Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15169

 1                           Tuesday, 7 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             The witness should be brought in, please.

 7             Mr. Gajic.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, while we wait for the

10     witness, I wanted to raise a brief issue.

11             Exhibit P2251.  There are actually two exhibits that have been

12     assigned the same number which is P2251.  Namely, 65 ter 4088 by the OTP;

13     and 2240.  They were both placed under the same number in two different

14     locations.

15             Could we please deal with that so that both of them would have

16     different numbers.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this information,

19     Mr. Gajic.  Mr. Registrar will check that and he just confirmed to me

20     that you are right.  And it will be put on the record the relevant

21     correction.

22             Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome back to the courtroom.  I have to

23     remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth you made at the

24     beginning of your testimony still applies.

25                           WITNESS:  LJUBOMIR MITROVIC [Resumed]

Page 15170

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer is continuing his

 3     examination-in-chief.

 4             You have the floor, Mr. Thayer.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to you and

 6     Your Honours.  Good afternoon to the Defence.  Good afternoon, everyone.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]

 8        Q.   And good afternoon to you, Mr. Mitrovic.

 9             When we left off yesterday, sir, you were in the process of

10     describing for us the general structure an operation of the

11     Eastern Bosnia Corps Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War.

12             Did part of the commission's work also include the exchange of

13     the mortal remains of soldiers from both sides of the conflict, or were

14     you occupied solely with living prisoners?

15        A.   We were also involved in exchanging the bodies of fallen

16     soldiers, as well as in exchanging of POWs.

17        Q.   And was the process with respect to repatriating those remains,

18     obtaining those remains, basically the same as that of exchanging living

19     prisoners?

20        A.   We met, exchanged lists, and made our requests known to the other

21     side.  We also went out in the field together to verify information.  And

22     at the next meeting, we would then acquaint the other side what it was

23     that we found out and what could we offer in terms of bodies at specific

24     locations for an exchange.  Once an exchange was set up, meetings were

25     held in different locations; but, in principle, it all went the same way.

Page 15171

 1     There would be a lull between the Serb and Federation lines, we would

 2     always come up with a suitable location at which we could meet up.

 3             Next, the bodies were brought in, exchanged, and then taken to

 4     their respective sides.  It didn't necessarily always take place after

 5     combat.  When I arrived, there were some mortal remains dating back to

 6     1992.  Many bodies were still unknown, and we have to conduct our

 7     searches to have an actual exchange.  As a matter of fact, even to date,

 8     it is unfinished process.

 9        Q.   Sir, I'd like to turn your attention now to a different topic and

10     I would like to you focus, if you would, on the year 1995 and

11     specifically on July of 1995.

12             Do you recall at some point that month a meeting being scheduled

13     near Sarajevo in Kiseljak?  And, if you do, would you please tell the

14     Trial Chamber what you remember about that meeting.

15        A.   There was meeting involving the state commission which was

16     scheduled to take place in Kiseljak on the 11th of July, 1995.  I was

17     informed some two days before the meeting that there was going to be one,

18     and I got in touch with the president of the commission of the

19     1st Krajina Corps to travel there together, to car pool.  So we went to

20     Mount Jahorina on the 10th, spent the night there, and, on the 11th,

21     arrived in Lukavica.  That was our last defence line.  UNHCR armoured

22     vehicles arrived to the location, bringing representatives of the

23     commissions of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the East Bosnian Corps, the

24     1st Krajina Corps, and the state commission.  We all got in and went to

25     Kiseljak through Federation-held territory.  We came as far as the

Page 15172

 1     Kobiljaca pass where we were stopped by members of the HVO.  That area

 2     was populated by Croats, and there was a HVO unit that was stationed

 3     there.  It was very hot, and we were approached by a representative of

 4     that unit, a policeman.  He wanted to know who we were, and a person from

 5     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps spoke to him for a few minutes and said they

 6     knew each other, and he was familiar with the terrain.  He told the UNHCR

 7     representatives to raise the lids on the armoured vehicles so that we

 8     could get some fresh air because it was too warm.  There was no reply

 9     from Kiseljak regarding the meeting, and we were allowed to disembark.

10     We got out of the vehicles.  There were seven APCs in total.  I think

11     there were four ahead, then mine, and two in the back.

12             In any case, we waited outside for some two hours.  The APCs in

13     front of us went further to Kiseljak.  Those who brought us there wanted

14     to go as well, but the representatives of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

15     Commission did not allow that.  He wanted to know what we were going to

16     do, and we were told that neither Zenica, nor Tuzla Commission

17     representatives arrived in Kiseljak and that we were to go back.

18     However, we were unable because we no longer had sufficient APCs.

19             Lubura, that was his name, got into touch with his corps, and I

20     suppose his superior contacted the Main Staff; that is to say,

21     General Tolimir.  We were told that Tolimir had said that Srebrenica had

22     fallen and that the APCs were to be let go.  It was done in that way, and

23     we were there in a tight situation because we didn't know how to go back.

24     We managed to go back to Ilidza and after a couple of hours there, we

25     managed to find a four-by-four with old Sarajevo pre-war registration

Page 15173

 1     plates.  Our route took us just below the lines of the Federation and we

 2     drove fast.  All I can tell you is that we used forest roads, and instead

 3     of the 15 kilometres that we had to traverse, we actually made 168

 4     kilometres to finally end up in Jahorina, where we had left our vehicles.

 5             Once we got there, it was already dark and we were told not to go

 6     any further and to spend the night there.  We were also told that there

 7     was going to be a meeting the next day at Sarajevo airport.  Again, there

 8     were problems, because we had cancelled our accommodation.  But in the

 9     end, we were accommodated somehow and waited the next day's negotiations.

10     Nothing became of it, though.  There were only mutual accusations that

11     were exchanged.  Their state commission, that is to say, Amor Masovic

12     asserted that they were in Kiseljak asking why we didn't come.  Bulajic

13     said that the information he had received was that they did not appear

14     than we had to be -- had to have been told not to come.

15             In any case, there was no hope for any further constructive

16     dialogue and the only thing was -- that was arranged was to have another

17     meeting, nothing else.  We left on the 12th, including the commission

18     president and another member from the 1st Krajina Corps and myself from

19     the Eastern Bosnia Corps.  We got as far as Vlasenica, where we were held

20     at a check-point.  They told us we couldn't go any further because there

21     was combat further afield.  I was persistent.  I explained why I had to

22     continue, and eventually they let us through, up to Milici.  At Milici

23     there was a mixed check-point manned by our military police and the

24     civilian police, and they did not allow us to go any further afield.  At

25     that location we could even hear infantry fire, and I asked whether there

Page 15174

 1     was anyone who could approve my departure and I was told that I should go

 2     to the Milici Brigade commander.  I went to see him, introduced myself

 3     and asked him to let us through because the families of those missing had

 4     awaited me to see whether any agreement was reached on the prisoners.  He

 5     said that we can go at our own risk, and I agreed to that.  I told him we

 6     would try to get through.  It was true that there was combat near the

 7     road and we heard infantry fire and mortar explosions, but we got

 8     through.

 9             I arrived Bijeljina and the relatives of those missing waited --

10     awaited me in front of the office.  Although I was tired, I explained to

11     them what the situation was, and I told them that I believed an exchange

12     would be made possible which was something we couldn't have done before

13     because we had nothing to offer.  The Muslim side asked -- or conditioned

14     a one-for-one exchange, and that is why we had nothing in particular to

15     offer.  That is also the reason why there were many exchanges which did

16     not occur immediately after combat.  And this pre-condition of theirs was

17     a standing one.

18             The next day, the chief of security told me that he had spoken to

19     General Tolimir, who told him that he was to secure another hangar,

20     another hall to receive prisoners.  The figure that was specified was

21     around 1300.

22             I don't know whether the line of command and control was used by

23     General Mladic or by the Chief of Staff to order the commander of the

24     Eastern Bosnian Corps to convey to the head of the collection centre to

25     carry out those preparations.  Irrespective of that, those preparations

Page 15175

 1     were carried out, and two or three days later, the commander of the

 2     collection centre inquired why there were no prisoners coming and

 3     informed them that they had completed their part of the job.  Since I

 4     didn't go to Batkovici in the course of those few days, and I didn't go

 5     to the corps either, I called the president of the Drina Corps

 6     Commission.  His name was Slavko, I forgot his last name, but he was an

 7     elderly man.  Since we used an open line, I asked him about it, and he

 8     told me that I had to do something or there would be nothing out of what

 9     had been agreed.  It was put in a very -- in a way that wouldn't be

10     understood by the other side.

11             The next day, the chief of security informed me that a group of

12     20 wounded men from Srebrenica had arrived.  I told him there was nothing

13     I could do with 20 wounded people, because we had 101 prisoners, and he

14     said that -- that most likely, something would take place later on.  I

15     didn't mention to him what the commission president had told me.  The

16     municipal president from Ugljevik arrived, accompanied by members of

17     their commission for those who were captured or gone missing.  They came

18     to see me and I acquainted them with the situation.  Then the municipal

19     president offered for their units, that is to say, the 1st Majevica Unit

20     which was in the process of being formed, as well as a reconnaissance

21     unit of theirs to go to the area of combat, because there was still

22     stranded groups there.  His idea was basically to capture some more

23     people, in order to have sufficient numbers of them for an exchange.  I

24     told him that it was neither up to his brigade commander, nor him, and

25     that he was to go and see the corps commander.  The representatives then

Page 15176

 1     went to see the corps commander, and they explained their request to him.

 2     General Simic refused, and he said that he was going to send some

 3     policemen to come up with a sufficient number of captured soldiers for an

 4     exchange.  I never learned whether he did so; but, in any case, save for

 5     the 20, or in addition to the 20, there was another group totalling 168,

 6     I believe.  After that, the situation was completely different, and we

 7     were ready to negotiate.

 8             A commission member from Brcko was in touch with the Tuzla Canton

 9     Commission, and in my previous testimony I said that I did not want to be

10     in touch with them, because there were those who always expressed their

11     doubts, saying, See, he has his own arrangement with the other side.  And

12     I know what such rumours mean, because I had spent a number of years in

13     the security service.

14             In any case, the contact was established through him and a

15     meeting was arranged, at which I acquainted them with the situation.

16     They wanted to see our lists.  After the other group arrived, the ICRC

17     visited them.  I must tell you that I was somewhat upset at that moment,

18     and I was toying with the idea of refusing them a visit because when a

19     part of our brigade's territory was lost to the other side, for over 30

20     days the Tuzla authorities did not allow the ICRC to visit our captured

21     personnel.  I thought about it twice, and given the fact that we were on

22     good terms with the ICRC and it was not their fault, I agreed to their

23     visit.  The chief consented to that, and we allowed them toe go in.

24     There was also a simple explanation for it which was that the sooner they

25     made their own lists, the sooner the situation would be clearer and

Page 15177

 1     exchanges would take place.  Once they were there, they were also

 2     assisted medically.

 3             Between the contacts with this Tuzla Commission and our first

 4     exchange in September, there were about ten different meetings in

 5     different locations, such as in Brcko, or Lopare, trying to come up with

 6     the -- a procedural way to conduct that exchange, and they put a proposal

 7     that we would have an exchange, all for all, which was quite a turn from

 8     their one-for-one exchange position before.  This was favourable because

 9     the 1st Krajina Corps did not have a sufficient numbers of prisoners.  In

10     the end, there was a group of 66 captured at Majevica and Lisace, plus

11     another six.  We got this personnel back and exchanged our 78 prisoners.

12     Not all of them were fighters though.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were some people who had been

15     there earlier --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, may I interrupt you for a moment.  This

17     is the longest answer we ever have received in this trial.  You have a

18     lot to tell, but, in fact, Mr. Thayer was asking you about a specific

19     event which was scheduled for the 11th.  It is better for us and, for our

20     understanding, if that could be an exchange of views and giving answers

21     to specific questions by Mr. Thayer.  And I think there are some topics I

22     would like, and perhaps others would like to put a question as well to

23     that.

24             I would invite you to shorten your answers a bit so that we can

25     follow in a better way.

Page 15178

 1             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, if I may, because Mr. Mitrovic is a

 2     viva voce witness, the Trial Chamber doesn't have the benefit,

 3     necessarily, of his prior testimony and having the opportunity to read it

 4     as Your Honours do with the 92 ter testimony.  Obviously I refrained from

 5     interrupting Mr. Mitrovic in his answer to my one specific question.  The

 6     primary reason being that in the course of his narrative answer, he has

 7     very thoroughly, and I think clearly, touched on all the topics for which

 8     he has been called to testify, and I obviously do intend to follow up

 9     with some additional questions, go back.  But Mr. Mitrovic's answers have

10     been very much to the point of his testimony.  I understand it was a long

11     answer, but have no fear, Your Honours, we will go back and we will fill

12     in those gaps and I think you'll understand the various subchapters to

13     his testimony, as I clarify those.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's no doubt that all this information we

15     received by the witness relates to this case, no doubt.

16             Mr. Gajic.

17             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there seems to be a

18     technical problem because of the speed at which the witness speaks.  Line

19     8 -- page 8, line 19, there seems to -- a part of the sentence in missing

20     which is actually when Lisace fell.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At Majevica.  It's an area of

22     defence of the 1st Majevica Brigade.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer will deal with that, I'm sure.

24             May I -- as we have interrupted the witness, I just want to have

25     an answer to two questions with which I want to clarify something.

Page 15179

 1             At one point you said:

 2             "We didn't have anything to offer ..."

 3             And I would like to get an explanation.  What do you mean by

 4     that:

 5             "We didn't have anything to offer ..."?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not have fighters from the

 7     Tuzla Corps whom we had taken prisoner.  Those we had were from other

 8     areas, and from earlier, from the beginning of combat operations, for

 9     whom they were not too much interested in the places where they had come

10     from.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this clarification.

12             My second clarification I would like to ask you for is, in

13     relation to page 7, line 11.  You said:

14             "The next day, the chief of security informed me that a group of

15     20 wounded men from Srebrenica had arrived."

16             Who was this chief of security?  Which security unit are you

17     referring to and who -- which is the name of this person?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the chief of the Department

19     of Security of the Eastern Bosnia Corps, Milenko Todorovic.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, please carry on.

23             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Excuse me, for the interruption.

25             MR. THAYER:  Not at all.  I think we all were sharing the same

Page 15180

 1     sentiments and I do have a number of follow-up questions.

 2        Q.   Sir, let's go back and talk about, just a moment, the meeting

 3     that you had scheduled, that had a been scheduled for the 11th of July in

 4     Kiseljak.

 5             At that time, in July of 1995, from your corps' area of

 6     responsibility, how many Serb soldiers from the Eastern Bosnian Corps

 7     were being held by the Muslim side?

 8        A.   101 in Tuzla.  These were soldiers from the Serbian units of the

 9     Eastern Bosnia Corps.  However, there were others in Zenica, in Mostar,

10     in other areas.  From our corps, the prisoners were held in Tuzla.

11        Q.   And can you tell the Trial Chamber, out of those 101 Serb

12     prisoners being held by the Muslims, where had they been captured; and

13     approximately when?

14        A.   One group was captured in January.  I think it was January 1994.

15     That was on the Majevica front.  I think that the specific place was

16     Jesenica.

17             Another group was captured in March of the same year, I think,

18     and they were captured at Siroki Njive.  That is also on Majevica.  Both

19     places were held by the 1st Semberija Brigade, and these men were the

20     soldiers of this brigade.

21             However, before them, a part of the line of the 1st Majevica

22     Brigade fell also on Majevica in the Lisace sector.  That unit was

23     detached, which was defending Lisace.  Whether it was justified or not,

24     that's another issue.  But in any case, 61 soldiers survived.  I think

25     that 11 had been killed before Lisace fell.  The fighting lasted for

Page 15181

 1     about three or four days.  We tried to supply them with food, but they

 2     were left without food and water and eventually they surrendered.

 3        Q.   Now --

 4        A.   I cannot remember the exact dates, but it's possible that it was

 5     a little while before January 1994.  It was certainly in winter when

 6     Lisace fell.  There were also individuals, too.  For example, a soldier

 7     may have strayed to the other side, or another one was revolted and then

 8     walked out into a minefield.  And, in any case, the total number of our

 9     soldiers were 101; those who were held at the Tuzla prison.

10             At that time, there were only, if you allow me, there were only

11     five recently captured Muslim fighters.  It was a sabotage unit that had

12     infiltrated in our territory several days earlier, and they were the only

13     ones that they were interested in.

14        Q.   Now, a little later on in your answer of a few minutes ago, you

15     referred to 66 from Lisace.  What we have here in the transcript is 61

16     from Lisace.  Can you tell us, do you remember whether it was 61 or 66

17     Serb prisoners who were captured at Lisace and being held in Tuzla?

18        A.   I need to clarify that.

19             61 were captured at Lisace.  One who was sick, very much so, was

20     given to us as a present by Tuzla, because he was in a such bad state

21     that he was supposed to die.  And there were six others who had strayed

22     or somehow happened to cross over to the other side.  They were

23     individuals.  So there were those from Lisace, plus six others.

24        Q.   Okay.  That clarifies that.  Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic.

25             You've spoken a little bit already about the parents and

Page 15182

 1     relatives of these Serb soldiers being held in the Muslim prisons, being

 2     anxious to await your return from this meeting on 11 July.  Can you tell

 3     the Trial Chamber whether these parents were organised at all around this

 4     issue of returning their sons to them?

 5        A.   Yes.  They were organised.  A committee was formed in the

 6     territory of the Ugljevik municipality.  It was elected by parents.  They

 7     had a chairman.  They came to see me, and when we started talking about

 8     soldiers from the territory of this municipality, I took the

 9     representative of those who were captured to the negotiations.  I

10     introduced him to the other side so that he could hear what the problems

11     were and that he could truthfully relay the problems that exactly

12     existed.  Likewise from the area of the Bijeljina municipality, there was

13     also a committee.  The relatives elected their representatives and they

14     also communicated with me.

15             In addition to that, there were continuously individual whose

16     sidesteps [as interpreted] official organs or representatives.  They

17     would come to see me in the territory of Ugljevik.  After a certain

18     number of contacts, the parents would get together.  I would come there

19     to inform them in detail about the meetings I had attended, what was

20     agreed, and what the problems were.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, you told us that this scheduled meeting from the 11th

22     that did not happen actually then took place the next day on the 12th of

23     July.  And you told us how, after the meeting, you tried to return to

24     Bijeljina but were stopped first at Vlasenica and at a check-point in

25     Milici.

Page 15183

 1             You told us in your answer that you personally appealed to the

 2     brigade commander to let you pass, and it's just a technical matter, but

 3     I don't think the transcript reflected which brigade commander you had

 4     this contact with - can you just clarify that for the record, please - on

 5     the 12th of July, as you were held up in Milici.

 6        A.   I addressed the commander of the Milici Brigade.  That was what

 7     the brigade was called.  I don't know what his name was because I had

 8     never met him before and to this day, I don't know what his name was.

 9     And he was the one who allowed us to pass.

10        Q.   And you then told us the very next day, the 13th of July, your

11     corps security chief, Colonel Todorovic, told you that General Tolimir

12     had told him to expect about 1300 prisoners.

13             My first question is:  Do you recall roughly how many Muslim

14     prisoners, at that point, on the 13th of July, were at the Batkovic

15     collection centre?

16        A.   There were between 40 and 50.  I don't know the exact number.

17     They were in one hangar in Batkovic.  But the emphasises was not on the

18     numbers, but, rather, that another hangar can -- should be made available

19     so that such a big number of prisoners could be received because this

20     hangar could receive only -- could receive up to 800 or even more people

21     and it only had 40 to 60.  So, if need be, it could accommodate much more

22     people.

23        Q.   And putting aside, sir, for the moment, the issue of logistics of

24     preparing Batkovic for receiving that many prisoners, what did this news

25     mean to you in your role as president of the Eastern Bosnia Corps

Page 15184

 1     Exchange Commission; and what did it mean for the parents, the brothers

 2     and sisters of those Serb prisoners that we've been talking about?

 3        A.   We awaited impatiently this arrival.  I was aware that I was

 4     resolving a problem that was difficult to resolve, and that is the

 5     exchange of prisoners of war.  I also know that the 1st Krajina Corps

 6     would be able, this time, to achieve exchange, both with Tuzla and

 7     Zenica.  Therefore, the parents and myself, as the president of the

 8     commission, and other members of the commission, worked on this.  That

 9     was the goal of our work, to save those we could, to exchange those who

10     were alive, to exchange the bodies of those who had been killed.  So that

11     it was a great relief to be able to count on the POWs that we would be

12     able to exchange.

13        Q.   You further told us that, I believe, two to three days passed,

14     and when the prisoners didn't arrive, had you a conversation with a

15     Drina Corps officer whose first name you remember was Slavko.  And he

16     urged you to try to get something done or -- I think you said something

17     to the effect of "or nothing would happen."

18             Can you tell the Trial Chamber, because I think that you said

19     that this was stated in some kind of code so that the other side couldn't

20     understand, what did you take this statement by this Slavko from the

21     Drina Corps to mean?

22        A.   It was an open-line.  It wasn't military line, but a city line,

23     and it was not to be expected that he would tell me that on such a line.

24     It was sufficient for me to receive this warning, to see what I needed to

25     do in order to get a number of POWs, not necessarily as many as I needed,

Page 15185

 1     but the more the better.  That was always the principle.  For me, the

 2     goal was for them to be allowed to leave and for those others to leave as

 3     well, because the war was at an end.

 4             That was what it meant.  It meant I did not expect why he didn't

 5     tell me, but I could discern that something bad was happening and for the

 6     following reason:  Because the relations in the area were very strained

 7     because earlier on, from the territory of the protected enclave of

 8     Srebrenica, the forces of Naser Oric infiltrated and committed a series

 9     of crimes and torched a series of villages in this area.  Therefore, I

10     was thinking along the following lines:  What are these people who

11     remained without their houses, without their families?  They must be

12     ready to do all kinds of bad things.  But I did not expect that at any

13     point what did happened would happen, but I thought that something bad

14     might happen.  And then as time went by, it turned out that many bad

15     things did happen, indeed.

16        Q.   Sir, I want to show you a number of documents and ask you some

17     questions about them.

18             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I note that the first document I

19     would like to show Mr. Mitrovic was not included on our 65 ter list of

20     exhibits.  It's a document that we came across in preparing for

21     Mr. Mitrovic's testimony.  It is part of the Drina Corps collection that

22     you've heard a lot about.  We notified the Defence of it on our 65 ter

23     list.  I haven't had a chance to consult with the Defence as to their

24     position on this document, but it is something that has, again, as I

25     mentioned, been disclosed as part of the Drina Corps collection, and I

Page 15186

 1     would like to use it with Mr. Mitrovic.  And --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please be so kind to indicate which

 3     document are you referring to?

 4             MR. THAYER:  Yes, it's 65 ter 7423.  And if there is no

 5     objection, I would move to add it to the 65 ter list of exhibits.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is from the government of the

 7     Republika Srpska State Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War

 8     and information memo.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, do you have any objection to add this document to

10     the 65 ter exhibit list?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

12     no objections.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Since there is no objection, leave is granted to

14     add it to the 65 ter exhibit list.

15             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And may we show 7423,

16     please, to the witness.

17        Q.   And, sir, do you see a document on your screen?  It may be rather

18     hard to read.  I have the original here.  I'm not sure if it is going to

19     be much easier to read.  But with the Court Officer's assistance, I can

20     give it to you so you at least have a choice.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  It should be given to the witness.

22             MR. THAYER:  If we scroll down in the original.  Oh, I'm sorry,

23     we can see it there in the original as it is.  And if we go to the --

24     sorry.  If you just return it to the state it was.  I missed what I was

25     looking for.  It was right there in front of us.  Thank you.  And if we

Page 15187

 1     go to page 2 of the English.

 2        Q.   And, sir, please take your time and read the document to

 3     yourself.

 4             We can see at the bottom that it's dated the 7th of July, 1995.

 5     And it is type-signed by Captain First Class Dragan Bulajic on behalf of

 6     the State Commission for Exchange of Prisoners of War.

 7             MR. THAYER:  And if we could go back to the first page in

 8     English.

 9        Q.   And, sir, when you've acquainted yourself with the document,

10     please just let us know and I'll continue your examination.

11        A.   I have read it, so please go ahead.

12        Q.   Sir, again, we can see that this is a document sent from the RS,

13     the Republika Srpska, State Commission for Exchange of POWs, type-signed

14     by Mr. Bulajic.  And the subject is a -- is: "Meeting with Muslim and

15     Croatian," and it is garbled in our version, and it refers to a meeting

16     planned for the 11th of July, 1995, in Kiseljak.  And we can see that

17     it's been sent to the POW Exchange Commissions for a number of corps,

18     including the Eastern Bosnia Corps.

19             My question to you, sir, is simply: How does this document

20     correspond or not correspond to the meeting on the 11th of July that you

21     told us about earlier in your testimony?

22        A.   That was the meeting as mentioned in the dispatch, the one

23     scheduled for the 11th.

24             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender

25     65 ter 7423.

Page 15188

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, can you tell me -- no, thank you.  I got it.

 2             Thank you.  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 7423 shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit P2271.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take the opportunity to mention that the

 6     Registry will circulate a memo with the correction of the wrong number

 7     given to one document.  This problem was raised by Mr. Gajic at the

 8     beginning of today's hearing.  The document will be P2270 instead of the

 9     previous number.  But it will be -- will contain -- will be contained in

10     the memorandum.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  With your leave, Your Honour, just to mention

12     that Exhibit P2270 shall be assigned to the 65 ter document 2240.  Thank

13     you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

15             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Mr. Mitrovic, let's look at another document.

17             MR. THAYER:  If we may have 65 ter 3978 on e-court.

18        Q.   Sir, I think you'll find this a little bit more legible than the

19     last.  But if you'd like the original, I have it here.  So please just

20     let us know if you need to look at the original.

21             MR. THAYER:  And if we could scroll down in the B/C/S, please.

22     Thank you.

23        Q.   And, sir, when you're done reading the first page - and please

24     take your time - just let us know when you're ready to go to the second

25     page of the document.

Page 15189

 1             MR. THAYER:  And can we scroll down in the English, please, just

 2     to catch the bottom of the document in English.

 3        Q.   And, again, whenever you're ready, sir.

 4        A.   I read it.  Go ahead.

 5             I've read it.

 6        Q.   Okay.  If we could back to the first page in both the B/C/S and

 7     the English.  What we have here, for the record, is a telegram

 8     type-signed by General Tolimir.  And it's the 20th of January, 1995.  And

 9     the heading is:  "Prisoner exchange, authorisation."

10             We can see that in the first line General Tolimir writes that we

11     authorise the POW commissions from the Drina Corps and the

12     Eastern Bosnian Corps to establish contact with the Muslim Corps,

13     prisoner exchange representatives.

14             And in the second paragraph, General Tolimir refers to some VRS

15     soldiers who were captured at Lisace.  Are those the same Lisace

16     prisoners about whom you spoke about earlier, Mr. Mitrovic?

17        A.   Yes, they are.

18        Q.   And I won't read into the record at length from the telegram.

19     But General Tolimir says that:

20             "The Eastern Bosnia Corps Commission will prepare and offer a

21     list of Muslims that we plan to exchange for the Lisace prisoners."

22             And he says that:

23             "The number of prisoners on the list must not exceed the number

24     of persons they are asking for, including the persons being asked for by

25     the Eastern Bosnia Corps Commission."

Page 15190

 1             If we go to the second page in English, General Tolimir

 2     specifically says in this telegram:

 3             "During the negotiations, do not show any interest in Lisace

 4     prisoners.  On the contrary.  In an opportune moment, misinform them that

 5     Lisace fighters are not an exchange priority."

 6             And then in the following paragraph he says that:

 7             "By means of misinformation, we intend to make the Muslims attach

 8     little significance to the Lisace prisoners, thus ensuring their swift

 9     and favourable exchange."

10             Sir, putting the merits and substance of General Tolimir's words

11     here to the side, can you tell the Trial Chamber, in your experience,

12     what role did the VRS Main Staff and General Tolimir and the intelligence

13     and security sector, or the -- or the security administration play in

14     organising, arranging, and executing these prisoner exchanges?

15        A.   Their role, for the most part, was to give or deny their

16     approval.  The commissions actually initiated proposals.  As I said

17     yesterday, I was under an obligation, for example, to prepare a list of

18     what we want from the other side and what we have to offer.  We then had

19     to acquaint the corps commander and, upon this -- upon his approval, we

20     were to dispatch that information to the security administration of the

21     Main Staff for their approval.  They never failed to approve it, and

22     occasionally they also provided us with some suggestions.

23             If what we sent was unclear, they requested clarification.  I

24     mentioned that yesterday.  We always had several different drafts that we

25     could table during a meeting so that we would secure at least some kind

Page 15191

 1     of exchange, if not in totality, then at least partially.  There were

 2     also some instructions such as co-ordinating the work of the commission

 3     in a general area, and that was their role.  Without all the approvals as

 4     specified, the commission president and the Commission for Exchange, as a

 5     whole, could not negotiate.  That was the route.  First, the chief of

 6     security had to be informed when I was president, and before, it was all

 7     the commander who was informed directly, and then he informed the

 8     Main Staff by way of dispatch.  The state commission was also informed.

 9     The previous president sent his proposals to the state commission, but I

10     stopped that practice, and they would be informed from the Main Staff.

11     That's what Bulajic told me.

12        Q.   And, sir, this telegram that we're looking at, is this the type

13     of communication that you would receive from the Main Staff during the

14     course of your duties; or is this unusual in any way?

15        A.   I have to say the following:  What we can see on this piece of

16     paper does not necessarily reflect what went on in the field.  We had no

17     need to overestimate or underestimate the importance of the Lisace

18     people.  They were well aware what they had.  It was a painful spot,

19     because the most people, up to that point, were killed at that operation.

20             I simply said that I wanted the people from Lisace.  I did not

21     try to place too little or too much stress on the importance of those

22     prisoners for us.  We can see from all this -- for example, this Causevic

23     person, or the brothers, it seems that there is a mention of them being

24     in Vlasenica.  I'm not sure.

25             In any case, the East Bosnia Corps Commission could not implement

Page 15192

 1     any exchange for the needs of the Drina Corps.  The relationship was so

 2     poor that when the Tuzla Commission met with the Drina Corps Commission,

 3     and most of their commission were people from Zvornik, such meetings

 4     lasted less than five minutes.  They would start arguing immediately and

 5     go their own ways.  There were never any results.  However, when we set

 6     up a meeting, the Drina Corps representatives would arrive.  And it

 7     always ended up in arguments and fights, and it was impossible for us to

 8     do anything because they were on such bad terms.  We couldn't negotiate

 9     for them.

10             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender

11     65 ter 3978.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 3978 shall be assigned

14     Exhibit P2272.  Thank you.

15             MR. THAYER:  Let's look at another document.  This is

16     65 ter 5688, and I'm afraid this one may also be a little bit light on

17     the screen.

18        Q.   So I do have the original for you, sir, to look at.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the Court Usher.

20             MR. THAYER:  With the assistance of the Court Officer.  Thank you

21     very much.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you able to read this document

24     from the record?  Or would you prefer to receive a hard copy as well?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have a hard copy.

Page 15193

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I see your assistant is assisting you with a hard

 2     copy.  Thank you for that, Mr. Gajic.

 3             If we could go to the second page in English, and stay with the

 4     B/C/S where we are, I think.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I think we -- there was a little bit

 6     missing on the bottom of the first page.  I don't know if you were able

 7     to pick it up on your version or not.  I know when I was looking at

 8     e-court, it hadn't displayed the entire document in English.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just now the entire document.

10             MR. THAYER:  Oh, indeed, it did catch it, Mr. President.  I

11     apologise.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Then we should go to the second page.

13     Thank you.

14             Mr. Thayer, you should switch off your microphone when you have

15     an internal discussion with your colleague.

16             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             Mr. President, there is a third page to the document, if the

18     Chamber has had an opportunity to review this second page.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we are now on the second page in B/C/S as

20     well.

21             MR. THAYER:

22        Q.   Sir, I see you've had an opportunity to review this document.

23     And we can see on this last page that it was authored by Colonel Beara.

24             MR. THAYER:  If we could back to the first page of the document,

25     please.

Page 15194

 1             For the record, it's a telegram from Colonel Beara, dated the

 2     11th of May, 1995.  And it's addressed to various corps security

 3     departments, as well as to the POW Exchange Commissions of various corps,

 4     including the Eastern Bosnia Corps.

 5             And we can see in the first paragraph of Colonel Beara's telegram

 6     that he refers to a meeting of the State Commission for POW Exchange

 7     which was attended by various representatives of the corps commissions,

 8     with the Muslim Commission, held at the airport in Sarajevo on

 9     5 May 1995.

10             And if we can just go to the second page in English.  Stay on

11     this page in the original.

12             He refers to VRS soldiers being held at Vijenac.

13        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you know anything about

14     the prisoners who were detained in or at Vijenac?  Which VRS corps were

15     those prisoners a member of, where Vijenac is, in which corps, if you

16     know?  And if you don't know anything about what he is referring to when

17     he refers to Vijenac prisoners, please say so as well and I will move on.

18        A.   I think those were the Serb soldiers captured at Vijenac, which

19     is at Mounted Ozren.  They were from the 1st Krajina Corps.

20             They weren't held there.  It was in the area of responsibility of

21     the Tuzla Corps.  Vijenac is the name of the positions those soldiers had

22     been at when they were captured.

23        Q.   And so that would be in the same way that you referred to the

24     Lisace prisoners who were captured at Lisace as the Lisace prisoners.

25     The -- Colonel Beara is referring to the Vijenac prisoners as those

Page 15195

 1     prisoners who were captured at the Vijenac location.  Is that fair to

 2     say?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Okay.  He refers to a meeting at the Sarajevo airport on

 5     5 May 1995.  And do you recall whether you attended that meeting?  I know

 6     you attended a lot of them, but does this particular meeting ring any

 7     bells for you?  And, if not, again, I'll move on with my questions, if

 8     you have no specific recollection of this meeting.

 9        A.   Save for the meeting in June, I attended two meetings at the

10     airport.  I don't know whether this may have been the first or the

11     second.  I think it was the first.

12             We discussed all the issues we had in the presence of the

13     president and representatives of the state commissions and the

14     commissions of the corps.  If this is indeed the meeting have I in mind,

15     nothing was agreed at it.  It lasted for three or four hours, and nothing

16     became of it, in terms of exchanges.

17             Following which, Bulajic and Masovic had their own private

18     conversation discussing which groups to exchange.  First they had these

19     arguments at the table and then they talked to each other.  Nothing was

20     achieved, and another meeting was held.  Perhaps you have a dispatch

21     referring to it.  When we analysed things in detail, including the

22     previous exchanges, meetings were -- minutes were held --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Minutes were kept.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I asked to see everything that

25     was done as part of the various exchanges, such as the East Bosnia Corps

Page 15196

 1     Commission.  During such exchanges, there was no participation of the

 2     state commissions, and I refused to sign it.  Their member refused to

 3     sign it as well, and we wanted to have a clear distinction between who

 4     did what.  Whenever the state commission took part, it had to be clearly

 5     stipulated as opposed to any other exchanges.  All these matters were

 6     canvassed at the second meeting.  We carried out a detailed analysis and

 7     when Masovic offered to me -- well, he asked me, Does this name mean

 8     anything to you?  And I told him, I think it is a fighter of mine.  And

 9     then he said, Well, let's have him exchanged.  I asked him, How?  And

10     then he said, Well, I'll see to it with Bulajic.  He will give us

11     something and we'll give him to you.

12             It couldn't be.  We had to have an approval of all the

13     institutions and families, otherwise it is a dirty game.  In the end,

14     that person was exchanged, but it cost the families 28.000 German marks.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let me just ask you one further question before we break

16     for our first break.

17             MR. THAYER:  If we could go to page 3 of the English.

18        Q.   And this will be the second page of the original.  The last page

19     in -- in your version, Mr. Mitrovic.

20             Colonel Beara refers here, if we look at the second-to-the last

21     paragraph, he says:

22             "The Eastern Bosnia Corps Commission for POW exchange should work

23     on creating conditions for the exchange of detainees from Stolice and

24     Lisace, in combination with a number of civilians the Muslims are asking

25     for and whom we have put on trial."

Page 15197

 1             The reference here to Stolice, can you tell the Trial Chamber

 2     what Colonel Beara is referring to?  Detainees from Stolice.

 3        A.   It's probably the group I mentioned that had been captured at

 4     Duge Njive.  It was another area like Lisace, except that this one was

 5     called Stolice.  And there was this third location, Jablanica, I think.

 6     These are all locations or positions held by the Serb forces when they

 7     were captured by the Muslim side.

 8        Q.   And is that in the area of Mount Majevica, sir?

 9        A.   It's all at Mount Majevica, yes.

10        Q.   And so would these prisoners be among the 101 that you referred

11     to earlier in the your testimony?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender

15     65 ter 5688.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as an exhibit.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 5688 shall be

18     assigned Exhibit P2273.  Thank you.

19             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I note we're a minute beyond the

20     break.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, we must have our first break of this

22     afternoon now, and we will resume quarter past 4.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.  Please continue.  And bear in

Page 15198

 1     mind the time you have spent with this witness, around two and a half

 2     hours.

 3             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think I should come in

 4     at or under our estimate.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I see the transcript is not working, at least in

 6     e-court.  I don't see anything.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, you have the same problem?

 9             MR. GAJIC:  Yes, Mr. President, I've got the same problem.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's stopped with the words recess taken at 3.00,

11     nothing more is recorded.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, is your system working?

14             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's working now.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So with the help and the assistance of the

16     Registrar, we managed to get back into the transcript.  We had problems

17     with the three screens of the Judges.  And I heard from Mr. Gajic

18     everything is working now.

19             Mr. Thayer, please carry on.

20             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             May we see 65 ter 4025, please.

22        Q.   Sir, we have a one-page telegram here dated 4th of June, 1995.  I

23     again have the original, if it is easier for you to read.  Please let us

24     know if what's on your screen isn't legible enough for you.  We can

25     furnish you with the original.

Page 15199

 1        A.   It's better in hard copy.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, with the assistance of the Court Usher, a

 3     hard copy should be given to the witness.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, can you read it on the screen, the B/C/S version?

 5             You are nodding.  Thank you very much.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I can.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 8             MR. THAYER:

 9        Q.   Sir, when you've had an opportunity to review this telegram,

10     please let us know.

11             MR. THAYER:  It's two pages in the English, so we'll need to go

12     to page 2 in a couple moments in the English.

13        Q.   Okay.  I see you've had a chance to read it.

14             For the record, again, it's a telegram, and it's type-signed from

15     General Tolimir, dated the 4th of June, 1995.  It's addressed to the,

16     among other entities, the commissions for POW exchanges, including your

17     commission, the Eastern Bosnia Corps Exchange Commission.  And in it,

18     General Tolimir writes that the commander of the VRS Main Staff and his

19     staff maintain the positions presented in this telegram, and that:

20             "We believe it is necessary to insist on observing the

21     all-for-all principle."

22             Can you tell the Trial Chamber, if you recall, Mr. Mitrovic, what

23     this telegram is about?  What is General Tolimir referring to here?

24        A.   The dispatch talks about the need to insist in the negotiations

25     on the all-for-all principle.  That means that we should release all

Page 15200

 1     imprisoned persons from all Serbian prisons in exchange for everyone who

 2     is imprisoned in Muslim prisons; that is to say, prisons of the

 3     Federation army.  That never happened.  It could not happen because

 4     everyone had its own problems.  Each corps had its problems.  Some had

 5     prisoners, others didn't, or they had a few.  So that never until the

 6     expiry of my mandate, the all-for-all exchange never happened at the

 7     level of the state.

 8        Q.   Okay.  We'll take a little bit more about some of those issues in

 9     a little while.

10             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution will tender

11     65 ter 4025.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be admitted into evidence.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 4025 shall be assigned

14     Exhibit P2274.  Thank you.

15             MR. THAYER:  May we have 65 -- I beg your pardon.  P02250,

16     please.  I'm handing the original to the Court Usher.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And she may give it to the witness.

18             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             MR. THAYER:

21        Q.   Sir, this is the last telegram I'll be showing you during my

22     examination-in-chief.  It's -- I know it is two solid pages.  Please take

23     your time and acquaint yourself with the contents.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, it seems to be a lengthy document.

25     Perhaps you can point out for the witness, and for the others present

Page 15201

 1     here, to which part you specifically will refer.

 2             MR. THAYER:  I can do that, Mr. President.  I'll just take him

 3     through the document.

 4        Q.   Sir, let's move through the document together.

 5             We can see, for the record, that it is a telegram emanating from

 6     the Main Staff of the VRS intelligence and security sector, and its date

 7     is 3 September 1995.  And it's addressed to the commanders and

 8     intelligence and security departments of several corps, including your

 9     corps, the Eastern Bosnia Corps.  The heading is: "Exchange of prisoners,

10     report."

11             We can see in the first paragraph that General Tolimir, who

12     authored this telegram, we can see at the last page, it's his typed

13     signature.

14             In the first paragraph, General Tolimir writes about the

15     commanders of the 1st Krajina Corps and Eastern Bosnia Corps contacting

16     the commander of the General Staff -  that would be General Mladic - and

17     informed him of the protests of the families of VRS members captured at

18     Vijenac and Lisace and their requests to make it a priority to exchange

19     the persons captured at these two localities.

20             And in this telegram, General Tolimir describes what the

21     Eastern Bosnia Corps commander - I think we'll all agree that would be

22     General Novica Simic - told General Mladic that the families of the

23     Lisace prisoners were demanding that only those prisoners be exchanged

24     for the captured Muslims at Batkovic.

25             MR. THAYER:  And if we go to the next page in English, the top of

Page 15202

 1     the paragraph.

 2        Q.   And this is still on the first page of your version, sir.

 3     General Tolimir writes:

 4             "In addition, the families of the persons captured from Vijenac

 5     want the exchange to proceed on the basis of the all-for-all principle

 6     and to release around 150 captured Muslims from the Batkovic collection

 7     centre for the captured VRS soldiers from Lisace."

 8             Now, let's jump down a couple of paragraphs.  General Tolimir

 9     writes:

10             "In addition, through the state commission for the exchange of

11     prisoners of war, the VRS Main Staff insisted on an all-for-all exchange,

12     since the number of captured Muslims in our prison [sic] is smaller than

13     the number of captured VRS members in Muslim prisons."

14             And, sir, just to make sure we're literally on the same page,

15     it's the first page of your document, the third paragraph.  Do you see

16     where I'm reading from, Mr. Mitrovic?

17        A.   Yes, yes, I have read it already.

18        Q.   Okay.  General Tolimir continues:

19             "However, the Muslim side is blocking all exchanges on the basis

20     of both principles, making it conditional that a larger number of Muslims

21     from the area of Srebrenica and Zepa be exchanged than the number of

22     Muslims we have in our prisons."

23             Now, we just saw that June document, that 4 June document from

24     General Tolimir to the various corps POW commissions, telling you to

25     observe the all-for-all principle.  And here we see that the Main Staff

Page 15203

 1     is insisting on an all-for-all exchange here.

 2             Can you tell the Trial Chamber what General Tolimir is referring

 3     to here, particularly when he is referring to:

 4             "... the Muslim side blocking all exchanges on the basis of both

 5     principles, making it conditional that a larger number of Muslims from

 6     the area of Srebrenica and Zepa be exchanged than the number of Muslims

 7     we have in our prisons"?

 8             Can you explain that a little bit, please, to the Trial Chamber,

 9     what your understanding of this is?

10        A.   From the very beginning of combat operations, an agreement was

11     reached in Geneva, I think, between the Serbian and the Muslim side.  I

12     think that Radovan Karadzic, the president, attended this meeting, and so

13     did Alija Izetbegovic and Tudjman.  As far as I remember, it was then

14     agreed to carry out an all-for-all exchange with the exception of those

15     who had been criminally prosecuted.  The exchange did not occur because

16     there was a deception about it.  All Serbs who were imprisoned by Croats

17     and Muslims were criminally prosecuted and the Serbs did not criminally

18     prosecute the Muslims and the Croats, so they were supposed to release

19     everyone and not to receive anyone.  That was why the all-for-all

20     exchange never really occurred; whichever side insisted on it.  We were

21     the side that more often insisted, but, at the state level, it never

22     happened.

23             Sometimes corps would carry out exchanges through negotiations

24     with the other side.

25        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's -- excuse me.  Let's look at a couple of other

Page 15204

 1     paragraphs, and we'll follow up on that a little bit, Mr. Mitrovic.

 2             MR. THAYER:  If we could go to page 3 in the English.

 3        Q.   And this is the last paragraph on your first page, sir.

 4             General Tolimir writes that, "The corps commissions" -- again,

 5     it's the bottom paragraph on the first page of your original:

 6              "The corps commissions are not objectively informing the

 7     families of the captured soldiers and trying to individually arrange

 8     exchanges with the Muslim side, which is not reciprocal, and it is to our

 9     detriment in circumstances where we have a smaller number of prisoners.

10     This is particularly indicative when this is also requested by the corps

11     commands who know all the relevant facts, particularly when the principle

12     every command should strive for has not been observed, to capture as many

13     enemy soldiers as is the number of our members captured by the enemy."

14             Let me draw your attention to one final paragraph and then I'll

15     put my question to you, Mr. Mitrovic.

16             If we turn to page 2 of your original version, and I'm referring

17     to the third paragraph in your version.  This is page 4 of the English,

18     please.  If we look at the second paragraph in English, and again, this

19     is the third paragraph in your version.  General Tolimir writes:

20             "The exchange commission chairmen must view the exchange proposal

21     integrally, as does the Main Staff of the VRS, since, so far, the

22     Main Staff has made the necessary number of prisoners available for the

23     corps commissions in circumstances where they did not have a sufficient

24     number of captured enemy soldiers to exchange for all the captured

25     members of their corps.  Security organs and exchange commission chairmen

Page 15205

 1     must also avoid using parents' bitterness because it is not possible to

 2     exchange prisoners who have been in prison for quite some time,

 3     particularly because the Main Staff of the VRS is not responsible for

 4     this situation; rather, it is the result of the small number of enemy

 5     soldiers captured by our units."

 6             Were you able to follow that paragraph in your version, sir, that

 7     I just read?  Okay.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, can you give the Trial Chamber an approximate number, if you

10     can remember, of how many Serb soldiers, throughout -- or from the

11     various VRS corps were being held by the opposing side in July of 1995?

12     Can you give us a rough number of how many Serb prisoners of war there

13     were?  Not just from your corps, but if you can recall approximately from

14     the other corps.

15        A.   I never knew that, so I cannot recall, because I never had a

16     chance on any basis to receive the number of prisoners who had been taken

17     from any of the other corps.  I only know the number of those who had

18     been captured and who were soldiers of our Eastern Bosnia Corps.

19             At the meetings of the state commission, a total number was never

20     mentioned, so I couldn't remember what the total number was.  That was

21     never provided, and I was not aware of the total number.

22        Q.   Now, General Tolimir writes here in this -- on page 4 in that

23     paragraph that:

24             "The VRS Main Staff has made the necessary number of prisoners

25     available for the corps commissions in circumstances where they did not

Page 15206

 1     have a sufficient number of captured enemy soldiers to exchange for all

 2     the captured members of their corps."

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is page 4 of --

 4             MR. THAYER:  Of the English.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- the English?

 6             MR. THAYER:  And, again, this is page 2 of the B/C/S.

 7             Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, just for the record.

 9             MR. THAYER:

10        Q.   Was that your understanding of the situation at this time, in

11     September of 1995, sir?

12        A.   No.  Previously, when I was not the commission president, because

13     a dispatch was shown to me last time I was here, some kind of caution on

14     the conduct of the corps.  It seems that from Batkovic they were taking

15     people to be exchanged, whoever they wanted to.  Later on, however, they

16     had no one to take, so the people who had been left, some 50 of them at

17     Batkovic, were not of any interest to the other side.  And there was no

18     hindrance for any corps to take them for an exchange.

19             There's a mention made of civilian exchanges.  It all was

20     supposed to bear fruit, at least on our side, but it was probably the

21     Federation authorities who prevented it.  The Tuzla canton commission had

22     a framework arrangement with us, and there were some able-bodied men

23     in -- who were Muslim in Bijeljina.  I provided them with such figures,

24     expecting that there would be an exchange.  However, it was not possible.

25     In the dispatch it was also mentioned that there should be a one-for-one

Page 15207

 1     exchange which was unrealistic because these people were able bodied but

 2     they were not POWs.

 3        Q.   Now, again, in this paragraph, General Tolimir tells the security

 4     organs and exchange commission chairmen that they must avoid using the

 5     parents' bitterness.  And when he says that "the VRS Main Staff is not

 6     responsible for this situation," and that it is "...rather, the result of

 7     the small number of enemy soldiers captured by our units," how does that

 8     square with your understanding of the situation in September of 1995?

 9        A.   This probably refers to the previous period, not only the

10     situation as was in September.  The municipal president and members of

11     the committee visited General Tolimir, asking for help.  They also asked

12     for help from the state commission and were told to go to see Karadzic

13     because the VRS did not have sufficient numbers of prisoners to make them

14     available to us.  Nobody wanted to see the parents dissatisfied.  We had

15     to swallow many a thing that others may not necessarily be aware of.  The

16     army placed people in different facilities, and those interested usually

17     came to see me.  If they wanted to see somebody from the army, the

18     general would usually send me when they went to see the municipal

19     president in Bijeljina in order to explain why such an exchange could not

20     occur.

21             There is another thing that the general may not be aware of.

22     When, upon our insistence [Realtime transcript read in error

23     "assistance"], they were transferred to Batkovic, then the 1st Krajina

24     Corps asked for everyone to be transferred to Banja Luka or to Kotorsko,

25     near Doboj to the prison there, so that they could have a comprehensive

Page 15208

 1     exchange.  The commander of the 1st Krajina Corps did not want to give up

 2     from that request, and I prepared the parents for that.  I arranged that

 3     the road to Batkovic should be blocked should buses arrive to take those

 4     captured to Banja Luka.  I arranged that tractors be placed on the road.

 5     I was fully ready to go ahead with that and I don't think anybody would

 6     have approved of that, at least not in formal terms.  But no one

 7     contradicted it either.  The 1st Krajina Corps Commission did not get

 8     involved to have those prisoners exchanged, and there was an opportunity

 9     to secure sufficient numbers of prisoners in this period of time for an

10     exchange.

11             It did not occur, however, but we did provide some 40 prisoners

12     from the area of Srebrenica, and they left.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Page 39, line 5, upon our

14     insistence.

15             MR. THAYER:

16        Q.   And by this time, in early September - this document is dated the

17     3rd of September, 1995 - approximately how many Muslim prisoners actually

18     arrived at the Batkovic camp, if you recall?

19        A.   I think 168.  That's what I recall.

20        Q.   Now, you've already told us to today that General Tolimir had

21     told Colonel Todorovic to expect 1300 prisoners who never arrived to

22     Batkovic.  You said that you believed that bad things had happened to

23     them.

24             Did you ever learn, Mr. Mitrovic, that negotiations at a high

25     level between the Serb and Muslim sides for the exchange of prisoners, in

Page 15209

 1     particular, the prisoners -- or, in particular, with respect to men from

 2     Zepa, failed, owing to the VRS's inability to account for the prisoners

 3     they had taken following the fall of Srebrenica?

 4        A.   When it comes to Zepa, we didn't receive any such prisoners.

 5             As for these negotiations at a state level, I'm not familiar with

 6     those.

 7        Q.   Now, just a few more questions, sir.

 8             Again, referring to the 1300 prisoners who never arrived at

 9     Batkovic.  The Trial Chamber has heard a lot of testimony about several

10     thousand Muslim men and boys being executed in the Zvornik and

11     Bratunac Brigades' area of responsibility and buried there, following the

12     fall of Srebrenica.  And you've already referred to these 1300 prisoners

13     who never arrived, that you thought something bad had happened to.

14             As president of the Eastern Bosnia Corps Exchange Commission, how

15     would it have affected your job had the Muslim side and the ICRC found

16     out the truth about what happened to those thousands of men and boys who

17     had been taken prisoner and then later executed, following the fall of

18     Srebrenica?

19        A.   Concerning those who had been captured and executed, I didn't

20     know about any of that at the time.  I think that the Muslim side had

21     their doubts, so we conducted our negotiations without specific problems

22     because neither I nor the other side knew the truth.  We tried to do what

23     we could.  I have to say, though, that when the first exchange occurred

24     on the 29th of September of 1995, the president of the cantonal

25     commission said, Thanks to you, these people are alive.

Page 15210

 1             I don't know where he gained that impression of his, but the

 2     exchange went ahead, in any case.

 3             The following exchange was going to be an all-for-all exchange,

 4     but we took everyone from Batkovic and, together with the

 5     1st Krajina Corps, following the approval of the Main Staff, we took the

 6     people they had, in order to have an exchange of all those who were

 7     captured with those captured on the other side, specifically the

 8     Tuzla Cantonal Commission and the Zenica Commission.  I think it happened

 9     on the 25th of December, after a round -- several rounds of talks.  It

10     was finally approved and agreed upon, and they were exchanged at the

11     Sockovac river in Gracanica.  Everyone was exchanged for everyone else.

12     All those that the 1st Krajina Corps Commission sought arrived from Tuzla

13     and Zenica.  We also received all those we wanted to have.  Having done

14     that, there were no further demands, no more people to exchange, and the

15     Batkovic centre was closed.

16        Q.   And how would your job in July through December of 1995 have been

17     affected, had the VRS had in its custody, let's just say, 7.000 living

18     Muslim prisoners available to exchange?

19        A.   I would have welcomed that.  Anyone would who is familiar with

20     what a war is and who knows what it is to lose one's dearest and nearest.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it would be useful

23     if Mr. Thayer provided a reference where this figure of 7.000 people who

24     went missing comes from.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

Page 15211

 1             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, honestly, I think that number that I

 2     used of approximately 7.000 people which I believe is consistent with

 3     what we have in the indictment and what we have argued and established

 4     throughout the trial, thus far, is a fair one to put to the witness, and

 5     he has answered the question.

 6             I only have one or two more questions.  And I believe I'm at my

 7     time and --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, we're talking about this objection by

 9     Mr. Tolimir at the moment.

10             Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Thayer gave -- or put to the witness an

11     approximation.  He said:

12             "... had the VRS had in its custody, let's just say, 7.000 living

13     Muslim prisoners available to exchange?"

14             He could have said 5.777 or any other figure.  He received his --

15     the answer he was asking for, and now Mr. Thayer should go ahead.

16             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I will move quickly.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I base my objection, or, rather, it

19     was justified because Mr. Thayer referred to the indictment.  But it

20     wasn't proven.  Therefore, these are assumptions, brush-stroke numbers,

21     as you, yourself, specified.  This is a trial.  I beg him to be more

22     precise.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, no doubt, at the end of this trial,

24     we will find out what could be seen as the truth.  But, at this moment,

25     it was just approximation.

Page 15212

 1             Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Now, the document that we've been looking at, again, is dated

 4     3rd of September, 1995.  The Trial Chamber has heard testimony in this

 5     case that a day after issuing this telegram, where he's blaming the corps

 6     for not taking enough prisoners and telling the POW commissions not to

 7     let the parents' bitterness be a factor, the Trial Chamber heard evidence

 8     that General Tolimir's sector dispatched a security administration

 9     officer late in the night of 4 September, into the early morning hours of

10     5 September, to the Vanekov Mlin prison to take custody of

11     Colonel Avdo Palic, the former commander of the Army of Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina's Rogatica Brigade --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, to avoid an objection by Mr. Tolimir,

14     I would kindly ask you to rephrase your question and not to put a leading

15     question to the witness.  Just ask him about his knowledge about the fate

16     of this person.  I think it is much more helpful for your case than to

17     put -- to put evidence of another witness to this witness.

18             MR. THAYER:  May we see P02182.  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Sir, we can see here a document which is titled: "Receipt."  And

20     it states:

21             "On the exclusion of the detainees on the 5th of September ... at

22     0100 hours for the needs of the ... intelligence sector of the VRS

23     Main Staff ... Avdo Palic ... transferred ... following the order of

24     Dragan Tomic."

25             We can see the various stamps and signatories.  Were you aware,

Page 15213

 1     Colonel, at any time between July and December of 1995, that a brigade

 2     colonel of the opposing forces, the brigade commander, had been

 3     transferred, essentially, in your backyard at this prison.

 4        A.   I was never in Vanekov Mlin, which is across the road from the

 5     barracks.  I never knew of anyone being detained there.  I didn't know

 6     that it used to be a detention unit for our own soldiers, when there was

 7     no room in the detention cell in the barracks.  I was asked about this in

 8     the MUP as well.  They asked me about it when they were looking for this

 9     prisoner and when the government of the RS was interested in finding out

10     the truth.

11             The first time I went there was in 1996, I think, when there were

12     several civilians brought there.  Together with the ICRC, we picked them

13     up and took them to Brcko.  We handed them over without any

14     pre-conditions, although we were promised the bodies of some killed

15     people for them.  But this was all finished by that time.

16             Let me say this as well.  This is nothing to do with Batkovic.

17     The command of the collection centre at Batkovic had no competence in

18     this part.  That is also probably why I was completely ignorant of this

19     case.

20        Q.   And, sir, in your experience as a member of -- and president of

21     this POW exchange commission, what did it mean, if anything, to you or to

22     any side to have in its custody a prisoner of the stature of a brigade

23     commander?  What value, if any, did having such a prisoner have, in terms

24     of potential exchanges?

25        A.   I think it would have been of great importance.  Since there were

Page 15214

 1     conditions put to most of the exchanges, this would have been a very

 2     important one to have a more favourable exchange.  It would have been

 3     expected to receive far more soldiers for this person because he was an

 4     officer.  Unless, of course, the other side also had captured officers,

 5     then officers would be exchanged for officers.

 6        Q.   My last question, sir:  You've got security experience.  You've

 7     served for many years on this exchange commission.  You've had a lot of

 8     experience with exchanges.  Do you know of any reason to divert thousands

 9     of prisoners of war from Batkovic and to house them in little schools and

10     buildings around the Zvornik area?

11        A.   As far as I know, no such people were transferred from Batkovic

12     to different buildings in the area of the municipality of Zvornik, unless

13     it happened in 1992.  But when I arrived in the commission, such things

14     did not happen.

15        Q.   My --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, again, I wanted to

18     ask for a reference, according to which some prisoners were transferred

19     from Batkovic to a number of schools in Zvornik.

20             MR. THAYER:  I can clarify that, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be helpful.

22             MR. THAYER:

23        Q.   My question, in fact, and, again, I apologise for the confusing

24     question.

25             My question was, sir:  Can you think of any reason why thousands

Page 15215

 1     of prisoners who were captured in the Bratunac Brigade and

 2     Zvornik Brigade areas of responsibility, instead of being brought up to

 3     Batkovic, were placed in schools and buildings scattered throughout the

 4     Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility?

 5        A.   I don't know who ordered it, and if anyone ordered such

 6     transfers, or if it was a move that was decided upon by the lower-ranking

 7     units.  Given that my corps took no participation in it, and as the

 8     president of the commission, I was not familiar with those events,

 9     there's nothing to say.  I didn't even know that they were transferred to

10     Zvornik.  I thought that there were a few places where people were

11     captured close to the area of responsibility, but I am unaware of this.

12        Q.   And based on your experience, both as a security officer and as a

13     member of the commission, can you think of any explanation why that would

14     have been done, instead of sending those prisoners up to Batkovic?

15        A.   I don't know why it was done.  In my view, it would have been

16     good or justified to have them sent to Batkovic.  From a dispatch, you

17     could see that the Drina Corps objected as well, that their people were

18     taken by the 1st Krajina Corps and the commission of the Eastern Bosnia

19     Corps, and we had not captured those people.

20             Now what their needs were is something I don't know.  And then

21     there was this order stating that we were to capture people if we wanted

22     to exchange anyone, and then we simply told the Tuzla commission, We

23     don't have enough people.  We have to wait.  And then there was this idea

24     to have it combined with civilians, and, in the end, exchanges took place

25     along different lines.

Page 15216

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, you should come to an end.  You

 2     promised to be shorter than three hours in your examination-in-chief and

 3     now you extended this time already.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, that concludes my examination.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer.

 7             Mr. Mitrovic, now the accused, Mr. Tolimir is conducting his

 8     cross-examination.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I greet

11     everyone present.  May there be peace to this house.  I hope that this

12     day of trial will be completed in accordance with God's will rather than

13     as I wish.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] I wish to greet Mr. Mitrovic, and I wish him a

16     pleasant stay among us.  And I will also ask him to give brief answers to

17     my questions so that I would have sufficient time to ask him all the

18     questions I planned because we have already spent a lot of time.  And

19     also, please start answering the questions only when you see that the

20     cursor on the transcript stops.  I will also try to start asking

21     questions only once you have finished providing your answer.  Thank you.

22             We'll start from the last questions.  You were asked whether the

23     sector sent someone to take over Avdo Palic.  You were asked that on page

24     43, whether, on the 5th of September, a man was sent for this purpose.

25             This is my question:  Were you aware then or later, that is to

Page 15217

 1     say, did you learn from the detention centre warden, or anyone else at,

 2     perhaps, an exchange that you attended, whether this man came to

 3     Vanekov Mlin with a task to take him without leaving any trace, that he

 4     took him away, or did he bring a paper requesting that he be taken from

 5     there, or did he have the authority to take him away?  Were you aware of

 6     that?

 7        A.   Two years ago, when I was called to crime prevention service in

 8     the MUP, when they asked me about this, in connection with the

 9     information about Palic, I was surprised because, until that point, I had

10     not heard the name nor of the man in the military circles.  So that I did

11     not know that he had ever stayed there, which one can hear in the media,

12     that he has been found dead in the area of Zepa.

13        Q.   Can you please speak a bit more slowly.

14        A.   All right.

15        Q.   And be as brief as possible.  Just answer my question.

16             Something was shown to you here, a statement, a confirmation,

17     about taking over Avdo Palic which was signed by guard

18     Veselin Marijanovic.  It was issued and certified by Milan Savic, as the

19     warden, and it says that Pecanac took over Avdo Palic.  Have you seen

20     this certificate earlier; yes or no?  We can see it on the screen again.

21        A.   I have seen the receipt, but I don't know any of the persons who

22     signed it.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And is it customary to take over a detainee from a

24     guard or should it, rather, be one of the administrative or managerial

25     organs, the prison warden or someone like that?  Thank you.

Page 15218

 1        A.   It was always necessary to have the approval of the corps,

 2     whether of the commander or the chief of security, which would be sent to

 3     the commander of the collection centre.  On the basis of that, a detainee

 4     could be taken away.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic.

 6        A.   You're welcome.

 7        Q.   On page 45, line 10, the Prosecutor asked you whether you were

 8     aware of any reasons to remove 1.000 POWs from Batkovic to Zvornik, and

 9     then, later on, it was changed but it was not deleted from the record.

10     So can you please tell us the following:  Did you have information from

11     the Muslims that they requested a certain number of persons from you,

12     from Batkovic, persons whom they listed as missing, and did they ever

13     specify the number of these persons who they were looking for, they or

14     the ICRC?  Thank you.

15        A.   It was clear, at least during the time while I was in the

16     commission, that some people were requested but these were those who had

17     died and this referred to the exchange of dead bodies.

18        Q.   Thank you.  But if a side was looking for someone, was it obliged

19     to tell you directly or through the ICRC who were these persons that they

20     were looking for from the other side?  Were they obliged to submit a list

21     to you?  Thank you.

22        A.   Probably that was supposed to be the way, but we directly made

23     requests to one another and we informed the ICRC, so they were aware of

24     that.

25        Q.   Thank you.  When you worked on that directly, did you then ever

Page 15219

 1     directly receive from the Muslim Commission the information about the

 2     number of missing persons they were looking for, and did you ever receive

 3     a list of such persons?  Thank you.

 4        A.   If you mean the events around Srebrenica, I never received any

 5     list.  And as for the others, it was well-known who they were looking

 6     for, who we had, and what was requested.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D228 is the document we would need

 9     to show now.  Thank you.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   We can see where it says:

12             "Republika Srpska, Ministry of Defence."

13             It was submitted to the Ministry of Justice liaison office with

14     ICTY --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should not be broadcast because it's a

16     confidential document.  I repeat: It should not be broadcast.  It's a

17     confidential document.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then please do not

19     broadcast it.  Just let us see it on the screens so the witness can see

20     it as well.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   You can see that what they received was a memo about the number

23     of persons who were handed over from Batkovici --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please turn to the next

25     page.

Page 15220

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   -- because the list of Muslims who were exchanged from the

 3     Batkovic collection centre was provided.

 4             You're probably familiar with this list, which has a total of 171

 5     persons.  Please explain, with regard to the first person, don't read the

 6     name, but it says that the date of arrival at the Batkovic collection

 7     centre is the 18th of June -- July 1995, and the date of departure is the

 8     10th of July, 1995.  Is it an error or --

 9        A.   Well, it's illogical, so it must be an error.  Because, on the

10     10th of July, as far as I know, no one was brought to Batkovic.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

12             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I think we may be able to agree with

13     the Defence.  And this was gone into in the prior trial.  Just for the

14     Trial Chamber's information, that this date of 10 July 1995 is a

15     transposition and it should actually be 7 October; instead of 10/7, it

16     would be 7/10, and I -- I don't imagine we've got much dispute about

17     that.  If we do, then I stand corrected, but I think this was gone into

18     before and I don't expect there is a dispute.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you aware of that?  We have seen

20     this document before.  I don't recall in detail.  But if you -- most of

21     the entries are from September or October, except the third one, with a

22     date of 24th of July, 1995.

23             Mr. Tolimir.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic.  Is it possible that the person from

Page 15221

 1     number 1 was exchanged in October rather than in July, and that the day

 2     and the month have been transposed when noted here?

 3        A.   According to my estimate, it is only possible that the person was

 4     not exchanged at the time at all but, rather, transferred to Kotorsko

 5     near Doboj, and that the person was only exchanged on the

 6     25th of December, the 24th or the 25th, when there was an all-for-all

 7     exchange.  At least my commission did not have any exchanges on this

 8     date.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic.  Please tell us, when did you exchange

10     the soldiers from Lisace and others that Eastern Bosnia Corps was

11     requesting?  Can you tell us the date and time?

12        A.   The 29th of September, 1995.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Please review the list now, and just have a look at

14     the dates of arrival to Batkovic and departure from it so you would be

15     able to tell me which exchange is which when I ask you that.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please also show page 2 to

17     the witness.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   You're probably familiar with this list, as it was made in

20     co-operation with the detention authorities in Batkovic, and it was

21     available to the commission.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at the

23     following page after number 57.  Thank you.

24             And the next one, please.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 15222

 1        Q.   So you have seen all the dates on which exchanges were carried

 2     out.  The names are listed in alphabetical order.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we please show the last

 4     page.  The last page ends with number 171.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You can also see the note which says the said persons from the

 7     list were registered by the ICRC, and ICRC representatives were present

 8     when they were exchanged.

 9             This is my question for you --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we please see the last page in English.

11     Thank you.

12             Now your question, Mr. Tolimir.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Mitrovic, as ICRC representatives were present, were they

15     able to see how many people were requested and how many were held in

16     prisons because they visited prisons including the collection centre in

17     Batkovic; yes or no?  Thank you.

18        A.   The International Committee of the Red Cross had certain

19     documents at its disposal.  For example, they had a book of missing

20     persons from Srebrenica.  They gave me a copy.  I raised certain

21     objections because there were a number of persons with the same first and

22     last names and all the other personal data, so it was obviously that it

23     was one and the same person.  I told them that it should be checked and

24     then that some of them should be deleted because it was an obvious error

25     in the book.  So, that is to say, they did have the information.

Page 15223

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you still have that book in your files or in the

 2     archives in the commands for which you worked?

 3        A.   No, I don't.  Because I handed over all the documents to

 4     Lieutenant-Colonel Miso Petricevic at the corps.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And do you possibly remember the number of all Muslim

 6     POWs from Srebrenica in the book that was provided to you by the ICRC?

 7     Please make a pause between question and answer.

 8        A.   I think it was around 8.000.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did all the 8.000 people include also the wrong

10     information, the double names and so on?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Were they intentionally registered like that and was there a big

13     number of such cases, or were there just a few that you noticed?  Thank

14     you.

15        A.   Well, there was quite a number of such entries.  I don't know the

16     exact number.  I underlined them in the book.  I showed it to them, and I

17     indicated that there could be more but that I did not have sufficient

18     time to go through it all in detail.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could you perhaps provide a copy of the book when you

20     get back?  Could you find it in the archives and provide it to the

21     Defence while the proceedings are still going on?  That is to say, as

22     soon as possible.  Do you think there is any possibility of that?  Thank

23     you.

24        A.   I have no possibility because I wonder where the archives are.  A

25     unit of the Joint Command of Bosnia and Herzegovina is stationed there

Page 15224

 1     now, so that it is inaccessible.  One could see how many copies the ICRC

 2     have.  I don't know.  I can check with the ICRC in Bijeljina, whether

 3     they perhaps have that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  We would be thankful to you.  Can you tell us what

 5     was the year and the month when that was published?

 6        A.   I think it was from 1996.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

 8             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I just have a question for the witness.

 9             Can you recall the name of the ICRC official with whom you dealt

10     when you are counting the number of people on the lists, the 8.000 you

11     have just talked about?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.  They rotated.  But there

13     were those from the Federation and Bijeljina.  For example,

14     Snjezana Filipkovic [phoen], she was the president of that department.

15     There was a Ms. Melinda -- I can't recall her last name.  She was from

16     Switzerland.  I can't tell you who the person in question was and who was

17     it that I showed it to, noting that the document should be reviewed and

18     checked for inconsistencies.

19             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you for your answer.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have a follow-up question to that matter.

21             If I recall correctly, you said -- yes, this it page 54, line 8:

22             "... I handed over all the documents to

23     Lieutenant-Colonel Miso Petricevic ...," as you are recorded to have

24     said.

25             When did you hand over these documents?

Page 15225

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stayed with the commission until

 2     the 30th of April, 1997, although I no longer had any contacts with the

 3     Federation Commission which had been disbanded.  However, there were a

 4     number of killed in the Krajina theatre of war from our units, and I was

 5     the one who was to provide explanations to the people and comfort them.

 6     I handed over all documentation once I was finally demobilised which was

 7     on the 30th of April, 1997.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Mitrovic, upon your return, when you discussed matters with

12     those who participated with you in all the -- that -- in that whole

13     process; for example, if you asked the interpreters, could you come up

14     with a person's name who gave you the list, and could you tell us who it

15     was who came to Bijeljina?  Would it be possible to send those names back

16     to us, together with the documents you may find in the ICRC office?

17        A.   I don't know.  All I can tell you is that I picked up the book, I

18     underlined the problematic information, and then we no longer discussed

19     it.  I just told them that it should be improved, and that was it.  The

20     book was handed over.  All I can do is to see whether there is a copy of

21     it in the Bijeljina Red Cross office.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether the Muslims and their

23     commissions, be it the central commissions from the Federation or the one

24     from Tuzla, gave -- give you a definitive list of those they were looking

25     for as missing?

Page 15226

 1        A.   If we are discussing the events surrounding Srebrenica, then the

 2     answer is no.  There had been such lists, but, finally, this definitive

 3     list was not handed over to me.  There were questions about individuals,

 4     and then I occasionally went to Batkovic to check, but as a whole, no

 5     list was received concerning such high numbers.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have D176 shown in

 8     e-court.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is a document from the Army of B and H, their 2nd Corps

11     command.  The title is:  "Chronology of events surrounding the

12     break-through by the 28th Division of the ground forces."  They forwarded

13     it to their superior command.  Could we please have page 5 in the English

14     shown to the witness and page 4 in the Serbian version.  Thank you,

15     Aleksandar.

16             Let's see what figures they mention.

17             If we look at the page before you, look at the third

18     paragraph before the mention of Lukavica.  It reads:

19             "The initial groups of refugees from Srebrenica arrived in the

20     area of Kladanj around 9.00 p.m. and, on the 13th of July, during the

21     day, the entire population of Srebrenica, around 22.000 of them, arrived

22     in the general area of Dubrava airport.  Some population arrived via the

23     Baljkovica-Sapna corridor.  A total of 29.336 persons expelled from the

24     enclave were accommodated, according to the lists provided by the

25     municipalities."

Page 15227

 1             Can you see that?

 2        A.   Yes, I can.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.  I don't know if you

 4     misspoke, Mr. Tolimir, or if that is a translation issue.  In this

 5     paragraph, there's a reference to the 12th of July at 2100 hours, not the

 6     13th, as you are recorded as having said.  It's the 12th of July in this

 7     document.

 8             Mr. Thayer.

 9             MR. THAYER:  And, Mr. President, while we're looking at this

10     section, and again I'm just liking at the English translation, but in the

11     transcript General Tolimir was quoted as saying that this

12     paragraph states that:

13             "... the entire population of Srebrenica, around 22.000 of them,

14     arrived in the general area of Dubrave airport."

15             Maybe that is what it says in the original language but that is

16     certainly not appears in the English.  So I would just like some

17     clarification so that we have an accurate transcript before us.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, indeed, in the English translation

19     it says:

20             "The majority of them, some 22.000 to 23.000 ..."

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             Thank you Mr. Thayer.

23             I'm looking at the English translation, and the second line of

24     the second paragraph in the English, I see the 12th of July.  And on that

25     day, 22- to 23.000 people arrived.  If you look at the fifth line of that

Page 15228

 1     paragraph, we have a figure of 29.336, who came via Baljkovica and Sapna.

 2     Baljkovica was the place of break-through.  They specify exactly how many

 3     people arrive, which is 29.336.  In the break down just following this

 4     paragraph, we see further numbers.  Mr. Mitrovic could look at it as

 5     well.  We have the number of people accommodated in the different

 6     municipalities specified, Lukovac, Banovici, Srebrenick, Gracac,

 7     Zivinice, Kladanj, Tuzla, Kalesija and the Camp.

 8             So they provide specific figures.  They mention both the 12th and

 9     the 13th of July, 1995, as the date.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You reminded the witness not to speak too fast.

11     You did it yourself.  And it was very difficult for the court recorder to

12     catch everything you have said, and it was interrupted.

13             Please put a question to the witness and that should be the last

14     one before the break.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Mitrovic, in the paragraph I just quoted, can you also see a

17     figure of 22- to 23.000 inhabitants, and then, toward the end of the

18     paragraph, we have a total of 29.336 because the initial number had been

19     joined by those who arrived via Baljkovica and Sapna.  Can you tell us

20     whether these are different routes that the groups took?

21        A.   I suppose so.  If this information is correct, that is how many

22     people arrived.  They also specified the routes they took.  It would be

23     useful to know exactly how many people lived in that area and compare it

24     with this one so as to determine how are missing.

25        Q.   This it precisely what I was going to look at after the break.

Page 15229

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you so much.  We must have our second break

 2     now, and we will resume quarter past 6.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   As we saw in the paragraph we read out, it is stated that 29.336

 9     inhabitants left.  Then we have the breakdown by municipalities.

10             If we look at the next page of the document, we will see that

11     they also mentioned the number of soldiers who left.  This is page 6 in

12     the Serbian and 8 in the English.  Thank you.

13             Can you see in the eighth paragraph -- actually it begins with:

14     "The 20th of July."

15             It is the fifth paragraph in the English.

16             "On the 20th of July, 1995, a tour was conducted of the

17     facilities that would be housing the division and brigade commands and

18     the billeting of the units began.  By 2000 hours, on the

19     25th of July, 1995, 2.080 troops (soldiers an officers) of the 28th

20     Division of the land forces were lined up; they are now carrying out

21     planned tasks."

22             By bullet points, we see the number of soldiers per brigade.

23             If we add this figure to the previous number, it turns out that

24     there were over 31.000 people involved, almost 31.400, who left

25     Srebrenica.

Page 15230

 1             Also, according to the Muslim sources, there were additional 300

 2     soldiers who left Srebrenica for Zepa, once Srebrenica had been overrun.

 3     If we add this to our total, it brings the number up to over 31.500.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.  Mr. Tolimir, you just mentioned

 5     additional 300 soldiers who left Srebrenica for Zepa.  Where is it

 6     written in this document?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I said that it was

 8     according to the Muslim sources.  It is not in this document.  It is in

 9     document D55, page 35, paragraph 123.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  you should now come to your

11     question.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Mitrovic, can we see from these figures forwarded by the

14     corps command, the 2nd Corps Command, on the basis of information about

15     the 28th Division, how many people left Srebrenica and how many of them

16     were registered as inhabitants and how many as soldiers?

17        A.   Well, we can see from this how many left, provided the

18     information is correct.  Because this is the information of the other

19     side.  I don't know what the number of the population was, though.  This

20     is something I can't see here, so I can't say what the difference is

21     between the two figures.

22        Q.   Thank you.  We will get to that document next.  I just wanted you

23     to see that intentionally incomplete data is provided in this document.

24             Let look at page 7 in English and 5 in the Serbian version, the

25     last paragraph.  We can see there how, in this document too, data is

Page 15231

 1     concealed.

 2             At the bottom of the page it says:

 3             "According to our rough assessment and knowledge, the corridor

 4     was used by a total of" -- and then there is text missing.  It was

 5     intentionally deleted, that figure of how many people used the corridor.

 6             Let's look at the next page, which is page 8 in the English and

 7     6 in the Serbian.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, this is quite difficult to follow.

 9     You are mixing up reference to the document and your own conclusion.

10     Please help us but especially the witness to understand what you are

11     putting to him.  And I would like to know where it is in the English

12     version.

13             Mr. Thayer.

14             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr.  President.  And along the same lines, I'm

15     just trying to find out exactly where this portion is in the B/C/S.  I

16     think I can see where it is in the English, but I'd like to know exactly

17     where in the B/C/S this portion is and whether it is indicated, as

18     General Tolimir is suggesting, that it was deliberately omitted.  I would

19     just like to see where that line is, because I can't follow it in the

20     B/C/S.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, can you help us?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, I can.  Let's look

23     at page 7 in the English, please, and page 5 in the Serbian.  The last

24     paragraph and the last line.

25             It reads:

Page 15232

 1             "According to a rough estimate and our intelligence, a total

 2     number of" -- and now let us move onto the next page, so as not to get

 3     confused.

 4             Where we see that part of the text is missing?  It is deleted,

 5     both at the end of the fifth line and the beginning of the sixth.  It

 6     cannot be a coincidence.  If it were deleted on only one page, it could

 7     be a coincidence.  But we have text missing at the bottom of page 5 and

 8     the top of page 6.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we dealt with this earlier in this

10     trial.  This is your conclusion that there was something left out.  But

11     we heard other evidence that it could be a problem by making copies of

12     the original of the document because of the size of the paper.  If you

13     want to get an answer from the witness, please put a clear question to

14     the question and don't mix it up with your own conclusion and your own

15     assessment.

16             Go ahead, please.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Understood, Mr. President.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Mitrovic, from this text, can you conclude what -- a total

20     number of people who used the corridor by that point?  Can you see that

21     on either of the pages?  Can we use the text to conclude that?  And, if

22     not, why do you think it is?

23        A.   Well, perhaps someone could be able to deduce anything, but my

24     conclusion would be that it was either intentional, as you say, or

25     something is simply missing, referring to a total number of people.

Page 15233

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at the last three lines

 3     of the last page of the document in both versions.  It is page 10 in the

 4     English.  Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We see it in the Serbian and in the English now.  It reads:

 7             "An analysis of the events in the Srebrenica enclave and the

 8     28th Division of the land forces break-through, put together by the

 9     28th Division Command at the request of the 2nd Corps Commander, is

10     entered under number, strictly confidential no 02/1-727/55 of the 24th of

11     July, 1995, in the Corps Command records.  Attachment number 34."

12             My question is this:  Having looked at the document, could we

13     find the data that is missing so that there would be no hard feelings on

14     either side?

15        A.   I don't know if one could conclude that because I did not really

16     study the data which you presented thoroughly, and I was not really

17     familiar with this earlier.

18        Q.   I understand you.  But if a document says that it was based on a

19     specific analysis, should the analysis then include the basic data

20     included into this report, or memo.

21             I'm sorry?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You asked to see the total number of the inhabitants

24     of Srebrenica.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look at D117 to that

Page 15234

 1     purpose.  Thank you.

 2             We can see here two tables showing the total numbers.  It is a

 3     document from the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Srebrenica

 4     municipality, issued by the municipal TO Staff on the 11th of January,

 5     1995: Breakdown - that's the title - of numbers of inhabitants and

 6     households per municipality; local and displaced persons; number of

 7     people who are killed; who are registered at posts; number of civilian

 8     and military casualties where the location and circumstances of death and

 9     location of burial are known, with age and gender breakdown.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So we can see the first column which says:

12             "Population, total, 36.071."

13             That's the total number of inhabitants in the entire Srebrenica

14     enclave in January 1995.

15             My question is this:  Should there have been more or fewer people

16     in July 1995, or would there be an enormous increase of inhabitants.  Can

17     you tell us that?

18        A.   I don't know how many but, of course, between 1991 and 1995 there

19     was some growth in terms of birth-rate but I'm not sure what it was.

20        Q.   This is the 11th of January, 1995.  So whether in five months or

21     six months, between January and July, the birth-rate can be enormously

22     increased?

23        A.   No, it cannot.

24        Q.   And then the population of municipalities is listed.  Local

25     population, Srebrenica municipality, 19.000; Bratunac municipality,

Page 15235

 1     8.000; Vlasenica; Zvornik; Han Pijesak; and Visegrad municipalities;

 2     Rogatica municipality, and so on.

 3             If we see that later on we computed that it was 31.500, it was

 4     just a rough calculation, not including all the data.  And if we were now

 5     to add all those that you exchanged and who figure on your list which we

 6     saw just a while ago, 171 persons, then the number would be increased by

 7     171 persons.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just in order for this exercise to

10     make any real sense and have bearing relevance to the cases before this

11     Trial Chamber, I would like to know from the Defence whether this figure

12     of 31.500 that General Tolimir is using, I presume that is based on the

13     document we saw a moment ago, dated 27th of July.  I would like to know

14     whether it's the Defence's position that that 31.500 figure includes

15     people that were missing and still unaccounted for as of the date.  What

16     is the Defence's position as to that issue?  I think that is a pretty

17     important issue that seems to be absent from this series of questions

18     that are being put to the witness.

19             And I know I can wait until re-direct, but it is awfully

20     complicated for me to undo this question and then reassert a hypothetical

21     that is not my own.  So I just think it would be easier if we can have an

22     idea of what the basis of this number is and what it actually, from the

23     Defence's position, includes.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was waiting for the translation to be finished.

25             Mr. Tolimir stated that this is his own calculation.  We didn't

Page 15236

 1     see any document with this number of 31.500 people.  It was his

 2     calculation and put to the witness.

 3             You may deal with that with the witness.  He was -- this witness

 4     was not able to provide any figure on that.

 5             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             It is not my personal calculation.  It is in the document D176,

 8     on those pages of the document, and I just added up the numbers which are

 9     given over ten pages.  The Prosecution and the Trial Chamber can do that

10     as well, if interested.  I did not imagine the data.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, that is exactly what I just said.

12     It was your calculation because you took a figure and then you added

13     something.  And you told us earlier that you added a different figure

14     from a different document.

15             So I think my summary, that this was your calculation, was

16     correct.

17             Please carry on and put questions to the witness.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Mitrovic, if, in this document issued by the Army of BH which

21     we earlier looked at, D176, includes the number of inhabitants and

22     soldiers who left, and if there is a number in the document we are

23     looking at now, the number of soldiers and inhabitants who were there

24     before the fall of Srebrenica, is it then possible to calculate how many

25     missing persons there are?  Thank you.

Page 15237

 1        A.   It's possible to calculate how many missing persons there are.

 2     However, I would like to say one thing.  I think that we have moved away

 3     from my testimony until now, and that now, just like in the Beara case,

 4     the Prosecution tried to drag me to Podrinje and I reacted, and,

 5     likewise, I have to react now, because I do not know enough about the

 6     situation that I'm requested to answer about at the moment.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic.  I understand you.  However, at the end

 8     of the examination-in-chief, you were asked whether you know what were

 9     the reasons for thousands of POWs to be transferred from Batkovic to

10     Zvornik and so on.  And later on the question was rephrased, as we can

11     see from the record.

12        A.   I then said that I did not know at all that these thousands of

13     prisoners were transferred from Batkovici to Zvornik, and I really do not

14     know that.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I know that you don't know that.  But do you know

16     what was the number of Muslims from Srebrenica that you were asked about,

17     as you were the chairman of the commission in charge of those who were at

18     the collection centre in Batkovici where all prisoners from the zone,

19     which includes Srebrenica, were collected?  Thank you.

20        A.   As for the persons from Srebrenica, we could not even discuss

21     that on -- about exchanges with the Tuzla commission.  The state

22     commission could do that.  We were in charge of partial things that could

23     be done.  We never even received the lists of the number of persons who

24     went missing from Srebrenica, and whatever Tuzla requested, we did.  They

25     denied that soldiers who had come there -- I went to the collection

Page 15238

 1     centre, and I interviewed everyone and then submitted the list to Tuzla

 2     so that one could see what unit it was, and what platoon, and what were

 3     the details, so that they could see that these were mostly soldiers,

 4     perhaps some were not.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic.

 6        A.   You're welcome.

 7        Q.   Before the break, didn't you state that a list including 8.000

 8     people was provided to you and that you had objections to the effect that

 9     there were many persons with the same first and last names, the place and

10     date of birth, and so on?

11        A.   The cantonal commission never provided me with a list of persons

12     who had gone missing from Srebrenica.  I simply had a chance, thanks to

13     the good co-operation that the ICRC provided me with a list, which

14     included some repetitions of names.  How many instances there were, I

15     couldn't tell you, but did I raise an objection that that was wrong

16     because there were instances where information was identical.  The

17     numbers were not huge, but the document needed to be put in order because

18     there were doubts that it could include persons still alive, and so on.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic.  And can you tell us whether you know if

20     the list was made by the representative of the ICRC who provided it to

21     you, or whether she got it from Muslims who made it on the basis of their

22     information and lists?

23        A.   I can just suppose that it was the ICRC who made it on the basis

24     of the missing persons who were reported to them from all sides.  But

25     this is just an assumption.

Page 15239

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you also assume that, on the basis of that, the

 2     media and reports of various commissions, including those from

 3     Republika Srpska, mentioned the number of 7.000?  Is that something you

 4     assume or is it a number which is established on the basis of certain

 5     data and information?  Do you know how this number was reached?

 6        A.   I don't know how to tell you.  I think that more investigation is

 7     still needed in order to reach a really final number.  I think it's

 8     inhumane to reduce the number of victims, but it's also inhumane to

 9     increase it.  In any case, there were quite sufficient numbers of

10     casualties, even too many, and it's really bad to inflict pain on anyone

11     in this way.  There have been victims.  As for the number which is

12     mentioned, if we talk about the media, certain analysts, or, I don't

13     know, experts, who appear, mention 3.200 as a realistic number.  I just

14     say what they are mentioning.  But what the numbers really are, that's

15     something that I would not dare to try and estimate or prognosticate, as

16     a man.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18        A.   You're welcome.

19        Q.   And can you answer this question:  If the

20     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina made a report showing the number of

21     inhabitants and soldiers who left Srebrenica, would it be correct to

22     present that as well, and then calculate the number of persons who have

23     gone missing on the basis of that, rather than to give approximate

24     numbers?

25        A.   All right.  I agreed that that should be done, but also the

Page 15240

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina side or the local population would not be happy about

 2     that.  Then it should be investigated and it should be confirmed because

 3     it's their list, after all, and their data.  Whether the data matches the

 4     actual situation, that is something that has to be investigated by those

 5     who are unhappy with the information and then either refute that or

 6     confirm it.

 7        Q.   Thank you for what you said, Mr. Mitrovic.  Thank you for the

 8     knowledge you have about this issue.  We will move on to other questions.

 9     Tomorrow, we will also show you a film, as we will have more time, where

10     you will be able to see what the Muslims say and how many people perished

11     during the break-through.

12             My question for you now would be this: Do you know whether all

13     who were killed during the break-through were included in the lists which

14     the ICRC representative gave to you?  Thank you.

15        A.   I don't know.  I don't know whether they were listed.  There are

16     many things that could be discussed, whether those who were killed --

17     whether all those killed or perished were found, how many drowned in the

18     Drina, when everything is ordered, investigated in the field and on the

19     ground, and the final numbers are established, then that would represent

20     the actual situation.  And on the basis of something that appears here

21     and there, I could not really give a judgement about the actual number

22     and about what is true and what is not.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Please don't get angry.  I just asked you because you

24     had seen those lists.  You had them in your hands.  So I just asked you

25     for your opinion.

Page 15241

 1        A.   Excuse me, but it did not say there where someone was killed,

 2     whether he was killed or not.  It was just a list.  It would say the list

 3     of missing persons.  So I couldn't know whether he had gone missing

 4     during break-through or whether it was under other circumstances.

 5     Nothing of that was included.  It was just a list of Srebrenica

 6     inhabitants who had gone missing.  That is how it was formulated.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked here on page 27 of today's transcript

 8     about the airport.  And you answered by saying that you were twice at the

 9     airport.  You've said first time was in May, and then, after that, there

10     was another meeting.  And then in the end, you said that nothing

11     happened, but that Bulatovic [as interpreted] and Masovic would agree

12     that five persons from each side would be exchanged.

13             My question is this: Did you have a feeling that sometimes it was

14     intentional not to agree about all-for-all exchanges or exchanges of

15     great numbers of people, so that these specific persons, such as Masovic

16     and Bulatovic, could carry out such transactions, exchanging four or five

17     people who were paid for, as you said, 28.000 Deutschmarks.  Thank you.

18        A.   It was shameful that we should make such a trip and that then it

19     should pass in an exchange of arguments between the two chairmen, that

20     nothing would be agreed, that a bottle of whiskey would arrive and be

21     emptied, and then, as if nothing had happened, the two of them would say,

22     Look, old man - with such words - transfer these five, no problems we can

23     do it this evening.  You also transfer the other four.  These were the

24     numbers, more or less.  Let me not mention the names.  But there was no

25     mention of the all-for-all exchange.  What I said is true.  It did happen

Page 15242

 1     that way.  I can say another three or four sentences about that, if you

 2     want me to.

 3        Q.   Please go ahead.

 4        A.   When the president of the Muslim commission, Amor Masovic,

 5     offered an exchange to me, which I refused, I relied on the principle

 6     that exchanges should be conducted in groups, and this is what the

 7     parents of those captured at Lisace agreed with.  But weapon the

 8     Tuzla Commission offered individual exchanges or groups up to five, I

 9     told the parents that if they wanted to have individual exchanges that it

10     was up to them to determine who would be exchanged, because any splits

11     between -- or inside a group created doubts, and these were honest people

12     who decided to patiently wait for the whole group to be exchanged.

13     However, there was this case I referred to, of a man from Bijeljina.  His

14     in-law provided money for him to be released, and he was released a month

15     before the rest.  And then the money had to be repaid because a debt was

16     taken, and then the story was that he wished to end his life because he

17     was unable to repay it, et cetera, et cetera.  So that's what it boiled

18     down to.

19             There were expectations or lack thereof by the state commission

20     presidents.  I must say that on our side it had been a poor choice of

21     person.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did Amor Masovic receive the 28.000 German marks, or

23     a part of, when he agreed to that exchange before everyone else was?

24        A.   I don't know.  I really can't say.

25        Q.   Please slow down.

Page 15243

 1        A.   I don't know.  But it was on our side, too.  There were two such

 2     cases.  Somebody who represented the parents accompanied me to an

 3     exchange, and then, all of a sudden, he offered me money for his son to

 4     be released.  He did say that he knew I was an honest person who wouldn't

 5     take the money, but he said that I should give it over to the Muslims.

 6     This really angered me, and I told him the Muslims never asked for any

 7     money from me, and how would you feel if your son were released and the

 8     rest remained?

 9             So that stopped him in his tracks.

10             There was another similar incident.  It was all aimed at giving

11     money to the other side.  It wasn't attempted that I receive the money.

12     They knew that decent people were involved in those exchanges and

13     whenever there was any mention of money, that money was always supposed

14     to go to the other side.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I would kindly ask you to speak more slowly.  You see

16     how long it takes for the transcript to catch up.

17        A.   Very well.

18        Q.   We want every word of yours recorded, and the interpreters cannot

19     speak as fast as our exchange can go.  Thank you very much.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 5800 in

21     e-court.

22             Thank you.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   We can see the document now.  I must say, for the record, that it

25     is a document of the Main Staff of the VRS, dated the 29th

Page 15244

 1     of September, 1993.  It was sent to the RS government and the central

 2     commission for POW exchange, as well as civilian exchange for -- for

 3     information.  It is titled:  "Work of the Commission for Exchange of

 4     prisoners of war and civilians."

 5             The document was signed by General Milovanovic, Chief of the

 6     Main Staff, as we will see later when we turn to the last page.  But

 7     let's first look at the contents.

 8             I just wanted to inform you of who signed this document before

 9     you begin answering my questions.  I will quote from paragraph 2 which

10     you have already read, probably.

11             It reads:

12             "It is a fact that your commission may not exchange prisoners of

13     war, given that you have no prisoners of war or Muslim civilians in your

14     zone of responsibility."

15             I omitted to say that it was sent to the Drina Corps:

16             "This, however, does not justify the request of some members of

17     your commission to be granted approval by the responsible organs to have

18     Serb civilians from territories under the Muslim control in return for

19     money or goods."

20             In your examination-in-chief, you also said that up to the moment

21     when you joined the exchange process, and when Todorovic was there, there

22     were all sorts of things taking place.  It was at page 68 of the

23     transcript.

24             Can you tell us whether a note -- or, a document like this was

25     inevitable, and once you took over your position, did you, as well as

Page 15245

 1     Todorovic, abide by the instructions issued by a higher instance, as in

 2     this case, it came from the Chief of Staff of the VRS?

 3        A.   Even without this order, when I took over the duty of the

 4     commission chairman, I conducted myself as such.  First of all, I asked

 5     the chief of security to inform the corps commander that we will no

 6     longer transport packages, and at every round of talks and every

 7     exchange, there was at least a truck-load of goods that was sent to

 8     Tuzla.

 9             You mentioned superior officers.  I said that I would refuse to

10     do that and that chief of security was informed that the former chairman

11     was paid for the transport of those packages.  I wanted it to be clear

12     that no one was going to take any money and that no packages were to be

13     transported.  Regular mail was carried, though, and all letters I

14     received, I asked not to be sealed.  We also received such shipments from

15     Tuzla.  The prisoners at Batkovic were also able to rely on the ICRC to

16     take their mail, and we did too.  So there was no trade.  We tried to do

17     it in honest terms, and that is why I always insisted on exchanging a

18     whole group.  If that could not be achieved, individual exchanges were

19     possible, but following an approval of the president or someone higher

20     up.  If that was missing, all sorts of rumours start circulating, and

21     then the whole issue of exchanges is doubted.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mitrovic.  Let's wrap this topic by me ask you

23     this: At page 68, line 9 and onwards, you said that as of that moment,

24     the military police took over security in Batkovic.  Was the centre

25     guarded by someone else before that?

Page 15246

 1        A.   Yes.  As I said, members of the army provided security before.

 2     But they were individuals who, I believe, found a safe haven, so as to

 3     avoid being sent to the front lines.  They enjoyed certain protection.  I

 4     don't know who appointed them to those positions, and it is not up to me

 5     to speculate, but I didn't like that.  I didn't like how they treated the

 6     prisoners because there were those who occasionally shouted, especially

 7     when I wasn't there, but it also happened even when I was there.  In

 8     other words, their behaviour was incorrect, improper; although, I must

 9     say that whenever I was there, I didn't see any serious incidents such as

10     physical mistreatment.  I even interviewed the prisoners individually,

11     without the presence of anyone from the command, to tell me whether

12     anyone was mistreating them.  I always did so individually because as a

13     group they wouldn't dare tell me.  I wanted to know whether there was

14     anybody who mistreated them.  And when cigarettes were being bought for

15     them in town, I asked what they had -- were forced to pay for it.  And I

16     always checked what the actual price of goods and cigarettes was.  The

17     security itself boiled down to some sort of bartering, exchanges,

18     et cetera, and, in the end, the police took it over.

19        Q.   Thank you.  That's all we wanted to know.  And we will resume

20     tomorrow.  Have a quiet night.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, will you use this document we have

22     in front of us tomorrow?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, we will gladly

24     tender it.  And, in case it is not admitted, we may provide it as a

25     reference.

Page 15247

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will tender it tomorrow, if I understand

 2     correctly.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Perhaps we shouldn't

 4     waste any more time on that today.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 6             We have to adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow in

 7     the afternoon, 2.15 in this courtroom.  Thank you very much.

 8             We adjourn.

 9                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of June,

11                           2011, at 2.15 p.m.