Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2253

 1                          Tuesday, 13 November 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet.

 6            MR. DOMAZET:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                          WITNESS:  MITAR VASILJEVIC [Resumed]

 8                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                          Re-examined by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]

10       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vasiljevic.

11       A.   Good morning to you, too.

12       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, yesterday, Mr. Groome asked you a question with

13    respect to who had bought the bottle of brandy that you drank from in

14    Pionirska Street, and if I understood your answer correctly, it was the

15    following:  That it was the bottle that you had brought and that you

16    consider that in your conversation, you did not say that Mujo had gone to

17    buy it but that you had, in your statement.  Am I right?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, you said that you think that that is what it said

20    in your statement when it was written down.  I should like to read a

21    portion of that statement of the 17th of November in B/C/S, which I

22    believe is the original.  So could you tell me whether that is what you

23    were thinking of when you said it, and it is page 78 of the B/C/S version

24    and it says the following, your words:

25                     A    No, I only went, took the alcohol, the alcohol I

Page 2254

 1    drank with Mujo and that neighbour of his.  I don't know his name.  I

 2    wasn't, um, carrying anything.

 3                     Q.   That means that you brought it.  The witnesses say

 4    yes.

 5                     A.   Yes.

 6                     Q.   The question was the bottle.

 7                     A.   I asked Mujo were we going to have a drink.  "Yes,"

 8    he said, "let's", and I went and bought.

 9                     Q.   I seem to feel that you said yesterday that he went

10    to buy it.

11                     A.   No, no, I did.

12            On the basis of that, it emerges that you bought the bottle, but

13    if I understand it correctly, you didn't buy it then but previously

14    earlier on and you had the bottle already; is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   In answering a question with respect to the time you spent in

17    hospital, on two -- twice you talked about your transfer to the

18    neurosurgery department; is that correct or were you thinking of

19    neuropsychiatry?

20       A.   I apologise, I was thinking about neuropsychiatry, the

21    neuropsychiatric ward because when I had operated my spine in Zemun, I was

22    at the neurosurgical department.  But this was in Uzice, and as far as I

23    know, there isn't a neurosurgical department in Uzice.  It was the

24    neuropsychiatric ward.

25       Q.   When you answered the question from Mr. Groome with respect to

Page 2255

 1    some photographs or pictures or drawings, you said that often, some

 2    patients would stick a picture of a horse up above your bed and that this

 3    was a joke, a practical joke.  Does that mean that all of them knew that

 4    you had broken your leg falling off a horse or was it for some other

 5    reason?

 6       A.   They all knew, everybody knew, and they were making practical

 7    jokes.  It was -- they were joking because they had nothing better to do.

 8    They had a lot of time on their hands.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  May I remind you both to pause, please.  You are

10    stretching the interpreters with the speed.

11            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes.  Thank you.

12       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vasiljevic, talking about (redacted) and

13    your explanation and answer in response to Mr. Groome's question regarding

14    some sort of written document which the witnesses are mentioning, have

15    mentioned, you answered, but I'd like to confirm this again to see whether

16    that was precise, whether you remember at all having written this

17    certificate, this kind of certificate, because you said that if it existed

18    at all, it might have been a telephone number and address.  Did I

19    understand that to be your answer to Mr. Groome?

20       A.   Yes.  I couldn't have written any other kind of certificate for

21    him.

22       Q.   Mr. Groome also asked you whether (redacted) knew your address in

23    view of the fact that, according to what you said during your testimony,

24    he kept passing by your house.  Now, my question for you is this:  Did he

25    ever come into your house and did he know your telephone number or did you

Page 2256

 1    ever talk over the phone with him?

 2       A.   No, I don't think they had the telephone.  I don't think so.  I'm

 3    certain, actually.

 4       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, Mr. Groome asked you about cleaning the town.

 5    Now, do you consider that the sanction or punishment towards you was

 6    instead of serving a prison sentence, you were told to clean the town?

 7    Actually, you said yes to that question.

 8            Now, the question is:  Did anybody tell you at all that you were

 9    punished in any way?  Did they give you a document stating that or was the

10    cleaning of the town a work assignment or had your prison sentence been

11    reverted to this town-cleaning punishment?

12       A.   As a work obligation, you mean?

13       Q.   A work obligation in fact.

14       A.   Although they didn't say they wouldn't lock me up.  Well, later

15    on, I broke my leg, so perhaps I would have problems if I didn't want to

16    go up to the line, front line.  They had other problems.

17       Q.   Mr. Groome asked you how you dared to report the case in Sase to

18    the chief of police, Tomic, and were you not afraid of the consequences.

19            Now, did you have trust and confidence in the then-chief Tomic to

20    tell him something that might have jeopardised you or was something else

21    the case?  Was it because of something else?

22       A.   Tomic was the chief of police.  I trusted him.  And we're

23    neighbours.  We live close by.  We're not next-door neighbours, but we do

24    live close by.  We lived in the same street.

25       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, talking about the things you were accused of, the

Page 2257

 1    singing of songs for which you and some others were sentenced, can you

 2    remember the actual judgement for these convictions?  Were you singing one

 3    song or more than one song?  What did it say in the judgement?

 4       A.   One song.  That's what it says in the judgement, one song.

 5       Q.   Was it just one line or several verses?

 6       A.   Well, it was just a short song, perhaps ten words to the song.

 7       Q.   And what about the other case, the -- you said that you had come

 8    into conflict with a neighbour because of your sister, that she was the

 9    cause, but I think that it would be a good idea if you explain to us what

10    had actually happened to your sister, that is to say, what had caused your

11    reaction to this neighbour in connection with your sister?

12       A.   Well, the neighbour always made problems.  He was always going to

13    court for one thing or another.  He would provoke and insult and joke with

14    my sister.  I am the father -- I and my father cautioned him, but he

15    wouldn't listen.  And I was convicted to four months in prison and one

16    year parole.

17       Q.   So this was a conditional sentence, meaning that you would go to

18    prison for four months if you were to repeat that act?

19       A.   Yes, and one year parole.

20       Q.   But you never repeated that kind of act, did you?  So that

21    conditional sentence was never applied and put into effect, was it?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Mr. Groome also asked you and said that he considered that you

24    were the only, or almost only, person who knew that the people were from

25    Koritnik in Pionirska Street.

Page 2258

 1            My question is:  As you had heard -- as you have heard in the

 2    course of these proceedings that the people passed the Rvez bridge going

 3    up to Visegrad Hotel, and then from the Visegrad Hotel back across the

 4    Rvez bridge taking the Uzice road to Pionirska Street and into Pionirska

 5    Street, was that the centre, the actual centre of town?  Were there lots

 6    of people living there?  And how many people could have seen this

 7    movement?

 8       A.   I apologise, but do you mean in town or in Pionirska Street?  When

 9    you say "the centre of town," are you thinking of Pionirska Street or some

10    other locality?

11       Q.   I'm thinking about their movement from the Visegrad Hotel, through

12    town, across the Rvez bridge to Pionirska Street and the entrance into

13    Pionirska Street, which if I'm right, goes from the main street -- main

14    road leading to Uzice.

15       A.   Well, there could have been quite a number of people.  It was

16    town, buildings all round, the urban area, and they were in the police

17    station, as far as I understood, and then went to the hotel where the

18    police was and to the Red Cross.  That's where they -- the direction they

19    pointed them to, as they said.  And then Pionirska and the school, there

20    were soldiers up there.  The army was close by.  And I didn't know where

21    they were.  They were in the house, as you saw, by the road.

22            It's quite wrong that I was the only one who could have known.

23       Q.   Asked by Mr. Groome about the horse that you went to fetch and

24    what you were going to do with it, what your intentions were, you said

25    that you felt like having a ride, riding the horse, and then that you were

Page 2259

 1    going to release him and point him in the direction which you mentioned.

 2            Now, my question for you is the following, in concrete terms:  Did

 3    you like horses and riding that much, and did you not perhaps want to keep

 4    the horse a little while longer and be able to ride it before you released

 5    it, before you let it go?

 6       A.   Let me explain this to you.  I liked horses when I was a child,

 7    and my house had horses, and I had a horse.  And I fell off the horse and

 8    was in hospital, hitting my head when I was in eighth form.  I would earn

 9    for my books and for my -- the books and the textbooks that my sisters

10    used.  And my father bought some tar, buying tar.

11            And I liked horses.  I always liked horses.  And it was very

12    difficult for me when my father sold our horse.  I loved that horse.  And

13    I wouldn't change it for any other animal, especially a good horse.

14       Q.   Yesterday, Mr. Vasiljevic, I think you said that in Visegrad, at

15    the time, that there were two imams or hodzas as you called it.  "Hodza"

16    is the other name for "imam"; is that correct?  Is that what you said?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Where did they live, in town or out of town?

19       A.   In town, right by the Panos restaurant, in the centre.  Or more

20    precisely, from the post office under the Panos restaurant there was a

21    warehouse, and they had the Islamic religious house there and they lived

22    there.  I know both of them.

23       Q.   Did any of them have a horse, either one of them?

24       A.   No.  They lived in town.  I don't think they had a horse.

25       Q.   As far as you know, were you alive -- were they alive?  Sorry.

Page 2260

 1    Did you hear that anything had happened to them?

 2       A.   No.  I didn't hear that anything had happened to them, and I'm

 3    quite sure that they are alive today.  People would have heard about it,

 4    because they're hodzas, religious leaders.  People would have known.  He

 5    was the main man for religion.  And as -- a witness said that, but that

 6    can be checked out.  There's no problem.  It's no problem.

 7            One of them was younger; one of them was older.  So somebody would

 8    have said if something had happened to any of them.  One was 65 years

 9    old.  The other might have been about 50.

10       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Vasiljevic.

11            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  You may return -- yes.

13            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just one bit of confusion.  If I could

14    just inquire of Mr. Domazet, he referred to page 78 of a B/C/S

15    transcript.  Was he referring to the 16th, the interview of the 16th or

16    the interview of the 17th?

17            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Unless I got muddled, the B/C/S page

18    is 78.  It should be the 17th.  It doesn't say on the page, however, but

19    as it refers to the conversation and interview of the previous day, that

20    it was on the second day.

21            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I may, I'd -- if I may ask a single

22    question to Mr. Vasiljevic to clear up what I believe is a confusion on

23    the record.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Why?  It's a matter of re-examination.  You raised

25    the issue about it.  You can tender the statement or it has been tendered.

Page 2261

 1            MR. GROOME:  It has been tendered.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  What is the point of all this?

 3            MR. GROOME:  Just to clear it up for the Court for clarification.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Re-examination is re-examination.  Mr. Vasiljevic,

 5    you may return to your seat behind your counsel.  Oh, I'm sorry, my

 6    colleagues wish to ask some questions.  Go ahead.

 7                          Questioned by the Court:

 8            JUDGE JANU:  Mr. Vasiljevic, I would like to bring you back to the

 9    situation which was described by VG81.  You said you know her for many

10    years.  She says she knows you for many years, and you say you recognise

11    her immediately when she entered the room here.

12            This situation happened on May 18, 1992, and it's at transcript

13    page 1.220, line 18.  I will read it what she -- to you what she said: "I

14    went with my family to Kosovo Polje with the intention to work on the

15    land.  I was carrying basket with some seeds.  At the entrance at the gate

16    of the Mr. Vasiljevic's house, there stood Mitar with his wife and three

17    unknown uniform individuals.  Mitar Vasiljevic approach us and he wanted

18    my ID card, identity card.  He kept my identity card and he told me, and I

19    quote, she said, 'Don't let me look for you,' and it happened about noon

20    on 18th of May."

21            My question is:  If such an incident happened, why you wanted her

22    ID card if you know her for 15 years?  And my second question is:  What

23    you have done with this ID card?

24       A.   Madam Judge, individual 81 I know excellently.  I know her very

25    well.  She lived while -- before she was married, she lived in my

Page 2262

 1    neighbourhood one kilometre away.  I also know her husband, and I'm

 2    wondering she thought this up.  Now, why would I need her identity card, a

 3    woman that I know well.  I know her brother.  I know her family well.  I

 4    have known her for years.

 5            I worked in the -- in restaurants.  She worked in the municipality

 6    building, and would come and have breakfast in the restaurant.  I knew her

 7    very well.  I would like it if her husband came to testify about that,

 8    perhaps she'll convince him, but I'd like to hear his statement.  I'd like

 9    his opinion.  I'd like him to state his opinion.

10            JUDGE JANU:  So do you understand well that this situation

11    happened, you were standing in front of your entrance with your wife, and

12    she was passing, because you said with her husband, she said with her

13    family here, but you didn't ask her for ID card.  Do you understand well?

14       A.   No, no, I didn't see her.  I don't remember having seen her.

15    That's not true.  None of it's true.  I didn't see her there.  That's what

16    she says.  I didn't see her, and my wife will testify and say the same

17    thing, I'm sure.  And even if I had seen her, why would I ask for her

18    identity card when I know her?

19            JUDGE JANU:  So you are stating that this situation didn't happen;

20    is that okay?

21       A.   Yes, Madam Judge, just like the other things that she's been

22    saying.  She says she saw me from the 14th to the 25th, and I was in

23    hospital.

24            JUDGE JANU:  Can you tell me, Mr. Vasiljevic, what is the

25    profession of Mr. Lukic?  You are waiter.  What is his profession, Milan

Page 2263

 1    Lukic?

 2       A.   Milan Lukic, I think, completed secondary school for plumbing, for

 3    plumbing, plumbing secondary school, but I don't think he ever worked as a

 4    plumber.  He didn't actually work at all.  Now, whether he worked in

 5    Serbia, perhaps he did for a short time.  I know he worked in Switzerland,

 6    that he had a cafe there of some sort, but he didn't do -- he didn't

 7    follow his profession, what he was trained to do, and then from

 8    Switzerland he came back.

 9            JUDGE JANU:  So can you estimate for the Chamber that this sort of

10    education is done at 18 or what age he finished his studies?

11       A.   The school lasts 11 years, which means exactly 18.  We start

12    school at 7 and we finish school at 18, that is, secondary school.  And a

13    trade means 8 years of primary school and 3 of trade makes it 11 years of

14    schooling.  You need 11 years of schooling.  That's that secondary level

15    schooling.

16            JUDGE JANU:  And you said that you were no possibility to

17    socialise with him, that he left soon, he was working in Obrenovac,

18    Switzerland, Germany or some other places and you also said that there was

19    an age difference between you and him, and all this meant that he wasn't

20    present at the Visegrad municipality, is that true, for many years?

21       A.   Quite certainly, he wasn't there.  After school, he went to the

22    army for 15 months, and he never worked again there, but if he came back

23    from Switzerland for his holidays, that was for brief periods.  I don't

24    remember seeing him.  Mostly, I knew him when he was a child at school.

25    We sort of saw each other then, but not afterwards, and I'm 13 years

Page 2264

 1    older.  I think he was born in 1967.

 2            JUDGE JANU:  So am I right if I conclude that he wasn't present in

 3    the area for 6 years?  Because I think I remember 1992 he was 24.

 4       A.   Well, yes, thereabouts, 24.  He wasn't much older than 24.

 5            JUDGE JANU:  But after all those years of absence in the area, it

 6    must have been very difficult for him to know who is who, and which house

 7    belongs to whom.  My question is:  Did Milan Lukic ask you to give him

 8    information about people and ownership of the houses concerning the

 9    ethnicity of the people?  That's one question.  The second question is:

10    Did you ever give him such information, information voluntarily?

11       A.   Let me see.  As far as this area downstream is concerned, he knows

12    well which are the Muslim villages and which are the Serb villages.  He

13    has many friends from school there, and we all know which are the Muslim

14    and which are the Serb villages.  Whether he knew in town which are the

15    Muslim or Serb houses, he probably didn't, but I don't think he made any

16    selection.  All he cared about was that somebody was a Muslim.

17            JUDGE JANU:  So coming back to my question or questions, did he

18    ask you to give him information about the people and the houses concerning

19    the ownership?  That's my question.  Please answer yes or no.

20       A.   No, Your Honour.  He never asked me to tell him, never.

21            JUDGE JANU:  And did you ever give him at least single information

22    concerning this point voluntarily, without asking?

23       A.   No.

24            JUDGE JANU:  I would like to bring your attention to the VG14 who

25    stated here on the 13th of September, and it's transcript page 436, line

Page 2265

 1    7, and I will read it for you, and he, VG, stated that on 7th of June,

 2    when they were driven in the direction of Sase, so you were approaching

 3    the Drina River in the cars in the direction of Sase, "Mitar Vasiljevic,

 4    when they stopped near the house, said to Milan Lukic, and I quote what he

 5    said, 'That this was a Muslim house.'"

 6            Did you say this, and if yes, why?

 7       A.   Milan Lukic knew which were the Muslim and which were the Serb

 8    houses, and the house that is shown on the photograph is not a Muslim

 9    house.  It's a Serb house.

10            Kosoric is the surname.  Stojan is his first name.

11            JUDGE JANU:  You know, I'm not familiar with the area, but the

12    witness VG14 said when you stopped, you told to Milan Lukic that this is a

13    Muslim house.  That is in his statement.

14       A.   When the car stopped -- I couldn't have said that.  I wasn't with

15    Milan in the car.  He said that in -- that there were six people in the

16    Yugo.

17            JUDGE JANU:  With him in the car -- you were not in the car with

18    Milan Lukic?

19       A.   I was in the Yugo, with Meho Dzafic, the second car, another car.

20            JUDGE JANU:  And my last question -- thank you for this.  And my

21    last question is:  Evidence which was presented in this case suggested

22    that Mr. Gavrilovic had an official function in the SDS, Srpska Democratic

23    Stranka.  You also mentioned that after the funeral of your cousin, you

24    reported back to Mr. Gavrilovic in Uzamnica and begged not to be

25    imprisoned any more.

Page 2266

 1            My question is:  Is Mr. Gavrilovic, who you reported to, the same

 2    person as the one who has an official function in Serbian Democratic

 3    Party?

 4       A.   It is the same person, only I apologise if I said that I addressed

 5    him in Zemunica [sic].  He was at the command in Bikavac.  I was in the

 6    prison in Uzamnica.  So if I said I spoke to him in Uzaminica, please

 7    correct that.  That's wrong.  He was working in the command, and the

 8    command was up there at the hotel in Bikavac.

 9            So if I said that I addressed in Uzaminica, I should like to

10    correct that.  That's wrong.

11            JUDGE JANU:  Thank you.  And to your knowledge, what function did

12    Mr. Gavrilovic have in the SDS?  Is his first name Dragan?

13       A.   I know him as Drago.  It's probably Dragan or Dragomir, but I know

14    him as Drago.  He was influential, and later on, I think he was president

15    of the SDS party.  Not at the beginning of the war.  It was Branimir

16    Savovic who was president, and later on it was him.  I don't know when he

17    took over that duty.  Maybe it was in 1994 or 1995, but I'm not sure.  But

18    I do know that for a time he was president of the party.

19            JUDGE JANU:  Yes.  He was influential in the party.  Thank you.

20            And another question is --

21       A.   Yes.

22            JUDGE JANU:  -- did he give you the task of cleaning the street?

23    Was it him who gave you this task?

24       A.   Yes.  He told me.  We went to school together, so he said,

25    "Organise cleaning of the town," and I agreed, and that's how it was.

Page 2267

 1            JUDGE JANU:  And in what function did you -- did he give you this

 2    task?  He was your commander?

 3       A.   He wasn't the main commander.  He did have a position in the army

 4    at some higher level.  What duty exactly he had, I don't know.  He wasn't

 5    the commander-in-chief, but he was working up there in the command, and he

 6    was influential.

 7            JUDGE JANU:  So did he have any function in TO, Territorial

 8    Defence?

 9       A.   I think that -- I don't know how to put it to you.  He was --

10    shall we say, from the 6th of April, he was the most important person as

11    the commander in the military department.  But later, as those changes

12    occurred, then a captain came, Vinko Pandurevic, he took over.  But at the

13    beginning, he was in charge.  He was the main person who organised all

14    these things.

15            JUDGE JANU:  And my last question, Mr. Vasiljevic, is:  Who

16    decided that you wouldn't be issued a weapon after being released from

17    Uzamnica?  Who decided on this?

18       A.   He.  He wouldn't give it to me.  I handed it over to him, and he

19    didn't give it to me again.  I didn't want to go to the front line.

20            JUDGE JANU:  And you are the man who was in the army in your

21    regular service --

22            THE INTERPRETER:  Would you, Your Honour, please speak into the

23    microphone.

24            JUDGE JANU:  You were a man who was in the army in the regular

25    service.  Wasn't it not normal for you, because you told us that you were

Page 2268

 1    issued this weapon against the signature.  Didn't you ask, when you were

 2    deprived of your weapon, to have some declaration that you don't possess

 3    the weapon any more?

 4       A.   They didn't give me anything.  As I was saying when I spoke to

 5    him -- when I had to report to the command, I spoke to him.  He took away

 6    my weapon, and he said, "You will go to prison."  And I said, "Put me in

 7    prison.  I won't eat."  I went down to town an hour or two later, and then

 8    the military police came.

 9            JUDGE JANU:  I know this.  I considered this quite normal that you

10    were in detention and you were deprived of your weapon, but after you had

11    this task of cleaning the street, you said you were afraid and the

12    situation was dangerous.  Why you were not issued the weapon again?

13    Because after the return, you told us, from the hospital, you had these

14    psychiatric problems and you were issued a weapon after that.  So why this

15    period you were without it?  Can you explain this to me?

16       A.   You mean before I went to hospital, while I was in Visegrad?  I

17    didn't quite understand you.  You mean while I was in Visegrad why I

18    didn't have a weapon, before I went to hospital?  Is that what you're

19    asking me?

20            JUDGE JANU:  I understood that when you were detained, you were

21    deprived of your weapon.  After you were released, you got this task to

22    clean the street, but you said you had not your weapon back.  So my

23    question is -- I'm asking you for explanation, if you have any explanation

24    why you were not issued with your weapon.

25       A.   I didn't need a weapon any more.  I was in town.  I wasn't --

Page 2269

 1    there was no need for it.  I didn't insist that much.  What was important

 2    for me was not to go to prison.  I didn't need a weapon.  I was in town.

 3            JUDGE JANU:  All right.  Thank you.  Thank you.

 4            JUDGE TAYA:  When you were admitted to Uzice hospital as an

 5    emergency case, who explained the cause of your injury?  It was you or

 6    someone else?

 7       A.   When they brought me by car to the hospital, they took me to the

 8    admission department.  The driver gave these documents to those nurses, as

 9    is normal.  He probably explained that it was a fracture.  They X-rayed my

10    leg.  And there was a doctor on duty.  His name was Dusko Jovicic.  And

11    that doctor who admits a patient, he treats him until the end.  So I think

12    that's how it goes.  So the doctor who admits a patient to hospital.  Of

13    course, other doctors treat him as well, but the doctor who admits him to

14    hospital, he is the person most responsible for the patient.

15            So they X-rayed my leg, and they told me that both bones had been

16    broken, though I knew that already in Visegrad when they X-rayed my leg,

17    because Dr. Goran Loncarvic told me that already in Visegrad, that both

18    bones had been broken.

19            JUDGE TAYA:  No.  My question is:  Who explained the cause of your

20    injury?  That is you?

21       A.   Probably the driver told them.  I told the doctor whatever he

22    asked me.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  The question, though, is:  Did you explain to the

24    doctor how the injury was caused?  That's what Judge Taya is asking you.

25       A.   To be quite honest, whether I actually explained to this

Page 2270

 1    particular doctor, Dusko Jovicic, myself, I can't recall.  But later on,

 2    everyone knew.  I told them.  The patients knew.

 3            Now, to be quite honest, whether just then I told that doctor -- I

 4    don't even know whether he was present when the leg was X-rayed or was it

 5    being done by someone else, you know, specialists working with these

 6    machines, X-ray machines.  So whether I had told him just then that I had

 7    fallen off a horse, I can't really remember.  Maybe he didn't even asked

 8    me.  He was just looking at the injury.

 9            So I'd rather not say that I did tell him just then.  I really

10    can't remember.  If he asked me how the injury had occurred, then

11    certainly I explained it to him.

12            But they all knew that later on, everyone knew.

13            JUDGE TAYA:  Can you remember what did you explain, how did you

14    explain?

15       A.   I'm trying to tell you that I don't know whether I told him just

16    then or whether he asked me just then.  He just looked at the x-rays which

17    he had, those from Visegrad.  They did fresh x-rays.  They established

18    that there was a fracture, and he told me that both the bones had been

19    broken.  Now, whether I told him just then the cause, I just can't

20    remember.

21            JUDGE TAYA:  You didn't say that you fell on the flat surface in

22    the battlefield?

23       A.   No, I didn't say that.  As far as I understand, it says in the

24    discharge paper "from the war zone of Visegrad."  I think that's what they

25    wrote for all the patients.  Maybe it's because of the payment of hospital

Page 2271

 1    costs that this had to be indicated.

 2            JUDGE TAYA:  You didn't mention the horse to the doctor?

 3       A.   I'm saying that I don't know whether I mentioned it just then, but

 4    later on everyone knew, the doctors knew.  There was joking about it among

 5    the patients, and everybody, everybody knew.

 6            JUDGE TAYA:  Have you ever seen your case history which was

 7    prepared in Uzice hospital about you?

 8       A.   I don't have anything except what it says on the discharge

 9    document, but what else the doctors write, they probably keep these

10    records every day, so all the patient gets to know is what is written on

11    the discharge document.

12            JUDGE TAYA:  Were you asked whether you were at work or out of

13    work when you injured your leg?

14       A.   I don't think they asked me that.  I don't know.  I can't

15    remember.

16            JUDGE TAYA:  Were you asked also the day and hour of injury?

17       A.   They didn't ask me.  They knew the day, because I was transferred

18    on the same day from Visegrad to Uzice.

19            JUDGE TAYA:  They could know when you arrived, but they could not

20    know when the injury happened.

21       A.   On the same day, I'm telling you, I was transferred from Visegrad

22    to Uzice.  If he asked me, "Today," I must have said, "Today, yes."

23            JUDGE TAYA:  You explained also your job?

24       A.   I didn't talk about that.  No one asked me any questions about

25    that.  The doctor didn't ask me.

Page 2272












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Page 2273

 1            JUDGE TAYA:  You didn't say your job is reservist?

 2       A.   That's how they treated us.  They know that, what is written in

 3    the discharge document, Territorial Defence.  Yes, probably if he asked

 4    me, then I must have told him.  I told him whatever he asked me.

 5            JUDGE TAYA:  I think that information, that is to say, whether you were

 6    at work or outside work on that day and hour of injury are essential to

 7    obtain health insurance; is that correct?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9            JUDGE TAYA:  As to the witness list submitted by Defence counsel,

10    did you consult with your Defence counsel before its submission?

11       A.   You mean Defence witnesses, whether I consulted with my attorney

12    20 days ago or a month ago; is that what you're asking me?

13            JUDGE TAYA:  Whenever you have consulted with your Defence

14    counsel.  I don't know --

15       A.   I don't quite understand what you mean.  When the attorney came to

16    see me in February 2000 for the first time, when I decided that

17    Mr. Domazet should be my Defence counsel, I told him that -- let me put it

18    this way, when I gave my first statement, there was an

19    officially-designated attorney from Foca, Slavisa, and I told him, too,

20    that I had been in hospital.  And then later, when Mr. Domazet came in

21    February, I told him, "Vlado, you'll go to the hospital in Visegrad, the

22    hospital in Uzice."

23            JUDGE TAYA:  18 October 2001, Defence counsel submitted the list

24    of witness.  Before the submission of this list, you have consulted with

25    Defence counsel?

Page 2274

 1       A.   Whether he should call those witnesses; is that what you mean?

 2            JUDGE TAYA:  No.  Who you want as a witness and the contents of

 3    the testimony of the witness, you have consulted with the Defence

 4    counsel?

 5       A.   As far as the medical witnesses are concerned, I told him about

 6    Dr. Loncarevic in Visegrad, then I mentioned Moljevic and Jovicic, and the

 7    other witnesses applied themselves, the nurses and the neuropsychiatrist

 8    and the other physicians from the orthopaedic ward.  They offered to come

 9    themselves because they watched it on television, they watched the witness

10    statements and they, themselves, wanted to come.

11            JUDGE TAYA:  On that list, there is no name of Dr. Jovicevic who

12    treated you as an emergency case, also Piresk [phoen] according to the

13    case history of Uzice hospital.  There is no name of Dr. Jovicevic.  What

14    is the reason why he is not called on the list of witnesses of Defence

15    counsel?

16       A.   I insisted with Mr. Domazet, but as far as I understand, the

17    Defence counsel -- Mr. Jovicevic has to have his spine operated.  Maybe

18    Mr. Domazet can explain that.  He is ill, he has problems with his spine

19    and he has to undergo surgery.

20            JUDGE TAYA:  On the same list, there are no names of Dr. Gordic,

21    surgeon, and Dragana, nurse, who carried out the operation on 15th June

22    1992 according to the case history.  What are the reasons why they are not

23    called?

24       A.   I don't know why.  As regards the nurse, I know she was there and

25    Gordic, who drilled my heel.  I don't know whether Mr. Domazet spoke to

Page 2275

 1    them, but he can explain best.  I just told him to go to the Uzice

 2    hospital.

 3            JUDGE TAYA:  After when you received outpatient treatment?

 4       A.   I was orthopaedic department for 21 days.  I explained they

 5    drilled my heel and put weights on, and at the end of those 21 days, they

 6    put my leg in a cast right up to my hip.  Then I started walking with

 7    crutches, and they transferred me to the neuropsychiatric ward and I

 8    stayed there until the 28th of July, 1992 at the neuropsychiatry

 9    department.

10            JUDGE TAYA:  But after you left the Uzice hospital, you received

11    treatment as an outpatient?

12       A.   No.  I didn't have to stay in hospital.  I went for the first time

13    for the plaster to be shortened to below my knees; they call it a boot.

14    And then when I went for a check-up the second time, the plaster was

15    removed, and so when the doctors made an appointment for a check-up, I

16    would get a document from Visegrad to go and see the specialist.  I didn't

17    have to go to the ward.  There was a department on the ground floor where

18    they work, and whichever doctor is on duty, he examines the patient.

19            JUDGE TAYA:  What is the name of the specialist you mentioned just

20    now?

21       A.   You mean the doctor who was on duty?  Whoever is on duty, whoever

22    is on duty that day.

23            JUDGE TAYA:  So it changes every time?

24       A.   Yes, usually.  I think there are about -- I don't know how many

25    exactly, there were five or six doctors working in the orthopaedic

Page 2276

 1    department, and I also had to go for check-ups to the neuropsychiatry

 2    department, and in that case, I did have to go to the actual ward

 3    upstairs.

 4            JUDGE TAYA:  You never broke your right leg; is that correct?

 5       A.   Never, no.

 6            JUDGE TAYA:  Many witnesses gave testimony about some kind of

 7    certificate you wrote and handed over to (redacted).  Even after those

 8    testimonies, you cannot remember about the certificate; is that correct?

 9       A.   I couldn't have given him any kind of certificate.  I was not a

10    person who could issue any such official document.  If I gave him

11    anything, it could have been my telephone number or address or something

12    like that.

13            JUDGE TAYA:  Then this is hypothetical question:  A kind of

14    certificate written by someone like you, if there were, and if it was

15    shown to the police, it would guarantee the safety of people from Koritnik?

16       A.   You mean if I would have given such a certificate.  You're just

17    asking me as an example.  No.  Who was I?  The police has its own

18    superiors, people in charge.  They could just put me in prison if I were

19    to issue any such certificates.

20            JUDGE TAYA:  So according to you, such a certificate would never

21    have such efficiency; is that correct?

22       A.   Yes, Your Honour.

23            JUDGE TAYA:  My last series of questions concern your report on

24    the Drina River incident to the police.  You said that after the Drina River

25    incident, you reported the crime committed by Milan Lukic and his group to

Page 2277

 1    Police Commander Tomic.  That means that according to your understanding,

 2    the Drina River incident should be investigated by the police.  Is that

 3    correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5            JUDGE TAYA:  That also means that if you happened to know the

 6    exact place where Milan Lukic was, you would inform the police or the

 7    investigation authority; is that correct?

 8       A.   You mean if I knew where he lived?

 9            JUDGE TAYA:  Yes.

10       A.   I would, of course.  But I think they knew where he lived.  They

11    were living in Banja at the time.

12            JUDGE TAYA:  Such attitude of yours has not changed after the

13    Drina River incident until today; is that correct?

14       A.   I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.  My behaviour hasn't

15    changed?  My attitude hasn't changed?

16            JUDGE TAYA:  Yes.  If you know the exact place where Milan Lukic

17    is, even today you would inform such information to the investigation

18    authority?

19       A.   Your Honour, I'd like to know.  He's certainly in Serbia.  There's

20    no one who'd want him to be arrested more than me, because I'm being held

21    responsible for his misdeeds.  No one would be happier than me if he were

22    arrested.

23            JUDGE TAYA:  You said that in 1997 or 1998, you attended the

24    baptism of the daughter of Milan Lukic.  Where did that baptism take

25    place?

Page 2278

 1       A.   Visegrad, in the church.

 2            JUDGE TAYA:  You were informed about that baptism beforehand?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4            JUDGE TAYA:  Milan Lukic also attended at that baptism?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6            JUDGE TAYA:  Did you give that information to the police or SFOR

 7    stationed in Visegrad at that time?

 8       A.   The police knew full well where he lived when he was released from

 9    prison in Belgrade and then transferred to Sarajevo and Kula.  There was

10    an apartment waiting for him in Visegrad and new furniture and everything,

11    and he live there.  They knew where he was.  No one needed to explain it

12    to them.

13            JUDGE TAYA:  French forces --

14       A.   I apologise.  They gave him a coffee bar, too.

15            JUDGE TAYA:  The French forces of SFOR stationed in Visegrad at that

16    time also knew?

17       A.   You mean where he lived, whether they knew that?

18            JUDGE TAYA:  No.  Milan Lukic was at that time in Visegrad to

19    attend at the baptism.

20       A.   Yes, yes.  He was present at the christening.

21            JUDGE TAYA:  No.  My question is:  The French force of SFOR

22    stationed in Visegrad knew about the baptism that Milan Lukic attended?

23       A.   Well, I don't know whether the French forces were in Visegrad just

24    then.  The French forces were there from June 1996.  No.  I'm sorry.

25    Yes.  From June 1999, 1999, and the baptism was in 1998.

Page 2279

 1          JUDGE TAYA:  No.  The French forces were stationed there beforehand.

 2       A.   Yes.  Well, whether they knew, I don't know.  I never had any

 3    contact with SFOR soldiers except those who were living at my place.  They

 4    asked me whether they could live there and so on.

 5            JUDGE TAYA:  So you informed nothing to the police, neither to

 6    SFOR?

 7       A.   About the baptism, that he would attend the baptism?  No.  No.  He

 8    was in Visegrad at the time.  I don't know how to put it to you.  He would

 9    come and go.  He would be absent for two or three months, then he would

10    come back for a couple of days.  He moved around a lot.

11            JUDGE TAYA:  Thank you.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome, do you want to ask any questions arising

13    out of the Judges' questions?

14            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

15                          Further examination by Mr. Groome:

16       Q.   Mr. Vasiljevic, Judge Janu has inquired about an ID or

17    identification papers.  My question to you is:  Would it be correct to say

18    that if a person did not have their identification papers with them -- I'm

19    sorry.  Let me withdraw that.

20            Would I be correct in saying that at the various checkpoints that

21    were set up around Visegrad, that when a person would try to pass a

22    checkpoint, they would be required to show their identification papers?

23    Isn't that correct?

24       A.   Well, I don't know, sir.  I never worked at those checkpoints.  I

25    never controlled anybody.  I don't know.  When the Uzice Corps were there,

Page 2280

 1    they were probably in control, and they didn't know the people.  They

 2    probably controlled the Serbs, too.

 3       Q.   Well, certainly at some point you, yourself, must have tried to

 4    pass a checkpoint.  When you tried to pass the checkpoint, were you ever

 5    asked to show your identification papers?

 6       A.   Well, let me tell you this:  I had a checkpoint underneath my --

 7    there was a checkpoint underneath my house when the Uzice Corps was there,

 8    and they never asked me for that.  I lived there.  I would make them a cup

 9    of coffee sometimes, to be frank.

10       Q.   And did you ever see anybody at that checkpoint being asked to

11    produce their identification papers?

12       A.   Yes.  They did stop a car, for example, going from Zupa.  They

13    controlled everyone, Serbs and Muslims alike.  They would go into -- board

14    a bus on one door, and the passengers would come out the other.  They

15    controlled everybody, checked everybody.

16       Q.   And when they checked everybody, one of the things they would

17    check would be the identification papers; correct?

18       A.   Well, yes, personal documents.

19       Q.   So would it be correct to say that a person within Visegrad,

20    attempting to leave Visegrad, would not be able to pass that checkpoint

21    unless that person had their identification papers?  Isn't that correct?

22       A.   Well, probably.  Well, I don't know what they would do, how they

23    would regulate this.  I think all the inhabitants knew that they had to

24    carry them with them.  Well, somebody would guarantee for somebody if they

25    knew them so that they could pass perhaps that way.  That wouldn't be a

Page 2281

 1    problem either.  I think that -- that's what I think.

 2       Q.   You've also just told us now that regarding the police commander,

 3    Dragan Tomic, that you and him were good friends, that you trusted him and

 4    he trusted you; is that correct?

 5       A.   Well, we were neighbours.  We weren't that close.  We were sort of

 6    the good friends.  He -- in a neighbourly way.  He was seven or eight --

 7    he lived seven or eight houses away towards Visegrad.  He was the chief of

 8    police or militia, as we called it.  I knew him for years in that kind of

 9    way.

10       Q.   Would it be fair to say that other people in the area also knew

11    about this relationship that you had with Dragan Tomic?

12       A.   How do you mean?  You mean were we great friends and did we go out

13    together in times of peace?  Or in cafes, did we frequent cafes?  No.  He

14    had his own friends, his own circle of friends.  That wasn't it.  But

15    we're good neighbours.  That's our relationship, a good neighbourly

16    relationship.  Because I would pass by his house every day on my way to

17    work, and I would stop if I was going by car.  Or if he was going by car,

18    he would take me in his car and drive me, give me a lift into town, that

19    kind of thing, just like others would.

20       Q.   Would I be correct in stating then that (redacted), who

21    frequented your house, would have been aware that Dragan Tomic was a

22    neighbour of yours?

23       A.   Well, yes.  (redacted) knew him.  He went by the same street.

24    He knew that Dragan Tomic was a neighbour of mine.  Mujo knew that.

25       Q.   And Mujo also would have known that you and Dragan Tomic shared

Page 2282

 1    good neighbourly relations?  Would that be correct?

 2       A.   Well, I never said that.  Let me say again.  Let me tell you this,

 3    too:  I was in Dragan Tomic's house for the first time perhaps in 1994 or

 4    1995.  And the first time I went was when his father died, actually.  He

 5    never came to my house.  He was never in my house, he or his brother, and

 6    I went to his house only when his father died.  So we weren't close

 7    friends in any way.

 8            I want to explain that to you.  We weren't friends like friends

 9    are, when you visit each other and so on, that close.

10       Q.   But you've told us that your relationship with Mr. Tomic was close

11    enough that you trusted him with information that could have jeopardised

12    both you and your family, correct?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   So it was more than just an acquaintance.  It was somebody who you

15    trusted with the lives of yourself, your wife, and your children;

16    correct?

17       A.   Well, yes.  That's his duty, because I trust you, too, for

18    example.

19       Q.   Now, would it be fair or would you agree with me that it would not

20    be unreasonable for (redacted) to believe that if Dragan Tomic, as the

21    commander of the police, became aware that you had written a letter or

22    some kind of certificate ensuring the safety of Mujo and the other people,

23    that Dragan Tomic would respect that and would not harm those people?

24    Isn't that reasonable for Mujo to have believed that fact?

25       A.   I don't know.  Had I written a certificate like that, Mujo had

Page 2283

 1    showed it when Milan Lukic came by, and Susnjar, the other man, and if it

 2    had been of any worth and valid, then I'm sure he would have shown it, had

 3    he had anything like that, but let me tell you, for me to issue any kind

 4    of certificate, that would not be any kind of authority for Tomic.  He

 5    would criticise me and he would report me because it's not in my

 6    competence and authority to do so.

 7            How could I give anybody a piece of paper or anybody give anybody

 8    a piece of paper if he didn't have the authority to do so?  All he could

 9    do was punish me for doing that.  What's my paper worth?  Nothing.

10            He is in a position to issue a paper or the army or the competent

11    authorities, some commander, some leader, some chief of some kind,

12    somebody in charge of those people who is officially in charge of

13    accompanying -- what would my paper mean, sir?  My paper means nothing,

14    who am I?

15       Q.   So let me ask you this question:  So is it your testimony, and

16   this is in some ways a hypothetical question like Judge Taya has asked you,

17    if Mujo -- if Dragan Tomic had come to that house and spoken to (redacted)

18  (redacted) had shown him a piece of paper signed by you, saying

19    something to the effect that these people are okay, they should not be

20    harmed, it's your testimony that Dragan Tomic would have come and punished

21    you for having written that on a piece of paper?  Is that your testimony

22    here today?

23       A.   Well, he knows that those people are okay better than me.  It's

24    his duty to follow people and monitor them and to ensure that the police

25    station has a command.  If you gave a bad piece of paper, then you

Page 2284

 1    couldn't do that either.  Now, a piece of paper, if it was something good,

 2    then there wouldn't be any grounds, but I don't know how to explain this

 3    to you or how to express myself.  I don't know how to explain the thing to

 4    you.

 5            MR. GROOME:  I think you have, Mr. Vasiljevic.  No further

 6    questions.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, Mr. Domazet, have you got any questions arising

 8    out of the questions of either of the Judges or Mr. Groome?

 9            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes, Your Honour.

10                          Re-examined by Mr. Domazet:

11       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vasiljevic, you spoke about Drago Gavrilovic

12    as a sort of a commander and sort of a high functionary or president of

13    the SDS.  Were you personally a member of the SDS or any political

14    organisation at that time?

15       A.   Let me tell you exactly.  That I was a member, no, I was not.

16    Now, how do you explain when you vote for someone, when you vote for a

17    party?  Now, that I was a member or attended meetings at any time or any

18    meeting, no, I did not.  That wasn't -- I wasn't --

19       Q.   So you weren't a member of the SDS or any other political party,

20    were you?

21       A.   No, I was not.

22       Q.   I didn't ask you who you voted for.  When it comes to giving back

23    weapons, the question was whether you received a certificate or piece of

24    paper for returning the weapons, and you said no.  Now, my question is:

25    Were you issued a piece of paper when you were issued a weapon?

Page 2285

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Was it customary for anybody handing in weapons or getting weapons

 3    to receive a certificate to that effect?

 4       A.   Well, I think the command takes that into account, the

 5    headquarters, the staff working at the headquarters sees to that, keeps

 6    records of that.

 7       Q.   And if I understand you correctly, asked by the Judge about the

 8    incident at Sase, you said not only did you not point out the house which

 9    was opposite that place as being a Muslim house, but you claim that, in

10    fact, it was a Serb house belonging to a man named Kosoric?

11       A.   Yes, it's the house belonging to Stojan Kosoric.

12       Q.   When we're talking about discharge papers and what it says in the

13    different columns of the discharge sheet, one question was:  Did you

14    personally look to see when you left hospital, did you look at the

15    document and did you pay attention to everything that is written -- was

16    written in that document?  Did you personally look at everything in the

17    document?

18       A.   Well, I read the discharge paper, of course, several times but I

19    didn't have it in my hands for years afterwards.  It was in the archive

20    and until you showed it to me.

21       Q.   When -- there was mention of insurance, some -- and we talked

22    about insurance here today.  There was a question raised about that.  Now,

23    in -- let's be more specific.  Insurance can mean remuneration, you can

24    receive remuneration for being injured, or it can also mean insurance,

25    that is, the costs and expenses of medical treatment is paid by somebody

Page 2286

 1    for the treatment you receive.  Now, my question is:  Did you receive any

 2    remuneration and compensation for being injured and for being in

 3    hospital?  Did you receive compensation of any kind?

 4       A.   No, I received no compensation for being treated in hospital or

 5    anything.  How would I receive compensation?  No, nobody asked me about

 6    that.  And as far as insurance goes, well, the insurance, medical

 7    insurance goes via the TO, Territorial Defence.  Now, I had got medical

 8    insurance from the company I worked for, and I don't know how this is

 9    regulated in wartime via the municipality or how it works.

10       Q.   You, personally, did you pay for the costs of the operation, the

11    hospital costs and treatment?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Did you pay any costs at all?

14       A.   No, no.

15       Q.   And one more question connected to the question about Milan

16    Lukic.  If I understood from your answer, you say that he did not hide

17    during the time he was in militia, he did not hide from the authorities in

18    Visegrad?

19       A.   No, he didn't hide from the authorities.  And in 1996, for

20    example, he never went -- now, when he started to hide when the SFOR

21    forces -- when the presence of the international police were stepped up,

22    perhaps that was in 1988 and 1989 [as interpreted], then he didn't have

23    the cafe any more and he began to hide then and change the places he was

24    in.  He changed his residence and so on, began to hide intensely after

25    that.

Page 2287

 1       Q.   Would you take a look at the transcript and look at the years.  Is

 2    there a mistake there?  It says 1988 and 1989.  When you're talking about

 3    it, what year was it?  What years are you thinking about when he started

 4    to hide, what years did you say?

 5       A.   1998 and 1999, I would change that.  I said 1998 and 1999.

 6       Q.   Did you know whether Milan Lukic was accused, is there a secret

 7    indictment of The Hague Tribunal?  Did you know about that?

 8       A.   I didn't know that he was on an indictment, but I do know that he

 9    was in hiding, that he is in hiding.  The papers wrote about that.  The

10    papers wrote about him.  But I didn't know that there was an indictment

11    against me in The Hague either, and I didn't like to associate with him

12    because I expected him to be arrested.  And even if I had to drink a cup

13    of coffee, I would try to get away as soon as possible.  Yes, I did know.

14    I didn't know -- it wasn't only me who knew.  The whole of Visegrad knew

15    about this.

16            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vasiljevic.

17            Thank you, I have no further questions.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  You may now return to your seat behind your counsel,

19    Mr. Vasiljevic.

20                          [Accused stands down]

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Domazet.

22            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before the Defence --

23    the next Defence witness enters the courtroom, I should like to ask you to

24    try and solve some problems with respect to the arrival of some witnesses

25    and their testimony and the request made by some of them for protective

Page 2288

 1    measures in view of what they experienced in coming here, but I would like

 2    to discuss this in a private session, please.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well.  We'll move into private session.

 4                          [Private session]

 5  [redacted]

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Page 2293

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10  [redacted]

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12  [redacted]

13  [redacted]

14  [redacted]

15                          --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.

16                          --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

17             [Open session]             [The witness entered court]

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, Mr. Domazet, is this one of the witnesses for

19    whom we've made an order for protective measures?

20            MR. DOMAZET:  No, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration in

22    terms of the document that is being handed to you by the court officer.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                       WITNESS:  DRAGISA DIKIC

Page 2294

 1                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Sit down, please, sir.

 3            MR. DOMAZET:  It will be Mr. Tanaskovic.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Tanaskovic.

 5                          Examined by Mr. Tanaskovic:

 6       Q.   Mr. Dikic, good morning.

 7       A.   Good morning.

 8       Q.   I hope you feel better now after the unpleasantness and the

 9    provocations you were exposed to on your journey to The Hague and that

10    you're able to testify today.

11       A.   I am.  Thank you.

12       Q.   Tell us your name, please.

13       A.   Dragisa Dikic.

14       Q.   Tell us when and where you were born.

15       A.   On the 13th of September, 1948, in Loznica near Visegrad.

16       Q.   And where do you reside?

17       A.   I am living now in Vojvode Stepe Street, no number, in Visegrad.

18       Q.   Since when have you been living there?

19       A.   I've been living in that street, or, rather, my parents have been

20    living there for more than 40 years, and I have been there all the time.

21       Q.   Could you please make a pause between my questions, and answers so

22    that the interpreters have time to interpret.  And you can look at the

23    transcript on your monitor, if it's switched on, to be able to follow.

24            Tell me, what is your profession?

25       A.   By profession, I am an auto mechanic and bodyworker.

Page 2295

 1       Q.   Are you married?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Tell me, what is your occupation now?

 4       A.   I am practising the same trade, as a mechanic and a bodyworker.

 5       Q.   Does that mean that you have your privately-owned business?

 6       A.   Yes.  I have had that private business for some 30 years.

 7       Q.   So that means that that was your occupation before the war as

 8    well?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Do you know Mr. Vasiljevic?

11       A.   I do.

12       Q.   Where did you meet him?

13       A.   He's my neighbour, Mr. Vasiljevic is.  He lives about 100 or 150

14    metres away from me.

15       Q.   For how long has the Vasiljevic family been living in your

16    neighbourhood?

17       A.   Let me tell you, sir, I don't know exactly since when the

18    Vasiljevic family has been living there, but roughly as far as I am able

19    to remember, for some 20 years and more.

20       Q.   Did you know Mr. Vasiljevic prior to that 20-year period?  Please

21    wait a moment before giving your answer.

22       A.   I have known Vasiljevic ever since he started working as a

23    waiter.  I am unable to tell you how long that is exactly, but it's been a

24    long time, many years that we've known each other.

25       Q.   When you say that you know him as a waiter, do you know where he

Page 2296

 1    worked as a waiter?

 2       A.   As far as I know, he worked throughout in the catering

 3    establishment called Panos of Visegrad.

 4       Q.   Does that company have several catering establishments?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Do you know in which of those establishments Mr. Vasiljevic

 7    worked?

 8       A.   I think that Vasiljevic worked in all the different

 9    establishments, at least those I am familiar with:  The Visegrad Hotel,

10    the old Panos, the Visegrad Banja Ospar [phoen].  He probably worked at

11    Bikavac well, but I can't remember with precision.

12       Q.   As neighbours, would you see Mr. Vasiljevic frequently and his

13    family?

14       A.   Well, virtually every day, especially more recently because I have

15    a workshop which is on the road itself so that I see everyone as they pass

16    by.

17       Q.   Tell me, where were you during the war?

18       A.   During the war, I was mobilised to the Territorial Defence or

19    as -- by the military.  I was assigned to the workshop for the maintenance

20    of vehicles, and that is where I spent the whole war.

21       Q.   Does that mean that you were deployed there, assigned to that

22    position by the TO or the military?

23       A.   Yes.  I was assigned there.  I got a call-up, and that was my

24    assignment.  Before, it was called the JNA, then it was the TO.

25       Q.   Can you tell us where that workshop was to which you were

Page 2297

 1    assigned?

 2       A.   The workshop was on the bus station, at the bus station slightly

 3    outside town.  It was the workshop owned by the company Centrotrans, and

 4    that is where we worked all the time.

 5       Q.   When you mentioned Centrotrans, what was the area of activity of

 6    that company?

 7       A.   Centrotrans was a company for the transport of passengers, and

 8    they had a department for technical examinations of vehicles, and it was

 9    that department that was used for the maintenance of vehicles where I

10    worked.

11       Q.   In addition to you, were there other mechanics and workers in that

12    workshop?

13       A.   I had three other colleagues of mine working with me and a boss, a

14    superior, and then there were other services like locksmiths and others.

15       Q.   Whose vehicles did you repair?

16       A.   We repaired the vehicles of the Territorial Defence.

17       Q.   Does that mean that this workshop had any kind of special security

18    measures, that everyone could not freely go in as they wished?

19       A.   The workshop had a number of vehicles, I don't know the exact

20    number.  There was a barrier.  There was an office, a guard who would let

21    the vehicles in.  Because all vehicles could not come in, those that were

22    not in the possession of the Territorial Defence or the army.

23       Q.   You said that you were assigned to this workshop.  My next

24    question is:  Did you go home at all?

25       A.   We were accommodated on the upper floor of the same building where

Page 2298

 1    the workshop was, that is where we slept.  But I went home quite often

 2    because I was able to go in a car to visit my family and to come back.

 3       Q.   When you went home, would you see Mr. Vasiljevic then, too?

 4       A.   Yes, I would see him.

 5       Q.   Tell me, please, do you know whether he had any assignment and

 6    what it was, if you know?

 7       A.   I can't tell you who was assigned where, but I would see

 8    Vasiljevic quite frequently in the street with a small group of men

 9    cleaning the town.  That's what I saw.

10       Q.   When you say that you would see Vasiljevic frequently, did you

11    notice that he had a weapon on him?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   When you would see him in the street cleaning, can you remember

14    how he was dressed?

15       A.   I can remember because whenever I saw him in the street, he was

16    wearing civilian clothes.  I remember that well because I always wore my

17    own clothes, so actually I hardly had any clothes at all at the time.

18       Q.   Can you remember, try to remember - I know it's difficult - what

19    colour those civilian clothes were?

20       A.   I just know that he always wore, as he always did for as long as

21    I've known him, dark coloured suits like I wear, not light coloured.  So

22    he wasn't that conspicuous.  I can't remember the colour exactly, but I

23    know they were not light colours, but dark colours.

24       Q.   When you said a moment ago that you would see him cleaning the

25    town, tell me what the town was being cleaned of, and did Vasiljevic do

Page 2299

 1    this alone or with others?

 2       A.   The town was cleaned of various rubbish thrown by people out into

 3    the street, so it was really very dirty.  I would clean, too.  Then there

 4    were shopkeepers who would clean in front of their own shops, and

 5    Vasiljevic would lead this group of five or six men, I think there were,

 6    to clean, and they removed the rubbish.  There were some larger objects,

 7    too.  I don't know.  People were throwing out all kinds of things into the

 8    street.

 9       Q.   In your opinion, was the town clean after the cleaning began to be

10    organised?

11       A.   Yes, it was clean.  It couldn't be absolutely a hundred per cent

12    in order, but if it hadn't been for this cleaning, one couldn't pass, walk

13    along the street properly.  And I drove the car a lot, and I was able to

14    notice it.  And somebody had to do that work.

15       Q.   Tell me, who was working with Vasiljevic on the cleaning job?

16       A.   Doing the cleaning, as far as I noticed, there were men of other

17    ethnic groups.  There were Serbs and Muslims, shopkeepers.  Salesmen would

18    also clean, probably under his kind of orders or requests.  I don't know.

19       Q.   A moment ago, you said that he wore a civilian dark suit or

20    clothes, as you put it.  Tell us, please, when you saw him cleaning the

21    town or organising the cleaning, did you notice him wearing anything on

22    those clothes?  Wait a moment, please.  Don't hurry.

23       A.   Yes, I did.  On his arm, he had a red ribbon, only I can't

24    remember exactly which arm.

25       Q.   On that ribbon, was there any sign or emblem, or was it just a red

Page 2300

 1    ribbon, plain red ribbon?

 2       A.   A red ribbon, an ordinary red ribbon of -- made of some material,

 3    cloth.

 4       Q.   Mr. Dikic, can you tell us, when you would see him involved in the

 5    organisation of the cleaning of the town, what period was that?  What time

 6    period?

 7       A.   I cannot remember exactly the time, but he cleaned the town.  From

 8    the beginning of the war, as far as I remember, he was involved in the

 9    cleaning of the town.  I don't know the exact dates.  I wasn't aware that

10    I would ever need to remember those things.

11       Q.   If you could tell us, was that before the Uzice Corps arrived or

12    after they had left?

13       A.   I can't remember exactly when that cleaning took place.  He didn't

14    just clean the town on one day for me to be able to remember the day.  I

15    just know that I saw him many times cleaning the town.  I think it could

16    have been after the Uzice Corps left and also before they left.

17       Q.   Do you remember when the Uzice Corps arrived or when they left?

18    Do you know that?

19       A.   Again, I can't tell you the exact date, but I think that the corps

20    was there in May.  I don't know exactly.

21       Q.   Did you see Mr. Vasiljevic after that?

22       A.   I did see him, but again I can't give you any exact date.  I saw

23    him on crutches, but again I can't tell you when exactly that was.

24       Q.   When you saw him carrying crutches, where would you see him?

25       A.   Also in passing, because as I was saying, I used the car a lot, so

Page 2301

 1    that as I drove by, I would see him going walking with crutches.

 2       Q.   Did you know or did you learn why he was using crutches?

 3       A.   I did.  As according to what I heard - I didn't see it - he fell

 4    off a horse, and he broke a leg.

 5       Q.   Do you know or do you not know for how long he used those

 6    crutches?

 7       A.   For a couple of months he did, but again, I can't tell you any

 8    exact dates.

 9       Q.   You told us you knew your neighbour Vasiljevic well.  Tell me, did

10    he ever wear a moustache?

11       A.   No.  I don't remember ever seeing him with a moustache.

12       Q.   Do you know whether he had a nickname?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   You said that Mr. Vasiljevic worked as a waiter and also he was

15    your neighbour.  Tell us, please, do you know that Vasiljevic liked to

16    have a drink and that he got drunk quite often?

17       A.   Yes, I know that.  He liked to have a drink.

18       Q.   And where would that usually be?

19       A.   Usually in the -- in the restaurants he was working in, in Panos

20    or in Cadzava, in Mezalin.  In those coffee bars which were not too

21    crowded.

22       Q.   So I can take it that you would see him drunk?

23       A.   Yes.  I would see him under the influence of alcohol, drunk.

24       Q.   Do you know how he behaved when he was under the influence of

25    alcohol?  Was he aggressive or anything like that?

Page 2302

 1       A.   I would see him drunk many times.  He's funny.  He becomes funny.

 2    As far as I know him, he was never aggressive, nor did I ever see him

 3    provoking a quarrel or a conflict.  He wasn't very interesting when he was

 4    drunk.

 5       Q.   Does that mean that in that condition, in your opinion, he would

 6    not cause any excesses?

 7       A.   As far as I know and the many times that I was present, he did

 8    not.

 9       Q.   Tell me, please, did you ever see Mr. Vasiljevic wearing a

10    uniform?  And if you did, what kind of uniform?

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Haven't you already asked him that question?  I

12    thought you asked him that a long time ago, and he said no, he'd never

13    seen him in a uniform.  I don't know whether -- I'm sorry.  I'm reminded

14    it might have been a cleaning uniform.  You're asking now about an army

15    uniform, are you?

16            MR. TANASKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

17       Q.   Can you answer that question, Mr. Dikic, please?

18       A.   I don't remember seeing him wearing a uniform.  And to be a

19    hundred per cent truthful, it's possible that I may have seen him wearing

20    an SMB shirt.  That is an olive-green coloured shirt, the shirt worn by

21    our former army.  Actually, it still exists.  It is the colour of military

22    uniforms.  But as for any other part of the uniform, I really never saw

23    him wearing anything but civilian clothes.

24       Q.   Can you tell us, in your street, your street and Mr. Vasiljevic's

25    street, was there a checkpoint, and if so, when, if you can tell us?

Page 2303

 1       A.   There was a checkpoint.  Actually, between his house and mine, in

 2    fact closer to his house than mine.  It was a military checkpoint manned

 3    by the Uzice Corps, and I think that it existed, and I apologise again if

 4    I give you the wrong date, but when the Uzice Corps arrived at the

 5    beginning, so this may have been April or May, end of April.  I don't know

 6    exactly.  When the Uzice Corps entered, they immediately set up this

 7    checkpoint.

 8       Q.   Before the arrival of the Uzice Corps and after its departure, in

 9    your street was there a checkpoint still?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   When you said that the Uzice Corps had set up the checkpoint, who

12    manned the checkpoint, who was on duty at the checkpoint?

13       A.   Well, the army of the Uzice Corps, the soldiers.

14       Q.   Do you happen to know that at that time some paramilitary groups

15    were in existence?

16       A.   At the beginning of the war, some groups, the paramilitary did

17    appear, that they were called something like that.  But I didn't have much

18    contact, in general terms, with any of those soldiers or anything like

19    that.

20       Q.   Do you know what the groups were called; do you know their names?

21       A.   Well, I don't know.  I remember well that some White Eagles

22    appeared on the scene.  I don't know.  There were some sort of terrible

23    strange names, but I wasn't interested and I don't really remember them.

24            May I just add, I remember the White Eagles because once, when I

25    came by in my car, that a man stopped me and took my particulars and

Page 2304

 1    threatened to lock me up.  He said, "I don't want to see you in the

 2    streets or I'll put you in gaol."  That's how I remember, and that's how I

 3    remembered the name the White Eagles.

 4       Q.   May we then take it that that man was a member of the White

 5    Eagles; is that what you're saying?

 6       A.   Well, I don't know.  He was masked, and my colleagues in the work

 7    shop commented and said that they had heard that they were the White

 8    Eagles.  Probably, hm, well ...

 9       Q.   You said that he was masked.  Can you describe how, what do you

10    mean by that, how was he masked?

11       A.   Well, yes, I can.  His head was painted.  You could just see his

12    teeth and eyes.  I couldn't recognise the face.  I couldn't see the face.

13    Well, quite simply, I was afraid when I saw him looking like that.

14       Q.   Can you tell us whether the members of those White Eagles, as you

15    call them, were from Visegrad, the Uzice Corps or some third group?

16       A.   They were not from Visegrad, that's for sure.  Now, they came

17    around the time that the Uzice Corps turned up.  Where they came from, I

18    don't know, because Visegrad didn't have any army at the time except for

19    the Territorial Defence.

20       Q.   Does that mean that had they been people from Visegrad, you would

21    have recognised them?

22       A.   Well, probably.  I was born in Visegrad, so most probably I would

23    recognise practically anyone either by their speech or by something else,

24    their eyes or the way they opened their mouths, what they said.  That kind

25    of thing.  And I think -- I'm convinced because I know, judging by myself,

Page 2305

 1    that no person from Visegrad would have acted that way, not towards me.

 2       Q.   Did I understand you correctly to say that you concluded that from

 3    their speech because they didn't talk like people from Visegrad, they

 4    didn't talk the same way?

 5       A.   Well, the way they talked and the way they behaved, too.  Their

 6    manner was brusque, violent.

 7       Q.   And the next question:  Did you know Milan Lukic?

 8       A.   I met Milan Lukic sometime, and don't hold me to the date, around

 9    1996, perhaps, 1995 or 1996.

10       Q.   How did you come to meet him?

11       A.   Well, it was like this:  I met Milan because after the war, I

12    started working in the shop, I opened my business again, and -- as that

13    was the only shop that was working after the war.  So a man turned up with

14    a Golf vehicle, a Golf 3, and I remember that very well because in

15    Visegrad, there was not a single Golf type 3 in town.

16            I did some work on the Golf, as I recall.  I put right a part in

17    the front of the vehicle, or the body; I did some bodywork or straightened

18    a part.  There was nothing much wrong with the car, it wasn't a major

19    fault or breakdown, and when I had finished the work, the man who was in

20    the workshop with me asked -- said to me, "Do you know who that man is?"

21    And I said, "No."  And he said, "Well, that's Milan Lukic.  That's him."

22    And after that, he stopped by the workshop one more time, I think, and he

23    also had a minor fault with the car, and that's all.  That's as much as I

24    know him.

25       Q.   You said that that was the first time that you had actually seen

Page 2306

 1    Lukic.  Tell us, please, whether you had ever seen that particular man

 2    with Mr. Vasiljevic ever.

 3       A.   No, I never saw Mr. Vasiljevic, nor did I ever see Lukic in

 4    Visegrad before that.

 5       Q.   Let me now ask you another question about the relationship of kum,

 6    kumship relationship.  You are by ethnicity what?

 7       A.   A Serb.

 8       Q.   A Serb, you say.  Very well.  So I'm sure you know what kum and

 9    kumship relations mean and imply.

10       A.   As far as I know, a kum with us Serbs is something great.  It is

11    something highly respected, a person who is really genuinely respected.

12    And that dates back a long way, to our forefathers, and is passed on from

13    one generation to the next.

14            With us Serbs, the worst thing that can happen is if you suddenly

15    decide to change your kum without any special reason for doing so or if

16    the kum asks for that to be done.  It would be a big sin, sort of.  That's

17    what I know, as far as I know about kumship.

18       Q.   Mr. Dikic, you said that you were a neighbour of Mr. Vasiljevic's,

19    that you see him and his family around.  Can you tell me, please, on the

20    basis of what you have said so far, can you give me your opinion, in fact,

21    what kind of man was Vasiljevic as a man and as a neighbour?  What kind of

22    person was he?

23       A.   Well, this is what I can say, briefly speaking, about Vasiljevic

24    as a neighbour:  He was a really very good neighbour.  I think he was a

25    good parent, too, looking at his children, judging by his children.  I

Page 2307

 1    don't think he neglected his family in any way, and that is something that

 2    you can notice.  You can notice it by the behaviour of the children.  He

 3    liked to help everybody in the neighbourhood.

 4            His only -- the only drawback he has, his only fault, is that he

 5    liked to drink a little too much, drink alcohol too much.  Now, of course

 6    when you're under the effects of alcohol, you can sometimes do something

 7    that is not very good, but as far as I know, as far as I am aware, Mitar

 8    did not make any transgressions vis-a-vis his neighbours, and that they

 9    hold him in high esteem.

10       Q.   You gave a statement previously with respect to that, and as far

11    as I remember, you said that the arrest of Mr. Vasiljevic surprised you.

12    Why?

13       A.   Well, I personally really was surprised, because I could not

14    understand something.  I couldn't understand that a man could be arrested,

15    if you can call it that, and if that is the case, as I see it personally,

16    who is innocent.  He had some troubles and some good points, but that he

17    could have done some things that are ascribed to him, I just can't believe

18    it.  I can't believe it.  And I make this conclusion because I know him

19    well enough.

20            Mitar, as a neighbour, would stop by the workshop, sometimes would

21    chat.  You know, the SFOR people lodged in his house, and he always said

22    very nice things about them.  In fact, he said more nice things about them

23    than I would be able to say about people:  that they were very clean and

24    tidy, that their behaviour was very nice towards him and his family and

25    his children, that he had absolute trust and confidence in them, so much

Page 2308

 1    so that his children would drive around in their jeeps.  He sent his

 2    children to a course, to attend a course.  And I talked to Nidzo.  He

 3    attended a French language course, as far as I remember, at the beginning

 4    with them.  And that's why I was so surprised, to tell you the truth, to

 5    be quite honest.

 6       Q.   When you said his "Nidzo," who is Nidzo?  Could you tell us,

 7    please?

 8       A.   Nidzo is his son.

 9       Q.   Mr. Dikic, in view of the fact of what you have just said and as

10    Visegrad isn't a big place anyway, big town, people know each other, would

11    you have noticed Mr. Vasiljevic had he been a member of, as you said a

12    moment ago, the group called the White Eagles or some other group?  Let's

13    say paramilitary.  Would you have noticed that?  Would you see it or hear

14    about it?

15       A.   Not only would I see it and hear about it, but it's something that

16    I just don't know how to describe to you.  There was so much fear when

17    these masked people came up to you and frightened you.  And Mitar could

18    never do that, could never act the part.  Never, as far as I know him.

19    It's difficult to describe the terror they instilled in us if you hadn't

20    experienced it yourself, and I can guarantee that, that it was not him.

21    He was not one of them.  He could not have been.  He could not have acted

22    the part out, if I can put it that way, because the people that did those

23    things at that time, they came from somewhere else and they were trained

24    that way.  An ordinary person couldn't do that, somebody who had never

25    been in that chaotic -- in those chaotic events and everything.  Somebody

Page 2309

 1    must have been in a war somewhere to be able to behave like that.

 2       Q.   Does that mean that in view of Mr. Vasiljevic's profession, a

 3    waiter, and the small town that Visegrad was, where everything is heard

 4    about, seen, and learnt of, that couldn't have --

 5       A.   Of course.  Yes.  It takes very little time for news to travel

 6    through town.  It whizzes past, and you can go right round the town in two

 7    or three minutes.  It wouldn't take you more to walk round the town, to go

 8    round the town.

 9       Q.   And finally, let me ask you, did you ever hear of that or

10    something similar, or did it pass through town, any rumours of that kind

11    about Mitar Vasiljevic, anything connected to him of that nature?

12       A.   I'm not clear on the question.

13       Q.   It was something like that.  That is to say, the events that you

14    have -- you said that anything like that would have been heard about in

15    town.  Did you ever hear of rumours of those kind going round town

16    connected to Mitar Vasiljevic?

17       A.   No.  No.

18            MR. TANASKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

19    questions.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Ossogo, yes.

21            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  My name is

22    Mr. Ossogo, for the interpreters.

23                          Cross-examined by Mr. Ossogo:

24       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dragisa Dikic, I'm going to ask you a few

25    questions with regard to what you have been just telling us about your

Page 2310

 1    relationships with Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic and about some points in his

 2    professional life and private life.

 3            Let us go back to what you said about how you knew Mr. Mitar.  You

 4    gave us a number of details, and you said that you lived 150 metres from

 5    his house and that your parents lived in the house for 40 years, over 40

 6    years.  Could you tell us how long you lived with your parents?

 7       A.   I lived in my family house until I got married, and that was 23

 8    years ago, but I would come daily because my shop was connected to my

 9    family house, my parents' house, that is to say, it was situated in the

10    lower part of my parents' house, that's where I had my workshop, so that I

11    would come there every day.  It was all connected to my parents' house.

12    And afterwards, I built my own house, but that house, too, was linked to

13    my parents' house, adjoining my parents' house.

14       Q.   Do you want to say that the house you built was adjoining to your

15    parents' house, not far away?

16       A.   Right up next to the house, that is to say, it was four metres

17    away from my parents' house, right beside it.  There was just a gap of

18    four metres between my parents' house and the house I built.

19       Q.   That means that your new house was not far from Mr. Mitar's house

20    either.  It was all the same neighbourhood.

21       A.   Well, yes, it's the same distance.  The difference, if you were to

22    measure it in metres, was five or six metres from my house and my parents'

23    house if you were to look at the distance from the actual entrance door of

24    the house or the threshold, if you were to measure it.

25       Q.   You said that you often saw Mr. Mitar passing by, but you also

Page 2311

 1    said that you visited each other.  Did you visit each other frequently as

 2    neighbours?  Did you pay neighbourly visits often?

 3       A.   No.  I don't think I said that our families saw each other, but

 4    that I saw Mitar because my workshop faces the road which passes by

 5    Mitar's house into town, and the door of my workshop is seven metres away

 6    from the road.  Those are the urban regulations.  So that I would see

 7    Mitar almost every day and his family members passing by and, of course, I

 8    didn't talk to them every single day, we would just say hello, sometimes

 9    we'd have a chat.  That kind of thing.

10       Q.   So we couldn't qualify your relationships as intimate, they were

11    just good neighbourly relations?

12       A.   Yes, precisely.

13       Q.   You would -- you qualified him as a good husband and as a good

14    father of his -- without having close relations with him, without being

15    intimate with, you have described him as a good father and a good husband?

16       A.   That was my conclusion, and I stand by that.  My conclusion was

17    based on the behaviour of his child who would come to the workshop daily,

18    every day.  And you all know that all children, small children, are

19    interested in cars, and tools, and keys, and screwdrivers, and things like

20    that.  So I would let children repair their bicycles, and it is for that

21    reason that I made the conclusion that he was a good father because the

22    child was always clean and well-dressed.  He wasn't a neglected child.  So

23    I personally came to the conclusion that he was a good father to his

24    children.

25            I wasn't that close to him.  I wasn't such an intimate friend with

Page 2312












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 2313

 1    him, but I was a good neighbour of his, and this is my personal

 2    conclusion.

 3       Q.   You were assigned to this workshop, as you told us.  Do you know

 4    where Mitar was assigned to even though you don't have intimate relations

 5    with him; you have information about his professional life?

 6       A.   I didn't have information, nor did I look for any such

 7    information.  I know that Mitar was working because I went to these coffee

 8    bars and would see Mitar working as a waiter, serving there.  He served

 9    me, too, and others.  And that was how I came to the conclusion that he

10    was an employee of Panos.  And I can't be wrong when I'm saying that he

11    worked in Panos at the hotel or in the Banja or in Bikavac when it is all

12    one and the same company.  There were no other companies.  This was a

13    state-owned company with all these establishments.

14       Q.   I was asking you whether you have any information about Mitar's

15    mobilisation, where he was deployed, as you were deployed to this

16    workshop.

17       A.   I don't know, and I'd rather not talk about that because I really

18    don't know who assigned him to the job I saw him doing, that is cleaning

19    and keeping the town in order.  I know that I was called up and assigned

20    to the workshop.  I don't know about him precisely.  All I can say is what

21    I saw in passing.

22            Now, who mobilised him and whether he was mobilised is something I

23    don't know.

24       Q.   You said that you would often go home.  What did you mean, after

25    working hours or during working hours?

Page 2314

 1       A.   After work and also during working hours.  You see, our work

 2    didn't have fixed working hours.  Our job was to be on duty all the time,

 3    and I would go home because I had elderly parents and I went to check on

 4    them.  I had a sick father who died during the war from his illness.  So I

 5    would just run home for a moment to see how they were and come back

 6    again.

 7       Q.   You are giving us two reasons now why you couldn't know what the

 8    professional position was of Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic.  I should like to read

 9    from your statement you gave last year and what you told us regarding this

10    point in the English version.  [In English] "I don't know where and if

11    Mitar were assigned during the war because I worked day and night in the

12    workshop where I was assigned.  Therefore, I seldom went home, and I

13    consequently seldom saw him."

14            [Interpretation] Is what you stated correct, which is rather

15    strange for somebody who has a minimum relationship with his neighbour?

16       A.   I don't think that's strange at all.  I think there's no

17    difference there.  I don't know to what extent you think this is different

18    from what I said.  I think that statement is almost -- not almost, it is

19    identical to what I said.  I said that I would see Mitar cleaning the town

20    as I passed by.  That doesn't mean to say that I saw him every day, but I

21    can't tell you exactly how often I rushed off home.

22       Q.   No, it is the difference in the reasons you are giving, and that

23    you had the possibility of going home quite often, as you said in your

24    examination-in-chief a moment ago.

25            I'm just coming to this point of the cleaning of the streets.  The

Page 2315

 1    population, did it have a positive or negative attitude towards the work

 2    done by Mr. Vasiljevic?  And before he undertook the cleaning of the town,

 3    were there others doing the same work?

 4       A.   At the time, no, at least I didn't notice others.

 5       Q.   I didn't quite understand your answer.  You haven't answered my

 6    question.

 7       A.   When I saw Mitar and this group of people cleaning the streets, I

 8    didn't see other organisations doing the cleaning.  I don't know.

 9    Nowadays, we have a public utility company and people wearing particular

10    clothes doing cleaning work.  In those days, I didn't see any such people

11    doing the cleaning work.

12       Q.   Mr. Dragisa, you spoke of what you knew about the existence of a

13    paramilitary unit at the beginning of the war which operated in the

14    environs of your place of residence and work.  You also told us that there

15    were some units with a name, without telling their name, but most

16    frequently used name was the White Eagles; is that right?

17       A.   I can't remember the other names.

18       Q.   You told us that the other names could be obscenities and that

19    you'd rather not mention them.

20       A.   I would tell you if I could remember.  There's no reason for me to

21    avoid telling you.

22       Q.   When you said "obscene" in addition to "White Eagles," you said

23    the other groups had obscene names.  What did you mean?

24       A.   Well, you see, when the Uzice Corps entered, in those days, at

25    that time, I think that these paramilitaries appeared.  The White Eagles,

Page 2316

 1    I noticed them because I personally experienced unpleasantness.  All these

 2    other names I just heard working in the shop, but it really didn't

 3    interest me.  So that is probably why I don't remember those names.  I

 4    just didn't register them.

 5       Q.   Do you know who could have been the leaders of the group whose

 6    name you know, that is, the White Eagles?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Mr. Dragisa, this garage, was it a small garage, a big garage?

 9    Was it visited by many people?

10       A.   Are you referring to the garage that I was assigned to by the

11    military or after the war?

12       Q.   After the war.

13       A.   After the war.  After the war, it's a smaller workshop of 160

14    square metres in area in which I carry out painting of cars, minor

15    repairs, general repairs.  There are usually two or three people working

16    there.  I -- just now I have some apprentices who are learning the trade

17    to become mechanics.

18       Q.   It is in this garage that you saw Milan Lukic for the first time

19    and that you said that you hadn't known him from before?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   You spoke of this kumship relationship.  Do you know that

22    Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic was -- had a kumship relationship with Mr. Milan

23    Lukic?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Have you heard any mention before these proceedings of any

Page 2317

 1    relationship or criminal association between Milan Lukic and Mitar

 2    Vasiljevic?

 3       A.   No, I have not.  I never heard anything like that.

 4       Q.   You yourself, were you ever mentioned having some criminal

 5    association during the war and after that?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Have you ever heard talk of Mr. Mitar Knezevic?

 8       A.   I personally met Mitar Knezevic.  Not actually personally, I never

 9    needed him, but I do know, again from restaurants, from coffee shops that

10    I go to often.

11       Q.   Did you have any closer contact with him ever?

12       A.   Never, if that means anything.  That I may have been sitting at

13    the table next to his, if that means anything.

14       Q.   And apart from sitting at the next table, you never socialised

15    with him?  You never even drank with him?

16       A.   I was never a drinking man, nor did I socialise with him.  That

17    was not my circle of friends at all.

18       Q.   Mr. Dragisa, did you know Mr. Banovic?

19            THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry.  "Oliver Krsmanovic."  The interpreter

20    apologises, didn't get the name.

21       A.   I do know Oliver Krsmanovic.

22            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   I didn't get the answer.

24       A.   Yes, I do know him.

25       Q.   How do you know him?

Page 2318

 1       A.   It is such a small town that I know the people living in town, in

 2    the downtown area, and I know many of those people through my own

 3    workshop, my garage.

 4       Q.   Was he involved in the paramilitary groups that you mentioned a

 5    moment ago?

 6       A.   I don't know that.

 7       Q.   Do you know Mr. Novica?

 8       A.   Novica, I don't know.

 9       Q.   These mentioned persons emerged from certain investigations that

10    we have made, and your name appears involved in the activities, criminal

11    activities, that were engaged in in your area.  What do you say to that?

12       A.   Believe me, I am not aware of these things.  I really don't know

13    to say to you.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Ossogo, it may be that the question wasn't

15    properly recorded, but it's recorded as saying:  "These mentioned

16    persons," those are the people you've been asking him of, "emerged from

17    certain investigations that we have made, and your name," that is the

18    witness's name, "appears involved in the criminal activities that were

19    engaged in in your area."

20            Is that what you asked?

21            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] That is correct, Mr. President.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  How can he possibly answer that?  If you want to put

23    something to him about his criminal activities, put it to him, put it to

24    him directly.  You can't just ask somebody in a general sense like that

25    about somebody else has made allegations against him.  Put the particular

Page 2319

 1    criminal activities to him if you have any.  But I can understand the

 2    witness's problem.

 3            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4       Q.   Mr. Dragisa Dikic, were you involved in one way or another in

 5    criminal activities specifically in the area in which you lived and worked

 6    in association with the persons whose names I mentioned?

 7       A.   I was never on any grounds whatsoever ever under criminal

 8    investigation or called to court.  I have never had any problems in my

 9    life.

10            As for involvement with some people which are under suspicion,

11    that is out of the question.  I can guarantee that.  I stand by that.  I

12    have nothing to do with those people.

13       Q.   Mr. Dragisa Dikic, let us come back to these facts and the

14    clothing of Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic, which you gave us some indication of a

15    moment ago.  You told us that he wore a red ribbon around his arm when he

16    was cleaning the streets; is that right?

17       A.   Yes.  Yes, that is correct.

18       Q.   Was it on his hand or on his shoulder, this ribbon?

19       A.   Around his arm.

20       Q.   And this ribbon had no particular signs on it?

21       A.   I'm quite sure of that.  It was an ordinary ribbon that I noticed

22    because it was red.  On his arm like this, this part of the arm, an

23    ordinary ribbon.  Probably a piece torn off or a piece of cloth, red

24    cloth.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Ossogo, I couldn't see where the witness was

Page 2320

 1    pointing to, could you?  When he said it was on his arm, the screen in

 2    front of him had hid the movement from me, anyway.  We should record where

 3    it was he pointed to.

 4            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

 5       Q.   Mr. Dragisa, would you please show us exactly where you saw this

 6    red ribbon?

 7       A.   A red ribbon here, this part of the arm.  I just don't know which

 8    arm it was, but this part of the arm.  That was where the ribbon was.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  The witness is pointing to just above the shoulder --

10    I'm sorry, the elbow, the elbow.

11            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   You heard the remark of the President.  You were saying round the

13    arm or a part of the arm; is that what you meant, round the arm or on a

14    part of the arm?

15       A.   I don't know what you mean "half the arm."  I saw the ribbon

16    around his arm.  It may have been like this wide, a red ribbon like this.

17       Q.   How wide was it, could you tell us?  Could you be more precise

18    about the width?

19       A.   Well, five or six, maybe ten centimetres.  Like this, like this,

20    an ordinary red ribbon.  I can't tell you exactly.

21       Q.   Five or ten centimetres.  So it wasn't around his arm?

22       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Around his arm, yes.

23       Q.   Around the arm or --

24            JUDGE HUNT:  He's saying the material is that wide, and he

25    identified what I would have thought was closer to five than ten

Page 2321

 1    centimetres, but that's how wide the material is, not how long it is.

 2            Now, could we get on to something which is a little bit more

 3    relevant to this case?  We've got the ribbon, we've got the ribbon around

 4    his arm.  He doesn't know which arm it was.  It was just above the elbow.

 5    It was about five centimetres wide, it could have been red material, any

 6    piece of red material.

 7            Now, I don't think you can really pursue this one any further,

 8    Mr. Ossogo.  Let's get on with it.

 9            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  I didn't quite

10    understand whether he was speaking of the width or the thickness of the

11    material, but now I understand.

12       Q.   Were other members of this group wearing this ribbon, this group

13    of five or six people?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   So he was the only one wearing this ribbon?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Did he, by any chance, give you -- tell you the reasons why he was

18    wearing it?

19       A.   He didn't tell me.  I never stopped to talk to him and ask him why

20    he was wearing this ribbon.  Most probably, he was wearing the ribbon

21    because he was some kind of leader or boss or chief of something there,

22    that's why he probably wore it.

23       Q.   Regarding Mr. Mitar's affiliation with the paramilitary group, you

24    were categorical saying that he never belonged to any one of these groups;

25    is that correct?

Page 2322

 1       A.   As far as I know, and as far as my opinion is concerned, as far as

 2    I know, I don't have to know everything, but as far as I know, I do not

 3    know that he was a member of any of those groups.

 4       Q.   What did you mean when you said you don't have to know

 5    everything?  Do you mean that you don't have all the information?

 6       A.   It's not that I don't have all the information.  I'm not

 7    interested in everything.  I have my own problems and I can't think about

 8    everything and everybody.

 9       Q.   You said that the behaviour of the members of the paramilitary

10    groups that were operating in your region could not be done by somebody

11    who was born in Visegrad, who came from Visegrad, they couldn't behave in

12    the same way; is that right?

13       A.   Judging by their behaviour, as far as I am familiar with the

14    people of Visegrad, those I know, I think they couldn't have acted in that

15    way.

16       Q.   Are you trying to tell us that there was no violence in Visegrad

17    at this time during the war?

18       A.   I am not trying to say anything.  I am just saying -- telling you

19    what I know and what I saw, and if I didn't see something, I can't tell

20    you about it.

21       Q.   But there were killings in Visegrad, after all?

22       A.   I am not claiming anything.  I really didn't see it.  I had such a

23    work assignment that I was a little to the side.  I told you where this

24    workshop was so I wasn't au courant.  I didn't have any need to walk

25    around.  I was doing the work I was assigned to do.

Page 2323

 1            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is 1.00, I think.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  We will resume at 2.30.

 3                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.























Page 2324

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Ossogo.

 3            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4       Q.   Mr. Dragisa Dikic, I'd like now to go back to some points that we

 5    touched upon this morning.  On the road your house was located on, there

 6    were no house numbers; is that right?  There were no house numbers for the

 7    houses on your road?

 8       A.   The street and the actual name plate of the street, which is now

 9    called Vojvoda Stepe Street, the actual plaque is on my house, and my

10    house is BB, which means "bez broja," which means no number.

11       Q.   Do the other houses have numbers to identify their address on that

12    same street?

13       A.   Yes.  Yes, they do.

14       Q.   Thank you.  You told us that you worked in a workshop to repair

15    vehicles and the buses, the Centrotrans buses.  Now, do you know whether

16    those buses transported Muslims in a selective way to other places, to

17    Gradacac or somewhere like that?

18       A.   I don't know.  It's not private.  It's a company, a state-owned

19    company or socially owned, as we called it, and I think it still is.  But

20    the workshop is separate.  It has a fence separating it from the bus-stop,

21    so that I don't know.  And if I need to clarify, between the workshop and

22    bus-stop, there is a ramp which that sort of keeper or watchman was there

23    who would let the vehicles pass, if that means anything to you.

24       Q.   Yes.  But outside your workshop, you weren't able to get that kind

25    of information as a well-known garagist or a garagist of a well-known

Page 2325

 1    workshop?  This was common knowledge that there were transports of this

 2    kind in Visegrad.

 3       A.   I really don't know.  It's not something I know.

 4       Q.   What about generally speaking?  Did you not know that you had

 5    Muslim neighbours or that there were Muslims in Visegrad?

 6       A.   I know there were Muslims in Visegrad.

 7       Q.   Do you know whether they were the object of discrimination or

 8    violent acts of any kind on the part of the non-Muslims?

 9       A.   I don't know what -- in what sense you mean.  As I myself am

10    concerned, nothing.  Now, I don't know what -- I don't know how to answer

11    that.  I don't actually understand your question fully.

12       Q.   My question was very clear.  You lived in a town, a city, a

13    municipality.  And we're not interested in --

14            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, we didn't understand that bit.

15            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   But you know there were ethnic clashes.  Now, I'm interested to

17    know whether, in general terms, you know that the Muslim population from

18    Visegrad was the object of violence, that is, that violence was committed

19    by the non-Muslim population against them and especially the Serbs.

20       A.   No, I don't know that.

21       Q.   So you didn't know that there were inter-ethnic conflicts in the

22    Visegrad municipality?

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Ossogo, as I understand it, there's no real issue

24    about this case.  Do we have to really take him through it when he keeps

25    on saying he doesn't know about it?  There's no real issue about it.

Page 2326

 1    There's been no dispute with any of the witnesses who have given evidence

 2    about it.

 3            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  We've had --

 4    have a witness who took the declaration, and a garagist of that repute who

 5    said that he wasn't au courant with the conflicts.  Now, whether this is

 6    because of arrogance or because he -- which leads us to doubt other points

 7    of his testimony which are relevant in that case, or whether we are

 8    amusing ourselves.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  [Previous translation continues]... Now, please let's

10    move on to the matters which are at issue in the case.

11            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   Mr. Dragisa, did you hear mention about a vehicle, a red Passat,

13    rouge, a Volkswagen belonging to a lady called Behija Zukic?

14       A.   I don't know that.

15       Q.   Did you hear mention about the murder of that lady?  Did you hear

16    about that?

17            THE INTERPRETER:  The witness gave no audible answer.  The

18    interpreters could not hear.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Sir, could you repeat your answer, please?  The

20    interpreters could not hear you.  Did you hear about the murder of the

21    lady who owned the red Volkswagen?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.

23            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   You said, Mr. Dragisa Dikic, that you had heard people saying that

25    Mr. Mitar had fallen off a horse and that he fractured -- had a fracture

Page 2327

 1    as a result.  Is that right?

 2       A.   I heard that he fell off a horse and broke his leg.  Actually, I

 3    saw him with crutches.

 4       Q.   Who did you hear that from, who told you that?

 5       A.   Well, people talked about it in the workshop, people talked about

 6    it.  I didn't see it happen, but I heard that he had fallen off a horse

 7    and they said -- talked about it that particular day.  Now, I can't

 8    remember what that day was.  I don't know the exact date.

 9       Q.   When you say "that day," what day do you mean?

10       A.   Well, I don't remember the day.  I don't remember the day.

11       Q.   Do you remember the month?

12       A.   I don't remember the month, but I know it was just about the time

13    when the Uzice Corps withdrew.

14       Q.   Before or after the departure of the Uzice Corps?

15       A.   After the withdrawal of the Uzice Corps.

16       Q.   Where did you meet Mr. Mitar with crutches?  Did he give you the

17    reasons for this?

18       A.   I didn't even ask him.

19       Q.   You didn't discuss that point?

20       A.   No, I didn't talk about that at all.

21       Q.   But he was your neighbour, you had very good relations.

22       A.   Yes, but I was working in the workshop.  I didn't have much

23    contact with my neighbours at that time.

24       Q.   In the workshop where you learnt the news, you didn't -- they

25    weren't discussing the circumstances of this falling off the horse?

Page 2328

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   You said that he carried the crutches.

 3       A.   He had crutches, yes.  I would see him with crutches when I met

 4    him in the street.  Now, if you're thinking about the rumour going around

 5    the workshop as to how Mitar had fallen off the horse, the story was that

 6    the horse had taken fright when he saw his reflection in a shop window and

 7    that he did a jerky movement and Mitar fell off, if you're interested.

 8    That was the story bandied around town, that the horse had taken fright.

 9       Q.   So that was the version of the facts that were talked about in the

10    workshop, that the horse saw its own reflection in a shop window and

11    jerked and the rider fell?

12       A.   Well, knowing the town, as it happened in front of a department

13    store, there's a shop window, not a mirror.  It was a shop window, not a

14    mirror.  It's an ordinary shop window, glass.

15       Q.   You said this morning that he was wearing crutches for several

16    months.  Do you happen to know how many months he used the crutches for?

17       A.   I couldn't say.

18       Q.   Was he absent for a time, after that fall from the horse, from his

19    domicile?

20       A.   Well, he was.  I didn't see him during that time, and I heard

21    people say that he was lying in bed in hospital in Uzice.

22       Q.   Who told you that?

23       A.   Well, people, townsfolk, the people in town.  And they would pass

24    through the workshop and I would hear about things like that.  That's what

25    I know.

Page 2329

 1       Q.   So no member of his family told you anything, not his wife and not

 2    his children that you knew.

 3       A.   I did not even ask them, nor did they volunteer any information.

 4       Q.   Well, it seems improbable that you live in the conditions you live

 5    in and that your neighbour has such a serious accident and that nobody

 6    told you anything, and yet you say you had good neighbourly relations.

 7       A.   Well, as far as I know, I said what I knew.  As far as I know, I

 8    told you what I knew.  Well, I couldn't contact with my neighbours much.

 9    I would just see my neighbours in passing because I worked around the

10    clock day and night in my workshop.

11       Q.   Mr. Dragisa Dikic, do you know why Mr. Mitar is here?

12       A.   I know that he stands accused.  As far as I was able to hear from

13    the media, that's what I know.

14       Q.   You asserted, however, that you don't think he was capable of

15    committing any crimes.  That's what you said this morning; that's right,

16    isn't it?  Now, what crimes were you talking about?

17       A.   Well, I don't know.  Over the media in our country, I heard that

18    Mitar had been accused of some killings, and that's what I was thinking of

19    when I said ...

20       Q.   Mr. Dragisa Dikic, if you're showing such great indifference with

21    respect to a neighbour and his family that find themselves isolated from

22    their breadwinner, I don't know how you can state and put your hand in the

23    fire for something like that and say that your neighbour is innocent, a

24    neighbour with whom you don't seem to have any relationships when he was

25    undergoing a hardship.

Page 2330

 1            We mentioned here several facts which refer to the situation in

 2    Visegrad, but you say you know nothing about the killings or nothing about

 3    the crimes that took place and that you know nothing about conflicts

 4    between the Serbs and the Muslims, and from morning to evening, you say

 5    all you did was work in the workshop.  And sometimes you -- and you also

 6    said that you would go outside the workshop and go home, but that you

 7    don't know whether Mr. Mitar was assigned a work assignment of any kind or

 8    who was there.

 9            You claim that you had regular relations with his family and

10    children but that you didn't talk to Mr. Mitar about his injury and his

11    fall from the horse.  However, you, nonetheless, say that he was a good

12    father, a good husband, so we're asking -- I'm asking myself whether you

13    are mocking us here.

14            Thank you, Mr. President.

15       A.   I'd like to tell the gentleman that everything I said here and all

16    I said about Mitar, what kind of man he was, that's what I think.  I think

17    he was like that right until the beginning of the war.  I didn't speak

18    about Mitar only during the war.

19            Since I have known him, until the war broke out, that's my

20    assessment of him.  That's what I said when I said that he was the kind of

21    man I think he is.  And I stand by what I said, and I'm not ashamed to say

22    it.  I'm not ashamed to say what I said here.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Ossogo, it is not the usual practice of counsel

24    to be permitted to make comments such as that very long comment of yours

25    when you sat down.

Page 2331

 1            If you want to ask questions, you ask questions.  Later on during

 2    the course of the final addresses, you may make comments, but that was no

 3    more than a comment upon his evidence, and I hope you won't do it again.

 4            Yes, Mr. Tanaskovic, any re-examination?

 5            MR. TANASKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when Mr. Ossogo read

 6    out a part of the prior statement of this witness, that is, Dragisa Dikic,

 7    he read out only a part of that statement.  So I would like to read the

 8    continuation of that statement which Mr. Ossogo failed to read out.

 9            So Mr. Ossogo read out quite correctly what Mr. Dikic said, but

10    then he goes on to say:

11            "What I know and what I saw is Mitar organised the cleaning of

12    the town and the streets from rubbish and waste" --

13            I apologise.  I repeat:

14            "What I know and what I saw is that Mitar organised the cleaning

15    of the town and the streets of rubbish, all kinds of waste, so that some

16    citizens praised him, because if it hadn't been for him, one could hardly

17    walk along the streets of the town because of so much rubbish."

18            That was the rest of the statement made by Mr. Dikic on the 21st

19    of August, 2000.

20            Mr. Ossogo has this statement, so I think he will agree with me

21    that I have read it out correctly, I hope.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Is that right, Mr. Ossogo?

23            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] It is right, Mr. President.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  Now, do you have any questions to ask,

25    Mr. Tanaskovic?

Page 2332












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13   English transcripts.













Page 2333

 1            MR. TANASKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do.  I have another question

 2    for Mr. Dikic, when he mentioned Mitar Knezevic.

 3                          Re-examined by Mr. Tanaskovic:

 4       Q.   Does he know that Mitar Knezevic had a nickname and what that

 5    nickname was?

 6       A.   He did have a nickname.  They called him "Mitar the Chetnik."

 7       Q.   Mr. Dikic, you explained -- when you met or saw Mitar Knezevic,

 8    did you notice that he had any shortcomings?

 9       A.   In fact, that is how I remember Mitar the Chetnik.  He had an

10    unusual appearance.  He had an eye missing, so that he looked rather

11    dreadful when you look at him.  And that is how I remember him from the

12    coffee bars.  I had no other reason to remember him, and I had no other

13    contact with the man.

14       Q.   When you had occasion to see Knezevic, was he perhaps wearing a

15    hat?

16       A.   I don't remember.

17            MR. TANASKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

18    questions.

19                          Questioned by the Court:

20            JUDGE JANU:  Mr. Dikic, you gave us a very nice definition of --

21            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

22            JUDGE JANU:  Mr. Dikic, you gave us a very precise and very

23    expressive definition of kumship.  You said:

24            "A kum is something highly respected that dates back a long way.

25    It passes from one generation to the next.  For us Serbs, the worst thing

Page 2334

 1    that could happen is that one would change the kum without special reason

 2    or if the kum asks for that.  It would be a big sin."

 3            Is that correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5            JUDGE JANU:  Please, can you explain to the Court in your point of

 6    view, in your vision, in your opinion, what would be that special reason

 7    why or under which the kum could ask to be released from his

 8    responsibilities?

 9       A.   Well, Your Honours, I don't know that much about these things.

10    It's as much that I have learnt from my elders.

11            A kum may request the disruption of his kumship if he's ill and he

12    can't come and there's no one to take his place, to inherit his position.

13    So he may come, apologise and explain he can no longer continue to be kum

14    for such-and-such a reason, and only then can this kumship be transferred

15    to someone else.  Or he might propose someone, a member of his family, to

16    replace him.

17            So briefly put, it's possible, and the main reason being reasons

18    of health and if he has no successors.

19            JUDGE JANU:  But what about the behaviour of one party in this

20    relationship?  I give you an abstract example.  What's your opinion about

21    this situation:  The one person in this relationship would see that the

22    second party -- would see that the second party committed a crime, and

23    afterwards, that party who committed the crime would ask him for his

24    kumship duties.  For example, to be his best man at his wedding.  What

25    would you do in this situation?

Page 2335

 1       A.   Believe me, I can't give you an answer.  It's very difficult for

 2    me to answer directly unless I know the reasons, really.  It's very

 3    difficult for me to answer that question.

 4            Could you be kind enough to --

 5            JUDGE JANU:  I gave you the example.  You would see that the

 6    person you are in this kumship, in this type of relationship, was

 7    committing the crime, very serious crime in front of your eyes, and after

 8    that, that person would ask you to fulfil your kumship duties.  Is this a

 9    special reason why to ask to be released from these duties?

10            That's my question, and I want just your personal opinion, how you

11    would behave in such a situation.

12       A.   Believe me, I don't know.  Kumship is not something regulated by

13    the courts.  These are human relationships.  So I really don't know how I

14    would feel.  I don't know.  I don't know what I would do.

15            JUDGE JANU:  Thank you.  I have another question.  Did you know

16    Stanko or Stanimir Pecikoza?

17       A.   I did.

18            JUDGE JANU:  Do you know how he died or did you hear about it?

19    You said you were in the workshop.  People are talking, coming to you.

20    Did you hear something?

21       A.   I know that he was killed.  He didn't die.  He was killed.  They

22    found him in the car.  That's as much as I know.  How this happened, for

23    him to be found in the car -- I know where this was, because afterwards I

24    would pass by those places.  But I don't have the actual information as to

25    how this happened.

Page 2336

 1            All I know is that I'm on quite good terms with that family.  I

 2    never discussed subject with them, but I heard that he was found in a car

 3    in a river.  Now, how that happened, I don't know.

 4            JUDGE JANU:  But you know them because you said you were born in

 5    Visegrad and you grow up there and you live there so what is --

 6       A.   Yes, I do know them.

 7            JUDGE JANU:  [Previous translation continues]... so what can you

 8    tell us about that family, you gave us the picture about Mr. Vasiljevic

 9    family.

10       A.   It is a family that is well-known in Visegrad, especially as well

11    Stanko was alive, they had quite a large workshop, working well.  His son

12    has inherited it.  It's a fine family.  What his death was, I would make a

13    mistake if I were to say anything at all because I don't know.  He didn't

14    die, he was killed.  How he was killed, I don't know.

15            JUDGE JANU:  Do you know his position in some political party or

16    was he a member or leading personality in any political party; do you have

17    this knowledge?

18       A.   I really don't know that.  I just know him as a good and diligent

19    worker.

20            JUDGE JANU:  Were you a member of the political party before

21    multi-party election or after multi-party election?

22       A.   No.

23            JUDGE JANU:  Mr. Vasiljevic gave us the evidence that the Serbian

24    Democratic Party was gradually since March 1992 distributed weapons,

25    rifles, and that everybody received the gun.  Did you also receive one?

Page 2337

 1       A.   No.

 2            JUDGE JANU:  And when you were called as a reservist, were you

 3    issued the weapon as a member of TO?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5            JUDGE JANU:  Did you, as a reservist who was assigned to the job

 6    you have been doing, have you to wear some sort of ribbon as well as

 7    Mr. Vasiljevic, maybe different colour?

 8       A.   No, I didn't have any kind of ribbon, nor did I have to wear one.

 9    We just had working clothes for the workshop.

10            JUDGE JANU:  Do you know about any rule, do you know about any

11    rule which assigned that different reservists will wear different ribbon

12    or different signs of this sort?

13       A.   I really don't know.  I know some of the superiors had ranks and

14    wore the appropriate insignias, but nothing else.

15            JUDGE JANU:  Was it written on the sleeve or was it something

16    else?  I believe -- I don't have very deep military knowledge but ...

17       A.   In our army, there were insignia, but in the former Yugoslavia,

18    they wore insignia in the form of stars and stripes.  To tell you the

19    truth now in this new army, I don't know what they wear.  I have no

20    contact with them, so I don't know what their insignia are like.

21            JUDGE JANU:  So what is your explanation about that ribbon which

22    Mr. Vasiljevic was wearing?  Can you have some official explanation or

23    just you think it was his private decision to wear it or ...

24       A.   This ribbon on the arm, these are ribbons of people on duty, these

25    are not ranks.  This just indicated that somebody was on duty.  Orderlies

Page 2338

 1    usually wear them.

 2            JUDGE JANU:  Is it usual or was it usual in the reservist army to

 3    do it or it's a rule or everybody knew, if somebody is wearing the ribbon,

 4    red ribbon, that he is in some duty?

 5       A.   Even now, even today, red ribbons are worn probably so that people

 6    would know who is the person on duty.  For instance, who is the monitor at

 7    football matches, for instance, or if there's a party, people wear these

 8    ribbons.  To this day they wear them now in our parts.

 9            JUDGE JANU:  Thank you.

10            JUDGE TAYA:  You said that you had good relationship with Mitar

11    Vasiljevic as a neighbour.  My question is you had good relationship not

12    only Mitar Vasiljevic but Milojka, the wife of the accused?

13       A.   I had no reason at all not to be on good terms, good neighbourly

14    relations.  I had the same kind of relationships with them as I had with

15    all the other neighbours living in that town.  They had no privileged

16    position in relation to others, as far as I am concerned.

17            JUDGE TAYA:  After the arrest of Mitar Vasiljevic, did you have a

18    good relationship with Milojka continuously?

19       A.   I exchanged greetings as I have done always.

20            JUDGE TAYA:  By what way you become a witness of Mitar Vasiljevic

21    case?  I mean, you volunteered to become a witness or you are requested by

22    someone to become a witness?

23       A.   I was asked by the attorney.  Now, upon whose initiative, I don't

24    know, whether it was at Mitar's initiative or the attorney's, because I

25    had no reason to volunteer myself.  I'm not even -- I didn't even know

Page 2339

 1    that anything was needed.  So the initiative came from Defence counsel as

 2    far as I know.  Now, whether Mitar asked Defence counsel to ask me, I

 3    don't know.

 4            JUDGE TAYA:  You are not asked by Milojka?

 5       A.   No.  I never even discussed the matter with Milojka.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Have you any questions, Mr. Ossogo, arising out of

 7    the questions asked by the Judges?

 8            MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Tanaskovic.

10            MR. TANASKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, sir.  You are now free to leave.  Thank

12    you for coming here to give your evidence.

13            THE WITNESS:  Thank you too, Your Honours.

14                          [The witness withdrew]

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Which is your next witness?

16            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes, Your Honour.  The next witness is VGD22.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  Mr. Domazet, have you any indication

18    whether he will name any of the witnesses that you have sought to have

19    pseudonyms used for?

20            MR. DOMAZET:  I think not, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  If this does occur, if you have a belief that they

22    will, it would be a good idea to have a pseudonym sheet, the same way that

23    the Prosecution has been providing.  Only you can tell who the witnesses

24    may be referring to.

25            The court deputy has prepared a document with this witness's name

Page 2340

 1  and his pseudonym on it so that we can have that tendered as an exhibit,

 2    under seal, of course.  But if you can do that for each of your witnesses

 3    who have a pseudonym, it would be of some assistance.

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, sir, would you please make the solemn

 6    declaration in the form of the document which the court usher is showing

 7    you.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 9    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Sit down, please, sir.

11                          WITNESS:  WITNESS VGD22

12                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

13            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet.

14            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                          Examined by Mr. Domazet:

16       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.  I will be addressing you

17    today under your pseudonym which has been assigned to you, and that is

18    VGD22.  So we shall not be mentioning your name in view of the protective

19    measures requested by you and which the Trial Chamber has granted.

20            You understand that, don't you, VGD22?

21            JUDGE HUNT:  We do need to have --

22       A.   Yes.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  We do need to have him look at that document, agree

24    that that is his name, and then we make that an exhibit.

25            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

Page 2341

 1       Q.   Will you look and see whether that is your first and last name?

 2    Without reading it out, of course, just tell us if that is your name.

 3       A.   Yes, that is my first and last name.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm in your hands, Mr. Domazet, as to the next number

 5    of your exhibits.  Last one that we have or the highest one that we have

 6    is 22, coincidentally.  So is 23 your next number or have you assigned

 7    them --

 8            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes, 23.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well.  That will be Exhibit 23, and it is under

10    seal.

11            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   Sir, though it is customary for us to ask witnesses to tell us

13    about their personal particulars, I will limit myself to only a few

14    points, precisely with a view not to have your identity revealed.  So I

15    won't ask you about the date of your birth, but please tell us how old you

16    are.

17       A.   I am 38 years old.

18       Q.   Where are you living now, sir?

19       A.   I am living in Visegrad now.

20       Q.   Where were you living in 1992?

21       A.   I was living in Visegrad then, too.

22       Q.   Can it be said that throughout that period you lived in Visegrad,

23    before 1992 until the present?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   What is your current occupation?

Page 2342

 1       A.   My current occupation is that I am a professional military man in

 2    the army of Republika Srpska.

 3       Q.   Prior to the outbreak of the conflict in Visegrad and the

 4    surroundings, that is, sometime in spring 1992, what was your occupation

 5    then?  Where were you working?

 6       A.   Before the war started, I was a professional soldier with the JNA

 7    at the time.

 8       Q.   Were you an officer or a civilian employed by the JNA?

 9       A.   I was a soldier on contract with the JNA.

10       Q.   Could you tell us, please, where you were in April 1992,

11    professionally.

12       A.   In April 1992, from the 1st of April, 1992, my contract with the

13    JNA started to run, on the 1st of April, 1992.

14       Q.   So with the 1st of April, 1992, you join the JNA as a soldier

15    under contract.

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Where was your workplace at the time?

18       A.   At the time, my workplace was in the warehouse at Uzamnica in

19    Visegrad.

20       Q.   You mentioned the Uzamnica warehouse.  Is that the same place at

21    the JNA barracks in Uzamnica?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Tell us, please, where the barracks are in relation to the town of

24    Visegrad itself.

25       A.   The Uzamnica warehouse is about four or five kilometres upstream

Page 2343

 1    in relation to Visegrad.

 2       Q.   Can it be said that it is in the direction of Gorazde?

 3       A.   Yes, in view of the fact that the Drina flows to Visegrad from

 4    Gorazde.

 5       Q.   Is it on the river bank of the Drina?

 6       A.   No, it's not right on the river bank.  In fact, you can't see the

 7    river from the warehouse.

 8       Q.   Is the hydro power plant's dam, the dam of the Visegrad power

 9    plant, close by?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Could you tell us, please, what was your job, the position that

12    you took up in 1992?

13       A.   My job was -- the position was that of a mechanic for ammunition.

14       Q.   The barracks, was it at the same time an ammunition warehouse?

15       A.   Yes, in fact, it was an ammunition warehouse.

16       Q.   On the basis of the territorial organisation of the JNA at the

17    time, to whom did the barracks in Uzamnica belong?

18       A.   It belonged to the logistic base that was headquartered in

19    Sarajevo.

20       Q.   Could you tell us, in those days in April, what were the

21    relationships like in Visegrad itself?  Were relations upset among the

22    ethnic communities, and how did this affect your work in the JNA or,

23    rather, in the barracks itself?

24       A.   In my personal opinion, April was the time when events in Visegrad

25    climaxed and this affected, of course, our own organisation in the army

Page 2344

 1    and the question of organising the defence of the warehouse.

 2       Q.   Could you explain in somewhat greater detail what you have in mind

 3    in saying that?

 4       A.   What I had in mind was that as far as I can remember, by the end

 5    of April already, water was released from the accumulation lake of the

 6    Visegrad hydro power plant.  The civilians or the population looked for

 7    shelter and protection from us in the barracks, and we organised ourselves

 8    to take care of all those people.

 9       Q.   Yes.  We have heard about that, but those are events that occurred

10    when there was an imminent danger as a result of the release of the

11    water.  But immediately prior to that in your barracks, was the security

12    situation increased or the alert, the level of alert, was it heightened?

13       A.   Yes.  Yes, it was.

14       Q.   Why?

15       A.   Because, as I said, there was an ammunitions storage there and we

16    expected that the barracks might be attacked in order to gain access to

17    the ammunition.

18       Q.   So there was the danger, at least that was what the military

19    authorities thought, that somebody might try to take the ammunition that

20    had been stored there by force; is that right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Do you know who this referred to, that is to say, the potential

23    danger of attacking the barracks and seizing the ammunition?  Who did they

24    think might do this?

25       A.   Well, my superiors thought that it might come from the Muslim

Page 2345

 1    extremists.

 2       Q.   Do you happen to know that at that time, in the environs of the

 3    barracks or in Visegrad or the surrounding areas of Visegrad that that

 4    danger existed from this group of extremists who might attempt something

 5    like that?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Was it these people who had taken control of the dam or

 8    hydroelectric power plant during those days in April of 1992, those same

 9    people?

10       A.   Yes, precisely it referred to those people.

11       Q.   However, the barracks at Uzamnica or your warehouse there was not

12    attacked during that time; is that right?

13       A.   No, the barracks was not attacked.  It was a storehouse.

14       Q.   At that time, were you in the barracks all the time?  And when I

15    say "all the time," were you on duty round the clock day and night or

16    would you leave at some point after you'd finished your work, would you go

17    back to Visegrad home, back home to Visegrad?

18       A.   Our duties at the warehouse were round the clock, day and night,

19    and we did not have permission to go home.

20       Q.   When the dam was taken over and when they threatened to raise the

21    dam and release the water from the Drina, how did this affect your

22    barracks?  Did the refugees come into your barracks and the compound

23    around the barracks straight away?

24       A.   The refugees who asked for our assistance came before the water

25    was released from the hydroelectric power plant that you mentioned.

Page 2346

 1       Q.   Do you know whether they came because of the threat of the water

 2    being released from the dam or for some other reason?  Do you know why

 3    they came?

 4       A.   As I say, my superiors thought at the time that most had come to

 5    ask for assistance, and some of them were there for other reasons.  That's

 6    what my superiors thought.

 7       Q.   Can you tell us how many people there were at that time, the

 8    people that you took care of at the barracks at that time?  Give us a

 9    rough estimate, please.

10       A.   Well, 700 to 800 refugees were in the compound around the

11    warehouse at the time.

12       Q.   Can you tell us, in your assessment, what was the national

13    composition of those people?  Were they of mixed ethnicity; were there

14    Serbs, Muslims, or only one ethnic group or only the other ethnic group?

15    What were they, those people there?

16       A.   Well, the ethnic structure, I would say, was as follows:  90 per

17    cent were Muslims and the rest were Serbs.  The minority, therefore, were

18    Serbs.

19       Q.   How long did those people stay in the barracks with you?

20       A.   The refugees who were in the barracks, in the warehouse, stayed

21    until approximately the arrival of the Uzice Corps to Visegrad.

22       Q.   Can you tell us briefly what happened, once the Uzice Corps had

23    arrived, to the people who were with you and the people in other places

24    around Visegrad too?

25       A.   When the Uzice Corps came to Visegrad, the situation went back to

Page 2347

 1    normal, became more normal.  The economy began functioning.  Everybody

 2    went back to work - when I say "everybody," I'm thinking about the Serbs

 3    and Muslims - and life had almost got back to normal.

 4       Q.   So in your assessment, all those people returned to Visegrad,

 5    mostly began to work.  They went back to work and began to live normally.

 6    So you consider that life, generally speaking, in Visegrad had returned to

 7    normal, is that so?

 8       A.   Yes, compared to what the situation was like before.

 9       Q.   Can you tell us briefly what had happened before to cause a state

10    which was not normal?

11       A.   Well, it wasn't normal for the Muslim extremists to exert terror

12    on the non-Muslim population.  That was not normal, young and old alike,

13    on the streets, in the companies and businesses.  There were threats,

14    there was mistreatment and everything that results from that.

15       Q.   So in your opinion, that was before the arrival of the Uzice

16    Corps.  That was what the situation was like before the Uzice Corps

17    arrived; is that right?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   At that time - and I'm referring to the period before the arrival

20    of the Uzice Corps because of what you said - were there situations where

21    the Serb population left town, had to leave town?

22       A.   Yes.  Many Serbs started leaving town at that time because of the

23    different threats.

24       Q.   Did they, too, return to town after the arrival of the Uzice

25    Corps?

Page 2348

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   After the arrival the Uzice Corps, what was your job?  Did you

 3    continue working at the Uzamnica barracks or did you have some other

 4    assignment?

 5       A.   With the arrival of the Uzice Corps, my assignment was or, rather,

 6    the assignment of all of us was to ensure the dismantling of the warehouse

 7    securely, that is to say, to dislocate it, to move it.

 8       Q.   How long did you work at the Uzamnica barracks for?

 9       A.   Well, I stayed in the Uzamnica barracks until the 19th of May.

10       Q.   Why is that date important, the 19th of May that you just

11    mentioned?  What happened on that particular day?

12       A.   On the 19th -- the 19th of May was the date when the former JNA

13    left the territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14       Q.   On that day, did the Uzice Corps not only officially but

15    physically leave the Visegrad territory?  And what direction did it leave

16    in?

17       A.   Well, in view of the fact that the Uzice Corps was a JNA unit, so

18    up until that date, it left Visegrad.

19       Q.   Can I take that to mean that in days prior to that, the departure

20    of the Uzice Corps started and that the 19th of May was the last day, the

21    day when the last soldiers left Visegrad?  Is that right?  Is that what

22    you're saying?

23       A.   Yes, that's quite right.

24       Q.   Mr. VGD22, you were a soldier under contract to the JNA.  What did

25    you do at that point?  Were you offered the possibility of leaving

Page 2349

 1    Visegrad together with the JNA, and what did you do?

 2       A.   We were all offered to choose whether we could wish -- whether we

 3    wanted to remain, to have the JNA see to our status and whether we wished

 4    to remain under the JNA or the TO of the day.  I opted for the TO because

 5    my family home is there, my family is there.  So I wanted to stay.

 6       Q.   So you had the possibility of staying in the JNA, but if you were

 7    to choose that, you would have to leave Visegrad with the JNA units, and

 8    you have to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina altogether.  Did I understand you

 9    correctly?

10       A.   Yes.  That was how it was exactly.

11       Q.   And when you speak about the second option, that is to say, to

12    become part of the Territorial Defence, did you mean the Territorial

13    Defence in Visegrad proper, that is to say, where you lived?

14       A.   Yes, that's right.  The Territorial Defence headquarters and staff

15    and Visegrad decided on -- decided our status after that.

16       Q.   And as you decided to stay in Visegrad and placed yourself at the

17    disposal of the Territorial Defence, what was your position or function

18    after that within that organisation?

19       A.   My future assignment was within the composition of security,

20    securing the headquarters and command.  I was assigned to that.  I became

21    part of the military police in charge of security for the command and

22    headquarters.

23       Q.   So you were in the military police, providing security for the

24    command of the Territorial Defence in Visegrad; is that right?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2350

 1       Q.   Where was the seat, the headquarters of that Territorial Defence

 2    command?

 3       A.   The command was located at the time at the Bikavac Hotel in

 4    Visegrad.

 5       Q.   When you assumed that post, were you able to go home, and not like

 6    when you were at Uzamnica when you worked round the clock, when you were

 7    on duty round the clock and were not permitted to go home, were you able

 8    to go home then afterwards?

 9       A.   Yes, I was able to go home from time to time afterwards.

10       Q.   Could you tell us, please, where your house is located?  Where did

11    you live in Visegrad, in fact?

12       A.   My house is located downstream at 1.500 metres from town, so

13    downstream towards Visegradska Banja.

14       Q.   Can we say that you lived near -- we won't say which house -- [redacted]

15    [redacted]?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Did you know him personally?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Since when have you known him, and how did you come to know him,

20    could you tell us that, please?

21       A.   I have known Mr. Vasiljevic personally since he came to Visegrad

22    or, rather, since his father bought the house near my own house, quite

23    near my own house.  I know him since then.

24       Q.   How long is that, from now going backwards?

25       A.   Probably more than 25 years.

Page 2351

 1       Q.   You said that his father bought the house and that they lived in

 2    that house; is that right?

 3       A.   Yes.  His father bought the house, but Mr. Vasiljevic, Mr. Mitar

 4    Vasiljevic, lived in the house alone, of course, before he married.

 5       Q.   Do you know -- if you know that he married, do you know his

 6    family?

 7       A.   Yes, I know his family.

 8       Q.   Did he have to build his family house?

 9       A.   No, the house had already been built.

10       Q.   You mean the house he moved into and lived at the time, that's

11    what you're thinking of, but do you know that next to that house, a new

12    house was built?

13       A.   Yes.  Mr. Vasiljevic personally, himself, built himself a house, a

14    new family house.  He built it himself later on.

15       Q.   When you say "built," that would mean that it was completed and

16    that they had moved into it.  Now, do you know how long it took him and

17    whether he actually completed the building of the house?

18       A.   The family house belonging to Mr. Vasiljevic I think had a roof

19    before the war.  It had a roof over it, but they moved in only after the

20    end of the war.

21       Q.   Do you know that when the house was completed, that he rented out

22    the house and lived in his old house?  Do you know anything about that?

23       A.   Yes.  Mr. Vasiljevic went on living in the old house and he let

24    the new house.

25       Q.   Do you remember who he let it to?

Page 2352












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 2353

 1       A.   Yes.  Members of SFOR were in -- it was rented out to the SFOR

 2    members.

 3       Q.   I should now like, sir, to go back to the time when the JNA had

 4    left Visegrad and when you, yourself, were transferred from doing your job

 5    in Visegrad and went to join the security for Bikavac and as you said,

 6    yourself, were able to go home from time to time.  Now, do you happen to

 7    remember whether during that period of time, you saw Mr. Vasiljevic or

 8    learnt from somebody else where his whereabouts were, whether he had

 9    mobilised and, if so, where to?

10       A.   When I first went home, and the first couple of times, I didn't

11    see Mr. Vasiljevic, but I heard from his wife that he had been deployed as

12    a cook to some unit.  I think the place was Prelovo.

13       Q.   When you say, sir, at first when you went home you learnt about

14    this, now, as -- after the 19th of May, you started doing your job at

15    Bikavac.  Can we say that what you are talking about now was the period

16    after the 20th of May or, rather, the end of May 1992; would that be the

17    period?

18       A.   Yes, precisely that period.  That means after the 19th and 20th of

19    May to the end of May.

20       Q.   Do you remember whether after talking to his wife and learning

21    that from her, whether you happened to see him personally?

22       A.   Yes.  When I was on leave another time, I saw Mr. Vasiljevic in

23    front of his family house, and he confirmed himself that he had indeed

24    been sent to be a cook in Prelovo.

25       Q.   Can you remember or if you can remember, when you talked to him on

Page 2354

 1    that occasion, was he wearing a uniform of any kind, and if so, what?

 2       A.   As there were very few people in uniform to begin with in the TO,

 3    I think Mr. Vasiljevic at the time was wearing an old uniform of the

 4    former JNA type, which is the olive-green type of uniform that the former

 5    JNA soldiers used to wear.

 6       Q.   Was that a uniform which at that time, that is to say, before the

 7    departure of the JNA, was worn by the reservists who had been issued

 8    uniforms of that kind and kept them at home?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Do you remember whether on the occasion he had any weapons on

11    him?

12       A.   As he was at home, I'm sure he didn't have any weapons on him.

13       Q.   You saw him in front of the house.  I think that's what you said.

14    So he was in uniform, but you couldn't notice any weapons on him; is that

15    right?

16       A.   Yes.  His house is right up by the road, and I saw him passing

17    just in front of his house.

18       Q.   And he told you on that occasion that he was in fact in Prelovo

19    and working in the kitchen there; is that right?

20       A.   Yes.  I think he also told me that that was his training from the

21    regular army, that when he was in the regular army, he had been a cook,

22    too.

23       Q.   When you say regular army, you mean when he was doing his military

24    service in the JNA, I assume.  Is that what you meant, or did you mean his

25    reserve formation?

Page 2355

 1       A.   No.  I meant his regular military service in the JNA.

 2            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet, I had said that Tuesday evening we would

 4    look at how we're going with the list.  I don't think that we ever

 5    contemplated that your client would be in the box for quite so long, but

 6    notwithstanding that, we're keeping up pretty well to the timetable you

 7    have provided, and I rather suspect that we will run out of evidence

 8    unless you can get some -- at least another witness along.  Is it possible

 9    for you to get another witness this week?

10            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, in agreement with

11    the Victims and Witnesses Unit.  We're going to have a talk now, and they

12    tell me that there is the possibility of them bringing one or two

13    witnesses in to be here if we finish the witnesses we have before the end

14    of the week, that they would have two ready witnesses.

15            So are we -- may I just ask you, inquire whether we're working on

16    Friday afternoon or not?

17            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, we certainly are.  I think we, having lost the

18    two-week spell there, we've got to keep moving.  And you did get that

19    second week on the basis that we were sitting full time.  So I don't think

20    I have to take the whole of the blame for it.  But certainly I think you

21    should get somebody along if you can, because I suspect that these

22    witnesses will move a little bit more quickly than you've anticipated.

23            Very well.  We'll adjourn now and resume at 9.30 tomorrow

24    morning.

25                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.03 p.m.,

Page 2356

 1                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day

 2                          of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.