Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18443

 1                           Thursday, 26 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom and to

 6     those listening to these procedures.  The witness should be brought in,

 7     please.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, Mr. Kralj.  Welcome back.  I have

10     to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth still applies today.

11                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO KRALJ [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye is carrying on his

14     cross-examination.

15             You have the floor.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, and good morning Mr. President,

17     Your Honours.  Good morning everyone.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]

19        Q.   Good morning to you, Mr. Kralj.  When we left off yesterday --

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   I'm sorry.  I didn't wait for the translation.  When we left off

22     yesterday I had shown you a document, 65 ter 5106, which I will leave at

23     this time.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Your Honours, I would like to tender that

25     document, and I would also like to let the Trial Chamber know --

Page 18444

 1        Q.   And also you, Mr. Kralj --

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  -- that we have an original of the document, if

 3     either the Chamber would like to see it or review it, the Defence, or

 4     Mr. Kralj.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would ask you if you are going to show it to

 6     the witness so that he has a better look at it and to identify the

 7     handwriting on it.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think that's a good idea, Mr. President.  I

 9     will do that.  And with the assistance of the usher, I will ask to have

10     that placed on the ELMO.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I should also tell you that the ERN number that

13     corresponds to the original is different than the one in e-court, and the

14     reason is because the original document -- rather, the document in

15     e-court was received as a photocopy prior to the original being received

16     and so they were stamped separately but they are identical documents.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I am not mistaken, you are referring to

18     page 12 in B/C/S and page 17 in English.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, that should be brought up in e-court.  And

21     page 12 in B/C/S should be put on the ELMO.  Now we have it on the ELMO

22     and you, Mr. Vanderpuye, should continue.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Mr. Kralj, are you able to see the page that I referred you to

25     yesterday in that original document?  If it would be helpful for you to

Page 18445

 1     take it off the ELMO for a moment, have a good look at it, and then

 2     replace it, you can do that.

 3        A.   Your Honours, there is no need.  Having viewed these original

 4     documents, I can see that it is my handwriting, the word "no" in the

 5     Latin script.  I was confused by the words in the Cyrillic script.  Since

 6     we can see that the note says, "Kralj, why not?" that could have been

 7     General Tolimir's question.  When I looked at the first page with

 8     approved convoys, I could see that even if Milovanovic had something to

 9     ask, he would have done it differently; in other words, I retract my

10     previous statement now having viewed the originals.  "Ne," or "no" is in

11     the Latin script and this is what I usually use.  It was my comment

12     regarding this request.

13        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that clarification.  I can't --

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could move the document so we can see the

15     ERN number that would be helpful.  Just on the record, the page that

16     Mr. Kralj has been looking at is ERN 06793462, and once I get the

17     document back I will provide the Trial Chamber with the range for that

18     particular document so it's clear on the record.  Thank you very much.

19             I don't have any further use for that document, and I would

20     tender the 65 ter 5106, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received, and the original documents

22     should be given back to the Prosecution.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 5106 shall be

24     assigned Exhibit P2858.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 18446

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  For the record, Mr. President, the ERN range of

 2     the document I've just shown Mr. Kralj is 06793451 through 06793463.  I

 3     am not sure if the record reflects this, but I think it ought to, if not

 4     that Mr. Gajic I think had an opportunity to look at this document.  I am

 5     not sure if Mr. Tolimir did as well, but at least the record should

 6     reflect that.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kralj, when we left off yesterday aside from this document we

 8     were talking about 1995 and what was going on at that time in your sector

 9     with respect to the processing of convoy requests and related matters.

10     Now, it was the case in 1995 that when General Milovanovic was present

11     that General -- rather, Colonel Djurdjic could and would, on occasion,

12     consult with General Tolimir; is that right?

13        A.   They could engage in consultation.

14        Q.   And that would be in relation to UNPROFOR convoys and

15     humanitarian convoys; correct?

16        A.   It would be more in relation to UNPROFOR convoys, because the

17     general was a member of the joint military commission.

18        Q.   Prior to 1995, was it the case that Colonel Djurdjic would

19     consult on the issues of convoys with General Tolimir?  And I am talking

20     about humanitarian convoys, anyway.

21        A.   Clarify, please.  When prior to 1995?  I only arrived there in

22     late 1994, so I am not quite familiar with that topic, although there

23     were humanitarian convoys.  In the period before my arrival in the

24     Main Staff, I don't know whether there were consultations with

25     General Tolimir on the issue of humanitarian convoys.  All documents

Page 18447

 1     which came to the 1st Corps were signed by General Milovanovic.

 2        Q.   So when General Milovanovic wasn't around, was indeed in

 3     Crna Rijeka, Han Pijesak, wherever he might be to deal with these

 4     matters, did Colonel Djurdjic deal with humanitarian convoys or consult

 5     General Tolimir about the disposition of humanitarian convoys while you

 6     were there; that is, during the period of time that you were in that

 7     unit?

 8        A.   Colonel Djurdjic, usually and for the most part, consulted with

 9     General Milovanovic.  If either General Tolimir or someone else could be

10     of assistance, he could turn to him to clarify certain things but not

11     with respect to the quantities, size, and approval to pass.

12        Q.   What I would like to do is to -- I think I will show you this

13     time 65 ter 7583.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And I am going to ask if we could show, please,

15     page 2956.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I take it that you requested

17     leave to add it to the 65 ter exhibit list yesterday, and I would like to

18     ask Mr. Tolimir if there is any objection to add this document to this

19     list?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  We can't hear the accused.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, there is again a problem with this

23     microphone.  Please stop.  The interpreters can't hear you speaking.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  May

25     peace reign in this house for all those present, and may God's will be

Page 18448

 1     done in these proceedings.  I do not object to presenting anything that

 2     is necessary to Mr. Kralj.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Leave is granted to add it

 4     to the exhibit list.  Please continue.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 6             I understand that we should be looking at page 30 in e-court.

 7        Q.   And starting at line 13, you can see the question here:

 8             "Who was the immediate superior of Colonel Djurdjic?"

 9             Your answer was:

10             "His immediate superior was General Mladic, who later transferred

11     part of the authorities from the sphere of humanitarian activities to the

12     Chief of Staff, General Milovanovic."

13             And then you were asked this question:

14             "What happened when the Chief of Staff, General Milovanovic, was

15     not present at Crna Rijeka?  In such cases, who would deal with

16     humanitarian aid convoys and their movement?"

17             And your answer was that:

18             "In that situation, Colonel Djurdjic would consult on the issue

19     of the convoys with General Tolimir."

20             That's right, isn't it?

21        A.   Yes, it is.  But I do want to add that I had UNPROFOR convoys in

22     mind.

23        Q.   You can see the question refers to humanitarian aid convoys and

24     their movement.  Are you saying that you may have misunderstood the

25     question, Mr. Kralj?  Let me just add this was put to you by

Page 18449

 1     Madam Natacha Fauveau who was the defence attorney for General Miletic.

 2     We can go to the previous page if you would like to see that.

 3        A.   No need.  Colonel Djurdjic, if he was unable to receive comments

 4     from General Milovanovic if there was no one there, the next person he

 5     could turn to in order to clarify things was General Tolimir irrespective

 6     of whether he was authorised to do that or not.  By virtue of

 7     General Tolimir's position and his position in the various commissions,

 8     could consult with Colonel Djurdjic or, in turn, tell him to wait until

 9     General Milovanovic's return.  He could share with him pieces of

10     information that Colonel Djurdjic could use in his work.  If authorised,

11     he could also tell him, This is okay.  Keep going, so as not to halt the

12     entire convoy movement.  It all depended on what authority he received

13     from the commander and if he did receive it.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I am not sure exactly how to go

16     about this.  I don't intend to tender the entire transcript at this

17     point, but I certainly would like to tender at least this page of it

18     because it's germane to the issues in his -- in his cross-examination so

19     far.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please put on the record the page

21     number so that we have it here.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  The page number is

23     transcript page 29256.  The specific -- the specific issue that arises

24     from it is the question and answer found at lines 17 through 21.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This page will be received as an exhibit.

Page 18450

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, page 30 of the 65 ter document 7583

 2     shall be assigned Exhibit P2859.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   The humanitarian aid convoys at some point in 1995, I think it

 6     was March 1995, you testified on direct -- rather, the humanitarian

 7     aid -- co-ordinating body for humanitarian aid, rather, took over

 8     handling UNPROFOR convoys and movements at some point in 1995 in March;

 9     is that right?

10        A.   It cannot be right.  The co-ordinating body did not deal with

11     UNPROFOR convoy movements.  Perhaps this is a mistake.

12        Q.   Okay.  I just want to have it clear for the record.  So UNPROFOR

13     convoy movements were dealt with by the Main Staff throughout 1995; is

14     that correct?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   And that would entail the approvals and decision-making that

17     we -- that you talked about earlier both on your direct and

18     cross-examination; right?

19        A.   I would like to add something, though.  Colonel Djurdjic with an

20     UNPROFOR representative, Colonel Coiffet, who was his peer, occasionally

21     conducted analyses in order to address the problems relating to UNPROFOR

22     convoy movements.  They met at either Sokolac or in the UNPROFOR office

23     at Pale.  It was done in order to improve the co-operation.

24        Q.   All right.  Thank you for your answer.  I -- I am not sure if you

25     answered my question, though.  My question was that the handling of

Page 18451

 1     UNPROFOR convoys and movements dealt with by the Main Staff throughout

 2     1995, did that entail what you talked about before which was the process

 3     of approving it, regulating it, as it were, evaluating it?  That's what I

 4     would like to know.

 5        A.   That's right.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I would kindly ask the

 7     Prosecution to upload page 29256 as a separate document because that was

 8     not in private session.  This is not confidential.  The whole transcript

 9     is under seal and this is the best way to avoid any conflict, and I was

10     told that this relevant part of the testimony of Mr. Kralj in Popovic was

11     not -- was in open session.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We will do that.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:

15        Q.   The state co-ordinating body for humanitarian aid in 1995 dealt

16     with the movement of humanitarian aid personnel, so to speak, yes?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   And I think you testified that Colonel Milos Djurdjic was the

19     co-ordinator for the committee's relation with the Ministry of Defence

20     and the Main Staff of the VRS; is that right?

21        A.   I know that he acted on behalf of the Main Staff as the

22     co-ordinating personal in charge of liaising with the co-ordinating body,

23     but I don't think he was in charge of relations with the ministry.

24        Q.   Okay.  He was a member of that co-ordinating body; is that fair

25     to say?

Page 18452

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And a member of the Main Staff subordinated to General Mladic;

 3     right?

 4        A.   That is correct.

 5        Q.   And part of his function on that co-ordinating body was to

 6     represent the interests of the VRS; right?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   So he expressed concerns that the VRS had with respect to the

 9     movement of humanitarian aid convoys as well as with respect to the

10     quality and quantity of the goods or items they requested to move?

11        A.   His role was more in terms of control and convoy movements.

12        Q.   Okay.  Are you saying that he did not express concerns that the

13     VRS had with respect to the movement of humanitarian aid, or are you

14     saying that he did that in addition to dealing with matters of control

15     and convoy movements?

16        A.   He could acquaint the co-ordination body with some kinds of goods

17     that can be used for military purposes but are carried by humanitarian

18     convoys, by Muslim soldiers, or he could give information that he was --

19     that was at his disposal to the effect that these goods were not to be

20     used for the civilian population but rather for supplying the Muslim

21     army.

22        Q.   One of his functions was to transmit --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please speak into the

24     microphone, thank you.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:

Page 18453

 1        Q.   One of his functions was to transmit the decision of the

 2     co-ordinating body to the Main Staff - isn't that right? - or

 3     communicating?

 4        A.   That is not correct.  The co-ordinating body reported to the

 5     Main Staff in writing.  He could only submit his own written report about

 6     where he was and what he did.

 7        Q.   Thank you for that.  And after the co-ordinating body, you said

 8     that they reported to the Main Staff, what do you mean by that?  You mean

 9     that they reported their decisions or determinations to the Main Staff?

10        A.   The co-ordinating body did not file reports with the Main Staff.

11     The colonel submitted reports about his work to the Main Staff; whereas,

12     the co-ordinating body, if it took any decisions, informed the Main Staff

13     of the procedures the Main Staff is to abide by in the future.

14        Q.   Perhaps it's a translation issue, but at page 11, line 1 - and I

15     know that you can read English - you are recorded in the transcript as

16     saying that "the co-ordinating body reported to the Main Staff in

17     writing."  That's the reason why I asked the question.  But let me ask

18     this question:  The decisions that were made by the co-ordinating body,

19     those -- the Main Staff was informed of these - is that right? - in

20     writing?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And once that decision was issued, it was up to the Main Staff to

23     make sure that the subject of the humanitarian aid convoy decision was

24     abided by?

25        A.   Yes, in principle.

Page 18454

 1        Q.   And so the Main Staff communicated the decision of the

 2     co-ordinating body to subordinate units and organs; correct?

 3        A.   To the extent necessary.

 4        Q.   And that was so that the passage of these convoys, their

 5     movement, the movement of personnel, and the cargo could be properly

 6     regulated, inspected, and controlled; right?

 7        A.   Right.

 8        Q.   There would have been no further need to communicate the

 9     Main Staff's particular take on a decision by the co-ordinating body once

10     it had issued a decision?

11        A.   The co-ordinating body dealt with all its activities through the

12     Main Staff, activities that had to do with the movement of humanitarian

13     convoys.

14        Q.   If I can show you 65 ter 3282 --

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I can have that on the --

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for the record, this document is already

17     Exhibit P1692.  Thank you.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I am reminded by Ms. Stewart that I -- I think I

19     have read the number incorrectly.  It should be 3238.  Yes, that's

20     correct.

21        Q.   This document is a little dark and it may be difficult for you to

22     read, and perhaps if you can't read it you can read the English version,

23     but if we could just focus in first on the top, we can see that this is

24     from the Main Staff.  The report number is 06/20-104, and it's dated

25     10 March 1995.  And it's directed to the command of the Drina Corps, the

Page 18455

 1     Herzegovina Corps, the East Bosnia Corps.  And it says:

 2             "Please be advised that we approved the weekly plan of

 3     distribution of humanitarian assistance from Belgrade for eastern Bosnia

 4     and Herzegovina during the period from 11 March until 17 March 1995."

 5             Before I move on, let me just ask this question:  This is

 6     notified to the respective corps because that is the route that the

 7     convoy would be expected to take; is that right?

 8        A.   That is right.

 9        Q.   And in order for a convoy to pass through these various corps,

10     that needs to be co-ordinated or authorised by the Main Staff; is that

11     right?

12        A.   Right.

13        Q.   And then the second part -- rather, the very beginning of the

14     first paragraph.  It says:

15             "Please be advised that we approved the weekly plan of the

16     distribution of humanitarian assistance ..."

17             Now, the weekly plan for the distribution of humanitarian

18     assistance is something that's decided by the co-ordinating body for

19     humanitarian aid; isn't it?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.  This is a mistake, an administrative error.

21     Before the setting up of the co-ordination body, the term used was "we

22     approve" so that it probably still lingered even after this co-ordination

23     body had been set up.  Old habits die hard.  If something is approved,

24     although not approved by the Main Staff, it has a certain weight for

25     those manning the check-points.

Page 18456

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please rephrase his answer.

 2     The interpreter cannot follow.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The co-ordination body's duty is to

 4     approve this part referring to the cargo carried.  And the Main Staff,

 5     before this term "approval" began to be used, the Main Staff would give

 6     its consent to the co-ordination body with regard to the route.  So the

 7     way it's phrased here is wrong.  This is actually approved by the

 8     co-ordination body.

 9             In some other reports we saw that the co-ordination body did

10     issue approvals.  Those who were more careful drafting these documents

11     put it right; whereas here by inertia the former -- the formerly used

12     expressions are used.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:

14        Q.   There was some part of your answer that I understand there was

15     some difficulty interpreting.  It was a rather lengthy answer, and I am

16     not sure exactly where it arises.  Perhaps we can find that.  Let's see

17     if we can clarify this for you.  Where you said:

18             "If something is approved, although not approved by the Main

19     Staff, it has a certain weight for those manning the check-points."

20             From that point, until the point where you said:

21             "The co-ordination body's duty is to approve this part referring

22     to the cargo carried."

23             In between those two phrases, the interpreter was not able to

24     follow what you were saying.  Can you recall what you were saying after

25     you said that:

Page 18457

 1             "If something is approved, although not approved by the

 2     Main Staff, it has a certain weight for those manning the check-points."

 3             Do you remember what you said after that?

 4        A.   I remember, but let me simplify this.  For a while the Main Staff

 5     approved humanitarian convoys.  After the setting up of the co-ordinating

 6     body, the Main Staff no longer had this duty.  It was -- that was no

 7     longer part of its remit.  Everybody was advised to submit their requests

 8     through the co-ordinating body.  And during a transitional period,

 9     because it took some time for everybody to understand that it was the

10     co-ordinating body that was in charge of convoys, there could be such

11     mistakes as here where it says "we approved."  It was up to the

12     co-ordinating body to approve these things.  This is merely wrongly

13     phrased.  I hope this was clearer.

14        Q.   Yes, it was.  Thank you very much.  Following the -- well,

15     rather, the second sentence of this paragraph says:

16             "We reduced the plan for enclaves in number of vehicles and the

17     transport of fuel is not permitted."

18             My question is:  If the co-ordinating body had approved the plan,

19     what does this reduction refer to -- or, rather, why is the plan being

20     reduced?

21        A.   Talking about goods such as fuel or something else from which

22     there was intelligence that reserves are being formed or that they were

23     being used by the army in the enclaves.  There could be restrictions with

24     regard to them imposed by the Main Staff because there was a state of

25     war, after all, and things like this did happen.

Page 18458

 1        Q.   All right.  Let me take you down to the remark.  It's at the --

 2     near the bottom of the page.  And it says:

 3             "Regarding medicine for Srebrenica, approved for 14 March 1995,

 4     we shall send to the command of the Drina Corps a separate list of

 5     medicine once we co-ordinate it."

 6        A.   This remark may have meant the list of medication has not been

 7     checked by our medical service to establish its possible purpose.

 8     Colonel Djurdjic often forwarded such lists to the medical services of

 9     the Main Staff for them to check what it was about.

10        Q.   Okay, Mr. Kralj.  Thank you very much for that.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would like to tender, Mr. President, this

12     document, 65 ter 3238.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

15     Exhibit P2860.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

17             We would request the Registry to ask the technicians during one

18     break to do something with the microphone of Mr. Gajic and the microphone

19     of Mr. Tolimir.  Both have some problems with that.

20             Mr. Gajic.

21             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, about this document, I

22     would like it to be marked for identification until the final version of

23     the translation.  I think that the last sentence of paragraph one is not

24     correctly translated.  In the Serbian version, it says, "plan smo

25     sacinili." [In English] "We put together." [Interpretation] "We made or

Page 18459

 1     drafted plan," whereas the translation reads, "We put together a plan."

 2     That may give rise to a confusion in people reading this translation,

 3     this very last sentence of paragraph one, which in the translation reads:

 4             "We put together a plan based on authorisation from the

 5     co-ordinating body ..."

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it, Mr. Gajic, that this is more a request

 7     for clarification and for checking the correct translation of the

 8     document.  The document will remain as an exhibit, but this request we

 9     take it and we will deal with that, and I think this resolves the

10     problem.  This is the normal procedure if there are any doubt if the

11     translation is correct.

12             Mr. Gajic.

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  Of course this

14     is the regular procedure.  I would just like to direct your attention to

15     the initial phrase in that sentence which reads, "We put together ..."  I

16     believe that this may not be fully clear.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now on the record and the relevant people

18     will deal with that.  Thank you.

19             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Mr. President, I have a concern that I'd like to express to the

22     Trial Chamber, but I don't think I can do it in the presence of the

23     witness.  I would just ask if he could just be excused for a moment.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No problem.

25             Mr. Kralj, you've heard the request of Mr. Prosecutor.  Please

Page 18460

 1     leave the courtroom for a moment and you will be called back soon.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             My concern is - and it's really not that big a deal - but my

 6     concern is in respect of Mr. Gajic's objection to the admission of the

 7     document or the translation issues that concern it.  With this particular

 8     witness, he does speak English, he's fluent in English, as I think he

 9     testified, and obviously in his own language.  My concern is that when

10     those types of objections are made in front of the witness, it might

11     signal to him, obviously, to question either the document or the

12     translation of the document and that kind of thing.

13             So I don't mind that Mr. Gajic makes an objection, I think it's

14     appropriate for him to do that, but if it's of the nature, he can simply

15     say, I have an objection to the quality of this particular translation.

16     But to flag specific provisions in front of the witness I think is more

17     problematic.  But I don't -- as I said, it's not a big deal, but just in

18     the future, during the course of the cross-examination, I think it might

19     be better to deal with it in a more obtuse way, in a broader way, rather

20     than so specifically.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you get the floor, Mr. Gajic.  I would

22     like to clarify.  It was not an objection to the admission of this

23     document.  It was a question if the translation is correct, and we should

24     recall the rules in this courtroom and this trial is not for Mr. Gajic to

25     address the Chamber with objections.  That would be the task of

Page 18461

 1     Mr. Tolimir himself as an accused who is representing himself.

 2             Mr. Gajic has a limited role to play in this courtroom.  But I

 3     understand your concern, and I think such a request to check if the

 4     translation is correct may be addressed to the Chamber in the absence of

 5     a witness, not to influence him.  On the other hand, Mr. Tolimir has the

 6     right to check these matters with the witness during his re-examination.

 7     So I think in that way we can resolve this problem.

 8             Mr. Gajic.

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I deliberately waited

10     until the witness finished his answer before I made my comment.  I only

11     pointed out one term that can be differently understood.  It was not part

12     of the examination of the Prosecutor.  I was -- I only pointed out a

13     phrase that was a bit vaguely translated.  I am not saying that it does

14     not correspond to the original but it may give rise to the confusion.

15             But this matter will not be raised in re-examination because the

16     witness has already answered what the procedure was to approve the

17     movement of humanitarian convoys so that it would be only the repetition

18     of something already dealt with.  I think that with regard to this

19     specific question, I think that the timing was right because the answer

20     had already been given.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I am content to leave it like this, and with the

23     Court's leave, I would like to have the witness back.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  I think in that way we have no conflict

25     anymore.  We agreed that these matters should not be dealt with during

Page 18462

 1     the examination of a specific document but only after that, and we leave

 2     it like this.  The witness should be brought in again.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Welcome back, Mr. Kralj.

 5             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kralj, I would like to show you another document.  It's

 8     65 ter 5729.  And I think you can see here that this is a document from

 9     the Main Staff.  It is report number 06/20-111 and it is directed to the

10     Drina Corps command.  And in this document it says:

11             "We hereby inform you that we agree to the implementation of the

12     UNHCR Belgrade weekly plan for which approval number 0468-HCR-288 was

13     given."

14             And then it proceeds to discuss how the plan is to be

15     implemented.  And my question to you is:  Here you can see that the term

16     "we agreed" to the implementation of the plan is used.  Is that due to

17     the same reasons that you gave with respect to the other document?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   If we go to the bottom of this document - and we'll to go to

20     page 2 in the English - we see a note.  And under that note it says:

21             "In addition to the quantities of beef given for Gorazde,

22     Srebrenica, and Zepa, which have been reduced fourfold, the transport" --

23     "the transport," rather, "of the following has not been approved ..."

24             And then there is a list of things:  Oxygen bottles, matches,

25     plywood panels for Srebrenica; matches and motor oil for Zepa; and oxygen

Page 18463

 1     bottles for Gorazde.  If the plan was approved - in this case we can see

 2     that the quantities of beef have been reduced fourfold - is that due to

 3     the same reasons that you gave with respect to the other document?

 4        A.   It was due to the same reasons, but I wanted to add that

 5     individual humanitarian organisations absent this note, which had

 6     previously been agreed upon with the co-ordinating body, tried to submit

 7     the original plan at the check-points so as to be allowed to transport

 8     quantities which were not allowed.  That is why this note was put in to

 9     pay attention to the quantities because sometimes they would show another

10     plan which they had submitted original simply trying to have it processed

11     the way it was.

12        Q.   When they submitted a plan, that is the humanitarian aid

13     agencies, with respect to the passage of a convoy, they would have to

14     show one that was approved, wouldn't they?

15        A.   Right.

16        Q.   So if they submitted a plan that was the original plan, it would

17     have had to have been approved in order for them to even think about

18     showing it at a check-point; right?

19        A.   Yes, under normal circumstances.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to tender this

22     document as well.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 75 -- I'm sorry,

25     5728 -- yeah, one more correction.  5729 shall be assigned Exhibit P2861.

Page 18464

 1     Thank you.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 3        Q.   I would like to show you P2507.  This is another document

 4     concerning -- well, rather, it's another document from the Main Staff.

 5     It's dated 22 April, 1995, report number 06/17-368.  And this one says --

 6     it's directed to the UNPROFOR command in Sarajevo.  So it deals with

 7     UNPROFOR movements.  And it says:

 8             "We hereby inform you that we have not approved the movement of

 9     the following convoys," and it lists them.

10             It's one through eleven.  And it is signed by

11     General Milovanovic.  I would like to go through this document just a

12     little bit.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can go to the first page -- I'm sorry, the

14     second page in the B/C/S, and the third page in the English.  Yeah, I

15     think we have got that right.

16        Q.   The first thing I would like to do is focus on the handwriting at

17     the very top of the page.  Do you recognise the handwriting at the top of

18     the page and the initial or signature?

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   And whose signature or initials is that?

21        A.   ZT, Zdravko Tolimir.

22        Q.   And the handwriting as well, do you recognise that?

23        A.   It's the same pen.

24        Q.   All right.  Fair to say it's the same person?

25        A.   The same person.

Page 18465

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can zoom out just a moment.

 3        Q.   This particular convoy refers to the passage of a convoy number

 4     23-309/04 [Realtime transcript read in error "23-2309/04"] through the

 5     check-point on Kobiljaca.  It refers to one of the purposes being to

 6     provide fuel.  You can see that in a kind of a square -- a rectangle,

 7     rather, that's marked in pen.  And it's for all units in the Sarajevo

 8     sector.  This particular convoy was not approved.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can go to --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.  Put the convoy number on the

11     record again, please, because it was incorrectly recorded.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The convoy number was

13     23-309/04.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And just for the record, it's listed as convoy

16     number 1 on the first page of this document.

17             If we could just go to the next page in both -- page 5 in

18     English, thank you.

19        Q.   Here we can see another convoy.  Same signature -- or, rather,

20     same initials, same handwriting; right, Mr. Kralj?

21        A.   I think so.

22        Q.   And this convoy request concerns the movement of a company of the

23     Main Staff of the BH command from Sarajevo to Kiseljak of UNPROFOR,

24     obviously.  It in part requests fuel, you can see it says "diesel,"

25     that's underlined, and then 30 cubic metres of diesel with respect to a

Page 18466

 1     Sarajevo-bound convoy at item number 6.  That's on page 6 of the English

 2     translation.  If we go to item number 2, it says that:

 3             "The purpose of the journey is to provide the company of the Main

 4     Staff of the BH Command of UNPROFOR with diesel for vehicles and

 5     generators of the company of the Main Staff."

 6             Was it your understanding that there was a prohibition on the

 7     fuel made available to the UNPROFOR command?

 8        A.   There were no restrictions, but there were attempts to supply the

 9     UNPROFOR command with excessive quantities of oil or fuel, which would

10     then be put on some convoys in an attempt for it to reach the enclaves.

11     That is why the restrictions were imposed.  Of course, the UNPROFOR

12     command had to specify a request in order to receive additional

13     quantities of fuel.  This is what the Main Staff noticed and that is why

14     the restrictions were introduced.

15        Q.   What I would like to do is to take you to page number 10 in the

16     B/C/S, and I believe it's 19 in the English.  Yes, that's right.  At the

17     top of this page we can see, again, the initials.  Are they the same,

18     first of all, that you identified previously?

19        A.   The initials are the same but I think the handwritten note reads:

20             "Linked to the next request."

21             Well, it could all be the same person.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can zoom out, please, in the B/C/S

24     version.

25        Q.   This convoy request is 23-02 and corresponds to item number 9 on

Page 18467

 1     the first page of this document.  And it concerns a request for the

 2     movement from Zepa to Sarajevo of a convoy and it relates to the movement

 3     of certain personnel.  And it says:

 4             "Purpose of journey:  Transfer from Zepa."

 5             That's underlined.  And the personnel concerned are UN military

 6     observers.  Do you see that under item number 4?  Are you able to make

 7     that out, Mr. Kralj?

 8        A.   I can see that.

 9        Q.   This convoy also was not approved.  And if you can look -- maybe

10     we need to go to the next page in the English.  We have this personnel,

11     and they have described that they would be using a Land Cruiser with a UN

12     license plate number 9818, and it lists the following cargo:

13             Personal equipment:  Five binoculars, two Sony walkman, a Toshiba

14     walkman, one Sony radio, one Philips radio, three bullet-proof jackets

15     and helmets, one compass, one capset which has to be taken to be

16     repaired.

17             Let me show you the next one which will be page 21 in the

18     English.  Yes, and we have it in the B/C/S as well.  This is convoy

19     number 23-03, and it's related, obviously, to the one that precedes it.

20     This one says, "ne," and it has these same initials.  Same person; right?

21        A.   The initials are definitely the same, and I suppose it is the

22     same person.  Can I comment something, though?

23        Q.   Sure.

24        A.   This illustrates frequent movements of military observers with a

25     single vehicle from the enclaves to Sarajevo.  What else was for the

Page 18468

 1     military observers to do than to observe the situation in the field and

 2     forward reports to their superior command?  That was the only reason why.

 3     Sometimes in critical security situations some restrictions were imposed

 4     on their passage.  Colonel Djurdjic monitored exactly how many times each

 5     military observer went one way or the other.  The conclusion was that

 6     they were observing our communications more than observing the area they

 7     were mandated to observe.

 8        Q.   Well, the link between these two documents is an interesting one

 9     because the convoy 23-02 relates to personnel that are leaving the area

10     of Zepa, and this one relates to personnel going in.  In effect, what you

11     see here is a rotation; right, Mr. Kralj?

12        A.   You are quite right.

13        Q.   And if this request is denied, it means that these units cannot

14     rotate; right?

15        A.   As I said before, this could perhaps have been in a specific

16     period and no rotations could take place then.  What followed was

17     subsequent discussions between Djurdjic and Coiffet or their military

18     representative where such issues were being discussed and decisions made

19     as to when specific rotations could take place.  It didn't mean that

20     there were no rotations at all.  It just meant that they probably took

21     place later on when people from the Main Staff and the UNPROFOR command

22     who were in charge of relaying such information agreed.  I think on our

23     side there was Colonel Milos, I believe that was his name, and

24     Colonel Coiffet on behalf of UNPROFOR.

25        Q.   Mr. Kralj, in this particular document you can see these

Page 18469

 1     troops -- or, rather, observers, are being proposed to rotate in for the

 2     ones that were coming out in request 23-02.  But they are also

 3     rotating -- requested to rotate in with certain supplies.  The other

 4     request that is to take observers out of Zepa, you will remember, listed

 5     a capset which was in need of repair.  And here under item 5 you can see

 6     that --

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry, we will have to go to page 22 in the

 8     English.

 9        Q.   You can see that the capset or a capset is being proposed to

10     replace the broken one in Zepa.  In addition to that, the request is for

11     personnel equipment, a couple of shovels, a radio receiver with

12     headphones, a couple of spare wheels, a battery charger and some

13     batteries, a walkman, Sony radio, an adapter, a couple of speakers, a

14     videotape, a radio with headphones, one carton of juice, 6 litres of

15     orange juice, a couple of kilogrammes of chicken, some cigarettes, some

16     sweets and vegetables, presumably for the units that are still there in

17     Zepa.

18             Can you see any real obvious military reason to restrict this

19     rotation?

20        A.   I don't know exactly why this was not approved, but I'll try to

21     clarify.  The equipment that was used and that was specified on this list

22     was not for the needs of the unit but for the needs of the specific three

23     observers if let through so that they would have it for their consumption

24     or a certain period of time, or perhaps to give it to someone else since

25     there was a general shortage of milk, sugar, and coffee, so that they

Page 18470

 1     could play host to someone else in the enclave with whom they were in

 2     contact.

 3             Military observers were usually accommodated separately from the

 4     UNPROFOR seat or office in the enclaves.  They had a different house or

 5     facilities.  This is for their use, not for others.  If the entire

 6     document was not approved, it means that none of it was let through, at

 7     least not at that time.  Perhaps it was approved later unless there were

 8     certain restriction, if it was deemed that they carried equipment that

 9     was not necessary.  It was part of the regular conversations between

10     Colonel Djurdjic and Colonel Coiffet.  I know that there were specific

11     issues with arranging such rotations.

12        Q.   You know that?

13        A.   I know of the general problem and that they met frequently.

14     Apparently there were too many requests for rotations and observer

15     movement.  The observers rotated more frequently than was customary.

16     That is what I was talking about.  What does it mean?  Under the excuse

17     of rotation, they actually carried out reconnaissance along the routes

18     they moved.  They could, for example, go once from our territory to the

19     other and then observe the situation on their way back as well.  If they

20     did the same trip five times, they reconnoitred five times.  If it

21     happens within only 15 days, then their activity was controlled.  That is

22     why such rotations were often in dispute.

23        Q.   Well, Mr. Kralj, you probably know this, having testified for the

24     Miletic Defence and now for the Tolimir Defence, but it is the

25     Prosecution's case in this case - as it was in the Popovic case - that

Page 18471

 1     these kinds of restrictions and limitations on UNPROFOR's activities and

 2     their ability to rotate and their ability to supply their forces was a

 3     deliberate act that was engaged in by the VRS in collusion with the RS

 4     authorities to strangle those enclaves and to effect a policy that had

 5     been put in place at least since March of 1995.  What do you say to that?

 6        A.   I did not busy myself with politics.  I dealt with specific

 7     issues, and my knowledge refers to the implementation of convoy passage

 8     as well as to movement along specific routes in and out of the enclave.

 9     Politics took place on a higher level and I was not privy to it.

10        Q.   Thank you for that, Mr. Kralj.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to tender this

12     document -- oh, I'm sorry.  It's in.  All right.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's already an exhibit.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I am prepared to move to my next topic after the

15     break, with your leave.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  We need now our first break and we will

17     resume at 12.00 -- at 11.00.  Sorry, at 11.00, the usual half an hour

18     break.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Please carry on.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Mr. Kralj, we were talking about a convoy request with respect to

Page 18472

 1     some UN military observers going in and out of Zepa, and I'd asked you a

 2     question about your knowledge concerning policies that were in place with

 3     respect to restricting their ability to rotate.

 4             This Trial Chamber has received evidence, and in particular I am

 5     referring to the testimony of a UN military observer, who stated as

 6     follows.  At page 5644 of the transcript of this trial, the question was

 7     put to him by the Honourable Judge Nyambe:

 8             "I have just one question for you, Mr. Kingori:  How many UN

 9     observers were involved towards the fall of Srebrenica and during the

10     fall of Srebrenica?"

11             The answer was:

12             "Your Honour, initially we were six military observers in

13     Srebrenica, but three of them were unable to get -- were allowed to get

14     out of the enclave during the normal rotation.  We used to get -- after

15     you work continuously for that days, you're allowed to go out of the

16     enclaves after six days, but this time the three had been denied

17     permission by the BSA to go out until it reached a point whereby the

18     three of them were to go out at the same time.  So they were allowed at

19     that time, but no replacement was allowed for these three.  So we

20     remained, the three of us, in the enclave."

21             And his answer continues.  He also provided evidence in the

22     Popovic case, the one in which you testified.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And this is for the benefit of our

24     Trial Chamber, Exhibit P950.  If we have it in e-court, then it will be

25     page 20 in e-court, otherwise I will just identify for the record what I

Page 18473

 1     am reading from.  It's at page -- transcript page 19171 through 172,

 2     starting at line 20.  The question was:

 3             "Now, sir --"

 4             19171 we will need in the -- that's just the previous page, I

 5     think, in e-court.

 6        Q.   The question is put at line 18:

 7             "Now, sir, in June 1995, did anything happen that affected the

 8     size of your team?"

 9             This is the same observer.

10             Answer:

11             "Your Honour, this is the time that some of the UNMOs who were

12     inside the enclave finished their time of staying.  In fact, if we start

13     slightly before that, we had every month, after working 30 days, a" --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down while reading.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:

16        Q.   "... an UNMO would be given six days off so that he can go back

17     to Zagreb, or whatever he wants, so that he can relax and come back

18     already refreshed so that he can be used better.

19             "During that period," this is at ending page 172, "that is,

20     somewhere in [sic] April, they started denying that UNMOS, that is, the

21     BSA started denying the UNMOs permission to leave the enclave.  So there

22     was a long stay until three observers were due now for rotation, and the

23     BSA said they cannot give clearance for them to get out.  So, later on,

24     they allowed them to get out; and upon their exit they said they cannot

25     allow anybody else to come in to replace them.

Page 18474

 1             "So, in effect, we were left, just three of us; me, myself;

 2     Major Andre De Haan from Holland; and Major David Tetteh from Ghana.

 3     Those were the only observers who were left in the enclaves at that

 4     time."

 5             Now, having read that to you, Mr. Kralj, let me ask you first:

 6     Are you aware of these restrictions as concerns the UNMOs, UN military

 7     observers, related to Srebrenica?

 8        A.   I am not privy to these matters relating to military observers.

 9        Q.   What about matters relating to the rotation of DutchBat troops in

10     Srebrenica?

11        A.   I am only familiar with that document I recognised, and I know

12     that there were talks between Milos and UNPROFOR representatives about

13     rotation.  I was not personally involved in rotation-related matters, nor

14     did I know how many military observers there were in Srebrenica, who they

15     were, nor did I ever have a chance to meet them.

16        Q.   The Trial Chamber also received evidence from a DutchBat officer

17     regarding this or a similar issue.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And that's P598.  If we have it, it should be

19     e-court page 18.  And for the record, it's transcript page number 2449

20     from the Popovic case.

21        Q.   The same one in which you testified.  And the question is at

22     line 15.  Question:

23             "Now, how about with respect to the DutchBat troop rotations,

24     sir?  Were there restrictions placed on DutchBat's ability to rotate its

25     soldiers in and out?"

Page 18475

 1             Answer:

 2             "Yeah, well, we could say till the end of March or April that

 3     was -- there were problems with those convoys, personnel convoys, but

 4     that was more teasing than operational danger, in fact, but as of April

 5     it was finished.  We had quite a lot of guys out who couldn't come in

 6     anymore."

 7             He's asked about what the fighting strength of his unit was, and

 8     he answers beginning at line 25:

 9             "About 300.  To be exact, I believe 318."

10             At page 2450, question:

11             "And after the VRS restrictions kicked in, sir, you mentioned

12     that you had a lot of soldiers who couldn't come in anymore.  What were

13     you down to?

14             "A.  In the end we had 147.

15             Question:

16             "And during this time when you were experiencing these

17     restrictions, did you have a team [sic] that you used within the

18     battalion for what was going on?

19             "A.  Yes.  We called that convoy terror."

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I think you misspoke in the --

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry.  "A term."  You're right.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  "A term" instead of "a team."

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:

Page 18476

 1        Q.   My question to you, Mr. Kralj, is:  These DutchBat soldiers

 2     rotated in and out or were to rotate in and out by way of a convoy, a

 3     personnel convoy.  That's something that would be directed to your

 4     sector, isn't it?

 5        A.   All requests for UNPROFOR passage should have been notified in

 6     line with the regular procedure through my sector.  Yes.

 7        Q.   And so the denial of convoy requests to move personnel by

 8     UNPROFOR is something that would be handled by your sector and the

 9     personnel within the Main Staff that you indicate -- indicated previously

10     dealt with those matters, yes?

11        A.   The sector dealt with the administrative matters and with the

12     implementation of procedures that were required for the movement of

13     UNPROFOR convoys in the enclave.

14        Q.   Let me show you a Defence exhibit in this case, D122.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much.  We will have to go to

16     page -- it should be 93 in the B/C/S.  And in the English it should be

17     page 56.

18        Q.   This, as you can see, is a report from the Secretary-General

19     pursuant to the General Assembly Resolution 53/35 regarding the fall of

20     Srebrenica.  What it talks about in this particular -- well, if you begin

21     at paragraph 233 it talks about the squeeze of the enclave by the BSA, as

22     it's referred to here, or the VRS.  And it says at paragraph 233:

23             "The BSA continued to tighten their squeeze on the safe area from

24     mid-February onward, progressively limiting the already restricted flow

25     of humanitarian aid into the enclave and constraining the provision of

Page 18477

 1     supplies to DutchBat."

 2             I would like to take you to paragraph 235 which we will find at

 3     page 94 in the B/C/S, same page I think in the English.  And here it

 4     talks about the commanding officer of DutchBat, who says -- in the second

 5     sentence it says:

 6             "He complained that since 26 April the BSA had not allowed a

 7     single member of his battalion to leave the enclave or enter it (thus,

 8     those who had gone on leave previously were unable to return, lowering

 9     the battalion's strength by approximately 150 soldiers)."

10             You saw just a moment ago in the testimony of a DutchBat officer.

11     It says:

12             "He added that there had been no food delivered in March.  No

13     fresh food, dairy products, flour products or meat had been brought into

14     the enclave since May."

15             And that:

16             "The BSA had also continued their now four-month-old restrictions

17     on spare parts and engineering equipment being brought in for the

18     battalion."

19             And that:

20             "They also blocked supplies of fuel for UNPROFOR which resorted

21     to borrowing fuel from the UNHCR and to replacing vehicle patrols with

22     foot patrols."

23             My question is pretty much the same, Mr. Kralj.  The effects that

24     the commanding officer of DutchBat is talking about are directly related

25     to the approval or disapproval of convoy requests which would have passed

Page 18478

 1     through your sector; isn't that correct?

 2        A.   That is not correct.  No decisions as to letting something pass

 3     or not were taken in our sector.  Only the commander was in a position to

 4     make such decisions:

 5        Q.   Okay.  Your sector processed those request, yes?

 6        A.   Administratively.

 7        Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you P710.  This you can -- this

 8     document, you can see, is a cable.  It's directed to Kofi Annan.  It's

 9     dated 18 April 1995.  It's a UN document.  And it refers to air resupply

10     to the eastern enclaves and Sarajevo.  And under item number 2, it says:

11             "All of the air planning is in response to previous and current

12     BSA intransigence in refusing requests for fuel and other convoys into

13     Sarajevo and the enclaves.  Should this situation worsen and should the

14     BSA wish to use resupply as a political and military lever, then the

15     contingency plan must exist for using helicopters for resupply of UN

16     forces."

17             If we go on to item number 4 which should be on it next page for

18     both documents, it says:

19             "The following additional information further clarifies the

20     situation."

21             Under item A, it says:

22             "Srebrenica."

23             And it says that:

24             "Srebrenica has been using UNHCR stocks of diesel fuel of which

25     38.4 cubic metres have been used so far.  The battalion reduced

Page 18479

 1     consumption rates some three weeks -- some weeks ago to 3.5 cubic metres

 2     per day and has now cut consumption to 1.5 cubic metres per day.  Strict

 3     limitations have been placed on the use of vehicles and generators.  The

 4     operational effects have resulted in a much reduced patrolling

 5     programme."

 6             That's for Srebrenica.  For Zepa, which is item number C, it says

 7     that:

 8             "No vehicle -- there is no vehicle patrolling in Zepa and the

 9     company is using wood for cooking and candles for light."

10             This is in April of 1995.  Those items would be, similarly, the

11     subject of convoy requests handled administratively by your unit and

12     approved or disproved by the commander of the Main Staff or whoever it is

13     that the commander designates; isn't that right, Mr. Kralj?

14        A.   The information you have put forward just now aren't anything I

15     am familiar with, but you know that the sector dealt with the convoy

16     passage from the administrative aspect.  We were also involved in talks

17     at the lower level with UNPROFOR about problems related to the passage of

18     these convoys.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Kralj, you said, "... about problems related

20     to the passage of these convoys."  What do you mean by that?  What kind

21     of problems?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I merely want to say

23     that UNPROFOR did have contacts with Colonel Milos Djurdjic.  They had an

24     officer at the same level as Colonel Djurdjic and they dealt with

25     problems with the passage of convoys.  It may have been about the

Page 18480

 1     approval or non-approval of the passage.  These problems would be

 2     discussed at meetings.  They would call themselves and that occasionally

 3     took place either at the Pale office or at the Sokolac office.  They had

 4     the opportunity to discuss in detail approvals or non-approvals from a

 5     previous period.

 6             The procedure didn't stop with the failure to approve a convoy.

 7     UNPROFOR could call a meeting and discuss the matter to see what the

 8     problem was, and there were such meetings, indeed.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can I take from your answer that you were

10     familiar with the problems occurring during these passages, especially

11     problems because of a non-approval of the convoys; is that correct?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I am saying that

13     Colonel Djurdjic was familiar with all information and all problems.  I

14     was an interpreter, and I knew what he was willing to tell me or what he

15     considered as necessary for me to know to be able to draft a document

16     related to convoys, which document was necessary for the work and the

17     functioning of the sector.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I put this question to you because you said, "We

19     were also involved in talks at a lower level with UNPROFOR," "we."

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only had the opportunity once to

21     be involved with Colonel Djurdjic in talks about the co-operation between

22     UNPROFOR and our sector.  I was there in the capacity of an interpreter.

23     That's why I said "we," otherwise Colonel Djurdjic was the only one to

24     attend such meetings.  He relied on the interpreters from Pale who were

25     very good.  They were Serbs who were staying at Pale; whereas, the

Page 18481

 1     UNPROFOR officers were subordinate to the UNPROFOR command in Sarajevo,

 2     or to Colonel Coiffet who sent [indiscernible] notifications through

 3     them, and also through them received approvals or non-approvals.  I was

 4     not part of the process.  I was only able to stand in for

 5     Colonel Djurdjic in case of his absence but merely administratively.

 6     That means that Colonel Djurdjic was in charge of all matters related to

 7     the enclaves.  I didn't even know how many soldiers there were in

 8     Srebrenica, and I can also add that I never went there.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we can go to the

11     next page in the English.  And I think there is a translation as well, at

12     least of the headings, in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   And what this reflects is an attachment referred to in item 5 of

14     this document concerning the provisions that were made available to the

15     enclaves, and it's a chart of UNHCR supplies.  What I'd like to refer you

16     to is the particular entries for Srebrenica and Zepa.  You can see in the

17     first column - January through April, that is - it says "requirements

18     total."  And for Srebrenica and Zepa it is 678 tonnes and 159 tonnes

19     respectively.  Then it says "requirements food."  And you will see those

20     numbers are the same.  And then it says in the last column, January

21     through April, "delivered."  And I want to focus you particularly on the

22     months of March and April.

23             For Srebrenica in the month of March 1995, this reflects that 547

24     tonnes were delivered out of the 678 required.  For the month of April

25     that figure dropped to 363 of the 678 required.  And for Zepa those

Page 18482

 1     figures were 124 tonnes of 159 for the month of March that made it

 2     through, and 68 out of 160 for the month of April.

 3             Were you aware that the amount of aid, in this case food being

 4     delivered to those enclaves, was dropping for those months as is

 5     indicated in this document?

 6        A.   I wasn't aware of that, and I was not in charge of following the

 7     issue of what and how much entered the enclaves.  I was not following the

 8     figures, whether they went up or down.

 9        Q.   Let me show you a Defence exhibit in this case.  It's D209.  This

10     is an exhibit that General Tolimir showed you during the course of your

11     direct examination.  And it comes from someone by the name of Novakovic.

12     Do you remember this document, Mr. Kralj?

13        A.   I do recall this document as something that was shown.

14        Q.   Now, I have to confess that I haven't gone through and done all

15     the math on this document, but if we focus on the month of April for

16     Zepa, you will see that the tonnage of material that month starts out

17     with 77 tonnes, and that's of flour; 7 and a half tonnes of beans; 5

18     tonnes of beef; 7 tonnes -- it looks like oil, cooking oil.  And the next

19     tonnage entry looks like 2 tonnes of detergent and 0.4 tonnes of sanitary

20     towels, I think.  The total amount that was indicated in the document

21     that I showed you before was about 68 tonnes out of 160 that were

22     required.  This one probably reflects - as I said I haven't done the

23     math - a little bit more than 90 or between 90 and 100 out of 160.

24             This is information that was given to you or provided, rather, to

25     your sector; isn't it?

Page 18483

 1        A.   This information was forwarded to the sector on request, but I

 2     wasn't in charge of this issue.  I merely recognised the document and I

 3     know who sent it.  As for the quantities, that is something I am seeing

 4     only for the second time.  I saw it for the first time when

 5     General Tolimir showed it.  This is the second time.  I know, though,

 6     that the sector and Colonel Djurdjic received information, and I know who

 7     he received it from as well as who he sent information to as part of his

 8     work.

 9        Q.   For the month of April for Srebrenica, in this same document, you

10     can see the tonnage reflects 387 tonnes of flour; 44 tonnes of beans;

11     21.6 tonnes of canned beef; and so on and so forth.  You can see this all

12     the way down the document.  What I showed you just a moment ago, the UN

13     report indicated that for the month of April in Srebrenica about 363

14     tonnes of goods got into the enclave.  This document by Novakovic

15     reflects what appears to be somewhere around 400 to 450 tonnes of the 678

16     that's indicated that would be required, which I submit to you is

17     substantially less than what was required for that enclave.  This is

18     information that Colonel Djurdjic was made aware of; right?

19        A.   I have never seen the plan put together by the international

20     organisations or the co-ordinating body as to how much of what was

21     planned to be forwarded to the enclaves.  Perhaps it was at the level of

22     the co-ordinating body, but I didn't see that document in the sector

23     offices.

24                           [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:

Page 18484

 1        Q.   All right, Mr. Kralj, I am done with this document.  Let me ask

 2     you a couple of other things.  Let me show you P714.  This as you can see

 3     is a document.  It's a daily reporting to the Security Council.  It's a

 4     UN document from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan.  Under item number 2 it reports

 5     that:

 6             "None of the UNHCR convoys to the enclaves have received

 7     clearances."

 8             By the way, this is the week -- I'm sorry, the date is

 9     14 June 1995.

10             "None of the UNHCR convoys to the enclaves have received

11     clearances.  The Srebrenica convoy has been cancelled.  The Sarajevo

12     convoy has not left Zenica."

13             And it says:

14             "The BSA are demanding a 50-50 share of the aid to which UNHCR

15     will not agree.  The UNPF resupply convoys have suffered a similar fate."

16             Do you know about the restriction of these convoys as late as

17     June 1995?  Because before you referred to a period, and I was showing

18     you a document in April 1995.

19        A.   I hear for the first time that this 50-50 share was something

20     that was requested.  I am not familiar with that.  And I have no

21     information about any restrictions in this month.

22        Q.   Let me show you 65 ter 7586.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  This is a document, Mr. President, that I will

24     need to add to the Prosecution's 65 ter list.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, is there any objection to that?

Page 18485

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since I

 2     have seen the document, I have no objection to having admitted documents

 3     which will only assist you in making the right decision.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Leave is granted to add it the 65 ter list.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have to say we

 6     don't have a B/C/S translation of this document.

 7        Q.   So I will read parts of it, if that will assist you, Mr. Kralj.

 8     But I do know you speak English as well, so let me know if you need me to

 9     do that.  But it is a weekly situation report.  You can see at the top it

10     says, "UNPROFOR Office of Civil Affairs."  And then it has a number.  The

11     number is 108.  And it says 26 February to 4 March 1995.  What I would

12     like to do is to take you to page 5 of this document, under item number

13     15, which talks about Srebrenica supplies.  And it says here that:

14             "After the UNPROFOR troops in Srebrenica literally ran out of

15     food (they consumed their last combat rations on 03 March), the BSA

16     finally agreed today after several prior refusals to allow the troops

17     resupply.  The BSA, explained that they have no objection to food

18     deliveries, only to fuel, continue to refuse the delivery of fuel to

19     Srebrenica and they continue to refuse medical supplies into the three

20     eastern enclaves."

21             Now, during this period of time this is -- I'm sorry, this is

22     February through March, you would have been receiving requests for

23     medical supplies, supplies for UNPROFOR troops in your department or

24     sector?  That's correct, isn't it?

25        A.   If there is a specific request, perhaps show it.  There were some

Page 18486

 1     such requests.

 2        Q.   Were you aware of the situation with respect to the restriction

 3     of supplies to UNPROFOR and medical supplies in and around this period of

 4     time?

 5        A.   I see this document for the first time.  I was not aware of a

 6     policy to impose restrictions on the goods specified.

 7        Q.   Okay.  But my question is:  Were you aware of the situation that

 8     was developing as a result of the restrictions?

 9        A.   Mr. President, I have said already that I was not familiar with -

10     and it was not part of my job as interpreter - to know what the situation

11     was like and what the problems were in the protected areas.

12        Q.   I appreciate your answer, Mr. Kralj, but my question isn't -- my

13     question is, rather, did you know about it?  Whether you were an

14     interpreter or private citizen or in any other capacity.

15        A.   I knew what I could learn from the media, but I had no specific

16     knowledge.  I was only aware of what was available to everyone.

17        Q.   All right.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to tender this

19     document.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification, pending

21     translation.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7586 shall be

24     assigned Exhibit P2862, marked for identification pending translation.

25     Thank you.

Page 18487

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would like to show the witness P2091.

 2        Q.   This is another UN document.  I think we have a translation for

 3     this one.  We do.  It's dated 7 March 1995, and it is from

 4     Lieutenant-Colonel Baxter to the commander.  And it concerns a meeting

 5     between General Smith and General Mladic on 7 March 1995.  You will see

 6     in the very first paragraph of this document your name, and in particular

 7     it says that a meeting took place between General Smith and General

 8     Mladic at a hotel.  It says that the meeting was at the invitation of

 9     General Mladic and that General Smith joined the meeting directly from

10     his visit to Srebrenica.  It says that General Mladic was accompanied by

11     Major-General Zivanovic, who was the commander of the Drina Corps at that

12     time, and Lieutenant-Colonel Kralj, who he characterises here as an

13     intelligence officer and interpreter on General Mladic's staff.

14             Do you remember this particular meeting?

15        A.   I recall the meeting, but I have a correction to make.  This is a

16     mistake.  I have never been an intelligence officer, only an

17     interpreter --

18        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

19        A.   -- or a liaison officer.

20        Q.   Thank you for that correction, Mr. Kralj.  Let me take you to

21     item number 4 in this document.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We will have to go to page 2 in the B/C/S.

23        Q.   At the bottom of page 4 in the English there is a heading,

24     topical heading: "Humanitarian issues - enclaves."  And it says:

25             "Mladic [Realtime transcript read in error "Million"] asked

Page 18488

 1     General Smith for his impressions from his visit to Srebrenica.

 2     General Smith registered his concern over the shortages of medical

 3     supplies held by NGOs in the area and the general supply of shortages of

 4     DutchBat within the enclave."

 5             General Mladic reported that he had cleared food and medicine

 6     convoys to Srebrenica and Zepa over the last 24 hours.  Do you remember

 7     this information being passed on to General Mladic at that meeting?

 8        A.   Mr. President, I was an interpreter at this meeting.  That was my

 9     capacity there.  And I was far more busy with interpreting everything

10     correctly than I paid attention to the contents.  General Smith spoke the

11     kind of English which posed problems to me.  In other words, I do recall

12     the meeting but I no longer remember the details.  Only a document could

13     jog my memory, perhaps.

14        Q.   Well, I was hoping this one would, but if it doesn't, I'll leave

15     that be.  Let me show you another document.  It's another Defence

16     document.  It's D79.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record, on page 45, line 18, the first

18     word should read "Mladic."

19             Please carry on.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Mr. Kralj, do you remember being shown this document during your

22     direct examination?

23        A.   This concerns a convoy from Metkovic.

24        Q.   Let me show you item number 8, which should be on page 2 of both

25     of these versions.  It says under item number 8 - and this is in order -

Page 18489

 1     president of the republic, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, and this was directed to

 2     the Main Staff:

 3             "To allow departure of the teams of MSF (Medecins Sans

 4     Frontieres) from Gorazde and Srebrenica and postpone the entrance of new

 5     ones for an indefinite period of time."

 6             Were you aware of this particular document and this particular

 7     order?

 8        A.   As far as I recall, I wasn't aware of it.

 9        Q.   This is something that Colonel Djurdjic would have been aware of;

10     right?

11        A.   He ought to have been.

12        Q.   And it's something that the generals in the Main Staff would have

13     been aware of, too?  An order from the president?

14        A.   A presidential order is usually addressed to the commander of the

15     Main Staff who then made decisions as to who should or should not be

16     acquainted with the document in question.

17        Q.   In this particular document, and item 8 specifically, the

18     movement of teams of MSF workers is something that would fall within the

19     purview of a humanitarian aid convoy or movement; right?

20        A.   I see at the bottom that it was sent to the state committee for

21     co-operation with the UN and international humanitarian organisations.

22     It had to do with the work of that committee, first and foremost, because

23     it was the committee who approved the passage of humanitarian

24     organisations.  As for the medical part, this was within the purview of a

25     representative of the Ministry of Health and Social Welfare.

Page 18490

 1        Q.   Well, let's go to page 1 of this document.  The document as you

 2     can see is dated 13 June 1995; right?  And it says:

 3             "On the basis of the conclusions of the state committee for

 4     co-operation with the UN and international humanitarian organisations

 5     made on 8 June 1995, I issue the following order:"

 6             Now, the movement of MSF workers or MSF supplies is something

 7     that should go through the co-ordinating committee as you've previously

 8     testified; right?

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:

12        Q.   And the regulation of the movement of those individuals or those

13     supplies is something that is notified to the Main Staff; right?

14        A.   Right.

15        Q.   And the Main Staff then notifies subordinate units or organs in

16     order to inspect, control, and administer the passage of those people or

17     goods; right?

18        A.   Right.

19        Q.   So this is something that would have had to have gone to the

20     Main Staff so that the Main Staff could do its job; right?

21        A.   One can always see from a document who it was addressed to.  It

22     either has the list of addressees at the bottom on the left-hand side or

23     there is a stamp, a stamp confirming its receipt and registering.

24        Q.   Okay.  So your answer is you don't know if the Main Staff

25     received the document, I guess?

Page 18491

 1        A.   I don't know because I have not seen it.

 2        Q.   Okay.  In practice, it should have?

 3        A.   Possible.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you -- before I show you this next document --

 5     rather, let me call it up, but -- it's going to be P554.  But with

 6     respect to the document that's on the screen now, that should have gone

 7     to the commander of the Main Staff as an order from the

 8     Supreme Commander?

 9        A.   If it is addressed to the Main Staff, then it should have reached

10     it.

11        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you P554B.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is under seal and should not be broadcast.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   What I am showing you is an intercept [microphone not activated]

15     dated 17 July at 2055 hours.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Prosecutor.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Sorry.

19        Q.   At 17 July at 2055 hours.  And it concerns an exchange between

20     someone named -- we are going to have to go to the next page in the

21     B/C/S, please.  It's the last intercept here, 2055.  Thank you.  It

22     concerns a conversation between someone named Trivic and someone named

23     Jankovic, Colonel Jankovic.

24             First of all, did you know a Colonel Jankovic in the Main Staff?

25        A.   I do not remember anybody by that name.

Page 18492

 1        Q.   Do you remember anybody by the name of Radoslav Jankovic,

 2     Colonel Radoslav Jankovic?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   The Trial Chamber has heard evidence that

 5     Colonel Radoslav Jankovic was an intelligence officer in the intelligence

 6     administration of the security and intelligence sector of the VRS.

 7        A.   There were some people in that sector with whom I didn't have

 8     contact.  I do not remember a Colonel Jankovic.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, this is a conversation between Colonel Jankovic and

10     a person named Trivic, and you can read it.  It says:

11             "Give me Colonel Jankovic.

12             "Just a second."

13             And then he gets on the line and says:

14             "I am listening."

15             And Trivic says:

16             "Well, Jankovic.

17             "Listen here.  Miletic said that you should write what you want

18     to do and send it urgently by code up to Tolimir.  I am in no position to

19     write," Jankovic says.

20             And Trivic says:

21             "Listen to what I am telling you."

22             And then says -- Jankovic says:

23             "All right."

24             And Trivic says:

25             "And the commander will decide with Tolimir and send you a

Page 18493

 1     reply."

 2             I want to show you another document which is P2168.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, just to let you know, you have

 4     approximately ten minutes left for your cross.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   This is document as you can see which is directed to -- this is a

 7     document which you can see which is directed to the security and

 8     intelligence department of the -- rather, sector of the Main Staff.  You

 9     can see at the bottom of the -- this particular document it indicates the

10     name of Momir Nikolic.  We will have to go to page 3 in the -- I think

11     it's 3 in the B/C/S.  And then we have a corresponding translation for

12     that.  And we can see the handwritten version of this document.  And at

13     the bottom, on the next page - we will have to go to the next page,

14     please - you see the initials "RJ."  And the Trial Chamber has heard

15     evidence that that RJ is Radoslav Jankovic.  In this document you can see

16     that it's dated 18 July.  And I want to draw your attention to item

17     number 3 in this document which says that:

18             "The Medecins Sans Frontieres convoy, which arrived on 18 July

19     1995, at 1400 hours, at the Ljubovija crossing, for transportation of

20     their staff from the UNPROFOR base in Potocari was sent back for

21     procedural reasons (apparently they should have entered via Zvornik)."

22             If you go further down, you will see it says:

23             "Will you please tell me what stand to take in terms of

24     authorisation for evacuation of the International organisation, Medicins

25     Sans Frontiers, in fact, how to deal with the so-called local staff."

Page 18494

 1             Did you get information about this particular request?

 2        A.   I have never seen or heard of this request before.

 3        Q.   It makes sense, would it not, that Colonel Jankovic would have

 4     sent this request for instruction to General Tolimir?

 5        A.   I cannot answer that.  I am not sure.

 6        Q.   It makes sense that this issue would have been brought to the

 7     attention of Colonel Djurdjic?

 8        A.   Not even Colonel Djurdjic had to be acquainted with all details

 9     of the activities of the security organs in the field.  It was not usual

10     practice to do that.

11        Q.   Let me show you 65 ter 383 -- P.  I'm sorry, P383.  383B.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should not be broadcast because it's under

13     seal.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We will have to go to the next page.

15        Q.   You can see that this one is dated 19 July, and we will go to the

16     intercept at 1432 hours.  This is an intercept, as you can see, between

17     Jankovic and Colonel Djurdjic.  We can go through it briefly.  It says:

18             "Djurdjic:  Colonel Djurdjic speaking."

19             That's about the fourth line down.  And then it talks about:

20             "Djurdjic:  The boss has ordered that they be halted."

21             Jankovic says:

22             "Yes.

23             "Djurdjic:  This is what he wrote.

24             "Jankovic:  Yes.

25             "Djurdjic:  Kristina Smit [phoen], the nurse, can go.

Page 18495

 1             "Djurdjic:  Daniel O'Brian [phoen].

 2             "Djurdjic:  The physician."

 3             If we go to the next page in the English.  And they discuss women

 4     and children.

 5             And then Jankovic says:

 6             "So, they have permission from the Koljevic government?"

 7             And Djurdjic says:

 8             "Yes.

 9             "That they can all go, they have a list," Jankovic says.

10             "Djurdjic:  Yes, I know ..."

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We will have to go to the next page:

12             "Yes, I know ... can I see the names" -- "I can see the names,"

13     rather.

14             And he starts naming individuals.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We will have to go to the next page in the

16     B/C/S, please.

17        Q.   And he names Abdulah Kurtovic, Ibrahim Ibrahimovic?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should go back one page in English.  There you

19     go.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:

21        Q.   And you can see the names there:  Muhidin Husic, Muhamed Hasic,

22     Masic, Sahin Talovic, Hajrudin Kurtic, Omer Talovic.

23             And if we continue down, you will see that Djurdjic says:

24             "All right, they have the permission, but you know that the

25     procedure you, too, took part in ..."

Page 18496

 1             Jankovic says:

 2             "Great, if that's your position, it's good."

 3             Djurdjic says:

 4             "The procedure is such, God damn it, that it should be checked

 5     whether those who" -- "whether those who ... are they able-bodied or

 6     older than 60."

 7             And ask Jankovic --

 8             Jankovic says:

 9             "They are able-bodied."

10             And he confirms it.

11             And so Djurdjic says:

12             "So that's the procedure.  And you know [sic] what you left

13     behind in Bratunac the other day."

14             This conversation, the Trial Chamber has received evidence of,

15     and I will show you, concerns the so-called local staff of the MSF.  And

16     in particular, Djurdjic is referring to a procedure related to whether or

17     not these individuals are able-bodied or older than 60.  Can you tell me

18     what information you had, if any, about the circumstances of the

19     evacuation of these so-called local workers for MSF in your unit or

20     sector?

21        A.   Your Honours, I have never seen this before.  I don't know the

22     person in question.  The other one, I mean.  Nor did I have any

23     information from Colonel Djurdjic about any talks he was involved in, nor

24     was it present when this took place.  I haven't the faintest idea about

25     this case.

Page 18497

 1        Q.   If we can continue down.  It says:

 2             "Let the elderly go, and tonight, when Toso arrives, you and him

 3     must make sure you consult some more ..."

 4             Who is Toso, Mr. Kralj?

 5        A.   I cannot identify Toso here.  I didn't contact anybody in that

 6     area who was called Toso.

 7        Q.   Do you know anybody by the name of Toso?  Did you at that time?

 8        A.   There was no such name on the list.

 9        Q.   Do you know anybody by that nickname?

10        A.   A nickname is something else.  General Tolimir may have been

11     called Toso by some people, but that wouldn't be anything I know for

12     sure.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could have 65 ter 7583 in e-court, please.

14     And it's transcript page 29289.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What about the remaining time for your

18     cross-examination.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have one other document that I would like to

20     show Mr. Kralj.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just want to make sure that Mr. Tolimir has the

22     chance to re-examine the witness today.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. President.  I don't know

24     if Mr. Gajic or Mr. Tolimir is in a position to let us know.  That would

25     be helpful to me, anyway.

Page 18498

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, do you have any idea how much time

 2     you will need for your re-examination?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think I'll have about five

 4     questions.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then you should bear that in mind,

 6     Mr. Vanderpuye.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   What I would like to refer you to, Mr. Kralj, is beginning at

 9     page -- line 6 of this page.  You were asked this question by

10     General Miletic's lawyer with respect to a document.  It was a convoy

11     document that was put to you.  And it reads:

12             "Do you recognise the initials underneath the handwritten comment

13     that we see at the very top of the page?"

14             And you say:

15             "This is General Mladic's initial."

16             Then she asks you:

17             "Something is handwritten, and we see -- and then the rest is

18     illegible.  Who is Toso?"

19             And your answer was:

20             "General Tolimir."

21             You know Toso to be General Tolimir.  That's correct, isn't it,

22     Mr. Kralj?

23        A.   I know that General Mladic called General Tolimir Toso, and that

24     is what I confirmed.  However, talking about the document we have just

25     seen, I don't know if Colonel Djurdjic means General Tolimir.

Page 18499

 1     General Mladic did call the general Toso sometimes; however, those with a

 2     lower rank than his did not call him that.

 3        Q.   Let me show you P1214.  This is a Main Staff document.  It's

 4     dated 17 March 1995.  And it says:

 5             "Directive for upcoming operations."

 6             It says:

 7             "Enclosed with this document we are sending you the directive for

 8     further operations number 7."

 9             And you can see there General Milovanovic's name.  First of all,

10     have you seen this document before?

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should go back to the first page in English,

12     and there must be a corresponding page in B/C/S.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The corresponding page in B/C/S, for some

14     reason, is at the end of document.  So if we go to the last page in the

15     B/C/S, we will find the corresponding page.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, there it is.  Now, please, repeat your

17     question to the witness.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:

19        Q.   Have you seen this document before?

20        A.   I had no opportunity to see this document.

21        Q.   Let me show you the first page of it.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We will have to go to the second page in both.

23        Q.   Do you recognise it now?

24        A.   In the upper right-hand corner, there is the confidentiality

25     indication.  Lower levels, and especially mine, were not allowed to see

Page 18500

 1     documents qualified or classified as state secret.  No, I haven't seen

 2     any document of this type.

 3        Q.   All right.  You can see the top of this document is dated

 4     8 March 1995.  And let me just take you to -- it should be page 11 in the

 5     English and -- just bear with me one moment.  It should be page 8, I

 6     think, in the B/C/S.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The preceding page in the English, please.

 8        Q.   At the bottom of the page, you will see it says, "Drina Corps."

 9     It says:

10             "Enemy break-throughs along selected operative-tactical lines

11     should be prevented by extremely persistent and active defence in

12     co-operation with part of the forces of the SRK on the north-west part of

13     the war front and around the enclaves.  As many enemy forces as possible

14     should be tied down by diversionary and active combat operations on the

15     north-west part of the front using operational and tactical camouflage

16     measures, while in the direction of the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves

17     complete physical separation of Srebrenica and Zepa should be carried out

18     as soon as possible, preventing even communications between individuals

19     in the two enclaves."

20             And then it says:

21             "By planned and well-thought-out combat operations create an

22     unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope of further survival

23     or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa."

24             Have you seen that before?

25        A.   This is the first time I see it.

Page 18501

 1        Q.   Have you heard of it before?

 2        A.   Your Honours, nobody familiarised me with the military political

 3     situation or these activities.

 4        Q.   I want to take you to the next-to-last page in the B/C/S, please.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And we'll have to go to the next-to-last page in

 6     the English, too.

 7        Q.   Here, I want to direct you to what is the third paragraph from

 8     the bottom in the English.  It talks about moral and psychological

 9     support in item 6.1.  But in that -- under that topic, it says:

10             "The relevant state and military organs responsible for work with

11     UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisations shall, through the planned and

12     unobtrusively restrictive issuing of permits, reduce and limit the

13     logistics support of UNPROFOR to the enclaves and the supply of material

14     resources to the Muslim population, making them dependent on our good

15     will while at the same time avoiding condemnation by the international

16     community and international public opinion."

17             Have you heard that before?

18        A.   No.  I am not familiar with this document.  It is possible that

19     Colonel Milos had some information, but he didn't relay it to me because

20     of this high confidentiality classification.

21        Q.   The specific reference to UNPROFOR and the supply of aid to the

22     Muslim population and humanitarian organisations referred to in this

23     passage is something that falls within Colonel Djurdjic's competence;

24     right?

25        A.   Your Honours, that is true.  I believe that the colonel was

Page 18502

 1     abreast of that, but I didn't know anything.  He didn't relay such

 2     information to me because such secrets are only passed on to other

 3     persons with the obligation on the latter to sign for this information.

 4        Q.   Would you follow a directive like this if you received it?

 5        A.   Your Honours, I said last time, too, that a question of the type,

 6     "what would you have done if," is not appropriate.  I would certainly

 7     have opted for the lesser evil, but there is the rule of subordination in

 8     the army.  That doesn't necessarily mean that I would have been part of

 9     that chain, too.  Please don't make me comment on things that are

10     inappropriate.

11        Q.   What you said, Mr. Kralj - and this was in your Popovic

12     testimony - at transcript page 29371, starting at line 23 - this is

13     65 ter 7583 - through page 29372, line 18, was as follows, "My question

14     to you was" --

15             "Maybe there was a translation error, but my question was:  You

16     wouldn't follow that directive, would you?"

17             And your answer was:

18             "I would warn the ones who would be issuing such a directive of

19     the consequences.  In our army, orders were not executed blindly.  If

20     something was unclear, there was the option of asking for additional

21     explanations."

22             What would you warn someone issuing such a directive of?  What

23     consequences were you referring to in your answer?

24        A.   First of all, everything you read out is correct.  As part of my

25     military education, I also attended a post-war course in international

Page 18503

 1     laws of war, which was a bi-weekly course organised by the ICRC in Italy.

 2     I learned many things there as to what things one may be held responsible

 3     for during wartime.  And I also know that if a superior is making a

 4     mistake in the way a decision was made, a subordinate officer should warn

 5     him.  And I'm saying this because I am trying to say that if my superior

 6     decided something, I may not be held accountable.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.  And

 9     I appreciate your indulgence.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We are over the time for

11     the break.  We need our second break now.  It will be a little bit

12     shorter and we should resume at 1.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, before you get the floor, let me put

18     one small question to the witness.

19             Mr. Kralj, you travelled here with a passport.  When did you

20     request to get a passport to your -- from your Serbian authorities?

21     Approximately.  It's not necessary to give us an exact date.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After a conversation I had with

23     counsel.  He asked me if I had a passport.  I told him I did.  It was

24     still valid but it was not the new BiH passport.  He instructed me to get

25     a new passport then, and the RS authorities, as part of regular

Page 18504

 1     procedure, issued my passport on the 12th of December, 2011.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Says the witness.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I submitted a request a few weeks

 4     before that.  The 12th of December, 2011.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Kralj, I take it that you had a conversation

 6     with the team member of Mr. Tolimir in December or even earlier; is that

 7     correct?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the passport was issued.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I put this question to you

10     because at the beginning of the cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye, you

11     said you were contacted first by Mr. Gajic some 20 days ago.  That would

12     be at the beginning of January.  But now, I think, you have corrected

13     that and you were contacted first already last year; is that correct?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

16             Mr. Tolimir, now you may commence your re-examination.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, can you tell us where you were in

20     July 1995 at the time of events in Srebrenica?  Thank you.

21        A.   General, sir, during the events in Srebrenica, I was in

22     Banja Luka attending a burial of my mother-in-law.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In April and May 1995, did it happen that some

24     convoys were approved by the Main Staff following notifications without

25     the convoys actually being realised across RS territory?

Page 18505

 1        A.   There were such announced convoys.  They were approved but did

 2     not go through at the time.  It was never explained why.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kralj, as regards observer rotations in the

 4     demilitarised zone, were they taking place individually and on a daily

 5     basis or according to shifts and in keeping with the announced dates for

 6     observer rotations?

 7        A.   Rotations were supposed to take place periodically.  The

 8     time-period in question should have been several days apart, but it also

 9     happened that certain individuals were replaced even after shorter

10     periods of time.

11        Q.   Thank you.  On page 60 of today's transcript, lines 1 through 10,

12     Mr. Vanderpuye asked you what caution you would issue to your

13     supervisors.  Do you recall that?

14        A.   Could I see the document again, please?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the Court Usher, you will

16     see it in a minute.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you.  I will remind you he was reading from a directive of

19     the Supreme Commander and a decision of the corps commander.  And then he

20     put the question.

21             My question is this:  Could you caution or warn the

22     Supreme Commander and the corps commanders, and did you know whether you

23     were shown documents in the Main Staff or whether there were such

24     documents produced in the Main Staff such as the one shown to you by

25     Mr. Vanderpuye before he put his question?

Page 18506

 1        A.   General, sir, I am not familiar with anything contained in such

 2     documents.  My department or me, personally, could not suggest anything

 3     that we were not familiar with.  The question was a general one to the

 4     effect that, if I received an order as an officer, if I could comment

 5     before implementing the order.  So it didn't pertain to the Main Staff in

 6     general.  My explanation relied on the system of subordination.  I was a

 7     lieutenant-colonel.  If Djurdjic ordered me to do something, I could tell

 8     him what I thought about what he had ordered.  That's what I had in mind.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  Can you tell us whether you were shown

10     documents of the Main Staff when the question was put to you by

11     Mr. Vanderpuye?  Was it a Main Staff document or were these documents

12     sent to the Main Staff?

13        A.   In the signature block, I could see the signature of the

14     president of the republic which means that the Main Staff received it

15     from him, and the president was at a different location.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kralj.  Thank you for the answers you provided to

17     us and the Prosecution.  Thank you for your testimony, and thank you for

18     sharing your point of view with the Chamber about the issues at the time.

19     I have no more questions for you.  I would like to thank you and wish you

20     a safe journey and may God bless you with a long life.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no

22     further questions of this witness.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

24             Mr. Kralj, you will be pleased to hear that this concludes your

25     examination here in the Tribunal.  Thank you very much that you were able

Page 18507

 1     to come here and provide us with your knowledge and expertise.  Now you

 2     are free to return to your normal activities.  Thank you very much,

 3     again, and goodbye.

 4             We adjourn for the day, and we will resume on Monday in this

 5     courtroom at 2.15 in the afternoon.

 6             One moment, please.  My colleague reminded me that there was a

 7     request that Mr. Kralj would have the opportunity to visit Mr. Tolimir in

 8     the Detention Unit.  Now he is released.  He is a free man.  If there

 9     are -- he will better know than we do, because the Chamber is not

10     involved in these procedures, how that could be arranged that the witness

11     could visit, not in his capacity as a witness but as a free man to come

12     to the Detention Unit and carry out a visit.

13             Mr. Gajic, you may be in a position to assist Mr. Kralj in that

14     respect.

15             Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Tolimir was

17     notified that the visit was approved, but we still don't know the fate of

18     Mr. Kralj's request.  We were told that we would be informed once

19     Mr. Kralj's testimony was over.  So, for the time being, in other words,

20     we are unable to tell you anything more than that.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As everybody will be aware, the Registry is the

24     relevant institution to deal with these matters and to decide on such a

25     request, not the Chamber, but I talked to the Court Officer and he will

Page 18508

 1     forward this request immediately to OLAD so that a decision can be made.

 2     And I think, Mr. Kralj, after we have left the courtroom, you may discuss

 3     it and get further information by the Registrar here in the courtroom.

 4             Thank you very much.  We resume on Monday and now we adjourn.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.17 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day

 9                           of January, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.