Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 605

 1                           Thursday, 1 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 6     IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Good morning, and as I indicated

 8     yesterday, I would ask for the appearances each time we resume.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Counsel's name is

10     Ms. Belinda Pidwell.  I appear for the Prosecution together with

11     Joanna Korner, my senior trial attorney on my right; and

12     Jasmina Bosnjakovic who is standing in for our case manager on my left.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the

14     Stanisic Defence Slobodan Zecevic, lead counsel.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Igor Pantelic,

16     Defence counsel for Zupljanin; with my co-counsel, Mr. Dragan Krgovic;

17     our legal, assistant Mr. Brent Hicks; and Mr. Eric Tully.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Is there anything which we need to address before

19     the first witness is called in?

20             MS. PIDWELL:  I don't think so, sir.  She has protective measures

21     with facial and voice distortion which has been set up already.

22             JUDGE HALL:  I think that was dealt with yesterday.

23             MS. PIDWELL:  Yes, and the technicians have set it up already, so

24     I think --

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Sorry for interruption.  My client just informed

Page 606

 1     us that they don't have translation.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  Shall we check that it's working.  Okay.

 3             There are some procedural matters which we'd like to raise at

 4     some stage during the course of this morning.  It may be more appropriate

 5     to do it after we hopefully conclude the first two witnesses so we don't

 6     keep them waiting, if Your Honours consider that's appropriate.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We've been alerted to those matters.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  The first witness for the Prosecution today is

10     ST-56.  The Prosecution had sought to have her evidence read through

11     92 bis, Rule 92 bis, but that was declined, and so we are calling her

12     viva voce this morning.  She has never testified before this Tribunal

13     before.

14             The Prosecution will call ST-56.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  She may make the declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS: WITNESS ST-56

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Yes.  I would first of all thank you for

22     agreeing to come to assist the Tribunal in its work, and secondly to

23     express our regrets for the inconvenience yesterday that circumstances

24     and time got away from us, and therefore you were not -- they were not

25     able to commence your testimony yesterday as was expected.

Page 607

 1             As may have been explained to you, the -- it has been agreed that

 2     your testimony is being given in such a way that your -- neither your

 3     face nor your voice would be recognisable by others outside the

 4     courtroom, and you would have observed that you were screened from the

 5     gallery as you were escorted in so that no one who is in the gallery can

 6     see you.  Thank you.

 7             Yes.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  Could you show this to the witness, please.

 9                           Examination by Ms. Pidwell:

10        Q.   Ma'am, could you please read the document that's been placed in

11     front of you, and without saying your name, can you tell the Court if

12     this is your correct name.  Just yes or no.

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   And next to your name do you see the number ST-56?

15        A.   I do.

16        Q.   And throughout these proceedings you'll be referred to by that

17     number.  Do you understand?

18        A.   I do.

19        Q.   Do you also see your date of birth on that paper?

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   And that's your correct date of birth?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   Could you please sign the sheet to confirm its correct.

24        A.   [Marks]

25             MS. PIDWELL:  I tender the pseudonym sheet, please, under seal

Page 608

 1     once it's been shown to counsel.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P36 under seal, Your Honours.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.

 4             I wonder, Your Honours, if we could go into private session just

 5     for the background information which will potentially reveal the -- the

 6     witness's identity.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 609











11 Pages 609-610 redacted. Private session.















Page 611

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

21             MS. PIDWELL:

22        Q.   When did you first become aware that tensions were strained

23     between the ethnic groups in your area?

24        A.   Before the war while my husband could still go back home, a bus

25     was stopped and all of the passengers were told to get off.  The bus was

Page 612

 1     searched for weapons and the passengers mistreated.  He arrived home

 2     somewhat terrified.  He said, Well, something seems to be wrong.  And we

 3     figured that it was probably that there were problems lying ahead.

 4        Q.   Ma'am, just for the benefit of the interpreters, we need to go

 5     slowly to make sure that they catch everything you say.

 6        A.   Very well.

 7        Q.   Do you recall the last time that your husband was able to come

 8     home?

 9        A.   Five months ago.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It is unclear.  Perhaps

11     the witness means five months prior to that.  We're uncertain.

12             MS. PIDWELL:

13        Q.   Are you able to tell us the month and the year?

14        A.   1992, the month of -- I don't remember.

15        Q.   Are you able to say whether it was in the first half or the

16     second half of the year?

17        A.   In the first half.

18        Q.   When did you first experience any shelling or bombing in your

19     area?

20        A.   On the 11th of June, 1992.

21        Q.   Can you describe what happened on that day?

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 613

 1     I'm not sure of the mechanics of how that's done.

 2        Q.   Ma'am, if you could try not to name the village.  If you could

 3     just say "my village," or "a neighbouring village," that will be enough.

 4     Thank you.

 5        A.   Okay.

 6        Q.   Sorry, before I interrupted you, you were describing how your

 7     village was shelled.  Did you actually see this?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   This was not the village that you were living in at the time, was

10     it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   How were you able to see the village?

13        A.   We climbed up on a hill, and we watched the village being

14     shelled.  We were watching from the village where I resided at the time.

15        Q.   Did you know people who lived in that village at the time?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   And are you aware of what happened to those people after the

18     shelling?

19        A.   Yes, I am.

20        Q.   Can you tell us, please.

21        A.   They were in the basement until dawn, when they left the village

22     and took to the forest to go to the neighbouring village which is in

23     Croatia.

24        Q.   What did -- did you stay in your village after the neighbouring

25     village was attacked?

Page 614

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Did everyone stay in your village, or was it just the women and

 3     the children?

 4        A.   Only women and children.

 5        Q.   Were there also elderly people there who remained in your

 6     village?

 7        A.   Yes, there were.

 8        Q.   And at some stage you felt it wasn't safe to stay in your village

 9     anymore.  What -- what happened to make you leave?

10        A.   We saw refugees coming in.  We took some of our basic belongings

11     and some food and took to the forest.  We were afraid, and we realised it

12     was unsafe to remain.

13        Q.   Did you see any soldiers or police in your area at this time, so

14     in the first part of 1992?

15        A.   Yes, I did.

16        Q.   Where did you see them, and can you describe them, please?

17        A.   We saw them coming to our village to loot.  They asked where our

18     men were.  They were in military uniforms, and I could not recognise

19     them.

20        Q.   You've told us that you took to the forest.  What do you mean by

21     that?

22        A.   We went there to hide.  We did not dare stay in the houses.  They

23     came immediately to loot and look for our men.  We simply took to the

24     forest with our children to hide.

25        Q.   So when you say you took to the forest to hide, does that mean

Page 615

 1     that you actually stayed in the forest and slept in the forest?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes.  One night we would sleep there, and then we would see

 3     that we were hungry, the children were hungry.  We would go back to our

 4     houses to prepare some food quickly and then we would go back to the

 5     forest.  It was raining.  The children were wet.  So that we would

 6     alternate between being at home and being in the forest, and we would

 7     constantly be on the lookout to see if somebody was coming.  That's how

 8     it was.

 9        Q.   And when you say "we," how many people are you referring to?

10        A.   Well, there was my mother-in-law, my sister-in-law, neighbours, a

11     couple of Croats from the neighbouring Croat village.  All of us were

12     there together, and there were perhaps -- we were not all in the same

13     group in the forest.  We were in separate groups, but there where we

14     were, there were approximately 30 to 40 of us.

15        Q.   And how long did you remain living like this in the forest?

16        A.   Two, two and a half months.

17        Q.   And there was one day when you went back to your house for one

18     last time.  Do you recall when that was?

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted).  So we grabbed our bags again to start fleeing once more,

23     and then a neighbour yelled out, "Go back.  Can't you see that there is

24     shooting?  They will wound you, and what will you do then?"

25             So we discarded our bags.  We went back home.  When we came close

Page 616

 1     to our houses, there was Serbian soldiers there waiting for us.  They

 2     asked us where we had been.  We didn't dare say where we had been.  We

 3     said that we went to our neighbours' to have coffee with them.

 4             One of the soldiers yelled, "Get ready, we're leaving."  I

 5     started crying.  I said, "Where are we going to?"  He started insulting

 6     me, cursing, saying this is not balija country, this is Serb country.  He

 7     cursed Alija, and then he said I was given an order that you had to

 8     leave.  And I told him, I don't want to go away from my land, from my

 9     home.  And he said, I was issued an order that you have to leave.  I

10     didn't take anything except my two children, my sister-in-law, my

11     mother-in-law, and we set out.

12             I had a brother-in-law --

13             MS. PIDWELL:  I just wanted to confirm that the place name was

14     redacted.

15        Q.   Could you describe the uniform that the soldier was wearing,

16     please.

17        A.   Multicoloured, multicoloured uniform.  I recognised one.  He was

18     my neighbour from the village where I was born.

19        Q.   Were the soldiers armed?

20        A.   Yes, they were, armed to their teeth.

21        Q.   Where did -- where did the soldiers take you?

22        A.   (redacted) the neighbouring village.  We went to

23     the gas station.  Before the war they started building a gas station

24     there, and they took us there and there were trucks awaiting us there

25     with canvass, with tarpaulin.

Page 617

 1        Q.   And when you say, "They took us," are you just referring to you

 2     and your family, or were there other people as well?

 3        A.   Yes, other people, too, who had been in their homes, who had been

 4     collected.  They also collected women who had gone to their homes to get

 5     a bit of food.  These women had left their children in the forest.  So

 6     they collected these women, whereas the children had remained in the

 7     forest with other adults who were hiding in the woods.

 8             Those of us who were in our homes were all collected, gathered,

 9     and taken to this location.

10        Q.   And at this location were you asked to get onto these trucks?

11        A.   Yes.  They asked us to board the trucks.  Those who couldn't

12     climb on the trucks were cursed at.  They kept cursing and insulting,

13     saying, This is our land.  This is Serb land.  You Muslims have nothing.

14     They cursed us all the way to the trucks, and then once we were on the

15     trucks they continued cursing us, "Balijas," and so on.  Those who were

16     able to get on the trucks did so.  Those who were unable, such as the

17     elderly and women, were beaten by them.

18             They beat them with rifles on the backs.  They would use force to

19     board the elderly and women on trucks.

20        Q.   Where did these trucks take you to?

21        A.   They drove us to Kotor Varos, first to a restaurant.  Once we

22     arrived in Kotor Varos, there was a restaurant there.  And before then

23     the people from the neighbouring village, (redacted), had been there.  So

24     they had arrived there first, and then we came to that restaurant.  And

25     once we got there, they said, "It's a bit stuffy."  The air was stuffy.

Page 618

 1     And then they took us on foot to Pilana, the sawmill in Kotor Varos.

 2        Q.   Just pause, please.  How far was the sawmill from the restaurant

 3     that you've described?

 4        A.   As far as I can remember, 50 to 100 metres.

 5        Q.   Do you know why you were taken to the sawmill?

 6        A.   We don't know.  They took us.  We went there.  We were all very

 7     depressed.  We felt down.  And then when we entered Pilana, it was

 8     horrible, because prior to us there had been other people there, and we

 9     saw their faeces.  We saw that people relieved themselves there prior to

10     us.  That's how we concluded that somebody had been there before us.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  If I could have 65 ter number 2201, please.

12        Q.   Do you see a photograph on your screen?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you recognise that building?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Could you please tell the Tribunal what the building is.

17        A.   This is the sawmill.  That's where we were.  That's the sawmill,

18     Pilana.  This is where timber was processed.

19        Q.   Was the sawmill operating when you were taken there?

20        A.   No.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  Could that be tendered, please, as a Prosecution

22     exhibit.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Marked with the next following number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P38, Your Honours.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  And if I could have 65 ter number 2202, please.

Page 619

 1        Q.   Do you see another photo on your screen?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Are you able to recognise the building or the area in that photo?

 4        A.   Yes, I can recognise everything.  That's where we entered,

 5     through this gate, as far as I can remember.

 6        Q.   So this is the entrance to the sawmill; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  If that could be tendered as a Prosecution exhibit,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked accordingly.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P39, Your Honours.

12             MS. PIDWELL:

13        Q.   You've described that you were taken to the sawmill, Pilana, by

14     foot.  Were there guards accompanying you?

15        A.   Yes.  They went behind us.  We went in front of them.  They were

16     also on the side of us.  And there were also people there awaiting us at

17     the gate and also inside.  They cursed us, insulted us.  We were so

18     scared that we didn't know where we were going, why we were going, what

19     was going to happen to us.  We were terrified.  We didn't know what was

20     going to happen to us.  I thought that I would never leave the place.

21     That's how it was.

22        Q.   The guards that accompanied you on foot from Kotor Varos, were

23     they the same guards that drove you in the trucks, or were they different

24     ones?

25        A.   Different ones.  The first ones probably continued on, but those

Page 620

 1     that took me to the truck, I never saw them afterwards, but I didn't

 2     really look at their faces.  I didn't dare.  I simply looked in front of

 3     me, and I don't remember anything.

 4        Q.   And were the uniforms of the guards who accompanied you on foot

 5     the same or different from the ones who had rounded you up in your

 6     village?

 7        A.   I don't remember.

 8        Q.   You've described a little bit about what it was like inside the

 9     sawmill.  Are you able to guess or provide a number of approximately how

10     many people were inside the sawmill with you while you were there?

11        A.   Well, approximately -- I don't know the exact number.  At the

12     time, there were 400, 500 people with us.  I mean women, children, and

13     elderly, but I'm not sure about the exact number.

14        Q.   When you arrived at the sawmill, was there someone taking down

15     your -- your name and your details?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   At any point during your detention there did anyone take down

18     your name and details?

19        A.   I don't remember, but I don't think so.

20        Q.   How long did you stay at the sawmill?

21        A.   Two nights.

22        Q.   Was there anywhere to sleep?

23        A.   I didn't sleep at all.  I sat on the concrete floor.  There was

24     sawdust around us, and I told you previously that people had also

25     relieved themselves there.  There was a broken-apart car there -- or,

Page 621

 1     rather, just the roof of the car, so we sat there, wherever we could find

 2     a place.  My children sat on my lap.  I sat there.  So it was horrible.

 3     There was sawdust, stench.

 4        Q.   Were you or was anyone given anything to eat during your

 5     detention there?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   I'm going to ask you now some questions about what happened that

 8     first night in -- in the sawmill.  You've said that there were a lot of

 9     people, approximately 500, in the sawmill with you, and your children

10     were with you.  What -- at some stage during the evening one the guards

11     came up to you.  Do you recall that?

12        A.   Yes.  Need I describe how he approached me?

13        Q.   Just pause, please.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Would you give us a moment.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Pidwell, we realise that we are coming to the

17     point in this witness's testimony where it may be very difficult for her

18     to be pulled through this again.  And so our first question is if you

19     need to go there.  And the second question would be to the Defence

20     counsels, if they take issue with the events that happened to this

21     witness in Pilana.  Because if the Defence counsels don't take issue with

22     it, then I don't think that we need to -- to.

23             But, please, Mrs. Korner.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I shouldn't have been because it's

25     Ms. -- but Your Honours asked for the witness to attend.  She can of

Page 622

 1     course be led through the evidence, but she still has to give that

 2     evidence, otherwise there's no evidence at all that she was raped, and

 3     that's why -- because she hadn't testified before.  She can, of course,

 4     adopt her statement, which will shorten matters.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That might be the way we should proceed.  But

 6     let's hear from the Defence counsels first.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I'm not -- I'm not sure I

 8     understand.  The witness is viva voce, and I believe Ms. Korner is quite

 9     right.  They need this evidence in -- in the record.  What -- what we're

10     suggesting now is that a part of her statement comes in.  I'm not sure

11     under which rule are we going to --

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  Mr. Zecevic, first of all, I've taken

13     notice of the fact that the Defence counsels seek to have her statements

14     admitted.  So I suppose that sooner or later her statements might be

15     brought into evidence.  That's the first observation.

16             My second observation is that if we can avoid having to pull this

17     witness through a very painful recollection of the events that happened

18     to her, then the Court would be satisfied not to ask her to do so.  But

19     of course Mrs. Korner is quite right.  She came here to testify, and of

20     course the Prosecution would otherwise be obliged to -- to address these

21     issues and take them up with the witness, but my only point is that if we

22     can avoid it, I would not mind.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, by all means we don't want to put any

24     burden on the witness at all other than the necessary burden that -- by

25     being a witness in the trial.

Page 623

 1             Now, if I'm -- if I understand you correctly, you're asking us to

 2     stipulate to these facts, which we certainly -- as far as I'm concerned,

 3     we cannot do that.  Now, if -- if the witness comes as a viva voce, I

 4     mean, that --

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, you need not go any further.  If

 6     your position is that you are not able to stipulate the fact, then we'll

 7     just proceed as planned.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:

10        Q.   Ma'am, you told us that during the course of the evening, your

11     first evening, at the sawmill you were approached by a guard.  Can you

12     describe the guard or the uniform he was wearing?

13        A.   As for the uniform, I don't remember.  He was 160 centimetres

14     tall.  I'm not sure.  Blonde.  He approached me.  It's been a long time.

15        Q.   Did he say anything to you?

16        A.   Yes.  He said -- first when he approached me he said to me -- oh,

17     he took another girl out, and then another one approached me, and he

18     asked me, Where is your husband?  I said, Abroad, and I told him where.

19     And he started insulting me, cursing me, and saying, All of them are

20     abroad and somebody keeps firing at us.  And then I just shrugged my

21     shoulders.  And then he asked me, How many children do you have.  He saw

22     that I had two.  I told him I had two.  He started again cursing,

23     insulting Alija, saying ugly things, and then he said, Did you really

24     need this third child?  And I just shrugged my shoulders.

25        Q.   Just pause, please?

Page 624

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Madam, if you need to take a break, we will

 2     certainly do so.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:

 5        Q.   Where did the guard take you to?

 6        A.   He took me towards the door.  As far as I can remember, there was

 7     stairs there.  He took me to a room on the left side, as far as I can

 8     remember.  I'm not sure, but I think that's how it was.  We went up the

 9     stairs, and then as I came up he opened the door to the room.  It was a

10     room.  I'm not sure what it was.  It was dark.

11        Q.   Did he carry a gun or a weapon of any kind?

12        A.   I don't remember since I didn't dare look.  My children were left

13     behind, and I said good-bye to life, to everything, and I don't remember

14     anything.

15        Q.   Was there anyone else in the room at this time?

16        A.   No.  Sorry, do you mean whether there was anyone in there before

17     me?

18        Q.   No.  Was there anyone in the room with you when you entered the

19     room with the guard?  Was there anyone else?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And what happened after you entered the room?

22        A.   Whatever happened, happened.  First he told me to take my clothes

23     off.  I refused, and then he said, I'll shoot.  I told him to do so, but

24     that I'm not going to make my clothes off.  Why should I?  I could never

25     even imagine that I would be raped.  I was afraid that he would cut my

Page 625

 1     baby out, that that is what my conclusion was.

 2             When he told me to take my clothes off, I started screaming,

 3     saying, I will not.  He told me not to scream.  I don't want to hear a

 4     sound from you.  Just take your clothes off.  Then I realised that there

 5     was nothing left for me to do.

 6             At that point, I realised I had some money hidden in the bra.  I

 7     can tell you exactly how much.  I wanted to give it to him, asking him,

 8     Don't do anything to me.  Take the money.  He asked where the money was,

 9     and I took it out.  I gave it to him.

10             He kept insulting me throughout that time, cursing, saying ugly

11     things.  He did take the money, but he said, Still you have to take your

12     clothes off.  I didn't want to.

13        Q.   Take your time.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I think we shall take a break.

15             MS. PIDWELL:  Yes, sir.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Madam Witness --

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps, sir, if I could ask the witness if she

18     would prefer to finish now.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We have ten minutes left.

20             MS. PIDWELL:  The witness wants to take a break.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We'll take a break, and normally the break would

22     be of a length of 20 minutes, but I suggest that we stay in touch with

23     the VWS and that we will resume when the witness is ready.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.05 a.m.

Page 626

 1                           --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, Mr. Pantelic, this is a -- I wish to

 3     return to a matter which came up just before the break, and whereas the

 4     Chamber appreciates that you have your respective instructions in terms

 5     of the defence of your clients, and without again saying the obligation

 6     of the Prosecution to prove the elements of the case that it is bringing,

 7     we don't quite understand your reluctance, although this -- the witness

 8     who is presently on the stand is giving evidence viva voce, the position

 9     of the Defence counsel in not stipulating the effect of her evidence in

10     terms of the sexual assault without requiring her to be led through the

11     details.  It appears to us, and of course we would need to hear from you,

12     according to your instructions, as I said, that no prejudice occurs to

13     either of the accused persons if this accommodation is made to relieve

14     the witness from recounting the details of what would have been by all

15     accounts a traumatic experience, because we don't understand the defence

16     case to be that the - and I don't wish to put words into your mouth - an

17     entire rejection of the events.

18             So our question is, is there some good reason why the Chamber

19     could not be content with the witness summarising the experience without

20     going into the details?  That's essentially the question.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the -- the position of the Defence is

22     that we really don't -- don't need to put the -- we don't want to put

23     the -- any burden on the witness.  We understand the situation, and we're

24     fully aware of the effect that this has to the witness.  So we are ready

25     to accommodate everything.  We don't need any details.  We don't need any

Page 627

 1     details.  It is just the position of the Defence that we cannot

 2     stipulate, because if we are to stipulate, then we should know what

 3     exactly are we stipulating.  That is our problem.  We cannot stipulate as

 4     a general matter the incident or the perpetrators or who knows what.  So

 5     that is why we were reluctant to stipulate to the witness testimony in

 6     that respect.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, I apologise for interrupting you,

 8     but I asked you a very clear question.  My question was why you -- were

 9     you ready to stipulate the events surrounding the rape of this woman,

10     because I -- I was anticipating exactly what happened, namely that we are

11     pulling this witness through a very, very traumatic experience, and sure

12     enough she broke down.

13             I don't see any -- as the Presiding Judge said, I don't see any

14     prejudice to the case of the Defence if the two counsel were to have

15     said, Okay.  We'll accept the fact that this woman was raped.  And not

16     having to pull her through the evidence that relates to that particular

17     incident.

18             This is not a question of stipulating in general.  This was a

19     very specific question.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I'm sorry, then.  I didn't understood

21     Your Honours.  Because, I mean, we're not contesting the situation that

22     she was raped.  Our defence is not that she was not raped.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Then why couldn't you accept that just a while

24     ago?

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Because, Your Honours, I want to be very clear on

Page 628

 1     what am I stipulating.  I cannot stipulate the incident.  Because if I'm

 2     stipulating the incident, I might be stipulating the perpetrator as well

 3     and his membership to a certain unit and -- and different other aspects.

 4     So that is why I cannot stipulate.  We will need ...

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The -- your concern, Mr. Zecevic, can be dealt

 6     with in your cross-examination, couldn't it?  We fully understand what

 7     you're saying about being careful as to what you're stipulating,

 8     especially inasmuch as this is a witness who is being led viva voce.  We

 9     aren't losing sight of that, but the concern that you just articulated,

10     that is -- can be safely covered in your cross-examination, I would have

11     thought.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  But I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm probably not -- I'm

13     probably missing something, because it is my understanding if I stipulate

14     to something, I mean, why would I -- then how could I cross-examine after

15     that?

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I assist?  We had this discussion

17     with His Honour Judge Harhoff some time ago about what could be

18     stipulate -- what could be agreed before Your Honours came on board, and

19     my suggestion was that in circumstances such as this, where the Defence

20     were able to say simply not, We accept everything that she says, but, We

21     do not dispute the evidence she gives.  In that way they're not put in a

22     position of accepting evidence which they may feel is prejudicial to

23     their clients and about which their clients know nothing.  It is not

24     suggested that either of these two defendants, accused, actually

25     committed these offences.  And so if that formula can be used, that may

Page 629

 1     be something that could be saved for other witnesses like this.

 2             As I say, it was a lengthy -- the subject of a lengthy discussion

 3     raised by Judge Harhoff in one of the Status Conferences.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, but at the same time, we -- we

 5     insisted that we sit down with our friends from the Prosecutor's side,

 6     and we -- we sort of defined what -- who is the policeman in 1992 in the

 7     territory.  That was our request, that we first define that, and after we

 8     defined that, then we can start negotiating about certain crimes and

 9     incidents.  I mean, as a matter of stipulation.

10             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honours, the position of the

11     Zupljanin Defence is the following:  We are very, very mindful about the

12     stressful situation that the witness is going through.  Of course this is

13     a Prosecution case, and it's up to Prosecutor which kind of evidence will

14     bring in this trial.

15             What I would suggest is that maybe the Prosecution, during his --

16     her examination-in-chief go very fast through certain events without

17     entering into details and saying -- and asking, What was happened?  Not

18     on which way with more details, et cetera.  This is a Prosecutor who

19     should, to some extent, should protect the witness against this stressful

20     situation.

21             And then this particular testimony will be a part of evidence

22     before this Trial Chamber.  Then we shall see whether Defence team will

23     cross-examine her on certain issues.

24             On behalf of Zupljanin, I can tell you that we are not going to

25     cross-examine this witness about these details, so we are not put her in

Page 630

 1     another level of -- of this stressful [Realtime transcript read in error

 2     "silly"] situation.  So it's very specific issue.  We have evidence on

 3     the record, and then we can deal with it.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

 5             Ms. Pidwell, that seems to be a helpful suggestion.  Do you have

 6     a problem with that?

 7             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, I was going to ask that I be

 8     permitted to lead the witness through what will be the balance of her

 9     testimony, which is simply the two rape incidents.  And she's prepared to

10     not be led, but if -- if it would assist the Trial Chamber and alleviate

11     the distress on her, then that may be a way through it.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, you had something to add?

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Just a correction to transcript.  I didn't say

16     silly situation, I said stressful situation.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Ms. Pidwell, you appreciate how we all

18     think you may now proceed.

19             MS. PIDWELL:  I think I have it, sir.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  My understanding -- Mr. Pantelic, my

21     understanding is that Ms. Pidwell will now ask the witness whether she

22     was raped again, and she can then say yes or no, and that's the end of

23     it.  Do we agree?

24             MR. PANTELIC:  I agree.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is that acceptable also to Mr. Zecevic?

Page 631

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Definitely, Your Honours.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Madam Witness, are you ready to resume?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, I am.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  During the break it was settled that the manner in

 6     which you would be questioned from this point on was settled, so I would

 7     ask you to listen carefully to counsel's question, and you needn't answer

 8     anything beyond what counsel asks.  Do you understand?  In other words,

 9     you needn't volunteer any details beyond the specific question that

10     counsel puts to you.  Do you understand?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, I do.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13             Ms. Pidwell, you may proceed.

14             MS. PIDWELL:

15        Q.   Before the break you told us that you had offered the guard some

16     money.  Do you recall that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   He refused that money -- sorry.  He accepted that money from you,

19     and it was approximately 3.000 marks; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And after that he took your clothes off you?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And then he raped you; that is correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And this rape lasted approximately 15 minutes; is that correct?

Page 632

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   During this rape this guard was also biting you on your body; is

 3     that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And once the rape had finished, the guard said something to you.

 6     Do you remember the words that he said?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you tell the Tribunal what words he used?

 9        A.   Sorry.  He didn't say anything, just the next one came in.  The

10     first one left, and the next one came in.

11        Q.   Did he pull up his trousers and leave at a point?

12        A.   I didn't care to watch.

13        Q.   Did a second man come into the room?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Was this man also a guard at the sawmill?

16        A.   I am not certain, although I think he was.

17        Q.   Was he wearing a uniform of any kind?

18        A.   I don't recall.

19        Q.   Did he say to you not to put your clothes back on?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And then did he rape you?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   When he'd finished raping you, did he then leave the room?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did a third man then come into the room?

Page 633

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did he ask you a question?

 3        A.   He did not.  He just cursed their Chetnik mothers, asking them

 4     what they had done to the woman.  He told me to put my clothes on and to

 5     go downstairs where I had come from, but he also instructed me not to

 6     mention the incident to anyone.

 7        Q.   Did you then put your clothes back on?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And did you go back downstairs to join your children?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you tell anyone about these rapes at that time?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   During the course of that night were you aware of any other women

14     or girls being taken away by the guards of the sawmill?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did the guards have cigarette lighters that they used to choose

17     the women with?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did they shine the flame of the cigarette lighter into the

20     woman's face and ask her to come with them?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Are you aware of any women that you knew who were raped in this

23     way -- sorry, who were selected in this way on that night?

24        A.   Yes.  I know all of them.

25        Q.   Are you able to give us an approximate number that you knew of?

Page 634

 1        A.   Approximately 20.

 2        Q.   You left the sawmill after staying one more night there.  How did

 3     it come about that you left the sawmill?

 4        A.   Some kind of a cross came.  I'm not sure whose cross or where

 5     from, but they discussed something among themselves.  They asked for our

 6     names, and I remember them saying, There are a lot of children.  And then

 7     they came in the morning with the buses.  They put us on the buses and

 8     took to Travnik.

 9        Q.   Were the guards at the sawmill of one particular ethnic group?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Which ethnic group?

12        A.   Serb.

13        Q.   And the people who were detained there with you, what ethnic

14     group were they?

15        A.   Croats and Muslims.

16        Q.   Do you recall seeing any men of military age detained at the

17     sawmill while you were there?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Were you ever arrested or charged with any crime before your

20     detention at the sawmill?

21        A.   No.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd ask if 65 ter number 720 could be put up on the

23     screen, please.  Thank you.

24        Q.   Ma'am, this is an extract from some minutes of the War Presidency

25     in Kotor Varos in July, the 8th of July, 1992.  If you look at the

Page 635

 1     document, are you able to see in the second paragraph, the second

 2     sentence which in English reads:

 3             "Due to problems in the work of the SJB, public security station,

 4     a decision has been made to use the hall in Pilana, sawmill, temporarily

 5     as a prison, and it has been recommended that all detained persons be

 6     transferred to the Pilana hall in future."

 7             Do you see that there?  Do you see that sentence there in the --

 8     in the document?

 9        A.   I don't understand.

10        Q.   Are you able to read the B/C/S version on the left-hand side of

11     your screen of the document, or is it too blurry?

12        A.   I can read it, but again I'm not clear on this.  Is it under

13     item 2?

14        Q.   I just want -- perhaps if I read out the sentence again.  It's in

15     the second paragraph under item 1, the second sentence:

16             "Due to problems in the work of the SJB, public security station,

17     a decision has been made to use the hall in Pilana, sawmill, temporarily

18     as a prison ..."

19             Do you see that written there?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   That's all right.  We'll move on.

22             When you were taken away in the buses from the sawmill, you were

23     taken to a town and then the buses were stopped.  Do you recall that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you were ordered off the buses at -- at a that time; is that

Page 636

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Who were the guards who accompanied you on the buses?  Do you

 4     know?

 5        A.   No.  The guards, Serb guards.

 6        Q.   Do you recall the uniform they were wearing?

 7        A.   As far as I can remember, multicoloured ones.

 8        Q.   By "multicoloured" do you mean camouflage?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And there was shooting by these guards once you got off the bus;

11     is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You were not injured at this time, were you?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Did you see any other people being injured at this time?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Were they shooting in the air or around the people rather than at

18     the people?

19        A.   Yes, around.

20        Q.   Did you get back on the bus, or did you walk somewhere else?

21        A.   We walked somewhere else.

22        Q.   How far did you have to walk until you were able to --

23        A.   I'm not sure.  Five to 6 kilometres, I think, but I'm not sure.

24        Q.   And your children were walking with you at this time?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 637

 1        Q.   And there were other women and children doing the same walk, I

 2     presume.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And when you got to the town that you were walking towards, were

 5     you met there by people of your own ethnicity?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Have you ever lived in your hometown in Kotor Varos again?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you see a doctor in the -- in the town that you walked to?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Your third child was born approximately one month later; is that

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you lose any other family members in the war?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Does your family live in the Kotor Varos area?

17        A.   How should I reply?  I don't quite understand.

18        Q.   Have you returned to live in your old home again on a permanent

19     basis?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  I have no further questions for this witness.

23             Please remain seated, and you may be asked some questions from

24     the Defence counsel.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Cross-examination.

Page 638

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  In order to avoid

 2     additional burden for the witness and possible repetition, we have agreed

 3     that the -- that the cross-examination will be conducted by one counsel,

 4     that is Mr. Krgovic.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.  We appreciate this way

 7     of organising cross-examination.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, madam.

11             Since you and I speak the same language, in order to avoid

12     disclosing your identity, I would kindly ask you to wait for me to

13     complete my question.  I will then turn my microphone off and then you

14     can give your reply so that your voice doesn't leak.

15             My name is Dragan Krgovic.  I'm one of Defence counsel, and I

16     will ask you some questions about your -- today's testimony.

17             In reply to one of the Prosecution's questions, you spoke of

18     tensions that appeared in 1992 in the municipality where you lived.

19     Would you agree with me that village guards were organised in your

20     village and neighbouring villages and that the guards were armed?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And when the guards were set up, the two sides, Muslim and Serb

23     and Croats, provoked each other, asking them why they had armed

24     themselves; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 639

 1        Q.   And just as in the neighbouring Serbian villages, in your village

 2     there, too, guards were organised comprising armed men.

 3        A.   You mean the Muslims.

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   And the guards were organised in your village, and the person who

 7     organised them and who was the defence commander, basically, was

 8     Rasim Cirkic.  Isn't that right?

 9        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember.

10        Q.   Was he married to your husband's sister?

11        A.   No.  I don't remember any of that.

12        Q.   Concerning these events, did you give any statement to the

13     Prosecutor in 1995?

14        A.   Yes.

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honour, if I may.  Sorry to interrupt.  I

18     think it may be easier, Your Honours, if we go into private session.

19     I've just seen the name of -- named guard from her hometown, which may

20     reveal the identity of the town and, therefore, the witness.  It may be

21     easier for this line of questioning that we go into private session so we

22     don't have to redact all the names.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Do you have a problem with that, Mr. Krgovic?

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  I don't have any problem with that, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE HALL:  So we go into private session.  Thank you.

Page 640

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted) 

Page 641

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 642

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             MS. PIDWELL: [Overlapping speakers] [Previous translation

12     continues] ... it's just the names of the towns keep on coming out.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there are about

14     20-some villages in that area, so by mentioning the name of the village

15     where the witness doesn't live is not something that can jeopardise the

16     protective measures.  But if the Chamber considers it necessary, then,

17     yes, we can go into private session.

18             JUDGE HALL:  I -- we take counsel's point, but out of an

19     abundance of caution, we'll revert to private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 643











11 Pages 643-648 redacted. Private session.















Page 649

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED ZUPLJANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I

 8     offer a sentence, a comment?  Your Honours, by your leave, I'd just like

 9     to say a sentence.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Well, you have an attorney.  Could we hear what --

11     Mr. Pantelic, your client seems anxious to say something.

12             MR. PANTELIC:  Well, my client would personally like to address

13     this Chamber regarding his personal sentiments about the events.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Is this related to the testimony we're hearing, or

15     is it some --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  Is this related to the evidence that we are

18     now hearing, or is it some personal matter about his conditions.

19             MR. PANTELIC:  No, no, it's not about his personal conditions.

20     It's just his feeling after this testimony that he would like to address

21     to the Trial Chamber and to make it simple as that.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Well, you would explain to him the procedure in this

23     regard and that he would have an opportunity to do that at the

24     appropriate stage.

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  My understanding was that he

Page 650

 1     was just -- would like to express his personal deepest sympathy to the

 2     witness about her suffering, simple as that.  That's my understanding,

 3     Your Honour.  It's not a procedural matter.  It's just a human matter.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we thank you for conveying that to -- through

 5     the Chamber to the witness on his behalf.  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.  He

 6     is still standing.  Is there -- oh, he's now resumed his --

 7                           Questioned by the Court:

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam, one question.

 9             You told us that on the 11th of June, 1992, the neighbouring

10     village was shelled and bombed.  You told us -- no, sorry.  The question

11     is, what was that village, a Muslim village, a Serb village, or a mixed

12     one?

13        A.   A Muslim, a purely Muslim village.

14             JUDGE HALL:  I have one question.  You have made several

15     references to -- from the time you were hiding in the forest, et cetera,

16     to the children being with you, and as distinct from the men of your

17     village.  In terms of the -- could you give an idea as to the -- I

18     suppose with respect to the male children, about what upper age are we

19     talking about?  Do you understand my question?

20        A.   Could you please repeat the question.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  I'm trying it get a sense of the --

22     distinguishing the men of the village from the male children.  How --

23     what were -- what would be the -- how old would be the male children who

24     would have been in the forest with you?  The oldest ones.

25        A.   The oldest boy who was with us in the forest?

Page 651

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  That's what I'm trying to get a idea of.

 2     Approximately, not exactly.

 3        A.   With us in the forest, in the group.  Is that what you mean, a

 4     boy from the group?

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yeah, what I'm trying to get a sense of - and I

 6     would repeat the question if you don't understand - is in terms of the

 7     distinction that you have made between the men in the village who, by and

 8     large, were not with you and the children, how -- at about what age --

 9     how old would the oldest boys have been with you when they were no

10     longer -- so that they were not away with the men?  Do you understood?

11        A.   Yes.  Perhaps 16 or 17.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13             Well, we thank you, madam, for coming to assist the Tribunal, and

14     you are now released as a witness.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Madam, before you leave, may I also take the

16     occasion to thank you, as the President has said, but in particular

17     express our appreciation of the courage that you have had to come here

18     and testify about the events, the terrible events that happened to you,

19     and also to express our empathy with all the pain that you have gone

20     through.  We wish you good luck in your future.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, there is a small procedural matter on

25     which we would wish your assistance.  You had shown to the witness a

Page 652

 1     document on which you, during your cross-examination as a previous

 2     inconsistent statement, but the document -- you would not ask that the

 3     document be tendered as an exhibit.  What is your -- we appreciate that

 4     the transcript would contain the specific questions that you would have

 5     put to the witness about the previous statement, but we were wondering

 6     whether it was an oversight on your part or that you didn't ask for it to

 7     be tendered.  Could you assist us there, please.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] He's not an oversight, Your Honour.

 9     I did not seek to tender this document on purpose.  I simply wanted to

10     use it to jog the witness's memory concerning certain facts and that

11     would be it.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, may I just before -- I don't know

14     whether Your Honours are intending to adjourn now.  I've lost track of

15     whether we're on next --

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Five past.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, the witness that I'm going to call,

18     who is the third witness, is due to arrive here at 12.00.  It seems to me

19     that it's highly unlikely we're going to reach him today because the

20     procedural matters may occupy a little time, and I think -- we feel it is

21     important it try to get this sorted out.  So I was wondering whether he

22     could simply return to the hotel to come back tomorrow.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That's the third witness.

24             MS. KORNER:  The third witness.  There's one more here.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  And we probably won't be able to finish

Page 653

 1     her -- maybe we'll be just about able to finish her by the end of this

 2     day.  And then so -- if we then on top of that have procedural matters, I

 3     think it makes sense.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  I'll make those

 5     arrangements, or hopefully those who are watching will make those

 6     arrangements.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, but hold on.

 8             Mr. Pantelic.

 9             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, maybe I didn't say it quite well.  The next

10     witness is will take in -- is not viva voce.  The next witness will take

11     in chief 15, 20 minutes, I believe.

12             MS. PIDWELL:  Approximately 20 to 30 minutes.

13             MR. PANTELIC:  And 15 minutes for both teams of Defence team.

14     Just for your information.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So --

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I still think in particular one of the

17     procedural matters that I raised which is this question of Rule 66(B) is

18     likely - on which there has been some motions filed, and I'm hoping we

19     can get this cleared up today - is likely to take a little time.  That's

20     the only -- all I'm saying is if Your Honours adjourn in ten minutes, so

21     we've got no more than the witness coming in and effectively being

22     introduced to the Court, we've then got half an hour in chief, let's say,

23     15 minutes.  That takes us up to 1.00 plus, and the procedural matters

24     will certainly occupy the time till quarter to 2.00.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 654

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Counsels, we would certainly like to begin the

 2     testimony of the last witness today if at all possible, and if --

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I can certainly stay, can I say that,

 4     and see where we get to?

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, I think we should because we will then try

 6     and see if it is possible, first of all, to go through the next witness

 7     fairly quickly, which I understand is possible if you're going to take

 8     20 minutes and Defence is also going to take 20 minutes.  Then we should

 9     be able to get through that witness fairly quickly.  And then the

10     procedural matters, which we are very well aware of, we don't think that

11     they may take too long time, which is why we would then venture into the

12     possibility of asking the Registrar if perhaps we could extend the last

13     session a bit so as to at least have the witness come and begin his

14     testimony today, and then maybe we can have half an hour with him, but

15     that would be half an hour save for tomorrow, because I think we're all

16     interested in having this witness complete his testimony by tomorrow.

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes, well, Your Honour, there are two matters.  One

18     is we have got severe witness problems as a result of matters that have

19     arisen about videolinks and the like.  We need to notify the Defence

20     tomorrow, and it may be because of the various complications, it's one of

21     the matters -- in fact, sorry, tomorrow - this afternoon at 4.00 of the

22     list, but because we're told now -- well, it's something I want to raise.

23     But it may well be we'll have to change the witnesses for next week.  So

24     we need to meet to sort that out immediately after this session.  And

25     it's one of the matters we're going to have to sort out.

Page 655

 1             The second -- I always think it helps if counsel wait -- and

 2     while one counsel's on their feet, but anyhow.

 3             The second matter is this:  I do want very briefly to renew my

 4     application that Mr. Hannis made yesterday, that in order to save time I

 5     may call this witness as a 92 ter witness.  And I want to do it in

 6     two minutes, but Mr. Hannis, I don't think, fully explained to

 7     Your Honour why we're asking this, and that would definitely shorten

 8     matters if Your Honours were to reconsider your ruling of yesterday.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  About the last witness?

10             MS. KORNER:  The last witness, yes.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Let's hear what Mr. Pantelic has to tell us.

12             MR. PANTELIC:  If I may assist, Your Honours.  The priority here

13     should be the witness because of his particular obligations about, in

14     order to avoid his stressful conditions, et cetera.  I think the

15     housekeeping matters, the procedural matters could wait a bit.  So my

16     suggestion is let's proceed with the witnesses without any procedural

17     issues, and then we could possibly extend time or find another, you know,

18     appropriate period to discuss these matters.  That's the position of

19     Defence, Your Honour.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks, Mr. Pantelic.  As far as I understand

21     what the Prosecution is saying, that is that the procedural matters have

22     to be dealt with today because they will affect the order of the

23     witnesses for next week.  So I guess we should deal with those today, and

24     the sooner the better.  But let's hear from Mrs. Korner again the reasons

25     why she wanted to bring up the issue of the mode of testimony.

Page 656

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, there are really -- there are two major

 2     reasons why we would -- we would wish to turn into 92 ter.  The first is

 3     this:  He has testified in full in the Brdjanin trial.  The -- I

 4     appreciate it's a late -- it was a late application, and the concern - I

 5     discussed this with Mr. Zecevic this morning - is that through the

 6     procedure of 92 ter the -- the transcript and the exhibits become -- come

 7     into evidence.  But as a result of your rulings yesterday, namely that

 8     unless the documents are on our 65 ter list, they will not be admitted as

 9     exhibits, at least at this stage.  That means the procedure will not

10     bring the documents mentioned by this witness into evidence.  Produce

11     them as exhibits, I should say.  They will merely be -- in fact, I was

12     going to show them to him and then somehow or other they would come in

13     under a different guise if at all possible.  That's another matter, and

14     we need to discuss this question of amending our 65 ter list.  So there

15     is that.

16             The second is this:  Our anxiety is that we wish to save as much

17     time because of the reduction that was made in the hours that we asked

18     for based on viva voce testimony, to save it for the witnesses who have

19     not testified before and whom we have to call in full as viva voce

20     witnesses.

21             To take this witness through his evidence again, effectively

22     following the identical line of examination-in-chief that was followed by

23     counsel on the last occasion is, we would submit, not very helpful to the

24     Court.  Again, he testified in 2002, I believe it was.  So his memory was

25     clearly likely to be better than it is -- than it is today, and I foresee

Page 657

 1     that we will have a lot of, Well, do you wish to refresh your memory from

 2     your statement, and I met him yesterday.  Your Honour, and of course,

 3     we're talking about him giving evidence of events 17 years ago.  I

 4     appreciate 2002 was only seven years ago, but it's still seven years.

 5     That's the first matter.

 6             The second matter, as I say, is we accept the limitation you've

 7     given to us on time, but we would like to use the time fruitfully for the

 8     Trial Chamber's point of view to call the witnesses who have not been

 9     called before and who we say are important, and that's the reason why I

10     say I renew my application.

11             Clearly, both Mr. Pantelic and Mr. Zecevic are ready to

12     cross-examine this witness.  They must be, because they known he's

13     coming.  So, as I say, if that's the only prejudice that relates to it

14     that Mr. Zecevic is concerned about, well, the documents won't come in

15     because they're not on our 65 ter list.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  Thank you, Mrs. Korner.  We will

17     deliberate on this matter in the break.

18             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Now, can I just --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I have one -- I have one question.  Did the

21     Prosecution highlight the relevant parts in this transcript?

22             MS. KORNER:  We can, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So it isn't done yet?

24             MS. KORNER:  It's being done.  It just hasn't been done

25     electronically.

Page 658

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay, thank you.

 2             MS. KORNER:  But it can be done electronically pretty quickly,

 3     and certainly by tomorrow morning.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honour, it has been decided yesterday.  What

 5     Ms. Korner, with all due respect, is doing is just repeating the

 6     arguments which were referred in Court yesterday.  I don't think that it

 7     deserves any additional attention because it has been ruled -- and the

 8     problem is the prejudice is created by the late notice.  It's simple as

 9     that.  The Prosecution had ample time to decide which way will they call

10     their witnesses, I mean, in between the pre-Status Conference and today.

11             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, Mr. Zecevic said this

12     yesterday --

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please, we have understood the issue, and

14     Mrs. Korner is trying to move for a reconsideration of that decision and

15     that's fair enough.  We know the arguments.

16             Mr. Pantelic, did you want to have the floor as well?  I thought

17     you indicated --

18             MR. PANTELIC:  On this issue, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  No, I'm sorry I thought you were standing up a

20     little while ago.

21             MR. PANTELIC:  No, no.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  We'll take the break now, but may I

23     remind -- or let me just bring up the issue of how to examine this next

24     witness again with the parties, because we are facing a similar situation

25     as we were facing this morning.  This next witness is also a witness to

Page 659

 1     testify about sexual assault, and the Chamber is extremely sensitive to

 2     the traumas and the extreme difficulty it is for these witnesses to come

 3     and testify.  So again could I put it to the parties that we simply avoid

 4     pulling the witness through an explanation of the assaults that she was

 5     subjected to and that the Prosecution will limit its questions

 6     exclusively to the question of whether or not she was raped, yes or no,

 7     and then that's the end of the story.  We don't need to go into any

 8     details.  And if any question need to be put about who did it, then of

 9     course the Defence counsel can put those questions.  You know, What sort

10     of uniform was the man who raped you wearing, and that sort thing, but --

11     but let's not go too far into any detail about the rape itself.

12             Is that an agreement that we can make?

13             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, I'm sure that this Trial Chamber is

14     absolutely assured about the approach of Defence on these sensitive

15     issues.  We showed that just during the testimony of previous witness.

16     And just for the record, I would say that we are deeply and very mindful

17     about the specific situation.

18             In addition to that, Your Honour, I'm not -- I don't want to deal

19     with the Prosecution case, but it's up to them to minimise -- using the

20     line of questioning to minimise the trauma of these kind of witnesses,

21     Your Honour.  And not to mention our previous submission on behalf of

22     Zupljanin, Mr. Zupljanin, that this kind of testimony and evidence is

23     absolutely not related to the case against my client.

24             If -- you remember well, Judge Harhoff, we were discussing that

25     issue in June.  If the Prosecution will abandon the theory, vague and

Page 660

 1     unfounded theory of third category of joint criminal enterprise and be

 2     focuses on the basis of European continental law related to the

 3     perpetrators, co-perpetrators, instigators, aiders and abettors, then we

 4     would be, Your Honours, situation not to have a listen and shorten the

 5     time of presentation [indiscernible], et cetera.  So simply, that's the

 6     position of the Defence.  The ball is in the Prosecution yard.

 7             Thank you so much for your attention.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  So we'll take the adjournment.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, the next witness for the Prosecution

12     is ST-12.  She has protective measures of pseudonym and voice distortion

13     and image distortion.  These were made in a previous case and were

14     confirmed by this Trial Chamber in 2005.  She has -- she will testify

15     pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  She has given evidence previously in the case

16     of Brdjanin, and her -- her transcript will be tendered.  She is a

17     Catholic Croatian woman who was born and lived in the municipality of

18     Kotor Varos before the war.  (redacted)

19     (redacted).  She was detained at that police station on

20     the 11th of June, 1992, as was her husband.  She was sexual assaulted

21     there in the presence of police and men in military camouflage uniform.

22     She knew the police chief, and she knew the commander of the special unit

23     who were in Kotor Varos at the time.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Should we have the witness hear your

25     introduction?

Page 661

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  At -- at your leisure, sir.  I was using the time

 2     that it took for the witness to come.  It doesn't form part of the formal

 3     record, I understand, and as Your Honours didn't want the formal

 4     statement, I thought it prudent to use that time.  I'm happy to repeat

 5     it.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I think -- Mr. Pantelic.

 7             MR. PANTELIC:  In order to protect the identity of witness, my

 8     learned friend from Prosecution mentioned something with regard to her

 9     husband, so I think it should be redacted because we were in public

10     session.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you.

12             MR. PANTELIC:  And also, Your Honours, I kindly ask our friends

13     from Prosecution.  We didn't react with previous witness when they will

14     leave the area of examination regarding the sexual assault, they should

15     avoid leading questions.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, as this witness is 92 ter, I'm not

18     proposing to lead any -- ask any questions about the sexual assault at

19     all.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS: WITNESS ST-12

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE HALL:  Madam, we thank you for your coming to assist the

Page 662

 1     Tribunal in its work, and the -- we have devised procedures to balance

 2     the rights of the accused men to a public hearing, on the one hand, with

 3     the concerns that persons giving testimony such as you would be giving --

 4     have given is -- does not cause undue distress, and therefore the screen

 5     behind you and the special microphone into which you would speak is such

 6     that you would be -- your -- neither your voice nor your face would be

 7     recognised by any of those members of the public who have an opportunity

 8     to observe these proceedings on -- by way of the television link or the

 9     persons in the public gallery.

10             Do you understand?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I do.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Pidwell.

13                           Examination by Ms. Pidwell:

14        Q.   Good afternoon.

15             MS. PIDWELL:  Could the court officer please take the pseudonym

16     sheet to the witness.

17        Q.   Now, ma'am, without saying your name could you please confirm

18     that your name is correctly written on that piece of paper?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   And is your correct date of birth also on that piece of paper?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   And next to your name do you see the letters and number ST-12?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   Throughout these proceedings you'll be referred to as that number

25     or simply as "witness" to protect your identity.  Do you understand that?

Page 663

 1        A.   I do.

 2        Q.   Could you please sign the pseudonym sheet.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd like to tender that under seal, please, once

 5     it's been shown to the Defence.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked accordingly.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P40 under seal, Your Honours.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:

 9        Q.   Ma'am, do you recall making a statement to the Office of the

10     Prosecutor on the 27th of September, 2000?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   And were you given the opportunity yesterday to read and review

13     that statement?

14        A.   Yes, I was.

15        Q.   And the only change that you requested to your statement was the

16     spelling of the name of a town that was referred to in your statement; is

17     that correct?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   Other than the spelling of the name of that town, do you confirm

20     that the contents of that statement are true and correct?

21        A.   I confirm that.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  The statement is 65 ter number 10011, and I would

23     ask that that be tendered into evidence under seal.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just one point of clarification, Your Honours.  Are

25     the proofing notes also a part of 92 ter package?  And if they are, they

Page 664

 1     should be given an additional -- additional number, no?  Exhibit number.

 2     I think they should be, because the witness provided additional

 3     information.  It basically saves time.  In our previous case, that was

 4     the -- that was the situation.  All the proofing notes were part of the

 5     record as well.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  It was the understanding of the Prosecution that

 7     the proofing notes would not form part -- would not become a formal

 8     statement and that if there were any additional matters that were raised

 9     in proofing that were not in the statement, they would be noted in the

10     proofing note and then that aspect of the events led through the witness

11     orally.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, but I'm just trying to be

13     practical here.  If the -- if the witness provides some additional

14     information, this additional information is in the proofing notes.  We

15     don't have the reason to doubt that our colleagues have done the proofing

16     diligently.  So if we -- if this -- if these proofing notes are part of

17     the record, then there is no need to go through the additional

18     information which the witness has to provide.  They can -- they can

19     become part of the record.  In the -- in the opposite situation where --

20     where the Defence takes the -- takes the issue with that, the Defence can

21     cross-examine.  And, therefore, I think we are saving time.

22             Thank you, Your Honours.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, with respect, it appears to us that

25     Mr. Zecevic's point makes eminent sense, and we agree that the proofing

Page 665

 1     notes should be exhibited with the next number in the -- in the series.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  I understand the practical result of that,

 3     Your Honour.  However, from the Prosecution's perspective it does mean

 4     that -- it does cause some practical difficulties in the sense that these

 5     proofing notes are often done without the assistance of an interpreter or

 6     with an interpreter who was not there for the entire time.  They have to

 7     be then read back and signed.  It involves more people in the process to

 8     make it a -- sort of a statement, which is what it really would be

 9     becoming, an additional statement.  And if the proofing note is tendered

10     on the basis that it's -- it's notes of the -- of the attorney or the

11     person proofing the witness rather than the witness's additional

12     statement, then -- then I would ask that that be considered with a new

13     ruling.

14             JUDGE HALL:  If I understand you correctly, you have some

15     concerns about the weight of these proofing notes in -- as contrasted

16     with the -- with the statement.  There's no real question about

17     admissibility, and therefore the matter of weight could be addressed at

18     the appropriate stage, and Mr. Zecevic's point about it being given a

19     separate number so that we know we're dealing with two different things

20     would put everybody on notice.  Isn't that the solution?

21             MS. PIDWELL:  If Your Honours are able to accept that on that

22     basis, absolutely.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the statement will become

24     Exhibit P41 under seal, and the proofing notes will be P42, under seal as

25     well.

Page 666

 1             MS. PIDWELL:

 2        Q.   Ma'am, do you recall giving evidence in the case of the

 3     Prosecutor versus Brdjanin in this Tribunal on 16 June 2003?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   And yesterday did you have the transcript of your testimony, both

 6     the questions and your answers, read back to you in a language that you

 7     can understand?

 8        A.   Yes.  It was read back to me in a language I understand.

 9        Q.   If you were asked the same questions today on the same topics,

10     would your evidence be the same?

11        A.   I would.

12             MS. PIDWELL:  The testimony of this witness in the previous trial

13     is 65 ter number 10010, and I'd ask that that be tendered under seal.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P43, Your Honours, under seal.

16             MS. PIDWELL:

17        Q.   There were some documents and one video that you talked about in

18     your prior testimony that we now have to formally put into the evidence

19     for this trial.

20             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, there were five exhibits which relate

21     to her prior testimony which are on the Prosecution's current 65 ter list

22     and are incorporated in Your Honours' decision that this witness can give

23     her evidence through Rule 92 ter.  Rather than call up each document and

24     present it to the witness, I submit that we could probably shortcut the

25     process by me simply asking the Registrar to call up the 65 ter number

Page 667

 1     and we can then admit it as an exhibit without the need for the witness

 2     to actually formally recognise the document each time, but I'm in

 3     Your Honours' hands.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Do either Defence counsel have a problem with that?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  We don't have a problem with that.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7             MS. PIDWELL:  The first exhibit is 65 ter number 2407.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That will become Exhibit P44.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  The second exhibit is 65 ter number 691.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P45.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  The third exhibit is 65 ter number 712.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P46.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  Fourth exhibit is 65 ter number 734 [Realtime

14     transcript read in error "374"]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P47.

16             MS. PIDWELL:  And finally, 65 ter number 2474.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P48.

18             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry, could we just make one correction to the

19     transcript, please.  Page 62, line 4.  The fourth exhibit is 65 ter

20     number 734.

21             Could I have Exhibit 65 ter number 2206 on the screen, please.

22        Q.   Ma'am, this is a photograph.  Do you recognise that building?

23        A.   Yes.  It is a police station in the place where I was born.

24             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps we could go into private session for this

25     witness for the next question.

Page 668

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 669











11 Page 669 redacted. Private session.















Page 670

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I repeat what I said.  Whether

 6     Your Honours were able to give me a ruling on my application for

 7     reconsideration for the next witness.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  It is a matter which we considered it yesterday --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  It's a matter that having considered it

11     yesterday and ruled, we do not propose to revisit it.  Thank you.

12             MS. KORNER:  Then, Your Honour, may I turn to the next matter,

13     which is an important matter.

14             At the moment, for next week we notified, I think, the Chamber

15     and the Defence of the witnesses who were going to come.  There's no

16     problem about the Monday.  There may be a problem about the witness for

17     Tuesday, whose number is -- in that it's the one that Your Honours issued

18     a witness summons for, and VWS are telling us that they may not, in the

19     time available, be able to get him here.  So we're waiting confirmation

20     of that because of the problems of getting a visa.

21             As regards Friday -- Thursday, sorry, ST-161, we applied for

22     videolink because of his medical history, and Your Honours haven't yet

23     ruled on that.  We couldn't apply earlier because we've had to reshuffle

24     many witnesses because of the ban, as it were, and also we had to get

25     up-to-date medical evidence.  We were told that it would take five days

Page 671

 1     to set up the link.  We're now told by e-mail yesterday by the court

 2     officer that it takes ten days.  So, at present, we don't have a witness

 3     at all for Thursday and Friday because he's viva voce.  He's brand new.

 4     And if we can't have the videolink set -- A, as I say, Your Honours have

 5     got to rule; B, they've got to set it up.  And the same regrettably

 6     applies to Monday's witness, and Tuesday's who's ST-0203.  Also medical

 7     problems -- yes, for the following week.

 8             So those are the instant problems.  I think the first thing we do

 9     is perhaps ask Your Honours to make a ruling, if at all possible, today,

10     and if at all possible to make a ruling that, although ten days may be

11     the normal time for setting up a videolink, it can't be beyond the wit of

12     man to do it in less time.

13             Those are the problems.  And if it can't be got over,

14     Your Honour, then we'll have to reschedule witnesses, why we're anxious

15     not to sit late today.

16             As regards -- the witness, sorry, for Tuesday is ST-181.

17             As regards the witnesses towards the end of this month, we

18     applied for a witness summons for ST-111 and ST-110.  And again,

19     Your Honours, we'd be grateful, because of the need for VWS to get

20     themselves together, I don't mean that rudely, I think, but obviously to

21     carry out their duties, we would need, please, a ruling very, very soon.

22             So those are the witness problems, Your Honours.

23             Your Honours, the next matter which is allied to it is we were

24     given notice, I believe, on Monday, if not Tuesday, that Your Honours in

25     order to make up for not sitting on the 16th of October wanted an

Page 672

 1     extended sitting, and you asked for submissions on that on Tuesday

 2     morning.

 3             The only problem with the way that Your Honours appear to want to

 4     do it is to sit through from 9.00 till 3.15 with only the normal

 5     20 minutes interpreters' breaks, whereas of course the witness would no

 6     doubt like to have a lunch break.  I mean, it's quite a long day, for any

 7     -- and I think those days there may be witnesses long.  Would like to

 8     have a lunch break.  And we've got four days down on the court calendar.

 9     Your Honour said three yesterday, but were notified four.  So we were

10     simply suggesting, and Mr. Hannis sent an e-mail with the suggestion to

11     your legal officers, but we haven't had a response, that we should simply

12     -- with another timetable which would allow 40 minutes for the witness to

13     have a lunch break.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Our recollection was that the times that we had

15     proposed did allow for a one-hour break.

16             MS. KORNER:  No.  No, it didn't.

17             JUDGE HALL:  But we appreciate the details of this irregular

18     arrangement which will have to be fine-tuned.

19             MS. KORNER:  Well, you asked for submission on that.  It

20     really -- but the importance of it all is that clearly for us

21     organising -- if we're having extended sittings, then we need to try and

22     possibly get more witnesses up.  And we obviously appreciate as much

23     notice as we can have.  But, Your Honour, as I say, I agree with you,

24     Mr. President, that it can be fine-tuned somewhere else.  But it does me

25     to -- which is a problem I raised earlier, and that's the question, and I

Page 673

 1     set this out in an e-mail which I hope Your Honours received sent to you,

 2     the senior legal officer on -- on the 28th of this month.

 3             We need to know in advance how long the Defence are going to take

 4     with each witness.  As you saw yesterday, originally the Defence simply

 5     gave a global figure of they wanted - I've forgotten what it was -

 6     two hours for the four witness that will be called this week.  We didn't

 7     know at the stage at which they informed us how long each individual

 8     witness was going, so we had witnesses here yesterday.  In fact, the

 9     witnesses who have testified today.

10             Our application is this:  In respect of that, that the Defence

11     must notify us in 24 hours of getting the confirmed list for next week,

12     we're giving a courtesy list, as we said, of roughly a month in advance,

13     of exactly how much time they will require with each witness, not just a

14     global figure for all the witnesses for the following week.  And that

15     effectively while we appreciate Your Honours' guidance on this, we would

16     submit it doesn't need Your Honours, really, to deal with it, because the

17     Defence know that they have got together as much time as we have, which

18     is 212 hours, and it's really a matter for them to decide how they use

19     it.  And equally, we would say, for example, where the standard time on

20     the guidelines is 20 minutes for a Rule 92 ter witness, sometimes we may

21     want more.  And we feel that it -- it's perhaps taking up unnecessary

22     time to have to apply formally.

23             As I say, we're getting weekly updates from the court officer as

24     to how much time we've used.  We know, and therefore it would seem to us

25     simpler for us to -- when we give the list of witnesses, to say this

Page 674

 1     witness will be, if it's viva voce, three hours.  This witness is 92 ter,

 2     but we would like to take 30 minutes because there's a bit more that they

 3     have to say, and we would identify that, and then the Defence to notify

 4     us and the Court.

 5             It seems to us that that's perhaps a more efficient way of

 6     dealing with it, if I can put it that way, and it doesn't take up time by

 7     making up applications.  But certainly we would ask the Defence -- that

 8     there is a rule that the Defence must tell us the time for each witness

 9     in advance.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes, certainly.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  If we can just deal with this matter.  The

13     Chamber actually did consider it and has decided to propose a change of

14     our procedural guidelines.  The -- the issue was that we would like the

15     cross-examining party to indicate as soon as possible the time needed for

16     the cross examination of 92 ter witnesses, because we think that if this

17     comes only 24 hours in advance of the witness's appearance, then that

18     might not be sufficient time for the calling party to determine which

19     documents it wants to confront the witness with or to put to the witness.

20             So we were hoping that rather than setting any particular

21     deadline for the cross-examining party's announcement of the time it

22     needs for the cross-examination, we propose to say "as soon as possible."

23             Let's see how it works in practice, and if it does give rise to a

24     sharpening of the rule, we will then consider to put an exact time-frame.

25     But I think it's in the interests, of at least the Chamber and of our

Page 675

 1     planning of the trial, that we know as soon as we can how long time will

 2     be needed for each witness, in particular, of course, the 92 ter

 3     witnesses.

 4             It goes without saying for the VWS, for the calling party, for

 5     the Chamber, for everyone, it's important and necessary to know how much

 6     time we need to set aside for each witness.  So rather than just leaving

 7     it to -- to chance as far as the time for cross-examination of 92 ter

 8     witnesses is concerned, our first approach will be to see if it is viable

 9     to operate with a rule that says that if during the Prosecution's case

10     the Defence wishes to cross-examine the 92 ter witnesses, then give us an

11     indication as soon as you can.  We could say no later than 24 hours in

12     advance, but if you can do that earlier on it would be beneficial to us.

13     And then let's see how it works, and then when the picture turns --

14             MS. KORNER:  [Overlapping speakers]

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  -- then the same will apply to --

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, right, Your Honour said 92 ter, but of

17     course, it's just as important for viva voce witnesses that we know how

18     long the Defence is going to cross-examine for.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But I hope that rule had been established, that

20     for the viva voce witnesses, the Defence would get altogether the same

21     amount of time as the Prosecution.

22             MS. KORNER:  Right.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Because we figured that under the normal

24     circumstances, the time normally used for cross-examination of

25     Prosecution witnesses is about 60 per cent of the time that is taken up

Page 676

 1     by the Prosecution.

 2             Now, since we have two accused, we then thought that if we raised

 3     the 60 per cent to 100 per cent, then we would approximately hit the

 4     right balancing of time for the parties to examine and to cross-examine.

 5     And rule number 1, I think, in our procedural guidelines is that if the

 6     parties for any reason, upon showing good cause, need more time, then you

 7     apply and we'll make a ruling on it.  But as a general rule the

 8     Prosecution will have a hundred per cent, and the two Defence teams

 9     together will have a hundred per cent.

10             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I think that's clear.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So that is now included in the new Rule 27.

12             And then as for the experts, we will then require the Defence or

13     the -- the cross-examining party to indicate simultaneously with its

14     indication under Rule 94 bis how much time it would need to spend for its

15     cross-examination if indeed it wants to cross-examine.

16             Now, we are aware of the fact that some experts have already been

17     announced and you have already expressed your views on -- on your wish to

18     cross-examine these experts.  So the moment has passed for your

19     indication of how much time you need, which is why we then in the new

20     procedural guidelines will ask you to indicate within two weeks from the

21     time when these new guidelines are disclosed to you how much time you

22     need for the experts if that's acceptable to all parties.

23             MS. KORNER:  Well, I don't know if the witness is ready.  There

24     are quite a lot of other things.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 677

 1             MS. KORNER:  Oh, I'm sorry.  I don't know if the witness is

 2     ready, but if not, I can carry on.  There are a number other --

 3             JUDGE HALL:  I understand she is.

 4             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Well, in that case, Your Honour,

 5     I'll ...

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I trust, ma'am, that you have regained your

 8     composure sufficiently to continue your testimony.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have, thanks.

10             MS. PIDWELL:

11        Q.   Ma'am, your statement and prior testimony talk about events that

12     took place on the 11th of June, 1992.  Can you just advise this

13     Trial Chamber whether on that day you were actually arrested or charged

14     with any criminal act or interrogated about any criminal act.

15        A.   I was arrested, and my husband too.  Three men in camouflage

16     uniform came.  (redacted)

17     (redacted), but he was also wearing a camouflage uniform.

18        Q.   Just pause there, sorry.  When I use the term "arrested," I mean

19     were you processed through the police station in a formal way.

20        A.   We were taken to the police station, but processed -- what do you

21     mean "processed"?

22        Q.   That's right.  Was there any formal procedure that took place at

23     the police station?

24        A.   Oh.  Formal procedure.  No, there was no formal procedure of any

25     kind.  There were armed men in uniforms with red berets.  We had been

Page 678

 1     beaten before, and I was taken to the room that you showed a short while

 2     ago.  And on the right-hand side at the police station there was a

 3     toilet, but I believe I mentioned all that in my statement.

 4        Q.   On this day at the police station, did you see any men in regular

 5     police uniforms?

 6        A.   Yes.  I saw Jovan Maric, a police officer.  He was wearing a

 7     regular uniform; he was at the counter.  But as far as I was able to

 8     notice, he was unable to react in any way.  Apart from him, there were

 9     also Miladin Teinovic, Savo Tepic, I heard his voice.  They were my

10     husband's colleagues.  Savo Tepic was the chief, the chief of police.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know Savo Tepic personally?

12        A.   I did know him personally, but we were not exactly close friends

13     or family friends.

14             MS. PIDWELL: [Previous translation continues] ... [overlapping

15     speakers] go into private session.  I understand -- I believe some of

16     these questions may be a bit too close to this witness.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 679











11 Pages 679-680 redacted. Private session.















Page 681

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- on reflection.  I'm really sorry for the

15     confusion, but I was about to ask for the private session because this

16     document which I'm about to show would be potentially.

17             JUDGE HALL:  So we remain in private session.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in private session, Your Honours.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 682











11 Pages 682-685 redacted. Private session.















Page 686

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 5             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honours, according to the instructions of my

 6     client, we don't have any cross-examination of this witness.  And also,

 7     my client wishes to express his deepest personal sympathy for the hard

 8     moments and tragic events that this witness passed through, and he

 9     express his personal remorse in the name of known and unknown

10     perpetrators to this witness.  Thank you so much.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic [Realtime transcript read in

12     error "Zecevic"].

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Re-examination?

15             MS. PIDWELL:  No thank you, sir.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Madam, thank you for your attendance and

17     assisting us, and you are now released.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             MR. HICKS:  Just a correction for the transcript, Your Honour.

21     Page 80, line 8 should read thank you, Mr. Pantelic, I believe instead of

22     thank you, Mr. Zecevic.  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, we're really in your hands now in the

24     sense of it's clearly no point in having the next witness, but we need to

25     know now so that we can meet and decide, whether Your Honours, will

Page 687

 1     enable us to call the witnesses who are the subject of the problems next

 2     week or whether we have to reorganise.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Just give me a moment, please.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             MS. KORNER:  Ms. Korner, I understand that the support arm of the

 6     Chamber, especially the interpreters, if there is a 20-minute break at

 7     this point we would have another hour available to us today.  So whereas

 8     you said a while ago there is no point beginning -- calling the next

 9     witness, if indeed we do have that hour available to us, could the --

10     that use be made of the time?

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, it could, but as I say, we have to deal

12     with the problems of -- unless Your Honours say we don't have to give

13     notification to the Defence of who is coming next week by 4.30 today, we

14     have to -- we have to be able to sort this out, and that means a

15     complete -- unless we get the videolink ordered and in place today, we

16     have a potential gap next week and Monday of two whole days where we have

17     no witnesses.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             MS. KORNER:  In addition, Your Honours, there are a number of

20     other matters which are still unresolved which I really would like to get

21     resolved.  If Your Honour's proposing to sit on.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we do not now propose that.

23             MS. KORNER:  Right.

24             JUDGE HALL:  What we will wish to do is to wrap up these

25     procedural matters and then take the adjournment for the day.

Page 688

 1             MS. KORNER:  Do you want me to continue with the number of

 2     outstanding procedural matters?

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Right.  In that case, Your Honours, the next

 5     question is this question that yesterday your ruling that exhibits

 6     produced within the statements of 92 ter witnesses not on the 65 ter list

 7     could not be admitted as exhibits unless we apply to add them to our 65

 8     ter list.

 9             Now, of course this -- the partial ruling we had on 94, which was

10     the first one we had, was the first one after 18 months.  We took the

11     view, as Mr. Hannis explained yesterday, that it would be rather like the

12     exhibits within the experts' footnotes, that they would be admitted as it

13     were with the reports or, in this case, the statements.

14             We understand the ruling, and we're going to apply to add those

15     exhibits to our 65 ter list which we will file a motion hopefully next

16     week.  However, where does that leave, for example, a witness -- we

17     applied for the next witness to be -- to add four exhibits to our 65 ter

18     which he could identify.  Your Honours have ruled they're not relevant or

19     not important enough.  They're not of sufficient importance was the

20     wording.

21             Those documents, however, concern his incarceration and his name

22     appears on them.  I am certainly going to ask him about those documents,

23     one of which is signed by the head of the Banja Luka SMB, the security

24     service.

25             So what is the position in relation to that?  They're not

Page 689

 1     admitted as exhibits until we apply to add it to our 65 ter list, but

 2     clearly the witness is entitled and can talk about documents that contain

 3     his name.  So how are we able to deal with that in the course of

 4     examination?

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Why wasn't the document included in the 65 ter

 6     list in the first place?

 7             MS. KORNER:  I can't give you an explanation for that,

 8     Your Honours.  I know -- my understanding of what happened was that when

 9     the -- the team dealing with this case last year was ordered to reduce

10     the case, a cull was made of documents that were on the 65 ter list that

11     didn't specifically relate to -- apparently to police matters.  And I

12     can't give you an explanation.  It was -- they have -- they were

13     originally on the 65 ter list, and they were removed in the cull.  And

14     that's all I can say.  I'm sorry about that, but -- but one of the

15     problems is how we deal with this now.

16             I mean, as I say, we did make the application to add.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Exactly.

18             MS. KORNER:  And Your Honours declined it.  But, I mean, it's

19     clearly -- it's a clearly relevant -- are Your Honours therefore

20     prohibiting us from even asking a witness about documents in which his

21     name appears and which are clearly relevant to -- to this matter?

22     That's -- that's what I'm asking.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner, any party can confront any witness

24     with any document during the testimony, either cross or chief.  The only

25     rule that applies to, make it simple, is that if that party wishes to

Page 690

 1     have that document tendered into evidence so that by the end of the trial

 2     it belongs to the pile of documents that the Judges will read again and

 3     make that final judgement on, then that document must be included in the

 4     65 ter list.

 5             The philosophy behind this, I think, is simple.  It is that we

 6     expect the Prosecution to put all of the evidence that it intends to use

 7     or may use in relation to the accused in the case into one pot.  That

 8     enables the Defence to look what's in there, and it also enables, to some

 9     extent, the Chamber to do the same thing.

10             Now, as we then approach the trial and we begin to hear the

11     witnesses, then the Prosecution can select from the box of documents the

12     65 ter list, select the documents that it then wishes to confront with

13     the witness and to have admitted into evidence.

14             If there is a document that's not included in the 65 ter list and

15     that it wishes to confront the witness with, then it can do so.  The only

16     difference is that that document may not be tendered into evidence.  And

17     if it wishes to introduce that document which does not appear on the

18     65 ter list, not only to put it to the witness but also to have it

19     included and admitted as evidence, then please apply for -- for its

20     inclusion.

21             So the philosophy is simply that nothing can come into evidence

22     unless it comes from the 65 ter list.  That's the entrance gate.

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm grateful for that clarification.

24     That does clarify matters for us.

25             Your Honour, the next matter, and I'm afraid it's not on the list

Page 691

 1     I sent, but it only occurred to me when Your Honour was reading out --

 2     discussing the experts, we need an urgent ruling, please, on the appeal

 3     in respect of Nielsen, which Your Honour heard written application from

 4     the Defence and oral argument from us just before we broke the last time,

 5     because he's due to come in November, and he's an academic and he needs

 6     to organise his life.  So we need a ruling on that.

 7             The Defence applied for certification for appeal of your order

 8     that Mr. Nielsen -- Dr. Nielsen must be treated as an expert.  We

 9     responded orally, and we were told we were going to get a ruling this

10     week.  And we haven't had the ruling yet, but we do need that urgently.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  We'll get to that.

12             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.  Your Honour, then the -- there are two

13     other matters on my list, but one of them is really -- it strikes me that

14     this question of Rule 66(B) is quite a lengthy one, and it may be best

15     reserved for another -- it isn't, as it were, an urgent matter that

16     requires us as the witness problem does, but can I mention just one other

17     short matter which I did mention on my list.

18             Yesterday, Mr. Pantelic quoted extensively to a witness from

19     testimony of a gentleman who had testified in Brdjanin.  It's not only in

20     breach of your guidelines, it's bad advocacy, because as Your Honours

21     known, firstly, it's not evidence; secondly, all the witness can be asked

22     to do is comment, which is not the purpose of cross, and I'm raising it

23     now so that we don't have to get up and object if it happens again.

24             The proposition of what someone said in a previous trial, we

25     would submit, can, of course, be put to a witness, but it is not proper

Page 692

 1     to say, Mr. X testifying in the previous trial said this.  What do you

 2     say to that?

 3             So I just wanted to make that clear because otherwise we waste

 4     time while we get up and object if that happens again.

 5             So, Your Honours, those are the matters, as I say, subject to

 6     this question of Rule 66(B), but because of the time we can deal with

 7     that, I hope, on another occasion.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and senior legal officer confer]

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner, regarding the videolink --

10             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  -- we have considered the matter during the

12     break.  And we also understood that actually the Registry required

13     ten days to set it up.  It may be that this can be done in a shorter

14     time-frame, but there was one thing that we thought was more problematic

15     in the material that you forwarded to the Chamber and to the other party

16     yesterday, I think it was, with the English translation of the medical

17     documentation of these two witnesses.

18             We now appreciate that we are able to see and to read the medical

19     and to understand the medical documentation, but there is one piece of

20     information that is missing, and that's the crucial one, namely a medical

21     certification that this witness is or is not able to travel.  And you

22     should have -- you've been here long enough to know that this is the way

23     these things are done.

24             We are Judges, and we're not doctors, so we cannot allow

25     ourselves to interpret the medical declarations as to the state of health

Page 693

 1     of the accused.  These are the doctors' determination, and we can read

 2     them, we can perhaps understand them, but we cannot make any finding on

 3     them.  So in order for us to ascertain whether the witness can travel or

 4     not, we can't make that determination on the basis of the documents that

 5     we received yesterday even if we can now read them.  We need a

 6     confirmation that these gentlemen can or cannot travel.  And as long as

 7     we don't have that, we are unable to go ahead.  We would like, if

 8     possible, to have the videolink arranged for next week, but I see that

 9     it's unlikely that this can happen given the fact that you first now have

10     to go back to the doctor and ask him for a declaration of -- as to his

11     ability and fitness to travel.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, could we very quickly go into private

13     session for a moment.

14                           [Private session]

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11 Pages 694-696 redacted. Private session.















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14                           [Closed session]

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11 Pages 698-701 redacted. Closed session.















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16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.42 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 2nd day

18                           of October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.