Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19259

 1                           Wednesday, 15 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning.

 6             Mr. Tolimir, is the next witness ready to testify?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             May God's peace reign in this house and may God's will be done in

 9     these proceedings and not necessarily mine.

10             The Defence believes that the witness is ready.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness should be brought in, please.

12             I think we have a problem with the transcript in e-court.  It

13     stopped at the beginning of the words of the accused.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  Welcome to the Tribunal.

17     Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to

18     you now.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear a thing.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Court Usher should assist so that the witness

21     can hear.

22             Do you understand me now?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I do.  Now I do.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Very good.  Again, welcome to the courtroom.

25     Good morning, and please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is

Page 19260

 1     shown to you now.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I solemnly declare

 3     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO CULIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

 7     yourself comfortable.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I state for the record that the transcript is now

10     working in e-court.

11             Sir, Mr. Tolimir is now putting questions to you during his

12     examination-in-chief, followed by the Prosecutor.

13             Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15                           Examination by Mr. Tolimir:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Culic.  May God-speed be with

17     you and may God's will be done in today's hearing and not necessarily

18     mine.  I greet you on behalf of Defence.  I would like to thank you for

19     being here.

20             Since we speak the same language, I would kindly ask you to look

21     at the screen in front of you and you will see that our words are being

22     transcribed.  I would kindly ask you to start giving your answer only

23     when the transcript has stopped.  I'll do the same.

24             After my every question I will say "thank you" which will be your

25     clue to start answering.

Page 19261

 1        A.   Thank you, general, sir.  And I wish you all the best.

 2        Q.   My first question to you is this:  Can you state your full name

 3     for the record.  Thank you.

 4        A.   My name is Slavko Culic.  I was born on the 5th October, 1958, in

 5     Glavica, Glamoc municipality.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us something about your military

 7     education.  Thank you.

 8        A.   I completed the secondary military school of the land army.  I

 9     specialised in infantry training.  Thereafter I graduated from the

10     military academy of the land army.  Again, I specialised in infantry

11     training.  In the course of my service, I successfully completed training

12     courses and became company commander, battalion commander.  I passed a

13     test to become major.  And I also passed the entrance exam for the

14     command staff continuous education.  During the course of my service, I

15     attended some other minor training courses in order to improve my skills

16     with regard to the aforementioned specialties.

17        Q.   Thank you.  When did you graduate from the secondary school?

18     When did you graduate from the academy?  And when did you complete the

19     training courses for a company and battalion commanders, was that before

20     the war?

21        A.   I graduated from the secondary military school in 1977 in

22     Sarajevo.  I graduated from the military academy in 1980.  In 1983 I

23     attended a training course for company commander, and I completed the

24     training course for battalion commander in 1987 and 1988.  Which means

25     all the training courses I did happened before the war started in the

Page 19262

 1     territory of the former Yugoslavia.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  Can you tell us something about your

 3     professional career before the year 1992.  Thank you.

 4        A.   When I graduated from the military academy in 1980, I was

 5     assigned to work in the military academy of the land army.  I was the

 6     commander of an education group of cadets.  From 1983, I was transferred

 7     to the Brijuni garrison.  I was the commander of a navy infantry company

 8     there.

 9             From 1987 until 1990, I worked at the Mali Losinj garrison.  I

10     was a company commander there.  From 1990 to 1991, I worked at the

11     Pula garrison.  I was the deputy commander and battalion commander.

12             When the war broke out in the territory of the

13     Republic of Croatia in 1991, I was transferred to the Niksic garrison

14     where I served as battalion commander as well.  I stayed at the

15     Niksic garrison until May 1992; that is when I was transferred to the

16     5th Corps, to the Mrkonjic Grad garrison.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us, When did you become a

18     member of the Army of Republika Srpska?

19        A.   It was on the 19th of May, 1992, when I reported to the

20     Army of Republika Srpska at the Banja Luka garrison, and from then I have

21     been a member of the Army of Republika Srpska.

22        Q.   Thank you.  What was your establishment post when you reported to

23     the Army of Republika Srpska?  And then what happened during the war;

24     what establishment post did you occupy throughout the war?

25        A.   When I reported to the Army of Republika Srpska at the Banja Luka

Page 19263

 1     garrison, to be more precise, I was appointed the commander of what was

 2     then the 1st Krajina Brigade at the Mrkonjic Grad garrison.  I started

 3     working on the 10th of June, 1992, and I remained in that position until

 4     the end of the war and even after the end of the war.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  After the end of the war, what was your establishment

 6     post?

 7        A.   After the end of the war in the territory of Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina, I was still the commander of an infantry brigade, and that

 9     brigade was the 113th Brigade at the Mrkonjic Grad garrison.  And I

10     remained at that position until the year 2003, and that's when I was

11     pensioned off.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  And now can you tell the Trial Chamber

13     whether you knew Zdravko Tolimir and since when have you known him?

14        A.   I know General Zdravko Tolimir personally.  I met him in 1992 and

15     I knew of him even before, for a simple reason.  I knew that

16     General Tolimir worked in the same military district as I did.  There

17     were meetings, there were briefings, and I heard the name during those

18     events.  And finally, I personally met the general in 1992 when I arrived

19     in that area and when I took the position that I did.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  Did you have any encounters with

21     General Tolimir during the war after that first personal contact, and how

22     often did you see him during the war?

23        A.   During the war, from May 1992, I met General Zdravko Tolimir on

24     several occasions.  Our encounters were during meetings, briefings,

25     inspection visits, debriefings.  I can say that on several occasions, or

Page 19264

 1     at least a dozen times, General Zdravko Tolimir inspected my unit and the

 2     other units that were deployed in my area of responsibility.  Those

 3     meetings and encounters were always with a view to getting an insight

 4     into the situation in the units in the territory of responsibility and

 5     the issues that they were facing.

 6             Depending on weather conditions, on time limitations, my

 7     conversations with General Tolimir were always friendly, amicable.

 8     Whatever we were requested to do was with a view to improving the

 9     situation, our attitude towards the troops, our attitude towards the

10     officers, and there were all the other issues that were of some relevance

11     as a result of General Tolimir's inspection visits.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  Let us now focus on the events that took

13     place in 1995, the events that are of some interest for this

14     Trial Chamber.

15             My question is this:  In July 1995, did you have an occasion to

16     see any members of the Main Staff in the area of your responsibility or

17     elsewhere?  Thank you.  And I mean any of the members of the Main Staff.

18        A.   Towards the end of July 1995 when the Croatian military offensive

19     began against the territory of Republika Srpska, there was an increased

20     presence of officers from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

21     In my area of responsibility and beyond, I had an opportunity to meet

22     first of all with General Milan Gvero and his associates from the

23     superior command, as well as with General Tolimir and the late

24     General Djordje Djukic.

25             In my area of responsibility, while carrying out combat operation

Page 19265

 1     along the Donji Vakuf-Travnik axis, the command was visited by

 2     General Gvero, who inquired about the situation; and in late July, the

 3     command post at the Jajce garrison, General Tolimir paid us a visit and

 4     he was particularly interested to hear about the situation on the front

 5     line and in the units there.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  Can you tell us, can you remember, When

 7     did you meet Gvero and when did you meet the other individuals that you

 8     mentioned?

 9        A.   I saw General Gvero at the Jajce garrison and thereupon he

10     inspected my unit.  And that was on the 27th of July.  I remember this

11     date precisely because that was the day of the uprising of the people of

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So rather jokingly we asked the general whether

13     he had come to congratulate us on this holy day and whether he brought

14     any presents with him.

15             Secondly, in those days, after the Croatian offensive on the

16     28th of July, my town of Glamoc fell, and these are the dates that help

17     me recall that General Gvero was there at the time.  I remember that two

18     or three days later another group of officers from the Main Staff arrived

19     and I met with them at the Jajce garrison.  Among them was

20     General Tolimir as well.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, Do you know where this group from

22     the Main Staff was located when they came to visit your area of

23     responsibility?

24        A.   The group of officers from the Main Staff who had arrived in the

25     zone was billeted in a facility within the Kula barracks, after that at

Page 19266

 1     the Petar Mrkonjic barracks, and they remained there all through 1995

 2     until Mrkonjic Grad fell.

 3        Q.   For the record, can you tell us where the Kula Kasarna is

 4     situated?

 5        A.   The Kula Kasarna, or, rather, the Petar Mrkonjic barracks, is

 6     6 kilometres from Mrkonjic Grad on the Mrkonjic Grad-Kljuc road, between

 7     the villages of Rudici and Jovandici.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber something about the

 9     activities of your brigade and the axes that your brigade covered in

10     defending Republika Srpska?

11        A.   My brigade, the 1st Sipovo Light Brigade, as it was named during

12     the war, carried out defence operations along two axes.  The first one

13     was the Donji Vakuf-Travnik axis at the Komar pass.  They carried out

14     defence operations along the front line which was about 30 kilometres

15     long.  In total, we had approximately four battalions engaged in these

16     activities.

17             The second axis that the brigade carried out defence was the

18     Sipovo-Kupres axis, where we had a combat group which equalled, in

19     strength, three battalions.  This combat group was called Janj combat

20     group.  I have to tell you that following the fall of Glamoc and Grahovo

21     and after the enemy had reached the vicinity of Mrkonjic Grad, elements

22     from my brigade were engaged in the operation of closing the Mrkonjic

23     Grad-Kljuc road, and other on the Mrkonjic Grad-Jajce road.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, please, is the village of Bjelajac [Realtime

25     transcript read in error "Bilajac"] in your area, and can you tell us on

Page 19267

 1     which road it is situated?  Thank you.

 2        A.   The village of Bjelajce is seven kilometres from Mrkonjic Grad on

 3     the Mrkonjic Grad-Banja Luka road, and it was approximately three

 4     kilometres within the territory of the forces defending Mrkonjic Grad.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, From your superiors who were holding

 6     these axes, did you have any information that in the territory of the

 7     village Bjelajce there were refugees from Sipovo and Glamoc?

 8        A.   Well, I personally had an opportunity to see that the civilians

 9     who left Glamoc on the 27th and the 28th were provided accommodation in

10     the general area of Mrkonjic Grad municipality, including at the school

11     in Bjelajce.  I know about that because all of my folks also fled Glamoc

12     and I was keen to find out whether they were alive and well and if I

13     could provide some assistance to them.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, as for the other people who hailed from Glamoc,

15     did they come to Bilajac in order to see the refugees from their native

16     town?

17        A.   Of course.  Everyone feels a strong pain when it comes to their

18     native towns or villages, especially if information was scarce as to

19     their whereabouts.  Everybody wanted to offer a helping hand, not only to

20     us who came from Glamoc, but to everybody else.  I clearly remember that

21     we discussed the issues of how we could help all these refugees.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, just for the sake of the record:

23             Mr. Culic, could you please repeat the name of that village you

24     are talking about and spell it, please, letter by letter.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can do that.

Page 19268

 1     B-j-e-l-a-j-c-e.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We had some different

 3     spelling on the record.  Thank you very much.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You just said that you had meetings and that you discussed how to

 8     help the people.  With whom did you meet in that village?

 9        A.   Among others there were lots of people from the corps command and

10     people from the Main Staff.  The first one with whom I had a meeting was

11     the late General Djukic, and after that I met with you and we had a

12     discussion.  I was particularly interested in the condition of the

13     combatants in the area because all of my next of kin was in the unit that

14     was defending Glamoc.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, Can you remember approximately when

16     you and I met in Bjelajce?

17        A.   I think that was three or four days after my meeting with

18     General Gvero, and I think that that was on or about the 30th of July.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have Exhibit P2458,

21     page 2.  Thank you.  It's page 3 in English.

22             Thank you, Aleksandar.

23             [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 19269

 1        Q.   Mr. Culic, on page 2 we see the title: "The Bosansko Grahovo and

 2     Glamoc area."  And then look at paragraph 3 and I'm going to quote it.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I would appreciate if we could see

 4     first the first page so that we know about the document itself.  Then we

 5     form a better understanding.  We want to see both first pages.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we first see page

 7     number 1 in both versions.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, perhaps you can briefly introduce

 9     this document.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  This is

11     a document produced by the intelligence administration of the Croatian

12     Army entitled: "Intelligence Report," of 30th of July, 1995.  It was

13     printed in Zagreb on the 31st July, 1995, in Zagreb.  And it describes

14     the state and activities of the SVK, VRS, and VJ.  They produce such

15     intelligence reports on a daily-basis, and in this report they say the

16     following.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   And I quote --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we can go to the pages 2, respectively, and

20     3.  Thank you for this introduction.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Culic, as you can see in this chapter entitled "The Bosansko

23     Grahovo and Glamoc area," the third paragraph reads:

24             "During the day General Tolimir and General Djukic from the VRS

25     Main Staff have been sent to the Grahovo Glamoc front line in order to

Page 19270

 1     consolidate the situation and undertake measures to consolidate the

 2     forces.  To this purpose, a special team, ZM," means "joint command,"

 3     "will be set up at Drvar --"

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you please move to the next page in English.

 5     Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   "... which will be led by General Milovanovic following the

 8     directive of M. Karadzic," although it should read "R. Karadzic."

 9             My question is this:  Since this document that comes from the

10     Croatian Army was drafted on the 31st, as I said earlier, can you tell me

11     if this period, according to what you know, was the period when

12     General Tolimir was in the area of your brigade or, more precisely, along

13     the axis where you carried out your activities?

14        A.   I think that the time-frame is correct and I think that was

15     exactly the period when you were in the area of Mrkonjic Grad.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us the exact place where we met, and you

17     said that we did meet; tell us where it was.

18        A.   We met for the first time on that day at Bjelajce and then on the

19     same evening in Jajce at the division command post.  I can also tell you

20     that at the time my command post was at the Jajce garrison and so was the

21     division command post.  The two were only a hundred metres apart.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  Tell the Trial Chamber some more about

23     your knowledge about General Tolimir's movements from the time when you

24     met until the end of the war, as far as you know.  Thank you.

25        A.   I had the opportunity to meet General Ratko [as interpreted]

Page 19271

 1     Tolimir at least ten or 15 times in those areas.  And those were both

 2     official and unofficial meetings, or encounters.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Culic, Mr. Culic.  I just want to clarify one

 4     matter.  You said:

 5             "We met for the first time on that day in Bjelajce ..."

 6             Which day was it?  Do you recall the date?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said about three

 8     days after the 27th, so it would have been on the 30th or 31st.  I think

 9     it was the 30th, though.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please continue with your

11     answer to Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since at that time the situation on

13     the front line was extremely bad and difficult because the offensive of

14     the Croatian Army and the BH Army had begun along all axes, it was

15     necessary to take all organisational measures and other measures for the

16     system of command and control and combat readiness that had been

17     disrupted by the actions of the NATO aeroplanes.  And command was very

18     difficult, so we had to restore that system back to normal.  Under these

19     conditions, all the measures that the units and commands took to stop the

20     offensive and repel the attack, we had debriefings each evening and even

21     earlier than the evening when it was necessary.  There were also meetings

22     for the purpose of analysis.  Those meetings were held at the division

23     command.  Very often somebody from the Main Staff organs would be present

24     as well.

25             Apart from that, on the ground, that is, on the battle-field, it

Page 19272

 1     was necessary to assess the situation in the units and take adequate

 2     measures.  Since the defence system, the old defence system, had been

 3     disrupted, adequate measures were taken by the Main Staff officers or,

 4     rather, the forward command post of the Main Staff headed by

 5     General Milovanovic.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Culic, you said that some measures were being

 8     taken.  Here's my question:  Did any officer from the Main Staff command

 9     any subordinate unit in the zone of responsibility of your corps?  Thank

10     you.

11        A.   I must be very clear about this.  The exclusive right to command

12     and take decisions was with us, commanders.  After the meetings and

13     analyses at command level, we received clear and precise orders from the

14     superior command, that is, the division command.  So those officers

15     didn't command our units.  They were only there to assess the situation

16     from their level and set tasks to the units through the testimony of

17     command and control, and it's clear how that went: by way of orders.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have information if the Main Staff, or, more

19     precisely, General Tolimir, stayed in Western Bosnia for a longer period

20     of time?

21        A.   Yes.  I've already said that I had the opportunity to meet him

22     rather often.  Secondly, we met a couple of times at the front line while

23     defending Mrkonjic Grad or actually immediately before the fall of that

24     town, and I'm talking about a period of at least a month or two.  And we

25     must have met some ten or 15 times at least.  But even when we didn't

Page 19273

 1     meet for a couple of days, I did have such information, because we,

 2     brigade commanders, exchanged information about things.  So I did have

 3     information whether anybody was going to negotiations, or not, and so on.

 4     I was able to learn that from the media.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise.  Not everything was recorded when I

 6     started speaking.

 7             Did you know where the forward command post of the Main Staff in

 8     that part of your zone was?

 9        A.   I've already said that the forward command post was where I was,

10     at Kula, and I knew, roughly, where they were and how things happened.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to make a correction for the record.

12     Page 14, line 9 -- no, sorry, 8, the word "testimony" should be replaced

13     by "system."

14             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Now, can you tell us anything about the situation on the ground

18     from August until the end of November in the zone where your unit was

19     active in 1995?  Thank you.

20        A.   From July till October 1995, the situation at the front was

21     extremely difficult for two reasons:  One, the Croatian Army and the

22     BH army had launched their offensive ; and two, NATO forces and the

23     rapid-reaction forces had also launched their actions.  They started

24     bombing our command posts and communications hubs of the VRS.  In such a

25     situation which was bad both for the VRS and my unit, it was necessary to

Page 19274

 1     keep the territory, preserve the unit, and certainly the population, too.

 2             In this time-period, following the loss of some territories from

 3     which the Serbian population was expelled, Glamoc, Grahovo - after that,

 4     Drvar, Sipovo, Kupres, Donji Vakuf, Kljuc, and finally Mrkonjic Grad - a

 5     less favourable balance of forces came about.  From that time-period,

 6     from July until October or until the signing of the Dayton Accord, my

 7     unit, like other units that were engaged in the defence of those areas,

 8     were in a very unfavourable tactical position.

 9             At times, command was very difficult because our radio relay hubs

10     had been destroyed.  NATO planes had bombed that facility at

11     Rajakovo Brdo near Mrkonjic Grad.  Besides, the units were always in an

12     unfavourable position because there was an imminent threat of

13     air-strikes.  In such a situation, everybody made an all-out effort, both

14     the rank and file and the officers, to stop the enemy and engage in

15     active defence.

16             During that time-period, we were able, owing to the great efforts

17     of the fighters of the VRS, to stop the advance.  And we slowed down the

18     attack of the HV and the BH army after some 20 or 30 days.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know anything about the losses that the

20     population incurred during the NATO air-strikes and the actions of the

21     rapid-reaction forces as well as those of the HV and the BH army?  Thank

22     you.

23        A.   Yes.  I personally have such information, among other things

24     because I was in that area even after the war and I was able to see that

25     there were victims, because while that -- when that radio relay hub was

Page 19275

 1     attacked, four soldiers got killed in 1995.  After that, upon the signing

 2     of the Dayton Accord and the return of the population to that area, we

 3     found over 180 killed civilians in Mrkonjic Grad municipality alone.  But

 4     there were more in the areas of Sipovo, Glamoc, Drvar, and other places

 5     that had been occupied by the HV forces.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it logical, then, for the Main Staff to have

 7     forward command posts in an area where the aggression of third countries

 8     and NATO forces against the RS was being slowed down and was that one of

 9     the reasons why these officers were in Western Bosnia where your brigade

10     and your corps were?

11        A.   Yes.  Clearly the Main Staff assessed the situation, and it was

12     the gravity of the situation in the theater of the Western Krajina, where

13     there was an aggression of the HV forces, was the reason why they went

14     where things were worst.  And I am sure that there was a command post

15     there.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In your previous answer you mentioned a relay station

17     that was bombed by NATO planes.  You mentioned its name.  But do say next

18     to which facility it was and who was staying at that facility.  Which

19     soldiers are belonging to which unit?

20        A.   I mentioned a short while ago that one of the facilities targeted

21     by NATO planes was the radio relay hub of Rajak, which was on

22     Rajakovo Brdo, which is some 500 metres away from the

23     Petar Mrkonjic barracks.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Was there a forward command post of the Main Staff in

25     that barracks?

Page 19276

 1        A.   Yes.  There was also a forward command post of the Main Staff,

 2     which was probably one of the potential targets.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were involved in these events, and you have

 4     also explained who else was involved, did you during that period and

 5     later understand who was attacked there and who was an ally in that

 6     attack and in the combat?

 7        A.   Well, yes, clearly everybody of us was clear about the fact that

 8     the Croatian Army had entered and occupied a part of the territory.  Also

 9     that the BH army had an ally in the NATO forces that bombed us, not only

10     the Croatian Army as an ally.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  During the war, since you joined the VRS,

12     you were a brigade commander all the time; right?

13        A.   Yes.  That is correct.  I was brigade commander for 11 years.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were brigade commander, can you tell us

15     whether there were rules and regulations in force in the brigade that the

16     officers, both active-duty and reserve officers, had to abide by?

17        A.   Upon my joining of the VRS, the Republika Srpska and its army had

18     adopted the rules and regulations that were in force in the

19     Yugoslav People's Army.  Everything that had been set out in the rules

20     and regulations governing the activities of the Yugoslav People's Army.

21     I know that for sure because I was a member of the JNA, too, and I know

22     that all the rules and regulations governing our combat activities were

23     those that were in force in the JNA as well.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Later on, during the war, did we also adopt rules

25     from any of the other republics of the former Yugoslavia?

Page 19277

 1        A.   No, we did not receive rules from any of the other republics.

 2     However, as the Army of Republika Srpska, whenever a rule or a regulation

 3     had to be amended, for example, if we are talking about the dress code,

 4     and so on and so forth, we would receive such an amendment, an amendment

 5     of the dress code.  And those amendments became an integral part of the

 6     rule that was already in force, and all our members were duty-bound to

 7     comply with the amendments of that sort.

 8        Q.   Did the amendments in question apply only to your dress code or

 9     perhaps even to combat activities and combat operations?  Thank you.

10        A.   I believe that only the -- the only thing that happened was that

11     the Army of Republika Srpska adapted to the situation at hand in keeping

12     with the strategy and plans of the use of units that were drafted based

13     on the rules for the use of brigades, corps, and so on and so forth.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I stopped you again because you started too

15     early.  Please repeat your next question.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Culic, for the record, could you please tell us, What combat

18     rules are we talking about?

19        A.   We're talking about the combat rules of the former JNA.  We're

20     talking about combat rules for the infantry battalions, infantry

21     brigades, and other instructions about the work of the command staffs and

22     institutions.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  Thank you.  Do you know who in your

24     brigade commanded the military police, for example?  Thank you.

25        A.   Your Honours, in my brigade I was in command of the military

Page 19278

 1     police.  I was in command of all our -- my units, including the military

 2     police.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  For the record, please tell us, Was the security

 4     organ in a position to command the military police in your brigade or in

 5     any other brigade?

 6        A.   Well, you see, in our organisational structure we had security

 7     organs who were our immediately subordinated officers.  Their

 8     professional element and the work that they did - and that was provided

 9     for by the rules of the work of organs and services - envisaged that in

10     the process of decision-making, those professional organs proposed the

11     ways how certain tasks would be carried out.  However, the exclusive

12     right of command and use was in the hand of the commander.

13             As you know, whenever a task was distributed, the situation would

14     be assessed and the decision-making process followed.  During that

15     process, every organ had the right to suggest how the task should be

16     carried out.  Once the proposals were looked at, the commander was the

17     one who made the final decision, irrespective of the fact whether the

18     proposal was proposed by any of the organs, because the commander was

19     responsible for his decision and he had the exclusive right to command

20     and control.  And I can say for a fact that in my brigade, or any other

21     brigade, nobody else had the right to command, and that included a

22     security organ or any other organ.  The only person who could command was

23     the brigade commander.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  Who was in command of your security organ

25     in your brigade?

Page 19279

 1        A.   I was the one who commanded my security organ.  And that was the

 2     exclusive right of the commander.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did your brigade also have an intelligence organ in

 4     addition to the security organ?

 5        A.   In addition to the security organ who was subordinated to me as

 6     the commander there was also an intelligence organ, but he was the

 7     assistant Chief of Staff for intelligence, which means that he sent his

 8     proposals and he reported to the Chief of Staff.

 9        Q.   Can you please tell us, Who was the Chief of Staff?  Was that

10     somebody outside of the brigade or in your brigade?

11        A.   He was the assistant of my own Chief of Staff for intelligence.

12     And if he was his assistant, it was only normal that he reported to him

13     about his tasks.  So not to any other Chief of Staff.

14        Q.   Your security organ and your intelligence organ, could they

15     receive orders from the security organ of your superior command, for

16     example?  Thank you.

17        A.   Well, you see, the rules were very clear.  The system of command

18     and control was very clear.  All the orders followed that system of

19     command.  When it came to certain information, intelligence, certain

20     analyses, certain issues pertaining to professional and specialist

21     training, obviously the organ of the superior command would send that

22     mail to us, and then that organ informed us about, for example, the

23     activities of the enemy, and everything else that did not interfere with

24     the system of command and control.  However, primarily, as I have just

25     told, you security organs did not receive orders from the superior

Page 19280

 1     security organs.  They were their superiors only in terms of professional

 2     education.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Culic, can you tell us, for the record, Was

 4     Tolimir in a position to command the security organ and the intelligence

 5     organ in your brigade?

 6        A.   Well, knowing General Tolimir personally, I have to be very

 7     clear:  He never requested to do that.  He never did that because he was

 8     very familiar with the system of control and command and he would not

 9     have wanted to humiliate either me or any other commander by giving

10     orders to his security or intelligence organs.  I know personally that

11     General Tolimir, when he visited my unit on several occasions before

12     1995, he even spent several nights with my unit.  He never wanted to

13     impose himself as an officer from the Main Staff who had the last say.

14     He always showed understanding for us.  He always wanted to listen to us,

15     to hear us out, and to propose the best measures.  And all the measures

16     that were undertaken in order to implement certain tasks were implemented

17     pursuant to the orders and commands of the superior command.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  Thank you for having come to testify in

19     these proceedings.  I thank you for everything.  I thank you.  I wish you

20     God-speed in your future life and work.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no

22     further questions for this witness.  We have brought our

23     cross-examination to an end -- I apologise, it was an

24     examination-in-chief.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

Page 19281

 1             Mr. Culic, now the Prosecutor, Mr. Elderkin, has the opportunity

 2     to put questions to you.  But before he gets the floor, Judge Mindua has

 3     a question for the witness.

 4             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness Culic, regarding your last

 5     answer, you told General Tolimir that he never wanted to humiliate

 6     anybody and that he was always ready to listen to everyone.  But knowing

 7     full well that he was the person in charge of security and on the

 8     information -- security and information, rather, how was he able to give

 9     you his instructions and his orders?  How -- how would he give you those

10     instructions, in which manner?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, General Tolimir

12     never arrived in my unit on his own.  He arrived with other officers who

13     were my immediate superiors from my command, from the

14     30th [phoen] Division.  He did not arrive in my units to issue orders.

15     His primary purpose was to look at the situation on the ground.  He

16     wanted to obtain information from us and he wanted to receive information

17     from us.  He did not come to issue orders.

18             I don't know if you understood my answer.

19             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Thank you very much.

20     Yes, yes, you were quite clear.  Thank you very much.

21             But, yes, precisely after assessing the situation, after getting

22     all the information from you, he would take certain measures, he would

23     take certain decisions, so how was he able to apply these measures that

24     he had taken which -- in which way?  Through which channels was he doing

25     that?

Page 19282

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, as I have already

 2     told you, we held regular meetings and briefings in our commands.  At

 3     those meetings and briefings we received tasks from our commanders, from

 4     our superiors, with all the precise details of the measures that had to

 5     be undertaken.  And that was imparted not only to the general, but

 6     everybody else who came to visit.  So he did not issue orders to me

 7     directly.  Those orders were handed down from the most superior command

 8     down the line of command to the lowest units.

 9             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, indeed.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a follow-up question to you.

11             I understand that you had a very friendly conversation with

12     Mr. Tolimir during these meetings, but sometimes it's possible that a

13     superior officer is not satisfied with the information he receives, or

14     not satisfied with the situation he finds.  In which way he could

15     influence the situation to improve it?  In which way could he react to

16     the information received?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, as subordinates and

18     junior officers, we always valued the advice of our superiors.

19     Obviously, on the ground, if certain things were done, we sought advice

20     as to how to do them.  However, nobody ever came to us and ordered us

21     about.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             Now, Mr. Elderkin, please commence your cross-examination.

24             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to

25     Your Honours and to everyone else in the courtroom.

Page 19283

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Elderkin:

 2        Q.   Mr. Culic, good morning to you.  My name is Rupert Elderkin, and

 3     I'm going to ask you some questions on behalf of the Office of the

 4     Prosecutor.

 5             I want first, please, to cover your knowledge of

 6     General Tolimir's whereabouts during the period of the fighting in the

 7     Krajina in the summer of 1995.

 8             You've told us that the first time that you met General Tolimir

 9     in July of 1995 was in Bjelajce and that was on the 30th or the

10     31st of July; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You said that you met General Tolimir on about ten to

13     15 occasions during the course of the defence of the Krajina; is that

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you also said that General Tolimir remained in the Krajina

17     area throughout that period until at least the fall of Mrkonjic Grad.

18     Does that correctly reflect what you've testified to this morning,

19     Mr. Culic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Are you aware that General Tolimir travelled away from the

22     Krajina on a number of occasions during August, September, and

23     October of 1995?

24        A.   I know that from time to time he would go to attend meetings,

25     negotiations, and things like that.  I don't know how long he stayed

Page 19284

 1     there, but I know that he returned to the area.  At the end of the day,

 2     when it comes to his departures and negotiations with the enemy side or

 3     NATO, we could read about that in newspapers.  It was covered by the

 4     media extensively.

 5        Q.   But there is no specific reason why you personally would have

 6     known about General Tolimir's whereabouts day by day except on the

 7     occasions when you met him personally in the Krajina; is that correct?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   And I just want to clarify the time-frame when you say that

10     General Tolimir remained, generally, in the Krajina area.  You said it

11     was until around the fall of Mrkonjic Grad.  Can you please tell us on

12     what date Mrkonjic Grad fell, as best you can remember?

13        A.   Mrkonjic fell sometime in October 1995, in the first half of

14     October 1995.

15        Q.   Do you recall, when was the last time that you met

16     General Tolimir, either a date, or, if not, do you recall the

17     circumstances of your last meeting?

18        A.   Well, I remember that I saw him between Rogolji village and

19     Mrkonjic Grad on the road from Mrkonjic Grad to Kljuc.  I met with

20     General Tolimir and General Gvero late in the evening.  I was there

21     because I headed a unit in the direction of Mrkonjic Grad.  I remember

22     that it was the beginning of October, sometime around the 6th, 7th, or

23     perhaps the 10th of October, in any case it was in the first half of

24     October.

25        Q.   So to be clear:  The ten to 15 times that you met General Tolimir

Page 19285

 1     were between around the 30th or 31st of July and sometime up to the

 2     beginning or middle of October; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.  Mid-October.

 4             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, as a means to save time in covering

 5     questions about General Tolimir's whereabouts during this period, I have

 6     prepared and have loaded into e-court a summary of the dates and the

 7     corresponding evidence the Prosecution has concerning General Tolimir's

 8     presence at locations outside the Krajina region.  This isn't a piece of

 9     evidence.  It's something that I've prepared myself but as a means to

10     present more simply to the witness and to Your Honours what evidence we

11     have about General Tolimir's whereabouts in August through October.

12             I'd ask, with your leave, that I could show this to the witness

13     and the Court.  It's something that we gave to the Defence at the

14     beginning of this week, and, of course, I'd only go ahead with your and

15     their agreement, but I believe it would be an efficient means to proceed,

16     rather than going through the binder of documents I have one by one.  It

17     bears 65 ter number, provisionally, 7619, and I also have hard copies if

18     that would assist people more easily, both in English and B/C/S.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, could you explain a bit further the

20     purpose of putting this to this witness?

21             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, the witness has told us that he

22     generally understood General Tolimir to be in the Krajina area, obviously

23     away from Eastern Bosnia, away from the VRS Main Staff, throughout the

24     period in question, and in the 65 ter summary for this witness it was

25     indicated that this evidence should be relevant to certain paragraphs of

Page 19286

 1     our indictment - I think 23 and 23.1 - which concern other events that

 2     were happening at that same time.

 3             The evidence that I would like to take the witness through is to

 4     ask the witness whether he would agree that on many occasions

 5     General Tolimir did, in fact, travel to Eastern Bosnia, attend meetings

 6     with various significant individuals, including, on many occasions, with

 7     General Mladic and others, and that took him away from the Krajina and

 8     back to areas of Eastern Bosnia that are geographically relevant,

 9     obviously, to our indictment.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understood the testimony of this witness that

11     he only was able to tell us about his meetings with General Tolimir

12     between the 30th of July and, at the latest, 10th of October, 1995.  Is

13     this a period which is relevant to our indictment?

14             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, the period in question is that which

15     is when the reburial operation was under way in Eastern Bosnia, in the

16     Zvornik and Bratunac municipalities.  It's also the period when certain

17     of the men who were captured after the fall of Zepa were incarcerated.

18     And then during August and September those men were killed.

19             If I understand General Tolimir's position in leading this

20     evidence, he seems to be seeking to establish his distance from those

21     events.  If not, then I wouldn't see any relevance in having called this

22     witness to testify about his whereabouts in that time-period.  If the

23     evidence in chief about his whereabouts is relevant, then I would submit

24     that on cross-examination it's both necessary and proper for the

25     Prosecution to be able to go into those questions of whereabouts in that

Page 19287

 1     period.  But if Your Honours consider that General Tolimir's whereabouts

 2     is not in issue when considering the events in the indictment of August,

 3     September, October, in terms of the reburials and the foreseeable

 4     killings, then it's not a subject that, obviously, I would need to cover

 5     on cross-examination.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not what I said, but I just wanted to

 7     clarify your position on that.

 8             Mr. Tolimir, what is your position in respect to the request of

 9     Mr. Elderkin?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We have

11     not used this witness to prove exactly where General Tolimir was on each

12     and every day.  We just discussed those periods when he saw us, when he

13     heard that we were in his area of responsibility, in the area of his

14     responsibility of his corps or brigade.  We don't want -- if Mr. Elderkin

15     has proof that we participated in the events, that we were in the area at

16     the time, we invite Mr. Elderkin to present them for the benefit of the

17     Court.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber is

21     satisfied with this explanation of Mr. Elderkin.  If it relates to the

22     time-period 30th of July up to 6 -- no, 10th of October, 1995.  That is

23     the period the witness testified about and was examined by Mr. Tolimir.

24     We can do that after the first break.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I'd ask,

Page 19288

 1     simply because of the way I prepared the document itself - it contains

 2     entries for the last three dates in October which are the -- well, two

 3     dates, sorry, 14th and 27th, which appear on the sheet, because I've

 4     prepared it through to the end of October - if I were to restrict myself

 5     up to the 10th of October, would it be acceptable, still, to use the same

 6     document?  Otherwise, during the break I can try to retype this and load

 7     a new copy into e-court.  But if we can just ignore the end of the

 8     page --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are only referring to evidence which is

10     admitted during this trial.  That -- therefore, I don't have a problem

11     with that, if you restrict your examination to the period we talked

12     about.

13             MR. ELDERKIN:  And to be absolutely clear, Your Honours:  There

14     are some items on here which bear 65 ter numbers which have not yet been

15     admitted but which I have on my list to use with this witness.  But I

16     would certainly restrict myself to the indicated period.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We must have our first

18     break now, and we will resume five minutes past 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Elderkin.  You may proceed as discussed

22     before the break.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, if it's agreeable, I would propose

24     handing out hard copies of this reference list because that way I can

25     leave it on people's desks while we work alongside other documents in

Page 19289

 1     e-court.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, with the assistance of the Court Usher.

 3             Would it be helpful to put one copy on the ELMO?

 4             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, that is possible.  I've handed up

 5     four copies for the Bench, also for the Legal Officer.  Unfortunately, I

 6     don't have a fifth for the ELMO.  So if I could ask to keep one of the

 7     four or simply that everyone has one.  There are three in B/C/S for the

 8     witness, Mr. Tolimir, and Mr. Gajic.  So I think that there's no need to

 9     put it on the ELMO as well.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  Please go ahead.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:

12        Q.   Mr. Culic, in a moment I'm going to ask you about various times

13     when General Tolimir was outside the Krajina.  But since you told us the

14     period in which he remained in your area of the Krajina, and that was

15     until sometime in mid-October --

16             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd like, please, to see Exhibit D264.

17        Q.   -- and just confirm with you your understanding until the time

18     until which General Tolimir remained in your area and what was he doing

19     when he was there.

20             Now, on the first page of this document, Mr. Culic, you can see

21     that this is an order issued by the Main Staff of the VRS, and it's an

22     order to the corps level, and its subject is: "Blocking the Enemy

23     Offensive on the Western Republika Srpska Front."

24             MR. ELDERKIN:  And if we could go, please, down to the bottom of

25     the page in B/C/S.

Page 19290

 1        Q.   I think we can see the start of various instructions under point

 2     number 5.  And this item starts by saying:

 3             "a)

 4             "Main Staff of the VRS to direct the entire operation, engaging

 5     the following commanding officers ..."

 6             Sir, do you see that text at the bottom of the page?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   In fact, sir, you saw this document before when you testified in

 9     the Popovic case.  Do you recall that?

10        A.   I may have seen it.  I'm not sure.

11        Q.   You agree that at point 5(a) there is reference to engaging

12     certain commanding officers, at the bottom of the page, sir?

13        A.   That's the only thing that I can see.

14             MR. ELDERKIN:  Then can we go to the next page, please, in the

15     B/C/S.

16        Q.   You see at the bottom that it's an order from General Mladic; do

17     you see that, sir, at the type-signature at the bottom?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, let's look at the top of the page, please.  And what

20     you can see here, by each dash, is a reference to different members,

21     different generals of the VRS Main Staff, and each is assigned specific

22     tasks.  So, for example, the first is an assignment for the Chief of

23     Staff, and that's General Milovanovic.  Do you see that right at the top

24     of the page, sir?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 19291

 1        Q.   Now, if we go down to the sixth, I think, dash, you should be

 2     able to see a reference to General Tolimir.  And you see that just before

 3     the gap in the paragraph.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And there it reads, for General Tolimir's assignment --

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7        Q.   -- "Assistant commander for intelligence and security,

 8     Major General Zdravko Tolimir co-ordinates action by the 30th PD,

 9     defending the axis Mrkonjic Grad - village of Trijebovo - village of

10     Stricici and is responsible for the defence of the axis."

11             Do you see that, sir?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And you agree that at the beginning of this point in the order,

14     point 5, General Mladic was referring to the following officers as

15     commanding officers, because this operation, this defence, was to be

16     supervised and overseen by the Main Staff.  That's what it says in the

17     document, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And General Tolimir's assignment here is to lead and to be

20     responsible for defence on the axis mentioned, beginning with

21     Mrkonjic Grad.

22             Do you agree with that?

23        A.   Gentlemen, General Tolimir did not lead the operation.  He was

24     there merely as a representative of the command in order to co-ordinate

25     the work to the extent that it was necessary on the battle-field to

Page 19292

 1     achieve co-ordinated actions.  In command were the commander of the

 2     division and the commander of the corps.

 3        Q.   General Mladic is specifically assigning General Tolimir and

 4     making him responsible for the defence of the mentioned axis; is that

 5     right?  He's responsible for it according to this document.

 6        A.   Your Honours, it clearly says here in the order that he is to

 7     co-ordinate the work.  There is no responsibility of his.  Responsibility

 8     lies with the unit commanders.

 9        Q.   Sir, you mentioned earlier that Main Staff officers, including

10     General Gvero, General Tolimir, visited the Krajina from the end of July

11     onwards.  You said that they inspected your unit.  Almost all of the

12     Main Staff generals came over to the Krajina when the Croatian offensive

13     started, didn't they?

14        A.   Well, I don't know if all of them, but most of them, yes.

15        Q.   And the reason for bringing the Main Staff generals to the

16     Krajina was to strengthen and steer the defence that was being put up by

17     the VRS forces in that area.  They were there because it was a serious

18     situation and these were serious generals who had to be responsible for

19     their defence of the Republika Srpska territory.  That's right, isn't it?

20        A.   As I said earlier, within the system of command and control it is

21     the commander who is responsible for the implementation of decisions,

22     whereas the organs of the superior command only assist.  You can also see

23     in this order that he is to co-ordinate the actions of the forces on that

24     axis where the defence operation for Mrkonjic and access is to

25     Banja Luka, and there were several units and several corps engaged in

Page 19293

 1     that operation, which means that co-ordination was necessary in terms of

 2     the timing and the method of carrying out tasks.

 3             I don't know if I was clear enough.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Culic, you were referring to the word

 5     "co-ordinates," but the end of the sentence reads as follow:

 6             "... and is responsible for the defence of the axis."

 7             What is your understanding of the word "responsible" in that

 8     context?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand it to be that he is

10     responsible for co-ordination and organisation of the forces that are

11     engaged in the defence.  Because, along these axes leading to

12     Mrkonjic Grad and Banja Luka, there were units from other organic

13     formations and that necessitated a co-ordinated action in temporal and

14     spatial terms and that is where their responsibility lie.  In the course

15     of carrying out each specific task, whether it be defence or

16     reconnaissance or whatever, those who are responsible for these tasks are

17     unit commanders.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Elderkin.

20             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Could we please see 65 ter number 397.  First of all just the

22     front page so we can identify that document.

23        Q.   Mr. Culic, while this is going to come up in front of you in

24     e-court, let me tell you that this is the VRS Main Staff analysis of the

25     combat readiness of the army in 1992.  So from earlier in the war.

Page 19294

 1             MR. ELDERKIN:  And I'd like, please, to go to page 160, 1-6-0, in

 2     English, and page 139 in the B/C/S.  And if we could go -- scroll down

 3     the page in the B/C/S so we can see the part that begins in -- "In

 4     Posavina..."

 5        Q.   Sir, do you see the paragraph there now just below the centre of

 6     the page, starting:  "In Posavina and Western Bosnia ..."?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Let me read through it.  It's only a short paragraph.

 9             "In Posavina and Western Bosnia, we have put the emphasis on the

10     grouping of forces, air and artillery support, and in Podrinje, in a

11     specific way, the increased expenditure of ammunition and materiel and

12     equipment, as well as the use of the reserves of the Main Staff of the

13     Army of RS.  The presence of the commander of the Main Staff, or of a

14     representative of the Main Staff, in the units carrying out the mission

15     of the liberation of Podrinje in a specific way of giving weight to and

16     steering combat operations towards a single goal."

17             So that's just the sort of thing that the generals of the

18     Main Staff, including General Tolimir, were doing when they were sent to

19     the Krajina in the summer of 1995, isn't it?  They were giving strength

20     to and making sure those units were focused on the goal, as ordered by

21     General Mladic.  Do you agree with that, sir?

22        A.   Well, their presence definitely contributed to a better

23     performance of the tasks.  But this order also definitely shows that the

24     Main Staff has its own focus, just like every other unit has the focus of

25     its action.  Therefore, the order says that the commander is going to be

Page 19295

 1     either at the command post, forward command post, or an observation post.

 2        Q.   Mr. Culic, the Prosecution agrees that commanders issue orders in

 3     the VRS, but would you agree that General Tolimir and other specialist

 4     assistant commanders and other security and intelligence officers were

 5     experts in implementing the orders of the army's commanders?

 6        A.   Yes, of course.  All the assistants were experts in their

 7     respective fields of expertise, but they were not those who implemented

 8     the orders on the ground, because the system of control in our system was

 9     quite clear:  The orders were carried out by the commands or

10     institutions; that is to say, commanders of division, corps, battalions,

11     platoons, et cetera.  And that is on -- the basis on which our chain of

12     command was constructed.

13        Q.   I'd like to, please, go to one of the documents that's mentioned

14     on the list everyone has in front of them.  It's the first reference.

15     And this is for August, the date of the 6th of August, and this is a time

16     when General Tolimir attended the 52nd Session of the Republika Srpska

17     National Assembly in Pale.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we could have 65 ter 3455, please, on the

19     screen.

20        Q.   Mr. Culic, do you know if General Tolimir was in Pale on the

21     6th of August of 1995 attending this meeting?

22        A.   Your Honours, I know that he did attend certain Assembly

23     sessions.  But if I look at this date, I can only conclude that according

24     to this document he attended this session as well.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we could please go to page 35 of the English

Page 19296

 1     and page 31 of the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   Sir, you can see here General Tolimir is one of the speakers at

 3     the Assembly session.  Do you see his name at the top of the page, sir,

 4     followed by the transcript of what he was saying that day?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... the English --

 7        A.   I can see his full name.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  For everyone's reference:  In the English it's

 9     right at the time at the bottom of the page.  So we need to scroll down,

10     please, to the foot of that page.

11        Q.   And, sir, we've already discussed the role of the generals of the

12     Main Staff when they were assigned to the front lines.  In particular,

13     you've told us about General Tolimir in the Krajina in July.  Where did

14     General Tolimir come from?  What front was he at before the Krajina?  Do

15     you know that?

16        A.   I really can't tell you where he had come from.  All we knew was

17     that he had come from the superior command.  As for his movements, I

18     really cannot tell you anything about it because I don't know.

19        Q.   You know about the operations to take over first the Srebrenica

20     enclave and then the Zepa enclave in Eastern Bosnia which took place in

21     July 1995?

22        A.   Yes, I know that this happened in July.  But I don't know who was

23     there, who was moving about, or what they were doing.  I really had no

24     connection with any of those things.

25        Q.   General Tolimir was assigned in Eastern Bosnia and he was in Zepa

Page 19297

 1     until just before he came to the Krajina.

 2             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we go to page --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, you are at the moment a bit beyond

 4     the area Mr. Tolimir raised in his examination-in-chief.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, if you will allow me to continue

 6     with the next couple of questions, this returns to the subject of the

 7     responsibilities of General Tolimir in a command or an operational role,

 8     and it's discussed in this Assembly session as well as in additional

 9     documents.  I can show you the page, Mr. President, and hopefully you

10     will see where this is going.  It's at page 32 in the B/C/S and page 37

11     in the English.  And it's starting in the indented paragraph right in the

12     middle of the B/C/S page and also the middle of the English.

13        Q.   It starts - and this is General Tolimir responding to another

14     speaker:

15             "A statement that Zepa was a reason for the fall of Glamoc and

16     Grahovo, because two generals were assigned to Zepa, has been used as a

17     trump card here.  By solving the problem of Zepa, dear gentlemen, we got

18     two brigades from Drina Corps in the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps.  By

19     solving the problem of Srebrenica, we also got adequate reserves.  And we

20     did it in the period of time for which we estimated that the

21     international community would not react, which was immediately after the

22     events that took place in the Western Slavonia."

23             Do you see that part, sir, and does that reflect that

24     General Tolimir was assigned to Zepa in a role involving the oversight of

25     the take-over of that enclave which, according to General Tolimir

Page 19298

 1     himself, succeeded in relieving the pressure on the VRS and thereby

 2     assisted in providing troops for the Krajina?

 3        A.   I didn't understand your question.  I see in front of me a lot of

 4     things mentioned by the Prosecutor, but I don't know with whom

 5     Mr. Tolimir spoke with, what kind of report he is talking about, whether

 6     there were two or three generals.

 7        Q.   Well, sir, you can read for yourself, in the text in front of

 8     you, General Tolimir's statement about two generals being assigned to

 9     Zepa.  I believe it's uncontested in this trial that General Tolimir was

10     present as a general of the VRS Main Staff during the VRS operation

11     against Zepa.  And you can see that that operation, according to

12     General Tolimir, led to the successful completion in Zepa, and that

13     liberated units of the Drina Corps to go to the Krajina.  Do you agree

14     with that, sir?

15        A.   I didn't understand your question.  What you are asking me about?

16     Because if I read it, I can't see, from what I see, to whom

17     General Tolimir spoke, so your question is not clear to me.

18        Q.   Sir, this is the record of the RS National Assembly.

19     General Tolimir is speaking at that Assembly.  He's responding to another

20     speaker, but he's addressing the Assembly.  And this is a record of the

21     minutes of that.  So General Tolimir here is speaking to a wide audience.

22             In any event, sir, I'll show you something else, if I may, which

23     is a short video-clip.  And this is of General Mladic.  And

24     General Mladic here is discussing what role or part of the role that

25     General Tolimir played during the Zepa operation.

Page 19299

 1             MR. ELDERKIN:  And this is from Exhibit P1029.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, I don't quite understand this line

 3     of questions you are putting to the witness.  We discussed earlier in

 4     which way your questions during cross-examination should relate to the

 5     examination-in-chief.  If -- you should tell us in which way you could

 6     establish the whereabouts of Mr. Tolimir during that period we talked

 7     about by showing this video.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, at this stage my examination is

 9     focussing on one of the other subjects of examination-in-chief, which is

10     what kind of role General Tolimir did and could play when he was assigned

11     to one of the fronts of the VRS's combat actions.  General Tolimir came,

12     as we know, straight from Zepa across to the Krajina, and in the Assembly

13     session minutes he described that assignment, how two generals had been

14     assigned in Zepa, clearly responsible for the Zepa operation.  The

15     speech, as shown on this video, General Tol-- General Mladic - excuse

16     me - describes one of the activities that General Tolimir undertook

17     during the Zepa operation.

18             So it's following that part of the examination-in-chief in terms

19     of the responsibility.  Because it's reflected in this 6th of August

20     Assembly session, I found it more convenient to go straight to the video

21     which talks about that subject.  It doesn't, obviously, deal with his

22     whereabouts in August.  I can stick to the whereabouts line of

23     questioning first, but it did seem to me to be natural.  If you would

24     prefer that I save that until we've been through other documents

25     concerning the whereabouts first, I can also do it that way,

Page 19300

 1     Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was just wondering what purpose you are heading

 3     at.  But if you are now talking about command structure and command

 4     responsibilities of assistant commanders or members of the Main Staff,

 5     you may do that because that was one part of the examination-in-chief.

 6     But that was not clear from the outset.

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  I apologise for lack of clarity.  That's where the

 8     video is going.  I will return also to the whereabouts during the period

 9     August through the beginning was October.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe.

11             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.  Correct me if I'm wrong:  My

12     understanding of the evidence-in-chief related to the period

13     30th of August to somewhere in the middle of October.  And as I have

14     understood the evidence - correct me again if I'm wrong - Zepa operations

15     happened before 30th of July.  So do you think you are within your area

16     of cross-examination focussing on Zepa?  Thank you.

17             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you for your question, Your Honour.  My

18     cross-examination in relation to Zepa is to respond to the part of the

19     examination-in-chief where General Tolimir was asking the witness about

20     his understanding of what role he, General Tolimir, as an assistant

21     commander could perform in relation to military operations.  Not just the

22     Krajina operation, but, obviously, the representation is that

23     General Tolimir in the Krajina, if he was unable to give orders, direct

24     military activities, that would also apply for any consideration of the

25     role that General Tolimir played during the earlier operation.

Page 19301

 1             So at this point I'm moving away from the whereabouts, but it is

 2     focussing on that important part of the examination-in-chief.  And it's

 3     for that reason I'm talking about Zepa; not because, obviously, the

 4     witness was far away from Zepa and not present, I understand, during that

 5     operation, but because of the question of responsibilities.

 6             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on, Mr. Elderkin.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  And we could see the clip, please, which is at

 9     2 hours, 12 minutes, and 55 seconds through to 2 hours, 13 minutes, and

10     42 seconds.  And that reflects, for point of reference, the transcripts

11     of the same video, which in English is at page 11 and B/C/S at page 8.

12        Q.   And, sir, I'd ask you, please, to listen carefully to the part of

13     General Mladic's speech when he speaks about General Tolimir and a person

14     called Kusic.

15             MR. ELDERKIN:  Can we play it, please.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May we stop for a moment.  We can't hear.  I

18     think even the witness can't hear it very properly.  It's very -- it's

19     not loud enough.

20             But perhaps you can help us with the translation:  Is there --

21     are there subtitles or do we have a transcript?

22             MR. ELDERKIN:  There is, indeed, a transcript.  I don't see any

23     subtitles, so I doubt very much that there is a subtitled version

24     available in the system.  The transcript, I think, is associated with the

25     same exhibit number.  And, as I say, the page numbers for this section

Page 19302

 1     are page 11 in the English and page 8 in the B/C/S.  It may be -- since

 2     it's only a very short clip of under a minute, perhaps we could just play

 3     through and -- for what it's worth and then have up on the screen the two

 4     transcript sections.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please.  I agree.  Carry on.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:

 8        Q.   Sir, we are going to put on the screen now a written transcript

 9     in case General Mladic's words there weren't clear enough for you to hear

10     well.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  And as I say, I think it's page 8 in B/C/S and

12     page 11 in English.

13        Q.   Mr. Culic, if you see in the lower half of the page, you can see

14     a section beginning with the name of General Tolimir.  The video we've

15     seen started a little before that and played through to a little after

16     that.  The part concerning General Tolimir reads:

17             "From Boksanica, General Tolimir and Kusic fired on Ribioc."

18             Do you see that section, sir, of the transcript?

19        A.   Yes, I can see that.

20        Q.   Here General Mladic was speaking about General Tolimir playing

21     what was clearly an active role in the military attack on Zepa by firing

22     on that village.  Do you agree, sir?

23        A.   Gentlemen, as far as I know, General Mladic mentioned three

24     officers.  General Tolimir, who probably represented the Main Staff, was

25     among them.  I know that Kusic was a brigade commander, which means that

Page 19303

 1     it wasn't him who acted.  It was his unit that acted.  So that was the

 2     brigade under the command of Colonel Kusic.  And he was there, obviously,

 3     to represent the command.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I am finished with using the video.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, this --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is the video already in evidence?

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  The video is, Your Honours.  The Assembly session

 8     minutes are not.  I would propose to tender only a short range of pages

 9     for the section that I referred to, as well as, perhaps, the first page,

10     to give an indication of the date.  So that would be pages 1 and then 35

11     through 37 in English, and page 1 and 31 through 33 in the B/C/S.  And

12     that's for 65 ter number 3455.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you intend to upload these pages as a separate

14     document?

15             MR. ELDERKIN:  I understand that that's the easiest way to

16     proceed, so yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  After having uploaded this separate document, it

18     will be marked -- it will be received.  But this document, 65 ter 3455,

19     will be marked for identification.

20             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  And it will be assigned Exhibit P2878.  Thank

22     you.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:

24        Q.   Mr. Culic, I'd like you again to look at the list of places where

25     the Prosecution say General Tolimir was present outside the Krajina

Page 19304

 1     during August through October of 1995.  I only want to go to a couple

 2     more examples.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  The next one would be 65 ter 2494, please.

 4        Q.   And this is again an Assembly session.  It's the

 5     53rd Assembly Session, and it's in Pale.  It takes place on the

 6     28th of August of 1995.  And if we could first see the cover page.

 7             So you see the date and the title of this.  It's the minutes of

 8     that session.

 9        A.   I can see it.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  Can we first go, please, to page 14 in English,

11     page 18 in B/C/S.  We can go to the bottom half of the page in English,

12     please, and it will be the -- yep, the --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             MR. ELDERKIN:  That's fine right now in the B/C/S.

15        Q.   So you see the paragraph which talks about European peace

16     negotiations.  It starts with "I will tell you about some details here

17     later ..." and then it describes a couple of meetings of peace

18     negotiations; one in Geneva on the 16th of August and a second time in

19     another European city on the 26th of August.  And then it reads --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- "The first time the talks were conducted by

22     President Krajisnik, Mr. Zametica, our side, asked that we don't send

23     more negotiators.  And the second time, on the 26th of August,

24     President Karadzic, Mr. Lukic, General Tolimir, President Krajisnik, and

25     myself."

Page 19305

 1             Sir, do you agree that this indicates General Tolimir was away

 2     from the Krajina at European negotiations on the 26th of August?

 3        A.   Yes, that day, for that day.

 4             MR. ELDERKIN:  Then can we please go to page 22 of the English,

 5     page 28 of the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   Sir, do you see here that General Tolimir spoke at the

 7     53rd Assembly Session on the 28th of August?  He was also away from the

 8     Krajina on that day and he was in Pale that time.

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I would ask to tender a couple of

11     these pages.  There is, actually, an exhibit, P2435, which contains the

12     section we're seeing on the screen now.  It doesn't contain the previous

13     page, page 14 in English, page 18 in B/C/S, of which refer to

14     General Tolimir's attendance on the 26th of August at the other

15     negotiations.  So I only want to put in, again, the cover page, and then

16     page 14 in English, page 18 in B/C/S, which we can upload separately.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is appreciated.  And it will be received.

18     And until that point in time it will be marked for identification.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be assigned Exhibit P2879.  Thank you.

20             MR. ELDERKIN:

21        Q.   Sir, without going into every other document, do you agree, as a

22     general proposition, that there were numerous occasions when

23     General Tolimir was away from the Krajina during August, September, and

24     October of 1995?

25        A.   I know that he spent some time in Krajina.  I also know that he

Page 19306

 1     had tasks that took him all over the place.  But he also returned.  I

 2     don't have any doubts about the documents that you're showing me.  I

 3     don't doubt their authenticity.  When there was an Assembly meeting, I'm

 4     sure that he was present.  So I'm not contesting anything here.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd like, please, to see Exhibit P104, which is a

 6     collection of maps.  And go to page 4, please, in e-court.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  While this will be uploaded:  Mr. Elderkin, you

 8     have used 65 ter 397, "The Analysis of Combat Readiness."  Are you

 9     tendering parts of it?

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  Excuse me for one moment.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please.

12                           [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

13             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I would ask to tender the whole

14     document.  If, however, Your Honours will only allow a part to be

15     admitted, it would be the section that I read from.  But I believe that

16     the whole document is a relevant analysis.  It's not contested as to

17     its --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many pages?

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  -- authenticity.  I believe the English is

20     149 pages and the B/C/S, I think, slightly shorter.  It's 109, off the

21     top of my head, but I can check.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what is your position?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't object to

24     the admission of anything that this Court deems to be evidence.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, I see you on your feet.

Page 19307

 1             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I remember

 2     properly, this analysis was also used when Mr. Butler was examined in

 3     this courtroom, or perhaps the OTP relied on it.  Maybe we should check

 4     whether one part of that analysis is already in evidence.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I understand that Mr. Butler does,

 6     indeed, cite to this report in his own reports.  We're not sure if -- off

 7     the top of our heads, if he actually testified about it, but it's

 8     certainly material that he uses in his reports.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told by the Court Officer that a part of

11     this analysis is already in evidence, tendered through Witness Butler, as

12     P2491, but not the whole document.  Now you are tendering the whole

13     document, and the translation is already available; therefore, it will be

14     received as a separate document.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 397, the complete

16     document, shall be assigned Exhibit P2880.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you very much.

19             And if I could now have P104, at e-court page 4, on the screen.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have one map on the screen.  Is that not the

21     correct one?

22             MR. ELDERKIN:  That is the correct one.  If we could zoom in as

23     much as possible onto Bosnia to keep it within the edges.  I think a few

24     centimetres we can go past.  Yes.  I think that's perfect, thank you.

25             I'd also ask if the witness would be able to mark on this map

Page 19308

 1     just so we can be clear where --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  -- he was engaged.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the Usher.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:

 6        Q.   Sir, the Usher is going to show you how to use this electronic

 7     pen to draw on the screen.

 8             First of all, do you confirm you recognise this map which shows

 9     the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?  And roughly the different

10     shading areas represent the -- the borders of the entities.  I understand

11     that things were moving around in the summer of 1995, but the part in the

12     west, that's the Krajina area where you were based.  And Republika Srpska

13     forms this wider shape, narrows off up around Bijeljina, and then runs

14     north-south along the eastern side of Bosnia.

15             Could you mark on there, please, sir, a circle -- a reasonably

16     large circle where you were engaged, where your brigade was located in

17     the summer of 1995.  As a point of reference:  Just below the S of Bosnia

18     is the town of Sipovo, of the centre of Sipovo municipality.

19        A.   Yes, I can see it.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please mark it.  That area.

21             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22             MR. ELDERKIN:

23        Q.   Sir, could you tell us which -- the first line that we see on the

24     map that runs through the federation territory, what does that represent,

25     if anything?  Is that the front line at the time?  Or ... all I can see

Page 19309

 1     at the moment is a longer line and then a short vertical line.  What does

 2     the longer line represent?

 3        A.   The longer line is the axis of my brigade from Donji Vakuf to

 4     Travnik.  It encompasses the zone on the right, excluding Bugojno; and on

 5     the left, Mount Vlasic.  The second part of the brigade which was Janj

 6     combat group, or Combat Group 1, encompassed the road across Kupres and

 7     all along the border from Glamoc to Vitorog.  The third smaller part,

 8     when the offence was launched, that part of the brigade covered the axis

 9     in the direction of Kljuc, i.e., Jajce.

10        Q.   And this is the area where General Tolimir was president --

11     present - excuse me - when he was in the Krajina in the summer of 1995;

12     is that right?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  This area is even wider, because the territory of

14     Krajina extended all the way to Drvar, so this did not cover only the

15     area where I was.

16        Q.   And in the summer of 1995, for anyone - General Tolimir or anyone

17     else - who wanted to travel from the Krajina through Republika Srpska

18     territory to get back to the VRS Main Staff at Crna Rijeka or to get to

19     Pale, they would have to travel all the way through the Republika Srpska

20     territory that we can see on the screen; is that correct?

21        A.   Well, there was a road.  They moved in vehicles or in

22     helicopters.  It all depended on the task at hand.

23        Q.   And if we just concentrate on the road, that would mean

24     travelling from the area where you've put your markings northwards

25     towards Banja Luka, then across and through the corridor to Bijeljina,

Page 19310

 1     down past Zvornik, Vlasenica, to Han Pijesak or even further to Pale.

 2     That would be roughly the road route, wouldn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.  The road led to Banja LukaBanja Luka was the cross-roads

 4     either towards Prijedor or Prnjavor or towards the corridor.  In any

 5     case, that was the road that was used for travels.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I don't need for you to make any more markings and I don't

 7     need to use this map any more.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  So I'd ask if this could be saved, unless

 9     Your Honours wish to add anything else to what's marked now.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering this marked map?

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  If I may, please, yes.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, page 4 of Exhibit P104, marked by

14     the witness in Court, shall be assigned Exhibit P2881.

15             MR. ELDERKIN:

16        Q.   Mr. Culic, you referred to NATO bombing of various communications

17     facilities.  You didn't give us a date for that bombing.  I'd ask you if

18     you agree that NATO's bombing campaign was starting on the

19     30th of August of 1995?  That's the date when many of the VRS

20     communications facilities was bombed.

21        A.   It was a long time-period.  I don't know exactly when that

22     started, but I know that communications centres and radio hubs were

23     bombarded by NATO.  I know that we received air alert signals every day.

24     My area of responsibility was often overflown by NATO.  One NATO aircraft

25     was even grounded in the general region of Vakuf.

Page 19311

 1        Q.   I'd like the return to the subject that you mentioned earlier

 2     about the ability of security officers to give orders.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  And I'll first ask, please, to show Exhibit P2176.

 4             Your Honours, this doesn't appear on my cross-examination list.

 5     It's an area that only came up during the examination-in-chief.  The

 6     exhibit is already admitted, so hopefully it doesn't cause any problem

 7     for the Defence that it's being used now.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead, please.

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:

10        Q.   Mr. Culic, you can see here a document headed from the

11     VRS Main Staff security and intelligence sector, and specifically from

12     the security administration.  You see that at the top of the page.

13             If it would help, we can zoom in.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And at the bottom of the page do you see that this document was

16     written, signed, and sent by Ljubisa Beara?  It's under the round stamp

17     on the left at the bottom.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Sir, do you happen to know who Colonel Beara was?  Did you ever

20     serve with him?

21        A.   I never served with him, but I know who he was.  He was the chief

22     of security in the Main Staff of the VRS.

23        Q.   And, sir, this telegram from Colonel Beara -- actually, he signs

24     here as "Naval Captain Beara."  This is addressed to the security section

25     of the East Bosnia Corps, as well as security section of the Drina Corps,

Page 19312

 1     and to the chief of intelligence and security of the 1st Podrinje Light

 2     Infantry Brigade.  You see that just below the heading, sir?

 3        A.   To the chief of the security organ, I would say, most probably.

 4        Q.   And if you just take the time - it's a short communication - to

 5     read through.  At the end of the first paragraph, there's reference to

 6     Atlantida must be transported in secret to the Mlin military prison in

 7     Bijeljina in the night of 10th to 11th of June, 1995, or at some other

 8     appropriate time.  Captain Carkic will arrange this with brigade

 9     commander Major Rajko Kusic and personally carry out the task by

10     announcing his arrival to Colonel Todorovic, chief of the OB IBK and

11     explaining our demands in person.

12             Sir, do you agree that here Beara is issuing orders to his

13     subordinates in the security service to carry out a very specific task;

14     namely, the transport of this Atlantida to the Mlin prison?  He's

15     instructing and ordering his subordinates here, isn't he?

16        A.   Yes, he's issuing instructions.

17        Q.   And those instructions were to be followed, weren't they?

18        A.   As far as I can see from the document, he was giving instructions

19     and guidelines to the organ as to how they should carry out this task.

20     And he also conveyed to them that this professional task that they have

21     to carry out, that it will be performed in agreement with the unit

22     commander.

23        Q.   Mr. Culic, we've also heard testimony in this case about

24     General Tolimir giving orders or instructions to subordinate security

25     officers, specifically that he sent a telegram to the East Bosnia Corps.

Page 19313

 1     And this is around the 12th of July of 1995.  That preparations should be

 2     made at the Batkovic collection centre for the arrival of 1.000 to 1.200

 3     prisoners.  That's again an example of security officers being able to

 4     issue orders or instructions within their service, isn't it?

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask Mr. Elderkin to

 7     show the witness the telegram that Tolimir sent on the 12th to

 8     East Bosnia Corps.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would agree with Mr. Tolimir.  It would be

10     helpful for the witness, and for a better understanding of the Chamber,

11     to see the document you are referring to.

12             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'm referring to the testimony of another witness

13     in the case, and that's of Witness Todorovic, Your Honours.  And that's

14     at reference 12933 to 12934 of this trial.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have that on the screen.

16             And you should point out the lines you are referring to.

17             MR. ELDERKIN:  If it will help to locate it, it's the

18     18th of April, 2011.

19        Q.   And you can see, starting at line 23 of page 12933, an answer

20     given by the witness, which starts:

21             "Yes.  I cannot really be specific about the date.  I couldn't do

22     it in Belgrade, I cannot do it now, as to whether that was on the same

23     day in the evening or the following day or two days later, but in any

24     case, it was after the fall of Srebrenica, I think, and I am 90 per cent

25     sure that a telegram came from the Main Staff that the East Bosnia Corps

Page 19314

 1     command should be engaged and should prepare accommodation at the

 2     Batkovic collection centre for another 1.000 to 1.200 -- 1.100 or 1.200.

 3     So 1.000 to 1.200, as far as I can remember.  Thus to prepare

 4     accommodation for new detainees who are going to be coming over the

 5     coming days."

 6             And so the testimony is that this order came from the security

 7     and intelligence sector from General Tolimir.  Sir, as indicated by this

 8     witness's testimony that I've read to you now, the instructions about

 9     making preparations for a receipt of prisoners were instructions which

10     were issued with the intention that they be followed.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Elderkin please show the

13     witness where it says that he received an order from Mr. Tolimir.  Thank

14     you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin.

16             MR. ELDERKIN:  I've read all that I need to read from the

17     transcript, and hopefully my question is clear.  I've read out the

18     section referring to this telegram.  I'm now asking the witness whether

19     those instructions -- the word "order," if General Tolimir wishes I don't

20     use it, I can say "instructions" -- it's what this witness doesn't know

21     any more about what happened in the East Bosnian Corps in terms of

22     receipt of that telegram order or instruction, but my question relates to

23     his knowledge about what would happen, what was meant to happen, on

24     receipt of such a communication from the Main Staff.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand your position, Mr. Elderkin.  But in

Page 19315

 1     your question you presented already an interpretation and your

 2     understanding of this part of the transcript.  I don't see the name of

 3     Mr. Tolimir in that part of the transcript.  Not even his sector in the

 4     Main Staff.  I only can read that a telegram came from the Main Staff,

 5     that the East Bosnian Corps command should do that and that.  It's better

 6     not to put too much of your own interpretation into a question.

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  Well, I can restrict my question and re-ask it as

 8     follows, if it's acceptable:

 9        Q.   An instruction issued by the Main Staff - and I refer to the

10     instruction insofar as you can understand it from what I read to you of

11     the other witness's testimony - such an instruction from the Main Staff

12     was issued with the intention that it would be followed, the instructions

13     would be carried out.  Do you agree with that, sir?

14        A.   Of course the Main Staff issued orders that should be followed.

15     They would not issue any orders that are -- are not to be obeyed and

16     carried through.  They can issue orders orally or in writing, or they can

17     convey them through communications means, or they can be carried by a

18     person.

19                           [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I think

22     that it would be important to read lines 8, 9, and 10 on page 12934 which

23     would clarify whether it was a written order or a telephone conversation.

24     So the Trial Chamber can then discern from this what it is all about.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that.  That is just a proposal.

Page 19316

 1     And all this is on the record in this case.

 2             Mr. Elderkin, please carry on.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  Very good.  Thank you.

 4                           [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:  And just in relation to that discussion we've just

 6     finished, that we agree that the full testimony of that witness needs to

 7     be read to understand exactly what instructions were issued, but I'm not

 8     going to ask any more questions on that particular subject.

 9        Q.   Mr. Culic, do you know the word "balija," which refers to Bosnian

10     Muslims?

11        A.   I am familiar with it because I still live in the place where

12     there are Muslims and Croats.  This word dates back to ancient times and

13     it is used as a derogatory term among ordinary folks when they talk about

14     Muslims.  They call them "balijas."

15        Q.   Now, in communications that you sent as a brigade commander

16     during the war, did you use the word "balija" when you were referring to

17     Bosnian Muslims?

18        A.   I personally don't use that word.  However, whether it was

19     mentioned in any of the documents, I wouldn't dare to tell you anything

20     with 100 per cent certainty.  Anyway, I would like to say that this word

21     does not exist in my vocabulary because my whole life and throughout my

22     schooling - and I worked in an institution that trained Muslims, Croats,

23     Albanians, all other ethnicities - and for that reason, I cannot tell you

24     for certain, but I can tell you that I, myself, don't use that word.

25        Q.   And the Prosecution would agree with that, sir.  We've looked at

Page 19317

 1     many of your combat reports and other documents that you wrote during the

 2     war and which we have in our evidence collections, and we can't see

 3     anywhere that you used the word.  Does that sound fair?

 4        A.   Well, it does sound.  But I told you that it is 99 per cent true.

 5     Because, as you know, sometimes you don't always draft documents

 6     yourself.  People do it for you.  You only sign it.  Sometimes you don't

 7     have time to read it before signing.

 8        Q.   An officer using the word "balija" in a communication would

 9     convey an unprofessional message, wouldn't he?

10        A.   Possibly.  But all kinds of terms were used during the war.  The

11     other side did not refrain from using various words.  War is a specific

12     phenomenon and I really wouldn't like anyone to experience that.

13        Q.   Would you agree that using the word "balija" would have the

14     effect of dehumanizing the Bosnian Muslims much more so than somebody

15     using more neutral terms such as the "Bosnian Muslim side" or "the

16     enemy"?

17        A.   Perhaps if you look at it today, and if you take everything into

18     account, that would be so.  But you know that during the war there was a

19     lot of belittling and demeaning and insults, et cetera.  Nowadays it

20     wouldn't be politically correct, but at the time it was being used and it

21     was something normal.

22             MR. ELDERKIN:  And can we see Exhibit P2274, please.

23        Q.   It's a short document, sir, and you can see that it was sent by

24     General Tolimir of the VRS Main Staff on the 4th of June, 1995.  You can

25     see that it's sent to some important people here, including the president

Page 19318

 1     of Republika Srpska.  And you can see -- if we go down a little bit in

 2     the English just to see clearer, there's a paragraph -- the first

 3     paragraph, which reads:

 4              "The GS VRS commander and his staff maintain the positions

 5     presented in this telegram regarding your proposals for resolving matters

 6     of additional exchange of prisoners of war with the Ustasha and balija

 7     side."

 8             Do you see that, sir?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   And this kind of language coming from General Tolimir is

11     unprofessional and insulting and derogatory, isn't it?

12        A.   Well, as I told you:  At the time, words were being used that

13     could possibly not be permissible today.  Just as we used to call them

14     balijas, they used to call us Chetniks.  So let me be clear on that.

15     That would be it.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Can

18     Mr. Elderkin show the -- whether this document was signed by

19     General Tolimir or by somebody who authored it, because there's no

20     signature here.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you may deal with that in your

22     re-examination.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  I can confirm, though, Your Honours, there's

24     nothing else except what is on the screen at the moment.  So what you

25     see, as I understand it, is what we have.

Page 19319

 1             And I've finished my cross-examination, Your Honours.

 2             There is one matter I'm asked to mention to you, which is that

 3     for 65 ters 7621 and 7622, P numbers 2878 and 2879 respectively, that are

 4     MFI'd, the excerpts have now been uploaded.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case these two documents will be received

 6     into evidence.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, now it's your time to examine the witness during

 8     your re-examination.  You have the floor.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12             Can we see document D64 that the Prosecutor has used.  Thank you.

13     D264.  I apologise.  That's the document.  I asked for the document that

14     was used by the Prosecutor.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Culic, this document was shown to you by the

17     Prosecutor.  And in the bottom paragraph, which at the moment you cannot

18     see, which is actually at the very bottom of the page, so can we --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please scroll down, please.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Item 5, tasks of unit, it says:

22             [As read] "The Main Staff of the VRS to direct the entire

23     operation engaging the following commanding officers."

24             Now, my question is:  Who is directing the operation, the

25     Main Staff or the officers that they appointed?

Page 19320

 1        A.   The Main Staff.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is:  Did the Main Staff direct all

 3     the operations --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between

 5     questions and answers.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to stop you.  You were overlapping again.

 7     We want to have your full answer on the record.  Please wait, always, and

 8     pause between question and answer.

 9             Now your answer, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The entire combat operation in the

11     area of Bosnia-Herzegovina was directed by the Main Staffs of the VRS

12     through its relevant institutions, organs, commands, and units.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  If any of the officers engaged along the

15     axis mentioned herein, if he were to have some suggestion or some

16     remarks, did he have to pass it on to the commander of the Main Staff, or

17     could he order this to your unit or any other unit?

18        A.   [No interpretation]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please wait.  Please wait.  We want to have

20     everything on the record.  Now your answer, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within the command system, all

22     orders arrived through the command in charge.  Likewise, every order that

23     arrived from the Main Staff would first go to the corps command, then the

24     corps commander would pass on the order to brigade commanders.  That is

25     the essence of the system of command and control that was applicable both

Page 19321

 1     in the VRS and in the former JNA.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  My next question is --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think it's time for our second

 5     break, and you may continue after the break.

 6             We must have our second break now, and we will resume at 1.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Culic, while the forward command post of the Main Staff at

13     Kula existed, did you receive an order signed by any of the officers of

14     the Main Staff who were stationed there at that forward command post of

15     the Main Staff?  Thank you.

16        A.   General, sir, and gentlemen, I can say with full certainty that I

17     never received a written order from the Main Staff save for information

18     which was sent along the information line, and I'm talking about the

19     alert signals.  The only orders I received, I received from my division

20     commander or my corps commander.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I have just been informed that "alert signs" were not

22     recorded properly.

23             Can you repeat:  What alert signs did you receive?

24        A.   Those were air-raid alert signals and nuclear, chemical, and

25     biological alert signals.  Those two signals had priority when it came to

Page 19322

 1     informing, and they were conveyed immediately, independently of who had

 2     issued them.  As for all the other orders, they were conveyed, as I've

 3     already told you, through orders and commands that could be issued in a

 4     written form, they could have been issued verbally, or they could have

 5     been conveyed via the courier service or via appropriate officers.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether an

 7     officer of your command that you would have sent to your 3rd Battalion,

 8     for example, could he change your order issued by yourself to that

 9     battalion - a combat order - and could he have ordered that battalion to

10     act contrary to your original order?  Thank you.

11        A.   [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I stopped you again because you started too

13     early.  We want to have everything on the record.  Now your answer,

14     please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The officers of my command would go

16     to subordinated units daily.  They would go there pursuant to various

17     tasks, and they received those tasks from the commander, meaning me.

18     Those orders dealt with various issues.  An officer who goes to a

19     subordinated unit cannot change an order, which means that my officer

20     could not change my order.  If the order dealt with a certain issue that

21     may have been pointed [as interpreted] by an organ of the command, the

22     officer would convey that to me.  When I accepted the change to that

23     order for the implementation of a task, then I could change the order, I

24     could accept the proposal, or I could alternatively reject the proposal.

25             In conclusion, I would say that things are clear.  The only

Page 19323

 1     person who could change an order or task was me.  Nobody else.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up P2274.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is a telegram dealing with exchanges.  It was shown to you

 6     by the Prosecutor.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, e-court.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Culic, please, you see a telegram on the scene.  The telegram

10     was type-signed by Major-General Zdravko Tolimir.  My question is this:

11     When it comes to this telegram, should it have been signed by somebody

12     before it was sent for coding?  Thank you.

13        A.   General, sir, I know that before the war and in the course of the

14     war, and even after the war, all the mail that was sent in a coded form

15     had to be initialed or signed.  A telegram of this nature containing an

16     order sent by whoever could not be coded without being signed first.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  And now could you please tell us --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we please see the next page in the English,

19     to have the signature block and the stamp on the screen.

20             Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Culic, the author of the telegram, was he duty-bound to sign

24     his name and did he have to indicate the name of the person who typed it

25     if he didn't do it himself?

Page 19324

 1        A.   [No interpretation]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please pause after having received the question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General, sir, everybody who

 4     processed a document that had been drafted and copied in several copies,

 5     be it a combat document or any other type of document, as part of any

 6     office correspondence, has to contain in the left-hand-side corner the

 7     initial of the person who processed such a document as well as the

 8     initials of the person who typed the document and who dispatched it, who

 9     sent it off.  This is how things are done in nearly 99 per cent of the

10     cases.  At the bottom of the document you will find the initials of the

11     person who processed the document; i.e., the person who actually drafted

12     the document.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  Please, we can see a document which

14     doesn't contain either a signature or initials that you talked about.

15     Obviously this was due to the fact that the document is not original.

16     It's not the main departing document.  This is a telegram.  Does a

17     signature have to show on the telegram?

18        A.   No.  This is a document without a signature.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Please, tell us, instead of the person who was

20     supposed to sign the document, could the document be initialed by his

21     deputy by preceding their name with the word "za" or "on behalf of" if he

22     is authorised to do so?  Thank you.

23        A.   Within the system of the organisation and establishment of units,

24     there is a provision which stipulates who has the right to put their

25     signature on what documents.  Moreover, it is also stipulated who can act

Page 19325

 1     on behalf of somebody else and sign certain documents on behalf of

 2     somebody else in the absence of the person who would normally be

 3     authorised to sign them.  All documents must be signed either by the

 4     authorised officer or a person standing in for that officer in his

 5     absence.  And in that case, the document signed in that manner is as

 6     valid as a document signed by the officer who is the order issuer.

 7             The brigade commander is deputised by the commander of the staff

 8     in his -- absence from the unit, and he can sign all the orders drafted

 9     by the commander on his behalf.  Or any other authorised organ in the

10     command or in the institution of the VRS.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.  If you had the original document with the

12     signature or the initials, and if that document was not a telegram, would

13     you be able to establish who signed it and who drafted it, who the author

14     of the document is?

15        A.   If there is a --

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   If there is the original of the document bearing a signature,

18     obviously you can establish who signed it.  But if such a document

19     doesn't exist, there are no guarantees to that effect.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic, for having come to testify in these

21     proceedings.  Thank you for your testimony.  I would like to apologise to

22     you for making you wait for two days due to the situation as it was.  I

23     would like to thank you.  I wish you a happy return home.  May God-speed

24     be with you, and at the same time may these proceedings end in accordance

25     God's wishes.

Page 19326

 1        A.   Thank you, general.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no

 3     further questions for this witness.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

 5             I have a final question in relation to this document we have on

 6     the screen.  Could the two stamps be enlarged.

 7                           Questioned by the Court:

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, Mr. Culic, we agree that there was no

 9     signature near to the signature block.  Now you can see a stamp on the

10     left side in original, and it was translated into English on the right

11     side of the screen.  What can you make out of this stamp?  Was this stamp

12     put on this document on the sending side of the telegram or on the

13     receiver side?

14        A.   Mr. President, it says here that it was received, so the receiver

15     was the one who put his signature on the document.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  His stamp.  The interpreter's correction.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The receiver, did he -- from where did he receive

18     this piece of paper?

19        A.   The receiver could receive such a document for only one place.

20     When you initiate the coding or decoding process, in this case to -- you

21     either type it on an instrument or you inscribed it by hand.  These are

22     the only two ways in which he could receive this document.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Look at the third line.  There we see the word

24     "processed."  How do you understand this word?

25        A.   The person who processed the telegram is the same person who

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 1     received it.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Processed where?

 3        A.   Well, it was processed there, at the encryption office where the

 4     telegram was received.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  You see at least two signatures on

 6     the right side of the stamp.  Can you read the signatures?  Can you read

 7     the name of this person?

 8        A.   As far as I can see, the name is Stanic.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you familiar with a person with this name?

10        A.   I really don't know who that might be.  There are many of them

11     with that name, but I personally don't know him.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this explanation.

13             Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this concludes now your

14     examination here in this trial.  The Chamber, like Mr. Tolimir, we would

15     like to express our apologies that you had to wait several days until the

16     commencement of your testimony.  Thank you for your patience and thank

17     you that you were able to provide us with your knowledge and your

18     expertise in this field.

19             You are now free to return to your normal activities.  Thank you

20     very much, again.  You may now leave the courtroom.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I wish you a pleasant

22     day.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, Mr. Tolimir, are there any matters

25     to deal with at the moment?  Taking into account that we will have a

Page 19328

 1     housekeeping session next week.  I don't see any.

 2             Then I would like to take the opportunity to say some words

 3     because this was the last witness in this trial, witness number 130.  We

 4     were together quite a long time, and I would like to express my gratitude

 5     to the staff.  First and foremost to the Victims and Witnesses Section.

 6     At another occasion I forgot them when I mentioned several units, and

 7     therefore they are the first we have to thank, because without them we

 8     would not be able to have any witnesses in our courtroom.

 9             I would like to thank the security staff for their contribution

10     to making this trial possible.  To the whole courtroom staff, that means

11     the courtroom officer who was and is for a long time already with us; the

12     various court ushers; the court reporter; the interpreters, who do a lot

13     of work and without their work we would not be able to communicate in the

14     courtroom - a specific thanks to them - but also to the translators.

15     Without their work we were not able to read all the documents.

16             I would like to thank the technical staff, the IT people who

17     helped us with the problems we encountered sometimes here in the

18     courtroom.  And I would like to thank the staff of the Chamber, two of

19     them are present in the courtroom, and the staff of the parties - both

20     sides.  And I would like to thank the parties themselves for the good

21     co-operation, for the fruitful co-operation during this trial.

22             I wish you all the best.

23             We adjourn for this week, and we will resume next week on

24     Tuesday, 9.00, in this courtroom, for the housekeeping session.

25             We adjourn.

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 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.24 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day

 3                           of February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.