Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18256

 1                           Monday, 23 January 2012

 2                           [Pre-Defence Conference]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.59 p.m.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom and

 7     outside the courtroom who are listening to these procedures.  Due to a

 8     technical problem we have a delayed start today.  I hope the system is

 9     now working well.

10             As this is the beginning of the Defence case, I would kindly ask

11     The Registrar to call the case.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

13     number IT-05-88/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Zdravko Tolimir.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Tolimir, are you receiving the translation, the

16     interpretation in a language you understand?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  I

18     am receiving interpretation in a language I understand; that is to say,

19     the Serbian language.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I would kindly ask for

21     appearances because it's the beginning, commencement of the Prosecution

22     case.

23             The Prosecution first, please.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.

25     Good afternoon to General Tolimir, Mr. Gajic, everyone.  My name is

Page 18257

 1     Kweku Vanderpuye.  I am here today with Peter McCloskey,

 2     Senior Trial Attorney, and Ms. Janet Stewart.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, and for Defence.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  May

 6     there be peace in this house for all those present, and may God's will be

 7     done in these proceedings as well as today, and may the outcome be as God

 8     wishes and not as I wish.  I hope we will all benefit from these

 9     proceedings.

10             The Defence is represented by Mr. Gajic, myself, as well as other

11     team members who are not present in the courtroom, such as Mr. Todrovski

12     and Stefanovic - thank you - as well as Kojnovic.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

14             This Pre-Defence Conference is being held pursuant to Rule 73 ter

15     of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of our Tribunal.  The Chamber

16     notes that the Defence's 65 ter list of witnesses and exhibits was filed

17     in English on the 5th of December, 2011.  The Defence notified the

18     Chamber and the Prosecution of an intention to call a total of four

19     witnesses; three fact witnesses, and one expert witness.  All of these

20     witnesses are proposed to be called viva voce.  None of them have

21     protected measures.  The estimate of the total time to be used during

22     examination-in-chief of these witnesses is 36 hours.

23             Pursuant to Rule 73 ter, the Chamber may call upon the Defence to

24     reduce the number of witnesses and shorten the estimated length for

25     examination-in-chief for some of the witnesses.  The Chamber sees no need

Page 18258

 1     to use its discretion to do either.  The Defence is hereby granted leave

 2     to call the four proposes witnesses and use the estimated 36 hours.

 3             The Chamber wishes to remind both parties that the revised order

 4     concerning guidelines on the presentation of evidence and conduct of the

 5     parties during trial, issued on the 4th of February, 2011, applies

 6     equally to the Defence case as it did to the Prosecution case.

 7             I turn now to pending motions.  The Chamber is currently seized

 8     of three motions, since some decisions were filed last week and this

 9     morning.  The Defence has submitted two motions for admission of

10     documents from the bar table filed in English on the

11     7th of December, 2011.  Responses were filed by the Prosecution on the

12     21st of December.  The decisions on these motions will be issued in due

13     course.

14             The Prosecution's motion to admit one document from the bar

15     table, pursuant to the testimony of Ramiz Dumanjic filed on the

16     22nd of December, 2011, was provided to the accused in B/C/S on Monday,

17     the 16th January, 2012.  A response by the Defence, if any, is due on

18     Monday, the 30th of January.

19             I turn now to other pending matters.  Duplicate exhibit issues.

20     The parties were informed by an e-mail from the Court officer on the

21     17th of January that there were several duplicate exhibits in evidence.

22     The parties have agreed via a Defence e-mail on the 18th of January on

23     which duplicates should be removed.  The Chamber has considered these

24     information and hereby orders the Registry to make the necessary changes

25     as agreed by the parties to remove the duplicates and file a memo on the

Page 18259

 1     record detail these corrections.

 2             I will now deal with one document in the custody of the Registry,

 3     but we have first to go into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

24     you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 18260

 1             Mr. Tolimir, as usual, this is the right moment to raise any

 2     matters you wish to raise to health problems or detention matters, if you

 3     so wish.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  No

 5     issues to raise concerning my health situation, as I do not use any

 6     medication; hence, I have no requests.  And other than that, there are no

 7     problems to mention.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.  Are there any

 9     other matters to be discussed or raised during the

10     Pre-Defence Conference?  Nobody wants to have the floor.

11             In that case, this concludes the Pre-Defence Conference.

12             Since we had a delayed start today, I think there is no need for

13     any break.  I take it that there will be no opening statement so that we

14     should immediately commence with the evidence of the first Defence

15     witness.  He should be brought into the courtroom, please.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome to the Tribunal.

18     Please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to you now.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO KRALJ

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

24     yourself comfortable.

25             As you will certainly know, first the Defence and then the

Page 18261

 1     Prosecution has the opportunity to put questions to you.  Mr. Tolimir

 2     will now commence his examination-in-chief and has the floor.

 3             Please, Mr. Tolimir.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] I'd like to greet Mr. Kralj and thank him for

 7     coming here to testify.  I wish him a pleasant stay in The Hague and may

 8     he provided with all he needs by God in the future life.

 9             For the transcript, Witness, I'd like to ask you to tell us your

10     first and last name.

11        A.   My name is Slavko Kralj.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us, in brief terms, something about your

13     military education, military background.

14        A.   I completed, firstly, a school for non-commissioned officers in

15     armoured units in Banja Luka in 1967.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   Following that, after five years, I passed the exam to achieve

18     the rank of lieutenant of armoured units and was consequently promoted to

19     officer rank of the then JNA.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21        A.   Next, I completed a professional officer school for staff duties,

22     followed by a course for battalion commanders.  Then, I had an exam to be

23     assigned to the rank of major.  Next, I completed an English language

24     course in Belgrade which lasted for a year.  I completed a preparatory

25     course for members and participants of peacekeeping missions.  I also

Page 18262

 1     underwent a course in diplomacy and a course for military attaches.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I intervene for a moment.  I just want --

 3     like to know when this happened.  When?  Because you told us quite a lot

 4     about your career but not about the time.  Could you tell us when did

 5     that happen?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  My exam to be promoted

 7     to the rank of major took place five years later, after 1967.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And when did you take part in this training about

 9     peacekeeping missions?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once I completed the English

11     language course, it was between February 1989 and February 1990.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  In the previous

13     answer, the witness referred to the rank of "second lieutenant" rather

14     than "major."

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  Since you mentioned you attended a course

19     in 1989 and 1990, can you tell us something about your career after 1989?

20        A.   Between February 1989 and February 1990, I was a member of the UN

21     in the UNIMOG peacekeeping operation in Iran.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Were you only on that mission or some others as well?

23        A.   During that period of time, it was the only mission, following

24     which I returned to my home unit.

25        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber what were your duties in the UN

Page 18263

 1     peacekeeping mission after 1990?

 2        A.   As part of the UN mission, I was one of the 12 JNA members who

 3     were there alongside other members stationed in Iran.  The task was to

 4     monitor the implementation of an agreement signed between Iraq and Iran

 5     along their 1.200 kilometre border.  It was a multi-ethnic mission,

 6     comprising members of other armed forces, from a number of countries who

 7     were accredited by their hosts in order to take part in the mission.  I

 8     was an observer along the border, and we were in charge of monitoring the

 9     implementation of a peace agreement and the truce that was in place in

10     keeping with relevant UN resolutions.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  Can you tell us something about your

12     career once the mission with the UN was over?

13        A.   Upon completion of the UN mission, I returned to my home unit,

14     which is the training centre for armoured units in Banja Luka.  My duty

15     there was that of desk officer in charge of finance in the curriculum

16     department.

17        Q.   Thank you.  What happened after that?

18        A.   After that, I was seconded in October 1991 to the Knin Corps,

19     where I spent around four months.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell the Chamber whether in that territory,

21     which saw combat in the former SFRY in Croatia or elsewhere, you met any

22     of your former colleagues from the UN mission?

23        A.   While I was in Knin during the period I specified, I came across

24     a Swedish major who wore plain civilian white clothes as part of the

25     European Community mission.  We met at a number of meetings in the

Page 18264

 1     village of Pakovo Selo.  That was the first person I met.  I met another

 2     major subsequently, who was part of UNPROFOR.  His unit was stationed in

 3     Croatia in Slavonia.  I even recall his name, Raul Costa [phoen], from

 4     Argentina.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Chamber whether you exchanged your

 6     experiences and impressions of the Iran and Yugoslavia peacekeeping

 7     missions, and did you discuss your points of view given the different

 8     roles you assumed at the time?

 9        A.   The Swedish major whom I met in Pakovo Selo, while I was in Knin,

10     pretended not to know me.  He never returned to any negotiations in

11     Pakovo Selo following that.  In Gradiska, I met Raul Kosta, the

12     Argentinian major.  He commanded a communications battalion of UNPROFOR

13     in Daruvar.  It was a warm encounter.  Following a number of dangerous

14     joint patrols in Iran, it was exiting to run into an old mate from the

15     UN, and it happened in a friendly way.  I was surprised by something,

16     though.  Major Kosta took off his blue UN beret and literally told me

17     this:  Slavko, this is not a neutral UN mission such as the one we were

18     participants of in Iran.  This mission is here with the excuse of

19     protecting the Serbs in the area; whereas its true goals are quite

20     different.  If these people are not helped they will have to go, whether

21     they want it or not.  And they are very scared.  Just in case, you should

22     have my address, my telephone number.  And if you are ever in need of

23     assistance anywhere in the world as a refugee, I will help you.

24             His service lasted for about half a year, and I did not manage to

25     see him again.

Page 18265

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I thank the interpreters.  Tell us if the population

 2     of Daruvar who are of Serb ethnicity remained in that area under the

 3     protection of the UN members, one of whom was this man Raul?  Thank you.

 4        A.   In the general area of Daruvar, Okucani, Gradiska, no one Serb

 5     stayed.  There was a military campaign and they were all driven out of

 6     the area across the river Sava.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, please, your colleague said that he was on a

 8     neutral mission in Iraq.  What were the differences between that mission

 9     and the mission of the UN in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina?  What are

10     your impression and your opinion, based on your experience?

11        A.   Let me first say that I am proud -- or, rather, that I was proud

12     to have the opportunity to meet anybody in a UN uniform again, because I

13     considered any such person as a member of my wider family.  I was very

14     disappointed by the role of the UN in Croatia, especially disappointed by

15     the military monitors who, in accordance with the agreement on the

16     withdrawal of weapons and control, engaged more in reconnaissance than in

17     the mission assigned to them.  Let me immediately add that the monitors

18     were not accredited in the Republika Srpska, but there was an agreement

19     that they were to be allowed to control the positions of deployment of

20     some kinds of weapons that had been withdrawn from Slavonia to the south

21     of the river Sava.

22             As a liaison officer, with other officers who were in Slavonia, I

23     sensed that the officers who -- that the officers on the other side were

24     partial, that they had side with Croatia.  In other words, they were not

25     neutral and they acted more for the benefit of the Croats than they --

Page 18266

 1     more than reporting on the events on the ground.  I was taught when I was

 2     to become a UN monitor that I was supposed to be the eyes and the ears of

 3     the Secretary-General who, based on information received from me, should

 4     be in a position to take the right decisions.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us more about your experience with the attitude

 6     of the UNPROFOR toward the Army of Republika Srpska and the other warring

 7     parties in the areas relevant for this trial, such as Srebrenica, Zepa,

 8     and others.  Did you notice any differences there?

 9        A.   There was a huge difference.  My mission in Iran was an unarmed

10     monitoring mission.  The only weapons we had were UN emblems and the UN

11     flag; that is, the officers from various countries who were monitors

12     there didn't carry any weapons.  UNPROFOR had a different mandate.

13     UNPROFOR was an army with fully armed units, with materiel and technical

14     equipment.  And they acted from the position of power.

15             I never understood a rule they cherished; namely, shoot [Realtime

16     transcript read in error "should the"] first and ask questions later.  In

17     subsequent conversations with UNPROFOR members, I came to understand that

18     the members of the VRS were depicted to them in a very different way.

19     Many of them didn't even believe me that I had been a UN mission member

20     until I spoke to them in English and explained some procedures of ours.

21     Later on they showed more respect.

22             They advocated the thesis of freedom of movement, that they had

23     the right to go wherever they wanted in whichever way they chose,

24     although that was not their mandate.  The original mandate was for them

25     to be stationed in protected zones such as Gorazde, Srebrenica, Zepa, and

Page 18267

 1     others.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now please tell the Trial Chamber, as an UN

 3     members --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  As an UN member --

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   -- in 1989 and 1990, and a member of the VRS later, what were the

 7     differences in the use of UN forces for the prevention of conflicts and

 8     improving the relations between the warring parties?  Thank you.

 9        A.   We had a clear mandate from the UN in Iran; whereas, here the

10     first thing to do was to make peace, because without peace there can be

11     no other activities.  If the warring parties fail to agree on a

12     cease-fire, any activities can be hazardous for the UNPROFOR itself, so

13     the first thing to do was to make peace between the warring parties under

14     the auspices of the UNPROFOR command.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What was your first duty when the war began in

16     Croatia?  You mentioned the Knin Corps.  Thank you.

17        A.   I was recognised by Colonel Mesud Hasotic [Realtime transcript

18     read in error "Mishud Hasodic"] of the Knin Corps who was chief of morale

19     and legal affairs at the Knin Corps.  He asked me, Do you speak English?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I may interrupt you for a moment, sorry for that.

21             Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 12 of the

23     transcript, in line 13, the name was incorrectly recorded.  It should be

24     "Mesud Hasotic."

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hasotic.  This is it.

Page 18268

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this correction.

 2             Please go ahead with your answer.  Sorry.  Go ahead, please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Mesud Hasotic asked me if I

 4     spoke English.  I smiled and answered, Yes, why?  He replied, Tomorrow,

 5     the corps commander, General Vukovic, is receiving the ambassadors of the

 6     European Community, and I have a big problem.  The interpreter who was

 7     supposed to attend the meeting suddenly had to leave for some private

 8     reasons.  Can you interpret simultaneously from English into our language

 9     and back?  Of course I asked him to give me some more detailed

10     information, what they wanted to discuss at that meeting, Colonel Hasotic

11     trusted me, and on the follow day I interpreted at that meeting.

12             The participants of the meeting were the corps commander,

13     General Vukovic; Colonel Hasotic; and Colonel Tolimir, which was his rank

14     at the time, and that was the first time I met him.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.  Since you have mentioned me, and I stand accused

17     here, could you please specify the exact date and what those talks what

18     the ambassadors of the European Community were about so that the

19     Trial Chamber gets a complete picture?

20        A.   General, sir, that happened on the day following my arrival in

21     Knin.  The month was October and the year 1991.  At the meeting, they

22     discussed the military political situation in the region.  The two

23     ambassadors, and I remember that one of them was Italian and the other

24     Belgian, they represented the European Community and they were dressed in

25     white.  They were stationed in Split.  They had a number of questions

Page 18269

 1     about the military political situation, the situation in that part of the

 2     territory.  And let me add that the corps at that time had JNA insignia.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  If you remember, tell us where the other units of

 4     UNPROFOR or the forces' representatives of the UN were stationed during

 5     the war in Croatia?  In which territories, in which towns, if you can

 6     remember?  Thank you.

 7        A.   UNPROFOR units were stationed in Knin, Daruvar, and in Slavonia.

 8     I returned from Knin after four months, and I rejoined the

 9     1st Krajina Corps, and I had contacts with the personnel in Slavonia and

10     in the wider surrounding of Okucani.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Were there representatives of the UN in

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war in Croatia?  Thank you.

13        A.   The first representatives came to the Republic of Croatia.  I had

14     the opportunity and the pleasure, I may say, to witness the arrival of

15     the forward detachment of the Canadian Reconnaissance Battalion.  I was

16     in Gradiska at the time, pursuant to the approval of the Main Staff

17     commander.  And there was also an approval given over the phone from

18     Geneva by President Karadzic, that UNPROFOR units should be allowed to

19     enter the territory of the RS.

20        Q.   Thank you.  What was the status or the position of UNPROFOR

21     members in Bosnia during the war in Croatia?  Thank you.

22        A.   Officially, those were two missions.  However, logistics and

23     supply went through Croatia because there was a base there already, the

24     UNPROFOR had developed infrastructure already, and they used Zagreb

25     airport for supply.  There was also a UNHCR base there.  They also

Page 18270

 1     sported UN insignia.  Small convoys travelled from Slavonia through

 2     Banja Luka to territories controlled by Muslims or Croats rather

 3     frequently.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  This will be useful later once we start discussing

 5     other matters, I mean the movement of these convoys.  But let us finish

 6     with the following:  What was your duty during the war in Croatia, and

 7     later on as a member of the VRS?  Thank you.

 8        A.   In the Knin Corps, following the meeting organised by the corps

 9     commander, he ordered that I be assigned to Hasotic's department as

10     interpreter, as there was a lot of need for translation and

11     interpretation and there was no one else in the corps who could speak

12     English.  I remained in that position for about four months, as it was a

13     secondment.  After the four months, I was replaced and I returned to

14     assume the duties of communications officer in the 1st Krajina Corps in

15     Banja Luka in the civilian affairs sector.  I performed the same duties

16     until the 3rd of November, 1994, when I was seconded again to the

17     Main Staff of the VRS.  There, I was appointed to act as interpreter

18     until the end of the war.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what were your duties in the civilian

20     affairs sector in the 1st Krajina Corps, and what were your duties in the

21     Main Staff of the VRS?

22        A.   In the civilian sector of the 1st Krajina Corps I was an

23     interpreter and a liaison officer.  As the liaison officer, I was in

24     contact with UNPROFOR representatives as well as military observers who

25     came from Slavonia to control the territory.  I took part in receiving,

Page 18271

 1     escorting, and monitoring UNHCR and UNPROFOR convoys through

 2     RS territory, from Gradiska via Banja Luka, Jajce, and on to Travnik.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  What year were you seconded from Banja Luka to the

 4     Main Staff of the VRS, and what were your duties there?

 5        A.   The secondment took place on the 3rd of November, 1994.  Upon

 6     arrival in the Main Staff, I received an additional duty, in addition to

 7     being interpreter, who was in charge of liaisoning with UNPROFOR and

 8     international organisations as the civilian affairs sector.  I was also

 9     supposed to act as deputy chief of sector, Colonel Djurdjic [Realtime

10     transcript read in error "Djuric"], Milos Djurdjic.

11        Q.   Since you were also deputy chief of sector, can you tell us

12     whether you were privy to Mr. Djurdjic's affairs, to his tasks?

13        A.   With time I became acquainted with all administrative matters

14     that Mr. Djurdjic was in charge of in the Main Staff, such as UNPROFOR

15     co-operation as well as co-operation with the humanitarian

16     administrations.  He we focussed particularly on the administrative part.

17     I need to say that he was the only person in that sector when I arrived.

18     I could act in his stead in case of his absence, be it because he was on

19     regular or sick leave.  I was completely familiar with the procedure,

20     although it took some time for me to be completely acquainted with it.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.  Just for the sake of the

22     record, could you please repeat the name of Colonel Djurdjic, to have it

23     clear on the record.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Milos Djurdjic.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I heard "Djurdjic" instead of "Djuric."  Could

Page 18272

 1     that be corrected, please.  Not "Djurdic" but "Djurdjic."

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, this is not precise.  I said not "Djuric" but

 4     "Djurdjic."  Could that be corrected, please.  The name is Djurdjic.  I

 5     think in line 21, at the end it is correct, but it should not be recorded

 6     as "not Djurdic."  We will not manage that, I am afraid.  So please

 7     continue, Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Tell us, please, what was Mr. Djurdjic's position?  And his

11     sector for civilian affairs, did it exchange information with the

12     security and intelligence sector of the Main Staff?

13        A.   Mr. Djurdjic's sector, in terms of organisational structure, was

14     directly under the Main Staff commander.  The tasks of the sector were

15     co-operation with UNPROFOR as well as co-operation with international

16     humanitarian organisations and other civilian organisations.

17     Mr. Djurdjic was in charge of all that.  It had nothing to do with the

18     security and intelligence sector.  There was no direct connection in

19     terms of line of command.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Previously, you mentioned the agreement on cessation

21     of hostilities and freedom of movement.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we then see P101, which is

23     the agreement itself.  Sorry, it is P1011, dated the

24     31st of December, 1994.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we had a delayed start today.

Page 18273

 1     Therefore, I would propose that we have our first break now, resume at

 2     4.30, then sit for one hour again, and then again a break so that our --

 3     for three hours hearing would be from 3.00 to 4.00, from 4.30 to 5.30,

 4     and from 6.00 to 7.00.  If you agree with that, then you should continue

 5     with this document after the break.

 6             We have our first break now, sir, and we will resume at half past

 7     4.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 4.02 p.m.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11                           --- On resuming at 4.31 p.m.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to make one correction of the

13     transcript.  On page 11, line 12, it should read, I quote:

14             "I never understood a rule they cherished; namely, shoot first

15     and ask questions later."

16             Mr. Tolimir, please continue your examination-in-chief.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             I would like to show Exhibit P1011 in e-court.  This is the

19     agreement on a general cessation of hostilities of the 31st of December,

20     1993.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  1994, interpreter's correction.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And we do have the agreement.  We

23     see it on the screen.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Are you familiar with the text of the agreement?  Thank you.

Page 18274

 1        A.   Yes, I am familiar with it.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at paragraph 2 where it states, I

 3     quote:

 4             "The cessation of hostilities will be supervised and monitored by

 5     UNPROFOR through the establishment of joint commissions.  A central

 6     joint commission shall be established under the chairmanship of UNPROFOR,

 7     with initial meetings at the Sarajevo airport, and regional joint

 8     commissions shall also be established in permanent session as needed and

 9     as determined by the central joint commission."

10             My question is:  Can you please tell the Trial Chamber whether

11     you know whether the central and regional joint commissions were actually

12     formed on the territory of the warring parties?  Thank you.

13        A.   A central joint commission was formed, as well as a regional

14     joint commission on the territory of the warring parties.

15        Q.   Thank you.  If you remember, can you tell us who were the members

16     of this central joint commission from the Army of Republika Srpska and

17     from the other parties to the conflict?  Are you able to tell us who the

18     members of that central joint commission were?  Thank you.

19        A.   At the beginning, for a time, General Gvero was a member of the

20     central joint commission, as well as General Tolimir.  Sometimes I also

21     took part in these joint commissions as an interpreter.  From the other

22     side, there were also representatives by the Muslims and the Croats.  I

23     cannot recall their names right now.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to explain, briefly, what this

25     central joint commission actually was, what it means?  What did it

Page 18275

 1     comprise of?  What were all the parties that were in it?

 2        A.   The central joint commission was chaired by the UNPROFOR, and it

 3     also included the parties to the conflict, representatives of the Army

 4     of Republika Srpska and representatives of the Croatian and the Muslim

 5     ones, too.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at paragraph 5 of this agreement,

 7     please, the paragraph that we can see on the screen, which states, I

 8     quote:

 9             "Full freedom of movement with appropriate procedures shall exist

10     for UNPROFOR and other official international agencies, in particular

11     UNHCR, in order to implement this agreement, to monitor human rights, and

12     to deliver humanitarian aid, including medical supplies and evacuations.

13     The parties commit themselves to full respect for the security and safety

14     of UNPROFOR members and related personnel.  UNPROFOR shall continue to

15     prevent any abuse of freedom of movement by its personnel or convoys

16     which might be of military benefit to either party."

17             My question is:  This provision that we've just read in

18     paragraph 5 refers to two things; first of all, it talks about freedom of

19     movement and it also talks about preventing any abuse of freedom of

20     movement.  Are you able to tell us if you had any knowledge about the

21     abuse of or misuse of the UNPROFOR convoy and the humanitarian aid

22     convoys, since that is something that is noted in this paragraph as one

23     of the obligations of UNPROFOR?

24        A.   When the UNPROFOR was moving or the UNHCR, there were cases,

25     first of all, when video equipment was carried, especially cameras, which

Page 18276

 1     were used to film the territory through which the convoy was passing.  As

 2     a rule, the equipment was not announced previously, pursuant to

 3     procedures that were already agreed on.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Since you talk here about this equipment being used

 5     by convoys and UNPROFOR in order to gather data about one of the sides,

 6     do you know whether UNPROFOR took measures to prevent such activities, as

 7     it was duty-bound to do according to what it states here, any abuses by

 8     its members or humanitarian organisation personnel, as they were passing?

 9     Thank you.

10        A.   The UNPROFOR would give explanations how the equipment was

11     allegedly being used as personal equipment by individuals.  They didn't

12     take this seriously and did not prevent this.  They allowed this policy

13     to continue until instructions were received at the check-points to

14     confiscate this equipment.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Since these misuses were repeated in a number of

16     convoys until confiscation of equipment was introduced, were there any

17     requests by the UNPROFOR staff regarding freedom of movement and requests

18     not to hinder their activities in relation to the parties?  Thank you.

19        A.   UNPROFOR tried, in all possible ways, to enjoy full freedom of

20     movement which to me, as a soldier and a former UN member, meant that

21     this was just another name for spy work or the intelligence service which

22     actually was demonstrated in quite few instances.  Freedom of movement in

23     this case indicates freedom of movement along pre-approved routes and

24     providing security by the Army of Republika Srpska.  The UNPROFOR did not

25     have a mandate to be on the territory of Republika Srpska but to be in

Page 18277

 1     safe areas.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Please, are you aware if there was a particular

 3     procedure that was established to secure this freedom of movement that we

 4     talked about earlier?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Procedures were agreed for the movement of UNPROFOR during

 6     meetings of the central joint commission.  This included convoys as well

 7     as individuals.  In order to move around in the territory of

 8     Republika Srpska at all, UNPROFOR, through certain means of

 9     communication, was supposed to notify about the movement of convoys or

10     UNPROFOR vehicles; for example, it was supposed to announce a convoy 48

11     hours in advance, and individual UNPROFOR vehicles were to be announced

12     24 hours in advance.  Medical evacuations were urgent and as needed.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's now look at D250.  Can we

15     look at D250 in e-court now, please.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   This is a report by Zdravko Tolimir on a meeting of the

18     central joint commission, which was held on the 4th of January, 1995.

19     The date on the actual report is the 5th of January, 1995.  Thank you.

20     You see the document in front of you.  Can we now look at paragraph 5,

21     please.  This is on the second page.  We can see paragraph 5 which

22     states:

23             "UNPROFOR will prepare a draft agreement on 'complete freedom of

24     movement,' which will be agreed bilaterally with the parties."

25             My question is:  Do you know whether the Serbian side entered

Page 18278

 1     into an agreement with UNPROFOR pursuant to a draft prepared by them?

 2        A.   The Serbian side signed an agreement on freedom of movement which

 3     implied appropriate procedures which were referred to in the agreement.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And did the other parties also sign the agreement,

 5     and do you know if they adhered to the agreement that they signed, if

 6     they did sign it?  Thank you.

 7        A.   As far as I know, the other side - I am thinking of the Muslim

 8     Croat side - never signed the freedom of movement agreement, and if they

 9     didn't sign it then they couldn't have adhered to it either.

10        Q.   Thank you.  If you remember, are you able to tell us briefly why

11     they didn't want to sign the agreement, if you know this through the work

12     of the central joint commission?  Thank you.

13        A.   First of all, UNPROFOR was stationed on their territory.  They

14     believed that they shouldn't sign it, and they even offered - and it

15     surprised me, the statement by a certain Mr. Muratovic - that the airport

16     which at that time was under our control, they leased out to UNPROFOR in

17     return for money.  I cannot state whether this was accurate or not, but

18     all of these things indicate that, according to my knowledge, the

19     UNPROFOR and the Muslim and the Croat side agreed amongst themselves what

20     was supposed to be done before the central joint commission convened.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have D77, next.

23     The title is:  "The Principles of the Freedom of Movement." [Microphone

24     not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 18279

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we also see the second page of

 2     this document.  We be see the signatures.  On the left-hand side we have

 3     General Brinkman on behalf of UNPROFOR.  On the right-hand side we have

 4     Major-General Zdravko Tolimir, as a representative of the VRS.

 5             Could we now go back to page 1, please.

 6             Thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Who or what convoys did these principles apply to?

 9        A.   This agreement pertained to UNPROFOR convoys, as well as to

10     individual movements of the UN military observers.

11        Q.   Thank you.  To your knowledge, was this agreement honoured in

12     practice by the signatories; that is to say, UNPROFOR and the VRS?

13        A.   The agreement was honoured in full by the VRS.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you explain the procedure of approval for

15     UNPROFOR convoys or, rather, what was the procedure like in practical

16     terms?

17        A.   In keeping with the agreement on the principles for freedom of

18     movement, UNPROFOR forwarded notifications of convoys.  There was an

19     UNPROFOR office in the territory of the RS at Pale.  They had a telefax

20     which was used to forward notifications of convoy movements to

21     Colonel Djurdjic's office.  There was a telefax machine on the other end

22     which used a civilian number.  It was on around the clock; in other

23     words, messages could be sent and received automatically, nonstop.

24     Originally, notifications were sent in both English and in translation

25     into Serbian.

Page 18280

 1             Due to poor communication links or illegible fax messages, it

 2     happened that the notifications had to be cross-referenced or compared,

 3     since, under the agreement, the English text had precedence.  Once the

 4     office was in receipt of an accurate notification of UNPROFOR movement,

 5     it was put in the mail, sent to the commander for his attention.  The

 6     commander, as part of his regular daily reading of mail, reviewed the

 7     document, initialled it, and introduced remarks if he deemed it

 8     necessary.

 9             Through operational channels, the document was then returned to

10     Colonel Djurdjic's office.  What followed was a document which was used

11     to notify UNPROFOR -- or, rather, its office at Pale, that there were no

12     specific issues concerning the requested movements of convoys or

13     observers.  Another such document was sent to the unit in charge of

14     monitoring the movement of the convoy in question.

15        Q.   Can you tell us whether this central joint commission had

16     anything to do with these convoy movements?

17        A.   The central joint commission set up procedure, the procedure that

18     had to be respected by Colonel Djurdjic and others on the part of the VRS

19     involved in such movements.

20        Q.   Concerning these UNPROFOR convoy notifications, was there an

21     arrangement or an agreement reached at the level of the central

22     joint commission?

23        A.   It was the starting point.  The arrangement at the level of the

24     CJC was the starting point of the whole thing.

25        Q.   Since you say it was the starting point, did your sector for

Page 18281

 1     civilian affairs receive information on the work of the

 2     central joint commission?

 3        A.   We had the final document produced by the

 4     central joint commission; that is to say, we knew of the things that were

 5     supposed to be implemented.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next have D254.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   While we are waiting for it, can you tell us this:  Were specific

 9     amounts and cargo discussed at the level of the central joint commission,

10     as per individual convoys?

11        A.   There was discussion about the items which could be transported

12     by trucks at the level of the central joint commission.  Quantity was

13     discussed as well, given the fact, in particular, that there was an

14     embargo on the import of weapons and ammunition into Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15     We had verified information that UNHCR and UNPROFOR convoys were being

16     used to supply ammunition and even weapons, as well as fuel, to the

17     enclaves or protected areas.

18             If I may add, when I was still with the 1st Krajina Corps, one

19     entire UNHCR convoy from Gradiska, once checked, returned to Zagreb

20     airport without any explanation.  There was a lot of effort invested in

21     the convoy arriving, but once the checks and controls were set up at

22     certain points along the route, the convoy turned back to Zagreb and

23     never attempted to use the same route with the bills of lading they had

24     at the time; although, I remember that it included food, flour, and other

25     items.

Page 18282

 1        Q.   Now that you mention it, can you tell the Chamber why the convoy

 2     turned back of its own accord so that I wouldn't have to speculate?

 3        A.   While I was the liaison officer of the 1st Krajina Corps, we

 4     checked documents and the drivers.  We did not inspect the convoys in

 5     detail because this was a sealed cargo, followed by notifications and

 6     documents, and we still trusted them.  However, once we began requesting

 7     that the cargo be inspected by way of random samples, and when I say that

 8     I mean that the personnel at the check-point would choose one or two

 9     trucks at random and use metal detectors to check the cargo, the convoy

10     leader called his office in Zagreb and refused to submit to such an

11     inspection.  Since we were in a large parking area, he ordered that the

12     convoy turn back, and they went back to Zagreb.

13        Q.   I called up a document which is now in front of you.  It is dated

14     the 12th of February, 1995, by the Main Staff.  It was signed by

15     General Tolimir.  We'll see that later on.  It was forwarded to all the

16     commands of the VRS, as well as their -- as well as to the organs of the

17     interior.  It involved UNPROFOR movement in the territory of

18     Republika Srpska and a certain procedure mentioned.  I will read the

19     first paragraph:

20             "Through the regional joint commissions, UNPROFOR representatives

21     are constantly bringing up the issue of greater freedom of movement for

22     UNPROFOR across the front line with the aim of getting authorisation to

23     cross the front line and move in the territory Republika Srpska on the

24     lower regional levels while not having to notify the Main Staff of the

25     VRS of all movements and not to having to wait for authorisation by the

Page 18283

 1     Main Staff of the VRS before doing so.

 2             "This is how UNPROFOR representatives wish to avoid complying

 3     with the obligation they undertook when they signed the obligations set

 4     out in the agreement on Principles of Freedom of Movement signed on

 5     31 January 1995 by the Main Staff of the VRS

 6     (Major-General Zdravko Tolimir) and the UNPROFOR command for the former

 7     BH (General Brinkman).  We hereby forward the entire text of the

 8     agreement."

 9             What followed is a number was procedures.  Are you familiar with

10     such UNPROFOR attempts as referred to in the first paragraph?  Thank you.

11        A.   I am familiar with these intentions of UNPROFOR for two reasons,

12     one of them being the fact that Colonel Djurdjic informed me of that.  He

13     received relevant information and was in constant contact with the units

14     that conducted checks at check-points.  Also, the duty officer of the

15     Main Staff, received reports from units about UNPROFOR activities.  That

16     was supplementary information that was included in such reports, but I

17     paid special attention to it.

18             Often times there were instances when UNPROFOR requested that

19     military monitors for smaller convoys be led to pass.  However, that was

20     not covered by the agreement on the central joint commission, nor did

21     they honour the -- the notice period, that is 24 or 48 hours in advance,

22     without there being an urgent need for that.  There were even attempts at

23     bribing the personnel at the check-points with the fuel and other stuff

24     for them to let them pass.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Please explain, briefly, why UNPROFOR tried so hard

Page 18284

 1     to pass the check-points and cross the front line which was not in

 2     accordance with the agreements reached at the central joint commission

 3     and without a permission to move about in the territory of the RS?

 4        A.   There was intelligence about what was going on and what the

 5     situation was like under UNPROFOR control.  This intelligence shows that

 6     they also had -- also engaged in other activities; namely, supplying or

 7     informing the Muslim or Croatian side of what the VRS were doing.

 8     Specifically, the military observers needed some time to pass through a

 9     certain territory.  They could observe military positions or carry or

10     deliver something to the opposing side, for example, ammunition.  And I

11     am talking about extensive territories and unit movements.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were on a UN mission in Iraq, as you said,

13     and you also took part in the war and carried out some duties that had to

14     do with the UN and UNPROFOR, can you point out the differences with

15     regard to the freedom of movement of UN forces in the RS as compared to

16     the situation in Iraq or Iran where you were on mission?  Thank you.

17        A.   There was a huge difference.  I was in Iranian territory as an

18     observer, but we were unable to go anywhere, officially or not, without

19     being escorted by some people that were called liaison officers.  There

20     was a check-point and you couldn't pass there to go to a sector without

21     an escort, let alone to the demarcation line or any other place.  You

22     always needed their military escort and a liaison officer who, of course,

23     spoke English.

24             Here, UNPROFOR had a much greater freedom of movement.  All that

25     was required was a check at the point of entry and another at the point

Page 18285

 1     of exit from the territory in question.  They also had to move along a

 2     certain route.  It happened very rarely that they had an armed military

 3     escort, but they didn't want one, either, because they were armed

 4     themselves.  Their military observers were armed; whereas, over there,

 5     the only weapons that we had were the UN insignia and the UN flag.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You said that they didn't want an armed escort.  Did

 7     they have any kind of escort while moving through RS territory, armed or

 8     unarmed?  Thank you.

 9        A.   The UNHCR was escorted in the territory of the 1st Corps.  They

10     were escorted by the military police and sometimes, if necessary, by the

11     civilian police.  Since we are talking about a territory that stretches

12     from Gradiska to Travnik, that is, it's rather extensive.  That escort

13     was to vouch, say, for the security of the convoy and make sure that it

14     really reaches its destination.  As a liaison officer, I had very

15     unpleasant experiences.  There were instances when the local population

16     accused the VRS of nurturing them while their sons were dying on the

17     battle-field.  I am talking about convoys that were supposed to cross the

18     demarcation line.

19        Q.   Thank you.  We saw that agreement on the cessation of

20     hostilities.  I quoted from it.  The UNPROFOR was duty-bound to sanction

21     any misuse on the part of their members.  Was the VRS in the position to

22     do anything of the kind in the territory through which they moved?

23        A.   The VRS could step up the controls at the check-points.  They

24     could inspect their cargo, and they could compare the amount of cargo to

25     some standards that apply to the unit -- to the respective unit in the

Page 18286

 1     field.  There are some standard requirements for provisions of food or

 2     fuel or ammunition for units of various types.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us who it was in the VRS who checked

 4     UNPROFOR convoys to prevent a misuse?

 5        A.   The first -- the first level was Colonel Djurdjic's office.  He

 6     would study each notification, and in his absence I would do it, and

 7     check if it was in line with the provisions of the agreement reached by

 8     the central joint commission.  Of course, it was impossible for

 9     everything to be agreed upon there.  Then estimates were made whether the

10     goods transported were something that UNPROFOR needed or, possibly, the

11     population, or, in the worst case, military units; that is, the Muslim

12     army in the enclave, such as Gorazde.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When Djurdjic gave approval for the passage of a

14     convoy which was announced to the Main Staff, did he do it arbitrarily or

15     were there any criteria that Djurdjic had to honour in the process?  In

16     other words, did Djurdjic make a proposal which had to be approved by the

17     commander?  Thank you.

18        A.   In the office, aggregate statistics were made about the

19     quantities of the sensitive goods, such as fuel, ammunition, and

20     suspicious materials.  The data was collected at the check-points, and

21     through a liaison officer or another person at the corps command, relayed

22     to the operative component of the command and also to Colonel Djurdjic's

23     office.  Colonel Djurdjic was able to give information to the commander,

24     how much of a certain type of goods entered any particular enclave in a

25     period of time, especially Srebrenica, Zepa, or Gorazde, and he was in a

Page 18287

 1     position to suggest that the quantities received during a certain period

 2     were sufficient or insufficient.  However, those quantities were

 3     invariably two or three times greater than what was necessary for the

 4     units that were there, although their standards were somewhat different

 5     from ours, but not that much.

 6             Colonel Djurdjic received notifications in due time, and he had

 7     time enough to visit our logistics organs who were in charge of feeding

 8     the army.  He gained immediate knowledge of the standards of the --

 9     applicable to food or fuel required per soldier or per unit in a certain

10     period of time.  Consequently, he was in a position to make a suggestion

11     to the commander that certain quantities should be reduced.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Let us go to the last page of document D254, in

13     paragraph 2.  I read:

14             "You need to send us a list of goods whose transport should be

15     prohibited.  You are to prepare this on the basis of past experience with

16     fraudulent dealings and abuses by UNPROFOR.  After your proposals have

17     been reviewed, you will be given a list of goods whose transport is

18     prohibited unless expressly approved by the Main Staff of the VRS and

19     announced to you."

20             Here is my question:  Since you've just spoken about Djurdjic's

21     detailed analysis of the requirements of the opposing side or UNPROFOR,

22     can you tell us whether the Main Staff took care of -- or, rather, the

23     Main Staff had a relevant knowledge of what could or could not be let

24     pass to go to enemy territory?  Thank you.

25        A.   Once we learned of the misuse of UNPROFOR and UNHCR convoys, more

Page 18288

 1     attention was being paid by the Main Staff to the cargo itself that was

 2     being transported by those convoys, particularly if it was assessed that

 3     the cargo in question was not something that was needed for UNPROFOR or

 4     the civilians in the enclaves, but, rather, the military forces there.

 5     Careful records were kept of what and how much cargo was transferred into

 6     the enclaves which should allow for a normal functioning of UNPROFOR.

 7     Weekly plans were drafted and agreed with UNPROFOR, and they were planned

 8     for a few weeks in advance.

 9        Q.   Thank you. [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is time for a break, and with

12     your leave, Mr. President, I will wait with my next question until later.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a good proposal, indeed.  We need the

14     second break and we will resume at 6.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18                           --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Please continue your

20     examination.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             Could we look at 1D874 in e-court now, please.  This is a

23     memorandum to the Drina Corps command on the 29th of July, 1993.  Can we

24     please rotate the document.

25             In the second paragraph, it states, I quote:

Page 18289

 1             "We have information that UNHCR officers engage in intelligence

 2     and reconnaissance activities which should be kept in mind during checks

 3     and other activities at your disposal."

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5             My question is:  In the 1st Corps, at the time did you receive

 6     similar memos and information, and did you receive information like that

 7     later at the Main Staff in relation to conduct by UNPROFOR?

 8        A.   While I was in the 1st Krajina Corps, I did not receive the

 9     document, the complete document, but we would get excerpts from some data

10     relating to misuses by UNPROFOR and the UNHCR.  We were given guidelines

11     to conduct special checks, at that time, of the UNHCR which was passing

12     through the Gradiska territory towards the line of separation and towards

13     the Muslim side.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And do you have information about intelligence

15     activities conducted by UNHCR members during their passage to the

16     enclaves of Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde?  Do you have any information

17     about that?

18        A.   Members of UNHCR and UNPROFOR sought, very often, ways, how to

19     pass through the territory.  There were instances when their officers

20     were sent, and military observers, to carry out some reconnaissance

21     activities, mostly recording and monitoring positions of the VRS that

22     were registered earlier or noted earlier.  This was supplied to the

23     UNPROFOR command, and according to some data that I had at my disposal,

24     this data was also made available specifically to those in Srebrenica,

25     Muslim forces there.

Page 18290

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us whether that was one of the

 2     reasons to ban the movement of unannounced convoys and to prevent

 3     bringing in technical and other equipment which could be used for

 4     intelligence activities?  Thank you.

 5        A.   That was the only and the main reason why something was not

 6     permitted.  This applied to anything that could be used in intelligence

 7     work.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED [Interpretation] Can we have this 1D874 admitted?  I

10     would like to tender that.  And can we -- I'm sorry.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

13     Exhibit D325.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16             Can we now look at Exhibit D73.  D73.  Well, we can't see it yet.

17     Thank you.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   We can see the document now.  The title of the document is:

20     "Movement by Convoys, Teams, and Individuals from UNPROFOR and

21     Humanitarian Organisations."  Can we now look at the last page of the

22     document so that we could see who drafted it.  Here is a name and surname

23     written in the Latin alphabet in the Serbian.  Could you please read that

24     and tell us whether you know the person who wrote and drafted this

25     document.  Thank you.

Page 18291

 1        A.   It says clearly here "Kapetan," Captain Slavko Novakovic.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now that you have read this, tell us, do you know who

 3     Captain Slavko Novakovic is, whose signature we see here, and can you

 4     tell us what was his post at the time?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Captain Novakovic was in the logistics sector of the Drina Corps,

 6     and besides carrying out his regular duties he was also carrying out the

 7     job of liaison from the corps with the UNPROFOR and the UNHCR, and he

 8     also kept a record of the quantities and problems that he had with the

 9     UNHCR and UNPROFOR during their passage throughout the territory.  He was

10     also in charge of organising and overseeing the work of the check-points.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 2, please.

13     Paragraph with the title:  "Behaviour and Abuse of Mandate by UNPROFOR

14     and Humanitarian Organisations."  This is marked C.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Could you please look at the document.  The first paragraph --

17     you can look at the whole document as well, I don't mind at all.

18        A.   Could you please zoom in a little bit on the paragraph at the top

19     in the heading.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what is your question?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   My question is this:  You have now looked at the document.  Did

24     you receive these documents and was your sector aware of this information

25     from subordinate units, such as this report by Captain Slavko Novakovic?

Page 18292

 1     Thank you.

 2        A.   These reports were sent to Colonel Djurdjic's office.  He

 3     reviewed them in detail, as needed.  And if needed, he would even go to

 4     Captain Novakovic to clarify some details from certain documents with him

 5     in person.  These were abuses that are referred to in the text below,

 6     which required a particular kind of action in the process of approving

 7     the passage of the convoys -- in the process of the passage of the

 8     convoys.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Were you aware of information about abuses of

10     humanitarian aid convoys in the Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde enclaves?

11     Did your office have this information?

12        A.   Our office received relevant information to the effect that

13     certain quantities of assistance were being delivered to the army of the

14     Muslims in Srebrenica.  They didn't specify concrete quantities.  And

15     Colonel Djurdjic, since I was busy with other tasks, always used the

16     opportunity to inform me about these cases.  I didn't receive information

17     as such.  I received information from Colonel Djurdjic and he, in turn,

18     received the appropriate information from the intelligence service.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the last

21     paragraph.  Can we scroll the document up so that we could see the whole

22     paragraph.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I am going to read it.  It's quite small type.  I quote:

25             "Understandably, most cases of attempted smuggling of goods were

Page 18293

 1     in the convoys for Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde, which had the fewest

 2     possibilities for being provisioned apart from humanitarian aid.  The

 3     following goods were those that were most smuggled:  Video cameras,

 4     cameras, film, weapons, radio sets, satellite equipment and antennae,

 5     signaling apparatus, optical devices, night vision apparatus, motor oil,

 6     various parts for devices, anti-freeze, chemical manure, oxygen

 7     cylinders, flak jackets, helmets, sleeping bags."

 8             My question is:  Is this equipment for the needs of the civilians

 9     or for the use of the army that is being referred to here in this

10     paragraph, and can it be used for military purposes?

11        A.   This equipment can be used both for civilian and military uses;

12     however, a flak jacket can only be used by a soldier, and all UNPROFOR

13     members had a sufficient number of flak jackets for their needs.  Other

14     equipment, especially for night recording, was of exceptional importance

15     to the other side so that they could use infrared devices for night

16     monitoring in the area under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska

17     or to infiltrate their own special units.  If they were equipped with

18     this infrared equipment, the binoculars, they could, unhindered, from a

19     certain distance, safely observe and gather data about what was being

20     done in the territory that was under the control of the

21     Army of Republika Srpska.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I stop you for one short moment.

23             Sir, have you any idea when this document was written and sent to

24     the recipient?  Can you take that from the text or from somewhere else?

25     Or do you recall this specific document?

Page 18294

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see a date in the heading.

 2     Generally speaking, I recall such reports as some of the reports which

 3     arrived from Novakovic were archived in Colonel Djurdjic's office.  I

 4     can't say exactly which report this is, though, but they were similar in

 5     terms of content.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please help me.  Where do you find the date, as

 7     you said?  You said, "We can see a date in the heading."  What do you

 8     mean by that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had in mind the time

10     the document was drafted.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you see the date?  Shall we go back to the

12     first page, or what is your proposal?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not the first page.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have the first page.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We do not see a precise date, but

16     the document refers to 1994.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it correct that in the one, two, three --

18     fourth longer paragraph in the middle, it says -- it speaks about

19     personnel who have been working at this task since August 1993.  Do you

20     see that?  Is that correct?  I am asking you because the document itself

21     doesn't bear any specific date when it was drafted.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It mentions the Drina Corps and a

23     reserve captain thereof.  In this case, it is Slavko Novakovic who was a

24     reserve captain.  He was assigned to monitor all UNPROFOR-related

25     matters.  This references to him.

Page 18295

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the next -- and the last paragraph on this

 2     page, you will see a reference to August 1994; is that correct?

 3     Especially to instructions of August 1994.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What would be your conclusion when this document

 6     was drafted?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please bear with me, I'd like to

 8     read it more carefully.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then I take you back to the first paragraph on

10     this page.  In the first paragraph, it says:

11             "Convoys, teams, and individuals from UNPROFOR and others

12     entered the Drina Corps zone of responsibility and moved about therein on

13     a daily basis during 1994 using the following roads:"

14             Can I take it that this must have been drafted sometimes in 1995

15     as it relates to the whole year of 1994; is that correct?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This seems to be a summary report

17     of convoy movements in this period up to August 1994.  Obviously the

18     document was drafted on Djurdjic's request for a specific information and

19     issues.  It was in a collated summary form.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that.

21             Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Slavko, please tell us whether, save for the procedure reported

25     here, was it also known in the Main Staff that the BH Army was also

Page 18296

 1     supplying itself by way of humanitarian aid convoys as well as UNPROFOR

 2     convoys?

 3        A.   General, sir, this was one of the specify sources.  The

 4     Main Staff had a number of other sources and possibilities at their

 5     disposal as well as other information about the use of UNHCR and UNPROFOR

 6     convoys in order to supply military assets and cargo that is not

 7     permitted to those in the enclaves.  Bihac was another problematic area

 8     in that regard.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D458 next.

11     Thank you.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   We can see it here.  I will quote, briefly:

14             "We forward an overview of the amounts of food, materiel, and

15     technical equipment, as well as fuel, issued to the military units in our

16     area in March 1995:  Flour, 18 tonnes; beans, 6 tonnes; kitchen salt,

17     450 kilogrammes; sugar, 470 kilogrammes; edible oil, 1.2 tonnes; canned

18     food, 9.900 pieces; powder milk, 750 kilogrammes.

19             "We also draw your attention to the fact that the specified

20     quantities were taken out of the contingent of humanitarian assistance

21     which arrived in this area via UNHCR and it is our only source of

22     supply."

23             The document was drafted by Mr. Sulejman Hasanovic, who was chief

24     of the defence secretariat in Srebrenica, and he forwarded this letter to

25     the defence secretariat in Tuzla.  Can you tell us what this data is all

Page 18297

 1     about and it comes from their source?

 2        A.   This data, without a doubt, show that the Muslim army was

 3     supplied by way of UNHCR contingents delivered to Srebrenica, and we have

 4     the specific amounts for a specific period of time.

 5        Q.   Can such quantities of food be used to feed the unit, as it was,

 6     in Srebrenica?

 7        A.   In addition to UNPROFOR within the protected area of Srebrenica,

 8     there were armed Muslim units which, to my -- well, first of all, to my

 9     knowledge that unit was supposed to have been demilitarised in the first

10     place; however, they had standing units which received part - a

11     significant part - of their supplies from the UNHCR.  We can see they

12     received oil -- well, we can't really see if it's engine oil or cooking

13     oil, but we see some other items as well.  In other words, this enabled

14     the army in the enclave to provide food for themselves and even to store

15     supplies.

16        Q.   We can see that this refers to the 31st of March, 1995, and it is

17     in reference to the register of donations to the Army of BiH.  We can see

18     that it arrived by way of convoys?

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document into

20     evidence.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Since there is no translation available yet, it

22     will be marked for identification pending translation.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D458 shall be

24     assigned Exhibit D326, marked for identification pending translation.

25     Thank you.

Page 18298

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             We have just seen this document D325 about how the UNHCR, in

 3     March 1995, supplied the Army of BH.

 4             Could we next have D80 in e-court, please.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, to avoid any complications with

 6     numbers, you just referred to document P325, but what we have seen was

 7     D326.  So I misspoke.  I meant "D325."

 8             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   We have D80 in front of us.  It is another document of the

13     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It's Tuzla defence secretariat, or

14     rather, department of that secretariat in the municipality of Srebrenica.

15     The document is dated the 5th of June, 1995, two months following the

16     previous document.  Subject:  Records of donations to the BH Army.  It

17     states:

18             "We hereby submit a list of the quantities of food, materiel, and

19     technical equipment and fuel issued to our military units in our area for

20     the month of May 1995."

21             We see that it refers to 25.900 kilogrammes of flour; 596

22     kilogrammes of sugar; 1.423 litres of cooking oil; 619 kilogrammes of

23     salt; 5 tonnes of beans; 17.020 cold cuts; 100 kilogrammes of powder

24     milk; 62 kilogrammes of juice; 7.780 tins of fish; 117 pieces of breaded

25     fish; 480 kilogrammes of ground meat, et cetera.  Signed by chief of the

Page 18299

 1     defence sector Professor Suljo Hasanovic.

 2             Towards the bottom, the penultimate line, we see the following:

 3             "We wish to note that the above quantities have been separated

 4     out of the humanitarian aid contingent which arrived in the area through

 5     the UNHCR, while some of the food was obtained by the Dutch Battalion."

 6             Did Colonel Djurdjic's office have information about an increase

 7     of food supplies carried by UNHCR convoys with an aim of supplying the

 8     BH Army?  And we also see here that even UNPROFOR provided some of the

 9     supplies.

10        A.   We had information that the UNHCR convoys, and also the

11     Dutch Battalion, partly supplied the Muslim army, especially in

12     Srebrenica.  To my mind, and I am well acquainted with the principles

13     governing the work of the UN, it is conspicuous here that anything that

14     bears the UN logo is somehow co-ordinated.  Most probably the UNHCR

15     transported larger quantities of flour, so it was them rather than

16     UNPROFOR, and the same applies to any other goods because the observers,

17     based on their estimates, would be able to see that the Dutch Battalion

18     didn't need so much flour.  It isn't stated here who transported the

19     goods, it is only mentioned that both gave as much as they could spare.

20     And I'm particularly referring to the Dutch Battalion here.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see D197.

23             Thank you.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you.  You can see a document of the Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 18300

 1     embassy and the Republic of Croatia, more specifically its military

 2     economic mission in Zagreb.  They sent a document to the Bihac office to

 3     the attention of the commander of the BH Army 5th Corps.  All these items

 4     are about military assets, exclusively lethal assets; fuses, ammunition,

 5     grenades, large quantities of all these.  And the last sentence reads:

 6             "Please provide confirmation of received MTS," which stands for

 7     materiel and technical equipment, "or problems concerning reception."

 8             And the following line identifies the UNHCR truck.  It says that

 9     it's license plate number is 10379.  It is signed by Hajrudin Osmanagic

10     for the military attache.  This document is from 1993 at which time you

11     were in the zone of responsibility of the 1st Corps.  Tell us first what

12     this means, truck number UNHCR-10379?  Thank you.

13        A.   This number is the license plate on the truck, UNHCR plus a

14     five-digit number.  Such trucks passed through the zone of responsibility

15     of the 1st Krajina Corps.  They bore the same license plates.  Trying to

16     refresh my memory now.  When the UNHCR convoy returned from the

17     check-point at Gradiska, I am fully certain that it was at the time

18     stated here.  The difference may have been a few days earlier or later.

19     The UNHCR convoy turned around when we wanted to inspect it thoroughly,

20     especially when they saw that there were metal detectors available at the

21     check-point.

22        Q.   Thank you.  During that period you are referring to, what about

23     the convoys that were not to be thoroughly inspected?  Could they

24     transport military equipment that was declared as humanitarian aid?

25        A.   Yes, it was possible for them to pass.

Page 18301

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Were there other means of supply of military

 2     equipment such as the equipment stated here?  Could such equipment pass

 3     through check-points in UNPROFOR vehicles?

 4        A.   General, sir, at that time there was a no-fly zone over BH

 5     territory.  There were also clashes between Croatian and Muslim forces.

 6     Let me add that the supply of Bihac went mostly from Croatia to that

 7     area, and they did not go through RS territory.  I am talking about

 8     humanitarian aid.

 9             Probably, taking into consideration the opposites of supplying an

10     army, there was intelligence and there were observed flights, illicit

11     flights, to Tuzla airfield.

12        Q.   Thank you.  What about the enclaves Srebrenica, Zepa, and

13     Gorazde, could they receive supplies through these convoys or were there

14     other options available?

15        A.   There were other options.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Which other options do you know of that could be used

17     to supply military units in the enclaves of Srebrenica, Zepa, and

18     Gorazde?

19        A.   There were also instances of smuggling.  There were instances of

20     dropping equipment from planes.  I think those were C-135 planes.  This

21     plane was identified a couple of times based on the specific sound it

22     produces.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see document

25     65 ter 04911.  Thank you.

Page 18302

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   We can see it.  This is a document of the Main Staff of the VRS.

 3     It's dated 9 January 1995, and addressed to the UNPROFOR command in

 4     Sarajevo.  It was signed by Chief of Staff,

 5     Lieutenant-General Manojlo Milovanovic.  I don't think I need to read it.

 6     You can see it.

 7             What is this document about?

 8        A.   This is a document sent by the Main Staff to the UNPROFOR command

 9     in Sarajevo.  To be more precise, to the UNPROFOR office at Pale.  And

10     they forwarded it to their command in Sarajevo.  The document is

11     marked 06.  These are the first two digits, which means that it was

12     entered in the list of documents of the office of Colonel Djurdjic.

13             Could we please zoom in on the letterhead?  Could we scroll down?

14     Here we see 18 activities of convoys, 18 crossings that were approved to

15     go through the territory of the RS; for example, convoy number so-and-so,

16     its route, and the time-frame, for example, 10 January, 1995.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Apart from travelling through RS territory and having

18     the approval to cross the front line to go to BH Army controlled

19     territory, that is an army that was at war with the VRS, and go into

20     enclaves such as Sarajevo, Srebrenica, which means that they had to cross

21     more than one front line; is that correct?  Thank you.

22        A.   Each convoy is different.  The one going from Kiseljak to

23     Srebrenica or Gorazde or Zepa had to cross two demarcation lines.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, who has the authority in an army to

25     authorise a convoy to cross the front line from enemy-held territory to

Page 18303

 1     your own territory or in the opposite direction?  Thank you.

 2        A.   For crossing from one side to the other, that kind of authority

 3     is only with the commander or with a person authorised expressly by him,

 4     personally by him.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  When you say "commander," do you mean the commander

 6     of the army or a lower-level commander?  Thank you.

 7        A.   General, sir, this is a document of the Main Staff.  It's the

 8     commander of the Main Staff of the VRS who has that authority.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 16 of this

11     document in the Serbian language.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I have a question for you.  You said on

13     page 46, lines 7 through 8:

14             "The document was sent by the Main Staff to UNPROFOR command in

15     Sarajevo.  To be more precise, to the UNPROFOR office at Pale."

16             This was what was recorded.  Where did you take that from, that

17     it was sent to Pale and not to Sarajevo?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the normal procedure

19     for communication - and the only one - was between the office and the

20     liaison officers of UNPROFOR at Pale who had equipment and interpreters.

21     One of their basic tasks was to maintain communication with

22     Milos Djurdjic's office regarding these convoys.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is your recollection and not what was

24     written in the document; correct?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.  We had no other

Page 18304

 1     means of communication.  The only link we had was with the office and the

 2     office went about this work, which means that the document had to go

 3     through the office toward the UNPROFOR command, because they translated

 4     the document and forwarded it to UNPROFOR command using other channels of

 5     communication.  I personally was in that office a couple of times, and I

 6     knew how they were able to communicate.  I mean, the office with the

 7     UNPROFOR command.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, your last question for today.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I called up this document that we have on the screen which speaks

13     about the movement of UNPROFOR on 10 January between Kiseljak and

14     Srebrenica and its return on 12 January, 1995.  This is all stated in the

15     document.  And then underneath we see a handwritten part:

16             "Last time in Srebrenica, 34 cubic metres of diesel transported

17     on 3 January 1995.  Requested quantity in line with agreed weekly

18     quantities.  Verify quantities."

19             What does this tell you as a person who was appointed to the

20     office where you worked?  What is this document about?

21        A.   I can tell that this is an original document, signed by the chief

22     of the BH command, General Brinkman.  This is a regular convoy

23     notification that we routinely received; whereas, the handwritten part is

24     also signed or, rather, initialed.  It's initialed by Zdravko Tolimir.

25     In the upper part, that is the first line of the handwritten part, "last

Page 18305

 1     time we transported 34 cubic metres of diesel to Srebrenica," and there

 2     is a date, 3.1.95, probably, the last digit isn't legible.  35 cubic

 3     litres, that 34.000 litres.  It was Djurdjic's job to estimate whether

 4     these were appropriate quantities required for the transportation.  I am

 5     not sure whether it's for the UNPROFOR or the UNHCR.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Could we please scroll up so we see

 7     the top of the page.

 8        Q.   Have a look at number 2, please.

 9        A.   We see in item 2 that the requested amount was sufficient for

10     five days, but I am wondering - as a military man - why they needed so

11     much for only five days.

12        Q.   Was this approved, then?  I mean, please have a look at the

13     handwritten note at the bottom of the page.

14        A.   Could we see the bottom of the page, then, please.  We see here

15     that the requested amount was within the weekly arranged amounts.  This

16     was obviously previously agreed upon.

17        Q.   Can you tell us where it was agreed upon, if you know?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I have to stop you.  You have time

19     enough for tomorrow.  I said just some minutes ago the last question, now

20     you have had four questions.  We have to stop.

21             But I would like to ask you, Mr. Tolimir, you said this is at

22     page 16 of a lengthy document.  Was the document signed by

23     Mr. Milovanovic, the first page of it?  Just a clarification, please,

24     since I can't read it.  There is no translation available.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, precisely.  On page 1 we

Page 18306

 1     have a list of documents and what was approved, and on page 16 is the

 2     document I requested.  Thank you.  It is on page 16 of the English

 3     version.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There is no English version.  But we may deal

 5     with that tomorrow.  We have to adjourn for the day, and we will resume

 6     tomorrow morning in this courtroom at 9.00.

 7             And sir, please take note that it is not allowed to have contact

 8     to either party during the break.

 9             We will resume tomorrow morning.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 24th day

13                           of January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.