Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4578

1 Wednesday, 13 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.35 p.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-32-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Mitar Vasiljevic.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry for the late start. We propose to sit

10 through at this stage until 4.00, take half an hour break and then sit

11 through from half past 4.00 until 6.00. Bearing in mind that my two

12 colleagues have already spent four and a bit hours in the Court today, I

13 think that's about the limit of all of our endurances.

14 Sir, would you please stand up, make the solemn declaration in the

15 document which the usher is showing you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, sir.

21 Mr. Domazet.

22 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Your Honour, before we proceed, I think that we should give the

24 witness name and surname of protected Witness VG118, because his testimony

25 will concern the same events, so that he know who we are talking about and

Page 4579

1 so that he can refer to the protected witness in question under the

2 pseudonym.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Do you have a pseudonym sheet that he can be given?


5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe it's 117, and if Mr. Domazet's

6 sheet is incorrect, I have one with 117 on it. I believe the witness was

7 117.

8 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, I found it.

9 MR. GROOME: It was --

10 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, yes.

11 MR. GROOME: Okay. It was translated as 118.

12 MR. DOMAZET: Under 117, yes.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That will be Exhibit D48 and it will be

14 under seal.

15 Do proceed, Mr. Domazet. Thank you.

16 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examined by Mr. Domazet:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djuric, good afternoon.

19 A. Good afternoon, sir.

20 Q. Mr. Djuric, I will be examining you today on behalf of the Defence

21 team for Mitar Vasiljevic. I should like to ask you to answer my

22 questions, but would you please bear in mind the need to pause before you

23 begin your answer. I will also be mindful of that so that we can

24 facilitate the work of the interpreters, especially in view of the fact

25 that we speak the same language.

Page 4580

1 Also, would you please be so kind and have a look at the piece of

2 paper that is in front of you. Whenever I ask you a question about this

3 particular person, or if you need to speak about her, would you please not

4 mention her name or surname, but refer to her with the pseudonym, which is

5 on the sheet of paper that is in front of you.

6 So, Mr. Djuric, for the record, would you please state your name

7 and surname, the name of your parents, and the place and date of your

8 birth.

9 A. My name is Zoran Djuric. I was born on the 15th of November, in

10 Loznica, in the municipality of Visegrad.

11 Q. Your parents' names?

12 A. Miodrag Djuric. My mother's name is Ruza.

13 Q. Where do you currently reside, Mr. Djuric?

14 A. In Loznica.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to come closer

16 to the microphone.

17 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I shall now focus on the events from 1992. First of all, would

19 you please tell me whether you lived in the village of Loznica at the

20 time.

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir, the interpreters are having a little

23 difficulty hearing you --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Judge.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. The interpreters are having a little

Page 4581

1 difficulty hearing you. Would you bring your chair just a little closer

2 to the desk so that you are speaking right into the microphones. Thank

3 you very much.

4 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Djuric, 1992, in Visegrad, sometime in the second half of May,

6 you probably remember the fact that the Uzice Corps was in Visegrad at the

7 time.

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Would you please tell us what you did at the time, that is, what

10 you did after the departure of the Uzice Corps.

11 A. Just as everybody else, I was demobilised into the army for the

12 defence. I worked. I stood guard.

13 Q. I think that you have misspoken, Mr. Djuric. Were you mobilised

14 or demobilised at the time?

15 A. I was mobilised.

16 Q. Who mobilised you, Mr. Djuric?

17 A. Well, politicians.

18 Q. Could you be more specific, Mr. Djuric? What kind of command,

19 headquarters, or organisation was it? What was the institution that

20 mobilised you?

21 A. I don't know exactly what kind of institution it was at the time.

22 It was called the army of Republika Srpska. I mean, it is called the army

23 of Republika Srpska today.

24 Q. Let me try to rephrase my question. At that time, in the period

25 preceding that time, was there an organisation which was called

Page 4582

1 Territorial Defence?

2 A. There was the Territorial Defence. It existed even prior to that,

3 I mean before we were ...

4 Q. At that time, did you have a uniform at home? Had you already

5 been issued with a uniform? Did you take it there?

6 A. I had a uniform at home at the time.

7 Q. What kind of uniform was it?

8 A. An SMB, that is, an olive-drab uniform, the Yugoslav uniform.

9 Q. Once you were mobilised, where did you go and where did you

10 usually spend your time after that?

11 A. I went to the local community of Prelovo.

12 Q. Was it there that you were issued a weapon?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you go somewhere else from there?

15 A. We did, slowly, in order, towards Rujiste.

16 Q. Would you please repeat the name of the locality? We don't have

17 it in the record. We do now. Where is Rujiste?

18 A. The place where our positions were.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, I don't want to stop you from bringing

20 in something which you may think is important, but --

21 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE HUNT: -- your case is really in response here to the

23 additional material which the Prosecution was allowed to call in reopening

24 its case. Now, this doesn't seem to me to have any relevance to that at

25 all. If you think, however, that it's something very important to your

Page 4583

1 case, we wouldn't stop you from proceeding, but I think we really do need

2 to know why we're hearing this.

3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I thought that I would

4 cover these preliminary issues much faster. This was just an

5 introduction. My idea was to elicit from the witness the information

6 about his residence at the relevant times. Let me try and wind this up.

7 Q. Mr. Djuric, you were in the vicinity of the village of Rujiste at

8 the time, on various locations, various positions. Were you at any point

9 in time called back to Visegrad in order to receive a mission, an

10 assignment, and go to a village? Could you tell us something about it,

11 please.

12 A. Yes. I was called back and told to go to the village of

13 Gostilja. My task was to inform them about a convoy which was supposed

14 to arrive the next day to transport them to Visegrad, and from there,

15 further on towards Tuzla, in buses. And this is what I did. I went

16 there. I informed them about that, and the next day everybody was rounded

17 up on their own, of their own free will, without any force, according to

18 their wishes. And so that is where I was.

19 Q. Mr. Djuric, would you please concentrate on my questions and try

20 to be as brief as possible in your answers, and if necessary, I will ask

21 you for clarification so that your answers can be as precise and as clear

22 as possible.

23 So if I understand you correctly, at one point in time you were

24 called back from the front line and told to go to the village of Gostilja;

25 am I correct?

Page 4584

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was there anyone else with you? Did anyone else go with you on

3 that occasion?

4 A. Goran Ristic did, the two of us.

5 Q. What were you told on that occasion? What were you supposed to

6 say to those people in Gostilja?

7 A. That they should gather the next morning, that trucks would be

8 there to fetch them.

9 Q. When you say "the following morning," you meant the following day,

10 the next day?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So were you in Gostilja with trucks the following morning,

13 together with this person by the name of Ristic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How many trucks or other vehicles were there on that occasion?

16 A. There were three trucks and one --

17 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't catch the last part of the answer.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Now, the interpreters didn't get the last part of his

19 answer.

20 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Djuric, what other vehicle did you have in mind, apart from

22 these three trucks?

23 A. A Lada Niva, a passengers' car.

24 Q. Who was at the wheel of this car, at the wheel of the Lada Niva?

25 A. Ristic was, Goran Ristic.

Page 4585












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4586

1 Q. What about you? Where were you? In which vehicle?

2 A. In one of the trucks.

3 Q. Apart from you, the driver of the truck and Goran Ristic, were

4 there any other individuals in this group?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So you arrived in Gostilja in this Lada Niva car, accompanied by

7 three other trucks, and that was it, as far as I understand.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So what happened once you arrived in Gostilja?

10 A. The people had gathered, and then they boarded the trucks. As for

11 the Niva, we also used it for the father and the mother-in-law. It was

12 the Lada Niva that was used to transport these people.

13 Q. Would you please be more precise, Mr. Djuric. Who was transported

14 in this Lada Niva by Ristic from Gostilja?

15 A. He transported VG, VG117, and her parents-in-law, the one who had

16 a fractured leg.

17 Q. All others boarded the trucks that were in this group and you were

18 in one of those trucks; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know why Witness VG117 and her parents-in-law were

21 transported in this car, unlike others who were in those trucks? Do you

22 personally know that?

23 A. I do, because her brother-in-law was an officer. I don't know

24 exactly whose officer, in which army, but he was in Belgrade, and that is

25 why she had this privilege.

Page 4587

1 Q. Where did those vehicles go, and where did they eventually arrive?

2 A. They eventually arrived in Visegrad, in a local school, Vuk

3 Karadzic School, where those people were put up, but these people had a

4 different, separate accommodation, not the same one as others.

5 Q. Mr. Djuric, when you say they had separate accommodation, who do

6 you have in mind, please? Who are you referring to?

7 A. Well, everybody was placed in the gym, but they were in a separate

8 classroom.

9 Q. When you say that everybody was placed in the gym, you are

10 referring to the people who had been transported in trucks, but I would

11 like to know who was placed in the separate room, in one of the

12 classrooms.

13 A. VG117, her father-in-law, and her mother-in-law. They were placed

14 in this classroom.

15 Q. When you came to the Vuk Karadzic school, and after the people had

16 left the trucks, did they, I mean all of them, including the group which

17 was in the Lada Niva, did they spend some time in front of the school or

18 were they taken into the school, were they taken inside immediately?

19 A. They went inside immediately.

20 Q. At the time you arrived and at the time people started getting off

21 the trucks, were there any other people in the school or outside the

22 school?

23 A. Outside the school there was a group of about five or six people,

24 but there was no one in the school. There was no one inside the building.

25 Q. Those people who were in front of the school, were they civilians

Page 4588

1 or soldiers, and did you know any of them?

2 A. I know they were Muslims. They were there because they knew we

3 would come.

4 Q. When you say that they knew you would come, were they actually

5 waiting for someone?

6 A. Yes. They were waiting for their relatives. Those people were

7 their relatives who lived in town.

8 Q. Did you also remain in the school once they had been put up in

9 various classrooms?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Did you remain there for the rest of the day, and did you leave

12 the school building at any point in time?

13 A. It is possible that I left for a very brief period of time, but I

14 know that I spent there two nights and one day.

15 Q. When you say that perhaps for a little while you were away, what

16 time was that? What are you referring to exactly?

17 A. Well, perhaps about 10, 20, 25 minutes, something like that.

18 Q. Could you please tell us why would you be away for that time?

19 What were you doing during that time, those 20, 25 minutes?

20 A. Well, to get cigarettes, to go out and get something.

21 Q. So you spent that day there and two nights. Does that mean that

22 you spent the following day there as well?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you personally armed?

25 A. Yes, I was.

Page 4589

1 Q. Were you carrying weapons the same that you were carrying when you

2 were on your positions, or was this different, were these different

3 weapons?

4 A. The same weapons I had when I was on my positions.

5 Q. What sort of weapons?

6 A. An automatic rifle.

7 Q. Besides yourself, during that time, were there other people

8 carrying arms in the school? Were there policemen, were there soldiers?

9 A. No, there were no soldiers, with the exception of myself and

10 Ristic, and there were no other people carrying weapons.

11 Q. While you were in the school building, did the police secure the

12 school?

13 A. Yes, it did secure the school. It was, in fact, a patrol.

14 Q. What does that mean, on patrol, patrolling, Mr. Djuric?

15 A. Well, they were moving. They visited the town. They were not

16 located there.

17 Q. Please tell me: You said that Ristic was beside you. Did he also

18 remain there the entire time, like you, or not?

19 A. No, he didn't.

20 Q. If not, how long was he absent?

21 A. He was absent because he was driving the Lada Niva, and then VG117

22 returned to her village.

23 Q. Well, before we come to that, please describe how he returned and

24 where. You said that he had been driving. Did he leave before then, and

25 was he absent for any given time?

Page 4590

1 A. Well, he was absent for short periods of time. He was a driver.

2 Q. The people who came with you from Gostilja and who were put up in

3 this school, these people, could they move around freely? Were they able

4 to leave the school, come to the school, or did you have orders to make

5 this impossible for them?

6 A. They were free. They could move around freely. They could go

7 into town. No one, in fact, prohibited them from doing so.

8 Q. Were there also other people that came from town and who were also

9 participating?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Before you you have the name of the witness whom we referred to as

12 VG117 and about whom you said that she was with her parents-in-law. Did

13 you know her before that?

14 A. Perhaps. I know her from sight. I wouldn't know her now. And

15 perhaps I did know her.

16 Q. Did you know anyone else from that family?

17 A. Well, I knew her husband only.

18 Q. Did she herself leave the school, abandon the school, while you

19 were at the school?

20 A. Yes, she did. She asked me if she could go to try to find her

21 daughter, so as to have her by her side.

22 Q. Did she tell you why her daughter was in Bikavac?

23 A. Well, she was married there in Bikavac.

24 Q. Did she go and fetch her daughter?

25 A. Yes, she did, and she returned with her daughter. And the

Page 4591

1 daughter spent the night there with her.

2 Q. Did you see that personally? Did you see that her daughter had

3 come, personally? Did you see her?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Did you by any chance talk to her daughter?

6 A. Just in passing.

7 Q. Do you remember any particular detail which was characteristic,

8 which could characterise that meeting with her?

9 A. No.

10 Q. When I was referring to that, I meant how she was dressed,

11 something that would draw attention to her.

12 A. Well, the daughter was wearing a leather suit, and I advised her

13 in the meantime whether this was necessary, whether it was necessary for

14 her to wear that suit, or was that any -- was she wearing that for any

15 special reason.

16 Q. Can you tell us why you believed that wearing a leather suit was

17 not appropriate?

18 A. Well, because of her personal safety.

19 Q. Could you explain that, please.

20 A. Because at the time there were all sorts of people in Visegrad,

21 all sorts of armies that were unlawful, illegal.

22 Q. When you say, well, there were all sorts of soldiers, armies

23 around that were illegal, you mean not the regular army but you're

24 referring to some paramilitary formations?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 4592

1 Q. Could you tell us something about the family of the witness, the

2 daughter who had come, the parents-in-law. How long were they at the

3 school? Were you there while they were at the school?

4 A. Yes. They had spent the night. They couldn't find transportation

5 to go back, and her brother-in-law, he was not able to come from Belgrade

6 to take them over, so we took them to Ristici and Gostilja, where they

7 spent the night at Miloje's, and the next day they went to Zaovina.

8 Q. So if I understood you well, they had spent the night at school

9 and the next day Ristic took them to Gostilja. How did Ristic take them

10 to Gostilja?

11 A. He put them up at Miloje's. Joksimovics, they spent the night

12 there, and the next day they went to Zaovina.

13 Q. Were you with them or not?

14 A. No, I wasn't.

15 Q. Who told you that they had gone to Miloje's, and then that they

16 had proceeded the next day?

17 A. Well, Ristic told me that when he came back, that they had left

18 them at Miloje's.

19 Q. And this place that you're mentioning, Zaovina, where is it

20 located and what does it represent? I didn't quite understand it. What

21 is the name of the place that you mentioned that they left after having

22 been to Gostilja?

23 A. Zaovina. It's in Serbia. Zaovina.

24 Q. What did Ristic tell you why these people had gone to Zaovina?

25 A. Well, we knew that the brother-in-law would wait for them there

Page 4593

1 and would take them over, that he would come with his car, because he

2 couldn't cross the border there, and that's why.

3 Q. A while ago you said that Ristic said before that that he wasn't

4 able to find transportation. What was this about? What sort of

5 transportation was he supposed to provide?

6 A. Well, we had that one car, and we used it for all sorts of things.

7 Q. Does that mean that he had to provide another car, and since he

8 was not able to do, so he had to use the car in question; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The following day, when he had taken them, did the other

11 inhabitants of Gostilja remain at the school?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What part of the day was it? At what time was it?

14 A. It was in the evening.

15 Q. So following the departure of the people with Ristic, did you

16 remain at the school and spend the night at the school?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And how long did you stay at the school? Until when?

19 A. Well, until 10.00 the following day. Then I was ordered to return

20 to Rujiste.

21 Q. Does that, in fact, mean that you returned to the unit from which

22 you came two or three days earlier?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you returned to Rujiste, to your positions, did the other

25 people from Gostilja remain in the school?

Page 4594












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4595

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Djuric, I would like now to return to the first day when you

3 came to the school and when all those who had come were placed in the

4 school. Tell me: On that occasion, following your arrival, did someone

5 else come to the school or in front of the school and write down the names

6 of the people who had come to the school?

7 A. No, no one came to do that.

8 Q. Did you see in front of the school a table, some chairs, and at

9 one moment, if there were such people, was there anyone sitting at that

10 table and writing something down?

11 A. No, no one was sitting there and no one was writing down the names

12 of these people.

13 Q. You said that the whole time, with the exception of a short period

14 of time, that you had remained there. Could it have been possible for

15 someone to come and spend an hour or so there in front of the school and

16 write down these names without your being able to notice it?

17 A. No, this was not possible.

18 Q. Do you remember at all whether there was a table and chair in

19 front of the school at the time?

20 A. No, there was nothing there. There was only the entrance to the

21 school.

22 Q. The people who had come with you by trucks, did they spend any

23 time in front of the school or did they go into the school straight away?

24 A. They went into the school straight away. They put their things

25 there, their bags, and then they walked around.

Page 4596

1 Q. Can you confirm that other people could come and go as they

2 pleased from that school?

3 A. Not other people; just those people who were there.

4 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you something different. Do

5 you personally know Mitar Vasiljevic?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. How long have you known him personally?

8 A. From the fourth grade of elementary school.

9 Q. Could you be more specific? Do you belong to the same generation,

10 or do you know him from sight, or did you go to the same grade?

11 A. He was the generation older than me, but we went to the same

12 school.

13 Q. After you had finished school, did you continue seeing him?

14 A. Yes, naturally.

15 Q. Can you explain to us where he was living, what he was doing?

16 A. He lived in Kaleta. He worked as a waiter.

17 Q. Until the period of 1992, did you see him frequently?

18 A. Well, not really frequently, because I was in the field and he

19 worked more -- he worked in Visegrad.

20 Q. Did you know him well enough to be able to recognise him anywhere

21 you might see him?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you see him today in this courtroom?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Where is he, and is it the Mitar Vasiljevic we are referring to?

Page 4597

1 A. He is behind your back.

2 Q. Behind my back, you mean my back?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE HUNT: We don't want to incriminate one of the security

5 officers of the Tribunal, Mr. Domazet. I think you had better ask him

6 what Mr. Vasiljevic is wearing?

7 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You said behind my back. Can you tell us what he is wearing?

9 Perhaps you cannot see him from there.

10 A. He is wearing a white shirt, a tie, and a brown suit.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djuric.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I think we can accept that he's now identified the

13 accused.

14 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

15 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can you tell us, Mr. Djuric: In the period that you have

17 described, from the time when you were mobilised until the present moment,

18 when you were asked to go to Gostilja, did you see Mitar Vasiljevic on any

19 occasion or not?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So during that specific period of time, did you hear anything

22 about him?

23 A. I did hear something about him, that he was in town. We were 40

24 kilometres apart. That is the distance between Rujiste and Visegrad. I

25 heard a couple of days later that Mitar was in the hospital, that he had

Page 4598

1 fallen from a horse.

2 Q. When you say two or three days later that you heard that he was

3 in the hospital, what are you referring to? Two or three days after what?

4 A. When I said -- two or three days later, I heard that he was in

5 hospital.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat that. We didn't

7 quite catch what he was saying.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, the interpreters are still having

9 troubles.

10 MR. DOMAZET: Yes.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Would you please repeat. You said, "Two or three

12 days later I found out that he was in hospital." You said two or three

13 days after what did you hear that he was in hospital?

14 A. Two or three days before I went to Gostilja, I found out that

15 Mitar was in hospital.

16 Q. When you found that out, did you know that he -- how many days had

17 transpired before you learnt that he was injured?

18 A. A couple of days.

19 Q. Is that with reference to the day that you found that out?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember, by any chance, who told you that?

22 A. I can't tell you the name of the person, but you know how soldiers

23 are; they talk a lot.

24 Q. Does it mean that you heard about that while you were still in

25 Rujiste, at the front line?

Page 4599

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recall, by any chance, what date it was when you were

3 ordered to go to Gostilja?

4 A. I couldn't tell you the exact date, but it was about that time.

5 It was the harvest time.

6 Q. How do you know that, Mr. Djuric? Did you notice anyone working

7 in the field?

8 A. I know it because I was harvesting as well.

9 Q. You said when you were up there, that the people were working in

10 the field. Where exactly were you?

11 A. Well, the day -- one day before I went to Gostilja, the day when I

12 went to tell them that we would come the following day.

13 Q. Do you personally know in that area when is the harvest time?

14 When does it start?

15 A. Well, there's more than one season, and it also depends on what

16 you're harvesting. I think it is sometime in mid-June. That is the time

17 when people usually make hay.

18 Q. If I understand you correctly, you say that in mid-May people

19 begin to make hay.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Witness 117 said that it was on the 22nd of June, 1992, that they

22 went to school. Is it possible that was the date in question, as far as

23 you remember?

24 A. I'm sorry. I don't quite understand what you say.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, it may be an error in translation, but

Page 4600

1 the witness thought that it was mid-June, and then you said: "If I

2 understand you correctly, you say it was in mid-May ..." Now, I don't

3 want there to be any error --

4 MR. DOMAZET: No. It's a mistake. It was perhaps mid-June. Yes,

5 I saw that. Yes, yes. I'll ask it --

6 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you had better ask it again, unless you

7 suggest there is an error in the translation.


9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djuric, when you said that the people start

10 making hay sometime in mid-June, did you mean -- did you refer to the area

11 of Visegrad and that part of the country?

12 A. I said it depended; it depended on the kind of crop. There are

13 things that you have to cut or mow earlier, some other grasses cut later

14 on, but it would be thereabouts.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Let me go back to what I asked you a moment

16 ago and what you didn't quite understand. I was talking about Witness

17 VG117. She said that she had come from Gostilja to the school in question

18 on the 22nd of June. In view of what you have just said, would that date

19 be the one on which it happened? Could that be the date in question?

20 A. Well, once again, I don't recall the exact date, but it would have

21 been sometime in that period of time.

22 Q. You told us something concerning Mitar Vasiljevic, but let me ask

23 you once again: During those days when you were in Vuk Karadzic school,

24 did you at any point in time see Mitar Vasiljevic there, the person you

25 described today and whom you said you knew very well? Did you see him

Page 4601

1 there?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know the person by the name of Milorad Ivanovic?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Do you know where he's from?

6 A. He's from Paocici.

7 Q. Do you know who his wife is? Do you know her name and where she

8 is from?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Milorad Ivanovic from Paocici, was he in Vuk Karadzic school or

11 around the building? Did you see him there at any point in time while you

12 were there?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. You said that some police officers came. Can you remember, if you

15 happen to know any of them, who it was that came?

16 A. Like I said, their patrol came. I knew the one who was there with

17 me, Simsic and some other individuals as well.

18 Q. Could you be more precise, please. You said you knew Simsic.

19 Does it mean that one of the policemen who came to the school was Simsic?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. Who else do you remember? Who else came to the school while you

22 were there?

23 A. Well, you know how police work. After they finish their shift,

24 they leave. Sometimes they would come during the night, this patrol that

25 was visiting the area.

Page 4602

1 Q. Can you remember anyone else apart from Simsic, anyone else that

2 you knew personally?

3 A. You know how it was. Those people were beginners.

4 Q. When you mentioned Simsic, you said apart from Simsic and this one

5 who was there with me. Who did you have in mind?

6 A. But the one who's here.

7 Q. Were you referring to the witness who has come with you here, who

8 is here with you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. While you were with this group of people in Vuk Karadzic school,

11 before you went back to Rujiste, was there a paramilitary unit or a group

12 of people that entered the school building? Did they do anything that you

13 would have noticed?

14 A. While I was there, no one came.

15 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further

16 questions.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome.

18 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Groome:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Djuric. My name is Dermot Groome. I will be

21 asking you --

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. -- questions on behalf of the Prosecution.

24 Mr. Djuric, if at any time I ask you a question you feel that your

25 answer -- or answering it honestly may cause you problems or cause your

Page 4603












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4604

1 family problems, please bring that to our attention so that the Chamber

2 may deal with it.

3 Cira, your name -- most people know you by Cira; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And would it be fair to say that most people in Visegrad may not

6 even know your first name as Zoran but would certainly know you as Cira?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, I want to begin by asking you to tell us again with more

9 precision about your visit to Veliki Gostilja. Can you tell us where is

10 that village in relation to your village, Loznica?

11 A. Six, maybe five kilometres away, in the direction of the Serbian

12 border, in relation to Visegrad.

13 Q. And if you were travelling from your home to -- I'm sorry. If you

14 were travelling from the town of Visegrad to the village of Loznica, would

15 you have to pass the village of Gostilja?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You told us that when you were mobilised, you were sent to

18 Prelovo. Did you spend -- other than the time that you spent at the

19 school, did you spend the remainder of your service in Prelovo?

20 A. No. We were not in Prelovo. We were just mobilised there. There

21 was an office there.

22 Q. And when were you mobilised, as best you can tell us?

23 A. As best as I can tell, the 22nd, as soon as the Uzice Corps left.

24 Q. And that would be the 22nd of April?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 4605

1 Q. And during your time in Prelovo, did you ever see Mr. Mitar

2 Vasiljevic?

3 A. In Prelovo? I heard that he was with the kitchen, and I didn't

4 have any contact with the kitchen. They were further away.

5 Q. When you received your meals, did you ever see him delivering the

6 meals to the soldiers?

7 A. No. First of all, we didn't have any canteen. We ate on the

8 meadow.

9 Q. And who brought you your food?

10 A. Well, as far as the van could go, and from there, the food was

11 transported in dishes. But I don't know who it was who actually

12 transported the food.

13 Q. So do you know the names of any of the people who transported food

14 to where you were, outside of Prelovo?

15 A. They couldn't come as far as our positions. I know that Vojnovic

16 was driving this van, but who actually distributed the food, I don't

17 know.

18 Q. And can you describe that van for us, please.

19 A. Yes, I can. It belonged to the forestry. It had eight seats.

20 Now it is painted red, but at that time it was blue.

21 Q. Was there anything else unusual about that van that you can

22 recall?

23 A. I didn't understand your question.

24 Q. Was there anything unusual or particular about the van that you

25 can recall at this time? Was there any unusual damage to it? Did it make

Page 4606

1 any unusual sounds as it was driven?

2 A. Well, I never took a ride in it. I don't know.

3 Q. You told us about you advising a young woman that she shouldn't

4 wear a leather suit, and I believe you said that it was unsafe for her to

5 do so. Can I take it that you gave her this advice because you were

6 concerned for her safety?

7 A. Yes. I told VG117 - that's her daughter - that it was logical for

8 them not to wear too much make-up, you know.

9 Q. Could I ask you to tell us specifically: What did you fear might

10 happen to this young woman because she was wearing a leather suit or to

11 these other women who were wearing make-up? What did you believe might

12 happen to them, dressed in that manner?

13 A. See, in my opinion, a rape, for instance, could have happened.

14 Q. So then you must have been aware at that time that --

15 A. People are attracted by beauty, you know.

16 Q. Well, you must have been aware at that time that other women had

17 been raped in Visegrad; is that correct?

18 A. No, I didn't know.

19 Q. So prior to your giving these women this warning, you were not

20 aware of any women being raped or abused during this time period?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, you've told us that all sorts of armies --

23 JUDGE HUNT: If you've finished with that, before you go on, it

24 may be important, might it not, in order to judge the -- what weight we

25 give to this evidence what he means by a leather suit.

Page 4607

1 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: If we're worried about rapes.

3 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Was it trousers or what?


6 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to describe in a little greater detail what it

7 was about the leather suit, the way it appeared, that made you believe it

8 posed a danger for this young woman.

9 A. I don't have anything in particular in mind.

10 Q. Well --

11 A. [No interpretation]

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat his

13 answer. It's not very clear.


15 Q. Sir, I'd ask you, the interpreters are having trouble picking up

16 your voice. I'd ask that you speak a little bit louder and into the

17 microphone so that they can hear you a little bit better.

18 A. What did you say?

19 Q. Let me ask you: Was the bottom half of the suit, was it a dress

20 or trousers?

21 A. Well, when I say "suit," I mean a coat and a skirt.

22 Q. And the coat you're referring to, that was made of leather? Was

23 the coat made of leather?

24 A. Both pieces were made of leather.

25 Q. Was there anything in particular about this suit that you thought

Page 4608

1 would make it more likely that this young woman would be the victim of a

2 rape?

3 A. There was nothing in particular, but the danger was always

4 present.

5 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Let's go back a year before this. Had

6 you seen this young woman in May or June of 1991 dressed in the same suit,

7 would you have warned her and her mother that it was dangerous to wear

8 such a suit in Visegrad?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So explain to us: What did you know -- what was going on at this

11 time that made you give this warning to this young woman?

12 A. First of all, she was not a young woman. She was a married

13 woman. And the reason I gave my advice was because you cannot always

14 protect yourself. I just didn't want her to cause any trouble for

15 herself.

16 Q. Sir, you said around this same part of your testimony that there

17 were all sorts of armies in Visegrad, and you said that those armies were

18 not illegal -- were not legal, I'm sorry. Is it this group of people that

19 you thought posed a danger to this woman?

20 A. Yes. Yes, because of them. That is exactly why I said that.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us everything you can about the illegal

22 armies that you were aware of? Can you first tell us the names of the

23 different illegal armies that you were aware of?

24 A. As far as I know, first of all, I never encountered them. They

25 were located some 40 kilometres away. I was in Rujiste, they were in

Page 4609

1 Visegrad. I didn't personally know any of them, nor did I see any of them

2 or meet with any of them.

3 Q. When you testified earlier, I, for one, got the impression that

4 you had some direct knowledge about these illegal armies, so I'd ask you:

5 How did you know that there were these illegal armies in Visegrad?

6 A. It's not difficult to learn such things. People talk a lot. You

7 hear all kinds of things.

8 Q. Well, will you tell us what you heard about these armies? What

9 armies did you hear were in Visegrad?

10 A. Some kind of White Eagles. I don't know.

11 Q. Again, sir, I'd remind you: If there is something about your

12 answer that you think could pose a problem to you, to you or your family,

13 please advise the Court of your concern. Is the White Eagles the only

14 illegal army that you are aware of?

15 A. There was a number of them, but I don't know.

16 Q. Were some of them from -- or do you know where they were from?

17 A. We didn't know exactly. They had come from all parts.

18 Q. From parts in Bosnia?

19 A. No, no. From various parts of Serbia.

20 Q. Sir, your army that you were associated with, that was a legal

21 army; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You've told us about several orders that you received. Did you

24 ever receive an order, or are you aware of any soldiers such as yourself

25 receiving an order to go into the town and to disarm these illegal armies?

Page 4610

1 A. No one made any such attempts. The police was probably helpless.

2 MR. GROOME: Would that be a good place to break, Your Honour?

3 JUDGE HUNT: All right. We'll resume at 4.30.

4 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome.

7 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. Djuric, I'd like to return to the topic that we were talking

9 about before the break and ask you -- maybe over the break you've had a

10 chance to think about some of the paramilitaries that were present in

11 Visegrad, and let me ask you a few questions in that regard. Did you ever

12 hear of Seselj's men being in Visegrad?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you ever hear of a group referred to as the Chetnik Avengers

15 being present in Visegrad?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. Did you ever hear of any Serbian police being present in Visegrad?

18 A. No, I didn't hear about the police being there, no.

19 Q. Now, on this particular day, when you drove these people, or drove

20 with these people from the village to the town, did you see any

21 paramilitaries in the town on that day?

22 A. No. No, I didn't. I wasn't moving around town.

23 Q. Well, you did testify that you drove with the people from the

24 village of Gostilja to the town of Visegrad, to the Vuk Karadzic school;

25 is that not correct?

Page 4611

1 A. It's correct, but I was in the school building. I was walking

2 around the building, and none of them came while I was there.

3 Q. I'm talking -- I'm asking you to tell us: On the drive from

4 Gostilja into -- or to the school, can you tell us what paramilitaries you

5 saw on that day?

6 A. Well, I saw people I did not know. I didn't -- I don't know what

7 paramilitary formations they were.

8 Q. And the people that you saw that you did not know, were they

9 armed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And approximately how many people did you see that you did not

12 know that were armed with weapons on that day?

13 A. Well, I didn't see them in groups. One or two individually were

14 walking around.

15 Q. And were you afraid of these people?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you told us that you left the school for a brief period of

18 time and went to get a pack of cigarettes, I believe. Is that correct?

19 A. It was near the school.

20 Q. But you went to get some cigarettes, did you?

21 A. Yes, but it was near the school. It was close by. I didn't walk

22 around the town.

23 Q. What did you do for your food? How did you get food to eat during

24 your time at the school?

25 A. We ate out of tins, dry food.

Page 4612












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4613

1 Q. And who brought you that food?

2 A. Ristic, with his car.

3 Q. And he brought food for all of the people at the school or just

4 for you and himself?

5 A. Only for the two of us.

6 Q. There was no food in the building itself, in the school, was

7 there?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And would I be correct in thinking that at this point in time, the

10 area around the school was mostly deserted?

11 A. No, not deserted. There were people around. Basically Muslim

12 houses.

13 Q. So at the time -- or you're saying that -- strike that, please.

14 Are you saying that you saw Muslim houses or that you actually saw Muslim

15 people in the area around the school?

16 A. Muslims and their houses.

17 Q. And during the entire time that you were at the school, can you

18 give us an idea of approximately how many Muslims you saw in this

19 neighbourhood around the school?

20 A. Well, it's hard to say.

21 Q. You said that the people at the school were free to leave the

22 school; is that correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. During the time you were physically present at the school, can you

25 tell us how many people did in fact leave the school and go to town or go

Page 4614

1 to somewhere outside of the school?

2 A. Well, they went to visit their family. They went visiting.

3 Q. Do you know where they went? Was it in the town or in this area

4 of town?

5 A. In the area around town. They went to have something to eat.

6 Q. So approximately how many people from the school left the school

7 and went somewhere?

8 A. Well, they didn't leave completely. They would be away an hour or

9 so and then come back.

10 Q. Now, because of what you heard about the paramilitaries and

11 because of what you saw, you saw some paramilitaries that day, would you

12 have thought it safe for you yourself to walk into the town from the

13 school?

14 A. No. No.

15 Q. And I believe you told us that you were armed with an automatic

16 gun at this point in time; correct?

17 A. Semi-automatic gun.

18 Q. Would it have been safe for any of the people inside the school to

19 walk down to the town?

20 A. Well, they didn't go deep into the town, but whoever wanted to

21 would go.

22 Q. What I'm asking you, sir, is: Would it have been safe for, let's

23 say, this woman in the leather dress to have walked into town to buy a

24 pack of cigarettes or to buy some food? Would that have been safe for

25 her?

Page 4615

1 A. No, it wouldn't be safe, and that's why I was telling her not to.

2 Q. Would it have been safe for any of the people in the school to

3 walk down to the middle of town to get some food or to get some

4 cigarettes?

5 A. I don't know. It wasn't safe, but they went nevertheless.

6 Q. Approximately how many people were in the school during the time

7 that you were at the school?

8 A. About a hundred people.

9 Q. And of those hundred, how many left the school at a certain point

10 in time?

11 A. Well, they came and went. I didn't count them.

12 Q. Where were you when you received the instructions to leave Rujiste

13 and to go to the village of Gostilja?

14 A. Rujiste.

15 Q. Who gave you the order to leave Rujiste and to go to this village?

16 A. Command.

17 Q. I'm sorry, sir. Could you repeat your answer, please. Oh, the

18 command.

19 A. Command.

20 Q. Can you tell us his name?

21 A. Vinko Pandurevic was in command at the time.

22 Q. And he personally told you or gave you your instructions?

23 A. No, he didn't tell me that personally. He ordered it.

24 Q. Did you get a written order telling you what to do?

25 A. An oral order.

Page 4616

1 Q. And did Pandurevic say it to you himself or did someone else

2 convey it to you?

3 A. It was conveyed to me.

4 Q. By whom?

5 A. I can't remember. I was just told that we were going to Gostilja.

6 Q. Mr. Simsic, where was he at this time? Was he also in Rujiste?

7 A. No. He was in town. He was a police officer. If you're

8 referring to Simsic.

9 Q. I'm sorry. I think I mean Goran Ristic. Is that the man who went

10 to the village with you?

11 A. Yes. He was in Rujiste too. We were there together.

12 Q. Aside from you two, was anybody else given the order to go down to

13 Gostilja and to speak with these people?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Can you tell us, as best you can recall, precisely what was your

16 order?

17 A. Our order wasn't there as such. It was just a piece of

18 information that we were going to take the trucks and pick them up and

19 they should take their belongings with them.

20 Q. And the trucks were -- whose trucks were they?

21 A. Centrotrans's trucks.

22 Q. And where did you pick up the trucks? Did you go to the

23 Centrotrans building or wherever it was located?

24 A. No, because they passed through my village. We waited for them

25 there when they were on the way to Gostilja, because they had to pass that

Page 4617

1 way.

2 Q. When you received your orders, did you receive it by somebody

3 telling you who was present or did you receive it over a walkie-talkie,

4 some kind of radio device?

5 A. Yes, by a Motorola.

6 Q. Did you have a Motorola that was assigned to you?

7 A. Yes. In every trench there was one, one on ten people.

8 Q. And when you left to complete your order, your orders, did you

9 take the Motorola with you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did Ristic take a Motorola with him?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Whose Lada Niva was it?

14 A. We used it for the army, but I don't know who it belonged to.

15 Q. Did it belong to a Muslim?

16 A. I believe it belonged to the forestry company.

17 Q. Now, you said that you went to the village of Gostilja the day

18 before the people were picked up in the trucks; is that correct?

19 A. Yes. Then I returned home. I spent the night there and then I

20 went there with the trucks.

21 Q. And who did you go with to the village of Gostilja the day before

22 the people left in the trucks?

23 A. With Ristic.

24 Q. And how did you get there?

25 A. By foot, from Prelovo, and by truck to Prelovo, with our truck.

Page 4618

1 Q. I'm sorry. Are you saying that you went from Rujiste to Prelovo

2 on foot?

3 A. From Rujiste to Prelovo by truck; from Prelovo to my home on foot,

4 to Gostilja.

5 Q. Can you tell us how far it is from Prelovo to Gostilja by foot?

6 A. Three, three and a half kilometres.

7 Q. And were you armed when you went to Gostilja that night?

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 Q. And was Ristic armed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did either one of you have a Motorola at that stage?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What did you say to the people in the village on that night?

14 A. It wasn't night; it was daytime. We told them that we had been

15 informed to inform them that those who so wished should be prepared

16 tomorrow and that the trucks would be coming.

17 Q. And is it your testimony that the people were not required to

18 leave the next day; they were just being offered a -- they were being

19 offered transportation out of the village if they so decided or desired to

20 leave the village? Is that your testimony?

21 A. Yes. It wasn't done by force. Who wanted to would go.

22 Q. VG117, she says that she knows you by Cira Djuric, and you've told

23 us that your name -- or that people do know you by the name Cira. Do you

24 have any doubt that she is describing you when she describes two men

25 coming to her village the day before they left?

Page 4619

1 A. I don't know what she said.

2 Q. I withdraw that question.

3 Had you ever been to this village before the day that you told

4 these people that transportation would be provided for them? Were you

5 ever there before that day?

6 A. You mean during the war or before?

7 Q. I mean in just the few days prior to the day that you collected

8 these people in the truck.

9 A. No. No.

10 Q. VG117 said that you were there on a number of occasions looking or

11 asking about men in the village. Were you ever there asking about the

12 whereabouts of men in the village?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What village is Ristic from?

15 A. Djurovici.

16 Q. And where is that with respect to Loznica?

17 A. Below Rujiste, near the Drina.

18 Q. Going from the village of Gostilja, would they be in the same

19 direction or opposite directions?

20 A. The opposite direction.

21 Q. Where did you go after you left the village of Gostilja the day

22 before the people left?

23 A. What do you mean?

24 Q. After you told the people that tomorrow you would be there with

25 trucks to transport them out of there, where did you go?

Page 4620

1 A. I went home.

2 Q. Where did Ristic go?

3 A. Yes. We spent the night there and we waited for him that morning,

4 next morning.

5 Q. Ristic went to your house in Loznica and stayed there the night?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How did you know that the Centrotrans trucks would come to your

8 house and pick you up?

9 A. Because they pass next to my house. That is the direction they

10 pursue.

11 Q. Did you know that they would stop and pick you up the next day?

12 A. They had to stop.

13 Q. Why did they have to stop?

14 A. Because they knew that we would be waiting for them there.

15 Q. If these people were simply being offered a ride, why was it

16 necessary for you to return to the village the next morning?

17 A. For safety. That was the order. I don't really know.

18 Q. You say for safety. Is it your understanding that you were to

19 protect these people?

20 A. Yes. In any case, that was true.

21 Q. If your job was to protect these people, why did you not stay in

22 their village and protect them? Why did you leave them unprotected and

23 then return the next morning?

24 A. The commander knows that. I don't know.

25 Q. Did the commander tell you not to stay at the village to protect

Page 4621












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4622

1 these people?

2 A. There was no need for us to protect them.

3 Q. So if there's no need for you to protect them, doesn't that

4 contradict what you've just told us, that you were there to protect them?

5 A. It is a large village. We couldn't just the two of us protect it,

6 protect the whole village. Our position wasn't there. It was in Rujiste,

7 much further away. We weren't able to protect all the villages.

8 Q. So is it your testimony today that your order was to protect these

9 people, but because the village was so large, you and Ristic decided you

10 couldn't protect them and you went to your home and you both went to your

11 home in Loznica? Is that your testimony here today?

12 A. No. We didn't go to protect them, just to inform them.

13 Q. Well, if your job wasn't to protect them, let me ask my initial

14 question again: Why did you have to go on the Centrotrans truck to the

15 village the next day?

16 A. Well, I was told to do so, to help out, to see what they needed.

17 Q. When you say "to help out, to see what they needed", when you say

18 "they," do you mean the other people on the trucks or the villagers in

19 Gostilja?

20 A. The villagers of Gostilja. I'm referring to them.

21 Q. So are you telling us now that parts of your orders were to go and

22 to see what the people of Gostilja needed and to take care of what they

23 needed? Is that what you're telling us?

24 A. To help the old people. There were those that weren't able to be

25 present there.

Page 4623

1 Q. Now, is it not a fact that some of the people in Gostilja have

2 cars?

3 A. No. They used to have cars, but those who had cars had left

4 earlier. Only the old people remained.

5 Q. When the Centrotrans truck stops at your house and picks you up,

6 can you describe for us how many people were already on those Centrotrans

7 trucks?

8 A. When they were leaving Gostilja, when they were leaving Gostilja,

9 then they stopped by.

10 Q. Are you saying that you weren't at Gostilja in the morning when

11 the people boarded the trucks?

12 A. Yes, I was there.

13 Q. I'm asking when the truck picked you up in the morning before it

14 went to Gostilja. You said the truck picked you up at your house, and

15 what I'm asking you is: Who was in the trucks at that stage? Were there

16 other Serbs in the truck at that stage?

17 A. No. Only benches.

18 Q. Aside from the drivers of the three trucks, was there anybody else

19 in the cabs or anywhere in those trucks, aside from the drivers of those

20 trucks?

21 A. No, no one else.

22 Q. Where did you get or where did you first see the Lada Niva on that

23 day?

24 A. In Gostilja, at Miloje's.

25 Q. When you got into one of the Centrotrans trucks, did Ristic get

Page 4624

1 into the same truck or into another truck?

2 A. Into the same truck.

3 Q. The Centrotrans company, do you know whether that is owned by a

4 Muslim or a Serb?

5 A. I couldn't tell you that, because I didn't work in Visegrad. I

6 don't know who the manager was.

7 Q. Can you describe for us what happened as soon as you got to the

8 village of Gostilja?

9 A. Nothing happened. The people had already gathered. I mean, they

10 were -- some people were still arriving while we waited.

11 Q. Did you walk around the village to see if anybody was still in

12 their house?

13 A. Yes. I walked only to VG117's.

14 Q. And did Ristic also walk around the village looking for people?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Where was Ristic when you walked to the home of VG117?

17 A. He was near the trucks.

18 Q. Aside from you and Ristic, were there any other armed men in the

19 village that morning?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Why did you go to VG117's house?

22 A. Because of her mother-in-law. She was unable to come down the

23 stairs by herself. That's why.

24 Q. And how did you know this?

25 A. Because she had told me that when she was near the truck. She

Page 4625

1 told me that her mother-in-law couldn't make it.

2 Q. Her mother-in-law didn't want to come or that she wasn't able to

3 climb the stairs?

4 A. Yes. She wanted to come but she couldn't, and that is why we

5 went.

6 Q. Now, all of the people that wanted to leave Gostilja on this day,

7 did they all happen to be Muslim people or did any Serb people also ask

8 you to give them this ride to Visegrad?

9 A. They were all Muslims.

10 Q. Did any of the Muslims in the village say to you, "Well, thank

11 you, but I think I'll stay and return to their home"? Did

12 any of the Muslims do that?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So it just so happened that this voluntary transportation out of

15 the town, that all of the Muslims accepted your offer and all of the Serbs

16 declined your offer; is that not correct?

17 A. Well, the Serbs were not moving out; only Muslims were.

18 Q. And the Muslims were moving out because they wanted to move out,

19 is what you're telling us here today?

20 A. No. Not because they wanted but because of the politics.

21 Q. Sir, you realise that many people in the world consider this

22 ethnic cleansing. Do you yourself consider what you did that day, do you

23 consider it ethnic cleansing?

24 JUDGE HUNT: I wonder whether he should be given some form of a

25 warning before he answers a question such as that.

Page 4626

1 MR. GROOME: I'll leave that to the Court's -- the Chamber's

2 discretion, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: What's the Rule about whether he has to answer it or

4 not? There is one. I just can't remember the number of it at the

5 moment. 90(E), it is. If I gave him a warning that he was entitled to

6 object to answering it, the next question would be whether we would compel

7 him to answer the question, and I wonder where we're getting to with this

8 line of cross-examination.

9 MR. GROOME: Well, I would ask -- the Prosecution would ask the

10 Court to advise him that he does have the right to make the objection and

11 then maybe cross that bridge depending on his answer. It may be

12 unnecessary to discuss that at this juncture.

13 JUDGE HUNT: But where are we going with this, Mr. Groome? You're

14 entitled to test his evidence to the hilt, certainly, but why do we need

15 to know his view about what other people are doing or perhaps what he is

16 doing?

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, my position would be that it would

18 certainly go to his credit if he believed that he was involved in the

19 commission of a crime against these people, and I would be encouraging the

20 Court to disregard his testimony regarding the remainder of his --

21 JUDGE HUNT: Bearing in mind his answers to so many of the

22 questions so far, I wonder if it's necessary for that.

23 But Mr. Domazet, have you got the Rules in front of you there?

24 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour, I haven't at this moment, but I

25 know this, yes.

Page 4627

1 JUDGE HUNT: What do you suggest? He's your witness. Should we

2 warn him, and if so, what is your attitude to compelling him to answer it

3 if he declines to answer it?

4 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my suggestion would be

5 maybe to ask the witness, see if he can answer the question. You can warn

6 him and advise him that he's not obliged to answer the question, but maybe

7 he is in a position to answer the question.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then.

9 Sir, you, as a witness here, have a -- what is called a privilege

10 to refuse to answer any question which may tend to incriminate you. You

11 are being asked whether what you were doing -- you consider that what you

12 were doing amounted to ethnic cleansing. Whilst that rather vague phrase

13 has been bandied about now for some ten years, I don't know whether we can

14 say for certain how it should be interpreted as a matter of law, but it

15 clearly would, in my view, incriminate you if you agreed that what you

16 were doing amounted to ethnic cleansing. Now, as I say, you have the

17 right to refuse to answer that question upon the basis that you may

18 incriminate yourself if you answer it. Do you understand what I'm trying

19 to say to you?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, now, do you wish to object to answering the

22 question upon that basis -- the question was: Sir, you realise that many

23 people in the world consider this ethnic cleansing. Do you yourself

24 consider that what you did that day, do you consider it ethnic cleansing?

25 Do you wish to object to answering that question on the basis that your

Page 4628

1 answer may incriminate you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no answer.

3 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid you have to answer one question or the

4 other. If you say you do not wish to object to it, then I will tell you

5 to answer the question.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion, that was not ethnic

7 cleansing. It was a kind of help. I went there to help those people, not

8 to kill or ...

9 JUDGE HUNT: The degree of ethnic cleansing to which I think

10 Mr. Groome is referring is that you were forcibly moving those people from

11 their homes, not killing them.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Like I said, I didn't go there on my

13 own, of my own free will, but pursuant to an order.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid that still isn't an answer to the

15 question. If you answer the question that you think it was forcibly

16 removing those people from their homes, that may well incriminate you.

17 Now, do you wish to object to answering the question, if that is what is

18 involved in it?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I object.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Well, now, Mr. Groome, I have to say, I don't really

21 think his answer to the question will add to the quality of his evidence

22 or detract from the quality of his evidence, as it has already been

23 demonstrated. It's a matter for you. Do you want us to compel him to

24 answer that question?

25 MR. GROOME: Not at this time, Your Honour. If I could just ask a

Page 4629

1 few related questions and see where it may lead us.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I should hasten to add, as I understand it,

3 everywhere else except perhaps in your own country, an objection based

4 upon the fifth amendment cannot be used in order to draw unfavourable

5 inferences.

6 MR. GROOME: That's the understanding of the laws that exist in my

7 country, yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I thought that they did draw unfavourable

9 inferences. But anyway, you proceed with some other line of questioning

10 now. I don't think we'll get any further with this one.


12 Q. Do you know a woman by the name of Hajra Ramic from Medeze. And I

13 will spell that. The village is M-e-d-e-z-e.

14 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the answer.


16 Q. Can you please repeat your answer, sir.

17 A. No, I don't know her.

18 Q. That village, do you know where that village is?

19 A. What village?

20 Q. Medeze, M-e-d-e-z-e.

21 A. I've heard of that village, but I've never been there. It is in

22 the direction of Gorazde.

23 Q. So you never went to that village, and once again, offered some

24 help to the people in that village, or the Muslims in that village, to

25 leave their homes there?

Page 4630












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4631

1 A. No. No, except for Gostilja, I didn't go anyplace else.

2 Q. Now, the Vuk Karadzic school, that wasn't near the front line of

3 conflict in any way, was it?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And -- I'm sorry. Let me just ask a question about back in

6 Gostilja. Were you given any instructions as to what you were to do if a

7 Muslim family or any family declined the offer of a ride away from

8 Gostilja? Were you to report that to anyone?

9 A. It was up to them to decide. They decided on their own, because

10 they had expressed a wish to move out.

11 Q. What I'm asking you is: According to your orders, as you

12 understood them, were you to report any people that did not leave the

13 village, people that decided to remain?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And who were you to report the names of these people who remained

16 to?

17 A. To the command.

18 Q. So in order to be able to -- I'm sorry. Strike that. Were you

19 just to report the names of the Muslim people that remained or all the

20 people, regardless of their ethnicity?

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE HUNT: We've lost all the interpretation. I think you'll

23 have to ask him the question again.


25 Q. My question to you -- your answer wasn't interpreted, so I'm going

Page 4632

1 to ask you the question again and ask you to repeat your answer. Were you

2 just to report the names of the Muslim people who remained or of all the

3 people that remained?

4 A. No, it was not my duty. I didn't have that responsibility. That

5 was not the task that had been given to me.

6 Q. Are you saying that you did not have the task of reporting who

7 remained in the village?

8 A. No, I did not have that task.

9 Q. Mr. Djuric, just moments ago, didn't you say that you had the duty

10 to report that to your command?

11 A. I didn't.

12 Q. You didn't say that here just moments ago, that you had this duty?

13 A. There was no request to establish any statistics, to make a record

14 of all those who had gathered. We didn't walk around the village, we

15 didn't visit the houses, except for the home of VG117, to see who was

16 left.

17 Q. The village of Drulje spelled D-r-u-l-j-e, are you familiar where

18 that village is?

19 A. It forms part of Gostilja, actually.

20 Q. And how about the village of Vlahovici, V-l-a-h-o-v-i-c-i?

21 A. Yes, I know Vlahovici, but it is further away, away from

22 Gostilja. There was no one from Vlahovici.

23 Q. Did you ever go to the village of Vlahovici and assist those

24 people, or those Muslims, in leaving their home?

25 A. No. No.

Page 4633

1 Q. What was your understanding of your responsibilities at the Vuk

2 Karadzic school?

3 A. I understood them in a moral sense.

4 Q. Did you have any specific instructions from your commander

5 regarding what you were to do at the Vuk Karadzic school?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And what did you understand your duties to be in the moral sense?

8 A. In the sense that that was the way I should treat those people.

9 It was not their responsibility. They were not guilty of anything.

10 Q. Well, maybe -- help me understand this fact. If your command has

11 given you a specific instruction to help these people being transported

12 from their village into town and you have no specific instructions

13 regarding after that, isn't it your duty then to return to your command

14 and resume your duties as before?

15 A. My duty was to be there until further orders. I was taken back to

16 the line the next day, and the others remained.

17 Q. Mr. Domazet asked you the following question, and you gave the

18 following answer, and I want to ask you a question after I repeat this:

19 "Q. Were there also other people that came from town and

20 who were also participating?"

21 And you said yes. Did you mean that other people came from town

22 to the Vuk Karadzic school?

23 A. Yes. Other people came, but on foot. They came to inquire about

24 the convoy, about the departure time, because apparently they wanted to

25 join it.

Page 4634

1 Q. So the people that you were referring to in response to

2 Mr. Domazet's question were all Muslims?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Domazet asked you about your best memory regarding

5 when -- or what day this happened, and you spoke about harvest time. I

6 want to put the same question to you in another way. Did this occur

7 before or after St. Vidovdan Day, the Serb Orthodox holiday?

8 A. I don't know exactly when St. Vitus Day is.

9 Q. Even if you don't recall the precise day of the holiday, are you

10 able to tell us whether what you've described to us today occurred before

11 that holiday or after that holiday?

12 A. No, I'm not.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome, you should look at the transcript there,

14 because the two of you are using a different word. It certainly sounded

15 differently when he said it. I'm not sufficiently familiar with any of

16 those holidays to be able to say that they -- you are both referring to

17 the same one.

18 MR. GROOME: I apologise. I'll clear that up now.

19 Q. Is St. Vitus Day also known as Vidovdan Day, if you know?

20 A. Like I said, I don't know the date of the holiday.

21 MR. GROOME: Perhaps Mr. Domazet could help us.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, I know you've given us a list, and I

23 haven't got it with me at the moment. Are they both known as the same?

24 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Vidovdan is the 28th of June.

25 MR. GROOME: Is it the same as St. Vitus Day?

Page 4635

1 MR. DOMAZET: I think yes. Yes, they're the same.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


4 Q. Now, VG117, when she testified, said that some of the people at

5 the school were then brought to the fire brigade in town, do you recall

6 any people being brought to the fire brigade in town?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did there come a time when policemen or any Serbs came to the

9 school and brought some of the people anywhere, just brought them away

10 from the school?

11 A. While I was there, no, no one came.

12 Q. Was it your responsibility to prevent any of these people from

13 leaving the compound of the Vuk Karadzic school?

14 A. No. I was only told that they could go out to buy things for

15 themselves.

16 Q. And who told you that?

17 A. That is what the command told us.

18 Q. And at this stage you still do not have a Motorola; is that

19 correct?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How does your command tell you that the people are allowed to come

22 and go from the school?

23 A. The command was located in school, but not in the building of the

24 elementary school, but in the secondary school. That is where they were

25 quartered.

Page 4636

1 Q. Are you talking about your command or are you talking about

2 another command?

3 A. I'm talking about my command, the main command.

4 Q. And are you talking about the school here in Visegrad town or a

5 school somewhere up in Prelovo?

6 A. The local office was in Prelovo, but the main command was in the

7 secondary school in Visegrad. These schools are close to one another.

8 Q. And somebody from that command came over and said to you that you

9 were allowed to let the people come and go; is that true?

10 A. Well, they asked to go themselves, to buy themselves something.

11 They weren't locked up or anything.

12 Q. And before you allowed them to go, did you check with your command

13 to see if you were allowed to let them go and buy things?

14 A. They moved around quite normally throughout the town, wherever

15 they wanted to go.

16 Q. But sir, you've told us that your instructions from your command

17 were that they were allowed to leave. When did you receive those

18 instructions, and who -- or precisely what were those instructions?

19 A. Well, we told them that as soon as we informed them, and we were

20 informed to do so.

21 Q. When were you informed to do so?

22 A. While I was still in Rujiste.

23 Q. So you were told in Rujiste: Bring them to the school, stay there

24 until further instructions, and the people can leave if they want. Is

25 that correct?

Page 4637

1 A. Yes, that's exactly how it was.

2 Q. Now, VG117 saw a person she learned to be Milan Lukic. Do you

3 know who Milan Lukic is?

4 A. I've heard of him, but I didn't see him.

5 Q. During the time you were at the school, did anybody come to the

6 school and address the people there and identify himself as Milan Lukic?

7 A. During the two days I was there, no one came. Afterwards, I don't

8 know.

9 Q. Now, VG117 also described for us a certificate of safety that she

10 received from the police commander by the name of Tomic. Had you ever

11 heard or seen of these certificates of safety?

12 A. No. No, I didn't.

13 Q. The people who were gathered in the school, did you check any of

14 their identification papers or any of the papers that they had with them?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 Q. VG117 described for us a person whose name she knew as Cacanin and

17 says that he was also present at the school when she was brought there.

18 My question to you is: Do you know this person, and did you see him

19 there?

20 A. I don't know him. I didn't see him there.

21 Q. VG117 also told us about a conversation she had with Rade Dikic.

22 Do you know a person by that name?

23 A. Yes. He's from the village.

24 Q. And she said that Rade Dikic told her that the White Eagles, the

25 same paramilitary group that you've told us you heard was in Visegrad,

Page 4638

1 that they were there according to a plan and they were implementing a

2 plan. Were you aware of that fact?

3 A. I don't know what they were saying. I wasn't present there.

4 Q. Did you ever hear that about the White Eagles, that they were

5 there according to a plan?

6 A. Yes. I heard the name White Eagles, but whether they had a plan

7 or not, I do not know.

8 Q. Now, VG117 says it wasn't Mr. Simsic who brought her to the

9 school, but rather, Miloje, and you testified that you know about Mr.

10 Joksimovic; is that correct?

11 A. I know him. She spent the night in his house, because the Niva

12 was there.

13 Q. Was it him who brought her mother-in-law to the school or was it

14 Goran Ristic?

15 A. It was Goran Ristic.

16 Q. Why is it that the people who were going to leave town on this

17 convoy, why was it they were not assembled at the bus station or at the

18 centre of town but they were brought to this school at the edge of town?

19 A. I don't know. That was the order issued.

20 Q. In response to a question of Mr. Domazet, you said that people

21 would come during the night. Did you mean that people would come to the

22 school during the night?

23 A. Someone coming to school at night? I don't know who came to

24 school during the night.

25 Q. So it's your testimony that no one came to the school at night; is

Page 4639












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4640

1 that correct?

2 A. No one, until 10.00 or 11.00. People would come and go.

3 Q. Did the police ever come to the school at night?

4 A. Yes. They patrolled during the night, day. They would come,

5 look, and then they would go elsewhere.

6 Q. And were these local police that you recognised?

7 A. They were reservists.

8 Q. They were police reservists or army reservists?

9 A. Police reservists.

10 Q. And were they from Visegrad or from outside of Visegrad?

11 A. From Visegrad.

12 Q. And how many times during the night did these police reservists

13 come to the school?

14 A. Well, they would come several times, to see the town, to spend

15 seven or eight minutes.

16 Q. And did they actually enter the school during the night?

17 A. No. No.

18 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that on the day that you brought these people

19 to Visegrad, that Mitar Vasiljevic was in fact in front of the school, at

20 a desk, recording the names of the people before they entered the school?

21 Isn't that a fact?

22 A. No. No one recorded the names, nor was there anyone there.

23 Q. Did you count the number of people that were there?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So this convoy that was coming the next morning, nobody was

Page 4641

1 interested in knowing how many people were asking to leave Visegrad on the

2 convoy so that they could determine how many buses or trucks to bring?

3 A. Well, there were about a hundred. I don't know the exact number.

4 Because people from town would come. They would inquire. And people from

5 surrounding villages would come.

6 Q. Sir, prior to agreeing to come here to testify, you asked for a

7 guarantee from the Chamber that you would not be arrested or charged with

8 a crime while you were here testifying; is that not correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You never made such a request from the Defence?

11 A. Yes. I was asked, but I didn't make that demand.

12 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.

14 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Domazet:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djuric, in response to Mr. Groome's question

17 about the time when you were mobilised, you associated that with the

18 departure of the Uzice Corps, but according to what has been answered and

19 recorded, it was mentioned that this was in April. My question is: Can

20 you remember whether the Uzice Corps really left in April or in some other

21 month?

22 A. I think it was in April. I don't -- I can't really remember.

23 Q. Very well. You can't remember that. Do you associate your

24 mobilisation and departure with the time of departure of the Uzice Corps,

25 whenever that was?

Page 4642

1 A. I didn't understand your question.

2 Q. Well, I will repeat the question in a different way. Regardless

3 of when the Uzice Corps left, because you cannot remember the date, is it

4 true that you were mobilised in that time, or, in other words, at the time

5 when the Uzice Corps left, and that you were then mobilised and did the

6 things that you have described to us?

7 A. That is correct, because at the time, the mobilisation was not in

8 progress.

9 Q. Does it mean that a mobilisation of others and of yourself only

10 began when the Uzice Corps left?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In response to Mr. Groome's question when you spoke of the

13 supplies to the front line somewhere in Rujiste, where you yourself were,

14 you mentioned a kombi van and the name of the driver, that his name was

15 Obren Vojnovic. The question was: Who was with him? And you said you

16 didn't know. My question to you is: Do you not know that because you did

17 not know those people, or you were not in a position to see who, along

18 with the driver of the van, were bringing food supplies?

19 A. We were not in a position, because we did not actually -- we were

20 in inaccessible places, in brooks. Then they would bring food, then it

21 would be empty. Who was riding, driving, I don't know.

22 Q. Thank you. In response to Mr. Groome's question about the vehicle

23 and the colour of the vehicle, you spoke of one colour at one time and

24 another colour at another time, and the colour, the subsequent colour,

25 does it relate to this time or some other time? Did the colour change in

Page 4643

1 some other time?

2 A. Well, the van exists now. It is red and is used to transfer the

3 workers employed in Sumarstvo, in the forestry enterprises

4 Q. In response to Mr. Groome's question about Gostilja and the

5 behaviour of the people and how they understood what you were doing, you

6 provided some explanations, but I ask you to be more specific. My

7 question would be: Did you require all Muslims from the village to go

8 along with you in those trucks? Was that the demand? Or were the

9 inhabitants allowed to remain if they so desired?

10 A. Well, no one was forced to go; only those wishing to go.

11 Q. From the people that were with you, did you hear from them why

12 would these people wish to leave their homes at that point in time?

13 A. Well, they wished to go to Tuzla. That was their wish. Because

14 it was safer for them, because it became a Muslim territory, without

15 Serbs. They felt safer while the political war was going on.

16 Q. From your side or anyone's side, your side, whether it was said to

17 them that they were definitely moving, or was it done differently?

18 A. No.

19 Q. It wasn't ordered? It wasn't an order? They weren't ordered to

20 leave?

21 A. No.

22 Q. No, I wasn't referring to that, whether they had to or not, but

23 the question is whether at the time they were talking amongst themselves,

24 whether they would leave their houses definitely or only temporarily and

25 that they would eventually return to their homes.

Page 4644

1 A. I was told that they should be told to find provisional

2 accommodations, because the young people had already left and only the old

3 people remained.

4 Q. When you said young people left, does that mean that there

5 were no young people in the village left at the time?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you know where they had gone, these young people, and when

8 they left?

9 A. They went into the forest, into the woods, with guns.

10 Q. When you said that those that remained were scared and wished to

11 leave, who were they scared of? Did they say something about this to you,

12 or do you know something about it?

13 A. They weren't so scared and didn't say they were scared.

14 Q. You said that they also expressed a wish to go to areas that were

15 predominantly populated by Muslims. Did they say why?

16 A. They wished to move somewhere where it was safe, temporarily.

17 Q. Well, my question was - and you didn't answer it - why did they

18 feel that it was not safe for them in Gostilja, that it wasn't safe for

19 them to remain there?

20 A. Well, it wasn't safe because they were near the border with

21 Serbia.

22 Q. Does that mean that the fact that they were near the border with

23 Serbia, that there were people from Serbia who were coming from Serbia and

24 who could endanger them or could endanger them [as interpreted]?

25 A. Yes, that was the reason.

Page 4645

1 Q. Does that refer to what you said when you spoke about illegal

2 units or an illegal army, that those were people who came from Serbia?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In response to some questions of Mr. Groome's referring to

5 Mr. Joksimovic, it was said that VG117 had slept overnight there on the

6 way to the Vuk Karadzic school.

7 A. Well, there was a neighbour there. There were three or four Serb

8 homes, and all the rest were Muslim homes. And she spent the night at his

9 house and then she continued to Zaovina.

10 Q. Does that mean that Miloje Joksimovic's house was in that village?

11 A. It was in the village of Gostilja.

12 Q. Do you know whether they went to the Serb village, the village in

13 Serbia that you mentioned? Did they take a car or did you go on foot [as

14 interpreted]?

15 A. They went on foot, because there's no road there.

16 Q. Do you know how far this is in kilometres?

17 A. About two or three kilometres.

18 Q. One question in respect of the first day when you went to

19 Gostilja. In response to Mr. Groome's question, you said that it wasn't

20 in the night, in the evening; it was in the day. But you didn't say what

21 time of the day, what part of the day. What part of the day did you go

22 with Ristic to inform them that trucks would be coming?

23 A. About 10.00 or -- 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning.

24 Q. And the following day, besides going to the home of VG117, did all

25 the other people go by themselves to the place where the trucks were

Page 4646

1 parked?

2 A. They came by themselves.

3 MR. DOMAZET: I have no other questions, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

5 Thank you, sir, for coming to give your evidence and for the

6 evidence that you have given. You are now free to leave.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Domazet, your next witness, I understand,

9 you want protective measures for. What number are we up to with your

10 pseudonyms?

11 MR. DOMAZET: I think, Your Honour, that it will be VGD24.

12 JUDGE HUNT: 24. Yes. And facial distortion, is it?

13 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, only facial and -- no voice. No voice

14 distortion.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Have you got any problems with that,

16 Mr. Groome?

17 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: The witness that starts tomorrow morning will be

19 Witness VGD24. Tomorrow afternoon. I hope that by tomorrow afternoon

20 they will do something about the air conditioning in this courtroom.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, a couple of administrative matters to

22 take care of. Before the break the Chamber had asked us to provide a

23 redacted copy of Exhibit 113A, the report of Dr. Broeders. I will tender

24 that now into evidence. I will also ask the Court, I think there's some

25 confusion as to whether 113 is under seal. If it isn't, maybe it would be

Page 4647

1 sensible to place that under seal.

2 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Shall we give this the same number but

3 with a 1 after it.

4 MR. GROOME: Yes. I think we marked it 113A.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Very well, then. Exhibit 113 will be

6 under seal, if it is not already so, and the redacted version will be

7 Exhibit 113A. Have the passages that you have redacted from been noted on

8 any B/C/S version of it?

9 MR. GROOME: I don't believe there is a B/C/S version of it.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Isn't there?

11 MR. GROOME: I'll check that Your Honour, and have an answer

12 tomorrow.

13 JUDGE HUNT: It will probably be the first exhibit that hasn't had

14 a B/C/S version. But if there has been, it might be a good idea just to

15 mark it up on it, so there can be no doubt on the part of the Defence

16 which parts they should refer to in public and which they should not.

17 MR. GROOME: There's one other matter, it's regarding the

18 frequency of blood type A-plus in the normal population. The Prosecution,

19 using the Internet, has got that information from a blood bank. I've

20 shown it to Mr. Domazet, and we were prepared to enter into an agreement

21 that the blood type A-plus, that its frequency in the population is 32.3

22 per cent.

23 JUDGE HUNT: I knew it would be very large. It is the largest

24 one, as I understand it. But when you say "plus," you mean blood type A

25 RH positive.

Page 4648












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4649

1 MR. GROOME: Yes.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Right. We had better get it straight. It certainly

3 is the largest group.

4 MR. GROOME: According to this, it isn't, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Isn't it? Well --

6 MR. GROOME: RH plus is 38.4 per cent, so it's the second largest.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps things have changed since I had to worry

8 about these things. Perhaps that is why there are so many other systems

9 other than the A, B, C, O. We'll resume tomorrow at 2.30.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.01 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of

12 February, 2002, at 2.30 p.m.