Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17926

 1                           Thursday, 29 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.44 a.m.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

 7     First of all, our apologies for the delayed start.  We had some technical

 8     problems with the lines set up for the videolink to Belgrade.

 9             As you can see here, only two Judges present.  Judge Nyambe

10     couldn't make it to take part due to another commitment, so the Chamber

11     decided to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

12             I know that we have to deal with some procedural matters, but we

13     should do that at the end of today's hearing and to start with the

14     witness.

15             Sir, the Chamber's grateful that you are able to be in that place

16     where we can have this videolink and that you are able to provide us with

17     your knowledge about certain instances.  I would like to invite you to

18     indicate if you have any medical problems that you need a break, an

19     earlier break, or a rest, please let us know if that is the cases.

20             Now please rise and read aloud the affirmation on the card which

21     is shown to you by Mr. Registrar.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  RAMIZ DUMANJIC

25                           [Witness testified via videolink]

Page 17927

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

 3             Sir, first the Prosecutor is putting questions to you during his

 4     examination-in-chief, followed by Mr. Tolimir during his

 5     cross-examination.

 6             Mr. Elderkin, you have the floor.  Good morning.

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour

 8     Judge Mindua, and to everyone else in the courtroom here.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Elderkin:

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness and the staff over in Sarajevo.

11     Witness, as you know, my name is Rupert Elderkin.  I hope, first, that

12     you're able to hear me clearly, and if at any time you can't hear my

13     questions through interpretation or there's any other problem, then

14     please let us know.

15             I'm going to ask, please, for you to saw your name for the

16     record.

17        A.   Very well.  My name is Ramiz Dumanjic.  I was born in Rogatica in

18     1943 and I lived and worked there as an imam, as a religious cleric in a

19     village up until 1992 --

20        Q.   Mr. Dumanjic, could I ask you to stop for one second?  Excuse me.

21        A.   And because of the fighting that had started there already in

22     April of 1992, I went to Zepa.

23        Q.   Excuse me for a moment, Mr. Dumanjic, please.

24        A.   And I stayed there until 1995.

25        Q.   I wanted to interrupt you because we are going to take the story

Page 17928

 1     of your time in Zepa step-by-step, and it's important for me to be able

 2     to ask you questions for which you can answer each question in turn.  I

 3     know you're keen to get through the story, and we'll go as quickly as

 4     possible, but if you could just answer the questions I ask in that

 5     sequence it will help us here to follow your story and also to have a

 6     good written record of your evidence today.

 7             So I've heard your brief summary of your background and that you

 8     were in Zepa during the wartime period, but I'd like to first ask you:

 9     Do you remember being interviewed and giving a witness statement a couple

10     of months ago at your home in Sarajevo?

11        A.   Yes, I do, of course.

12        Q.   And did you listen as an interpreter read the statement to you by

13     telephone in your own language and you were able to check that the

14     information was correct?

15        A.   Yes, I did.

16        Q.   And did you sign a paper copy of the statement once you had made

17     any corrections?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And were you happy when you signed the statement that the

20     contents were true and accurate?

21        A.   Yes.  Accurate.

22        Q.   Okay.  So if there is anything today you have trouble

23     remembering, then we can show you that statement if it does help you to

24     remember any of the facts.

25             I think you've told us already that you were an imam and that you

Page 17929

 1     grew up in Rogatica before the war.  Can I just confirm that's correct,

 2     please?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   And I think you also said you were living in Rogatica at the

 5     beginning of 1992.

 6        A.   Yes, in a village near Rogatica, to be precise.

 7        Q.   You've also told us that you went to Zepa in April of 1992.  Can

 8     you tell us, please, why you moved to Zepa at that time?

 9        A.   Well, you see, I -- my wife hailed from Zepa, and there was a

10     vacant post for an imam over there, and I went there for work.

11        Q.   Did you stay in Zepa during the period from 1992 onwards?

12        A.   I did.

13        Q.   Was there any reason why you didn't return to your home near

14     Rogatica, having moved to Zepa in April of 1992?

15        A.   But of course there was.  I was unable to return there because of

16     the fighting.  I didn't dare to.

17        Q.   Why didn't you dare to return, sir?  What were you afraid of if

18     you tried to return to the Rogatica area?

19        A.   When exactly do you mean, after the war or during the war?

20        Q.   During the war, sir.

21        A.   I was unable to go back there because of the armed activities

22     taking place there.  There were no people to be an imam to.  The mosque

23     had been destroyed.

24        Q.   While you were in Zepa, where were you living?

25        A.   I lived in a flat belonging to the municipality right next to the

Page 17930

 1     mosque.  It was allocated or set aside for an imam to use.

 2        Q.   And to be clear, just so we can locate that, is that the mosque

 3     in Zepa town itself?

 4        A.   In the very centre of Zepa.

 5        Q.   Sir, were you in the military at any point during your time in

 6     Zepa?

 7        A.   I was not.  I was performing my religious duties and was

 8     therefore free of any war assignments.

 9        Q.   Please could you describe for us what were your religious duties

10     during that period.

11        A.   I performed religious services five times a day.  I also

12     officiated at funerals, and there were quite a few of those, and I was

13     also engaged in religious teaching.  That was all, basically.

14        Q.   When you were in Zepa, did you know a person named Mehmed Hajric?

15        A.   Yes.  He was a colleague of mine.  We worked together.  When

16     Podzeplje fell, where he served, he came to Zepa, and from then on we

17     worked together.

18        Q.   Do you remember around what date Podzeplje fell and Mr. Hajric

19     came to Zepa?

20        A.   Right away in 1992.

21        Q.   Do you know why he left Podzeplje?  Why didn't he just stay

22     living in Podzeplje?

23        A.   Because of combat activities.  All the population from Podzeplje

24     came to Zepa, and he followed.

25        Q.   When you say "all the population from Podzeplje came to Zepa,"

Page 17931

 1     what ethnicity was that population?  Are you talking about Serbs, Bosnian

 2     Muslims, or some other population group?

 3        A.   There were Muslims in Podzeplje.  However, they were driven out

 4     by the Serbian Army and were forced to come over here.

 5        Q.   What were the duties that Mr. Hajric performed while he was an

 6     imam in Zepa?

 7        A.   He was giving religious instruction to children, and we also

 8     performed religious services alternately.  We would take turns for the

 9     Friday prayers.

10        Q.   Do you remember if he performed any work other than his duties as

11     imam?

12        A.   Are we talking about Hajric?

13        Q.   Yes, please.  I'm talking about Mr. Hajric.

14        A.   Later on in 1993, Hajric also worked in the municipality.  It was

15     the war municipality of Zepa.

16        Q.   Do you know if Mr. Hajric is still alive?

17        A.   I didn't understand.

18        Q.   Do you know if Mr. Hajric is alive today?

19        A.   No.  He was killed in Rogatica.

20        Q.   Do you know anything about the circumstances of his death?

21        A.   The only thing I know is that UNPROFOR forces took him over, and

22     from there the Serbian Army took him to the Rogatica camp.  He had even

23     been registered by the Red Cross.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat the last part of his

25     answer, please.

Page 17932

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, could you please repeat the last part of

 2     your answer.  It was not properly understood by the interpreters.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbian Army seized him from

 4     the UNPROFOR personnel and transferred him to the Rogatica camp.  There

 5     he was registered by the Red Cross, and subsequently they killed him

 6     under the pretext that he had attempted to flee, to break away.

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:

 8        Q.   Do you know when this killing took place?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly.  I wasn't a participant in these events.  I

10     heard it from his father.  He told me the story.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment.  We have to interrupt you.  I'm

12     sorry for that.

13             Mr. Gajic.

14             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Tolimir has

15     technical difficulties.  He can't hear either the questions or the

16     answers.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did that -- did that --

18             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Tolimir is receiving only the

19     English interpretation, whereas the Serbian is completely drowned out.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was that the case from the beginning of the

21     testimony of the witness or did it just happen?  Mr. Gajic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry?  Beg your pardon?

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, was that the case from the beginning

24     of the testimony, or did it happen just now?

25             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] It seems that it has been present for

Page 17933

 1     a while, the difficulty.  He hasn't been able to hear the answers to the

 2     questions for a while.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 4             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'm being asked to say something to see if the

 5     interpretation is now coming through.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, first of all, I would like to invite

 7     you -- Mr. Tolimir, are you hearing me?  Do you receive B/C/S

 8     translation?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I am

10     receiving interpretation of your words.  I'm also receiving

11     interpretation of what Mr. Elderkin is saying in part, as well as of that

12     which the witness is saying, but it's pretty muffled.  It's like I'm

13     hearing a muffled version of what is said in the Serbian, whereas I can

14     hear the English perfectly.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we all know the procedure.  Please

16     interrupt again if you have a technical problem or a problem of

17     understanding the B/C/S translation immediately when such a problem

18     occurs again.

19             Let just continue and see if now you are receiving better

20     interpretation and you can hear it better.

21             Mr. Elderkin, just continue and we will see how it works.

22             MR. ELDERKIN:

23        Q.   Mr. Dumanjic, I'm starting again with the question, so please can

24     you indicate if you can hear us also.

25        A.   I can hear you.

Page 17934

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You were just telling us --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Let me just say that I

 3     can't hear the witness.  Thank you.  I can't hear his answers.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have to make sure that Mr. Tolimir understands

 5     the witness and his answers.  If there's a technical problem, we have to

 6     check it first.

 7             Mr. Elderkin, perhaps you'd put the next question -- or again the

 8     same question and try to get a longer answer so we have a chance to check

 9     the technical situation.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  Certainly.

11        Q.   Sir, you've told us that you learnt about Mr. Hajric's fate from

12     his father.  Do you know or have you learnt why Mr. Hajric was killed?

13        A.   The reason must have been the fact that he was an imam.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I still can't hear the witness.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In this case, we should wait until it is set up

16     and the technical equipment is adjusted.  The technician is working on

17     that, Mr. Tolimir.

18             I would like to invite the witness to repeat the last answer.

19     I'm very sorry that we have this technical problem.  This occurs from

20     time to time.  We hope it will be solved very soon.  Please repeat your

21     last answer.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You were asking me why Hajric was

23     killed.  Because he was an imam and a Muslim.  There can be no other

24     reason.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:

Page 17935

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dumanjic.  I'll continue questioning only once we

 2     know that the --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, we have to interrupt for a moment.  If I

 4     go on the B/C/S channel, I can hear the witness, although it is not very

 5     clear, but I can understand that.

 6             The technician is working on this problem.  I hope it will be

 7     resolved very soon.  We have to wait a moment.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So, Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Elderkin, and Mr. Dumanjic,

10     I was told that the system is working better now, and therefore we should

11     check if everything is okay.

12             Mr. Elderkin, please continue.

13             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   Mr. Dumanjic, I would like to ask now if during your time in Zepa

15     you knew a person named Fehim Alispahic?

16        A.   I did.

17        Q.   Please could you tell us who he was.

18        A.   He was an imam from Vlahovici who also came to Zepa and assisted

19     us in our work.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, did you -- did you understand the

21     last answer?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

23     understood it all.  The only thing that was not clear was whether the

24     village was Vlahovici.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vlahovici.  That's in the Visegrad

Page 17936

 1     municipality.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You may continue, Mr. Elderkin.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:

 4        Q.   Sir, do you know where the village of Vlahovici is located in

 5     relation to Zepa?

 6        A.   Well, I know.  I was there once as a young man.  There were

 7     Bajram festivities going on there, so I had an occasion to visit the

 8     place, and I knew that there was a mosque there.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us where it is located?  Is it in Visegrad

10     municipality, Rogatica municipality?  What kind of distance is it from

11     Zepa, please?

12        A.   It's in the municipality of Visegrad, close to Zepa.  Right

13     across the Drina.

14        Q.   Do you know what happened to Mr. Alispahic?

15        A.   Well, the same.  The Serbian Army drove out the villagers of that

16     village, and he joined others in coming to Zepa.

17        Q.   Do you know if he managed to leave Zepa when the enclave fell in

18     1995?

19        A.   Yes, he did manage to leave.  He probably got on a bus.  He was

20     an elderly man.  Several years later, he died.

21        Q.   Sir, did you know during your time in Zepa a person named Jusuf

22     Jusupovic?

23        A.   I did.  He was a madrasa student who also assisted us in our

24     work, particularly in giving religious instruction to children.

25        Q.   Do you know what happened to him when the enclave fell in July of

Page 17937

 1     1995?

 2        A.   He went across the woodland to Sarajevo.  He graduated from a

 3     madrasa there, and later on got an employment with the police force.

 4        Q.   Sir, were you yourself in Zepa in July 1995?  Mr. Dumanjic, were

 5     you in Zepa in July 1995?

 6        A.   Yes, I was, until it fell, and I went across by bus.

 7        Q.   What was the reason why you left Zepa?  Why didn't you carry on

 8     living in Zepa?

 9        A.   You mean afterwards?

10        Q.   Why didn't you --

11        A.   After the end of the war?

12        Q.   At the time in July 1995 when you actually left, what do you

13     think would have happened if you'd stayed living in Zepa after the Serbs

14     took over the enclave?

15        A.   Well, who would I have been an imam to since all the Muslims were

16     driven out of Zepa?

17        Q.   Do you remember -- do you remember on what date you left Zepa?

18        A.   The 27th of June -- or, rather, July 1995.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Dumanjic, I have to interrupt you.  There's a

21     problem again.

22             Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can hear the

24     interpreters translating into English and into B/C/S but very quietly,

25     and I could hardly hear anything just before you said that we had to do

Page 17938

 1     something about that.  So it seems that there is something wrong with the

 2     interpretation.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I will check with the registry.  One moment,

 4     please.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The technician is working on that problem again.

 7     Mr. Tolimir, did you do anything with the -- the technical equipment in

 8     front of you?  Perhaps -- did you do something?  Turn up or turn down the

 9     loudspeaker?  In fact, you shouldn't.

10             Mr. Tolimir, did you receive interpretation of what I have said?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I can hear very good what is

12     being interpreted, but a while ago the sound was not good.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

14             Mr. Elderkin, please continue.

15             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Mr. Dumanjic, let's try and carry on.  Sir, can we just ask you

17     to repeat the date when you said that you left Zepa.  I can see it says

18     first the 27th of June on our screens here and then corrected to July.

19     Could you please repeat that for the record.

20        A.   27th of July, 1995.

21        Q.   Sir, would it help to remind you of the date you gave in the

22     witness statement, because that was one day different.  It was the 26th

23     of July that you told us in that witness statement.  Do you have a very

24     clear memory of that date?

25        A.   Well, it is possible.  I'm not quite sure whether it was the 26th

Page 17939

 1     or the 27th.

 2        Q.   How did you leave Zepa?

 3        A.   I set off on foot through the forest with all the other people.

 4     However, I realised that I wouldn't be able to proceed.  I had very bad

 5     footwear.  And then I saw buses coming to collect the people.  At that

 6     point I decided to join them and to proceed by bus and that's how I

 7     crossed over.

 8        Q.   Could you describe to us the scene when you were getting onto the

 9     bus that you boarded, the people who were around, what you actually did.

10        A.   We boarded the buses.  There was an observer from the United

11     Nations.  Since there was no seat available on the bus, I went to the

12     back of the bus and sat down on my bag.  When we arrived at Boksanica,

13     which is above Zepa, we were stopped there.  Mr. Mladic boarded the bus

14     with a film crew and some other people in his escort, and he introduced

15     himself to us by saying, "Do you know who I am?"  We said, "No."  He

16     said, "My name is General Mladic.  The town -- the time has come for us

17     to get acquainted.  Are there any here able-bodied men?"  We said there

18     weren't.  Then he said, "You go over there and join your people, but I

19     will find them -- you there as well."  I understood that to be a threat

20     addressed to us Muslims in the sense that we had no place at all in

21     Bosnia.

22        Q.   Sir, what was the atmosphere like on the bus among the passengers

23     when General Mladic was speaking to you?

24        A.   Well, it was very difficult.  I was terrified, because I thought

25     that they were going to take me off the bus.  Other people were

Page 17940

 1     frightened too.  However, when Mladic said that, "We're not going to

 2     bring any harm to you.  Go ahead and join your people," we said, "Thank

 3     you, General."

 4             After that, the bus --

 5        Q.   Let me interrupt for a moment, please.

 6        A.   -- proceeded.

 7        Q.   Mr. Dumanjic, did anyone check your identity while you were on

 8     the bus?

 9        A.   Well, no.  And even if they had done that, I had thrown away my

10     identity card, because I feared that I would be taken off once they find

11     out my identity.  So I decided if asked, I would give them a false name

12     and a false date of birth.

13        Q.   Why were you afraid that you would be taken off if those checking

14     your identity found out who you were?  What was the reason for that fear?

15        A.   Because I was an imam.  I know from experience what they did

16     elsewhere, that they particularly made a point of taking imams to camps

17     and killing them.

18        Q.   While you were on the bus and leaving from Zepa town to go up to

19     Boksanica, what did you see as you drove along the road up to Boksanica?

20        A.   I saw houses ablaze.  Some were almost burned completely.  I saw

21     many Serbian soldiers by the road who were rejoicing at us being taken

22     out of Zepa.

23        Q.   Do you know who had set the houses ablaze?

24        A.   The Serb Army.

25        Q.   Now, if you could continue, please, for the journey after

Page 17941

 1     Boksanica.  Where did the bus take you after that?

 2        A.   We reached the so-called Saversko [phoen] then Rogatica.  We saw

 3     Serb civilians gathering hay, and these people really didn't react in any

 4     way whatsoever.  They were just going about their business.  It was

 5     peaceful when we arrived in Rogatica.  Then we went on to Sokolac, and we

 6     had no problems there until we arrived in Han Pijesak.  The bus driver

 7     stopped at the petrol station, claiming that he had a puncture, but that

 8     was not correct.  At that point, a young man boarded the bus, and there

 9     was a man called Omer sitting in the front.  The young man slapped him on

10     the face, shouting, "All these people should be killed."

11             I got terrified at that moment.  However, the Serbian police

12     arrived, and they really acted in a correct and proper way.  They chased

13     away this young man, and we were able to proceed, which we did later on.

14        Q.   Where did you finally get off the bus?

15        A.   There were no more problems.  We headed off to Kladanj, but

16     before that there was a place called Luka.  This is where we disembarked

17     from the buses and proceeded on foot.  However, there were quite a few

18     roadblocks on the way.  At one of the roadblocks, two or three Serbian

19     soldiers approached us.  One of them asked me for money.  He just said,

20     "Uncle, give me some money."  And I said, "I have no money.  I didn't

21     work for money."  He saw that I had a wallet in my pocket.  He took it

22     out and found $10 in it.  This money had been given to me by a man for

23     whom I performed funeral services.  He returned the wallet back to my

24     pocket and said, "Thank you."

25        Q.   Apart from that indent, did you see anything else that you

Page 17942

 1     remember after you got off the bus and started walking?

 2        A.   Yes.  On the way, I was able to see that.  While we were walking,

 3     we saw many dead bodies covered with blankets.

 4        Q.   Sir, did your family also leave Zepa at the end of July of 1995?

 5        A.   They remained behind in Zepa.  They spent the night there and

 6     then joined me on the following day.

 7        Q.   Sir, thank you very much.  I don't have any further questions for

 8     you now, but other people will.

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

11             Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.

12             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.  Witness, on page 15 of

13     today's transcript, line 10 to 12 --

14             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] There's no translation into B/C/S.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  A technical problem.  Would Judge Mindua kindly

16     repeat.

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I'm going to start again.

18             Witness, Witness Dumanjic, on page 15 of today's transcript,

19     lines 10 to 12, you stated that when you were in Boksanica on the bus,

20     you were very afraid because you were an imam and because experience had

21     told you that everywhere else imams were captured and transferred to

22     camps to be killed.

23             The question I wish to put to you is this:  When you were on

24     board that bus at that very moment, had you learned that imams had been

25     killed, or did you learn that after the war?

Page 17943

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I had experience.  I heard on

 2     the radio that the imam of Semizovac had been killed in 1992 alongside

 3     his whole family.  Then there was another case in Visegrad.  In the

 4     village of Okrug, an imam was also killed.  So these are the things that

 5     I heard on the radio.  It was on the news.

 6             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Thank you,

 7     Witness.  Thank you, Mr. Dumanjic.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Dumanjic, I have also a question for you.

 9     You described the situation at the Boksanica check-point when the buses

10     were stopped, and you told us that General Mladic, together with a film

11     team, entered the bus, the bus you were in.  Can you please again tell us

12     what General Mladic told the people on the bus?  What exactly did he say?

13        A.   He identified himself by saying, "I am General Mladic.  The time

14     has come for us to meet."  He inquired whether there were any able-bodied

15     men.  We said there weren't, to which he retorted, "You just proceed and

16     join your people, but rest assured that we are going to find you there as

17     well."

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Dumanjic, now

19     Mr. Tolimir has the opportunity to put questions to you during his

20     cross-examination.

21             Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23     Greetings to all present in the court and in the courtroom in Sarajevo

24     where the witness and the Prosecutor are sitting, as well as a

25     representative of the registry.  I wish peace upon everyone who is

Page 17944

 1     following this broadcast, and I would prefer these proceedings to be

 2     completed in accordance with providence and not in accordance with my

 3     wishes.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dumanjic --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One correction.  Where the witness is situated

 7     there is no Prosecutor.  There is a member of the Registry to assist him,

 8     just for the record.

 9             Now put your question, please.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I stood

11     corrected when I said the representative of the Registry.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, we all are experiencing the same

13     noise.  It disappeared.

14             Now, please try to put your question to the witness, Mr. Tolimir.

15     You have the floor again.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Dumanjic, in order to make thing easier for you, we're going

19     to go chronologically according to the answers that you gave, and I only

20     have a few questions for you.

21             Can you tell me, please, when the Judge asked you about what

22     General Mladic said when he boarded the bus and you said that he wanted

23     to know whether there were any able-bodied men among you, the people on

24     the bus said that there weren't, and then he said, "Go and join your

25     people, we are going to find you."

Page 17945

 1             My question is:  Were any able bodies men on the bus; that is to

 2     say, the people who were subject to military obligation under the law?

 3        A.   No.  No, there were not such people.  There were only elderly

 4     people, women, and children on the bus.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us did you fall into the category

 6     of able-bodied men, because you had an assignment before the war in

 7     Han Pijesak?  Can you tell us again the year in which you were born, and

 8     please wait until everything that I asked you is recorded in the

 9     transcript, because we both speak the same language.

10        A.   I was born in 1943, and I don't know for how long one is subject

11     to military obligation, and I don't know whether I was in that category

12     or not.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Since we speak the same language, I asked you to wait

14     a little until I have finished my question, and I shall do the same for

15     you.  This will allow the court reporter to record everything in the

16     transcript, the question and the answer.

17        A.   All right.  I understand.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Chamber how old were you in 1995,

19     since you said you were born in 1943?  Thank you.

20        A.   1943.  Well, you can do the arithmetic yourself.  I can't be

21     bothered.  I am an ill man.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please once again make a pause after my

23     question so that everything can be properly recorded, because otherwise

24     we have overlapping between questions and answers.

25        A.   I apologise.  This is the first time I'm doing this, and I'm not

Page 17946

 1     very experienced.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I sometimes make the same mistakes as well.  All

 3     right.  Now the interpretation is finished.

 4             Can you tell us, please, were people of 52 years of age, which

 5     was your age when you left Zepa, were they conscripts and were they

 6     subject to respond to military according to the laws of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina and also of Republika Srpska?  Do you know how these

 8     issues were regulated?

 9        A.   I don't know what the provisions of the law were.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Excuse me for asking you this.  I think you would

11     have known this, because you were a conscript.

12        A.   Yes, but before the war.  But a few years before the war I was

13     relieved of that obligation.

14        Q.   Please, on page 4 of today's transcript, line 14, Mr. Elderkin,

15     the Prosecutor, asked you why you didn't go back to Rogatica from Zepa.

16     Before that, you said that you went to Zepa to take the vacancy of the

17     imam that was open there and that there was another reason which was that

18     your wife was originally from Zepa.

19        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I went there because there was a vacancy.

20        Q.   Thank you.  My question is the following:  If you took the job of

21     a religious person in Zepa, were you able at the same time to go back and

22     perform other duties or become involved in other profession elsewhere?

23        A.   I don't understand the question.  Are you referring to the period

24     after the war when you speak about my returning to Zep?

25        Q.   My question was:  Were you able to perform the duties of an imam

Page 17947

 1     in Rogatica at a time while you were appointed imam in Zepa?

 2        A.   No, I couldn't do that.  Once I made a commitment, that's what I

 3     remained working.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now the sound has disappeared.  Please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Dumanjic, tell us, please, was any person on board the bus

 9     checked by the Army of Republika Srpska, and I'm talking about their

10     identity.  I am also talking about your journey from Zepa to other parts

11     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        A.   As far as I remember, that was not the case, although I expected

13     it to happen.

14        Q.   Thank you.  As you say, you tried to cross the mountain from Zepa

15     on foot.  Can you tell us how many people you saw there getting ready to

16     cross the Zepa mountain on foot to the territory under the control of the

17     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Thank you.

18        A.   I did try to get out of the area across the mountain, but I

19     didn't manage to.  The slope was steep, and I decided to return right

20     away and board a bus, so I didn't see any of the people there.

21        Q.   Thank you.  As an imam, were you aware of any individuals taking

22     off the -- being taken off the bus that was headed for Zepa and kept

23     behind in that area under the territory of the Army of Republika Srpska

24     contrary to international conventions?

25        A.   None of the people who were there on the bus with me were taken

Page 17948

 1     off.  However, the bus that my wife and children boarded, who followed me

 2     a day later from Zepa, certain individuals were taken off the bus.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me about that last bus that your wife

 4     boarded?  How many individuals were taken off, and were they able-bodied

 5     men?  Were they conscripts?  Did they fall within that category of

 6     individuals or not?  Thank you.

 7        A.   They were elderly people.  They were not military-age men.  I

 8     know some of them.  One from Srebrenica, some from Vlahovici who were

 9     also taken off and held at the Rogatica camp for some five or six months.

10     They joined us at a later date.  I don't know how many in all there were

11     there.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at P1434, please.  It's a list of

13     individuals who were taken on by the Rogatica reception centre that you

14     call a camp.  And please have a look at the list and see if there are any

15     elderly people among them, or if these individuals fell into the category

16     of able-bodied men.  It's tab 6, and it's one of the documents you have

17     before you.  Have a look at the document and tell us whether any of these

18     individuals were elderly.  Thank you.

19        A.   There's one individual I know, Mehmed Prcic.  I know him too.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know him too.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, could you please repeat the name --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Saban, whom I also know.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you please repeat the names of those you are

25     familiar with.

Page 17949

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand the witness.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you please again say the name, because the

 3     interpreters didn't understand you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bego.  Zecir Batres.  Nurbeg

 5     Gladovic.  Omer Cavcic.  Edhem Brguilja.  Omer Delic.  Nirzim [phoen]

 6     Otalagic.  Ahmed Brguilja.  Those are the ones I know.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise for bothering you with looking through

 9     the names.  Now, tell us, please, the individuals that you referred to as

10     the ones that you know, were they exchanged?  In other words, did you see

11     them later, did you hear of them, were they able to reach the free

12     territory of the Federation of Bosnia Herzegovina?  And I'm referring to

13     the individuals whose names you just read out.

14        A.   I don't know if they were exchanged or just simply released.  I

15     don't have any knowledge of that.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Please, do you know if the individuals who boarded

17     the last bus were taken off because they did not comply with the

18     agreement that was signed based on which all the able-bodied men were

19     supposed to be disarmed by UNPROFOR in Zepa; in other words, give their

20     weapons over to them before they cross over to the territory of the

21     federation?  Were you aware of this at all?

22        A.   I was not aware of it.

23        Q.   Can we now call up P736.  Please familiarise yourself with the

24     contents.  It was written on the 27th of July, 1995, and signed by, on

25     behalf of the Serbian side Mr. Rajko Kusic, and on behalf of the

Page 17950

 1     Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mehmed Mahic, Hamdija Torlak, and

 2     Amir Imamovic, and General Mladic also signed it as a witness to that

 3     agreement, and it was also supposed to be signed by a representative of

 4     UNPROFOR.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should stop for a moment because the

 6     transcript is not working.  It stopped when you asked for a certain

 7     document number.  We need the assistance of a technician.

 8             Mr. Tolimir, please repeat your full question, because it was not

 9     recorded, what was said, until you called up the document.  Please once

10     again.  Now the transcript is working.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   After having called document P736, I said:  Mr. Dumanjic, do you

14     know why the last bus which your wife boarded was pulled over and why

15     certain men were taken off?  Did it have anything to do with the fact

16     that the Muslims did not honour the agreement that they had signed about

17     disarming their own men and handing over the weapons to the UNPROFOR

18     personnel in centre of Zepa?  Thank you.  That was my question,

19     Mr. Dumanjic.

20             Now, in the meantime, Mr. Dumanjic was able to read the document

21     and is now able to answer my question.  Thank you.

22        A.   I did read the document, and I believe that none of the parties

23     complied with the agreement, neither your side, nor the Muslim side.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dumanjic.  Can you specifically indicate the part

25     which the Serbian side supposedly did in the adhere to?

Page 17951

 1        A.   Well, here's an example for you.  The brothers Gladovic are

 2     elderly men who were taken off the bus.  They were no conscripts at all.

 3     They were elderly individuals.  And besides, if Mehmed Hajric complied

 4     with this agreement, why was he killed?  He was not supposed to have been

 5     killed.  He was supposed to have been exchanged.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dumanjic.  My question for you was this:  Were all

 7     men taken off the bus, and I emphasise "men," after it came to be known

 8     that the men present in the Zepa mountains did not wish to surrender

 9     themselves and be disarmed before being transferred to the territory of

10     the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  You gave us the answer you wanted

11     to give us, and that is it.

12        A.   I'm not sure I'm clear on the question at all.

13        Q.   Well, then I'll repeat it.  Had the able-bodied men at the -- in

14     the Zepa mountains surrendered themselves and had they turned their

15     weapons over to UNPROFOR and had they complied with the provisions of the

16     agreement whereby UNPROFOR was supposed to transfer them from Zepa to the

17     territory under the control of the BH Army, would any of the individuals

18     who were on that bus have been taken prisoner or killed?  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment.  I interrupt you, sorry.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Tolimir, is it your opinion

21     that --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You may answer in a moment, but Mr. Elderkin gets

23     the floor first.

24             Mr. Elderkin.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I would object to that last

Page 17952

 1     question.  It's asking a hypothetical.  It's not asking about matters

 2     that are actually within the witness's actual possible knowledge.  It's

 3     rephrased about what actually happened or what he believed, that's one

 4     thing, but to ask him a long compound question about what might have

 5     happened in another set of events isn't -- isn't appropriate.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, not only the last question was quite

 7     complicated because you put together many things, please put very simple

 8     questions to the witness and one by one.  Please rephrase your last

 9     question, and only one question at a time.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, and thank

11     you to Mr. Elderkin for his assistance.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can the witness please say the following:  There were individuals

14     who boarded the buses, but would they not have been allowed to reach the

15     point of the free territory of the BH Federation had those who were in

16     the Zepa mountains agreed to surrender and be disarmed?

17        A.   Well, do you, Mr. Tolimir, truly believe that they would have

18     been safely transferred to the territory under the BH control?  In my

19     view, this would not have come about.  They would have been killed.

20     Otherwise, why would there have been cases of individuals being

21     transferred to Serbia and then held in various camps over there?  You

22     know how these things turned out, don't you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin.

24             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honour, same objection, and with a very clear

25     reason why the question is objectionable.  The answer is also now

Page 17953

 1     hypothetical.  The record is not advancing General Tolimir's case or

 2     informing us about what was actually happening within the witness's

 3     knowledge.  Could we please stick to the facts rather than what might

 4     have happened in various other circumstances.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you should put questions to those

 6     areas that the witness can really answer and provide you with his

 7     personal knowledge.  Try to do that.  Please, continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The

 9     witness did know that there were able-bodied men in the Zepa mountains.

10     He even tried to join them.  He said so in his statement.  That's why I

11     put my question to you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, put the next simple questions

13     related to his knowledge, no discussion.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it was only natural.  We simply

15     had to flee the area.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Let me

17     put the next question to the witness.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you know that the government in Sarajevo negotiated the

20     transfer of the able-bodied individuals from the Zepa mountains to Serbia

21     and that they did not arrive in Serbia as an enemy but that they were, in

22     fact, received by the Serbian government?  Were you aware of this?  Thank

23     you.

24        A.   As far as I know, from what I heard from those who were sent to

25     Serbia, they went there of their own will, and they were met there by the

Page 17954

 1     Serbian Army and put in a camp.  There was no arrangement about that.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dumanjic.  Do you know that before this Trial

 3     Chamber -- Chamber, the then UNPROFOR commander, General Smith, stated

 4     that there had been an agreement reached between Carl Bildt and

 5     Slobodan Milosevic whereby all the able-bodied men present in the Zepa

 6     mountains were to be transferred to Serbia, which would guarantee safety

 7     and security for them?  Do you know that?

 8        A.   That -- that I don't know.  What I do know that during his trial,

 9     Slobodan Milosevic bragged about having saved these Muslims and did not

10     allow them to return to the area but, rather, sent them across the world

11     to be resettled there.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, one observation.  For sure this

13     Mr. Witness was not present during the negotiations between Carl Bildt

14     and Slobodan Milosevic.  You should really focus on what this witness can

15     provide you with.

16             Mr. Elderkin.

17             MR. ELDERKIN:  In addition, I'd ask for a cite for any reference

18     to such prior testimony in the case.  I'm not entirely familiar with the

19     summary that General Tolimir has given to us there.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You may leave it like this and continue with

21     those areas of the personal knowledge of Mr. Dumanjic, Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I asked

23     him if he knew anything that.  He himself said that this was being

24     discussed at the Milosevic trial.  I may refrain from asking any

25     questions --

Page 17955

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You -- you -- I don't know what the purpose of a

 2     testimony of this witness about the Milosevic trial is.  He may have

 3     heard something about that trial.  This is at least hearsay.  You should

 4     take into account the personal situation of this witness.  You know about

 5     it, and you should focus on his experience on the ground and what he

 6     observed at that time in 1995.

 7             This is now the last question before the break.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I wanted

 9     to show a film to the witness showing the bus on which he was and all the

10     men are there.  However, my intention is not to be offensive either to

11     the witness, to the Prosecutor, or to the Bench, and I apologise for

12     that, and as a result, I have no further questions for this witness.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, if you're intention is to show a

14     video, you may do that.  My intervention was related to the negotiations

15     between Carl Bildt and Slobodan Milosevic.  This can't be a reason for

16     the conclusion of your examination.  If you want to show this video to

17     the witness, you should do that.  If it's a lengthy one, perhaps we

18     should do that after the break.  Otherwise, if it's a short part of it,

19     we can do it now if you intend to conclude your cross-examination quite

20     soon.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm

22     grateful to Mr. Dumanjic for his answers, and I apologise to you,

23     perhaps, for putting some questions that I shouldn't have.  I'm not going

24     to show the video, and with this I conclude the examination of this

25     witness, and I would like to thank everyone present here in the courtroom

Page 17956

 1     and everyone following these proceedings.  I wish him good health and God

 2     bless.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.  For the

 4     record, it is very clear that you have still the right to continue your

 5     cross-examination.  It's your free will to conclude it now.  I take it

 6     that on your own decision you conclude it now, your cross-examination.

 7             Mr. Elderkin, do you have questions during your re-examination?

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  Mr. President, just on one point, and it can be

 9     very brief, and it's in -- actually, it's a follow-up to the question

10     that Judge Mindua asked about whether the witness, at the time he was

11     leaving Zepa, knew about the fates of the other imams because he'd said

12     that he heard that other imams had been imprisoned or killed.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Elderkin:

14        Q.   Mr. Dumanjic, my question is in relation to what you said you had

15     heard about other imams being imprisoned or killed during the war.  You

16     mentioned the imam of Semizovac and Okrug.  Did you have any information

17     or do you have any information as to how those men were captured or

18     killed and by whom they may have been captured or killed?

19        A.   I didn't understand your question -- or, rather, I didn't hear it

20     clearly.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Dumanjic, do you understand me now?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, please put your question again,

24     perhaps in a very simple way.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:

Page 17957

 1        Q.   Sir, you spoke earlier about imams from two places being captured

 2     or killed.  Those places were Semizovac and Okrug.  Do you remember

 3     mentioning those places and people?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.  I mentioned it during your examination.  However,

 5     it's not mentioned in my statement, because nobody asked me about it.

 6        Q.   Do you remember the names of the imams of those places?

 7        A.   The name of the one from Semizovac, I heard it on the radio.  His

 8     last name was Ramic.  I don't know his first name.  And the one from

 9     Okrug was called Ramic, but I also don't know his first name.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are not quite sure that we

11     heard the names properly.

12             MR. ELDERKIN:

13        Q.   Sir, could I ask you one more time to repeat those names just so

14     that the interpreters can hear them as best possible, please?

15        A.   I don't know their first names.  I only know their surnames.  The

16     one from Semizovac was Ramic, and the one from the village of Okrug near

17     Visegrad was Karaman and that's all you know.

18        Q.   Do you know who captured or killed either of those men?  Do you

19     know anything about their circumstances or their fate?

20        A.   The one from Semizovac was simply picked up, he and his family,

21     and were then killed.  And as for the one from Okrug, I don't know how he

22     lost his life.

23        Q.   The imam from Semizovac, you say he and his family were picked up

24     and killed.  Do you know who were the people who picked that family and

25     that imam up and killed them?  Not personally, but do you know whether

Page 17958

 1     they were military men?  Were they civilians, police?  Do you have any

 2     information at all about them?

 3        A.   As far as I know, it was done by the Serb Army.

 4        Q.   Mr. Dumanjic, thank you very much.  I don't have any further

 5     questions.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, that finishes my re-examination.

 7     Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Dumanjic, the Chamber is very grateful that

 9     you were able to come to that location --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- and testify and to provide us with your

12     knowledge about the events in 1995.  Thank you very much again.  It was a

13     great help for us, and the Chamber would like to wish you all the best

14     for your health and for your future.  Thank you very much again.  This

15     concludes now your examination.  I would like to say good-bye and all the

16     best for you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I wish all the best

18     to you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, and this concludes the videolink.

20                           [The witness withdrew via videolink]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have some minutes left.  We should try

22     to manage the procedural matters before a possible break, to save some

23     time.

24             I have -- I would like to raise two things.  The first matter is

25     the following:  On the 7th September 2011, the Chamber granted the

Page 17959

 1     Prosecution's motion.  It was 2011.  The Prosecution's motion for the

 2     admission of the written evidence of Behara Krdzic pursuant to

 3     Rule 92 bis.  In accordance with that decision, the Chamber hereby orders

 4     the Prosecution to upload the written evidence contained in annex A of

 5     that motion to e-court under a new 65 ter number.

 6             My second issue is the following:  We discussed at length the

 7     admission of portions of the document D74.  Mr. Gajic, for the Defence,

 8     indicated which pages should be translated and admitted into evidence.

 9     This -- now I can state these pages listed in the e-mail from Mr. Gajic

10     will be marked for identification pending translations of these

11     documents -- of these pages.

12             These are the two things I wanted to raise.  Are there any other

13     matters?

14             Mr. Gajic.

15             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the meantime,

16     translations arrived for the documents that were marked for

17     identification, and with your leave, I would like to read the numbers of

18     these documents.  There's a total of ten of them.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please do that.

20             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] It's D187, D268, D271, D304, D306,

21     D310, D311, D312, D316, and D317.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  They will now be admitted

23     into evidence with these exhibit numbers.

24             Are there any other matters?  Mr. Elderkin.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honour, I have a similar list from the

Page 17960

 1     Prosecution with a couple of comments.  The following exhibits of

 2     previously MFI'd, the translations are now uploaded:  P898, P2404, P2451,

 3     P2586.

 4             In relation to P2404, Your Honours, this is an OTP interview with

 5     a protected witness.  The B/C/S that's uploaded is complete, but the

 6     English transcript at the moment is missing the last 29 pages.  It

 7     happens to have been a two-part document, and the Prosecution would

 8     request permission to add those pages to match the full -- full B/C/S

 9     version.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Leave is granted to add these pages.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  And in addition, there are two exhibits, P2662 and

12     P2663.  These are two of the intercept handwritten notebooks, and we'd

13     ask that they be marked as confidential.  I understand that they are

14     currently not marked as such, but they're the handwritten documents which

15     I think have some identifying features of protected witnesses in them.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I take it they are already in evidence.  Is

17     that correct?

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  P2662 is in evidence, and P2663 is also in

19     evidence, Your Honours, yes.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't see a problem, and I don't see an

21     objection.  These two documents, P2662 and P2663, will be put under seal.

22             The other documents previously marked for identification pending

23     translation will now be received into evidence.

24             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't see any reason for further discussion of

Page 17961

 1     procedural matters.  As the parties are aware, we are looking forward to

 2     another witness arriving and testifying here in the courtroom.  We don't

 3     know exactly when, but it may happen -- perhaps at the beginning of next

 4     week.  You should be aware we will communicate the proper date as soon as

 5     possible, perhaps today or at least tomorrow.  Please be prepared for

 6     this examination.

 7             We have to adjourn sine die, but we will announce the next day of

 8     hearings as soon as possible.

 9             We adjourn for the day.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

11                           at 11.24 a.m. sine die