Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15985

 1                           Monday, 4 July 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             At the outset of today's hearing, the Chamber would like to deal

 7     with some procedural matters.

 8             First, the Chamber notes that the Prosecution has filed its

 9     notification of withdrawal of its motion concerning scheduling of

10     Prosecution Rule 98 bis oral arguments on the 30th of June, 2011.  This

11     is hereby put on the record.

12             Secondly, we are now very close to the end of the Prosecution's

13     case, and the Trial Chamber needs to plan the next phase of the trial, as

14     far as possible.  Therefore, we would like the Prosecution to file a

15     schedule for the remaining witnesses.

16             The Trial Chamber notes that the confidential supplemental motion

17     for leave to amend its 65 ter exhibit list and witness list, filed on the

18     14th of June, contains a request for the addition of two witnesses to the

19     65 ter witness list, and that this motion is still pending because we are

20     awaiting B/C/S translation and then the response by the accused.  So the

21     schedule to be filed may need to be revised, in light of the decision of

22     the Trial Chamber on this motion.  Nonetheless, it will be helpful if the

23     Prosecution files already a schedule of the remainder of the witnesses it

24     now knows that it will be calling.

25             May I ask the Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey, when you will be in a

Page 15986

 1     position to file the schedule?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This afternoon, Mr. President.  I, of course,

 3     knew that that would be an interest for the Trial Chamber, and, of

 4     course, it's our interest -- everyone's interest, so I can go over it

 5     briefly to give you an idea.  And I know Mr. Thayer is working on the

 6     filing, and even -- and an e-mail before that, so you can see it.  But

 7     this last week, we have had a chance to, well, either get or not get

 8     witnesses, so I can give you briefly right now -- it won't take long so

 9     you can see where we are.

10             It would probably be best to go into private session just because

11     I will mention some witnesses' names, which I think is always helpful.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We go into private session.  I would appreciate

13     such an update.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15987











11  Pages 15987-15988 redacted. Private session.















Page 15989

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to raise two matters before you get

23     the floor, Mr. McCloskey.

24             We understand, from your submission just in private session, that

25     you will be able to file such a schedule this afternoon, and we will be

Page 15990

 1     happy to receive it at least by tomorrow.  Thank you.

 2             The Chamber would also request the Prosecution to -- I would like

 3     to put it in a different way.  Was that already a withdrawal of certain

 4     witnesses from the 65 ter witness list or will it be part of your

 5     submission to be expected this afternoon?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think that would be part of the submission.

 7     I think it's the simplest way to do it.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             At this point in time, I would like to ask you, Mr. Tolimir:  The

10     Trial Chamber would like to receive information on your future intentions

11     to assist us in planning, if you are in a position to provide this

12     information.  As I said, we are now very close to the end of the

13     Prosecution's case.  Are you able to say whether you will be making

14     submissions pursuant to Rule 98 bis, or will you be able to do that at a

15     later stage?  And if so, when can we expect that?

16             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please move the microphone.  Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I greet all those present, and may

19     today's procedure be conducted in accordance with God's will and not

20     mine.  I would like to greet everyone, because I haven't seen any of you

21     in a while.  That includes the OTP, the Defence, and the Trial Chamber.

22             I can say immediately after the end of the Prosecution case, the

23     Defence will be ready to respond pursuant to Rule 98 bis, but that's

24     following the break and following the end of the OTP's case.  And we also

25     shall be requiring some time to prepare.  We don't have time to prepare

Page 15991

 1     while we're still busy hearing and cross-examining witnesses.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To avoid any misunderstanding, it's not a

 3     question to respond pursuant to Rule 98 bis, but if you will submit a

 4     motion according to Rule 98 bis.  It's up to you to decide if you will

 5     file such a submission, oral submission in court, or not.  And this is

 6     the question I wanted to put to you, if we can expect that or not.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 8             The Defence would like that to be in writing, if the Chamber so

 9     decides and, indeed, allows.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First, I would like to draw your attention to the

11     wording of Rule 98 bis.  It refers solely to oral submissions.  I would

12     understand that you prepare it in writing and then present it to the

13     Chamber orally by reading it, but this is the wording of the Rule,

14     itself.

15             Again, I would like to ask you:  Can you help us with any

16     information, if you will be, and whether you will be, and, if so, when

17     you will be in a position to tell us if there will be any 98 bis

18     submission by the Defence?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             We shall certainly abide by your instructions and put forward our

21     position orally, once we have it prepared.  We can do that immediately

22     after the Prosecution case is over.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That helps, and we

24     understood your position.

25             I would like now to turn to an additional matter.

Page 15992

 1             I would like to take the opportunity to remind the parties that

 2     there are currently many exhibits in evidence which only have draft

 3     translations.  The Chamber invites both parties to up-load the final

 4     translations of the exhibits, once they are received, and to inform the

 5     Registry and the Chamber once this has taken place.  By the end of this

 6     case, there should be no more draft translations in evidence.

 7             Mr. McCloskey, you wanted to raise another matter?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  It was related to the

 9     previous discussion.

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22             And then I just -- as I said, Ms. Stewart has given me, and I

23     have a list of about 25 translations, if you would like me to read that

24     into the record.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To save some time, I would propose a different

Page 15993

 1     approach.

 2             You have provided the Chamber, by e-mail, with this list of 25

 3     exhibits now with a translation into B/C/S or English.  There's only one

 4     problem.  The 15th exhibit, P2346, was MFI'd not only pending

 5     translation, but also for further authentication, so in that case this

 6     will not be admitted now, but depends on the further development of our

 7     case.  All others should be -- there should be a list on the record by

 8     internal memorandum to save some time and possible misunderstandings.  I

 9     would like to instruct the Registrar to provide the parties and the

10     Chamber with such a list.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Any other matters to be raised?  It's not the

13     case.

14             The witness should be brought in, please.

15             Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we just please

17     go into private session for a moment?  Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15994











11  Page 15994 redacted. Private session.















Page 15995

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 9     you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

11             The witness should be brought in now.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please switch on the microphones.

14             Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome to the courtroom.  Our apologies

15     for the delayed start.  We had to deal with some procedural matters.

16             Would you now please read aloud the affirmation on the card which

17     is shown to you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  MILE MICIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

23     yourself comfortable.

24             First, the Prosecution, during their examination-in-chief, will

25     put questions to you.

Page 15996

 1             Mr. Elderkin, you have the floor.

 2             MR. ELDERKIN:  Mr. President, thank you, and good afternoon to

 3     Your Honours and everyone else in the courtroom.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Elderkin:

 5        Q.   And to you, Witness.  Could I ask, as we discussed when we met

 6     yesterday, that if it seems like we're going too fast, to try to speak at

 7     a pace that the interpreters can keep up with.

 8             And first of all, sir, please, could you say your full name?

 9        A.   Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon, General.  Good

10     afternoon to the Prosecution.

11             My name is Mile Micic.  And do you want me to say anything else?

12        Q.   And your father's name, please?

13        A.   My father's name is Marko.

14        Q.   What's your date of birth?

15        A.   3rd November 1973.  I was born in Zenica municipality in Bosnia

16     and Herzegovina.

17        Q.   And you consider yourself to be of Serb ethnicity?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   Sir, have you had a chance this weekend to look over the

20     transcript of an interview that you gave to Prosecution investigators in

21     November of 2009?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   When you re-read your interview, did you identify any of your

24     answers that were not correctly transcribed?

25        A.   There were a lot of grammatical errors.  There were sentences

Page 15997

 1     that did not convey the proper sense, but that was, more or less, that.

 2        Q.   And apart from those grammatical errors, are all the answers that

 3     you gave during that interview accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

 4        A.   I did not understand your question.  Could you please repeat?

 5        Q.   Are the answers recorded in the transcript accurate, in terms of

 6     the substantive information that you gave during the interview?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did you answer truthfully the questions that you were asked

 9     during that interview?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I'd like to ask briefly about your education and background, to

12     give the Court some sense of what happened in your life, before we move

13     to 1995.

14             First, could you tell us, briefly, what level of education you

15     received?

16        A.   Elementary and secondary education in my native municipality.

17     The secondary school I attended was the School for Electricians, and that

18     was what I completed before 1981 -- 1991.  Then the war started.  My

19     education was thus interrupted, and I don't have any military education.

20        Q.   And what's your current occupation, sir?

21        A.   Currently, I'm a repairman.  I repair electrical appliances in a

22     factory, or, rather, electrical machinery.

23        Q.   Did you ever perform military service?

24        A.   I didn't serve in the former JNA.  I did my compulsory military

25     service in the VRS.

Page 15998

 1        Q.   What date did you start your military service in the VRS?

 2        A.   On the 8th of August, 1992.

 3        Q.   Did you serve in any particular VRS unit?

 4        A.   It was the 67th Communications Regiment.

 5        Q.   And did you receive any specialist training when you joined the

 6     VRS?

 7        A.   I did not understand your question.

 8        Q.   Did you receive any specialist training beyond the training given

 9     to every soldier who joined the VRS?  Did you learn any specialist skill

10     or were you simply taught how to wear a uniform, to march, to fire a gun,

11     et cetera?

12        A.   Besides the basic skills, I also had some training in

13     communications specific to that regiment.  That training was very short

14     and didn't last more than a month.

15        Q.   What place were you when you received that training in the

16     Communications Regiment?

17        A.   That training was carried out in the Communications Regiment, and

18     its command was in Crna Rijeka.

19        Q.   After you completed that training, did you continue to serve at

20     Crna Rijeka?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What were your duties, during the period after you completed

23     training, in 1992 through to, say, the end of 1994?

24        A.   When I completed the training, I started driving the commander

25     and the deputy commander in my regiment.

Page 15999

 1        Q.   Can you tell us their names, if you remember?

 2        A.   The commander's name was Lieutenant-Colonel Gredo.

 3        Q.   And at some point, did you become the driver to General Tolimir?

 4        A.   That happened either in early 1995 or in mid-1995.

 5        Q.   Were you General Tolimir's driver before July of 1995?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And did you work full time as General Tolimir's driver once you

 8     were assigned to him?

 9        A.   I didn't understand your question.  Please repeat.

10        Q.   Did you work only for General Tolimir, as his driver, once you

11     were assigned to him, or did you perform additional tasks or other duties

12     for the Communications Regiment at the same time?

13        A.   I did not have any assignments or duties in the regiment.  My

14     only task was to drive.  And in this particular case, I drove the

15     general.  And I was also supposed to carry out his orders, if there were

16     any forthcoming.

17        Q.   Just to give us an idea of the work you did for General Tolimir,

18     can you tell us what kind of car or cars General Tolimir was using at

19     that time?

20        A.   It was a small passenger vehicle, and there was also a jeep.

21        Q.   And were you responsible for maintaining those vehicles, or you

22     simply would get in at the beginning of each day and do the driving, and

23     that's it?

24        A.   My primary task was to drive.  I also maintained the cars, making

25     sure that nothing happened either to me or to the general while I was

Page 16000

 1     driving him around.

 2             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd like to see, please, in e-court Exhibit P104,

 3     at page 10, I think, in the e-court.

 4        Q.   So while this image is coming up:  As you'll remember, we looked

 5     yesterday at a simplified map, and I'd ask that when it comes on screen,

 6     you'll tell me if you agree that it shows the main roads in the eastern

 7     part of Republika Srpska.

 8             If we could rotate 90 degrees to the right, please, and perhaps

 9     you could zoom in first onto the top half and then scroll down after a

10     moment, just so the writing is a little clearer.

11             So are you able to make out the place names written on that map,

12     and do you agree that it's a version of the map we had a look at

13     yesterday?

14        A.   Yes, you showed me this map yesterday.

15        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to leave that on screen while I move to July of

16     1995.  It hopefully will help us as we talk through any of the trips we

17     discuss.

18             You told us you were General Tolimir's driver starting at some

19     point in 1995, before July.  Thinking now to July 1995, do you recall on

20     what date Srebrenica was captured?

21        A.   I only heard in the media that that happened on the 12th of July.

22        Q.   Why do you remember that particular date, the 12th of July?

23        A.   On that day, on the 12th of July, it was an important date for me

24     because it is my Name Day celebration.  Every person of Orthodox belief

25     has such a day in a year.  For me, it's the 12th of July.  That's why I

Page 16001

 1     remember it so well.

 2        Q.   Were you with General Tolimir on the 12th of July, 1995?

 3        A.   In the statement that I provided to you, I said that I remember

 4     that on the 12th of July, we went to Bijeljina and back.

 5        Q.   To be clear for the record on this trial, because we haven't got

 6     your statement in evidence before the Court, you say:  "We went to

 7     Bijeljina and back."  Who do you mean by "we," please?

 8        A.   General Tolimir and myself.

 9        Q.   So starting from the beginning of that day, can you tell us what

10     you and General Tolimir did that day?  Tell us about this trip to

11     Bijeljina that you just mentioned.  Where did you start from and how did

12     you travel?

13        A.   I don't know the exact time when we departed.  We did not have

14     any problems getting to Bijeljina.  We arrived there.  The general had

15     some commitments over there.  I don't know what those commitments were.

16     It was not my duty to know.  My duty was only to transport the general to

17     the place where he told me to take him and to await further instructions.

18     On that same day, we returned to Crna Rijeka.

19        Q.   You say you went to Bijeljina, and Bijeljina is a town.  Was

20     there a specific location in the town, a military location, or another

21     facility that you went to on General Tolimir's order?

22        A.   I believe that I took him to the Security Department of the

23     East Bosnia Corps.

24        Q.   When you arrived at the Security Department at the

25     East Bosnia Corps, what happened?

Page 16002

 1        A.   The general, I suppose, had a meeting.  I don't know what.  And I

 2     was waiting for him in a room which was a dedicated room for the drivers.

 3     That's where I usually waited for him.  And he finished whatever he was

 4     doing, he came to me and he said, Let's go back.

 5        Q.   Were there any other drivers waiting with you in that room for

 6     their bosses to attend the same meeting?  Do you know who else was at

 7     that meeting?

 8        A.   I don't know who else attended the meeting.  I believe that only

 9     a soldier, whose duty was to make coffees, was in that same room with me.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we could look at the map that we had on the

11     screen a moment ago, if that's still available.

12        Q.   And so if we can scroll up the map, you see the red triangle in

13     the centre.  Hopefully that will come back in a second.

14             MR. ELDERKIN:  Carrying on scrolling down a little further,

15     please.  That's good.

16        Q.   Sir, do you see, in the centre bottom of the picture, a red

17     triangle marking Crna Rijeka?  Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   Could you tell us if the roads shown on this map, going up

20     through Han Pijesak, then Vlasenica, Milici, past Zvornik, and then if we

21     scroll further north, up along the river through Janja and up to

22     Bijeljina, is that the route that you followed to go up for the meeting

23     in Bijeljina on the 12th of July or was there another route that you

24     followed?

25        A.   That's the only road that was passable at the time.

Page 16003

 1        Q.   And you told us after the meeting, you travelled back from

 2     Bijeljina to Crna Rijeka.  Did you follow that same route back, as you

 3     say it's the only route passable at the time?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you stop somewhere on the way back?

 6        A.   I've already stated that we may have had a very short break in

 7     Vlasenica, perhaps a few minutes.  I don't know exactly how long we

 8     stopped for, but it couldn't have been long.

 9        Q.   So where in Vlasenica did you stop?  Again, it's a town.  Did you

10     stop at a military facility, some other place in Vlasenica?  Please be

11     specific.

12        A.   We stopped in front of the corps command building.

13        Q.   Sir, after the 12th of July, for the rest of that month, do you

14     remember any other specific dates or the events of any other specific

15     dates on which you drove General Tolimir?

16        A.   I don't remember the date.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well, without trying to establish specific dates, in which

18     area were you driving General Tolimir during the rest of that month,

19     which part of the country?

20        A.   One day, we travelled to Zepa -- actually, to one part of the

21     area between Rogatica and Zepa.  However, I can't remember what date was

22     that.

23        Q.   And I don't want to ask you about trying to establish a specific

24     date if you can't remember that.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  But I would like to, please, have in e-court

Page 16004

 1     page 12 of the same exhibit, P104.

 2             If you could scroll down a little bit, please.  I think like --

 3     like that is good.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   So do you remember looking also at this map we have on the screen

 5     now when we met yesterday?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   There are various locations marked on this map, showing the area

 8     from Han Pijesak down to Rogatica.  And as you can see, some of the place

 9     names are mentioned in English, but they all have the town, or village

10     name, or another designation in the label which I hope you can

11     understand.

12             If we can look at the map in the area from Zepa and perhaps just

13     further south from there, if we can scroll slightly further down.

14             Sir, can you recall travelling to locations in this area when you

15     say you went to Zepa sometime in July of 1995?  And, specifically, we can

16     see the locations marked there as "Boksanica Check-Point," "Borike IKM,"

17     and also "Borike Villa."  Did you go to any of these locations in July of

18     1995?

19        A.   Yes.  That was the Boksanica check-point.  That's where we were.

20        Q.   And you said:  "That's where we were."  Just to be clear for the

21     trial record, by "we," do you mean yourself and General Tolimir?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you spend any nights away from Crna Rijeka, in this area,

24     during July of 1995?

25        A.   I don't understand your question.  Please repeat.

Page 16005

 1        Q.   Did you stay at any location in this area, in the Borike area and

 2     Boksanica area, with General Tolimir or close by to General Tolimir

 3     during July of 1995?

 4        A.   By the Boksanica check-point, that's where the general and myself

 5     spent a few days.  I don't know how many days.

 6        Q.   Do you know of a place that's called here the Borike Villa?  Have

 7     you heard of that place?

 8        A.   Is that a place or is that a feature or facility, Villa Borike?

 9     I've never heard of any such thing before.  What is that?

10        Q.   Do you know of a villa that used to be the property of, I think,

11     Dzemal Bijedic located at Borike, a house, like a country house by a

12     forest and by some open plains near the Borike Horse Farm?

13        A.   There was a building there.  I don't know what it was called or

14     who it belonged to.

15        Q.   Was it some kind of villa or country house?

16        A.   A building of some sort a bit more elaborate than just a normal,

17     ordinary house.  A bit more luxurious, as far as I can remember.

18        Q.   Did General Tolimir, to your knowledge or recollection, spend any

19     nights at that location while you were in the area in July of 1995?  Did

20     he sleep there?

21        A.   In one of the buildings, perhaps in that building - I don't

22     remember - if memory serves me well, I think that we did spend one night

23     in that building.

24        Q.   Did you, yourself, sleep in the building or did you, as the

25     driver, sleep somewhere else?

Page 16006

 1        A.   I spent that one evening in one of the buildings there.  I'm not

 2     sure if that was the one or not.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I interrupt you for a moment, Mr. Elderkin.

 4             Could you please describe the buildings, if you seen there, as

 5     you just indicated, at least more than one building; for instance, the

 6     size, the colour, and which they belonged to each other?  Could you

 7     describe them?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I said there was one building,

 9     as far as I remember, and I can't remember exactly how it looked.  I

10     can't remember any of the details.  Perhaps it was a little -- its

11     condition was a little better than the condition of an ordinary house

12     would have been at the time, and that's about as much as I can remember.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What do you think when this building, this house,

14     was built, in which time-period?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly before the war, I can't

16     say exactly.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before which war?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The war that broke out in 1992 in

19     BH territory.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was it built in the 19th century, or the 20th

21     century, before or after the Second World War?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure if I'm able to answer

23     this question.  Probably after World War II, but I don't know when

24     exactly.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you recall how many buildings were in these

Page 16007

 1     premises or nearby?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think just the one building.  I

 3     can't remember any others.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 5             Mr. Elderkin, please proceed.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Sir, do you remember which vehicle you were driving during this

 8     time you spent in the Borike and Boksanica area with General Tolimir?

 9        A.   Given the lay of the land, it was a jeep vehicle we were using, a

10     Mercedes vehicle built specially for hilly terrain like that.

11        Q.   This Mercedes jeep, was it fitted out for military use?

12        A.   It was the kind of car used by the former JNA, and it was now in

13     the VRS.

14        Q.   Did it have any kind of communications capability, any kind of

15     radio communication capability?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Sir, during the same month, July 1995, did you ever go down into

18     Zepa town?

19        A.   Yes, once.  I can't remember the date or the exact time.

20        Q.   Who did you go with?

21        A.   General Tolimir.

22        Q.   What did you do with General Tolimir down in Zepa town?  Did you

23     spend some time there or drive down and return immediately?

24        A.   I drove the general there.  I waited up, perhaps half an hour or

25     thereabouts, and then we drove back.

Page 16008

 1        Q.   Was the Muslim population still in Zepa while you were down

 2     there?

 3        A.   Yes, some were still around; I'm not sure if all of them.

 4        Q.   And what were they doing?

 5        A.   Could you please repeat that?  I'm not sure if I'm clear about

 6     what it means.

 7        Q.   The Muslim population, the people you observed in Zepa town while

 8     you were there, what were they doing?  Were they preparing to leave?

 9     Were they simply going about their daily lives?

10        A.   They certainly weren't pursuing their day-to-day activities.

11     Were they preparing to leave?  I can't say, really.

12        Q.   Did you witness any convoy leaving Zepa to take the Muslim

13     population to other parts of Bosnia?

14        A.   Yes, I did see one of those convoys with citizens leaving the

15     area.  It took them an awfully long time to leave the area, given the

16     conditions that prevailed at the time, and the road was in very poor

17     condition.  There was some buses that would break down along the road,

18     things like that.

19        Q.   Did you play any part in travelling with this convoy?  Tell us

20     about what you remember.

21        A.   Well, I had no part to play in that.  My only task was to wait

22     and to carry out any orders by the general, drive him places whenever

23     that was required, and that was the only job I did.

24        Q.   Where did you drive when you left Zepa town?

25        A.   I'm not sure I understand the question.  Where, when I left Zepa?

Page 16009

 1        Q.   Did you ever drive from Zepa to the confrontation line?

 2        A.   As far as I remember, from Zepa we went back to the check-point,

 3     and that's where we stayed.

 4        Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you about accompanying or leading a convoy

 5     from Zepa to the confrontation line.  Do you remember talking about that

 6     subject in the interview that you reviewed yesterday?

 7        A.   I remember that one occasion, I believe.  I was driving a car.

 8     General Tolimir was in it and another person.  I don't know who.  In my

 9     opinion, we were at the head of the column, I think the second car at the

10     head, preceded by the police at the head and the tail of the column

11     securing the column.  So we were the number-two car in that column.  My

12     task or my role - at least that is my opinion - was to go all the way to

13     the end of that route so that this person who was driving with us would

14     make sure that the convoy got through safe and that everyone would be

15     fine as they were on their way through RS territory.

16        Q.   When you got to the end of that route, where did you return

17     afterwards?  I assume you didn't stay at the edge of RS territory.

18        A.   Again, again, as far as the confrontation line.  When the people

19     or population left, we drove back to Boksanica, the check-point.

20        Q.   Did you make this journey to the confrontation line and back only

21     one time or on more than one occasion?

22        A.   I don't remember exactly whether it was once or twice.  At any

23     rate, it wasn't more than that.

24             MR. ELDERKIN:  Okay, sir.  Thank you very much.

25             Those are all the questions that I have, and I put myself in the

Page 16010

 1     Judges' hands.  I believe it's General Tolimir's turn now.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Elderkin.

 3             Now Mr. Tolimir has the opportunity to put questions to you, sir.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, it's your turn now.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             Again, peace to all of you, and may God steer us in our

 7     proceedings here.

 8                 I wish Mr. Micic a very good day, I wish him a pleasant stay

 9     in here Den Haag, and a safe trip back home.  And I would like to thank

10     him for coming here to testify.

11             I have no questions for him.  The one thing that I'd like to say

12     is I'm exceptionally pleased to see him.  He's done his job.  He's done

13     what he was expected to do.

14             Thank you very much, sir.  I have no questions for this witness.

15     Thank you.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, I take it since there was no

17     cross-examination, there will be no re-examination by the Prosecution.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  That's absolutely correct, Your Honour.

19             If I may also note, I don't know whether our next witness has yet

20     been brought across.  We were expecting a little longer on

21     cross-examination.  But if we could start the break now, and we can try

22     and sort things out.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

24             Sir, you will be pleased that this concludes your examination

25     here in this trial, in this courtroom.  Now you are free to return to

Page 16011

 1     your normal residence and your normal activities.  The Chamber would like

 2     to thank you that you were able to come to The Hague and testify in this

 3     trial.

 4             Indeed, I think it's appropriate to have our first break now, and

 5     I hope that the next witness will be ready after the break.

 6             We adjourn and resume at 4.00.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, especially to you, Ms. Hasan.

11     Welcome back.

12             The witness should be brought back in, please.

13             Mr. Tolimir.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             Before the witness comes in, I completed my questioning of the

16     last witness without asking any questions because I know that he still

17     suffers from traumas after losing his father and his brother.  I could

18     tell that he was under a lot of stress.  I also felt that Mr. Elderkin

19     was about to ask him more questions.  I don't oppose his statement being

20     admitted, where he provides a more detailed account of everything that

21     went on.  It might be useful to both us and the OTP.  I conferred with my

22     legal counsel, and he has informed me that the statement has not been

23     admitted.  It's 1D114.  And he clearly pointed out -- the witness clearly

24     pointed out that he stood by that statement.  Therefore, I think it might

25     as well be admitted.  Thank you.

Page 16012

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the moment, I can only note that it is too

 3     late for such a submission.  We are dealing now with the next witness.

 4             Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome to the courtroom.

 5             Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is

 6     shown to you now.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  MIHAJLO GALIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

13             Please sit down and make yourself comfortable.

14             The Prosecution is now putting questions to you.  Ms. Hasan now

15     has the floors.

16             MS. HASAN:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Good

17     afternoon witness.  Good afternoon to everyone else in the courtroom.

18             Just one preliminary matter, and that is that I was informed by

19     the witness this morning that he suffers from a medical condition that

20     prevents him for sitting down for long periods of time.  Particularly, he

21     has told me -- he has advised that after approximately an hour to an hour

22     and a half, he starts feeling -- experiencing pain in his legs, and so it

23     may be the case that he may need a break during his testimony.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this information.

25             Indeed, I would like to invite you to indicate whenever there is

Page 16013

 1     a need for a break, you should tell us and then we will do that, so that

 2     there is no reason for any pain for you.

 3             Ms. Hasan.

 4                           Examination by Ms. Hasan:

 5        Q.   Witness, would you please state your name for the record?

 6        A.   Mihajlo Galic.

 7        Q.   Have you recently had an opportunity to listen to the testimony

 8     that you gave in 2007 in the Popovic et al case?

 9        A.   Yes, yesterday.

10        Q.   Was the evidence that you gave during your testimony in 2007 true

11     and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

12        A.   I listened to it, and as far as I remember, the account was the

13     most truthful that I could provide at the time.

14        Q.   So if I asked you those very same questions today, would you

15     provide the same answers?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I then offer the transcript of

18     Mr. Galic's testimony from the Popovic case, bearing 65 ter number 6564 -

19     that's the under-seal transcript - and 65 ter 6565, to be admitted into

20     evidence.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Both exhibits will be received, the former under

22     seal.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 6564 shall be

24     assigned Exhibit P2436, under seal, and 65 ter document 6565 shall be

25     assigned Exhibit P2437.  Thank you.

Page 16014

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan.

 2             MS. HASAN:  And as regards the exhibits that were admitted

 3     through this witness or used with him during his prior testimony, there

 4     are a number of them that have already been admitted in this case.  For

 5     those that have not been, they have -- a few of them have already been

 6     assigned P numbers, provisional P numbers, and I will read those out.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think there is no need for that.

 8             MS. HASAN:  Okay.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is a very long list, and I take it it starts

10     with P1107, MFI, and goes to P1125, MFI.

11             MS. HASAN:  That is correct, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Those who are not yet in evidence will be

13     admitted, and the Registrar will provide you with -- no, there is no

14     need.  We have already the P numbers as MFI'd.

15             I would like to ask the Registrar to consult with me.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As they already have provisional P numbers, there

18     is no need for an internal memorandum.  All those listed will be

19     received.  There's only one which has not a P number yet.  This is

20     65 ter 7091.  This will be received and given a P number by the Registrar

21     now.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7091 shall be

23     assigned Exhibit P2438.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

25             May I ask you, have all the exhibits a translation?

Page 16015

 1             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I believe I see here one, P1114, does

 2     not appear to have a translation, which we will provide in due course,

 3     and I don't see any other ones.  There is one note, and that's in respect

 4     to P1115 -- sorry, it seems that there's more than just P1114 that

 5     requires a translation; P1116 and P1117, as well as 1118, so more than

 6     the one I first referred to.  In addition, P1115 --

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To avoid any error or misunderstanding at a later

 9     stage, I would like to invite you to file a note to the Registry.  They

10     will provide you and the parties and the Chamber with an internal

11     memorandum indicating which one of these documents are only marked for

12     identification, pending translation, and those who are already in

13     evidence.

14             MS. HASAN:  Certainly.  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You may proceed.

16             MS. HASAN:  I will then now move to read a summary of this

17     witness's prior testimony.

18             In July of 1995, Mihajlo Galic was a major and the assistant

19     chief of staff for Reinforcement and Personnel Affairs of the Zvornik

20     Brigade and worked directly under the chief of staff and deputy

21     commander, Major Dragan Obrenovic.

22             On the evening of the 13th of July, at approximately 10.00 or

23     11.00 p.m., Mr. Galic was resting at the Zvornik Brigade Command when he

24     received instructions to go to the brigade's forward command post, the

25     brigade's IKM, in Kitovnica, to replace Zvornik Brigade chief of

Page 16016

 1     security, Lieutenant Drago Nikolic as the IKM duty officer.  Nikolic was

 2     not present at the IKM when Mr. Galic arrived, and Mr. Galic did not try

 3     to contact him.  Mr. Galic arrived at the IKM on the night of the 13th of

 4     July in advance of his scheduled shift which was to commence at 7.00 in

 5     the morning on the 14th of July.  Mr. Galic remained on duty at the IKM

 6     until the morning of the 15th of July.  He testified that his replacement

 7     of Nikolic on the night of the 13th of July was an "extraordinary shift

 8     duty."

 9             During his testimony, Mr. Galic was shown the original IKM

10     log-book.  He confirmed that he wrote the 13th of July, 1995, entry and

11     that the signature was his.

12             In addition to testifying about replacing Nikolic at the

13     brigade's IKM, Mr. Galic also testified about a number of other topics,

14     including: the presence of the Zvornik Brigade's commander,

15     Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko Pandurevic's presence in the field from 4th or

16     5th July until at least the 15th of July; an order that he passed on from

17     Pandurevic to the Zvornik Brigade's assistant chief of staff for

18     Operations and Training, Major Miodrag Dragutinovic, regarding

19     Dragutinovic's next assignment; the number of Serb soldiers who were

20     killed in the Baljkovica area during the 15th and 16th of July, in 1995,

21     before the opening of the corridor; as well as his knowledge concerning

22     Exhibit P1112 of instructions which the brigade received from the

23     Main Staff in 1994 regarding the security organ reporting procedures.

24        Q.   Mr. Galic, you have heard the summary I have just read about your

25     prior testimony.  Are there any changes you would like to make to that or

Page 16017

 1     does that accurately give a fair representation of the testimony you

 2     gave?

 3        A.   This is precisely what I stated.  Your words were an accurate

 4     reflection of what I said.

 5             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I have no questions for this witness

 6     at this stage.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             Mr. Tolimir, are you in a position to commence your

 9     cross-examination now?

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13             May God's will be done in these proceedings, and not necessarily

14     mine.

15             I would like to greet the witness and wish him a pleasant stay in

16     our midst.  We'll start with the summary.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   In the summary, the Prosecutor said that you were on furlough

20     from the brigade and that later on you were sent to the forward command

21     post to relieve Drago Nikolic.  Do you remember that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I already at this point in time ask both

25     speakers to pause between question and answer, wait a moment, because

Page 16018

 1     everything has to be interpreted into our language so that there's no

 2     overlapping.

 3             Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   I'll repeat the question.  Please, could you tell us who was it

 6     who ordered you to go to the forward command post and be on duty there?

 7        A.   I was on furlough, which means that the duty officer approached

 8     me and told me to go to the forward command post and do what I did.  So I

 9     received that information or that was conveyed to me by the brigade duty

10     officer.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did the duty officer receive that order from his

12     superior or from his subordinate?  Thank you.  Could you please wait

13     until the moment my words are fully recorded.  Thank you.

14        A.   I don't know that.  I don't know who he received the order or the

15     message from.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In this part of the summary, the Prosecutor said that

17     that was an extraordinary shift duty.  Did you perform extraordinary

18     shift duty at that command post before and after that?  Thank you.

19        A.   Yes.  For me, that was an extraordinary shift duty because I was

20     not on the rota.  Before that and after that, I was on the rota of the

21     brigade command.  I was assigned to work as a duty officer at the forward

22     command post.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did your chief of staff, who was your immediate

24     superior, know that you were supposed to go to the IKM to relieve

25     Drago Nikolic of his duty?  Thank you.

Page 16019

 1        A.   I didn't know it then; I don't know it now.  I don't know whether

 2     he knew that.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Could the witness please be shown -- and we have to move into

 5     private session in order to use the evidence provided by Witness PW-057.

 6     Can we go into private session, or if somebody thinks that we can stay in

 7     open session, I don't mind.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16020











11  Pages 16020-16025 redacted. Private session.















Page 16026

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

Page 16027

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Could we please have page 7 of the Serbian and page 8 of the

 3     English so that everyone is able to follow.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   We see here Attorney Petrusic saying "Zvornika Brigada" had a

 6     single military police company.  And then your answer is:  "Yes."

 7             And then the question is:

 8             "Who was in command of that military police contingent?"

 9             And then Mihajlo Galic answers:

10             "The military police commander, and you see this unit was

11     directly subordinate to the security organ."

12             He goes on to say:

13             "Hence, we may conclude and move this to the level of the

14     personnel issue; that the company commander was Miomir Jasikovac in July

15     1995, while his superior officer along this line of command was

16     Drago Nikolic."

17             And your answer is:  "That's right."

18             My question to you, sir, is this:  Do you know who was

19     Jasikovac's superior, and who had the authority to issue orders to

20     Jasikovac?  Thank you.

21        A.   The company commander.  The commander, the chief of staff, or the

22     security chief could have issued an order to the commander of the

23     Military Police Company.

24        Q.   Thank you.  What you just said, is that in keeping with the rules

25     on the use of the military police?  Thank you. ^

Page 16028

 1        A.   General, sir, I answer to the best of my ability and knowledge.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you for what you said.  Do you know who

 3     exercises command over a military police unit that is part of a brigade?

 4     Who writes up its assessment?  Who punishes them?  Who rewards them?  You

 5     were a personnel officer, so would this happen, Drago Nikolic or anyone

 6     else?

 7        A.   All the units within the brigade are under the brigade commander.

 8     Nevertheless, the chief of security is the person or the officer who

 9     works closely with the military police, as far as I know, and he gets

10     military policemen to perform all sorts of tasks; security, escort

11     control, arresting people, securing a compound, military barracks, that

12     sort of thing.  That's as far as I know.

13        Q.   Thank you.  A while ago when I read that thing in closed session,

14     did you not see that Mr. Nikolic was demanding that Mr. Obrenovic place

15     at his disposal Mr. Jasikovac and a component of the military police?  Do

16     you remember that?

17        A.   Yes, I remember that, and I remember that the unit was already

18     engaged in combat at that point in time, if my understanding is correct.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see that later on in that conversation, he

20     said, I'll think about it, when the other man wants to have at least a

21     part of that unit, and then he says, I'll think about it.

22             So my question is:  First of all, did you hear that, when

23     Obrenovic told Nikolic, I'll think about it, whether I'll give you at

24     least a part of that unit?

25        A.   Yes, I heard that from you because you read it back to me.  It

Page 16029

 1     really depends on what each of them were busy doing at the time, so

 2     that's probably why he phrased the remark the way he did, but not that

 3     I'd know about it.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  If Drago Nikolic had been in command of that unit,

 5     would he have asked permission from Obrenovic or would he have done as he

 6     saw fit?

 7        A.   Some of the activities performed within the military police

 8     company, I know that Drago Nikolic deployed those people outside the

 9     barracks, inside the barracks, getting them there, sending them

10     elsewhere.  Did he do that of his own initiative or with someone's

11     approval is not something that I'm aware of.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Was it perhaps the commander who ordered him to

13     deploy these people, in keeping with an order by the commander, himself?

14     Is this something that you're aware of?

15        A.   No, I'm not aware of that, General, sir.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that a commander commands the military

17     police, they are directly subordinate to him, just like in the case of

18     battalion commanders in other units that are part of a brigade?  Do you

19     know that?  You were a personnel officer, after all.  That's why I'm

20     asking.  Thank you.

21        A.   As a matter of principle, all the units are linked to the

22     commander, and the commander commands these units, but there are probably

23     some situations when the authorities shift.  I'm not familiar with the

24     rules governing the work of the military police, and I'm not privy to all

25     the nuts and bolts of how this actually worked.

Page 16030

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I understand that you don't understand.  It's not

 2     your job.  There is stuff that we don't know about your work.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But can we please now look at

 4     P1297, which is the rules governing the work of the military police.

 5             It's about to come up on the screen.  This is the rules governing

 6     the work of the military police in the Armed Forces of the SFRY.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you tendering the previous

 8     document?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  1D915 will be received as an exhibit.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D915 shall be

12     assigned Exhibit D294.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At this point in time, I would like to draw your

14     attention to another problem.  The testimony of the witness in the

15     Popovic case was -- these transcripts were already assigned with P

16     numbers, but I give the floor to the Registrar to have it on the record.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, with your leave, the transcript of

18     Mihajlo Galic's testimony in the Popovic et al case, dated 25th to 27th

19     April, 2007, was already assigned two exhibit numbers, one to the

20     confidential version, P1105, and P01106 to the public redacted version of

21     the transcript.

22             Further to that, exhibit numbers assigned today, namely, P2436,

23     under seal, to the 65 ter document 6564, and P2437 to the 65 ter document

24     6565, shall be removed, to be assigned to some other Prosecution

25     documents yet to be tendered.  In light of this correction,

Page 16031

 1     Exhibit P2438 that was assigned to the 65 ter document 7091 will also be

 2     assigned to another document at a later stage.

 3             At this point, Exhibit P2436 will be reassigned to the 65 ter

 4     document 7091.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this correction.

 6             Sir, I would like to remind you again, if you need a break,

 7     please let us know.  Otherwise, Mr. Tolimir will continue.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We may continue, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor again.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             Could we please now have the title of these rules so the witness

12     can see it.  Thank you.  Page 2 in e-court in the English.

13             Could we please now look at item 12 or paragraph 12, which is

14     page 13 in the Serbian and page 10 in the English - thank

15     you - paragraph 12.  Thank you.

16             Could we please go to page 9 in the Serbian.  This is page 20.

17     Nothing for us there.  Paragraph 12 of the rules.  Thank you.  That's

18     Chapter 2.  Thank you very much.

19             Could you please zoom in a little so the witness can see.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Sir, I'm about to quote, for your benefit, paragraph 12 of these

22     rules.  Before that, let me ask you:  Do you know if, in your brigade of

23     the VRS, the rules for the former JNA were, indeed, used?  Thank you.

24        A.   Yes, I think so.  There were no other rules that we could use, at

25     least not as far as I know.

Page 16032

 1        Q.   Thank you for this answer.

 2             Please have a look at paragraph 12.  Chapter 2, "The Command and

 3     Control of the Military Police," that is the heading.  Number 12 reads:

 4             "The officer in charge of the military unit, and institution

 5     within whose establishment the military police unit is placed or to which

 6     it is attached, commands and controls the military police."

 7             My question:  Who would be the officer in charge of the military

 8     police, in keeping with paragraph 12 of these rules?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Based on this, based on what you read out in paragraph 12, it

10     would be the most senior brigade commander.  But, again, I have to stress

11     this:  I find myself analysing these rules and instructions governing the

12     work of the military police.  I've never read this previously, nor,

13     indeed, was I at any point in time familiar with this.  It's very

14     difficult for me to address anything at all in relation to this set of

15     rules that I was never familiar with, to begin with.  The evidence that I

16     provided was based on my impressions of how things worked at the time

17     back in 1992 -- 1991 through 1995.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise to you, sir, but given your statement,

19     the statement that we have just quoted, saying that Drago Nikolic was in

20     command, I wish to ask you now this, sir:  Under the rules, could the

21     commander have been Drago Nikolic or would it have had to be the brigade

22     commander?  Thank you.

23        A.   Based on what we see on the screen, no.  But then whenever

24     there's a rule, there must be an exception too, so this was probably one

25     of those occasional exceptions where someone had to be in command,

Page 16033

 1     regardless of what the rules actually said.  I'm not sure if my

 2     understanding is correct, but this is what the rules say.

 3        Q.   We'll get to those exceptions.  Thank you very much.

 4             Let's move on to paragraph 13 to see whether that constitutes an

 5     exception:

 6             "With respect to specialty, the officer in charge of the security

 7     body of the unit or institution within whose establishment the military

 8     police unit is placed or to which it is attached controls the military

 9     police.  He makes suggestions to the officer in charge of the military

10     unit or institution on the use of military police units and is

11     responsible for the combat readiness of the military police unit and the

12     performance of their tasks."

13             End of quote.  My question:  Based on the provisions of

14     paragraph 13, the commander remains the same, but the security organ

15     makes suggestions on the use of the military police units; is that what

16     the rules say?

17        A.   It's not up to me to change the rule I see before my very eyes,

18     and I can't change what I'm looking at.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can we go to paragraph 2 of Article 13:

20             "When controlling a military police unit, the officer in charge

21     of the security body," from the first paragraph of this article, from

22     paragraph 1 of this item, "has the same rights and duties which the

23     officers of arms services of military units and institutions have in

24     controlling the units of arms and services."

25             My question:  Did Drago Nikolic have the same rights as the

Page 16034

 1     chief -- the various chiefs, the artillery chief, the engineers chief,

 2     the signals chief, or were his rights any different under these

 3     provisions of this article.

 4        A.   General, sir, I simply don't know.  I'm simply unable to

 5     interpret these rules, and it follows that I don't know how to answer

 6     your question as to whether he had the same rights or different rights.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.  I understand you.  As a personnel officer

 8     working in a brigade, did you know who exercised command over whom and

 9     who was who else's superior officer?

10        A.   I was familiar with the organisation chart of the brigade.  I

11     knew what the links were between people, but I can't be more specific

12     about any details.

13        Q.   Thank you.  What about those charts that you used?  Was there a

14     link between the military police commander and the brigade commander or

15     the military police commander and the chief of staff?

16        A.   Sir, General, it wasn't my chart.  I just looked at it several

17     times, but I wasn't the one who produced it or anything like that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us this:  What about the

19     personnel organ; did it have a working chart listing all the assistant

20     commanders and all the lower-ranking commanders that were directly in

21     touch with the overall commander?  Thank you.

22        A.   The personnel unit had the brigade's establishment chart.  We had

23     all the records, and those were the documents that we had.  I'm not sure

24     what to call it.

25        Q.   Thank you.  What did the establishment chart say?  Were the links

Page 16035

 1     drawn there between who was -- as to who was directly in touch with whom?

 2        A.   I don't remember specifically, but I think that the number of

 3     people in the command, in the units, in terms of their military

 4     specialties, in terms of their ranks, were all there, and that's how it

 5     was regulated.  Each unit had a certain number of this, a certain number

 6     of that, a certain number of men.  I was only interested in the number of

 7     men because that's what my records were about, the ones that I was

 8     keeping, but I didn't know about the links between these people.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much.  As it was you who would deliver to the

10     commander for signature proposals or decisions regarding promotions --

11     or, rather, did you do that?  When someone else was promoted to a higher

12     rank or a higher position, did you submit those documents for signature

13     to the commander, and how exactly did you do that?  Can you tell the

14     Trial Chamber, please?

15        A.   When officers were promoted under the brigade commander, the

16     brigade commander would be in charge of that.  Whenever there was

17     something that was wasn't within his remit, it would be left to the

18     superior commands; the corps command, for example.  Therefore, as far as

19     I remember, this was broken up for officers, for NCOs, and a different

20     procedure applied in each of these cases.  I think the officers were

21     under their superior commands -- under the brigade commander and the NCOs

22     under their superior commands.  That's as much as I can say.

23        Q.   Do you remember who made the proposals for these promotions to a

24     higher rank or a higher position?  Who was in charge of the proposals?

25     Thank you.

Page 16036

 1        A.   As far as I can remember, it was the units who made those

 2     proposals based on the results of work.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Since the units proposed that, tell me, who was in

 4     charge of promotions for commanders of independent units in the brigade?

 5     And could you also tell us which of the independent units existed in the

 6     brigade?

 7        A.   Proposals for the promotion of the officers of independent units,

 8     I assume that it came -- they came from the chief of staff to the

 9     commander.  And as for the independent units within the brigade, those

10     were battalions, the Military Police Company, the Engineers Company and

11     the Communications Company, as far as I can remember.  It was a long time

12     ago, so I'm not entirely sure that that was indeed the case.

13        Q.   Thank you.  It was, indeed, the way you have just told us.  You

14     have just mentioned a military police company.  Was it directly linked to

15     the brigade commander as an independent unit in the brigade?  Thank you.

16        A.   All units were linked to the brigade commander, all units.  And

17     if we follow that analogy, then the answer would be, Yes.  However, there

18     were exceptions.  I remember that the Military Police Company was also

19     linked to the chief of security, according to the schematic.  That's how

20     it was supposed to be.  I don't know whether that was, indeed, the case,

21     whether it was really true or not.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you show that schematic to the lawyers, or the

23     Prosecutor, or the Judges when you testified?  Was that schematic

24     presented, as such, to corroborate your words?

25        A.   I don't know.  I don't have that schematic.  I never had it.

Page 16037

 1        Q.   Please, this is a tribunal.  It's very important for the

 2     Trial Chamber to know whether the military police was an independent

 3     unit, subordinated to the commander, or was it subordinated to somebody

 4     else.  This is a tribunal.  It's very important for you to remember and

 5     to tell us, if you can.

 6        A.   I can only remember that all units were the commander's

 7     responsibility.  The commander was responsible for all the units.  That's

 8     as much as I know.  Anything else I would tell you, I would go beyond

 9     that way of thinking, because the commander was responsible for all.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at the bullet point 13 that you see on the

11     screen, where it says:

12             "The military police, in professional terms, is controlled by the

13     officer of the security organ of the military unit or institution on

14     whose strength it exists."

15             Does the security organ command or control the military police

16     unit?  There is a big difference there.

17        A.   This is what it says.  I can't change that.  I don't know it.  I

18     can't change anything, if that's what it says here.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what control, in professional terms, is,

20     and does it differ from the function of command when we talk about the

21     military police?

22        A.   The terms "control" and "command," I don't know what the two mean

23     exactly.  I don't know the difference between "control" and "command."  I

24     don't know whether the two are the same or not.  When it says, with

25     respect to speciality, the officer in charge of the security body of the

Page 16038

 1     unit or institution within whose establishment the military police unit

 2     is placed controls the military police, I can't explain that.  I don't

 3     know the difference between "control" and "command."

 4        Q.   Since you're not in a position to do that, can you look at bullet

 5     points 12 and 13, and can you conclude who is it who commands, on the one

 6     hand, and who is it who controls?

 7        A.   I can only read what it says in here.  According to bullet point

 8     12, it says here that:

 9             "The officer in charge of the military unit and institution

10     within whose establishment the military police unit is placed or to which

11     it is attached commands and controls ..."

12             And then in bullet point 13, it just mentions controls.  These

13     two things obviously are different.  There is a distinction, but I'm not

14     aware of it.  It's very difficult for me to make a distinction between

15     bullet point 12 and bullet point 13.  Really, I'm not in a position to do

16     that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  My question is this:  Bullet point 12 speaks about

18     command.  Does bullet point 13 speak only about professional control or

19     does it also speak about command?  Thank you.

20        A.   Bullet point 12 speaks about command and control, whereas bullet

21     point 13 speaks about specialty and professional control, as far as I can

22     tell.

23        Q.   Thank you.  There's no need to belabour that point.  Let's look

24     at P1111, which is a document that you, yourself, drew up in your

25     previous testimony.

Page 16039

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up P1111.

 2     Thank you.

 3             Can this be zoomed in a little.  Thank you.  Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did you draw this up yourself, this schematic?

 6        A.   No, I didn't draw it up.  It was readily available and made

 7     available to me.  I only entered the names of people who discharged

 8     certain duties.  Somebody asked me to do that.

 9        Q.   And is this schematic correct or not?

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't answer whether it is

12     correct or not.  This was given to me to fill out.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And now look at where it says "Staff" and then "Chief of Staff."

15     And you indicate that the Military Police Company was also under his

16     command.  Is that correct or not?

17        A.   I did not understand you.  What are you asking me?  Below the

18     "Chief of Staff," what?

19        Q.   Yes.  Do you see a list of subordinated assistants, headed by

20     you, and does the second column also display the Military Police Company

21     and so on and so forth?

22        A.   Yes, I can see the "Military Police Company" here, but I'm

23     looking at the following page as well or the other part of the page.

24        Q.   Could you please encircle, in red pen, where you see the

25     "Military Police Company"?  Was it subordinated to the chief of staff or

Page 16040

 1     not?  In other words, is this correct or not?

 2        A.   I don't know whether this correct or not.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please wait a moment.  The Court Usher will

 4     assist you.

 5             You were asked to encircle the words "Military Police Company."

 6             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]  There in two places, here and

 7     here [indicates].

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Since you have encircled the "Military Police Company" on the

10     right-hand-side, is this your handwriting where it says the "Military

11     Police Company" and "Jasikovac"?

12        A.   Yes, this is my handwriting, and at that moment I thought that

13     that was how things had been.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please put number 1 next to the Cyrillic

15     upper-case "Military Police Company" and number 2 to the same words

16     handwritten by you?

17        A.   [Marks]

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now -- no, no.  No, no.  Can

19     we scroll up to see who signed this schematic?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, this is not possible.  If you move it, you

21     will lose the markings.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can this be admitted?  And then we will move the page.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This marked scheme will be received as an

25     exhibit.

Page 16041

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit P1111 that was marked by

 2     the witness in court shall be assigned Exhibit D295.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would suggest, for the benefit of

 4     the witness, that we have our second break now so that the last session

 5     will be one hour again, and we are now sitting for more than one hour.

 6     I think it's the best time to have the break now, and then you may

 7     continue.

 8             This marking is saved, and we have it in evidence.

 9             We must have our second break now, and we will resume after half

10     an hour at 6.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan.  I see you on your feet.

14             MS. HASAN:  Yes.

15             Your Honours, there's just a preliminary matter before the

16     witness is brought in.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This part will be redacted.  Don't mention the

21     name.

22                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

23             MS. HASAN:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Can we go into private session at

24     this moment?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We go into private session, and the last part

Page 16042

 1     will be redacted.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16043











11  Page 16043 redacted. Private session.















Page 16044

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it that there is no objection by the

13     Prosecution to receive 1D914 into evidence.  It will be received as an

14     Defence exhibit.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D914 shall be

16     assigned Exhibit D296.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And there was another mistake.  When we referred

18     to a list of documents with the previous -- no, with the current witness,

19     I referred to one document which was not previously assigned with a P

20     number and MFI'd.  I referred to the wrong one.  Mr. Registrar should put

21     the correction on the record.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, from the list of MFI'd documents

23     for which the translation was provided, namely, 65 ter document 7411,

24     which was assigned Exhibit P2246, it's still to be marked for

25     identification, pending further authentication by the Chamber.  Thank

Page 16045

 1     you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I hope we have now resolved all problems with

 3     numbering and others.

 4             This witness should be brought in again, please.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Welcome back to the courtroom, sir.  Sorry for

 7     the delay.  We had to deal with some procedural matters again.

 8             Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             Mr. Gajic [as interpreted], please, let's look at P1111 again.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you're right, Mr. Gajic.  The current

13     witness is Mr. Galic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Galic, we're looking at the schematic, and let's keep it as

17     it is.  Let's not move anything until we have explored this in detail.

18             You tied only the battalions to the commander, the

19     Rear Battalion, the Engineers, and the Communications Battalion.

20     Everything else, according to you, was linked with the chief of staff;

21     right?

22        A.   The horizontal line, the "Staff" and the rest, I suppose that

23     this means this is a line that goes all the way to the commander, that

24     everything is linked to the commander and everybody else, because there

25     is a common line.  That's at least what I think.

Page 16046

 1        Q.   And my next question, sir:  Did you also think that the

 2     Military Police Company's linked to the chief of staff?  Is that what you

 3     meant?

 4        A.   It says here that they were linked to the chief of staff.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Was it, indeed, the case?  Was the company linked to

 6     the chief of staff or to the commander, as you just said it yourself?

 7        A.   All units are linked to the commanders.  I've already told you.

 8        Q.   So is this a mistake, then.  Was a mistake made when the

 9     Military Police Company was shown as being linked to the chief of staff?

10     Did that unit report together with you?

11        A.   Did it report together -- what?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please stop.  Pause between question and answer.

13     We didn't get the answer yet.  Please put the question again, and then

14     the witness may answer, but please pause.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Galic, could you please tell us, did you go to morning

17     briefings to the chief of staff or to the commander?  Thank you.

18        A.   To both, both the commander and the chief of staff.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And can you please tell us:  Why did you show the

20     military police as attending briefings in the chief of staff's office?

21     Why did you show them as being subordinated to the chief of staff?

22        A.   General, sir, I don't see a reference to any briefings.  This is

23     not to show how briefings were organised.  I didn't know any better at

24     the moment when I drew this up.  I did it to the best of my abilities at

25     the time according to what I knew.

Page 16047

 1        Q.   Thank you.  When it comes to briefings, are briefings organised

 2     by the superior officers; i.e., does a subordinate report to a superior?

 3        A.   Yes, a subordinate reports to his superior.

 4        Q.   Please, can you tell us:  Who did the commander of the military

 5     police company report to?  Thank you.

 6        A.   I don't know.  I wouldn't know.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Please, let's look at this schematic, at the words

 8     that you added by hand.  You put the Military Police Company as being

 9     linked to the chief of security.  Can you see that in the third vertical

10     column, or the fourth, rather?  Can you tell us whether the chief -- or,

11     rather, whether the Military Police Company can be linked to both the

12     commander and the chief of security?  Thank you.

13        A.   It doesn't appear to be logical in this particular chart, but the

14     idea was the chief of security was someone that the unit was with all the

15     time, and he was with the units, and vice versa.  So that's how it

16     worked.

17        Q.   And what about the chief of security; was he linked to the chief

18     of staff or the commander?  Thank you.

19        A.   Commander.

20        Q.   Thank you.  If the chief of security was linked to the commander,

21     would the military police not have to be linked to the commander too?

22     Thank you.

23        A.   In this variant, I thought the link was to the commander, and

24     then the military police was linked to the commander through the chief of

25     security.

Page 16048

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could he also be linked to the chief of staff and the

 2     commander, according to this chart, the way it looks - thank you - or is

 3     this some sort of mistake?  Thank you.

 4        A.   It's possibly a mistake on account of speed, on account of one's

 5     inability to regulate this over a very short period of time.  So an error

 6     probably occurred.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Please, can you now look at the link between the

 8     commander and the battalions 1 through 8?  The Podrinje Battalion and its

 9     platoons, you can see the division here in the third column and the

10     fourth column, Anti-Aircraft, Light Self-Propelled Artillery Division,

11     Anti-Aircraft, Engineering Company, and this battalion here.  My question

12     is:  Was any unit left out here that was directly linked to the

13     commander, and if so, please tell which one?  Thank you.

14        A.   I can't remember if there is another unit that belongs here not

15     being reflected.  Somebody drew this chart.  Maybe they left something

16     out.  I can't remember.  I can't remember whether there's anything else

17     that should be there.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did you bring this chart along with you when you

19     spoke to Mr. Manning?  Did you draw it right there and then in front of

20     him?  How was it produced?  Somebody wrote something down and then you

21     added to it?  What can you tell the Chamber about how the chart came

22     about, how it was produced?  Thank you.

23        A.   I don't know how the chart was produced, but it was added to

24     during the interview.  More drawings were made and names were added to

25     it, too, but I did not produce this chart myself.

Page 16049

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did you add all these things that are written here in

 2     pen and in the Latinic script?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you add this here, that the Military Police Company was

 5     linked to the chief of security?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Is this your handwriting down towards the bottom of

 8     the chart, just outside the frame where it says "The 21st of September,

 9     2001"?  Thank you.

10        A.   Yes, right after the date.  I don't know whose signature that is.

11        Q.   Does it not say "Mihajlo"?

12        A.   Yes, but right after that, to the right, no, it's not.  I don't

13     know who wrote that.

14        Q.   Would that be Dean Manning initialling the page which you gave to

15     him?

16        A.   I don't know that, I don't know whether he did or not.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Please, sir, can you mark with a number 1 where it

18     says "Military Police Company," part of the organisational chart of the

19     chief of staff, and with a number 2, where you say it was under the chief

20     of security, and with a number 3, mark where it says when you provided

21     this chart with your signature.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the Court Usher, please.

23             Please, number 1 next to "Military Police Company."

24             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And number 2.

Page 16050

 1             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And number 3, where it says when you provided

 3     this chart with your signature.

 4             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 5             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What about your microphone.

 7             Once again, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   What is the number 1 in reference to, and then the number 2, and

11     then the number 3?  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Mr. President, could this please be admitted, the chart as

15     marked, and reflecting the changes made by the witness?  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This marked chart will be received as an exhibit.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1111, marked by the witness in court for

18     the second time today, shall be assigned Exhibit D297.  Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Can you tell us this too, sir, Mr. Galic:  To the best of your

21     knowledge and recollection, would the Military Police Company have to be

22     linked directly to the commander in order to be directly subordinated to

23     him?  Thank you.

24        A.   I'm not sure and I can't say.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we please look at

Page 16051

 1     P1108, in that case, P1108.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at what you said to the investigator when you

 4     spoke to him, where the company should be.  Thank you.

 5             There you go.  That's the interview that you conducted -- or that

 6     Dean Manning conducted with you on the 27th of June, 2002.  That's what

 7     line 3 says, the date.  And in the line 2, it says who conducted the

 8     interview with you.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

10             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think we could have

11     the same version across our screen, because this is a bilingual interview

12     with parts in English and parts in Serbian.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, I see it like you explained it.  And the

14     specific part could be enlarged if you give an indication where you will

15     read from.

16             Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Could we now have page 45, please.  45, that's the page we want

19     to be looking at.  The lower half of page 45 in English, in Serbian.

20             There you go.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   The investigator asks you:

23             "Who did he tell that to?"

24             And you say:

25             "At the officers' briefing, one of the officers' briefings, where

Page 16052

 1     the senior officers were present, he announced his decision, this order

 2     that security, chief of security, would report to his superior but within

 3     the structure of the corps and the Main Staff."

 4             Did you see that?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Yes, I said that, but this was in reference to sending reports to

 6     one's superior command by the brigade command and by the security

 7     officers.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could we please -- you spoke about the instructions;

 9     right?  Let's go back to the instructions to see whether that's what it

10     says.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the third

12     paragraph up from the bottom on the same page.  Thank you.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   The third paragraph from the bottom up, Mihajlo Galic says:

15             "No, no, no, he didn't say that.  He only said that they were

16     responsible for their work to their direct superior in the

17     Supreme Command."

18        A.   This was only in reference to the drafting of the reports for the

19     command, like the previous thing that we looked at, so that's what they

20     were talking about and no other activity.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             Page 46, let's see what you say in the continuation of this same

23     interview.

24             The investigator wanted to clarify some issues with you, who

25     could take manpower from the Military Police Battalion.  Now, he asks

Page 16053

 1     you:

 2             "Does that mean that, for example, the security officers, in case

 3     of need, could use the manpower, take men, vehicles, and anything else

 4     from the brigade without reporting about it or, indeed, consulting the

 5     brigade commander?"

 6             And then you said:

 7             "The last time around on the 21st, I said that the chief of

 8     security had, as his subordinated units, also the military police unit,

 9     and he was to exercise command and control over it."

10             And then the next time you talk, you say:

11             "Through the commander of that unit."

12             And now the investigator is asking you this:

13             "And my question was:  Could he take resources -- could the chief

14     of security take resources from the brigade, use them, and not tell the

15     brigade command?"

16             And you go on to answer:

17             "No, that should not have been the case, with the exception of

18     the military police unit.  The military police, yes; the rest, no.  I

19     assume that is the case, but I'm not sure."

20             Thank you.  Bearing in mind the rules we read, could the security

21     organ take from the military police some officers without telling the

22     commander, since we saw that the commander was in command of the military

23     police when we looked at the military police rules?

24             If so required, we might as well go back to it so you can have

25     another look.  Thank you.

Page 16054

 1        A.   No, no need for that.  I never studied the rules.  I thought it

 2     worked like this.  I thought it worked as I said during the interview.

 3     And that's all I can do, that's the best I can do.  Chief of security of

 4     the Military Police Company, it was just that once, so I believed that

 5     the chief could decide about the manpower.  When an individual led the

 6     unit, then he could have the individual brought over, secured, and so on

 7     and so forth, and that's why I said what I said at the time.  Had I had

 8     the rules, a copy of the rules right in front of me, had I known what I

 9     know now, it probably would have been different.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now that you've read the rules, how would you qualify

11     the situation now?  How should it be different, and who should be the

12     commander of the military police?  Thank you.

13        A.   As I said many times, it's all under the command of the brigade

14     commander.  Well, now the battalion commanders are in charge of their own

15     battalions, the division commander is in charge of their divisions, the

16     military police company, and so on and so forth.  I believe that it was

17     in addition to the chief of security and that he had certain powers, and

18     that he had the authority to command -- or, rather, use -- or, rather,

19     take some of those men for some of those tasks performed by the

20     Military Police Company, and that's all I knew.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Since you know now, can we have D202.  Thank you.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   Rules on the Responsibilities.  Can you please look at the title.

25     It reads "Regulations on the Responsibilities of the Land Army

Page 16055

 1     Corps Command in Peacetime."

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please go to page 3 of

 3     the English and page 4 in the B/C/S.

 4             There, we can see that.  Can we please zoom in.  Thank you.

 5     There.

 6             "Regulations on the Responsibilities of the Land Army

 7     Corps Command in Peacetime."  And then Article 1 reads:

 8             "These regulations prescribe the responsibilities of the Land

 9     Army Corps Command.

10             "According to the regulations, the definition of responsibilities

11     shall comprise the rights, obligations, and scope of work of command

12     organs and officers of these organs in the execution of the stipulated

13     work and tasks."

14             Can you now please look at Article 4 and what it says:

15             "Command organs and their officers shall execute work within the

16     scope of responsibility on the basis of the law and other regulations

17     passed pursuant to the law ..."

18             And then the next page, please:

19             "Documents from the competent levels of command and control, as

20     well as provisions of these regulations --"

21             "Provisions of these regulations," I'm sorry, that was a

22     "regulations."

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   These are regulations; right?

25             And now the third paragraph on page 2 reads:

Page 16056

 1             "Command organs may not transfer tasks in their scope of

 2     responsibility to other command organs, nor may they take on the tasks of

 3     an appropriate organ of a superior or subordinate command, unless they

 4     are specially authorised to do so."

 5             My question is:  We see what the regulations say.  Would he have

 6     been authorised to transfer his right further up or further down, in

 7     keeping with these regulations?  Thank you.

 8        A.   General, sir, I've never studied these rules and regulations.  I

 9     did what I was ordered to do, and that was all.  I was told exactly what

10     to do.  And this is not something that was part of my job.  I don't know

11     this, nor, indeed, did I ever find out about this.  I simply never came

12     across this.  I didn't have a copy of these regulations.  I don't think

13     I've ever set eyes on them, as a matter of fact.  Therefore --

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the same relationship exists in the

15     corps command and in the brigade command?  Is that correct or not?

16        A.   I know nothing about the corps.  I can talk about the brigade.  I

17     really am not familiar with any of the superior units or commands.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Let's look at page 7 in Serbian and page 6 in English.  Thank

20     you.

21             Please zoom in for the benefit of the witness.  Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Let's look at Article 9 of "Special Provisions," where it says

24     "Commander."  Paragraph 2 of "Special Provisions," Article 9 - we can see

25     it in English as well - I quote:

Page 16057

 1             "The commander shall command and control subordinate units and

 2     institutions within the scope of the responsibility he received.  He

 3     shall be responsible to his superior for his work and the situation and

 4     subordinate units and institutions and for proper and timely execution of

 5     work and tasks in the competence of the command organ."

 6             My question is this:  Does this apply to your command as well?

 7     Did your commander command and control subordinated units and

 8     institutions in the brigade within the scope of the responsibility he

 9     received, and did he transfer his responsibility on to others?

10        A.   I really don't know how to answer your question.  How do I

11     analyse this in order to be able to answer your question?  Please, I

12     cannot speak from the level of the brigade commander or the corps

13     commander.  I can't tell you what were their responsibilities, whether

14     they transferred their competences and responsibilities on to their

15     subordinates.  It's a matter unknown to me.  I don't want to get involved

16     in that.  I never knew that.

17        Q.   I'm not asking you this for no reason.  In your statement, you

18     said that competences were transferred on to the security organ, in terms

19     of the military police.  That's what you stated.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 6 -- or, rather,

21     page 7 in English and 8 in Serbian.  Let's look at that.

22             Thank you.  Let's look at page 8 in Serbian and page 7 in

23     English.  Thank you.

24             Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 16058

 1        Q.   We're looking at Article 6 on the page that you're looking at,

 2     and I'm quoting for you.  These are all authorities of the commander:

 3             "Managing the security service, being responsibile for the

 4     security of the command and subordinate units and institutions, and

 5     taking measures on the basis of regulations and his responsibility."

 6             This is Article 9, bullet point 6.

 7             Could your brigade commander transfer his authorities and

 8     responsibilities on to somebody else?  I'm talking about managing the

 9     security service and being responsibile for the security of the command.

10        A.   This is the rule of corps command.  Please don't ask me about

11     transfer of responsibilities.  You're reading articles and rules for

12     corps command.  I've told you already that I know nothing about that.  I

13     had a list of the activities that I was supposed to carry out.  This is

14     just too high up for me.  I can't talk about corps, the Main Staff.  I

15     can't analyse that.  I can't tell you whether somebody had this or that

16     right or responsibility.  I've never come across a thing like this

17     before.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, first of all, no overlap, please.

20     And the second concern I want to mention is:  This witness has now,

21     several times, told you that he is not familiar with these rules, that he

22     can't testify about these rules, he never studied them.  You should focus

23     on those areas of his testimony he is familiar with.  Otherwise, it could

24     be a waste of time.  You will probably receive again and again the same

25     answer.

Page 16059

 1             Please continue.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat his question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within the brigade, I did maintain

 5     the VOB-8 log-book.  I've never seen that in the corps command.  I know

 6     that I did it in brigade, that many others before me and after me did it.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you explain, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, what VOB-8

 9     is?  What does the abbreviation stand for, and what kind of information

10     does VOB-8 contain?

11        A.   This is information for soldiers.  Now, after 15 years, I really

12     can't remember what information it contained.  I know that there was the

13     name, the first and the family name, the military specialty.  Please, you

14     have to understand that I did what I did not because I liked it, but

15     because I had to.

16        Q.   Were you ever duty-bound to send your reports to the corps

17     command about what your organ was doing and what the strength of your

18     unit was based on the information contained in VOB-8?

19        A.   Reports were sent about the strength of the unit regularly

20     according to a schedule which was given to us.

21        Q.   Thank you.  When it comes to your superior commands, did they

22     have the same schematic, the same structure, the same obligations, when

23     it came to the filling out of "VOB-8" box, or did other brigades do it

24     differently?

25        A.   General, sir, I was a member of the Zvornik Brigade.  I know how

Page 16060

 1     things were done, in principle, in my brigade.  And as for the others, I

 2     was never a member of any other brigade.  I could never control how they

 3     did things.  I didn't have an insight into how they did things.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please wait.

 5             Now continue.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did you have to send your reports to the brigade, and did you

 8     have to tally your reports with the reports of other brigades so as to

 9     make them uniform with other brigades and corps?  Thank you.

10        A.   General, sir, we sent reports about the strength of the brigade

11     for our brigade.  How others did it, whether they did it or not, I don't

12     know.  I only know that we sent our reports at the intervals that were

13     requested from us.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you also use all the forms, such as VOB-8, which

15     is a form?  Are they used at the same time in brigades and in corps?  Did

16     you know that?  And in your work, did you have that in mind when you sent

17     your reports?

18        A.   I can only assume that all units had to do that in an identical

19     way, that those VOB forms had to be filled out and contain information on

20     all unit members.  I suppose that that was the case, but I can't be sure.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer.

22             And can we now look at page 10 in Serbian and page 8 in English.

23     Thank you.

24             Article 10 of the same regulations, that's at the very beginning.

25     Can it be zoomed in, please.

Page 16061

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   It says:

 3             "The chief of staff shall replace the commander when the latter

 4     is absent and shall have all rights and duties.  If the commander and the

 5     chief of staff are both absent at the same time, the commander shall be

 6     replaced by the officer assigned on the order of the commander."

 7             My question is this:  You have just told us that Vinko Pandurevic

 8     was absent between the 4th and the 15th, to the best of your

 9     recollection.  Would you say that Article 10 applied, that the chief of

10     staff shall replace the commander when the latter is absent?  So was that

11     the case during the relevant period of time?  Thank you.

12        A.   When the commander was absent, he was replaced by the chief of

13     staff.  When both were absent, as far as I know, it never happened in our

14     brigade.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Is this envisaged by the regulations?  It did not

16     need to happen in your brigade, but could it, for example, happen that

17     one was on sick leave and the other was away on business?  Is there a

18     rule that envisages such a situation?

19        A.   Yes.  I'm looking at Article 10, and I can see that this, indeed,

20     is envisaged.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  And now, while we still have this

23     document on the screen in e-court, can we look at page 30 in English and

24     page 35 in Serbian.  Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 16062

 1        Q.   We are looking at Article 7 of this regulation that deals with

 2     security organ.  Actually, it's Chapter 7.  Article 29 of that chapter

 3     says, and I quote:

 4             "The security organ is a specialised organ of the command for

 5     organising and implementing security measures and undertaking other

 6     specialised work in the field of security that is placed under its

 7     responsibility by special regulations and is, in this regard, responsible

 8     for:

 9             "Uncovering and preventing intelligence and other subversive

10     activities of foreign intelligence ..."

11             And so on and so forth.

12             You can read that for yourself.  You can see everything.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now let's quickly go to

14     paragraph 9 of Article 29.  Could you please quickly show us that bullet

15     point, and then I'll have a question for the witness, where it says:

16             "Expertly directing security organs and the military police in

17     the corps command and units and in other JNA units in the zone of

18     responsibility, organising, directing and co-ordinating their activities,

19     providing assistance, and controlling their work, especially in regard to

20     counter-intelligence work and tasks."

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   And my question is this:  Did you have in mind this, when you

23     said there were exceptions to every rule, or did you have something else

24     in mind?  If the latter is correct, can you please explain, for the

25     benefit of the Trial Chamber, what it was?  Thank you.

Page 16063

 1        A.   What was read to me were the duties of the security organ of the

 2     corps, and I repeat, again and yet again, that I never saw this before, I

 3     never read this before.  I will never have an opportunity to do it, given

 4     my age and everything else.  I can't give you any comment with this

 5     regard.  These are someone's duties, and I can't tell you anything about

 6     it because I don't know anything about this.  The only thing I can do is

 7     just read, and I can tell you I don't know, I'm not familiar, I've never

 8     seen -- whether this was, indeed, the case in the brigade command, I

 9     don't know.  I was never in a security organ, never.

10        Q.   Who was in control of what?

11        A.   Regarding the article you mentioned, there's a lot more of those.

12     I really can't, I'm sorry.  I'm not familiar with the subject-matter.  I

13     find it very difficult to find my way around.  Any further reading of

14     these corps rules and who was in charge of what is really not helping.

15     I'm not familiar with the substance; it's that simple.  I don't know what

16     approach to take when this is read back to me and then you ask me whether

17     this was the case or whether something else was the case.  This wasn't my

18     job.  I'm not familiar with it.  It's very hard for me.  It's very

19     unnatural, if you like.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record, lines 13 and 14 on page 78 are

21     part of the answer of the witness.  That was not the question of

22     Mr. Tolimir.

23             Mr. Tolimir, you have a few minutes left.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Let's look at D294, which was tendered at the beginning of our

Page 16064

 1     conversation, page 7 of that document.

 2             This is page 8 in English, the bottom of the page.  Thank you

 3     very much, Aleksandar.  The end of page 8 in the English.  Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Galic, I'm not angry with you because you don't know the

 6     rules.  But should you not have said that to the investigators and

 7     lawyers when they asked you about the authorities of certain organs that

 8     you weren't familiar with, such as this:  The third entry "Petrusic,"

 9     "Petrusic," "Galic," "Petrusic," "Galic," and then you say -- "Petrusic,"

10     "Galic":

11             "Therefore, we may conclude that in relation to the category of

12     personnel, the company commander was Miomir Jasikovac in July 1995, and

13     his superior officer along the same line, Drago Nikolic,

14     Colonel [as interpreted] Drago Nikolic?"

15             And your answer was:

16             "Yes."

17             And then he goes on --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, just a correction for the record.

19     You said, I quote:

20             "And then you say ..."

21             And then the question was quoted by you, but it was not

22     Witness Galic who said that but Mr. Petrusic, the Defence counsel.  This

23     is a correction to page 79, line 12, at the end of the line.

24             Please continue.

25             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, just one additional correction for the

Page 16065

 1     record.

 2             It says in the English version, at least, that it's Lieutenant

 3     Drago Nikolic, whereas I think the record shows "Colonel Drago Nikolic."

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I see "Lieutenant Drago Nikolic" in the

 5     translation in the English version.

 6             MS. HASAN:  Sorry, I was referring to the current transcript on

 7     LiveNote, where it says, at line 18 of page 79 --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, you are right.  In the document, itself, it

 9     says "Lieutenant Drago Nikolic."  Thank you for the correction.

10             Mr. Tolimir, I think we have to conclude the hearing of today.

11     It's 7.00.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm just asking a question based on

13     this.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Galic, had you been familiar with the rules, would you have

16     answered the same way, the question asked by Attorney Petrusic and

17     earlier by Investigator Manning?

18        A.   I said what I knew.  When I didn't know something, I didn't

19     discuss it.  I said what I knew at the time.

20        Q.   But you go on to say:  "Yes, that's right," which means you

21     answer as if you knew?  Thank you.

22        A.   Because that's what Petrusic told me, the same thing, so that's

23     that.

24        Q.   Just tell us one thing.  Did you -- were you led by his question,

25     and that was why you answered the way you answered, or did you really

Page 16066

 1     believe that it was like that.

 2        A.   I was probably led by the nature of the question, and then I

 3     simply said, Yes, that's right.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Galic.

 5             I wish you a very good rest.  Don't be angry with me.  We'll

 6     continue tomorrow, but you understand I need to ask you all these

 7     questions for the record, because all these documents were admitted as

 8     OTP documents and they constitute evidence in a court of law.  Thank you

 9     very much.

10             Have a nice rest and see you back here tomorrow.  Thank you very

11     much, Mr. Galic.

12             Thank you, everyone.  I'm sorry for continuing for longer than

13     normally required.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             Sir, we have to adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow,

16     in the afternoon, at 2.15 in Courtroom III.

17             We adjourn.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of July,

21                           2011, at 2.15 p.m.