Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2357

 1                          Wednesday, 14 November 2001

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet.

 7            MR. DOMAZET:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                          WITNESS:  WITNESS VGD22 [Resumed]

 9                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                          Examined by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]

11       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. VGD22, good morning.  We shall continue our

12    conversation that we started yesterday afternoon when you explained how

13    and when you saw Mitar Vasiljevic near your house as you were on your way

14    home.  Did you ever see him in the command for which you provided security

15    at Bikavac?

16       A.   Good morning.  I understand where we're going to pick up from.

17    The only problem is my monitor's not switched on, so I can't follow the

18    interpretation.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.

20       A.   So your question was whether I ever saw Mr. Vasiljevic at the

21    command where I worked in the security.

22            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Yes.

24       A.   I did not have occasion to see Mr. Vasiljevic at the command which

25    I provided security for.

Page 2358

 1       Q.   Did you hear of him coming to the command at Bikavac?

 2       A.   Yes.  My colleagues who were working in the security at the

 3    command told me on one occasion that he had come to the command.

 4       Q.   Did you find out what the reason was for his coming and what

 5    happened?

 6       A.   I don't know why he came, but I think a misunderstanding occurred

 7    in the command.  I think that Mr. Vasiljevic had, I think, refused to

 8    carry out an order of the command, and I think he left his weapon at the

 9    command and marched out in a huff.  At least that is what I heard.

10       Q.   So if I understood you correctly, you learned from others, because

11    you were not at the command at the time, Mr. Vasiljevic came, there was a

12    discussion, and you said he left his weapon.

13       A.   Yes.  That is what I heard.

14       Q.   Do you know what happened with Mr. Vasiljevic after that?

15       A.   In view of the fact that I was working in the security of the

16    command, I know that they took Mr. Vasiljevic into custody.

17       Q.   Was Mr. Vasiljevic taken into custody at the command itself or was

18    it somewhere else?  Do you know that?

19       A.   I don't know whether it was at the command itself or at some other

20    place.

21       Q.   Where was this detention that Mr. Vasiljevic was taken to, as you

22    said?

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet, I don't recall there being any challenge

24    to your client's evidence about this.  If there is something that you

25    really want him to deal with, I suggest you lead him to the position where

Page 2359

 1    you want him to add something to what's already been said.  I know you're

 2    being very careful to not ask leading questions, but there was no issue

 3    taken that your client was charged with something, and indeed there is

 4    some promise, I think it was by you, that you would produce the document

 5    indicating what the punishment was.

 6            So if you want this witness to deal with something, please take

 7    him to it.  It will save us an awful lot of time.

 8            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately, we do

 9    not have any document about this - Mr. Vasiljevic testified to that - nor

10    do we have a document in our possession today about his detention.  That

11    is why I address these questions to this witness.  But I shall try and

12    limit myself to what may be of importance.

13       Q.   So my next question would be whether you had occasion to see

14    Mr. Vasiljevic during the time he was in prison.

15       A.   Yes.  Once I did have occasion to see him in the prison where he

16    was held.

17       Q.   Could you please describe how that happened.

18       A.   Actually, the encounter occurred as follows:  My neighbour and

19    friend, Dr. Radomir Vasiljevic, had been informed that Mr. Mitar was in

20    detention, and since he knew that I was on duty in the security of the

21    command, he asked me whether I could go with him to the place where the

22    detention unit was, for us to be able to visit Mitar.

23       Q.   And did you do that?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Did anyone else go with you in addition to Dr. Radomir Vasiljevic

Page 2360

 1    and yourself, if you remember?

 2       A.   Since it's been a long time, I think that we used the ambulance to

 3    go to the detention unit, and I assume that one of the nurses may have

 4    been present in the ambulance.

 5       Q.   Did you hear from Dr. Vasiljevic, or anyone else, the reason why

 6    the doctor and possibly a nurse needed to visit him?

 7       A.   Mr. Radomir Vasiljevic had been informed that Mr. Mitar was

 8    refusing food in detention, that he refused to eat, and he went to check

 9    that out, to see whether it was true.

10       Q.   On that occasion, did you personally see Mr. Vasiljevic, or was it

11    only Dr. Radomir Vasiljevic who actually saw him?

12       A.   Yes, I also saw Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic on that occasion.

13       Q.   Do you know, or could you perhaps tell us approximately when that

14    was when this happened, bearing in mind the time that you know you spent

15    at Bikavac?

16       A.   If you mean a date, then I would say it could have been the end of

17    May, possibly the beginning of June.

18       Q.   Do you know how long Mr. Vasiljevic was held in that detention

19    unit, for how many days?

20       A.   I don't know how much time Mr. Vasiljevic was held there.

21       Q.   And after that, did you see him around in Visegrad?

22       A.   Yes.  Shortly after that, shall I say a couple of days after this

23    visit of ours, I would see Mr. Vasiljevic in Visegrad.

24       Q.   Do you remember what he was doing when you saw him?

25       A.   I would see him -- or I saw him once when he was some kind of a

Page 2361

 1    monitor, a person working with a group of other people cleaning the

 2    streets and shop windows in town.

 3       Q.   Do you remember how he was dressed on that occasion, what kind of

 4    clothing he wore?

 5       A.   If I remember well, at the time Mr. Vasiljevic was dressed, in

 6    part, in military clothes, because I remember well he was just wearing

 7    SMB, or that is, olive-grey trousers of the former JNA, and on top he was

 8    wearing a civilian shirt or jacket of a darker colour.

 9       Q.   You mentioned that he acted as a kind of monitor.  How did you

10    come to that conclusion?

11       A.   I came to that conclusion on the basis of two reasons.  One was

12    that I had heard from my colleagues previously that Mr. Vasiljevic was

13    performing those duties, and the second reason was because - I don't

14    remember now whether it was his left or his right arm - he was wearing a

15    ribbon which was, in my mind, probably a marking for the Red Cross or

16    something like that.

17       Q.   What colour was this ribbon?

18       A.   I'm afraid I'm not quite sure, but I think it was red with white.

19    Now, whether it was white with red or red with white, I'm not quite sure.

20    I don't know which colour predominated.  But it was an indication of the

21    Red Cross.

22       Q.   Do you mean to say that in view of the colour that you remember

23    the ribbon was in, that your association was that it was linked to the Red

24    Cross?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2362

 1       Q.   Was he armed on that occasion?

 2       A.   On that occasion he certainly did not have a weapon.  I didn't see

 3    a weapon on him.  Because he himself participated in the cleaning of the

 4    streets and the shop windows.  He was actually working.

 5       Q.   You said a moment ago that after that day, you would also come

 6    across him.  Was he armed on any of those other subsequent occasions?

 7       A.   I saw him as this monitor only once.  The next time I would see

 8    him, it would be in front of his family home, and he was not armed.

 9       Q.   Until when were you personally in Bikavac working as security of

10    the command?

11       A.   I don't remember the exact date, but very briefly.  I performed

12    those duties for a short while.

13       Q.   And after that, where were you assigned?

14       A.   After that, I was assigned to the duty of an operator for

15    ammunition, which actually I had done before the war had broken out, at

16    the ammunition depot.

17       Q.   Does that mean that you returned to (redacted) and continued

18      working there?

19       A.   No.  In that period of time, the (redacted) was not at (redacted).

20       Q.   After these occasions that you have described, when you saw

21    Vasiljevic, did you continue seeing him in the course of June or July or

22    not?

23       A.   I may have seen him a couple of more times after that, but later,

24    I was told that he was no longer in Visegrad, as he had an injury of his

25    leg, a fracture of his leg, as I was told.

Page 2363

 1       Q.   Did you hear where he was undergoing treatment?

 2       A.   At the hospital in Uzice was where he was treated.

 3       Q.   Did you see him after he returned from treatment?

 4       A.   Upon his return from treatment, whenever I went home, I would see

 5    Mr. Vasiljevic in front of his own house.  Usually he would be sitting

 6    there with a plaster cast on his leg.  And if he was walking, he did so

 7    with the help of crutches.

 8       Q.   In view of the fact that you lived quite close to his house and

 9    you knew him, could you tell us a few words about him as a person,

10    especially what you knew about him in those days in particular.

11       A.   I don't know whether I will manage to explain properly the person

12    as I know him, for Mr. Vasiljevic, as far as his humane and moral

13    qualities are concerned, was a positive character in every sense of the

14    word.  When I say "positive," I mean that there wasn't anyone who could

15    say that he had done anything bad or that he had hurt anyone at all.

16    Actually, there was no one who could say any such things.  And I should

17    like to be more precise.

18       Q.   Yes, please try.

19       A.   From the moment I met Mr. Vasiljevic, as I lived in a certain

20    family situation, he would always assist me.  When I was building my own

21    family house, in a period of time when the building was ongoing, I went to

22    do my regular military service, and Mr. Vasiljevic, not only did he

23    personally come to the assistance of my mother, as I was living with my

24    mother only, but he also organised other neighbours and friends to lend a

25    helping hand to my mother in the construction of our house.  For me, this

Page 2364

 1    is a gesture that I will never forget.

 2            And there are other situations on the basis of which I see

 3    Mr. Vasiljevic as a noble and good-hearted man.

 4            I am married now and I have two children, a six-year-old daughter

 5    who is handicapped.  She has been since she was two.  And for a whole

 6    year, we chased around various medical institutions looking for remedies

 7    for my daughter.  And among other things, on one occasion we needed to go

 8    to Italy for certain tests to be done over there.  I think this was in

 9    1998 or 1999.

10            Mr. Vasiljevic, whenever we would meet, would inquire about my

11    Tamara, my daughter, whether she was better.  And when my wife was due to

12    leave for Italy with Tamara, Mr. Vasiljevic came over and gave my wife a

13    hundred German marks banknote, which was for us a lot of money in those

14    days, for her to have on her journey.  And for us, this was a lot of

15    money, because our earnings were very small.  And I considered this a most

16    generous gesture which I will always remember.

17       Q.   Thank you for this description.  But let me ask you, in those

18    days, in 1992, did you hear from others that Mr. Vasiljevic had done

19    anything bad to anyone or that he was a member of any paramilitary units?

20       A.   I never heard from anyone that Mr. Vasiljevic was on bad terms

21    with anyone.  And if you were to ask anyone from Visegrad the same

22    question, you would get the same answer.

23            As regards paramilitary organisations and Mr. Vasiljevic's

24    involvement with them, as far as I am familiar with the situation and as

25    far as I know Mr. Vasiljevic, I cannot imagine him being one of them.

Page 2365

 1       Q.   When you learnt that he was arrested and surrendered to the

 2    Detention Unit in The Hague, what was your reaction?

 3       A.   Well, you see, in view of the kind of person I know Mr. Vasiljevic

 4    to be, I was astonished that this could have happened to him, because I

 5    really couldn't think of a single reason that would justify him being held

 6    here as an accused for anything.

 7       Q.   Was this just your opinion or was it shared by anyone else in

 8    Visegrad?

 9       A.   Everyone was surprised that this should have happened to him.

10       Q.   Did Mr. Vasiljevic like to have a drink?  And of course I mean

11    spirits.  Are you aware of that?

12       A.   Yes.  Mr. Vasiljevic, in a certain period of his life, drank a

13    little too much, which did not affect our good neighbourly relations.

14    This applies both to me and other neighbours and acquaintances.  Nor did

15    it affect his family situation.  What I mean to say is that the family did

16    not suffer because he used alcohol.

17       Q.   Apart from this injury for which he was treated in hospital, as

18    you explained, do you know whether he was injured at any other time after

19    that again?

20       A.   Yes.  Mr. Vasiljevic did not seem to have any luck with those

21    injuries.

22            As soon as his plaster cast was taken off the first time he had

23    broken his leg - I think he was visiting his father in the village - he

24    broke the same leg again and had to go to Uzice for treatment once again,

25    to the hospital there, and he had to wear a plaster cast for a long time

Page 2366

 1    again, so that was rather unlucky.

 2       Q.   After what you have just told us about, was he injured at all?

 3    Did he have another incident of that kind?

 4       A.   Yes.  I do know that Mr. Vasiljevic had another spine operation

 5    during the war, and that operation was performed, I think, in Belgrade.

 6    After that, he had another injury.  He was somewhere at the front lines,

 7    deployed there somewhere, and as far as I know, he wasn't very

 8    professional in handling weapons.  He didn't -- and there was a

 9    self-inflicted injury that took place.  He injured his foot.  I don't

10    remember whether it was the foot of the right or the left leg.

11       Q.   Thank you.  And finally, I should like to ask you a few questions

12    relating to the early period at the end of May, or rather, in April, when

13    you were in (redacted), before the arrival of the Uzice Corps.  Now, from

14    the compound of your (redacted), was there shooting from there,

15    before the Uzice Corps arrived, at any time?

16    A.   From the (redacted), where I was working immediately prior

17    to the outbreak of the war, quite certainly there was not.  Not a single

18    shot was fired.  I'm quite sure about that.  And let me explain.  The

19    first bullet that was fired, unintentionally, was by a member of the

20    reserve forces from within the Uzice Corps, and this happened just by

21    chance, and a fire broke out in one of the outhouses in the store house.

22    I mention that because I know that that was the only bullet that caused

23    problems for us in the warehouse itself.

24       Q.   But as I understand you, this incident took place after the

25    arrival of the Uzice Corps; is that right?

Page 2367

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   You said "not a single bullet."  Now, to be precise, was there any

 3    shooting from a mortar or from any other type of weapon?

 4       A.   No.  From no kind of weapon was there any shooting from the

 5    (redacted), neither before the Uzice Corps arrived or afterwards.

 6       Q.   And one more question related to the departure of the Uzice Corps,

 7    which, as you said, took place in the days before the 19th of May.  You

 8    said that the 19th of May was the date when the last members of the Uzice

 9    Corps left.  Now, as they left Visegrad, did the members of the Uzice

10    Corps take with them vehicles, armaments, and all the other equipment that

11    they had with them, or not?

12       A.   As I worked in the post that I did, I can say with full

13    responsibility that after the departure of the Uzice Corps, everything in

14    the warehouse was empty, and the doors were open, the keys were in the

15    administrative building, and everything had been taken.  It all went with

16    the Uzice Corps.

17       Q.   Yes, but what I was asking you was:  Did they leave behind a tank,

18    a top, or any other materiel of that kind, a gun?

19       A.   No.  We didn't have materiel of that kind in the warehouse.

20            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. VGD22.  I have no

21    further questions.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Bauer.

23            MS. BAUER:  Your Honours, I would like to go, for a start, in a

24    short private session because I have some questions which would reveal

25    probably the identity of this witness.

Page 2368

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  Very well.  We'll go into private session.

 2                          [Private session]

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Page 2369

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13                          [Open session]

14            JUDGE HUNT:  We are now back in public session.

15            MS. BAUER:

16       Q.   VGD22, you just told us at the end of your testimony today that

17    Mitar Vasiljevic would have a drink from time to time; correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And as far as you know, he continued regularly to work as a

20    waiter; correct?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   He continued to build his new house?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   As far as you are aware, he didn't react aggressively if drunk?

25       A.   No.  He never behaved aggressively.

Page 2370

 1       Q.   Neither to you as a neighbour?

 2       A.   Towards me as a neighbour, never.  I don't know about -- and he

 3    wasn't aggressive to other neighbours either, and I said that he wasn't

 4    aggressive towards his family members.

 5       Q.   Did you ever see him drunk?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And according to you, he never lost control, did he?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   Did you know that Mitar Vasiljevic was convicted for having an

10    altercation with a Serb in the 1980s?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Yesterday, you told us - and for the reference of the Court and

13    the Defence, at transcript page 83 - that you were contracted by the JNA

14    as of 1st of April, 1992; correct?

15       A.   I was not called.  I signed a contract on permanent employment

16    with the JNA.

17       Q.   Who negotiated this contract with you?

18       A.   The contract appeared in the Official Gazette.  I responded to the

19    competition that was published, and I had all the qualifications for that

20    post and was accepted.

21       Q.   Did you get any support from any side, political support, for this

22    position?

23       A.   I don't understand what you mean by that.  How do you mean

24    "political support"?  From what side?  As I said --

25       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

Page 2371

 1       A.   No.  I had nothing to do with them, no contact with them at all.

 2    Not only with them but with no party.

 3       Q.   Who paid your salaries?

 4       A.   Well, the then-JNA.

 5       Q.   And where did your paycheques come from?

 6       A.   From the command of the army.

 7       Q.   And where was the command of the army?

 8       A.   The command of the army -- it was the army district in Sarajevo,

 9    and the command of the army was in Belgrade.

10       Q.   So you got your money from Belgrade; is this correct?

11       A.   Probably.

12       Q.   You went right to the (redacted) without any training,

13    didn't you?

14       A.   Yes, but previously I had been trained for work of that kind, the

15    work that I was later to do.  I had been previously trained.

16       Q.   Where had you been trained?

17       A.   While I did my regular military service in the JNA.

18       Q.   And where did you do your regular military service?

19       A.   In Pec.  It is a town in Kosovo and Metohija.

20       Q.   VGD22, the JNA was a rather big army; right?

21       A.   Was, yes.

22       Q.   And they did recruit you directly from Visegrad; right?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Did they recruit other people from Visegrad at the same time?

25       A.   Yes, in Visegrad.

Page 2372

 1       Q.   Who were those people?

 2       A.   I don't know if I can remember the names now, but when I responded

 3    to the competition and applied, they asked for five candidates.  I think

 4    it was five, and I think that five were accepted for different work posts

 5    at the time.  There were five vacancies.

 6       Q.   And the five that were accepted, what ethnicity were they?

 7       A.   All five were of Serb ethnicity.

 8       Q.   Apart from those five positions, did the JNA do any other

 9    recruitment at that time in Visegrad?

10       A.   Then, no.

11       Q.   So later they did?

12       A.   No, before.

13       Q.   So would they recruit any paramilitaries as well?

14       A.   No, not at all, by no means.

15       Q.   So you testified that you worked as an ammunition mechanic at the

16    [redacted].  The (redacted) actually stored TO weapons

17    ammunition for the whole municipality, didn't it?

18       A.   I don't know whether I am qualified enough to talk about that

19    topic, but I think that they were federal reserves, federal ammunition

20    reserves.

21            And I would like to ask that as I still work in that work post in

22    the same warehouse, that we do not discuss that portion of how much is

23    where, whose it is, and so on.  I'm thinking of the military materiel

24    stored in that warehouse.

25            MS. BAUER:  Your Honours, if the witness has some serious concerns

Page 2373

 1    about his security, I would have a couple of questions to ask him about

 2    exactly the issue of weapons in storage, et cetera, and I would then ask

 3    to go for a short private session.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Have you any view on that, Mr. Domazet?  It seems the

 5    witness does have some concern.

 6            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I agree that we move into private

 7    session, because I feel that the witness is concerned.  He's worried that

 8    the questions that might be asked of him might bring him into a difficult

 9    position and what was called in the JNA a military secret that he is

10    obliged to keep, confidentiality and secrecy that he is obliged to keep.

11    So I assume that the witness is concerned about that.  But we can only

12    know what that will entail when the question is actually asked.

13            So I do agree that we go into private session, yes.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Bauer, we will go into private session and then I

15    want to say something about what Mr. Domazet has said.

16            Private session, please.

17                          [Private session]

18  [redacted]

19  [redacted]

20  [redacted]

21  [redacted]

22  [redacted]

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21                          [Open session]

22            JUDGE HUNT:  We are now in public session.

23            MS. BAUER:

24       Q.   You yesterday told us that at that time you feared an attack by

25    Muslim extremists, and now you're telling us that you did have Muslim

Page 2377

 1    soldiers and co-workers at that time still with you.  Wouldn't it have

 2    been logical to get rid of the Muslim soldiers first?

 3       A.   No.  To my understanding, that is not logical.  When I said

 4    "Muslim extremists," not all the Muslim population was extremist, if I

 5    may say so, like those groups of extremists, and especially not

 6    professional military men.  There were different ethnic groups, and

 7    especially those working in the warehouse.

 8       Q.   But if they would have feared an attack of their like, they would

 9    have not come to work any more, would they?

10       A.   As they said in those days, they were not their like.  There was

11    equal status for members of Serb and Muslim ethnicity that were working in

12    the warehouse at that time.

13       Q.   So if I understand you, then, correctly, at that time there was no

14    conflict between the Muslim and Serb population in Visegrad around the

15    beginning of April; is that what you're telling us?

16       A.   In Visegrad, yes, among the civilian population, but in the

17    warehouse itself, amongst us, there were no problems.

18       Q.   So the civilian population would fight with each other and the

19    military would be peaceful; is this correct?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Where did they get their weapons from, the civilians?

22       A.   The weapons were probably illegally procured.

23       Q.   Isn't it rather correct, VGD22, that Serbs were provided, through

24    political and military bodies, with weapons in spring of 1992?

25       A.   In view of the fact that I had no contact with weapons, I was not

Page 2378

 1    handling weapons, I don't know that.

 2       Q.   Did you have a weapon before 1st of April, 1992?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   As of April 1st, 1992?

 5       A.   As of 1st of April, 1992, that was the beginning of my official

 6  contract with the JNA.  Before that I was also in the (redacted),

 7    and both myself and all others were armed.

 8       Q.   So my question was:  Did you have, before April 1st, 1992, a

 9    weapon?  Yes or no, please.

10       A.   Yes, in the (redacted).

11       Q.   So that means -- was there storage room for weapons if you would

12    leave the (redacted)?

13       A.   The personal weapons we had would be left with the security of the

14    warehouse.

15       Q.   VGD22, it was wartime, wasn't it?

16       A.   The war could be said to have started on the 6th of April.  You're

17    asking me about the period prior to that.

18       Q.   Then let's go after the 6th of April.  You still worked at the

19    (redacted); right?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   So if you say the war broke out on the 6th of April, it would have

22    rather been unsafe to walk around without a weapon after that, no?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   So at that point in time, you didn't walk around without a weapon

25    any more, did you?

Page 2379

 1       A.   At that time, too, I was in the warehouse.

 2       Q.   You also slept at the warehouse?

 3       A.   Yes.  Not in the warehouse, but in a dormitory.

 4    Q.   So when was the first time you personally would leave the (redacted)

 5  (redacted)?

 6       A.   On the 19th of May, when the JNA left the then Bosnia and

 7    Herzegovina.

 8       Q.   And when you left the (redacted), would you take your

 9    weapon with you?

10       A.   Yes.  We were all left with our personal weapons when the JNA

11    left.

12       Q.   And isn't it correct that according to military rules, it would

13    have been an offence to lose your weapon?

14       A.   Probably, but I don't know which weapons were lost.

15       Q.   Did you personally ever lose your weapon?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   I assume when you were on leave, you took it home with you, didn't

18    you?

19       A.   Sometimes I took it with me, but in most cases while we were at

20    the warehouse, we left it there.

21       Q.   I'm talking now after the warehouse, when you were basically

22    assigned in Bikavac as a military policeman.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And that was around end May; right?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2380

 1       Q.   And you told us that Mitar Vasiljevic was mobilised at the same

 2    time, correct, end May, 19th May?

 3       A.   I don't know when he was mobilised, but he was mobilised, like

 4    everybody else who was able-bodied.

 5       Q.   And you knew that he worked in a kitchen in Prelovo.  You

 6    testified that at transcript page 94 of yesterday's transcript.

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And he told you that he was a cook; correct?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And the assignments of a cook are actually to transport food back

11    and forth from Visegrad front lines to supply food to soldiers and troops;

12    isn't that correct?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   It would have been rather unsafe for him to have no weapon; isn't

15    that correct?

16       A.   It doesn't mean that the cook had to go personally every time

17    distributing food to the troops.

18       Q.   And let's assume he would travel to Visegrad and back and forth.

19    You would have taken along a weapon, wouldn't you?

20       A.   Yes.  I would, yes.

21       Q.   Coming back to you, actually when you were assigned, how was your

22    shift like in Bikavac?  Did you work daytimes, night-times, mixed shifts?

23       A.   Mostly they were day- and night-long shifts, so it depended on the

24    time period how long our shifts would last.

25       Q.   How would a usual -- how long would a usual shift last?

Page 2381

 1       A.   I don't know, but I think like guard duty.  I don't think it

 2    lasted more than two hours.

 3       Q.   So how often would you say you would go home, every two days,

 4    every day, every night?

 5       A.   I don't remember exactly how frequently we went home, but when I

 6    was free, when I was not on duty, I could be given a short leave to go

 7    home.

 8       Q.   When you went home, you took along your weapon, didn't you?

 9       A.   Not every time.

10       Q.   Most of time?

11       A.   Yes, probably.

12       Q.   Sir, you testified that you never, ever, when you saw Mitar

13    Vasiljevic, saw him with any kind of -- type of weapon; correct?

14       A.   Yes, correct.

15       Q.   Can you think of any reason why Mitar Vasiljevic would tell us

16    then that he possessed an automatic rifle during his time in Prelovo?  You

17    didn't see him with this, did you?

18       A.   I would see Mr. Vasiljevic mostly when he was on leave, in front

19    of his house, and I never saw him when he was on duty as a cook in

20    Prelovo.

21       Q.   So you didn't see him having an automatic rifle?  Yes or no,

22    please.

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   And you also never saw him carrying a submachine-gun, a so-called

25    Schmeisser, in spring of 1992, did you?

Page 2382

 1       A.   No.  No.

 2       Q.   And once released from hospital in summer, you never saw him

 3    having a tommy submachine-gun in his house for his protection, did you?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   A Thompson gun, I think is the correct word.  I'm sorry I confused

 6    you.

 7       A.   No, I didn't see him.

 8       Q.   So actually, you didn't saw him that often at all to be absolutely

 9    sure whether Mitar Vasiljevic had a gun or not; right?

10       A.   As at the time he was on sick leave whenever I saw him in front of

11    his house, he was not armed.

12       Q.   Let's go to see Mr. Vasiljevic cleaning the street.  Did you see

13    him once or several times doing that?

14       A.   Only once.

15       Q.   As a military policeman in the Bikavac Hotel, did you have any

16    notice that Mitar Vasiljevic would undertake such a cleaning job?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   When you saw him, did you stop actually and talk to him or were

19    you just in passing?

20       A.   Only in passing.

21       Q.   So you actually cannot really talk about the operation of the

22    cleaning, can you?

23       A.   When I say "in passing," I saw some people washing the shop

24    windows, cleaning, removing certain posters and leaflets.  Others were

25    cleaning the streets with brooms.  That is what I could see as I passed

Page 2383

 1    by.

 2       Q.   You said you passed by.  Walking or in a car?

 3       A.   On that occasion, I was in an official vehicle.

 4       Q.   So actually, you had just a short glimpse of Mr. Vasiljevic,

 5    didn't you?

 6       A.   Well, you could put it that way.  I didn't stop the car.  I didn't

 7    stop.  I saw him from the car as I passed by.

 8       Q.   Do you remember whether this was daytime or night-time?

 9       A.   Daytime.

10       Q.   The people he was cleaning with were the Serbs?

11       A.   If I remember well, there were both Serbs and Muslims.  All the

12    people who were employed in a particular shop would come out of the shop

13    to clean their shop windows.  The others were cleaning the streets.

14       Q.   It was end May, beginning June of 1992; correct?

15       A.   I think that was the period, yes.

16       Q.   And Muslims were at war at that time with Serbs; right?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   So can you explain the reason why Muslims would happily clean

19    streets with a Serb?

20       A.   Probably, as would happen in my own unit, not all the people were

21    keen on waging war.

22       Q.   Isn't it correct that most of the Muslim shops were actually

23    closed at that time already?

24       A.   I don't know about that.

25       Q.   You testified about Mitar Vasiljevic wearing a SMB old uniform.

Page 2384

 1    Did you ever see him with a black military-type hat?

 2       A.   No.  No such military hat exists.

 3       Q.   Is your testimony that in the whole military there was no military

 4    hat in existence?

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  No black one, I think he's saying, Ms. Bauer.

 6            MS. BAUER:

 7       Q.   Black military hat.  Sorry.

 8       A.   No.  There was no black hat among army members.

 9       Q.   So what kind of colour hat, if any hat was worn by the military

10    then?

11       A.   No hats were worn in the army as part of the official military

12    uniform.

13       Q.   You said as part of the "official military uniform."  Were there

14    unofficial occasions where a hat was worn?

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Look, Ms. Bauer, I'm not sure where we're going with

16    this.  How can he answer that?  A lot of people may have worn a military

17    uniform and a black hat.  How would he know, unofficially or otherwise?

18            The problem is that the Prosecution seems to be unable to identify

19    just what hat it is they're referring to.  It's been described in other

20    terms other than a military hat, and I don't really see that it is part of

21    its case that the hat that the accused was seen wearing was any sort of

22    military hat.  It certainly hadn't been apparent if that is its case.  So

23    I don't see where you're getting with this cross-examination.  If I may

24    suggest that you move on to something that you may get somewhere with.

25            MS. BAUER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2385

 1       Q.   On his uniform -- you're a military person; right?  You were a

 2    soldier.

 3       A.   Yes, I was a soldier.

 4       Q.   So you were familiar with insignias; right?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And the insignia you referred to Mitar Vasiljevic having was a Red

 7    Cross insignia; isn't that correct?

 8       A.   I assume it was a mark indicating the Red Cross.

 9       Q.   Did he wear this ribbon any time else apart from the one time you

10    saw him cleaning the street?

11       A.   It was only then that I saw this ribbon on his arm.

12       Q.   So you never, apart from this one time, saw him having this ribbon

13    on the arm; right?

14       A.   I don't remember whether I saw him any other time with that

15    ribbon.

16       Q.   Do you remember having given a statement to Mr. Tanaskovic in

17    August 1992 -- sorry, 2000.

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And you gave the statement voluntarily?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And you signed that statement?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And you signed it as basically true and accurate to your knowledge

24    at that time; right?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2386

 1       Q.   Okay.  Did you say to Mr. Tanaskovic, and I quote you from the

 2    English translation:

 3            "I forgot to say that Mitar Vasiljevic wore an armband with a red

 4    cross on the said uniform.  He also," and I stress the word "also," "wore

 5    that symbol when he was making the people clean the streets."

 6            Did you say that to Mr. Tanaskovic?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Wouldn't you agree with me, VGD22, that the word "also" refers

 9    that you have seen him more than once with the said Red Cross sign on his

10    uniform?

11       A.   But you see, the way I recollected that particular detail then,

12    and I am reminded now again that he did have this red ribbon on his arm.

13    It wasn't something that I would have to remember.

14       Q.   But it was rather such a distinct sign, wasn't it, that you refer

15    to it as a Red Cross sign in the statement?

16       A.   I said that, that it was a mark indicating affiliation with the

17    Red Cross, because that type of work that he was doing was done by members

18    of the Red Cross and the civil defence.

19       Q.   Did he ever tell you that he worked for the Red Cross maybe?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Now let me ask you:  End May/beginning of June, you were to go to

22    the town of Visegrad on occasions, wouldn't you?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Would you see many Muslims around that time?

25       A.   Not many, but I would see them.

Page 2387

 1       Q.   Isn't it a fact that most of them were leaving town in convoys at

 2    that time?

 3       A.   I don't know.  In that period I would still see them in town.

 4       Q.   As part of the military police, did you ever arrest Muslim men?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Did you learn that Muslim men were taken away?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   You never heard that they were interrogated?

 9       A.   No.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Bauer, may I remind you of something I said to

11    Mr. Ossogo yesterday about this line of cross-examination.  There was no

12    dispute, as I understood it, to the Prosecution case that there was such

13    conduct in relation to Muslims in this particular town or the area.  Now,

14    in those circumstances, do you need to pursue this witness' knowledge that

15    it was going on if it's not in dispute?

16            MS. BAUER:  Your Honours, I'm not quite sure it's not in dispute,

17    actually, because as far as I understood so far the Defence case, it still

18    is in dispute that there was an attack on the civilian population.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, there is on paper, but where was there in the

20    evidence?

21            MS. BAUER:  Well, so far we didn't hear all evidence yet.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  It was the obligation of the Defence to put its case

23    to the Prosecution witnesses.  None of them was cross-examined to suggest

24    that their evidence in relation to that sort of thing was untrue.  Now,

25    the Trial Chamber is permitted in those circumstances to proceed upon the

Page 2388

 1    basis that it is not in issue.  If the Defence is unwise enough to attempt

 2    to bring evidence in its case that it hasn't raised in the

 3    cross-examination of the Prosecution case, then you will have a case in

 4    reply.  Let us not attempt to assume that the Defence doesn't know what

 5    it's doing.

 6            MS. BAUER:

 7       Q.   VGD22, you told us something yesterday about the relocation of or

 8    dismantling of the (redacted).  Where was the materiel relocated

 9    to, if you testified about relocation?

10       A.   All the ammunition (redacted), already while the

11    Uzice Corps was present there, was dislocated and moved to other

12    warehouses outside Visegrad.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  Is that an appropriate time?

14            MS. BAUER:  Yes.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well.  We'll resume at 11.30.

16                          --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

17                          --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Ms. Bauer.

19            MS. BAUER:

20       Q.   VGD22, I'd like to go back to the Red Cross sign.  I'd like to

21    understand your testimony.  Did you say today that you actually saw a Red

22    Cross symbol or that you assume that Mitar Vasiljevic wore a Red Cross

23    symbol?

24       A.   I said that I saw Mitar Vasiljevic wearing a ribbon on his arm

25    which was red in colour, and in view of the kind of work he was doing, I

Page 2389

 1    assumed that it was the sign of the Red Cross.

 2       Q.   However, also as you told us in your statement, you didn't say you

 3    assumed it but you saw him actually with it; is that correct?

 4       A.   I still think that it was the sign of the Red Cross.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Would you say you knew Mr. Vasiljevic very well before

 6    the war?

 7       A.   Well, I can't say that I knew him especially well.  We weren't

 8    especially intimate, but we were on good terms, good neighbourly

 9    relations.

10       Q.   And you would consider him a rather, you know, well-known person

11    in town, wouldn't you?  He was a waiter as far as we know, wasn't he?

12       A.   Yes.  People mostly knew him.  Most of the locals knew him, yes.

13       Q.   And as far as you are aware, he never had a bad reputation in

14    town?

15       A.   As far as I know, that's right.

16       Q.   So Muslims as well as Serbs alike didn't have any reason to

17    dislike Mr. Vasiljevic, did they?

18       A.   That's right.

19       Q.   And you wouldn't know of any reason why somebody would lie about

20    Mitar Vasiljevic, would you?

21       A.   I'm not sure I understand your question.

22       Q.   Well, do you think there is any reason that people would want to

23    lie about Mitar Vasiljevic if he was a rather well-liked person?

24       A.   I don't know the reason why some people said about Mr. Vasiljevic

25    that he was a negative character.  As far as I know, there was no reason

Page 2390

 1    for characterising him in that way.

 2       Q.   Would you consider Mr. Vasiljevic a friend?

 3       A.   Well, I would say basically yes.

 4       Q.   And you would like to help a friend, wouldn't you?

 5       A.   Of course.

 6       Q.   Is this the reason why you came here today?

 7       A.   I am here just to say how I know Mr. Vasiljevic, the kind of man

 8    that I think he is.

 9            MS. BAUER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  No further questions.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Re-examination?

11                          Re-examined by Mr. Domazet:

12       Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, just a moment ago when we went back to the

13    question of the ribbon and when you -- your attention was drawn to the

14    statement that you gave to Mr. Tanaskovic where the Red Cross was

15    mentioned, the question was, in fact, to explain that.  And you said that

16    today you also think that it was the Red Cross sign.

17            Now, I'm asking you the following:  Do you think that for the

18    reasons you stated a moment ago - and you said that it was a red band and

19    that that is why you assumed that it was the Red Cross and because of the

20    kind of function he performed, the post -- the job he was doing - or

21    because you saw something else on it?

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet, if you want us to take any notice of his

23    answer, you must not ask leading questions.  Just as in evidence in chief,

24    you must not ask leading questions in re-examination.  You've probably

25    destroyed the value of his answer already, but I suggest that you do not

Page 2391

 1    lead him to the answer you want.

 2            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Well, there were

 3    several different answers so that I was in dilemma.  I don't know what the

 4    witness's final answer was.  So let me restate the question, rephrase it.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  I'll read you his final answer.  The question was:

 6                     Q.   However, also as you told us in your statement, you

 7                          didn't say you assumed it but you saw him actually

 8                          with it; is that correct?

 9            And the answer was:

10                     A.   I still think that it was the sign of the Red

11                          Cross.

12            Now, that's where he's finished.  You may ask him any questions

13    you like in a non-leading form about that, but that's where he is at the

14    moment.

15            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely that:  "I think it

16    was the sign of the Red Cross."

17       Q.   Now, I'm asking you:  On the basis of what do you assume that it

18    was the sign of the Red Cross?  What leads you to that conclusion?

19       A.   I'm not sure that I actually saw - how shall I put this? - a red

20    cross, an actual red cross, but the jobs he was doing, as far as I was

21    able to see, would have been the kinds of jobs performed by somebody

22    belonging to the Red Cross.

23       Q.   Thank you.  I think that is sufficient.  Another question asked by

24    the Prosecution was the following, and it had to do with the function of

25    Drago Gavrilovic.  Now, I'm just interested in the following:  Did he work

Page 2392












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Page 2393

 1    in the command that was at Bikavac?

 2       A.   While I was there, no.

 3       Q.   Did he come there, as far as you know?

 4       A.   I didn't notice him up there, no.

 5       Q.   Was there some other command in the town of Visegrad itself or at

 6    Bikavac itself?

 7       A.   I was providing security for the command that was at Bikavac.  As

 8    for the rest, I don't know.

 9       Q.   And one more question.  I think that there was some

10    misunderstanding how you started working on the 1st of April in the JNA.

11    Did this come about because you responded to an advertisement published by

12    the JNA with vacancies for certain posts?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Now, this advertisement, was it public?  Did it appear in the

15    public information media?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Could all citizens apply, all citizens of Yugoslavia, could they

18    apply, the then Yugoslavia that existed?

19       A.   Yes.  Everybody who fulfilled the conditions of the competition or

20    advertisement were eligible to apply.

21       Q.   Was it for five work posts, five vacancies, and were all five

22    vacancies filled after that?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   It was a contractual relationship with the army, for which you

25    received remuneration; is that right?

Page 2394

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Does it have anything to do with doing your military service, that

 3    all able-bodied young men and citizens have to do?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   At that time, that is to say, from the 1st of April until the 19th

 6    of May, did you leave the warehouse at (redacted) or not?

 7       A.   No.

 8            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

 9    questions, Your Honours.

10            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have no questions, but I do have an

11    application before you excuse the witness.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.

13            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it's regarding the prior statement of

14    this witness.  Under its present form, the only proper use, according to

15    my understanding, that the Court can use it is to assess the credibility

16    of VGD22.  It is a statement that does contain an affirmation by the

17    witness, and his signature, that he acknowledges, that he affirms that

18    everything stated here is the truth.  I would at this time tender that

19    statement into evidence so that the Court can -- because of the importance

20    of the issue raised, that the Court can use it substantively as a piece of

21    evidence in the case.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  But Mr. Groome, you can't bolster your witness'

23    credit in that way.  If there had been a suggestion of recent invention,

24    you would get it in as a prior statement, but how else can it be?

25            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm not seeking --

Page 2395

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  It's not corroboration or anything like that.  He's

 2    given his evidence.

 3            MR. GROOME:  I'm not seeking to bolster any --

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  You said you were putting it on the basis that it was

 5    relevant to credit.

 6            MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  It's before the Court as that now,

 7    so the Court -- the only proper use the Court can make of --

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  It's not before the Court at all.  I'm sorry.

 9            MR. GROOME:  Well, the statements that are regarding it are before

10    the Court.  The only proper use the Court can make of it at this stage is

11    to assess the credibility of this witness.  My argument to the Court, or

12    my application, is that given that it is a statement signed by this

13    witness containing an affirmation that what's contained in here is the

14    truth, and given the importance of the issue that it speaks to, I make an

15    application to tender it into evidence so that the Court can not only use

16    it to assess his credibility but also use it substantively to reach a

17    decision on this important issue in the case.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  I don't see how that gets it into evidence.  I'm

19    sorry.  What principle gets it into evidence?  There's some independent

20    evidence of what he is saying?  Because he has told us what he has said.

21    He's said a number of different things.  We have to assess which one of

22    them is correct.

23            MR. GROOME:  Well, then maybe there's a difference in law between

24    my jurisdiction and the Court's.  My understanding is that the statements

25    made regarding this statement cannot be used substantively by the Court at

Page 2396

 1    this point.  The only way the Court could do that is if it were to admit

 2    this statement as a piece of evidence in and of itself, and I believe

 3    there is a foundation for doing so, given that it's a sworn statement.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  I have only been here for three years, but I have

 5    never seen it done.  Have you got any instance where it has gone in

 6    independently of his oral evidence?

 7            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I do not have any jurisprudence from the

 8    Tribunal itself.  I do have a treatise on evidence, and I would be willing

 9    to raise the point or read the portion of the treatise on evidence, the

10    legal principle upon which I'm relying.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  We have allowed statements to be used because they

12    are hearsay, but only because they are hearsay that we think they have

13    some value.  A statement, a written statement such as that, is hearsay.

14    It doesn't become anything better than that.  Now, we have allowed hearsay

15    evidence in because we are not restricted, as the common law would

16    restrict us, to direct evidence.  But I don't see that a hearsay statement

17    as to what the witness said some time ago is going to assist us in

18    determining which of the different versions he has given here is the

19    correct one.

20            MR. GROOME:  It would be my position, Your Honour, that it is not

21    hearsay, because the witness is here in Court and can presently adopt it

22    or has made an adoption of it in Court as something that was said.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  But you have no opportunity to have him do that.  You

24    didn't do it in cross-examination, as you could have.

25            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour is correct in saying that.

Page 2397

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  I can see no procedural basis upon which you can get

 2    it in, and in any event, I don't see that it's not already in evidence.

 3    He agreed with Ms. Bauer that it was in his statement.  Whether it was the

 4    same statement, I don't know.

 5            MR. GROOME:  Okay, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, thank you, sir, for coming here to give

 7    evidence and for the evidence which you gave.  You are now free to leave.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should like to thank the President

 9    of the Trial Chamber for having listened to my testimony, by which I

10    stand.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you very much.

12            Mr. Domazet, while the next witness is coming, we were given this

13    morning the document which was filed yesterday about this expert on

14    X-rays.  You haven't filed with the statement -- with the document the

15    statement that he has made.

16                          [The witness withdrew]

17            JUDGE HUNT:  And as you yourself was quick to point out in

18    relation to Dr. de Grave's statement, you are entitled to have it 21 days

19    in advance of his giving evidence, so just as the Prosecution is entitled

20    to have this doctor's statement.

21            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, I know, Your Honour, but this

22    witness, expert witness would have to take a look at the evidence in the

23    Tribunal, which the Prosecution has, before stating his views.  And I

24    tabled a request to the Registry to that effect to allow him to obtain a

25    visa for him to be able to come to the Tribunal.  Perhaps he would need to

Page 2398

 1    have a talk with Mr. Vasiljevic as well and to take a look at all the

 2    documents -- or, rather, the X-rays that are relevant in the case.

 3            I see no other way of him being able to do this except if the

 4    X-rays to be -- were to be taken to Belgrade, but ...

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  There's something to that, but Mr. Domazet, what I'm

 6    concerned about is that this has always been an issue.  It's been an issue

 7    ever since the case began.  The Prosecution sought your client's consent

 8    to have him X-rayed sometime, as I recall, at the end of last year.  Now,

 9    it's a bit dismaying that you are leaving all of the preparation of your

10    case on this matter until now.

11            I drew your attention to the fact that you had not put any expert

12    opinion to Dr. de Grave when he gave his evidence, and you explained it

13    was because you hadn't yet received a report.  But at some stage, the

14    Prosecution has to know what it is he's going to say, because as a result

15    of what you did not do when Dr. de Grave gave his evidence, the

16    Prosecution obviously has a case in reply, and it can call an expert to

17    deal with your expert's evidence.  Hopefully, though, the Prosecution will

18    be in a position to be able to cross-examine your doctor based upon the

19    report which it obtains from its expert as a result of the report that you

20    have to produce.

21            This is why experts' reports are specially dealt with in the

22    Rules.  The time can be shortened, and indeed I would hope that the

23    Prosecution would cooperate in doing so.  But nevertheless, before your

24    doctor is called, they have to have the opportunity of obtaining advice

25    from their expert as to what he says so they can properly cross-examine

Page 2399

 1    him, and then they will be in a position to call their expert in

 2    response.

 3            So you better work out how this is going to be done.  If your

 4    doctor is going to come here and look at the X-rays and see your client

 5    before he gives his evidence, he may have to go home again before he gives

 6    his evidence.  That's not the end of it.  It's a very important issue in

 7    this case.  I'm just, as I say, dismayed that it's all being left so

 8    late.

 9            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, two days ago I received

10    another report from Mr. Groome.  It is another expert opinion.  So that

11    that finding, too, seems to me to be considerably different than the

12    previous one, and that too has to be looked at by my expert.

13            So I will do my best.  I will really endeavour to do what I have

14    to do quickly.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, may I suggest this: that you and Mr. Groome

16    talk about some procedure that you can have.  It may be that the two

17    doctors can discuss the matter.  I don't know.  But we have not got an

18    unlimited period in which to hear this case.  We are all involved in

19    matters that are meant to be beginning at the commencement of next year,

20    and it was upon the agreed estimate, with some degree of addition added to

21    it, that we undertook this case.

22            Now, there's going to have to be something done between you and

23    Mr. Groome as to how this evidence is going to be given and how the issue

24    is going to be determined.  But we cannot sit back and wait 21 days after

25    your doctor has seen your client, had a look at the X-rays, had a look at

Page 2400

 1    this other report, which we haven't seen, and then bring him back and then

 2    call another doctor obviously in reply.

 3            So that's why I am raising it now, that you and Mr. Groome,

 4    between you, in accordance with the cooperation that you've so far been

 5    able to afford each other, can think of something, some way of getting

 6    around this.  It is, as I have said, a very important issue in the case,

 7    and it's something which we cannot deny either party the opportunity of

 8    dealing with it properly and fairly so far as other party is involved.

 9            So during some adjournment, I urge you and Mr. Groome to come to

10    some agreement or some proposal perhaps for us to consider so that the

11    evidence can be given by both sides properly but after fair warning to the

12    other party.

13            Now, is the witness ready now?  Right.  Let's have the witness,

14    please.

15                          [The witness entered court]

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, sir, would you please make the solemn

17    declaration in the terms of the document which the court usher is showing

18    you.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Sit down, please, sir.

22                          WITNESS:  DRAGISA LINDO

23                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Your witness, Mr. Domazet.

25            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes.  Thank you.

Page 2401

 1                          Examined by Mr. Domazet:

 2       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3       A.   Good morning.

 4       Q.   Would you be kind enough to introduce yourself?  Tell us your

 5    name, please.

 6       A.   My name is Dragisa.

 7       Q.   Will you please repeat your name and approach the microphone so

 8    that the interpreters can hear you properly?

 9       A.   Lindo, Dragisa.  Dragisa Lindo.

10       Q.   When were you born, Mr. Lindo?

11       A.   On the 8th of August, 1954.

12       Q.   Where do you live, Mr. Lindo?

13            THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry.  Could the witness repeat that

14    answer.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  Sir, you will have to speak up.  It's very hard for

16    the interpreters to hear you, and if they don't hear you, we don't hear

17    you.  So speak up, please.

18            Now, where do you live, Mr. Lindo?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Trsevine.

20            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Trsevine, I assume is a village.  Is it close to Visegrad?

22       A.   Trsevine is a village close to Visegrad, yes.

23       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Lindo, in 1992 were you also living there?

24       A.   Yes, I was.

25       Q.   Where were you working at the time?

Page 2402

 1       A.   You mean the company or what?  Varda, is that what you mean?

 2       Q.   No, before your mobilisation.

 3       A.   In the furniture factory Varda.

 4       Q.   Let me ask you something about this period, that is, 1992.  Do you

 5    remember at the time that the Uzice Corps was in town?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Do you remember the period after the Uzice Corps left?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Can you tell me regarding that period, after the departure of the

10    Uzice Corps, where were you and what were you doing?

11       A.   I was mobilised by the Territorial Defence.  They established a

12    kitchen in Prelovo, and I was there as an assistant worker.  I would clean

13    up and look after the hygiene.

14       Q.   So you were working in this kitchen in Prelovo mostly doing

15    maintenance of cleanliness; is that right?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Do you remember any of the people who were working in that same

18    kitchen doing the same or similar work as you?

19       A.   Yes.  There was the main cook, Vaso Vojinovic, his assistant

20  Mitrasin, and this [redacted].  I can't recall his name.  There was a health

21    inspector who was there, Mitar Vasiljevic.

22       Q.   You mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Did you know him from before or did you meet him then?

25       A.   We know each other from childhood.  He went to school passing by

Page 2403

 1    my house.  We went to the same school, and that's how we know each other.

 2    He completed his schooling as a waiter and went to Visegrad.  So -- shall

 3    I continue?

 4       Q.   Just a minute, please.  So, Mr. Lindo, this Mitar Vasiljevic who

 5    is  from Djurevici and who you say you know well was with you and with

 6    these other people, when the Uzice Corps had left, in Prelovo and worked

 7    there.  Was he, too, mobilised like you?

 8       A.   Yes.  He was mobilised in Prelovo.  He received a red armband.  He

 9    took care of cleanliness and hygiene and the distribution of food and

10    things like that.

11       Q.   Was he also responsible for supplies?  Did he go and fetch

12    victuals and other things that he needed?

13       A.   Yes.  We had a small van which was mobilised by the TO, and it was

14    used exclusively for getting food.  What exactly were the foodstuffs, I

15    don't know in detail.

16       Q.   So if I understood you correctly, in addition to hygiene and

17    cleanliness, he also went to fetch foodstuffs in this van which you had

18    and which, as you said, had been taken by the Territorial Defence,

19    probably from somebody, for their needs.

20       A.   It belonged to the Sumarstvo of which Vojinovic was in charge, the

21    forestry company.  I can't remember the first name now.  Obren.

22       Q.   So this van was driven by Obren Vojinovic; is that right?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   So this van, which was really the property of Sumarstvo, this was

25    probably a company of which Obren -- and Obren Vojinovic drove it, and

Page 2404

 1    they used this van to get supplies?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   So where did they go?  Do you know?

 4       A.   From Prelovo to Visegrad.  I don't really know exactly where they

 5    went.  Where the front lines were.  That was what it was intended for.

 6       Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Lindo, whether Mitar Vasiljevic wore a

 7    uniform, and if he did, could you explain what kind?

 8       A.   Mitar Vasiljevic was issued an olive-green uniform such as the JNA

 9    used to wear, and most of us were wearing that uniform.

10       Q.   Is that the uniform that the reservists of the then JNA held at

11    home?  They were issued with them and they kept them at home; is that

12    right?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Apart from what you told us regarding the duties of Mitar

15    Vasiljevic, do you know whether he took part in the distribution of food?

16       A.   From time to time he would go, when these others were not

17    available.  This was according to a schedule, and I really can't remember.

18       Q.   You personally, did you go to carry food to the front line?

19       A.   I did not.

20       Q.   So you could not have gone with him on such an occasion?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Do you perhaps remember, Mr. Lindo, timewise, how long was Mitar

23    Vasiljevic with you?

24       A.   He was there for about 10 to 15 days in this kitchen.  After that,

25    when the kitchen was to be moved closer, we went to the village of Blace,

Page 2405

 1    with the kitchen.

 2       Q.   At the time when you went with the kitchen towards Blace, was

 3    Mitar Vasiljevic with you?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   And do you know how it came about that he was no longer in

 6    Prelovo?

 7       A.   Simply, we left.  We went on working there.  So I don't know.

 8    Whether he was mobilised to some other place, I don't know.  I heard

 9    afterwards that Mitar had broken a leg.

10       Q.   If I understood what you said correctly, Mr. Lindo, Mitar

11    Vasiljevic stopped coming to Prelovo one day and you didn't know why.

12       A.   That's right.

13       Q.   And it seems to me that it's possible that he may have been

14    reassigned to some other position but that you don't know about that.  Is

15    that right?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Do you recall whether he was issued any weapon?

18       A.   I don't remember.  He was naturally issued with a weapon.  Whether

19    it was an automatic, semi-automatic weapon, I really don't remember.  But

20    he rarely carried it, because there was no fire there.  How can I put it?

21    I didn't pay attention what kind of weapon he was carrying, whether it was

22    automatic or semi-automatic.  I don't remember.

23       Q.   So if I understood you correctly, you know for certain that he was

24    issued a weapon but you cannot now recall what type of weapon it was.

25       A.   That's right.

Page 2406

 1       Q.   During those 10 to 15 days, as you said, that you remembered that

 2    he was with you, did you have any kind of problems with him or did anyone

 3    else that was with you have any problems with him, provoked by Mitar

 4    Vasiljevic?

 5       A.   No.  I said we know each other since childhood.  It's a good

 6    family.

 7       Q.   Did you hear later what happened to him?

 8       A.   As I said, I heard he had broken a leg.  And then later I met him

 9    in town.  I saw him with crutches.  He had broken a leg.  I don't know how

10    much later this was.

11            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

12    questions, Your Honour.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  Cross-examination?  Mr. Groome.

14            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                          Cross-examined by Mr. Groome:

16       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lindo.  I'm standing to your right, and my

17    name is Mr. Groome and I'm representing the Prosecution in this case.  I'm

18    going to ask you a number of questions regarding some of the things you've

19    testified about here this morning.

20            From what you've told us, it seems that you were born the same

21    year as Mr. Vasiljevic; is that correct?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And would it be correct to say that you essentially grew up

24    together with Mr. Vasiljevic?

25       A.   No.  It's almost 15 kilometres away, but he had to go to school on

Page 2407

 1    foot - there was no bus - and he would pass by my house.

 2       Q.   Did you and Mr. Vasiljevic attend the same school?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   As children growing up, would you and Mr. Vasiljevic ever play

 5    together?

 6       A.   For the first four years, yes.  I left school, but he went on to

 7    catering school.

 8       Q.   Let me ask you if you can maybe help us understand a little bit

 9    about Mr. Vasiljevic as a boy.  Are you aware of any particular hobbies

10    that he had, perhaps sports, music, art, or horseback riding?  Are you

11    aware of any particular interest he had in hobbies?

12       A.   No.  No.

13       Q.   The town of Visegrad, did you know the names of or did you know

14    who the Muslim imams were in that town?

15       A.   There are a lot of them.  This was nine years ago.  I never

16    thought about these things.  I can't remember.  My friends -- I can't even

17    remember the names of my friends now.

18       Q.   I realise that it was a long time ago, Mr. Lindo, but if you could

19    assist us and tell us approximately how many different imams would you say

20    there were in Visegrad in the year 1992?

21            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't quite catch the word

22    you're using.

23            MR. GROOME:  I'll just repeat the question.

24       Q.   Mr. Lindo, I realise that it was a long time ago, but I'm asking

25    you if you can assist us by telling us approximately how many imams, or

Page 2408

 1    Muslim holy men, lived in the town of Visegrad in 1992.  Just an

 2    approximation will do.

 3       A.   I really can't remember.

 4       Q.   Were you familiar with any of them?

 5       A.   Among them?  What do you mean?  I don't know.

 6       Q.   Let me ask you this:  Would you say that there were more than two

 7    Muslim holy men, or imams, in the town of Visegrad in 1992?

 8       A.   You mean the number of them?  I'm not able to tell you.  I don't

 9    know.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet, if you want to object, please say so.

11            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe I can be of

12    assistance.  The interpreter is using the word "imam."  I would prefer the

13    use of the word "hodza."  Maybe the witness will understand it better.  It

14    is one and the same, "hodza" and "imam."  The Serb population uses this

15    term more often, and it's quite possible that the witness didn't

16    understand the word "imam."  If you ask him how many hodzas there were,

17    maybe he will find it easier to answer your question.  That is all I

18    wanted to say.  The same applied to Mr. Vasiljevic when that question was

19    put to him.  So if you could use the term "hodza," please.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  Does that include the term "religious holy man,"

21    "hodza"?

22            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely so, Your Honour.  A

23    hodza is another word for the imam, but it is more frequently in use among

24    Serbs.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, Mr. Groome, I suggest you take up Mr. Domazet's

Page 2409

 1    very helpful suggestion.

 2            MR. GROOME:  I will, Your Honour.  I thank Mr. Domazet for that.

 3       Q.   I apologise, Mr. Lindo.  That is what I'm asking you about:

 4    hodza.  Let me repeat the question.  Are you able to approximate for us

 5    about how many hodzas were in Visegrad in 1992?

 6       A.   I know of one only.

 7       Q.   When I misused the word, or I used the other word, "imam," you

 8    said there were a lot of them.  So were you thinking of something other

 9    than hodza when you said that there are a lot of them?

10       A.   I don't know what you meant.  I thought you were referring to

11    Muslims as a whole, in general, but I never heard of this word "imam."

12    We use the word "hodza."

13       Q.   Now, the hodza that you know, did he own a horse?

14       A.   I can't remember now whether he had one.  I really won't know.

15       Q.   I want to ask you a little bit about your work in Prelovo.  How

16    long did you work in the Prelovo area?

17       A.   About all in all, from the time we were mobilised -- let me see.

18    How long was it until the Uzice Corps left?  After the Uzice Corps, it

19    was.  I can't remember.  I didn't keep a diary.

20       Q.   Are you able to approximate for us how long Mr. Vasiljevic worked

21    in Prelovo?

22       A.   I said about 10 to 15 days.

23       Q.   Now, you told us that Mr. Vasiljevic was -- I believe you said a

24    hygiene inspector.  Could you please tell us specifically what his

25    function was?  What would he do on a day-to-day basis?

Page 2410












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 2411

 1       A.   As I was saying, he would give us orders, the lower-level people.

 2    We were assistant workers.  He was a kind of inspector.  That's how I

 3    understood his position to be, because he gave us orders how to maintain

 4    hygiene, to make sure the food was clean, to wash up and clean up and that

 5    sort of thing.

 6       Q.   And if somebody did not show up for work, would he be responsible

 7    for shifting people in their responsibilities to cover the

 8    responsibilities of the person who did not come to work that day?

 9       A.   I didn't notice anything.  People came regularly.

10       Q.   Let me ask you this:  If perhaps one day you were sick, whose

11    responsibility would it be to find somebody to actually cook the food, to

12    do your job?

13       A.   Cook Vaso Vojinovic.  He was the cook.

14       Q.   Okay.  I'm sorry.  If Vaso Vojinovic was sick one day, whose

15    responsibility would it be to find somebody to replace him for that day?

16    Would it be Mitar Vasiljevic's?

17       A.   As he was a waiter he would do those things, but whether Vaso

18    Vojinovic didn't appear for work one day, I don't know.  It could happen,

19    but I don't remember.

20       Q.   Let me ask you the question a different way.  You said that from

21    time to time, Mitar Vasiljevic would actually distribute the food,

22    something different than his ordinary duties.  What I'm asking is:  Who

23    would make the decision that on a particular day, Mitar Vasiljevic should

24    not be in charge of hygiene but should go and distribute the food?  Who

25    would make that decision?

Page 2412

 1       A.   I don't remember, because I didn't distribute the food.  So I was

 2    never close by to see people coming and going.  I know that he would go to

 3    fetch food in the van.  Now, whether they agreed amongst themselves who

 4    would do what, I really don't remember.

 5       Q.   During the entire time that -- well, I'm sorry.  I withdraw the

 6    question.

 7            You said that Mitar Vasiljevic worked there between 10 and 15 days

 8    and that from time to time he would distribute the food.  Can you

 9    approximate for us how many times he actually went and distributed the

10    food?  Would it be more or less than two?

11       A.   The food was taken once a day, because for the evening it was

12    dry-packed food so as to avoid travelling in the dark.  So I really can't

13    remember who went when.  This school where we were working is a big

14    building.  I had my own premises where I was working, so I really can't

15    remember.

16       Q.   Was it the regular practice of your unit to distribute dry-packed

17    food for the evening meal so that nobody would have to distribute food in

18    the night?  Is that correct?

19       A.   Yes.  I suppose that was how it was.  I don't remember any more

20    now.

21       Q.   I want to ask you a hypothetical question.  In your opinion, had

22    Mr. Vasiljevic expressed a fear of distributing the food because of where

23    the location was?  Is it your opinion that he would have been forced,

24    nonetheless, to go distribute that food?

25       A.   I had nothing to do with that, as I said.  I don't remember these

Page 2413

 1    things.

 2       Q.   Let me ask you this, Mr. Lindo:  During the 10 days or 10 or 15

 3    days Mr. Vasiljevic was there, did you ever see anybody order him to go

 4    and distribute food against his will or against his reservation?  Did you

 5    ever see that?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   The place where you worked, where the food was prepared, did you

 8    yourself feel that under threat there?  Did you feel that you could be

 9    harmed because of the nearby conflict, or did you feel safe in that place,

10    in that school?

11       A.   We didn't feel too safe.

12       Q.   During the time that you worked in this -- on these duties, was

13    there ever an incident where somebody either in the school where you were

14    cooking or somebody nearby was injured?

15       A.   I don't remember that happening.

16       Q.   Now, in your position, were you required to wear any special

17    clothes?

18       A.   It depended what people had on them.  I had an SMB JNA uniform as

19    it arrived, this other uniform.

20       Q.   And were you required to wear that SMB uniform or that's simply

21    what you chose to wear?

22       A.   We had it ourselves.

23       Q.   Now, given that you've told us that the evening meal was provided

24    as a dry-packed food, what time would you typically serve the midday meal

25    and this evening meal?  What time of the day would that be done?

Page 2414

 1       A.   I don't remember that, because this -- the distribution depended

 2    when they got to it.  We were cooking.  Those of us who was in the

 3    kitchen, we didn't eat dry-packed food.  I said that food was packed for

 4    those further away.

 5       Q.   Well, what time was the kitchen expected to have finished the

 6    preparation of the midday meal?  What time was that supposed to have been

 7    completed by?

 8       A.   Well, it depended.  If you had enough wood and enough people to

 9    serve, then it was quick, but otherwise, I can't remember.  I never paid

10    attention to that kind of thing.

11       Q.   Am I correct in thinking that the food that you were preparing was

12    for soldiers that were fighting on the front line?  Is that correct?

13       A.   Well, I didn't do the cooking.  I was just one of the workers,

14    assistants.  So there was the cook, there were the other people, and I was

15    in charge of the cleaning or anything that Mr. Vasiljevic told me to do,

16    the hygiene, cleaning.

17       Q.   Let me ask you again.  The food that you were preparing though,

18    the work of this team was to feed soldiers fighting on the front line;

19    correct?  You need to speak up so that the interpreters can hear you.

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And would I be right in thinking that the commander of these

22    soldiers expected his men to be fed at a specific time?  Is that not

23    correct?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Are you able to tell us what that time was?  An approximation is

Page 2415

 1    fine.  Is it noon, is it 4.00 in the afternoon, is it 6.00 in the

 2    evening?  Can you give us an approximation of when those soldiers were to

 3    be fed?

 4       A.   Well, it depended.  It didn't have to be at a set time.  I don't

 5    know.  I never had to -- I can't tell you.  I can't give you the exact

 6    time.  I don't really remember.  I don't know.  It wasn't my ...

 7       Q.   How long did you work there, sir?

 8       A.   Well, the time I was there, when that kitchen started.  Whether it

 9    was after the Uzice Corps, I don't remember.  We were there in Prelovo.

10    We went to Blace.  How much time passed, I don't know.  Perhaps more than

11    15 days.  I don't know.  I don't remember.

12       Q.   When you finished your work for the day, how would you get back to

13    your home?

14       A.   I lived nearby, and he would go.  Sometimes he had the kombi van

15    belonging to the Territorial Defence.  Well, he did what he could.  He

16    fended the best he could.  I didn't actually follow all that.  I don't

17    remember.

18       Q.   Who is the "he" that you're referring to now?

19       A.   Mr. Vasiljevic.  He lived in Visegrad.  So he would go up to his

20    home and come back in the van, or when Obren would go to fetch the

21    foodstuffs or if he had to spend the night or the van had to spend the

22    night from time to time.  I don't know.  I can't remember.

23       Q.   Who would -- would Mr. Vasiljevic sometimes drive down to Visegrad

24    in this kombi van by himself?

25       A.   He's not a driver.  So nobody can take the vehicle.  He's not a

Page 2416

 1    driver.  He would have to be issued a vehicle.  He's not a driver.

 2       Q.   So you said -- when you said "he had the van," meaning

 3    Mr. Vasiljevic had the van, did you mean that he had responsibility for

 4    the van and could direct the driver to go wherever he needed to go?  Is

 5    that what you mean?

 6       A.   No.  No.  No, no.  I said for the transport, for transport to

 7    Visegrad.  He went with Obren Vojinovic.  And whether he went -- whether

 8    he ask an auto stop or stopped somebody along the way or -- he didn't have

 9    his own van.  He wasn't a driver either.

10       Q.   You said -- you told us that you live close by to Prelovo.  Did

11    you ever stay overnight in the school?

12       A.   No.  I'm from Trsevine.  It's one village next to the other.

13       Q.   And were you aware that Mitar Vasiljevic ever stayed overnight in

14    Prelovo?

15       A.   I don't remember.

16       Q.   Now, you've told us that one of the people who worked on this crew

17    was a person by the name of [redacted] and that you don't know his first

18    name; is that correct?

19   A.   Yes, [redacted].  Whether [redacted]or -- I couldn't put him down on a

20    list.  I don't know the first name.  It says [redacted]  Whether it was

21 [redacted] or something, I don't know.  So I couldn't mention it, because I

22    don't now know his first name.  So I couldn't state his -- I couldn't say

23    Obren's name either a moment ago.

24       Q.   Could I ask you this:  Is the reason you don't know his first name

25    is because on this crew, people referred to him as [redacted]; that's what

Page 2417

 1    they called him when they needed to speak to him?

 2 A. [redacted]was his nickname. [redacted].  I couldn't give you his name, but

 3 [redacted]was his nickname.  And [redacted], well, so that was without his

 4   first name, but his nickname was [redacted].  That's why I said it.

 5       Q.   Can you describe his physical appearance for us?

 6       A.   Well, like me, a man like me, my sort of height.  He had a

 7    moustache, like I do.

 8       Q.   Could you tell us what your height is?

 9       A.   Well, is it 68?  How should I know?  I never measured myself.  I

10    really don't know.

11       Q.   And was he your approximate build or your approximate weight?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And can you tell us approximately how much you weigh?

14       A.   Seventy-three.

15       Q.   And can you tell us what was his approximate age?

16       A.   I don't remember.  He was from quite another village.  He was

17    there with me, but we never went into those things, about years and so

18    on.  And he lives abroad anyway now.  I don't know for how long he's been

19    living there.

20       Q.   Was he living abroad before his work in Prelovo, or do you know?

21       A.   No.  Yes, he did, abroad, and then during those - how shall I say

22    this - mobilisation, during the mobilisation.

23       Q.   So he was from outside the Visegrad but returned when the conflict

24    began and local Serbs were mobilised; is that correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2418

 1       Q.   Now, would I be correct in assuming that Mitar Vasiljevic also

 2  would have known this [redacted]?  It sounds like it was a relatively small

 3    crew.  Would I be correct in assuming that?

 4       A.   Well, whether he's abroad or not, I wasn't with him much, and I

 5    can't even remember his first name now.  Now, whether somebody knows him

 6    or doesn't know him, they should have known, but I don't know.

 7       Q.   What I'm asking you is:  The 10 to 15 days that Mitar Vasiljevic

 8    was there, at that time was [redacted] also working on this crew?

 9       A. [redacted]?

10       Q.   Yes.  Were [redacted] and Mitar Vasiljevic working in this crew at

11    the same time?

12       A. [redacted] was there in the kitchen, but who did what, what

13    responsibilities, I don't know.

14       Q.   Okay.  I'm not asking you what their responsibilities were.  I'm

15    simply asking you:  At the time that Mitar Vasiljevic was the hygiene

16    inspector, was [redacted] working in the kitchen?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And is there any reason that you can think of why Mitar

19    Vasiljevic, if asked to name the people he worked with, would not mention

20  the name [redacted] as one of those people?  Is there any reason that you're

21    aware of?

22       A.   Well, I don't remember the name either, so maybe -- that's what

23    I'm saying.  It was a long time ago.  I don't remember.  Maybe he didn't

24    remember either.

25       Q.   Perhaps.  I want to ask you about the weapon now.  You have told

Page 2419

 1    us about the weapon that you were issued.  Are you able to say that

 2    everyone on the crew was issued a weapon?  Is that true?

 3       A.   Well, we were mobilised, so regardless of who we were and what we

 4    were, we all did, yes.  Now, what it was, I don't remember.  I know that I

 5    had a semi-automatic.

 6       Q.   Now, were you forced to carry a weapon?  In other words, if you

 7    felt that you did not need your weapon on a particular day, could you be

 8    punished for not having it with you?

 9       A.   It was a matter of luck.  The guards were always there.

10       Q.   If you showed up for work one day and you had left your weapon at

11    home, would those guards have punished you or reported you to the military

12    police?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   So in other words, if for some reason you decided not to carry

15    your weapon on a particular day, you could perhaps lock it in your house

16    or some other safe place and not worry about being punished for not having

17    your weapon; is that correct?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   It's correct that you would not be punished if you did not have

20    your weapon; is that correct?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Now, again if you could assist us with your experience.  If

23    somebody was caught misusing a weapon - let's say they were very careless

24    with it or perhaps had fired it while being drunk - would the superiors in

25    the Territorial Defence, would they take the weapon away from that person?

Page 2420

 1       A.   Well, it didn't happen to me.  I don't remember.

 2       Q.   Are you aware of any instance where a superior officer confiscated

 3    or ordered the confiscation of a weapon from one of the TO members?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Now, can you tell us:  When did the kitchen move from this school

 6    in Prelovo to -- I believe the village is Blace?  When did that happen?

 7       A.   I keep telling you that I really don't remember.  It's nine years

 8    ago.  Had I known that I would need that -- I never knew that I would

 9    have -- I would have noted it down, had I known that I would need it.

10       Q.   Can you tell us what month it occurred in?

11       A.   Well, when you ask me that, let me tell you, I don't even know

12    when the war started or when the war ended.  I don't really know.  I don't

13    remember.

14       Q.   Let me see if perhaps I can assist you.  Are you familiar with the

15    Orthodox holiday of the Holy Trinity?

16       A.   I don't remember.

17       Q.   The question is:  Do you know that holiday?  Is that a holiday

18    that --

19       A.   Yes, I know of it, but I don't know what month it falls in.

20       Q.   Can you tell us whether the kitchen moved to Blace before the

21    Feast of the Holy Trinity or after the Feast of the Holy Trinity?  Are you

22    able to tell us that?

23       A.   I keep telling you:  I really don't remember.  I don't know what

24    month.  Whether it was before, whether it was after, I really don't know.

25    If I knew, I would say, but I don't know, and that's it.  I don't

Page 2421

 1    remember, so don't please keep asking me.

 2       Q.   I apologise.  I'm just going to ask you a couple more questions

 3    regarding the time.  You're not able to tell us, in other words, with any

 4    type of precision, when Mitar Vasiljevic left Prelovo; is that correct?

 5       A.   He was there a very short period, 10 to 15 days.  He left, but

 6    what time and when that was, please don't insist.  If I knew the dates, I

 7    would tell you straight away, right here and now.

 8       Q.   Now, I see from your statement you've said that a few days after

 9    he left, you heard that he had broken his leg.  Is that correct?

10       A.   Several days.  Now, whether it was a month, I don't know.  It

11    might have been a month.  Whether it was a month or two.  I said a few

12    days.  I meant some time later I heard that Mitar Vasiljevic had broken

13    his leg.  I was still doing my work and I had a lot of farming to do, and

14    I didn't pay attention to any of that.

15       Q.   So but it could have been as much as one month or two months after

16    he left that you heard that he had broken his leg; is that correct?

17       A.   Well, that's what I'm saying, but I don't remember anything.  I

18    can't tell you face to face even if it was half a year.  I don't know.  I

19    don't remember.  I never said a date.  I don't know.

20       Q.   And at the time that you heard that Mr. Vasiljevic had broken his

21    leg, would it be fair to say that you learnt that it happened -- that he

22    broke his leg soon after he had the accident?  It wasn't a long time, but

23    a short period of time; is that correct?

24       A.   I said after a longer time, when he came back from hospital, I saw

25    him in Visegrad with crutches and a plaster cast on his leg.  Now, how

Page 2422

 1    much time went by, I really don't know.  I can't tell you a date.  I don't

 2    know.

 3       Q.   Is that the first time that you learnt that he broke his leg?

 4       A.   I said a moment ago that I heard, a few days afterwards - I can't

 5    say - 10, 15.  I didn't know how much time had gone by, but one or two

 6    months later I heard; I heard he had been in hospital and came to

 7    Visegrad, and I saw him in Visegrad and he was wearing a plaster cast and

 8    walking with crutches.

 9       Q.   Did you hear how he broke his leg?

10       A.   Well, I heard what I heard, that he fell off a horse.

11       Q.   And did you know whose horse it was?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   And can you tell us how it was that Mitar Vasiljevic came to be

14    riding that horse?

15       A.   I really don't remember any of that, what happened.  He was

16    immobilised.  That's what I had heard.  Now, what actually happened, I

17    don't know.  I don't remember.  I wasn't informed about it.  I also broke

18    my leg.  I know what it's like when you break a leg, because I myself have

19    broken a leg.

20       Q.   Well, am I correct in thinking that when you first saw him after

21    he came out of the hospital and you saw him with the cast, that one of the

22    first questions you probably asked him was:  "Mitar, how did you break

23    your leg?"  Am I correct in thinking that?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   So when you saw Mitar that day on crutches and with the cast, you

Page 2423

 1    never asked him how he broke his leg?  Is that what your testimony is?

 2       A.   No, I didn't.

 3       Q.   So your testimony is that you did not ask him about how he broke

 4    the leg; correct?

 5       A.   No.  No.

 6       Q.   I apologise --

 7       A.   I didn't.

 8       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, also in your statement, you said that you

 9    know Mr. Vasiljevic well and that you asserted that he was not the member

10    of any paramilitary unit; is that correct?

11            THE INTERPRETER:  The witness says, "No.  No."

12            MR. GROOME:

13       Q.   So you do not believe that he was the member of any paramilitary

14    unit?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Did you know a person by the name of Dragan Tomic?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   I want to ask you about Pionirska Street.  As you must know at

19    this stage, this trial involves a house burning that occurred on Pionirska

20    Street with a great loss of life.  When did you first become aware of what

21    happened on Pionirska Street?

22       A.   I really don't remember where the house burnt, what street.  I

23    tell you again, I really don't remember anything, because there was

24    burning all over the place.  So ...

25       Q.   When you say "burning all over the place," are you referring to

Page 2424

 1    the town of Visegrad itself or the villages surrounding Visegrad or

 2    perhaps both?

 3       A.   That's right.

 4       Q.   So you mean the villages surrounding Visegrad and the town itself;

 5    correct?  You need to answer --

 6       A.   Yes.  That's why I don't remember when that actually was.

 7       Q.   Now, I'm not asking you to tell us where it was or any details

 8    about it, but I'm asking you to recall for us the first time you heard

 9    that this occurred.  When was the first time that you learnt of this

10    event?

11       A.   I don't remember.  I really don't remember.  Well, here I am, but

12    I don't remember.

13       Q.   Well, can I ask you, did you learn about it in 1992 or did you

14    learn about it at some point after Mr. Vasiljevic had been arrested and

15    charged with it?

16       A.   I don't remember that either.

17       Q.   Did you learn about it before Mr. Vasiljevic had been arrested?

18       A.   I told you a moment ago that I don't remember when that Pionirska

19    Street was or what house it was.  I had my work to do, and I didn't go

20    into town.  I never went into town.  I just said that when I went to town

21    on business after a longer amount of time, I saw that Mr. Vasiljevic had

22    broken his leg.  Now, when that was, when that all happened, I don't know.

23       Q.   Mr. Lindo, I'm not asking you when the fire was.  I'm just simply

24    asking you when was the first time somebody told you that there had been

25    this fire on Pionirska Street?  Was it before Mr. Vasiljevic was

Page 2425

 1    arrested?

 2       A.   I told you a moment ago I don't remember one, and I don't remember

 3    the other.  I said I don't remember any of that.  Whether it was May or

 4    December or -- I don't know.  I don't remember any of the dates.  I'm just

 5    talking off the top of my hat now.

 6       Q.   I apologise for keep insisting on this --

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, Mr. Groome, really.  He's told you twice quite

 8    specifically he does not remember.  Now, can you challenge that rather

 9    than just asking the question again?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you repeat, please?

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Don't you worry, sir.

12            There has to be a limit to repetitive cross-examination.

13            MR. GROOME:  Just that the answer is somewhat non-responsive, Your

14    Honour, and --

15            JUDGE HUNT:  It is directly responsive.  You have asked him:

16                     Q.   ... did you learn about it in 1992, or did you learn

17                          about it at some point after Mr. Vasiljevic had been

18                          arrested and charged with it?

19                     A.   I don't remember that either.

20            Now, that's clearly responsive and it's an answer to your

21    question.  Then you asked him again at lines 8 to 10 on the page, and he

22    said:

23                     A.   I told you a moment ago I don't remember one and I

24                          don't remember the other ... I don't remember any of

25                          that.

Page 2426

 1            Now, that clearly is a responsive answer to your question, and

 2    there comes a time when you really can't pursue in asking him the same

 3    question again and again.  You can cross-examine him as to his answer that

 4    he does not remember, but you don't do so by asking the question again.

 5            Well, we'll resume now at 2.30.

 6                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

 7                          --- On resuming at 2.28 p.m.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Groome.

 9            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just before I begin, just to

10    inform the Court, I have spoken to Mr. Domazet regarding the X-ray expert

11    and arrangements to have copies made so that they can be sent to Belgrade

12    hopefully within the next few days for that expert to see them.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  We're very grateful.  Whatever you can do to make

14    sure we don't have a long wait to get your case in reply.

15            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  By the way, have you filed the other report that you

17    have given Mr. Domazet or is it not for our sight yet?

18            MR. GROOME:  Well, Your Honour -- I believe there's no

19    translation, is that correct?

20            THE INTERPRETER:  The transcript, Mr. Groome.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, actually the transcript is missing some of what

22    you said, too.  However, what you said was that you have made arrangements

23    with Mr. Domazet to provide copies of the X-rays and reports.

24            MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour.  And regarding the other

25    report that Mr. Domazet referred to, the Prosecution received a report

Page 2427

 1    from another expert on Friday that was furnished to Mr. Domazet Monday

 2    morning.  As it is not tendered into evidence, I think it may be

 3    inappropriate for me to discuss the results of it, but Mr. Domazet is

 4    aware of those results and can use them as he sees fit.

 5            And then just one other very minor matter.  I'm going to ask the

 6    witness a number of questions regarding Exhibit D22.  Because that's

 7    handwritten and because it's caused some confusion in the past, the

 8    Prosecution has typed up a copy of that list.  With Mr. Domazet's consent,

 9    perhaps we can use the typed copy rather than the handwritten copy to

10    avoid any further confusion.  And I would propose that it be marked as

11    Defence Exhibit 22.1.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  That has only one set of numbers, has it?

13            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  Have you seen this, Mr. Domazet?

15            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

16            MR. GROOME:  I don't believe you have, Mr. Domazet.  This is -- I

17    just did this over lunch.

18            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes.  It's new, yes.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, that will be Exhibit D22.1, and it will be

20    under seal.

21            Thank you very much, Mr. Groome.

22            MR. GROOME:  I'd ask that that now be shown to the witness.

23       Q.   Mr. Lindo, I'm going to ask you to look at Exhibit D22.1, and I'm

24    going to ask you a number of questions about these people.  But rather

25    than us refer to them by name in court, I would ask you to refer to them,

Page 2428












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 2429

 1    as I will, by their number that is just to the left of their name.  Do you

 2    understand that instruction, sir?  Do you understand how we will use that

 3    sheet of paper, D22.1, Mr. Lindo?

 4            You're shaking your head no.  Let me give you an example.  If

 5    there was a number 100 on that list and the person's name was Bozo, we

 6    would refer to Bozo as VGD100.  Do you understand now how we will use this

 7    sheet?  We need you to answer verbally for the record.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  I think it might be better if I explained to the

 9    witness.  We're not asking you to learn them off by heart.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] VGD20.  I'm saying 20.  I don't know

11    it.  I don't know him.

12            THE INTERPRETER:  "VDG20, I don't know him," says the witness.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  We're not getting any translation.  We're still not

14    getting any translation.

15            THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear on this microphone?

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Oh.  Somebody has been interfering with my

17    microphone.  It's on another channel.

18            Yes.  Anyway, I think the witness now understands that if we want

19    to refer to VGD20, then we will refer to him by that number and not by

20    that name.

21            Do you understand that, sir?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] VGD21, I don't know him.  Should I

23    go right through the list from the top down?

24            JUDGE HUNT:  No, no.  Counsel is going to ask you some questions.

25    If you have to refer to any of these people, what we want you to do is to

Page 2430

 1    refer to them by the number on the left-hand side - you needn't worry

 2    about the VGD; just the number - rather than by their name.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

 4            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5       Q.   The first person I will ask you about, Mr. Lindo, is VGD7.  Would

 6    you look at the name next to VGD7.  And my question for you is:  Do you

 7    recognise that name?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   I'd ask you to look at the name next to VGD8.  Do you recognise

10    that name?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   I'd ask you to look at VGD9.  Do you recognise that name?

13       A.   I don't know this one either.

14       Q.   How about VGD3?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   How about VGD4?

17       A.   I don't know that one either.  I can tell you straight away, I

18    looked through this list briefly.  I know [redacted] as a policeman

19    here from this list, so you don't have to ask me further.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  Is that the only person you know on that list, sir?

21    Don't mention any names; just the number.  Is that the only person whose

22    name appears on that list that you know the name of?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, I think it will save us a lot of time, and

25    we'll redact the reference to the person.

Page 2431

 1            MR. GROOME:  Okay.

 2       Q.   So would it be fair to say that if there was other evidence before

 3    the Court that some of the people, some of the names on this list which

 4    you do not recognise, were paramilitaries, would it be fair to say that

 5    you did not know who the paramilitaries were operating in Visegrad?  Is

 6    that correct?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   You did not know who the paramilitaries were?

 9       A.   No.  I just know the White Eagles, that they came.  I knew about

10    them.  They mistreated me a little.  The man had his face blackened, and

11    then I realised they were the White Eagles.  That's how I learnt who they

12    were, that they were the White Eagles.  That's all I know.

13       Q.   Now, after Mitar Vasiljevic stopped coming to Prelovo, would it be

14    fair to say that you rarely saw him after that point in time?  Is that

15    correct?

16       A.   I told you a moment ago that I went to Blace, and after that I

17    didn't leave for some time.  And then after some time, I heard that he

18    broke his leg.  I told you that.  And then after that I didn't see the

19    paramilitaries.

20       Q.   So from between the time that the kitchen moved to Blace and the

21    time that you saw Mr. Vasiljevic in a cast, on crutches, you did not see

22    him during any time between those two events; is that correct?

23       A.   That is correct.

24       Q.   So you are not able to tell us who during that period

25    Mr. Vasiljevic may or may not have associated with; is that correct?

Page 2432

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Now, once again I want to ask you a couple of questions regarding

 3    something related to Prelovo.  During your time in Prelovo, were you ever

 4    issued a red armband to wear on your arm, above your elbow?  Did anybody

 5    ever give you a red armband?

 6       A.   No, not here on my arm, but on shoulders there were some kind of

 7    insignia.  I can't remember which arm.  Small ribbons.  I can't remember

 8    the colour.  Every soldier had them when they went to the front lines.

 9    And he had an armband over here, as I said, but I can't remember whether

10    it was on his left or his right arm.

11       Q.   Let's talk about what you had first.  What you're describing you

12    had, you wore on the top of your shoulder?  Is that where you indicated

13    you wore whatever it was you wore?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And how would you affix that to the clothing or the uniform you

16    were wearing?  Would you pin it on?

17       A.   One would tie it on, on the epaulettes.  I don't know how to

18    explain it to you.  A tiny, little ribbon.

19       Q.   And can you approximate for us about how long was this tiny,

20    little ribbon?

21       A.   Something like this, so you could tie it.  Ten centimetres or so.

22    You just tied it, knotted it there.

23       Q.   And you said you don't recall the colour of the one that you had.

24    Did the colour change from time to time?

25       A.   The colour did change, under their orders, from the orders of the

Page 2433

 1    superiors.  One day it was one colour, the next day another, the third day

 2    another still.

 3       Q.   And do you know what the purpose of this ribbon was?  Do you know

 4    what the purpose was?

 5       A.   The purpose was to mark the troops - I don't know how to put it to

 6    you - so that other troops would not interfere, that it was all one

 7    Territorial Defence.

 8       Q.   Did the men on your crew that prepared food, would they wear the

 9    same colour ribbon as the men out fighting on the front line?

10       A.   I am afraid that even that I don't quite remember, whether they

11    paid attention to this.  Whether they changed it regularly or not, I

12    really can't recall now.

13       Q.   Now, the cook, Mr. Vaso Vojinovic, did he wear a similar tiny

14    ribbon on his epaulette?  Did he wear the same thing?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And did you see Mr. Vojinovic with a red armband around his arm,

17    just above his elbow?

18       A.   No.  No.

19       Q.   Now, can you tell us what it was that Mr. Vasiljevic wore?

20       A.   He wore a broad red armband as a sign of the Red Cross, the

21    medical, as I said.

22       Q.   Did anybody on your crew wear a similar armband with the red cross

23    on it?

24       A.   Not with the red cross.  For me, this red ribbon meant the Red

25    Cross.  But he carried -- the doctor would wear the red cross marking the

Page 2434

 1    medical corps.  So for me, that is what the red cross meant.

 2       Q.   And did Mr. Vasiljevic wear this every day when he went to work?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Now, in your last answer -- well, I want to make sure that we're

 5    clear here.  Was there an actual red cross on the ribbon -- I'm sorry, on

 6    the armband?

 7       A.   I told you that the red ribbon marked that it was the Red Cross.

 8    The red ribbon.  And that is why I mentioned the Red Cross.

 9       Q.   Let me ask you again, and I'll ask you to answer with a simple

10    question or no.  Was there an actual red cross on this armband?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Okay.

13            MR. GROOME:  I'm going to ask that the witness -- or that the

14    following Prosecution documents, document 102.1 and 102.2, I'm going to

15    ask that a copy of that be shown the witness.  I would note for the

16    transcript that 102.1 is - I'd ask that it be distributed to the Court as

17    well - that 102.1 is the English version of the original B/C/S version,

18    which is 102.2.

19            I'd ask that the second page be shown the witness, the B/C/S

20    version, and that's 102.2.

21       Q.   Mr. Lindo, I want to draw your attention to the last -- July of

22    2000 and ask you -- I'm sorry.  Did you give a statement to

23    Mr. Tanaskovic, who is in the courtroom here today, did you give to him a

24    statement regarding your observations of certain events in Prelovo?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2435

 1       Q.   And at the time you gave that statement, you realised or you knew

 2    that Mr. Vasiljevic had been arrested and that your statement might be

 3    used in a trial of this matter; is that correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And it was your sincere wish at that time to be as truthful as

 6    possible with Mr. Tanaskovic; was it not?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And you told Mr. Tanaskovic everything that you could recall about

 9    the events that he asked you about; correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Now, I draw your attention to the last line of your statement,

12    just above the date, and ask you, does it not say:  "I affirm that

13    everything I have said here is true, and I am willing to repeat it in

14    court"?  I'd ask you, is that not written on the statement before you?

15            MR. GROOME:  I see the witness looking at the monitor instead of

16    the statement.

17       Q.   I'd ask you to look at the photocopy of the statement directly

18    down on the desk.

19       A.   I see.  I see.

20       Q.   Do you recognise Prosecution document 102.2, the document in front

21    of you on the desk?

22       A.   This one.

23       Q.   Correct.  That one that you've just put your finger on.  Do you

24    recognise that document?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2436

 1       Q.   Is that your signature on the bottom of that document?

 2       A.   It is.

 3       Q.   And prior to signing that document, you had an opportunity to read

 4    it; correct?

 5       A.   I don't quite remember, but I remember what I said, and I suppose

 6    I signed what I said.

 7       Q.   And is that a photocopy of the statement that you gave to

 8    Mr. Tanaskovic in July of 2000?

 9       A.   I beg your pardon.  Yes, it is.

10            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time, the Prosecution would

11    tender documents 102.1 and 102.2 into evidence.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Are you going to put it to him at some stage as an

13    inconsistent statement?

14            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  May I suggest that when you do so, so there can be no

16    argument about the translation, you have him read the B/C/S version that

17    he signed, and we'll get the English translation from the interpreters.

18            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  It might be a very good idea, too, if there was a

20    copy given to the interpreters.

21            MR. GROOME:  They already have that, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Oh, right.  Okay.

23            Mr. Domazet, any objection to the tender of those two documents?

24            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  My only concern, Mr. Groome, is that we had got a

Page 2437

 1    whole system running of when an inconsistent statement is going to be

 2    relied upon that it's agreed that that's what it says so that we don't

 3    have a lot of unnecessary statements.  Is it being intended solely for the

 4    purpose of demonstrating an inconsistent statement?

 5            MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour, and I --

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Do you want to run your argument about it not being a

 7    hearsay statement and it has some individual probative value?

 8            MR. GROOME:  That and -- it is both that, and it does -- I am

 9    offering it as impeachment.  While I think the agreement that Mr. Domazet

10    and I reached is a useful mechanism for saving time and we've employed it

11    in every case up until this, I think in this case it is more appropriate

12    that the actual document be put before the Court.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  But why?  Because I don't want now to have now a

14    cascade of documents when their only purpose, and their only purpose is,

15    as you say, is to impeach his evidence.

16            MR. GROOME:  No.  I don't think that -- that is not my only

17    purpose, Your Honour, and I assure the Court --

18            JUDGE HUNT:  I can't see any other.

19            MR. GROOME:  I assure the Court that there will not be a cascade

20    of documents.  At this moment, I cannot see the need to introduce any

21    other document during the remainder of this case.

22            I would propose at this stage that he only read the relevant

23    portion.  So I don't believe that will take very much time as well.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Very well.  If there is no objection to it, they will

25    be Exhibits P102.1 and 102.2.

Page 2438

 1            MR. GROOME:

 2       Q.   Mr. Lindo, I'm going to ask you to simply read the second

 3    paragraph of your statement, and in the English version, it begins with

 4    the phrase "Sometime in April 1992."  Can you find that paragraph and

 5    please read it for us?

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Not too quickly so that the interpreters can follow

 7    you.

 8       A.   "Sometime in April 1992, after the Uzice Corps had left from this

 9    area, I was assigned by the competent organ, I think I said the

10    Territorial Defence, I was assigned to work in the kitchen.  That was

11    organised in Prelovo near Visegrad, which is about 20 kilometres from

12    Visegrad -- from Visegrad.

13            This kitchen was organised immediately after the departure of the

14    Uzice Corps, because the people were upset, scared, and did not have food,

15    so this kitchen was organised to feed the people, to assist, at least to

16    some extent.  In the kitchen I worked with Vaso Vojinovic and Mitrasin

17    Glisic, and Mitar Vasiljevic was there too, as was [redacted].  I do not

18    recall his first name.  Vasiljevic was in charge of hygiene in the

19    kitchen, and the food, and so on.  He was a sort of health inspector,

20    because he had an armband with a sign.  It is the ribbon of the Red

21    Cross.  That is what I said, not that he had a red cross on it.  Here,

22    too, I said something like that.  I didn't say he had a red cross; that he

23    had this five- or six-centimetre-wide armband.  He wore an olive-drab

24    uniform, as I said, of the Yugoslav People's Army, and he had been issued

25    a rifle.  Whether it was automatic or semi-automatic, I really cannot

Page 2439

 1    remember now.  I said that when I was giving the statement.  In any case,

 2    he rarely carried this weapon, but I know that one had been issued to him,

 3    like all of us."  Shall I go on?

 4            MR. GROOME:

 5       Q.   That's sufficient, sir.  Can I ask you:  Who was it that first

 6    approached you regarding giving testimony here in Court?

 7       A.   Who was the first to approach me?

 8       Q.   Yes.

 9       A.   The attorney.

10       Q.   Which attorney?

11       A.   Rudomir Tanaskovic.

12       Q.   Aside from your own statement, did you have an opportunity to see

13    any other statements in connection with this case?

14       A.   No.  I didn't know really what it was all about, whether it was so

15    necessary.  I knew the person, and now I've come here to tell what

16    happened.

17       Q.   Did you have an opportunity to either see, or see a transcript of

18    Mr. Vasiljevic's testimony in these proceedings?

19       A.   No.  I don't have a TV over there.  We live in the village.

20    There's satellite now, and I don't have a TV set, and I work all day long,

21    from dawn to dusk.  And I just come here because you called me, and I'm

22    making this statement here, too.

23       Q.   Now, on your trip up here, Mr. Domazet told us yesterday that in

24    the Sarajevo airport, a person working in a coffee bar threatened you and

25    accused you of committing some crimes in Visegrad.  Is that correct?

Page 2440

 1       A.   No.  No.  Not me.

 2       Q.   Can you tell us who did this person, this waiter, accuse of

 3    committing crimes?

 4       A.   He accused - he didn't accuse - this one who was to come before

 5    me.  They went to have coffee, and he mentioned my brother, how they knew

 6    each other.  I don't know.  And I said, because he was working in the

 7    police, and I know him, and this one was working in the police, and then

 8    this young man recognised him and asked him something, and he would

 9    complain to you and his turn will come.  I -- what they actually said, I

10    don't ...

11       Q.   Who did this young man recognise?

12            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Domazet.

14            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid he mentioned

15    the name, which we have protected here as a witness.  I don't mind the

16    witness telling you, but ...

17            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, we've got the document, have we not, with the

18    pseudonyms on it?  He's got it.

19            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No.  Mr. Groome is asking who this

20    young man approached, this waiter approached at the Sarajevo airport.

21    This person is a witness here and he is due to appear as a protected

22    witness, and this witness here doesn't know that.  That is why I would

23    suggest that we either go into private session or that he be shown the

24    name in writing, and then he can say whether that is that person.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  You're talking about VGD23, I assume.

Page 2441

 1            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, is there a piece of paper with that written on

 3    it?  Yes.  Put the name, would you?  It's Witness number 14 on the list.

 4    Unfortunately, from our previous experience, I'm not sure that the witness

 5    will quite understand, but we'll try.

 6            Are you prepared to put the matter to him directly by the

 7    pseudonym?

 8            MR. GROOME:  Sure.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  And then he can see from the piece of paper who it is

10    you're referring to.

11            MR. GROOME:  Yes.  That's quite acceptable.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  All right.  Well, show that to the witness, please,

13    and it will be exhibit -- it will be one of yours.  What's your next

14    number?

15            MR. GROOME:  105, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.

17            Have you seen that, Mr. Domazet?  Have you seen the piece of

18    paper?

19            MR. DOMAZET:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  That is Exhibit P105.  It is under seal.  Show it to

21    the witness, please.

22            Now, sir, counsel is going to put to you a question about somebody

23    to whom he will refer to as VGD23.  The person to whom he is referring,

24    his name is on that piece of paper which the usher is showing you.  Please

25    do not refer to him by that name.

Page 2442

 1            Yes, Mr. Groome.

 2            MR. GROOME:

 3       Q.   Is that the person who the waiter recognised?  You need to answer

 4    verbally, please.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And were you present when --

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   And was the waiter a person from Visegrad?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And if you know, what did the waiter accuse that witness of doing?

11       A.   I don't know, because they went on to complain, so I'm not

12    familiar with the whole incident.  They were up at the bar.  What was

13    going on, I don't know.

14       Q.   Well, you --

15       A.   I can't tell you anything about that.  That is why I said a moment

16    ago that the man would be coming here and he will explain everything to

17    you.

18       Q.   Well, did Mr. VGD23 tell you for the rest of your travels, or

19    during the rest of your travels, what it was the waiter accused him of?

20       A.   No.  We didn't have time for that, because we went on to the

21    station for transportation.  There were seven of us.  There were three or

22    four at one table, so we weren't all together.  That was how the whole

23    journey evolved.  So he complained to Domazet, and I know nothing more

24    about it.

25       Q.   Mr. Lindo, you were given a guarantee, were you not, before you

Page 2443

 1    came to The Hague that you would not be arrested during the time that you

 2    are here?  Is that correct?

 3       A.   No.  Nobody told me anything, nor did I think about it.  When

 4    somebody's not guilty, I'm not afraid of anything.  Why are you asking me

 5    that?

 6       Q.   Well, there have been representations made that you did so require

 7    a guarantee that you would not be arrested.  Is that not correct?

 8       A.   No.

 9            MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Mr. Lindo.  I have no further questions.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Re-examination?

11            MR. DOMAZET:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                          Re-examined by Mr. Domazet:

13       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Lindo, at one point, answering a question put

14    to you by Mr. Groome about some paramilitary formations, you said that you

15    only saw some people called the White Eagles and that you had some

16    problems with them.  Is that right?

17       A.   Yes, and that's why I said that I had seen that, and they came and

18    frightened me, and they had -- I was wearing a JNA cap, and they came with

19    their faces sooted and I didn't know what they were.  And he said if I

20    don't wipe out that five-point star, he would take down my particulars.

21       Q.   Judging by what they looked like or judging by the dialect they

22    were speaking, or their speech, could you judge whether they were from

23    Visegrad or from Serbia proper?

24       A.   No, I wasn't able to.  I don't know them and I don't know them.

25    That's all.

Page 2444

 1       Q.   Was that your only contact with people of that kind?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   In your written statement, the one you gave to Mr. Tanaskovic and

 4    the one you looked at and partially read a moment ago, would you take a

 5    look at it again, please.

 6            And in the one but last paragraph, it says, and please look to see

 7    whether I'm reading it correctly:

 8            "I know Vasiljevic well, and I assert that he was truly not a

 9    member of any paramilitary unit and was not prone to killing and the

10    like.  As far as I know, he did not do that.  He did not, no."

11            Are those your words?

12       A.   Yes, they are.  And as I stand here, I can say and guarantee that

13    he was not in any paramilitary unit.  He was with me, and I say that on --

14    I guarantee it with my life.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  That was, of course, not really arising out of

16    cross-examination, but it will perhaps demonstrate to Mr. Groome why we

17    don't have documents in evidence if we can avoid them.

18            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  "Paramilitary unit," not

19    "military unit."  "Paramilitary unit."

20            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, possibly, but I feel

21    that in Mr. Groome's questioning, when he quoted and asked the witness

22    something precisely connected to that to say yes or no, the witness said,

23    "No," meaning yes, because he said he was not a member.  So it appeared

24    that he was saying something else, and this was not clear to me when I saw

25    the question and answer in the transcript.  That's why I asked him again,

Page 2445

 1    to see if he stood by what he said here.  I needn't have quoted it.  Could

 2    have just simply asked him, that is true.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Domazet, I admire you for that explanation.

 4    There was no doubt in my mind when the witness answered it just exactly

 5    what he meant, but still you got away with it.  That's quite all right.

 6    We're not rejecting the evidence.

 7            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8       Q.   Mr. Lindo, in answering questions put to you with respect to

 9    whether you knew Mitar and the schooling and so on, you said that for four

10    years, you went to school together.  Did I understand you correctly?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   After that, you weren't together.  That's what I understood that

13    you said, that you weren't together any more after that.  So please say if

14    so and why.

15       A.   Mitar Vasiljevic, I said a moment ago, did go to the first four

16    years of school, but he was from a better-off family, and he was better at

17    school.  And as you can see, he graduated from catering school, whereas I

18    was poorer, and I wasn't as bright, and I didn't have the possibility.  So

19    I just did these four years and then started farming, whereas Mitar went

20    on.

21            When he finished school, he went into town.  He got married.  He

22    got a family.  So I know that very well.  I know him very well as a waiter

23    later on.  And so there were no problems.

24       Q.   You personally, have you got more than four years of primary

25    school or not?

Page 2446












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 2447

 1       A.   No.  I finished four years, and I added on to that by taking some

 2    part-time exams to make up for the eight years.

 3       Q.   Mr. Lindo, when you were answering Mr. Groome with respect to the

 4    type of work you did in Prelovo, you said in a way that Mitar was some

 5    sort of superior and that you would get instructions from him or he would

 6    tell you to do things.  Was he a superior on that same sort of basis to

 7    others in addition to you?

 8       A.   Well, I said that he was the main person, because I was an

 9    assistant worker in -- dealing with hygiene.  I cleaned up.  So he was in

10    charge of that and in charge of the kitchen, and of course, I saw to the

11    hygiene.  I had to see that the plates were kept clean and things like

12    that.  But he was the main inspector for me.  He was the supervisor.

13       Q.   Do you mean by that that as far as hygiene and sanitary conditions

14    were concerned, he was the person that was -- that supervised your work

15    and everything?

16       A.   Yes.  That's right.

17   Q.   You mentioned someone with the name -- surname of [redacted] as being

18    somebody who did something around the kitchen, as you put it.

19       A.   Yes, that's right.

20       Q.   That person, did they go to Blace with you when you left?

21       A.   Yes, he did.

22       Q.   Did they stay with you in Blace?  And if so, can you tell us how

23    long?

24       A.   He stayed in Blace, but I was reassigned.  So I don't want to say

25    why, but actually, I had broken a leg, too, when I was doing guard duty in

Page 2448

 1    Prelovo.  Those were different conditions.  I was transferred there.

 2       Q.   You were transferred later from Blace; is that right?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4    Q.   Whereas the man [redacted] stayed there; is that what you're saying?

 5       A.   Yes, that's right.

 6       Q.   Do you remember what kind of work he performed there?

 7       A.   Well, he was the assistant.  He did the dishes.  I did the

 8    firewood.  He went to take round -- to distribute the food with the van,

 9    the same van that Obren Vojinovic drove.  Supplies, yes.

10       Q.   So he drove the van.

11       A.   Vojinovic, Obren Vojinovic drove the van round and brought in

12    supplies for the kitchen.

13       Q.   Which one do you mean?

14       A. [redacted].

15   Q.   Just once again to avoid misunderstanding. [redacted] drove the van

16    in Blace and -- explain again, please.

17       A. [redacted] was transferred to the kitchen and he worked as an

18  assistance to Vaso, and then [redacted] began to drive around in the field,

19    and then he went with Obren and he was the main supplier of food to Blace.

20       Q.   Very well.  Now, you mentioned Obren Vojinovic, who drove a van in

21    Prelovo and went to fetch supplies.

22       A.   Yes, in Prelovo, and Blace, he was transferred to.  But in Blace,

23    the main one was for driving around the field, [redacted],.

24    So he was the main one in charge there, [redacted].  He transferred to

25    Blace, but Obren still kept driving.  And Obren still keeps driving around

Page 2449

 1    today, too, that van.

 2       Q.   So in Blace, this man [redacted], did he replace Mitar Vasiljevic

 3    doing the jobs that Mitar Vasiljevic did when you were with him?

 4            MR. GROOME:  Objection, leading.

 5       A.   Well, yes, but what he was actually called -- I know they went in

 6    the field, and twice a week they would bring in supplies.  Whether he was

 7  the main driver or whether this [redacted] person went with him, I can't say

 8    now.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

10            MR. GROOME:  I object to the form of the question.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  The question, "Did he replace Vasiljevic or" -- yes.

12    I must confess that your substantial cross-examination about this man

13  named [redacted] completely went over -- the relevance of it completely went

14    over my head, but if there is some issue to be raised about it, it is a

15    leading question, I'm afraid, Mr. Domazet.

16            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it is an absolutely critical issue in

17    this trial, and I would be happy to point that out to the Court if it

18    wishes.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, at some stage no doubt you will, but it

20    certainly wasn't apparent to me at the time.  It's a leading question.

21    It's been answered.  I don't know whether you can do very much about it,

22    Mr. Groome.  You didn't object until he was well into the answer, I'm

23    afraid.

24            Mr. Domazet, I don't know how you can go about it.  You can ask

25    him in a non-leading form, perhaps, but I think that probably the value of

Page 2450

 1    the evidence is of little importance now, or little probative value, shall

 2    I say.

 3            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unlike Mr. Groome, I do

 4    not consider that this is of key importance, this matter regarding the man

 5    [redacted], but I wanted to ask the question because other people, and not

 6    even Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic, mentioned that particular person.  And that is

 7    why I wanted to clear this up with the witness, because it does emanate

 8    from Mr. Groome's question.  And from the answer, I understand that he was

 9    helping Obren Vojinovic and did what Mitar did.  Perhaps that is why my

10    question could have been considered to be a leading one.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  If the issue of the relationship between them is of

12    importance, as Mr. Groome says, whether it's substantial or even minor,

13    there is no doubt that the question is a leading one.  Now, the problem is

14    the weight to be given to an answer to a leading question is usually very

15    little indeed.  All I've done --

16            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  -- you might be able to get an answer from him which

18    is not leading which will have some value.  It's rather difficult to

19    imagine how it -- how you can.  The problem, of course, is that the

20    witness had well and truly started to answer it before Mr. Groome had got

21    the interpretation and was able to object to the question.

22            So I'm leaving it to you.  If you want to try and get an answer

23    from the witness which has some probative value, you can try it.  I should

24    warn you that the answer, if it becomes important, the answer which he has

25    given cannot be given very much weight.

Page 2451

 1            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes.  I understand, Your Honour, and

 2    I don't insist on further questioning in that regard.  Let me just ask the

 3    witness one thing.

 4   Q.   The man [redacted], was he from the first days, that is to say, when

 5    Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic was in Prelovo, was he there, too, or not?  Was he

 6    there from the start or not?

 7       A.   He came in the last days.  He was transferred to Blace with us.

 8    So he could have joined up in the kitchen, working in the kitchen, and

 9    continued to distribute and transport food with Obren to Visegrad.  Well,

10    he did come to get supplies in Blace.  Now, at whose initiative or

11    whatever, I don't remember.

12       Q.   Mr. Dikic -- I'm sorry.  Mr. Lindo, just one question in that

13    regard.  When you said he came in the last days before you went to Blace,

14    is that right?  Is that what you mean, before you went to Blace?

15       A.   Yes, that's right.

16       Q.   Thank you.  And my last question for you:  After everything you

17    have told us, do you still state that Mitar Vasiljevic was the person who

18    was with you in Prelovo up until the time when you say, 10 or 15 days

19    later, he stopped coming?  Is that right?

20       A.   Yes.

21            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

22    questions.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.

24            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm going to ask to be permitted --

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Do you do this to every witness that you've

Page 2452

 1    cross-examined on?

 2            MR. GROOME:  The issue has arisen in the re --

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  What has?

 4            MR. GROOME:  The witness has mentioned that he broke his leg in

 5    Blace, and I'd like to ask --

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  He talked about his broken leg in cross-examination.

 7            MR. GROOME:  He didn't say it was regarding Blace, though, Your

 8    Honour.  There's a general reference to a broken leg, and it would have

 9    been irrelevant for me to have gone into --

10            JUDGE HUNT:  How is it relevant now?

11            MR. GROOME:  I want to ask him where he was treated and when he

12    broke his leg.

13            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm still at a loss to know how this is relevant.

14            MR. GROOME:  Depending on his answer, it may be very relevant,

15    Your Honour.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.

17            JUDGE HUNT:  What do you say, Mr. Domazet?  Certainly he did not

18    mention the place where he broke his leg or the particular time in

19    cross-examination.  Do you object to counsel for the Prosecution asking

20    any questions about it?

21            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if Mr. Groome considers

22    that the question is important for him, then I have nothing against it; of

23    course, if you allow this yourself.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm not sure whether that's an answer or not.  If you

25    say you do not object to him doing it because Mr. Groome thinks it's

Page 2453

 1    important, then we, of course, will allow him to do it.  If we have to

 2    rule upon it, it may be a different question.  I don't know.

 3            MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I have no objection, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

 5                          Further cross-examination by Mr. Groome:

 6       Q.   Mr. Lindo, can you tell us where you were treated for your broken

 7    leg?

 8       A.   Me?  You're asking me?

 9       Q.   Yes.  Do you remember, were you treated in the hospital, and if

10    so, which hospital?

11       A.   I just said a moment ago that I had broken my leg too.  I broke it

12    in the company I worked for, in 1989, and I was treated in Sarajevo.

13       Q.   Did you break your leg in Blace?

14       A.   No.  No.  When you asked me about Mitar, when he broke his leg, I

15    said I don't know, but I know what it's like when you break a leg, because

16    I've broken a leg too.  That's what I said.  I have nothing further to

17    add.  I just said that I knew what it was like to break a leg because I

18    had broken a leg too.  Do you understand me?  I'm not an eyewitness or

19    anything.  I just said, when you asked me whether I went up to ask him how

20    he was, where he had broken a leg, I just said that I know what it's like

21    to break a leg, and that's why I didn't ask him.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  This is what appears at page 85, Mr. Groome, if

23    you're looking for it.  He --

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1989.  1989.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Please.  Just one moment.  He said, at line 12:

Page 2454

 1                     A.   But actually, I had broken a leg too when I was

 2                          doing guard duty in Prelovo.  Those were different

 3                          conditions.  I was transferred there.

 4                     Q.   You were transferred later from Blace; is that

 5                          right?

 6                     A.   Yes.

 7            Is that what you're thinking of?

 8            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   Mr. Lindo, you've just heard the Court read your testimony from

10    just a few minutes ago.  Did you or did you not break your leg while you

11    were on guard duty in Prelovo?

12       A.   No.  No.  What I said was, when the Judge asked me whether I knew

13    him when he broke his leg, and I said that I don't know when he broke his

14    leg but that I broke a leg in 1989 and I know what it feels like when you

15    break a leg.  That's what I said.  I don't know what else.  I didn't say

16    that I was on guard duty here or there.  That's what I said.

17       Q.   Just one final question.  If you had -- if somebody had broken

18    their leg in Prelovo, would I be correct in saying that the nearest

19    hospital, or the hospital they would have been brought to, would have been

20    Uzice hospital?  Wouldn't that be correct?

21       A.   Yes.

22            MR. GROOME:  Thank you.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Any re-examination on that, Mr. Domazet?

24            MR. DOMAZET:  No, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.

Page 2455

 1            Thank you, sir, for coming along to give evidence here.  We're

 2    very grateful to you for coming and for the evidence you've given.  You

 3    are now free to leave.

 4                          [The witness withdrew]

 5                          [The witness entered court]

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Now, sir, would you please make the solemn

 7    declaration which is in the document that the Court usher is showing you.

 8                          WITNESS:  VASILIJE VOJINOVIC

 9                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Take his headset off.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to take this off.  Shall I

12    read it aloud?  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

13    truth, and nothing but the truth.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Sit down, please.  Please sit down, sir.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Tanaskovic.

17                          Examined by Mr. Tanaskovic:

18       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vojinovic, good afternoon.

19       A.   Good afternoon.

20       Q.   Would you please tell us your name, first and last.

21       A.   I am Vasilije Vojinovic.

22       Q.   Tell us when and where you were born.

23       A.   I was born in the village of Vlasina, near Visegrad, in 1935, on

24    the 24th of April - that's what my parents told me - on Easter day, and

25    that's why they gave me the name Vasilije.

Page 2456

 1       Q.   I have to caution you to pause between my question and your

 2    answer, because the interpreters can't keep up with us.  So I'm saying

 3    this so that the President of the Chamber need not interrupt the

 4    proceedings.

 5       A.   I understand.

 6       Q.   Well, you didn't, since you didn't make a pause in answer to my

 7    first question.

 8            Tell me, please, where you are living now and what you do for a

 9    living.  What is your occupation?

10       A.   I'm a cook by occupation, and I am now in the village of Blace,

11    near Visegrad.  I am retired and I'm working the land.

12       Q.   So you used to work as a cook and retired as such?

13       A.   I did.

14       Q.   And in which company?

15       A.   I worked in Belgrade, in Zegrep, in the Sarajevo Zegrep, but the

16    branch office in Belgrade; headquartered in Sarajevo but with a branch

17    office in Belgrade.

18       Q.   For how long did you work in that company?

19       A.   I worked there for 24 years, in the same company.

20       Q.   Does that mean that you lived in Belgrade during those 24 years?

21       A.   Yes, I did.

22       Q.   Would you come to visit your native region?

23       A.   Yes, I did visit, as my family were in the villages, the children

24    were at school, my wife and mother were in the village.  Sometimes it

25    would be after a month, sometimes a month and a half, I would go back home

Page 2457

 1    to visit them.

 2       Q.   So you would go home after a month or after a month and a half; it

 3    depended?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   You said that you are now living in the village of Blace.

 6       A.   Yes, now.

 7       Q.   And do you know Mr. Vasiljevic, Mitar?

 8       A.   I do.

 9       Q.   How do you know him?

10       A.   He went to school when he was younger, and he would pass by my

11    house as he travelled from his village to the bus stop, until he

12    completed -- I assume it was his eight-year elementary school.

13       Q.   Tell me:  What is the name of his village?

14       A.   His village is called Djurevici.

15       Q.   How far is that village of Djurevici from your village?

16       A.   Well, maybe three or three and a half kilometres.  You go over a

17    hill.

18       Q.   Does that mean that you knew that family, the whole Vasiljevic

19    family?

20       A.   I do know them, because we are not far from one another.

21       Q.   Tell me, please, or rather, tell us:  Have you done your military

22    service?

23       A.   Yes, I have.

24       Q.   That was in the former Yugoslav People's Army, was it not?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 2458

 1       Q.   And where did you do your military service?

 2       A.   In Pozarevac for six months, and then I was transferred to Pirot

 3    on the -- to the Bulgarian border, the village of Toplje Do [phoen].  I

 4    was at the guardhouse there.

 5       Q.   What was your speciality or what branch of the army were you?

 6    Please, Mr. Vojinovic.  Wait a moment and then give us your answer.  Go

 7    on.

 8       A.   I was a border guard.

 9       Q.   Were you a cook in the army?

10       A.   I was a border guard in the army, and then I went to Dimitrovgrad

11    to attend a cooking and baking course, because there was a bakery at the

12    border which was far removed from the town.  So I had to complete this

13    course for a cook and baker at the same time.

14       Q.   You told us a moment ago that you were a pensioner.

15       A.   I am.

16       Q.   When did you retire?

17       A.   Well, I'm afraid I can't remember what year it was.  I've forgot.

18    I am a bit nervous, so I've forgotten.

19       Q.   Let me ask you a different question.  Since when have you been

20    permanently residing in Blace, in your village?  When did you stop working

21    in Belgrade?  Wait a moment, please.  Please, Vojinovic.  Go on.

22       A.   I have been in Blace since 1992.

23       Q.   After the Uzice Corps left, there was a mobilisation.  Were you

24    mobilised and by whom?

25       A.   I was, by the Territorial Defence, whatever it's called.  I was

Page 2459

 1    mobilised as a cook.

 2       Q.   Where were you assigned to?

 3       A.   I was assigned to Prelovo, to the school building there.

 4       Q.   Would you explain what the school building contained?

 5       A.   It used to be the elementary school, eight-year elementary

 6    school.

 7       Q.   That is not what I meant.  I was asking you what was organised in

 8    that building to which you were assigned.  Please wait, Mr. Vojinovic.

 9    Look at the screen in front of you.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  It is not switched on.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  Switch it on to the transcript.

12            MR. TANASKOVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   My question was:  What had been organised in that school building

14    to which you had been assigned?  You can go on.

15       A.   In that school building a kitchen was set up, and there were

16    refugees.  This was a large hall, and there were a lot of refugees.  And

17    we were given two rooms for the storage and for the kitchen, a storeroom

18    and a kitchen.

19       Q.   So this kitchen, who was it meant for, or rather, who did you

20    prepare food for?

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Have you some trouble in answering the question,

22    sir?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid of making a mistake.  We

24    prepared food there for the army, for the Territorial Defence.  I can't

25    even speak it properly.

Page 2460

 1            MR. TANASKOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   Tell us, please, who was working in that kitchen, all the people

 3    who were working there?

 4       A.   The Territorial Defence asked me to go there to be the cook, as I

 5    had been a cook in the army too.  And there was a Mitrasin there, Mitrasin

 6    Glisic, who was cleaning.  Dragisa Lindo, he helped us.  He cleaned the

 7    compound and brought firewood for the stoves which we cooked on.  We had

 8    very limited resources.  And they cleaned around.  And I prepared the

 9    meals for the front lines.

10       Q.   For the Chamber to clearly understand what you mean, what do you

11    mean when you say "lines"?

12       A.   It's for the troops.  The army of the Territorial Defence that was

13    on the war front, that was deployed on the front lines.  And then

14    cauldrons of food were being prepared, breakfast and lunch.  The dinner

15    was sometimes dry-packed rations because it was a long distance across

16    mountains.

17       Q.   You have mentioned Dragisa Lindo, Mitrasin, yourself.  Was anyone

18    else there with you?

19       A.   If we needed to peel potatoes, to clean the beans, they would give

20    us some other people who were unfit for going to the front line.  Then

21    they would be assigned to us as necessary, when that was necessary.

22       Q.   Tell us, please, who was the chief of the kitchen?

23       A.   When I arrived, Mitar Vasiljevic told us what each one of us was

24    to do and how many cauldrons should be sent where and the numerical

25    composition of the troops.

Page 2461

 1       Q.   You mentioned the duties of each of these persons that you

 2    mentioned.  What did Mr. Vasiljevic do?  What was his duty?

 3       A.   He provided foodstuffs, and as the kitchen was not in order, he

 4    supplied us with the pots and food because this wasn't something that was

 5    clean and regulated and in order.  So he was with us.  Sometimes he would

 6    go into the field with the troops to assist them for the time that he was

 7    with us.

 8       Q.   You said that he brought in supplies.  Tell us, how did he do

 9    that?

10       A.   He would go into town.  The Territorial Defence, whatever they

11    had, they sent us.  Sometimes it was cabbages, sometimes beans, sometimes

12    macaroni.  The situation was bad.  And what they had, what was available,

13    he brought it and we prepared it.  That's how it was.

14       Q.   How were those provisions brought from Visegrad or from wherever?

15    What was used?  Wait a moment, Vojinovic, please.  Look at the screen in

16    front of you.  You can proceed.

17       A.   Sumarstvo gave us a van, and they drove the food in that van.  And

18    when we prepared the meals, again the same van would deliver them, deliver

19    the food.

20       Q.   The van you mentioned, was it requisitioned too or mobilised?

21       A.   I don't know.  Well, surely it must have been requisitioned when

22    it was used to transport the food.  Sometimes it had a red marking,

23    sometimes a green one.  When it went into the field, they changed these

24    colours.

25       Q.   Could you explain what markings you're referring to?

Page 2462

 1       A.   Well, I don't know how to put it.  I suppose on the basis of some

 2    kind of military secret, so that somebody would not intercept it.

 3       Q.   Mr. Vojinovic, do you know the driver of the van?

 4       A.   I do.

 5       Q.   Who was it?

 6       A.   Obren Vojinovic.  He used to work in the Sumarstvo company, and

 7    the van belonged to that company.

 8       Q.   A moment ago, you explained what the duties were of Mr. Vasiljevic

 9    and what he was doing in that kitchen.  Among other things, you mentioned

10    that he procured the food.  Did he do so using this van you mentioned and

11    the driver that you mentioned?

12       A.   There was another van, and one would go in one direction and the

13    other in the other direction, because they couldn't make it with one van.

14       Q.   Specifically, we are talking about the van with which foodstuffs

15    were transported from the Territorial Defence, as you told us.  Now, which

16    van are you talking about?  The one that was driven

17    by Vojinovic or some other van?

18    A.   Sometimes [redacted] would drive it.  That was his surname.

19       Q.   What did [redacted] drive?

20       A.   He drove foodstuffs like this other one.  My duties were in the

21    kitchen.  I didn't go out much.  I don't know what people were doing

22    outside the kitchen, because I couldn't move away from the pots.  The

23    firewood wasn't dry.  It was difficult to cook the food, and it was my

24    duty to cook it properly for the people who spent days and nights in the

25    mountains.  So I couldn't see or hear anyone or talk to anyone.  I was

Page 2463

 1    busy all the time around the stoves.

 2       Q.   Mr. Vojinovic, who drove the food when the kitchen was in Blace?

 3       A.   When the kitchen was in Blace, the driver was [redacted].

 4       Q.   A moment ago you said that Mr. Vasiljevic was the one who

 5    appointed you specifically as the cook.  Tell us:  Were you issued any

 6    kind of weapon, and if so, which?

 7       A.   I asked from the Territorial Defence that I be given a weapon

 8    because I had to travel home seven kilometres during the night.  My wife

 9    was alone.  There was a war on, and it wasn't safe, so I had to go to

10    check on her to make sure she was all right.  So I carried this weapon.

11    Fortunately, I never had any problems, because it's seven kilometres, the

12    distance through the woods to my house.

13       Q.   Mr. Vojinovic, would you please answer my questions, the specific

14    questions I'm asking you.  My next question is:  What weapon were you

15    issued, and who issued it to you?

16       A.   I was given an automatic rifle from the Territorial Defence.  A

17    soldier brought it to me in the kitchen.  I asked him to bring it to me

18    because I was travelling at night.  I was afraid.  I didn't dare cross the

19    mountains on my way home unarmed.

20       Q.   Tell me:  How frequently would you go home from the kitchen?

21       A.   Every other evening, as my wife was alone at home.  She was

22    afraid.  And I would come back at 3.00 or half past 3.00 a.m. so as to

23    have enough time to prepare the food.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  It's 4.00, Mr. Tanaskovic.  We'll adjourn now until

25    9.30 in the morning.

Page 2464












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 2465

 1                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.01 p.m.,

 2                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of

 3                          November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.