Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17729

 1                           Thursday, 8 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 10.40 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom and to

 6     those listening and visiting the proceedings here in the courtroom.

 7             As you can see, there are only two Judges present.  Judge Nyambe

 8     is not with us at the moment.  For reasons I can't tell you at the

 9     moment, but especially because of the videolink which was established,

10     the remaining Judges decided to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis of our

11     Rules of Procedure and evidence.

12             I know we want to discuss some procedural matters today, but we

13     should do that at the end of today's hearing because of the videolink

14     which was set up.  There were some technical problems, I was told, and

15     therefore we have a certain delay of our proceeding today.

16             I would kindly ask the Registrar to set up the videolink.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  We are -- we have now a

19     connection to another country.  We see on our screen here in the

20     courtroom the face of the protected witness who has to testify today,

21     together with a Court Officer sitting next to him.

22             First I would like to know, do you understand me and do you

23     receive a proper interpretation, sir?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  Please rise and read aloud

Page 17730

 1     the affirmation which is shown to you now by the Court Officer.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I solemnly declare

 3     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS: PW-014

 5                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

 8     yourself comfortable.

 9             You are informed about the proceedings.  You have protection.

10     Your name -- your real name should not be mentioned in these proceedings,

11     and nobody will see your face.

12             First, the Prosecutor, Ms. Hasan, will put questions to you.  And

13     after that, the accused, Mr. Tolimir.

14             Ms. Hasan, you have the floor.

15             MS. HASAN:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning,

16     Your Honour.  Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.

17                           Examination by Ms. Hasan:

18        Q.   Good morning to you, Witness.

19             MS. HASAN:  To begin, could we have the pseudonym sheet

20     65 ter 7520 shown to the witness without being broadcast.

21        Q.   Witness, you will now be shown a piece of paper, and without

22     reading it out loud, could you please confirm that the name that appears

23     underneath PW-014 is your name.

24        A.   Yes, it is my name.

25             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I would offer 65 ter 7520 into

Page 17731

 1     evidence, under seal.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 7520 shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit P2616 under seal.  Thank you.

 5             MS. HASAN:

 6        Q.   Witness, I just want to remind you that there will be some

 7     questions I will ask you that may reveal your identity.  I will only do

 8     so in what we call private session.  This means that nobody outside of

 9     this courtroom will hear what you say.

10             And just a reminder, to me and you, to just speak slowly so the

11     interpreters can interpret what we say.

12             Mr. Witness, have you recently had the opportunity to listen to

13     your testimony that you gave in the Popovic et al. case on the

14     2nd and 3rd of November, 2006?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Was the evidence that you gave in that trial true and accurate to

17     the best of your knowledge?

18        A.   Yes, it was completely truthful and accurate.

19             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I would then offer the admission of

20     his Popovic testimony into evidence.  The under seal version has already

21     been MFI'd with number P2237, and the public version of that transcript

22     has 65 ter number 6510.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Both versions will be received, the first one

24     under seal.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 6501 [sic] shall be

Page 17732

 1     assigned Exhibit P2237, under seal.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask you to check the 65 ter number in the

 3     list.  I have 65 ter 6509.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  For clarification, 65061 -- 6510 had been already

 5     assigned P2237.  1 -- 6509.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you should -- we have many problems on

 7     the transcript now.  Please check again.  I think 65 ter 6509 is that one

 8     which was marked for identification, and it will be now received under

 9     P2237.

10             The other one is we are 6510 and should be given a P number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 6510 shall be assigned

12     Exhibit P2617.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

14             Ms. Hasan, please carry on.

15             MS. HASAN:  I then move to offer in -- the exhibits that were

16     admitted through the witness's testimony in Popovic.  There are a number

17     on the list that already have -- were already admitted as exhibits in

18     this case, so I offer the remaining documents; namely, 65 ter 1373 and

19     1374; 65 ter 1020; and 1021; 65 ter 6511 through to 6515; and 65 ter 3343

20     and 3344.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received and given P numbers by an

22     internal memorandum to save some time.

23             MS. HASAN:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I will --

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, internal memorandum shall be

25     distributed as soon as the numbers have been assigned.  Thank you.

Page 17733

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

 2             MS. HASAN:  Thank you.

 3             And with your permission, I will now read a summary of the

 4     witness's testimony from the Popovic case.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please do so.

 6             MS. HASAN:

 7        Q.   Witness PW-014 resided in the Srebrenica municipality in

 8     July 1995.  He was 16 years old at the time.  Around 9 July, the witness,

 9     along with his father, mother, and siblings, moved to the centre of

10     Srebrenica town to escape the shelling of his home village.  On

11     11 July 1995, the witness, along with his father and brother, decided to

12     follow the crowd in the direction of Tuzla.  His mother and sister left

13     in the direction of Potocari.

14             The witness was situated towards the rear of the column and

15     recalled the shelling and ambushes that took place over the course of

16     11 and 12 July.  He was separated from his father and brother in Buljim.

17     While searching for them, he came across some 50 armed Muslim men and

18     eventually found his father who had been injured during an ambush.  He

19     saw other men who had been shot dead.

20             On 13 July, the witness arrived near an asphalt road.  From

21     there, he heard calls for them to surrender and saw what appeared to be

22     an UNPROFOR personnel carrier and blue helmets.  The soldiers promised

23     safe passage.  After receiving two ultimatums, the witness, along with

24     his brother and father, surrendered.

25             The witness was taken to a meadow.  There, soldiers asked --

Page 17734

 1     sorry, before reaching the meadow, soldiers asked everyone to hand over

 2     money and valuables and to drop their belongings in piles before reaching

 3     Sandici meadow where the witness was detained with approximately 1.000

 4     other men.  He watched as the Bosnian Serb soldiers took men to a

 5     cornfield.  Those men did not return.

 6             That afternoon, on 13 July, the witness was told to fetch water

 7     and distribute it to the other prisoners.  He heard cries from a house as

 8     he passed by it.  A bus carrying women and children arrived at Sandici

 9     meadow and stopped near to where the witness was collecting water.  The

10     driver of the bus told the witness to get some water for him and put it

11     next to the wheel.  While the driver was speaking to some soldiers, the

12     witness got on the bus and hid under some luggage.

13             Early in the morning, the witness reunited with his brother in

14     Dubrava after being transferred there from Kladanj.

15             During his testimony, the witness recalled the identities of

16     various people whom he saw in the column and at Sandici meadow, including

17     his father, whom he saw for the very last time at Sandici meadow.

18             MS. HASAN:  If I may now have P991 played, and this is the

19     Srebrenica trial video.

20        Q.   Witness, you were shown some clips from this video, and you have

21     previously identified various locations and individuals depicted in that

22     video.  I am going to show you a clip that you have seen before.

23             MS. HASAN:  And for that, Mr. President, we will have to go into

24     private session.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session.

Page 17735

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17736

 1                           [Open session]

 2             MS. HASAN:

 3        Q.   Witness, do you see --

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan.

 7             MS. HASAN:

 8        Q.   Witness, do you see the image in front of you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And I'd like to ask you about the person who is to the very left

11     of that image.  Do you recall --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan, we don't see a picture in front of us.

13     Perhaps we have to go to another channel.  I have no idea how to get it.

14             Thank you.  We have it now in e-court.

15             MS. HASAN:

16        Q.   Witness, this is an image taken from the video we just saw, and

17     I'd like to ask you about the person to the very left on that image.  Do

18     you recognise that person?

19        A.   Yes, I know that man personally.  I know his name and I knew him

20     back in Srebrenica.

21        Q.   Can you tell us his name.

22        A.   His name is Almir.

23        Q.   To your knowledge, did Almir survive?

24        A.   When we came to the house, just after this portion shown in the

25     picture, Almir was told to take off his shirt.  And they said to him,

Page 17737

 1     Where did you get that shirt, you mother fucker?  That's what the

 2     soldiers said.  And they left Almir at that house.  He never came to the

 3     meadow.  And I know that Almir was buried this year in Potocari.

 4             MS. HASAN:  May we have 65 ter 3343 shown to the witness.

 5        Q.   Witness, this is an image that you were shown during the Popovic

 6     trial.  Do you recognise the location?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   And do you recall making the red markings that are on this image?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Would you then please orient us using what you have already

11     marked on this image and show us or tell us where it was that you

12     collected water from.

13        A.   Where this house is, looking to the left at the screen, the spot

14     where it says "tank," it's a hundred metres to the left, the place where

15     we drew water.

16        Q.   When you went to collect water, were you the only person to do

17     so?

18        A.   No.  There were others, I believe four boys of my age who also

19     went collect water.

20             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, if we could revert back to private

21     session.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private again.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17738











11 Pages 17738-17740 redacted. Private session.
















Page 17741

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan, at this point in time I would like to

 6     ask you:  You have used two documents, 65 ter 6512, and 65 ter 3343, are

 7     you tendering them?

 8             MS. HASAN:  Yes, Mr. President, they are amongst those that were

 9     shown -- admitted through the witness during Popovic, so they are part of

10     the 65 ter numbers I read out earlier.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  This clarifies the

12     situation.  Please carry on.

13             MS. HASAN:

14        Q.   Let's turn our attention then to, Witness, when you were still in

15     the hills, before you started to hear calls for your surrender.  And I'd

16     like to ask you about those calls.  Do you recall what you were being

17     told, whether it was over the megaphone or otherwise?

18        A.   I remember that they used megaphones.

19        Q.   And can you tell us what it is that they were telling you.

20        A.   Well, you know, there were two ultimatums before we came down to

21     surrender.  The first time, they said, Surrender, nobody will do anything

22     to you.  Resid is here, the former chief from Bratunac.

23             And all that time they were telling us that the blue helmet

24     soldiers from UNPROFOR were there.  "Nothing will happen to you."  We

25     could see the asphalt road from where we were, and we could see an

Page 17742

 1     UN transporter driving by.  I knew it very well from Srebrenica.  And,

 2     yes, we could see blue helmets.  Our impression was that what they were

 3     saying about UNPROFOR was true.  That's why we were sure that UNPROFOR

 4     soldiers were there and that there was a chance that we would stay alive,

 5     that they would not kill us.

 6                           [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

 7             MS. HASAN:

 8        Q.   Witness, thank you very much for testifying once again and for

 9     answering my questions.

10             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, that concludes my direct examination.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

12             Before Mr. Tolimir commences his cross-examination, Judge Mindua

13     has a question.  And after that, we should have an earlier break today.

14             Judge Mindua.

15             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness.  You said that from

16     the place where you were you could observe a UN vehicle and that you

17     could also see several blue helmets down there.  However, when you came

18     down, was it really -- when you surrendered, was that really a UN

19     vehicle?  Were they -- were those really UN soldiers, blue helmets?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did see the UN vehicle and

21     the blue helmets on the asphalt road that we could see from the hilltop

22     where we were.  As we started walking down to the meadow, we were in a

23     state of shock because our first contact with the Serb soldiers revealed

24     that they were the ones wearing the blue helmets and that they wore UN

25     flak jackets.  They were not UNPROFORs.  They only used their gear.  And

Page 17743

 1     the transporter, the Serbs were on the transporter.  They were the ones

 2     who were using it.  I saw some 10 or 15 soldiers who sported the same

 3     gear that UNPROFOR wore in Srebrenica.  We were in a state of total shock

 4     when we came down and when we realised that they were not UNPROFOR

 5     soldiers.  And then we saw that we -- that was just the bait for us, to

 6     lure us down from the forest.

 7             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should have our first break now.

 9             And before we break, I would kindly ask Mr. Tolimir to give us an

10     estimation of the length of his cross-examination.  Are you able to give

11     us your estimate?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  May

13     God's peace reign in this courtroom and may His will be done in these

14     proceedings and not necessarily mine.  I believe that I will need more

15     than one hour, thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             We must have our first break now, and we will resume 10 minutes

18     before 12.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 11.20 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.53 a.m.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As you can see, the Bench is complete now.  We

22     are sitting with three Judges again.

23             Sir, you know now it's the turn of Mr. Tolimir to conduct his

24     cross-examination, and he will put questions to you.

25             Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

Page 17744

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

 2     like to greet everybody in the courtroom, including Judge Nyambe, who has

 3     just joined us.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] I would like to greet the witness - I don't want

 6     to mention his name - and all those who are in the same place where the

 7     witness is.  May today's day complete in keeping with God's will, as well

 8     as the whole trial.

 9             I would like to invite the witness to answer my questions based

10     on what he remembers and knows about the events.

11             Sir, I'm not going to mention your name, but let me tell you that

12     we will talk about your statement.  Under tab 1, 06516 is the number of

13     the exhibit.  We see the statement and now we will look at the third

14     paragraph in the statement, and I will read from it.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is under seal and should not be broadcast.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are waiting for 65 ter 6516, under seal.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct.  Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   We can see this document.  Sir, could you please tell us whether

21     you remember how was decision reached on leaving Srebrenica and

22     separating men from women, the elderly from the able-bodied men, how was

23     a decision reached to start walking over the mountain towards Tuzla?

24     Thank you.

25        A.   The decision for us to start walking across the woods and for my

Page 17745

 1     mother and my sister to go towards Potocari was made exclusively by us.

 2     That was a decision made by ourselves.  I knew that if I were to go to

 3     Potocari that would mean a certain death, and we hoped that if we went

 4     across the forest that there was a good chance for us to stay alive.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us if you made that decision

 6     for your family?  Who was it who made the decision for all the families

 7     in Srebrenica, for women and children to go to Potocari and for the men

 8     to go through the wood?  Can you tell us that?

 9        A.   No, I can't.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Are you saying no because you don't want to tell us?

11     Can you explain how come that all the families were unanimous in their

12     decision?  Was it just a chance happening, or was there a previous

13     decision made at a higher level?

14        A.   I can give you my opinion, only.  I believe that after everything

15     that happened in the course of 1992 and 1993 and the shelling that

16     happened on the 6th of July, we knew what the Serbian Army wanted to do.

17     They wanted to kill us all.  And in my view no smart person would have

18     ever dreamt of heading towards Potocari.  My opinion is that everybody

19     decided for themselves to go through the forest.

20        Q.   Yes, that is your opinion that you share with us now.  However,

21     at the time, what was the decisive factor for all the families to make

22     that decision?  Your father was also a soldier.  You said it yourself.

23     Did somebody tell him to impart that decision on his family?

24        A.   You know, my father was a soldier just on paper.  His name was on

25     records, but he was not an active soldier.  He did not have weapons.  As

Page 17746

 1     I've already told you, he just registered as a member of the BiH Army.

 2     And as for the decision, I can't tell you whether some higher force, as

 3     it were, or higher command decided that, but everybody was afraid and

 4     everybody made their personal decisions or they just followed the

 5     majority.

 6        Q.   In that case, could we please look at the third paragraph in your

 7     statement, where you say, and I quote:

 8             "I was in a group of people that first gathered in the village of

 9     Kazani, in the vicinity of Suceska.  When we reached Buljim, some

10     officers from the Bosnian army tried to organise the column of several

11     thousands of people with different army units leading them."

12             My question to you is this:  In view of the fact that your

13     departure with the military column was organised by army officers, is it

14     possible that army officers conveyed that message to all the families,

15     through soldiers, for family members to go to Potocari and for men and

16     soldiers to go to Susnjari?  Is that a likelihood?  Is this how things

17     may have transpired?

18        A.   I believe that we were focussed on Srebrenica and what was

19     happening in Srebrenica in that moment.  Susnjari, Buljim, are further

20     away from Srebrenica.  When I said this, I meant that there was a

21     subsequent attempt to organise the column, because when we started

22     walking, there was no order among the people.  I believe that they tried

23     to organise us in order to provide for a more efficient passage.  In

24     Srebrenica itself, my opinion is, and I adhere by that opinion, that

25     nobody tried to organise people where they would go and how they would

Page 17747

 1     go.  I believe that all those decisions were made individually.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that in the place where you were lined up

 3     there were members of civilian authorities and military authorities from

 4     Srebrenica?

 5        A.   Yes, I heard that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it possible that they may have reached an

 7     agreement to organise a column that would try to break through across

 8     Baljkovica to the territory under the control of the BiH Army?  Thank

 9     you.

10        A.   I don't know.  I don't know anything about that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Please, did officers separate you and tell you what

12     unit to join, or was it up to you to join any unit you wanted?

13        A.   I really don't know what units those were.  I only know that I

14     was moving with a large group of people.  I was tired.  I fell asleep in

15     the evening on the 11th, and when I woke up on the 12th I was at Buljim.

16     I don't know what had happened in the meantime, whether people were

17     organised into what units.  Speaking from my own perspective, neither me

18     nor my people were ever told what to do, where to go.  We just followed

19     the crowd.

20        Q.   Thank you.  However, on the 8th of March, 1999, when you provided

21     this statement, you stated in the third paragraph, in the last sentence

22     or the last two sentences, this is line 7:

23             "A Bosnian army unit, the Mountain Battalion, led by Ejub Golic,

24     had the task to protect this part of the column of civilians.  There were

25     about fifty armed soldiers among them [as interpreted]."

Page 17748

 1             You were there, and that's why you stated what you stated.  Do

 2     you remember that?

 3        A.   Yes.  I said what I saw at that moment at the place where I was,

 4     and I heard that those people who carried those weapons, about fifty of

 5     them, that it was their task to protect the rear end of the column.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did you observe that they behaved in a military way,

 7     and did they protect the flanks of the column?  Did you see soldiers on

 8     the flanks of the column and at its back?

 9        A.   No, I didn't see them.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let's move on to the 5th paragraph in your statement,

11     where you say:

12             "We went down the hill into a creek, 200 to 300 metres down.

13     Here I saw four or five dead bodies dressed in civilian clothes lying on

14     one side of the track.  My impression was that they had been hit by

15     bullets to the head and chest area.  I had heard firing going on in the

16     area."

17             My question to you is this:  Who could have killed those people?

18     Who could have inflicted such injuries on them, only in the head and in

19     the chest?  Was that done from close range?  Thank you.

20        A.   I suppose that it was from close range.  But that was the initial

21     shock.  That was the horror of the entire situation.  Those were the

22     first images of dead people.  I was in a state of shock.  The first time

23     I smelled blood.  And my conclusion was that they were killed from a very

24     close distance.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's look at tab 7, and under that tab we

Page 17749

 1     will see D270.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, just a question.  You have used the

 3     OTP statement of the witness.  Are you tendering it?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

 5     like to tender the witness's statement into evidence.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 6516 shall be

 8     assigned Exhibit D319 under seal.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And now let us look at D270.  That was provided by a person whose

13     name I am not going to mention because the document is under seal.  If we

14     look at the fifth line of the statement, we -- you will see that it

15     reads:

16             "When we left Srebrenica on 11 July 1995, a shell killed five men

17     in a ditch, but I did not know any of them."

18             My question to you is this:  You followed the same trail, would

19     you say that those men or those bodies that you saw, is it possible that

20     they were killed by a shell, that they were not killed from a rifle and

21     sustained injuries in the head and in the chest?

22        A.   I don't know.  I don't want to speculate.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In that case, tell us, did you see the wounds on the

24     bodies by which you were passing, or did you hear the description from

25     somebody else?

Page 17750

 1        A.   I saw them myself.

 2        Q.   In that case, please tell us:  Did you follow the same trail that

 3     people had walked on previously?  They did not belong to your group; they

 4     belonged to some other groups.  And those dead bodies, did they belong to

 5     your group or to some other groups of people who had passed the same way

 6     before you?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I did not know any of them.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And did you see next to the bodies any eye-witnesses,

 9     somebody who had seen how they were killed, somebody who told you that

10     they were killed with bullets hitting them in the head and in the chest?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Would you say that somebody should have approached

13     the column very close to be able to kill those people by firing in the

14     most sensitive parts of their bodies, in the chest and in the head?

15        A.   I suppose so, yes.  It must have been done from a very close

16     range.  Maybe they were ambushed or something.

17        Q.   Would somebody have informed you not to follow the trail to avoid

18     that same ambush?

19        A.   No.  Nobody knew where other people were going.  The situation

20     was horrendous.  There was shelling, shooting.  I don't see how anybody

21     could convey any information to anybody.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Just a while ago, we saw that Golic, the commander of

23     the Mountain Battalion, was in charge of the safety of civilians.  You

24     said it yourself in the third passage.  Is it possible that he was the

25     one who was supposed to warn you?  He was at the rear of the column and

Page 17751

 1     he was supposed to protect the civilians.  Was it his role to inform you

 2     about any problems that you might encounter on the trail that you were to

 3     follow?

 4        A.   I don't know.  No.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In that case, let's go to the follow paragraph in

 6     your statement, which is paragraph 6.  That's tab 1.  Let's go back to

 7     tab 1, paragraph 6, your statement.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which is now D319.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct.  Let's look at

10     D319.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should not be broadcast.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   In the sixth paragraph.  Now we can see the sixth paragraph,

14     where it says:

15             "I saw seven or eight killed soldiers from the BiH Army, and

16     their throats had been slit."

17             Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   The trail that you followed, did it pass by the creek where you

20     saw some seven or eight dead Bosnian army soldiers with their throats

21     slit?

22        A.   Yeah, the trail that I followed skirted them, and I could see

23     them.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you learn from somebody how they had been killed,

25     how the BiH Army soldiers had been killed, or did you make your own

Page 17752

 1     inferences?

 2        A.   No, I did not learn the truth.  Nobody informed me how they had

 3     died.  I just saw them.

 4        Q.   Do you remember whether they still had uniforms on which is what

 5     made you conclude that they were soldiers?  If they did wear uniforms,

 6     what kind of uniforms were those?  Did they also wear weapons?

 7        A.   Yes, they were in uniforms, which made me conclude that they were

 8     soldiers.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And were there weapons on their bodies or next to

10     their bodies?  Perhaps grenades, rifles?

11        A.   You know, when there are bullets flying above you and when people

12     are running to save their lives, there is hardly time to look at the

13     details and to see who wore what or what was next to the bodies.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You said that their throats had been cut.  For

15     somebody to cut their throats, for somebody to slit their throats, would

16     you say that they should have come very close, that they should have

17     touched them, that they should have wrestled them?  What would you say?

18        A.   I don't know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Okay, since you don't know, let's go to my next

20     question.  But before that:  Does that mean that there was fighting along

21     the entire trail that you moved on and that those five or six bodies were

22     the first bodies that you saw?  Was there fighting, head-to-head

23     fighting, as it were?

24        A.   I don't know.  I can't speculate.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 17753

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please pause and for the sake of the

 2     interpreters so that they can finish their interpretation.

 3             Now your next question, please.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Witness, let's look at paragraph 7 in your statement, and I will

 7     quote from it.  I will read just the penultimate sentence, where you say

 8     that:

 9             "Some shells fell very close and the shells for fired from

10     hand-held rocket-launchers.  I had learned about weapons during high

11     school."

12             My question to you is this:  In order for somebody to fire a

13     shell from a hand-held rocket-launcher, does that person have to see the

14     target in order to be able to fire at it?

15        A.   I don't see anything strange there.  Your soldiers were there and

16     there were moments when we could hear them shouting to each other.  They

17     could easily throw grenades on us.  They were very close to us.

18        Q.   Since you say you learned about weapons in school, can you tell

19     us the range of a hand-held launcher?  Does there have to be visibility

20     for the person holding the launcher?

21        A.   I am no expert in weapons.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Would it have been more logical for the shooter to

23     shoot at you from a greater distance than coming close to you to have

24     visibility with a hand-held launcher?

25        A.   There was no need.  Your soldiers never exposed themselves to any

Page 17754

 1     danger, because there was no one armed in that column.  If we had been

 2     armed, I would have said, Okay, it's legitimate to keep at a greater

 3     distance.  From where I was, I saw around me only civilians at the time

 4     when the Serbian troops were shooting at us.  They could choose whether

 5     to shoot or to throw grenades.

 6        Q.   I wouldn't like to go back to anything we've already dealt with,

 7     but let me remind you that you were scattered among the units of the

 8     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Thank you.  But why did you state that, then, in the third

11     paragraph of your statement, in the sixth, seventh, eight, and ninth

12     line?

13        A.   That is a misinterpretation, a misrepresentation.  I said I was

14     towards the tail of the column, which doesn't mean that when we were

15     moving from Buljim along those brooks, across these hillocks, there was

16     anyone armed around me.  I didn't see anyone armed around me, nor could I

17     see where the firing was coming from, where your soldiers were.  You must

18     be misreading my statement.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I jump in at this point.

20             Sir, I would like to read the specific sentence to you again:

21             "There were about fifty armed soldiers among us."

22             Can you tell us where you have seen these 50 armed soldiers?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them at Buljim, at Buljim.

24     Later on I don't know where they went.  I didn't see them in the column

25     again, none of those armed soldiers.

Page 17755

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And do you recall that in paragraph 3, line 2, you

 3     stated:

 4             "When we got to Buljim, some officers of the Bosnian army tried

 5     to organise a column of several thousand people led by several army

 6     units."

 7             Is that again a misreading?  That's what you stated.

 8        A.   That's what I stated, correct.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell the Trial Chamber, was it indeed the

10     case, as you stated it, or was it different?

11        A.   That's not the way it was.  I emphasize again:  I was only

12     following the bulk of the people, and I didn't see again any of those

13     armed units all the way to Sandici.  I didn't see anyone firing back.  I

14     did not see any organising at all.  I'm just telling you what I saw.

15        Q.   But in your statement you said you saw seven to eight dead

16     soldiers of the BH army lying with their throats cut in the low grass.

17     That's what you describe in paragraph 6 of your statement.  Were they

18     armed soldiers?  Were they soldiers at all?

19        A.   They had uniforms on; that's why I called them soldiers.  But

20     they had no weapons.  We saw them lying in the grass with their throats

21     cut.  It was hot.  We could smell the blood.  That's what I stated.

22        Q.   Let us look at paragraph 9 of your statement, lines 1 through 6.

23     I will read it all out, because we're going to discuss it:

24             "However, suddenly we saw -- we heard a strange noise like a

25     strong gust of wind.  We realised we were ambushed, encircled by the

Page 17756

 1     Bosnian Serb army.  They started shooting from all sides, from hand-held

 2     weapons, and they started throwing grenades.  We saw many people get

 3     killed, but I don't know how many.  I decided that we should try to break

 4     out of the encirclement and try to get to Kravica.  We managed, and I was

 5     helping my father.  We got to the top of a hillock when we still heard

 6     the shooting.  It was dark by that time."

 7             My question is:  Can you remember any more details that could

 8     help the Trial Chamber, together with the statements of other

 9     eye-witnesses, which locations that was, and whether it's the same event

10     that you are talking about?  Do you have any more details to provide?

11        A.   The only detail I can give you about that is that there was a

12     mass of people, really a lot of people - I can't tell how many; I don't

13     want to speculate - at the time when the shooting started from all sides.

14     That something I have flashbacks about to this day.  When you see people

15     being shot, when a bullet grazes your face, burning your skin without

16     actually hitting you, and when you manage to get away unscathed and get

17     to the top of that hillock I mentioned in the statement, and when we were

18     still alive at nightfall, and when we realised that we had been ambushed,

19     and when your soldiers got there -- I'll tell you one detail I hadn't

20     mentioned many times because it's shocking, and when from that distance

21     someone saying, "Take your underpants off.  Fuck your balija mother,"

22     that's the detail that tells me it was an ambush and many, many, people

23     got there -- many, many people got killed there.

24        Q.   [No interpretation]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't receive interpretation at the moment.

Page 17757

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Were you in shock and that's why you don't want to speculate

 4     about the number?  You don't want to give a number that's lower or higher

 5     than the actual number; is that why you did not tell us the exact number

 6     of people?

 7        A.   I can only say it was a mass of people.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  In that case, since you can't determine how many, I

 9     would like to read to you from one statement.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab number 5, D268.  We will not

11     say the name of the person who gave this statement, but we'll quote from

12     the last paragraph, the second half of this paragraph.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So I'm not going to mention name.  This person told us later that

15     during the withdrawal of 285th and 282nd Brigades, sometime around 1000

16     hours --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters do not have that page on the

18     screen anymore.

19             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Tolimir be asked to repeat this

21     passage?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters had some

23     difficulties to follow because the relevant page disappeared from the

24     screen at that moment.  Please repeat the last part of your question.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will repeat.

Page 17758

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   "Sometime around 1000 hours on the same day, a Chetnik

 3     paramilitary unit opened strong artillery fire on other -- on the

 4     remaining brigades and civilian population that happened to be in Buljim,

 5     where," according to his statement, "around 1.000 soldiers and civilians

 6     were killed.  The shelling was from anti-aircraft weapons, Pragas,

 7     zoljas, and RPGs."

 8             Based on this passage from this eye-witness, can you determine

 9     whether it was the same incident, whether it indeed happened that way,

10     the horrible way that he describes?

11        A.   I'm not interested in the details provided by others.  I'm here

12     to tell you about what I personally experienced and saw.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I only wanted to refresh your memory, because you

14     didn't say anything about that, and to try to determine the location.  Do

15     you know where that happened and the name of that location so the

16     Trial Chamber can have an idea where the column was attacked?

17        A.   I think Kamenica.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Is that Pobudjanska Kamenica, or some other Kamenica,

19     maybe the Zvornik Kamenica?

20        A.   I don't know.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Please, since you said that you fell asleep on that

22     spot and you couldn't find your father and brother, you found them only

23     later, can you tell us perhaps whether they told you how this ambush had

24     occurred, along with the other circumstances that you were unable to

25     describe in your statement?

Page 17759

 1        A.   [Microphone not activated]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  There is no sound from the witness.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please stop for a moment.  We didn't hear the

 5     answer of the witness.  It was not heard and not interpreted and not

 6     recorded.  I would kindly ask the witness to repeat his answer.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Tolimir.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Have you spoken to your brother and father

12     at all about how it had come about that you were separated while you fell

13     asleep and how come they left you there?  Have you ever discussed it with

14     them?

15        A.   How can you speak to a father whose whereabouts I never learned?

16     He was never identified, even, and I didn't speak about it to my brother.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at page 3 of your statement, where

18     you say:

19             "After a while --"

20             Page 3.  That's the same statement of this witness, page 3, first

21     paragraph.

22             "After some time --"

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, first you said page 3 of your

24     statement.  Now you say statement of this witness.  Are you now referring

25     to D268?

Page 17760

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D319.  I stressed page 3.  It's

 2     page 2 in English.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   "After a while, things were quiet again.  I found my brother, and

 6     then I fell asleep again.  When I woke up, it was already in daytime.  I

 7     couldn't find my brother or father.  There were about 15 dead bodies

 8     lying there, in civilian clothes, some of them had their throats cut and

 9     some of the bodies were cut into two or in fragments, blasted to

10     fragments.  From the stench and the sight, I started throwing up.  I was

11     terrified and ran away."

12             Tell me, is it a different location now?  Did you run away to

13     that hillock, fell asleep, and then woke up in a different place where

14     you saw this?  Can you tell us something more about this location?

15        A.   I can't tell you anything about this in particular.  Nothing new.

16     I stand by what I said.

17        Q.   Thank you.  We are still on D319, paragraph 2 of your statement.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which is under seal and should not be broadcast.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In Serbian it's page 3.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   "Sometime later I came across another group of people, and we

22     continued along the track made by those who had passed ahead of us.

23     There I found my father and brother again.  We heard the Serbs calling

24     for us to surrender on their megaphones."

25             At this location, did you find out from your brother or father

Page 17761

 1     how come that you kept falling asleep and then became reunited with them

 2     when such horrible things were going on?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   After leaving Srebrenica, when you came to Dubrava, and later,

 8     did you discuss the events in Srebrenica with your brother, and did he

 9     tell what had happened on the 13th of July around 1.30 p.m. while you

10     were sleeping and they had already left and you were unable to find them?

11        A.   No, I don't like to talk about it.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In that case, let us look at tab 2, statement 5933.

13     Page 3 in Serbian, paragraph 3.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The number is P933.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan.

17             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, this statement is not under seal, but

18     it's probably, out of an abundance of caution, better to not broadcast

19     it.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And should not be broadcast.  Thank you.

21             Mr. Tolimir.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I am quoting from paragraph 3, that's page 5 in English.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Aleksandar.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 17762

 1        Q.   Quoting from what your brother said:

 2             "After that incident, around 0400 hours, from a distance of about

 3     500 metres, Serbs called us on their megaphones to surrender.  We

 4     lingered for a while, and then the young man who had opened fire on those

 5     men who were supposedly Serbs gave me a rifle and told me and another

 6     young man to go up to the hill and check if there were Serbs around.

 7     Suddenly, we were told to stop and someone asked us where we were headed.

 8     We told them we were from Srebrenica, and they replied they were members

 9     from a mountain battalion of the Bosnian army.  When we approached them,

10     I recognised one man from this battalion.  Actually, he was a distant

11     cousin of mine," I won't read out the name, "I don't know his last name.

12     He was a messenger this battalion, and I told him about the shooting

13     incident.  And then this man," whose name I'm not going to read out,

14     "confirmed that the three men were from their -- his unit and told us to

15     go back and inform the others about this."

16             Does your cousin say here, in line 6, those who were supposedly

17     Serbs; does it mean that he doubted they were Serbs?  And later, in

18     lines 9 and 10, we see that he found those were actually members of a

19     mountain battalion who was supposed to protect you.  Can you tell us, is

20     it possible that at this location described by your cousin you were shot

21     at by a unit of that mountain battalion holding themselves out to be

22     Serbs, and they even told you to withdraw?

23        A.   Only if that mountain battalion was driving an UNPROFOR APC and

24     wearing UNPROFOR uniforms and calling us balija mother fuckers, only in

25     that case it could be true.  But I doubt it.

Page 17763

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would like to clarify one matter.

 2     The statement the witness could see and read, and you have quoted from,

 3     Mr. Tolimir, is this statement from your brother or your cousin?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, sorry, I'm asking the witness.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that this is

 7     my brother's statement.  I never saw it before.  He personally did not

 8     tell me anything about this statement either.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asking you that because Mr. Tolimir used the

10     term "your cousin," but at the beginning, "your brother."

11             Ms. Hasan.

12             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, and there seems to be -- I mean, to be

13     fair to the witness, the passage that General Tolimir read out is

14     referring to a time when this witness was not with his brother, as can be

15     seen from paragraph 5, on page 3 of the English version, where he says

16     that he later joined -- found his brother and joined him.  And the

17     witness was seemingly answering the question with an understanding that

18     this incident that the brother describes in the paragraph that

19     General Tolimir read is, in fact, an event that took place later when he

20     was present and heard the calls to surrender.

21             So we're talking about two different things, and I think it's

22     confusing the witness.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on, but bear that in

24     mind if that is correct what Ms. Hasan said.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  In my

Page 17764

 1     previous questions I asked the witness whether it was possible that they

 2     were shot at by soldiers from the Brcko Battalion.  He said, "No."

 3     Later, I read a part of his brother's statement where it says that they

 4     were shot at by the Brcko Mountain Battalion.

 5             Let's look at P933, second page, second paragraph, or the

 6     paragraph before the one that we have just read.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Where it says, and I quote -- I'm quoting from paragraph 3 of the

 9     witness's brother's statement, where it says:

10             "A young man in my group --"

11             I apologise.  I didn't say that that document was under tab 2.

12     And I repeat my quote:

13             "A young man in my group, I don't know his name, told me to lie

14     down.  He had a machine-gun and wanted to fire upon those three men who

15     he said were Chetniks.  He opened fire, he killed the two in uniform and

16     hit the third one with a first aid kit in the knee.  He remained lying in

17     the grass next to a creek.  He asked for help.  He said that he was a

18     Muslim but nobody believed him.  We left him in the area."

19             And later on, I would like to say that in the third paragraph of

20     your brother's statement we saw that your cousin told your brother that

21     those soldiers were from the Mountain Battalion of the Bosnian Army.

22     That's what he stated in line 6, paragraph 3.

23             I'm asking you this:  Does it transpire from this that the

24     soldier who had an automatic rifle and who said to your brother to lie

25     down opened fire and killed the Bosnian army soldier, having mistaken him

Page 17765

 1     for a Serb?  Is that what it says in your brother's statement?

 2        A.   I don't know, and I'm not interested.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I know that you're not interested in this; however,

 4     please, did people open fire at each other?  Did they kill each other?

 5     And did you see and hear that while you were moving through the forest

 6     before you surrendered?

 7        A.   People went mad.  I saw a case when a man through a grenade and

 8     killed a man in his vicinity, but that was not happening on a large-scale

 9     basis.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Where were you when things were happening as

11     described by your brother in his statement in passages 2 and 3, where he

12     says that Muslims were the ones who were killing BiH Army soldiers?

13        A.   I did not have a measuring tape.  I could not know where I was,

14     at what distance.  I don't know where he was, what he was doing.  I told

15     you that I lost him on two or three occasions, and I don't know what he

16     saw, what he did.  If you have questions for me about what I saw, I'm

17     here.

18        Q.   Yes, I do have a question for you.  Let's go to paragraph 4 in

19     your brother's statement, where it says:

20             "When I returned to the young man, he had the automatic rifle and

21     I told him that our soldiers were in the area and I gave the rifle back

22     to him.  He told us that we could not join them as we did not have any

23     weapons."

24             My question:  Does it transpire from this part of your brother's

25     statement that he had warned the soldier who had given him the rifle that

Page 17766

 1     he was actually killing "our own men," and returned the rifle to him?

 2     Did -- would you agree that your brother saw that this man in his group

 3     was killing BiH Army soldiers?

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan.

 6             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, there's been a line of questions now

 7     about passages from his brother's statement, when clearly the witness was

 8     not present.  If it's simply to confirm what the document said,

 9     respectively, I submit, there's not much value in doing so, in just

10     reading out passages and seeing whether the witness is confirming what

11     the brother has said in this statement.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is really a question whether this kind of

13     question is helping to find out the truth, that's true, especially

14     because P933 is already in evidence.  On the other hand, Mr. Tolimir is

15     entitled to put these parts of this statement to the witness if he is

16     able to confirm the content or not, and he receives the answers the

17     witness could give him.

18             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   In order to arrive at the absolute truth, I will put another

22     question to this witness.

23             In the last part of this fourth paragraph, your brother says:

24             "He told us that we could not join them as we did not have any

25     weapons."

Page 17767

 1             My question is this:  Did the BiH Army soldiers have a special

 2     mission or a special task, given the fact that they did not allow those

 3     without weapons to join them?  Thank you.

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Did they need men with weapons only because they had been given

 9     the task to kill people, in view of the fact that civilians were an

10     integral part of the column?

11        A.   Could you please repeat your question?  Your microphone was off.

12        Q.   Since you were deployed as civilians with the Mountain Battalion,

13     how come that all of a sudden they told people that they could not allow

14     civilians without weapons to join them, although their task was to

15     protect civilians?  Was that because their task was to kill people and

16     that's why they only needed men with weapons?  Thank you.

17        A.   First of all, I was not deployed anywhere with any unit.  And as

18     for who killed whom, we shouldn't be the judge of that.  We have the

19     Judges to be the judge of that.  And if you are trying to put to me that

20     I saw members of the Mountain Battalion in Buljim and if you are mixing

21     up my words with the words of my brother, I respectfully don't agree with

22     that.

23        Q.   I'm not mixing things up.  I'm just quoting from your statement

24     where you said that you were lined up by BiH Army officers, that you were

25     lined up by them to form a column.  You said that on page 1 of your

Page 17768

 1     statement, D319, line 2 and 3.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is your question in relation to this?

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   My question is this:  Why were you mixed up with the military

 5     column?  Why did Bosnian army civilians deploy you with a military column

 6     and you were civilians?

 7        A.   There was no military column.  Let me repeat:  Buljim and

 8     Kamenica and Sandici, where we were, are not one and the same thing.  If

 9     there were some attempts to organise a column in Buljim and

10     Jaglic [phoen], and that column consisted of civilians - I would like to

11     emphasize that - I don't see what kind of a military column are you

12     talking about.  Who was it who made up a military column?  I don't see

13     much point in your question.  What you are implying?  What you are trying

14     to say?

15        Q.   Thank you.  You stated, in lines 8 and 9, There were about fifty

16     armed soldiers among us.  This means that you were mixed up with the

17     soldiers of the Mountain Battalion; am I right or not?

18        A.   There were fifty armed soldiers in Buljim, but that does not mean

19     that those soldiers walked with any of the groups or with me, personally,

20     from then on.  I only stated that I had seen them in Buljim and never

21     again after that.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I have just quoted from a statement, and I don't want

23     to mention the name of the soldier who provided the statement.  In that

24     statement, the soldier says, and this statement is D --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Tolimir repeat the number, please.

Page 17769

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please repeat the number again of this statement.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab 5, D268.  Paragraph 3.  We will

 3     not mention any names.  In paragraph 3 of this statement, line 11.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is the third line from the bottom, where it says:

 6             "On that occasion, the 285th Brigade set out first, and it was

 7     followed by the 282nd.  And his father and his brother were with the

 8     latter brigade, and I don't know about -- anything about their fate from

 9     then on.  Enver told us further on that when the 285th and the

10     282nd Brigades ..." and so on and so forth.

11             My question is this:  Do other witnesses speak about the brigades

12     and where they were deployed, were they were mixed up?  Can you conclude

13     that from this statement?

14        A.   I don't want to interpret other peoples' statements.

15        Q.   Thank you.  In that case, let's look at tab 9.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to clarify if we have reason to

17     redact page 40, line 19, because there was a name mentioned.  I think we

18     should.  I see agreement by the parties.  We will do that.

19             And please wait for the next document, and then put the next

20     question to the witness.

21             Tab 9 is the document D180.

22             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan.

24             MS. HASAN:  This document is not under seal and I don't see the

25     basis for the redaction.  Perhaps we need to go into private session.

Page 17770

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We go, for a short time, into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

17     you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

19             Ms. Hasan, I see you on your feet.

20             MS. HASAN:  I'm very sorry, Mr. President.  I think we have to go

21     back into private session.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17771











11 Page 17771 redacted. Private session.















Page 17772

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

 3     you.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   And now we see in front of us:  "Handbook on the Law of War for

 9     Armed Forces."  This was published by the International Red Cross.  It

10     brings The Hague and the Geneva Conventions and how they regulate the

11     rules of war.  You said that you were not a military analyst, but let's

12     look at pages 3 and 5, paragraph 56, in the Serbian and English

13     respectively.

14             Now we can see paragraph 56.  Can it be zoomed in.  It's the

15     first paragraph from the top where it says:

16             "A military target remains a military target even if civilian

17     persons are in it.  The civilian persons within such a target or object

18     or its immediate surroundings share the danger to which it is exposed."

19             My question to you is this:  If civilians are mixed up with a

20     military column or in its vicinity, would you say that they also become a

21     military target?  Thank you.

22             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, before --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan.

24             MS. HASAN:  If I may, before the witness answers this question,

25     the witness was 16 years old at the time.  He's not a legal expert nor is

Page 17773

 1     he a military analyst, as he's already said.  I don't see where this

 2     question is going, and I don't think this is an appropriate witness to

 3     put that kind of a question to.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Even if I agree, I would say the witness could

 5     provide us with exactly such an answer.

 6             Sir, are you able to answer this question of Mr. Tolimir?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, I will answer your

 8     question.  In no case was this a legitimate military target.  My answer

 9     is this:  There were no legitimate military targets because there was

10     nobody there but civilians.  If we're talking about the column as it was

11     up to Sandici, under no definition could that be considered a legitimate

12     military target.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Bearing in mind what the Prosecutor said and

15     bearing in mind how old you were, that's why I quoted this.  You said you

16     were not a military expert, but those military officers who mixed you up

17     with a column should have been aware of the rules of war.  Would you

18     agree with that, yes or no, those who lined you up at Buljim and mixed

19     you up with the military column, were they supposed to know what they

20     were doing in accordance with the military rules and laws?

21        A.   I don't know that.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not sure if this is a correct representation

23     of what the witness told us about the soldiers and the composition of the

24     column where he was in.  Please be careful in phrasing your questions.

25             Carry on, please.

Page 17774

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

 2     no further questions about this.  I know that the witness was young and

 3     he was not in a position to know anything about that, but there were

 4     soldiers there and they should have known.

 5             In any way, thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Now, please, could you tell us whether you have recently heard of

 8     a problem or a projection of a film about Srebrenica in Sweden and

 9     Muslims have protested against that.  I don't know where you currently

10     live; that's why I am asking you.

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Do you know that on television in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in

13     the Republika Srpska there was a programme featuring eye-witnesses of the

14     breakthrough and how the massacre happened.  Do you know who Meholjic is?

15     He was one of the eye-witnesses.

16        A.   Meholjic does ring a bell, but I did not see the programme and I

17     did not hear those statements.  I would love to hear them.

18        Q.   Thank you.  In that case, we will now look at the statement of

19     Mr. Meholjic.  It's under tab 3.  It's D277.  The title of the document

20     is: "5.000 Muslim Heads in Exchange for a Military Intervention."  That's

21     an interview with Hakija Meholjic, president of War Presidency of

22     Srebrenica, given to a Bosnian newspaper called "Dani."  I will just

23     quote from the introduction:

24             "In your accusations against the state leadership, and

25     particularly against President Izetbegovic, saying they are partly to

Page 17775

 1     blame for the tragedy in Srebrenica, the departure of the Srebrenica

 2     delegation to Sarajevo in September 1993 for talks about the fate of this

 3     enclave is an inevitable subject."

 4             And then the interviewer asks:

 5             "So you rejected Izetbegovic's offer?"

 6             And Meholjic answers:

 7             "We rejected it without any discussion.  Then he said:  'You

 8     know, I was offered by Clinton in April 1993 (after the fall of Cerska

 9     and Konjevic Polje) that the Chetnik forces should enter Srebrenica,

10     carry out a slaughter of 5.000 Muslims, and then there will be a military

11     intervention.'"

12             My question to you is:  Have you ever heard anything about this?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we turn the page now to look at page 2, where the

15     interviewer asks Mr. Meholjic the following question:

16             "Even after the fall of Srebrenica in 1995, you had occasion to

17     address President Izetbegovic?"

18             Meholjic answers:

19             "At that time, I requested that a state commission be established

20     to inquiry into the responsibility of the international community, the

21     responsibility of the president, the General Staff, the 2nd Corps, and

22     our own responsibility ... people are missing ... and he," meaning

23     President Izetbegovic, "asked me:  'And what would that give me?'"

24             Do you know that this topic was on the table in 1993, in 1994, in

25     1995, even after the fall of Srebrenica and the tragedy in Srebrenica,

Page 17776

 1     and that it's still topical in the public opinion of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina?

 3        A.   In 1993 to 1995, my only thoughts were about finding some food to

 4     survive.  The rest is rubbish.  I didn't care what was going on around.

 5     I know only what happened to me.  I don't care about what Hakija said or

 6     what Clinton said.  I know that my family and many other people were

 7     killed.  There was 67 men in my village before the war, and now we are

 8     four men.  They were all killed.  What Hakija and all these people are

 9     saying, I don't care, and I couldn't have heard it, anyway.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I have to stop you.  The first

11     reason is he was really a boy at that time, 1993; he was 14 years old.  I

12     think you should focus on what you can gain from him and which knowledge

13     he has from his point of view.

14             We must have our second break now.  I would like to ask you how

15     much time you will need for the remainder of your cross-examination, have

16     you any idea?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The

18     witness said that he would like to hear what Meholjic said, so I showed

19     him.  And I have one minute of video footage to show him what Meholjic

20     said, and after that I will move to my final questions.  Thank you.

21             I will need perhaps 15 minutes.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We must have, on technical

23     reasons, our second break now.  But before we break, I have to discuss

24     one matter in private session.  We turn into private session.

25                           [Private session]

Page 17777











11 Page 17777 redacted. Private session.















Page 17778

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 7             Sir, we must have now our second break.  We will resume 5 minutes

 8     before 2.00.  And I hope very much that we are able to finish the

 9     examination of this witness during the next session and that we are able

10     to discuss procedural matters about the further planning of this case.

11             We adjourn and resume 5 minutes before 2.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 2.00 p.m.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session for a moment.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17779

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

Page 17780

 1     you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please continue your

 3     cross-examination.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             Could we now see in e-court 1D952, a clip from a documentary

 6     about Srebrenica shown on Dutch television.  03:00 to 03:30, just

 7     30 seconds.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you able to give us an idea when

10     this was broadcast, by which Dutch television channel?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  This has

12     been shown more than once.  This statement of Meholjic is -- can be found

13     in a hundred different places.  References were made to it during the war

14     and after the war.  But we'll find exactly the provenance and we'll let

15     you know.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   My question for the witness:  You heard what Meholjic stated as

19     an eye-witness participant in the events, who has gone even a longer way

20     than you.  You heard what your brother said about the involvement of the

21     soldiers of the Mountain Battalion in the killing of civilians in the

22     column.  So can you tell us, as an eye-witness, anything about how the

23     soldiers of the Mountain Battalion treated the civilians who were

24     together with you in the column?  And do you know if they were

25     participating in putting into practice this idea of President Clinton of

Page 17781

 1     the USA?

 2        A.   I can only comment on what Meholjic said.  That would be the same

 3     as if someone told me to kill a certain number of Serbs.  Nobody can make

 4     me, force me, do something that I am not willing to do.

 5        Q.   Thank you for the answer.  Let us now move to the last part of

 6     your statement, on page 4, paragraph 4.  It's tab 1, 06516, already

 7     admitted as D319.  I forgot to say this statement has not been admitted.

 8     I should like to tender it.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The statement from tab 2 which

10     is -- in fact, Aleksandar tells me that it has been admitted already.

11             Thank you, Aleksandar.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's now P933 under seal.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In the meantime, you were able to read your own statement,

16     paragraph 4.  I quote:

17             "Then a bus full of women arrived from that direction, as well as

18     a car."

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you wait, please, until we have it on the

20     screen.  You were referring to page 4, paragraph 4.  Are you referring to

21     the B/C/S version or to the English?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Both English and B/C/S, page 4.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Now it is on the screen.  Please

24     carry on.

25             MR.  TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 17782

 1        Q.   I quote:

 2             "The second time I went to get water --"

 3             No, sorry, that's the wrong paragraph.  Paragraph 4.

 4             "Then a bus full of women arrived from the same direction as the

 5     car and stopped next to the fountain.  A driver came out of the car to

 6     get water.  I dropped the jerrycans, sneaked onto the bus, and hid

 7     between the seats.  I put some bags on top of myself."

 8             My question is:  How are you able to get onto the bus when the

 9     driver did not come out nor did the soldiers who were guarding the

10     civilians?  How could you get in unnoticed and without permission when

11     you were getting water for the driver of the car that was escorting the

12     bus?

13        A.   This is obviously a mistake in the recording.  I never said that

14     the driver got out of the car.  Every time I spoke about it, I said

15     explicitly the driver of the bus got out and crossed the road to speak to

16     the soldiers who were standing there.  This must be a mistake in the

17     statement by the person who recorded it.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I think we can clarify the situation.

19             In the English translation, I quote:

20             "The driver came out of the bus to collect water."

21             Which is exactly the same as the witness just said.  In the --

22     when Mr. Tolimir read this part into the transcript, it was interpreted

23     as "came out of the car," which is not the English version.

24             Mr. Gajic.

25             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the two versions

Page 17783

 1     differ in this passage.  The Serbian version says "automobile," not

 2     "bus."  If you look at the relevant paragraph, line 2, you will see the

 3     word is "automobile."  It is written in the same way or in a similar way

 4     as in English.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are absolutely right, but now we have

 6     received the clarification from the witness.  He is referring to the

 7     driver of the bus.

 8             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Sir, you saw where the problem is.  It must be a wrong

12     translation.  I'm asking you:  Were there any soldiers guarding the

13     civilians on that bus in addition to that car that was guarding the bus?

14        A.   I never saw those soldiers.  I saw the driver coming out of the

15     bus.  I didn't see any soldiers on the bus.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 17784

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

14     you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17785

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17786

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21             I would like to thank the witness for having participated in

22     these proceedings.  I wish him all the best.  I wish for all of his

23     wishes to come true.  God be with him.

24             The Defence has no further questions for this witness.  This

25     brings our cross-examination to an end.  Thank you.

Page 17787

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 2             Ms. Hasan, do you have re-examination?

 3             MS. HASAN:  No re-examination, thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this

 5     concludes your examination here in this trial.  The Chamber would like to

 6     thank you that you were able to provide us with your recollection of the

 7     relevant events.  The Chamber, like Mr. Tolimir, wishes you the best for

 8     your future, and now you are free to return to your normal activities.

 9     Thank you very much again that you were able to communicate with us via

10     videolink today.

11             I would like to ask the Registrar who is present there if

12     everything is prepared to conclude the video conference.

13             THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] [Microphone not activated]

14     Your Honours, I hereby confirm that we are ready to conclude.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am very sorry, but we couldn't hear the answer

16     because, I think, this is only in the B/C/S channel.

17             I think this brings everything to an end.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank the Trial Chamber for

19     inviting me to provide my testimony.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  The videolink is concluded.

21                           [Witness stands down via videolink]

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, last week we heard from Mr. Gajic

24     that he will be able to provide us, one week after the conclusion of the

25     testimony of Mr. Butler, with the estimate and your planning for the

Page 17788

 1     further trial, for your Defence case, how much time you will need, and

 2     what are your intentions.  We would be very glad if we could receive now

 3     some more information about your plans.

 4             Mr. Gajic.

 5             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, our estimate is that

 6     we have a lot of time and we believe that we will be able to start

 7     presenting the Defence case after the winter recess.  We still have a lot

 8     of material to review, some of it I have to receive in Belgrade after the

 9     end of the Prosecution case.  Our experts still have a lot of work to do.

10     Unfortunately, Mr. Butler testified very recently and it will take some

11     time to review his testimony.  However, we will do our best to be ready

12     as soon as the winter recess is over.

13             As for the 65 ter list of exhibits that we want to use during the

14     Defence case, we would like to submit that on the eve of the winter

15     recess so as to enable everybody to prepare adequate translations during

16     the winter break.

17             As for the Defence case, don't hold me to my estimate because we

18     still have to establish the number of witnesses, but we believe that we

19     will need about a month to present our case if we continue working four

20     days a week.

21             And I would kindly ask both the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution

22     to take this as a rather realistic estimate, more to the detriment of the

23     Defence than anything else, because there is really a lot of material

24     that we have to review in the meantime.  We have had some problems with

25     translations.  Mr. Tolimir does not speak English.  The transcript is

Page 17789

 1     voluminous, which poses an additional difficulty.  I don't know whether

 2     you believe me when I say that all of our team members are engaged in

 3     translation.  Obviously, we need some time to translate our expert

 4     witnesses' reports, and we will do our best to provide all those

 5     translation before the end of the winter recess.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it, Mr. Gajic, that the whole Defence case

 7     will last one month.  Is that your rough estimation for the moment?

 8             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  Unless we are

 9     not given enough time for preparations, a month.  What we can announce

10     already now, that in addition to the witnesses we will also submit a

11     request to bar -- to tender some of the exhibits from bar table, and

12     this, I believe, will facilitate the entire Defence case.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Nevertheless, I am quite astonished to hear that

14     you are requesting a four-month break for preparation of the Defence

15     case.  This is a rather long period.  If you compare that with other

16     cases in this Tribunal, this is really a rather long time.

17             Does the Prosecution have something to submit in that respect?

18             Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, good afternoon.  Good afternoon,

20     Your Honours.  I think I will largely put that ball back in your court.

21     It is a long time.  The general is mostly representing himself and there

22     is a lot of material, and I'm happy to hear that it's only a one-month

23     Defence case.  But having said that, I would, again, rely on the

24     judgement of the Trial Chamber to do the best thing on this issue.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 17790

 1             Mr. Gajic.

 2             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I hate to object.  You

 3     said four months, but that also includes the winter recess, which starts

 4     in mid-December and ends around mid-January, and we have counted that in.

 5     I could have also told you that we can start on the last day before the

 6     recess.  The recess will be a working time for us, unlike some other

 7     Defence teams which had two Defence counsel, Case Managers, and

 8     investigators.  I have to say that this is the smallest Defence team in

 9     the history of the Tribunal.  There is a lot of work, a lot of

10     translation work; that is why I appeal to you for your understanding.

11             During that time, this legal advisor will have to travel

12     thousands of kilometres, not only between Belgrade and The Hague but also

13     to some other destinations where we will have to interview some potential

14     witnesses and obtain certain documents.  Unfortunately, things take time.

15     When we submit requests for documentation, it also takes time for those

16     documents to be located and to be sent.  And I believe that my learned

17     friends from the Prosecution will understand when I say that when they

18     receive a document, they first have to check what of those things are

19     relevant, what not.  Some of those documents are already ready for me to

20     pick up.  I have to go personally to those locations and to pick up the

21     documentation, but I don't know what I will find there.  Also, we have

22     received some materials pursuant to Rule 68 from the Prosecutor only

23     recently.  We have to review those.  We have not had time to do that.

24             There are some other disclosure as well.  Yesterday, or the day

25     before yesterday, you had an occasion to hear how many documents are

Page 17791

 1     there in the Pecanac collection.  All those are factors that I believe

 2     have to be borne in mind when considering the time required by the

 3     Defence to prepare.  Also, our experts have a lot of things to do.

 4             During the trial, I have slept four hours a night, but I can't

 5     expect the same from our experts and other individuals who are going to

 6     be involved in the preparations for the Defence case.  Obviously, we

 7     would like to prepare our case so that everything runs smoothly without

 8     any glitches or delays.  Obviously, if things are well prepared, that can

 9     be done and we will be able to present all of our Defence case within the

10     scope of one month.

11             One more thing we have had in mind:  When bringing our witnesses

12     in, we don't want to bring those witnesses who will repeat things that

13     already are on file.  We want to provide the Trial Chamber with some new

14     information which may be of a very high relevance for this

15     Trial Chamber's decision.

16             On my internal list, I already have somebody who may be called to

17     provide an adequate testimony, but first I have to check whether this

18     will indeed be of help to the Trial Chamber or whether this will be a

19     repetition of things that are already known.  We don't want to go over

20     the same grounds again.  We would like to provide the Trial Chamber with

21     new things, something that they have not heard before.  We want our

22     experts to provide proper and good analysis.  Unfortunately, all that

23     takes time, and we believe that the time-span which brings us to the end

24     of the winter recess is an adequate period of time.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this.

Page 17792

 1             Before I give the floor, Mr. McCloskey, I would like to confirm

 2     that Mr. Gajic was not sleeping enough during the trial.  One night we

 3     received at 4.00 in the morning and 16 minutes an e-mail from Mr. Gajic,

 4     which I read only in the morning, not during night-time.  This is just a

 5     confirmation of what he just said.

 6             Thank you for your information about your proposed work.  The

 7     Chamber will take that into account, of course.

 8             Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It may be helpful if we can get an estimate on

10     when the experts will be done with their reports, because if there are

11     experts, like a military expert, as suggested by Mr. Gajic, and if they

12     are Serbian, it is, of course, important for us all to have an English

13     translation.  And if it's a lengthy Butler-type report, that will, of

14     course, take some time for CLSS.  And I don't -- a matter of this import,

15     we really will need an English translation prior to cross-examination.

16     So that's just one logistical detail to bear in mind.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  The Chamber will consider the

18     submissions by the parties and the request of the Defence.  We will come

19     back to the parties next week before the close of the Prosecution case.

20             Mr. Gajic, you have the floor again.

21             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to Mr. McCloskey's

22     question I would like to answer by saying that when we requested this

23     period of time to prepare for our Defence case, we have had in mind this

24     concern of his.  Obviously, we would not want to call the witness without

25     giving the Trial Chamber an opportunity to review the material that such

Page 17793

 1     a witness will be discussed in the courtroom.

 2             I will do my best to chase our experts and ask them to finish as

 3     soon as possible, but there are a lot of materials.  They will have a lot

 4     of work.  I repeat, I will try to concentrate on only the most important

 5     and relevant things.  Please rest assured that the time-period that we

 6     have requested is only the minimum time-period that we really need.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, again.  I think we have now everything

 8     on the record, and we will take it into our consideration.

 9             One last matter I just want to raise.  On the 7th of July, last

10     year, 2010, we heard Witness Zlatan Celanovic, and during

11     cross-examination, Mr. Tolimir, you used parts of the book "Chronicles of

12     our Graveyard."  The same day, the Chamber invited the parties to try to

13     find an agreement which parts of this book should be tendered and

14     received into evidence because the translation of the whole book would be

15     a heavy burden for the Translation Unit.  Therefore, I would kindly ask

16     you next week to provide us with your common understanding about the

17     parts of this book which should be translated.  There is no translation

18     yet of the whole book.  Therefore, in order to finalise these things

19     before the close of the Prosecution case, we would be glad if we could

20     receive such a submission next would, too.

21             Thank you very much.  This concludes the hearing of today.  We

22     will resume on Monday, 2.15, in this courtroom.  We adjourn for the week.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.46 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of

25                           September, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.