Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1292

 1                          Monday, 1 October 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Call the case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Case number IT-98-32-T, the Prosecutor versus

 8    Mitar Vasiljevic.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Ms. Bauer.

10                          WITNESS:  WITNESS VG78 [Resumed]

11                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                          Examined by Ms. Bauer: [Continued]

13       Q.   Good morning, Witness VG78.  Please sit back and relax.

14       A.   Good morning.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Don't invite them to sit too far back, because we

16    have to hear them.

17            MS. BAUER:

18       Q.   Going back to the afternoon hours of the 14th of June, 1992, you

19    told this Court that Mitar Vasiljevic singled out three men and brought

20    them back not even an hour later.  Did you see how he singled them out?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Where did he stand?

23       A.   While I was in the house, he went into the house and just pointed,

24    said, "You, you, and you," and singled them out, and they went off with

25    him and he didn't bring them back within the hour.

Page 1293

 1       Q.   You mean he did bring them back within an hour?

 2       A.   Yes.  He was in front of the door and they went into the house

 3    themselves.

 4       Q.   Do you know or do you recall what he singled them out for?

 5       A.   I remember, allegedly, that they were to dig graves and to bury

 6    our dead in the village of Nezuci.

 7       Q.   When you saw him singling these three men out, how far away would

 8    you estimate was he from you?

 9       A.   About five steps away, because it was all in the house, in a room.

10       Q.   Was there anything disguising his face at that time?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Did you see his face?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   A couple of more questions regarding the last time you saw Mitar

15    Vasiljevic that evening.  You said that you exited one house to go to

16    another one, and you told us that the outside was lit.  Were there any

17    lights inside the house you stayed in?

18       A.   No.  Just outside.

19       Q.   When you exited the first house, did you take any of your

20    belongings along?

21       A.   No.  Everything stayed in the house that we were in.

22       Q.   Why didn't you take them along?

23       A.   That's what they ordered, that we should leave our things so that

24    they could search them for weapons.

25       Q.   Did you exit all together or individually?

Page 1294

 1       A.   No.  One by one, one after the other.

 2       Q.   You told this Court that Mitar Vasiljevic was standing closer to

 3    the house where you were supposed to be led into than the one which you

 4    were in.  How far away would you estimate was it from the shed to the

 5    point where he was standing when you saw him?

 6       A.   About 20 steps away; 10, 20.

 7       Q.   You said he was walking around and watching people going from one

 8    house to the other.  At the time you recognised him, did he stand still or

 9    was he walking?

10       A.   Walking.

11       Q.   Was there anything covering his face at that time?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Was he still armed?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Was there any doubt in your mind that the man you recognised as

16    Mitar Vasiljevic that night was the same man you saw during the day?

17       A.   Well, I recognised him straight away.  I saw it was him straight

18    away, looking at his profile.  I didn't see him very well, but walking up

19    and down, I recognised him.

20       Q.   You said that VG101 and you escaped.  When did you make the

21    decision to escape, meaning spontaneously on the spot or earlier?

22       A.   No.  When we were in the house, a person told us that they had

23    raped her and that they had abused her and that our turn would come, and

24    that's why we tried to escape.

25       Q.   You said a person told you.  Could you tell the Court which person

Page 1295

 1    that was?

 2       A.   Well, I don't remember the first and last name, but I know that

 3    she sat together with us, and that's what she told us.

 4       Q.   Who ran to the shed first, VG101 or you?

 5       A.   I was already there at the end -- by the shed near the house.  I

 6    just heard a rustling noise nearby, and I saw VG101 and I went after her,

 7    and that's how we escaped together down by the creek.

 8       Q.   Did you turn towards the town downstream of the creek or upwards

 9    of the creek?

10       A.   No, not towards town but along the creek, away from town.  The

11    direction was away from town.

12       Q.   Did you hear or see anything else coming from the direction of the

13    house that you just escaped from?

14       A.   No.  We went further away and reached a village called "Babin

15    Potok."  We arrived the next day, not that evening but the following day,

16    at around 5.00, going through the woods.

17            MS. BAUER:  Your Honours, I would like to go into a short private

18    session for the introduction of a document.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  What is it, a photo?

20            MS. BAUER:  Well, it has a number of names which would identify

21    this witness.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well, then.  Private session, please.

23            MS. BAUER:  And the document is marked P68.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  You mean it's already an exhibit?

25            MS. BAUER:  It is not an exhibit.  It is only a document marked as

Page 1296

 1    P68.

 2                          [Private session]

 3  [redacted]

 4  [redacted]

 5  [redacted]

 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10  [redacted]

11  [redacted]

12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15  [redacted]

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

23  [redacted]

24  [redacted]

25   [redacted]

Page 1297

 1   [redacted]

 2   [redacted]

 3   [redacted]

 4   [redacted]

 5                          [Open session]

 6            MS. BAUER:  And could I please tender this exhibit as P68?

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  We're now in public session.  Any objection to that,

 8    Mr. Domazet?

 9            MR. DOMAZET:  No, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you very much.  Exhibit P68, and it is under

11    seal.

12            MS. BAUER:  Thank you, VG78.  I have no further questions.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet.

14                          Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:

15       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, madam.

16       A.   Good morning.

17       Q.   On the 14th of June, 1992, you started out from your village; is

18    that right?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Do you remember what day of the week it was?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Do you remember, at the place called "Greben," that you met and

23    were accompanied for a time by a Serb?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   If I were to tell you the name, "Mico Lipovac," does that ring a

Page 1298

 1    bell?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   During your journey to Visegrad, did anybody from your column from

 4    Koritnik give up and decide not to go further?

 5       A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember anybody staying behind.

 6       Q.   Your sister went with you; is that right?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Were you ever separated throughout that journey?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   So you went together all the time and you were together at all the

11    places that you spoke about; is that right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   When you came to Visegrad and came up to the hotel that you refer

14    to as the new hotel --

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   -- who did you see first of the Serbs who were there?

17       A.   I recognised Mitar Vasiljevic and several -- and there were

18    several others.  I knew them by sight, but I didn't know who they were

19    exactly.  I didn't know their first and last names.

20       Q.   So he was already in front of the hotel when you appeared with the

21    group from Koritnik, is that right, and he was with some other people as

22    well?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Do you remember that in 1995 you gave a statement in Visoko to the

25    MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 1299

 1       A.   Yes, I do.

 2       Q.   That was at the beginning of the year sometime, less than three

 3    years after the event; is that right?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Did you tell them the whole truth about what had happened that day

 6    on that occasion?

 7       A.   I think I talked about it.  There wasn't much time, and as the

 8    days went by and the years went by, you can't remember everything, you

 9    know, what happened and how it happened.

10       Q.   Yes.  As you gave the statement at the beginning of 1995, and you

11    yourself state that your memory and recollections were better then than

12    they were later on -- would you say that was true?  Would you agree with

13    that?

14       A.   Well, I had the same recollection.  Maybe I didn't remember all

15    the details and points, but I put them in the second statement.

16       Q.   Yes, I understand.  You say -- what you're saying is that in the

17    second statement that you gave to the investigators, you added something

18    that you had recollected later on.

19       A.   Yes, that's right, because I couldn't think of everything at the

20    time, couldn't remember everything at the time.

21       Q.   What I'm asking you now is:  What you remembered at the time and

22    recounted was fresh in your mind, and you were probably telling the truth

23    about what had happened at that time; is that right?

24       A.   Yes.  I told the truth in the first statement and I told the truth

25    in the second statement, as far as I knew.

Page 1300

 1       Q.   Do you recall having said in the first statement which you gave in

 2    January 1995, in Visoko, that, and I quote:

 3            "In front of the Red Cross, in the Mahala settlement, Mitar took

 4    us off, whose surname I don't know, but he lived in the village of

 5    Pozdercici, and he was with two other Chetniks at the time."

 6       A.   Yes.  I know that he was from Prelovo.  Whether he lived there or

 7    not, or somewhere in town, I don't know, but I did know him and I knew his

 8    face.  He was well known to me.  I would see him around town.  He would be

 9    a passerby that I would recognise.

10       Q.   But let me remind you.  You said on the occasion:  "A certain

11    Mitar," to quote you, "whose surname I do not know."  So in 1995 you

12    stated that you did not know his surname, whereas in your later statement,

13    in the subsequent statement, given after he was arrested, you gave us the

14    surname Vasiljevic.

15       A.   Yes, because I couldn't remember his surname, and then I

16    remembered what his surname was.

17       Q.   If I understand you correctly, you said -- the name you gave at

18    the MUP at the time was just Mitar, because you couldn't recall his

19    surname; is that right?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   But I assume that you knew what he looked like, because much less

22    time had elapsed.  Did you hear my question, madam?

23       A.   No.  Could you repeat it, please?

24       Q.   You couldn't remember the surname, but I assume you knew what he

25    looked like very well, judging by your description, because it was only

Page 1301

 1    two and a half years after the event; is that right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Do you remember that on that occasion, you said that Mitar,

 4    without a surname, you say, and I quote:

 5            "Mitar was wearing a civilian dress with a sajkaca or cap on his

 6    head, whereas his escorts, the people with him, had camouflage uniforms on

 7    and were armed with rifles."

 8       A.   Well, I remembered later on, I remembered that he had a hat and

 9    coat on.  First of all, I thought he had a hat and coat on, and then I

10    thought he -- remembered he had a camouflage uniform on.

11       Q.   Do you remember having made this statement, regardless of the fact

12    that you remembered later details for the second statement?  Is this what

13    you said to the MUP in 1995?

14       A.   Well, I don't remember exactly.  I can't remember.

15       Q.   If we were to show you the statement, could you take a look at the

16    statement to see if it is indeed your own statement with your signature at

17    the bottom.

18       A.   Yes, I can have a look.

19       Q.   You said a moment ago that you remembered later that he was

20    wearing a camouflage uniform.  Do you mean -- are you referring to the

21    statement you gave to the investigator of The Hague Tribunal?

22       A.   Yes.  I gave a statement then and said that he was wearing a coat

23    and hat on his head and that he had the multicoloured uniform type of

24    clothing.

25       Q.   That was the statement you gave this year, at the beginning of

Page 1302

 1    this year; is that right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   What would you say was correct?  Was he wearing civilian clothing

 4    with a sajkaca or a type of hat on his head, as you said in 1995, or was

 5    he wearing a coat with a multicoloured uniform and hat, as you stated this

 6    year?

 7       A.   With a coat and hat on his head and a uniformed suit,

 8    multicoloured.

 9       Q.   Do you remember, when you testified here before the Court at the

10    beginning, having stated that he had an SMB, that is, an olive-grey

11    uniform?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   So according to you, he was wearing a multicoloured uniform or

14    what is commonly referred to as a camouflage uniform; is that what you had

15    in mind?

16       A.   Yes, the camouflage multicoloured clothing.

17       Q.   Can you remember today, as regards the statement that you gave to

18    MUP in 1995, what you stated about the event itself on that night, the

19    event involving the fire and the killing of your fellow villagers?

20       A.   I may have left out some things and perhaps added something else

21    here, but I don't think that there is any significant difference between

22    the two.

23       Q.   I will try to remind you of that statement to refresh your memory,

24    because there is a difference concerning the fact that in that statement

25    concerning the event when you and your sister fled, you failed to mention

Page 1303

 1    the presence of Mitar, whom on that day you had seen and told us about

 2    what he was doing.  I will quote your statement, and I should like you to

 3    confirm whether that indeed was your statement and whether it was

 4    correct.  You said that:

 5            "In the evening, around 23.30, Milan Lukic arrived in the house

 6    wearing a camouflage uniform.  I know him from the primary school, and I

 7    heard that before the aggression he had worked in Obrenovac.  He was

 8    accompanied by five or six armed Chetniks, including a young boy aged 15

 9    who provoked us.  And when a child started to cry, he took out a knife and

10    he said, 'Bring it over so that I can slaughter him.'  Lukic ordered us to

11    go over to the adjacent house and leave our belongings there because

12    allegedly they wanted to inspect our belongings and search them for

13    weapons.  So one by one we went to this other house, which was some 20

14    metres away from this one.  As we were crossing over, me and my sister

15    escaped and hid behind a shed."

16            And then you went on to enumerate the persons who were with you,

17    but you didn't mention that on that night you saw -- or you never

18    mentioned the presence of the man whom you referred to as "Mitar," that

19    is, the same person whom you had seen in front of the hotel that

20    afternoon.

21       A.   As far as I remember, I didn't state that Milan Lukic entered the

22    house that particular night because I didn't see him.  I don't know

23    whether he was outside.  But as for Mitar Vasiljevic, I saw him in front

24    of the door as I was trying to escape.  I saw his profile and I recognised

25    him as being Mitar Vasiljevic.  As for Milan Lukic, he did not go into the

Page 1304

 1    house that particular night, but in the morning.  As for this young boy

 2    whom they wanted to slaughter, that is true, but that happened during the

 3    day, not during the night.  That is what I stated, as far as I can

 4    remember now.

 5       Q.   What was it that happened during the day, according to you?  Could

 6    you please repeat?

 7       A.   That happened around 1.00 or 2.00 p.m., when Mitar [as

 8    interpreted] Lukic took out a knife to slaughter a young boy.  But Milan

 9    Lukic did not slaughter him but he grabbed him, and that is what I

10    remember very well.  It was not in the evening that Milan Lukic arrived in

11    the house, because that night there was no light in the house.  There was

12    only some light outside the house.  And we were leaving the house one by

13    one at that time.  And that is, I believe, what I stated.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Just a moment, Mr. Domazet.  Madam, there's a problem

15    when the two of you, counsel and yourself, are speaking the same

16    language.  The interpretation of your answers into the English and French

17    language for us is difficult where you answer the question straight away.

18    If you pause slightly before you answer a question, the interpreters will

19    be able to keep up with you.  So will you please pause before you answer

20    Mr. Domazet's questions.

21            Yes, Mr. Domazet.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Do I understand you, madam, when you say that Milan Lukic never

25    entered the house in the evening?

Page 1305












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1306

1       A.   Yes, I never saw him, but he did come into the house around 1.00

 2    or 2.00 p.m.  But I was so afraid, I didn't dare look at the clock, so I

 3    didn't know when people were coming in or going out.  But he personally

 4    came into the house.  He wanted us to give him gold and money.  He told us

 5    that if we didn't give him those, that he would cut off fingers or ears

 6    and things like that.  So we gave him the gold and the money, and they

 7    took everything away.

 8       Q.   Yes.  But that took place in the afternoon?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   However, your statement concerned the event which took place in

11    the evening, the event involving the whole group which was made to go from

12    one house to another house.

13       A.   I'm not talking about the event which took place in the afternoon

14    hours.

15       Q.   Would you please let me finish, madam, and then proceed with your

16    question [as interpreted].  You stated that in the evening, around 11.30,

17    that Milan Lukic came, wearing a camouflage uniform, together with five or

18    six other uniformed Chetniks wearing camouflage uniforms and weapons, and

19    you stated that the group included a young man, age 15, who provoked you

20    in the way that I described a moment ago.  But you said now that that was

21    what Lukic did in the afternoon.  So you were describing the event which

22    took place in the evening and everything else that took place at that

23    time.  Except for Milan Lukic and this young Chetnik, you didn't recognise

24    anyone else.  In particular, you didn't say that the individual whom you

25    had seen on that day as being Mitar, that he was there together with them

Page 1307

 1    on that night.  So that is the difference that I'm talking about in your

 2    statements.  Could you give us an explanation for that?

 3       A.   As I was leaving the house when they came to take us over to the

 4    second house, he was standing in front of the door with a man with a

 5    moustache whom I didn't know.  And as people were moving towards this

 6    other house, they were following them, they were escorting them, and there

 7    was a smaller group of us who remained in the first house.  And it was at

 8    that moment that I managed to escape.  And I recognised him.  I saw him

 9    standing together with Milan and others.  But I didn't see him in front of

10    the door as I was going -- as I was getting out of the house, I didn't see

11    that.  I just saw an individual with a moustache and a rifle.  And at that

12    time, we were leaving the house one by one.  We were not -- we didn't

13    leave the house together, but one after the other.

14       Q.   Yes, I understand that, madam.  I understand that your testimony

15    is that you did not see him in front of the house.  However, in the

16    statement that you gave to the MUP, while describing this particular

17    event, it seems that you didn't see him at all at that time.  And my

18    question is:  Why didn't you mention him when you gave that statement,

19    particularly in view of the fact that your memory was much more fresh at

20    that time than later on, than after his arrest?

21       A.   Well, it was difficult for me to remember everything.  The taking

22    of the statement didn't last very long, some 10 or 15 minutes, and it

23    happened in 1995 and it was impossible for me to remember everything.

24       Q.   Would you be able to mark the spot where you, as you told us

25    today, saw the individual whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic, on the

Page 1308

 1    photograph, indicating the relevant location?

 2       A.   Well, I can have a look at the photograph, but it happened a long

 3    time ago.  A lot of things have changed.  I'm not sure I would be able to

 4    recognise it.

 5            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission, I

 6    should like to show the witness the photograph which is in evidence.  It

 7    is a Prosecution exhibit, and some witnesses have already used this

 8    photograph in their evidence.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  It may be that we can get a clean copy of it.

10            Is there one available, Ms. Bauer?

11            What's the number of it?

12            MS. BAUER:  Exactly.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  What's the number of it, Mr. Domazet?

14            MR. DOMAZET:  17.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  17 --

16            MR. DOMAZET:  3.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  3.

18            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  17.3.  Well, the witness is being shown a clean copy

20    of it, so that you had better mark it, and it will be put on the ELMO,

21    please.

22            MS. BAUER:  Do you require black and white copies?  I have more of

23    them.

24            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes.  Yours is better.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  The colour on the ELMO has gone right out today.

Page 1309

 1    They've all got green roofs.

 2            You proceed, Mr. Domazet.

 3            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Madam, do you recognise the photograph, indicating the house where

 5    you were and the house where you were taken to, and could you indicate the

 6    two on the ELMO?  First of all, the house where you were on that night.

 7       A.   No, I can't remember this.  I mean, it was all so long ago.  But I

 8    think that it would have been the one without the roof, and then we went

 9    over there to Adem's house, I believe it was.

10       Q.   Do you recognise the house where you were up until the time when

11    Milan Lukic came with his group and made you go over to this other house?

12       A.   I think this one here.

13       Q.   Could you indicate with the pointer on the ELMO so that everybody

14    can see.

15       A.   I believe it was this one, this house here, that they were

16    crossing.

17       Q.   Very well.  Would you please mark it with number "1."  Could you

18    mark the house with number "1" and circle it.  You can put it on the

19    house, yes.

20       A.   [Marks]

21       Q.   And could you now identify the house where you were on that

22    night.

23       A.   [Indicates]

24       Q.   If that is the house in question, would you please mark it with

25    number "2."

Page 1310

 1       A.   [Marks]

 2       Q.   Could you now mark the location where you said you had seen the

 3    individual whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic.

 4       A.   No.  No.  I just cannot find my bearings here.  No.

 5       Q.   Could you tell us what was the distance between that individual

 6    and the house that you marked with number "1" at the moment when you saw

 7    him?

 8       A.   I'm sorry.  I didn't hear your question.  I don't understand your

 9    question.

10       Q.   Can you remember how far that individual was from the house which

11    you marked with number "1," the Omeragic house, at the moment you saw him?

12       A.   He was standing in front of the door of that house, but I don't

13    remember exactly how far it was.  I didn't measure the distance.  I don't

14    know.  He was next to this other house, and that is where I saw him.

15       Q.   Could you see the spot where you and your sister hid when you

16    escaped on this photograph?

17       A.   As far as I can remember, we left the house --

18       Q.   Could you please put it back on the ELMO and indicate it there.

19       A.   There was a shed here, and it was from this side of the house that

20    we went and headed towards the creek, and from there we went on down

21    towards the town.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet, there's a problem every time you ask the

23    witness to point to something on the photograph.  She leans right over and

24    then loses the distortion of her face.  So the audiovisual director is

25    very concerned that, if we can, we should ask her to mark things whilst

Page 1311

 1    the photograph is in front of her, but then she can show it to you with

 2    the pointer once it's been put back onto the ELMO.

 3            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

 4       Q.   Madam, would you please take the photograph and put it in front of

 5    you.  And would you now look carefully at the photograph to see whether

 6    you can see the spot where you and your sister were hiding.  And if you

 7    can please mark that spot, if you can, with number "3" and encircle it.

 8    But please do not move from your spot here, and then you will give the

 9    marked photograph to the usher.

10       A.   I remember very well that there was a creek there, but I was so

11    afraid.  I don't know exactly where it was that we were hiding, because we

12    left this spot here and headed off towards the town.  But the fear was so

13    great.  We were trying to leave the place, leave this hellish place as

14    soon as possible.  It's not that we were hiding there.  We left the place

15    immediately and went further.

16       Q.   Yes.  You moved on from there.  But as far as I can understand,

17    your sister and yourself at one point in time took shelter behind a shed

18    and that you were able to see some individuals there and that it was after

19    that that you escaped.

20       A.   No, I don't remember that.  After we escaped and after we reached

21    the creek, I no longer saw anyone.  That is what I believe I stated.  We

22    jumped over some fences.  I remember the fences and I remember some very

23    high grass.  We managed to reach the main road leading to Babin Potok and

24    we spent the whole night walking around the area, around Babin Potok.  We

25    couldn't get our bearings, and it was only in the following morning that

Page 1312

 1    we were able to actually reach the village of Babin Potok.  And we stayed

 2    there for a while, but I don't know who was there and who remained

 3    behind.  I wasn't able to see what happened after that.

 4       Q.   Yes, but today you have stated that after you left the house and

 5    as you were moving along, you were able to see the profile of the person

 6    whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic.

 7       A.   Yes.  When I got out of the house and when I was near the shed, as

 8    I was about to move over to the other house, to the first house, I went

 9    back when I heard that VG101 fell down next to me, and I followed her, and

10    that is how I escaped, so I could no longer see what was going on.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  The document that she has been marking, do you want

12    that put into evidence?

13            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes, Your Honour, I would like to tender it in

14    evidence as an exhibit.  The number "1" indicates the house to which,

15    according to her, people were brought to -- brought from the house which

16    she marked with number "2."  There are no other markings on the

17    photograph, since the witness is unable to provide any further details.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Any objection, Ms. Bauer?

19            MS. BAUER:  No objections.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  Exhibit D3.  You may proceed, Mr. Domazet.

21            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   Madam, so you have identified this person as Mitar Vasiljevic

23    today, and you saw his profile at the moment you and your sister escaped;

24    am I correct?

25       A.   Yes, as I was going towards this house where the people who were

Page 1313

 1    eventually burnt alive were.  At that point in time, we turned off, we

 2    fled towards the creek.  We tried to leave the area as quickly as

 3    possible.  We didn't want to linger there.

 4       Q.   I should like to ask you a couple of questions concerning your

 5    statement that on that afternoon, that is, after you reached the first

 6    house, the individual whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic personally

 7    selected several people to bury some dead bodies in the village of

 8    Nezuci.

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   You didn't speak of that in your statements, neither in the

11    statement that you gave to the MUP, nor in the one that you gave to the

12    investigator.  How is it that you remembered this particular detail today?

13       A.   Well, I remembered this particular detail because I have been

14    thinking about this and I've been trying to remember all of the details,

15    and I just remembered that he came to the house and he took out three

16    individuals from the house, and that he returned them after a while,

17    because they personally told us after they had come back that it was Mitar

18    Vasiljevic personally who had taken them there and that he was standing

19    behind them as they were burying the dead.  They were pale with fear, and

20    I remember one person who started to cry.  And I asked him why he was

21    crying, what had happened, and he said, "It's terrible.  I don't want to

22    talk about it."  And that's how it happened.

23       Q.   Was that immediately after he had put you up in that house, as you

24    stated?

25       A.   Yes.  I cannot recall exactly the time.  One hour or half an hour

Page 1314

 1    maybe.  The fear was so great.

 2       Q.   Was he accompanied by any other Serb at that time?

 3       A.   They were standing in front of the door, they didn't enter the

 4    house, and Milan entered the house.

 5       Q.   How many were they, the people who you said were standing in front

 6    of the house?

 7       A.   I didn't count them.  I was afraid.

 8       Q.   Did you see them?

 9       A.   Yes, I saw them.  There were quite a lot of them.  On one occasion

10    when I went out into the hall, I saw Milan Lukic take up a knife to

11    slaughter Almir, and I saw that there were a lot of them walking up and

12    down in front of the door.  And I saw the boy had -- he was about 16.  I

13    was mostly in the kitchen and in the room, but I didn't go out, and that

14    evening, before they came -- that evening, before they came to transfer us

15    to the other house.

16       Q.   I asked you, madam, at the point where you say Mitar Vasiljevic

17    came into the house to select a few men to go and bury the dead.  Focus on

18    that, please.  And I asked you whether there were others, and you said,

19    yes, in front of the house.  And I asked whether you had seen them.  Are

20    you now describing to us the people that you had seen?

21       A.   Yes, but they didn't enter the house.  Only Mitar Vasiljevic

22    entered the house.  They stayed in front of the door, the entrance to the

23    house.

24       Q.   Yes.  But you mention Milan Lukic and a young person.  Were they

25    there then?

Page 1315

 1       A.   They were in front of the door, not inside.

 2       Q.   When you say, madam, that there were a lot of them, several of

 3    them, but that you can't say exactly how many, would you say that there

 4    were two or three of them or five or six of them?  What would you say

 5    corresponded to the situation; five or six or two or three?

 6       A.   There were about ten of them, not even five, six.  There were ten.

 7       Q.   When the person whom you have identified as Mitar Vasiljevic came

 8    back and brought the others back, was he alone or was he accompanied by

 9    the same people you mentioned a moment ago?

10       A.   I don't understand your question, really.  I apologise.

11       Q.   You said that about an hour later, the people who were taken off

12    to bury the dead were returned and that the same person returned them whom

13    you had identified as Mitar Vasiljevic.  Now, did he come back himself

14    alone or with a group of men you mentioned earlier on?

15       A.   Mitar Vasiljevic personally brought them back, and they told us

16    that the others were with them.  And then they came into the house and sat

17    down.  He brought them back.  They buried the dead and brought the men

18    back.

19       Q.   Yes, but what I'm asking you is this:  Were they accompanied by

20    the same group of people who were there and accompanied them when the men

21    were taking off?

22       A.   I don't know.  I don't know who accompanied them when they came

23    back.  But I know that they just mentioned that Mitar Vasiljevic had taken

24    them away and brought them back, and that there were others too, and that

25    they stood around, guarding over them, until they had buried all the dead.

Page 1316

 1       Q.   When you say, madam, that they told us that Mitar Vasiljevic had

 2    driven them, did they tell you that that person drove them in a car?  Were

 3    they taken off in a car; is that what you mean?

 4       A.   Yes, in a car.  They were taken by car.

 5       Q.   Did they tell you that he personally drove them?

 6       A.   Yes.  Because they were older people, they knew him well.  It was

 7    the older generation.

 8       Q.   So they said that Mitar Vasiljevic had driven them away and that

 9    they knew him very well; is that right?

10       A.   Yes, they knew Mitar Vasiljevic, and there was some other people

11    with them whom they also knew.  But as they were afraid, one man started

12    to cry and so on.

13       Q.   Did they perhaps tell you what kind of vehicle it was?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Do you remember that on that day, while you were still in front of

16    the new hotel in Visegrad, that Serb policemen who were there singled out

17    some people also to take them to bury some dead?

18       A.   I apologise.  Do you mean in front of the hotel?

19       Q.   Yes.  While you were in front of the new hotel in Visegrad, before

20    you set off for the Mahala.

21       A.   All I remember is that a man was taken off to the bridge.  There

22    was a dog and they asked whose it was, and he said it was his, and they

23    ordered him to take the dog away and throw him over the bridge.  But I

24    don't remember that they singled anybody out.  I don't remember that.  All

25    I remember is the incident with the dog.

Page 1317

 1       Q.   So you don't remember that while standing in front of the new

 2    hotel, that they singled out anybody then, singled out people to bury the

 3    dead; you don't remember that?

 4       A.   No, no, I don't.  That happened in the Mahala, when we came to the

 5    house, but not in front of the new hotel, no.

 6       Q.   Are you sure that the people didn't go back up there and that they

 7    had left from the new hotel to the Nezuci place?

 8       A.   They personally came back to the house, the ones that went to bury

 9    the dead in Nezuci, in the village of Nezuci.  I personally saw them come

10    to the house, come inside and sit down.

11       Q.   Yes, but my question is:  Are you sure that they left from that

12    house and not perhaps from the new hotel in Visegrad?

13       A.   Yes, I'm sure.  I'm sure they went from that house.

14       Q.   When you started out towards the Mahala, who escorted you, if

15    anybody?

16       A.   Mitar Vasiljevic and the people who were with him came in front of

17    the door and we were put up in two houses.  In one house there was Jusuf

18    Memic and the Delija family.  Ajnija was her name.  We were there in two

19    houses.  I don't remember her husband's name.  The third house was owned

20    by a man called Adem.  But mostly we were in Jusuf Memic's house.

21       Q.   Yes, but what I'm asking you is this:  Mitar Vasiljevic and some

22    others accompanied you throughout the trip from the hotel to those houses;

23    is that right?

24       A.   Yes.  He was accompanied by two men, not more.  There were two of

25    them.

Page 1318

 1       Q.   Did they walk behind you, in front of you, or beside you?

 2       A.   They were beside us, in front of us, behind us.

 3       Q.   Let me just remind you of a portion of your statement given to the

 4    OTP investigator.  You described the event in the following way:  You said

 5    that at the moment you arrived, the last buses had left Visegrad, that,

 6    "There were policemen, Serb policemen, in the square who were discussing

 7    what to do with us.  Some of them suggested that we should be sent to the

 8    Bikavac hotel; others suggested that we should go to the Mahala district,

 9    where there were lots of empty Muslim houses.  The discussion ended by

10    them taking a decision that we should go to the Mahala settlement on foot

11    and to Pionirska Street.  That's what they decided.  Nobody directed us or

12    took us to the settlement itself.  However, we all knew where that street

13    was, and we hurried because it was already raining and we were drenched

14    and we wanted to change our clothes.  We went into an empty house in the

15    street.  I heard someone mention the name of the owner of the house, but I

16    don't remember the name, unfortunately."

17            Do you remember having said that in the statement you gave at the

18    beginning of this year to the OTP investigator?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Is that statement different to your statement today, your

21    testimony today?

22       A.   Yes, it is a little different, but I couldn't remember, and I said

23    a moment ago that I recalled what happened and that we did not come to the

24    Mahala district in front of Jusuf Memic's house alone.  I remember them

25    saying, "You can go into any of the houses, because they're all empty, all

Page 1319












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1320

 1    the Muslim houses."  But the buses had already left.  We were to arrive

 2    there by 12.00 and to go to Kladanj.  We left home at 6.00.

 3       Q.   Do you recognise what I quoted to be the statement you gave to the

 4    OTP investigator?

 5       A.   I don't understand what you mean.

 6       Q.   What I have just read out from your statement to the investigator,

 7    do you acknowledge that you did indeed tell the OTP investigator what I

 8    read out?

 9       A.   I said that we were escorted to the Mahala.

10       Q.   Had you said that, they would probably have recorded it in your

11    statement, because the statement was read back to you and you signed it.

12    But it says here that nobody directed you, that nobody escorted or

13    accompanied you, and that you yourselves went off alone and went into one

14    of the empty houses.

15       A.   Yes, but I said that I couldn't remember everything, all the

16    details, until I sat down to think about it, and then I started

17    remembering.

18       Q.   Can I take your answer to mean that you did not recollect that in

19    January this year when you gave the statement to the investigator, but

20    that you have since remembered it now, that you remembered it and

21    testified to it now?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   In the statement you gave to the investigator, after describing

24    how you entered the two houses and where you all where, you said:

25            "Then Mitar Vasiljevic and four Serbs came to the house, and [redacted]

Page 1321

 1    [redacted], was handed a message from them.  It

 2    was a piece of paper with several sentences written on it."

 3            Is that correct or is it correct that Mitar Vasiljevic came with

 4    you, as you describe, and told you which house to go into?

 5       A.   Yes.  He told us which house to go into, and first he singled out

 6    these three people.  And then half an hour or an hour later, 30 minutes

 7    perhaps, I heard from a woman.  I heard her saying, "Mitar Vasiljevic is

 8    asking somebody to come out and give a piece of paper for security, for

 9    safety reasons," and if anybody were to turn up, we were to show this

10    piece of paper or to call him.  I didn't see this piece of paper.  Whether

11    Osman went out or Meho, I can't remember.  I don't remember who went out

12    to collect this piece of paper, but someone did, and Mitar gave that

13    person this piece of paper and said that if anybody came to mistreat us,

14    we should just contact him and there would be no problem.  That's what I

15    remember happening.

16       Q.   So others told you about that, the other people who were with you;

17    is that right?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   They said that Mitar had given one of them a piece of paper like

20    that?

21       A.   That's right.

22       Q.   But you didn't actually see this taking place, did you?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   You said today that a person slapped someone.  Can you be more

25    specific and describe that incident for us, please.

Page 1322

 1       A.   Yes.  It was in front of the hotel.  He slapped a person.  She had

 2    said something.  And she wasn't quite normal.  I don't remember what she

 3    said, but he came up to her and slapped her.  And her mother said to her

 4    [as interpreted], "Don't do that.  She doesn't know what she is doing."

 5    He said, "What do you mean she doesn't know what she is doing?"  He added

 6    something else, but I couldn't understand what he was saying.  But that's

 7    what I heard and that's what happened.

 8       Q.   So this took place in front of the hotel, did it?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And the person who did that you have said was Mitar Vasiljevic; is

11    that right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   That person, when you saw them the first time, in addition to your

14    description of the events, was there any characteristic trait that you

15    noticed on that person?

16       A.   No.  He was wearing a hat and coat and that uniform type of

17    multicoloured clothing.

18       Q.   Did he have a moustache or a beard?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Did you happen to hear anybody who was also called Mitar in

21    Visegrad, anybody else whose name was Mitar in Visegrad?

22       A.   No, I don't remember.

23       Q.   You don't remember that other people said that there was a person

24    called Mitar?

25       A.   No.

Page 1323

 1       Q.   The event you have just described, that is to say, the slapping of

 2    this child in front of the hotel, you never described that event either in

 3    your statement to the investigator or to the MUP.

 4       A.   That's right, but I didn't say "child."  I said it was a woman, a

 5    female person.  She was about 35 years old, this female.

 6       Q.   Very well.  Maybe I misunderstood you.  You said that she was a

 7    little retarded, so I took it to be a child.  But anyway, you don't make

 8    any mention of that fact either to the investigator or the MUP; is that

 9    right?

10       A.   Yes, that's right.

11       Q.   Can you tell us why, how come you didn't remember that incident

12    earlier and recount it?

13       A.   Well, I did remember it, but we didn't have time to go into all

14    that.  I didn't have time to recount all that.  I didn't have two, three,

15    four hours.  It was always for a brief space of time.  I would discuss it

16    briefly.

17       Q.   In the place where you lived this year and last year, where you've

18    been living, did you have occasion to see on television the arrest of

19    Mitar Vasiljevic?  Did you learn that he had been arrested and was in The

20    Hague on television?

21       A.   No, I didn't see him on television, but I heard about it, but I

22    didn't see it.

23       Q.   Do you watch television at all?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   On Bosnia-Herzegovina television, is there a programme which is

Page 1324

 1    called "The Hague Chronicle" once a week?

 2       A.   Yes, but I don't have time to watch it.  I'm always working

 3    outside.

 4       Q.   So you claim that you have never seen that programme, nor that you

 5    ever saw him on the television screen?

 6       A.   No, I don't remember seeing it.

 7       Q.   Were there articles written about it in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8       A.   No, I don't know, I don't remember.  I don't buy newspapers and I

 9    don't read newspapers because I live in the village.  I don't work in a

10    firm or company.  I don't go to work and buy a newspaper on my way to work

11    and things like that.

12       Q.   Well, can you tell me how you came to learn of his arrest and

13    when?

14       A.   Well, I heard of it.  I don't know exactly when I heard about it.

15    And I learned about it when the people from The Hague Tribunal came for me

16    to give a statement to them.  I gave my statement, and then -- and from

17    that time onwards, I knew that he had been captured.

18       Q.   Yes.  But you gave your statement in January this year, and he was

19    arrested a long time ago, a year ago.  Do you remember that?

20       A.   No, I don't.

21       Q.   Do you remember what I read to you a moment ago: that you told the

22    OTP investigators that in front of the hotel, Serb policemen and not the

23    individual you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic spoke about whether --

24    discussed whether you should go to Bikavac or Mahala?

25       A.   Yes, it was the Serb police.  As far as I remember, that's what I

Page 1325

 1    said.  And Mitar Vasiljevic was also there with his group of men, the

 2    group of men he led, him, Mitar Vasiljevic.  But, yes, the Serb police

 3    were there too, but I didn't know any of them.  I knew them by sight, of

 4    course, yes, but I knew -- but I didn't know their names, first and last

 5    names.

 6       Q.   When you say you didn't know their first and last names, whom do

 7    you mean; the Serb policemen?

 8       A.   Yes, I mean the Serb policemen's names.

 9       Q.   My question was whether what you said in your statement is

10    correct, that is to say, that they discussed this point with you, with the

11    group, whether you should go to Bikavac or Mahala, that they were

12    discussing this and not the person whom you identified today as Mitar

13    Vasiljevic.  You don't mention him then?

14       A.   Yes, them and Mitar Vasiljevic, they were discussing this point

15    amongst themselves, discussing where to send us.

16       Q.   Was that before or after what you said Mitar spoke about on that

17    occasion?  Was it before, after, or at the same time?

18       A.   As soon as we came to the hotel, they were discussing this.  They

19    said that the buses had left, that we didn't have anywhere to go, and

20    where could we spend the night, because we were first in order the next

21    morning to go.  That's what they were saying.

22       Q.   Yes, that's what you said then.  But you said that you yourselves

23    decided to go to the Mahala and that you yourselves went off in the

24    direction of Mahala.

25       A.   Yes, that's right.  I couldn't remember at the time.  But since

Page 1326

 1    then, I've remembered, so that's how it was.

 2       Q.   Madam, would you take a look at the January 1995 statement that

 3    you gave to the Security Services Centre in Visoko.  Is that your

 4    statement, in fact, and is it your signature on your statement?

 5       A.   Yes, I'll take a look, gladly.

 6            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I have the witness

 7    shown that statement?

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Do we have it?

 9            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes, I think that you have.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  I don't.  I think the OTP has got it, if anybody's

11    got it.

12            MS. BAUER:  Sorry, I would have to check.  I have an English copy,

13    but I'll check whether I have a B/C/S copy.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  Does it have a number?

15            MS. BAUER:  A number?

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, a number.

17            MS. BAUER:  It doesn't.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  All right.  Then we won't have it.  Are you able to

19    identify that by any description, a date or something?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the date.  It is mine; that is

21    to say, the signature is mine, the name and surname.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Bauer, does it have a date?

23            MS. BAUER:  Yes.  It is dated the 24th of January, 1995.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.

25            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I suggest that the

Page 1327

 1    witness reads through the statement carefully.  As we're coming up to a

 2    break, perhaps it would be a good idea to do this during the break, she

 3    can do this during the break, and then she can tell us, when we reconvene,

 4    whether it is indeed the statement she gave and signed.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  She's already said it's got her signature on it.  But

 6    if you want her to check it through, that's all right.  Have you got

 7    something else to go on with until we adjourn?

 8            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Your Honour, she could look

 9    through the statement, read through it during the break, and then

10    afterwards she could tell us whether there is anything that is not correct

11    in the statement and why it is in the statement if that is so.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, Mr. Domazet, that, if I may say so, is not a

13    very satisfactory way of cross-examination.  If you want to take her to a

14    particular part of it, by all means do so.  It's almost 11.00, so we'll

15    give her the opportunity of reading it.  But I don't think that that's

16    going to help us very much unless you direct her attention to particular

17    matters that you want to have determined either to have been true or

18    untrue.

19            We'll adjourn now.  We'll resume at 11.30.

20                          --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

21                          --- On resuming at 11.27 a.m.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet.

23            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24       Q.   Did you have an opportunity to read this statement during the

25    break?

Page 1328

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   This is your statement that you gave and that you signed on the

 3    24th of January, 1995?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Did you notice the part where you speak about having seen for the

 6    first time, in front of the Red Cross building, the person by the name of

 7    Mitar, whose last name you said you did not know, who was dressed in

 8    civilian clothes with a sajkaca hat on his head and that he was unarmed?

 9       A.   Yes.  It is stated here in my statement.

10       Q.   Could you tell us -- could you tell the Court the difference

11    between sajkaca, a Serbian traditional hat, and a regular hat?

12       A.   A regular -- he had a very large hat on his head, whereas

13    a sajkaca, as far as I remember, is closer to the head and it has

14    something on the front part, some kind of sign.

15       Q.   Would it be correct for me to say that sajkaca doesn't have any

16    rim, unlike a hat, which does have a rim, and the hat, the particular hat

17    that you described, had an especially large rim?

18       A.   Yes.  Yes.  He had a very large hat with a rim.

19       Q.   Sajkaca is a typical cap, a typical hat usually worn by Serbs and

20    not Muslims; is that correct?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And sajkaca does not have a rim at all?

23       A.   Yes, that is correct.

24       Q.   Were you able to notice that in your statement, apart from the

25    place where you describe Mitar as wearing civilian clothes and a sajkaca,

Page 1329

 1    no weapons at all, you also mentioned that a certain Meho from Sase gave

 2    him a certificate?  That is, apart from these two incidents, you made no

 3    mention of him in that particular statement, including the event which

 4    took place in Pionirska Street on that night; is that right?

 5       A.   Yes.  I did mention Meho.  He continued along the way with us.  He

 6    joined us in his village.  He was also in the house, but I didn't tell his

 7    name in this list that I made because I didn't know his surname then.  But

 8    I think that his surname is Jasarevic.

 9       Q.   Yes, but the reason I mentioned this was because, in your

10    statement, the person referred to as Mitar is mentioned only on these two

11    occasions, that is, when you saw him wearing a sajkaca, as you have

12    described, and also when you speak about a certain Meho from Sase, to whom

13    he allegedly gave some kind of certificate.  So apart from these two

14    instances, you make no mention of him at all in your statement; is that

15    correct?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   You have also described in that statement an event which -- that

18    is, the other event which took place at around 11.30, when you and your

19    sister escaped; is that correct?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   You have testified today that your sister was with you throughout

22    that period of time, that is, from the beginning of the journey until the

23    end; is that correct?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Did you ever separate at any point in time?

Page 1330

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   According to what you can remember, she was with you all the time?

 3       A.   Yes, also in the house where I was.

 4       Q.   And she went with you towards the house and she also left the

 5    house with you when you escaped?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   So if I understand you correctly, your sister was also able to see

 8    and hear whatever you were able to see and hear?

 9       A.   Yes.  She may have seen something that I didn't see at a

10    particular point in time, but more or less I think that throughout that

11    period of time, from the house up to the hotel, and when at Mahala and

12    onwards, we more or less saw the same.

13       Q.   Did your sister also give a statement to the MUP of Bosnia and

14    Herzegovina before she gave a statement to investigators of the OTP?

15       A.   No, because I lived in Visoko and she didn't live there at that

16    time.

17       Q.   She never told you anything about having given any other statement

18    concerning these events to some other authority?

19       A.   Yes, she did, but to some ordinary people, some teachers or other

20    individuals who were involved in this.  I remember a man from Zenica who

21    questioned her about it.  But I didn't give a statement at that time at

22    all.  But I don't exactly remember to whom she gave a statement.

23       Q.   Was that an individual who was writing a book about those events

24    or an investigator from the MUP?

25       A.   No, I don't think he was an investigator from the MUP.  I think

Page 1331

 1    that he was just an ordinary man.  I don't -- I don't know.  I can't

 2    remember.  It was a long time ago.

 3       Q.   When you testified today about the fact that he was wearing a very

 4    large hat which was different from this sajkaca type of hat, can you

 5    remember what colour it was; the hat, that is?

 6       A.   No -- I mean, yes, the hat.  I thought you were referring to a

 7    sajkaca.  I think that the hat was grey, unicoloured.

 8       Q.   You described in detail what he was wearing.  You didn't tell us -

 9    you may have not noticed - what he was wearing on his feet, what kind of

10    footwear he was wearing.

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   So you don't remember what kind of footwear he was wearing,

13    whether he was barefoot or whether he had something else?

14       A.   I don't remember.

15       Q.   Before the time when you and your sister decided to leave the

16    column and try to escape, were you able to have a good view of the house

17    where people were being taken to?

18       A.   No, just a little.

19       Q.   In the statement that you made in January this year to the

20    investigator of the Prosecution, you said that you had seen armed men in

21    front of the house and on the sides of the house and that there was no

22    entrance door to that house?

23       A.   Yes, because other people told me that there was no actual door,

24    that there was only a curtain hanging there.

25       Q.   So you -- this is what you stated to the investigator on the basis

Page 1332

 1    of what other people had told you; it is not something that you personally

 2    saw?

 3       A.   No, I didn't come close, I didn't go into the house, so I didn't

 4    see it.

 5       Q.   When you spoke about the event involving plunder and seizure of

 6    belongings from you and others in which Milan Lukic took part, you told

 7    the Court that it happened during the day, shortly after Mitar Vasiljevic

 8    had left?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   In the statement you gave to the investigator, you said it was

11    dark, that it was dark in the house, and that there were only some street

12    lights outside.  So what is true; can you remember now?

13       A.   It is true that it was still day, 2.00 or 3.00 p.m., maybe even

14    4.00 p.m., when Milan Lukic came to the house and seized our money and our

15    gold.

16       Q.   So since it was in the month of June, it could not have been dark;

17    it was still daylight?

18       A.   Yes, one could see outside.  It was not dark.

19       Q.   Do you remember having stated that to the investigator, that is,

20    that you stated to the investigator that it was dark and that street

21    lights were on?  Do you remember having said that?

22       A.   As far as I can remember, yes.  But when Milan Lukic came to the

23    house to take our money and our gold, it was still daylight.

24       Q.   Let me just quote this very short portion from your statement, and

25    will you please confirm whether this is what you stated and if you

Page 1333












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1334

1    remember that:

 2            "When it became dark, Milan Lukic appeared in the house.  We were

 3    inside, there was no electricity, and I believe that street lights were

 4    already on.  Members of his group were in front of his house.  They came

 5    in two cars.  I didn't see the cars, but that is what I was told.  We

 6    gathered in the basement of the house."

 7       A.   Well, yes, maybe I -- my memory didn't serve me right at that

 8    time.  As far as I can remember now, it was still daylight.  One could see

 9    outside.  And when we left the house, it was dark, it was in the evening.

10    There was no light in the house at that time, but I remember that the

11    street was lit.

12            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

13    questions for the witness, except that I would like to make an agreement

14    with the Prosecution as to certain differences in statements, certain

15    discrepancies concerning the statement given to the investigator, so that

16    we do not tender this into evidence, if possible.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  You already have that, to a very large extent,

18    haven't you?  Is there something that the witness didn't agree with?  It's

19    only where the witness has not agreed that there is something different in

20    the statement.  My recollection, which may prove to be faulty when the

21    transcript is read, is that the witness in each case agreed that she had

22    not included the particular matter or had agreed that she had included the

23    particular matter in her previous statements.

24            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters have not been provided with the

25    relevant statement, so what you have heard was just a simultaneous

Page 1335

 1    interpretation of what the counsel quotes.

 2            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, one thing is the

 3    statement that she gave to the MUP in 1995, where we clarified the

 4    problem.  However, the statement which was given to the investigator

 5    contains certain discrepancies concerning some, in my opinion, very

 6    crucial things.  In the statement that she made to the investigator, from

 7    that statement one can conclude that she didn't at all see the person whom

 8    she identified as Mitar in front of the hotel.  So in the statement given

 9    to the investigator, she only referred to Serb policemen who told her

10    where to go and that after that --

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Please don't repeat it all.  We've heard it at least

12    twice during the cross-examination already.  We know the point you've

13    made.  I've suggested to you that the witness has agreed that she did not

14    include those matters in the statements.  The matter that she did say she

15    agreed she included was the reference to or the description of the hat

16    that the man was wearing.  Now, why is there any need to go through this

17    procedure if you've already got an agreement from the witness that those

18    discrepancies arise?  I pointed out to you that this procedure is

19    available and it should be followed where the witness does not agree.

20            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, if that's what

21    she has agreed with.  However, it seems to me that the witness did not

22    agree that this is not contained in the statement given to the

23    investigator.  If that is indeed correct, then of course there's no need

24    for me to repeat it.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, then, may I suggest to you you wait until you

Page 1336

 1    see the transcript.  If it's not there, then you raise it with the

 2    Prosecution.  But it has probably taken longer to debate this with you

 3    than it would have taken to do it, but I'm trying to stop this happening

 4    in every case.  Where the witness does agree, there is no need to obtain

 5    the Prosecution's acceptance.  You wait until you've seen the transcript.

 6    If there's something there that you say has not been agreed, then it can

 7    be agreed.

 8            May I also draw your attention to this: that if you want to

 9    cross-examine the witnesses on their statements, as I think has been your

10    practice, it is best to ensure that the interpreters have copies of the

11    statements so that they can follow them.  It's always easier for them to

12    ensure that they are using the same language as is in the statement.  They

13    should be supplied, of course, by the Prosecution in any event, as I

14    understand it.  But just would you please make certain that the

15    interpreters do have the statements before you cross-examine on them.

16            Now, is that the end of your cross-examination?

17            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.

19            Ms. Bauer, that is something which the Prosecution should have

20    done.  They should have supplied a whole set of these to the

21    interpreters.

22            MS. BAUER:  My understanding is that probably the English versions

23    from the OTP statements have been supplied but not the copy of the MUP

24    statement, because --

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Oh, I see.  All right, then.  Now, do you want to

Page 1337

 1    re-examine?

 2            MS. BAUER:  Only two short questions.

 3                          Re-examined by Ms. Bauer:

 4       Q.   VG79 [sic], have you been ever asked to provide such details about

 5    the events like you were inquired about today?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   And what you told the Court today, is this the best recollection

 8    of the events that occurred on the 14th of June, 1992?

 9       A.   Yes.

10            MS. BAUER:  Thank you very much.  No further questions.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you very much, madam, for coming to give

12    evidence.  That finishes your task here.  We're very grateful to you for

13    your assistance.  You are now free to leave.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.

15                          [The witness withdrew]

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

17            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution calls its next witness,

18    VG38.

19                          [The witness entered court]

20            JUDGE HUNT:  Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration in

21    the document which the Court usher is showing you.

22                          WITNESS:  WITNESS VG38

23                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 1338

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, sir.  Sit down, please.

 2            Mr. Groome.

 3            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                          Examined by Mr. Groome:

 5       Q.   Good morning, Witness 38.  Before we begin, you will be here for

 6    quite some time; if you want to take off your jacket, please feel free to

 7    take off your jacket if you so desire.

 8            I'd ask that the witness be shown the pseudonym sheet, which is

 9    document number 88.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  This will be Exhibit P88 and it will be under seal.

11            MR. GROOME:

12       Q.   Witness 38, I would ask you to take a look at Exhibit P88 in front

13    of you, and ask you, is that your name on the top line of that document?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And is that your date of birth on the second line of that

16    document?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   For the purposes of concealing your identity, we will refer to you

19    throughout the course of these proceedings as "Witness 38."  I would ask

20    you, if you need to refer to any of the witnesses listed on that document,

21    that you please do so by referring to their number.

22            I'd like to begin by asking you to tell us a bit about your

23    background.  The first question I would ask you is:  Did you complete

24    primary school?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1339

 1       Q.   And where did you go to primary school?

 2       A.   In Visegrad.  The name of the school was (redacted).

 3       Q.   And what street is that school located on?

 4       A.   In the neighbourhood called Mahala.

 5       Q.   Is that school across the street from the events that you are

 6    going to testify about today?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   After finishing primary school, did you go to a secondary

 9    technical school?

10       A.   Yes, but that was in Sarajevo.

11       Q.   And what profession did you learn?

12       A.   Locksmith.

13       Q.   And what is your ethnicity?

14       A.   I'm a Muslim.

15       Q.   I want to draw your attention back to 1992.  How old were you at

16    that time?

17       A.   Thirteen and a half.

18       Q.   And what village did you grow up in?

19       A.   Koritnik.

20       Q.   Now, I want to draw your attention to a specific day, the 15th of

21    April of 1992.  Did something happen in the village of Koritnik on that

22    day?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And what was it that happened?

25       A.   We were attacked by local Serbs, our neighbours, that is.

Page 1340

 1       Q.   And where did that attack come from?

 2       A.   From a neighbouring village, Koritnik.  We lived nearby.

 3       Q.   Were any of the villagers from Koritnik injured in that attack?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Were you able to see that some bullets had hit houses in the

 6    village?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Were you able to see whether or not bullets -- or some windows in

 9    those houses had been shot out?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Did there come a time that day that members or villagers from the

12    village of Koritnik left Koritnik that day?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And approximately how many villagers left that day?

15       A.   Fifty-six, approximately.

16       Q.   And where did those villagers go?

17       A.   We went to the village of Brstanica.

18       Q.   And where is that village in relation to the village of Koritnik?

19       A.   The two villages are separated by the Drina River only.

20       Q.   Is Brstanica a Muslim village?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And how did these people from Koritnik get to the village of

23    Brstanica?

24       A.   Well, we went to the river by ourselves, and then we crossed the

25    river in boats.

Page 1341

 1       Q.   When you arrived at Brstanica, would you describe what you saw

 2    when you arrived there.

 3       A.   We were met there by the Uzice Corps with trucks.

 4       Q.   And what happened in Brstanica?

 5       A.   We were forced to leave the village, that is, the neighbouring

 6    villages surrounding the town of Visegrad, and then we were transported to

 7    the stadium.

 8       Q.   And how were you transported to the stadium?

 9       A.   Some went on foot and some in trucks.

10       Q.   How did you yourself go to the stadium?

11       A.   In a truck.

12       Q.   When you arrived at the stadium, were there other people present

13    in the stadium?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Can you approximate for the Court approximately how many people

16    were in the stadium?

17       A.   There were about 6.000 people.

18       Q.   And from what you could tell, what was the majority -- what was

19    the ethnic majority of those people?

20       A.   Mostly they were Muslim.

21       Q.   And what occurred in the stadium?

22       A.   They separated military-age men.

23       Q.   What happened to those men?

24       A.   We haven't heard anything of them ever since.

25       Q.   What else happened in the stadium that day?

Page 1342

 1       A.   They were looking for weapons.

 2       Q.   And how did they look for weapons?

 3       A.   They searched us.

 4       Q.   And were you yourself searched?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Were the women in the crowd searched?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And were the children in the crowd searched?

 9       A.   All of them.

10       Q.   Was anything said to the crowd at that time?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Did there come a time when you were allowed to leave the stadium?

13       A.   Some did, some didn't, because we didn't dare go back.

14       Q.   You didn't dare go back where?

15       A.   The village of Koritnik.

16       Q.   And so where did you go?

17       A.   We stayed at the stadium, at the Drina Hotel.

18       Q.   Where is the Drina Hotel in relation to the stadium?

19       A.   In the middle.

20       Q.   From this point in time onward, did you ever attend school again

21    in Visegrad?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   How long did you stay in the Drina Hotel?

24       A.   Fifteen days.

25       Q.   And without telling us their names, would you tell us who you

Page 1343

 1    stayed there with.

 2       A.   VG13, VG18 and VG084.

 3       Q.   And were there other people from Koritnik staying in the hotel at

 4    that time as well?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Now, did there come a time when members of the Uzice Corps allowed

 7    you to go and get some food?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And would you describe for the members of the Court how they

10    allowed you to go get food.

11       A.   Well, when we went to the shops, they filmed it on -- with a

12    camera.  When they didn't, they would curse and swear at us.  When the

13    cameras were off, they would curse at us and swear at us.

14       Q.   And approximately how many times were you allowed to go and get

15    food in this manner?

16       A.   Just once.

17       Q.   And where were the shops that you were allowed to go and get food

18    from?

19       A.   Near the bus stop in Visegrad.

20       Q.   After spending 15 days in the Drina Hotel, where did you go when

21    you left it?

22       A.   We went to the village of Koritnik.

23       Q.   And can you describe what you saw when you returned there.

24       A.   As not everybody could go, there were some older women who stayed

25    in Koritnik village.

Page 1344

 1       Q.   And could you tell whether the house that you lived in had been

 2    damaged or looted in any way when you were away?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   So it was not damaged or looted; is that correct?

 5       A.   No, it wasn't.

 6       Q.   Did there come a time after you returned that you had

 7    conversations with local Serbs regarding whether or not you should remain

 8    in Koritnik?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Can you describe for us the contents of those conversations?

11       A.   We talked to them about a return.  Allegedly we weren't allowed to

12    be there because -- we shouldn't be there because one side would attack

13    us, but they didn't know which side, which army.

14       Q.   And did these types of warnings continue throughout the month of

15    May?

16       A.   Yes, they did.

17       Q.   And in the early part of June?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   I want to now draw your attention to the 13th of June.  Do you

20    recall that day?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And do you recall somebody from another village coming to speak to

23    the members of your village?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   What was the name of this person?

Page 1345

 1       A.   I don't know his proper name, but I know his nickname.

 2       Q.   Would you tell us that, please?

 3       A.   Ciro.

 4       Q.   And did you know where this person was from?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And what village was this person from?

 7       A.   Loznica.

 8       Q.   And can you tell us, approximately how far away is Loznica from

 9    Koritnik?

10       A.   Perhaps about 15 kilometres.

11       Q.   Now, can you tell us what happened when this person you've

12    referred to as "Ciro" arrived in Koritnik?

13       A.   Well, that we had to leave the village.  They promised us buses to

14    take us to the free territory, that is to say, to Zenica.

15       Q.   I'd ask you to use the words that this Ciro person used when he

16    told you this.

17       A.   "You must leave the village because the army will attack," some

18    foreign army; they don't know which.

19       Q.   Can you describe how this person was dressed?

20       A.   He had a multicoloured uniform on.

21       Q.   And what was the -- is this a camouflage uniform?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And what was the predominant colour in that uniform?

24       A.   Green.

25       Q.   And was this person, Ciro, armed?

Page 1346

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Now, would it be fair to say that the village of Koritnik has both

 3    Muslim families and Serb families living there?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Did you see Mr. Ciro address these warnings to any of the Serb

 6    families?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   So it was only addressed to Muslims?

 9       A.   That's right.

10       Q.   Can you tell us approximately what time of day this occurred?

11       A.   About 12.00, 1.00.

12       Q.   And that is in the afternoon?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Was your mother present during this morning?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   And approximately how long did this interaction with this person

17    Ciro last?

18       A.   Not more than 20 minutes.

19       Q.   And were you able to see where Ciro went after he warned you?

20       A.   He went back to where the Serbs were mostly.

21       Q.   Is that the Serb houses in Koritnik?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Approximately how many Muslims were in the group with you that

24    were warned by him?

25       A.   They were elderly persons who were not up to it, five of them.

Page 1347












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1348

1    They were not fit for service.  There were about five of them.

 2       Q.   I want to draw your attention to that night.  Did you and your

 3    mother discuss whether you should try to leave Koritnik?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   At that point in time, had you heard of Muslims being killed in

 6    Visegrad?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Did you decide that night to leave Visegrad?

 9       A.   Could you repeat the question, please?

10       Q.   Did you and your mother that night decide to leave Koritnik in the

11    municipality of Visegrad?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And did you pack that night?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Can you describe for us briefly what you packed to take with you.

16       A.   Mostly clothes; underwear and clothes.

17       Q.   Did you pack any food?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Were you given an instruction regarding how much food to pack?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   And did you pack any photos or other family possessions?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   On this night, did you think that you would be coming back or

24    returning to Koritnik?

25       A.   No.

Page 1349

 1       Q.   And was a plan made or an arrangement made for the time that you

 2    would leave Koritnik the next morning?

 3       A.   Could you repeat that, please?

 4       Q.   Did you and your mother agree that you should leave at a

 5    particular time the next morning?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And what time was that?

 8       A.   7.00 in the morning.

 9       Q.   Did you gather to leave at 7.00 in the morning the next day?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And where did you gather?

12       A.   In front of the shop in Koritnik.

13       Q.   Were there other people there aside from yourself and your mother?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Without telling us their names, can you approximate the number of

16    people that had gathered at that point in time?

17       A.   Well, about 50.

18       Q.   And would it be fair to say that most of these people were related

19    to you in some way or another?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Aside from these Muslim people, was there anybody else present at

22    that time?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And who was that?

25       A.   Dusan Gavrilovic.

Page 1350

 1       Q.   And what is his ethnicity?

 2       A.   A Serb.

 3       Q.   And can you describe for us how he was dressed?

 4       A.   He didn't have a uniform on, but he was armed.

 5       Q.   And what was he armed with?

 6       A.   An automatic weapon.

 7       Q.   Did he say anything to you and other people in the group?

 8       A.   Allegedly the buses were supposed to transfer us to Visegrad.

 9       Q.   Were there any buses in Koritnik that morning?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Did this person you've described as Dusan, did he say anything

12    regarding how you would get to Visegrad?

13       A.   The buses were to come and get us, but as they didn't arrive, we

14    had to go on foot.

15       Q.   And approximately what time would you estimate you departed from

16    Koritnik that morning?

17       A.   About half past 7.00.

18       Q.   This person Dusan, did he go with you?

19       A.   Yes, to the village of Greben.

20       Q.   Is Greben the next village on the way to Visegrad from Koritnik?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And can you tell us how far away is Greben from Koritnik?

23       A.   About 15 minutes on foot.

24       Q.   Now, this person Dusan, where exactly, where precisely did he walk

25    in relation to the group of people that left Koritnik?

Page 1351

 1       A.   He was in front of us.

 2       Q.   And you said that 50 or 60 people -- 50 to 60 people gathered at

 3    7.00 in the morning.  Did that entire group leave for Visegrad?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Was there a dog also in the group?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And did that dog belong to one of the people who was travelling

 8    down to Visegrad?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Now, did you in fact arrive in the village of Greben that morning?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And can you describe for the Chamber what occurred after you

13    arrived in the village of Greben.

14       A.   When we got down there, we still waited for the buses, but as they

15    didn't show any signs of turning up, we left.  A Golf car came by once.

16    And there were two policemen there.  They were wearing uniforms, and they

17    swore at us and said, "Fuck your mothers.  We'll drown you in the Drina."

18       Q.   Did they remain in Greben, the two policemen?  Did they remain

19    there?

20       A.   No.  They went further on towards Prelovo village.

21       Q.   Was that up in the direction from which you had just come?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Did you see this person you've referred to as Dusan go anywhere

24    when you arrived in Greben?

25       A.   Dusan went to Lipovac, Milorad.

Page 1352

 1       Q.   Is that the name of a person: Lipovac, Milorad?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Did you know this person from before this day?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   When this group from Koritnik stopped in Greben, would it be fair

 6    to say that they were in the centre of the village?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And were you able to see the house of Lipovac, Milorad at this

 9    time?

10       A.   Yes.  His house is right by the road.

11       Q.   And Dusan, did he enter that house?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Did there come a time when you saw somebody leave that house?

14       A.   Lipovac -- Milorad Lipovac went out.

15       Q.   And approximately how much time transpired between the time you

16    saw Dusan go in and Lipovac Milorad come out?

17       A.   Perhaps three minutes.  It was just in passing, because we were

18    going down to Greben, towards the main road towards Visegrad.

19       Q.   What did Milorad Lipovac do after he left the house?

20       A.   He took us over and took us off in the direction of Visegrad.

21       Q.   Did he say anything to you and other members of the group before

22    he left for Visegrad?

23       A.   He just said, "The buses are due to arrive, but since they didn't

24    arrive, we have to walk."

25       Q.   Did he say what would happen to you when you arrived in Visegrad?

Page 1353

 1       A.   Allegedly that we would be transported to Zenica.

 2       Q.   Approximately how long did you remain in Greben in total?

 3       A.   Just about half an hour.

 4       Q.   After you left Greben, what would be the next village that the

 5    group headed towards?

 6       A.   Sase.

 7       Q.   And did you arrive at Sase?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Can you approximate for us how long it took to get from Greben to

10    Sase?

11       A.   Whereas there was some elderly women and women with children,

12    about an hour.

13       Q.   Did there come a time when the group arrived at the intersection

14    of the road you were travelling on and the road that goes up to the Vilina

15    Vlas Hotel?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   I'd ask you to describe to the Chamber what you observed at that

18    intersection.

19       A.   There was a sort of checkpoint there.  There were five people in

20    camouflage uniforms, and they were armed with automatic weapons.

21       Q.   And what, if anything, happened at that checkpoint?

22       A.   No, nothing happened there.

23       Q.   On the road between Greben and Sase, did you pass by houses

24    belonging to Serb people on the road?

25       A.   Yes, we did.  Along the road, there was a lot of swearing from the

Page 1354

 1    Serbs.

 2       Q.   On the road between Greben and Sase, did you see a bus travelling

 3    on that road?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And was the bus travelling to Visegrad or from Visegrad?

 6       A.   To Visegrad, but the bus was transporting Muslims from the

 7    neighbouring village of Vlahovici.

 8       Q.   And was the bus full?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   How many buses did you see that morning?

11       A.   Three buses passed by.

12       Q.   Were you able to tell who was in the other buses?

13       A.   People from the village of Vlahovici as well.

14       Q.   Now, what would be the next village going from Vlahovici to

15    Visegrad?

16       A.   Kosovo Polje.

17       Q.   And before you left for the village of Kosovo Polje, did any

18    people from the village of Sase join this group?

19       A.   Yes, they did.

20       Q.   Approximately how many?

21       A.   About 10, 10 to 13.

22       Q.   Were you able to learn what their intention was in going to

23    Visegrad that morning?

24       A.   Well, I learned that they were allegedly going to transport us to

25    Zenica because we weren't safe in those villages.  That's what was

Page 1355

 1    allegedly said.

 2       Q.   Approximately how long did it take you to reach Kosovo Polje?

 3       A.   Not longer than 25 minutes.

 4       Q.   Now, would it be fair to say that, in Kosovo Polje, the population

 5    is made up of both Muslim families and Serb families?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And do the Muslim families in Kosovo Polje live in a particular

 8    area of Kosovo Polje?

 9       A.   Could you repeat that, please?

10       Q.   The Muslim families living in Kosovo Polje, did they at that time

11    live in a particular area of Kosovo Polje?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And can you describe, in relation to the road that you were

14    travelling on, where those Muslim families lived.

15       A.   Moving from Koritnik to Visegrad, the Muslims lived on the

16    right-hand side and the Serbs lived on the left.

17       Q.   Where is the Drina at this point; which side of the road?

18       A.   Below the road, that is to say, on the right-hand side.

19       Q.   I just want to ask you a few questions to help orient us regarding

20    this trip.  Would it be fair to say that -- or let me ask you this:

21    Koritnik is on which bank of the Drina; the western bank or the eastern

22    bank?

23       A.   Eastern.

24       Q.   And is that commonly referred to as "the right bank" by people

25    living in Visegrad?

Page 1356

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Now, travelling from Koritnik to the town centre of Visegrad,

 3    would it be necessary to cross the Drina?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   So that they are on the same side of the Drina; is that correct?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Now, near the centre of Visegrad, is there another river that

 8    joins up with the Drina River?

 9       A.   Yes, the River Rzav.

10       Q.   And from which direction does the River Rzav come from?

11       A.   From the direction of --

12       Q.   Let me ask the question in another way.  Travelling from Koritnik

13    to the centre of Visegrad, would the group have had to have crossed the

14    Rzav River?

15       A.   Yes.  It flows from the direction of Dobrun.  That's the direction

16    of the Rzav River.

17       Q.   And did the group cross the Rzav River that day?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Approximately how much time did it take for this group to travel

20    from Kosovo Polje to this point where you're about to cross the Rzav

21    River?

22       A.   About half an hour.

23       Q.   And is there a bridge crossing the Rzav River at that place?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Can you describe for us where that bridge is in relation to the

Page 1357

 1    police station in Visegrad?

 2       A.   Going from the Pionirska valley to Visegrad, across the river,

 3    right by the Rzav bridge, on the left-hand side, is where the police

 4    station, or rather, the MUP.

 5       Q.   And are you able to estimate what time it was when you arrived at

 6    the Rzav bridge?

 7       A.   About half past 12.00.

 8       Q.   Can you describe for the Chamber what you observed at that

 9    location at that time.

10       A.   When we crossed the bridge, there was a group of armed people by

11    the MUP and there was a car there.  I wasn't able to identify it.  On the

12    car, there was a machine-gun while we were crossing the Rzav bridge.

13       Q.   Approximately how many people were in this group?

14       A.   About five or six people.

15       Q.   And was this group of people within eyesight of the MUP station?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And were you able to see where this machine-gun was being pointed?

18       A.   At us as we were crossing the bridge.

19       Q.   And did any of these men say anything to the group as the group

20    crossed the bridge?

21       A.   They just cursed us.

22       Q.   Were any threats made?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Do you know where Milorad Lipovac is at this time?

25       A.   He was in front of us, ahead of us.

Page 1358

 1       Q.   Now, from the point in time where you first see him in Greben

 2    until this point in time now, has he been with the group the entire time?

 3       A.   Yes, but some ten metres ahead of us.

 4       Q.   After you crossed the bridge, where did you and this group go?

 5       A.   We went towards the old bridge.

 6       Q.   And approximately how long does it take or did it take to travel

 7    from the Rzav bridge to the old bridge?

 8       A.   Not more than 20 minutes.

 9       Q.   And was Milorad Lipovac with you as you travelled to the old

10    bridge?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Can you describe for us where is the old bridge in relation to a

13    hotel which is commonly called the new hotel?

14       A.   To the left.

15       Q.   And approximately how far away is it from -- how far away is the

16    hotel from the bridge?

17       A.   I'm not able to tell that.  I don't know.

18       Q.   Can you see the bridge from the front of the hotel?

19       A.   I'm not very familiar with this new hotel.  I've heard of it, but

20    I'm not able to explain to you.

21       Q.   The dog that you mentioned, was the dog still with the group at

22    this point in time?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And did something happen to the dog when you arrived in this area?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1359

 1       Q.   Can you tell us what happened to the dog?

 2       A.   Jovo Rajak was there.  He's from Lijeska.  And he was wearing an

 3    automatic weapon and he said, "Take this dog away.  He's going to bite

 4    someone."  And then he fired five bullets into him, into it.

 5       Q.   And did they kill the dog, or did this person kill the dog?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   What was done with the dog after it had been shot?

 8       A.   Alija Kurspahic took it away, together with Munira Kurspahic, and

 9    they threw it from the old bridge into the Drina.

10       Q.   When you arrived at this location, did you see Milorad Lipovac

11    speaking with anybody?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And who did you see him speaking with?

14       A.   With Mitar Vasiljevic.

15       Q.   And for approximately how long did they speak?

16       A.   Not more than ten minutes.

17       Q.   Can you describe for the Court how it is you know that the person

18    you're referring to now is Mitar Vasiljevic.

19       A.   He used to work in Panos in the new hotel, and sometimes he would

20    be in the Vilina Vlas Hotel.

21       Q.   Did you have any relatives that also knew him?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And without telling us the name of any relatives, can you tell us

24    what their relationship was with Mitar Vasiljevic?

25       A.   They were on very good terms.

Page 1360

 1       Q.   Did you have a relative that also worked in one of the places that

 2    Mitar Vasiljevic worked?

 3       A.   Yes.  He was an intern there, a trainee.

 4       Q.   Did there come a time when you were shown a group of photographs

 5    of 12 different people and asked whether or not you could recognise

 6    anybody?

 7       A.   Yes, I did.

 8       Q.   And did you recognise anybody in that group of photographs?

 9       A.   I recognised Mitar Vasiljevic.

10       Q.   And did you do anything on that group of photographs to mark or

11    indicate that you recognised Mitar Vasiljevic?

12       A.   Yes; I signed it.

13            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would ask to go into

14    private session for the purposes of showing an exhibit which bears the

15    name of the witness.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  But where is it going to reveal it?  It doesn't have

17    to be shown on the ELMO, does it?

18            MR. GROOME:  No, it doesn't, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, then let's get on with it without worrying

20    about it.

21            MR. GROOME:  I would ask that the witness be shown Prosecution

22    Exhibit 20.38.

23       Q.   Witness 38, Prosecution Document Number 20.38 has been placed in

24    front of you.  Do you recognise what this document is?

25       A.   Yes, I do.

Page 1361












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1362

1       Q.   And what is it?

 2       A.   These are photographs of criminals.

 3       Q.   And is this the group of photographs that you were shown in

 4    connection with this case?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And you said that earlier -- that you indicated one of these

 7    photographs to be that of Mitar Vasiljevic.  Can you tell us the number of

 8    which photograph you identified as such?

 9       A.   Number 3.

10       Q.   And does this document contain your photograph?  I mean - sorry -

11    your signature?

12       A.   Yes.

13            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender Prosecution

14    Document Number 20.38 into evidence.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

16            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  That will be Exhibit P20, VG038, and it

18    will be under seal.

19            Mr. Groome, are you going to try to pin down the appearance of

20    Mr. Vasiljevic more than we have at the moment?

21            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  We started back at 12.00, and there was 20 minutes

23    for something and then something else happened.  But at the moment, this

24    is left completely up in the air.

25            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, I'll do that now.  Before I do it,

Page 1363

 1    Your Honour, I just have a couple of questions to ask the witness.

 2       Q.   Would you recognise Mr. Vasiljevic if you saw him again?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   I'd ask you to look around the courtroom today and tell us, do you

 5    recognise anybody in this courtroom?

 6       A.   Yes, I do.

 7       Q.   And who do you recognise?

 8       A.   Mitar Vasiljevic.

 9       Q.   And can you describe where the person you're identifying now is

10    sitting and describe what he is wearing.

11       A.   He's wearing a brown blazer, and he's sitting at the back; on the

12    left side, that is.

13            MR. GROOME:  Let the record reflect --

14            JUDGE HUNT:  We've agreed that he has identified the accused.

15    "The record reflecting" is a term which means all sorts of things, but it

16    doesn't really mean that.  But I know that it's an American phrase that we

17    hear so often here.

18            MR. GROOME:

19       Q.   Now, I want to take you back to this initial viewing of Mitar

20    Vasiljevic.  Approximately how far away were you from Mitar Vasiljevic at

21    this particular point in time?

22       A.   Not more than five metres.

23       Q.   And are you able to tell us what you remember about what he was

24    wearing?

25       A.   He was wearing a large black hat on his head and a black uniform.

Page 1364

 1       Q.   And do you recall whether or not he was armed?

 2       A.   No.  I mean he didn't have a weapon.

 3       Q.   Did he say anything to you and other members of the group?

 4       A.   He said that there were no buses that day, that there would be

 5    some "tomorrow," the next day.

 6       Q.   And did he say anything else?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Aside from the people from Koritnik and Sase, are there other

 9    people present on the street at this time?

10       A.   No, not Muslims.

11       Q.   Were there Serbs in the area at the time?

12       A.   There were Serbs, but not women and children; just soldiers.

13       Q.   And were you able to tell whether those soldiers were members of

14    the Yugoslav People's Army or other types of soldiers?

15       A.   Most of them were local Serbs.

16       Q.   And can you describe for us how they were dressed?

17       A.   The majority were wearing multicoloured uniforms, predominantly

18    green in colour.

19       Q.   Similar to the camouflage uniforms you've referred to already in

20    your testimony?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And were these people armed?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Did there come a time when you and other members of the group left

25    this area by the bridge?

Page 1365

 1       A.   Yes, we did.

 2       Q.   And approximately how long did you remain in this area before you

 3    left?

 4       A.   Until half past 2.00.

 5       Q.   And how was it you came to leave this area?

 6       A.   We were led by Mitar Vasiljevic to Nova Mahala.

 7       Q.   Did he say anything before what you describe as leading you to

 8    Nova Mahala?

 9       A.   Yes.  He said, "There are no buses today.  There will be some

10    tomorrow."

11       Q.   Did you know where he was leading you before you left this area?

12       A.   Well, we were familiar with the streets of the neighbourhood, but

13    we didn't know where he was taking us to.

14       Q.   Can you describe for us the path that you took from this area by

15    the bridge to the place that you're describing as Nova Mahala?

16       A.   Again, we went back via the Rzav bridge; that is, we passed by the

17    MUP and went towards Mahala.

18       Q.   And is Pionirska Street in Mahala?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Was Mitar Vasiljevic among the group of people that went up to

21    Pionirska Street?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And do you recall where he was in relation to the group?

24       A.   He was walking ahead of us.

25       Q.   When you arrived at the Rzav River and crossed the bridge, did you

Page 1366

 1    see the people you described earlier as having a machine-gun?  Did you see

 2    them at this time?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   And can you tell us how long it took to travel from the area by

 5    the bridge to the area known as Nova Mahala?

 6       A.   About 20 minutes.

 7       Q.   Now, can you describe to us what occurred once you arrived in the

 8    area of Nova Mahala?

 9       A.   We entered the house of Jusuf Memic.

10       Q.   And where was that house in relation to your school?

11       A.   It's on the left side.

12       Q.   Did all of the people enter the house of Jusuf Memic?

13       A.   No.  Some got into the house of his son.

14       Q.   And where is that house in relation to the house of Jusuf Memic?

15       A.   Right across.

16       Q.   Across the street?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Are these two houses on the same side of the street?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And are they next to each other?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Which house did your mother initially go into?

23       A.   She got into his son's house, where I was.

24       Q.   Did there come a -- I'm sorry.  So the first house that you went

25    into is which house?

Page 1367

 1       A.   His son's house.

 2       Q.   And how long did you remain there?

 3       A.   For about an hour.

 4       Q.   Now, the group that came from Koritnik, did they all come up to

 5    this area in Nova Mahala?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And where was Mitar Vasiljevic at the time that you arrived in

 8    Nova Mahala?

 9       A.   He was in front of the house.

10       Q.   And did he say anything that you could hear?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Now, after an hour of being in the son's house, where did you go?

13       A.   We got into Jusuf Memic's house.

14       Q.   And can you tell us approximately how many people originally went

15    into the son's house?

16       A.   About ten.

17       Q.   And did they all move out from that house?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Can you tell us what happened when you moved to the house of Jusuf

20    Memic?

21       A.   Could you repeat the question, please?

22       Q.   Can you tell us what happened after you moved to the house of

23    Jusuf Memic?

24       A.   Mitar Vasiljevic wrote something on a piece of paper.  I

25    personally didn't read what was written on that piece of paper, but he

Page 1368

 1    gave it to [redacted] and he kept this piece of paper which was

 2    supposed to protect us, allegedly, so that nobody would harm us.

 3       Q.   And did you know [redacted] before this day?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Can you tell us what village he was from?

 6       A.   Sase.

 7       Q.   Did [redacted] tell the group of people what was contained on

 8    this paper?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Were you able -- you said that you couldn't read the paper.  Were

11    you able to see the paper?

12       A.   Yes, we could see the paper.  We saw the paper.

13       Q.   And were you able to tell whether it was an official document or

14    simply a piece of ordinary paper?

15       A.   It was just a piece of ordinary paper.

16       Q.   After this occurred, did Mr. Vasiljevic remain at the house?

17       A.   No.  He left.  I don't know where.

18       Q.   Now, can you describe the door -- where is the door on -- the

19    entrance door on Jusuf Memic's house?  Which side of the house?

20       A.   The door was on the upper part, because we were upstairs.

21       Q.   And did that door face Pionirska Street?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   And the door of the other house, did that door face Pionirska

24    Street?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1369

 1       Q.   And which house is this that you're referring to now: the house of

 2    Jusuf Memic or the house of his son?

 3       A.   The house of his son.  In that house, the door was facing the

 4    street.

 5       Q.   And did you have to take stairs to get up to the entrance door of

 6    that house?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And approximately how many steps to the entrance door of that

 9    house?

10       A.   I don't know.  I couldn't tell.

11       Q.   That afternoon, did you see anybody pass by the house?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Did the people in the house have a meal that day?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And where did they get the food?

16       A.   What they had taken from their homes.

17       Q.   Was anybody cooking with a fire that you could see?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Now, after Mitar Vasiljevic left, did other people arrive at the

20    house of Jusuf Memic?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Did there come a time when other people entered the house, other

23    Serbs?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Do you know a person by the name of "Milan Lukic"?

Page 1370

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Did there come a time when he arrived at the house?

 3       A.   Well, they arrived at half past 4.00.

 4       Q.   Can you tell us, did you know Milan Lukic prior to this day?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   How did you know his name on this day?

 7       A.   Probably because there were some people who had gone to school

 8    with him, men and women who knew him very well.

 9       Q.   And were there other people that came to the house with him?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Can you describe those people or tell us their names, if you know?

12       A.   Milan Susnjar, also known as "Laco"; Milan Lukic; Sredoje Lukic;

13    and Mitar Vasiljevic.

14       Q.   The person you're describing as Sredoje Lukic, did you know him

15    prior to this day?

16       A.   I think he used to work as a police officer in Visegrad.

17       Q.   And the person you're describing as Milan Susnjar, did you know

18    him prior to this day?

19       A.   Probably by sight, but not before this day.  But there were people

20    there who knew him.

21       Q.   And did you learn his name from people that were there?

22       A.   Yes.

23            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, before I proceed, this might be a good

24    place to break.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well.  We'll adjourn now until 1.30 [sic].

Page 1371

 1                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

 2                          --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm sorry that I gave everybody a fright when I said,

 4    "We'll adjourn until 1.30."  I'm glad you all stayed away until 2.30.

 5            Yes, Mr. Groome.

 6            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness 38.  Before the break, you were describing

 8    for us a period of time when Mr. Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic

 9    and Milan Susnjar came to the house of Jusuf Memic.  I want you to orient

10    us regarding time.  Are you able to estimate how much time elapsed between

11    the time that Mitar Vasiljevic left the house the first time and the time

12    that these men arrived at the house?

13       A.   Well, about an hour.

14       Q.   And between the time that he left the first time and then returned

15    with these men, did anybody else come to the house?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Did anybody else pass the house, that you could see?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Now, could you describe for us how Mr. Vasiljevic was dressed at

20    this time?

21       A.   He had a black hat and a black uniform.

22       Q.   Was it the same as when you saw him earlier in the day?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And could you tell if he was armed?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1372

 1       Q.   And are you able to tell us what he was armed with?

 2       A.   An automatic.

 3       Q.   I'd ask you to describe each of the other men.  Can you tell us

 4    what they were wearing?  We'll begin with Mr. Lukic, Milan Lukic.

 5       A.   He was wearing a multicoloured uniform.

 6       Q.   And what was the predominant colour of that uniform?

 7       A.   Green.

 8       Q.   Was that a camouflage-type uniform?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And could you tell if he was armed?

11       A.   Yes.  He also had an automatic weapon.

12       Q.   Mr. Sredoje Lukic, could you please describe what he was wearing.

13       A.   The same as Milan Lukic.  He was armed with an automatic weapon.

14       Q.   And finally, Mr. Milan Susnjar, can you describe what he was

15    wearing?

16       A.   The same as Milan and Sredoje, and he had a bayonet.

17       Q.   Is that the only weapon that he had with him?

18       A.   Could you repeat that, please?

19       Q.   You said he had a bayonet.  Was this the only weapon he had or did

20    he have other weapons as well?

21       A.   He had an automatic rifle as well.

22       Q.   Now, aside from these four men, did you see any other people there

23    present at that time?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Can you describe for us what happened when these four men came to

Page 1373

 1    the house of Jusuf Memic?

 2       A.   Mitar Vasiljevic and Milan Lukic were in front of the house, that

 3    is to say, where the windows were.  He was on one side and the other one

 4    was on the other side.  And Milan Susnjar and Sredoje were inside, and

 5    they were searching for money and gold.  If you didn't give it up, then

 6    you would get a bullet in your forehead.

 7       Q.   Did one of the two men that was inside say something regarding

 8    money and gold?

 9       A.   No.  They just asked us for money and gold.

10       Q.   Can you tell us, using as best you're able their words, what was

11    said to the people inside the house?

12       A.   Milan Susnjar said, "Money and gold.  If you don't give it up,

13    you'll get a bullet in your forehead."

14       Q.   And the other person with him, Sredoje Lukic, I believe, did he

15    say anything?

16       A.   No.  He was standing in the middle of the house.

17       Q.   Are you able to approximate for us what time of the day this is

18    occurring?

19       A.   About 5.00.

20       Q.   And did any of these four men have any covering on their face or

21    any disguise on their face?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Can you describe for us what occurred after Mr. Susnjar demanded

24    this money from the people?

25       A.   They searched us in the room next door.  That is to say, they took

Page 1374

 1    our clothes off.  We were naked, men and women.

 2       Q.   This other room that you're referring to, can you tell us what the

 3    room was used for?

 4       A.   Probably for sleeping in.

 5       Q.   And can you describe for us in greater detail how the people in

 6    the house were searched?  Were they all searched together or in groups or

 7    individually?

 8       A.   Individually.

 9       Q.   And who was inside that room, doing the search?

10       A.   Milan Susnjar.

11       Q.   And where was the other person at this time?

12       A.   He was in the neighbouring room.

13       Q.   Now, you said earlier in your testimony that you saw Milan Lukic

14    and Mitar Vasiljevic at the front of the house; is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And how was it you were able to see them at the front of the

17    house?

18       A.   Well, we could see them -- I could see them when they came, all

19    four of them, and then two of them went down outside in front of the house

20    and the other two were inside.

21       Q.   And how were you able to see where they went outside the house?

22       A.   Because I heard them talking.  They said that we shouldn't throw

23    any jewellery or money out of the window.

24       Q.   Approximately how long did it take for all of the people in the

25    house to be searched?

Page 1375












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1376

 1       A.   About two hours, I think, two and a half, perhaps.

 2       Q.   And during this entire two-hour period, is it Mr. Susnjar who is

 3    doing the actual searching of people?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   What happened after the last person was searched?

 6       A.   Then Milan Susnjar said, "We're going to drink now, have a

 7    drink."

 8       Q.   Then what happened?

 9       A.   Then they left.  We stayed on there in the house.

10       Q.   Did there come a time when some of these men returned to the

11    house?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And can you estimate for us the period of time between when they

14    left after the search and the next time some of these men appeared at the

15    house?

16       A.   I know they came at about half past 10.00, because I had a watch

17    on my hand.

18       Q.   Was that a watch that was not taken during the search?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And why was that?

21       A.   Well, who had earrings in their ears and rings on their fingers,

22    they didn't take that; just if you had anything on you, any other things

23    on you.

24       Q.   Was it dark out at this point?

25       A.   You mean when they came at half past 10.00 or when they searched

Page 1377

 1    us?

 2       Q.   Yes, when they came at half past 10.00.

 3       A.   Yes, it was dark.

 4       Q.   Can you describe for us what happened when some of these people

 5    returned.

 6       A.   They said, "The Green Berets are shooting.  You have to hide in

 7    the cellar."

 8       Q.   Were you able to see who it was that returned at this time?

 9       A.   Yes; the same four men who had searched us.

10       Q.   You've just described somebody as speaking.  Did you see who or

11    hear who it was that spoke?

12       A.   No, I didn't see anything, but I heard who was doing the talking.

13       Q.   You heard who was doing the talking?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Were you able to identify who it was?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   Can you give us the names of the people that returned at this

18    point in time?

19       A.   Milan Susnjar, Mitar Vasiljevic, Sredoje Lukic, and Milan Lukic.

20       Q.   Was there any source or sources of light that you could tell at

21    this point in time?

22       A.   Yes, there was some light there, and in the house next door there

23    was no light.

24       Q.   So was there light in the house of Jusuf Memic?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1378

 1       Q.   Were there lights in the house of his son?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Did any of these men have a source of light with them?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Can you describe it for us?

 6       A.   They had a flashlight.

 7       Q.   How many of them had a flashlight?

 8       A.   All four of them.

 9       Q.   What happened after the man made this statement regarding the

10    Green Berets; what happened after that?

11       A.   After that, they took us into the next house, Adem Omeragic's

12    house, and they told us that we'd be safest in the cellar.  And when we

13    started going out of the house of Jusuf Memic, they said, "Fuck you."

14       Q.   When you say "they," are you able to be more specific about which

15    of these men said that?

16       A.   No, I couldn't recognise that because it was night-time and we

17    didn't dare look at them that much.  We were afraid.

18       Q.   On the way to this other house, were you able to see any of these

19    men?

20       A.   All four of them took up positions between one house and the next,

21    but I couldn't actually see where they were standing.

22       Q.   Are you familiar with a creek in the area of Pionirska Street?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Can you describe for us where the Omeragic house is with respect

25    to that creek?

Page 1379

 1       A.   The creek is behind the house.

 2       Q.   And did you enter the room of that house?

 3       A.   Which one do you mean?  Adem Omeragic's?

 4       Q.   Adem Omeragic's house.

 5       A.   It was just one room, actually, as far as I was able to

 6    understand.  It was night-time.

 7       Q.   Approximately how far was the distance between the house of Jusuf

 8    Memic and the house of Adem Omeragic?

 9       A.   About 150 metres.

10       Q.   I'm going to ask you to describe for the Chamber what the inside

11    of that room looked like.  What was its approximate size?

12       A.   Perhaps eight by eight.

13       Q.   That's metres?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Were there windows in that room?

16       A.   Yes.  There were two windows.

17       Q.   And in which direction did those windows face?

18       A.   The lower side of the house.

19       Q.   If one were to stand inside the house and look out the window,

20    what would one be looking at?

21       A.   The creek flows below the house.

22       Q.   Would that be true for both windows?  Were both windows on the

23    same side of the house?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Aside from -- let me ask you this:  Were there any stairs to the

Page 1380

 1    upper floors of this house which you could tell from the room that you

 2    were in?

 3       A.   No, I couldn't see that because it was dark.

 4       Q.   Aside from the two windows you've described and the door of this

 5    house, was there any way that you could see to enter or leave the house?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   The windows in the house, did they have glass in them?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And was there anything else, aside from the glass, on those

10    windows?

11       A.   Yes.  There was a net of some kind, some netting.

12       Q.   Were you able to tell whether both windows had glass?

13       A.   Yes, there was glass on both the windows.

14       Q.   And were you able to tell whether both windows had this netting

15    that you're describing?

16       A.   I couldn't see that because I jumped up to the second window from

17    the door.

18       Q.   Can you describe this netting with a little greater detail for the

19    Court, perhaps by using an example of something similar to the netting

20    that covered the window?

21       A.   The netting was -- oh, there were -- there were several nets from

22    peppers, paprikas.

23            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes:  Probably from the sacks.

24            MR. GROOME:

25       Q.   Was the netting similar to the net sacks that peppers are sold in

Page 1381

 1    in Bosnia?

 2       A.   Yes, similar to that, that's right.

 3       Q.   What, if any, furniture was in the room?

 4       A.   As far as I know, there was just a table.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Does your expertise, Mr. Groome, extend to the size

 6    of those nets that the paprikas are sold in in Bosnia?

 7            MR. GROOME:  Not mine, Your Honour, but I can certainly ask the

 8    witness.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  Are they like a tennis court net or something?

10            MR. GROOME:  I'll ask a few more questions regarding that and

11    see.

12       Q.   I want to ask a few more questions regarding the nets that you've

13    described here.  Did the netting cover the entire window that you

14    described as being covered by it?

15       A.   Yes, it covered the whole window.

16       Q.   And can you approximate for us, what would be the open area in the

17    net?  How large were the holes or the open spaces in the net?

18       A.   Perhaps half a centimetre.

19       Q.   Would those holes have been larger or smaller than the spaces that

20    we would see in a tennis net?

21       A.   Smaller, smaller.

22       Q.   Would the space of the net have been large enough to put your hand

23    through it?

24       A.   No.  Perhaps a mosquito could get by, but that's all.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  The other question, I suppose, which will arise is:

Page 1382

 1    What was it made of; plastic, or metal, or what?

 2            MR. GROOME:

 3       Q.   Were you able to tell what material this netting was made from?

 4       A.   It's plastic, mostly.

 5       Q.   Were you able to tell -- let me ask this question:  Was the

 6    netting on the inside of the glass or on the outside of the glass?

 7       A.   Outside.

 8       Q.   Aside from this table, was there any other furniture in the room,

 9    that you could tell?

10       A.   No, I couldn't tell because it was night, dark.

11       Q.   Could you describe for us, where were you with respect to the

12    people that went into this -- well, let me ask you this:  How many people

13    went into the room of this house?  Can you estimate that for us?

14       A.   About 75 to 80.

15       Q.   And where were you in that group; one of the first, one of the

16    last, or in the middle?

17       A.   I was in the middle, by the table.

18       Q.   Were people standing in the room or was there anywhere to sit in

19    the room?

20       A.   Some people were standing, others were sitting, but there wasn't

21    enough room.

22       Q.   Can you tell us what you observed when you went into the room?

23    Were any of the four men you've described inside the room when you went

24    into the room?

25       A.   No, nobody was there.

Page 1383

 1       Q.   What did you do after you entered the room?

 2       A.   I went to sleep.  I put my arm on the table and went to sleep.

 3    And suddenly I heard a scream and cries, and I heard someone say, "They

 4    are going to set light to us."

 5       Q.   Were you able to tell who said that?

 6       A.   I couldn't say.  I don't know who said that, but I just heard

 7    someone say it.  It was a woman, a female voice.

 8       Q.   Could you tell where in the room this person was?

 9       A.   By the door.

10       Q.   Do you know how long you were asleep?

11       A.   I couldn't say.

12       Q.   Can you tell us what happened after you heard the screams?

13       A.   I moved to the window, and I saw a woman breaking the window.  It

14    was VG18.

15       Q.   What happened then?

16       A.   I rushed to the window.  She had managed to break part of the

17    glass or part of the window, the one window pane, and I broke the other.

18    And VG18 then got the netting down, and I tried to jump out.  When I tried

19    to jump out, the part by the door was in flames so that I was able to

20    recognise Milan Susnjar standing there, standing next to the other window

21    and door, and then he went off towards the next-door window.  I came back

22    into the house.

23       Q.   What happened then?

24       A.   Then he threw a bomb in the next-door window by the door.  The

25    bomb exploded, and I jumped out.

Page 1384

 1       Q.   Before you jumped out, did you see or smell smoke in that room?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   At what point in time did you first realise that there was smoke

 4    in the room?

 5       A.   When I wanted to try and jump out, it was suffocating.

 6       Q.   Can you describe that smoke for us?  Is there anything unusual

 7    about it?

 8       A.   It was some sort of mat.  I don't know what.

 9       Q.   You said it was some sort of mat.  Can you describe what you mean

10    by that, please?

11       A.   Mata [phoen].

12       Q.   Can you describe for us again the smoke and what you believe it

13    came from?

14       A.   Well, it was some sort of mixture like paint, or dye, or something

15    like that.  It smelt like that.  It was a blend of this.

16       Q.   Did there come a time that you noticed a flame in that room?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Can you tell us when it was you first remember seeing flames in

19    that room?

20       A.   When I moved towards the window.

21       Q.   And can you tell us where in the room you saw flames?

22       A.   At the entrance door.

23       Q.   What were the other people in the room doing at this time?

24       A.   They were screaming, crying.

25       Q.   At the time you first saw flames, is this before or after Milan

Page 1385

 1    Susnjar threw what you described as a bomb in one of the windows?

 2       A.   Yes, I saw him at the time the fire broke out on the first window

 3    and I was about to jump, jump out, and the area -- one part of the area in

 4    front of the house was lit.

 5       Q.   What was it lit from?

 6       A.   It had already been on fire before he threw it in.

 7       Q.   The window that you jumped out of, was it the window closest to

 8    the door or furthest from the door?

 9       A.   Furthest from the door.

10       Q.   Can you describe for us what happened as you jumped out?

11       A.   I hid in the bushes not far from the house, maybe 20, 25 metres

12    away from it, and I was watching the house and fire.

13       Q.   Where was your mother at the time that you first saw the flames

14    break out inside the room?

15       A.   I didn't know anything about what was going on with her at the

16    time I jumped out.

17       Q.   Where was she the last time you saw her?

18       A.   We were together in the house, that is, in the house that was on

19    fire.  And then I never saw her again up until 1995.

20       Q.   And when was it -- the last time you saw her in that house?  At

21    what point in time did you last see her?

22       A.   I can't say exactly when that was because I was trying to get out.

23       Q.   You spoke earlier about going to the window the first time and

24    then coming back in.  Was it before or after that event?

25       A.   Before.

Page 1386

 1       Q.   Do you recall her saying anything to you at the time that this

 2    person screamed that, "They are burning us," or, "They are going to burn

 3    us"?  Did your mother say anything to you?

 4       A.   No, she didn't.

 5       Q.   Did you say anything to her?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Now, can you be more precise -- I'll withdraw that.  When you

 8    jumped outside the window of the house, was the house in flames at that

 9    point?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And did the light from those flames illuminate the area around the

12    house?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Were you able to see anybody outside the house at that time?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   And where did you go immediately after you jumped out of the

17    window of the house?

18       A.   I went behind the house.  I was in a bush there, and it was from

19    there that I watched the house burn and could hear people cry.  There was

20    shooting from automatic weapons as well.

21       Q.   Can you describe where you were in relation to the creek that runs

22    behind the house.

23       A.   I crossed over.  I crossed the creek.  There was a little bridge

24    there that I crossed.

25       Q.   And would you describe what the ground was like on the far side of

Page 1387












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1388

 1    the creek; whether it was flat, whether there was a hill?

 2       A.   There were some hills and houses around that area.  It was a

 3    populated area where both Serbs and Muslims lived, Croats as well.

 4       Q.   And you've described yourself as watching this fire.

 5    Approximately how far from the rear of this house are you at the point

 6    that you're watching this fire?

 7       A.   Twenty-five, maybe thirty metres away.

 8       Q.   Would you describe for us what you observed or -- sorry.

 9    Approximately how long did you stay there in that bush and watch the fire?

10       A.   For about half an hour.

11       Q.   And can you describe for us what you saw during that half an hour?

12       A.   I listened to their screams.  I could hear people cry, including

13    women and children, and I could see the house in flames.

14       Q.   During the time that you're watching this fire, did you think that

15    your mother was still in the house?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Did you think that your mother burned to death in that house that

18    night?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   When was it that you found out that your mother had escaped the

21    house that night?

22       A. [redacted].

23       Q.   So between 1992 and 1995, you believed that your mother had died

24    on the 14th of June?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1389

 1            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I'm going to ask that the

 2    witness be shown a black and white copy of Exhibit 17.1, and I would ask

 3    that it be introduced as Prosecution Exhibit Number 17.1.38 to indicate

 4    that this witness will be making some marks on it.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Let's wait until he's marked it.

 6            MR. GROOME:  Okay.

 7       Q.   Witness 38, I'm going to ask you to take the blue pen in front of

 8    you.

 9            MR. GROOME:  We'll leave it on the desk and have the witness make

10    the marks there.

11       Q.   If you'll take the blue pen, I would ask you to put "VG38" at the

12    bottom of that piece of paper to indicate that it's you that's making

13    these marks.

14       A.   [Marks]

15       Q.   I'd ask you to trace, with the blue marker, the path that the

16    group from Koritnik took on its way from Koritnik down to the place by the

17    bridge that you indicated.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Has there been any dispute about this with any

19    witness so far?

20            MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  I'm going to ask him to mark one of

21    the events that happened on that path.  Does Your Honour wish us to move

22    on?

23            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm not sure.  Is there a dispute about this

24    particular event that you want him to show?  It's not something you have

25    to do with every witness.  There's been no dispute, so far as I have

Page 1390

 1    ascertained, to the description of how they arrived in Visegrad.

 2            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  We don't really need to repeat that with every

 4    witness.  That's the point about getting on with the case.  If there is an

 5    event that there is no evidence about or you want to add to something, by

 6    all means, let's go straight to it.

 7            MR. GROOME:

 8       Q.   Witness 38, I'd ask you to put "MV1" and a circle to indicate

 9    where it was you saw Mitar Vasiljevic the first time that day.

10       A.   [Marks]

11       Q.   I'd ask you -- I'll have you make a few marks before we put it on

12    the ELMO.  I'd ask you to indicate where it was that this machine-gun was

13    mounted on the car as you crossed the bridge.

14       A.   [Marks]

15       Q.   Now I'd ask you to take the red pen, and would you trace the route

16    that you describe Mitar Vasiljevic as having led the group of people into

17    the area known as "Nova Mahala."

18       A.   [Marks]

19            MR. GROOME:  At this time, I would ask that the usher place the

20    exhibit on the ELMO.  Your Honour, at this time I would tender 17.1 into

21    evidence as 17.1.38.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

23            MR. DOMAZET:  No, Your Honour.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  It will be Exhibit P17-1-VG38.

25            MR. GROOME:  Now I'd ask the witness be shown a black and white

Page 1391

 1    copy of Prosecution Number 17.3.  I'd ask it be placed on the desk.

 2       Q.   I'd ask you to take the red pen and put "VG38" to indicate that

 3    you're the person drawing on this photograph.

 4       A.   [Marks]

 5       Q.   I'd ask you to put a number "1" on the roof of the house that

 6    you're describing as Jusuf Memic's.

 7       A.   [Marks]

 8       Q.   And I'd ask you to put an arrow to show us where the door is on

 9    that house.

10       A.   [Marks]

11       Q.   I'd ask you to put a "2" on the roof of the house that belongs to

12    his son.

13       A.   [Marks]

14       Q.   And an arrow to indicate where the door on that house is.

15       A.   [Marks]

16       Q.   And I'd ask you to put a "3" on the house that was ultimately set

17    on fire.

18       A.   [Marks]

19       Q.   And I'd ask you to put an arrow to indicate where the door is on

20    that house.

21       A.   [Marks]

22       Q.   I'd ask you now to put an "MV2" to indicate where is the first

23    place that you saw Mr. Vasiljevic up in this area on this day.

24       A.   [Marks]

25       Q.   I'd ask you now to put "MV3" to indicate where Mr. Vasiljevic was

Page 1392

 1    the next time you saw him up in the Pionirska Street area.

 2       A.   [Marks]

 3       Q.   And finally, I'd ask you to show us or trace in red the path that

 4    you took into the house from House Number 1 to House Number 3.

 5       A.   [Marks]

 6            MR. GROOME:  I'd ask that that now be placed on the ELMO.  Your

 7    Honour, at this time I would tender 17.3 as 17.3.38 into evidence.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  I don't know why you do this for us if we can't see

 9    it.  The other one didn't seem to have very much interest to it, but this

10    one is important.  I can see "1," I think I can see a "3."  Perhaps we

11    could use a pointer and then we'll see where this witness has made these

12    marks.

13            MR. GROOME:

14       Q.   I would ask the witness take the pointer.  I would ask you to

15    point to House Number 1.

16       A.   [Indicates]

17       Q.   Now point to the house that you've marked as House Number 2.

18       A.   [Indicates]

19       Q.   And House Number 3.

20       A.   [Indicates]

21       Q.   Where is the door on House Number 1?

22       A.   In the area above.

23       Q.   And where is the door on House Number 2?

24       A.   Here, from the entrance from the street.

25       Q.   Now, can you point to where you've made the mark "MV2."

Page 1393

 1       A.   In front of the door of the house of Jusuf Memic.

 2       Q.   And where did you make the mark "MV3"?

 3       A.   No, I didn't.  I didn't mark it.

 4            MR. GROOME:  Okay.  I would ask the document be placed on the desk

 5    again.

 6       Q.   Do you need to make a correction to what you've done?

 7       A.   No, everything is okay.  It is that "MV3" -- you told me about MV1

 8    and MV2.

 9       Q.   Point to -- where is the first place you saw Mitar Vasiljevic in

10    this area of Visegrad on this day?  Can you point to where that is?

11       A.   [Indicates]

12       Q.   And what number did you put in that, "MV" what?  Without leaning

13    over.

14       A.  "MV2."

15       Q.   Can you point once again to the first place you saw Mitar

16    Vasiljevic that day.

17       A.   [Indicates]

18       Q.   And what have you written in there to indicate that?

19       A.  "MV1."

20       Q.   Where is the second place that you saw Mitar Vasiljevic that day?

21    Can you point to that for us?

22       A.   [Indicates]

23       Q.   And what have you written there to indicate that?

24       A.  "MV2."

25       Q.   Now I'd ask you just to trace very slowly the path that you took

Page 1394

 1    from the house marked number "1" to the house marked number "3."

 2       A.   [Indicates]

 3            MR. GROOME:  Thank you.  Your Honour, at this time, I would

 4    re-tender that exhibit.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

 6            MR. DOMAZET:  No, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  Exhibit P17-3-VG38.

 8            MR. GROOME:  I'd now ask that Prosecution Number 17.7 be placed on

 9    the desk in front of the witness.

10       Q.   VG38, I would ask you once again to write "VG38" at the bottom of

11    that document.

12       A.   [Marks]

13       Q.   And I'd ask you to circle the window that you testified you jumped

14    out of.

15       A.   [Marks]

16            MR. GROOME:  And I'd ask that that be placed on the ELMO.  Your

17    Honour, at this time I would tender that into evidence as Prosecution

18    17.7.VG38.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

20            MR. DOMAZET:  No, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  That will be Exhibit P17-7-VG38.

22            MR. GROOME:  And finally I would ask that the Prosecution

23    Document Number 17.14.VG38 be placed before the witness.

24       Q.   And once again, I would ask the witness to write "VG38" at the

25    bottom of that photograph.

Page 1395

 1       A.   [Marks]

 2       Q.   The place that you hid in the bush and watched the fire, is that

 3    on this photograph or can you find it on this photograph?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   I'd ask you to put a circle and put "VG38" inside that circle to

 6    indicate for us where it was you hid and watched the fire from.

 7       A.   [Marks]

 8            MR. GROOME:  And I would now ask that that be placed on the ELMO.

 9       Q.   I would ask you to take the pointer and indicate for us where you

10    have made the mark.

11       A.  [Indicates]

12       Q.   And I would ask you now to point to the house that was set on

13    fire.

14       A.   [Indicates]

15            MR. GROOME:  Thank you.  Your Honour, I would like to tender that

16    into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 17.14.VG38.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

18            MR. DOMAZET:  No, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  That will be Exhibit P17-14-VG38.

20            MR. GROOME:  I have no further questions.  Thank you, VG38.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Domazet.

22                          Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:

23       Q.  [Interpretation] Mr. VG38, at the relevant times, you said you were

24    about [redacted]; is that right?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1396

 1       Q.   You attended the primary school in [redacted]?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Only that particular year or had you attended that school even

 4    before?

 5       A.   From the [redacted]

 6    [redacted].

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Sir, when you are dealing with questions coming from

 8    your left, from Mr. Domazet there, you are both speaking the same

 9    language.  Both the questions and the answers have to be interpreted into

10    English and into French.  The interpreters have a great deal of difficulty

11    if you don't pause before you start your answer because they are still

12    interpreting the question.  So just wait a few seconds before you answer

13    the question, just as Mr. Domazet will be waiting an appreciable time

14    before he starts the question.  Do you understand that?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

16            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   So that year, you were in the [redacted]?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   In your school or in your class, were there both Muslim and Serb

20    students or was only one community represented?

21       A.   There were both Muslims and Serbs.

22       Q.   During that particular school year in 1992, was the situation any

23    different from previous years or was it the case that some of your

24    colleagues had already left the school?  Do you remember that?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1397

 1       Q.   Do you remember the reason why?  And who was it that left; Serbs,

 2    or Muslims, or both?

 3       A.   Muslims were the first ones to leave, and later on, I don't know

 4    about the Serbs.

 5       Q.   [No interpretation]

 6       A.   Some 15 days before the Uzice Corps entered Visegrad.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Just one moment.  We never got an interpretation of

 8    your question.  If you tell us what your question was, it will help us to

 9    understand the answer.

10            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] "When did this happen?  When did the

11    majority of students leave school?"  That was my question.

12       Q.   Did you, sir, leave school then too?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And from that time on, you were in your village, Koritnik; is that

15    right or not?

16       A.   Yes, I was in the village.

17       Q.   When you talked about leaving the village -- actually, prior to

18    leaving the village, asked by Mr. Groome what happened on the 13th of

19    June, you said that some Serbs came to the village and that this was a

20    question that was discussed.  How do you know that it was the 13th of

21    June?

22       A.   Well, I won't forget the 13th and 14th for as long as I live.

23       Q.   Yes, I can well believe that.  I know you have every reason to

24    remember those dates.  But I'm asking you:  How come you remembered that

25    it was the 13th the day before and the 14th the day after, and the time

Page 1398

 1    you left?

 2       A.   Can you repeat that, please?  I don't follow.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet, it might be simpler if you look at it

 4    from this point of view:  Even if he was told later what the date was, it

 5    doesn't matter, does it?  Is the point you're trying to ask him:  Was it

 6    only the day before that he left, the day before the fire?

 7            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  May I suggest you approach it from that point of

 9    view, because the question is confusing, if I may say so.

10            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

11       Q.   I'm asking, because in the statement you gave to the

12    investigator -- and you were interviewed by the investigators of this

13    Tribunal; is that correct?

14       A.   Yes, it is.

15       Q.   In that statement, you say up until the 14th of June, you were

16    hiding in the village, and that a day later you moved to Visegrad, which

17    is a little different from what you said today.  And that's why I asked

18    you what the date was or whether you were able to remember the date on the

19    basis of something or, as Judge Hunt said, somebody perhaps told you that

20    date later on?

21       A.   No, sir.  The date, the 13th, was when we left the village, and

22    the 14th -- that is to say, we were in the village on the 13th, and on the

23    14th we were set fire to.

24       Q.   And you're sure that was the 14th?

25       A.   Sure.

Page 1399

 1       Q.   Do you perhaps remember what day of the week that 14th was?

 2       A.   It was Monday.

 3       Q.   When you spoke about what went on before that at the stadium, that

 4    was quite a bit before that date, wasn't it?

 5       A.   Yes.  It was in April.  Whether it was the 16th or not, 15th or

 6    16th, I don't remember.

 7       Q.   Was it an occasion when a large number of inhabitants were

 8    gathered together, they had come from all parts, and some of the JNA -- a

 9    JNA officer held a speech, addressed them, and said that they should all

10    return to Visegrad; do you remember that?

11       A.   Yes, I remember Jovanovic making a speech, saying that all Muslims

12    should return to Visegrad because, as he put it, allegedly they could live

13    safely there.  But when they went back, that was the worst time in

14    Visegrad, the worst killings.

15       Q.   When you say "the worst killings in Visegrad," are you referring

16    to the period when the JNA was in Visegrad or after the JNA had left

17    Visegrad?

18       A.   No, after the Uzice Corps had left, and this was -- the

19    perpetrators were the local Serbs.

20       Q.   Do you remember what happened after that meeting/rally at the

21    stadium?  You said today that at the Drina Hotel at the stadium itself,

22    that you went there.  Is that a hotel or is it something else?

23       A.   It's a hotel.

24       Q.   You said today that you stayed in that hotel for 15 days?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 1400

 1       Q.   You told the investigator of the OTP that on the following day,

 2    the day after, that is, that you were taken, accompanied by the Uzice

 3    Corps soldiers, to the village?

 4       A.   No, that's not true.

 5       Q.   It says so in your statement.  But you claim that that's not

 6    correct?

 7       A.   No, sir.  Some returned, others stayed.

 8       Q.   The ones that stayed at the stadium - and you were among them -

 9    did they stay of their own free will or were they kept there by the JNA,

10    the army?

11       A.   No, sir.  They were not safe where they lived in the surrounding

12    villages around Visegrad, and that's why they didn't dare go back.

13       Q.   Yes.  So that's why they stayed of their own free will.  Nobody

14    was compelled to stay, was forced to stay?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   When you spoke about your journey from the village to Visegrad,

17    you mentioned that three buses -- as many as three buses passed by you,

18    and you identified the people as being the inhabitants from Vlahovici

19    village.  How do you know they were from Vlahovici village?

20       A.   As far as I was able to understand, the buses didn't stop at all.

21    Yes, a woman got on - she was almost 90 - and she went off with these

22    other people.  She was from the village of Vlahovici, and she's still

23    alive.

24       Q.   So a bus stopped for this woman to get on, and that's when you

25    learnt that the people were from Vlahovici; is that right?  Have I

Page 1401












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1402

 1    understood you correctly?

 2       A.   Yes, that's right.

 3       Q.   In Sase, you were joined, as you said, by about 10 to 13 people?

 4       A.   Yes, that's right.

 5       Q.   You said that you knew one of these individuals.  Did you know the

 6    others and, if so, how long had you known them for and how did you come to

 7    know them?

 8       A.   I knew one person, and I knew another person, too, because it was

 9    a relative of mine.  We were related.

10       Q.   You reached Visegrad sometime after 12.00, you say that it was

11    about 12.30 or thereabouts, and you came to in front of the hotel.  You

12    said that Milorad Lipovac came to the hotel with you and that he stepped

13    aside to talk to Mitar Vasiljevic for about ten minutes; is that right?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Was that straight after you arrived at the hotel?  Was Lipovac the

16    first person to approach that man, the one you identified as being Mitar

17    Vasiljevic?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Were you able to hear their conversation?  Did you hear what they

20    were talking about?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Did Lipovac leave after that?  Did you see him at all after his

23    coming to in front of the hotel?

24       A.   No, I didn't see him.

25       Q.   Did Lipovac say anything, tell you anything before he left?

Page 1403

 1       A.   No, he didn't.

 2       Q.   When you described the person you say you identified as Mitar

 3    Vasiljevic, you said that he had a black hat and a black uniform on.

 4    That's what you said today.

 5       A.   Yes, I did.

 6       Q.   What do you mean by "a black uniform"?  Because I myself don't

 7    know that uniforms like that existed, if you're referring to a military

 8    uniform.

 9       A.   It was a military uniform, but I don't know what it actually

10    represented.

11       Q.   So you think it was a military uniform and the colour was black?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Do you happen to remember what he had on his feet?

14       A.   I can't remember.

15       Q.   What about the other people who were there, the Serb policemen, if

16    they were there?  Did they say where you ought to go and was Bikavac

17    mentioned as a possible location?

18       A.   No, Bikavac wasn't mentioned; just Nova Mahala, the New Mahala.

19       Q.   When you say "Nova Mahala," can you explain to the Court what you

20    mean?  Which part of Visegrad was that?

21       A.   It's a settlement called Mahala and it's actually Pionirska

22    Street.

23       Q.   Isn't the Mahala settlement a settlement below Pionirska Street?

24    The part up until the beginning of Pionirska Street, isn't that what they

25    call Mahala?

Page 1404

 1       A.   Could you repeat that, please?

 2       Q.   Isn't Mahala part of Visegrad which is below Pionirska Street,

 3    where Pionirska Street begins, next to the Cadjava cafe, that part of

 4    Visegrad, and not the upper part, which is Pionirska street?

 5       A.   I couldn't really answer that.

 6       Q.   Asked by Mr. Groome about the new hotel and the distance from the

 7    old bridge, I think you said that you couldn't determine that distance

 8    because you were much younger then and didn't know.  I think you said

 9    something like that.  Does that mean that you didn't go into that part of

10    town often for you to be able to tell us now the details of that?

11       A.   I think it's by the bridge, that the hotel is by the bridge.  And

12    I went around Visegrad enough, because I went to school there, so I knew

13    it sufficiently well.  I didn't actually know the streets and their names

14    very well, but I knew the town.

15       Q.   Is there anything that lies between the bridge and the hotel?

16       A.   Yes.  There's a garden.

17       Q.   Is there anything opposite the gardens?

18       A.   There's a monument to a writer, Ivo Andric.

19       Q.   Did it exist -- did the monument exist while you were there?

20       A.   Yes.  Well, I don't actually know whether it did or didn't.

21       Q.   When you went towards the Mahala or Pionirska Street, we have

22    established the direction you took.  You said today that Mitar Vasiljevic

23    accompanied the column; is that right?

24       A.   Yes, that's right.  Mitar Vasiljevic did go with us.

25       Q.   Did anybody else accompany the column, of the people who were not

Page 1405

 1    of the column, who were not from Visegrad and Sase?

 2       A.   No.  There was just Mitar Vasiljevic.

 3       Q.   So only he accompanied you and went from the hotel to the Memic

 4    house?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   When you reached Memic's house, you said that Mitar Vasiljevic

 7    wrote something down on an ordinary piece of paper which you couldn't see

 8    or read.  Did you happen to see the writing itself or did you just hear

 9    about the existence of a piece of paper?

10       A.   I saw him when he was writing it down, but I didn't know what he

11    was writing down.  And he gave the piece of paper to [redacted].

12       Q.   Where did this happen?  Where did this take place?

13       A.   In front of Jusuf Memic's house.

14       Q.   Who did you see?  Who was present there when he wrote this down?

15       A. [redacted] was present.

16       Q.   So the two of them, [redacted] and Mitar Vasiljevic; is that

17    right?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   How far were they from you and the others?

20       A.   The other people were in the house, and we were separated some 10

21    to 15 metres.

22       Q.   Were the two of them standing or were they sitting down?

23       A.   They were standing.

24       Q.   Did you happen to notice how long they were standing and talking

25    and whether that was the only place they stood and talked?

Page 1406

 1       A.   I can't really say how long they were standing there for and

 2    talking.  I don't know.  I simply don't know.  All I do know is that they

 3    were talking and he wrote on this piece of paper.  And what he wrote was:

 4    "If anybody comes to touch you, just show them the piece of paper."

 5       Q.   Did you happen to notice them doing anything else apart from

 6    talking and this person writing down on a piece of paper?

 7       A.   No, I didn't.

 8       Q.   Did you happen to notice a bottle in either of these persons'

 9    hands?  Were they drinking anything from a bottle perhaps?

10       A. (redacted) was an alcoholic.  Probably they were -- he gave him some

11    brandy to drink.

12       Q.   So as far as you remember, they were drinking something, but I'm

13    sure you didn't pay much attention to that; is that right?

14       A   Yes, that's right.

15       Q   Did this conversation with (redacted) take place immediately after

16    your arrival and after you were put up in the Memic house?

17       A.   Well, I couldn't say.

18       Q.   You can't remember how much time went by from the time you arrived

19    to the time you saw them, the two of them talking?

20       A.   No, I can't say.

21       Q.   Did you see them separate after that?

22       A.   No.  I went into the house.

23       Q.   Did [redacted] go into the house later as well?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Without Mitar Vasiljevic?

Page 1407

 1       A.   That's right, without Mitar Vasiljevic.

 2       Q.   From that moment on, did you see Mitar Vasiljevic at all?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   Do you remember anything else that would have been characteristic

 5    that you would remember, any other event that took place before you went

 6    into the house which would catch your attention in any way?

 7       A.   Well, yes.  In the meantime, a woman went out to look into the

 8    house at that Mahala place, and she found two people slaughtered there,

 9    with their throats slit, from Koritnik, and we knew who they were and what

10    they were.

11       Q.   So that was in the house where you -- I'm asking you about the

12    house where you were.  Did anybody come and take anybody away from that

13    house?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Who, and what happened?

16       A.   Mitar Vasiljevic was outside.

17       Q.   You're now talking about the other event when you say that the

18    four men turned up; is that right?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   But I'm referring to before that.  Did anybody come before that

21    and take any other people out of the house?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   What about the people you said were found in this other house?

24    And if I understood you, you said they had been slaughtered, their throats

25    slit.

Page 1408

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   It was a married couple; they had been found with their throats

 3    slit.  Is that it?

 4       A.   No, they weren't a married couple.  It was an elderly man and an

 5    elderly woman.

 6       Q.   Do you know who they were?

 7       A.   I do.

 8       Q.   Can you tell us their names or surnames?

 9       A.   Seco Kurspahic and Rasema Kurspahic.

10       Q.   I'd like now to ask you about the second event, focus on the

11    second event, when you saw Mitar Vasiljevic for the second time, when you

12    say that four men turned up and you gave us their names:  Milan Lukic;

13    Sredoje Lukic; Milan Susnjar, nicknamed Laco; and Mitar Vasiljevic.  Is

14    that right; they were the four men?

15       A.   Yes, that's right.

16       Q.   As we have descriptions of these men by witnesses, and apart from

17    Milan, who most people know on the basis of some other characteristics,

18    they spoke about a tall, fair man in the group.  Who would you say was

19    this tall, fair or blond person, a tall, fair guy?

20       A.   No, he wasn't tall and fair, sir.

21       Q.   Of those four men, none of them you would describe as tall and

22    fair; is that right?

23       A.   No, I wouldn't.

24       Q.   Did anybody have a moustache?

25       A.   Yes.  It was Milan Susnjar.

Page 1409

 1       Q.   And was there someone who was very young, a young person of 18,

 2    19?

 3       A.   No.  As far as I was able to see, no.

 4       Q.   There was nobody like that amongst those four men?

 5       A.   No, sir, I didn't see anybody like that.

 6       Q.   Could you -- you explained to us how you knew the names of those

 7    men, and you said that you knew some of them.  Now, at that time, straight

 8    away, immediately, while they were there, did you know their names, or did

 9    you learn of their names later on?

10       A.   There were people there who knew all four of them, and that's when

11    we learnt their names, when they took the money and gold, whereas they

12    knew Mitar, some of them knew Mitar from before, Milan Lukic, that is.

13    They knew him from before.  Milan Susnjar as well, Laco, from the village,

14    and Sredoje.

15       Q.   The people who knew Susnjar, what did they say?  Who and what was

16    he?

17       A.   As far as I heard, he was a baker.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet, this is going to be a long subject, I

19    think, and it's now 4.00.  So we'll adjourn - I hope I get it right this

20    time - until 9.30 tomorrow.

21                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.01 p.m.,

22                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of October,

23                          2001, at 9.30 a.m.