

14     and I are trying to present the truth.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 8 in the

16     e-court, both in English and Serbian.  Let's look at Article 12 of the

17     document that we're looking at.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you now referring to D203 or

19     D202?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are now calling up 203.  We can

21     see it on the screen.  We can see item 12 on our monitors.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Sir, can I please ask you to read this paragraph 12 and to see

24     what the security -- the command security organs, what their duties are,

25     and what are their responsibilities in relation to their superior

Page 13082

 1     command.

 2        A.   The security organs report to the superior military officers

 3     about their work and to the security organs of the superior command, to

 4     the units or to the staff, pursuant to the provisions of this rule.

 5             You will excuse me, because a little bit earlier I kind of went

 6     to the wrong side.  Had somebody, before I came to testify, indicated

 7     anything like this, I would have gone to the military library in

 8     Belgrade, I would have taken these rules.  I would have looked at them in

 9     a little bit more detail, and then, pursuant to my duties and my rank, I

10     would have been able to be more precise, more specific.  I must admit

11     that I have forgotten the rules a little bit.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  I apologise.  Well, if you can just

13     tell the Trial Chamber, in relation to this paragraph 12, who was the

14     superior officer in your corps and who were the security organs from the

15     superior command?  You can give us their names and their functions.

16     Thank you.

17        A.   My immediate superior to whom I reported and before whom I bore

18     full responsibility, I was duty-bound to be neat and to also execute all

19     my tasks professionally, that person was General Novica Simic, the

20     commander of the East Bosnia Corps.  As for the professional direction,

21     it was the security organ in the superior command, and that was the chief

22     of the Sector for Intelligence and Security Affairs in the Main Staff of

23     the Army of Republika Srpska, General Tolimir.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  As we can see -- I'm actually not

25     going to deal with the rules anymore.

Page 13083

 1             Can we now, please, look at your statement which you provided to

 2     the OTP.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The number is 1D733.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now P2183.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 17 of this

 6     statement, please, lines 10 through 22.  Thank you.  And in English, that

 7     will be on page 18.  Thank you.  The last paragraph in English.  Thank

 8     you.  Could we show -- have the next page in English, please.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   And I would like to ask you about the prison commander or warden,

11     whose name was Djoko Pajic, as we can see in line 3 up here, and you

12     described and talked about him.  Now, my question is this:  Whom did

13     Djoko Pajic report to and whom did he have responsibility to report

14     regarding his carrying out of his duties or tasks assigned?  Thank you.

15        A.   Djoko Pajic and another officer before him were directly

16     responsible to the commander of the East Bosnia Corps, General Simic.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And tell us, briefly, who was their immediate

18     superior officer?  Thank you.

19        A.   The corps commander.

20        Q.   Thank you.  On page 18 of your statement, if we can pull it up,

21     and that's 19 in English, or 20 in English, rather, here you say that

22     this gentleman, Djoko Pajic, and you say that on line 31 and 32, he was

23     the prison or camp warden, and he had within it a squad, a strengthened

24     squad of policemen who were in charge of security.  Now, who was this

25     camp commander, as you mention here, and what -- where were these

Page 13084

 1     military policemen from, what unit were they from?

 2        A.   As I said in the interview, and I stand by that, the commander --

 3     well, actually, I used the word "chief," and I believe that's how it was

 4     translated.  But I don't think I said "chief" at the time.  I think I

 5     used "warden" or "commander"; I'm not sure exactly what the title would

 6     be officially per establishment.  But he was the responsible officer for

 7     this collection centre, whether he was commander or "komandir," and his

 8     name was Djoko Pajic.

 9             Now, before him, for a while, it was Gojko Cekic.  So it is

10     possible, theoretically, that in July and August of that year it was

11     Gojko Cekic, but I'm rather inclined to believe that it was Djoko Pajic

12     and that Gojko Cekic was already on some other assignment.

13             And yesterday, in reply to a question by the Prosecutor about

14     security, I said that the security and the guarding in the collection

15     centre in Batkovic was provided by, as I said here, a strengthened squad.

16     Basically, it would be the same thing, whether you said the strengthened

17     squad or a platoon of some 20 to 25 men who were from a battalion of the

18     military police of the East Bosnia Corps, and they were re-subordinated

19     to the warden or commander of the collection centre.  I'm not exactly

20     sure whether he was defined as a warden or the commander per

21     establishment.  In other words, this strengthened squad, or weak platoon,

22     was from the East Bosnia Corps Battalion, and it was re-subordinated to

23     the warden of the collection centre in Batkovic.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             Can we now see page 20 of your interview, lines 10 through 14.

Page 13085

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, that's page 21, at the

 2     very bottom, and then it goes on to page 22.  Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   The investigator, in the course of the interview, quoted

 5     General Simic's words, his testimony before this Tribunal, and he claimed

 6     that this is what was said, I quote:

 7             "... and then I ordered that the commander of this camp be

 8     arrested and that they be -- that the guards be suspended, that military

 9     policemen be deployed who had undergone the necessary training for this

10     type of mission, guarding prisoners," and so on.

11             And then he goes on and says -- well, I won't go there.

12             So my question is this:  In view of what General Simic said here,

13     and as he testified in the Popovic case, and this was put to you by the

14     investigator, did General Simic, when he arrived, did he actually remove

15     the old commander and put in place this new commander,

16     Djokic [as interpreted], in order to have the collection centre operated

17     in keeping with the regulations and rules?  Thank you.

18        A.   All of this that General Simic testified about was something that

19     happened before I was appointed chief of the intelligence and security

20     organs in the East Bosnia Corps.  I was briefed on this, and, among other

21     things, General Simic also replaced the commander of the military police

22     battalion.  This is what he said here also in this portion of his

23     statement.  And he appointed Major Keserovic as the commander of the

24     military police battalion.  And later on, when the situation became more

25     stable, Keserovic was promoted and assigned to a higher post, while

Page 13086

 1     Captain Vulin, later Major Vulin, was the acting warden, and that's the

 2     person that I found there when I got there.

 3             I also see that "Kizerovic" is mentioned here in this interview,

 4     but his name was actually Keserovic.  S, yes, that's it.

 5             Now, the next step that was taken in order to improve the

 6     situation and make it function properly was to appoint a new commander or

 7     warden of the Batkovic Collection Centre.  The man that General Simic

 8     mentioned, who had escaped or was banished from there, I didn't even

 9     know.

10             Now, the military commander of the collection centre,

11     Lieutenant-Colonel Gojko Cekic, that's the man that I knew, and then

12     later on he moved on to another duty.  And in his place a reserve officer

13     was appointed by the name of Djoko Pajic.  He was a prominent citizen in

14     Bijeljina.

15             Security in the collection centre was provided by the military

16     police, or, rather, by this strengthened squad, or weaker platoon, some

17     20 to 25 military police, with their commander.  And up until this centre

18     was closed down, the commander/"komandir," was a man called

19     Milenko Lujic.

20             Now, when speaking about the way the work was done and conducted

21     in the collection centre in Batkovic and how proper it was, from the time

22     when I was appointed up until the moment when the collection centre was

23     closed down, there were no deviations in the work.

24             I would also like to note the following:  Up until early 1994, or

25     maybe even before the end of 1993, when I arrived in the corps command

Page 13087

 1     and became its member, I proposed to the commander that

 2     Lieutenant-Colonel Petar Jovanovic be transferred from -- who is now

 3     late, because he had a physical disability and he could not really be

 4     very effective in this job because that called for great physical acuity,

 5     that he be reassigned to some less-demanding duty in the corps command

 6     itself, at the headquarters.  And in this conversation that I had with

 7     the corps commander, we came up with this idea that the corps commander

 8     should issue a decision and establish a garrison command which would then

 9     be in charge of garrison duties, including tenancy problems,

10     health-related matters, military prisons, discipline and order, and so

11     on, and that the said Lieutenant-Colonel Petar Jovanovic should be

12     appointed to that duty.

13             And that is what happened, so that the military prison was

14     removed from the barracks, from the barracks compound, which was at the

15     time in the offices of the military police battalion within the barracks

16     compound, and the prison was then moved to Vanekov Mlin, to this other

17     facility, and that's how it was known from there on.

18             To provide security for this prison --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Todorovic, I think you gave a very lengthy

20     explanation with many details, but it was a very short and precise

21     question by Mr. Tolimir.  I think he should have the opportunity to move

22     to the next question.

23             Mr. Tolimir.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  You described now how order was

Page 13088

 1     re-established once Commander Simic arrived there.

 2             Now, please take a look at page 26 of your interview.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, that will be 28,

 4     page 28.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   On page 26, lines 4 through 31, you describe that.  Now, my

 7     question is this:  Were all prisoners of war who were in Batkovic, who

 8     were inmates in the Batkovic Camp, had they all been registered by the

 9     International Committee of the Red Cross?

10        A.   Yes, and I state this with full responsibility.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, were all the prisoners held -- war prisoners

12     held at Vanekov Mlin, were they all registered by the ICRC?

13        A.   I cannot say that with any certainty, when speaking about this

14     facility, because for a brief period in late July and early August, when

15     prisoners of war were brought from the area of responsibility of the

16     Drina Corps, now whether those prisoners of war were registered or not,

17     I'm not sure.  It is possible that they were only interviewed and then

18     just records kept about them within the Drina Corps, itself.

19        Q.   Thank you.  We will ask you specifically about those prisoners

20     that were referred to during the examination-in-chief.

21             Now, the prisoners at Vanekov Mlin, were they registered and were

22     their records kept within the military records or the military police

23     records, the military police that were in charge of the camp?

24        A.   Well, yes, they were, because why -- if they hadn't been, why

25     would then the warden, the prison warden, call me in the middle of the

Page 13089

 1     night and ask that I confirm that the said person was a member of the

 2     security organ and that I should talk to him?

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now I will now ask you about Avdo Palic,

 4     specifically.  Was he registered by the guards at Vanekov Mlin, the

 5     military policemen who were there providing security, and was he in their

 6     records?

 7        A.   My answer is the same as the previous one.  I never had occasion

 8     to see that log, log-book, and say, yes, he was registered under

 9     number so and so.  But based on everything I know, I would conclude that

10     he must have been registered in that log-book, that it must have been

11     registered that he had spent some time there.

12        Q.   Is it because of that that the commander of the police security

13     securing Vanekov Mlin, that he required that he could only be taken away

14     once a form was signed?  Does it also tell us something about the fact

15     that they were registered?

16        A.   This also indicates that Milan Savic - that was the name of the

17     warden - was a responsible person, and in the log-book, where the name of

18     Avdo Palic stood, he simply didn't wish to sign off that easily or leave

19     empty the date of Palic's hand-over.  He wanted to have him registered,

20     and the warden wanted to have all of his bases covered once Palic was

21     taken to another location.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  You noticed that the receipt was

23     issued on the 5th, the receipt that was signed in Vanekov Mlin.  It was

24     issued by the Security Service there, confirming that the prisoner was

25     handed over to the person in question.

Page 13090

 1        A.   I remember the form, but I can't remember the date.  I even

 2     remember the contents, but not the date itself.

 3        Q.   Have a look at it in e-court.  It was a Prosecution exhibit, I

 4     believe.  Let me check.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is P2182.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             Could we please have P2182, then.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says the 5th of September,

 9     although the 9, standing for September, is not that clear.  But I think

10     it is 9, not 8.  So the 5th of September, 1995.  And in the text itself,

11     I see again the 5th of September.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could the upper left-hand corner of the B/C/S

13     document be blown up, please.

14             Sir, now you can see a bit better, I think, the date.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is easier to read.  We see

16     that the figure 8 is of the same quality in both lines, but I believe it

17     is a 9.  Actually, the figure of 9, yes.  We see the top of the number

18     missing, whereas the bottom part of the number 9 looks like what it

19     should look like.  It's not an 8.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Given that there was disagreement

24     between the commander who was in charge of the prisoner and the person

25     who wanted to take him over, did the person who came to take the prisoner

Page 13091

 1     away have a written form, some type of confirmation that he is authorised

 2     to take him away?

 3        A.   I didn't see him, and I didn't ask him whether he had such a

 4     form.  I explained yesterday or the day before that I was called by

 5     Mr. Savic simply to verify whether Dragomir Pecanac was an authorised

 6     officer of the security organ of our superior command, and he also told

 7     me that he was refusing to sign off.  However, since it is stated here

 8     that he was transferred following to the order of Tomic, Dragan, officer

 9     on duty of the Eastern Bosnian Corps intelligence organ, I suppose -- or,

10     rather, I conclude that Dragan Tomic, as the officer on duty, called the

11     officer on duty in the Intelligence Sector of the Main Staff in order to

12     verify whether Pecanac was, indeed, there because of the needs of the

13     service or of his own accord.  So I believe he could testify to this.

14     Perhaps Tomic and Savic provided their statements or testimony to the

15     investigating judge of the BiH Court.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I will put some questions and you will have freedom

17     to respond in the way you deem appropriate, but let's keep it short for

18     now.

19             We saw the date here, which is important, and it is the 9th.  And

20     since he did not have any written document with him and that you had to

21     run your checks by phone, I wanted to ask you this:  Do security organs

22     need to know what tasks they are to go about when performing their

23     duties?

24        A.   I am not sure I understand.

25        Q.   I will repeat.  Since you said that the officer on duty had it

Page 13092

 1     confirmed by phone that -- whether Pecanac was, indeed, from the

 2     Administration Sector, my question is this:  Do officers on duty in

 3     security organs and intelligence organs have to be acquainted of the

 4     tasks performed by other agents of the Security Service or do their

 5     chiefs have to be familiar with it?

 6        A.   Officers on duty, in principle, have to be acquainted with the

 7     situation and events preceding their shift as well as the most important

 8     tasks that will spill over into the next.  All tasks received by

 9     individual members of the department, irrespective of the level, that is

10     something that they need not be necessarily acquainted with, especially

11     if these are counter-intelligence tasks or state security-related

12     matters.  In such instances, only the chief sending the person in

13     question would be familiar with it.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Since we saw that Mr. Beara issued a

15     written order to Mr. Carkic, which you could read yesterday, dated the

16     10th of August, to bring Avdo Palic to Vanekov Mlin, do you think the

17     competent officer should have also issued an order for Avdo Palic to be

18     taken away from Vanekov Mlin, since this prisoner was, in a way,

19     specific, unique?

20        A.   Yes.  In any case, he should have had a piece of paper

21     authorising him to do this, because soldiers who are in military

22     detention have a specific time to serve, say, between the 5th and the

23     15th, and on the 15th their commander comes and picks them up without a

24     written document, because it had already been specified that they were to

25     leave the unit on the 15th.  But if we have this type of detention, when

Page 13093

 1     we know when the person came but don't know how long he will be staying,

 2     once that person is to be transferred, there must be or ought to be a

 3     document specifying the date, be it a telegram, a written order, some

 4     kind of document that would be used as the basis for it.

 5        Q.   Having in mind that the person who came for Avdo Palic did not

 6     have a document authorising him to take him away and that this was done

 7     outside regular working hours and in an unspecified time, could it have

 8     been possible to conclude that he came there of his own accord to simply

 9     take the person away, which was further corroborated by the fact that he

10     refused, initially, to sign that the prisoner was handed over to him?

11        A.   I can't speak with certainty whether he did or did not have a

12     document with him, but I infer he did not, since he refused to sign.  His

13     identity, though, was checked by the person on duty, through the

14     administration, and I recognised his voice.  The rest includes questions

15     that should be put to him, if he's still alive and kicking.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 07321 for the

17     witness.  [Microphone not activated]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You analysed this in detail yesterday, and you noticed an error

21     in the date and the title.  You can see that it was signed by

22     Ljubisa Beara.  Do you believe that a similar document should have

23     existed on the taking over of the prisoner, because in this document he

24     mentioned that it was essential that an interview be conducted with the

25     prisoner?

Page 13094

 1        A.   In principle, such or similar documents should have existed.

 2     However, in wartime conditions, frequently, because of the need to

 3     resolve matters quickly, such things could be also dealt with by phone,

 4     as long as they are noted down in the various work and log-books.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever discuss later on with the person who

 6     sent Mr. Palic to Vanekov Mlin about the fact that Avdo Palic was taken

 7     away in the manner he was?

 8        A.   No, I never did.  We never broached that topic.  And I never met

 9     Avdo Palic.  I didn't know what he looked like.  When testifying before

10     the BiH Court, I was shown a number of photographs and I wasn't able to

11     identify anyone.  I never discussed this topic with Mr. Beara, and we

12     didn't talk much ever, because, being his subordinate, it wasn't up to me

13     to put such questions to my superior, as you are well aware of.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  A moment ago, we saw the rules and

15     competences, and we could see that he was not your superior.  He was

16     actually someone from the superior command.  He never received a written

17     document on -- about the rather odd circumstances in which that prisoner

18     was taken away, did he?

19        A.   Well, there are different things that seem odd, as you put it, in

20     the whole situation.

21             Mr. Beara sent this document, which has almost nothing to do with

22     the Security Service.  It was a detention measure involving a person who

23     was deemed important.

24             We also discussed the issue of military detention, whereby we

25     said that the military detention unit was a part and parcel of the

Page 13095

 1     garrison, with its own commanding officer, and everything that had to do

 2     with the military detention unit was dealt with through the garrison

 3     commander and the corps commander.

 4             Had it been mentioned in this document that me, as the chief of

 5     security of organ of the East Bosnian Corps, should undertake certain

 6     specific measures in order to protect this person, then it would have

 7     involved me directly.  Absent that, it all has to do with the line of

 8     command which was supposed to receive that person, according to the

 9     rules, house him in detention, and document it appropriately, including

10     his release or hand-over.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  I apologise if I said something or

12     suggested something in my question which was inappropriate.  I wanted to

13     know, basically, whether the person who sent this document should have

14     signed another document on the prisoner being taken away.

15             I wanted to ask you this:  Did the prison or detention commander,

16     or Commander Simic, who was his superior, ever notify the Main Staff that

17     the person was taken away from Vanekov Mlin by a certain person under

18     rather strange circumstances?

19        A.   I think I've already answered.  There should have been a similar

20     document, documenting his release.  But I did also stress that in

21     exceptional circumstances, as envisaged by the Rules of Service, there

22     may be occasions in which orders can be conveyed by phone, but then both

23     persons at the different ends of the line have to have a document in

24     their note-books and then it is of the same level as a document which

25     would be sent in written form.

Page 13096

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You didn't understand the question of

 2     Mr. Tolimir, I think.  He was asking you if the commander of the prison

 3     or Commander Simic ever sent a report to his superior Main Staff about

 4     the release of the hand-over of Avdo Palic.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, during

 6     our daily briefing the following day at the office of the commander of

 7     the East Bosnia Corps, the garrison commander,

 8     Lieutenant-Colonel Jovanovic, Petar, reported to the corps commander

 9     about the procedure of the detainees being taken out from Vanek's Mill.

10     I don't know if General Simic reported this further up to the Main Staff.

11     I wasn't informed about that.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  My next question is this:  Since this

14     was not part of your responsibilities, you were there informally, but you

15     did get some information about the activities --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure what the accused

17     said.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please repeat your question.  It was

19     not properly recorded.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, since you just happened to learn that

23     Mr. Avdo Palic was taken away from Vanek's Mill in odd circumstances, at

24     night, without documents, did you perhaps ever speak about this matter

25     with me, about the manner in which he was taken out?  Thank you.

Page 13097

 1        A.   As far as I remember, I never asked you -- or I never talked

 2     about this topic to you.  We didn't see each other too often, due to the

 3     circumstances which were what they were.  I avoided asking any of my

 4     superiors questions, that included you, Beara, and others, all the more

 5     so because all the extremely professional, true officer relations with

 6     you, which I remember with affection, I asked you a couple of times about

 7     something, I asked after your health, and your answer was always pending.

 8     So I would always think carefully before asking anything of my superiors.

 9     I'm not really that curious by nature, generally, and I don't really ask

10     many things that have not much to do with my direct responsibilities.

11             These circumstances were odd.  A person appeared from the

12     administration, led by Mr. Beara.  My duty operations officer checked.

13     Somebody did respond and said, Yes, yes, Pecanac was sent.  He called the

14     warden of the detention unit, who was suspicious about the whole thing,

15     and finally things culminated with me being woken up and this elderly

16     man, the prison warden, said, I should ask Colonel Todorovic just in

17     case.  I do not want to be blamed for anything later.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  I am obliged, for the sake of our

19     professional relationship, to say that you did not have any opportunities

20     for personal contacts with me, because I was in Dayton, after that I was

21     in Vienna, I was away for a considerable period of time, and that is

22     probably one of the reasons.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] now, can we please look at 65 ter

24     04086.  So can we see 04086 in the e-court.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would like to ask the witness the

Page 13098

 1     following question:

 2             It was 1.00 in the night.  You got the phone call, and you were

 3     told that Mr. Pecanac was there in the prison to take over Avdo Palic.

 4     Did you ask for any letter of authority that this Mr. Pecanac really had

 5     the right to take the prisoner away under these odd circumstances, as you

 6     called it?  Did you ask for any document?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't ask for any kind of

 8     permit, any document.  The detention facility warden was acting pursuant

 9     to his rules and powers.  His immediate superior is the garrison

10     commander.  He is the one who trained him and asks him to behave pursuant

11     to the rules.  And if there are any false steps or mis-steps, he would be

12     subject to penalties.  So I'm not sure whether he had any documents with

13     him.  If this is important, perhaps this is a topic for Mr. Simic -- I'm

14     sorry, Mr. Savic, not Mr. Simic.  I am thinking of Mr. Savic, who was the

15     detention facility warden.  I am not thinking about the corps commander

16     in this case.

17             The warden of the military detention facility called me on the

18     telephone.  This is a person who is about my age, and we knew each other

19     privately; we were relatives.  And because of this personal trust, he

20     called me and he asked me, What should I do, Colonel?  The matters stand

21     like this; this is what it's about.  And my duty officer also informed me

22     that he had contacted the Security Administration at the Main Staff and

23     that Pecanac, member of the Security Service, and he works -- this is

24     something that I know, also Tomic knows it, who was the duty officer,

25     that he worked at the Security Department.  It does not have to be

Page 13099

 1     relevant.  He was working today and perhaps this evening he could have

 2     been replaced and he could have escaped, deserted, and he could be

 3     presenting, introducing himself under a false function.

 4             Well, the matter of dispute was that should he sign it or not.

 5     The detention facility warden did not call me with the question, Do I

 6     have a document or not, or anything else.  The only thing that he was

 7     concerned about was that he did not want to sign it.  And I said to him,

 8     If you don't want to, then don't hand it over to him.  And that's when

 9     Pecanac took the receiver, Why, how sign?  I said, You sign pursuant to

10     the protocol.  Do not create problems for the detention facility warden.

11             After that intervention, he did sign for him, and he took away

12     the prisoner.  I don't know what happened after that.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Todorovic, were you called that night because

14     you were a relative of the warden or because of your position and your

15     responsibilities?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was more -- I was not the

17     detention facility's warden superior officer along any command line.  He

18     had three -- or two or three other options open to him: to call the duty

19     operations officer at the corps command, who was some 100 metres away,

20     physically, he could consult this person; he had the duty officer at my

21     sector, because in any kind of matters relating to the security officers

22     they would call the Security Sector.  He did call the Security Sector,

23     and my duty officer said that Pecanac was the authorised senior officer

24     from the security organ of the Main Staff of the Army of

25     Republika Srpska.  There was a third option that he could have used along

Page 13100

 1     a private line, but not because I was his superior or because he was

 2     duty-bound to consult me, but it was some kind of human need and because

 3     of the trust he felt towards me.  It was something like that.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said, on page 29, lines 19 and 20, and I

 5     quote:

 6             "My duty operations officer checked.  Somebody did respond and

 7     said, Yes, yes, Pecanac was sent."

 8             Somebody did respond.  Are you referring to a person in the

 9     Main Staff?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, my duty operations officer

11     dialed the duty officer at the Main Staff Security Administration.  He

12     introduced himself, and he opened -- he responded briefly, Yes, yes,

13     Pecanac is responsible for that assignment.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you give us the names of your duty operations

15     officer and the person in the Main Staff whom he called that night?  Do

16     you recall the names?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The certificate that we were able

18     to see, it states that the duty officer of my sector, his chief was

19     Dragan Tomic.  He was a lawyer.  I don't know who the duty officer was at

20     the Security Administration of the Main Staff and who responded to his

21     call.  I don't know who was in Bijeljina and who was available and who

22     was supposed to be consulted.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Who was the duty officer -- your duty

24     officer in the corps?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, my duty officer was

Page 13101

 1     Lieutenant Dragan Tomic.  At the Security Department, where I was the

 2     chief, the officer there was Dragan Tomic.  He first got information or a

 3     request from the detention facility warden, who was checking whether this

 4     was an authorised person or not.  My duty officer, Dragan Tomic, called

 5     the Security Administration of the Main Staff and asked whether

 6     Pecanac ... and so on and so forth.  And when that didn't work, then they

 7     called me.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand.  Thank you very much.

 9             We must have our first break now, and we will resume at 11.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14             Could we see 65 ter, on the e-court, 04086.  This is a document

15     by the Main Staff, Sector for Intelligence/Security Affairs, and this

16     document concerns the peace negotiations in Dayton.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Are you aware when the Dayton talks took place and when the peace

19     agreement was signed?

20        A.   Yes, I know that.  Even without looking at the document, I know

21     that the Dayton final document was signed on the 21st of November,

22     because, again, this is linked with one of our Orthodox holidays.  I can

23     see that the negotiations were conducted from the 1st to the

24     21st of November, 1995.

25        Q.   All right.  Then during that period of time, as indicated in the

Page 13102

 1     document, from the 1st to the 21st, was I able to be in touch with you

 2     for you to be able to let me know any information about the activities

 3     that we have been discussing earlier?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Well, physically, a body cannot be in two places at the same

 5     time.  And before this 1st of November, you were appointed, I assume, to

 6     be a member of the commission or the team, and I assume that you had

 7     duties of such a nature that you needed to prepare.  So I guess you had

 8     fewer opportunities for any kind of contacts, including those with me.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please tender the document,

11     since it also covers the period when I was abroad.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Was I present during the period when Mr. Pecanac turned up to

14     take Mr. Palic out of Bijeljina?  Was I present?

15        A.   I cannot give you a specific answer to that question because I

16     don't have a record, not even a record of my movements during those days.

17        Q.   All right.  In the first line of this, it says:

18             "In the period of the 1st to the 22nd November, 1995, at the

19     American base Wright-Patterson in Dayton, peace negotiations were

20     held ..."

21             Look at that.

22             And now can you please look at the ninth paragraph:

23             "A delegation of Republika Srpska was led by ..."

24             And then it says, further down, the delegation also included

25     Zdravko Tolimir, General, and so on and so forth.

Page 13103

 1             Is that the period during which this activity took place when the

 2     prisoner was taken out from Vanek's Mlin?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Well, this is a little bit later than the period when Avdo Palic

 4     was taken away.  But one could conclude that you were obliged, much

 5     earlier before this time, to gather materials to compare, to compile

 6     documents.  I assume that you were busy in the delegation, performing

 7     certain assignments and tasks, so I assume that you were absent.  But I

 8     don't really have any kind of record of your working time to know when

 9     you were at your post and not.

10        Q.   Earlier, you looked at this certificate, and you even remarked

11     that it was drafted in September and not in August.  We're now going to

12     show P2182 in the e-court.  Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And before that, can we admit the

14     document that we are looking at in e-court right now?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is quite difficult --

16             No, please, back to the previous document.

17             It is quite difficult for us to understand what we see on the

18     screen, because you didn't put questions to this document to the witness,

19     Mr. Tolimir.  We don't know anything about this document.  We see a date,

20     the 25th of November, 1995, and it's obviously from the Main Staff of the

21     VRS.  But what is it about?  You should use this document with the

22     witness.

23             And I would like to see the last page to see who signed it.

24             Mr. Tolimir.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 13104

 1             I signed this document, and I asked the witness if he could see,

 2     on the first line of this document, when the Dayton negotiations took

 3     place.  And he said that he knew the date without even having to refer to

 4     the document.

 5             And can we now show the first page, please.

 6             Then I asked him to look at paragraph 8.

 7             Can we scroll up so that we can look at paragraph 9, actually, to

 8     see who comprised the delegation of Republika Srpska.

 9             Can we now look at the heading, about which -- actually, in this

10     paragraph, it says that in the delegation, besides other members,

11     Zdravko Tolimir was also a member.  And now we can look at the heading.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   And you can tell us, Mr. Todorovic, whether you ever received

14     this report from Dayton.  Was it ever sent to you?

15        A.   Well, to answer your question, I did receive this report.  I

16     recall it very clearly.  And in reply to your previous question, I said

17     that you could not be in two places at the same time, both in Bijeljina

18     and in the Main Staff, because at the time you were in Dayton as a member

19     of the delegation of Republika Srpska, and that was between the

20     1st and the 21st of November.

21             Now, I also said the following: that before November the 1st,

22     when you were in Dayton already, you probably had to take some time to

23     prepare for that major task, meaning the work that you had to do as a

24     member of the delegation, which would mean probably that you had to be

25     busy with that for about a month.  Now -- and then that brings us to

Page 13105

 1     September.  Now, when exactly in September you were there, I can't really

 2     say exactly.  But from this document we can see, and I understand, that

 3     you must have had some time that you needed to prepare for this

 4     delegation, and that you were probably absent from your duties and that

 5     somebody else was standing in for you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 7             This document --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Wait a moment, please.

10             This document will be marked for identification, pending

11     translation.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 4086 shall be

13     assigned Exhibit D223, marked for identification, pending translation.

14     Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.

16             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] It's not really a question; it's

17     just a point of clarification.

18             Since the document is not translated:  Who is the addressee of

19     this document, please, Witness?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can see the last page.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was a question for the witness.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did see the last page of this

23     document.  The document was sent to all chiefs of intelligence and

24     security departments within the VRS who were connected to the

25     intelligence and security organ in the Main Staff of the VRS, to the

Page 13106

 1     commander of the main -- the chief of the Main Staff of the VRS, and the

 2     commanders and units that served within the Main Staff Command, and it

 3     was sent to all the commanders of units of the VRS in order to inform

 4     them on the outcome of the negotiations in Dayton.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So in your capacity as chief of

 6     the organ of the Security and Intelligence Services of the

 7     Eastern Bosnian Corps, that you received a copy of this document; is that

 8     right?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, but not the chief

10     of sector, but at the corps level, that is, the Department for

11     Information and Security.

12             Now, a sector is a superior institution that was at the level of

13     the military staff, and that's correct, because on the last page you can

14     see, at the bottom in Serbian, that this document was sent to the

15     commanders, among others, my own commander, and security and intelligence

16     organs or departments of my corps and all the other corps in the VRS, as

17     well as to the Ministry of Defence and so on; in other words, to all the

18     different levels and structures within the VRS, to the commanders and

19     security and intelligence chiefs.

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.

21             Witness, allow me to go back in time a little.  I'd like to go

22     back to a question that was addressed right before the break, and,

23     unfortunately, I did not have time to address it then.

24             Here we see that when an important issue is raised, the chief of

25     the security and intelligence services can inform his subordinates about

Page 13107

 1     a particular issue.  But how is it, then, that you, in the middle of the

 2     night, at 1.00 in the morning, you are woken up because a very important

 3     war prisoner is there, and he's referred to under a code-name, which is

 4     "Atlantis," this person is leaving the centre without a document and you

 5     don't inform your superior of the Intelligence and Security Sector about

 6     it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've explained that, and perhaps

 8     there was an omission in interpretation or a misinterpretation.

 9             My duty officer, not my own personal, but, rather, the duty

10     officer at the Intelligence and Security Department of the

11     East Bosnia Corps, checked with the Sector for Intelligence and Security,

12     or, rather, the Intelligence and Security Administration of the

13     Main Corps of the VRS -- of the VRS Main Staff, whether, indeed,

14     Major Pecanac was assigned this mission and whether he was sent to do

15     this.  And, practically, all the official -- all the things that had to

16     be done officially had been exhausted thereby, and no one should have

17     really made that phone call to me in the middle of the night for this

18     reason.  However, as I explained a little earlier, the prison warden, who

19     was a personal acquaintance, and I've explained this as well, wanted just

20     to double-check to make sure that there would be no consequences for him.

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24             I would like to tender this document, the document we have before

25     us, unless it's already been done.  And I would also like to call another

Page 13108

 1     document.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was marked for identification already.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm sorry, I failed to

 4     notice that.

 5             Could we have 05484 under 65 ter, please.  Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, the document that we see here on the overall

 8     Dayton Accords, negotiations and the accords and annexes, has this

 9     document been sent to you?  Can you please take a look and check that,

10     whether it was sent to the chief of the Security and

11     Intelligence Department.

12        A.   Yes.  It was sent to me as well, and I kept this document for a

13     long time with me as a token of the sort of -- something to have a

14     memento of the end of the war and the negotiations, so I kept it very

15     carefully.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you receive all the documents that were part

17     of the peace agreement, and were they also sent to the security organs in

18     units that were subordinated to you?  Thank you.

19        A.   Yes, they were sent.  Namely, in addition to this original

20     document, there were also supplements to this, so that each unit and

21     command within the corps had a set of documents with them.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now pull up -- or, rather,

24     could we scroll this document in order to be able to see the note or

25     comment.

Page 13109

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And can you tell us whether this comment states precisely what

 3     you've just described here, that these documents are to be forwarded to

 4     all the subordinated security and intelligence organs within your

 5     units -- within your area of responsibility?

 6        A.   Well, I answered your question already.  I anticipated, as it

 7     were, your question.  And as I said, I kept this document myself, and all

 8     the units received them.

 9        Q.   Could you tell me now:  After the signing of this peace

10     agreement, was part of it the implementation of this agreement on the

11     ground, and was it binding on the parties -- or, rather, the warring

12     parties on the ground?  Thank you.

13        A.   Yes, that was the focus and the main task for every unit.  There

14     were tasks that had to be implemented immediately, such as cease-fire and

15     cessation of hostilities, and then there were tasks that were staggered,

16     a 15-day, a 30-day mark, a 45-day mark, withdrawal, and so on.  But the

17     focus of all the work, the focus was on the implementation of the

18     provisions of this agreement, and that was the focal point and the focal

19     mission of all the departments for -- of the various security and

20     intelligence departments.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

23     document, please.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we please see the last page of the document

25     in both languages.  I mean the page with the signature.  I don't know

Page 13110

 1     which page it is.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's on the second page.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  I see it now.

 5             This document will be received as an exhibit.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 5484 shall be

 7     assigned Exhibit D224.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Could we now pull up 65 ter 05484.  My apologies, my apologies.

11     We've just seen that document.

12             Can we see 05835.  Thank you.

13             For the record, let me say that this is a Main Staff document,

14     dated the 7th of January, 1995, entitled "Meeting of the Joint

15     Central Commission:  Report."

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   My question for you is this:  Did you receive this document as

18     the chief of the Security and Intelligence Department of the

19     East Bosnia Corps?

20        A.   Yes, I did receive it, and we can see that this document was

21     sent, in addition to commanders who were related to the Main Staff.  We

22     see the 1st, 2nd, and so on, East Bosnia Corps.  It was also sent to the

23     chiefs of security and intelligence departments of those commands in

24     order for them to be informed at the same time of the contents so that

25     they can implement the tasks assigned therein as soon as possible.

Page 13111

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, looking at this document, can you tell us

 2     whether this Joint Central Commission was the main body in charge of

 3     implementing the Dayton Accords?

 4        A.   Yes, it was.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2 of this

 6     document, please.  Paragraph 3, let's take a look at it.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Above number 3, we see that it says:

 9             "At the fourth session of the Joint Central Commission,

10     observation posts are to be agreed."

11             And then it goes on to say:

12             "The Commission also adopted the Agreement on the Cessation of

13     Hostilities."

14             That's on page 3.  My apologies.  I called for page 2.

15             My question is this --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I'm not sure if we have the right

17     document on the screen, or the right part of the document.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Paragraph 6 reads as follows:

20             "The agreement was signed by Major General Manojlo Milovanovic,

21     General Vere, and Colonel Stjepan Siber."

22             In other words, the agreement referred to there is the agreement

23     on the cessation.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could the B/C/S version be enlarged, please.

25             Do you see the relevant part, not above number 3, but below

Page 13112

 1     number 3, the next paragraph below number 3?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it, and I did notice

 3     it earlier as well.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             And now your question, please, Mr. Tolimir.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   My question is this:  At every session of the Joint Commission

 8     which was held in Sarajevo under the auspices of UNPROFOR, were there

 9     specifically-assigned tasks and was there agreement on how to go about

10     implementing those tasks, as established by the UNPROFOR commander and as

11     assigned by the UNPROFOR commander?

12        A.   Yes.  After each of the meetings, we, the subordinates from the

13     security organs, were informed about what was agreed upon, and we

14     received specific orders as to how to proceed within our respective

15     areas.

16        Q.   Did the corps, at its level, also have a central joint commission

17     with the adjacent corps of the opposing warring sides, and were they in

18     standing contact with that corps' commander?

19        A.   Yes.  Such commissions were formed at corps command levels, and

20     they established direct co-operation with the enemy side.  In my area,

21     for example, it was with the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

22     of course through the mediation of IFOR, which was later renamed

23     UNPROFOR.  Shortly thereafter, although I don't recall the date, a

24     meeting was held of those commissions at the highest level at the

25     separation line, at Porebrice.  Alongside the corps delegations, there

Page 13113

 1     were the commanders of the East Bosnian Corps, General Simic; and

 2     commander of the 2nd Corps of the ABiH, General Delic.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I note that this document and the

 6     previous one were not included in the list of documents to be used during

 7     your cross-examination.  This is always unfortunate if it's not included.

 8     Perhaps we have received, in the meantime, another version, but my last

 9     one didn't include that.

10             The document will be received as an exhibit.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 5835 shall be

12     assigned Exhibit D225.  Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D719, or

14     P1011, because the latter has a better translation.  Thank you.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, do you recognise the document, and what does it

17     pertain to?  Also, was it forwarded to your corps as a document on the

18     completion -- cessation of hostilities?

19        A.   Yes, I am familiar with the document.  It is one of a number of

20     documents which appeared during combat activities, which lasted for a

21     short while only, after which immediately combat was resumed.  This is

22     the 23rd of December, 1994.

23        Q.   During this cessation of hostilities, were there any violations

24     along the front-lines concerning a number of soldiers that were supposed

25     to be exchanged between the VRS and the ABiH?  And when I say the

Page 13114

 1     "soldiers," I have in mind the soldiers of your corps.

 2        A.   I'm certain that this agreement was violated.  I'm trying to

 3     rewind.

 4             Sometime around that date, there weren't only violations but also

 5     breakthroughs through the front-lines and taking soldiers captive,

 6     although I can't recall anything specifically.  All I can say, that

 7     basically this agreement never even lived to see it become true.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we go to the last page to see

 9     who signed it.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   It was signed by both political and military leaders.  Was this

12     agreement signed by the Croatian military and civilian leadership?

13        A.   On the left-hand side, we can see "Alija Izetbegovic" and

14     "Rasim Delic," who was commander of the Main Staff of the ABiH, then

15     "Kresimir Zubak," who was the political representative in the

16     Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, who was a Croat.  And

17     "Vladimir Soljic," I don't know that person by name.  I can't say what

18     his ethnicity was.

19             On the right-hand side, we have "Radovan Karadzic," who was the

20     RS president, and "Ratko Mladic," commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.

21             At the bottom, we have the peace representatives,

22     "Yasushi Akashi," from the UN, and "Sir Michael Rose," who was at the

23     helm of the peacekeeping force.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether absent from this document are

25     the signatures of the commanders of Croatian ethnicity, Croatian armed

Page 13115

 1     forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2        A.   Well, I tried to comment what positions were that these people

 3     held.  It was only Rasim Delic, who was from the Main Staff of the

 4     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Ratko Mladic, who was from the Main

 5     Staff of the VRS; these are the only two military representatives.  The

 6     other people we see here were civilians.

 7        Q.   I apologise for repeating my question, but I have to do it for

 8     the record.

 9             Was the document signed by the commander of the HVO in Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina; yes or no?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Did UNPROFOR tolerate the fact that the Croats did not sign the

13     agreement for as long as they had an opportunity to deal with some things

14     they wanted to see resolved by military means?

15        A.   I learned of that through official information, about this kind

16     of conduct or position towards the different warring parties.

17     Personally, I never attended such gatherings, but I was informed of it

18     through official channels, not from the media.

19        Q.   Following the signing of this Agreement on the Cessation of

20     Hostilities, was there another outbreak of conflict in the RS and the

21     Serb Republic of the Krajina?

22        A.   One could conclude that more intensive preparations began for the

23     final stages or operations of driving rebel forces out of Croatia.  I had

24     it confirmed through intelligence information we had.  The Republic of

25     Croatia was bringing in and grouping, as well as training and equipping,

Page 13116

 1     the units of their army alongside selected routes, and their focus was

 2     Knin.

 3        Q.   Do you recall when Croatia drove the Serbs of the Serb Republic

 4     of the Krajina out, thus eliminating the RSK as a protected UN area?

 5        A.   The beginning of that operation was in early August.  I don't

 6     know if it was the 2nd, the 3rd, or the 5th of August, 1995.  The

 7     operation itself did not take long.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether NATO, too, participated in the

 9     bombing of Serb positions attacked by the Croatian Army and ABiH in the

10     western part of the SRK [as interpreted] and the RS, where units of the

11     1st Krajina Corps of the RS were located?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  It should have been

13     "RSK" instead of "SRK."

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the few days following the

15     exodus of the population from the RSK, I went to Drvar on official

16     business, and I could see a location that was hit by aeroplanes.  A

17     refugee column was targeted, and one could see things strewn about and

18     traces of bombing.  I don't know what plane -- or what force that plane

19     belonged to.  Because it was outside the area of my corps, I couldn't

20     identify the plane itself.  I don't know whether it was an Italian plane,

21     a Croatian plane, a NATO plane.  I don't think, though, that Croatia at

22     the time had its own aviation.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Tell us this:  Based on this agreement

24     and the joint operation between the HVO, the Croatian Army, and NATO, can

25     we make any inference as to why they didn't sign this Agreement on the

Page 13117

 1     Cessation of Hostilities at that time and for what reason?

 2        A.   From a military point of view, there is something worth taking

 3     note of.  The so-called corridor in the RS was a route through the Brcko

 4     area.  At that time, it was under threat, and the forces defending it

 5     were disproportionately low.  The East Bosnian Corps, upon orders of the

 6     Main Staff, we were obliged to send assistance to the Krajina Corps.  We

 7     supplied a number of units.  Not a single bullet was fired along the

 8     corridor during the operation when the RSK was liberated and the

 9     population driven out.  The reason for it was that the population had to

10     be allowed to go through the area without any hindrance.

11             At that point in time, the corridor could have been cut in half

12     by, let's say, a reinforced battalion or a unit of similar size.

13     However, it did not take place.  This makes me conclude that it was a

14     planned and carefully-organised operation.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Did NATO bomb exclusively the western

16     part of the RS around Banja Luka in the areas of the 1st and 2nd Corps,

17     and they did not bomb the area of your corps, where the corridor was used

18     by the Serbs fleeing Croatia?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document,

22     Mr. President.  Oh, it has been admitted.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, we saw a number of documents testifying to my

25     absence, because I was busy with other tasks related to the

Page 13118

 1     Dayton Accords.

 2             Let us again look at P2182, again.

 3             Perhaps now, following that document, you will be able to say

 4     where I was at the time all this was happening, because previously you

 5     said you couldn't confirm that.

 6             We see here the receipt of the 9th of September -- actually, the

 7     5th of September, issued by the authorities in the prison about the

 8     handing over of Avdo Palic at Vanekov Mlin.  Since the date is the

 9     5th of September, and following all the documents we saw, can you recall

10     whether I was in the RS or abroad?

11        A.   I can repeat that I can only presume.  I cannot state with full

12     responsibility that you were absent between the 3rd of -- that you were

13     absent at the time because of the Dayton Accords and that in your absence

14     your assistants stood in, who were in charge of intelligence and

15     security.  However, I cannot be more concrete than that, and I cannot

16     specify a date.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Since we've seen in the Dayton Agreement document

18     that on the 1st of September I was in Dayton, until the 21st -- actually,

19     from the 1st until the 21st of November, could you please tell us, for

20     the purposes of the transcript, could I have been both in

21     Republika Srpska and in Dayton from the 1st to the 21st of November?

22             Actually, could the transcript reflect correctly your answer,

23     since you already gave an answer.  So could the transcript correctly

24     reflect whether you said yes or no.  Thank you.

25        A.   My answer is that you could not have been in Republika Srpska or

Page 13119

 1     in the Main Staff, performing your duty by establishment.  Also, I can

 2     state with full responsibility that for a considerable amount of time

 3     before that period you had to have been absent from your duties in order

 4     to adequately prepare for such a complex and big assignment.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Todorovic, I would like to ask you:  Have you

 6     any knowledge where Mr. Tolimir was on the 5th of September, 1995?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about the

 8     5th, 6th, or the 20th.  It wasn't his duty to report to me or it wasn't

 9     my duty to report to him on a daily basis.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just wanted to know if you have any knowledge

11     where Mr. Tolimir was on that day, 5th of September, 1995.  I'm putting

12     this to you because Mr. Tolimir asked you several times about November

13     and the Dayton negotiations.

14             But this document we have on the screen is dated on the 5th of

15     September, 1995.  Do you know where Mr. Tolimir was at that time?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, can we now look at page 42 of your statement,

22     please, to the OTP.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is P2183, P2183.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can we ask e-court, please, to show P2183.

Page 13120

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which page?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 43 in the English.  We are

 3     interested in lines 17 to 22 on this page 42.

 4             I am going to read to you.  During the interview, the

 5     investigator asked you this:

 6             "Do you have an explanation why -- do you know of any reason to

 7     divert thousands of prisoners of war from Batkovic, instead of back to

 8     Batkovic, and housing them in little schools around the Zvornik area?  Do

 9     you have any explanation why --"

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just wanted to know where you are -- this

11     portion is to be found, but now I see it.  Lines 27 and the following.

12             Please continue.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And the investigator then asks you:

15             "Do you have any explanation why that would have been done to

16     thousands of prisoners?"

17             And then on line 27, you said --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note we do not have the text

19     on the screen.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we don't see the next question of

21     the investigator.

22             Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             I'm sorry to interrupt, but General Tolimir keeps referring to

25     this question as one that was put to this witness.  It wasn't.  He's

Page 13121

 1     reading from a transcript that was put to a different person, and so the

 2     questions and the answers relating to that person is what is being put to

 3     this witness.  So I just wanted the record to be clear about that.  The

 4     question is actually put to Ljubomir Mitrovic in the Popovic case.  So we

 5     see the questions that were put to him and the answers that he gave, and

 6     then this witness was asked to comment on it on the next page.  But I

 7     just thought that should be clear for the record.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 9             Please take that into account.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

11             Can we now look at page 44 in the English and page 43 in the

12     Serbian, lines 5, 6, and 7.

13             What Mr. Vanderpuye has said is exactly right.  Thank you.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You answered:

16             "There's no logical explanation, both from the point of view of

17     an officer, of a soldier, a human point of view, or morale, or ethics.

18     The only explanation can come from the point of view of a mentally

19     unbalanced person who could think of something like that, which is

20     something that I'm deeply ashamed of."

21             Thank you, and I have now ended quoting.

22        A.   Well, the page that you were reading from is not shown to me on

23     my monitor.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the e-court please show that

Page 13122

 1     page to Mr. Todorovic so that he could see what I asked him.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, yes, I see it now.

 3             Yes, yes, this is what I said, because we were talking about what

 4     happened after the fall of Srebrenica, or, rather, when Ljubo Mitrovic

 5     explained that they did not come to Batkovic at all, that their visit was

 6     cancelled, and that on the route from Srebrenica to Bijeljina they were

 7     deployed at a number of locations along that road.  And the epilogue of

 8     all of that is known to everyone here.  And my answer was as it is stated

 9     in the document, and I stand by that same answer now.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Since you've already answered my

11     question in part, I'm going to just ask you this:  When you were giving

12     your statement, were you questioned about your knowledge about why the

13     order was changed to send the prisoners of war to the Batkovic Camp?

14     Thank you.

15        A.   Well, as far as I can remember, there was a question like that.

16     You'll remind me if I've forgotten.  My answer was that to this day I

17     still don't know who made that decision, why the decision was changed.  I

18     didn't really look into this.  It's something that I never looked into

19     professionally or privately.  I never showed any interest in learning who

20     made this decision and acted in that way.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at D3, please.

23     This is a statement by General Major Elliott, who was the -- who was

24     Carl Bildt's secretary.  In paragraphs 2 and 3, he talks about how, on

25     the 14th and the 15th, General Ratko Mladic was in Belgrade.

Page 13123

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Did you know that Ratko Mladic was absent at that time and that

 3     he was in Belgrade?

 4        A.   I know -- from the media, I know that when Srebrenica was

 5     de-blocked and liberated, he was in Srebrenica.  The footage of that is

 6     being played over and over again in different media outlets.  I don't

 7     know whether this was the 14th or something.  Immediately after that, he

 8     went to Belgrade.  This is something that I also knew from the media,

 9     that he went for some kind of consultation or agreements or talks.  I

10     don't know of what nature.  I assume that it was about the

11     newly-created situation and further actions.  I didn't attend the

12     meeting, so I'm only assuming that that was what it was about.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  We can see what the documents say

14     about that.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D655 or D192,

16     page 6, last paragraph, paragraph 17.

17             This is a statement, as you can see, given by

18     General Rupert Smith to the Dutch NIOD, the Dutch institute that was

19     investigating the Srebrenica events.

20             Can we look at paragraph 17 now, please.  And if we can look at

21     the last paragraph, which is on page 6 in the Serbian version, and this

22     is already shown in the English version, paragraph 17, which is above,

23     immediately above, paragraph 18.  We need to look at that part of it.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And it states -- I quote what Mr. Rupert Smith said:

Page 13124

 1             "Eventually, Mladic gave permission to the ICRC to visit the

 2     prisoners.  At that time, he was not concerned about reports that the BSA

 3     had separated men and women in Srebrenica, as the ABiH did exactly the

 4     same when they captured large villages."

 5             Did you know, through the media or in other ways, that

 6     General Ratko Mladic approved or allowed the ICRC to register all the

 7     prisoners of war in Srebrenica?  Thank you.

 8        A.   I know from the media, as I said, from the footage that is

 9     constantly being played, and from looking at parts of the transport of

10     the population from Srebrenica to the B&H Federation, that the buses and

11     the trucks that were going mostly were transporting women.  There was the

12     odd man, also, among them.

13             As for the records and the presence of certain institutions, I

14     really couldn't say anything about that as precisely as I have been able

15     to talk about matters in the East Bosnia Corps AOR.  That was my

16     responsibility.  You could see in the footage also vehicles of the then

17     UNPROFOR and other international institutions.  I assume that they did

18     compile some kind of record.  I don't know whether they did manage to

19     compile complete records or not.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at D193 now,

22     please.  This is a statement by General Rupert Smith that he gave to this

23     Court on the 14th of August, 1996.

24             Yes, thank you.  Can we ask the e-court, after showing the first

25     page, to show us page 17, paragraph 4.  [Microphone not activated]

Page 13125

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone is off.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   We can see the first paragraph in English.  That is what we will

 6     be looking at.  And we can see the last paragraph on that page in the

 7     Serbian version, where General Smith states on the first line that

 8     General Mladic was in Belgrade on the 14th of July for meetings.  And

 9     then in line 5, he states that he was also there on the 15th of July.

10     And then in line 11, he says that Milosevic imposed on Mladic to allow

11     access of humanitarian agencies to Srebrenica and to permit freedom of

12     movement for UNPROFOR and UNHCR, and so on and so forth.

13             I would like to ask you this:  Did you also perhaps hear through

14     the media anything of what was at the meeting that was held between

15     General Milosevic, General De Lapresle, Mladic, Rupert Smith, and others

16     who were present at -- in this delegation?  Thank you.

17        A.   I mentioned a little bit earlier that I assume and believe, as an

18     officer of my rank, that that was the course of the conversation or the

19     talks in Belgrade.  All the more so because after the meeting the

20     Republic of Serbia organised a reception centre for Muslims who had

21     crossed over across the Drina in the broader area of Uzice.  I assume

22     that during the talks an agreement was reached with General Mladic to

23     provide transport and the possibility to relocate those who wanted to go

24     to Tuzla, or Sarajevo, or anywhere they decided in order to resolve the

25     situation of a large number of people in one place in circumstances that

Page 13126

 1     were very difficult for survival.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at D152.  Can we

 4     not, please, broadcast the document publicly because this is a statement

 5     by Witness PW-06, who's protected.  Can we look at page 3 in the Serbian,

 6     paragraph 1, and page 3 in the English, also paragraph 1.  Thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   And we can see where it states -- in the first line, you cannot

 9     see the whole sentence.  It says:

10             "... a jeep arrived, and he was in uniform.  I knew it was

11     Mladic, as I recognised him, and I was told that he would come.  I was

12     about 10 to 15 metres from him when he gave a speech, standing by the

13     side of the pitch.  He spoke without a megaphone, just normally, as it

14     was very quiet.  He stated that he was General Mladic and said that we

15     would all be exchanged and that there were hundreds of Serb lines between

16     here and Tuzla and that not even a bird would be able to get through the

17     lines.  He said we would be organised into groups to collect all the

18     bodies from the hills and then we would be taken to Bratunac to have

19     lunch there.  He then chose five of his men to begin making lists of our

20     first and last names, which lasted nearly an hour."

21             And so on and so forth, end of quote.

22             Now, did you see, in the footage showing General Mladic during

23     those events, General Mladic addressing the prisoners and saying that

24     they would be exchanged?  These were the activities that took place on

25     the 13th.  Thank you.

Page 13127

 1        A.   It could not have been the 13th.  He was in Belgrade on the

 2     13th and the 14th.  Perhaps it was the 12th.  I did watch the footage

 3     repeatedly, a number of times, of his address, and, in a way, I saw the

 4     expressions of gratitude on the faces of those present, in a way; also

 5     about the words he had directed at the persons who were present there who

 6     I could see in the footage.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the topic also discussed here during

 8     this case was the fact that somebody had changed the decision about

 9     sending the prisoners to Batkovic?  Thank you.

10        A.   Well, my testimony, from the beginning of the interview with me

11     in Belgrade, and then on Monday when I was questioned by the Prosecutor,

12     up until now, I keep saying, and I responsibly stand by that, that the

13     command of the East Bosnia Corps received a telegram informing us to make

14     preparations for whatever this -- the name of this general was who wrote

15     this document that I'm looking at in front of me now.  I don't know why

16     somebody changed this decision which had been issued at that time.  I

17     don't know that to this day.  In your conversation -- I mean, in my

18     conversation on the telephone with you, it was evident that they were not

19     coming.  And then General Simic, my commander, ordered that to me.

20        Q.   All right.  We will deal with that later, but let's just stay, so

21     that we maintain continuity, let's stay with this.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that the participants of those -- a

24     participant in those events, during trial here, Captain Nikolic, on

25     page 60 of the transcript, lines 15 to 16, stated that Colonel Beara, on

Page 13128

 1     the 6th of April, at a meeting held at the SDS, told Deronjic that he had

 2     an order from his boss that everyone should stay in Bratunac?  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             I'm not sure if we have a -- well, I think -- I'm quite confident

 6     we have a translation issue.  What we have in the transcript here is:

 7             "... that Colonel Beara, on the 6th of April, had a meeting at

 8     the SDS, told Deronjic that he had an order from his boss that everyone

 9     should stay in Bratunac."

10             It just seems to be completely in contradiction to the evidence

11     in the case, so I thought we should straighten that out.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, I was surprised about that as well.

13             Please check what you were talking about, Mr. Tolimir.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             Perhaps I was speaking too fast, perhaps unclearly, so we will

16     clarify that now.

17             Page 12420, lines 9 to 16, Mr. Nikolic states:

18             "Then, at the meeting, everybody thought they should be killed in

19     Bratunac."

20             It says "everybody thought," and not "everybody said."

21             "At the beginning, Colonel Beara was the one who insisted that

22     they need to stay in Bratunac, regardless of the fact that I was already

23     travelling to Zvornik to convey the order.  I don't know exactly what

24     happened, but I can assume that probably in the meantime, in all that

25     confusion, there was a change in the order.  But I don't know that.  I

Page 13129

 1     cannot talk about that because I don't know whom they received the order

 2     from.  I am just saying what I know."

 3             End of quote of what Witness Nikolic stated, who was an

 4     eye-witness and who was present at the meeting that was held at the SDS

 5     premises in Bratunac.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So my question is this:  Since Mr. Nikolic also said there was a

 8     change of order involved, did the Prosecutor, when he questioned you,

 9     when he talked about a change in order, did he tell you anything about a

10     change of the order, since you gave your own comment on that and in view

11     of the fact that only somebody who is not quite in their right mind could

12     do something like that?  So were you told anything else?  Do you know any

13     other details about this change of order?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             I would just ask General Tolimir to clarify that question.  It's,

17     first, a bit long, and, secondly, it talks about changes in an order

18     which he hasn't identified for this witness.  One is a change in order

19     that Nikolic, the witness, testified about, which is a separate issue

20     altogether than what this witness has testified about in his direct

21     examination and so far on cross-examination.  So to the extent that

22     there's a change in the plan or a change in the order, it would be

23     helpful if General Tolimir could clarify specifically what he's talking

24     about and put his case to the witness.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

Page 13130

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             I asked the witness whether he had been shown a portion of the

 3     testimony in the Popovic case, where those things were said about the

 4     prisoners of war, and he gave his answer.  So that is the basis for my

 5     question.  That was number 1.

 6             Number 2, I also read out a portion of what Nikolic had said

 7     about the change of the orders, and I said, When Nikolic said at the very

 8     beginning Colonel Beara was the person who insisted that they should stay

 9     in Bratunac, irrespective of the fact that I had already gone to Zvornik

10     in order to relay that order.  In other words, he went to Zvornik to tell

11     them that they would come to Zvornik, and then suddenly there was a

12     change in orders.  And then he goes on to say, I don't know exactly what

13     happened, but it's possible that in all the confusion that ensued there

14     was a change in the orders.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   So my question is this:  From what Mr. Nikolic said, is it clear

17     that there was some kind of change in the orders that were issued that he

18     knew nothing about?  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to put this question in a different

20     way.

21             Do you know anything about the change of the order?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't really know.  And that's

23     what I said earlier.  What I do know is there were orders to make the

24     preparations.  And since that did not happen, I then called and asked,

25     When are they arriving?  And then they said, You can stop with your

Page 13131

 1     preparations; there was a change.  And why this happened, I don't know,

 2     and I haven't found out to this day.

 3             And I think there was a slight error in the transcript.  The date

 4     that is mentioned for the meeting was the 5th of April, but that's

 5     impossible because -- because the 5th of April and July are two

 6     completely different months.  So it's impossible that this meeting would

 7     have been on the 5th of April with Beara.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if this was

10     just a slip of the tongue or a misinterpretation - probably a slip of the

11     tongue - but Mr. Nikolic was the one who testified on the 6th of April in

12     this case.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's correct.

14             Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry to belabour the point.  It's just that

16     the meeting itself is recorded as having occurred on the 6th of April,

17     which is not possible.  So I would appreciate it if that's clarified for

18     the record so that we know what meeting we're talking about and when.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which meeting are you referring to?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm referring to the

23     meeting that was held on the 13th, going on the 14th, the SDS session,

24     the meeting that was attended by Beara, Deronjic, and Vasic, and that was

25     the meeting that Mr. Nikolic referred to on the 6th of April of this year

Page 13132

 1     in this case before the Trial Chamber.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you mean the 13th and 14th of July, 1995;

 3     correct?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct.  Thank you,

 5     Your Honour.  My apologies.  I omitted the month and the year.  This was

 6     on the 13th, going on the 14th of July, 1995.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Todorovic, do you know anything about this

 8     meeting?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know anything about this

10     meeting then or later, much later.  I only learned later on by watching

11     some TV programmes which showed footage of some Parliament sessions.  And

12     among other things -- or, rather, court sessions, court proceedings.  And

13     among other things, I happened to watch a report from the court where

14     this was mentioned.  So I didn't have any information on that meeting

15     then about the meeting itself.  And what I learned later on from various

16     sources, that was really not my personal knowledge, and I can't really

17     say anything about it.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

19             Mr. Tolimir, your next question, please.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, in order for us to be able to focus on the

23     questions, and I notice that you wanted to discuss this issue of when the

24     prisoners of war would arrive at your site, and I would now like to show

25     document P2183, page 32 in Serbian and 35 in English, lines 25

Page 13133

 1     through 34.

 2             This is the first draft or the first version of what you said

 3     about your contacts with me, and then we'll see that later on that

 4     changed slightly in answer to various questions.

 5             Now, you say the following, and I'll quote:

 6             "I cannot be sure about the dates --"

 7             "I cannot be sure about the dates, but I will tell you what I was

 8     tasked to do in relation to that.  Whether this happened in direct

 9     contact with him," and you're referring to me there, "or by telegram that

10     we received, it's very difficult for me to say after all this time has

11     elapsed."

12             Based on what I've read out, my question is this:  Can you tell

13     us now whether this happened in direct contact or whether you received a

14     telegram?  Regardless of how that can be interpreted.

15        A.   What we see here before us, that's correct, that's what I said.

16     This was the first interview with me, and I said that in answer to

17     questions about the events that were far later, and that is why I said

18     what I said there.  After this, I gave this some thought.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  I'll put some additional questions

20     about this.

21             So you say -- you go on to say the following:

22             "I was supposed to convey to the commander for him to take

23     measures that Batkovic be prepared -- that hangars be prepared for

24     accommodating 1200 people who had been captured in Srebrenica, and that

25     they would be brought to Batkovic."

Page 13134

 1             Thank you.

 2             So my question is this -- we'll come to my next question later,

 3     so my question relating to this is the following:  From what you say

 4     here, is it clear that General Simic, as the commander, was supposed to

 5     take steps to prepare Batkovic for accommodating a certain number of

 6     prisoners of war?  Thank you.

 7        A.   During this interview with the investigator, I used civilian

 8     terminology, more or less, and that is why I used the phrases "to take

 9     steps" or "to request" or "ask him," "to convey that to him," and so on;

10     however, now, as I sit here today, as a witness and as an officer, in

11     military parlance that would mean that I would have to convey an order

12     from a superior command, in other words, from the Main Staff, to him, and

13     that he should, as a commander, take steps to make preparations for the

14     accommodation and reception of this number of prisoners of war.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.

16             Could you tell us now:  Did I have the right to issue orders to

17     corps commanders, and was that within my ambit and within my

18     competencies?  Could you tell us, under the law, how was that, and what

19     is your opinion of that?

20        A.   You could not issue orders to corps commanders or to any other

21     commanders from subordinated units.  You could convey an order from the

22     commander of the Main Staff, but then you would have to indicate, "by

23     authority of," so and so.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             Now, let's take a look at the last two sentences in this

Page 13135

 1     paragraph:

 2             "In a way, we were fortunate, in this unfortunate affair, because

 3     we had some 40 people who were captured, members of the VRS, who had been

 4     captured in Majevica and who were in Tuzla, and once these prisoners from

 5     Srebrenica arrived, we figured that we would be able to exchange them for

 6     our own men."

 7             Thank you.  End of quote.

 8             So my question is:  Were you happy about suggestions or proposals

 9     such as these, or were you happy or fortunate because --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter requests that the question be

11     repeated.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The end of your question was not interpreted to

13     us and not recorded, Mr. Tolimir.  Please repeat the last -- just the

14     last part.

15             The beginning of your question was:

16             "Were you happy about suggestions or proposals such as these ..."

17             And you should continue again your question.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   So was it our good fortune, relating to these proposals or

21     suggestions that were made, of course, pursuant to an order that you said

22     had not been sent to you?  Thank you.

23        A.   Well, I said this in the statement.  This was a stroke of good

24     luck and this whole misfortune, misfortune because there was this huge

25     number of prisoners of war and because of their suffering; that was the

Page 13136

 1     misfortune.  The good stroke of fortune was that we would in this way be

 2     able to exchange our own men for these members of the BH Army.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we need our second break now.

 4             Could you tell us the time you need for concluding your

 5     cross-examination after the break?  I expressed my expectation to be able

 6     to finish with this witness today.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             I think we will be able to complete our questioning if the

 9     witness sticks to the questions and gives brief answers, without giving

10     his own broad descriptions.  I think we can actually complete it today.

11     Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means you need the remainder of the hearing

13     today.

14             Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

16             As I understood, your prior direction is that your expectation

17     was that the witness's testimony would be completed today.  In view of

18     the detail to which -- into which his cross-examination has gone, I don't

19     anticipate being able to complete his -- a redirect examination, which

20     I think may be necessary, within the amount of time we have left, even

21     assuming that General Tolimir hurries through the remainder of his

22     cross-examination.  I just don't think that it's possible to finish it.

23     And I understand your direction, and I hope to abide by it, but I just

24     want to let you know that it's really not quite that possible at this

25     point.

Page 13137

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 2             Indeed, under these circumstances, it's not possible to finish

 3     with the witness today.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, you have used five hours and nine minutes up to now.

 5             We have our second break now and resume at 1.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  We stopped at page 33 in the Serbian,

12     lines 17 through 19.  That is page 35 in the English version.

13             You say -- I hope you can see the line on the screen.  It is

14     where the cursor is:

15             "I can't recall the date.  I don't know if it was on the 12th,

16     13th, or the 11th, in the evening, but immediately following the fall of

17     Srebrenica.  It was definitely not on the 15th."

18             Next, in line 24 --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we need the English text on the

20     screen as well.  Could you say on which page we can find it?

21             Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Page 35, the last paragraph.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

24             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 13138

 1        Q.   Next, in lines 23 through 27, which is the next page in the

 2     English, you say that you do not exclude the possibility that we either

 3     met or that a telegram arrived.  Based on that, I wanted to ask you the

 4     following:  When providing this interview, did you always repeatedly say

 5     that you were uncertain about the time, precisely, because a lot of time

 6     has elapsed, and that you cannot be specific as to the date?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Is there a possibility that later on, when questions were put to

 9     you and insistence placed on confirming something you cannot recall, you

10     made certain changes to the original interview you provided in Belgrade?

11        A.   Partially, yes.  But the gist of my original statement remains

12     unchanged.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us look at page 37 in the

14     Serbian, lines 21 and 22, and then 27 through 34.  Page 39 in the

15     English.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   In line 15, you were asked this:

18             "Do you remember what date that was?  Approximately."

19             And you respond:

20             "Between the 15th and the 20th of July."

21             In line 27, you say:

22             "I don't recall exactly what the date was, and I don't know

23     whether it was in person or by telegram," when Tolimir told you to

24     prepare Batkovic.

25             So in line 32, you said that you couldn't be specific on that

Page 13139

 1     either.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Is what you recall accurately reflected in the interview you gave

 4     in Belgrade?

 5        A.   Yes.  Just a brief remark, though.

 6             I think that the 15th or the 20th has to do with the other piece

 7     of information and that is that all preparations were to be stopped

 8     because they weren't going to arrive at Batkovici.  It didn't concern

 9     their reception.

10        Q.   Do you remember what happened between the 15th and the 20th at

11     Baljkovica or in the AOR of the Zvornik Brigade through which the Muslim

12     division was breaking through?

13        A.   Concerning the dates following the 12th of July, in the AOR of

14     the Zvornik Brigade, there was combat.  There were attempts for columns

15     of soldiers and civilians from Srebrenica to forcefully break through to

16     Tuzla.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well see D176 in e-court, page 4,

19     please.  Thank you.

20             We see it now.  Please turn the next page - my mistake - which is

21     page 5.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   On this page --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which page in English ?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Four -- sorry, 6.

Page 13140

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   The - first, second, third, fifth - sixth bullet point, where it

 3     says:  "The 2nd Corps Command."  It says:

 4             "In the morning on the 15th of July, 1995," it is page 6 in

 5     English, "in the general area of Snagovo, significant combat could be

 6     heard.  We learned that parts of the 28th Land Force's Division were

 7     engaging in combat, and in their reports they refer to us as the

 8     aggressor."

 9             Were the media also reporting on conflicts between the

10     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina's forces breaking out from Srebrenica and

11     the forces of the Zvornik Brigade at Baljkovica?

12        A.   I see this document for the first time.  I can't comment.  As for

13     the media, yes, they were reporting on it.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you see that on the 15th the breakthrough began,

15     and does this tally with what you recall of those events?

16        A.   Well, I can see from the document that on the 15th these things

17     transpired.  As for what I said in my interview, mentioning the 15th or

18     the 20th, this was an approximation which I gave after quite some time.

19        Q.   The information that was made public through the media, was it

20     the basis for the conversation you and I had over the phone, which you

21     mentioned?

22        A.   No.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next please have 07314.

24     07314.

25             We can see it in the Serbian.  Can we have it in English as well.

Page 13141

 1             It's an order of the Main Staff of the 16th of July, sent to the

 2     Command of the East Bosnian Corps, the Drina Corps, the

 3     1st Light Podrinje Brigade, and the Zvornik Brigade.  We see that it has

 4     to do with a transfer of detainees to the Batkovic Camp.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   In the introduction, it says:

 7             "Based on demonstrated need and for the purpose of the more

 8     effective exchange of detainees, I hereby order:"

 9             Can you tell us whether the demonstrated need pertained to the

10     prisoners of your corps, and was their exchange something that was

11     expected?

12        A.   Thank God that finally I can see the document we have been

13     discussing all along.  I've been trying to say that there must have been

14     a document issued to the Command of the Eastern Bosnia Corps when it was

15     ordered to receive prisoners from the area of the Drina Corps.

16        Q.   We see, in item 1, the following:

17             "Transfer all soldiers and civilians who are now in the prisons

18     in your zone of responsibility to the Batkovic Collection Camp in

19     Bijeljina."

20             Is this camp -- was this camp under your corps control?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Let's look at item 2:

23             "In its zone of responsibility, the Command of the Drina Corps

24     and the Eastern Bosnia Corps shall organise the transport of detainees to

25     the Batkovic Camp in Bijeljina."

Page 13142

 1             My question is this:  Did they, indeed, bring in those detainees,

 2     apart from the ones you brought in from Pandurevic?

 3        A.   No prisoners were brought in before there was a final agreement

 4     between General Simic, commander of the East Bosnia Corps, and

 5     Colonel Pandurevic, which was after the 15th.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I have to interrupt for a moment.

 7             I see in the head of this letter the date of the

 8     16th of July, 1993.  And you see, under item 4, that:

 9             "The Command and the DK shall report to me ... no later than

10     22nd of July, 1993."

11             I don't know if this is just a typo or an error.  I have no idea.

12     But it seems to be a document from 1993.  Please clarify that.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It says "1993," as you

14     specified.  I wanted to ask Todorovic this:

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   The other document, in terms of order format, was it similar to

17     the one we are looking at now?

18        A.   I didn't even notice the date.  I was so happy to see this;

19     that's why I said, "thank God."  It was something similar that arrived on

20     the 11th, 12th, or the 13th, in the evening.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you please explain why you said "thank God."

22     What was it what you wanted to express?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to express the following:

24     All along, from the Belgrade interview until this moment, I was asked and

25     expected to be precise and specific in terms of dates, document contents,

Page 13143

 1     and who wrote what, who it was sent to, et cetera.  However, when I saw

 2     this, I thought it was the document from 1995, and I was happy to see

 3     that there was something concrete that finally I wouldn't have to guess

 4     on as to whether I have to provide an answer about the 11th, the 12th, or

 5     the 15th, because I really can't recall the date and specific detail.

 6     Time has taken its toll.  And when I saw this document, I was relieved of

 7     this burden, so to speak.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand.  But now you see this is a document

 9     with a date of 1993.  Have you ever seen this document before?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I wasn't in the

11     East Bosnian Corps on that date.  This is July, and I only joined the

12     corps in November.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  My question is this:  The order you

16     saw a moment ago, was it similar, in terms of format and content, to this

17     one from 1993, given that the Prosecution doesn't have that piece of

18     paper?

19        A.   As far as I can remember, I think that the order is of similar

20     format and content and that it arrived, but it had the number 1000 --

21     1200, the approximate number.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 02264.  This is

24     a 65 ter document.  Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 13144

 1        Q.   Could you please look at the fifth paragraph.

 2             And before that, I'm going to say to the transcript that this is

 3     a document of the 26th of July, 1995.  Paragraph 5, beginning with the

 4     words:  "On ..."  and this is the second paragraph up from paragraph

 5     marked "2."  This is in the English, and it states:

 6             "Thirty-four straggling enemy soldiers from Srebrenica

 7     surrendered in the course of the day.  They were taken to the prison in

 8     Batkovic."

 9             Do you see that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Does this report indicate that some order was sent according to

12     which the prisoners from the corps were supposed to be taken to

13     Batkovici, because this is a document dated the 26th of July?

14        A.   Yes.  This is the contingent that was handed over and taken to

15     Batkovic on the basis of agreement of the commander of the

16     East Bosnian Corps, General Simic, with Colonel Pandurevic, the commander

17     of the Zvornik Brigade.

18        Q.   Thank you.  But here, there is 34 and 26 mentioned.  In the other

19     one, it was the 16th, in your statement about combat and the conversation

20     between Simic and Pandurevic.  Thank you.

21        A.   Then and now, I would like to keep emphasizing that I cannot

22     remember the date.  It's been a long time since then.  I don't know if

23     this was on the 15th or the 16th.  Here, we have 34 in total because

24     during the combat and the surrender of those who were trying to break

25     through towards Tuzla in combat, they were taken to the

Page 13145

 1     Batkovic Collection Centre.  Actually, approximately 160 to 180 prisoners

 2     of war were taken to the Batkovic Prison.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  I'm just looking for things that are

 4     going to help you remember and also help us to present to the

 5     Trial Chamber all the relevant facts.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document that

 7     we're looking at now so that I could call up another document into

 8     e-court.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we please clarify, before that, what is

10     your intention in relation to 65 ter 7314.  That was the document of the

11     16th of July, 1993.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.  Could we

13     tender this so that we could see who was responsible for ordering units

14     in the Army of Republika Srpska to transfer prisoners from one zone to

15     another.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7314 shall be

18     assigned Exhibit D226.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  And 65 ter document --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, wait a moment.  We have still on the screen

22     65 ter 2264; is that correct?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Indeed, that's correct.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I didn't see the signature.  I would like to see

25     that first.

Page 13146

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document will be received as well.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2264 shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit D227.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, since this is a document dated the 26th of July

10     and it was signed by the commander of the Drina Corps, does that mean

11     that there has to be an order ordering him to send all the prisoners from

12     his AOR to the East Bosnia Corps AOR, and does all this indicate that you

13     actually did see an order to that effect?

14        A.   Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 02688, please.

16     Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can I ask you now to look at the contents of this order, signed

19     by the justice minister, Zoran Cvetanovic [phoen].  And it states:

20             "In reference to your memo," number such and such," please be

21     informed that in memo 04/1/9-85 from the General Staff on the

22     7th of March, 2001, we subsequently received --"

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't know why I don't know this document.  We

24     have to clarify that before you are continuing reading into the

25     transcript.  It was a prosecution document, I was told.

Page 13147

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             Probably because of the names, because there are lists inside.

 3     So probably it's under seal because of the names of the Muslims.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Anyway, my question to the witness is this:  Does this document

 6     provide information on the prisoners being sent to the Batkovic Prison

 7     after the events in Srebrenica in July?

 8        A.   Yes, but I would also need to see the attachment.

 9        Q.   All right.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please ask the e-court to

11     show the next page.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.

13             Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             We're not broadcasting this document, I take it.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  The reason for it is because of the names

18     on the list.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And these are in the attachment, I assume.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  They are in the attachment; that's right.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  You may go to the next page without

22     broadcasting it.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We can see a list here.  Can you please look at the entries.  The

Page 13148

 1     dates, all the dates, are later than the 18th of July, meaning that this

 2     is after the events in Srebrenica, after the breakthrough.  The list has

 3     the names of -- and we will look at the numbers.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we turn a few pages so that

 5     we can see that the list contains 171 persons.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You will see that for yourself.  And the remark also notes that

 8     the listed persons are also registered on the list of the ICRC, and the

 9     ICRC representatives were present during their exchange.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             Only a minor point.  General Tolimir's question is translated as

13     his having said that the dates are later than the 18th, and I think you

14     can see in e-court, on the first page, at least, that there are at least

15     five on the first page and a few also on the third page, and so on.  So

16     the record should just reflect that that is the case.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we go back to the first page of this list.

18             And now to the next page.  Thank you.

19             There are some entries of the 18th of July, 1995, but not before

20     that.

21             Mr. Vanderpuye.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President, there are entries on the

23     18th on the second -- that's the first page here that I see in e-court,

24     and then there are entries on the 18th, skipping a page after that, and

25     then there are entries on the 18th again, skipping a page after that.  So

Page 13149

 1     it would be pages 1, 3, 5, and 6, it looks like, and 7.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, did all of these exchanges take place after

 7     July 1995 - thank you - as it states in the heading of the document that

 8     the exchange was effected at the end of the year?

 9        A.   Yes, that is clear and confirms the number that I gave as being

10     between 170 and 180.  The list contains the names of 171 persons.  I

11     assume, since this is easier for me to decipher, and I don't want to

12     mislead anyone, I think there is a typo.  The person under number 1

13     entered Batkovici on the 18th of July ...

14             May I continue?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And they left the 10th of July, so

17     this is not logical.  They cannot be released before they were admitted.

18     So this is probably the 10th of September.  That should probably be the

19     correct date.  Or perhaps the 10th of August.  Perhaps we need to go

20     through the whole list, because the exchanges were effected on different

21     dates.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.  That is very

23     helpful.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's one thing that doesn't make

25     sense.  It's probably a typo.  Perhaps the list needs to be checked.

Page 13150

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, when you looked at the list and you spotted the

 4     errors that you drew the Chamber's attention to, and when -- these

 5     persons who were exchanged from Batkovici after the events in Srebrenica,

 6     did they come to Batkovici after the events in Srebrenica?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Were they all registered with the ICRC?

 9        A.   Yes.  And that is what it states in the note on the document.

10        Q.   Were they there, all of them, from the 18th to the 23rd, the

11     24th, the 25th, the 26th?  Is that the date when they entered Batkovici,

12     and later they were exchanged, and is this something that you can see

13     from this list?  Thank you.

14        A.   Yes.  May I, briefly, just for a minute, so that I confirm the

15     things that I have been saying so far.  And that is that the military

16     police unit that was going to the Zvornik Brigade AOR on a daily basis

17     from the 18th up until the 26th, depending on the number of prisoners

18     that they were taking into custody every day, they would bring them in,

19     accommodate them, and register them at the Batkovic Collection Centre.

20             So it does not stand, what was said in one of the statements that

21     I saw here, that a military police platoon of the East Bosnia Corps took

22     part in combat actions, because a part of the military police unit from

23     the East Bosnia Corps went only when there was a certain number of

24     prisoners of war captured.  They would take custody of them and escort

25     them to the Batkovic Collection Centre.

Page 13151

 1             And so I have been repeating that since Belgrade up until this

 2     point in time; I've been repeating that constantly.  And now I can really

 3     stand by the dates, even though I don't have my work note-book or any

 4     kind of work document.  And I would like you to understand that it's very

 5     difficult for me to say whether something occurred on a very specific

 6     date or not.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, are you aware that the corridor for all Muslims

10     who were trying to get through from Baljkovica was open with the

11     agreement of the Zvornik Brigade commander, and that is the route used by

12     those who were breaking out through from Srebrenica and going towards

13     Zvornik and Kladovo?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your answer, please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It states "Kladovo."  Actually,

16     it's not Kladovo; it's Kladanj.  Kladovo is in a different state.

17     Actually, I didn't know that at the time because I was busy with my own

18     assignments.  Later, I learned about that fact.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Todorovic, did you have chemical devices in order

21     to suppress demonstrations in the police units of the

22     Eastern Bosnia Corps?

23        A.   As far as I know, and I think I do know, we didn't have such

24     equipment or devices.

25        Q.   Thank you.  The units in which you served, did they have such

Page 13152

 1     devices or equipment at their disposal?  Do you know that?

 2        A.   I don't know that they had such chemical combat devices in their

 3     depots and at their disposal.  But during our training, we did study that

 4     form of combat means and their applications.  As a person who went to the

 5     Staff School, I did put the question whether I or any of my colleagues

 6     would need to have such devices, and the answer was, If there is a need,

 7     then we would have such devices.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P2155, please.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And what about the document we just had on the

11     screen?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am sorry, Mr. President.  I would

13     like to tender it and have it admitted, if possible.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received, under seal.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2688 shall be

16     assigned Exhibit D228, to remain under seal.  Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, you can see here that the command of the

19     27th Logistics Base, for the needs of the Drina Corps, on the

20     21st of July, forwarded, one, chemical rifle grenades, SKD M-83, then

21     chemical rifle grenades SKE M-83 and special hand-grenades, M-79 AG1.  As

22     a soldier, can you tell us what this "M-83" and "M-79" stands for?

23        A.   When there is designation "M" on lethal assets, it means that it

24     was the year when the prototype, with the production of the assets, was

25     initiated.

Page 13153

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at D200 next, please.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the number

 3     of the document we have just seen because the number was not recorded.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Mr. President, a moment ago we saw P2155.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we are looking at D200.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, you can see before you a rifle grenade.  It is

10     M-83 we saw a moment ago on the document.  It's a chemical rifle

11     brigade [as interpreted] for training purposes, M-83.  The title was not

12     translated.  But how can you tell that this is a training asset, rather

13     than a lethal asset?

14        A.   All assets, such as ammunition, mines, et cetera, that are used

15     for training soldiers and officers were marked in yellow, including the

16     text, so as to distinguish it for security purposes, so that in the

17     course of training, true lethal assets would not be used by mistake.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we next see D201.  And this has

20     already been admitted, I believe.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   We can see here a special hand-grenade, M-79 AG1, the same one

23     referred to in the previous document.  Do you recognise it as a training

24     asset?

25        A.   The same answer applies.  We can see the red line.

Page 13154

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Yellow line.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   During your education, were you told that it was made available

 4     to units of the military police in order to suppress riots and control

 5     masses?

 6        A.   Yes.  This type of asset was at the disposal of the civilian and

 7     military police.  They were mild tear gas assets causing temporary

 8     inability to act and not causing death or injury.  They were usually used

 9     to suppress riots.  This is not a chemical weapon belonging to a category

10     of weapons of mass destruction.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We did our best to

12     conclude with your testimony.

13             I have no further questions of the witness.  I wish him a safe

14     journey back and a happy life in retirement.

15             Thank you, Mr. Todorovic, and greetings to your family.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             We have to adjourn for the day.  We are at the end of today's

18     hearing.  We resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom,

19     Courtroom II, and then Mr. Vanderpuye, for the Prosecution, has some

20     additional questions for you.

21             We adjourn.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

25                           April, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.