Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18307

 1                           Tuesday, 24 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom and

 6     around the courtroom.  The witness should be brought in, please.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, Mr. Kralj.  Welcome back to the

 9     courtroom.  I have to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth

10     you made yesterday at the beginning of your testimony still applies.

11     Mr. Tolimir is continuing his examination-in-chief.

12                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO KRALJ [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  May

16     there be peace in this house, and I wish that today's hearing and the

17     entire proceedings be concluded in keeping with God's will and not my own

18     and in the best possible way for all of us.

19                           Examination by Mr. Tolimir:  [Continued]

20        Q.   [Interpretation] I would like to wish good morning to Mr. Slavko

21     and wish him a pleasant stay among us.

22        A.   Thank you.

23        Q.   Yesterday, we talked about document 49111, page 16 in the Serbian

24     version.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  49111.

Page 18308

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I would like to make use of

 2     this opportunity to correct myself, as I have stated yesterday that we

 3     have that page in translation, whereas we do not.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am quite sure it should be 65 ter 4911.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Kralj, I asked you yesterday what this document represented.

 8     So as to refresh our memory, could you please tell us what you said.  In

 9     your own words, what does it amount to since we do not have it

10     translated?

11        A.   Could we please zoom in on the header.  This is a notification of

12     movement for a Dutch convoy from Kiseljak to Srebrenica on the

13     10th of January.  They were supposed to return on the

14     12th of January, 1995.  We see the route that the convoy was supposed to

15     take as well as the purpose of the convoy in question, which was to

16     transport fuel in order to reach the levels required for a period of five

17     days.

18        Q.   Thank you.  As you said, was this not an UNPROFOR request,

19     despite it being in Serbian?  For the Chamber's sake, can you tell us

20     whether this was an UNPROFOR request which was forwarded to the

21     Main Staff?

22        A.   It was an UNPROFOR request forwarded to the Main Staff.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at item 5 next, which we also saw

24     yesterday.  We have the type of cargo specified that was supposed to go

25     to Srebrenica:  Personal equipment, equipment for vehicles, mail for

Page 18309

 1     personnel in Srebrenica, daily meals for the drivers, and 35 cubic metres

 2     of diesel oil, as well as a Motorola radio.

 3             My question is this:  Was UNPROFOR supposed to specify the exact

 4     amount of fuel they wanted to transport in this notification?

 5        A.   As part of notifications, UNPROFOR was supposed to stipulate the

 6     exact amounts of fuel.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You can see a handwritten note towards the bottom.

 8     You recognised the initials as mine.  Does it not refer to weekly

 9     arranged levels, or, rather, it says, "The requested amount fits within

10     the weekly arranged levels."

11        A.   We can clearly see that the amount they requested was within the

12     limit that was arranged for any single week.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Chamber how the quantities were

14     agreed upon?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see Mr. Vanderpuye on his feet.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning, to you.

18     I don't mean to interrupt for long, but Mr. Kralj and Mr. Tolimir had

19     indicated a certain set of initials at the bottom of this page.  I see at

20     least -- I think, at least, two sets of either a signature or an initial,

21     and I wondered if he could identify for the record which he is referring

22     to.  In addition, there are some initials at the top of the page as well,

23     and I thought it might be helpful to clear that up at this point.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

25             Mr. Tolimir, perhaps you can ask the witness to encircle the

Page 18310

 1     relevant initials he is talking about and you are talking about, with the

 2     assistance of the Court Usher.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Kralj, please circle the initials in the upper right-hand

 6     side corner.  Can you tell us what they stand for.  And next circle the

 7     bottom set of initials.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you tell us whose initials these are, in your

10     understanding?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The initials at the top are those

12     of Zdravko Tolimir.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you please put a number 1 next to the

14     circle so that we can distinguish between the two.

15             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  Can you tell us what the note in the

19     circle number 1 mean.  What do they tell you as someone who read this

20     document in your office?

21        A.   This means that General Tolimir suggested that it is okay to

22     approve the quantities requested and the notification as such, as

23     everything was in keeping with what had previously been arranged.

24        Q.   Since I am unable to follow the transcript - Aleksandar is - can

25     you tell us --

Page 18311

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 2             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a part of the

 3     answer missing:

 4             [In English] "... in keeping with what had previously been

 5     arranged."

 6             [Interpretation] The witness also mentioned where it was

 7     arranged.  He also mentioned where it was arranged, and that is what is

 8     missing from the transcript.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, could you please repeat the last part of

10     your sentence.  Obviously it was not recorded.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The fuel quantities were arranged

12     as part of the central joint commission.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  But I think Mr. Tolimir asked you --

14     for a full understanding of these initials, what does it literally mean?

15     You see a sign on the left side, then a slash, and then another sign.

16     Could you explain that, what it means correctly?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To anyone processing this document,

18     this means that the quantity was approved --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which -- no --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- as part of the work of the joint

21     commission.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You misunderstood my question.  The sign on the

23     left side, what does it mean?  Is it a "da" or what is it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is a "yes."

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And on the right side, what does that stand for?

Page 18312

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zdravko Tolimir's initials.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   At the bottom of the document we see the handwritten note.  We

 7     also see another set of initials which I would kindly ask you to circle

 8     and tell us who they belong to.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Can you tell us what the difference is between the initials below

11     the text and the initials at the top where we have the "yes" which you

12     marked with number 1.  What is the difference?

13        A.   One is in the Latinic script, the other one in Cyrillic, but both

14     sets of initials are those of Zdravko Tolimir.

15        Q.   So the difference is in the script, as in the Serbian language we

16     use both.  Does it say that the quantities were approved and does it also

17     say where they had been arranged?

18        A.   In the bottom part, it says clearly that the requested amounts

19     are in keeping with what had been arranged by the

20     central joint commission.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the sake of the record, you tried to put a

23     number 2 to the second circle.  It looks like a question mark.  Could

24     you complete this number 2, please, so that we have it clear on the

25     record and there is no misunderstanding.

Page 18313

 1             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now it looks more like a number 2.  And can you

 3     tell us, in the circle number 2 is that Cyrillic or Latin?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Latin script.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And on top of the page, what kind of script is

 6     that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cyrillic.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 9             Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Please tell us whether important supplies and their amounts, in

13     particular fuel, were arranged at the level of the

14     central joint commission?

15        A.   Quantities of important supplies, such as fuel, were arranged at

16     the level of the central joint commission.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender page 16 and the

18     entire document.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The entire document will be received as an

20     exhibit, and after that the marked page number 16.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 4911 shall be

22     assigned Exhibit D327.  And the page 16 of the Exhibit D327, marked by

23     the witness in court, shall be assigned Exhibit D328.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Could we

Page 18314

 1     please have 65 ter 0512 [as interpreted] in e-court.  Thank you.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was just told, since we don't have a

 4     translation of the last document, D327 should be marked for

 5     identification, pending translation.

 6             Mr. Gajic.

 7             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we wish to call up

 8     05012 at this time.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have the document in front of

10     us.  It is a document issued by the Main Staff of the Army of

11     Republika Srpska, dated the 3rd of February, 1995.  It was sent from the

12     Main Staff to the UNPROFOR HQ in Sarajevo, signed by on behalf of the

13     Chief of Staff, General Miletic.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can I direct your attention to item 3 which reads:

16             "Convoy number 04-048/02, was given clearance for the 4th to Zepa

17     and the return journey on the 5th of February, 1995."

18             This is my question:  Is this a typographical error or ...

19     [Microphone not activated]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for Mr. Tolimir.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Does this document contain the decision giving clearance to the

24     convoy?

25        A.   I'm sorry.  I didn't hear the question.

Page 18315

 1        Q.   Does this document contain the decision granting clearance to

 2     this convoy?

 3        A.   Yes, it does.  The convoy had already been given clearance and a

 4     document was sent out to UNPROFOR.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, where does the

 6     document say that the convoy has been given clearance?

 7        A.   Item 3, convoy number 04-048 was given clearance for the 4th to

 8     Zepa and the return journey on the 5th of February, 1995.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Is this, too, something that was agreed upon by the

10     central joint commission?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Was this clearance given for the benefit of our forces so that

13     they know that they must not strike the convoy, or is it given for the

14     sake of UNPROFOR?

15        A.   This document was sent to UNPROFOR and not to our forces.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 7 shown in

18     e-court.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

20             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is obviously an

21     error in e-court.  Now we have the right document on our screens.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We have

25     page 7 in front of us.

Page 18316

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Is this the request based on which convoy number 04-048 was given

 3     clearance?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Can this please be enlarged?  This is the UNPROFOR request for

 5     clearance of the convoy.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And is it true that this is what item 1 reads, and

 7     I am quoting now:

 8             "Kindly give clearance to the Ukrainian convoy along the route

 9     from Sarajevo to Zepa on the 4th of February and back on the

10     5th of February, 1994."

11             This is my question:  Is this a typographical error, and were

12     such errors frequent in the documents of the sort?

13        A.   There were errors in such documents that were received from

14     UNPROFOR.

15        Q.   The document should rightly read "1995" rather than "1994"; is

16     that right?

17        A.   That's right, General, sir.

18        Q.   Thank you.  How did you proceed when an error such as this one

19     was involved?

20        A.   Whenever we observed an error in a document, we consulted with

21     the office of UNPROFOR.  And if we were unable to solve the problem,

22     Colonel Djurdjic would try to do so in his dealings with General Tolimir

23     and see if the issue had been addressed by the central joint commission.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at item 2.  It reads:

25             "The purpose of convoy, fuel supplies."

Page 18317

 1             That's item 2.

 2             And item 6 reads:

 3             "The convoy for Zepa will carry:  2.500 litres of diesel oil;

 4     1.000 litres of petrol; 200 litres of oil; oil for hydraulics, 20 drums

 5     or barrels; personal equipment and the equipment for vehicles."

 6             Was an across-the-board clearance given for this cargo?  Were

 7     these clearances random or were some sort of criteria involved?  Thank

 8     you.

 9        A.   There were criteria in place as well as consumption quotas that

10     had been agreed by the central joint commission and which were applied.

11     We can see here that mention is made of 20 drums or barrels and we don't

12     know what their volume is.  We don't know if they are empty or full.

13     This is something that had to be looked into.

14        Q.   Thank you.  What does the handwritten note at the bottom of the

15     page say?  Would you please read that for Their Honours since we don't

16     have a translation.

17        A.   At the very bottom it reads, "Yes," followed by General Tolimir's

18     signature, and the sentence reads, "Clearance is given since these are

19     the agreed weekly requirements," in other words, 24 plus 7 equals 31.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So was approval or clearance given despite the fact

21     that there was a "no" written on this document?  And you will tell

22     Their Honours who wrote that.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have the upper part

24     of the document shown to the witness.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What we have here is a crossed out

Page 18318

 1     "yes," followed by a "no" which is circled.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There is more handwritten or handwriting on the

 3     top of that page.  Could you please read that into the record.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can it please be enlarged somewhat.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please read that aloud.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "They are bringing in fuel in

 7     excessive quantities and the enclave is 2.5 by 0.7 kilometres," signed by

 8     Mladic.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now explain to us if what we can read at the

11     top of the document was written all by the same hand and if the

12     handwriting at the bottom matches the one at the top?  Now you have the

13     entire document in front of you.

14        A.   The handwritten note at the top is in Cyrillic; whereas, the

15     bottom handwritten note below the signature is in Latin.  The signature

16     at the top is by Mladic and at the bottom by Tolimir.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now tell Their Honours the following:  This

18     document which contains comments by both these individuals who placed

19     their initials, was it authoritative enough for someone to judge whether

20     the convoy in question has been given clearance or was some other

21     document still required to assess that?

22        A.   This is an unusual procedure.  These positions are being

23     cross-referenced and aligned, and of course a clear indication would have

24     been given either by phone or on the document sent to UNPROFOR, which

25     would state whether the convoy had been received clearance -- had

Page 18319

 1     received clearance or not.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 1 of this

 3     document that we were just looking at as well as page 7 of the same

 4     document simultaneously.  So can we have both these pages on our screen,

 5     please.  Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please look at item 3 which concerns the convoy in question.  Can

 8     you tell us if the convoy was given clearance despite the two different

 9     opinions given by two individuals?

10        A.   Item 3?

11        Q.   Yes, what does it read?  Thank you.

12        A.   Item 3 clearly indicates that convoy number 01-048/02

13     [as interpreted] was given clearance for the 4th to Zepa and the return

14     journey on the 5th of February 1995, and this is the definitive decision.

15        Q.   Can you please circle number 3, item 3, so that we can see that

16     it's connected.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Thank you.  Please indicate where Tolimir provided his opinion

19     and where Mladic did.  And please mark it with a 1 and 2 respectively.

20     First circle it and then put a number next to it.

21        A.   [Marks]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you tell us again, what does number 1

23     indicate?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The number 1 indicates that

25     General Mladic refused clearance for this convoy because he failed to

Page 18320

 1     take note that these were actually weekly quantities that had been agreed

 2     upon.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And number 1 is -- indicates that this was signed

 4     by Mr. Tolimir; is that correct?  Number 2.  Number 2.  Number 2.  Sorry,

 5     I misspoke.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The notation next to number 2

 7     followed after additional consultations between the generals, and he

 8     clarified by phone and in writing that these are weekly arranged

 9     quantities with which Mladic finally agreed.  Due to technical reasons,

10     the document itself was not sent back to the general, but this was

11     sufficient for the person processing the document that the UNPROFOR

12     request in question was finally okayed.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So despite both seeing -- seeing both "yes" and "no" on the same

15     paper, the convoy was finally cleared; is that correct?

16        A.   The convoy was cleared, as can be seen in item 3 of the document

17     sent to UNPROFOR.

18        Q.   Thank you.  If we come across such documents where we see both a

19     "yes" and a "no," do we need to go back to the main document which is at

20     the top of the other documents in question in order to see what the final

21     outcome was?

22        A.   In order to establish whether a convoy was cleared or not, the

23     document sent to UNPROFOR command is the one that needs to be looked

24     into.

25        Q.   Can we see from this document that General Mladic honoured what

Page 18321

 1     had been arranged by the central joint commission, despite the fact that

 2     he may not have been aware of exact conclusions and arrangements?

 3        A.   This is a text book example in which we can see that

 4     General Mladic agreed to everything that had been arranged at the level

 5     of the central joint commission.  If he lacked certain information upon

 6     additional consultation, he eventually allowed the convoy into Zepa.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 0512

 8     admitted.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Stop, please.  First, I would kindly ask you if

10     you are tendering these marked pages?  Otherwise, we will lose the

11     markings.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Please

13     admit the marked pages first, and then the document sent to UNPROFOR

14     which is 65 ter 0512.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The two pages on the screen at the moment, marked

16     by the witness, will be received as an exhibit.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Page 1 and 7 of the 65 ter document 5012 shall be

18     assigned Exhibit D329.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

20             Judge Mindua has a question in relation to this page.

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness.  Mr. Kralj, I would

22     just like to get a precision.  I did follow you, and if I am not

23     mistaken, you told us that the requests coming from the UNPROFOR were

24     treated according to some criteria.  And when General Mladic got the

25     explanations that he needed, he was usually very favourable to all the

Page 18322

 1     requests.  But I would like to know the following:  When you circled

 2     number 1, if I understood correctly, you said that this is the

 3     handwriting of Mr. Mladic.  Is that what you said?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Thank you

 6     very much, indeed.

 7             So General Mladic was not in favour of this request initially.

 8     Do you know why he had refused, initially?  Is the reason specified in

 9     this document?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The reason is specified in the

11     document.  He objected to frequently deliveries of supply; whereas, the

12     actual surface area was very small.  He thought that there would not be

13     need of much fuel, and he also believed that such frequent shipments of

14     fuel were unnecessary for such a small area.  General Mladic received

15     many such documents and he's familiar with the terrain there.  He simply

16     thought that the quantities were too big and should not be let through.

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  So at the

18     bottom under 2 which you underlined or circled, you said this is a

19     comment made by Mr. Tolimir who is trying to convince General Mladic that

20     this is a well-founded request, and General Tolimir's comments are based

21     on the agreement that was reached by the joint commission; is that right?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In item 2, we see that it was in

23     keeping with the agreed weekly amounts arranged at the level of the

24     central joint commission.  General Mladic did accept that, finally, but

25     the consultation must have taken place by phone.  Tolimir confirmed on

Page 18323

 1     the document that this is what had been arranged.  In other words, based

 2     on the notation at the bottom, we conclude that this document was not

 3     originally sent to Zdravko Tolimir but it went to Mladic who did not know

 4     that this had been arranged at the level of the commission.

 5             We can see here that General Mladic later on allowed to have the

 6     convoy go through, but it followed a process of consultation which is not

 7     something we can see on the document.  The general could have made a

 8     phone call or issued an order to either Djurdjic or Tolimir to let the

 9     convoy through.  This is confirmed in the document in item 3.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for this

11     clarification.  I will stop here for now because you may not know that,

12     but we have heard some UNPROFOR officers here who were complaining about

13     the fact that the quantities received were very small, so this is why I

14     was trying to understand how the delivery was defined.  But thank you

15     very much.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put another question to you.  You just

17     said, on page 16, line 23 and 24, that the document was not originally

18     sent to Zdravko Tolimir but it went to Mladic.  Are you saying that this

19     document was first sent to Mladic and then went to Mr. Tolimir?  Or was

20     it first sent to Mr. Tolimir and then forwarded to Mr. Mladic and then

21     back to Tolimir?  I am asking you that because of the handwritten note

22     "da" on the top of the page which was crossed out.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we look at the text which is

24     above general's signature, we can see that it says that the last fuel

25     shipment was on the 24th of April, 1995, in the amount of 300 litres of

Page 18324

 1     gas.  It was probably written by Djurdjic because he had such

 2     information.  Next, the document was sent to Mladic who could say "yes"

 3     and then cross it out and then say "no." Such things happened, too.

 4     After additional consultation with Tolimir, he did take the document into

 5     consideration because it had been arranged at the level of the

 6     central joint commission.  It means that General Tolimir provided

 7     General Mladic with information to the extent that these were weekly

 8     agreed upon levels, and the -- and then Mladic finally agreed to the

 9     convoy, which is something we can see from the document which was finally

10     sent to UNPROFOR.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you that you tried to clarify this.  Now we

12     have additional problems.  You were, I take it, referring to the

13     handwritten notes above the signature of Mr. Tolimir, and then you said

14     it means that the last few shipment was on the 24th of April.  Can you

15     look at this on the screen again?  Perhaps that part could be enlarged.

16     Are you sure that this is 24th of April, 1995?  It looks slightly

17     different.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can see now that

19     it is actually the 24th of January.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The digits looked similar.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  You said, at least I heard

23     it in the interpretation, that you were talking about 300 litres of

24     gasoline.  Could you check that, please, again.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is actually 3.000 litres.

Page 18325

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  This note with the reference to 3.000

 2     litre in gas, whose handwriting is that, if you know?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To me, it looks like

 4     Colonel Djurdjic's handwriting.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 6             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  By your

 8     leave, I'd like to ask you again to admit this into evidence, and then we

 9     can move on.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it we have seen page 1 and page 7 of this

11     document.  I have no idea how many pages this set of documents encompass.

12     Do you really need all pages or only page 1 and 7?  I am asking you,

13     Mr. Tolimir, just for the benefit of the translators, if that is really

14     necessary to translate all the other pages.

15             Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, documents of this

17     kind, as we can see from the witness's clarifications, include this

18     page number 1 containing the document for UNPROFOR, and each of the

19     decisions is backed up by requested which may or may not have written

20     notes on them.  Mr. Butler testified to the same thing and I believe

21     General Manojlo Milovanovic who explained the whole procedure, and I

22     believe the whole package should be admitted.  The attached documents

23     explain the cover page and vice versa, depending on the type of analysis

24     we are to conduct here.  It would be quite useful if we admitted the

25     entire document as was practice so far.

Page 18326

 1             However, if there are concerns on the part of the Chamber, then

 2     we can deal with the issue later on so that we can check each and every

 3     page of the document to see what is needed.  Perhaps not necessary to put

 4     each and every document to the witness, or introduce it into evidence

 5     through particular witnesses, but Defence will ask the Chamber to have

 6     some of them admitted even without the presence of particular witnesses.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was just a translation issue, Mr. Gajic, and

 8     not the question if each and every page should be put to the witness.

 9     The whole document has 14 pages, and it's only the question of

10     translation and the workload for the translation unit.  We should mark

11     the whole document for identification, pending a decision by the Defence

12     which pages are really needed and pending translation of these pages.

13             Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I should add,

15     Mr. President, that I do concur with Mr. Gajic, at least in part.  There

16     are -- all of the approvals which you saw on page 1 of this document, for

17     instance, or denials of convoy requests are supported, to some extent, by

18     this kind of colloquy that you can see on the following documents:  Yes,

19     or no, or with qualification, and so on and so forth.  And that's the

20     reason why I think it's important to have that material translated, if

21     not the text of each request itself, and certainly the notes relating to

22     the text is important.  As you can see here, we have a particular page

23     where General Tolimir, for example, reaches a difference conclusion than

24     General Mladic as concerns the disposition of a particular convoy

25     request, and I think that's important to be in the record.  Whether it's

Page 18327

 1     best in the record translated or untranslated is another story, but I

 2     think to the extent that we are translating anything at all, it should be

 3     included.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Since the parties

 5     agree on that, I withdraw my concern and the whole document should be

 6     translated and will be marked for identification, pending translation.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 05012 shall be

 8     assigned Exhibit D330, marked for identification, pending translation.

 9     Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, and thank

12     you to Mr. Vanderpuye.

13             Can we first call up in e-court 65 ter 04899.  It's about to

14     appear on our screens.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   This is another document issued by the Main Staff of the

17     Army of Republika Srpska, on the 4th of January, 1995, which was

18     addressed to the UNPROFOR HQ in Sarajevo.  We can see at the bottom

19     that -- it reads at the bottom:

20             "On behalf of the Chief of Staff,

21     Lieutenant-General Manojlo Milovanovic."

22             Is this a document which is authoritative enough to indicate that

23     the convoys referred to in the document were given clearance?  Thank you.

24        A.   I would like to see General Milovanovic's signature, please.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be shown?  It's on page 2 in

Page 18328

 1     e-court.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the usual sort of document

 3     sent to the UNPROFOR command, and it is the authoritative version

 4     compared to all the correspondence that proceeded it which indicates that

 5     a given convoy was given clearance and that UNPROFOR may proceed to take

 6     all the measures in preparation for it.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 11 in Serbian

10     and page 19 in English shown in e-court.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   We can tell that this is a request to give clearance to a Dutch

13     convoy along the route from Kiseljak to Srebrenica on the 5th of January

14     and the return journey on the 7th of January of 1995.

15             Paragraph 2 reads:

16             "The purpose of the convoy:  Food supplies to meet the

17     requirements for seven days, spare parts required for the maintenance of

18     vehicles and generator, engineering equipment necessary for the

19     maintenance and adequate preparation of camps for the winter, vehicles

20     capable of move along snowy surfaces," et cetera.

21             And then can we look at the cargo.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And that's on page 2 in English.

23     Thank you.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you tell Their Honours what is the purposes of this

Page 18329

 1     handwritten note at the bottom?

 2        A.   The purpose of this note is to let the commander know how many

 3     soldiers there are, the quantities of food received, et cetera, in order

 4     for him to be able to make the appropriate decision.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And can you tell us whose handwriting it is?

 6        A.   It is Djurdjic's.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us if the late Colonel Djurdjic, God

 8     rest his soul, accurately followed all the convoys announced and the

 9     quantities involved, and did he keep proper records of it?

10        A.   Colonel Djurdjic kept precise records the quantities agreed and

11     cleared.  He was prepared at all times, because he knew that at some

12     point the general may ask him to produce records to state the exact

13     quantities of cargo that were allowed to pass through over the previous

14     several months.

15        Q.   Can you tell Their Honours if he was qualified to do the job?

16     Was he good enough for the job?

17        A.   Colonel Djurdjic had his military specialty in technical

18     [Realtime transcript read in error "tactical"] issues, and he was an

19     expert in logistics.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I know that certain

23     issues may be technical and military terms so they are difficult to

24     translate.  And this point where it says "military specialty and tactical

25     issues," I don't think the witness said that.

Page 18330

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note that we said "technical

 2     issues."

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this correction.  Page 23, line 11,

 4     it should read "in technical issues."

 5             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have now page 12 in Serbian

 7     and 21 in English so that we can see the entire text written by hand.

 8     Thank you.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   We have initials here, and I'll read this out.  I am reading the

11     entire handwritten note beneath the signature block and

12     General Brinkman's signature:

13             "Should we accept the minimum quota needed by a soldier per day?

14     It means that the quantities of 20.300 kilogrammes would suffice for some

15     20 days.  So I suggest that you reduce this by 50 per cent according to

16     the specific needs.

17             "Ski equipment and sleighs:  No!"

18             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter didn't catch what was the

19     last "no."

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   So basically General Mladic said that he would agree with the

22     50 per cent.  Can you tell us is this indeed Mr. Djurdjic's handwriting

23     and Mladic's signature, and is this how it really went?  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have the answer first.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I suppose so, Mr. President, but the objection

Page 18331

 1     is to the question.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then I will let you go first.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             I object to the question because it's a leading question.  There

 5     is nothing in the record so far as concerns General Mladic's input in the

 6     disposition of this particular convoy request.  The second thing is I

 7     believe that the interpreter indicated that they hadn't caught something

 8     that General Tolimir -- I see that it's on page 24, transcript line,

 9     looks like 10, something that General Tolimir had mentioned in the

10     question itself.  So it might perhaps be best to have that cleared up

11     before addressing the other problems with the question.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  To resolve this problem, I would like

13     to ask the witness.

14             You see on the left side of the screen at the last line there is

15     written something.  Could you read that again, please?  Only the last

16     line.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Ski equipment and sleighs:  No!

18             "Plexiglass:  No!"

19             Signed by Milos Djurdjic.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please encircle, with the assistance of

21     the Court Usher, the signature or the initials of Mr. Djurdjic.

22             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please put a number 1 next to the

24     circle.

25             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

Page 18332

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you have any idea what the sign, the

 2     handwritten sign, below this circle means or indicates?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sign below the circle indicates

 4     that the note, both of them, both notes were read by Mladic, one tick

 5     means one note, the other tick for the other note, and then there is his

 6     "yes" encircled, which means that he agreed with what Colonel Djurdjic

 7     stated there.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The black circle handwritten on the left side of

 9     the screen, you are indicating that this was written by Mr. Mladic, is

10     this correct, where we can see a "da"?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is that the only handwriting on this page you

13     would say that it was made by Mr. Mladic?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we see the top of the page as

15     well.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, sorry.  We can't.  We would lose the marking.

17     You see in this circle a "da," and right next to that inside the circle,

18     what does that mean?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where you can read "da" for "yes,"

20     this means that Mladic agrees that -- agrees with Djurdjic's proposal

21     that what was stated above should be reduced by 50 per cent.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  My question was:  What is written just right here

23     on the right side of the "da" inside of the circle, what is written

24     there?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says "da, 50 per cent."

Page 18333

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How do you know that this was made by Mr. Mladic?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was familiar with the documents

 3     and his manner of work.  He would usually underline what he considered

 4     important and this is his signature.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  This is his

 6     handwriting.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             Mr. Tolimir, I would suggest that you tender this marked document

 9     first and then continue.  Are you tendering it?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             I would also ask the witness to circle this circled part, inside

12     which there are the words "da" and "50 per cent," and then I would like

13     to tender the document.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think this is not necessary

15     because we have clearly indicated that it is already encircled in the

16     original handwriting, otherwise people, I think, with this new circle

17     make it illegible.  So I think it's clear on the record what we are

18     talking about.  Would you agree?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, I agree,

20     but maybe then the witness can merely mark the other circle with a

21     figure 2 to indicate that there is a difference in handwriting.  Thank

22     you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's a very good idea.

24             Sir, please put a number 2 to the black circle above the blue

25     one.

Page 18334

 1             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             I take it, Mr. Tolimir, that you are tendering this marked

 4     document; is that correct?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  That is

 6     correct.  I seek to tender this marked document.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, page 12 of the 65 ter document 4899

 9     shall be assigned Exhibit D331.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Kralj, while we still have this document on our screens, can

14     you tell us what the phrase "minimum norm of the needs," as translated

15     means?  And it is underlined here, 1450 grams per soldier per day.

16     Please explain what this means.  Thank you.

17        A.   These are standards at which Djurdjic arrived while showing the

18     needs of one soldier, and this is fit for both our soldiers and for

19     UNPROFOR soldiers.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you think that this minimum standard covers food,

21     water, and juice or food only?

22        A.   Djurdjic had the standards for food, for juice, for water, the

23     entire logistics aspect including medical needs.

24        Q.   I may not have been precise enough in my question.  Does this

25     suggestion or proposal made by Djurdjic pertain only to food or does it

Page 18335

 1     also include water and juice?  Thank you.

 2        A.   In this specific case, this is only about food.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell the Trial Chamber how Djurdjic arrived at

 4     these minimum standards, minimum requirements of food per soldier.  Thank

 5     you.

 6        A.   Djurdjic collected information from logistics expert from the

 7     relevant bodies of the VRS.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I am about to move on to a different topic, so

 9     perhaps the Trial Chamber would prefer taking the break now.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  However, I would ask you if you are tendering

11     this whole document?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but we will continue dealing

13     with it in the following session.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we would come back to that problem later.

15     It's a good idea to have the first break now, and we will resume five

16     minutes before 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Please continue.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             Could we have the page before this one on the screen, please.

24     This is merely the continuation.  Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 18336

 1        Q.   It is obvious that this is page 1 of this document, and there is

 2     a handwritten note at the top of the page.  Could you please read it out

 3     for the benefit of the Trial Chamber?  Thank you.

 4        A.   This notification is approved with the remark that skiing

 5     equipment is not approved because the Netherlands is a flat country

 6     without mountains or hills or skiing slopes -- or, rather, skiing units,

 7     so that there is no need for alpine skiing.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us whose signature this is and whether

 9     this says anything else?

10        A.   This is General Mladic's signature, and under the word "yes"

11     there are the words "with restrictions."

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In this case I think we all can confirm that the

13     Netherlands are really a flat country.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Thank you.  Since General Mladic's initials are missing in the

16     English translation, I kindly ask you to circle the initials with the

17     assistance of the Usher.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this marked

21     document so that we don't lose the marking.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The marked page will be received as an exhibit.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, page 11 of the 65 ter document 4899

24     shall be assigned Exhibit D332.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

Page 18337

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             Could we see the entire page now.  Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Let us look at item 4.  There are a number of handwritten notes

 5     and some numbers are circled.  Do you know whose handwriting this is and

 6     who made these notes?  Can you tell by the handwriting?

 7        A.   This was written by General Mladic.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  At the bottom of the page, there are also handwritten

 9     notes and in the left margin.  What does this note in the left margin

10     say?  Thank you.  In the lower left corner, can you see this?  I cannot

11     read all of it.  Maybe you can.

12        A.   Could we scroll to the left, maybe.  The last word is barely

13     legible.  It might be "approve this," but I can't see the beginning of

14     the word in the second line.

15        Q.   And these four lines about which you said that were written by

16     Djurdjic?

17        A.   This is a different hand.

18        Q.   Thank you.  If this really says "approve this" or "answer them,"

19     was this written by a clerk in your office?  Would this have been in line

20     with the directions or guidance given by the commander?  Thank you.

21        A.   The one who processed the document acted in accordance with the

22     guidance received by the commander.

23        Q.   Thank you.  While we are looking at this document, we see that in

24     item 4 there is a request for some pallets of Plexiglass.  Tell us, what

25     is Plexiglass used for and why was this quantity not approved?  Thank

Page 18338

 1     you.

 2        A.   Plexiglass is a kind of hard plastic used for covering structures

 3     if there is a need for visibility.  In other words, it's a substitute for

 4     glass or plastic covers used to protect from rain.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record, in the English translation it is

 7     item number 5, which is not really legible in the B/C/S version.

 8             Please continue.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Kralj, what military purpose could this Plexiglass be used

12     for in Srebrenica, which was not approved in the requested quantities?

13     And how much exactly is two pallets of Plexiglass?

14        A.   Two pallets of Plexiglass?  Well, the dimensions are not stated.

15     Plexiglass can be cut.  A pallet usually measures 1 by 1 metre or has a

16     volume of 1 cubic metre.  Two pallets then could be equal to 400 to 500

17     square metres, depending on the strength of the Plexiglass.  The usual

18     strength is 2 to 3 millimetres.  This was often used by the members of

19     the Muslim army for securing their trenches and to enable them to stay in

20     the trenches safely because this is more durable than mere nylon, and it

21     also enables them to observe and stay in fortified structures more

22     comfortably.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In the translation it was not clear whether

24     Plexiglass can be cut or not.  Please explain once more.  Thank you.

25        A.   Plexiglass can be cut with a saw, with a common hand-saw to

Page 18339

 1     adjust its size.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  We have seen in the document that the Dutch requested

 3     a certain quantity of skiing equipment and that General Mladic made a

 4     note to explain why they don't need it.  Can you say whether UNPROFOR

 5     members in the Srebrenica enclave ever used skiing equipment?  Has our

 6     army ever observed that?  Thank you.

 7        A.   UNPROFOR members did not use skiing equipment.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know if the Muslims used it and if so, what

 9     for?  Thank you.

10        A.   The terrain around Srebrenica is hilly or mountainous.  This kind

11     of equipment was required for Muslim special units to enable them to move

12     fast on snow, to reconnoitre, to move closer to our positions, and I

13     would also like to add that most of the people living there have the

14     necessary skills to use poor quality skiing equipment.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know if an anti-personnel mine is activated

16     when you ski over it?  Thank you.

17        A.   If the snow is deeper than 20 centimetres, you can ski over an

18     anti-personnel mine because the contact surface on snow is greater than

19     the contact surface of a person who walks.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender document 04899

22     into evidence.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First Judge Mindua has a question.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

25             Witness Kralj, vis-à-vis the document that we have here on the

Page 18340

 1     screen, I wanted to ask you the following:  Do you know whether the Dutch

 2     soldiers within UNPROFOR had explained their request relating to

 3     Plexiglass and to alpine skiing equipment?  They could, for instance,

 4     have said that they, too, needed to strengthen their positions with

 5     Plexiglass and that they needed skis to move about faster in the

 6     mountains.  So do you have any idea what explanation they might have

 7     given?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not familiar with their

 9     explanations.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document will be received as an exhibit.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 4899 shall be

13     assigned Exhibit D333.  Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

15             Could you please show 65 ter 04896 next.  Thank you.  We have it.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   It is a handwritten document.  It was sent by the Main Staff of

18     the VRS.  The number of the document is 06/17-5 of the

19     3rd of January, 1995, to the UNPROFOR command in Sarajevo, attention of

20     Colonel Coiffet.  He is addressed by the author of the document as

21     "respected colonel."  Is there anything in the document which could help

22     you in concluding where it was produced, who produced it, or whose

23     handwriting it might be?

24        A.   This document was drafted by Colonel Djurdjic in his office.

25     This is his handwriting.

Page 18341

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what kind of document this is and

 2     what it concerns, if you can tell us something based on what we can see

 3     on the screen?  If it is not enough, we can also show you the second

 4     page.

 5        A.   We can see that it was handwritten by Colonel Djurdjic and that

 6     he logged the document and sent it to UNPROFOR command to

 7     Colonel Coiffet, who, in terms of hierarchy, was his peer.  It is a

 8     handwritten document because of the situation in which it was drafted; in

 9     other words, certain clarifications were required.  Obviously, he was not

10     in a position to have the document typed, and at the time there were

11     still not many computers available for Mr. Djurdjic to write this

12     document.

13        Q.   Since we are on the second page, I'd like to ask you to look at

14     the third paragraph from the bottom which actually answers the question

15     put to you a moment ago.  I quote:

16             "In addition to everything specified, please forward information

17     about 1.000 batteries," and there is something else just above that that

18     we can't see.  And it goes on to say, "different types of torch lights."

19             Please scroll down even more.  Here it says:

20             "In one of the requests, ski equipment was requested for

21     Srebrenica totalling to 200 sets, as well as sleighs.  I truly see no

22     reason for such items to be present in Srebrenica.  We are also

23     interested in the use of Plexiglass in Srebrenica."

24             And then the paragraph I have read out.

25             Does it -- document point out what was referred to in the

Page 18342

 1     previous document and that Colonel Djurdjic provided certain answers and

 2     requested certain clarifications?  Also, do you know if we ever received

 3     those clarifications?

 4        A.   We can see from the document that there were things that we

 5     couldn't decipher or approve, and obviously Colonel Djurdjic was

 6     requested by the general to provide an answer and seek clarifications

 7     about the ski equipment and other equipment which was not cleared.  It is

 8     also clear that Colonel Djurdjic had regular meetings with

 9     Colonel Coiffet either in his office or in Sokolac to discuss similar

10     issues.  I have not seen an answer to this letter.  I no longer recall

11     whether they answered in writing or orally.  That is to say, whether

12     Colonel Coiffet answered it.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Since you worked alongside Colonel Djurdjic you know

14     what attention to detail he was accustomed to pay.  Do you know whether

15     he acquainted those responsible with his meetings with Colonel Coiffet

16     whom he met frequently, either in his office or in Sokolac, as you

17     mentioned?

18        A.   Colonel Djurdjic was supposed to write a report about each such

19     meeting and forward it to the commander.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether Colonel Djurdjic frequently

21     wrote similar documents to this one by which he asked for additional

22     information so as to be able to make the right decision?

23        A.   Colonel frequently produced such documents, although not

24     necessarily by hand.  Most of them were typed.  Some of them were signed

25     by Mladic if they were more serious in nature, if they involved more

Page 18343

 1     serious breaches.

 2        Q.   Since you refer to serious breaches, can you explain the Chamber

 3     what you mean by that and whether you speak from experience?

 4        A.   I speak from experience.  If there were quantities of supplies

 5     that were not approved, found, then they were not let through.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender 04896.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification, pending

 8     translation.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 4896 shall be

10     assigned Exhibit D334, marked for identification, pending translation.

11     Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Since the document has

13     not been translated, could we please look at its first page.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Kralj, if we look at this page, in the header we can see that

16     the document was drafted on the 3rd of January, 1995.  If we now look at

17     the last paragraph of page 1, in the first line we see the date of the

18     5th of January, 1995.  Can you see that?  Now, can you tell us whether

19     the document ought to be referring to the 5th of January in certain

20     notifications and yet that it was written on the 3rd, or is this a simple

21     mistake?

22        A.   It's a mistake.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Does it mean that something should have been

24     different in the header?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please go back to the top.

Page 18344

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I quote:

 3             "Dear Colonel, when we consider the notifications for UNPROFOR

 4     convoy movements on the 4th of January, 1995, we singled out several

 5     items and supplies and amounts and a number of requests with the

 6     reference to locations where you want it delivered.  In order to do that,

 7     we need the following information:"

 8             The first item is one diving suit for Gorazde.  Next,

 9     Colonel Djurdjic wanted to know who was to use it and when.  The next

10     item, 27 corpse bags, in brackets, (Gorazde).  Colonel Djurdjic wanted

11     more detail about the purpose of these items.  In item 3 we see 61

12     compressed air tanks.  Djurdjic wanted to know when they were going to be

13     used --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Where they were

15     going to be used.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   The next item refers to 24 gas tanks.  He wanted to know where

18     the gas was to be used specifically.  In the last bullet point we see

19     that he mentioned a convoy for Sarajevo asking that competent personnel

20     should make information available concerning 57 metal containers, in

21     brackets, (capacity, purpose, contents).  The second item, 25 plastic

22     containers, and we see that the same information is required:  Capacity,

23     purpose, contents.  The next item is 20 containers with insect repellent.

24     Djurdjic wanted to know the exact quantities and where they were going to

25     be used.  And then we have the paragraph referring to the notification of

Page 18345

 1     the 5th.

 2             Can you tell us why all this equipment was needed?  For example,

 3     the diving suit in Gorazde.  What use did UNPROFOR have of that?

 4        A.   UNPROFOR had no use of it.  They did not have frog men among

 5     their personnel, at least not registered.  It could only be used by

 6     expert divers who were already in Gorazde and who needed the equipment to

 7     perform some tasks.  One also needs to bear in mind that it was during

 8     the cold period of the year.  Without special diving equipment, it was

 9     impossible to execute certain reconnaissance tasks.  One needs to know

10     that the Drina River flows through Gorazde.

11        Q.   Thank you.  The third item refers to 61 compressed air tanks, and

12     Djurdjic wanted to know where these were going to be used.  Can you tell

13     us where and why they used compressed air tanks in Gorazde or anywhere in

14     the enclaves, if you know?  And I'd like to thank Aleksandar.

15        A.   Compressed air tanks are used by divers.  UNPROFOR had no use for

16     compressed air.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you learn after the war why they used this

18     equipment that at the time seemed illogical to us?  We didn't use such

19     equipment, and yet we were in the same area where the terrain was

20     similar?  Did you discuss this with any of your former colleagues from

21     the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22        A.   General, sir, during a trip I was together with General Talic and

23     General Delic, who was the BH Army commander.  The trip was to visit the

24     Ministry of Defence of Great Britain.  At an airport not far from London,

25     we had to wait for some time for our transfer to catch the catch the next

Page 18346

 1     flight.  We used a transport plane that the American armed forces have.

 2     In a conversation between those present with the BH Army general he told

 3     us this, It was lucky for you that the war concluded and that peace

 4     arrived because we had prepared a special diving team to follow

 5     Bosna River to get to the area of Doboj and Gorazde.  He did not explain

 6     any additional details.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kralj, tell us, are you familiar with the term "medical

 8     evacuation"?

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter isn't sure that that's what

10     Mr. Tolimir said.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And was this something that was used as a term in correspondence?

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you repeat.  Did you use the

14     term "medical evacuation"?  Was that correct?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I asked

16     the witness if he was aware of the term "medical evacuation" and if that

17     term was frequently used in communication.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am familiar with the term.

20     "Medical evacuation" is a term used by UNPROFOR whenever there was urgent

21     need to have sick or wounded members of UNPROFOR transported to their

22     base whenever they needed more sophisticated treatment than administering

23     first aid.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 18347

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Let me put a question to the witness:  You told

 2     us about a trip to Great Britain and a conversation there with Bosnian

 3     generals.  When did this trip take place?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The trip was organised by UNPROFOR

 5     in co-operation with OSCE.  It was intended for high officials, defence

 6     ministers, army commanders, their interpreters or aids, and it was a

 7     visit to the Defence Ministry in Great Britain.  The trip was organised

 8     from Sarajevo.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Kralj.  Mr. Kralj.  Mr. Kralj, I just wanted

10     to know when this trip took place.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately two months before the

12     arrest of General Tolimir in Vienna.  I don't recall the exact date.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In which year?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not focussed enough to be able

15     to tell you the year right now.  Roughly two months before the general

16     was arrested, and I mean General Tolimir -- or, General Talic, because I

17     know that the next trip was to take place via Vienna to Sweden, and I was

18     supposed to be in that delegation.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To your recollection, approximately at which

20     time-period did that take place, in the 1990s or after 2000 or give us a

21     date, please, roughly?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Close to 2000.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 18348

 1        Q.   You mentioned two last names in connection with the arrest, Talic

 2     and Tolimir.  Can you say now, for the record, did this arrest take place

 3     in Vienna and was it the arrest of General Talic only?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Yes, it was the arrest of General Talic only in Vienna.  I

 5     misspoke when I mentioned General Tolimir.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  Perhaps you need a break, as do all of us.

 7     It is quite a tiring exercise, and we will resume after the break, if

 8     Mr. President will allow us to.

 9        A.   A break would be good.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we take our

11     break now and then resume after the envisaged time for a break?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I am a little bit surprised.  It is

13     really very early for the second break.  Usually we have our second break

14     half past 12.00, not quarter before 12.00.  You gave us as a reason that

15     the witness might be tired, but after 50 minutes there should be not

16     reason for this.  You want to interrogate him for nine hours all together

17     and four hours by the Prosecution.  You should use our time properly.  It

18     was just a question about a year and the fact of an arrest.  I think you

19     should continue a bit further.  I don't see any sign of reason for an

20     early break now.  Please continue.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Let me go back to the question I put earlier on about medical

24     evacuations.

25             Mr. Kralj, do you know which were the months during which the

Page 18349

 1     medical evacuations you are aware of took place?  Thank you.

 2        A.   There were medical evacuations by land and in cases of urgency by

 3     helicopter.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us who organised these medical

 5     evacuations and who arranged for their transportation and who approved

 6     these medical evacuations, as needed?

 7        A.   UNPROFOR took care of the transportation upon an approval issued

 8     by the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have document 05061 called

11     up in e-court.  Can we have it on our screens.  We can see it now.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   It's a letter from the Main Staff of the VRS, dated the

14     14th of February, 1995, and sent to the UNPROFOR command in Sarajevo to

15     General Brinkman.  It concerns one of the inspections as a result of

16     which there was a medical evacuations.  I will read what it says:

17             "General, sir, today on the return of my team from Sokolac and

18     upon completing the inspection of a helicopter mission during which one

19     child was medically evacuated and accompanied by two members of the

20     child's family, the chief charged with the inspection reported on the

21     following:  The planned and approved helicopter mission comprising one

22     Arapaho helicopter took place without any problems or objections, just

23     the way it had been approved in terms of the route, the timing of the

24     flights, and the list of passengers.  At 1130 hours, as the helicopter

25     returned from Gorazde and landed on the field in Sokolac, the

Page 18350

 1     helicopter's motor was turned off in order for the inspection on the

 2     return to be effected.  At that point in time, one could clearly hear the

 3     sound of yet another helicopter motor which was flying from the direction

 4     of Han Stjenica, some 10 kilometres south-east of Sokolac.  This was

 5     something that the helicopter crew of UNPROFOR was also able to hear but

 6     failed to make any comments on.  Members of the crew visibly showed great

 7     surprise at hearing that which could be clearly seen through their

 8     gesticulations."

 9             Mr. Kralj, did you ever take part in inspections, such as this

10     one, of UNPROFOR helicopter missions just as the one that I've read

11     about?

12        A.   In my role as a translator, I was in a position to be a part of

13     the inspection team checking up on helicopters whose flights for

14     Srebrenica or Gorazde had been okayed.  On their arrival from Sarajevo,

15     they would land at the football pitch belonging to the local football

16     team in Sokolac.  There were clear landing markings made on the pitch to

17     facilitate the landing of helicopters.  The inspection team checked the

18     cargo carried by the helicopter, and my task was to check the passenger

19     list and the identification or cards carried by the UNPROFOR members.  In

20     other words, I was supposed to make sure and check the identity of the

21     persons involved.  I was to check that they were indeed the persons they

22     wish -- presented to be.  The same procedure was repeated whenever they

23     landed on -- on their arrival from Sarajevo and on their return from the

24     mission before they proceeded to Sarajevo.

25             I am familiar with this instant case because it was much talked

Page 18351

 1     of.  It was said that the Muslim side had used the approved flight route

 2     to accomplish certain tasks of theirs and to fly over our territory in

 3     conditions of poor visibility all the way through to the territory under

 4     the control of the Federation, of what is Federation today, and was then

 5     Muslim controlled territory.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  Since you were there, can you tell us if

 7     you, yourself, saw, or, rather, heard the sound of that other

 8     helicopter -- I'm sorry, it was your colleague who was there.  Did he

 9     tell you if he had heard the sound of that other helicopter and was the

10     conclusion -- was any sort of conclusion reached as to where this

11     helicopter was headed, since you, yourself, said that it was much talked

12     about, and whether this constituted a violation of the no-fly zone?

13        A.   There was a no-fly zone, and the helicopter came from the

14     protected zone and entered a Muslim territory in the direction of

15     Sarajevo, according to the statements of the team leader who conducted

16     the inspection and the report he submitted to the Main Staff.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The witness has

19     already answered the question.  I was on my feet because it is -- first,

20     it's a leading question.  If he wants to know what this witness's

21     colleague told him, he can simply ask him, What did the colleague tell

22     you, if anything.  The question was put in such a way that it suggested

23     to the witness the answer or the substance of the conversation in

24     question, so it's objectionable.

25             Second thing is that it was a three-part question.  There were

Page 18352

 1     three in one.  I see that the witness found his way through it, but I

 2     would just bring that to the Trial Chamber's attention so that we are

 3     able to maintain a clear record for the proceedings.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I apologise that I didn't see you earlier.  That

 5     was my concern, too, and therefore I would like to put a question to the

 6     witness.

 7             Sir, do you recall that you said:

 8             "I am familiar with this instant case because it was much talked

 9     of.  It was said that ...," and then you continue.

10             That was what you said first.  What was the source of your

11     knowledge?  Who did tell you this?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The inspection team leader told me,

13     Colonel Pandzic.  He said that such things were happening and that I

14     should also look out for sounds of other helicopters.  In this specific

15     case, when we conducted the inspection, I was able to identify

16     General de Lapresle.  I didn't know that he was a general, and I asked

17     him for his ID.  When I was suspicious, I also demanded that the person

18     in question take off his helmet.  Visibility was limited, and it was a

19     kind of awkward situation because there was a bit of dismay at the fact

20     that I did not know who General de Lapresle was.  Colonel Pandzic was an

21     expert for aviation and helicopters, and he identified the helicopter and

22     explained me what the Muslim forces were doing to make use of these

23     helicopter flights because they had helicopters available.  One of these

24     was to use the open corridor because we only had some make-shift

25     anti-aircraft weapons that could harm helicopters.  When the corridor was

Page 18353

 1     opened, that is the corridor through which the helicopter was allowed to

 2     fly, then nobody would use anti-aircraft weapons because the corridor had

 3     to be open, and they used that corridor while the inspection was being

 4     conducted on the ground to fly through.  The innocence typically took

 5     about 15 minutes.  I did not hear a helicopter fly over in this specific

 6     case, but it happened before.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, after this answer, you will realise

 8     that you put quite a lot of details in your last question which was the

 9     concern of Mr. Vanderpuye.  Try to avoid leading questions, please, and

10     put open questions to the witness.

11             Please continue.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

13     you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  I have no reason to ask leading questions.  It just

14     happened like -- inadvertently.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Since we are speaking about misuse of medical evacuation, can you

17     say what these consisted in?  Apart from this case you mentioned, do you

18     know of any other instances and what was carried then if they weren't

19     carrying wounded people?

20        A.   As the persons transported were not thoroughly inspected, there

21     was some information that they were transporting persons who are not

22     UNPROFOR members but were dressed up as if they were, and they also

23     carried UNPROFOR IDs.  That's why there was an order for a qualified

24     person who speaks languages to conduct an inspection and check all

25     persons supposed to travel.  Colonel Pandzic was in charge of helicopter

Page 18354

 1     flights and helicopter transportation to prevent anything from happening

 2     that was not announced or was not -- or could not be qualified as medical

 3     evacuation.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  You have just spoken about some measures

 5     that had to be taken to make the corridor for medical evacuation safe.

 6     What was the side carrying out the medical evacuation, in this case

 7     UNPROFOR, supposed to do, and what was the VRS supposed to do with regard

 8     to UNPROFOR which was carrying out the medical evacuation by helicopters?

 9     Thank you.

10        A.   UNPROFOR was duty-bound to announce the evacuation to the

11     Main Staff of the VRS in accordance with the -- with the genuine needs on

12     the ground, and they were not subject to the limitations that applied to

13     convoy movements and the movements of individuals.  The Main Staff

14     considered such instances of medical evacuation and they applied the

15     urgent procedure in such cases.  They would check what it was about and

16     order the units to make sure that the route is safe.  An inspection team

17     would be formed and they would inform UNPROFOR command as soon as

18     possible that the evacuation was approved.  In principle, approval was

19     given for all medical evacuations.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let us take a look at paragraph 2 of this document

21     drafted by Mr. Djurdjic.  It says, I quote:

22             "In this case, it is clear that the corridor approved was used by

23     the Muslims who were aware of the schedule of flights to conduct one more

24     flight of the many flights that they had made.  They abused the open

25     corridor which we have informed you about a number of times before.  We

Page 18355

 1     remind you once more that the Muslim forces are intensively using

 2     helicopters toward the enclaves and from the enclaves at night and in

 3     day-time when the corridors are open for UNPROFOR missions.  In order to

 4     conceal that, you know that they are painting their helicopters white and

 5     marking their flags with the letters 'UN.'  This conduct clearly shows

 6     inappropriate audacity on the part of the Muslims."

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot follow because the page

 8     has been turned too soon.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have to go back to the first page.

10             Mr. Tolimir, you stopped with the sentence:

11             "This conduct shows inappropriate audacity on the part of the

12     Muslims."

13             Could you please continue from there on.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I cannot read

15     because ...

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have the whole page back on the screen,

17     please.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And now we can go on.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Now this says, the last sentence reads:

21             "And the powerlessness of the UNPROFOR forces to ..."

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Please turn the page, interpreter's remark.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   "... to control the situation toward the enclaves and from the

25     enclaves involving the bodies of the other side, too."

Page 18356

 1             Now, my question to you is:  Do you know if the Muslims abused

 2     helicopter missions, medical missions, in previous or other instances as

 3     is stated here?  Thank you.

 4        A.   I am familiar with the document, and Djurdjic and Pandzic who

 5     dealt with these issues also informed me that the Muslims on several

 6     occasions used approved UN flights.  They need not have been about

 7     medical evacuation.  It was the same with the flights from Srebrenica to

 8     Tuzla.  The distance is very short and they used their own helicopters

 9     painted white with "UN" marked on their flags.  There was such reports

10     from the units.

11        Q.   You said that they used UNPROFOR helicopters.  Did they, in fact,

12     use UNPROFOR helicopters in these dealings, or did they only use the

13     corridors and the time slots given to UNPROFOR?

14        A.   UNPROFOR helicopters differ from the helicopters that the Muslims

15     had, but the Muslims' helicopters were painted white, and they used UN

16     symbols to trick the soldiers who had light anti-aircraft weapons capable

17     of shooting down a helicopter.  But, of course, there was a ban on

18     shooting at UNPROFOR helicopter because UNPROFOR helicopters flew

19     elsewhere towards the demarcation line between the Muslims and the

20     Serbian forces.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  In this last section, the last two

22     paragraphs, General Milovanovic speaks about possible disastrous

23     consequences.  Please explain to the Trial Chamber what is meant by that

24     and why the general reacted the way he did to prevent those disastrous

25     consequences from happening?

Page 18357

 1        A.   The worst case scenario was the accidental or deliberate shooting

 2     down of a helicopter marked "UN" and I'm -- and if this turns out to be a

 3     genuine UN helicopter because even if a UN helicopter was not announced

 4     or was flying anywhere near the demarcation line, the position was that

 5     such aircraft must not be shot at.  There were reports about instances

 6     that, during a period when our representatives were present, fire was

 7     opened at UN helicopters but, fortunately, they were not shot down.  They

 8     were hit but not shot down.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell the Trial Chamber what reasons the

10     Main Staff had for carrying out missions, such as medical evacuations, to

11     be conducted mostly on the ground if the state the person or persons to

12     be evacuated were in allowed that?

13        A.   The safety of UNPROFOR had to be guaranteed.  It is much easier

14     to secure a road than a flying helicopter.  There was always the risk

15     that someone might open fire, be it from the VRS side or by Muslim

16     forces, and they -- we also wanted to prevent the Muslims from abusing

17     the open corridor, especially in conditions of poor visibility and bad

18     weather, so they wouldn't be able to fly from the enclaves to Tuzla or

19     Sarajevo.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender document 05061.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This will be marked for identification, pending

23     translation.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 5061 shall be

25     assigned Exhibit D335, marked for identification pending translation.

Page 18358

 1     Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Kralj, I would like to get a clarification from you.  You

 4     said:

 5             "... during a period when our representatives were present, fire

 6     was opened at UN helicopters but, fortunately, they were not shot down."

 7             Who opened fire on UN helicopters?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was an incident in

 9     Gornji Vakuf which was controlled by the Muslim Croat forces.  Aboard a

10     helicopter was an interpreter, Rade Kosic.  Such incidents also took

11     place once liaison officers began operating as well as during missions in

12     the territories of some other units in the Federation.  These things

13     began happening when liaison officers were assigned to different staffs

14     or corps to liaise between the sides.

15             There was a mission in the territory of the 1st Krajina Corps,

16     and Rade Kosic, the interpreter, was present.  There I saw a Main Staff

17     document containing a report about that incident.  It was stated that

18     fire was opened by the Muslim Croat side.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             Could we next have 1D876.  Thank you.  Thank you.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   We see that this is a document of the Main Staff of the VRS.  It

25     was sent on the 28th of August, 1993, to the commands of units and corps

Page 18359

 1     of the VRS.  We see a handwritten note.  It reads:

 2             "Draft our specific order and sent to all units."

 3             We see some initials.  Could you tell us whose initials they are

 4     and whose note it is?

 5        A.   This was written by Zdravko Tolimir.

 6        Q.   Did General Milovanovic send this order to all corps commands, as

 7     far as you know, as you were familiar with the structure of the VRS and

 8     because you also sent documents to the corps commands?

 9        A.   We see that it was an urgent document which means it had priority

10     over other documents as to when it would be sent out.  It was addressed

11     to all corps commands.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at the introduction of this document just

13     following the list of addressees:

14             "Based on an appraisal of the situation at check-points and

15     security at bridges by the organs of the Main Staff of the

16     Army of Republika Srpska for the purpose of fully functional inspections

17     at check-points and security of bridges, I hereby order:

18             "1.  Check-points must function continuously, 24 hours a day.

19     Take urgent measures in this regard.

20             "2.  Check-points at which inspections of humanitarian aid

21     convoys and UNPROFOR are carried out shall be exemplary.  Select the men

22     for the job, equip and dress them in the M-89 uniform, and train them to

23     inspect convoys in a well-mannered and professional fashion.  Be very

24     correct and dignified when communicating with UNPROFOR and humanitarian

25     organisations.  Place check-points where there are facilities for

Page 18360

 1     freshening up, eating, and overnight stays when necessary; be hospitable

 2     towards UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisations.  Of course, they will

 3     pay for the satisfaction."

 4             My question is this:  What were the requests of the Main Staff

 5     concerning the personnel at check-points towards the units which were

 6     supposed to man those check-points through which convoys passed?

 7        A.   General, sir, the document was sent from the Main Staff.  At the

 8     time, I was in the 1st Krajina Corps.  I was their liaison officer.  The

 9     document was received by the operational department as an order.  The

10     corps commander, pursuant to item 2 of this document, issued his order in

11     turn to the Gradiska Brigade which set up a check-point ordering them to

12     abide by these instructions starting with the selection of personnel,

13     securing conditions for unhindered stops of the convoys so as not to

14     disrupt the rest of the traffic.  They also needed to find appropriate

15     facilities where members of the convoy or UNPROFOR could meet their basic

16     needs or even stay overnight, if necessary.

17             In the 1st Corps we did not have instances when they requested to

18     stay overnight, but they did have to make use of our toilets and other

19     facilities in case they had to stay there for some time.  It was also

20     required that the units provide adequate personnel.  Many people thought

21     that if a soldier was unfit to fight at the front lines he should be sent

22     to a check-point, but once this order came in people were adequately

23     trained, equipped, and prepared.  They were given the best equipment.

24     The best people were hand picked all in order to satisfy this order.

25             My role as liaison officer was to inspect the check-point and

Page 18361

 1     draw up a short report as to whether the instructions were abided by.  I

 2     was also authorised to instruct check-point personnel on how to address

 3     and communicate with the convoy members in an appropriate way.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think it's now the time for the

 5     second break.  We will resume at 1.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Carry on, please.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Kralj, since you mentioned a moment ago that you participated

14     in the training of those who manned the check-points, did you train them

15     in anything -- in anything in particular, or, in other words, can you

16     tell us what your role was?

17        A.   First of all, if possible, we wanted to have people who could

18     speak English.  Second of all, they were supposed to be experts trained

19     in working with metal detectors.  We also looked for people who were

20     familiar with the different types of goods or military equipment that

21     could be found in such convoys.  Basically, the team were mixed and

22     experts were attached to those teams, from time to time, depending on the

23     type of cargo.  In other words, the personnel were qualified enough to

24     perform an inspection in a quality, well-mannered way, be it an

25     inspection of a convoy or of an individual vehicle at their check-point.

Page 18362

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could 1D876 be admitted, please.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D876 shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit D336.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, it should remain on the screen for a

 6     moment because I would like to ask a question.  Can we see the top of the

 7     page, please, again, and especially the handwritten note.

 8             Mr. Kralj, can you tell me, to whom was this order of Mr. Tolimir

 9     addressed in the handwritten note?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The handwritten remark referred to

11     the person who was drafting the document to be submitted for signature.

12     In the header -- or, actually, at the bottom of the document on the

13     left-hand side we can see who the person was who did that.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm afraid I didn't understand what you said.  It

15     was type-signed by Mr. Milovanovic, if I am not mistaken.  Yes.

16     Manojlo Milovanovic.  Is the document from the Main Staff of the

17     Army of Republika Srpska?  And perhaps you can provide me with some

18     information about the way this was done that was already in a written

19     form and then with the handwritten note of Mr. Tolimir.  What did he mean

20     by "draft our specific order to all units"?  To which unit?  And what

21     should be drafted that was already drafted, this document?  I really

22     don't understand that.  Please help me.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we please see the very top of

24     the document on the left-hand side, the header itself.  This document was

25     not registered or logged in the office of Colonel Djurdjic; in other

Page 18363

 1     words, it was done in -- in operational way which doesn't necessarily

 2     mean that Djurdjic could not provide certain input.  It was obviously an

 3     operations order bearing the number of the operative worker and it is in

 4     the form of an order.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who drafted this order?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can't see that.  It was

 7     customary that the operations organ drafted orders such as this one based

 8     on its number which is 02.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we scroll down a bit, please, to the bottom.

10     Do you see any note who drafted that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't say who wrote the

12     document.  It is possible that General Milovanovic himself wrote it.

13     What we see on the right-hand side is the code of the location whence it

14     was sent, so it was an encrypted military line along which it was

15     transmitted.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this stamp bears the date

17     31st of August, 1995, at 1150; is that correct?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  It was sent out as a

19     telegram.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  At which point in time, if you know,

21     did Mr. Tolimir receive this piece of paper where he put his handwriting

22     on?  Before that was sent out to the units or after?

23             Can we see the top of the page again.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tolimir could have added this note

25     only to a document that was already finished.

Page 18364

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is the reason why I ask.  If that was

 2     already finished, it was drafted and perhaps already sent out to the

 3     subordinated units, what does it mean "draft our specific order to all

 4     units"?  What did he mean by that?  Which specific order should be

 5     drafted, by whom, and sent to which units?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One can tell from the heading that

 7     certain units have been left out; namely, the airforce.  Most probably

 8     Tolimir meant that an order should be drafted and sent to all units since

 9     the only ones included in this letter are the various corps.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is possible, but why did he say "draft our

11     specific order ..." if that refers to this document, because that was

12     already drafted and finalised according to what you just said?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document is not

14     self-explanatory in those terms.  It doesn't really say why an additional

15     document should be drafted, but it is possible that the purpose was to

16     send it to others simply for their information.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

18             Judge Mindua has a question.

19             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, to supplement the

20     Presiding Judge's question, I'd like to ask you whether you remember a

21     specific order that would have been sent by General Tolimir pursuant to

22     this order and sent out, therefore, to all other units?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this point in time, I was in the

24     1st Corps.  I am only familiar with the part of this document which

25     concerns the convoy, so I can't give you an answer that will be more

Page 18365

 1     precise than this.

 2             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             Can we show the document so that we can see both the top and the

 6     bottom stamps.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We just had it on the screen.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Kralj, can you tell when this document was written in the

11     Main Staff?  It states so in the top left-hand corner.  The VRS

12     Main Staff, strictly confidential, et cetera.

13        A.   It reads 30 August 1993.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now look at the stamp that we have in the bottom

15     right-hand corner.  What date does it bear?

16        A.   The document was transmitted a day later, the

17     31st of August, 1993.

18        Q.   And you see three abbreviations, TLR, TGR, TLF.  Do you know what

19     they stand for?  TLR?

20        A.   Teleprinter.

21        Q.   Since this was transmitted by teleprinter a day after it was

22     written, is it possible that this was a document originating from a lower

23     level unit subordinated to the Main Staff?  Thank you.

24        A.   It is possible.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at the handwritten note at the top of

Page 18366

 1     the page.  Thank you.  I am reading out what it says here in the

 2     handwriting:

 3             "Write or draft our specific order to all units."

 4             And a signature.  This is my question:  Do you know whose

 5     signature this is and does this come from the Main Staff or from some

 6     other quarters?  Thank you.

 7        A.   It is possible that it had come from a place other than the

 8     Main Staff because it's not really clear where the document was

 9     circulated.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In the upper left-hand corner of the document, it

11     says the VRS Main Staff.  Does this denote who the order belongs to or

12     who it was issued by?

13        A.   It is an order of the Main Staff.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In the upper part of the document, above the

15     initials, it says "write our order" or "draw up our order."

16             This is my question:  Could someone who had this Main Staff order

17     have wanted to produce, based on this, an order of his own?

18        A.   It is possible.

19        Q.   Can you give us your opinion as to whose -- who this signature

20     might belong to?  Have you ever seen it before?

21        A.   I am not certain.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Kralj, some minutes ago you said it is the

23     handwriting of Mr. Tolimir and his signature, without any reservation.

24     Then I asked you about this handwriting of Mr. Tolimir.  There was no

25     doubt that this is from Mr. Tolimir.  Why does it now so doubtful for?

Page 18367

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because there's mixed

 2     Cyrillic and Latin script here.  The note was written in the Cyrillic

 3     script and the signature, if it is in the Latin script, then it seems to

 4     be that "ZT," the first letter might be Z, but I am not clear on the

 5     signature at all.  I will stand by my previous answer that I am not

 6     certain.  I do believe it to be Tolimir's, but I am not one hundred per

 7     cent sure.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the beginning of your testimony about this

 9     document, you, without any reservation, said it is Mr. Tolimir's

10     handwriting.  The handwriting and the signature haven't changed since

11     then.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in a bit more.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Here you go.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On close examination, I am not sure

15     this is Tolimir's signature.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I can't exclude that there is a translation

17     issue.  Could you please read the full text of the handwriting into the

18     record.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Write our specific order to all

20     units."

21             In other words, somebody is ordering that the order be written

22     for all the various units; whereas it was usually the role of Tolimir to

23     propose something of the sort.  That's why I was a bit puzzled by what I

24     read.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 18368

 1             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   For the sake of the transcript, we see the whole telegram now.

 5     This is my question:  Had this been a telegram from the Main Staff, would

 6     it have born General Milovanovic's signature?

 7             I'm sorry.  I formulated the question wrongly.  Had this been a

 8     telegram written in the Main Staff, would it have been the obligation to

 9     type-sign General Milovanovic in order to indicate for the staff that

10     this was, indeed, from the Main Staff?

11        A.   Yes.  It had to have the stamp and the signature.

12        Q.   Had this by chance been sent by teleprinter to one of the

13     subordinated units, would it have born the signature of

14     General Milovanovic at the teleprinting machine?

15        A.   Yes, it would have had to have the signature and the stamp of the

16     teleprinter bearing the time when it was sent.

17        Q.   Had it been received by a unit outside of the Main Staff, and as

18     it says here the date was the 31st of August, could the document have had

19     the original signature affixed by General Milovanovic or would there only

20     have been a type-signed name of General Milovanovic?

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please bear with me for a moment.  You

22     are now overlapping while speaking.  Please avoid that so we have a clear

23     record.

24             Now it's your turn, sir.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When a unit receives an order, the

Page 18369

 1     only thing the document indicates is what was typewritten; in other

 2     words, one cannot see either the signature or the stamp.  And the

 3     teleprinter operator is duty-bound to place the date and time of its

 4     receipt and to forward it to the command.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  Please do not be upset by the fact that

 7     both the Judge and I are putting many questions to you on this document,

 8     but I know that this is a document that was written by the Main Staff,

 9     and I wouldn't object to placing my signature at the bottom of it when it

10     comes to its content.  The Judge's intention was to establish the truth.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We both agree we try to find out the truth, but

12     you should avoid to testify and to give facts, what you would have done.

13             Indeed, we just want to understand the procedure what was in

14     place at the relevant time in the Main Staff.  Thank you very much.

15             Please continue.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Can the

17     document please be admitted -- oh, it's already been admitted.  Yes, I

18     have just seen my note to that effect.

19             Can we now call up 1D876.  Thank you.  I'm sorry, my mistake.

20     1D1052.  That's what I am seeking.  Thank you.  Thank you.

21             I made a mistake because this document preceded the one we have

22     just seen.  We can see that this was a document of the Main Staff of the

23     VRS, number -- I think the first digit is 0.  07/something dated

24     9 April 1993.  The subject line reads:  "Order to Control Humanitarian

25     UNPROFOR Convoys."  It was sent to the commands of the 1st Krajina Corps,

Page 18370

 1     the 2nd Krajina Corps, and so on, including the airforce and

 2     anti-aircraft defence of the Drina Corps.  Could we please scroll down to

 3     see the signature block.  It was signed by deputy

 4     commander Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic.  And this document was sent

 5     to the units coded.

 6             Let us scroll back to the top, please.  Thank you.

 7             It says order number so-and-so, dated 2 April 1993, issued by GS

 8     VRS:

 9             "Regulates the movement of humanitarian aid and UNPROFOR convoys

10     across RS territory.  Taking into consideration the behaviour and

11     attitude of UNPROFOR and the humanitarian organisations, and with a view

12     to taking efficient measures, I hereby issue the following order:"

13             And item 1 reads:

14             "Check-points must be in function 24 hours a day" --

15             I apologise, I read from the other order by mistake.  This order,

16     in fact, reads:

17             "Examine separately every member of the group controlling

18     humanitarian aid convoys and remove from the group all those who have

19     compromised themselves by acquiring personal gain or in any other

20     manner."

21             And I'll now read out item 3.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Kralj, while you were a liaison officer of the 1st Corps, did

24     you receive such orders and do you remember the first orders about the

25     setting up of check-points in the zone of responsibility of your corps?

Page 18371

 1     Thank you.

 2        A.   We did receive such orders and we acted upon them.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  It says in the following item, which is also numbered

 4     as item, it should be item 2, actually:

 5             "Select a person known for his honesty, morale, and expertise and

 6     appoint him or her group leader."

 7             Thank you.  Here is my question:  Was an officer appointed to

 8     such duties at the time?  Because you said that you were in charge of

 9     these check-points.

10        A.   A lower-ranking officer was appointed as a check-point commander.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, these two orders that we have seen, do they show

12     that the Main Staff devoted some attention to check-points, and did the

13     Main Staff do all that was necessary for them to function in accordance

14     with the agreements reached in the central joint commission?  Thank you.

15        A.   The Main Staff took all measures necessary to have the

16     check-points function in the best possible way.  Firstly, by selecting

17     personnel, their aspect and conduct with regard to UNPROFOR personnel or

18     anybody else passing by these check-points.  There were also analyses

19     made and shortcomings were rectified.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at item 4.  It says:

21             "In daily reports, provide data on humanitarian and UNPROFOR

22     convoys which were checked or passed through your zone of

23     responsibility."

24             Here is my question.  Was that dealt with in the daily combat

25     reports the same way as any combat activity about which there was

Page 18372

 1     reporting daily?  Thank you.

 2        A.   This was a mandatory component of the combat reports, namely, the

 3     activities of UNPROFOR, no matter whether they passed or not.  If they

 4     did, then the relevant information would have been included.  If they

 5     didn't, then there was a remark saying that no UNPROFOR or humanitarian

 6     aid convoys passed today.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Since you worked in the 1st Corps and in the

 8     Main Staff, tell us whether there were any incidents where people came to

 9     harm at these check-points?

10        A.   As far as I know, there were no incidents in the territory of the

11     1st Krajina Corps, and later during my stay there were no major incidents

12     at check-points either.  There were some talks and verbal arguments, but

13     no incidents.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document into

16     evidence.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D1052 shall be

19     assigned Exhibit D337.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Kralj, can you explain, since you were a participant in the

24     events, what the difference was between UNPROFOR convoys and humanitarian

25     aid convoys?  Thank you.

Page 18373

 1        A.   UNPROFOR convoys were armed.  They had combat assets, personnel,

 2     or they supplied their units in the protected zones with the material;

 3     whereas humanitarian convoys were UNHCR convoys or

 4     International Committee of the Red Cross or Doctors Without Frontiers or

 5     other organisations that carried supplies for the civilian population.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit D303.

 8     Thank you.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Here is a document, Mr. Kralj, a document of the Main Staff as we

11     see in the letterhead, Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  The

12     first two digits of the number are 09, and it's dated 31 August 1994.  It

13     was to be dispatched to all commands of the corps mentioned there, and

14     the subject line is:  "Order Regarding Movement of Humanitarian Aid

15     Across Lines of Separation."  Thank you.

16             Take a look at the end of the document and you will see the

17     signature of deputy commander General Manojlo Milovanovic.  It seems we

18     will have to turn the page to see the signature.  You can see it now.

19     Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we go back to page 1 now.

21     Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I will now read the first paragraph.  I quote:

24             "You know that the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska no

25     longer has any jurisdiction or responsibility concerning the approval of

Page 18374

 1     entry and movement of teams and convoys of organisations through the

 2     territory of Republika Srpska."

 3             Second paragraph:

 4             "This approval is now issued by the co-ordinating body for

 5     humanitarian aid and the Ministry of Health, Labour, and Social Welfare."

 6             Third paragraph:

 7             "The Army of the Republika Srpska has the obligation to check

 8     teams and convoys of humanitarian organisations passing through the

 9     territory of Republika Srpska and crossing lines of separation into

10     territory controlled by Muslim and Croatian forces."

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you shouldn't continue reading

12     because the time for our today's hearing is over.  If you have one

13     question according to what you have just read, you may put this final

14     question to the witness or you may want to continue tomorrow.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Here is my question to Mr. Kralj:  To who did the

18     Ministry of Health give approval?  Do you know?  Thank you.

19        A.   The Ministry of Health gave approval to those who transported

20     medical material.  In a word, Doctors Without Frontiers.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.  We will continue tomorrow with our questions.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

23             Mr. Vanderpuye, do you want to raise something?

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, only briefly, Mr. President.  I just wanted

25     to have an idea from General Tolimir approximately how much time he

Page 18375

 1     expects to use tomorrow, just so that I can prepare to start, if

 2     necessary, or not.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what is your estimation?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My estimate is that we will use as

 5     much time as planned, possibly a bit less, so that tomorrow after the

 6     first break we will be able to communicate to Mr. Vanderpuye if we are

 7     likely to finish before the time estimated.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Just for the record, you have used in

 9     examination-in-chief, up to now, 5 hours and 38 minutes.  You have an

10     indication, Mr. Vanderpuye.  There is a possibility that you may commence

11     your cross-examination tomorrow.

12             Sir, we conclude now our today's hearing.  We will continue

13     tomorrow morning at 9.00.  Please be reminded that it is not permitted to

14     have contact to either party during the break.  We adjourn.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day

18                           of January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.