Page 794
1 Monday, 5 October 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 WITNESS: WITNESS ST-27 [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE HALL
9 cross-examination of this witness, which was suspended on Friday
10 afternoon.
11 Mr. Witness, I would remind you that you're still under oath.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
13 Good afternoon, Witness.
14 Your Honours, may I continue?
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic: [Continued]
16 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I'm going to read a provision of the
17 Law on General People's Defence. We spoke a little bit about
18 resubordination, and we spent a little bit of time on that. And the law
19 regulates that, and it defines it much more succinctly.
20 So Article 104 states:
21 "In war during immediate danger of war or imminent danger of war,
22 and in other extraordinary circumstances, the police can be used also to
23 execute combat assignments of the armed forces pursuant to the law."
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that we do not have the
25 original text in front us.
Page 795
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. "During the time it is executing combat tasks" --
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honour? It's
5 very brief. It's a very brief provision.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: What are you reading from?
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 104 of the Law on General People's
8 Defence. I'm only going to read it. May I continue with paragraph 2:
9 "During the time that they're executing combat assignments of
10 the armed forces, the police is resubordinated to the authorised senior
11 officer who is conducting the combat actions."
12 Q. Witness, were you thinking about this provision when we were
13 talking about resubordination? You're probably familiar with it.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Let us just remind ourselves. You said that you were at the --
16 that you transferred to the National Defence Secretariat from the police
17 in March. Is that correct?
18 A. In late March and early April 1992, yes.
19 Q. And you're aware of this provision, or you're familiar with this
20 provision of the law?
21 A. Well, to say -- to put it -- actually, I didn't read that law,
22 but I understood the whole story basically from attending the police
23 academy before.
24 Q. So you understood the gist of what we were talking about?
25 A. Yes.
Page 796
1 Q. Now that we're talking about the resubordination provision, I'm
2 going to describe a hypothetical situation to you now. You would agree
3 with me, would you not --
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have turned the microphone on.
5 Q. In such a situation, if the police officer or the unit that is
6 resubordinated to the military police commits a serious crime or a war
7 crime, according to what we have established so far they would be placed
8 under the jurisdiction of the military judicial organs, the military
9 investigative judge, the military prosecutor, and the military court. Am
10 I correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Witness, this law and some other regulations that go with it
13 provide for the obligation of drafting war plans and the formation or the
14 establishment of War Staffs, whereby I'm not thinking of the military
15 pyramid from the supreme commander, the Supreme Staff, the armed forces,
16 and so on and so forth. I'm not thinking about the armed component of
17 the armed forces because they had their own plans and their own staffs.
18 I am thinking of all the other subjects.
19 You are aware that all -- everyone had to have these plans, even
20 the economic subjects, companies, schools, municipalities. I cannot be
21 sure, but I think this even applied to local communes. Do you remember
22 that obligation to make plans?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And the organ of internal affairs was also subject to that
25 obligation, wasn't it?
Page 797
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. However, these plans do not resemble military plans of the army.
3 They're not plans to execute combat actions, are they?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. Now I'm going to dwell a little bit on what is of interest to us,
6 and that is the police. We have already established that a certain
7 proportion of the police could, according to an order by the supreme
8 commander, be engaged in the armed forces, and that then places them
9 outside of the jurisdiction of the police, placing them under the armed
10 forces. However, the rest of the police force in war has to continue to
11 perform its regular tasks. Isn't that correct?
12 A. Yes, but I think that at any given time they are also essentially
13 subject or subordinate to the supreme military command structure.
14 Q. Yes. I agree with you that that is once the command decides to
15 place them under their jurisdiction, but some of them have to deal with
16 their regular assignments, with dealing with criminals, and so on. No
17 region can be left without the activities of the police.
18 A. Well, I cannot be sure, but I think in the case of imminent
19 danger of war the police or the militia would be engaged at the front or
20 on their own regular assignments, but they would still be subject to
21 decisions adopted by the military command, if I can put it that way.
22 Q. So you believe that even the sector of the police that was not
23 directly engaged in combat actions are still subordinated to the military
24 command during wartime?
25 A. Yes, during wartime, because at any point they can tell them --
Page 798
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness and Mr. Cvijetic, sorry, the
3 interpreters did not get the last answer by the witness. So if he could
4 please repeat it so that we can hear what he said.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The witness would need to repeat
6 his answer. I don't need to repeat my question. Is that correct?
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Why don't you just repeat it just to be sure.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. From what I understood you to say, you think that the rest of the
10 police was also subject to military command and would be subordinate to
11 the military command, because at any point in time they could be engaged
12 in action. Am I correct?
13 A. Yes. I think that that is how it was.
14 Q. All right. Thank you very much.
15 Witness, in closing I would like to read another portion from a
16 law. You said that you completed the military academy at the -- the
17 police academy at the secondary level?
18 A. Yes. I completed the cadet school, the secondary level of
19 military academy.
20 Q. So practically your profession is a policeman; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you are -- you were trained as a policeman?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. While you were employed, did you enjoy the status of an
25 authorised person?
Page 799
1 A. While I was in the police, with the police, yes; but when I was
2 transferred to the Secretariat for the National Defence, then I ceased to
3 be an authorised person.
4 Q. All right. I would like to read now a -- an excerpt from a law,
5 and I would just like to check with you whether you are aware of it.
6 It reads as follows:
7 "I declare that I will carry out" -- "discharge my duties as a
8 authorised person in a responsible and ..."
9 MS. KORNER: Okay. Could you tell us what you're reading please,
10 article, law?
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Certainly. This is a provision
12 from the law on the interior, the provision number 14 of the Law on the
13 Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina which was in
14 force while the gentleman was undergoing training for police work.
15 May I -- may I continue, Your Honours?
16 Q. So I have to repeat this.
17 "I declare that I will carry out the duties as an authorised
18 person in a conscientious and responsible manner; that I will abide by
19 the laws and the constitution; and that I will protect the constitutional
20 order, laws, rights, liberties, and security of the working people and
21 citizens to the best of my abilities; and that I will carry out these and
22 other responsibilities as an authorised person in a -- even in the event
23 where such duties and tasks may endanger my life."
24 Do you know what I've read from?
25 A. Well, I believe that this is a -- an oath of office that we all
Page 800
1 had to -- to take before we started our work.
2 Q. Yes, but under the law I believe that was called a solemn oath.
3 A. Yes, that's possible, but I can't really recall right now.
4 Q. Well, let me remind you. That's what it says. It says:
5 "The text of the solemn oath reads as follows ..."
6 And then comes what I've just read.
7 Well, let me ask you then. Did you take this solemn oath?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. Witness, I would now like to go back briefly to those plans
10 that all the other subjects have to prepare. In practice these plans are
11 referred to as war plans. Would it be more appropriate to use the term
12 "plans on the organisation and manner of operation of that particular
13 subject under wartime conditions"? Would that explain more precisely
14 what exactly this law referred to?
15 A. Yes, I believe so.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
17 questions for this witness. But before I sit down, I would like to thank
18 the witness for his very fair and honest replies. I believe that up
19 until this moment you have fully abided by the solemn declaration that
20 you gave at the beginning of this trial.
21 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. My name is
Page 801
1 Dragan Krgovic, and I will put some questions on behalf of the Defence
2 for Stojan Zupljanin that relate to your testimony a few days ago.
3 Witness, in response to a question by the Prosecution and my
4 colleague Cvijetic, you talked about the manner in which the
5 Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina operated at the time
6 in question, and my questions will relate precisely to those areas and
7 responsibilities and work of some of the organs of the MUP.
8 Are you familiar with the fact that under the old law there was
9 especially -- a special service of state security within the structure of
10 the Ministry of the Interior?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And this was a separate organisational unit which had special
13 rules of service; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And although at times it would share the premises with the Public
16 Security Service, it was actually in charge of the special area of
17 responsibility which was the state security, and it did not get involved
18 in the public security aspects of work; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And they had special premises where other members of the police
21 could not -- or had no access without permission or authorisation;
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. As far as you know, they had a separate chain of command and
25 practically they were a service within a service; correct?
Page 802
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In response to a question by the Prosecution, you said that you
3 were --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's request: Could the counsel
5 please repeat his question.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I have to repeat my question because it didn't enter into the
8 transcript.
9 So you were arrested by some military persons, but you're not
10 sure whether these were reserve policemen or regular police -- or regular
11 army personnel?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. My question referred to military personnel, and what you just
14 said referred to military personnel; correct?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction --
16 A. Yes, reserve military personnel, but whether they were regular
17 soldiers or not, I don't know, but they did wear army uniforms.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And after this you were questioned by members of the state
20 security?
21 A. After I was brought to the security services centre, the first
22 contact I had was with a member of the state security whom I knew before.
23 I knew that he worked at this service, in this service. And the second
24 contact that I had was with an inspector, but whether he was a member of
25 the regular police or state security, I'm not sure. I don't know.
Page 803
1 Q. Do you remember whether you provided or made any statement to
2 these individuals who questioned you? Did you sign any statements?
3 A. During the first -- on that first occasion the gentleman who was
4 a member of the state security offered that I sign a statement which said
5 that I was arrested because I was allegedly an organiser of an armed
6 rebellion, and I refused to sign this.
7 Q. I will get back to this question on how they treated you, but my
8 general question, because you were an inspector, a crime inspector, the
9 standard procedure in your work, crime inspector, would be to take a
10 statement from a witness, to collect evidence, and prepare a criminal
11 report which would then be forwarded to the authorised prosecutor;
12 correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Following this, the prosecutor would decide whether there was
15 official grounds to undertake an investigation, and you as a policeman
16 had no further connections with the proceedings that were -- that he
17 would instigate, that he would start; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And whatever happened with the arrested individuals was really
20 not within your jurisdiction any more; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see 2D06-90097 -- 2D60-097
23 [as interpreted].
24 Q. I will show you a copy of one of the statements that you gave to
25 the State Security Service, the Banja Luka section. Please read it
Page 804
1 carefully.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, do you know if there is --
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please keep this document
4 under seal. It is not to be broadcast.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if there is an English translation of
6 the document?
7 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, in e-court.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Yes. It's on the screen. Thank you
9 very much.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the second page,
11 please.
12 Q. And, Witness, could you check whether your signature is on this
13 page.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would you repeat your answer, please?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And we can see your signature on each and every one of these
18 pages, at the bottom of the page?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you remember the questions that were put to you when you take
21 a look at this statement? Does it reflect what you said on this occasion
22 while you were questioned by the state security?
23 A. In view of the time elapsed, I cannot really vouch that
24 everything was written down as I said it, but for the most part all of it
25 is in there.
Page 805
1 Q. Well, more or less all the topics that you discussed are in
2 there; correct? I just need you to confirm whether, generally speaking,
3 this is what you said. Whether this content is or reflects what you
4 said.
5 A. Generally speaking, yes.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 2D06 --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the second part of
8 the number of this.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you repeat the number, please.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: Sorry, second one or previous one?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note the counsel is switching his
12 microphone on and off, and we could not hear the entire number.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you please do it once again because the
14 microphone was switched on and off.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 060097. That was the
16 earlier exhibit. Could we please admit it into evidence, and the witness
17 confirmed that this was in fact his document.
18 MS. KORNER: No objection.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Your Honours. It will be
21 Exhibit 2D2 under seal.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown
23 060103, please. And if I can, with the assistance of the Usher, could a
24 copy of this document be shown to the witness.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just confirm it's not actually
Page 806
1 going out over the monitors. I just wanted to check. That's right, is
2 it?
3 THE REGISTRAR: It is not being broadcast. Thank you.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Witness, did you have -- did you have an opportunity to see this
6 now? Could you check that your signature is on this statement?
7 A. It is my signature, but I have not seen this before except at the
8 time perhaps when it was noted down.
9 Q. But it more or less reflects what you talked about with the State
10 Security Service inspectors when you talked with them?
11 A. More or less, yes, because I have nothing to hide. Not then, so
12 I spoke openly.
13 Q. And they mostly questioned you about what you knew about the
14 arming of the Muslim and the Croatian people, about meetings with certain
15 people, and whether you yourself had any weapons. These were more or
16 less the topics of the conversation; is that correct?
17 A. More or less, yes.
18 Q. They also asked you to explain the origin of the automatic rifle
19 and pistol found in your house, and you gave the explanation as it is
20 stated in this statement; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have an exhibit number for
23 this exhibit, please, under seal.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D3 under seal, Your Honours.
Page 807
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see that there is another statement coming now,
4 and I would like to ask you if you would be good enough to explain to us
5 what it is exactly that you wish the Court to extract from these
6 statements other than the fact, of course, that he was questioned by the
7 state security in June 1992.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm trying to
9 demonstrate or show the Chamber that the procedure and the authorisation,
10 what they are of those people who conducted the procedure against this
11 witness, from the taking of the statement, to the criminal charges, to
12 the arrest of the witness, and so on and so forth, and under whose
13 jurisdiction he stayed in prison. Also who is responsible for the abuse
14 of this witness while he was in prison.
15 This whole line of questioning will be based on a series of
16 documents showing who was in charge of him, who was questioning him, who
17 kept him in detention, and who beat him, whereby I wish to demonstrate
18 that this had nothing to do with my client.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: This is excellent information. Thank you very
20 much. And please help the Court to get to this point so that we can
21 understand the evidence that you bring.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness, I have another statement here that you provided to the
24 State Security Service.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could witness look at 2D06-0109,
Page 808
1 please.
2 Q. Witness, I'm just going to show you the statement. I'm not going
3 to be dealing with it in detail. Could you just confirm whether it is
4 your signature, whether you gave this statement, and if you recall the
5 conversation on which the statement was based?
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, perhaps I could save the Usher some
7 time. I don't need to be shown statements in B/C/S, which I can't read,
8 and ask if I object to them.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Witness, have you had the opportunity to check whether this is
11 your signature on the statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And just as in the previous statement, does it more or less
14 reflect the conversation that you had with the members of the State
15 Security Service?
16 A. Yes, more or less.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please be given an exhibit
18 number for this document, also under seal.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D3 under seal, Your Honours.
21 Apologies, Exhibit 2D4.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].
23 Q. Just now I asked you about the procedure when an authorised
24 employee of the police completes the compilation of documents and the
25 interviews and then he submits criminal charges. Did you have the
Page 809
1 opportunity to see the criminal charges submitted against you together
2 with the accompanying documents?
3 A. The criminal charges as such without the accompanying documents I
4 did see for the first and last time when I was brought before the
5 military prosecutor or the judge. I'm not sure which.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
7 Exhibit 1D00-4474. [In English] Mr. Usher, please.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, if I may. You make a difference
9 between -- you make a difference between State Security Service and
10 Public Security Service. Now, I have the document. You ask questions
11 about -- to the witness, and you say this is State Security Service.
12 What is -- what is indicated that it is state and not public?
13 MR. KRGOVIC: That is correct, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: How can I see that it is state and not public? I
15 see -- in the translation I see Security Service Centre. I don't see
16 specified that it is state or public, but perhaps I'm missing something
17 here.
18 MS. KORNER: Underneath.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Underneath? I don't have the underneath.
20 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour. It says:
21 "Security Services Centre Banja Luka."
22 And then it says:
23 "SNB
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: SNB
25 MS. KORNER: Yes. National Security Service.
Page 810
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Could you please look at page 3 of this document just to see -- I
4 think you are the last person on that list. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, but I would like to note that this is the first time that I
6 am
7 Q. Can you please look at the attachments carefully. These are
8 statements of persons who are referred to in the criminal charges and
9 provided as attachments.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: Could we move into private session for a moment,
11 Your Honours.
12 [Private session]
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 811
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10
11 Pages 811-813 redacted. Private session.
12
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Page 814
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. We're now in open session, so please be careful, and I will, too,
12 in my questions, not to mention any fact that might point to your
13 identity, just as a reminder.
14 Now, once a criminal report was submitted, there would be a
15 decision made on conducting an investigation and on arrest on remand. Is
16 that how it worked? Do you agree?
17 A. Well, in the normal circumstances that would be the regular
18 procedure. However, I and these two other individuals were put in prison
19 without receiving any decision or anything of that sort, and it was only
20 a month later that we received the first paper that we could read and see
21 what it was that we were charged with.
22 Q. And before that you said that you had refused to sign a statement
23 in -- at the station because you felt that you were not responsible for
24 what was being charged against you. Do you recall that, saying that?
25 A. Yes.
Page 815
1 Q. The decision of -- by the Public Security Service to put you
2 under arrest, that is what -- that is the type of decision I was
3 referring to, and you were not given this decision to sign?
4 MR. KRGOVIC: I didn't say "public security," "state security."
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This was an A4 sheet of paper
6 with two or three sentences on it, a very brief text, and I refused to
7 sign that. And as for this, this is the first time that I see this
8 document.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. And the paper that you refused to sign stated that you were put
11 under arrest; correct?
12 A. Well, about -- it was about something to that effect.
13 Q. And following this, you received from a court -- you received a
14 court decision putting you under arrest.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see 2D05-0037.
16 Just a moment. Perhaps I can provide a copy, but I think it is easier to
17 read off the monitor. 2D0300 --
18 MS. KORNER: 00 what?
19 MR. KRGOVIC: 0037.
20 THE INTERPRETER: 0037.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. We can see here that you and the other two colleagues that were
23 with you were placed under arrest by the lower court in the city or town
24 where you were arrested.
25 A. Yes.
Page 816
1 Q. You submitted a complaint -- or, rather, an appeal against this
2 ruling. Do you recall that?
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I will show that document a little
4 later, but before that, could we admit this document into evidence under
5 seal as well.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D5 -- 2D6 under seal, Your Honours.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown
8 2D03-0041, please.
9 Q. This is a decision whereby your appeal is rejected. Do you
10 agree?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. After this, you were transferred to a military prison, you
13 testified before this Court. In other words, you were transferred from a
14 civilian to a military prison. And I would now like to show you a
15 document which explains why that is so.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And in the meantime, could we show
17 the witness 2D03-00345.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 exhibited this?
20 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D7 under seal, Your Honours.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. This is a decision where the lower court in the town where you
25 were arrested proclaimed itself -- proclaimed that it did not have
Page 817
1 jurisdiction over this matter, and it forwarded this to the Banja Luka
2 court. Is this -- does this actually correspond to your transfer from
3 the civilian to the military prison, if you can recall?
4 A. Well, I cannot really claim with certainty that this happened at
5 about the same time on that particular date, but I believe that this was
6 at the time when we were in prison. We spent some month or month and a
7 half in prison. And then in June we were in a different prison. So this
8 could be a document relating to that, but I'm not absolutely certain.
9 Q. Following this --
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we admit this document into
11 evidence, please.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D8 under seal, Your Honours.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown
14 2D03-0050.
15 Q. This is a document from a higher court where, prior to this case
16 being forwarded to the military court, you are -- your arrest is being
17 extended. Do you agree with me? Is that what it says here?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please admit this document
20 into evidence under seal.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D9 under seal, Your Honours.
23 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, Your Honour. Maybe -- maybe I'm
24 wrong, but there is some -- mistake in exhibit numbers. I think the
25 previous one with last two digits 0045 should be 2D7, and that one 2D8,
Page 818
1 because now we are running to the other number.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE HALL
4 and make the necessary adjustments. Thank you.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could a document be shown,
6 2D03-0059. Could the witness be shown the second page of this document.
7 Q. It is rather illegible. These are notes from your interview
8 before the military prosecutor. Could you just briefly look at the
9 second page and tell us whether this reflects your interview, the content
10 of your interview with the military prosecutor. As far as I could see,
11 it is more or less consistent with the previous statements.
12 Please take a look at the fifth paragraph from the top where your
13 description of the inspections of the shelters exactly reflects your
14 words here before this Trial Chamber. Correct?
15 A. Well, the copy is really difficult to read. I'm unable to read
16 it.
17 Q. Well, let me read it. It says here:
18 "Regarding shelters, I state that I did not visit any kind of
19 shelters in the area of other villages."
20 MS. KORNER: I'm reminding counsel that we're in open session.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's how it was.
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 [Private session]
Page 819
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I will give you a copy of this document, but I can tell you that
14 what is stated therein more or less it corresponds to what you've already
15 mentioned in the other statements. But perhaps you can take a look at
16 this copy just to confirm.
17 More or less, this is what you said to the investigating judge;
18 correct?
19 A. More or less, yes.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please admit this into
21 evidence.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D10 under seal, Your Honours.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You mentioned during your testimony on Friday that you were also
25 assigned a counsel ex officio. Do you remember that you said this on
Page 820
1 Friday?
2 A. Yes, that's what I said, but I didn't -- I wasn't given an
3 opportunity to correct myself. The counsel who was assigned to me, it's
4 possible that he was assigned ex officio, but this was a man that I knew
5 from before. So whether he was an assigned counsel or whether I actually
6 sought him, I'm not really sure anymore.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown
8 2D03-0053, please.
9 Q. This is your appeal from the decision on remand in custody that
10 your counsel actually filed with the court, and he asked that the -- that
11 the proceedings against you be annulled and that you be released. So
12 this is the content of this appeal, as far as I can see.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please admit this into
15 evidence.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D11 under seal, Your Honours.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You said that when you went on that exchange that you received a
19 decision issued by the military court that the prosecutor had withdrawn a
20 criminal complaint against you and that it was ordered that you be
21 released from remand. Do you recall -- from remand and custody. Do you
22 recall that you said that?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness
25 2D03-0056, please.
Page 821
1 Q. This is exactly what we were talking about. It says here that
2 you were no longer to be held in custody, you and the others, because the
3 prosecutor was not going to pursue the criminal report. Also, appeal was
4 not permitted because the parties had waived their right to it. You said
5 last time when you testified that you had not waived that right. Is that
6 what you meant when you said -- did you mean to say that you did not
7 waive your right to appeal?
8 A. Yes, I did comment on that in the sense that this was written as
9 a kind of legal remedy, but I didn't have the opportunity to appeal at
10 all. I received a blank A4 piece of paper then, which I also had to
11 sign. I signed the blank piece of paper. I don't know what was written
12 on that paper later. I don't know.
13 Q. But basically this decision is in your favour. You didn't have a
14 lawyer. All charges against you were rejected, so any lawyer would waive
15 the right to appeal for his client because this is something that would
16 be beneficial to his client. Would you not agree with me?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, when is the time for the break?
19 Because I have 15 minutes more. Should I go now or ...
20 JUDGE HALL
21 MR. KRGOVIC: Okay. Let's proceed.
22 Q. [Interpretation] In short, what I wanted to show with these
23 documents, you were suspected of taking part in armed rebellion, that you
24 had weapons. You provided statements. Some of the witnesses provided
25 statements that were not in your favour. You went through the entire
Page 822
1 procedure from the criminal report to being acquitted. Do you agree with
2 me?
3 A. Yes. I went through the entire procedure, as you put it, but the
4 mistreatment, the beatings, that is not a procedure that is provided for
5 under any regulations. And if I may say, at the time there was a sort of
6 quasi-state in power, and the procedure resembled that.
7 Q. I'm not talking about what actually happened. I am just saying
8 that the procedures conducted against were you conducted in accordance
9 with the procedure that was in force at the time without referring to the
10 beatings, the abuse, and what happened with you while you were in prison,
11 or without saying that that was legal.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Pursuant to the regulations in force at the time, the
14 jurisdiction over those detained in the district prison was under the
15 jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice or the court police or a special
16 district prison. Would you agree with me?
17 A. I cannot really comment on that. I'm no longer sure about that
18 or whose jurisdiction that was.
19 Q. When you were serving the jurisdiction over those who the court
20 placed under custody, was under the jurisdiction of the court or the
21 military prosecutor or the district prosecutor under whose' jurisdiction
22 the court would place them; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But you were under the jurisdiction the military court, so this
25 dual jurisdiction would then be something that was under the military
Page 823
1 organs. It was under military jurisdiction, and that's who had
2 jurisdiction over you up until the time you were exchanged.
3 MS. KORNER: As I understand it, only from -- if this is true,
4 only from the 1st of October. Up till then it was the civilian
5 authorities that had jurisdiction.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: 1992?
7 MS. KORNER: Yes. According to the documents that counsel just
8 produced, on the 1st of October the lower court, whoever that may have
9 been, refused jurisdiction and said it would be transmitted to the
10 military court. So certainly until the 1st of October.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That was the gist of my question.
12 I can see that perhaps I formulated it clumsily or perhaps the
13 interpretation was a little bit problematic, but in any case, that was
14 the gist of my question.
15 Q. Would you agree with me?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you were questioned by the investigative judge or by members
18 of the State Security Service, were you asked about your affiliation to
19 or with HVO units?
20 A. No.
21 Q. But you were asked about the existence of organised groups of the
22 Muslim Croatian ethnicity and their weaponry; is that correct?
23 A. There were questions to that effect, but from what I knew there
24 was no organised form of resistance. I said what I knew, that there
25 weren't such groups. And it's true that there weren't such groups.
Page 824
1 MR. KRGOVIC: I think it's a convenient time for the break,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 [The witness stands down]
5 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Witness, sir, before I continue, I asked you about an
10 abbreviation, HVO. We know what I meant. But for the Trial Chamber, can
11 you please explain what that abbreviation means. It means the Croatian
12 Defence Council, I will say, and it was a armed force of the Croatian
13 people in Bosnia and Herzegovina at a certain period in time.
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please --
16 Your Honours, I apologise. I forgot to ask for the previous document to
17 be admitted. It is this decision on suspending the proceedings against
18 the witness, and that is number -- just one moment. 2D00-056.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 THE REGISTRAR: So will become Exhibit 2D12 under seal,
21 Your Honours.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
23 Exhibit 2D05-0016.
24 Q. Sir, on the first page --
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that we don't have an
Page 825
1 English translation for this document, but if you agree.
2 MS. KORNER: We do. We supplied an English translation of the
3 header.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that we're talking about a
5 different document. I'm talking about the second -- oh, we have it for
6 this one as well.
7 Your Honours, I have photocopies of the heading for the
8 Trial Chamber. The rest of the document are just names.
9 This is a document of the Croatian Republic
10 the Ministry of Defence. It's a secret, military secret, classified as a
11 military secret, and it is the list of persons registered at the defence
12 office.
13 Could the witness please be shown the page of the document marked
14 ERN 071-4627.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat what he said.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 0710-4626.
17 Q. Witness, could you please look at line marked third from the
18 bottom on this document. I'm not going to state the number. 529.
19 This first column is your name there and the name of your father?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And next to that we see your personal ID number with your date
22 and year of birth in the first part; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then in the next column we see the time of service in the
25 units, from the 18th of September, 1991, until the 11th of June, 1992.
Page 826
1 Register number 3215/60; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you help us and explain -- first of all, did you have the
4 opportunity to see this document before?
5 A. Not before the proofing, no.
6 Q. It states here on this document - I'm not saying that that is a
7 fact - that you were a member of the HVO from this date, the
8 11th of September, 1999, up until the time you were arrested, if I
9 understand this document correctly.
10 MS. KORNER: The translation comes up as the
11 11th of September, 1999, which can't be right.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 1991.
13 Q. Do you have an explanation of how your name happens to be on this
14 list and that you were engaged in the HVO forces for this period of time?
15 A. This period that is referred to here in 1991 until June 1992, I
16 don't know, because I could not have been a member of those units because
17 I was still working in the police until the -- until late March 1992.
18 And the second date that is mentioned here, I assume that -- and in
19 general about this list, it probably included all persons who in one way
20 or another were victims of these unfortunate events, and it was evidently
21 a political decision at some higher level that really is not accessible
22 to me.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
24 Exhibit 2D05-0013.
25 JUDGE HALL
Page 827
1 you have to make in respect of this document that was last shown to the
2 witness?
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I show the
4 witness the second document, I will show their connection, and then I
5 will seek for admittance of both. Because what he was talking about now
6 was actually what I'm going to show in the second document. So I just
7 want to make sure there is no confusion.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Witness, under 21 here we can see your name. And again we see
11 the personal identification number. And I assume that this is you, in
12 fact?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. We can see here where it says:
15 "In captivity as of 11th June, 1992."
16 And there's also -- this, in fact, is a list of disabled veterans
17 of the HVO?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You mentioned earlier that this was probably compiled for the
20 benefit of those people who were victims, and I suppose you were
21 referring to this document, because this document really relates to
22 individuals who are to be reimbursed for their disability and the other
23 document was just a list, but I assume that these two documents, in fact,
24 go hand in hand, and that they are proof for some claims that you may
25 have; correct?
Page 828
1 A. Both of these documents are -- they're inseparable, in fact.
2 They go together, but obviously up until the HVO was established as
3 mentioned, and I don't know exactly when and under whose instructions,
4 but when this conflict broke out, I'm pretty certain that this did not
5 exist. And as far as I know, they did not have this information at their
6 disposal.
7 But whether this -- these lists were compiled while I was in
8 custody, I don't know. And I believe that they were compiled really in
9 order to enable the individuals who were victims of this conflict to
10 regulate their status.
11 Q. Well, that was my conclusion, too, and that is why I linked up
12 these two documents.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please admit both of these
14 documents, under seal, of course.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 in the series.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Both documents will become Exhibit 2D13 and 2D14.
18 Both will be under seal, Your Honours.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
20 Thank you, sir.
21 Your Honours, my cross-examination is complete.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 Re-examination?
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, there will be. One thing I don't
25 think we've been told so far, does re-examination count as far as the
Page 829
1 hours allocated? I see Judge Harhoff nodding.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: We'll get back to you. My immediate response is,
5 Yes, of course it is included. But I'm not sure, and we're having the
6 Legal Officer check for us.
7 MS. KORNER: Can I assure the Legal Officer and save some time.
8 You never mentioned re-examination, but I'm -- I'll continue, and we'll
9 see how -- how we go.
10 Re-examination by Ms. Korner:
11 Q. Sir, you were asked on Friday, I believe, about something to do
12 about Crisis Staffs, and you explained how you'd seen a document in a
13 previous trial in relation to that. Do you remember?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Before you saw that document in the previous trials, were you
16 aware of Crisis Staffs and how they operated?
17 A. I learned of their existence, the existence of the Crisis Staff,
18 from the operative, the inspector who was interviewing me when I was
19 arrested. And as for the role and function of that Crisis Staff, at the
20 time I didn't know anything about it; but after, I learned something
21 about it after I was released.
22 Q. Next, you were asked this afternoon about your understanding of
23 how the police and the military interacted in times of war. Do you
24 remember those questions?
25 A. Yes.
Page 830
1 Q. And you had part of the Law on All People's Defence read to you
2 this afternoon. Have you ever read the Law on All People's Defence?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So this afternoon was the first time that you had heard that
5 particular article before; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You also explain that your understanding of the role of the
8 police was that in all matters, including civilian law enforcement, they
9 were subject to military authority if there was a time of war.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So in other words, your understanding is that it would be the
12 local military officer, the senior military officer, who would be in
13 charge of the police in all matters in a time of war. Is that what
14 you're saying? Not just if the police were in combat units.
15 A. Yes, but the police had their own commander who was subordinate
16 to the military commander, who could then issue any type of assignment to
17 him and he would have to obey.
18 Q. So I just want to -- so we all get what your understanding is,
19 it's your understanding that, for example, Stojan Zupljanin would have
20 been subordinate to General Momir Talic in respect of all matters to do
21 with the police and not subordinate to Mico Stanisic. Is that what
22 you're saying your understanding is?
23 A. I think so, but I assume that no order, even if it came from a
24 military -- from the military, could be issued without the minister of
25 the interior or without going through the minister of the interior.
Page 831
1 Q. You say, "I assume." Is all of what you've been saying an
2 assumption?
3 A. These -- this is the knowledge that I have about the chain of
4 command in the -- in war time or imminent threat of war, and that is how
5 it worked while I was arrested. But from that moment onward, I really
6 don't know about that.
7 Q. Okay. During your service as a police officer in the --
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that when the witness
9 said that this order could not go unnoticed by the minister of the
10 interior or without his consent, but it would have to be obeyed in any
11 case. Am I correct in saying that, Witness? [In English] Okay.
12 MS. KORNER: Just a moment. I'm now -- that's the trouble. I'm
13 now confused as to whether the intervention is because the translation of
14 the witness's answer was wrong or whether Mr. Cvijetic is trying to ask
15 another question.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The translation was incomplete of
17 the witness's words. This portion was missing. But the portion saying
18 that in any case, that order would have to be implemented, so that
19 portion was not interpreted. And that was really the gist of my
20 intervention.
21 MS. KORNER: All right. I think, just to be clear, we'd better
22 go back over this.
23 Q. Sir, I asked you whether Stojan Zupljanin would have been
24 subordinate to General Talic in respect of all matters to do with the
25 police and not subordinate to Mico Stanisic, and I asked you what your
Page 832
1 understanding was. Can you tell us again what your reply would be? I
2 think that's the best way of sorting this out.
3 A. I think that an army general would not address directly, as far
4 as I understand it, anyone from the chain of command. And the way I
5 understood the chain of command in the former state, he would not really
6 address in any way the commander of the CSB but, rather, would go through
7 the minister if an assignment had to be carried out.
8 Q. And I was just about to ask you whether during your period of
9 service in the police in the Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia you had
10 operated in a time of war ever or imminent threat of war?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Finally, you've just been asked a number of questions about the
13 proceedings that were taken against you in court. First of all, can we
14 just look at the context again of those statements that you made, and I
15 think --
16 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, I was trying to think whether we should
17 go into private session, and I think we should, if you don't mind, for
18 this.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: And while we go into private session, we have
20 checked through our Legal Officer what the position is for time for
21 re-examination, and the answer is that it is not part of the time set
22 aside for your examination-in-chief. The redirect forms part of the
23 remaining 20 per cent that are added for questions from the Judges,
24 procedural matters, and re-examination.
25 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
Page 833
1 [Private session]
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 834
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 834-835 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 836
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 Chamber.
11 [Private session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 837
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 837-838 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 839
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, during the break I got the
10 instruction of my client, Mr. Zupljanin, to address this witness.
11 [Interpretation] I'm now going to speak in the language you
12 understand.
13 Mr. Zupljanin would like to express his regret for everything
14 that you had experienced during the period you described in front of this
15 Trial Chamber. He found out about it by reading statements and listening
16 to what you have said. And in view of the fact that you spent (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 MS. KORNER: We'd better have that very last bit redacted from
22 the public transcript. That is to say, from line -- from page 45,
23 lines 24 and 25.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 So you're now released, and we wish you a safe journey back home.
Page 840
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 MS. KORNER: I don't know whether the shutters are going to go up
4 or down, but, Your Honours, can I mention a couple of matters before
5 Mr. Di Fazio calls the next witness.
6 For the purposes of the transcript, Mr. Di Fazio has come into
7 court.
8 Really, procedural matters. The first is this: We're actually
9 moving from Kotor Varos into Sanski Most, and you may have gathered --
10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Should we be in open session?
11 MS. KORNER: We are in open session.
12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Oh, we are.
13 MS. KORNER: It's just that the shutters are down.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 you just indicated who would be leading the next witness, and I seem to
16 recall that I neglected this morning, notwithstanding what I indicated
17 last week I would do after each resumption, to take the appearances
18 afresh. So perhaps I'd better do that now.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think it's pretty clear, but, Your Honour,
20 the appearances for the Prosecution for the first witness today were
21 myself, Joanna Korner, assisted by the case manager Jasmina Bosnjakovic,
22 and Mr. Di Fazio has just arrived in court. So that's the Prosecution
23 for today.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am co-counsel in
Page 841
1 Mr. Mico Stanisic's Defence, and I conducted the cross-examination today.
2 I am accompanied by Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, and our legal assistant right
3 now Ms. Tatjana Savic.
4 MR. PANTELIC: For Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic,
5 Dragan Krgovic, Brent Hicks, and Eric Tully. Thank you.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 Yes, Ms. Korner.
8 MS. KORNER: Can I just explain. The evidence on Kotor Varos is
9 not actually complete, and I'm afraid we're not calling the evidence in
10 any particularly logical fashion because of the problems with witnesses
11 who we are banned from calling until one month afterwards. That's a
12 problem which I'm afraid has hit us again.
13 In respect of the witness who was due to come on Friday -- sorry.
14 Yes, probably Friday. A review of the searches that were done on him
15 revealed that there had been a nine-page statement made to the Bosnians
16 which has just turned up and which is not translated into English. That
17 puts him out of court, as it were, in light of Your Honours' ruling.
18 The way we see the week proceeding is as follows: There is the
19 witness that Mr. Di Fazio will call now who is 92 ter and who
20 Mr. Di Fazio tells me will take about 20 minutes in chief, as per the
21 instructions. The estimate for cross-examination from each team has
22 been, I think, 30 -- sorry, no. What number's that? Forty-five minutes
23 from the Zupljanin team, and 30 minutes from the Stanisic team.
24 There is another witness tomorrow. The length of
25 cross-examination is a bit longer for the two of them, and I think
Page 842
1 examination-in-chief, Ms. Pidwell's going to ask if she's can have a
2 little bit long with this particular witness.
3 The witness after that is going to be a lengthy witness.
4 Your Honour will recall Witness 181 this is, that a witness summons was
5 issued for him. There was a problem with his visa, so he's not getting
6 here till tonight. He's then going to review his interviews and the
7 documents. And the Defence have told us today that they would like to
8 interview him as well, which, of course, is their right. But that means
9 that we can't start him until, effectively, Wednesday. Which in any
10 event, I think, would be the case because of the delay in him getting his
11 visa, even if the Defence didn't want to talk to him. He's likely to --
12 he will certainly take all of Wednesday, for the most part in chief; and
13 judging by the estimates for cross-examinations, Thursday.
14 But we don't have the witness that we wanted to, or we've just
15 stopped the witness coming because of the statement, and also it
16 transpires that although he's -- his English statement was disclosed some
17 time ago, way back in June, for some unknown reason it's fallen through
18 the cracks again. We didn't translate it into the language of the
19 accused.
20 We therefore inform -- we informed the Defence last week that if
21 we were starting to run out of witnesses, which we might because the
22 videolink is set for Tuesday on the basis of this particular witness, we
23 were proposing to call Dorothea Hanson to deal with Crisis Staffs.
24 Now, the Defence were told this last week, but I think it's
25 caused some consternation that we're proposing to put this witness in.
Page 843
1 But that's the only way that we can, at the moment, fill the required
2 time.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: So are you asking that Ms. Hanson be called to
4 testify on Friday?
5 MS. KORNER: Yes, that's what we're hoping to do, and I can see
6 Mr. Pantelic is on his feet.
7 MR. PANTELIC: I would like to underline that we are not in a
8 state of consternation, please.
9 MS. KORNER: I am so sorry. I shouldn't have used that
10 expression. But that's the situation, Your Honours. It's either
11 effectively Ms. Hanson or nothing.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: And for how long will the examination-in-chief of
13 Ms. Hanson last?
14 MS. KORNER: Well, we gave the lawyer a shock, too, who was going
15 to call her, when we said we would do it, so we're checking. I would
16 have thought the standard for an expert, I think you allowed us an hour.
17 Yes. I think it's unlikely to be longer.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: And so -- and what is the position of the Defence
19 teams?
20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, it's not so much consternation as
21 objection to calling Dorothea Hanson Friday. We are not in a position to
22 be ready for an expert on such short notice. Things have changed. We
23 were advised on the 2nd that Hanson and someone else may be interspersed,
24 but clearly the assumption there, I think, is that if we ran out of
25 witnesses during the course of October, then Hanson and the other person
Page 844
1 would come in. But we're not prepared today, learning today, to be able
2 to cross-examine an expert who has a very large and important report and
3 whose subject matter is very important to the Defence.
4 So your order to grant us relief that precludes the Friday's
5 witness, because of late disclosure after the 31st of July, we say is
6 there to protect us.
7 Now, we shouldn't be put in a position where we're granted relief
8 on the one hand because of late disclosure after 31st July, and then be
9 told on Monday that the - did I mention the name? - the Crisis Staff
10 expert is coming. We're not prepared for that. We cannot be prepared to
11 adequately cross-examine this witness. We would need more lead time.
12 MR. PANTELIC: And just for the record, the Zupljanin Defence is
13 standing along these lines of Mr. O'Sullivan. Thank you.
14 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, you see, this is -- I'm sorry. I
15 didn't realise you were discussing matters.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE HALL
18 could you remind us as to who you have scheduled for Monday? Your
19 videolink witness is Tuesday.
20 MS. KORNER: Yes.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 MS. KORNER: Monday would have been the witness -- I've forgotten
23 his number. In fact, I'm reminded, we've got one other witness before --
24 or, sorry, after Witness 181 and that's ST-13. I've forgotten about
25 ST-13; a small witness. We were going to have the witness that, as a
Page 845
1 result of checking the searches, we can't call because there is an extra
2 statement. I mean -- and in fact, we've stopped the witness now.
3 But the realistic thing is, Your Honours, is the Defence could
4 quite easily read this statement themselves and see that it doesn't --
5 we've had it read -- it doesn't really add anything at all. But,
6 Your Honours, having said, unless the Defence agree we can't call them --
7 JUDGE HALL
8 that when next -- assuming that the Chamber's inclined to agree with the
9 difficulties that -- with the position taken by the Defence in terms of
10 your proposed witness for Friday, when next would she be available?
11 MS. KORNER: Yes. Oh, that witness. No, no. She's here.
12 There's no problem. She can give evidence any time.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 MS. KORNER: She's a proper fill in, because we can get hold of
15 her at any time.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 Defence is: If not Friday, when? This witness is available at any time
18 according to Ms. Korner. As I said, assuming we agree with you that
19 Friday is a surprise to you and you shouldn't be expected to meet it,
20 when?
21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, we would just like to have more notice
22 than four days. I mean -- and we acknowledge that the Prosecution has
23 been courteous enough to give us names for the whole month of October,
24 and it's a question of balance. I can't say it's more than --
25 JUDGE HALL
Page 846
1 trying to -- to avoid gaps. If this is a witness who is basically
2 available any time, to avoid a recurrence of your being caught by
3 surprise at four days' notice, now that you are on notice, when -- would
4 you wish to volunteer to the Prosecution when would be appropriate to
5 call her? But that's an aside.
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. It was -- the circumstances of the late
7 discovery by the Prosecution that has affected Friday's witness, so ...
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I mean, we could -- one of the ways we
9 could deal with this is if my learned friends consider that Monday's
10 sufficient notice, she could be dealt with on Monday in chief. We could
11 do the videolink witness on Tuesday, and we anticipate Wednesday, and
12 then return for her to cross-examination. The one thing we don't want is
13 for her to -- her cross-examination to be delayed for a long time,
14 because she's working on other trials and she needs to be able to talk to
15 other members of the office.
16 Alternatively, we could use one of the days, I suppose, to sort
17 out the rest of the outstanding motions. But I mean, that's -- I'm
18 sorry. And I appreciate that we take responsibility for the fact that
19 this particular statement slipped through the net, and I'm afraid it's
20 teething problems at the beginning of a case, but that's where we are.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, do I understand it well that if
22 ST-177 falls out, you don't have a witness on Monday either?
23 MS. KORNER: No, because --
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
25 MS. KORNER: Because 177 would have taken up Monday.
Page 847
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: The Chamber has considered the matter, what to
4 do, and we are also concerned about the loss of time, because every time
5 we lose out a witness the ending of the Prosecution's case is being
6 pushed further out in the end, so our proposal is that you call
7 Ms. Hanson for examination-in-chief on Friday, and you spend that one
8 hour with her and then we adjourn. And we would then ask the Defence
9 teams to be ready to begin their cross-examination on Monday and complete
10 on Wednesday.
11 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think --
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: That should give -- sorry. That should give the
13 Defence counsels a reasonable time to prepare. And it also gives them
14 the advantage of having heard the examination-in-chief and then have
15 extra time, actually, between the examination-in-chief and the
16 cross-examination.
17 So in light of this advantage that the Defence teams get of not
18 having to proceed immediately to the cross-examination, the Chamber
19 thinks that this is a reasonable solution to -- to at least save some
20 time.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just mention it's likely that the
22 videolink witness will go into Wednesday. I anticipate that certainly
23 one of my learned friends has got quite a lot to ask.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, let's have your witness.
Page 848
1 MS. KORNER: Can Your Honour just forgive me while I leave court
2 for five minutes. Thank you very much.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. Can the next witness
4 Mirzet Karabeg be brought into court ready for his testimony, please.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, no protective measures apply to
6 this witness; is that correct?
7 MR. DI FAZIO: No, Your Honours.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 WITNESS: MIRZET KARABEG
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HALL
15 Your name, sir, is?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mirzet Karabeg.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lawyer.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 sir.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born in Sanski Most,
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the 20th of December, 1943
23 JUDGE HALL
24 afternoon is the Prosecution, whose witness you are, will ask you
25 questions for about 20 minutes, because this is an expedited hearing,
Page 849
1 after which the lawyers for the two accused would each have an
2 opportunity to ask you questions for a slightly longer period of time.
3 After that cross-examination, there may be re-examination by the counsel
4 who has called you, and the Bench may have some questions, and when that
5 is over, you would be released. Do you understand?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 Mr. Di Fazio.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks, Your Honours.
10 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
11 Q. Witness, in addition to the personal details you provided, you
12 are also a Bosniak by ethnicity; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. You've testified here in a number of cases, and in
15 particular I want to direct your attention to your testimony in the case
16 against Brdjanin and General Talic, and you testified in that case, I
17 believe, on the 27th of May, 28th, 29th, and 30th of May, 2002; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And when you provided that testimony back then in 2002, did you
21 endeavour to answer your questions as honestly and accurately as you
22 could?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And have you had an opportunity of reviewing your testimony by
25 the use of audio files or audio CDs?
Page 850
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And if you were to be examined again on the same topics, asked
3 the same questions again about the same topics, would you provide the
4 same evidence to this Trial Chamber?
5 A. Yes, I would.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, in accordance with the
8 decision that you rendered on the 2nd of October, 2009, I'd like to seek
9 the admission of the transcripts of his evidence together with a number
10 of 65 ter exhibits. Do Your Honours want me to enumerate those
11 65 ter numbers now into the record?
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE HALL
14 as usual, and you may leave it to the Registry system to indicate the
15 sub-numbers as necessary. Of course, if in the course -- if it is
16 necessary for you to identify a particular item from the subgroup, we
17 devise a means for you to do that. But for the time being, it's
18 sufficient for the transcript and its accompanying documents to be
19 tendered and marked with the next number in the series.
20 Mr. Pantelic, you have a difficulty?
21 MR. PANTELIC: No, Your Honour, I don't have difficulty, but I
22 would just like to excuse myself for interrupting this line of
23 questioning that my learned friend Mr. Di Fazio is just commencing. I
24 would like to know, in terms of our future preparation, if that's true
25 that this witness, Mr. Karabeg, testified in other cases than Mr. -- than
Page 851
1 Brdjanin, because if that's the case, we don't have any record or any
2 documents or transcript from. So if my learned friend can clarify that.
3 And if that's the case, I would instruct my associate to look for -- for
4 these additional documents.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: At least in the Krajisnik case. Just that. And
6 that was in May 2004. Thank you.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE HALL
9 concern may have been a reflection of the way that counsel's question
10 came out.
11 But, Mr. Di Fazio, the Prosecution is only -- is only relying on
12 the transcript in Brdjanin. Isn't that the position?
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Absolutely.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I just mentioned that --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for counsel.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: My microphone is not working. Can you hear me
18 now? Can you hear me now?
19 JUDGE HALL
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. The Prosecution's only using --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone is inactive again.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: It appears to be switched on and red. It's
23 also -- the red button is here, Your Honours. But I can hear myself,
24 that my voice is not coming through.
25 JUDGE HALL
Page 852
1 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I wish to thank my
4 learned friend Mr. Di Fazio also. Thank you.
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, if we're having technical
6 difficulties, perhaps I can say -- ask a question before we proceed, and
7 that has to do with the exhibits that are going to be tendered in
8 conjunction with this statement, and it's unclear to us how that's going
9 to be identified in the record. Which exhibits from the Brdjanin
10 transcript are actually on the 65 ter list and the cross-reference to the
11 exhibit number in the Brdjanin and the exhibit number in our case.
12 Because we're going to be reading the Brdjanin transcript that has an
13 exhibit number, P1; that same document may be P50 in our case. And
14 without a cross-reference you can't read and understand the Brdjanin
15 transcript.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE HALL
19 responsibility of sub-numbering the exhibits. Whatever number they would
20 have had before in the previous trial would fall away, and that would be
21 provided to the parties as soon as -- as soon as that exercise is
22 complete. Does that answer your concern?
23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 MR. DI FAZIO: I think they are. I think you can hear me clearly
Page 853
1 now.
2 Very well. I want to show the witness some photographs if
3 Your Honours please, that are already on our 65 ter list. Could the
4 witness please be shown 65 ter 2145.
5 Q. Witness -- Mr. Karabeg, do you recognise that place?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is it?
8 A. These are stalls at Manjaca where we were kept.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: I seek to tender that photograph into evidence.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P55, Your Honours.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. The next photo I'd like the witness to
14 be shown is 65 ter 2146.
15 Q. What about those buildings? Do you recognise those buildings?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Again, what are they?
18 A. These are also the stalls -- or, rather, stables at Manjaca. And
19 most probably these are the three stables in the second camp where
20 they -- we were, and I was in this one in the centre, in the stable in
21 the centre.
22 Q. Thank you. Were those three buildings used to accommodate
23 prisoners?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 854
1 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender that photograph.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 in the series.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P56, Your Honours.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you for that. And may the witness be shown
6 64 -- 65 ter 2144. Could we have it just a bit bigger if possible.
7 Thank you.
8 Q. Witness, I'm not so much interested in the people who you can see
9 in the photograph unless, of course, you happen to recognise any one
10 individual. But in particular, do you recognise the buildings and
11 structures that you can see in the background?
12 A. I do recognise them. On the right-hand side is another stable;
13 it's also a stable. And the roof that we see there, that was the kitchen
14 where the food was prepared and where we got our food.
15 Q. So the kitchen was out in the open, was it, just covered by that
16 roof?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender that photograph.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P57, Your Honours.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Can the witness be shown 65 ter 2143.
23 Q. Again, forgetting the individuals you see in that particular
24 photograph and looking at the interior of that building, do you recognise
25 it?
Page 855
1 A. This is the interior of a stable.
2 Q. At Manjaca?
3 A. At Manjaca, yes. The same stables that we've been shown before.
4 And I apologise for one thing. We camp inmates do not refer to this as
5 premises. We call them stables because they were stables, and they were
6 used for keeping cattle in before we were arrested and brought there.
7 Q. Thank you. In your time at Manjaca did you ever see prisoners
8 assembled in that fashion, that is, gathered along in a corridor, so to
9 speak, leading alongside the fences, the iron fences, with their shoes
10 neatly arranged in front of them and sitting down in that fashion? Did
11 you ever see that sort of collection of prisoners in that -- in that
12 manner of gathering?
13 A. Yes. Here in this stable there were three rows. Here we have
14 the central row and then to the left and the right we all sat there
15 arranged like this. We were in two rows.
16 Q. How and when did this arrangement occur?
17 A. I really can't tell you because I arrived at Manjaca on the
18 28th of May -- on the 28th of August, 1992, and this camp had become
19 operational or had been opened in early June 1992.
20 Q. In the time that you were at Manjaca, did you ever see the
21 prisoners collected in that fashion as depicted in that photograph?
22 A. Yes. Yes. This was done as ordered by those who actually were
23 in charge of Manjaca. These were policemen and soldiers. We referred to
24 them as the motley group because they had on camouflage uniforms,
25 multicoloured.
Page 856
1 Q. Okay. And just tell the Trial Chamber, if you can, was this the
2 common way for prisoners to be assembled inside these stables, or was
3 this a fairly unusual method of assembling them?
4 A. This was the common way.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that into
7 evidence.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P58, Your Honours.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Can the witness be shown 65 ter 2255.
11 Thank you.
12 Q. Do you recognise that structure there with the red-painted
13 apparently steel doors.
14 A. I recognise it.
15 Q. Thanks. And tell the Trial Chamber what that place is.
16 A. This is a camp, a concrete camp, in Sanski Most where I was
17 detained also, in the third garage.
18 Q. So you use the word "garage." What sort of garage was it? Was
19 it used to keep motor vehicles in there prior to the war, or was it used
20 for some other purpose?
21 A. Yes, it was used for motor vehicles before the war.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: And I seek to tender that photograph into
24 evidence.
25 JUDGE HALL
Page 857
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P59, Your Honours.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. And I would now like to show the witness
3 65 ter 2422. And in particular, I would like to show the witness page 41
4 of the B/C/S version, and the translation appears at page 38 of the
5 English.
6 I don't think that we've got the right English. Certainly the
7 B/C/S is correct, and it's the correct page as well. Would Your Honours
8 just give me a moment, please.
9 No. No. The -- the B/C/S version, I understand, had an entry
10 that I was interested in at 0037-9462. That was the ERN.
11 MR. HICKS: Your Honours, just a quick intervention before the --
12 just for the record, this document was not noted in the list to be used
13 in direct examination that was provided to the Defence. Thank you.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 the -- Mr. Di Fazio can get that sorted out in the interim.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll do that, Your Honours.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE HALL
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
23 Q. Witness -- Mr. Karabeg, I should say, you were asked questions
24 about the document, part of which is in front of you on the screen, in
25 the Brdjanin case, and you were asked about a number of entries in
Page 858
1 that -- in this document. I just want to direct your attention to the
2 entry that you see in front of you, and I want you to look in particular
3 at item 4. Can you -- can you see that clearly or not? We can possibly
4 enlarge it a little bit further for you.
5 Perhaps I can hasten things by just reading it and then ask you a
6 question. Item 4 says:
7 "Take into custody ..."
8 And then a number of names follow.
9 In your testimony you said --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: And for the parties they'll find this at T -- or
11 transcript 6139, 6139.
12 Q. In your testimony you said you were arrested on the 25th of May.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This item 4 says:
15 "Take into custody..."
16 Various people. And I'll read out their names. And I want I
17 want to know from you is if in the -- at the time of your arrest on the
18 25th of May, you said you were taken to the police station in
19 Sanski Most, whether you saw any of these people either on the day or in
20 the days following.
21 Adil Draganovic. Did you see that man after your arrest or on
22 the day of your arrest?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. What about Redzo Kurbegovic? Did you see him?
25 A. I did. I did.
Page 859
1 Q. Stipo Catic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Ismet Jakupovic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Nihad Kljucanin?
6 A. I didn't see Nihad that day.
7 Q. Okay. And what about in the days -- say, the two or three days
8 after your arrest? Did you see him then? And if you didn't, just say
9 so.
10 A. I did. I did. Not on that day, the 25th of May, just that day.
11 Q. Okay. Well, when did -- approximately when did you see him in
12 relation to the 25th? Was it months later or in the following days?
13 A. I think it was either Wednesday or Thursday. So that could have
14 been the 28th or the -- actually, the 27th or the 28th of May when he was
15 brought to the cell where I was.
16 Q. Thank you for that. Nedzad Muhic. Did you see him on the day of
17 your arrest or in the days immediately following?
18 A. On the day of the arrest.
19 Q. And Hasib Kamber?
20 A. I saw Hasib Kamber perhaps about a month after that, some 20 days
21 to a month later, since the time that I was arrested on the
22 25th of May, 1992.
23 Q. Thank you for that clarification.
24 Ahmet Paunovic?
25 A. I saw Ahmet Paunovic only at Manjaca.
Page 860
1 Q. Thanks. And Hase Osmancevic?
2 A. I saw Hase Osmancevic precisely on the 25th of May. He was
3 arrested on the same day that I was.
4 Q. And finally, Fikret Saletovic?
5 A. The same, on the 25th of May. I'm not saying 1992 here, because
6 it all took place in 1992. So that is implied.
7 Q. Thanks.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, that forms part of the
9 92 ter package of this witness. I don't think I need to seek to tender
10 it into evidence or have it marked for identification at this juncture.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, I think it would make sense to
13 first have the transcripts tendered into evidence and admitted into
14 evidence. And then once we have an exhibit number for each of the
15 transcripts, then we can assign sub-numbers to each of the documents that
16 go with them. So if you would please tender the transcripts as they
17 come.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Transcripts or documentary exhibits?
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, the system is that we -- we admit
20 the transcripts as the main exhibit, and if you have two or three
21 transcripts, then we will give them two or three exhibit numbers, one
22 number each. Now, if, in the tail of each of these transcripts a number
23 of documents follow, then they will be given sub-exhibit numbers.
24 So if this document relates to one of the transcripts, then we
25 first give an exhibit number to this transcript, it's going to be P60;
Page 861
1 and then all the documents that follow in the tail or within the ambit of
2 this transcript will then be given sub-numbers such as 60.1, 6.2, 60.3,
3 and so on.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: That's clear to me. And so therefore that process
5 should be an automatic one in respect of this particular document.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes except that we haven't given actually exhibit
7 numbers to the main transcripts. So we need those first, and then we
8 will --
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well. Then I would certainly seek to give
10 the transcripts principal exhibit numbers, if Your Honours please.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Then get on with it.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
13 THE REGISTRAR: The transcript will become P60, Your Honours.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't have any further questions of this witness
15 if Your Honours please. I'll seek to tender this particular document.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE HALL
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I begin, Your Honours?
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Karabeg. I am Slobodan Cvijetic, co-counsel
23 in the Mico Stanisic Defence team.
24 A. Good afternoon. Nice to meet you.
25 Q. I have no intention of asking you about what you went through at
Page 862
1 Betonirka and Manjaca. In any event, we read that in your testimony, and
2 that speaks for itself. And may I just say that nobody would wish
3 anything like that to be repeated to anyone again.
4 What I'm interested in is what happened afterwards when you
5 crossed into the territory of the Bosnian forces. Can you tell us the
6 date when that happened?
7 A. I think that this was on the 31st of October, 1992.
8 Q. If you can perhaps tell us in a couple of sentences how this
9 happened, how you managed to get to the territory under the control of
10 the Bosnian forces?
11 A. It was like this: While we were in the camp, that day -- I'm not
12 able to be specific about the date. Perhaps it was the 30th or the
13 31st of October. After breakfast it was announced that an exchange would
14 be effected that day, and one of the inmates told me that I was on that
15 list.
16 Sometime -- actually, I remember that it was a nice day, so at
17 some point about -- well, 61 of us were called out from those two camps.
18 We were taken in front of the building of the camp administration. We
19 were told that we would be exchanged, 61 of us.
20 We went to a bus. There were four guards. But we inmates, as we
21 were watching the buses passing by, because each bus had to pass by the
22 camp, we would be watching if the inmates were sitting normally and
23 looking through the windows or if their heads were bent forward.
24 There were four guards. There was half a bus, and then
25 immediately they started beating us, and they said, Nobody should raise
Page 863
1 their head. You need to keep your heads down.
2 This was half way along the route which went through Mrkonjic and
3 Jajce and over Mount Vlasic
4 waited, actually at Mount Vlasic
5 this exchange.
6 Then there were these two men who were wearing precisely Chetniks
7 uniforms, with beards, and they had ammunition cross-belts and weapons,
8 large knives, and they asked the guard who had brought us in the bus to
9 give them two of us so that they could slit our throats. The guard said,
10 What's the matter? Are you crazy?
11 They refused to do that, but this lasted for about two hours, you
12 know. After that, our bus set off. We were brought to Turbe, and we
13 were exchanged in Turbe. I think the Serbs were coming out of one bus.
14 We were coming out of this bus. They went to their territory. We went
15 to our territory.
16 One thing we did notice, and that was that those Serbs who were
17 exchanged, they were all looking well. They were shaved. Their clothes
18 were ironed. We noticed that. Whereas we were all crumpled, dirty,
19 because of the conditions we had been living in.
20 The exchange was completed. We stayed in Turbe, and then from
21 Turbe we were taken to Travnik and we were placed somewhere. I don't
22 know where the people who had been exchanged were placed.
23 Q. When we're talking about the Manjaca camp administration, do you
24 know who the administrator or the warden was? Do you know his name?
25 A. He was a colonel. He was from Montenegro. I didn't remember his
Page 864
1 name.
2 Q. Was he a military officer, and did he have that rank?
3 A. Yes. He was a military officer.
4 Q. All right. Very well. What we started to talk about, I'm
5 interested in this: Did you begin to participate in the political life
6 in the territory under the control of Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslims at that
7 point in time?
8 A. Yes. I was involved in politics even before I was arrested.
9 Q. All right. But -- so was this the case when you came back?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. Please, because this is cross-examination. My time is limited.
12 So my -- my time is running out. So can you just list these things.
13 A. Well, let me tell you. I immediately got involved in
14 establishing the civilian authorities of the War Presidency of the
15 Sanski Most municipality with a provisional seat in Zenica and then in
16 Travnik, because before the war I was the President of the
17 Executive Board of the Sanski Most municipality.
18 Q. All right.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would I like
20 Witness -- the witness to be shown 1D00-4515, please.
21 Q. Mr. Karabeg, on the left side you can see the version in B/C/S.
22 Do you recognise this document?
23 A. Well, can you perhaps zoom in a little bit? The letters are too
24 small. I cannot see to read.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If the Chamber has nothing against
Page 865
1 that, I have a copy which is -- which has bigger print. Perhaps I can
2 show that to the witness if the Trial Chamber permits.
3 Q. Can you please look at this document now. It's the second column
4 to the right under number II. Is that your name?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. This is the decision appointing you as vice-president of the
7 War Presidency.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. So you were the vice-president.
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Well, from what I understood, this decision replaced an earlier
12 decision on the establishment of the War Presidency. That's what it says
13 on the second page. I'm going to show it later in the final remarks and
14 provisions - we're colleagues, so you know how that goes. Anyway, can
15 you, please, tell us when was the first time that you become a member of
16 the War Presidency?
17 A. Well, I became a member of the War Presidency for the first time
18 when it was formed. This was in early 1993, because all these citizens
19 in the municipality of Sanski Most and the refugees had heard that I had
20 been exchanged, and they were waiting for me to become involved as an
21 official representative of the legitimate local authorities.
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to the second page of
23 this document.
24 Q. You have a couple of these transitional provisions where it says
25 that War Presidency practically replaced the legal and official organs
Page 866
1 until they are able to convene. Did I understand correctly the essence
2 of the jurisdiction of the War Presidencies?
3 A. Yes, you did.
4 Q. And then the next provision says that War Presidencies are
5 obliged to prepare the terrain for the legal organs of authority on the
6 territory under the control of Bosnian Muslims.
7 A. Yes. Just one moment. What it said is that they are ready to
8 take over authority once they came to Sanski Most.
9 Q. Can you please look at the end where it says that with this
10 decision the decision on the formation and elections of the
11 War Presidency ceases to be in effect. The earlier decision. So you
12 would agree with me that there was a War Presidency from earlier but that
13 you became a member when it says here?
14 A. No.
15 Q. How do you interpret this provision that it substitutes the
16 previous War Presidency?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. You cannot interpret it?
19 A. No, I cannot.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Karabeg, please observe a small pause between
21 question and answer, because it is impossible for the interpreters to
22 follow you.
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
24 Q. Can you tell us now? Can you interpret that provision? If you
25 can take a look and read it. What it says there is --
Page 867
1 A. Which provision?
2 Q. I apologise. You would have to give this back to me so that I
3 can point it out.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we please get page 3 of the English version.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. It is Roman numerals XX. The two X's there. Can you read that
7 paragraph, please?
8 A. It says:
9 "When this decision comes into effect it supersedes the decisions
10 on the election of presidents and members of the Wartime Presidencies of
11 the municipal assemblies."
12 Well, you see, this was in 1993. Some municipalities already had
13 Wartime Presidencies in place, and they had provisional seats in Zenica
14 and Travnik. Some people would leave the Presidency and then they
15 needed -- new members needed to be elected. And here it does not
16 specifically mention Sanski Most. It mentions -- it actually provides
17 for War Presidencies in various municipalities. And this was necessary
18 because a huge number of people had been expelled, and all these people
19 had to be re-elected, and then they had to get to know what it was to
20 do -- they were to do, then once the Presidencies were formed, this was
21 on the territory in place.
22 Q. Sir, so you agree with me that there were in some towns there
23 already were War Presidencies but they only had different memberships, if
24 I'm correct?
25 A. Well, let me explain it like this. Had I, by any chance, arrived
Page 868
1 there in July or August 1992, I'm certain that the Sanski Most
2 municipality would have a Wartime Presidency then, and some
3 municipalities already did.
4 Q. Well, that was the gist of my question. Some municipalities did
5 have War Presidencies in place. That's all I was asking about.
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
8 questions for this witness. Thank you.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Just a second. I will organise my stuff,
10 please.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, or good evening. My name is
13 Igor Pantelic --
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for
15 interrupting my colleague, but I failed to submit this document for
16 admittance into evidence. I apologise. If we could just get a number
17 assigned to them.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D10 under seal -- no, it's not under
19 seal, Your Honours. I apologise.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: Thank you.
21 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, while we are on the same topic, I
22 don't believe that we have exhibit number for Prosecution for OTP
23 document 2422. This is a kind of diary or -- so maybe my colleague
24 Gramsci -- Mr. Di Fazio can clarify that or ...
25 MR. DI FAZIO: We discussed this. It's going to be part of
Page 869
1 the -- of the 65 ter package as Your Honours made it very clear you will
2 be giving the one exhibit number with sub-numbers, and that will be
3 assigned in due course.
4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I understand, because maybe it was a bit of
5 confusion, because it was on the list of OTP, but, okay, we can move on.
6 No problem.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Karabeg, I apologise for these few
8 procedural matters.
9 If I understood you correctly, you are an attorney; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you have your own office, and you're still employed; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Tell me, please, do you remember -- namely, you gave several
14 statements to the Prosecution, and I have a statement of yours dated
15 July 2nd, 2004
16 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, please.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Here on the second page we can see that this is
18 not really a statement. Rather, it is some clarification that you're
19 making here. Could you please read it to yourself?
20 A. Do you mean the portion where it says:
21 "On the 29th of May ..." and so on?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Well, all right. I'll read it to myself. That's why I was
24 asking.
25 Q. So the way I understand your statement here is you're saying here
Page 870
1 that you testified in the Krajisnik case in 2004; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Next you say that you were referring to certain notes in your
4 diary in the course of that testimony.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then you concluded that you were unable to locate those
7 notes; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And this diary that was your personal journal, you had given it
10 to an investigator, Mr. Tollefsen; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then you go on to say that you fled from Sanski Most on the
13 25th of May, 1992; is that correct?
14 A. That's what it says there.
15 Q. And did you sign this statement?
16 A. Well, let me tell you this. I have the original prepared by this
17 gentleman here, and I know what it says there, and I am sure that this
18 was added here, because I already had a suspicion that this gentleman
19 would abuse or misuse this document.
20 I did not flee Sanski Most on the 25th of May, 1992, and you can
21 see there were exact quotations about Sanski Most, and his conduct was
22 such that it gave rise to my suspicions that he might add something to
23 the notes.
24 It is true that I did write some things and I did provide him
25 with a brief notebook. I don't know what -- what he said who he was.
Page 871
1 I'm not sure.
2 MR. PANTELIC: Just a second, please, just to consult with my
3 colleagues, please.
4 Q. All right, sir. But certainly you stand by your statement here
5 that you had fled from Sanski Most on the 25th of May, 1992.
6 A. No. How could I have fled when I was actually arrested on the
7 25th of May, 1992, at 1700 hours -- 1750 hours, and I was taken to the
8 police station in Sanski Most?
9 Q. So what you signed, you did not sign true facts in this
10 statement; right?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. But you did sign it?
13 A. Well, I did not sign the statement in this form. I did sign it,
14 but not in this form, not this.
15 Q. All right. Let's move on to another topic. You graduated from
16 law school in Sarajevo
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What year was this?
19 A. 1975.
20 Q. At the time, you probably had to take an exam in a curriculum
21 called constitution law; correct?
22 A. Your Honours, I really don't understand where he's headed with
23 this question.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 to the instructions of his clients, and unless the Court finds -- unless
Page 872
1 the Chamber finds it irrelevant, then you're required to answer. So at
2 this point the Chamber's prepared to presume that he has a point.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I did. I did have that
4 curriculum. I went and attended the course.
5 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Your Honours, may I -- my dear colleague, I have to ask you a
7 question because I read your -- the transcript from the Brdjanin case,
8 and I know that on that occasion you had some legal discussions with
9 Mr. Ackerman at the time, but you're here a fact witness, so please
10 answer my questions with a yes or no, because the system here is a bit
11 different to the system that is used in Europe. So I am entitled to
12 leading questions during cross-examination. So let's just move on.
13 Now, would you agree with me that during the Tito regime, the
14 so-called Tito regime, the -- in Bosnia and Herzegovina there was a
15 system in place which provided for so-called equality of all three
16 constituent ethnicities; correct?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
18 The interpreter is not sure if it's yes or no.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, unfortunately -- thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, yes. I've answered.
21 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Your answer is yes; correct?
23 A. Yes. And this is the third or fourth time that I'm repeating it.
24 Yes.
25 Q. I heard you very well, colleague, but it was not in the
Page 873
1 transcript, and it's important that it be there, and that is why I am
2 repeating it.
3 So the constitutional system in Bosnia and Herzegovina
4 system which provided for the protection of the vital interests of each
5 of the constitutional ethnicities or nations; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And this was the case also after the multi-party elections in
8 1992; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Maybe you didn't have occasion recently to come across the
11 constitutional provisions, but if I tell you that there was a council for
12 the equality of nations based on the constitutional amendments, you would
13 agree with me, right, that it was in existence during the regime in
14 Bosnia and Herzegovina then; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Just a correction to the transcript. I said the
17 constitutional regime, not regime in Bosnia. Thank you.
18 Q. [Interpretation] And based on the so-called Dayton Constitution,
19 which is now in force in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there is also a system
20 in place that is to provide the vital interests of each of the
21 constituent nations and ethnicities; correct?
22 A. Yes, through the parliamentary system.
23 Q. I would like your opinion on something. You've probably heard of
24 Belgium
25 and the Flemish, the so-called alarm-bell system. Are you aware of this?
Page 874
1 Have you heard of this system?
2 A. Yes, well the portion that was towards France and the other one
3 that is here. So the Valonians and the Flemish, yes.
4 Q. In the period prior to 1992, and this should include both the
5 single-party and the multi-party period, would you agree with me that
6 this system of national or ethnic quotas or the distribution of functions
7 between the three different constituent ethnicities in Bosnia-Herzegovina
8 was abided by? Correct?
9 A. Yes. But if you allow me a comment, beginning in November 1943,
10 of course, there were both Croats and Serbs and Muslims in
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina. So Bosnia and Herzegovina
12 nor Croat nor Serbian -- or, rather, it was both Bosnian and Serbian and
13 Croat.
14 Q. And I assume that this practice was in place also in Sanski Most,
15 the practice of respect for each of the three constituent ethnicities or
16 nationalities; correct?
17 A. Yes, up until a certain point.
18 Q. What point?
19 A. Well, let's say up until April 1992. And I'm just speaking here
20 of Sanski Most.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm sure that this will
22 all become clear, but it's not clear to me at this stage that the
23 practice that Mr. Pantelic refers to and the witness seems to know what
24 he's talking about is clear to everyone else. The practice of respect,
25 is that a -- is that a reference to an entrenched legal system whereby
Page 875
1 respect is afforded to the other constituent peoples? Am I correct in
2 understanding the evidence in that fashion? It's not clear to me, and I
3 would like to know exactly with Mr. Pantelic means.
4 MR. PANTELIC: Gladly, yes. I will clarify that with the
5 witness.
6 Q. [Interpretation] So it's indisputable that the principles of the
7 protection of the vital interests of all the three constituent peoples in
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina were respected from the top of the pyramid to the
9 base where the municipalities were, if I can put it that way; is that
10 correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what you are saying now is that at a certain point, and this
13 is -- let's see what you've said. April 1992. In Sanski Most this
14 system of equality of all three peoples was not respected any more. Is
15 that correct? How did this look in practice in April in 1992?
16 A. Well, I would like you to ask me how it was up until April, if
17 you wish. I would prefer that. From the -- since the elections up until
18 April.
19 Q. Because we don't have much time, you agreed with me that up until
20 April in Sanski Most there was a kind of co-existence among the three
21 peoples; is that correct?
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. So this coalition was made up by the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ at
24 the level of Sanski Most; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 876
1 Q. And by inter-party agreements, you split up the posts according
2 to party quotas?
3 A. No, not according to the quotas but according to the result of
4 the elections from 1990.
5 Q. I understand. But as of April 1992, according to you, why was
6 this principle no longer respected? Can you please explain that to the
7 Trial Chamber briefly?
8 A. One of the peoples began to arrest, detain, and kill the two
9 other peoples, meaning that the Serbs began to arrest, prosecute, kill
10 non-Serbs, or, namely, Muslims and Croats. This was something that
11 started from April onwards. It was a kind of introduction. From the
12 3rd of April, I think, 1992, the Serbian Assembly was convened, which, as
13 an illegal organ, declared Sanski Most to be Serbian Sanski Most and that
14 Sanski Most was being joined to the Banja Luka region.
15 Q. You would agree with me, dear colleague, that Republika Srpska is
16 a reality, isn't it?
17 A. You mean now?
18 Q. Yes, I mean now.
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. And the entire constitutional system is protected by an
21 international contract or the Dayton Accords; isn't that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did Muslims kill Serbs in the environs of Sanski Most in that
24 period of April/May 1992? Were there such cases?
25 A. What exactly do you mean?
Page 877
1 Q. Did Muslims kill Serbs? Because you said that Serbs were killing
2 Muslims and Croats. So I'm putting a simple question to you. Now, a
3 very simple question --
4 A. No, they did not. No, they did not.
5 Q. Did Croats kill Serbs in the area of Sanski Most?
6 A. No, they did not. We're talking about Sanski Most area now.
7 Q. In 1992, did Muslims kill Serbs in the Sanski Most region?
8 A. No, they did not.
9 Q. Did Croats kill Serbs in the Sanski Most area in the course of
10 1992?
11 A. No, they did not.
12 Q. Let us now go back to a different topic, and that is, Are you
13 aware of the fact that the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina was
14 formed -- formed after the multi-party elections sometime in late 1991,
15 voted a declaration on the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina
16 you aware of that fact?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Who voted for this declaration?
19 A. The deputies.
20 Q. And which ethnicity were those deputies?
21 A. Well, I wasn't counting. The deputies voted and adopted that
22 decision.
23 Q. If I were to tell you that while voting for the declaration on
24 the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serb deputies left the
25 session because this was a violation of their vital right as a
Page 878
1 constituent people, and if I were to tell you that Muslim and Croat
2 deputies voted on that declaration, would you agree with me?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. All right. Tell me this: You are a lawyer after all, and you
5 have certain information or knowledge about the constitutional system of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 If Serbs were to walk out and had not taken part in this voting,
8 would, according to you, the vote conducted by the Croats and the Muslims
9 be something that constituted the violation of the rights of Serbs as a
10 constituent people of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Still, if I were to tell you, because I did study these matters
13 quite a lot, that the vital interests of Serbs were really, truly
14 violated, would you not confirm that assertion?
15 A. That is what you state.
16 Q. Yes, I do state that. So please, could you change your position?
17 Would you agree to change your position if I were to tell you that on the
18 basis of these principles there was a violation of the vital interests of
19 the Serbian people?
20 A. Well, you are trying to make me go the way you want. I don't
21 know. This is your interpretation. It's not my interpretation. Still,
22 I am giving you the answer that I don't know. Because there were loyal
23 Serbs and deputies in Sarajevo
24 passed it, and I'm still giving you the answer that I don't know. Don't
25 force me to give you answers.
Page 879
1 JUDGE HALL
2 you to break and decide how best to utilise your remaining 15 minutes.
3 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll do my best.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 cross-examination has not yet been completed, and therefore you must
6 return tomorrow. Now, because you are sworn as a witness in this matter,
7 you can't speak to the attorneys from either side, nor can you discuss
8 your testimony with anybody else. So any conversation you have with
9 persons other than the attorneys cannot relate to the testimony that you
10 have given here.
11 And I remind counsel and the parties that when we resume at 2.15
12 testimony it will be in Courtroom II. So we take the adjournment to 2.15
13 tomorrow afternoon.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day
16 of October, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.
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