Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2135

 1                          Monday, 12 November 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet, we've got your timetable for this week.

 6    Bearing in mind the particular witnesses that you're calling are dealing

 7    with a very narrow issue, I hope you have more witnesses than this

 8    available for this week.

 9            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I know, the

10    witnesses that I have listed have come to The Hague.  There is the

11    possibility of -- namely, if you consider that we will get through those

12    witnesses before Friday, there is the possibility that the witnesses which

13    were scheduled for next week could come in this week, but I think that the

14    witnesses I have on the list for this week will take up until the end of

15    the week.  I don't think there'll be any gaps.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Perhaps we might review this by the end of Tuesday,

17    but I did say to you I would prefer to have some witnesses sitting around

18    enjoying the delights of the Netherlands weather over the weekend than for

19    us to be sitting down doing nothing.  We do want to keep going.

20            So by tomorrow afternoon we'll see how your proposed timetable is

21    going.  I know that Mr. Groome has been very long with your client, but,

22    then, he is the defendant, and I would not expect him to be otherwise, but

23    I hope that he won't be nearly so long with anybody else.  And I suspect

24    that the nature of the evidence that these witnesses are giving is

25    something which can be dealt with, with all the detail necessary, within a

Page 2136

 1    fairly short time, but let's see how we go.

 2            Now, Mr. Vasiljevic, you understand, do you, you are still bound

 3    by the solemn declaration that you took before we adjourned?

 4            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 5                          WITNESS:  MITAR VASILJEVIC [Resumed]

 6                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome.

 8            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  You did promise it won't be very long.

10            MR. GROOME:  I expect to be finished today, Your Honour.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  You were talking about something like an hour, I

12    thought you said.

13            MR. GROOME:  I would have to check the -- review the record to see

14    exactly what I said, but I imagine I would be a bit more than an hour.

15            Your Honour, I'm going to begin with referring to the pseudonym

16    sheet.  I don't know if the Court has them handy.  I have some extra

17    copies here.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  The accused will need one because they don't

19    seem to let him keep it.

20            MR. GROOME:  I have some additional copies for the Court if it

21    requires.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  It might be just as well.

23                          Cross-examined by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

24       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, I would like to begin today by going back to

25    Exhibit D22, and that is the list that you wrote on your second day of

Page 2137

 1    testimony, and you told us that you would prefer to refer to these people

 2    by a code number rather than use their name when you testified about

 3    them.

 4            Now, some of the names on that list we have not heard you tell us

 5    about, how it is they fit into this story, and I would like to ask you

 6    that now.

 7            VGD11.  I'd ask you to look at D22.  Can you tell us, how is it

 8    that VGD11 fits into your account of what happened?

 9       A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I will explain this to you.  If I may, may I just

10    make some comments with respect to the statement, for example, of -- I

11    can't see it.  I apologise.  I can't find that particular person.

12            If I may, Mr. Prosecutor, may I make some comments.

13       Q.   Well, Mr. Domazet will have an opportunity to ask you some

14    questions to clarify any matter.  What I'm asking you now is with respect

15    to VGD11.  Do you have Defence Exhibit 22 in front of you?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Can you tell us how it is VGD11 -- what part does he play in your

18    account of what happened in matters related to this indictment?

19       A.   VG11 is [redacted] and I will tell you something a

20    little bit later on, but I would have to do so in a closed session or

21    private or whatever you call it, but as [redacted].

22    [redacted].  So I don't wish to mention the names.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, Mr. Groome, that's fairly obvious, if he said

24    he didn't want to speak about them in public.  If you want him to speak

25    about them, he'll have to speak in private.

Page 2138

 1            MR. GROOME:  Let me just ask one question to see if it is

 2    necessary, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  Certainly.

 4            MR. GROOME:

 5       Q.   Is the information you want to tell us about these two men, does

 6    it have anything to do with the matters that are now before the Court or

 7    is it some other information?

 8       A.   Nothing with respect to VG10, but I could say something with

 9    respect to VG11.

10            MR. GROOME:  Recognising that, I would ask then that we go into

11    private session to discuss VGD11.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  We'll go into private session, please.

13                          [Private session]

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24                          [Open session]

25            JUDGE HUNT:  We are now in public session.

Page 2142

 1            MR. GROOME:

 2       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, you just said something that I want to clarify

 3    what you meant on the record.  And in -- with respect to person number 21,

 4    VGD21, you stated the following:  "21 gave me that and he told me to set

 5    the house on fire."  What house are you referring to?

 6       A.   No, he said that I had set the house on -- he gave me a cassette

 7    and the house was at Bikovac.  On the cassette, that's what it says.

 8    That's what it says on the cassette, and he was mentioned, and number

 9    20 -- 20 and 21, that they had taken part in the execution of Muslims at

10    Rogatica.  That's what it's about.  And it also -- that is to say the

11    Muslim says how Milan Lukic brought them in and they were beaten and

12    looted and all that kind of thing.

13            And then at the end of that cassette, the reporter, the journalist

14    in the programme says, and another mass crime took place in Visad at the

15    place called Bikovac where Mitar Vasiljevic, Momir Savic, and Zoran

16    Sekulic set fire to a house full of Muslims.  That's what it says, the

17    reporter says on the cassette, and that's how I learnt about the house at

18    Bikovac, through that programme and cassette of it.

19       Q.   You've just told us that VGD17, 18, and 19 were police officers

20    that were suspended from the police force.  Are they among the group of

21    police officers that were taken into custody with VGD10?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic --

24       A.   No, not only, not only -- no, 19 wasn't.

25       Q.   So 17 and 18.

Page 2143

 1       A.   And 10.

 2       Q.   All right.  I want to ask you a couple of questions about your

 3    criminal record.  You testified on direct examination that you were

 4    arrested and spent six months in gaol; is that correct?

 5       A.   Five.

 6       Q.   Can you tell us what exactly it was that you did that you were

 7    convicted of?

 8       A.   We were singing national songs.

 9       Q.   And where, exactly were you, when you were singing these

10    nationalist songs?

11       A.   In the village of Koritnik.  We went to a shop, we drank and that

12    kind of thing.

13       Q.   And would I be correct in saying that the songs that you were

14    singing would be intimidating or frightful to Muslims?

15       A.   No, they weren't frightening.  Let me tell you this too, yes, we

16    did sing those songs but we weren't singing what -- and they testified to

17    this later on -- they made this seem more serious.  That's why we were

18    given prison terms.  Otherwise, the songs -- you weren't allowed to sing

19    those songs in the socialist system either, and those didn't harm anybody

20    and I could have shut up thousands of people, because I worked in cafes

21    and restaurants, for singing similar songs but I didn't do that to anyone,

22    whereas me and the five of us or, rather, two of us because the rest were

23    minors, they had -- they went to gaol for 12 days but the two of us went

24    to gaol for six months and me for five.

25       Q.   You said that it was in front of a store.  Was that store owned by

Page 2144

 1    Muslim people?

 2       A.   No, no, it wasn't in front of a store.  We left the village.  It

 3    was when we went to Livade, and the shop was socially owned.  There was no

 4    private property at the time, it was socially-owned shop as we used to

 5    call it.  They were all socially owned.

 6       Q.   Well, did the police observe you engage in this conduct or did

 7    Muslims or did somebody make a complaint against you to the police?

 8       A.   Well, some of them did report it.  And the postman brought us

 9    notes, and we went to the police station, and the magistrate sentenced us

10    to two months.  We received a summons by the -- from the postman.  Then we

11    went to the regular court and were given five months, and the two months

12    that we had already spent in custody were deducted from the final

13    sentence.

14       Q.   So Muslims, or at least a Muslim, reported your conduct to the

15    police.  Is that what you're saying?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And it sounds from your comments here this morning that you feel

18    that your sentence was unduly harsh for the conduct that you engaged in;

19    is that correct?

20       A.   It's like this:  The court is the court, and the court makes its

21    decisions.  Later on, it was even more dangerous to do something like

22    that, and the sentences were even harsher later on.  So perhaps as we were

23    first offenders, that was a mitigating circumstance.

24       Q.   Well, I'd like to read you the charge that you were convicted of

25    and ask you a question.

Page 2145

 1            "Article 119:  "Whoever with propaganda or otherwise provocates or

 2    fans national, racial, or religious hatred or discord between the peoples

 3    and nationalities living in Yugoslavia shall be punished with severe

 4    imprisonment of up to 12 years."

 5            So in fact, you could have received a sentence of up to 12 years

 6    for the crime you were convicted of; is that correct?

 7       A.   Well, it wasn't a crime, it was songs.  And nobody was ever

 8    sentenced that much for songs.  You'd have to do something far more

 9    drastic to merit a 12-year sentence.  You'd have to be working against the

10    state.  But this was just singing under the effects of alcohol.  We had

11    been drinking.  I don't know how to explain this to you.  I couldn't have

12    got 12 years.  How would I get 12 years for something like that?

13       Q.   I want to now move to what happened on Pionirska Street.  Now, you

14    are very familiar with the allegations against both yourself, Milan Lukic,

15    and some of the other men.  And in your statement of the 16th of November

16    last year, you stated that you believed the allegations against Milan

17    Lukic were true.

18            Do you still believe that those allegations are true regarding

19    Milan Lukic as you sit here today?

20       A.   I still do.  I always do.

21       Q.   And why is it that you believe that the allegations are true

22    regarding Milan Lukic and his men?

23       A.   Let me tell you this way:  Now they're mentioning me in Pionirska

24    Street.  I have now -- not aware of that at all.  Let me -- I've already

25    said - let me repeat - I broke my leg on that day.  I have no idea that

Page 2146

 1    Milan did that, or Bikovac or Pionirska or any of that.  I never knew any

 2    of that.  But witnesses have testified to that.  Well, how do I know?

 3    They mention him all the time, about the train and about Srebrenica and --

 4    I was present in Sase by the river when the crime took place.  In many,

 5    many ways he is mentioned.  He's mentioned in connection with rape,

 6    looting and plundering, killing.  Now that they mention me in Pionirska

 7    Street and Bikovac.  I don't know.  I will prove the contrary with respect

 8    to Pionirska.

 9       Q.   You've heard a number of witnesses identify Milan Lukic as being

10    present at the actual time that the fire was set on Pionirska Street.  Do

11    you believe that any of these people were mistaken regarding Milan Lukic's

12    presence there that night?

13       A.   What can I say?  What can I tell you?  They place me there.  Now,

14    had I been in any way, had I seen, I would have told you.  That's as far

15    as I go.

16            Now, I don't want to mention only him, but Sagolje [phoen] as

17    well.  But I can't tell you anything about that, anything exact.  About

18    5.00 I broke my leg, and I was not able to be there physically.  I was in

19    no condition to be there.

20       Q.   Well, Mr. Vasiljevic, let's go to the beginning of the day.

21    You've testified that at some point in the day, somebody told you about a

22    horse.  Can you tell us who it was that told you about this horse?

23       A.   An elderly man, Mimo Ristanovic who lives in Pionirska, up there,

24    too.  And my house is close by to the house where the Muslims were, the

25    first time where they looted and plundered them, in that same street

Page 2147

 1    nearby.

 2       Q.   And --

 3       A.   Just a moment, please.  He is a neighbour of the person who left,

 4    whose horse -- who was the owner of the horse.

 5       Q.   And would we be able to speak to Mimo Ristanovic today to verify

 6    whether or not he told you about this horse on that day?

 7       A.   Mimo Ristanovic died.  He was an elderly man.  I think he died

 8    after the war.

 9       Q.   A few weeks ago, you told us about Dragan Tomic and how you told

10    him about what happened by the river.  Would we be able to talk to Dragan

11    Tomic today to verify whether or not you did tell him what happened at the

12    river?

13       A.   I've already told you that Dragan Tomic was killed.  His car hit a

14    mine.  And the two of them are mentioned.  He was the chief of police.

15       Q.   Where was Mr. Ristanovic when he told you --

16       A.   In Visegrad.  Sorry.

17       Q.   Where was Mr. Ristanovic when he told you about this horse?

18       A.   I was in town.  It happened in town.  He asked me whether I know

19    somebody who would take the horse, because nobody wanted the horse.  And I

20    said, "Well, I'll come, and we'll take the horse up towards Drinsko and

21    somebody will take it.  Somebody needs the horse in rural areas on the

22    farm."

23       Q.   Approximately what time did this conversation take place?

24       A.   Well, perhaps 1.00 or 2.00 in the afternoon, thereabouts.

25       Q.   And the person who owned this horse, was it a Muslim?

Page 2148

 1       A.   Yes.  He had left to Kladanj, I think, or Kakanj perhaps.

 2       Q.   And do you know his name?

 3       A.   I don't.  He was an elderly man, and all that I know is what he

 4    said, that he -- he took that horse often when he went to the mosque,

 5    because he was a practising believer.

 6       Q.   Had you seen this horse before?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Now, Mr. Ristanovic, did he give you any details about the horse

 9    or did he simply tell you about this horse that had been left behind?

10       A.   Well, he said that the horse was there.  "It's a good horse, it's

11    quiet, and it will be good if somebody took it."  So something to that

12    effect.

13       Q.   Was it your intention to sell the horse?

14       A.   Why, no.  Nobody'd buy it.  And what could I ask for it?  I mean,

15    had he been able to sell it, somebody else would have bought it, surely.

16       Q.   Were you able to go up and retrieve this horse?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And can you tell us more precisely, what exactly was your

19    intention?  What were you going to do with the horse once you retrieved

20    it?

21       A.   I would have taken it uphill.  I liked horses when I was a child,

22    and I often rode horses when I was a child.  I even broke my head once

23    when I was a child, went to the hospital.  And you know, I was born in a

24    village, and I even bought books about horses, about horse training and

25    horse riding for my -- and I worked with horses during summer holidays

Page 2149

 1    with my sister and I.  You know, those were hard times so that we had to

 2    earn some money.  And as a child, I worked with horses, and I like

 3    horses.

 4       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, my question is:  What was your intention?  What

 5    were you going to do with this horse once you got the horse?  What were

 6    you going to do with it?

 7       A.   I wanted to send it to the village of Drinsko, to take it to the

 8    old railway tracks, because there is a lot of grass there.  This is an old

 9    railway track which was out of use, and I thought that in the village --

10    in that village there would be somebody who would be willing to take that

11    horse, because in the town, of course, I couldn't find a customer.

12       Q.   So it was your intention to leave this horse by a set of abandoned

13    railroad tracks, hoping that the horse would walk along those railroad

14    tracks to another village where hopefully somebody would find the horse

15    and take care of the horse?  Is that your testimony?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And is there any particular reason why you thought that this horse

18    would walk along these railroad tracks?

19       A.   Well, of course when you come out of the inhabited area, because

20    up there, there are meadows and there's woods.  People would release

21    horses like that.  And especially when I was a child.  You could always

22    find horses grazing around.

23       Q.   And the village that you thought the horse would walk towards,

24    that was a Muslim village in free territory; is that correct?

25       A.   It was both Muslim and a Serb village.  It was a mixed village up

Page 2150

 1    there.  Drinsko is sort of a neighbourhood community including several

 2    villages.  Just as you have Prelovo is a neighbourhood community, and

 3    there were several villages making a part of it.  So Drinsko was a kind of

 4    a centre.  I mean, there was the local school, the local office.

 5       Q.   At this point in time, were Serbs still living in the village of

 6    Drinsko?

 7       A.   Well, Serbs have always lived there and stayed there.  Muslims

 8    left the village of Drinsko during the war.

 9       Q.   Now, this was a Sunday; correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And this wasn't just any Sunday.  In addition to this Sunday being

12    the fourth day of Kurban Bajram for Muslims, it was also an important

13    religious holiday for Serbs, was it not?

14       A.   Yes, that's right.

15       Q.   And it was the feast of the Holy Trinity; correct?

16       A.   It is.

17       Q.   Now, there are some Orthodox holidays which are more important

18    than others; is that correct?

19       A.   You mean than the Holy Trinity?

20       Q.   Well, let me put it to you this way:  Would it be fair to say that

21    after Christmas and Easter, the feast of the Holy Trinity would be

22    considered one of the most important Orthodox holidays?

23       A.   I wouldn't really be able to say anything about that.  There are

24    many holidays, Slava for instance, family saints days.  There are a number

25    of them.  And I think that Holy Trinity is also the family holiday of some

Page 2151

 1    people.  That is when you take zito to the church.

 2            I don't know.  I mean, there are people who believe all that or

 3    just to offer a sacrifice, to pray so that thunder spares the harvest.  I

 4    don't know.  There are many holidays.  I think you are not supposed to

 5    build your house that day or something like that.

 6       Q.   On the feast of the Holy Trinity, it's actually a three-day

 7    holiday; is that correct?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And would I be correct in saying that on this particular Sunday,

10    most Orthodox Serbs would attend some service in an Orthodox church?

11       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Surely.

12       Q.   And on this holiday, it would be common for Serbs to bring a

13    family icon to the church to be blessed?  Would that be correct?

14       A.   Icons?  No.  You -- when you buy an icon, then you take it to the

15    church.  But why would I go from my home to the church carrying an icon?

16    There are icons in the church.  Except unless it's been consecrated.  You

17    can only take it to the priest to have it consecrated, and you don't need

18    a holiday to do that.  You can take your icon for that on any day of the

19    week.

20       Q.   Wouldn't it also be true that a family would prepare a special

21    meal on this particular Sunday?

22       A.   Well, let me put it this way:  The -- my family saint is

23    St. George's Day.  It is the 6th of May.  Yes.  You cook special dishes,

24    you invite guests, and so on and so forth.  So there are people who --

25    whose Slava is Holy Trinity.  I mean, every family has its own saint's

Page 2152

 1    day.  So that Holy Trinity is a Serb holiday as such, but there are also

 2    families who have taken that as their day.

 3       Q.   Would your wife have cooked a special Sunday meal or meal to

 4    celebrate this day?

 5       A.   Well, perhaps within the family.  But Holy Trinity was not our

 6    day, so that we wouldn't have any guests on that particular day.  It is a

 7    day marked by all Serbs.  But I told you that my day is the 6th of May --

 8    or rather, my father.  It was my father's Slavs, and when he died, it was

 9    my duty to mark that holiday.  And when my father was alive, it wasn't my

10    duty to mark that holiday.

11       Q.   You've just told us a few minutes ago that on this day, you're not

12    supposed to build your house.  Is there a -- are you not supposed to do

13    any work on the feast of the Holy Trinity or is it just house building

14    that is prohibited?

15       A.   No, no, no.  I wouldn't be supposed to do anything, to till the

16    land or build a house.  And those are the jobs.

17       Q.   Did you work on this day, this cleaning of the town that you told

18    us about in your testimony?

19       A.   Well, in the company, the enterprise you can do, you can work on

20    any holiday, but you can't, you don't do it at the house.  We used to work

21    on Christmas day and on once Slava, I mean, we went to work.  It's only

22    that at home you are not supposed to do anything, for instance, on

23    Christmas day or Easter or Holy Trinity or Slava.  That would be a sin to

24    do anything, to do any work at home, but not when you worked in a company,

25    not when you worked for an enterprise.  You've got to go to work.  You

Page 2153

 1    know, there are so many holidays, nobody would work if companies didn't

 2    work on those holidays, and we had to work on holidays.

 3       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, I'm asking you about the 14th of June, 1992 on the

 4    feast of the Holy Trinity, did you work cleaning the town of Visegrad on

 5    that day?

 6       A.   Yes.  Yes, I did.

 7       Q.   And you've testified that Serbs and Muslims would help you clean

 8    the town.  Did you clean the town alone that day or did you clean it with

 9    other people?

10       A.   With others, in the company of others.

11       Q.   Were some of those people Serbs?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And were some of those people Muslims?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   So it is your testimony here that on this day that had religious

16    significance for both Serbs and Muslims, they volunteered to work with you

17    to clean the town; is that your testimony?

18       A.   Right.  Well, I won't say shop owners, people from restaurants,

19    people who worked at the post office or the bank, they always cleaned it.

20    They did it every day.  It's not much of a job, I mean you can do it in no

21    time at all, and women -- how much I worked that day, I don't know.

22       Q.   But it's your testimony that both Serbs and Muslims volunteered to

23    work with you on this Sunday?

24       A.   No, no, no.  I'm saying while I was there.  Now that Sunday, how

25    many, I can't remember, Serbs and Muslims, I don't know.  Perhaps more

Page 2154

 1    than Muslims, it was Bajram -- well, there wasn't much need to clean.  It

 2    wasn't all that much, perhaps in the early days but then the place was --

 3    the town was really put in order so it didn't really have to do much about

 4    it later on, you just ask people nicely and they do it.

 5       Q.   So your testimony is now that there wasn't much to do that day,

 6    and you're not sure whether you had both Muslims and Serbs and how many

 7    working with you that day; is that correct?

 8       A.   Oh, yes.  Certainly, there was Serbs, men and women, who were

 9    engaged in their regular jobs at work in their shops or restaurants or

10    wherever.  So they'd come out, clean each one in front of his own shop and

11    so, day in, day out.  It wasn't difficult.  As the time went by, it became

12    very easier.

13       Q.   It sounds from the way you're describing this that on this day you

14    worked in the centre of the town where the shops were; is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Were you ever working in the area of Pionirska Street earlier in

17    the day?

18       A.   Why, yes, we did go there earlier before that but, you know, it

19    was the cleanest area up there because the houses are new there.  It's a

20    newly-developed area.

21       Q.   Were you on Pionirska Street cleaning on the day of the 14th of

22    June?

23       A.   No, no.  Or, again, I didn't -- I don't -- I don't remember.  I

24    don't think so.

25       Q.   Well, you were here when Witness VG87 told us how he watched you

Page 2155

 1    walk along the street, and he told us that he was watching you from the

 2    attic of his house.  He told us how odd it sounded to him for you to be

 3    calling people out to clean the street when, in fact, most of the Muslims

 4    had either fled or had been taken away.

 5            Does that refresh your memory whether or not you were on Pionirska

 6    Street earlier in the day engaged in this cleaning activity?

 7       A.   In the morning, no, I don't think so.  I don't know.

 8       Q.   Is it possible that you were on Pionirska Street earlier in the

 9    morning of the 14th of June?

10       A.   Now, how can I say exactly?  I did rounds of streets, perhaps I

11    did go up there, but I can't tell you exactly.  And if I was there, then

12    it had to be earlier, around 9.00 or 10.00.

13       Q.   So it is possible that you were on Pionirska Street earlier in the

14    day, approximately 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning?

15       A.   I cannot say with certainty.  Perhaps -- I can't, I mean it was a

16    long time ago.

17       Q.   It was also that particular witness's belief that what you were

18    really trying to do was to find out whether there were any Muslims

19    remaining in the houses on Pionirska Street.  My question to you is:  Is

20    it a fact that what you were doing on Pionirska Street earlier on that day

21    was to try to trick the remaining Muslims by getting them to come out of

22    their houses to clean the street?  Isn't that what you were doing on

23    Pionirska Street earlier on that day?

24       A.   To invite Muslims out, to find out how many of them there were and

25    so on, oh, no, sir.  No.  No.  It never occurred to me.  Why should I be

Page 2156

 1    inviting them out?  Why should I be checking on them?  I mean, that's what

 2    he thinks, that's what he says, well, that's his view.  His wife perished

 3    there on Pionirska Street.

 4       Q.   Well, by your own testimony, it was the -- one of the cleanest

 5    areas in town; is that correct?

 6       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  It was always the cleanest area of town because

 7    it's a new area and there are many houses, but new houses.  It was very

 8    clean.  It was very densely populated, but a newly-developed area.

 9       Q.   And as you have just noted, he is describing what he saw happen on

10    the day that his wife died.  You don't think that he's confusing this day

11    with any other, do you?

12       A.   Perhaps.  Perhaps very likely.  I don't know what he thinks.  How,

13    why does he assume that I wanted to do something?  Well, I don't know.

14    That's what he thinks and I cannot really comment about it.  I mean, that

15    is what he thinks.

16       Q.   Well, would you agree with me if VG87 wanted to tell a lie about

17    you to get you in trouble, he could have told the Chamber that you were

18    present when the fire was started; is that correct?

19       A.   I won't say anything about that.  That is his opinion, and I have

20    a high opinion of him as a man.  I know him.  I don't know what he really

21    said, but that is his view but, of course, he must be angry because his

22    wife burned to death there, and there were children too.

23            So that is what he thinks.  What can I do about it?  That is how I

24    understood him, that he took it that that was the reason why I invited

25    people out.  Never.  Never in my life, nor did I know what Lukic was about

Page 2157

 1    to do.  How could I?

 2       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, you've testified in response to questions by

 3    Mr. Domazet that sometimes when you drink, you forget some of the things

 4    that you do, and you've also told us that you were drinking on this day.

 5    Is it possible that you were on Pionirska Street earlier in the day,

 6    calling people to come out to clean and that because you were drinking,

 7    you do not have a clear memory of it?  Is that possible?

 8       A.   Well, let me tell you, Pionirska Street wasn't the only one I was

 9    on, I did rounds of all streets, a number of streets.

10       Q.   I'm just referring to the 14th of June.  Is it possible that you

11    were up there on the morning of the 14th of June calling out people but

12    have forgotten because you were drinking at the time?  Is that a

13    possibility?

14       A.   If I was there, it was not in ill faith, I had no bad intentions

15    except to see that it was -- that it went on to be clean, but that I -- to

16    count the Muslims there, no, out of the question, so that something could

17    be done.  So as to do something, well, with them, that is a witness, what

18    the witness says and of course he's angry, that is natural.  But I can't

19    really comment much on that.  I don't really know what to tell you.  All I

20    know is, sir, that I did not participate in any way possible, that I

21    searched people as this lady witness has said, VG13.  She mentioned Milan

22    Lukic 16 times, and by then, on the second occasion, she never mentioned

23    the -- she only mentioned Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic and she

24    mentioned herself 16 times.

25       Q.   Sir, let me ask you what you were wearing that day.  In response

Page 2158

 1    to a question put to you by Mr. Domazet, you said that after your cousin's

 2    death, you wore dark clothing; is that correct?

 3       A.   Well, dark clothes, yes, not exactly mourning, but dark clothes.

 4    But I think I had olive-green/grey trousers.  That was all old.  When I

 5    came out of the hospital, I did not take it.

 6       Q.   We're talking before the hospital, and would it be correct to say

 7    that you wore dark clothing as a sign of respect for this cousin that you

 8    cared for very much?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Now, you were also --

11       A.   Dark colour.

12       Q.   You were also asked whether or not you owned a black hat and you

13    told us that you do own a black hat.  I want to ask you some specific

14    questions about that hat.  When you say that the black hat had the brim

15    upturned, I want to ask you, is it the sides of the hat that had a brim

16    that was upturned?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And the brim of the hat still stuck out in the front and the back;

19    is that correct?

20       A.   I don't understand.

21       Q.   Well, the brim in the front and the back of the hat, that was not

22    upturned, was it?

23       A.   No, no, no.  No, just -- this is just a plain hat.

24       Q.   And would I be correct in saying that if the brim of the hat were

25    allowed to be down, that it would be reasonable for people seeing this hat

Page 2159

 1    to mistake it for a cowboy hat?

 2       A.   Well, what do I know?  It also says that they had a Sajkaca, and

 3    that it was a Serb cap.  It was a yellow straw hat, and others saw me in a

 4    camouflage uniform, some others saw me in olive-green/grey, some others

 5    saw me without uniform.  How do I really know, I mean ...

 6       Q.   My question to you is not about what other people said.  I'm

 7    asking you to tell us about the hat that you have told us, the black hat

 8    that you have told us you own.  And my question is:  If the sides of the

 9    hat, the sides of the brim were allowed to be down, can you tell us how it

10    would be different from a cowboy hat, how would your hat be different from

11    a cowboy hat?

12       A.   Well, what shall I tell you?  I mean to my mind, all hats are the

13    same, cowboy.

14       Q.   So in other words, it would not be unreasonable for somebody to

15    see you in this hat and mistake it for a cowboy hat; is that correct?

16       A.   I think that the hat was imaginary, thought up, because we've

17    heard of a straw hat, a yellow one, somebody saying a cowboy --

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, Mr. Vasiljevic, please, you have been asked to

19    answer the questions about your black hat.  Now, please answer the

20    question and do not keep on talking about the evidence generally.  We'll

21    never finish if you keep on like this.

22            You have a very clever counsel here.  He will obtain from you

23    anything which he thinks is relevant which you have not been allowed to

24    answer as the witness, but we have got to stop this continual description

25    by you of what other people have said in the evidence unless you are asked

Page 2160

 1    specifically about it.

 2            Now, Mr. Groome, you are talking about something which I am having

 3    a little trouble with.  You are talking about a hat with the brim down

 4    being mistaken for a cowboy hat.  It may be that your idea of a cowboy hat

 5    and my idea of a cowboy hat are quite different, but I've always

 6    understood, perhaps from watching too many American films, that cowboys

 7    wear their hats with the sides of the brims up.

 8            Now, you better describe what you mean by a cowboy hat so that he

 9    can deal with your question.

10            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

11       Q.   You just heard Judge Hunt describe seeing cowboy hats in movies.

12    Have you seen movies with cowboys wearing hats?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Can you describe for us how is it that your hat is, this black hat

15    is different from the typical cowboy hat that one might see in a movie?

16    How did it differ?

17       A.   Cowboy hats are usually big.  Big, cowboy hats are, they're big.

18       Q.   Is there any other difference between your hat and a typical

19    cowboy hat?

20       A.   Well, the hat we wore was the classical type of hat, the classical

21    type.

22       Q.   For those of us who are unfamiliar with classical type hats, can

23    you describe other than the size, was there anything to distinguish your

24    hat from a cowboy hat?

25       A.   No.  The hats that the  army wore were turned upwards.  Some were

Page 2161

 1    black, some were camouflage.

 2       Q.   Would you agree with me that it would not be unreasonable for

 3    somebody to see your hat and to believe or to describe it as a cowboy

 4    hat?  Would you agree with me that that is a possibility?

 5       A.   Well, I don't know.  Depending on how you see it.  Everybody has

 6    his own opinion.

 7       Q.   I want to go back to the horse.  Where were you going to find this

 8    horse?

 9       A.   It's Vucine, the place is.  It's about five minutes, ten minutes

10    away from Pionirska.  The same street, actually.

11       Q.   And as you came up -- or let me ask you this first:  Did you

12    travel to this place up from the town of Visegrad?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And on your way up from the town, did you see any convoys or

15    soldiers?

16       A.   No.  Let me tell you this:  I was in town, but I don't remember

17    seeing those people in town at all.  They say they were in front of the

18    hotel.  Probably, they were.  But I don't remember seeing those people at

19    all in town at any moment, any time.

20       Q.   Where were you just prior to going up for the horse?

21       A.   I was in town.  But as I say, I don't remember seeing any of those

22    people.  I knew (redacted) from Sase well.  But these people --

23    nothing is clear to me.  I didn't see them in town when they went to the

24    hotel.  I don't know.  None of that -- I remember none of that.

25       Q.   And approximately how long did it take you to travel from where

Page 2162

 1    you were in town up to Pionirska Street?

 2       A.   Ten minutes perhaps.  Something like that.

 3       Q.   Now --

 4       A.   It's about a kilometre.  I'm not sure.  Not even.

 5       Q.   Now, you heard the witnesses describe how they walked up to

 6    Pionirska Street.  Did you take the same path that they described here in

 7    the court?

 8       A.   Yes.  That's the only path.

 9       Q.   And before your encounter with (redacted), did you stop

10    anywhere else on the way from town to Pionirska Street?

11       A.   Standing for a longer time?  No.  I don't know.

12       Q.   My question is:  Did you stop anywhere on the way up to Pionirska

13    Street before you met (redacted)?

14       A.   I don't think I did.  I don't know.

15       Q.   Can you tell us what exactly it was that you said to (redacted)

16    (redacted) and what he said to you?

17     A.  Let me tell you, I probably hadn't remembered anything had (redacted)

18    (redacted) not been there, but I know him, and I asked him the usual kind

19    of thing.  "What's up, Mujo?  What -- what -- "  And he said, "I'm okay.

20    We have to go to Kladanj."  And I know he said that his wife had to go on

21    ahead, had to go earlier.  And Mujo said -- he offered two of his cows.

22    He said he -- "I have got two good cows.  Do you want them?"  And I said,

23    "Mujo, I can't.  I haven't got anything to feed the cows with.  I can

24    keep them until you return, but I've got nothing to feed them with."  So

25    what we chatted about.  We discussed things like that.  That's what we

Page 2163












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Page 2164

 1    talked about.  I don't know.

 2       Q.   And can you describe for us where precisely it was that you had

 3    this conversation with (redacted)?

 4       A.   On the road towards the school.  Somewhere about there.

 5            MR. GROOME:  I'm going to ask that Prosecution Exhibit 17.3 be

 6    placed on the ELMO by the witness.  I'm going to ask that he be given a

 7    blue pen.

 8       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, I'm going to ask you to look at P17.3, and I'm

 9    going to ask you whether you can see on that photograph the location where

10    you spoke with (redacted).  Please make no mark yet on the diagram.

11            Are you able to see?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   I would ask you to put your initials and a circle where it was

14    that you had the conversation with (redacted).

15       A.   [Marks]

16       Q.   And put a circle around it, please.

17       A.   [Marks]

18       Q.   And before you give it to the usher, would you please write your

19    name on the bottom of that exhibit.

20       A.   [Marks]

21       Q.   I'd ask that it now be placed on the ELMO.  And I think it's

22    apparent where you have made the mark.

23            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time, I would tender that copy

24    of 17.3 into evidence as 17.3.MV to indicate that it was the accused who

25    made these marks.

Page 2165

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  Any objection, Mr. Domazet?

 2            MR. DOMAZET:  No, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  That will be Exhibit P17.3.MV.

 4            MR. GROOME:

 5       Q.   Now, Mr. Vasiljevic, (redacted) was a farmer; is that

 6    correct?

 7       A.   Mujo worked in the Terpentin company of Visegrad, but yes, he was

 8    a farmer as well.

 9       Q.   And he had some fields upon which he raised some livestock,

10    including the two cows that he talked to you about; is that correct?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Now, would you say you were better friends with (redacted) or

13    better friends with Meho Dzafic?  Who were you closer to?

14       A.   I was closer to Meho Dzafic.  I worked with him.

15       Q.   Did you also consider (redacted) a good friend?

16       A.   We were always good friends.  He would pass by my house every day

17    on his way to work.  We would have a drink very often.  Mujo frequented

18    cafes more often.

19       Q.   Now, Mujo wasn't giving you his cows because he didn't want them,

20    he was offering you the cows because he was being forced to leave and he

21    couldn't take them with him; is that correct?

22       A.   Yes, so that his cows wouldn't perish.

23       Q.   So he had to abandon his cows; correct?

24       A.   He had to leave his house and property.

25       Q.   So it seems that on this day, there were two more abandoned

Page 2166

 1    animals that fit into the story, yet you were willing to walk all the way

 2    up to Vucine on a Serb holiday to care for a horse whose owner you did not

 3    know, but you refused to help your good friend take care of the two cows

 4    that he had to abandon; isn't that correct?

 5       A.   No.  Well, no.  How could I keep two cows?  You can't send a cow

 6    out in the forest to fend for itself.  I would have taken his cows had I

 7    had a shed and food to feed them with.  Why not?  I would give him mine if

 8    I had to leave.  I would give them to anyone who was willing to look after

 9    them and feed them.

10       Q.   Well, Mr. Vasiljevic, this is the beginning of the summer.  Cows

11    eat grass, don't they?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And there was grass in the field of (redacted), was there

14    not?

15       A.   Well, I couldn't go and tend to the cows by his house all the

16    time, on his field.  If I had my own piece of land and my own shed, I

17    would take them then, but -- like this.

18       Q.   So as far as you knew, when you refused Mujo's request regarding

19    the two cows, as far as you knew at that time, those two cows would have

20    just perished?  You made no arrangements for those cows; correct?

21       A.   Well, the cooperative took the cows and livestock.  Generally, the

22    cooperative would do that.  They would take the animals.

23       Q.   Well, you told us a few weeks ago that you may have given Mujo

24    your address and your phone number.  Do you recall telling us that?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2167

 1       Q.   So you planned to remain in contact with (redacted); correct?

 2       A.   I would always with Mujo.  But unfortunately, he was killed and

 3    burnt in the house.  We would still be friends today.  We never had any

 4    disagreements or problems.  He was a good man.  He liked to have a drink

 5    now and again, and I knew him well.

 6       Q.   And you'll agree with me that you could have done this good friend

 7    a great service by perhaps selling his cows and eventually giving him the

 8    money; correct?

 9       A.   Who would I sell them to?  I didn't even think about it at the

10    time.  I couldn't take them, that was all.  I knew that I couldn't take

11    them.  Who could I sell his cows to?

12       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, when you were up on Pionirska Street talking to

13    Mujo, there were other people there that you recognised; isn't that

14    correct?

15       A.   There was another man with Mujo.  I don't know his name, but he

16    built houses in Sase.  Now, whether he had a house up there in Jasarevici,

17    that settlement.  The settlement in Sase was called Jasarevici.  I know

18    that he was building a house below the road -- under -- below the

19    village.  Now, what his name was, I can't quite remember now.

20       Q.   And didn't you also recognise some of the people from Koritnik?

21       A.   I don't know.  I wasn't paying attention to things like that.  How

22    would I know?  I don't know.  What can I tell you about that?  I don't

23    know what to say.  I know that they came.  I know the women came, but --

24       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, is it your testimony here today that at the time

25    that you were speaking with (redacted), you did not recognise any of

Page 2168

 1    the people, other people present, as being from Koritnik?

 2       A.   No.  I know the people, but I don't know the names.  You showed a

 3    picture VG13, when she [sic] testified, but the fat man, but I don't know

 4    his name.  I know the other one from the cassette, [redacted]

 5    [redacted] but I don't know the names.  I know the people by

 6    sight.  I don't know the names, what their names are.

 7       Q.   Would it be fair for me to say --

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Sorry, I just want to check the name that he

 9    mentioned on the cassette.  Is that a protected witness?  The old man.

10            MR. GROOME:  Sorry.  Your Honour.  The transcript isn't showing

11    the name.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm thinking the video that you have prepared which

13    includes showing a witness's father going past.

14            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  That witness is a protected

15    witness.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well.  Well, we'll redact the name.  Thank you.

17            MR. GROOME:  Thank you.

18       Q.   Would it be fair to say that of the other people around the house,

19    although you did not know their names, you knew them by sight and you knew

20    that they were from the village of Koritnik?  Would that be correct?

21       A.   Yes.  Now I don't know how many of them I saw.  Well, had you

22    asked me exactly, had somebody said -- asked me, "Are they from Koritnik

23    or Osanica?" -- but I know the people, I know them by sight.  They're from

24    that area, Zupa.  It's all referred to that area, Zupa.  I know they're

25    from there, that -- I do know that, yes.

Page 2169

 1       Q.   Now, Mr. Vasiljevic, you've sat here and you've seen a number of

 2    witnesses, both live witnesses and witnesses by videolink, who told us

 3    about being present on that day.  Perhaps you did not know their name, but

 4    would it be fair to say that you did recognise them as they entered the

 5    courtroom, as they appeared on the monitor, that you recognised them as

 6    people that were present on Pionirska Street on the 14th of June?

 7       A.   VG61.

 8       Q.   So you recognised VG61.  Did you recognise VG --

 9       A.   87, 15.

10       Q.   You mean 115?

11       A.   Yes, yes, 115.

12       Q.   Did you recognise VG13 when she entered the courtroom?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Did you recognise VG18 when she entered the courtroom?

15       A.   Maybe slightly but I could never actually -- had I met her in the

16    street, I would never have known that that was -- I wouldn't know who the

17    person was.  Perhaps slightly, but nothing definite.

18       Q.   Did you recognise VG38?

19       A.   That was a child.  How old was he, 12, 13?  I couldn't recognise

20    him even if I had known him, and I don't know that I had known him ever.

21       Q.   Did you recognise VG78?

22       A.   Well, I can't say.  They were sisters.  No, I wouldn't recognise

23    them either because many years have gone by, how many, nine years.

24       Q.   Now, you heard VG18 describe a brief conversation that she had

25    with you regarding a relative of hers who worked for the same company as

Page 2170

 1    you.  Do you recall having that conversation with her?

 2       A.   I don't know.  Perhaps we talked, but I really can't say.  I think

 3    she said [redacted].

 4       Q.   I'd ask you not to talk about the nature of the relationship or

 5    mention that person's name.  Was the information that she disclosed here

 6    in court regarding that person, regarding where he worked at the time, was

 7    that information accurate?

 8       A.   If the person is the one I'm thinking of then, yes, we worked in

 9    the same company, if that was [redacted].  But he's much younger than

10    her.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think it's just him.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome, if you want to rely upon anything here, I

12    think we're going to have to be a little more specific about the person

13    you're referring to and, if necessary, you can do it in private session.

14    But I don't think that you -- that it's fair to assume that you and the

15    witness are speaking about the same thing, same person.

16            MR. GROOME:  Perhaps I will ask a few questions to see if I can

17    clear it up and if not, we'll go into private session.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, try that first.

19            MR. GROOME:

20       Q.   I'm talking about Witness VG18.  Do you see her name on the sheet

21    in front of you?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And do you recall her testifying regarding where a relative of

24    hers worked?

25       A.   Yes, but she didn't say the name.  I think it was -- well, you

Page 2171

 1    don't want me to say names.  That was the only surname, her maiden name,

 2    and I think that's what she said, as you said.  And [redacted] did work

 3    in the company I worked for.  We worked together in the same company.  I'm

 4    sorry, I mentioned the word [redacted] again.

 5       Q.   You've told us that you would not have recognised her on the

 6    street; is that correct?

 7       A.   Well, I wouldn't now, no.

 8       Q.   So you knew this information about her relative because she told

 9    you that on the 14th of June; is that correct?  That's how you know this

10    information.

11       A.   I know that relative of hers, yes, I do.  If she didn't say the

12    name but I think that's it because he was the only one in the company with

13    that surname, as a waiter, working as a waiter.

14       Q.   And in fact, when you spoke with her regarding this relative, you

15    told her that he worked in another establishment owned by your company, a

16    different one than the particular cafe that you worked in; is that

17    correct?

18       A.   That's what she says, but he did work up there at that time, and

19    we worked together too, for years.

20       Q.   You don't have a very clear memory of the conversation you had

21    with her on that day, do you?

22       A.   I don't remember.  She says she asked me, maybe she did.  Please

23    believe me when I say this.  I don't want to say she didn't.  I just can't

24    say.  If she says we talked about it, then probably we did, but I don't

25    remember.  Maybe we did.  I can't say.

Page 2172

 1       Q.   Well, you told us on your first day of testimony that you

 2    sometimes forget what you've said and what you've done when you're

 3    drinking.  Is it reasonable for us to conclude that because you were

 4    drinking this day, that is why you do not have a clear memory of the

 5    conversation you had with VG18?  Can we conclude that?

 6       A.   Well, we can if we talked about it.  Well, why should I remember?

 7    Maybe the woman did ask me; I don't want to say she didn't.  If she

 8    mentioned that relative of hers, I know him.

 9       Q.   Is it a fact that when you do drink you sometimes forget the

10    things you say and the things you do and this problem has been an

11    increasing one over the years of your drinking; is that correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And, in fact, you told us that you -- sometimes you are not aware

14    of the things you do and say, and you gave us as an example not being

15    aware of how you got back to your house, whether you walked, whether

16    somebody drove you, and different things like that; is that correct?

17       A.   When I'm very drunk, yes.

18       Q.   Well, how drunk would you say you were on this day?  Would you

19    consider yourself very drunk on this day?

20       A.   Well, not that drunk.  Well, when I fell, yes, I mean the horse

21    fell.  We fell together.  Well, not that drunk as I was then.  Perhaps I

22    wouldn't remember anything.

23            Let me tell you, let me explain it to you, I might not have

24    remembered anything, had not (redacted) been there in that group, I

25    might have passed by.  What would I have said to those women?  Why would I

Page 2173

 1    talk to them?  Perhaps if somebody asked me something, I would respond and

 2    answer, but I knew nothing about this until The Hague.

 3       Q.   Well, my question to you is:  Given that you were drinking that

 4    day, is it possible you said other things to some of the people there that

 5    you now do not have a clear memory of saying?

 6       A.   Well, I don't know what to say.  Possibly, I don't know.

 7       Q.   Well --

 8       A.   If I talked to someone, I don't know.

 9       Q.   Well, do you recall telling (redacted) that everything was

10    going to be all right; did you tell him that?

11       A.   Well, I can't remember the exact conversation, what we said while

12    we -- what could I say?  He was leaving his house, his property.  What

13    could I say to him?  What else could I tell him?  What could I say to

14    him?

15       Q.   Let me see if this refreshes your memory.  In your statement of

16    the 16th on page 86, and I will read you a quote from that, "So I told

17    him," referring to Mujo, "So I told him it's going to be all right, and

18    what else could I have told him?"  Does that refresh your memory as to

19    whether you told (redacted) on that day that everything was going to

20    be all right?

21       A.   Well, I thought they would come back, they would find something

22    there.  I don't know, sir.  What can I tell you?  I can't describe to you

23    exactly what we talked about.  It was a long time ago.

24            How we talked, now what we actually said, who, what, I felt sorry

25    for him, and not only for him, I was sorry.  The poor man was having to

Page 2174

 1    leave.  He was leaving his home, his plot of land, and we promised to see

 2    each other again to say hello.  We were good friends.  My wife worked in

 3    his village.

 4            What can I tell you?  What can I say to what you're saying?  What

 5    happened happened.  I really don't know anything about it.  I don't know.

 6            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, perhaps this will be a good place to

 7    pause.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  We'll resume at 11.30.

 9                          --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

10                          --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome.

12            MR. GROOME:   Thank you, Your Honour.

13       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, we concluded the break with me asking you about

14    whether or not you said to (redacted) that everything would be all

15    right.  I'm going to ask you -- because the answer to this question is

16    very important, I'm going to ask you to answer my next question with a

17    simple yes or no.  Do you remember saying to (redacted) that

18    everything would be all right?  Do you remember saying that?  Yes or no?

19       A.   Right, that everything will be all right.  Now, I don't know -- I

20    don't really know how to explain it to you.

21       Q.   Just a yes or no --

22       A.   That -- well, yes.  If I said it, then yes.

23       Q.   Would it be fair to say, however, that as you sit here today in

24   court, you do not have a very clear memory of you saying that to (redacted)

25   (redacted)?  Isn't that the problem that we're having, that you do not have

Page 2175

 1    a clear memory, because you were drinking at the time, of what you said to

 2    (redacted)?

 3       A.   Well, I can't remember everything that was said, but I didn't say

 4    anything bad was said to him, nothing.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome, I'm wondering whether it's fair to add

 6    what you said in that last question, it was because he had been drinking

 7    at the time.  He has said on a number of occasions that he had not found

 8    out about any of this until he arrived at The Hague.

 9            Now, if you want to put it to him he is having trouble

10    remembering, fair enough, but to add that it's as a result of that, I'm

11    not sure that he really has accepted that because of the number of times

12    he's referred to the other fact.

13            MR. GROOME:   Thank you, Your Honour.

14       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, is your problem with recalling precisely what you

15    did on the 14th of June, is the problem with the length of time that has

16    gone by since the 14th of June, 1992, or is it because you were drinking

17    at the time?

18       A.   Well, let me tell you, I think that the principal problem is the

19    time that has gone by, because I just don't know anything about it, about

20    all these things what happened until I arrived in The Hague.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome, I'm sorry to interrupt again, but I'm not

22    sure that you got my point.  The question is whether he would have

23    remembered anything that happened on the 14th of June if he had had no

24    occasion to recall it.  It's a different issue.

25            If you asked me what I was doing on the 14th of June, 1992, I

Page 2176

 1    would have absolutely no idea.  Whether I spoke to a particular person at

 2    a particular time on a particular street, I couldn't tell you.  But if at

 3    the time something dramatic had happened which would have impressed these

 4    things in his mind, it's quite different.

 5            As I understand the defendant's answers, he is saying, "Look, I

 6    could have spoken to him.  I just never was asked to recall anything about

 7    it until I arrived here in The Hague."  Now, that's not just the passage

 8    of time.  It's the need to have to recall it, which is important.

 9            Now, I don't know whether we accept him or not.  That's a matter

10    we have to determine at the end of the trial or whether we think that what

11    he says raises some reasonable doubt about it.  But I think it's only fair

12    that if you want to tie him down, it's not just the extent of the period

13    that has passed, it's the fact that nobody had asked him to recall this

14    until he arrived here in The Hague.

15            MR. GROOME:   Thank you, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  So if you want to rely upon his answers, may I

17    suggest you put that to him and see how that goes.  In the end, we'll have

18    to determine how we approach it in the light of all of the evidence.  But

19    I don't think that you're being quite accurate in the way you put it to

20    him at the moment.

21            MR. GROOME:   Let me try again, Your Honour.  Thank you.

22       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, you've heard the Court's comments.  Is your

23    problem with remembering because in your mind nothing remarkable happened

24    on that day to make it stand out in your mind?  Is that the essence of

25    your problem with remembering precisely what people said and what you may

Page 2177

 1    have said that day?

 2       A.   Time and nothing special happened so that it would be impressed in

 3    my mind.  Had anything happened, had there been any problem or something,

 4    then I would have remembered it.  Then I would have known that.

 5       Q.   So there was nothing remarkable.  Had there been something

 6    remarkable, you would have a clearer memory of what was said to you and

 7    what you may have said to other people; is that correct?

 8       A.   Well, I would have remembered what had happened.  But there was

 9    nothing that I -- that would have -- that stuck in my mind.

10       Q.   Well, let's see whether or not some remarkable things happened on

11    this day.  This was the last time that you saw your good friend (redacted)

12    (redacted) alive; is that correct?

13       A.   The last time.

14       Q.   And in fact, we're now talking about the last words that you and

15    this good friend exchanged; correct?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And this is also the day that you said that you had this terrible

18    accident with the horse that put you in the hospital for over two months;

19    is that correct?

20       A.   Forty-three days, I think.

21       Q.   And we also know from your earlier testimony that you do not seem

22    to have any problem recollecting what you said and what you did not say

23    with the man who told you initially about the horse.  You remember that

24    quite clearly; is that correct?  Mr. Ristanovic.

25       A.   Yes.  Well, I was off to get the horse.

Page 2178

 1       Q.   So that was remarkable enough for you to remember with specificity

 2    the conversation that you had with Mr. Ristanovic; correct?

 3       A.   Well, yes, because I broke my leg that day.  So there was reason

 4    for me to remember it, because I broke my leg that day.

 5       Q.   And yet you've told us that you do not have a clear memory of what

 6    you may have said to (redacted), your good friend, the last time you

 7    spoke to him; is that still your testimony?

 8       A.   Well, I know what we talked about.  We were together some 15 or 20

 9    minutes so we must have talked about things.  I'm sure we talked about

10    more but we -- but it wasn't anything bad that we talked about.  Of

11    course, the bad thing is what happened but what can I do about that?  It's

12    by the orders of others.

13       Q.   Well, you seem to recall quite clearly that (redacted) spoke

14    to you about his wife and where she was at that moment, in the town of

15    Kladanj.  You seem to recall quite clearly the conversation that you had

16    with him regarding the cows, both what he said to you and you said to him,

17    yet is it your testimony that you do not have a clear memory of saying to

18    him, "You will be all right."

19       A.   Well, sir, what shall I tell you?  Maybe I said it will be all

20    right, thinking that he'd be coming back.  I can't give you every word,

21    every sentence.  I really can't.  I guess we talked about other things,

22    but there was no argument or any problem between us.  There was nothing

23    like that ever.

24       Q.   Well, let me ask you about some of the other things that witnesses

25    have told us you said to them at that time.  One of the witnesses said

Page 2179

 1    that you asked the people there if they had gotten settled in the Memic

 2    house.  Do you recall saying that?

 3       A.   I don't think so.  To begin with, I didn't know.  They could have

 4    settled in any house.  No, I didn't know that Memic's house was empty, and

 5    truth to tell, I couldn't care less where they would settle, so they could

 6    go to that house or to some other house.  I had nothing to do with that,

 7    so why would it be up to me to tell them what house to go to?

 8       Q.   Aside from the name of the person who owned the house, is it

 9    possible that you said to these people or that you asked these people were

10    they settled in the house that you were standing in front of and they were

11    around?  Can you be sure that you did not ask them were they settled in

12    that house?

13       A.   I don't know about that.  I don't know.  It wasn't mine to

14    accommodate people.  I don't know.  I mean they were around me.  They

15    could go to whatever house.  I had nothing to do with where those people

16    would be accommodated.

17       Q.   There is evidence before the Chamber that you said, "It's a good

18    place to spend the night."  Can you be sure that you did not say that to

19    anybody on that day?

20       A.   I don't think I did.  Why should I?  I mean any house is all

21    right.

22       Q.   There's also evidence that you said that there was a bus coming

23    the following morning.  Can you be sure that you did not say that to any

24    of the people at that house?

25       A.   I didn't enter any one of the houses.

Page 2180

 1       Q.   I'm talking about in front of the house.  The witnesses described

 2    you saying this at the front of the house.  Can you be sure that you did

 3    not tell anyone that day that there would be a bus coming the following

 4    day?

 5       A.   I know that Mujo was saying that they were too late, that there

 6    was no bus.  What did we talk about?  I suppose somebody told them that it

 7    would be coming the next day.  I don't know, sir.  Again, I'm saying I had

 8    no bad intentions, and they could go to whatever house they liked.  I

 9    didn't organise those convoys.  I didn't try to watch them or monitor them

10    or anything.

11       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, they are saying that you told them that a bus

12    would be coming the next day, and I'll ask you to answer the question with

13    a simple yes or no.  Did you tell those people that a bus was coming the

14    next day; yes or no?

15       A.   I don't think so.  Somebody else told them.  They were saying that

16    somebody had told them that they would be taken away the next day, I don't

17    know, and that they were late.  I didn't know that until I saw (redacted)

18    (redacted).  I didn't know they would be going.  I didn't know anything.

19       Q.   Sir, you said, "I don't think so."  Can I take from that that it

20    is possible that you did say that a bus was coming the next day, but you

21    have since forgotten that?

22       A.   It wasn't my responsibility.  How could I know?  How can I say it

23    will be -- the bus will be coming?  I didn't work for the transport

24    company.  How could I say something like that?  How could I guarantee that

25    a bus would be coming?  I didn't do that.  I didn't -- I don't know how to

Page 2181

 1    explain it.  How can I say anything?  How can I guarantee him that the bus

 2    will be coming?

 3       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, is it possible you told somebody that day that a

 4    bus was coming the next day; yes or no, please?  Is that possible?

 5       A.   I do not think it is.

 6       Q.   A witness testified several weeks ago that you told the people

 7    that they should stay in that house.  Without explaining how and why or

 8    what your responsibilities were, can you tell us, yes or no, did you ever

 9    tell anyone on that day that they should stay in the house?

10       A.   I don't think I did, no.  No, they could go to whatever house as

11    far as I was concerned.

12       Q.   Now, regarding whether or not you wrote something down, you've

13 testified yourself that, "I could have perhaps given him," meaning (redacted)

14    (redacted), "my address or telephone number."  Do you recall testifying to

15    that earlier in this trial?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   So at least on the issue of writing something, you do entertain

18    the possibility that you may have written something down, and you may have

19    given it to (redacted)?

20       A.   Yes, that I gave it to him but that I had written for him a

21    guarantee or something like that as they are saying, that is, no.  I mean,

22    who am I to issue any guarantees and who is responsible for such things.

23    He knew what I was, I mean, that I was a waiter.

24       Q.   So if I'm correct, you do not dispute that you may have handed

25    (redacted) a piece of paper that you wrote on.  What you do dispute is

Page 2182

 1    what was written on that piece of paper; correct?

 2       A.   Yes.  Because I couldn't give him any guarantees.  If I did

 3    something, I could have given him a telephone number or address, nothing

 4    else at that time.

 5       Q.   And to be clear, what was written on that paper was written in the

 6    presence of (redacted).  It wasn't a piece of paper that was written

 7    on earlier in the day; is that correct?

 8       A.   Well, I gave it to him, then I gave it to him then, but I just

 9    have no recollection of these papers or anything.  I'm not sure about any

10    of this.  I don't know.  It's all "perhaps."

11      Q.  Can you refresh my memory?  Am I correct in thinking that (redacted)

12    (redacted) lived across the street from you and very close to your home?

13    Is that correct?

14       A.   Not across the street.  He lived in Sase.  It could be a kilometre

15    and a half from my house towards Banja, towards the Spa.  That is, you

16    turn right to go to Sase, about a kilometre and a half.  But he would pass

17    going to work every day.  I saw him often.  I knew him well, and his wife,

18    too.

19       Q.   And you testified that he stopped by your house very frequently.

20    I think maybe even you said every day.  Is that correct?  Yes or no?

21       A.   Yes, yes, yes.  He passed by every day, yes, going to work.

22       Q.   And is it your testimony that despite that, (redacted) did not

23    know your address?  Is that your testimony?

24       A.   Well, perhaps he didn't know the street.  Whether he knew the

25    street -- perhaps he knew the street, but I guess he didn't know the

Page 2183

 1    telephone number.  If I gave it to him, that is, because I don't remember

 2    doing that.

 3       Q.   You heard Witness VG84, who was a boy at the time, standing quite

 4    close to you when he says you addressed the people there.  He said that

 5    you stated a number of things to those people.  He said that you said, "My

 6    name is Mitar Vasiljevic.  I represent the Red Cross.  I am in charge of

 7    your accommodation and security."

 8            Did you say that?

 9       A.   No.  I didn't work for the Red Cross, and I could not say that.

10    He was a child, so I can't remember him.  But I could not say that,

11    because I did not work for the Red Cross.

12       Q.   Well, we know that you never worked for the Red Cross.  The

13    question is:  Did you ever represent to people that you worked for the Red

14    Cross?

15       A.   No.  I didn't work for the Red Cross, and I couldn't say anything

16    like that.

17       Q.   Did you ever wear the symbol of the Red Cross on your camouflage

18    uniform during this period of time?

19       A.   I never had a camouflage uniform in 1992.

20       Q.   Did you ever wearing the insignia of the Red Cross on your

21    person?

22       A.   I had this red ribbon.  Perhaps this is what they thought was the

23    Red Cross emblem.  But that I said anything to them like that, no.  It

24    never crossed my mind, because I never worked for it.  Then I'd have to be

25    there the next day.

Page 2184

 1       Q.   We know from your prior testimony that the red ribbon had no words

 2    on it and had no symbols on it.  It was a simple plain red ribbon; is that

 3    correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And is it your testimony that that is all you wore?  You never

 6    wore the insignia of the Red Cross?

 7       A.   Never.  Why?  I didn't work for the Red Cross, never.

 8       Q.   Now, you told us on the last day that we were in session that you

 9    had reviewed or read the Defence witness -- statements given by Defence

10    witnesses; is that correct?

11       A.   The Defence witnesses, yes.

12       Q.   And have you read the statement of a Defence witness by the name

13    of (redacted)?

14       A.   Yes.  The lawyer read it to me.  That is my neighbour.

15       Q.   And have you read the statement of the Defence witness by the name

16    of Dragisa Lindo?

17       A.   Yes, but let me tell you, I never had them with me, so I can't

18    really remember all I said.  I mean, the lawyer read them to me, so that I

19    really didn't have them with me, those witness statements, I mean, in the

20    cell to study them properly, only what the lawyer read out to me.

21       Q.   But you will recall that both of those men claim that they both,

22    they both saw you with a Red Cross insignia on your uniform?  You will

23    recall that, won't you?

24       A.   With that ribbon.  I don't know.  As I said, I do not have a

25    single witness statement in my cell.  I could have, but I never kept them

Page 2185

 1    in the cell.  So I just don't know.  I only know what the lawyer read out

 2    to me.

 3       Q.   Are these witnesses mistaken if they say that they saw you wearing

 4    a Red Cross insignia?  Are they mistaken if they should say that?

 5       A.   Well, they saw that ribbon, and what they took it to mean, I don't

 6    know.  They will explain it when they testify.

 7       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, isn't it a fact that even Serbs, even your own

 8    neighbours, believed that you were associated with the Red Cross because

 9    of things you said or things you wore?  Isn't it a fact that even your

10    neighbours believed you were associated with the Red Cross?

11       A.   I don't really know.  Well, he will be testifying.  But the Red

12    Cross would have known had I worked for them, because these humanitarian

13    and whatnot, surely they would have known it had I worked for the Red

14    Cross, but I didn't.

15       Q.   Do you remember telling us, before we took the two-week break,

16    telling us that (redacted) may have asked you about the red ribbon you

17    were wearing?  Do you remember telling us that?

18       A.   Why, yes, I suppose he did ask.

19       Q.   And you also remember telling us that, and I quote, "I may have

20    said something"?  Do you recall telling us that in this courtroom?

21       A.   Well, yes, if I said that I was responsible for the cleaning of

22    the town, but I couldn't say that I was responsible for the Red Cross.

23       Q.   Are you -- do you have a clear memory regarding what you said to

24    (redacted) regarding the red ribbon?  Do you remember that?

25       A.   I don't know, sir.  I mean, how can I tell you all that I talked

Page 2186

 1    with him about?  It was a long time ago.  How can I know now what he asked

 2    me and what I asked him?  But there was -- there was nothing bad that we

 3    talked about, and I didn't think anything bad about him or that we talked

 4    about anything untoward.  I don't know.  I mean, what happened, happened.

 5    What can I do about it?  What can I do about it?  And I am very sorry that

 6    he dead.

 7       Q.   Is it possible --

 8       A.   And I --- I've been accused of that.

 9       Q.   Is it possible that on that day you were wearing this Red Cross

10    insignia as described in the statements of two Defence witnesses and that

11    that is why some of these witnesses believed that you were representing

12    the Red Cross?  Isn't that a possibility?

13       A.   Well, that ribbon, I guess they must have thought that this red

14    ribbon was some Red Cross emblem.  That's perhaps how they saw it.  But

15    how can I say, I mean what people think about something?

16       Q.   Before we leave this area, is it possible that you may have said

17    anything to these people which you can now remember which you believe that

18    they misinterpreted, just as you're telling us that they may have

19    misinterpreted the red ribbon?  Can you recall anything that you said that

20    they may have misinterpreted?

21       A.   I don't know, sir.  I repeat, I cannot recollect every

22    conversation.  But I did not say anything bad to these people.

23       Q.   Now, Mr. Vasiljevic, at some point you had a drink with (redacted)

24    (redacted); is that correct?  Yes or no, please.

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2187

 1       Q.   And in your testimony, you told us that you had a bottle of brandy

 2    with you; is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And you had this bottle yourself from earlier in the day; is that

 5    correct?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Did (redacted) have any bottle of any type of alcohol that you

 8    could see during the time that you spoke with him?

 9       A.   No, I don't -- no.  Perhaps he did, but in a bag.

10       Q.   To your knowledge, did (redacted) ever leave where you were

11    talking with him, go to a store, and buy a bottle of brandy?  Did he ever

12    do that?

13       A.   No.  No, I don't think so.  Perhaps later, I don't know, when I

14    had left.  I don't know.

15       Q.   I'm going to read you a portion of your statement given on the

16    16th of November last year at page 86, and I'm quoting, "And so I said,"

17    referring to yourself, "'Shall we have a drink, Mujo?'  He said, 'Very

18    well.'  Then he went to the store, got a bottle of brandy and so we had

19    some drinks."  Do you admit or deny that you said that on the 16th of

20    November?

21       A.   When he said "went," I read that.  I didn't express myself

22    properly.  You asked me the next day about that and I told you.  I was

23    ashamed to tell you then.  Now, it's up to you -- I was ashamed.

24       Q.   Ashamed to tell me what?

25       A.   Well, ashamed to say that I drank so much.

Page 2188

 1       Q.   And that is why you told myself and the investigators that it was

 2    Mujo that bought the brandy.  That is the reason why you told us that.

 3       A.   I corrected myself there.  I said I went and bought the brandy,

 4    something like that.  I have it -- there are some mistakes there and it's

 5    not quite clear, but to tell you the truth, I was ashamed, but what can I

 6    do?  And the hospital, neuropsychiatry, and everything -- well, I was

 7    ashamed to say that I was carrying a bottle with me and that I was an

 8    alcoholic, I was ashamed, although I did own up to it and I did go for

 9    treatment.

10       Q.   So, sir, on the 16th of November, because you were ashamed of your

11    alcoholism, in your statement, you said something which you knew to be

12    false, and that is that (redacted) had bought the brandy.  Is that

13    correct, you said something you knew to be false?

14       A.   I wouldn't put it that way.  I wouldn't say that I said it.  I

15    said, "went bought brandy," I wasn't specific.  I don't think I actually

16    said that Mujo went off.  Does it say Mujo went to the shop to buy brandy,

17    because I don't think I said it as explicitly as that?

18       Q.   I'll read it to you again.  "'Shall we have a drink, Mujo?'  He

19    said, 'Very well.'  Then he went to the store, got a bottle of brandy, and

20    so we had some drinks."

21            Did you say that on the 16th of November?

22       A.   The translation said, "... went to the store and bought a bottle

23    of brandy."  It says I went.  Now, there's something between the "I went"

24    and "went" and "he went" in the Serbian translation.  I don't think --

25    well, I did say it.  Well, I was ashamed to say that I carried the bottle

Page 2189

 1    with me, and that's ...

 2       Q.   So you do admit that you said Mujo went to the store and bought

 3    the brandy.  You admit that now.

 4       A.   Well, no, I don't think that's what the translation -- that's not

 5    what I wanted to say, but for me to buy it.  It's different to go off and

 6    buy the bottle and it's different to carry a bottle with you, and as I

 7    said, this -- I was ashamed.  And had you not asked me and I was treated

 8    for alcoholism, I was in hospital, and probably I wouldn't have mentioned

 9    that either had you not actually asked me.  So "went," "bought."

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome, can you ask him those questions and ask

11    him to exclude what was in the Serbian translation and ask him what his

12    memory is now, because it's anything but clear to me from his answer as

13    it's being interpreted to me what it is he is saying.  "I was ashamed to

14    say I carried the bottle with me," suggests that he did, in fact, carry

15    the bottle with him but was ashamed to say it and, therefore, ascribed the

16    action of purchasing it to this other fellow.  But I'm not sure that is

17    what he's saying in the overall context.  If it's important, you better

18    tie him down without reference to what's in the Serbian translation of his

19    statement.

20            MR. GROOME:

21       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, your statement is in evidence and the Court can

22    review that if they wish.  Let's forget about the statement for the

23    moment.  What is your testimony here today regarding the bottle of

24    brandy?  Where did the bottle of brandy come from?

25       A.   I carried it, sir.  I carried it.

Page 2190

 1       Q.   Did you also carry the glasses for the brandy?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   Where did those come from?

 4       A.   Well, I think Mujo must have gone into a house and brought out the

 5    glasses.

 6       Q.   At the time you had a drink with Mujo, were there other people in

 7    the area?

 8       A.   Well, yes, there probably was, the houses nearby, people pass by.

 9       Q.   And the people that were around you, were they the people whose

10    names you did not know but whom you recognised from the villages of Sase

11    and Koritnik?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   How long did you drink with Mujo before you left that place?

14       A.   Well, I don't know, perhaps 20 minutes, perhaps more.  I don't

15    know exactly.

16       Q.   And do you recall how many drinks you had?

17       A.   Well, I don't know.  I left him the bottle.  I don't know.  I

18    think -- I don't know.

19       Q.   And how long did it take you to get to where the horse was

20    supposed to be?

21       A.   It's not far, five or ten minutes.

22       Q.   And can you tell us what time of the day, approximately, do you

23    arrive to where the horse is?

24       A.   Well, I don't know exactly, perhaps half past 4.00, 5.00,

25    thereabouts.

Page 2191

 1       Q.   So somewhere between 4.30 and 5.00 in the afternoon, you arrive to

 2    the place where the horse is; correct?

 3       A.   Yes, thereabouts.  Perhaps the time is not exact to the minute or

 4    to the half hour, give or take a half hour, but thereabouts.

 5       Q.   Where, precisely, was the horse when you first saw it?

 6       A.   Vucine, it's a settlement right above Pionirska.  There's a shed,

 7    a wooden one, and there is a meadow in front of the shed, and he was tied

 8    in a plum tree.  He was tethered with a long piece of rope.

 9       Q.   And how was it you knew that this horse was the horse that you

10    were coming to get?

11       A.   Ristanovic explained to me where the house was and everything up

12    there.  It's not far.

13       Q.   The meadow that you're referring to, was there a fence around the

14    meadow?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   How large was this horse?

17       A.   Well, not very big, a smaller horse, smaller horse.

18       Q.   Can you describe for us when you were standing, or if you were

19    standing next to this horse, how far up on your body would the back of the

20    horse come?

21       A.   Well, I don't know.  Maybe up to here, like this.  I don't know.

22    But it was a smaller horse anyway, not big.

23       Q.   And you were indicating the top of your chest by your collarbone;

24    is that correct?

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Collarbone, I'm not sure --

Page 2192

 1       A.   Well, I don't know.  Here somewhere.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  He's saying on the -- on his chest, what would

 3    normally be regarded as his chest.

 4            MR. GROOME:  That's sufficient.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Are you happy with that, Mr. Domazet?

 6            MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.

 7            MR. GROOME:

 8       Q.   Now, had you ever seen this horse before?

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   Did you know anything about this horse prior to this day?

11       A.   No.  No.

12       Q.   Was there a saddle on the horse?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Did the horse have shoes on its hooves?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Did the horse have a bridle in its mouth?

17       A.   Well, not what goes into the mouth.  We call that a uzda, the

18    metal part.  He just had the bit around, without the thing that goes

19    inside the mouth, without that metal bit.

20       Q.   So he just had the piece of harness that surrounded his nose.  He

21    had no metal bit in his mouth; correct?

22       A.   He didn't, no.

23       Q.   Did you -- you've told us about a shed.  Did you go into that shed

24    and look for either a saddle or a bridle with a bit?

25       A.   No.

Page 2193












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 2194

 1       Q.   Now, would I be correct in saying that a horse that is to be

 2    ridden ordinarily would have shoes on its feet, would have a saddle put on

 3    it, and would have a bridle with a bit?  Isn't that correct?

 4       A.   Well, probably he did have a bridle and saddle, the owner, but I

 5    didn't need it.  I wasn't intending to keep it for myself.  I was going to

 6    refuse anyway.  But he probably did.  But that's not what I was looking

 7    for.

 8       Q.   Did you get up onto this horse?

 9       A.   I did.

10       Q.   And how is it that you got up onto this horse without a saddle and

11    without stirrups?

12       A.   Well, I went upwards and took him to a place that was downwards,

13    and I'd ridden horses when I was younger hundreds of times.

14       Q.   So let me see if I understand what you're telling us.  You took

15    the horse to a sloped part on the meadow and you were able to mount the

16    horse by standing on a --

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   -- higher part of the meadow?  Am I correct in thinking --

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Am I correct in thinking that that would have required you to jump

21    up onto the horse?

22       A.   No.  No.  You see, the bank -- embankment was a little raised.  I

23    didn't actually have to make any precipitous movement and jump that way.

24       Q.   So your testimony is that you mounted this horse, that you have no

25    personal knowledge whether this horse has been broken for riding or

Page 2195

 1    trained for riding, that you mount this unknown horse without a saddle and

 2    without a bridle with a bit; is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes.  It was an old horse.

 4       Q.   And as soon as you were up on this horse, you begin to ride to

 5    Visegrad?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And are you able to control the horse even though it has no bit in

 8    its mouth?

 9       A.   I could.  It was a calm horse.  It was a very calm horse.  If he

10    was a young -- to tell you the truth, if he was a younger horse, I

11    wouldn't dare, but he was a calm, old horse.  I knew that.

12       Q.   You knew that before you went for the horse or you knew after you

13    arrived?

14       A.   When I saw it.

15       Q.   At the time you went up to look for the horse, you did not know

16    the age of the horse or whether it had been trained for riding; correct?

17       A.   No.  I stroked it.  And you see, a horse -- well, I wouldn't have

18    dared if it was a young horse, a younger horse.  A younger horse, you

19    know, he would have moved around.  I wouldn't dare.  Even if I had ridden

20    horses before, I wouldn't dare.  I would have if he had a bit and bridle.

21       Q.   Now, the area where the horse was --

22            THE INTERPRETER:  "Reins."  Sorry, not "bit," "reins."

23    Interpreter's note.

24            MR. GROOME:

25       Q.   The area where the horse -- you found the horse, would it be fair

Page 2196

 1    for me to say that it was a very rural area with many meadows and many

 2    hillsides?

 3       A.   There are lots of houses up there.  There are.

 4       Q.   Houses belonging to only Muslims or Muslims and Serbs?

 5       A.   Up there?  Well, I don't know what villages.  I think they're

 6    Muslim.  Vucine are mostly Muslims.  Now, which those villages were, I

 7    think they were Muslim.  I'm not sure, because they're tied to Dobrun

 8    further on up.  I'm sure there are Serb houses, too, but the majority are

 9    Muslim villages.

10       Q.   Would I be correct in saying that with respect to grass for the

11    horse to graze on, there was substantially more grazing area for the horse

12    in Vucine than on the abandoned railroad tracks where you brought the

13    horse?  Is that correct?

14       A.   Well, let me tell you.  I wanted to take him up to Drinsko, the

15    Serbian village, if somebody would take him.  But nobody would take him up

16    there in Pionirska.  And up there they were Muslim villages, so I rode

17    him.  I liked -- I liked to ride.  Like a -- as a -- when I was a child, I

18    fell lots of time.  I had to go to hospital once or twice falling off a

19    horse before.

20       Q.   Would you agree that with respect to the amount of food or grass

21    available for the horse, that there was more grazing land where the horse

22    was as opposed to where you let the horse go?  Yes or no, please.

23       A.   Well, there is grass up there, enough.  All over.  There was grass

24    all over the place.  It was summertime.  Yes, there was grass.

25       Q.   When you let the horse go by the railroad tracks, how did you know

Page 2197

 1    that the horse would go to this village of Drinsko rather than simply go

 2    home?

 3       A.   Well, I would --

 4       Q.   Just a minute.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Domazet.

 6            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I understood

 7    correctly, and I think that the English text reads that way, the question

 8    was translated as saying that Mr. Vasiljevic let the horse go.  But he

 9    fell with that horse.  He didn't let him go anywhere.  So I think that

10    question is a leading one for something that was not stated in the

11    examination-in-chief.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  It's perfectly permissible to ask leading questions

13    in cross-examination.  The only problem that I would have with it is that

14    it appears to be put as a version which the witness has already given.

15            I think you'll have to sort that one out, Mr. Groome.  That is

16    certainly the way I understood it when the question was asked, and I was

17    thinking of precisely -- myself wondering how he let it go, let the horse

18    go.

19            MR. GROOME:  I apologise for that, Your Honour.

20       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, you told us it was your intention to let the horse

21    go by the railroad tracks so that it would travel down the railroad tracks

22    to the village of Drinsko; correct?

23       A.   Yes.  That's what I intended to do.

24       Q.   And you intended that as you took that horse out of the meadow

25    where you found it grazing by the plum tree; correct?

Page 2198

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Why was it that you believed if you let this horse go on the

 3    railroad tracks that go to Drinsko that the horse was going to follow

 4    those railroad tracks to Drinsko instead of simply going back to its home

 5    where you took it from?

 6       A.   Well, it had to go back through the town, and I don't think the

 7    horse would have gone back through town.  I think he would have chosen the

 8    open space.  But he could have gone back.

 9       Q.   You've told us about all of your experience with horses.  Maybe

10    you can tell us, isn't it quite common for a horse, if it gets lost or

11    gets loose, will very often return to a place that it knows, a place that

12    it -- to its home, to where its owners live?

13       A.   Well, yes.  A horse wants to go back usually, but that's why I was

14    going to take him up on the railroad tracks.  I don't know if he would

15    know how to get back.  I would take him up there to Duca and he would go

16    to the village, and somebody would take him in the village.

17       Q.   Now, when you rode the horseback towards Visegrad, you went back

18    down along Pionirska Street; correct?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   And approximately how long did it take you to ride the horse from

21    where you found it to where you had the drink with (redacted)?

22       A.   About ten minutes perhaps.

23       Q.   And how long did you spend up where the horse -- where you found

24    the horse?  How long did you remain there?

25       A.   Not long.  Not long.

Page 2199

 1       Q.   More than five minutes?

 2       A.   Five, ten minutes perhaps.

 3       Q.   So if I understand you correctly, you arrived back at the house on

 4    Pionirska Street, where you saw Mujo, approximately 20 minutes after you

 5    left?

 6       A.   I didn't quite understand.  Do you mean in the house or by the

 7    house?  I went back by the house.  The same -- I went back the same

 8    street, the same way.

 9       Q.   And you would have passed by where you and Mujo had the drink,

10    approximately 20 minutes after you left; correct?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And what did you see?

13       A.   It was windy and it was about to rain, that kind of thing.  There

14    was a strong wind blowing, and it looked as if it was going to rain.  I

15    don't remember seeing Mujo, the people, any more.  I was riding the horse

16    until I reached town.

17       Q.   When you left Mujo the first time, did you -- you knew that you

18    would be coming back in that direction; correct?

19       A.   Yes.  I had no other way to take.  Perhaps I could have gone

20    roundabout, taken a roundabout route, but that was the only short route,

21    the shortest way of getting there.

22       Q.   So did you expect to see Mujo again as you passed by?

23       A.   I don't know.  It was -- it was -- there was a storm brewing.  It

24    was windy.  It was going to rain.  They'd probably gone into the houses.

25       Q.   What I'm getting at, Mr. Vasiljevic, is that at the time you left

Page 2200

 1    (redacted), was it your intention to stop on your way back, perhaps

 2    have another drink from the bottle of brandy which you had given him?  Was

 3    that your intention at the time you left (redacted)?

 4       A.   Well, had I seen him on the road, I would have stopped.  Quite

 5    certainly I would have stopped, had I seen him.

 6       Q.   Did (redacted) give you any indication after you left or that

 7    on the 14th, he was going to go somewhere else?  Did you believe that he

 8    was going to leave where you saw him that day on the 14th?

 9       A.   No.  They said they would go the next day, that they didn't have a

10    bus that day, didn't have transport.  And I told him that I would come to

11    say goodbye, to have another drink, and I would have gone had it -- but I

12    broke my leg, they lost their lives, and that's how it was.

13       Q.   Would it be fair to say that when you passed the house, you could

14    not see any of the people that you saw there before?

15       A.   Well, I don't remember because, as I say, there was a storm

16    brewing.  It was very windy, and it was just about to rain.  I know that.

17       Q.   Well, as you rode past this house where you saw these people, you

18    did look to see if you could see them; correct?

19       A.   I don't remember.  Had Mujo been on the road, I would have got

20    down off the horse and had a drink with him.  I'm sure I would have done

21    that and stayed for some time.

22       Q.   But not only did you not see Mujo, you did not see anybody by the

23    house at that time; correct?

24       A.   I don't remember anything about that.

25       Q.   So is it possible that you did see people at the house and you now

Page 2201

 1    have forgotten?

 2       A.   Well, perhaps I did, but I don't remember anything.

 3       Q.   But your best memory as you sit here today is that you don't

 4    recall seeing anybody at the house; is that correct?

 5       A.   I think that's how it was.  I don't know.  I don't think I did.

 6    As I say again, it was just about to rain.  There was a lot of wind.  It

 7    was very windy.

 8       Q.   Did you see any cars or other vehicles in front of the house?

 9       A.   I don't remember.  I don't know.  Believe me, I don't know.

10       Q.   Would I be correct in saying that had you seen some cars or

11    vehicles that you recognised, that you would have remembered it?

12       A.   Well, had I seen Milan Lukic's car or him, I would have remembered

13    it.  I repeat, I just don't see -- don't remember seeing him that day in

14    town, or I don't know.  I don't know.  I can't say anything exactly.  I

15    had just left from up there and I was moving past.  I didn't stop

16    anywhere.

17       Q.   And as you went past the house, you did not hear anybody either,

18    did you?

19       A.   I don't remember all those men, women.  I don't remember

20    anything.  I am telling you there was -- it was very stormy.  There was a

21    lot of wind.  It was about to rain, and it was really a very strong wind.

22       Q.   Was it still -- given the stormy conditions that you are

23    describing, was it still light out at this time?

24       A.   Yes, yes, yes.  Yes, yes, one could -- yes, there was plenty of

25    light.

Page 2202

 1       Q.   I want you to think very carefully about this next question I'm

 2    going to ask you.  You have heard a number of witnesses express their

 3    belief that it was you who told Milan Lukic that they were there in that

 4    house, that you were the only person who knew they were there.  Perhaps it

 5    wasn't Milan Lukic who you told.  Is it at all possible that you said

 6    something to someone about the people at that house?

 7       A.   If I understand what you're asking me, that I -- that I told Milan

 8    Lukic that they were in that house; is that it?

 9       Q.   Did you tell Milan Lukic that they were in that house?

10       A.   No.  I was going from Pionirska, and less than five minutes later,

11    riding this horse, I fell off it and broke my leg.  I did not see Milan.

12    I could not see him because five or ten minutes after I left Pionirska

13    down to the restaurant, that is where I fell and broke my leg and ...

14       Q.   Did you say anything to anybody about the Muslims in that house on

15    that day?

16       A.   No way.  I couldn't.  I returned with the horse, fell off it,

17    broke my leg.

18       Q.   Are you absolutely sure you never told anyone about the people in

19    that house?

20       A.   I am sure because I didn't have time to say that anything to

21    people, and I had nothing to do with it.  I simply had no time to do that

22    because I rode past, and when I reached the grill restaurant, the horse

23    skidded, I fell off, broke my leg.  So I simply had no opportunity to

24    tell -- to say anything to anyone.

25       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, isn't it a fact that as soon as you fell off the

Page 2203

 1    horse, some of the first people to come and to give you assistance were

 2    White Eagles, and they came from the hotel right where you fell off the

 3    horse; isn't that a fact?

 4       A.   No.  No, it wasn't the Eagles, it is a witness who will be coming

 5    here, Pero Mitrovic, a teacher from Visegrad and his colleague, Djordje

 6    Miscevic, not the White Eagles.  And they put me in a car when the driver

 7    came, Zivorad Savic, not the White Eagles.

 8       Q.   Actually, I'm referring to --

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   -- a different Defence witness, a witness by the name of Hajro

11    Hadzo.  And I'm going to ask you -- yes.  And that person's statement, the

12    person says, "From my place I could hear Mitar scream in pain.  I saw

13    soldiers from the Eagles unit come out of the Hotel Visegrad trying to

14    help Mitar."

15            Isn't it a fact that members of the White Eagles came to your

16    immediate assistance as you fell off that horse?

17       A.   What White Eagles?  Well, the witness will be coming.  I believe

18    he was on the reserve police force, a teacher from Visegrad.  No, no, no.

19    And another one, I mean the other one, he was also a teacher.  But yes,

20    they were in the hotel.  That is true.  Yes, they were in the hotel.

21    That's true.  They held the hotel.  But not the White Eagles, no, no, no.

22    No, no, no, they were, I think, the police reserve force.  They are older

23    than I am.  They are serious people.  They took me in the car, and the

24    witness will be coming.  He knows who was there better than I do because I

25    hurt at the time.  What, White Eagles?  No.

Page 2204

 1       Q.   Do you recall anyone in a uniform of any sort coming to help you

 2    when you fell from the horse?

 3       A.   Well, the first one to arrive was Petar Mitrovic and Djordje

 4    Miscevic.

 5       Q.   Were they in uniform?

 6       A.   Yes, the reserve police, I believe.

 7       Q.   Were there other people there in uniform?

 8       A.   I don't know.  I mean, what shall I say?  When I fell, the rain

 9    had already started falling so that there weren't many passersby.  And of

10    course I hurt terribly.  It was excruciating pain and ...

11       Q.   Is it possible that you told anybody at that time, after you fell

12    off the horse, that there were Muslims up in the house on Pionirska

13    Street?  Is that possible?

14       A.   No.  No.  Do you know what kind of pain that is?  I mean you can't

15    think of anything else.

16       Q.   Now, I want to ask you about Mr. Lepenica.  Have you read the

17    statement of that witness who will be appearing on behalf of the Defence?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Now, Mr. Lepenica was a Muslim man who, together with you and

20    several other people, shared a room in Uzice hospital; is that correct?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And you shared this room with Mr. Lepenica and the other people

23    for a number of days; is that correct?

24       A.   It is.

25       Q.   Now, Mr. Lepenica, in his statement, tells us that you described

Page 2205

 1    to him and to the other people in that room just exactly how it was that

 2    you came to have this horse or be riding this horse; is that correct?

 3       A.   It is.

 4       Q.   And he will testify, I imagine, that you told him that the horse

 5    did not belong to this person up in Vucine, but in fact belonged to an

 6    imam or a Muslim holy man and that you killed that imam and stole his

 7    horse.  Did you ever say that to Mr. Lepenica or any of the other people

 8    in that room?

 9       A.   No.  I never told him that.  And there were two imams in Visegrad,

10    and I suppose -- I would testify about this.  There are two hodzas, and I

11    know both of them.  They didn't leave -- they didn't live far from me,

12    where I worked.  And one Muslim mentioned to me that a hodza had been

13    killed, not that I killed a hodza.

14       Q.   So you knew that a Muslim holy man by the name of Hodzic, I

15    believe you said, that he had been killed; is that correct?

16       A.   Hadjji?  I didn't understand.

17       Q.   What is the name of the imam who you found out had been killed?

18       A.   No, no, no.  He's not Hadzic.  Imam, that is a hodza.  A hodza is

19    a religious leader or something like the priest is with the Serbs.  Not

20    Hodzic.  It was a hodza.  "Imam," that is what you call them.

21       Q.   Did that person have a horse?

22       A.   No.  How could he?  I mean, he lived in the town.  They had a

23    house that is -- that -- a religious house just below Panos.  I know both

24    of them.  One was of quite advanced age.  The other one was younger.

25       Q.   Is it your testimony that you never said to Mr. Lepenica or anyone

Page 2206

 1    that you stole the horse after killing an imam?

 2       A.   No.  Somebody would have testified that he had been killed.  Imam

 3    is a hodza.  I think that there were two witnesses who spoke about that.

 4    And they are both alive to this day.

 5       Q.   Can you tell us, after having spent such a long time in the

 6    hospital, can you tell us the names of some of the other people who were

 7    in that hospital room that you shared with Mr. Lepenica?

 8       A.   Well, I see that he says eight, six.  Well, he changed rooms, as

 9    far as I can see, four times, but he was there, and I, and two Serbs from

10    Uzice, one man quite elderly.  I know he had some knee complaint.

11    Lepenica didn't have a leg.  And next to Lepenica there was another Serb

12    who had been in a traffic accident, and I think that his leg got septic,

13    so he had to get the metal pins out of his leg because there was a septic

14    condition.  But I think that he changed four rooms.  I believe that we

15    were -- I mean, people who were bedridden.  Other people could move in and

16    out of the room.  I just couldn't.  I was just bedridden.

17       Q.   Do you recall the name of any of the Serbs whom you shared a room

18    with at this point in time when Mr. Lepenica was in the room too?

19       A.   That elderly man, I think his last name was Jovancevic, but he was

20    of quite advanced age, 70 or more I would say.  But the other one, I tried

21    to think about that and I don't know.  But one can find it in the hospital

22    records.  I believe his surname started with an "L", but I just don't

23    know.  He was tall, thin.

24       Q.   Now, Mr. Lepenica, also in his statement, says that on the wall of

25    the room you drew a picture of yourself riding a horse and that in one of

Page 2207

 1    your hands you drew the picture of a megaphone.  Did you ever draw such a

 2    picture on the wall of your room?

 3       A.   Believe me, sir, when I tell you that I wouldn't be able to draw a

 4    hand.  Draw a horse?  I wouldn't know how to draw a hen, if you will

 5    believe me.  To draw a hen properly, I wouldn't have been able to.

 6       Q.   Well, now, Mr. Lepenica, he's not from Visegrad, is he?

 7       A.   No.  He's from Gorazde.  I think he told me that he was born in

 8    Sarajevo or something like that.  I remember he told me he had a daughter

 9    who was married to somebody in Macedonia - I remember that - and that he

10    worked in Gorazde, that he was a cook there.

11       Q.   But my point is, Mr. Lepenica would have no way of knowing that on

12    at least one occasion in this time period you had possession of a

13    megaphone and used it, would he?

14       A.   I think it must have been a joke on the patients' part.  It must

15    have been that.  He said that I -- he says that I drew a horse.  No.  I'm

16    not able even to draw a hen.  I mean, forget the horse.  I never knew how

17    to draw.  I wouldn't be able to draw a tree.

18       Q.   But my question, Mr. Vasiljevic, is that not being from Visegrad,

19    Mr. Lepenica -- it would have been impossible for Mr. Lepenica to know

20    that you, in the past, had used a megaphone?  That would have been

21    impossible; correct?

22       A.   What I can say is that every day, various patients came, those who

23    were in the orthopaedic ward, and there were lots of jokes lying about,

24    all sorts.  So somebody -- somebody drew a horse.  You know, we're in the

25    hospital.  We're trying to cheer ourselves up.  Everybody's bored.  And

Page 2208

 1    they -- some of them could walk around.  I couldn't.

 2            So he -- what did he say, that I draw it on the wall or on a sheet

 3    of paper?  I don't know.  Was it on the wall or was it on a piece of paper

 4    that I drew that horse?

 5       Q.   On the wall.

 6       A.   I couldn't.  I couldn't possibly --

 7       Q.   Well, let me ask you this --

 8       A.   -- because I was bedridden.  I couldn't move.

 9       Q.   You seem to suggest in your last answer that you may have seen

10    such a picture on the wall in your room, and I ask you, did you see such a

11    picture on the wall in your room that perhaps Mr. Lepenica mistakenly

12    assumed that you had drawn?

13       A.   From a newspaper.  I know patients found it, and other patients,

14    and just stuck it on the wall above me.  They found perhaps a photograph

15    in the newspaper or something, and they stuck it up, not that I drew it.

16    I wasn't able to do that because my legs were fixed, and I had weights on

17    my legs.  I was in extension, and I had those weights on a pulley.  I

18    wouldn't have been able to turn and draw it, even if I knew how to draw.

19    I could perhaps have do something like that on a piece of paper had I

20    known - if I knew how to draw perhaps, but not on the wall.  Besides, no

21    doctor would allow me to draw on the walls.

22       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, was there a picture of a horse on a wall above

23    you?

24       A.   Yes, they did.  They did, from a newspaper.

25       Q.   And did the person on that horse have a megaphone?

Page 2209

 1       A.   Well, believe me, perhaps -- well, people kept bringing me

 2    newspapers and pictures, especially there would be a colour photograph

 3    with a horse.  You know, patients will always be patients.  They're trying

 4    to make jokes.  What do you do in the hospital when the doctors have done

 5    their rounds and we're all there?

 6       Q.   You've testified that you broke your left leg, the lower portion

 7    of your left leg, on two occasions, once in 1992 and once in 1993; is that

 8    correct?

 9       A.   It is.

10       Q.   And in 1992, you broke both the large bone and the small bone in

11    your left leg; correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Are you absolutely sure that you broke both bones in 1992?

14       A.   Both.  Both.  Yes, I am sure, hundred per cent.

15       Q.   And are you so sure because the doctors that treated you told you

16    that you broke both bones in that leg?

17       A.   A hundred per cent sure.  But let me also tell you, I think - I

18    don't know - if you break only one bone, then you do not need any

19    extension for your leg.  It is to strengthen your muscles because --

20    because the muscles will atrophy.  And that is why you have to put those

21    weights.  Because the second time I broke it, it was only the big bone,

22    and they did not apply any weights.

23       Q.   In 1993, you only broke one bone, the large bone in your left leg;

24    correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2210

 1       Q.   So it's clear, the lower part of your left leg; correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And are you absolutely sure in 1993 that you only broke the large

 4    bone on that leg?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And why are you so sure of that?

 7       A.   The doctor told me.

 8       Q.   Now, you've testified that for at least a period of time, you had

 9    possession of all of the X-rays that were taken of your leg, and I believe

10    you explained that somehow they have now become misplaced or lost;

11    correct?

12       A.   I had all these X-rays of the check-ups and the operation, and

13    they were all rolled up like this in a yellow paper.  I remember it well.

14    I must have had some 15 X-rays from the check-ups and from the health

15    centres, and I don't know where they are.  There were 15 of them.

16            I'm terribly sorry, but I must have -- when I moved house, we

17    threw away a lot of things.

18            And I showed this X-ray when a doctor testified here, and that was

19    the only one I had.  I must have had 15 of them, both of my spine.  I had

20    at least 10 to 15 X-rays.

21       Q.   Now, during the course of this trial, although none of us here are

22    experts in this matter, we've all looked at the X-rays taken of your leg

23    and drawn certain conclusions.  When you looked at the X-ray of your leg

24    in 1992, the ones that you had in your possession, were you able to see

25    the large bone in your leg broken?

Page 2211

 1       A.   Yes, you can see it on the X-ray.  Yes, you can see both, both

 2    these bones, the small one and the large one.  You can see it well on the

 3    X-ray.

 4       Q.   Could you see, was it clear to you on that X-ray from 1992, could

 5    you see the small bone broken on the X-ray that you had?

 6       A.   Yeah, sure, because the doctor showed it to me.  He showed it to

 7    me and explained it all to me.  I was told that I was -- that I had more

 8    than two bones broken, but you know the leg works because it could turn.

 9    In 1992, it could do like this, it could do like this, not in 1993.  You

10    could turn it this way and that way as you liked.

11       Q.   For the record, you're making a twisting motion with your hands to

12    describe what happened in 1992, I believe; correct?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   What I want to be clear about is that at some point, the doctor

15    showed you the X-ray of your leg in 1992 and to you, it was very clear

16    that both the large bone and the small bone had been broken; is that

17    correct?

18       A.   Yes.  Yes.

19       Q.   Now, similarly, in 1993, did the doctor also show you a copy of

20    your X-ray at that point in time?

21       A.   In 1993 when I arrived in the hospital, yes, he did this X-ray and

22    I said to the doctor, "Will I again have to have those weights," and he

23    said, "No, because it is a large bone that you broke this time, so we'll

24    apply plaster cast, and that will be it," and I somehow found it easier.

25    "How long will I have to stay in the cast?"  "Three months," and so it

Page 2212

 1    was three months.  And in 1992, I spent three weeks in extension and then

 2    had a plaster cast -- for 21 days in extension, and then for two months in

 3    plaster cast.

 4       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, did the doctor show you the 1993 X-ray at the time

 5    you broke your leg; yes or no, please?

 6       A.   Yes.  Yes.  1993, yes.

 7       Q.   And were you able to clearly see that the large bone in your lower

 8    left leg was broken?  Were you able to see that?

 9       A.   Yes.  Yes.  That's right.  Well, that's how he holds this X-ray to

10    show me, yes, and they all look at it.

11       Q.   And were you also able to see that the bone, the small bone in

12    your lower left leg was not broken; were you able to see that it was not

13    broken?

14       A.   It wasn't.  It wasn't.  You can see that.  You can see when a bone

15    splits.

16       Q.   Now, before you left the hospital in 1992, I believe you left

17    around the 10th or 11th of August, according to your testimony?  No, I'm

18    sorry, I withdraw that question.

19            When did you leave the hospital, according to your best

20    recollection?

21       A.   You mean completely when I was discharged from Uzice, when I left

22    the neurosurgery then?

23       Q.   Yes.

24       A.   28th July.  That's what it says.  I spent a long time there, from

25    the 14th of June until the 28th of July.

Page 2213

 1       Q.   And is it true on the very last day that you left, or the day that

 2    you left, you attempted to get into the room of Mr. Lepenica and to

 3    assault him; is that true?

 4       A.   Last day?  Why, no, my wife had come, and my uncle.  I never went

 5    up there.  My wife and uncle had come to the ward, and they are not

 6    adjacent.  The orthopaedic surgery is in one building, and the

 7    neurosurgery is in a different building.  So I had no need to go there.

 8            I don't know what he says.  I don't know.  He was in Gorazde, and

 9    I thought up other stories too, but I didn't go to the orthopaedic ward.

10    I was in neurosurgery, and of course I knew when I had to report to the

11    doctor for a check-up, and then -- so that is when I went to Uzice when I

12    had to be -- when I had to have these examinations, follow-up

13    examinations.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Is that a convenient time?

15            MR. GROOME:  It is, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Are you able to give us any idea, Mr. Groome, of how

17    much more time you will be?

18            MR. GROOME:  I'm definitely in the home stretch, Your Honour, and

19    I think it will be perhaps 15 or 20 minutes.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  So the next witness should be ready after lunch.

21    That's the purpose of my inquiry,  We're not complaining.  We'll adjourn

22    now until 2.30.

23                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.



Page 2214

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome.

 3            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Vasiljevic.

 5       A.   Good afternoon.

 6       Q.   I want to go back for just a minute and ask you a few more

 7    questions about your criminal record.  You've told us about your

 8    conviction and incarceration in 1973.  By my calculation, that would have

 9    been at the same time that you told us you were in military service, and

10    so the question I have for you is:  Were you in the military at the time

11    that you engaged in the conduct that subsequently landed you in gaol?

12       A.   Let me explain.  In 1973, I was convicted by the misdemeanours

13    judge, and in 1973 in November, I was to go to the army.  The public

14    prosecutor filed proceedings further, and at the end of 1973, I went to

15    the army.  In 1974, I returned from the army to the trial, and once I had

16    completed my military service on the 5th of January, once I came back from

17    the army, I went to complete the three-term -- three-month sentence.

18       Q.   All right.  Now -- thank you.  Now, when Mr. Domazet asked you

19    about your criminal record, you told us that this was the only time you

20    had been in prison; is that correct?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Was -- aside from being in prison, was there ever any other time

23    that you were convicted of a crime and perhaps received another sentence

24    such as parole -- probation or a fine?

25       A.   Yes.  Probation, a conditional sentence.

Page 2215

 1       Q.   Can you tell us when it was -- or excuse me.  Can you tell us,

 2    were you convicted of a crime then in addition to the crime that you were

 3    convicted of in 1973?

 4       A.   It wasn't a crime.  I don't know what year I was put on

 5    probation.  A man, a neighbour, provoked and insulted my sister.  And I

 6    mentioned him.  We didn't find a common tongue, and I hit him.  I don't

 7    know what year that was.  Was it 1980?  Maybe thereabouts.  I don't know

 8    exactly.

 9       Q.   As you know, we requested and received from the Ministry of

10    Justice in Banja Luka a report of your criminal history, and that is now

11    in evidence as P69 and P69.1 for the B/C/S version.  I'm going to read you

12    a paragraph from that, and I ask you, is this the crime or is this the

13    event that you are now referring to?  I'm quoting:

14            "Sentence of the Municipal Court, Visegrad, number K23/83, dated

15    the 18th of June, 1983, sentenced to four months of imprisonment, one year

16    on parole, because he committed a crime defined in the Article 53,

17    paragraph 2, and Article 55, paragraph 1 of the penal law of Bosnia and

18    Herzegovina."

19            And I'll read you paragraph 55 or Article 55, paragraph 1 so that

20    you know what exactly is contained in this.

21            "If a person imperils the security of persons by a serious threat

22    to attack upon life or limb of the persons in question or if in that way

23    he causes anxiety among citizens, he shall be punished by imprisonment for

24    a term not exceeding five years."

25            Is that the event that you are talking about on -- a conviction of

Page 2216

 1    the 18th of June, 1983?

 2       A.   Yes, but it's not like that.  It wasn't sent properly.  Four

 3    months of prison and one year on probation.  That is what it was.  It

 4    wasn't like you said, one year parole or whatever you said.  Four months

 5    of prison sentence and one year on probation.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Domazet.  I was waiting for your client to

 7    finish.

 8            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] [No translation]  In the

 9    translation, I heard "four years and one month," whereas when I read it

10    from the screen, it said the other way round, "four months and one year."

11    So I'm not sure that the accused understood.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  I was waiting for the translation which

13    somehow was delayed.

14            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  What is it you said, Mr. Groome?

16            MR. GROOME:  Four months' imprisonment and one year on parole.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  That's the dispute then, Mr. Domazet.  Your client

18    says it's the other way around, but Mr. Groome is suggesting it is the way

19    he put it.  It's a matter which your client can deal with, and if

20    necessary, you can produce the document, one or the other side.

21            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes, I know, but it was --

22            JUDGE HUNT:  I understand your problem, but I think that we're now

23    clear.

24            You proceed, Mr. Groome.

25            MR. GROOME:

Page 2217

 1       Q.   Is that the event that you are describing?  It sounds like an

 2    altercation between yourself and someone else.

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Now, the other person, was the other person convicted of any

 5    crime?

 6       A.   Yes.  He was convicted, too.

 7       Q.   And what was his sentence?

 8       A.   He was in courts all the time.  I don't know.  I mean, for the

 9    same, yes, for the same crime.

10       Q.   And what was his nationality?

11       A.   A Serb.

12       Q.   Now, was there another time in 1983, during the same month, in

13    June, that you were also before the Municipal Court in Visegrad?

14       A.   Well, I would never have remembered it, but the lawyer brought me

15    a cheque which wasn't covered.  I thought that I had not taken some books,

16    perhaps, that I had forgotten to take some books, but the issuance of a

17    cheque without something to cover it.  I remember him saying that.

18            I think that I had picked up my salary before my company had

19    actually paid it into the bank.  This happened from time to time, and I

20    received a fine.  It wasn't a big sentence, a big fine, but it happened

21    very frequently to everyone.  We would pick up our salaries on the basis

22    of a cheque before our company had paid in the money.

23       Q.   And so you were -- in all, you've been convicted of three crimes

24    in your lifetime; is that correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2218

 1       Q.   Now, before the break, I was asking you a few questions about your

 2    interaction with [redacted] in the hospital.  During the course of your

 3    stay there, did you ever make [redacted] sing Chetnik songs?

 4       A.   I couldn't force him to do that.  He's saying these things now.

 5    He was in hospital three months.  Now, what he -- who he talked about this

 6    to, what he did, I don't ...

 7       Q.   Well, you've read his statement and you see that he says that you

 8    forced him.  Did you ever force him to sing songs by way of threat?  If

 9    you were confined to your bed and were unable to physically force him, did

10    you ever make a threat to him in order to get him to sing Chetnik songs?

11       A.   No, I couldn't do that, and I think that [redacted]

12    [redacted], and if he heard that I had set fire to one house and another

13    house as -- well, he could say anything.  I don't know.

14       Q.   He also says in his statement that you called him a derogatory

15    term that Serbs use for Muslims around this time period, and that is

16    "balija."  Did you call him a balija while you were in the room with him

17    in the hospital?

18       A.   He can say what he likes.  How do I know?

19       Q.   Well, I'm asking you:  Did you say that?

20       A.   Well, no, I didn't.  No, why would I say that?  No.

21       Q.   He also says that despite having his leg recently amputated, a

22    reason for him also being in the hospital, that you also forced him to

23    clean the toilet in the room, sometimes several times a day.  Is that

24    true?

25       A.   We didn't even have a toilet in the room.

Page 2219

 1       Q.   Was there a toilet nearby that the patients in your room would

 2    use?

 3       A.   Well, it was out in the corridor, but our room didn't have a

 4    toilet.  I didn't use it either, because I was bedridden with the weights

 5    on me.

 6       Q.   [redacted]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2220

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6       A.   That's what the doctor wrote.  I don't know.  On that day, that

 7    particular day -- oh, I don't know.  How can I explain this to you?  I was

 8    quite distraught.  My nerves were not good.  I wasn't feeling well, and

 9    they had to tie me up when they took me to the neuropsychological,

10    psychiatric ward.  Somebody pushed me, a woman.  I was on with -- walking

11    with crutches.  She said that I had told her something.  I don't know what

12    was the matter with me.  I felt afraid.  I wasn't feeling well.  I was

13    just not myself.

14       Q.   Isn't it a fact that one of the reasons you were restrained was

15    because of your violent behaviour in the hospital?

16       A.   Well, I made a lot of noise, to tell you the truth, to be quite

17    frank.  I don't have to hide anything.  I shouted a lot.  I didn't want to

18    go home.  And when I saw a wound and -- I thought that it was death.  If I

19    would see a pigeon, I thought that my luck had turned.  I hadn't got the

20    feeling that I was able to get hold of myself, to stabilise myself, if I

21    can put it that way.  I just couldn't get a grip on myself.

22       Q.   Let me ask you again, did you have any physical altercation with

23    [redacted] during the time you were in Uzice hospital?

24       A.   Well, he doesn't say that, but doctor wrote something down.  I

25    don't know.  I must have said something bad or -- I don't know.  I

Page 2221












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Page 2222

 1    can't -- what can I say?  I was completely -- I wasn't good, as far as I

 2    remember.  I know that they took me away to the neuropsychiatric ward.

 3       Q. [redacted] says that during the stay in the hospital, that you

 4    used to brag to him and to the other sick people in the room about the

 5    number of Muslims that you killed on the bridge over the Drina.  He said

 6    that you claimed to have killed them by hitting them with a wooden board

 7    in the head and that some of them had jumped into the river before you had

 8    an opportunity to strike them in the head.

 9            Did you ever say that or anything like that to [redacted] or any

10    of the other people in your room?  Yes or no, please.

11       A.   No.  And had that happened, somebody would have come to testify

12    that I hit somebody with a board.  Somebody would come to testify,

13    somebody who is alive.  How do I know what he heard from the other

14    patients?

15            What I want to tell you is this:  Perhaps the Serb -- other Serb

16    patients were not -- their conduct wasn't proper perhaps towards him.  I

17    don't want to say.  There were other Muslims in other rooms.  So

18    perhaps -- he was in hospital for three months, so ...

19       Q.   Well, mister --

20            JUDGE HUNT:  Just one moment.  Yes, Mr. Domazet.  I have asked

21    you, Mr. Domazet, please say something that you are objecting --

22            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  -- because I can't see --

24            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes, yes.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  -- both sides of the room.

Page 2223

 1            MR. DOMAZET:  I know.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  What's the problem?

 3            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid that by

 4    mentioning the name of this witness, we have not made a mistake perhaps.

 5    I place the witness on the list of Defence witnesses, although it was a

 6    witness whom the Prosecution and the investigators of the OTP took

 7    statements that Mr. Groome is bringing up now.  He was VG113.  That was

 8    the number ascribed to him.  And with that witness, except for that

 9    statement, I have not had any contact, and I do not know whether he wishes

10    to have protective measures; that is to say that his name should not be

11    mentioned in view of the fact that he lives on the territory of the Bosnia

12    Federation.

13            I'm afraid if we mention his full name and if this is broadcast in

14    the media, it might do a lot of harm, and the witness might not want to

15    testify, or that this is publicised can make problems for him.  So that I

16    think that it would be better to have used the number that was assigned to

17    the witness.  And as far as I remember, it was VG113.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, Mr. Groome, I haven't got the full list in

19    front of me but that's one of your numbers, 113.  Had you got -- sorry.

20    You sought an order or had you obtained an order that he be referred to by

21    that pseudonym?

22            MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  All of that -- maybe to clarify,

23    all of the witnesses that the Prosecutor speaks to are assigned VG numbers

24    for Visegrad.  Only a portion of those that we sought protective measures

25    for, rather to keep matters simple, we asked that their VG number also be

Page 2224

 1    used as their pseudonym to prevent another name for the witness.  So

 2    although he does have a VG number, we have never sought protective

 3    measures for him, and I am unaware of any need that he has for them.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Except for this: that the situation in which he comes

 5    to be a witness for the Defence is just a little unusual.  You very

 6    properly gave the Defence a copy of his statement.  So nobody has had the

 7    opportunity of speaking to him as to whether he needs them.

 8            What Mr. Domazet says, and I think there is something to it, that

 9    publicity being given to his name may frighten him off.

10            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would have no objection if we referred

11    to him by pseudonym.  I would not oppose that.  I wonder is it possible to

12    go back --

13            JUDGE HUNT:  Oh, yes.

14            MR. GROOME:  -- on what we've done today and redact?

15            JUDGE HUNT:  We can certainly go back half an hour.  Well, within

16    reason.  Half an hour might be a little difficult, but we can certainly go

17    back as far as we can and redact what has already been said.  But I do

18    think there is something to what Mr. Domazet says from the point of view

19    of perhaps casting some doubt upon his willingness to come along here to

20    give evidence on Mr. Vasiljevic's behalf.

21            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I have no objection to using a

22    pseudonym.  I do not have an independent memory that VG113 is his number.

23    If Mr. Domazet can tell us he's sure of that, then perhaps we will -- we

24    can use that number, or perhaps we can call him "Mr. L" or some other

25    pseudonym.

Page 2225

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  Just one moment.

 2            MR. GROOME:  I'm not sure he would appear on anything that the

 3    Prosecution has tendered to the Court because we never intended to call

 4    him as a witness.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  I was looking for a complete list of the pseudonyms.

 6    He would not be on that list.

 7            MR. GROOME:  Not on ours, no.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  All right.  Well, let's take him as VG200.

 9            MR. GROOME:

10       Q.   Now, my question to you, if you can answer yes or no - perhaps you

11    have already - refresh my memory, did you ever say anything to him

12    regarding you killing people on the Drina bridge?

13       A.   No.  I never killed anyone, and especially with a board.  What

14    board?

15       Q.   Now --

16       A.   I don't know what he heard from whom.

17       Q.   Now, VG200 also says that you talked, while in the hospital, about

18    your cleaning crew and how your cleaning crew was made up of mostly

19    elderly people.  Did you discuss or did you ever talk about your cleaning

20    crew in the presence of Mr. VG200 in the hospital?

21       A.   Well, I suppose I did, yes.  I must have talked about the cleaning

22    of the town.

23       Q.   And Mr. VG200 says that on one occasion, a woman came to visit

24    you, and she informed you that 12 of the people who cleaned under you were

25    so exhausted and frail and that they could not stand any more, and VG200

Page 2226

 1    says you told her that these 12 people should be thrown into the river.

 2    Did you ever say that?

 3       A.   No.  That's a concoction.  No woman came to see me.  What woman

 4    would come to see me?  No.  No, no.

 5            Frail?  That is that they lost all their strength and everything

 6    in about 15 days?  No.  That's not true.  I mean, that is something he

 7    heard about me in Gorazde or whatever and then he talked.  He couldn't do

 8    that, nor could a woman tell me that.  What woman?

 9       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, Witness VG200 also says that you had a good number

10    of visitors, primarily on Sundays.  Did you have visitors while you were

11    in Uzice hospital, aside from your immediate family?

12       A.   Yes.  I had visitors because I have very many relations in Uzice,

13    and friends.  So yes, they came.

14       Q.   Did you also have visitors that were military personnel?  VG200

15    says that he saw military personnel visit you.  Is that correct?

16       A.   Military personnel, not a single one.  Now, let me tell you, from

17    Visegrad, I know that the president, that is the manager of the firm,

18    Mirkovic, came to see me and brought me some cigarettes, or perhaps a

19    soldier in a uniform came, but some officer to visit me, no.  And I don't

20    have any relative of mine who is an officer.  As far as I can remember, I

21    don't think there is a single officer in my family.

22       Q.   Accepting that a military officer didn't come to see you, you have

23    just said that soldiers did come and see, is that correct, that soldiers

24    did come and visit you in Uzice hospital?

25       A.   Well, not only me, there were many patients from Visegrad.  How do

Page 2227

 1    I know?  I mean when somebody comes, he simply visits all day with all the

 2    patients in the room and how can he know that officers came to see me when

 3    they were military soldiers, that is, from -- every day from Roje, from

 4    Visegrad, from all over.

 5       Q.   VG200 also states that members of the White Eagles came and

 6    interrogated him at his bedside.  Were you present in the room when that

 7    occurred?

 8       A.   No, I don't know anything about it.  I -- I'm not aware that

 9    anyone interrogated him.  I know that from the Red Cross, a woman came to

10    see with him where he would go after he left the hospital, and I think he

11    was suggesting he should go to Macedonia because his daughter was there,

12    as far as I can remember, but I don't know.

13       Q.   I draw your attention to Exhibit D22; you have it in front of

14    you.  Did any of the people that you have listed on D22, did any of them

15    come and visit you in the hospital?

16       A.   You mean one person, or any one of them, or what did you say?

17       Q.   Any one of the people that you put on your list, did any of these

18    people come and visit you?

19       A.   During my stay at the neuropsychiatric ward, person 17 and person

20    10 came for about 10 or 15 minutes.  I don't know.  I don't remember

21    seeing those others in the hospital ever.

22       Q.   Did Milan Lukic ever come and visit you in the hospital?

23       A.   No.  No.  Never.  He never came.

24       Q.   I want to ask you a question about one of the Defence witnesses,

25    Dragan Dikic; what kind of work does he do?

Page 2228

 1       A.   Dragan what?

 2       Q.   Dikic?

 3       A.   Dragisa Dikic.

 4       Q.   Dragisa Dikic.  What kind of work does he do?

 5       A.   He is my neighbour.  He is a car mechanic, car mechanic, and does

 6    metal repairs, repairs cars, metal, bodywork of the cars.

 7       Q.   So would it be fair to say that he would repair damage to cars

 8    that had been in an accident?

 9       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes, he still does that.

10       Q.   Now, a search of our records has revealed a claim by a witness

11    that Mitar Knezevic, Dragisa Dikic and yourself committed crimes in and

12    around the town of Visegrad.  Did you ever commit crimes in the presence

13    of Mitar Knezevic and Dragisa Dikic?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   I want to ask you a few questions regarding your treatment after

16    you went to the neuropsychiatric ward.  When you were on that ward, did

17    you meet with doctors and discuss some of the concerns and fears that you

18    had at that time?

19       A.   Why, I did talk with the doctors.  In the early days, they gave me

20    very powerful doses so that I slept all the time, but they asked me

21    questions.

22       Q.   Did you discuss with them how you felt after your cousin had been

23    killed?

24       A.   I am not -- I don't really think that I talked with them about

25    that.  In the beginning, I think I didn't have -- I didn't even

Page 2229

 1    communicate with them.  But later on, and at the hospital, they will have

 2    those what -- what do you call it -- they have some kind of lessons of

 3    classes with patients or rather offer advice.  There is some counselling

 4    sessions, but that came later when I felt better.

 5       Q.   In these counselling sessions, did you discuss with them some of

 6    the things that were bothering you?

 7       A.   Why, yes, of course.  They talk with each one of us and then give

 8    you some advice, and there is a psychologist who does that, or they give

 9    us some tasks which we are expected to perform to show whether you can do

10    it, whether you're up to it to be -- for instance, in a room, to see

11    whether you can tend to other patients who are in a worse shape than you

12    are, to see if you can help them.  I don't know.  They have all kinds of

13    services.

14       Q.   Did you discuss with anybody, with any of the doctors in these

15    counselling sessions, your feelings regarding what occurred at the Drina

16    River on the 7th of June; did you tell them about that?

17       A.   I don't remember, no.  I don't know.

18       Q.   During these sessions, did you see the doctors, would they take

19    notes in your medical file?  Did you see them writing notes?

20       A.   Well, they always -- yes, keep up with you and they allow every

21    patient to tell something, to tell a story on something, and then they

22    listen to it.  And I suppose, yes, they do take notes because that is --

23    it is on the basis of that that they prescribe you the medication or

24    further therapy.

25       Q.   Now, Mr. Vasiljevic, isn't it true that when you were released

Page 2230

 1    from the orthopaedic ward, you, yourself, did not want to go home, that

 2    you, yourself, wanted to go to the neuropsychiatric ward; is that correct?

 3       A.   That is when I was at the orthopaedic ward -- in the orthopaedic

 4    ward that I didn't want to go home.  But truth to tell, I would have

 5    stayed in the hospital, because right across me in another bed opposite

 6    me, a patient died.  He was an alcoholic too, and he was barely 40.  I was

 7    very afraid when I saw that.  I mean -- and then the doctor said, "Well,

 8    see what brandy does to a man."  They fought for his life for an hour,

 9    perhaps two, and could not help him.

10       Q.   You've referred to yourself several times during the course of

11    your testimony as having been mentally broken at this time, and I'm asking

12    you:  Is it only the result of alcoholism or was it also the result of

13    some of the horrible things that were happening during the conflict that

14    you felt mentally broken?

15       A.   Well, I think everything, everything, fear, concern for the

16    children, and all those sorts of problems and alcohol.  I was afraid of

17    war.  I was afraid of fame, and I was afraid for my children.  You don't

18    hear any good news, and it all added up to ...

19       Q.   Would it be fair to say that part of your emotional state at this

20    time was not only due to your fears for your own children, but some of the

21    acts that you had witnessed being committed against other people,

22    including Muslims, in the town of Visegrad?

23       A.   Well, all of it.  You simply hear nothing good.  At that time, we

24    absolutely heard no good news.

25       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, I just have a few more questions for you, then I

Page 2231

 1    will be finished.

 2            We've now spent the better part of four days listening to your

 3    account of these matters which are now before the Court, and I want you to

 4    think very carefully before you answer my following questions.  The Court

 5    will weigh carefully what you have said here during this trial as well as

 6    the other witnesses who have appeared before us, and clearly your version

 7    is very different than theirs.

 8            We have now come to your final opportunity to be completely honest

 9    with the Court, if you haven't been so far, regarding the role you played

10    on the 7th and the 14th.  I want to put the following facts before you and

11    ask you whether you admit or you deny them.  Isn't it a fact that during

12    the summer of 1992, up until the time that you went into the hospital,

13    that at least on several occasions, you associated with and participated

14    with Milan Lukic and his men in the commission of crimes against some of

15    the Muslims living in Visegrad?  Isn't that true, Mr. Vasiljevic?

16       A.   I was with him only when he committed the crime next to the river,

17    and I said when I was coming from Prelovo in the village of Rusici in the

18    house of the Witness L59's father.

19       Q.   Isn't it a fact, Mr. Vasiljevic, that a number of things happened

20    to you around that time that gave you the motivation and the desire to

21    commit crimes with Milan Lukic against Muslims; among those being the

22    death of your cousin at the hands of Muslims, among them your being sent

23    to the front battle line in Rujiste where you felt in danger; among them

24    being the arrest of your "kum," Sredoje Lukic, his being held as hostage,

25    and his dismissal from the police force; and finally among them your being

Page 2232

 1    forced to clean the streets in Visegrad with Muslims in punishment for

 2    what your -- your failure to complete your duty in Prelovo.  Isn't it a

 3    fact that all of those contributed to your motivation to work with Milan

 4    Lukic to commit crimes?

 5       A.   I never committed any crimes with him.  As for the 14th, I had no

 6    idea what he would do or that he did that.  I didn't know it until I

 7    arrived in The Hague.  And Sredoje Lukic was arrested in mid-April.  So

 8    why should I take revenge for his arrest?

 9            And what else did you ask me about?  That relative.  Why do I take

10    it out on anyone for my cousin who had nothing to do with it?  He was

11    killed on the ground, in the woods.  Neither his father nor anybody knows

12    how he was -- who killed him because that was in the woods.  Nor did my

13    uncle ask around.  I mean, people -- he got killed in the woods.

14       Q.   So, Mr. Vasiljevic, you would have us believe that during this

15    period of time, you had no feelings of malice towards the Muslim

16    population in Visegrad; is that correct?

17       A.   Let me tell you like this:  I could not set fire to a house, to

18    the smallest one, because I know what trouble -- how difficult it is to

19    build one.  And the rest of it, I hope I shall prove.  I could not do it

20    to a building because I know what it is to build a house.  I had a very

21    hard time building my own, and I haven't finished it yet, and I've been

22    building it for 15 years.

23       Q.   How would you characterise your feelings towards the Muslim

24    population of Visegrad in June of 1992?

25       A.   I lived well with Muslims, with my colleagues.  I never had any

Page 2233

 1    problem with them.  We always worked together.  We'd have a drink

 2    together.  After hours, we'd go to Rogatica, to Uzice whenever -- asked

 3    whether you're a Serb, you're a Muslim, we always got on very well.  More

 4    than 70 per cent of people who will be coming to testify for me are people

 5    that I do not know.

 6       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, can you give us one concrete example of during

 7    this time of turmoil in Visegrad when Muslims were being taken from their

 8    homes and killed and others were being forcibly deported and others were

 9    fleeing out of fear, can you give us one concrete example of something you

10    did to help these Muslims who you claim you always had good relationships

11    with?

12            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's addition:  In the previous answer,

13    the witness also said that these witnesses were not his colleagues.

14       A.   Let me tell you -- perhaps they are listening to this, but as a

15    matter, when the war broke out and when VG10 and others were captured, one

16    named Dragovic and another, Maric, they were young men, young Muslims, and

17    the Serb police had caught them with weapons, and they -- I let them out

18    on the sly.  And they are still alive.  I was the one who let them out.

19            When they crossed the hill -- we stayed down there.  But when they

20    crossed the hill, I let them go.  And I was criticised.  Well, not

21    criticised.  Why would I do that?  But I was the one who let them go, but

22    maybe they're listening to all of this.

23       Q.   So --

24       A.   And I testify about this.  I'm sorry.  Had I meant anything,

25    anything, had I had any ill-intentions, were would I have done that?

Page 2234

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, Mr. Groome, the interpreters have given us a

 2    note, and in the hurry with which they had to do it, perhaps it's not very

 3    clear, but you can see just coming up to the top of the screen now, the

 4    witness's answer:  "I lived well with Muslims, with my colleagues.  I

 5    never had any problem with them."  Do you see that answer there?

 6            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, the interpreters note, just after your question

 8    and before the answer is:   In the previous answer, the witness said these

 9    are also not his colleagues.  Now whether that means there was

10    contradiction in the answer or whether they're correcting that answer

11    saying "not colleagues," I'm not sure, but I think we better have it made

12    clear.

13            Perhaps you might like to ask the witness what it was he intended

14    to say.

15            MR. GROOME:

16       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, can you clear up what it is you are -- clear up

17    the Court's concern?  Were the people that you were referring to your

18    colleagues or were they not, these witnesses?

19            JUDGE HUNT:  No, no.  I'm sorry.  I'll read you -- it's

20    disappeared from the screen now.  I'll read you what he said.  The

21    question was:

22                     Q.   You would have us believe that during this period of

23                          time, you had no feelings of malice towards the

24                          Muslim population in Visegrad; is that correct?

25                     A.   Let me tell you like this: I could not set fire to a

Page 2235

 1                          house ...

 2    et cetera.

 3            And he goes on to deny the facts.  Then the question:

 4                     Q.   How would you characterise your feelings toward the

 5                          Muslim population of Visegrad in June of 1992?

 6            The answer is recorded in these terms:

 7                     A.   I lived well with Muslims, with my colleagues.  I

 8                          never had any problems with them.  We always worked

 9                          together.  We'd have a drink together.

10            And then he went on to talk about going to have a drink with

11    them.

12            Now, it's that which the interpreters have come back with a note

13    saying in the previous answer, the last I read, the witness said that

14    these were also not his colleagues.

15            THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honours, the interpreter believes that he

16    meant witnesses testifying in his favour, that those were the people he

17    did not know.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Right.  I think that's made it clear.  I'm sorry to

19    have done that, but when we came back to it, bearing in mind this is quite

20    an issue you're raising with him, I wanted to have it very clear on the

21    transcript.  So he's talking about the witnesses, not his colleagues that

22    he worked with.

23            MR. GROOME:

24       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, isn't it true that during the times that you were

25    present with Milan Lukic, you came to learn that Milan Lukic most often

Page 2236

 1    told his intended victims lies to get them to remain calm, to help him

 2    commit the crimes against them?  Isn't that the truth?

 3       A.   I'm sorry.  I didn't understand the question.  Could you repeat

 4    it, please?

 5       Q.   Isn't it a fact that during the times that you were with Milan

 6    Lukic and his group, you came to learn that one of the weapons that they

 7    used against their victims was to tell them lies, lies to get them to

 8    remain calm, lies to make it easier for them to commit crimes against

 9    them?

10            You, yourself, have given us several examples of this.  Is that

11    not true?

12       A.   Well, at Sase, next -- by the river, it's true that he lied about

13    the exchange and all that.  But what do I know what devices he resorted

14    to?  I mean, witnesses described me on Pionirska, something, but I wasn't

15    all that much with him.  I was his kum.

16            How he deceived those people when I went to the hospital, I

17    suppose he tried to deceive them in every possible way.

18       Q.   And even in the village of Musici, didn't you come to learn that

19    he told those people to remain in the village, that they would be safe

20    there?  Wasn't that another lie that Milan Lukic told the people to assist

21    in committing a crime against them?

22       A.   He did nothing that day.  I mean, harass anyone or took money from

23    anyone or beat anyone.  He didn't.  He really didn't.  Now, after a few

24    days, I could see that he had been there and taken girls to rape them and

25    (redacted), or - I don't know - plunder, that he took people away and

Page 2237

 1    kill them.

 2       Q.   You were present on the first day, on the first day when he

 3    gathered the people of Musici and instructed them to remain in the

 4    village, and he assured them that they would be safe in that village?  You

 5    were present that time; isn't that correct?

 6       A.   Yes.  He asked for weapons, who had any weapons to return them

 7    over.  Listen, I mean, that's Milan -- that was Milan's doing.  But he was

 8    cunning, he was clever.  He would never tell anyone who'd do that.  I

 9    mean, that's the kind of man he is.  I don't know while he was there and

10    then while he was hiding.  I don't think anyone knew where he was hiding.

11    Perhaps there was somebody, somebody who was close to him.  But I don't

12    think -- even if he told you where he was hiding, I don't think you should

13    believe his words.

14       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic --

15       A.   He's very clever.

16       Q.   -- isn't it a fact that during the times that you committed crimes

17    with Milan Lukic, you also told the victims lies in order to keep them

18    calm, to help Milan Lukic commit these crimes?

19            One of the examples, one that you've told us is to the people of

20    Musici when you told them it would be all right.  Isn't it a fact that you

21    also told lies to the victims of these crimes?

22       A.   All I can say is that I did not know that he would come back the

23    next day or the day after that.  That day he didn't do anything, and Milan

24    wouldn't have never told me that he would be going there tomorrow and

25    doing that.  I had no hand in it.  I could not send him anywhere or stop

Page 2238

 1    him from doing something, because the authorities did not stop him.  And I

 2    most certainly could not do it.  Milan is that kind of man.  If I were a

 3    member of his -- a member of his, he would have invited me to come to

 4    Musici.

 5       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, isn't it true that on the 7th of June, 1992,

 6    anything that you may have said to Meho Tesovic before his death to

 7    comfort him was simply a trick to ensure that he was calm and to make it

 8    easier for you, Milan Lukic, and the other two men to escort him down to

 9    the river and to shoot him and the six other men in the back?  Isn't that

10    in truth what happened on the 7th of June?

11       A.   I didn't.  On the life of my children, I did not know that he

12    would kill them.  How did I know that he was arresting them and that he

13    would do that?  He did not need me.  He planned that.  He decided that.  I

14    didn't.  I didn't.  I couldn't kill my colleague, I couldn't.

15       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, isn't it a fact that on that day at the river

16    bank, you were in fact in possession of an automatic rifle, and you did

17    point it at those fearful, begging men, those unarmed men lined up along

18    the river bank, and you fired into the backs of their heads and into their

19    backs in an attempt to kill all of them?  Isn't that in fact what really

20    happened?

21       A.   On the 7th, I never had a weapon.  After I left the prison,

22    never.  One witness said a semi-automatic rifle and another witness said

23    automatic rifle.  Well, there's a big difference between the two.  But I

24    didn't have it.  And even had I had one, I wouldn't have fired it, because

25    I knew that I had turned over my weapon - I know that - at Bikovac, at the

Page 2239

 1    command.  And even had I had a weapon, I wouldn't have dared before God,

 2    because these are people that I had worked for a long time with, and he

 3    taught me things.  He did not deserve that.  He was my elder colleague.

 4    We worked together for years.  And it's not all that easy to kill a man.

 5       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, isn't it a fact that your poor mental state was in

 6    fact the result of your guilt, the images of the crime that you had

 7    participated in on that day, the 7th of June?  Wasn't that a contributing

 8    factor to your poor mental state?

 9       A.   Was difficult for me then.  It's difficult for me now, especially

10    when I stand accused.  But I had absolutely no idea that Milan would bring

11    those people.  I had no idea what he was going to do.  He had planned it

12    all.  He did it all on his own, of his own back.

13            What am I to him?  He could have brought other people, and he

14    did.  I don't know what all else he did.  He could -- I know somebody said

15    that he cut off somebody's head and paraded it around the school.

16            Sir, I was -- I couldn't -- I was so small in comparison to him.

17    He didn't need me for anything.  What would he need me for?

18       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, on the 14th of June, isn't the truth of what

19    happened that day that after you convinced these people to remain in the

20    house, assured them that they would be safe, just as Milan Lukic had done

21    to the people of Musici, that after you had done the first part of the

22    crime, setting up the crime, that you went directly and immediately from

23    that house not to save some lost horse but to let Milan Lukic know that

24    you now had more Muslim victims on which -- upon which crimes could be

25    committed, crimes such as the crime you participated in on the 7th of

Page 2240

 1    June?  Isn't that in fact what happened?  You went directly to Milan Lukic

 2    and told him about the people you had convinced to stay in that house?

 3       A.   I tell you that I went to fetch the horse.  I couldn't see him.

 4    And Milan Lukic, he knows it better than I do, where they are.  So after

 5    3.00, when they came to loot them, eight to ten, as the witnesses stated,

 6    am I the only person who knew where those people were?  It's a street.

 7            First of all, I was drinking, and Milan wouldn't believe anything

 8    I said.  He didn't drink.  He didn't smoke.

 9       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, on the 14th of June, not only did you tell Milan

10    Lukic about these people, isn't it a fact that you returned to the house

11    with him and you remained outside that house while Milan Lukic, Sredoje

12    Lukic, and Susnjar were inside robbing these people of their last few

13    possessions?  Isn't that in fact what occurred on the 14th of June?

14       A.   I was never in front of that house, never, never, and never, nor

15    did I know that they were robbing, never, never.

16       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic --

17       A.   I tell you --

18       Q.   -- didn't you, in fact, as witnesses have testified here, assist

19    Milan Lukic and the other men in moving people out from the house by the

20    road and to the house at the back in order to kill them?  Isn't that in

21    fact what happened?

22       A.   No.  It was 11.00, half past twelve.  I was in Uzice, in the

23    hospital.  I couldn't have been present physically.

24       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, isn't it true that you did not break your leg

25    falling from a horse but that you broke your leg on the steep and slippery

Page 2241

 1    bank of the creek by the house that was set on fire?

 2       A.   I apologise.  I don't know if I've understood you, that you -- you

 3    say that I broke the leg by the house that was set on fire.

 4       Q.   I'm asking you, isn't it a fact, isn't the truth that you broke

 5    your leg slipping during the commission of the crime against those people

 6    when you went around the back of house and you fell on the steep and

 7    slippery bank of the creek?

 8       A.   That is a pure fabrication, sir.  I have witnesses.  They know

 9    where I broke my leg.  I have witnesses.  There are doctors in Visegrad

10    when I was admitted.  And this was happening at 11.00, half past eleven at

11    night.  It is a fabrication.

12       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, isn't the truth of this case that the crime did

13    not begin when the match was struck at the rear of that house?  It did not

14    even begin at the time that you convinced these people to remain in the

15    house, that perhaps the first act in furtherance of this crime was your

16    presence in Pionirska Street earlier in the day, trying to convince

17    Muslims who may have been hiding in their homes to come out and identify

18    themselves?  Isn't that in fact when this crime began?

19       A.   Sir, I have nothing to do with that.  I don't know.  On the lives

20    of my children I say this: that Milan would do that and that and what he

21    was going to do.  That I agreed, of course I did not agree.  Had I not

22    broken my leg, I would have told you everything otherwise, whether 1 or 50

23    of them were present, but I can't say -- I can't tell you anything about

24    that.  I can't tell you anything about the crime.

25            MR. GROOME:  [Previous translation continues] ... the Court.  I

Page 2242

 1    have no further questions.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet.

 3                          Re-examined by Mr. Domazet:

 4       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, Mr. Groome questioned you at length about what the

 5    notion of kum and kumship represents in the Serbian -- with the Serbian

 6    people, and in your particular case, the kumship relations between the

 7    Lukic family and the Vasiljevic family.  But you answered in detail and

 8    said who could be eligible for a kum and how you came to be chosen to be

 9    the kum at the wedding ceremony of Milan and who christened his children.

10            Now, if you remember, you said that it could have been -- asked by

11    Mr. Groome, you said that it could have been four members of the family,

12    you or your brother or the children of your brother; is that right?

13       A.   Me, my brother, and my uncle's sons; that is to say, the

14    children -- yes, my uncle's sons.  And let me tell you that I am the

15    eldest of the four of us.  So by order of seniority, I was to be kum,

16    although it needn't be like that every time.  But I was the oldest, so it

17    would be on me.

18       Q.   That's what I was precisely asking you.  Is your brother a younger

19    brother?  Your brother, he's younger?

20       A.   Yes.  He's nine years younger than me, my brother is.

21       Q.   So if I understood you correctly, you said that custom has it that

22    you usually follow the order of seniority.  From your father it goes

23    down -- it is passed on to the next oldest child, which was you; is that

24    right?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2243

 1       Q.   So when you answered Mr. Groome's question about that, you said,

 2    "My brother lived in Belgrade and I lived in Visegrad."  So that wasn't

 3    the only reason, I assume, but the reason you have just explained to us.

 4       A.   Yes.  It would be -- I would be the one chosen because of my

 5    seniority.

 6       Q.   When we are talking about Milan Lukic's marriage, do you remember

 7    that day well?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   It was a marriage ceremony?  A civil service, was it, or in the

10    church?  Did it take place in the municipality or in the church?

11       A.   In the municipality, before a registrar.

12       Q.   It is customary that in marriages of that sort, in addition to the

13    bride and groom there are two kums or, rather, two witnesses who attend

14    the ceremony along with other guests?  Other guests can also attend the

15    marriage ceremony.  Was that the case when Milan Lukic got married?

16       A.   No.  I had taken my son to receive an injection.  He was -- had

17    the flu.  And when I was at the bridge, Milan caught up with me by car and

18    he says, "Where are you going?"  I said, "I'm taking Nikola, my son, to

19    have an injection."  And he said, "Well, come on.  When you finish that,

20    be my kum at my wedding."  And I said, "I'm not ready for anything like

21    that."  You have to have a ring or anything.  I didn't have any money,

22    either.  And he said, "Don't worry about a thing.  You don't need

23    anything.  I have the rings."  So what could I do?  I couldn't say no.  I

24    had to do it.

25            So we went to the hospital.  My son received an injection.  I went

Page 2244

 1    home, and he said, "I'll be there in half an hour."  Well, I tidied myself

 2    up, changed my clothes.  We went to the municipality building and there

 3    was only the registrar.  I don't need to say the names.  Or, rather, there

 4    was this person representing the municipality.  I can't remember the name,

 5    what they're called.  He's the main person on behalf of the municipality.

 6    There was me, and there was a little girl, Vidakovic, the kum of Vidakovic

 7    and his wife.  We didn't stay there longer than five minutes.  We just

 8    gave their particulars, signed it.  We went to have lunch in a nearby

 9    restaurant.  That was all.  So it wasn't really a proper wedding

10    ceremony.

11            He did give me the rings, and I gave the rings to the registrar,

12    and his wife.  I felt rather uncomfortable having to do that because I

13    didn't have the rings.  So if I was kum, I would have -- actually, I

14    should have bought the rings, but I didn't have the money and he had the

15    rings.  He probably knew I didn't have the money to buy the rings with, so

16    he supplied the rings.  And that's how it went.  The wedding was over in a

17    flash.

18            I don't know.  I wasn't -- I didn't want to turn him down.  That

19    would have been a pity.  Now I know that -- what we should have done,

20    according to custom, but that's how it was.

21            And I christened their child as well.  I was kum at the

22    christening.

23       Q.   The rings that you say is customary for the kum to buy, the kum

24    usually buys the rings and brings them, but you say on this occasion, he

25    bought the rings and gave them to you to hand over; is that right?

Page 2245

 1       A.   Yes.  And had I knew ten days earlier, I would have done this

 2    myself.  You know why he was in a hurry, because his wife was supposed to

 3    give birth.  She was just about to give birth, so that's why everything

 4    was done so quickly.

 5       Q.   So that day in the municipality, there was just the registrar,

 6    that is to say, the employee of the municipality, the person conducting

 7    the wedding ceremony?

 8       A.   Yes, that's right.  But the person representing the municipality,

 9    the lady conducting the wedding ceremony, myself, and this little girl and

10    who was the kuma to his wife, to the bride.  She was the daughter of a

11    friend.  So she was the little kuma to the bride.  That's how it was.

12            THE INTERPRETER:  Could you make pauses, please, between question

13    and answer.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Did you hear that, Mr. Domazet?  Please pause before

15    you ask the question, and Mr. Vasiljevic, will you please pause before you

16    answer.  It seems so long ago since we had to say that.

17            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   You say "girl."  She would have had to have been of age to have

19    been a witness, I suppose, and she was the second witness at the wedding

20    ceremony; is that right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   So your wife didn't attend the ceremony, did she?

23       A.   No, just the two of us, and the registrar, and the employee of the

24    municipality, representing the municipality.  The deputy or whatever he's

25    called, and the registrar was a woman.

Page 2246

 1       Q.   After that, you say you went to have lunch, those same people?

 2    Those two and you two as kums?

 3       A.   Yes, only us.

 4       Q.   Is that customary, Mr. Vasiljevic?

 5       A.   Well, for a wedding, you usually have a big wedding and you invite

 6    your friends and family and lots of other things, you have neighbours.

 7    But in this particular case, he didn't organise anything else because his

 8    wife was just about to give birth.  So he organised this very quickly.

 9       Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Vasiljevic, how much time went by from that

10    day to the day when you christened their child, approximately, if you can

11    tell us?

12       A.   Well, she was two and a half.  I think in 1980 she was christened,

13    that's what I think.  Maybe at the -- I don't know, thereabouts.  She was

14    big.

15       Q.   She had already started walking.

16       A.   Well, yes, she was two and a half years old, more than two years.

17       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, I understand you to say that the girl was two or

18    two and a half, but could you have a look at the transcript.  It can't be

19    that year, all it can be is a mistake there, because as I see, and you did

20    say 1980.  You said 1980, which would make it 20 years ago.

21       A.   Oh, yes, I apologise.  1998, 1998.

22       Q.   On that occasion, did Milan Lukic have a ceremonious lunch or

23    dinner to mark the occasion as is customary?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Did your wife attend?

Page 2247

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, asked by Mr. Groome about Milan Lukic and the

 3    people who were with him, when it comes to how this group was called, the

 4    name of the group, you, at one point, said that it was called the "Chetnik

 5    Movement," the "Cetnicki Pokret"; is that correct, and if so, how did you

 6    hear of that or were there other names that the group was given or did

 7    they -- is that how they called themselves?

 8       A.   Well, I think, yes, Cetnicki Pokret or Chetnik movement, I don't

 9    know.  The witnesses said the White Eagles.  I never heard of that.  I

10    haven't -- didn't hear of the White Eagles, but ...

11       Q.   What about the term "osvetnik" or "avenger"?

12       A.   They gave that name to the group later on.  I know they had a flag

13    with the avengers or something like that, osvetnik, but I was on sick

14    leave.  I don't know what he did.

15       Q.   Asked by Mr. Groome about whether you recognised anybody in

16    Pionirska Street on the 14th of June, apart from (redacted) whom you

17    sat down with, you looked at the list and said -- and gave us a few

18    names.  Amongst them, you mentioned VG61.  Would you take a look at the

19    list, please.  And you said you saw part of his statement.  Now, did you

20    see that witness personally, and if you did, did you talk to him, or do

21    you only assume that he was there in view of the statement he gave?

22       A.   Oh, I don't know what I said.  Perhaps I didn't say it properly,

23    but I meant his father.  He was on the cassette, on the tape.  I didn't

24    see him, I saw his father, that's who I meant, on the tape.

25       Q.   I apologise to you.  Yes, I was thinking of the elderly person,

Page 2248

 1    the father.

 2       A.   Yes, I said the father.  That's who I meant, (redacted), his

 3    father.

 4       Q.   So you saw that particular person on that day?

 5       A.   The father?

 6       Q.   Yes.

 7       A.   Yes, I think I did.  He was a little fatter.  I know him, but I

 8    don't know his name.  He was on the photograph that they showed.

 9    [redacted], but I forgot his first name.  The witness mentioned it but I

10    didn't remember it.

11       Q.   Would you take a look at the list and see VG115, you also said

12    something in response to Mr. Groome's question, is that the person who was

13    with the group from Koritnik?

14       A.   I never saw her ever.  That is to say I did see her in Visegrad,

15    but not that day.  I don't know anything about that day, not that day.

16       Q.   Does this mean, Mr. Vasiljevic, that Witness VG115 you did not see

17    on that day in Pionirska Street?

18       A.   No, I don't remember seeing her at all at any time.

19       Q.   I seem to remember that you mentioned a witness whom you had seen,

20    that's why I'm asking you.  So if I ask you once again:  Are you certain,

21    did you see that person in Pionirska Street?

22       A.   I don't remember having seen her.  I don't know what I said.

23    Maybe I mixed something up, mixed things up, but she says that she saw me

24    the whole of June.  I was in the hospital.  She says Bikovac and Pionirska

25    so there's something not right there, but I know her well and if I did see

Page 2249

 1    her, I did not remember.

 2       Q.   One of Mr. Groome's questions was the direction from the hotel in

 3    the centre of town to Pionirska Street.  The question was whether you had

 4    seen anybody on that road on the way.  Now, my question is:  From the

 5    hotel in Visegrad going towards Pionirska Street, do you have to cross the

 6    bridge across the Rzava River?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Now, from that bridge to the hotel in Visegrad, are there one or

 9    more directions that you can take?

10       A.   From Rzava Bridge to the Visegrad Hotel, well, you can go via the

11    Drina, there is a road, or you can take the road through the centre, so

12    there are several ways.

13       Q.   So from the Visegrad Hotel to the Rzava Bridge, there are at least

14    two independent routes you could take; is that right?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   From the Rzava Bridge to Pionirska Street; is that the same case

17    or just one route?

18       A.   No, just one road.

19       Q.   When you said that you came across the horse, you found the horse

20    up above Pionirska Street, you said that the horse was tied, tethered; is

21    that right?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Mr. Groome's question was:  Why did you go to fetch the horse in

24    the first place, because he says that the horse could have survived where

25    he was.  Did you know that the horse was tied?  Did the person who sent

Page 2250












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13   English transcripts.













Page 2251

 1    you there tell you that?

 2       A.   No, when I got there, I saw that he was tied up, and he had

 3    trodden on the grass all around him.

 4       Q.   You said that you knew horses very well.  Could he have survived

 5    had he remained tethered like that and had nobody to come and take him

 6    away?

 7       A.   No, because a horse needs water and food.  But somebody would have

 8    come by and untied him, somebody could have come by and untied him.  But

 9    tied up as he was, he wouldn't have survived.  I'm sure somebody would

10    have come by and saved him at some point.

11       Q.   Asked by Mr. Groome about what you intended to do with the horse,

12    you used an expression several times which, in Serbian, you said, you used

13    the term "odbiti," and the interpreters translated this word "odbiti"

14    "refused," but that has no logic.  Would you explain what the Serbian

15    term you used "odbiti" means when you wanted to say that you --

16       A.   I wanted to point the horse towards this area so that --

17       Q.   So it's got nothing to do with "refuse," it means to point the

18    horse in a direction; is that right?

19       A.   Yes.

20            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's time to

21    adjourn.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Just one moment.

23                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24            JUDGE HUNT:  We'll resume at 9.30 in the morning.

25                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

Page 2252

 1                          at 4.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday

 2                          the 13th day of November, 2001, at

 3                          9.30 a.m.