Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18730

 1                           Thursday, 2 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.  The

 6     witness should be brought in, please.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, Mr. Skrbic.  Welcome back to the

 9     courtroom.  Please be reminded that the affirmation to tell the truth

10     still applies.  Mr. McCloskey is continuing his cross-examination.

11             You have the floor, Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  And good morning, Mr. President,

13     Your Honours, everyone.

14                           WITNESS:  PETAR SKRBIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:  [Continued]

17        Q.   General.  And I think we left off with P2520 up there, the

18     12 of July document.  That was the request to the ministry for the

19     mobilisation of the buses.  And as I recall it, general, you received a

20     verbal request from someone from the Main Staff the night before this

21     actual request, and then you spoke to someone from the ministry and they

22     wanted you to get it on paper.  So on the morning of the 12th, you had

23     this typed off and sent it off.  Is that roughly correct?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   And so the night of the 11th when you got this call, can you just

Page 18731

 1     roughly give us any idea of about what time it was or was it after

 2     dinner, was it late, was it before you ate?  Any recollection about that?

 3        A.   Mr. McCloskey, my memory is not fresh, but it was certainly in

 4     the afternoon and most probably in the evening hours.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And just for a moment can we go to P1744.

 7        Q.   This is, I think, one of those aerials you were mentioning where

 8     we have a date.  Unfortunately, we don't have a time for this.  But we

 9     see it's Bratunac.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we zero-in on the centre of that -- right

11     there, yes.  Where the marking is.  Yeah, right up in --

12        Q.   Now, we see -- I can tell you, sir, that Mr. Ruez and others have

13     identified -- we see -- stay there for one second.  The football stadium

14     of Bratunac is up in the right-hand corner.  You can sort of barely make

15     out that big field area with bushes around it.  And as we go to the left,

16     yes, right there where the arrow is, that's the football stadium.  And as

17     we go towards the left on the main road in the dark -- yeah, keep going,

18     good, good, and then down.  Right there where that arrow is, that's a

19     line of buses on the 12th of July.

20             So it appears that your request, your oral request, and your

21     follow-up request was acted on very efficiently.  And we've also seen

22     video on the 12th of July with General Krstic giving an interview [where

23     there's buses going by.  So to your recollection, were buses able to get

24     to the stadium on the 12th of July, or are you learning it from me?

25        A.   Your Honours, this is the first time I've heard about this from

Page 18732

 1     Mr. McCloskey because I didn't monitor the implementation of our request

 2     to the ministry of Republika Srpska.  As you saw in the previous

 3     documents, the Secretariats of Defence had to report to the

 4     Ministry of Defence.  The Ministry of Defence did not have to report to

 5     the Main Staff on the manner in which our request for the mobilisation of

 6     buses had been carried out.  Your Honours, I didn't have the

 7     responsibility to monitor the movement of buses -- of those buses.

 8             This aerial photograph, Mr. McCloskey, clearly shows that these

 9     are some kinds of vehicles.  And if you enlarge them, they couldn't be

10     anything but buses.  That's probably the case.  But some look like

11     trailers.  An expert for analysing such photographs - and you certainly

12     had such an expert - would be in a position to provide you with more

13     relevant comments.

14        Q.   All right.  Well, if this -- as everyone knows, as you've said

15     yesterday, this is General Mladic's request for buses for the army, isn't

16     it?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   So you -- who in the army would be responsible for monitoring

19     that this order would be carried out and to dealing with -- with the

20     buses?  Certainly informing General Mladic and others whether this was

21     happening.

22        A.   In the army, the operations centre would be responsible for

23     monitoring the situation, but on the roads themselves, Your Honours, it's

24     the civilian police, the traffic police, and the military police to a

25     certain extent that escort this convoy.  Since this road was a threat

Page 18733

 1     from combat activity, there was also security that was provided for that

 2     column but that was indirect support.  Some units were at their

 3     positions - I can't name them - and they protected those roads.  And the

 4     military police also provided direct protection for the roads so that the

 5     buses could reach their destinations.

 6        Q.   So I was asking about who in the Main Staff, and so you're saying

 7     it's operations, so it's General Miletic's operation that would have been

 8     in charge of monitoring this request and implementing it?

 9        A.   There is a duty officer in the operations centre who leads the

10     operations team.  General Miletic couldn't do that all the time.  He

11     couldn't have been there 24 hours a day, and this person is in charge of

12     the situation and is involved in communications.  He's involved in the

13     communications between General Mladic and those who are responsible for

14     monitoring the task.  He is a sort of mediator, in fact, a communications

15     mediator.

16        Q.   General, you told us that assistant commanders were experts in

17     implementing orders of General Mladic.  So I know that -- of course, we

18     all know that you and others have subordinates, but are you saying that

19     it would be General Miletic that was overall and responsible for

20     implementing this order and monitoring it?  Clearly 50 buses and them

21     coming to Bratunac is going to take some work.

22        A.   No, not only General Miletic.  All of us had our responsibilities

23     in a certain sense.  You've quite correctly understood the duties, the

24     responsibilities I had.  As for the other aspects of those duties, well,

25     these can be -- one can see how they are carried out when monitoring the

Page 18734

 1     way in which the task is implemented.  The logistics sector also has its

 2     security.  They had to obtain and secure 10 tonnes of fuel, I think.

 3        Q.   Were you involved in the mobilisation of fuel for these buses?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Do you know who got the fuel for buses and where they got it

 6     from?  The Court knows how valuable and how rare fuel was in those days.

 7        A.   Your Honours, if it would be possible for you to protect me from

 8     speculation.  I could try and guess who obtained or who supplied the

 9     fuel, but I don't know who did so.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, it's your obligation to answer the question

11     to the best of your ability and knowledge.  And, as in the past days, you

12     should tell Mr. McCloskey everything you know.  And if you don't know,

13     you should indicate it.  It's not a question of speculation.  You are a

14     well-trained army officer.

15             Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

17        Q.   And, general, I don't want you to speculate.  Just so you know

18     that my questions will not incorporate speculation.

19             On the morning of the 12th, when you were able to get the paper

20     work off to the ministry, what was your knowledge as to the purpose of

21     those buses?

22        A.   I knew that the purpose of the buses was to evacuate people.

23        Q.   Which people from where?

24        A.   I didn't know which people or from where.  Or, rather, I knew

25     that the buses were to arrive at the stadium at Bratunac at a certain

Page 18735

 1     time, but I didn't know which people they were to transport.

 2        Q.   So you didn't know the ethnic group of the people?

 3        A.   No, I didn't.

 4        Q.   When did you demobilise these buses?  As the mobiliser requester,

 5     I would think that you would be the one that would do the paperwork

 6     demobilising them, sending them back.

 7        A.   No, Mr. McCloskey.  The Ministry of Defence has the

 8     responsibility for demobilisation because they mobilised them.

 9        Q.   All right.  When did General Mladic release those buses back so

10     that they could get back to their normal routes and pick up people and

11     take them to work and all the other disruptions that we saw caused by

12     your mobilisation request?  Given that you are the one following Mladic's

13     order to mobilise, you would have, of course, known when General Mladic

14     didn't need them anymore and to be able to tell the ministry that they

15     were coming back, or am I wrong on that?

16        A.   No, that's not correct.  I didn't know when it would no longer be

17     necessary to have the buses.

18        Q.   When did the buses go back to the ministry?  You were on duty

19     those days.

20        A.   I assume that they weren't returned to the ministry but were

21     returned to the secretariats and municipalities that mobilised them.

22        Q.   That's what I meant when I said "to the ministry."  When did that

23     happen?

24        A.   I don't know the exact date.

25        Q.   Just roughly tell us how many days or weeks you have knowledge

Page 18736

 1     that they were used by the army for, General Mladic used them?

 2        A.   Well, Mr. McCloskey, perhaps about ten days at the end of July.

 3     There were tasks that had to be carried out.  They were essential and

 4     this was the result of the attack of the Croatian army and the ABiH in

 5     the west of Republika Srpska.  So we no longer concerned ourselves with

 6     that problem.  When I say "we," Your Honours, I have all the generals

 7     from the VRS Main Staff in mind and most of the officers from the

 8     Main Staff.

 9        Q.   When did you first learn that the buses that you helped mobilise

10     were used to take the women and children and old men from Potocari and

11     Bratunac to Muslim territory?

12        A.   I don't remember the first time, but I saw video recordings of

13     the event of that entire process.  I saw such videos on the television or

14     on a computer.  Well, the Tribunal, in fact, provided such a video, and

15     it's also possible to see these video recordings on the internet and you

16     can then see what actually happened.  Or, rather, I could see that.  I am

17     not referring to you.  I do apologise.  But in the Serbian language it's

18     sometimes possible to say "we" when you mean yourself.  But I saw this in

19     this video recording.

20        Q.   When?  And I don't need exact, but when it was happening, a day

21     or two later, a week or two later?

22        A.   Well, during those days, at that time there was a video recording

23     broadcast on television - I don't know which channel - in Han Pijesak.

24     We could watch the Republika Srpska television.  I am not sure what its

25     name was at the time.  We could also watch the Bosnia-Herzegovina

Page 18737

 1     television --

 2        Q.   Excuse me, General.

 3        A.   -- and again I don't know the exact name.

 4        Q.   Excuse me.  You've told us about your ability to watch the

 5     television.  I just need to know when you found out about the movement of

 6     the population.

 7        A.   I can't remember, Mr. McCloskey.

 8        Q.   Now, the Judges in this case have heard that after some 20- to

 9     30.000 Muslim women and children or a figure somewhere around that amount

10     were bussed and trucked out of the Bratunac and Potocari areas on the

11     12th and 13th.  That on the morning of the 14th -- well, excuse me, on

12     the evening of the 13th continuing on to the morning of the 13th [sic],

13     some 5- to 6.000, at least, Muslim able-bodied men were bussed in a very

14     large number of buses and trucks from Bratunac to an area around Zvornik.

15     Were those the same buses and trucks that shipped the women out, or did

16     you have to mobilise new and different buses and trucks?

17        A.   You've seen everything that concerns mobilisation and documents

18     that have been presented at this trial, and also documents that have been

19     presented in other cases.  Fifty buses can transport 5- to

20     6.000 people -- well, it was necessary to mobilise other vehicles, and

21     you were able to see that in the documents, Mr. McCloskey, that were

22     presented by the Defence.

23        Q.   Were you, yourself, involved in mobilising additional vehicles

24     for the able-bodied men that were taken to Zvornik?

25        A.   I can't remember, Mr. McCloskey.  But if someone did submit a

Page 18738

 1     request, I wouldn't dispute the fact that that was transmitted through

 2     me.

 3        Q.   The Court has also heard evidence that many Muslim able-bodied

 4     men were transported all the way across Bosnia from the Srebrenica area

 5     in buses or at least a bus, if not buses, to the area of Trnovo, going

 6     across.  Now, how many corps zones would you have to go across from

 7     driving from the Bratunac-Zvornik area to get to Trnovo at that time with

 8     all the various front lines?  How many different corps would a bus driver

 9     have to go by or through?

10        A.   Two corps.

11        Q.   Which ones?

12        A.   The Drina Corps and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

13        Q.   And is there a rule when there are more than one corps involved

14     in a logistics situation or a battle situation that the Main Staff

15     normally gets involved to help co-ordinate that as opposed to just

16     letting the corps themselves do it without the Main Staff's knowledge?

17        A.   Mr. McCloskey, it's not necessarily always the case that the

18     Main Staff would control the situation because such an action is called

19     neighbourly co-operation.  They can co-ordinate certain activities

20     themselves.

21        Q.   If it was an order from General Mladic to take Muslims from

22     Srebrenica to Trnovo to be executed, would that be the kind of thing that

23     the Main Staff would do the monitoring and the co-ordination of?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.  You have the floor.  I said

25     "Mr. Tolimir."

Page 18739

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Peace

 2     upon this courtroom, and I would like this trial to be completed in

 3     according to providence, not according to my wishes.

 4             Mr. McCloskey -- it seems that Mr. McCloskey is putting to

 5     Mr. Skrbic that two corps had organised two trucks.  First he asked

 6     whether they crossed the territory of the two corps and now --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to stop you --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- this question calls for

 9     speculation.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to stop you.  That was not the question of

11     Mr. McCloskey.  He was talking about involvement of certain units of the

12     VRS.  He was not talking about two buses in that respect.  Please don't

13     put anything in your objection to a question which could give an

14     indication to the witness how to answer the question.

15             Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, as I think General Skrbic and

17     I understand, we are talking about this trip from the Zvornik area across

18     two separate VRS corps.  We are not talking about 2 Corps or 2nd Corps.

19     I don't know if that's the translation problem that it may be causing the

20     issue, but I think General Skrbic and I know, and it was fairly evident

21     because he named the Drina Corps and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

22        Q.   But in any event, general, can you answer my last question:  If

23     General Mladic had ordered busloads of Muslims be taken from the

24     Srebrenica-Zvornik area all the way across Bosnia to the Trnovo area to

25     be executed, would that have been monitored by his people from the

Page 18740

 1     Main Staff and implemented?  As you say, the assistant commanders are

 2     experts in that.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  This is

 5     again a leading question.  Let it be shown properly what is being

 6     presumed.  I didn't say "a leading question," I said it was a question

 7     that calls for speculation, and I am kindly asking the interpreters to be

 8     accurate.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It is imperative for me as a questioner to have a

12     basis of fact when I am asking him such a question, and my basis of

13     fact - as I am sure the Court will recall - are the Srebrenica

14     able-bodied men that were murdered in the Trnovo film in late July.

15     You've seen that evidence.  Those were Srebrenica survivors -- people

16     that survived up until the film, according to their relatives.  We've

17     also heard from the cameraman who said that he had heard of others that

18     he had come across, not just those six, in buses.

19        Q.   So my question is:  If able-bodied men, several of them, in one

20     or more buses, were ordered by General Mladic to be taken across Bosnia

21     to be killed, as we saw in the film, would that have been monitored,

22     implemented, by members of the Main Staff?

23             And I understand the general does not want to believe such an

24     order happened, but I have the right to ask him that in any event, even

25     if he doesn't believe it happened.  Would it have been monitored or

Page 18741

 1     implemented by members of the Main Staff?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would kindly ask

 4     Mr. McCloskey to tell us whether he is talking about the transportation

 5     about six soldiers in six buses or the transportation of six soldiers?

 6     The question is unclear.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, can you clarify it?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I am talking about six able-bodied men that we

 9     saw murdered.  They came out of a truck.  I don't know how they got

10     there, but I refer him specifically - and he will recall - the testimony

11     of the Serbian MUP videographer who said he had heard that there were

12     others in buses or a bus.  I can't remember if it was one or more.  And I

13     think we can all infer from the fact that it was more than just

14     six people that were sent to Trnovo, especially given the evidence by the

15     videographer.  That's the basis of my question.  He will recall that.

16     That's what I am asking about.  I am not making anything up here.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Skrbic, please answer the question of

18     Mr. McCloskey.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry.  What was

20     the question?  Could this question kindly be repeated to me.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

23        Q.   If General Mladic ordered the transport of one or more buses of

24     able-bodied Muslim men from Srebrenica across the Drina Corps and the

25     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps to Trnovo to be executed, who or what unit in the

Page 18742

 1     Main Staff would have monitored and implemented that order?

 2        A.   Your Honours, I am not able to answer this question using a

 3     conditional.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Skrbic and Mr. Tolimir, we have heard the

 5     last three days many questions during examination-in-chief about the

 6     structure, about responsibilities in the VRS and in the different units

 7     of the Main Staff.  That was not -- that was related to the knowledge,

 8     the deep knowledge of one of the six assistant commanders.  During

 9     cross-examination it is absolutely acceptable to put these kind of

10     questions to a witness.

11             So, Mr. Skrbic, if we take away the condition Mr. McCloskey put

12     to you, who would be responsible for monitoring the transport of people,

13     be it prisoners of war or others, from one area of responsibility of a

14     corps to another area of another corps?  Who would be responsible to

15     monitor such a movement in the Main Staff?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that would be units

17     of the military police.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   And, general, does the security organ of the brigades of the

20     corps and of the Main Staff have a professional responsibility over the

21     actions and use of the military police?

22        A.   Yes, professional responsibility.  But in terms of command, no,

23     because it has been stipulated by a singleness of command and

24     subordination.  I said, Your Honours, that members of the MUP as well,

25     but since no state of war was declared at the time, it is possible that

Page 18743

 1     they were involved in this escort in a co-ordinated action, but I don't

 2     know about that.

 3        Q.   Yes, general.  We understand that the MPs have their own

 4     commanders and they are commanded by their brigade commanders or their

 5     corps commanders or their Main Staff commanders, and the question had to

 6     do with General Mladic's issuing the command, and you've told us that it

 7     would be the military police involved.  And now you have agreed that it

 8     would be the security organs that oversee the professional management of

 9     the military police.  So it wouldn't be General Mladic managing the

10     movement of these prisoners, it would be the military police and the

11     security organs that manage them professionally.  Correct?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, let's avoid

14     hypothetical questions.  Can Mr. McCloskey give us any specifics

15     concerning General Mladic's order and confirm whether any such order

16     existed at all?  So let us not force the witness to give answers based on

17     assumptions.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I already explained the witness is

19     here to testify as that was -- as your witness to testify about the

20     internal structure and the chain of command in the Main Staff and in the

21     VRS.  So you put questions of that kind to the witness and Mr. McCloskey

22     is entitled to do the same during his cross-examination.

23             Sir, please answer the last question of Mr. McCloskey.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the affairs of the

25     military police and the organs of the security are not identical.

Page 18744

 1     Security organ from General Staff all to the brigade provide security of

 2     the facilities, whereas the military police is involved in combat and

 3     police work.  Therefore, my answer is that these two kinds of jobs cannot

 4     intermingle.  Why would security organs monitor the passage of any convoy

 5     whatsoever unless they suspected there might be some suspicious element

 6     within the convoy that might lead to sabotage actions or alike?  The

 7     military police and the security organs did not discharge identical

 8     duties.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   Colonel Ljubisa Beara was the chief of security in the

11     Main Staff, correct?

12        A.   Chief of security administration was Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara.

13        Q.   And for the Drina Corps it was Vujadin Popovic?

14        A.   The security chief at the command of the corps was Popovic.

15        Q.   And were you aware that from the 14th and the 15th and the

16     16th of July, that both Colonel Beara and Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic were

17     working very closely with the military police in the transport of the

18     able-bodied men to Zvornik?

19        A.   No, I wasn't.

20        Q.   Okay.  I think we can leave that subject.  Though, let me ask you

21     one question related to General Tolimir's --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you come to that, there is one thing

23     unclear for me.  I just wanted to clarify that with the witness.

24             Mr. Skrbic, you were asked, and this was my question:

25             "Who would be responsible to monitor such a movement in the

Page 18745

 1     Main Staff?"

 2             Your answer was:

 3             "That would be units of the military police."

 4             Were the units of the military police part of the Main Staff?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, they were part of the

 6     65th Motorised Protection Regiment, and this regiment was a staff unit of

 7     the Army of Republika Srpska.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What do you mean by that, a staff unit of the

 9     Army of Republika Srpska?  A unit of the Main Staff?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who was responsible in the Main Staff to monitor

12     the actions of this regiment?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander of the protection

14     regiment, Colonel Milomir Savcic.  He was directly subordinate to the

15     commander of the VRS Main Staff.  As for professional part of work

16     involving training, deployment, and training of security organs was under

17     the auspices of the security administration.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   We've heard here that the military police battalion of the

22     65th Protection Regiment, which had their base in Nova Kasaba, was

23     responsible for hundreds and hundreds of prisoners on 13 July, and their

24     commander, Mr. Malinic, met with Colonel Beara who was - as you've just

25     told us - the chief of the security of the Main Staff.

Page 18746

 1             Now, we've also heard from Mr. Keserovic.  What was his job in

 2     the Main Staff related to military police?

 3        A.   What was the duty of Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic?  Was that your

 4     question?

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   He was charged with professional supervision of the military

 7     police.  Not only in the 65th Protection Regiment but all across the

 8     entire structure of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to P02226.

11        Q.   And, general -- well, this is another line-and-block chart.  The

12     last one you saw with was used with Mr. Obradovic from the Main Staff.

13     This one was more complete.  We asked more questions.  I believe this was

14     General Milovanovic.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we zero-in on the section for rear

16     services, which is right there in the middle.

17        Q.   As we know, that's General Djukic's sector.  And I know this is

18     not very satisfactory, but we can see at the bottom there is a -- one of

19     the many separate units.  It's called the transport service.  And we see

20     a Lieutenant-Colonel Kerkez, Zeljko, in that.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If that can be just blown up.  Just that section

22     in each one.

23        Q.   Is this, as far as you know, the correct diagram or the -- was

24     there a transport service in the rear -- the rear services section that

25     was led by Lieutenant-Colonel Kerkez?

Page 18747

 1        A.   Your Honours, the accuracy of the translation cannot be said to

 2     be in the spirit of the Serbian language.  It was translated as

 3     "transportation service," whereas it should be "transport service."

 4     Anyway, this is not in dispute.  As for everything else that you said,

 5     Mr. McCloskey is correct.  The head of the transportation service in the

 6     logistics was, indeed, the person whose name is entered here and his rank

 7     is also correct.  Later on he became a colonel, but that is irrelevant at

 8     the moment.

 9        Q.   All right.  And did -- as far as your recollection, was

10     Colonel Kerkez or his unit involved with these -- any of these buses or

11     transportation issues associated with the buses that you made the

12     mobilisation request for, Srebrenica?

13        A.   Yes.  It was their duty to supply fuel.

14        Q.   And what did his unit do regarding this transportation of the

15     Muslims and the buses and the fuel, to the best of your knowledge?

16        A.   Well, there were no more than two or three persons in that

17     transportation service, and I don't know what they did exactly,

18     Mr. McCloskey.  I suppose that they co-ordinated all these activities

19     over the phone or whatever.  I don't know.

20        Q.   I am not asking for exacts and I don't want you to speculate.

21     Just tell us what you do know or you can reasonably infer.  That's fine,

22     too.  That's what -- General Tolimir was relying on your knowledge and

23     your ability to infer from his questions.  I don't want you to speculate.

24     Supposing doesn't help.  What did you know that this unit and these guys

25     were doing?

Page 18748

 1        A.   Apart from roads and co-operation with the civilian traffic

 2     police, I know for sure that one of their responsibilities was to supply

 3     fuel.  And since we are talking about buses, I presume that it was diesel

 4     fuel.  As for the other aspect of their scope of responsibility, that is

 5     something that I don't know about.

 6             Your Honours, if I know and I am knowledgeable about the

 7     structure of the army, its organisation and everything else, that's fine,

 8     but nobody can have full knowledge about what every organ is supposed to

 9     do.  So if I receive a request to provide such information about any

10     specific organ, I comply.

11             Now, I would like to add that my specialty is air force and

12     missile units.  Even if you ask me about my area of expertise, I couldn't

13     maybe give you always an answer because people tend to forget.  But to

14     ask me what each individual did, this is way too much.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Skrbic, there is no problem with that.  This

16     is the situation for every witness.  But you have to tell everything you

17     know.

18             Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 2738.

20        Q.   And, general, this should be another one of those intercepts,

21     like the one that General Tolimir showed you between a Krsmanovic and a

22     Toso, but this one is -- that one was on 16 July, this one is on 12 July,

23     the day we know that you sent your written request.  And we can see from

24     this that it's at 1425 hours, between a Lieutenant-Colonel Kerkez.  And

25     we have the translation "traffic," and he's identified as K, and an

Page 18749

 1     unidentified male, X.  And he identifies himself over the air and is

 2     speaking about a few trailer trucks needed to engage in the direction

 3     down towards Bratunac.  And X is -- they are talking about these vehicles

 4     leaving.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this document should not be broadcast.

 6             Please continue.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   And then Kerkez says:

 9             "Two buses report to you from the Eastern Bosnia Corps command,"

10     he gives the registration plates.  "Have them tanked up a bit ..."

11             And so this is just -- in your view, does this have to do with

12     the buses going to Bratunac on the 12th, the same thing you sent your

13     mobilisation request out for?

14        A.   Yes, there is a connection, Mr. McCloskey.  Only I presume --

15     sorry, if I am too close to the mike, but I have to look at the document.

16     Only I assume that these buses had already been mobilised in Bijeljina

17     because I see they have civilian license plates.  Let me draw your

18     attention to K entry where you have BN 110-147 and BN 110-20.  These are

19     civilian license plates, whereas the army had designations VRS.  But yes,

20     you're right.  There is a connection.

21        Q.   And your previous answer to me then would be correct because you

22     did say he was involved in this process and he's -- with fuel, and he's

23     at least saying tank up that one vehicle.  So that would leave us to

24     believe that you were correct in your answer regarding that?

25        A.   Yes, from the point of view of fuel supply, as I explained to

Page 18750

 1     you.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer that into evidence.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I just wanted to inquire whether

 6     this document is really under seal.  If not, there is no need to redact

 7     anything.  Please clarify, because I can't find it in your list of

 8     documents to be used with this witness.  Please help me with that.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It should be on my list.  We did send a few lists

10     over as we were collecting, so you may not have a recent one.  But we

11     cannot find any initials or any problems on it, so I don't think there is

12     a problem it being public.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then there is no problem with broadcasting it.

14     Please continue.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And -- and I would offer that 65 ter 2738 into

16     evidence.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go back -- oops.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2738 shall be

20     assigned Exhibit P2863.  Thank you.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could now go back to Exhibit P2656.

22        Q.   That's the 16 July intercept that the general told you about that

23     you spoke of for a while with him.

24             Now, did you know a Krsmanovic in the transport or traffic unit

25     of the Drina Corps or know of him?  We know personnel guys may not know

Page 18751

 1     everybody, but they certainly see a lot of names and promotions and such.

 2        A.   Mr. McCloskey, at the time I knew two individuals whose surname

 3     was Krsmanovic.  There was Aleksa Krsmanovic, assistant commander in the

 4     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps for logistics, and I also knew another Krsmanovic

 5     whose name I cannot remember.  At the time he was the Chief of Staff in

 6     the 2nd Romanija Brigade.  At the time I didn't know any Krsmanovic's

 7     from the Drina Corps.  I don't exclude the possibility that there was a

 8     Krsmanovic in that corps.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to 65 ter 7599.  That is a new

10     65 ter number, Mr. President, that I -- we've identified this in our

11     responding to the questions of this intercept.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, any objection to add this document

13     to the 65 ter list?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

15     objections to anything that might help to establish the truth.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, leave is granted to add it to the

17     list.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   And, general, it -- this looks like a personnel-type document.

20     As we see, it's from the commander of the Drina Corps, dated the

21     1st of October, 1995, Radislav Krstic.  And it has a person named

22     Rajko Krsmanovic, chief of the traffic and transport service in the rear

23     service organ of the Drina Corps and a colonel.  I am surprised you

24     wouldn't know a colonel in the Drina Corps right next to you in

25     Han Pijesak.  Does this help refresh your recollection?

Page 18752

 1        A.   Mr. McCloskey, it's a lieutenant-colonel, not a colonel.  And he

 2     wasn't with me in Han Pijesak, but you can see it's Rajko here.  There

 3     are two Krsmanovics.  There is Rajko and the Chief of Staff in the

 4     2nd Romanija Corps for a certain period of time, but here's the proof.

 5     Why didn't you show me this immediately so that I could tell you that

 6     it's a personal [as interpreted] document that concerns deployment.

 7        Q.   This is from General Krstic.  This should have hit your desk.

 8     Perhaps not.

 9        A.   I apologise.  Let me just have a look at the document.

10     Everything is a bit muddled here, and it's not addressed to anyone.  Why

11     would it be on my desk?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could I get some help, maybe.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, with the assistance of the Court Usher a

14     hard copy should be given to the witness.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we don't need to get into -- could he --

16     yeah.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First to Mr. Tolimir.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   General, we don't need to get into whether this would be your

20     desk or not.  Perhaps a recommendation like that this wouldn't get to

21     your desk.  I just want to ask you about it.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please give it to Mr. Tolimir.  Please give it to

23     Mr. Tolimir.  Wait a moment, please.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's on the screen, so I'm not -- it's not an

25     original.  I mean, it's fine, but --

Page 18753

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Let's let Mr. Tolimir look at it, the first page

 2     of it, of course.  Only that is on the screen.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now please give it to the witness.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   And, general, please take your time to look at it and the second

 7     page as well, and whether it's on your desk is not and really not an

 8     issue, and I don't mean to suggest it is.  So just take your time to look

 9     at it a bit, and why I asked you the question first is because I would

10     ideally like your recollections as opposed to you just repeating what you

11     see on documents.  So that's kind of normal in a trial.  So have you had

12     a chance to look at it?

13        A.   Mr. McCloskey, even before I was given the document, I wanted to

14     apologise.  So please accept my apology.  I didn't see the last sentence

15     which quite explicitly says that it was on my desk, because it's a

16     proposal for a promotion.  Your Honours, under the word "healthy" it

17     says:

18             "Fulfills the conditions stipulated by law for promotion ..."

19             And I immediately drew the conclusion that that had to be in the

20     sector where I worked with Colonel Malcic in the personnel domain, so

21     that's why I apologise, Mr. McCloskey.  I didn't have time to have a look

22     at the whole document.  And there is an explanation about this proposal

23     from the corps commander, this proposal for promotion.

24        Q.   Yes.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to the next page in both languages.

Page 18754

 1        Q.   And here is --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it this is attached to the hard copy the

 3     witness has in front of him?

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, it is, Mr. President.  And we see that -- I

 5     think we should see that they are -- they should be sequential

 6     ERN numbers, meaning they were stamped from one to the other, which

 7     indicates that when we got them they were next to each other.

 8        Q.   And what we see here, and I won't go over all of it in detail, is

 9     a discussion about his history and the good job he was doing.  And then

10     as we get down to the seventh paragraph -- it's actually the third from

11     the bottom.  It says:

12             "He put a lot of effort and with great success organised and

13     transported Muslim population from Srebrenica and Zepa."

14             So with this personnel document that you say should have gone --

15     or did go on your desk because you've already told us the Main Staff had

16     to approve these kind of promotions, and that you can see he was a

17     Drina Corps guy.  He was involved, according to General Krstic, with the

18     same kind of buses and stuff that Kerkez was that you just talked about

19     in the same unit, one -- Main Staff, Kerkez.  Krsmanovic, the corps.

20     Does this help refresh your recollection as to your knowledge of this

21     man, either his existence as a personnel guy that you didn't know or

22     someone that you actually now remember you knew because you might have

23     had contact with him?  Vlasenica and Han Pijesak being very close to each

24     other.

25        A.   Yes, but I didn't meet the gentleman until 1995, when he became

Page 18755

 1     the commander of a brigade in Romanija.  Or, rather, it was in 1996.

 2        Q.   Okay.  So you do now.  This helps you remember this person.

 3     Okay.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we briefly go to 65 --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So I would offer that document into evidence as

 7     well.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7599 shall be

10     assigned Exhibit P2864.  Thank you.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we now go to 65 ter 7597.

12        Q.   This is a -- a listing of the people on the Drina Corps on

13     April 29th, 1995, which includes Veljko Krsmanovic.

14             MR. McCloskey:  I would ask leave for this because it's on the

15     same topic.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am sure that Mr. Tolimir has no objection to

17     add this document to the 65 ter exhibit list.  As he generally told us

18     that he has no objection to this kind of application.  Please continue.

19     Leave is granted to do that this.  Please continue.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   And this is a document, general, that we received from the

22     Drina Corps collection that we have.  And is this the same

23     Veljko Krsmanovic we just saw being recommended for promotion?

24        A.   Your Honours, we have to be precise about something.

25     Mr. McCloskey is using the name "Veljko" but here it says "Rajko."

Page 18756

 1     Mr. McCloskey, could you please repeat your question, who do you have in

 2     mind, Veljko or Rajko?

 3        Q.   I'm sorry, thank you for correcting me.  Rajko, son of

 4     Veljko Krsmanovic, who was the person on the promotion recommendation.

 5        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Rajko Krsmanovic, son of Veljko, is on the

 6     list, and that is the individual concerned.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7597 shall be

10     assigned Exhibit P2865.  Thank you.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go to P1539.  Sorry, 1539C.

12        Q.   And this will be an intercept from 12 July.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In the B/C/S it's the --

14        Q.   It's the middle one, general, that starts at 0922 hours.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And this one should not be broadcast.  Yeah.

16     And --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it under seal?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It does have the name of --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yeah, it should not be broadcast.  That's fine.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Taking some time with the English, but I don't

21     need to spend too much time with this.

22        Q.   As, again, we see a Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic, unidentified

23     person.  And X tells him that they only have two buses, some other can be

24     mobilised without papers, without an order.  But they have a problem with

25     fuel.  They don't have enough of it.  How would they be able to get buses

Page 18757

 1     without mobilising them?  What would the options be?  I ...

 2        A.   From their own unit's sources.

 3        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next exhibit, P156 --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, can you please tell us, is this

 6     document under seal?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I am told it is, yes.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  It is not -- there is no

 9     indication that it is under seal in your exhibit list.  That's the reason

10     why I am asking it.  Okay.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I was told that it was only marked

13     for identification.  I don't know the reason at the moment.  Are you

14     tendering it now?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It had a P number, P1539C, so I didn't think we

16     got P number -- but I offer it.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There are quite a lot of documents marked for

18     identification with a P or a D number.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We best offer that, I'm sorry.  I should know by

20     now.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  After some years.  It will be received now under

22     this document number.  Please continue.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So could we now go to P1563, and I believe it

24     should be confidential as well.  And it's C.

25        Q.   And, general, the one I'd like you to look at in the B/C/S is the

Page 18758

 1     one that's at 1200 hours on 12 July.  It's that first one between X and

 2     Y.  And it just is a lot of information about 25 buses, various places,

 3     three from some place they are not sure, five from some place they are

 4     not sure, nine buses from Pale and Sokolac, one tractor trailer from

 5     Bratunac, three tractor trailers from -- is that Batkovici or Bratkovici?

 6     I see it's Bratkovici, okay.  And Radakovic is asking permission to use

 7     14 trucks.  He will keep them in reserve.  They talk about the 35th base

 8     in Bijeljina.  Some more that I won't mention.  And a request for fuel

 9     has been sent to Krstic.

10             Now, if this is General Krstic, would this, in your view, be

11     related to the mobilisation or the -- if not mobilisation, the gathering

12     together of buses from all over to deal with the situation in Srebrenica?

13        A.   Comme ci, comme ca.  That's how I would put it.  Yes, this is a

14     process that was initiated in relation to mobilisation.  So the buses had

15     set off and it was necessary to obtain fuel for them and so on and so

16     forth.

17        Q.   All right.  And are you familiar with an auto battalion in

18     Zvornik?

19        A.   Yes, I think that this battalion was a part of the Drina Corps as

20     per establishment, that auto battalion.

21        Q.   And did you know a Radakovic in that unit or had you heard of

22     him?

23        A.   I've probably heard of him, but I didn't know him, Mr. McCloskey.

24     It is a battalion, after all.

25        Q.   Well, had you heard of him or not?  You said "probably," or

Page 18759

 1     that's ...

 2        A.   I said "probably" because he was in our personnel files, if he

 3     was an officer.  Since he was a battalion commander he was probably an

 4     officer.  I don't know whether he was a reserve officer or an active-duty

 5     officer.  If he was a professional officer, then he was in the personnel

 6     files.

 7        Q.   All right.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to another intercept.

 9        Q.   But prior to that, I just want to take us back to, briefly,

10     P2656.  The intercept that you spent some time on with General Tolimir.

11     And I just want us to look at it.  It is from 16th July, as we know from

12     the record, at 2143 hours, between Krsmanovic and Toso.  And it says in a

13     discussion with Toso about the problem with transportation, Krsmanovic

14     mentioned 10 buses and 14 trucks in relation to the means that are not

15     yet requisitioned.  And in quotes: "That was the situation today."

16             So we can see here these two people are having a discussion about

17     problems with buses and trucks on the 16th.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So now let's go to 65 ter 2748.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Skrbic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I can

21     remember, in the course of my testimony I said that this was not --

22     please, could we go back to that.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey is conducting his

24     cross-examination.

25             Mr. McCloskey.

Page 18760

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   Yes, general, did you want to explain something about one of your

 3     answers to General Tolimir?  Because I haven't really asked you anything

 4     yet on that.

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   All right.  Go ahead.

 7        A.   I said -- I apologise, Mr. McCloskey.  There is just something I

 8     wanted to add that's all.  You said that this was a conversation, but I

 9     said - I don't know if I am right - that it wasn't a conversation.  It

10     says Krsmanovic, and then it quotes what Krsmanovic said.  That is the

11     only distinction I wanted to make, Your Honours.  I do apologise.

12        Q.   Yes.  The English translation we have is:  "In a discussion with

13     Toso ..."  So I don't know how you're getting that, but conversation or

14     discussion, these in English are similar words.  In any event, let's

15     now -- and we see this intercept, which is a little over two hours

16     earlier at 1859 hours between a Krsmanovic and Goran.  It's between

17     Krsmanovic and someone named Goran.  And Krsmanovic asked Goran to take

18     two buses back to him, which he did prior to this.  And Krsmanovic

19     continues.  And now it says:

20             "I also sent Golic and his ten," and that's just -- we don't know

21     a ten what, "back yesterday ... I was granted these ten upon Kerkez's

22     decision ... is it still ... does Kerkez know if this is still on?"

23             Goran says:

24             "What do you mean, you still need it?  Why?"

25             Kerkez says:

Page 18761

 1             "I need them to transport people.  Today, my superior officer

 2     demanded that he should go immediately to the region to transport ...

 3     because the action is not completed."

 4             Goran says:

 5             "Do you have the remaining 20 --"

 6        A.   I can't follow you, Mr. McCloskey.

 7        Q.   Well, it's break time so I think if we can -- I can give a hard

 8     copy to read, though, if you want to do that on your break, otherwise we

 9     will start at the end of the break.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's fine.  We all haven't seen this yet.  If I

11     am correct, this document is under seal and we will see how to proceed.

12             We must have our first break now, and we will resume at 11.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, please take your earphones.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   Now, we were at that intercept, 65 ter 2748.  And I just want to

22     see if we can identify possible parties in this.  And to remind us, this

23     is an intercept that is about two and three-quarter hours before the

24     intercept about the discussion between Krsmanovic and Toso and the

25     problem with ten buses.

Page 18762

 1             So we see that -- and I won't read it all, but just starting from

 2     the beginning Krsmanovic is asking someone by the name of Goran to take

 3     two buses back to him.

 4             And then Krsmanovic says:

 5             "I also sent Golic and his ten back yesterday ... I was granted

 6     these ten upon Kerkez's decision ..."

 7             And it goes on.  Do you know a -- and we know that Golic is a

 8     common name, but do you know a Major -- did you know a Major Golic in the

 9     intel section of the Drina Corps, Pavle Golic?

10        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  But I didn't know that he was in the

11     intelligence.  I knew a Golic who was a communication chief at the corps

12     command for a certain period of time.  I cannot remember.  He may have

13     been transferred to the intelligence section, that same Golic.

14        Q.   Okay.  And then Krsmanovic says:

15             "I need them to transport people.  Today my superior officer

16     demanded that he should go immediately to the region to transport ...

17     because the action is not finished."

18             So if Krsmanovic is an officer in the Drina Corps, who was the

19     commander of the Drina Corps at that time?

20        A.   Mr. McCloskey, can you please remind me of the date of this

21     intercept?

22        Q.   Yeah, it's 16 July.

23        A.   General Radislav Krstic was already the corps commander at that

24     time.

25        Q.   And on the 16th of July, did you know that General Krstic was

Page 18763

 1     engaged in the -- commanding the operation into the Zepa enclave?

 2        A.   No, I didn't, Mr. McCloskey.

 3        Q.   And then it goes on.  Goran says:

 4             "Do you have the remaining 20 or something that is not from the

 5     auto battalion from your region?"

 6             We've already talked about the Drina Corps's auto battalion in

 7     Zvornik.  Krsmanovic says:

 8             "Do you hear what I am asking you, man?"

 9             And then he says:

10             "Is Kerkez around somewhere?"

11             And Goran says he's having dinner.  And then Krsmanovic says:

12             "Tell him I was looking for him and that I will call him in a

13     while.  I am trying to tell you something and you --"

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   "... and you ... fuck it, you are telling your story."

17             Goran says:

18             "And you are telling yours."

19             Now, if Krsmanovic is asking a guy named Goran about Kerkez and

20     Goran knows that Kerkez is at dinner, were you aware of any subordinate

21     of Kerkez named Goran?  Would have been at the Main Staff because, as

22     you've told us, Kerkez is the Main Staff guy for transport.  I think

23     you've told us Djukic is in Han Pijesak with you, so I would think

24     Djukic's guys are in the same Han Pijesak admin building with you, not up

25     at Crna Rijeka, but you know better than I.

Page 18764

 1        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  It's right.  They were in Han Pijesak, not

 2     in Crna Rijeka.  Now, back to your question.  I cannot agree with you

 3     with any degree of certainty that K stands for Krsmanovic, that G stands

 4     for Golic and so on.  I can see the letter K and then the letter G, then

 5     again the letter K and so on and so forth.  If someone has identified

 6     these individuals for you, I have no problem with that.  But I, myself,

 7     cannot say that I know who they are.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Skrbic, the question was:

 9             "... were you aware of any subordinate of Kerkez named Goran?"

10             Please answer that question.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't, Your Honours.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   And, general, we have heard from several intercept operators that

14     did these, and just so you know, when I ask you the question I -- the --

15     they have told us that the -- Krsmanovic would be K and G would be Goran

16     because that's how they did it.  They would put it up on the top and then

17     it would go on like that.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I would like to offer this into

19     evidence.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2748 shall be

22     assigned Exhibit P2866.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Under seal.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Under seal.  Thank you.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now could we go to D341.

Page 18765

 1        Q.   This is that list that General Tolimir gave you.  It was your

 2     Main Staff list that had all the people in it.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This would be page 19 of that list.  It's the one

 4     the general wanted to have complete -- we are now translating the

 5     complete one.

 6        Q.   And it should be the traffic and transportation service under 103

 7     and then 4300.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And so if we could blow that one up.  It's

 9     103 4300.  It says -- all right.

10        Q.   We can see up there Zeljko Kerkez.  What's his job?

11        A.   Mr. McCloskey, up there you can see the title: "Transportation

12     and Traffic Service," and underneath it says, "Chief."  First

13     Ostoja Stijepic, son of Novak, was before Mr. Zeljko Kerkez.

14        Q.   Okay, so who was the chief in July of 1995?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   So Kerkez was the chief in July 1995?

17        A.   That's correct, Mr. McCloskey.

18        Q.   Now, let's go down to the referents.  These men would have been

19     stationed at the Han Pijesak administrative building where you were,

20     where you would have spent a lot of your time.  And we see one of those

21     referents is named Goran.  Did you know a Goran that worked -- I will ask

22     the same question, does this help refresh your recollection of a man that

23     worked in the same building as you did and worked for Kerkez named

24     Goran Starcevic?

25        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Now I remember who Goran was.  Now that you

Page 18766

 1     told me that his last name was Starcevic.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And I --

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The English is in e-court but I think that should

 4     be clear enough for everyone and it's already in evidence.

 5        Q.   All right.  General, just another topic I want to switch to, and

 6     hopefully briefly.  General Tolimir asked you on page 18636 about the

 7     resubordination by the police to the army.  And you answered, and I

 8     quote:

 9             "According to what I know, there was no resubordination

10     whatsoever."

11             And then you say that the police are resubordinated to the army

12     only during a state of war and no specific document has been issued to

13     that effect because they become an integral part of the armed forces.

14     Because a state of war wasn't proclaimed in the territory of

15     Republika Srpska until the 20th of October, 1995.

16             Though I think somewhere else in your testimony you said that

17     they did declare a state of war about -- around Srebrenica in July.  So I

18     won't hold you to that October.  Do you remember when you talked about a

19     state of war in Srebrenica in July?

20        A.   Precisely so, Mr. McCloskey.  It was around July.  And I think

21     you do have documents on the proclamation of a state of war, as well as

22     the order signed by the president of the republic.  I believe I've seen

23     these documents somewhere.

24        Q.   Yes, and I'll -- if I have time I may show that to you.  And you

25     recall you and I discussed this topic in your interview, and I believe I

Page 18767

 1     showed you some documents on it, this resubordination issue, but perhaps

 2     we can just get right to the point.  I -- let's not use this term

 3     "resubordination."  Let me just simplify it.  Were you aware that special

 4     police forces, in this case commanded by the deputy commander of the

 5     special police force unit that was under the Ministry of the Interior,

 6     were actually sent to Srebrenica and put under the command of

 7     General Mladic on 11 July?

 8        A.   Mr. McCloskey, I did not dispute the documents showed me by you

 9     in 2005, but up to that time I hadn't known that they were sent there.

10     Now I can only confirm the information contained in these documents that

11     they were there.

12        Q.   But you told General Krstic for whatever reason he elicited from

13     you, and I quote -- sorry, from General Tolimir:

14             "According to what I know, there was no resubordination

15     whatsoever."

16             And as you know resubordination puts a unit in the command of

17     another.

18        A.   That's correct, Mr. McCloskey.  I have no reason to go back on

19     what I said, and I would like to repeat that I began my answer with the

20     words "According to what I know ..."

21        Q.   All right.  Let's go to P2516.  We will just go through some of

22     these documents that I showed you before because we'll see if that fits

23     to what you know.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the number of the

25     document.

Page 18768

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  P2516.

 2        Q.   And we can see that this is dated 10 July.  It's in the name of

 3     the staff commander who is from the Ministry of the Interior,

 4     Tomislav Kovac.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could the B/C/S version be enlarged further,

 6     please.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   And we see it's directed to a number of police forces.  And it

 9     makes reference to:  "Pursuant to the order of the Supreme Commander of

10     the Republika Srpska armed forces," and that's Radovan Karadzic, correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   And:

13             "In order to crush the enemy offensive being carried out from the

14     safe area of Srebrenica I hereby order ..."

15             And I don't want to go through the details of it, but we can see,

16     as I said, that it designated, in number 3, Ljubisa Borovcanin to be the

17     commander of these units.

18             And then if we go down to point 5, it says:

19             "On arrival at his destination, the unit commander is obliged to

20     make contact with the corps Chief of Staff, General Krstic."

21             So if this means Borovcanin is to make contact with

22     General Krstic, what does that mean, if anything, to you regarding who is

23     in command of who or working with who?

24        A.   Mr. McCloskey, I understand this to mean that they were

25     co-operating with each other, although I cannot definitely say who

Page 18769

 1     commanded whom.  They were both commanders.  They had to talk to each

 2     other.  They had to agree on further actions pursuant to the orders

 3     received from the Commander-in-Chief.

 4        Q.   Do you think deputy commander, which is roughly equivalent to

 5     colonel, Borovcanin -- that General Mladic had to agree with this -- with

 6     Borovcanin, this colonel, before Borovcanin could be acted upon?

 7        A.   I don't understand why you have mentioned General Mladic.  We are

 8     talking about General Krstic and Mr. Borovcanin.  I don't know whether he

 9     had any rank or not.

10        Q.   Well, the same thing holds for General Krstic.  Do you think

11     General Krstic couldn't order Borovcanin after he reported to him that he

12     would have to agree and sort of work together in some sort co-operative

13     way in a military combat situation?  Please, general, give us your best

14     military opinion on this.

15        A.   Mr. McCloskey, at the time to which this document refers, which

16     was not sent to the Drina Corps command, you see on the top who the

17     recipient was, they were still within the relationship that involved

18     co-operation.  What happened afterwards, I don't know.  I do not rule out

19     the possibility that General Krstic, as the Drina Corps commander, and

20     given that this unit was sent to him, he might have become their

21     commander as well.  I don't exclude that as a possibility.

22        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's go to P1335.  This is Mr. Borovcanin's

23     after-action report of the events from the -- about the 10th of July

24     through about the 20th of July, and it should be looking at the first

25     page of the English there.  Let's get you up --

Page 18770

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go to the next page in the Serbian.

 2        Q.   And we can see in the English that he does mention the order that

 3     we just looked at from on 10 July where he was sent to participate in the

 4     Srebrenica operation.  And then in the English he talks about his

 5     travelling from the 10th and the 11th in July.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We need to go to the next page in the English.

 7        Q.   And in the B/C/S you can find the part.  The paragraph says:

 8             "When we arrived in Bratunac at 1200 hours on 11 July, we

 9     acquainted ourselves with the situation on the front, where intense

10     fighting was taking place at the very entrance to Srebrenica town from

11     the direction of Pribicevac and Zeleni Jadar.

12             "From the observer post in Pribicevac, I contacted

13     General Mladic, who personally commanded over the operation.  On receipt

14     of combat papers, he ordered me to that same day with all available

15     manpower and equipment from the direction of Zuti Most to Potocari ..."

16     and onward.

17             Does that clear up this issue for you?

18        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Only obviously this date was added by

19     someone.  I don't know who.  Added by hand, 11th of July, by 1200 hours.

20        Q.   So you now agree with me that Borovcanin and his MUP forces are

21     now under the command of General Mladic?

22        A.   Yes, there was no way for them not to be.

23        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Let's go to another part of this, where on

24     page 18618 you began speaking to General Tolimir about can -- and he

25     said to you:

Page 18771

 1             "Can you remember any general that was retired in mid-July 1995?"

 2             And you said:

 3             "Yes, that was Milenko Zivanovic."

 4             And you said you ... I'm sorry, let me just make sure we get this

 5     clear.  On the bottom of that page, the general says:

 6             "Thank you.  Do you remember when he retired and who was

 7     responsible for the paperwork for his retirement?"

 8             And you said:

 9             "The decree that I took to the president of the republic was

10     signed by the president of the republic, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, on the

11     14th of July, 1995.  The decree defined specifically the date of the

12     retirement, and I believe that was on the same day; in other words, as of

13     14 July 1995 he was retired."

14             Did anyone from the Defence show you those documents at this --

15     before this hearing?  I think you've probably seen them before.  I don't

16     recall.

17        A.   Mr. McCloskey, no one from the Defence showed me that document,

18     that I created it, then it was signed.  So if I saw it, then I would

19     confirm those dates, but I think the dates are correct.  But I don't

20     remember whether it says that he retired on the 14th, but it is usual --

21     it's part of military practice for the date when it's signed meaning

22     that -- the date when the document was signed would show when the actual

23     person retired.  If we could see the document, it would be easier to say.

24     I think that decree exists, Mr. McCloskey.

25        Q.   Yes, and we -- I want to get to it.  But first I want to just

Page 18772

 1     show you something.  I mean, you said it was the 14th July that you saw

 2     President Karadzic.  What do you base that on?  Is it just your memory or

 3     where you had a chance to see a diary or anything?

 4        A.   Mr. McCloskey, in Belgrade I, in fact, told you that I made

 5     certain notes on my computer and these notes were made from memory.  And

 6     it is on that basis that I drew the conclusion that I must have been

 7     there on the 14th or around that date because of that decree that

 8     concerned the retirement of General Zivanovic and the appointment of

 9     certain other generals.

10        Q.   What other generals?

11        A.   The appointment of General Krstic as the commander of the

12     Drina Corps, and the appointment of Colonel Svetozar Andric as the

13     Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps.  So only one general was concerned.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we have P2198.  It should be e-court page 79,

16     B/C/S e-court page 91.

17        Q.   General, this should be, if I got my numbers right, a diary that

18     the secretaries of President Karadzic put together and told us about.

19     And we should be seeing the entry for 14 July.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we go to e-court page 91.  Thank you very

21     much.

22        Q.   And we see it's an appointment diary.  Familiar name of

23     Miroslav Deronjic.  It's before you.  And then we see General Skrbic,

24     1215 hours to 1235 hours.  So you got 20 minutes.  Does that seem about

25     right?  Or does it help you at all?

Page 18773

 1        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 2        Q.   And the secretary told us that if they put a plus by the person's

 3     name, that meant that it actually occurred, that meeting.  All right.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 811.

 5        Q.   And, general, we see that this is a decree from the president of

 6     the Republika Srpska.  It's signed in the name of Radovan Karadzic.  And

 7     it talks about placed at the disposal of the Main Staff

 8     Milenko Zivanovic.  Is this the decree that you were talking about?

 9        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

10        Q.   It doesn't say "retired," but can you just tell us what that

11     means, "placed at the disposal," in this context?

12        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  If the Main Staff has the need, they then

13     retain him and make a proposal to the president for a certain

14     appointment.  This is again done by a decree.  If there is no such need,

15     then his employment is terminated.  The Main Staff didn't have the need

16     for Milenko Zivanovic, General Milenko Zivanovic, and as a result he

17     ceased to be fully employed.  He was retired.

18        Q.   Okay.  And we can see a stamp over President Karadzic's

19     signature.  And we also have a stamp on the original with the name

20     Radoslav Banduka.  Is that the same Banduka that you spoke of the other

21     day when writing in that little box in a chart of the Main Staff?  Can

22     you remind us who that is?

23        A.   Mr. McCloskey, that's correct.  That's the individual from the

24     Ministry of Defence who was, as far as I can remember, acting as an

25     assistant to Mr. Kovacevic.  I don't know his exact position, but he was

Page 18774

 1     in the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   So this isn't Rajko Banduka, Mladic's guy?

 3        A.   No, sir.

 4        Q.   And did you type this up?  You said you typed up the paperwork at

 5     the Main Staff and brought it over, when you were telling that to

 6     General Tolimir.

 7        A.   Well, I didn't do that myself, Mr. McCloskey.  It was done in our

 8     department.  A draft was made on the computer.  These letters are letters

 9     I can't really recognise, but within the Ministry of Defence, this must

10     have been typed out again and then taken to the president.  I don't

11     remember which document I took to the president, whether it was this one

12     or the other one that we compiled.  I don't know which document I took to

13     the president for him to sign.

14        Q.   Because we see here this is 15 July, and from your memory and

15     from the appointments book, you were there on the 14th of July.  Can you

16     account for why it's a 15 July date that he's signing off on this?  Would

17     you have typed it up the day before -- sorry, the day after for him to

18     sign?

19        A.   Mr. McCloskey, you've seen in the previous documents that I was

20     at the president's on the 14th.  That is quite certain.  Now, I cannot

21     remember this exactly, but given these documents perhaps it wasn't signed

22     at the very same time.  But I took that decree to the ministry for them

23     to have a look at and then they signed it on the 15th.  That might be a

24     reasonable explanation for me.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I think we can offer this into

Page 18775

 1     evidence.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours 65 ter document 811 shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit P2867.  Thank you.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And can we go to 65 ter 18?

 6        Q.   And, general, you'll see as this one comes up it's another

 7     decree.  It's the same type, same Radovan Karadzic stamp signature.  This

 8     one has to do with the -- appointing General Krstic as commander, which

 9     you've just told us about.  And this -- this is -- has got a spot where

10     you handwrite -- somebody handwrites in the date and this is 14 July.

11     What can you tell us about this?

12        A.   Mr. McCloskey, this is a document from the sector I worked in,

13     and this is what documents looked like when I worked on the computer.

14     This was in the sector of the Main Staff of the department for

15     mobilisation, organisation, et cetera.  And this document was signed by

16     Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  So, I wasn't quite sure which document he had

17     signed and hadn't signed.

18        Q.   So, in direct examination you remembered going to see Karadzic

19     about the retirement of Zivanovic and now you've been able to recall that

20     not only it had to do with the retirement of Zivanovic but also the

21     promotion to General Krstic; is that right?

22        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  But I haven't remembered it now.  I knew it

23     then.  You didn't ask me about that.

24        Q.   No, General Tolimir didn't ask you about Krstic and you were able

25     to remember it.  So that's -- I appreciate that.

Page 18776

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would like to offer that into evidence as well.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 18 shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit P2868.  Thank you.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   So we've now established that you would have spoken to him

 7     briefly at some point in that 20 minutes about the retirement of

 8     Zivanovic and the promotion to General Krstic.  And two days prior to

 9     that, you had sent his ministry a request for buses that his ministry

10     acted upon, as we saw.  And just to put you in bit of context, on the

11     14th of July -- excuse me, on the evening of the 13th of July, all the

12     women and children and old men had been shipped out by many buses and

13     trucks out of Potocari and are now in Muslim-held territory.  But on the

14     night of the 13th, there are thousands and thousands of Muslim

15     able-bodied men in Bratunac and in the area and schools.  And this Court

16     has heard evidence that President Karadzic that evening had a

17     conversation with Miroslav Deronjic, who met with him right before you

18     did on the 14th, about moving parcels out of the Bratunac area.

19             So my question is:  When you see the president on the 14th at

20     about noon at which time thousands of men are being transported from

21     Bratunac to Zvornik in a column led by Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, did

22     you discuss or did Radovan Karadzic mention any of those details, the

23     buses needed for the transport of all those men, or anything to do with

24     that topic?  That now, by the 14th of July, is being commanded by

25     General Krstic from the Drina Corps.

Page 18777

 1        A.   As far as I can remember, Mr. McCloskey, that wasn't discussed.

 2        Q.   When you say, "as far as I can remember" -- oh, excuse me.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Perhaps Mr. McCloskey

 7     should indicate the time when Deronjic and Karadzic met, because it was

 8     stated on the document that we had a look at.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a proposal for Mr. McCloskey.  Please

10     proceed.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I had -- I think I had said that right

12     before the general's meeting with President Karadzic that

13     Miroslav Deronjic had met with him.  And if we go back to that exhibit,

14     we see that General Skrbic was 1215 to 1235, and Deronjic's was actually

15     1240 to 1310 hours.  It was originally scheduled at 1100 hours.  So it

16     was actually after his meeting.  So thank you for correcting me on that.

17     Precision is appreciated.

18        Q.   All right.  So you had your questions said -- sorry, in your

19     answer to me, "As far as I can remember, that wasn't discussed."  That's

20     the same thing you said to me when I asked you if Srebrenica had been

21     mentioned at Zivanovic's going-away party.

22             So, general, please, can you get back into your memory and give

23     us your best memory.  Anything to do with the Srebrenica events.  It was

24     a historical event, after all.

25        A.   Mr. McCloskey, I can't remember the things you would like me to

Page 18778

 1     remember.

 2        Q.   All right.  One other personnel document on a related topic.  Do

 3     you know when General Mladic actually made General Krstic the commander

 4     of the Drina Corps?

 5        A.   Mr. McCloskey, could you please put the question to me again?

 6     Because General Mladic didn't have the responsibility for appointing

 7     officers who had the rank of a general.

 8        Q.   When was General Krstic actually made commander of the

 9     Drina Corps by whoever?

10        A.   On the 14th of July, 1995, Mr. McCloskey.

11        Q.   All right.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to --

13        Q.   And I take it -- what do you base that on?

14        A.   I base it on the president's decree that you showed to me a

15     minute ago.

16        Q.   But as the personnel man, you would know the -- some of the

17     backdrop and background into how it was that a person gets retired right

18     between major actions, Srebrenica and then Zepa?  And how it would occur

19     at such a volatile and complex time that one becomes a commander and one

20     is retired.  So do you recall any other circumstances, aside from this

21     one document?  Was this a planned event?  I mean, most generals'

22     promotions are known pretty far in advance as well as retirements.  Or

23     was he -- was Zivanovic retired suddenly without your knowledge?  Can you

24     give us a little background.  I don't want to go in -- I know personnel

25     issues can get pretty complex.  I don't want to know that.  But

Page 18779

 1     basically, what else besides this document are you basing your testimony

 2     on?

 3        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Just a few facts I would like to inform you

 4     of.  General Zivanovic was wounded.  I think that was back in 1993.  Or I

 5     don't know the exact year.  I remember that at a collegium, at a meeting,

 6     on one occasion there was a discussion about who should be the chief of

 7     the staff of the Drina Corps, whether it should be Colonel Krstic.  He

 8     was a colonel at the time, that was in mid-1994.  It was also discussed

 9     whether it should be Colonel Skocajic Milutin.  We then suggested to the

10     commander that Colonel Radislav Krstic should occupy that position.

11             As far as the proposal for appointing General Krstic as commander

12     and also to retire General Zivanovic, this wasn't discussed at the

13     collegium as is customary.  General Mladic acted within his purview, and

14     he suggested to the president of the republic, to Mr. Karadzic, that

15     Zivanovic should be retired and that the commander of the Drina Corps

16     should be General Krstic.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to P2357.

18        Q.   Let's see if this may help refresh your recollection as to the

19     dates and the specifics of this transfer.  And you'll have a chance to

20     study that, but can you first tell us:  Have you ever heard of anyone

21     named -- chief of personnel and legal affairs of the Drina Corps,

22     Lieutenant-Colonel Radenko Jovicic?

23        A.   Of course I have, Mr. McCloskey.

24        Q.   Can you study this personnel document from Jovicic?  We see it's

25     dated 13 July and it was received by a unit at 2325 hours on the

Page 18780

 1     13th of July according to that stamp at the bottom.  And it's pretty

 2     self-explanatory, transfer of duties of the corps commander.  And it

 3     says:

 4             "Pursuant to the decree of the president of Republika Srpska, and

 5     in the presence of the VRS Main Staff commander,

 6     Colonel General Ratko Mladic, the transfer of duties of the Drina Corps

 7     commander duties was carried out on 13 July 1995."

 8             And it talks about Mladic -- excuse me, Krstic getting the job

 9     and Andric getting the Chief of Staff job.  And of course it says:

10             "Acquaint all members of your unit in the appropriate manner with

11     this document."

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the Prosecutor kindly repeat his last

13     question, please, for the interpreters.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   It says -- I am getting at the point where I don't remember what

16     I just said.  But I was just reiterating what the document was saying,

17     "Acquaint all members of your unit in the appropriate manner regarding

18     this document."

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the Chamber and the interpreters were

20     waiting for your question.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   And do you recall -- what's going on here?  This is the

23     13th of July.  You just said the 14th.  Does this help refresh your

24     recollection of what actually happened?

25        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  I think that this is a rational explanation.

Page 18781

 1     Let me draw your attention to the beginning of the sentence, "On the

 2     basis of a decree by the president of Republika Srpska," but where is the

 3     number of the decree?  Why didn't this personnel officer write down the

 4     number?  So they were expecting a decree on appointment, but the transfer

 5     of duties had already been carried out and I don't dispute that.

 6     Although I don't know when this was done, but in the document you can see

 7     that it was on the 13th.

 8        Q.   Well, President Karadzic and General Mladic could have agreed to

 9     the promotion on the 13th, and President Karadzic said, "I do decree and

10     I will get the paperwork to you," and General Mladic could have gone on

11     and done it right there on the 13th.  Is that one way it could have

12     happened?

13        A.   Quite right, Mr. McCloskey.  That was a possible scenario.  It

14     wouldn't have been possible to do things differently.

15        Q.   Have you heard the account that General Mladic on his way back

16     from the Bratunac area on the early evening of 13 July with some of his

17     people stopped at the Vlasenica command of the Drina Corps, lined up the

18     assembled officers who were there - Krstic, Zivanovic - and said

19     something to the effect of, "General Krstic, you are now in command.

20     General Zivanovic, you are retired."

21             Have you heard that accounting?

22        A.   I haven't heard that, but it's possible.

23        Q.   All right.  General, let's go to 65 ter 677.  This should be the

24     "Decision on the Proclamation of a State of War in Srebrenica, Skelani

25     Municipality."  It has a date of 14 July 1995 on it.  Is this what you

Page 18782

 1     were referring to when you were talking about the state of war, the

 2     declaration there -- or the proclamation in the Srebrenica municipality

 3     earlier?

 4        A.   Yes, exactly, Mr. McCloskey.

 5        Q.   Did your office or the Main Staff have anything to do with the

 6     drafting of this or would this have been drafted at the president's

 7     office?

 8        A.   No, our service didn't have anything to do with this document.

 9        Q.   Well, we can see that obviously this is 14 July, it's the

10     Srebrenica/Skelani area.  We all know what events had taken place and are

11     taking place in that area, which roughly starts around Cerska all the way

12     down past Skelani.  What -- what input did the -- anybody from the VRS

13     have in -- in this -- in this proclamation?  Any discussions with the

14     army beforehand by the president?  Did the president do this on his own,

15     as far as you know?  What do you know about this, since it certainly

16     appears - as we look at it - it has a lot to do with the army's ability

17     to obtain men and materiel without mobilisation?

18        A.   Mr. McCloskey, I know that we from the military constantly

19     recommended to the president to proclaim the state of war from 1992

20     onwards until the end of the war.  The president ignored our requests.

21     Therefore, we did not know that a state of war would be declared in the

22     Srebrenica area, and when I say "we," I mean the military.

23        Q.   So this is an indication of -- you finally succeeded in

24     convincing the president to do this.  Who -- who succeeded?  Was it

25     Mladic, was it Milovanovic, was it General Tolimir?  Who has the success

Page 18783

 1     on his belt, if anyone?

 2        A.   No.  Nobody was consulted with regard to this decision.

 3        Q.   How do you know that?

 4        A.   Because the president did this on his own.  We were all surprised

 5     when a state of war was declared only in the area of Srebrenica.

 6        Q.   So were you with the other assistant commanders on the

 7     14th of July where they were all surprised?  Is that how you know that

 8     none of them had any role in any of this?  You actually did go to one of

 9     these meetings?

10        A.   Well, I don't know, Mr. McCloskey, whether we learned about this

11     decision immediately on the 14th of July.  As far as my sector is

12     concerned, we discussed this much later after we had heard of it.  The

13     war was in full sway, and then a state of war was declared only in the

14     area of Srebrenica.  Wouldn't you, yourself, find it odd?

15        Q.   General, I asked you because not but two days before you had to

16     go through this process of mobilising a request through Karadzic's

17     ministry.  On the 14th of July this is happening, their buses are coming,

18     people are being transported.  This has direct consequences - does it

19     not? - on the your work, the work of Kerkez down the hall in the

20     Main Staff, the other assistant commanders on other various levels.  This

21     is something you would have found out immediately, if not before;

22     correct?

23             Now that you have had a chance to think about, general, don't you

24     think --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, he is always waiting for the

Page 18784

 1     finalising of the interpretation.  Now your answer.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I wasn't sure if the question was clear.  I'm

 3     sorry.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mobilisation is a process that

 5     lasts throughout a war.  In response to Mr. Tolimir's question, I

 6     explained what kind of mobilisation is effected during a wartime and what

 7     kind of mobilisation we have in other situations.  Therefore, I don't

 8     deny that we in the sector were aware of the pending mobilisation, that

 9     it was potentially going to happen.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   And do you mean you were aware of the pending proclamation of

12     state of war before it happened?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but just to

15     help us get a little bit of an understanding of it, we -- we see it's for

16     a particular area, Srebrenica, Skelani.  Paragraph 3 talks about:

17             "The armed forces in the zone of Drina Corps shall take all

18     necessary measures to accomplish the set goals by the organised and

19     effective use of available resources."

20             And then it goes on and says:

21             "In compliance with its constitutional and legal powers, the

22     government, ministries, and all other state organs in the republic are

23     obliged to fully implement the decision on general mobilisation and

24     provide the armed forces with the necessary human and material conditions

25     for the successful conduct of the war."

Page 18785

 1             So this proclamation basically makes the civilian structures, as

 2     mentioned here, they have to provide you with what you need to wage war.

 3     Is that the bottom line?  In this area.

 4        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 5        Q.   Now, if we go back to where we are on the 14th of July, the women

 6     and children are no longer in Srebrenica.  There is no old men, either.

 7     And by the morning of the 14th of July, all the prisoners, the thousands

 8     of prisoners have been shipped up to Zvornik which is not in the

 9     Srebrenica/Skelani area, but there are still hundreds of Muslim men in

10     the woods probably north of Potocari, Susnjari, Jaglici, and around

11     Cerska.

12             So what's the big mobilisation of men and materials for

13     Srebrenica for, as far as you know?  Zepa has just started, the attack on

14     Zepa has just started the morning of the 14th.  Tolimir is down there.

15     He needs men and material as well.  So what's this for?

16        A.   There are no justified requirements.  All the --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Witness please rephrase the answer.  The

18     interpreters couldn't understand him.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   I will try to simplify it.  With most of action in Eastern Bosnia

21     not being in Srebrenica and Skelani anymore, it's in Zvornik and in Zepa,

22     with hundreds of men running around the woods in the north part of the

23     enclave, what's the need to mobilise men and materiel in the Srebrenica

24     area?  You're the mobilisation guy.  You're at your desk.  You know about

25     this.  Just give us your best memory.  What is needed?  Why does the

Page 18786

 1     president finally, after all this time, give you what you're looking for

 2     in this area after almost everybody is gone?

 3        A.   Mr. McCloskey, you used a very good term that is appropriate, and

 4     I don't see any point in proclaiming a state of war there.

 5        Q.   Do you know why it was done?

 6        A.   No, I don't.

 7        Q.   Would this state of war make it much easier for the army to use

 8     the services of the civil protection services in Bratunac?

 9        A.   Mr. McCloskey, civilian protection is a separate service.  It is

10     not under the jurisdiction of the army and that's the case all around the

11     world.  Members of the civilian protection are not armed.  They have

12     badges in the form of a triangle with the point upwards, and I think it's

13     the colour yellow.  And I think that everybody should respect this

14     service because they are providing for the needs of the vulnerable

15     population.

16             Now, if your question was whether it was easier for the army to

17     carry out its duties under such circumstances, then the answer is yes.

18        Q.   Civil protection can also do asanacija, cleaning up the

19     battle-field of human and other animal remains and bury them to prevent

20     diseases; right?

21        A.   Yes, correct.

22        Q.   And since, like you say, they are a civilian organisation not

23     attached to the army, this decree requires them to give the army what

24     they want, if the army wants them to do asanacija or something else;

25     correct?

Page 18787

 1        A.   Correct, Mr. McCloskey.

 2        Q.   So if Colonel Beara on the night of the 13th met with the head of

 3     civil protection or the other civil authorities and asked them for help

 4     to bury bodies, they would not be obliged by this decree because it

 5     doesn't come into play until the next day, right?

 6        A.   Of course it wouldn't be binding.  But they have their ongoing

 7     tasks, the civilian protection.  Their ongoing tasks during a war is to

 8     carry out these jobs that you mentioned and enumerated very nicely in

 9     your previous question.

10        Q.   Okay.  The Court has heard evidence in this case that on the

11     14th of July, as a result of mass executions at the Kravica warehouse,

12     their civil protection assisted - with the urging of Colonel Beara and

13     others - in burying, digging holes and burying the dead on 14 July.  So

14     if civil protection was working with the army on the 14th of July, and

15     the 15th of July, this decree would have been in place at that time,

16     correct?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Can

19     Mr. McCloskey give the proper reference to the witness?  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The question was my question.  I think it's been

22     repeated in this trial unknown how many times, the digging of the graves

23     at Glogova on the 14th of July.  Colonel Beara's involvement with the

24     civil protection.  The graves were continued to be dug on the 15th July.

25     All I am asking him is whether or not the army was able to take advantage

Page 18788

 1     of this proclamation that required the help of civil protection in that

 2     effort.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Skrbic, please answer the question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  They could have

 5     used it.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   General, let me try to get to it.  We'll go to a topic that's a

 8     little bit more related to structure, a little away from digging for a

 9     moment.  The -- you spoke a bit about the 410th and the

10     10th Sabotage Detachment.  And you, I think, correctly pointed out that

11     they were units directly connected to General Mladic, the commander.  And

12     right near the end of the -- your answers to those, you did say the

13     410th was not part of the intel and security.  They were a separate unit.

14     But you did go on to say, on 18566, when you were asked:

15             "Did the commander exercise command and control over this body,"

16     meaning the 410th.

17             And your answer is:

18             "He did exercise command, that's for sure.  But perhaps he

19     transferred certain authorities to the sector for intelligence and

20     security."

21             This Court has heard quite a bit of evidence on the 410th and

22     especially the 10th Sabotage Detachment being, like you have said, under

23     the command of General Mladic.  But, as you, I think, have told us, and

24     we have heard otherwise, General Mladic is a very busy man and, of

25     course, he can't follow the day-to-day management, "rukovodjenje," if we

Page 18789

 1     might put it that way, of these units.  So when you say Mladic has

 2     transferred certain authorities over to the sector of intelligence and

 3     security, can you tell us is that true, do you stand by that?

 4        A.   Yes, that is correct, Mr. McCloskey.  And I stand by it.

 5        Q.   And would that have been the same thing, that it's true that he

 6     transferred certain authorities over to the intelligence and security

 7     section regarding the 10th Sabotage Detachment as well?

 8        A.   I don't rule out that possibility.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 07601.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, what about the last document,

11     65 ter 677?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I should offer that into evidence if it is not,

13     677.  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

16     Exhibit P2869.  Thank you.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, this 07601 is something we

18     identified in response to the general's answers to General Tolimir about

19     the 10th Sabotage Detachment, and so I would wish to have this on our

20     65 ter list.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is my understanding that Mr. Tolimir never

22     objects to this kind of request.  Leave is granted to add it to the

23     65 ter list.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could -- if that's up on the screen for

25     the general, and we could make it a bit easier because I -- sorry, I see

Page 18790

 1     I am running out of time.  Could we provide that to the witness.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, you have indicated that you will

 3     need six hours.  That time-limit is not reached yet.  Of course, we

 4     should try to conclude the testimony of this witness today, that's for

 5     sure, but as was the same for Mr. Tolimir, there is no time pressure.

 6     Mr. Tolimir should have enough time for his re-examination.

 7             During the break, we could consider to have an extended hearing

 8     today.  The courtroom is available in the afternoon.  That would be one

 9     option.  You have up to now used 3 hours and 48 minutes.  So --

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Take your time or we continue on Monday.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much.  I was hoping to finish, but

13     I am now recognising I'm in some important areas.  So thank you for

14     understanding.

15        Q.   All right, general.  Just take a read of this as you will.  And

16     we'll flip over the next page in a while so that General Tolimir can read

17     it fully, but it's a document that --

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We can go to the second page.

19        Q.   It's basically an order from General Mladic on 4 December 1994,

20     to the organs of the security and intel affairs on all levels from

21     battalion to the Main Staff of the VRS shall commence with a selection of

22     personnel in accordance with the requirements below.  And it's -- as we

23     see in the title, it's regarding the establishing and recruiting the

24     Main Staff 10th Sabotage Detachment.

25             This is clearly a personnel issue.  It's when you were working.

Page 18791

 1     So it's basically ordering - as we all know he has the right and

 2     authority to do - to get these units together to properly recruit and get

 3     the 10th Sabotage Detachment going and get personnel for it.  Is that

 4     basically it in a nutshell?

 5        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 6        Q.   All right.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So I would offer that into evidence.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7601 shall be

10     assigned Exhibit P2870.  Thank you.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now let's go to P2141.

12        Q.   This is a much simpler one-page document from the Main Staff,

13     21 December 1994.  So over two weeks after General Mladic's order.  We'll

14     flip that around for you.  Blow it up a bit.  You will see it's from the

15     intel and security centre from General Tolimir.  And it's entitled:

16     "Warning, re:  The selection of the candidates of the Main Staff

17     10th Sabotage Detachment."  And it refers to the communication from

18     Mladic, and that's the same that we just saw, just so you know.  And we

19     see General Tolimir saying he received an order from the commander with a

20     dead-line.  Selecting candidates to be accepted on contract into the

21     Main Staff 10th Sabotage Detachment.  And he says:

22             "Since you have not taken any action in this matter up till now,

23     nor have you sent this sector any report, I hereby warn you to take this

24     task extremely seriously and to begin realising it through your

25     subordinate organs up to the battalion level."

Page 18792

 1             Is this an example of General Tolimir implementing the order of

 2     his commander in the area of intelligence and security?

 3        A.   Yes, that's an example, only I don't see to whom it is addressed.

 4     You don't see the name of the recipient.

 5        Q.   Now if we go back to the document he is referring to, we can see

 6     who that one was sent to.  But I would -- that's already in evidence.  So

 7     we see here, don't we, that on this particular date General Tolimir has

 8     some management authority and involvement with the 10th Sabotage

 9     Detachment in terms of its formation and getting it together?

10        A.   And what is your question?  I'm sorry.

11        Q.   Do you agree with me on that, this shows that General Tolimir has

12     involvement as the chief of intel and security with the management of the

13     10th Sabotage situation?  In this case, the formation of its personnel.

14        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  But he was not responsible for the

15     formation.  That was part of my sector's duty.  He was only in charge of

16     providing good quality personnel.

17        Q.   And he was in charge of getting the security people's attention

18     so they followed Mladic's order - right? - as he is doing in this

19     document?  Nobody had done anything for two weeks and --

20        A.   [No interpretation]

21        Q.   -- Tolimir let them have it.

22             One last question.  The Mladic document we see, the order to get

23     personnel, and then the Tolimir document we see implementing that, can we

24     say that the Mladic document is a good example of "komandovanje" and the

25     Tolimir document is a good example of "rukovodjenje"?

Page 18793

 1        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 2        Q.   And whether it's a command or a "rukovodjenje," the people that

 3     are on the other side of these communications have to do what they are

 4     told to do, don't they?

 5        A.   Well, you can see that, first of all, they didn't do what they

 6     had been told to do, and then the general reminded them that they had to

 7     take action.  And I probably reminded the individuals who were to act in

 8     a certain document.  I probably told them to accelerate the preparations

 9     for having contracts drawn up with members of the 2nd -- members of the

10     10th Detachment.  But in answer to your question my answer is yes.

11        Q.   There is no doubt in your mind whatsoever, is there, that they'd

12     acted on Tolimir's reminder?  Or warning, as he called it?

13        A.   There is no doubt in my mind but they worked slowly.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's break time.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  We inquired, in the

17     meantime, if it would be possible to have an extended third session

18     today, that means from 1.00 to 2.30.  We didn't get a response from the

19     relevant people yet, because this involves interpreters and the whole

20     support staff.  We will let the parties know as soon as possible as we

21     get this information, at least at the beginning of the next session.

22             We must have our second break now and will resume at 1.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 18794

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber is very grateful for the staff who is

 3     now prepared to sit until 2.30 today, but just to make it clear to both

 4     parties, there is no time pressure at all.  We can try to finish the

 5     testimony of this witness today.  If it is not possible because there are

 6     remaining questions, especially in re-examination, we can continue on

 7     Monday.  Just to let you know how things stand.

 8             Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  Can we go to D248.

10        Q.   And this is a document that the Defence has introduced.  It's

11     a -- it's entitled: "Intelligence Support of the Armed Forces," general,

12     1987.  So I think you will see it's an old JNA document.  There's the

13     front of it.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to page 24 in the B/C/S and page 18 in

15     the English.

16        Q.   And this should be the chapter entitled: "Organisation of

17     Intelligence Support of the Armed Forces," and I just want to ask you

18     about this -- it's paragraph 14 that you see up there.

19             "The intelligence organ of the superior command staff of the

20     armed forces directs and co-ordinates the expert work of the intelligence

21     and reconnaissance organs and reconnaissance units in directly

22     subordinate commands, staffs and units, provides expert assistance, and

23     controls their overall intelligence and reconnaissance activity."

24             Was this basic rule used in the VRS?

25        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 18795

 1        Q.   Okay.  Moving on to another subject briefly.  You spoke about

 2     rather important topic briefly.  It was on page 18541 [Realtime

 3     transcript read in error "48451"].  And the general asked you:

 4             "Since you were an assistant commander in both the Main Staff and

 5     at the corps level, can you tell us whether the assistant commander at

 6     the Main Staff could issue orders to assistant commanders at the corps

 7     level; in other words, did they have command ability or capability?"

 8             And your answer was:

 9             "No."

10             Now, of course, as I think you have reiterated and I have agreed,

11     we know that assistant commanders are not commanders and they don't have

12     command ability, correct?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   But as we've already seen --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 64, line 22, I

17     think the page of the transcript noted down is erroneous.  We haven't yet

18     reached that page, in fact.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I hope we will never reach that in this trial,

20     Mr. Gajic.  I don't know if the -- now the microphone is working.  That's

21     true, but that will be corrected.  You see the sign after the page

22     number.  And the Registrar found the relevant page.

23             Mr. McCloskey, continue, please.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   So we agree on that, but as you've seen, we have seen an example

Page 18796

 1     of General Tolimir speaking in documents to his subordinate assistants.

 2     So I want to see if we can just clarify that because it slightly muddied

 3     the way that question was asked.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So let's go now to 65 ter 7556.  And this is a

 5     document with a new 65 ter number that we brought up in response to this

 6     very important issue, and it is a two-page document.  It may be easier if

 7     the -- if the witness had both pages, though the second page is only a

 8     few lines.  And for the benefit of everyone, the English is also

 9     two pages, but this is from Chief Colonel Zdravko Tolimir.  So if we --

10     and it's taking this issue back in time.

11        Q.   As we see, this is a -- it goes back into at least December of

12     1992.  But it's from the VRS, at that time, administration for

13     intelligence and security affairs, entitled: "Procedure with Prisoners of

14     War in the Manjaca POW Camp."  And it's General Tolimir again, as we have

15     seen him do on July 9th, 1995, he is passing on or saying something

16     relating to a decision by President Karadzic.  And we see here that he

17     says President Karadzic has decided to disband the Manjaca LRZ on

18     25 December 1992, Catholic Christmas, as a token of goodwill and in order

19     to reduce the tensions among the international general public caused by

20     nonobjective reporting about the LRZ situation in the Republika Srpska.

21     He will announce his decision via the media.

22             And now this is what General Tolimir is telling to, as we see,

23     the 1st Krajina Corps, the department for intelligence and security,

24     personally, to Bogdanovic, regarding the procedures for prisoners of war.

25             After the decision has been publicly announced, all prisoners in

Page 18797

 1     the Manjaca LRZ will be handed over to the ICRC and will leave our state

 2     in a way that they organise.  However, our position that we cannot

 3     release certain number of Croats because of the large number of our

 4     soldiers in Croatian camps, as well as extremist Muslims and Muslims

 5     against whom criminal reports have been submitted for serious criminal

 6     offences and crimes against humanity has been respected by

 7     President Karadzic.  In accordance with this, it is necessary that you

 8     proceed as follows.

 9             And now he's directing people as we can see.

10             By 15 December 1992, investigate and report whether you have a

11     suitable place in your zone for the relocation and accomodation of the

12     aforesaid categories of prisoners of war.

13             With respect to the Muslims for whom you have operational and

14     technical documentation that they have comitted serious crimes, crimes

15     against humanity, and for whom you possess information that they are

16     extremist and will rejoin their hostile formations on being released, and

17     against whom you have not submitted criminal reports, do so immediately.

18     Also separate these Muslims and prepare to relocate them and accommodate

19     them outside the Manjaca camp.

20             So it goes on on the second page.  It talks about carry out the

21     above with full secrecy measures.  I won't go through the rest of it, but

22     it does underline at the end:

23             "In the event of any lack of clarity in this telegram, contact

24     Colonel Tolimir or Captain First-Class Pecanac."

25             Now, this is clearly a direction, isn't it, of General Tolimir to

Page 18798

 1     the intel and security department of the 1st Krajina Corps for, among

 2     other things, to separate the potential war criminals from the group

 3     going to the ICRC and hold them?  Very directive in nature, isn't it?

 4        A.   Yes, these are instructions, directions.

 5        Q.   So this is not "komandovanje" but it's "rukovodjenje," this

 6     assistant commander at the 1st Krajina Corps has to do what Tolimir tells

 7     him to?

 8        A.   Mr. McCloskey, these are professional instructions.  The

 9     assistant of the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps has to show these

10     instructions to the commander.  The commander of the 1st Krajina Corps or

11     all the other corps who receive this - but this was addressed only to the

12     1st Corps -- should I slow down?

13        Q.   I can't quite hear the interpreter very well, but it doesn't hurt

14     to slow down.  We are all probably getting a little tired.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's apology.  The interpreter will

16     try to speak more loudly.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that.  Please carry on with your

18     answer.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Let me be

20     brief.  The assistant commander of the 1st Krajina Corps, upon receiving

21     such instructions or directions, has the duty of making the corps

22     commander aware of the fact.  He has to suggest measures to him, and when

23     he received the authorisation from the corps commander, then he can

24     implement the instructions in question.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 18799

 1        Q.   Can or must?

 2        A.   Must.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Just as I -- I see this thing at the end.  Basically it

 4     says in the event of clarity, contact Tolimir or First Class Pecanac.  Is

 5     that Captain First Class Pecanac the same Pecanac that was part of the

 6     Main Staff in 1995?  I think you put him in one of the little boxes.

 7        A.   I think so, Mr. McCloskey.  And I am pretty certain that it is

 8     the same person.  If his name was Dragomir in addition to that, then I

 9     would be completely certain.

10        Q.   As far as I can tell, Dragomir Pecanac stayed as a captain,

11     either a captain first class or a captain, throughout the entire war, but

12     yet he remained in the Main Staff in a fairly trusted position.  Can you

13     tell us why -- why so little promotion for Mr. Pecanac?

14        A.   Well, perhaps he was promoted to the rank of major just before

15     the end of the war.  I don't remember exactly.  But in the Main Staff he

16     was part of the personal security for the Main Staff commander.

17        Q.   All right.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer this into evidence.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7556 shall be

21     assigned Exhibit P2871.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

24        Q.   And another document on this same point, 65 ter 3840.  And this

25     is a two-page document which -- and again, I am not at the point where I

Page 18800

 1     want to go through all the details of this, but just fundamentally what

 2     it is, but to the degree that it will be easier for you to see what it is

 3     in two pages.

 4             It is from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska,

 5     intelligence and security sector, on 27 January 1994.  Again, it is from

 6     Assistant Commander Colonel Zdravko Tolimir, entitled: "Providing

 7     Security for a Military and Political Consultation."  And it talks about

 8     on order of the deputy commander of the Main Staff of the Army of RS, and

 9     it talks about security measures for people in Vlasenica at the

10     Hotel Panorama.  And it says "Order."

11             And we can see that it is an order to the 5th Military Police

12     Battalion from the Drina Corps to assign an officer.  And it's a very

13     particularised order and it won't in through all of it, guard posts and

14     things.  And then it goes to the commander of the 65th Motorised

15     Protection Regiment shall assign one officer and others and gives them

16     very particular orders, including six military policemen, as well as a

17     whole series of specific orders.

18             As we get to the second -- second page in English, second page in

19     B/C/S that I won't go over.  Paragraph 7 near the bottom -- at the bottom

20     of the page it talks about:  "I hereby assign Captain First Class

21     Dragomir Pecanac to carry out this order."

22             So we clearly now have an order from General Tolimir regarding

23     security, military police forces, and all.  So, is this, in his position,

24     his "rukovodjenje" or is he in some kind of command position now?

25        A.   Mr. McCloskey, it was part of "rukovodjenje."

Page 18801

 1        Q.   He is implementing the order of the -- of the deputy commander by

 2     developing his own orders consistent with that, correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer this document into evidence.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3840 shall be

 7     assigned Exhibit P2872.  Thank you.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I have similar documents, Your Honour, going

 9     up to 95, but that the Court has seen over and over again, so I think my

10     point is made clear.  So I will go to my last area because those

11     documents that I would ask him about are in evidence and I think are

12     pretty clear.

13        Q.   So you in speaking with General Tolimir spoke -- you both spoke

14     at length about these drones that NATO had that were -- you, yourself, I

15     think may have seen them.  And you described how they, as far as you

16     knew, were taking pictures of an area, and that you had -- you would

17     agree with me that these were a potential -- let me take you to

18     July 1995, when you had been bombed by NATO, both, I think, in May and in

19     July, around Srebrenica.  I won't go into the whole hostage crisis, but

20     we have drones flying around your combat areas of Srebrenica and Zepa.

21     This is an extreme intelligence threat and security threat for the forces

22     that could be photographed and potentially bombed by NATO aircraft,

23     correct?

24        A.   That's absolutely correct, Mr. McCloskey.

25        Q.   And so any significant military operation that was taking place

Page 18802

 1     in the areas around Srebrenica, Zepa, and Zvornik, these drones were a

 2     serious potential security problem for your people, correct?

 3        A.   Well, not just a security problem but a general problem because

 4     they could gather information in various ways.  And this information

 5     could be placed at the disposal of all those interested in it, apart from

 6     the VRS army.

 7        Q.   It could also potentially -- NATO could have potentially released

 8     photographs to the media, correct?

 9        A.   That was also a possibility, Mr. McCloskey.  I didn't notice

10     that, but it's possible and in technical terms it's quite possible.

11        Q.   Do you remember when Madeleine Albright did just that on the

12     floor of the United Nations?  It was in August 1995, showed pictures from

13     in and around the Srebrenica area?

14        A.   Yes, I remember that.  But it was described as being -- or they

15     were described as being satellite photographs, but it's not important.  I

16     do remember that.

17        Q.   Okay.  So let's go to P124.  And my previous -- all right.  Let

18     me just let you take a look at that.  This is 14 July, a date we're,

19     well, very familiar with in many respects now.  And we see that it's from

20     the command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade which, as you

21     know, is in Rogatica.  And you can -- well, you can't see it right now,

22     but it's in the name of General Tolimir.  And I want to take you to

23     the -- what's the second page in English and almost near the bottom of

24     the document in the B/C/S.

25             And it says:

Page 18803

 1             "Early this morning, since 0500 hours, in the area of

 2     responsibility of the 1st Plbpr," as we know is the Rogatica Brigade,

 3     "and above the Muslim enclaves of Zepa, Srebrenica, and Gorazde, there is

 4     an unmanned aerial vehicle whose flight path we can determine only by

 5     sound.

 6             "It is probably recording the positions and movement of units.

 7     Radio communication interference is registered.  The orders for

 8     camouflage measures and organisation of multiple communications systems

 9     have been issued."

10             So is it clear from this that on the 14th of July - we see this

11     is handwritten around 1045 hours - that in the morning General Tolimir is

12     fully aware of the threat of photography from, in this particular case, a

13     drone in the areas of Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde?

14        A.   Yes, Mr. Tolimir could have drawn the conclusion as to what the

15     results would be of this aerial reconnaissance.  And what the results

16     would be of having taken these aerial photographs.

17        Q.   And in this he is passing on the information that orders for

18     camouflage measures and organisations of multiple communications system

19     has been issued.  So he is passing on the fact that action has been taken

20     regarding this threat, correct?

21        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey, only it's not quite clear to me why a letter

22     from the brigade is linked to a signature of General Tolimir.

23        Q.   You didn't know that General Tolimir had been sent by Mladic as

24     he is -- tends to do when big operations are present to have a Main Staff

25     officer on the ground helping co-ordinate with General Krstic in this

Page 18804

 1     case, or others?  That practice was fully laid out in the 1992 report

 2     that you referred to earlier.  So you weren't aware that General Tolimir

 3     was sent down to that area at that time to help out?

 4        A.   No, no, General Mladic sent each and every one of us to various

 5     tasks.  Therefore, I am not disputing that.

 6        Q.   All right.  Let me go to another document.  It's P121.  This is

 7     a -- another document from the Rogatica Brigade, dated 14 July, and

 8     General Tolimir's name.  There is a stamp on it, 1845.  So it appears to

 9     be a few hours after the previous document.  And its strictly

10     confidential number is 520-54 and the previous one was 520-53.  So in

11     this one we have coming out from General Tolimir from the command of the

12     Rogatica Brigade all subordinate units of the Drina Corps.

13             And if we see the back of this one, the next page in English, we

14     can see that it has a stamp of the Zvornik Brigade, so they received it.

15     And in this document to all the brigades, it points out that:

16             "There is an unmanned aircraft in the air-space reconnoitring and

17     jamming radio communications.  Since the aircraft has been there since

18     0500 hours this morning and has probably taken pictures of certain

19     features and movements, the following needs to be done."  And it talks

20     about various things Tolimir is saying should be done, alerting people.

21     Maintain all radio communications.

22             Number 4:

23             "If spotted, the unmanned aircraft should be immediately

24     destroyed."

25             So this is a clear order from Tolimir to destroy this aircraft,

Page 18805

 1     is it not?

 2        A.   Yes, this is a clear order.

 3        Q.   So would you agree with me that ordering the shoot-down of a

 4     NATO aircraft who is potentially and most probably photographing what's

 5     going on on the ground in the area of the Drina Corps is a rather

 6     significant order in terms of General Tolimir's position and the

 7     situation you were facing?

 8        A.   Mr. McCloskey, members of the aircraft defence do not have to

 9     wait for anyone's order.  If they spot the target, an enemy target, call

10     it what you will, there is no need for them to await an order from

11     anyone.  Their duty is to destroy it if they have the resources for that.

12     But we didn't have such resources to destroy unmanned aircrafts in high

13     altitudes.  We didn't have missile units in that area.  We only had

14     artillery units that had weapons that had a range of up to 3.000 metres.

15        Q.   So the VRS at that time had carte blanche to fire on any

16     NATO aircraft, manned or unmanned?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Please,

19     this is a representation claiming that this is an order issued by

20     Tolimir, and I think that it should be put to the witness that this is an

21     order only passed on by Tolimir.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you may deal with this in your

23     re-examination.

24             Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 18806

 1        Q.   And, general, given that the troops on the ground, as you say,

 2     had the ability to shoot this down without orders, General Tolimir would

 3     have had the ability to issue such an order even without Mladic's

 4     approval, wouldn't he?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   So who would General Tolimir need to be in communication with on

 7     this point before sending this order out on the 14th of July?

 8        A.   With the commander of the Main Staff of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska or his deputy.

10        Q.   And I will go back to my original question:  Is this order, be it

11     directly from Mladic through Tolimir or Tolimir on his own - I will take

12     him at his word it's coming from Mladic - this is a significant order to

13     do a significant thing, is it not?

14        A.   Yes, it is, Mr. McCloskey.

15        Q.   So if General Tolimir on the 14th of July had knowledge that

16     thousands of able-bodied men were being transported visibly in vehicles

17     from Bratunac to Zvornik, and being assembled in schools around the

18     Zvornik area, and being taken out that afternoon and summarily executed,

19     an order to prevent any potential photographing of those operations and

20     activities would be a significant part of such an operation, to cover up

21     this crime, wouldn't it?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have an objection?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask Mr. McCloskey to give

24     us a reference.  Where does it say that I knew about this?  And then it

25     would be relevant, just like the first sentence is not clearly relevant.

Page 18807

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey started his question by the words,

 2     "So if General Tolimir ..." and so on.  You may raise this question with

 3     the witness in your re-examination.

 4             Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Can you answer the question, general?  I can simplify it:  If

 7     General Tolimir knew that there was this very visible operation to

 8     transport thousands of people up to Zvornik that could be photographed by

 9     this thing, this is a significant order to shoot it out of the sky so it

10     couldn't do it, isn't it?

11        A.   I cannot agree with you about the motives, Mr. McCloskey, because

12     anti-aircraft defence's task is to destroy targets marked with an X.  I

13     didn't speak about NATO aircraft at all.  And there is a service within

14     anti-aircraft defence that marks such targets and they are legitimate

15     targets that can be fired at.  However, we all in our minds can connect

16     the dots between various events which might logically seem correct.

17     However, your supposition that this has to do with the digging or

18     whatever you referred to, I cannot confirm that.

19        Q.   Well, you would agree with me that from these two documents we

20     can tell that General Tolimir is naturally concerned about NATO taking

21     photographs above the Srebrenica, Gorazde, and Zepa areas for natural

22     military reasons?

23        A.   Yes, Mr. McCloskey, that was the case throughout the whole

24     territory over which drones flew.

25        Q.   And if those -- if that drone or those drones flew over the

Page 18808

 1     positions of General or Colonel Pandurevic's troops as they were going

 2     into Zepa, and later on, as it flew up to Zvornik showed the movement of

 3     Muslim prisoners from a school to a field nearby, both such activities on

 4     the ground would give General Tolimir good cause to blow that thing out

 5     of the sky?  Not that he's doing it.

 6        A.   I don't know about General Tolimir, but I think that would be a

 7     reasonable conclusion for everyone.

 8        Q.   Okay.  One last -- last area in response to something

 9     General Tolimir said.  If we have the situation we have from a period of

10     13, 14, 15, 16 July, the steady and constant summary execution of

11     6.000 able-bodied men between Bratunac and Pilica, could such a thing

12     occur without superior orders from the highest levels of the VRS?

13        A.   What are you referring to?  The destruction of aircraft?  Can you

14     please repeat your question, and if possible, please, can you be a little

15     more brief so that I can follow you?

16        Q.   Could 6.000 able-bodied Muslim men be butchered over a four-day

17     period by the VRS without orders from the highest levels of the VRS?

18        A.   As far as I know, there was no order to kill people, regardless

19     of the figure that is involved.

20        Q.   How did those over 6.000, 7.000 men get murdered in four days

21     without orders from on high?

22        A.   I don't know about that.  I am not a forensic expert.

23        Q.   Thank you, General Skrbic, for all your time.  And I know it's a

24     tough spot to be in, and I don't have any further questions on

25     cross-examination.

Page 18809

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 2             Before Mr. Tolimir gets the floor for his re-examination, I have

 3     one question for the witness.

 4             Sir, you will remember that during your examination-in-chief you

 5     were asked about your war diary.  This is D350, marked for

 6     identification.  It started -- the entry started on the 18th of March and

 7     it ends somewhere in May, if I am not mistaken, 1995.  Today you told

 8     us -- and you told us the day before that later on you didn't take any

 9     notes; is that correct?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Today, this is transcript page 42, lines 11

12     through 16.  You said the following, I quote:

13             "In Belgrade, I, in fact, told you that I made certain notes on

14     my computer and these notes were made from memory, and it is on that

15     basis that I drew the conclusion that I must have been there on the 14th

16     or around that date because of that decree that concerned the retirement

17     of General Zivanovic and the appointment of certain other generals."

18             When did you take these notes?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Throughout the entire war,

20     Your Honour, I took notes that referred to personnel issues and

21     organisations.  And these notes that you referred to, operative notes,

22     were without the scope of my responsibility, and I said that this kind of

23     operative notes I did not keep after May.  And I am talking about

24     intelligence notes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And these notes about matters of your area of

Page 18810

 1     responsibility, you wrote down on your computer; is that correct?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, please, your re-examination.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  In order

 6     for us to complete within the working hours, could we please start with

 7     Exhibit P121.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Skrbic, take a look at line 1 of this

10     document, and can you tell me whether this order that you see here had

11     come from the Main Staff of the VRS and then passed on by the signatory

12     of this document?

13        A.   Yes.  I'm sorry for not waiting for the interpretation to finish,

14     my answer is yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  So was this order then issued by the Main Staff or by

16     Tolimir?  Thank you?

17        A.   Well, Mr. Tolimir, this is a little bit a leading question, but

18     one can see that this was issued by the Main Staff.

19        Q.   Thank you.  During combat operations, was it legitimate to

20     destroy NATO drones in our air-space?

21        A.   As soon as NATO took sides and sided with the opposite side, it

22     became legitimate.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Tolimir, I just stopped you

25     because when you finished your question, the translation was not finished

Page 18811

 1     yet.  Please don't overlap between question and answer.  Now your

 2     question.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, was the activity of anti-aircraft defence systems of

 6     the VRS legitimate in these instances and was it ordered by the

 7     Main Staff of the VRS?

 8        A.   Mr. Tolimir, I am not a lawyer.  Therefore, I am not able to tell

 9     you whether something is legitimate or not legitimate.  However, the

10     anti-aircraft defence of Republika Srpska had an ongoing order to shoot

11     down enemy flying aircraft, starting from drones and other aircraft, if

12     found in their air-space and provided they had technical capability for

13     that.  But as for legitimacy, please don't ask me to judge that.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             Thank you, Mr. Skrbic, for all your answers.  Thank you for

16     coming to testify here.  I wish you a long life and success in your

17     retirement period.  And on behalf of the Defence team, I would like to

18     thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no further

20     questions because we want to abide by the allocated time.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you will be aware of the fact that

22     we have an extended time available until 2.30.  If you have more

23     questions, you are entitled to put these to the witness, but it's up to

24     you to decide.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

Page 18812

 1     understand what you told me, but the Defence has no further questions for

 2     this witness.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

 4             Sir, this concludes your testimony in this trial.  You are now

 5     free to return to your normal activities.  The Chamber would like to

 6     thank you for the assistance you were able to give us in our tasks.

 7     Thank you very much.

 8             We have to adjourn and we will resume on Monday at 2.15 in this

 9     courtroom.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

12                           1.54 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the

13                           6th day of February, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.