1 Friday, 15 February 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-32-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Mitar Vasiljevic.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Domazet.
9 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: MITAR VASILJEVIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examined by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vasiljevic.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. Mr. Vasiljevic, let us continue where we left off yesterday. I
16 believe that your last answer was actually the explanation that you gave
17 to us about Witness VG117's description of her husband; that is, you
18 remembered her husband and you told us that you knew him as a customer.
19 Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. So it was according to her description, Mr. Vasiljevic, that you
22 were able to remember her husband, in particular, thanks to the detail
23 concerning her brother. Can you remember, at the time you waited on him
24 when he was a customer in your restaurant, did he come with his wife or
1 A. I waited on him several times, but I really cannot remember him
2 being with his wife on any of these occasions. I really cannot remember
3 any such occasion.
4 Q. One more question, Mr. Vasiljevic, about the restaurant located in
5 the vicinity of the Visegrad market. Is there a restaurant there that
6 would have been closer to the market in Visegrad, that is, closer than the
7 Panos restaurant?
8 A. At the very entrance to the market, there are two or three such
9 establishments, catering facilities, and there was the Borke restaurant,
10 in the direction of the Panos restaurant, and two smaller cafes before the
11 Panos restaurant, if you're going from the market towards the restaurant.
12 Let me also mention that all these places were significantly cheaper than
13 our restaurant.
14 Q. Mr. Vasiljevic, if you remember the testimony of VG117, you will
15 probably recall that she mentioned that when you were working in the
16 restaurant, that you would sometimes address her, that you would greet
17 her, exchange a couple of words. She also said that you would greet her
18 by using her maiden name. I'm not going to mention it, because she is a
19 protected witness, but you will probably remember that surname. Is that
20 correct, what the Witness VG117 said?
21 A. I said yesterday that I really couldn't remember waiting on her at
22 all. I mean, I cannot say that I -- for sure that I never, ever waited on
23 her, because, after all, I worked there for about 17 years, but I really
24 cannot remember her.
25 Q. Finally, you heard her testimony here before the Court when she
1 said that there was a person who was registering people in front of the
2 Vuk Karadzic school on behalf of the Red Cross organisation, and she
3 identified that person as being you, Mitar Vasiljevic. Did you personally
4 have any idea as to whom she might have been referring to? Because it is
5 your testimony that it was not you. If such an individual did exist, do
6 you have any idea who that might be?
7 A. Well, as I was listening to the testimony of VG117, I thought
8 about it, and it occurred to me that it could perhaps have been Stanimir
9 Zilic, also known as Crni, because I know that he used to work at the Red
10 Cross organisation, so I thought that she may have mistaken him for me and
11 hence gave such a comment.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, the evidence so far is that he wasn't
13 working for the Red Cross at that time. I'm not sure what the value of
14 this piece of evidence is anyway. You're asking the accused to
15 speculate. He doesn't know. We've had two people now who are suggested
16 to be alike to him in appearance, and there was no suggestion that this --
17 MR. DOMAZET: We have no translation, Your Honour. We have no
19 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, dear. Well, I'll start again.
20 MR. DOMAZET: Oh, I'm sorry.
21 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right.
22 MR. DOMAZET: It's my mistake. I didn't --
23 JUDGE HUNT: My point is this: The evidence so far is this man
24 Zilic was not there at the time. He didn't work for the Red Cross at that
25 time. And really, you're only asking your client to speculate. I don't
1 see that it helps us very much for him to say, "Well, it might have been
2 Mr. Zilic." You could certainly ask him whether people have mistaken him
3 for Zilic or Zilic for him, or something like that, but this doppelganger
4 point that you raised before doesn't seem to have come to any fruition.
5 It's a matter for you, but I really don't think that your client's guess
6 will assist us very much on this point. The real issue is whether there
7 was anybody there on behalf of the Red Cross. Now, the evidence that you
8 have led so far is that there was not. And that's a matter which we can
9 take into account. It's a -- your client's point is that he was in
10 hospital at the time. And that's really all he can say of his own
12 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was able to
13 establish that indeed Mr. Zilic did not work for the Red Cross at that
14 time. So I'm not trying to show that. However, we tried to identify a
15 person whom we thought might have worked for the Red Cross.
16 Mr. Vasiljevic thought about him, because he knew that he had worked for
17 the Red Cross, but he didn't know that he was not working for the Red
18 Cross at that time. That is the reason why we didn't even want to bring
19 him as a witness. It is not our case that the individual in question
20 worked for the Red Cross at the time. However, in view of what we
21 emphasised sometime ago and promised that we would try to find that
22 person, because we believe that such a person existed, I asked the
23 question that I just asked. That was the reason for my question.
24 Mr. Stanimir Zilic, according to the witness, had started working for the
25 Red Cross at one point in time, but he was not a Red Cross employee at
1 this time.
2 This was my last question for the witness.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Groome:
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vasiljevic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. Mr. Vasiljevic, we've heard quite a bit about how you may or may
9 not have known this woman and how well you may have known her, but the
10 truth of the matter is when that woman walked into this courtroom or into
11 the other courtroom, you recognised her, did you not?
12 A. See, it's -- it's like this: I really don't know the woman by her
13 name and surname, nor did I know that she was the wife of the person I
14 mentioned. I never knew that.
15 Q. Okay. I'm not asking you whether you knew her name. What I'm
16 asking you is, when she entered the courtroom just before testifying, did
17 you not recognise her as somebody that you had seen before in your life?
18 Is that not true?
19 A. How shall I put it? I don't know exactly. If I were to see her
20 in the street, I wouldn't recognise her as a person from Visegrad. I
21 don't know what to tell you. Of course now I have an idea of the -- I
22 know the family she belongs to because I used to know her father, and she
23 has somewhat similar features.
24 Q. Well, let's be clear. So your testimony here today is when that
25 woman walked into the courtroom, you did not recognise her and you did not
1 recognise her until such time as she began to describe features about
2 where she was born and her family. Is that what your testimony is?
3 A. Yes. If you should have asked me where she was from before she
4 gave her testimony, I wouldn't have known that.
5 Q. Okay. Now, she describes seeing you on the bus back to the area
6 where you both come from. Is it a fact that you from time to time would
7 take the bus from Visegrad up to your home village of Djurdevici to visit
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do you recall ever seeing this woman on the bus travelling to
11 the same area to visit her family?
12 A. There were seven bus lines; that's what she said. There was only
13 one bus, one service, that we used and only one road that this bus took.
14 Whether I saw her ever or not, it's very hard to say. Many people take
15 the same bus. I'm not trying to exclude any such possibility. That was,
16 as I said, the only service for this particular village, for the village
17 of Zupa, and we all took that bus.
18 MR. GROOME: Okay. Your Honour, at this time I'm going to ask
19 that the witness be shown Prosecution document number 130. It's a map of
20 the villages that we've heard testimony about.
21 The top four copies have a little green Post-it, just to orient
22 everybody's attention to the part of the map that I will be dealing with.
23 I would ask that the Bench and the accused be given the top four copies.
24 I ran out of Post-its.
25 JUDGE HUNT: It's nice to think that we get a privileged copy for
1 once, Mr. Groome. But you better show Mr. Domazet a copy so that he can
2 tell us whether he objects to it.
3 MR. GROOME: It's on the upper left-hand corner of the ...
4 JUDGE HUNT: Have you any objection to the tender of this
6 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. It will be Exhibit P130.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Mr. Vasiljevic, I would draw your attention to the top left-hand
10 corner. Djurdevici is just above where I've put that green sticker.
11 MR. GROOME: I know the Defence received one with a sticker.
12 Perhaps after Mr. Domazet is oriented, we could trade copies.
13 Q. I'd ask you to look above the green sticker. Can you see the
14 village of Djurdevici there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'd ask you to remove the green sticker now and to take the blue
17 pen in front of you. I'd ask you to draw a circle around your village.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. And I'd ask you just to put your initials inside that circle to
20 indicate that that's your village.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Now I'd ask you to draw a circle around the village of VG117, the
23 village that you went to school for your first four years. You can still
24 use the blue marker.
25 A. I'm sorry, I can't see very well. But I'll -- I'll try.
1 JUDGE HUNT: While that's being done, Mr. Groome, can you orient
2 us in relation to this top map. Where are we in relation to Visegrad?
3 It's hard to pick up on the second page.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if you -- actually, I just put the
5 second page for the scale, for the legend. So it is not a continuation.
6 But if you travel down the river, down towards the bottom of the map,
7 along the right-hand side of the river, you will see Kosovo Polje, which
8 is a place that we've heard about.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Thank you very much.
10 MR. GROOME:
11 Q. Now, VG117 talked about her -- I'm sorry. Can you tell us where
12 your family's property was, if it wasn't in the village. Could you circle
13 that on the map, if it's a different place than what you circled already.
14 A. I'm not sure I will be able to orient myself precisely on this
16 Q. Well, if you're not sure, before --
17 A. Well, approximately. But again, I'm not sure. Here, in this
18 part, in this area more or less.
19 Q. And it looks like you've drawn a dot. Does that dot represent
20 where your property is?
21 A. I don't know what this line means between these two places. I
22 know where Josovici [phoen] is, Nikolici, but this is not clear.
23 Q. Can you describe for us how far a walk is it from the village of
24 Djurdevici to your family's property?
25 A. Well, up to this property here, above, 30 to 40 minutes, perhaps.
1 Q. So to --
2 A. Maybe less. Maybe less.
3 Q. So to walk from your village to your family's property would be
4 perhaps 30 to 40 minutes or perhaps a little less; is that correct?
5 A. Let's say 30 minutes.
6 Q. [redacted]
9 Q. If you're certain about where a location is, then I'll ask you to
10 mark the map. If you're uncertain, let's not have you mark the map.
11 We'll just have you -- I'll ask you to describe where you believe it is.
12 Is your property in the direction of VG117's village?
13 A. Here, where this point is, is the area where Serb properties are
14 located, and beneath the village of Witness VG117 are Muslim properties.
15 Q. I'd ask you to indicate again for us where -- what you've just
16 told us. Would you indicate -- it's now on the overhead projector, so we
17 can all see it. Can you please indicate where the Muslim properties were
18 and where the Serb properties were.
19 A. These here would be Serb properties. I don't know what this line
20 stands for. And below this village there are Muslim properties. My
21 village would have been here, on the Drina, and then here, in this part.
22 This is the area where the Serb properties were, and further up are Muslim
24 Q. The dot that you've drawn, is that your best estimate of where the
25 Vasiljevic family property is?
1 A. You mean my property, my personal property, or ...?
2 Q. The property that belongs to your family, that you as a child
3 would go to and you would tend cattle there. Is that what you represented
4 when you drew the dot?
5 A. There are many Serb properties here in the area where my property
6 is located. I cannot pinpoint the exact location of my property. All I
7 want to tell you is that this is the area where Serb properties are
8 located, and my property was also there, and further up is the area where
9 Muslim properties are. Now, maybe here, more or less. I really cannot
10 pinpoint the exact spot. I'm not well versed in these matters. This must
11 be the creek, the brook, coming from the village above, this line.
12 Q. I'm just going to ask you to make a few marks on this map and then
13 we'll be finished. Would you draw a circle to indicate where the Serb
14 properties are. And if you would write "Serb" in your own language in
15 that circle.
16 A. May I just draw a line like this?
17 Q. Yes, certainly.
18 A. I don't think it will be very precise, but I think that it is
20 Q. As best you're able.
21 A. I really -- I apologise, but I have to ask you: This straight
22 black line, does it represent the brook?
23 Q. I don't know that --
24 A. Going -- or coming from the village above?
25 Q. If you're not able to tell us, Mr. Vasiljevic, then I won't ask
1 you to make marks. If you're able, then I will ask you. If you feel you
2 can make a mark where the Serb properties are, then I'd ask you to do so.
3 If you cannot, please tell us.
4 A. No, no, no, no, no. It's not the stream in question. This must
5 be a road. No. I'm sure I'm going to make a mistake.
6 Q. If you're sure you're going to make a mistake, please do not mark
7 the map, Mr. Vasiljevic.
8 A. I'm really afraid that I'll make a mistake.
9 Q. Okay. VG117 said the name of her family's property was Jela, or
10 J-e-l-a. Are you familiar with that place?
11 A. What did you say, sorry? Jela?
12 Q. VG117 said the property that her family owned was called Jela,
13 J-e-l-a. Do you know where the property that is referred to as that name,
14 that area, is located?
15 A. No. No. I know that my property is called Kadarici [phoen].
16 Jela doesn't ring a bell. I don't know. But the way names are given to
17 properties is -- for example, if I have three or four meadows in the area
18 of Kadarici, each one of them would have a name, but that is probably how
19 her family referred to their property.
20 Q. I'd just ask you to finish up with this diagram, or this map.
21 Would you put "117" to indicate where the village is that 117 came from,
22 and would you just write your name somewhere on the map so we know that
23 it's your work.
24 A. This is the village of Witness 117. I am referring to the entire
25 area of the village. I think that they would go in the direction of this
1 village. I'm not going to mention the name of the village. If this is
2 the entire area, I mean, her hamlet would have been here.
3 Q. We can't see what you're doing. You've drawn a circle to
4 represent her village. Would you simply put the number 117 next to it to
5 indicate that that's what you meant when you drew that circle.
6 A. Inside the circle?
7 Q. Anywhere near the circle is fine.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Okay. And if you would just write your name somewhere on the
10 map - anywhere is fine - so that -- down from your other markings.
11 A. [Marks]
12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome, we've now got, I think, four dots,
13 haven't we? Are there any of those that you want to have marked?
14 MR. GROOME: Given the imprecise -- or his statement that he is
15 sure that he was making a mistake, I think it's perhaps best that we
16 disregard those four dots, given the imprecision involved.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Right. So we've got his initials beside the top one
18 and "117" and "MV" written in the other circle.
19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
20 I'm finished with the map. Thank you.
21 Q. I just have a couple of more questions for you. How long would it
22 take you, as a child, to walk from your village to the school in VG117's
24 A. I'm sorry. There was a break in interpretation, but I think I do
25 understand your question. You're asking me how much time I needed to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 reach the village of Witness 117 from my village?
2 Q. Yes, from your home.
3 A. From the village where I was born?
4 Q. I'm asking you: How long would it take you to walk to school as a
5 boy? Give us an approximation of that.
6 A. It would take me one hour, because it's a hill.
7 Q. And am I correct in thinking that for at least four years of your
8 life, you were in VG117's village every day that school was open, give or
9 take some days that you might have been sick? Is that correct?
10 A. Yes. I apologise. I'll add some information. I never passed
11 through -- they're separate here. There's a little hamlet here. I never
12 passed through that hamlet when I was going to school. They're separate,
13 and very much so. I won't mention the name of this hamlet, but I never
14 passed through here, never through the hamlet. There, to the right,
15 towards this village here, the one above.
16 Q. The hamlet that you say -- or that VG117 lived in, was it closer
17 to your home or further away from your home than the actual village that
18 VG117 would have -- would have been the closest village to her hamlet?
19 A. It's parallel. It's like this.
20 Q. So please don't --
21 A. You can see -- my village is here, and it's like this. So you'd
22 go this way and this way. So it's more or less in this direction, if you
23 go as the bird flies.
24 Q. Would it be approximately the same distance from your home?
25 A. Yes, approximately, but you wouldn't take the same route she would
1 go to my home. She wouldn't go from here, where I went to school. She
2 wouldn't go from the school to my home, but she would go from here to my
4 Q. Now, I want to be clear on what your testimony is here today. Is
5 it your testimony -- let's assume that perhaps in your mind, VG117 is
6 mistaken about the date. Is it your testimony that you never were in
7 front of that school on any day recording the names of people and
8 representing yourself to be the Red Cross? Is that your testimony?
9 Forget the date for a second. I'll ask you that in my next question.
10 A. You're asking me whether I was ever in front of that school during
11 the conflict?
12 Q. At any time were you in front of that school, writing people's
13 names down in a book?
14 A. Never. Never. Never, sir. Believe me. I've told you.
15 Q. And we know from before where you say you were on the 22nd of
16 June. In the hospital; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. GROOME: I have nothing further, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination?
20 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.
21 Re-examined by Mr. Domazet:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vasiljevic, I would like to return to the
23 last question of Mr. Groome concerning the school to which you went.
24 Given your explanation that the place of this witness's home is at the
25 same distance from the school, my question will be precise. Did you go --
1 on the way to the school, did you pass near the house in which the family
2 of this witness lived?
3 A. No. My village is here. This is the witness's village. The
4 school is here in the village, so that means that I would take this
5 route. I apologise, the school is below this pass. I haven't marked it,
6 but it doesn't matter. So I'd go from here to school. And the witness in
7 the hamlet -- when I wanted to get from this village to the hamlet, I
8 wouldn't take the route that I used to go to the school.
9 Q. I have understood you, but I just want to know that in your
10 opinion, what is the distance from the pass that you used to go to school
11 to the hamlet in which the family of the witness lived, the nearest way?
12 A. It's about 1 kilometre from the school. But I never -- I could
13 never go through her hamlet, never, because it doesn't lead there.
14 Q. One of Mr. Groome's questions concerned the bus trip to
15 Djurdevici. Djurdevici is the place you were born in, but you lived in
16 Visegrad, you said. How often or how many times did you go to the village
17 of Djurdevici?
18 A. I went to the village of where I was born very often. I went by
19 boat, by car sometimes when I had a friend. I also went there by bus.
20 But what she has said, that we met on the bus, I mean that's not
21 interesting. I don't know what's interesting about it. That's the line
22 that we have to use. There are about 50 or 60 passengers on the bus at
23 all times. And I can say that for each person who is from that area. I
24 don't know. I've visited my family. It's the only route.
25 Q. Mr. Vasiljevic, apart from other ways that you could have used to
1 go to the village, by the Drina or by boat or by car with a friend, if
2 we're talking about a bus trip, can you remember more or less how many
3 times in the course of the year, on average, you went to the village by
5 A. Well, I can say that in summer I went more often, but not by bus.
6 When I worked in the fields in the winter, I would sometimes not go there
7 for two months or three, because my father often came -- or came to the
8 town more often, so we would see each other there. But I can't really
9 tell you how many times exactly. How do I know? I was born there. There
10 are various kombis. I didn't always have to go by bus. Sometimes with a
11 friend. I don't know.
12 Q. Good. I won't insist on that, then. It might be difficult to
13 reply to this at the moment.
14 A few more questions about these villages that you have marked.
15 Perhaps it will have some importance.
16 Your village of Djurdevici, was it a Serbian village or was it a
17 mixed village? Did both Muslims and Serbs live there?
18 A. My village was exclusively inhabited by Serbs.
19 Q. And the other village that you have marked as the place in which
20 the family of the witness lived?
21 A. Muslims alone. Muslims alone, a hundred per cent.
22 Q. And another thing: Could you have a look at the map that you've
23 been given by the Prosecutor and try to find the place called Velika
24 Gorica and to circle this place. Could you mark it in some way. Would
25 you -- do you need glasses perhaps? Well, if you had something, perhaps
1 mine would serve, because obviously he has some problems.
2 If you have found it, could you please circle it. Could you mark
4 JUDGE HUNT: We have another colour, which may assist.
5 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, maybe. Definitely better.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Could you mark "117" - below it - "-2" as the
7 place where she was married and where she lived, the witness.
8 A. [Marks]
9 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
11 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, what is it that is written underneath it?
12 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] It should state "117-2." But I
13 agree that it's not very legible.
14 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right. As long as we've got it recorded
15 on the transcript.
16 Thank you. That's the end?
17 Thank you, Mr. Vasiljevic. You can return to your usual seat.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE HUNT: Is that the conclusion of your case in response to
20 the reopening of the Crown -- of the Prosecution case?
21 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, as far as the
22 witness is concerned. But there are a few more written exhibits that I
23 would like to tender.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
25 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Above all, I'm not sure about this
1 map, if Mr. Groome doesn't suggest that it be entered as an exhibit.
2 JUDGE HUNT: It is. It is Exhibit P130. You did agree to it.
3 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. [Interpretation] Very well. I have -- I would
4 suggest that this certificate be entered as evidence, from the company
5 Panos, of the 23rd of January, 2002. I have a translation of this. And
6 it concerns evidence that this company has - about records this company
7 has about the fact that Vasiljevic, Mitar -- it has evidence about the
8 restaurants in which Vasiljevic, Mitar worked and also that he never
9 worked in the hotel Vilina Vlas. I will provide you with the originals
10 and photocopies in B/C/S and English. I will provide a significant number
11 of copies.
12 JUDGE HUNT: If you give a copy to Mr. Groome on the way, I think
13 it will save a significant amount of time.
14 MR. GROOME: Mr. Domazet has given me one before we started this
15 morning, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Have you any objection to the tender of it?
17 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE HUNT: I'm looking for my list of numbers.
19 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. I think it is D50, but I'm not sure.
20 JUDGE HUNT: D50? 50?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, D50 and D50.1.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. D50 and D50.1.
23 I may have got the wrong impression yesterday, Mr. Domazet, but I
24 thought that your client did say he actually did at times fill in at
25 the -- at the hotel that -- the Vilina Vlas hotel, but he didn't work
1 there regularly. It may have been a wrong impression.
2 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour. It was for restaurant Panos.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, yes.
4 MR. DOMAZET: He was talking about restaurant Panos, not for
5 restaurant in hotel Vilina Vlas.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Unfortunately, the new arrangements are such that we
7 haven't got our new transcript yet. The Registry seems to think that we
8 should be pressing buttons rather than CLSS about the transcript these
9 days, and it hasn't yet appeared electronically. So I can't check it.
10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] The second exhibit is a letter from
11 the Red Cross, the organisation in Visegrad, of the 23rd of January, 2002
12 at the request -- in response to the Defence request for lists, any lists,
13 of documents on the parties of convoys in 1992. We received an answer
14 which we are going to provide in B/C/S and in English. And in this
15 answer, it states that they don't have any such documents because all the
16 documents were destroyed on the 19th of 1996 when, in the neighbouring
17 offices, a bomb was placed and everything was destroyed, and the documents
18 were destroyed, too. So I would ask you to enter this as Exhibit D59 --
19 51. D51.
20 MR. GROOME: No objection, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. They will be Exhibit D51 and D51.1. Yes.
22 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] And further, Your Honour, in the
23 proceedings of disclosing documents by Mr. Groome, I received an expert
24 report from the institute, from the Dutch institute, on the medical
25 documents and on the case history, and this exhibit -- I have received
1 this exhibit, and it hasn't been entered as an exhibit by the Prosecutor,
2 so I have entered it as a potential exhibit, and I would ask this to be
3 entered as Defence Exhibit under the number D52.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Is there an English version or --
5 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. It's only an English version.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
7 No objection, Mr. Groome?
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no objection to any of the
9 reports done by the Dutch Forensic Institute. There was that other matter
10 of the radiologist from the Dutch hospital that we talked about. So I
11 don't have a copy of what we're actually entering into evidence at this
13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you'd better have a look at it. I think it's
14 all the attempts the Prosecution made to challenge the veracity of the
15 hospital records.
16 MR. GROOME: I have no objection, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That will be Exhibit D52. There is some
18 material at the back, which I think are the documents themselves, which we
19 probably have English versions of somewhere, I hope. Do we, Mr. Domazet?
20 These are the documents which were tested, you see. They're at the back
21 of the report. Are they already all in English -- all in evidence, with
22 English versions of them?
23 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Your Honour. There is a
24 translation. It's the case history, and it has been translated into
25 English. This is in the Serbian language, et al., the matter referring to
1 the expertise.
2 JUDGE HUNT: They do look familiar, but I just wanted to make sure
3 that we do have English versions of them, that's all.
4 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. [Interpretation] One other matter, Your
5 Honour. With the Exhibit 113A of the Prosecutor, which was submitted
6 yesterday and which is only a partially amended finding, there was also a
7 transcript which was submitted, which relates to the tape in dispute, for
8 which the Prosecution says is a tape of the witness, of the protected
9 witness, on page A, under 2250, which is where the transcript begins. In
10 my opinion, there is also a problem in that my expert, Krstic, also
11 noticed in his finding - and this is something that I personally
12 verified - in this first sentence it says: "I think that Mitar, Mitar did
13 quite a few things." If you listen to it carefully - and the expert also
14 noticed this - instead of "did," it says "said," which, in the Defence's
15 opinion, is very important, in case one should determine that this tape is
16 reliable and should be an exhibit.
17 And then thirdly, in the third line, where it says "Mitar," it
18 says: [As interpreted] "I said I didn't know that, but I knew that he led
19 the people to clean glasses." So in the English translation, it says
20 "glasses." However, the real expression is "carsija," which is sort of a
21 Turkish word, which is also used in the Serbian language and which means a
22 town, the centre of a town. So carsija, town, is something quite
23 different, whereas the translation, it says "glass," and in the B/C/S too
24 is says "glass," which is illogical. If you listen to it very carefully,
25 you can see that it says they are cleaning the carsija, the town.
1 So I would like this to be verified and I would like this version
2 of the translation to be corrected. Perhaps this part could also be shown
3 here again, because I think the translators will find it easier -- the
4 interpreters will find it easier to hear it and to interpret it. It's a
5 matter of two minutes, I think.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Have you arranged to have it played?
7 MR. DOMAZET: I have this, but --
8 JUDGE HUNT: Have you got it there?
9 MR. DOMAZET: I have it, yes.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it may be the safest way, although if you say
11 it has to be listened to very carefully, the circumstances under which we
12 have an instantaneous interpretation are hardly that. It may be best if
13 we asked the CLSS to take it away and listen to it very carefully, which
14 they can do, but not when it's being played here in Court, and then we can
15 get a report from them in relation to those --
16 MR. DOMAZET: Yes.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you should supply them with the translation
18 we have at the moment and ask them -- indicate the particular parts that
19 you want them to check and let them give us a report on it. That would be
20 the simplest way of dealing with it and probably the most accurate.
21 MR. DOMAZET: I agree. I agree, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Have you any problem with that, Mr. Groome?
23 MR. GROOME: I would agree with that as well, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. We'll ask the CLSS to do that. But
25 you had better supply them with the recording and with the transcript,
1 with those two particular matters highlighted in some way. I can
2 understand the second one seems to be obviously the correct -- what you
3 suggested seems to be obviously correct. The first one, I'm not quite
4 sure what significance you see in "he said many things" rather than "did
5 many things." I saw nothing particular sinister in the interpretation
6 that was already placed on it. But it's best that we have it correct, if
7 we can.
8 Well, now, apart from that, is there anything -- any other
9 documents you want to tender?
10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the exhibit that
11 Mr. Groome -- yesterday or the day before yesterday, he spoke about this
12 exhibit. It is the one about blood groups, which shows that the blood
13 group of the accused, according to the investigation in the Scheveningen
14 Detention Centre, is the same as the one in his medical history. He
15 hasn't tendered this into evidence. I would suggest that this be done,
16 but the only problem is that I don't have it here with me. I don't know
17 whether Mr. Groome will personally suggest this. I would suggest this to
18 be an exhibit.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Funnily enough, it was filed, I think, because I have
20 on my desk a copy of it as having been filed, and I wondered why on earth
21 I had been given it until I realised -- I thought it was for some
22 appointment he had over at the hospital, but it is dated last year and it
23 does have a blood grouping on it. Perhaps it should be tendered formally
24 rather than simply filed.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I raise this as a matter of fairness
1 with Mr. Domazet to -- it seemed to be an appropriate Defence exhibit and
2 it seemed to be a document that if I were sitting in judgement on this
3 case I would want before me. So I brought Mr. Domazet's attention to
4 these documents. Just before we started, I ran out to see if I could get
5 copies for Mr. Domazet. They haven't come back. Perhaps we either can
6 take a short break for me to get those copies for Mr. Domazet to tender or
7 we can take care of it in terms of an agreement, and I'd be willing to
8 agree that the blood result of the person in the Uzice hospital, their
9 blood was typed as A with positive rhesus factor, and that
10 Mr. Vasiljevic's blood, when it was tested in the Scheveningen prison, had
11 the same blood type, A-plus.
12 JUDGE HUNT: I am amazed that in this day and age please still use
13 the old A/B/O blood grouping. It's so general in nature. But still, it's
14 some evidence which Mr. Domazet can use. If it had been inconsistent,
15 then there would have been something about it.
16 Well, can you come to an agreement? Are you happy with that
17 agreement that Mr. Groome has offered, Mr. Domazet?
18 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honour, that this is
19 all right. If Mr. Groome and I agree with the blood group is A positive
20 rhesus, and this was established in Scheveningen and in other medical
21 examinations, so it won't have to be entered as a special exhibit.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we had yesterday some percentage given to us
23 for A, Rh positive, and we can simply note that he forms one of the 30
24 something per cent of the population, as did the person in the hospital.
25 Is that the lot now?
1 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your
2 Honour. And just one other thing. Mr. Groome, in the course of the
3 proceedings, submitted a calendar on Muslim religious holidays. I have a
4 calendar of Orthodox holidays for 1992, which I also gave to Mr. Groome so
5 that he could verify it, and I think it would be good to establish, on the
6 basis of this calendar, two matters: that in 1992, on Sunday, the 14th of
7 June, that day was an Orthodox holiday of the Holy Trinity, and on Sunday,
8 the 28th of June, it is St. Vitus' Day. That's also an Orthodox holiday.
9 And both of those holidays, according to the Orthodox calendar, are marked
10 in red letters, in the calendar that I possess. The calendar for the
11 month of June is being translated and you will have the original and the
13 JUDGE HUNT: It's interesting how many of the religions depend
14 upon red-letter days.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps I --
16 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
17 JUDGE HUNT: I gather that your Serbian calendar is being
18 translated for us. Do you want to actually tender it? We might as well
19 have it, seeing we've got the Muslim one now.
20 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HUNT: It will be Exhibit D53. And when the translation
22 comes, we'll distribute it.
23 Is that your case now?
24 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
1 Now, Mr. Groome, have you got a case in reply?
2 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE HUNT: That's the end of the evidence, then.
4 We made an order on the 28th of January that the parties' final
5 briefs are to be filed on the 25th of February. I remind you that you
6 have been under notice since sometime in November that you would have to
7 start preparing those briefs, so that is the reason for the shortness of
8 the time. We also issued a list of issues upon which we sought the
9 assistance of the parties. It may be that you've already, each of you,
10 considered those particular issues, but we wanted to draw your attention
11 to them particularly, because those are the matters where we see that we
12 really do need some assistance. We, of course, have not made up our minds
13 anywhere as to what the outcome of the case should be, but the particular
14 prospect that the alibi succeeds, if I may state it wrongly as to an onus
15 of proof, is a matter of some concern, because we would then have to know
16 what the Prosecution case was as to particularly the accused's state of
17 mind at the time he is alleged to have been shepherding people into the
18 house in Pionirska Street. The order on the 28th of January also fixed
19 the 5th and the 6th of March. That was after consultation with both of
20 you. Are those days still suitable to you for the final addresses?
21 MR. GROOME: Suitable to the Prosecution, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: How about you, Mr. Domazet?
23 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE HUNT: We look forward to seeing you on the 5th of March,
25 and we will now adjourn.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.04 a.m.