Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 794

 1                           Monday, 5 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           WITNESS:  WITNESS ST-27 [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon.  We resume with the

 9     cross-examination of this witness, which was suspended on Friday

10     afternoon.

11             Mr. Witness, I would remind you that you're still under oath.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

13             Good afternoon, Witness.

14             Your Honours, may I continue?

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:  [Continued]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, I'm going to read a provision of the

17     Law on General People's Defence.  We spoke a little bit about

18     resubordination, and we spent a little bit of time on that.  And the law

19     regulates that, and it defines it much more succinctly.

20             So Article 104 states:

21             "In war during immediate danger of war or imminent danger of war,

22     and in other extraordinary circumstances, the police can be used also to

23     execute combat assignments of the armed forces pursuant to the law."

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note that we do not have the

25     original text in front us.

Page 795

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.    "During the time it is executing combat tasks" --

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I continue, Your Honour?  It's

 5     very brief.  It's a very brief provision.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What are you reading from?

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 104 of the Law on General People's

 8     Defence.  I'm only going to read it.  May I continue with paragraph 2:

 9              "During the time that they're executing combat assignments of

10     the armed forces, the police is resubordinated to the authorised senior

11     officer who is conducting the combat actions."

12        Q.   Witness, were you thinking about this provision when we were

13     talking about resubordination?  You're probably familiar with it.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Let us just remind ourselves.  You said that you were at the --

16     that you transferred to the National Defence Secretariat from the police

17     in March.  Is that correct?

18        A.   In late March and early April 1992, yes.

19        Q.   And you're aware of this provision, or you're familiar with this

20     provision of the law?

21        A.   Well, to say -- to put it -- actually, I didn't read that law,

22     but I understood the whole story basically from attending the police

23     academy before.

24        Q.   So you understood the gist of what we were talking about?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 796

 1        Q.   Now that we're talking about the resubordination provision, I'm

 2     going to describe a hypothetical situation to you now.  You would agree

 3     with me, would you not --

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have turned the microphone on.

 5        Q.   In such a situation, if the police officer or the unit that is

 6     resubordinated to the military police commits a serious crime or a war

 7     crime, according to what we have established so far they would be placed

 8     under the jurisdiction of the military judicial organs, the military

 9     investigative judge, the military prosecutor, and the military court.  Am

10     I correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Witness, this law and some other regulations that go with it

13     provide for the obligation of drafting war plans and the formation or the

14     establishment of War Staffs, whereby I'm not thinking of the military

15     pyramid from the supreme commander, the Supreme Staff, the armed forces,

16     and so on and so forth.  I'm not thinking about the armed component of

17     the armed forces because they had their own plans and their own staffs.

18     I am thinking of all the other subjects.

19             You are aware that all -- everyone had to have these plans, even

20     the economic subjects, companies, schools, municipalities.  I cannot be

21     sure, but I think this even applied to local communes.  Do you remember

22     that obligation to make plans?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And the organ of internal affairs was also subject to that

25     obligation, wasn't it?

Page 797

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   However, these plans do not resemble military plans of the army.

 3     They're not plans to execute combat actions, are they?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   Now I'm going to dwell a little bit on what is of interest to us,

 6     and that is the police.  We have already established that a certain

 7     proportion of the police could, according to an order by the supreme

 8     commander, be engaged in the armed forces, and that then places them

 9     outside of the jurisdiction of the police, placing them under the armed

10     forces.  However, the rest of the police force in war has to continue to

11     perform its regular tasks.  Isn't that correct?

12        A.   Yes, but I think that at any given time they are also essentially

13     subject or subordinate to the supreme military command structure.

14        Q.   Yes.  I agree with you that that is once the command decides to

15     place them under their jurisdiction, but some of them have to deal with

16     their regular assignments, with dealing with criminals, and so on.  No

17     region can be left without the activities of the police.

18        A.   Well, I cannot be sure, but I think in the case of imminent

19     danger of war the police or the militia would be engaged at the front or

20     on their own regular assignments, but they would still be subject to

21     decisions adopted by the military command, if I can put it that way.

22        Q.   So you believe that even the sector of the police that was not

23     directly engaged in combat actions are still subordinated to the military

24     command during wartime?

25        A.   Yes, during wartime, because at any point they can tell them --

Page 798

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness and Mr. Cvijetic, sorry, the

 3     interpreters did not get the last answer by the witness.  So if he could

 4     please repeat it so that we can hear what he said.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The witness would need to repeat

 6     his answer.  I don't need to repeat my question.  Is that correct?

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Why don't you just repeat it just to be sure.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   From what I understood you to say, you think that the rest of the

10     police was also subject to military command and would be subordinate to

11     the military command, because at any point in time they could be engaged

12     in action.  Am I correct?

13        A.   Yes.  I think that that is how it was.

14        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.

15             Witness, in closing I would like to read another portion from a

16     law.  You said that you completed the military academy at the -- the

17     police academy at the secondary level?

18        A.   Yes.  I completed the cadet school, the secondary level of

19     military academy.

20        Q.   So practically your profession is a policeman; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you are -- you were trained as a policeman?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   While you were employed, did you enjoy the status of an

25     authorised person?

Page 799

 1        A.   While I was in the police, with the police, yes; but when I was

 2     transferred to the Secretariat for the National Defence, then I ceased to

 3     be an authorised person.

 4        Q.   All right.  I would like to read now a -- an excerpt from a law,

 5     and I would just like to check with you whether you are aware of it.

 6             It reads as follows:

 7             "I declare that I will carry out" -- "discharge my duties as a

 8     authorised person in a responsible and ..."

 9             MS. KORNER:  Okay.  Could you tell us what you're reading please,

10     article, law?

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Certainly.  This is a provision

12     from the law on the interior, the provision number 14 of the Law on the

13     Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina which was in

14     force while the gentleman was undergoing training for police work.

15             May I -- may I continue, Your Honours?

16        Q.   So I have to repeat this.

17             "I declare that I will carry out the duties as an authorised

18     person in a conscientious and responsible manner; that I will abide by

19     the laws and the constitution; and that I will protect the constitutional

20     order, laws, rights, liberties, and security of the working people and

21     citizens to the best of my abilities; and that I will carry out these and

22     other responsibilities as an authorised person in a -- even in the event

23     where such duties and tasks may endanger my life."

24             Do you know what I've read from?

25        A.   Well, I believe that this is a -- an oath of office that we all

Page 800

 1     had to -- to take before we started our work.

 2        Q.   Yes, but under the law I believe that was called a solemn oath.

 3        A.   Yes, that's possible, but I can't really recall right now.

 4        Q.   Well, let me remind you.  That's what it says.  It says:

 5             "The text of the solemn oath reads as follows ..."

 6             And then comes what I've just read.

 7             Well, let me ask you then.  Did you take this solemn oath?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, I would now like to go back briefly to those plans

10     that all the other subjects have to prepare.  In practice these plans are

11     referred to as war plans.  Would it be more appropriate to use the term

12     "plans on the organisation and manner of operation of that particular

13     subject under wartime conditions"?  Would that explain more precisely

14     what exactly this law referred to?

15        A.   Yes, I believe so.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

17     questions for this witness.  But before I sit down, I would like to thank

18     the witness for his very fair and honest replies.  I believe that up

19     until this moment you have fully abided by the solemn declaration that

20     you gave at the beginning of this trial.

21             Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Cvijetic.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.  My name is

Page 801

 1     Dragan Krgovic, and I will put some questions on behalf of the Defence

 2     for Stojan Zupljanin that relate to your testimony a few days ago.

 3             Witness, in response to a question by the Prosecution and my

 4     colleague Cvijetic, you talked about the manner in which the

 5     Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina operated at the time

 6     in question, and my questions will relate precisely to those areas and

 7     responsibilities and work of some of the organs of the MUP.

 8             Are you familiar with the fact that under the old law there was

 9     especially -- a special service of state security within the structure of

10     the Ministry of the Interior?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And this was a separate organisational unit which had special

13     rules of service; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And although at times it would share the premises with the Public

16     Security Service, it was actually in charge of the special area of

17     responsibility which was the state security, and it did not get involved

18     in the public security aspects of work; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And they had special premises where other members of the police

21     could not -- or had no access without permission or authorisation;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   As far as you know, they had a separate chain of command and

25     practically they were a service within a service; correct?

Page 802

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In response to a question by the Prosecution, you said that you

 3     were --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's request:  Could the counsel

 5     please repeat his question.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I have to repeat my question because it didn't enter into the

 8     transcript.

 9             So you were arrested by some military persons, but you're not

10     sure whether these were reserve policemen or regular police -- or regular

11     army personnel?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   My question referred to military personnel, and what you just

14     said referred to military personnel; correct?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter correction --

16        A.   Yes, reserve military personnel, but whether they were regular

17     soldiers or not, I don't know, but they did wear army uniforms.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And after this you were questioned by members of the state

20     security?

21        A.   After I was brought to the security services centre, the first

22     contact I had was with a member of the state security whom I knew before.

23     I knew that he worked at this service, in this service.  And the second

24     contact that I had was with an inspector, but whether he was a member of

25     the regular police or state security, I'm not sure.  I don't know.

Page 803

 1        Q.   Do you remember whether you provided or made any statement to

 2     these individuals who questioned you?  Did you sign any statements?

 3        A.   During the first -- on that first occasion the gentleman who was

 4     a member of the state security offered that I sign a statement which said

 5     that I was arrested because I was allegedly an organiser of an armed

 6     rebellion, and I refused to sign this.

 7        Q.   I will get back to this question on how they treated you, but my

 8     general question, because you were an inspector, a crime inspector, the

 9     standard procedure in your work, crime inspector, would be to take a

10     statement from a witness, to collect evidence, and prepare a criminal

11     report which would then be forwarded to the authorised prosecutor;

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Following this, the prosecutor would decide whether there was

15     official grounds to undertake an investigation, and you as a policeman

16     had no further connections with the proceedings that were -- that he

17     would instigate, that he would start; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And whatever happened with the arrested individuals was really

20     not within your jurisdiction any more; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see 2D06-90097 -- 2D60-097

23     [as interpreted].

24        Q.   I will show you a copy of one of the statements that you gave to

25     the State Security Service, the Banja Luka section.  Please read it

Page 804

 1     carefully.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, do you know if there is --

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please keep this document

 4     under seal.  It is not to be broadcast.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Do you know if there is an English translation of

 6     the document?

 7             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, in e-court.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Yes.  It's on the screen.  Thank you

 9     very much.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the second page,

11     please.

12        Q.   And, Witness, could you check whether your signature is on this

13     page.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Would you repeat your answer, please?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And we can see your signature on each and every one of these

18     pages, at the bottom of the page?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you remember the questions that were put to you when you take

21     a look at this statement?  Does it reflect what you said on this occasion

22     while you were questioned by the state security?

23        A.   In view of the time elapsed, I cannot really vouch that

24     everything was written down as I said it, but for the most part all of it

25     is in there.

Page 805

 1        Q.   Well, more or less all the topics that you discussed are in

 2     there; correct?  I just need you to confirm whether, generally speaking,

 3     this is what you said.  Whether this content is or reflects what you

 4     said.

 5        A.   Generally speaking, yes.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 2D06 --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the second part of

 8     the number of this.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Could you repeat the number, please.

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  Sorry, second one or previous one?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note the counsel is switching his

12     microphone on and off, and we could not hear the entire number.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Could you please do it once again because the

14     microphone was switched on and off.

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 060097.  That was the

16     earlier exhibit.  Could we please admit it into evidence, and the witness

17     confirmed that this was in fact his document.

18             MS. KORNER:  No objection.

19             JUDGE HALL:  I suppose it's being admitted under seal.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That is correct, Your Honours.  It will be

21     Exhibit 2D2 under seal.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

23     060103, please.  And if I can, with the assistance of the Usher, could a

24     copy of this document be shown to the witness.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, can I just confirm it's not actually

Page 806

 1     going out over the monitors.  I just wanted to check.  That's right, is

 2     it?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  It is not being broadcast.  Thank you.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Witness, did you have -- did you have an opportunity to see this

 6     now?  Could you check that your signature is on this statement?

 7        A.   It is my signature, but I have not seen this before except at the

 8     time perhaps when it was noted down.

 9        Q.   But it more or less reflects what you talked about with the State

10     Security Service inspectors when you talked with them?

11        A.   More or less, yes, because I have nothing to hide.  Not then, so

12     I spoke openly.

13        Q.   And they mostly questioned you about what you knew about the

14     arming of the Muslim and the Croatian people, about meetings with certain

15     people, and whether you yourself had any weapons.  These were more or

16     less the topics of the conversation; is that correct?

17        A.   More or less, yes.

18        Q.   They also asked you to explain the origin of the automatic rifle

19     and pistol found in your house, and you gave the explanation as it is

20     stated in this statement; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have an exhibit number for

23     this exhibit, please, under seal.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted under seal.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D3 under seal, Your Honours.

Page 807

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I see that there is another statement coming now,

 4     and I would like to ask you if you would be good enough to explain to us

 5     what it is exactly that you wish the Court to extract from these

 6     statements other than the fact, of course, that he was questioned by the

 7     state security in June 1992.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I'm trying to

 9     demonstrate or show the Chamber that the procedure and the authorisation,

10     what they are of those people who conducted the procedure against this

11     witness, from the taking of the statement, to the criminal charges, to

12     the arrest of the witness, and so on and so forth, and under whose

13     jurisdiction he stayed in prison.  Also who is responsible for the abuse

14     of this witness while he was in prison.

15             This whole line of questioning will be based on a series of

16     documents showing who was in charge of him, who was questioning him, who

17     kept him in detention, and who beat him, whereby I wish to demonstrate

18     that this had nothing to do with my client.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  This is excellent information.  Thank you very

20     much.  And please help the Court to get to this point so that we can

21     understand the evidence that you bring.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Witness, I have another statement here that you provided to the

24     State Security Service.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could witness look at 2D06-0109,

Page 808

 1     please.

 2        Q.   Witness, I'm just going to show you the statement.  I'm not going

 3     to be dealing with it in detail.  Could you just confirm whether it is

 4     your signature, whether you gave this statement, and if you recall the

 5     conversation on which the statement was based?

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, perhaps I could save the Usher some

 7     time.  I don't need to be shown statements in B/C/S, which I can't read,

 8     and ask if I object to them.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Witness, have you had the opportunity to check whether this is

11     your signature on the statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And just as in the previous statement, does it more or less

14     reflect the conversation that you had with the members of the State

15     Security Service?

16        A.   Yes, more or less.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please be given an exhibit

18     number for this document, also under seal.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D3 under seal, Your Honours.

21     Apologies, Exhibit 2D4.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].

23        Q.   Just now I asked you about the procedure when an authorised

24     employee of the police completes the compilation of documents and the

25     interviews and then he submits criminal charges.  Did you have the

Page 809

 1     opportunity to see the criminal charges submitted against you together

 2     with the accompanying documents?

 3        A.   The criminal charges as such without the accompanying documents I

 4     did see for the first and last time when I was brought before the

 5     military prosecutor or the judge.  I'm not sure which.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 7     Exhibit 1D00-4474.  [In English] Mr. Usher, please.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, if I may.  You make a difference

 9     between -- you make a difference between State Security Service and

10     Public Security Service.  Now, I have the document.  You ask questions

11     about -- to the witness, and you say this is State Security Service.

12     What is -- what is indicated that it is state and not public?

13             MR. KRGOVIC:  That is correct, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  How can I see that it is state and not public?  I

15     see -- in the translation I see Security Service Centre.  I don't see

16     specified that it is state or public, but perhaps I'm missing something

17     here.

18             MS. KORNER:  Underneath.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Underneath?  I don't have the underneath.

20             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honour.  It says:

21             "Security Services Centre Banja Luka."

22             And then it says:

23             "SNB."

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  SNB.

25             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  National Security Service.

Page 810

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Could you please look at page 3 of this document just to see -- I

 4     think you are the last person on that list.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, but I would like to note that this is the first time that I

 6     am seeing these criminal charges in this form.

 7        Q.   Can you please look at the attachments carefully.  These are

 8     statements of persons who are referred to in the criminal charges and

 9     provided as attachments.

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  Could we move into private session for a moment,

11     Your Honours.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 811











11 Pages 811-813 redacted. Private session.















Page 814

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   We're now in open session, so please be careful, and I will, too,

12     in my questions, not to mention any fact that might point to your

13     identity, just as a reminder.

14             Now, once a criminal report was submitted, there would be a

15     decision made on conducting an investigation and on arrest on remand.  Is

16     that how it worked?  Do you agree?

17        A.   Well, in the normal circumstances that would be the regular

18     procedure.  However, I and these two other individuals were put in prison

19     without receiving any decision or anything of that sort, and it was only

20     a month later that we received the first paper that we could read and see

21     what it was that we were charged with.

22        Q.   And before that you said that you had refused to sign a statement

23     in -- at the station because you felt that you were not responsible for

24     what was being charged against you.  Do you recall that, saying that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 815

 1        Q.   The decision of -- by the Public Security Service to put you

 2     under arrest, that is what -- that is the type of decision I was

 3     referring to, and you were not given this decision to sign?

 4             MR. KRGOVIC:  I didn't say "public security," "state security."

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This was an A4 sheet of paper

 6     with two or three sentences on it, a very brief text, and I refused to

 7     sign that.  And as for this, this is the first time that I see this

 8     document.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   And the paper that you refused to sign stated that you were put

11     under arrest; correct?

12        A.   Well, about -- it was about something to that effect.

13        Q.   And following this, you received from a court -- you received a

14     court decision putting you under arrest.

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see 2D05-0037.

16     Just a moment.  Perhaps I can provide a copy, but I think it is easier to

17     read off the monitor.  2D0300 --

18             MS. KORNER:  00 what?

19             MR. KRGOVIC:  0037.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  0037.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   We can see here that you and the other two colleagues that were

23     with you were placed under arrest by the lower court in the city or town

24     where you were arrested.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 816

 1        Q.   You submitted a complaint -- or, rather, an appeal against this

 2     ruling.  Do you recall that?

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I will show that document a little

 4     later, but before that, could we admit this document into evidence under

 5     seal as well.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2D5 -- 2D6 under seal, Your Honours.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown

 8     2D03-0041, please.

 9        Q.   This is a decision whereby your appeal is rejected.  Do you

10     agree?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   After this, you were transferred to a military prison, you

13     testified before this Court.  In other words, you were transferred from a

14     civilian to a military prison.  And I would now like to show you a

15     document which explains why that is so.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And in the meantime, could we show

17     the witness 2D03-00345.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Counsel, before you move on, are you

19     exhibited this?

20             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2D7 under seal, Your Honours.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   This is a decision where the lower court in the town where you

25     were arrested proclaimed itself -- proclaimed that it did not have

Page 817

 1     jurisdiction over this matter, and it forwarded this to the Banja Luka

 2     court.  Is this -- does this actually correspond to your transfer from

 3     the civilian to the military prison, if you can recall?

 4        A.   Well, I cannot really claim with certainty that this happened at

 5     about the same time on that particular date, but I believe that this was

 6     at the time when we were in prison.  We spent some month or month and a

 7     half in prison.  And then in June we were in a different prison.  So this

 8     could be a document relating to that, but I'm not absolutely certain.

 9        Q.   Following this --

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we admit this document into

11     evidence, please.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2D8 under seal, Your Honours.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

14     2D03-0050.

15        Q.   This is a document from a higher court where, prior to this case

16     being forwarded to the military court, you are -- your arrest is being

17     extended.  Do you agree with me?  Is that what it says here?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please admit this document

20     into evidence under seal.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D9 under seal, Your Honours.

23             MR. PANTELIC:  I do apologise, Your Honour.  Maybe -- maybe I'm

24     wrong, but there is some -- mistake in exhibit numbers.  I think the

25     previous one with last two digits 0045 should be 2D7, and that one 2D8,

Page 818

 1     because now we are running to the other number.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.  The Registry will check

 4     and make the necessary adjustments.  Thank you.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could a document be shown,

 6     2D03-0059.  Could the witness be shown the second page of this document.

 7        Q.   It is rather illegible.  These are notes from your interview

 8     before the military prosecutor.  Could you just briefly look at the

 9     second page and tell us whether this reflects your interview, the content

10     of your interview with the military prosecutor.  As far as I could see,

11     it is more or less consistent with the previous statements.

12             Please take a look at the fifth paragraph from the top where your

13     description of the inspections of the shelters exactly reflects your

14     words here before this Trial Chamber.  Correct?

15        A.   Well, the copy is really difficult to read.  I'm unable to read

16     it.

17        Q.   Well, let me read it.  It says here:

18              "Regarding shelters, I state that I did not visit any kind of

19     shelters in the area of other villages."

20             MS. KORNER:  I'm reminding counsel that we're in open session.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's how it was.

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Private session]

Page 819

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I will give you a copy of this document, but I can tell you that

14     what is stated therein more or less it corresponds to what you've already

15     mentioned in the other statements.  But perhaps you can take a look at

16     this copy just to confirm.

17             More or less, this is what you said to the investigating judge;

18     correct?

19        A.   More or less, yes.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please admit this into

21     evidence.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D10 under seal, Your Honours.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You mentioned during your testimony on Friday that you were also

25     assigned a counsel ex officio.  Do you remember that you said this on

Page 820

 1     Friday?

 2        A.   Yes, that's what I said, but I didn't -- I wasn't given an

 3     opportunity to correct myself.  The counsel who was assigned to me, it's

 4     possible that he was assigned ex officio, but this was a man that I knew

 5     from before.  So whether he was an assigned counsel or whether I actually

 6     sought him, I'm not really sure anymore.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown

 8     2D03-0053, please.

 9        Q.   This is your appeal from the decision on remand in custody that

10     your counsel actually filed with the court, and he asked that the -- that

11     the proceedings against you be annulled and that you be released.  So

12     this is the content of this appeal, as far as I can see.

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please admit this into

15     evidence.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2D11 under seal, Your Honours.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You said that when you went on that exchange that you received a

19     decision issued by the military court that the prosecutor had withdrawn a

20     criminal complaint against you and that it was ordered that you be

21     released from remand.  Do you recall -- from remand and custody.  Do you

22     recall that you said that?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness

25     2D03-0056, please.

Page 821

 1        Q.   This is exactly what we were talking about.  It says here that

 2     you were no longer to be held in custody, you and the others, because the

 3     prosecutor was not going to pursue the criminal report.  Also, appeal was

 4     not permitted because the parties had waived their right to it.  You said

 5     last time when you testified that you had not waived that right.  Is that

 6     what you meant when you said -- did you mean to say that you did not

 7     waive your right to appeal?

 8        A.   Yes, I did comment on that in the sense that this was written as

 9     a kind of legal remedy, but I didn't have the opportunity to appeal at

10     all.  I received a blank A4 piece of paper then, which I also had to

11     sign.  I signed the blank piece of paper.  I don't know what was written

12     on that paper later.  I don't know.

13        Q.   But basically this decision is in your favour.  You didn't have a

14     lawyer.  All charges against you were rejected, so any lawyer would waive

15     the right to appeal for his client because this is something that would

16     be beneficial to his client.  Would you not agree with me?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honour, when is the time for the break?

19     Because I have 15 minutes more.  Should I go now or ...

20             JUDGE HALL:  We have seven minutes left.

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  Okay.  Let's proceed.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] In short, what I wanted to show with these

23     documents, you were suspected of taking part in armed rebellion, that you

24     had weapons.  You provided statements.  Some of the witnesses provided

25     statements that were not in your favour.  You went through the entire

Page 822

 1     procedure from the criminal report to being acquitted.  Do you agree with

 2     me?

 3        A.   Yes.  I went through the entire procedure, as you put it, but the

 4     mistreatment, the beatings, that is not a procedure that is provided for

 5     under any regulations.  And if I may say, at the time there was a sort of

 6     quasi-state in power, and the procedure resembled that.

 7        Q.   I'm not talking about what actually happened.  I am just saying

 8     that the procedures conducted against were you conducted in accordance

 9     with the procedure that was in force at the time without referring to the

10     beatings, the abuse, and what happened with you while you were in prison,

11     or without saying that that was legal.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Pursuant to the regulations in force at the time, the

14     jurisdiction over those detained in the district prison was under the

15     jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice or the court police or a special

16     district prison.  Would you agree with me?

17        A.   I cannot really comment on that.  I'm no longer sure about that

18     or whose jurisdiction that was.

19        Q.   When you were serving the jurisdiction over those who the court

20     placed under custody, was under the jurisdiction of the court or the

21     military prosecutor or the district prosecutor under whose' jurisdiction

22     the court would place them; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   But you were under the jurisdiction the military court, so this

25     dual jurisdiction would then be something that was under the military

Page 823

 1     organs.  It was under military jurisdiction, and that's who had

 2     jurisdiction over you up until the time you were exchanged.

 3             MS. KORNER:  As I understand it, only from -- if this is true,

 4     only from the 1st of October.  Up till then it was the civilian

 5     authorities that had jurisdiction.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  1992?

 7             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  According to the documents that counsel just

 8     produced, on the 1st of October the lower court, whoever that may have

 9     been, refused jurisdiction and said it would be transmitted to the

10     military court.  So certainly until the 1st of October.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That was the gist of my question.

12     I can see that perhaps I formulated it clumsily or perhaps the

13     interpretation was a little bit problematic, but in any case, that was

14     the gist of my question.

15        Q.   Would you agree with me?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   When you were questioned by the investigative judge or by members

18     of the State Security Service, were you asked about your affiliation to

19     or with HVO units?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   But you were asked about the existence of organised groups of the

22     Muslim Croatian ethnicity and their weaponry; is that correct?

23        A.   There were questions to that effect, but from what I knew there

24     was no organised form of resistance.  I said what I knew, that there

25     weren't such groups.  And it's true that there weren't such groups.

Page 824

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  I think it's a convenient time for the break,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  We resume in 20 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Witness, sir, before I continue, I asked you about an

10     abbreviation, HVO.  We know what I meant.  But for the Trial Chamber, can

11     you please explain what that abbreviation means.  It means the Croatian

12     Defence Council, I will say, and it was a armed force of the Croatian

13     people in Bosnia and Herzegovina at a certain period in time.

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please --

16     Your Honours, I apologise.  I forgot to ask for the previous document to

17     be admitted.  It is this decision on suspending the proceedings against

18     the witness, and that is number -- just one moment.  2D00-056.

19             JUDGE HALL:  It's now admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  So will become Exhibit 2D12 under seal,

21     Your Honours.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

23     Exhibit 2D05-0016.

24        Q.   Sir, on the first page --

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that we don't have an

Page 825

 1     English translation for this document, but if you agree.

 2             MS. KORNER:  We do.  We supplied an English translation of the

 3     header.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that we're talking about a

 5     different document.  I'm talking about the second -- oh, we have it for

 6     this one as well.

 7             Your Honours, I have photocopies of the heading for the

 8     Trial Chamber.  The rest of the document are just names.

 9             This is a document of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, of

10     the Ministry of Defence.  It's a secret, military secret, classified as a

11     military secret, and it is the list of persons registered at the defence

12     office.

13             Could the witness please be shown the page of the document marked

14     ERN 071-4627.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat what he said.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 0710-4626.

17        Q.   Witness, could you please look at line marked third from the

18     bottom on this document.  I'm not going to state the number.  529.

19             This first column is your name there and the name of your father?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And next to that we see your personal ID number with your date

22     and year of birth in the first part; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And then in the next column we see the time of service in the

25     units, from the 18th of September, 1991, until the 11th of June, 1992.

Page 826

 1     Register number 3215/60; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you help us and explain -- first of all, did you have the

 4     opportunity to see this document before?

 5        A.   Not before the proofing, no.

 6        Q.   It states here on this document - I'm not saying that that is a

 7     fact - that you were a member of the HVO from this date, the

 8     11th of September, 1999, up until the time you were arrested, if I

 9     understand this document correctly.

10             MS. KORNER:  The translation comes up as the

11     11th of September, 1999, which can't be right.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 1991.

13        Q.   Do you have an explanation of how your name happens to be on this

14     list and that you were engaged in the HVO forces for this period of time?

15        A.   This period that is referred to here in 1991 until June 1992, I

16     don't know, because I could not have been a member of those units because

17     I was still working in the police until the -- until late March 1992.

18     And the second date that is mentioned here, I assume that -- and in

19     general about this list, it probably included all persons who in one way

20     or another were victims of these unfortunate events, and it was evidently

21     a political decision at some higher level that really is not accessible

22     to me.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

24     Exhibit 2D05-0013.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Before you move on, is there any application that

Page 827

 1     you have to make in respect of this document that was last shown to the

 2     witness?

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I show the

 4     witness the second document, I will show their connection, and then I

 5     will seek for admittance of both.  Because what he was talking about now

 6     was actually what I'm going to show in the second document.  So I just

 7     want to make sure there is no confusion.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Witness, under 21 here we can see your name.  And again we see

11     the personal identification number.  And I assume that this is you, in

12     fact?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   We can see here where it says:

15             "In captivity as of 11th June, 1992."

16             And there's also -- this, in fact, is a list of disabled veterans

17     of the HVO?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You mentioned earlier that this was probably compiled for the

20     benefit of those people who were victims, and I suppose you were

21     referring to this document, because this document really relates to

22     individuals who are to be reimbursed for their disability and the other

23     document was just a list, but I assume that these two documents, in fact,

24     go hand in hand, and that they are proof for some claims that you may

25     have; correct?

Page 828

 1        A.   Both of these documents are -- they're inseparable, in fact.

 2     They go together, but obviously up until the HVO was established as

 3     mentioned, and I don't know exactly when and under whose instructions,

 4     but when this conflict broke out, I'm pretty certain that this did not

 5     exist.  And as far as I know, they did not have this information at their

 6     disposal.

 7             But whether this -- these lists were compiled while I was in

 8     custody, I don't know.  And I believe that they were compiled really in

 9     order to enable the individuals who were victims of this conflict to

10     regulate their status.

11        Q.   Well, that was my conclusion, too, and that is why I linked up

12     these two documents.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please admit both of these

14     documents, under seal, of course.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Tendered, admitted, and marked with the next number

16     in the series.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Both documents will become Exhibit 2D13 and 2D14.

18     Both will be under seal, Your Honours.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

20     Thank you, sir.

21             Your Honours, my cross-examination is complete.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

23             Re-examination?

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, there will be.  One thing I don't

25     think we've been told so far, does re-examination count as far as the

Page 829

 1     hours allocated?  I see Judge Harhoff nodding.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Was I?

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We'll get back to you.  My immediate response is,

 5     Yes, of course it is included.  But I'm not sure, and we're having the

 6     Legal Officer check for us.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Can I assure the Legal Officer and save some time.

 8     You never mentioned re-examination, but I'm -- I'll continue, and we'll

 9     see how -- how we go.

10                           Re-examination by Ms. Korner:

11        Q.   Sir, you were asked on Friday, I believe, about something to do

12     about Crisis Staffs, and you explained how you'd seen a document in a

13     previous trial in relation to that.  Do you remember?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Before you saw that document in the previous trials, were you

16     aware of Crisis Staffs and how they operated?

17        A.   I learned of their existence, the existence of the Crisis Staff,

18     from the operative, the inspector who was interviewing me when I was

19     arrested.  And as for the role and function of that Crisis Staff, at the

20     time I didn't know anything about it; but after, I learned something

21     about it after I was released.

22        Q.   Next, you were asked this afternoon about your understanding of

23     how the police and the military interacted in times of war.  Do you

24     remember those questions?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 830

 1        Q.   And you had part of the Law on All People's Defence read to you

 2     this afternoon.  Have you ever read the Law on All People's Defence?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   So this afternoon was the first time that you had heard that

 5     particular article before; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You also explain that your understanding of the role of the

 8     police was that in all matters, including civilian law enforcement, they

 9     were subject to military authority if there was a time of war.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So in other words, your understanding is that it would be the

12     local military officer, the senior military officer, who would be in

13     charge of the police in all matters in a time of war.  Is that what

14     you're saying?  Not just if the police were in combat units.

15        A.   Yes, but the police had their own commander who was subordinate

16     to the military commander, who could then issue any type of assignment to

17     him and he would have to obey.

18        Q.   So I just want to -- so we all get what your understanding is,

19     it's your understanding that, for example, Stojan Zupljanin would have

20     been subordinate to General Momir Talic in respect of all matters to do

21     with the police and not subordinate to Mico Stanisic.  Is that what

22     you're saying your understanding is?

23        A.   I think so, but I assume that no order, even if it came from a

24     military -- from the military, could be issued without the minister of

25     the interior or without going through the minister of the interior.

Page 831

 1        Q.   You say, "I assume."  Is all of what you've been saying an

 2     assumption?

 3        A.   These -- this is the knowledge that I have about the chain of

 4     command in the -- in war time or imminent threat of war, and that is how

 5     it worked while I was arrested.  But from that moment onward, I really

 6     don't know about that.

 7        Q.   Okay.  During your service as a police officer in the --

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that when the witness

 9     said that this order could not go unnoticed by the minister of the

10     interior or without his consent, but it would have to be obeyed in any

11     case.  Am I correct in saying that, Witness?  [In English] Okay.

12             MS. KORNER:  Just a moment.  I'm now -- that's the trouble.  I'm

13     now confused as to whether the intervention is because the translation of

14     the witness's answer was wrong or whether Mr. Cvijetic is trying to ask

15     another question.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The translation was incomplete of

17     the witness's words.  This portion was missing.  But the portion saying

18     that in any case, that order would have to be implemented, so that

19     portion was not interpreted.  And that was really the gist of my

20     intervention.

21             MS. KORNER:  All right.  I think, just to be clear, we'd better

22     go back over this.

23        Q.   Sir, I asked you whether Stojan Zupljanin would have been

24     subordinate to General Talic in respect of all matters to do with the

25     police and not subordinate to Mico Stanisic, and I asked you what your

Page 832

 1     understanding was.  Can you tell us again what your reply would be?  I

 2     think that's the best way of sorting this out.

 3        A.   I think that an army general would not address directly, as far

 4     as I understand it, anyone from the chain of command.  And the way I

 5     understood the chain of command in the former state, he would not really

 6     address in any way the commander of the CSB but, rather, would go through

 7     the minister if an assignment had to be carried out.

 8        Q.   And I was just about to ask you whether during your period of

 9     service in the police in the Socialist Federal Republic of Bosnia you had

10     operated in a time of war ever or imminent threat of war?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Finally, you've just been asked a number of questions about the

13     proceedings that were taken against you in court.  First of all, can we

14     just look at the context again of those statements that you made, and I

15     think --

16             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, I was trying to think whether we should

17     go into private session, and I think we should, if you don't mind, for

18     this.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And while we go into private session, we have

20     checked through our Legal Officer what the position is for time for

21     re-examination, and the answer is that it is not part of the time set

22     aside for your examination-in-chief.  The redirect forms part of the

23     remaining 20 per cent that are added for questions from the Judges,

24     procedural matters, and re-examination.

25             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

Page 833

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 834











11 Pages 834-835 redacted. Private session.















Page 836

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  We return to private session for questions by the

10     Chamber.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 837











11 Pages 837-838 redacted. Private session.















Page 839

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 9             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, during the break I got the

10     instruction of my client, Mr. Zupljanin, to address this witness.

11             [Interpretation] I'm now going to speak in the language you

12     understand.

13             Mr. Zupljanin would like to express his regret for everything

14     that you had experienced during the period you described in front of this

15     Trial Chamber.  He found out about it by reading statements and listening

16     to what you have said.  And in view of the fact that you spent (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21             MS. KORNER:  We'd better have that very last bit redacted from

22     the public transcript.  That is to say, from line -- from page 45,

23     lines 24 and 25.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

25             So you're now released, and we wish you a safe journey back home.

Page 840

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             MS. KORNER:  I don't know whether the shutters are going to go up

 4     or down, but, Your Honours, can I mention a couple of matters before

 5     Mr. Di Fazio calls the next witness.

 6             For the purposes of the transcript, Mr. Di Fazio has come into

 7     court.

 8             Really, procedural matters.  The first is this:  We're actually

 9     moving from Kotor Varos into Sanski Most, and you may have gathered --

10             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Should we be in open session?

11             MS. KORNER:  We are in open session.

12             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Oh, we are.

13             MS. KORNER:  It's just that the shutters are down.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are --

15     you just indicated who would be leading the next witness, and I seem to

16     recall that I neglected this morning, notwithstanding what I indicated

17     last week I would do after each resumption, to take the appearances

18     afresh.  So perhaps I'd better do that now.

19             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I think it's pretty clear, but, Your Honour,

20     the appearances for the Prosecution for the first witness today were

21     myself, Joanna Korner, assisted by the case manager Jasmina Bosnjakovic,

22     and Mr. Di Fazio has just arrived in court.  So that's the Prosecution

23     for today.

24             JUDGE HALL:  And for the Defence?

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am co-counsel in

Page 841

 1     Mr. Mico Stanisic's Defence, and I conducted the cross-examination today.

 2     I am accompanied by Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, and our legal assistant right

 3     now Ms. Tatjana Savic.

 4             MR. PANTELIC:  For Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic,

 5     Dragan Krgovic, Brent Hicks, and Eric Tully.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So now we're back on course.

 7             Yes, Ms. Korner.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Can I just explain.  The evidence on Kotor Varos is

 9     not actually complete, and I'm afraid we're not calling the evidence in

10     any particularly logical fashion because of the problems with witnesses

11     who we are banned from calling until one month afterwards.  That's a

12     problem which I'm afraid has hit us again.

13             In respect of the witness who was due to come on Friday -- sorry.

14     Yes, probably Friday.  A review of the searches that were done on him

15     revealed that there had been a nine-page statement made to the Bosnians

16     which has just turned up and which is not translated into English.  That

17     puts him out of court, as it were, in light of Your Honours' ruling.

18             The way we see the week proceeding is as follows:  There is the

19     witness that Mr. Di Fazio will call now who is 92 ter and who

20     Mr. Di Fazio tells me will take about 20 minutes in chief, as per the

21     instructions.  The estimate for cross-examination from each team has

22     been, I think, 30 -- sorry, no.  What number's that?  Forty-five minutes

23     from the Zupljanin team, and 30 minutes from the Stanisic team.

24             There is another witness tomorrow.  The length of

25     cross-examination is a bit longer for the two of them, and I think

Page 842

 1     examination-in-chief, Ms. Pidwell's going to ask if she's can have a

 2     little bit long with this particular witness.

 3             The witness after that is going to be a lengthy witness.

 4     Your Honour will recall Witness 181 this is, that a witness summons was

 5     issued for him.  There was a problem with his visa, so he's not getting

 6     here till tonight.  He's then going to review his interviews and the

 7     documents.  And the Defence have told us today that they would like to

 8     interview him as well, which, of course, is their right.  But that means

 9     that we can't start him until, effectively, Wednesday.  Which in any

10     event, I think, would be the case because of the delay in him getting his

11     visa, even if the Defence didn't want to talk to him.  He's likely to --

12     he will certainly take all of Wednesday, for the most part in chief; and

13     judging by the estimates for cross-examinations, Thursday.

14             But we don't have the witness that we wanted to, or we've just

15     stopped the witness coming because of the statement, and also it

16     transpires that although he's -- his English statement was disclosed some

17     time ago, way back in June, for some unknown reason it's fallen through

18     the cracks again.  We didn't translate it into the language of the

19     accused.

20             We therefore inform -- we informed the Defence last week that if

21     we were starting to run out of witnesses, which we might because the

22     videolink is set for Tuesday on the basis of this particular witness, we

23     were proposing to call Dorothea Hanson to deal with Crisis Staffs.

24             Now, the Defence were told this last week, but I think it's

25     caused some consternation that we're proposing to put this witness in.

Page 843

 1     But that's the only way that we can, at the moment, fill the required

 2     time.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So are you asking that Ms. Hanson be called to

 4     testify on Friday?

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes, that's what we're hoping to do, and I can see

 6     Mr. Pantelic is on his feet.

 7             MR. PANTELIC:  I would like to underline that we are not in a

 8     state of consternation, please.

 9             MS. KORNER:  I am so sorry.  I shouldn't have used that

10     expression.  But that's the situation, Your Honours.  It's either

11     effectively Ms. Hanson or nothing.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And for how long will the examination-in-chief of

13     Ms. Hanson last?

14             MS. KORNER:  Well, we gave the lawyer a shock, too, who was going

15     to call her, when we said we would do it, so we're checking.  I would

16     have thought the standard for an expert, I think you allowed us an hour.

17     Yes.  I think it's unlikely to be longer.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And so -- and what is the position of the Defence

19     teams?

20             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Well, it's not so much consternation as

21     objection to calling Dorothea Hanson Friday.  We are not in a position to

22     be ready for an expert on such short notice.  Things have changed.  We

23     were advised on the 2nd that Hanson and someone else may be interspersed,

24     but clearly the assumption there, I think, is that if we ran out of

25     witnesses during the course of October, then Hanson and the other person

Page 844

 1     would come in.  But we're not prepared today, learning today, to be able

 2     to cross-examine an expert who has a very large and important report and

 3     whose subject matter is very important to the Defence.

 4             So your order to grant us relief that precludes the Friday's

 5     witness, because of late disclosure after the 31st of July, we say is

 6     there to protect us.

 7             Now, we shouldn't be put in a position where we're granted relief

 8     on the one hand because of late disclosure after 31st July, and then be

 9     told on Monday that the - did I mention the name? - the Crisis Staff

10     expert is coming.  We're not prepared for that.  We cannot be prepared to

11     adequately cross-examine this witness.  We would need more lead time.

12             MR. PANTELIC:  And just for the record, the Zupljanin Defence is

13     standing along these lines of Mr. O'Sullivan.  Thank you.

14             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, you see, this is -- I'm sorry.  I

15     didn't realise you were discussing matters.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, we may have this in our papers, but

18     could you remind us as to who you have scheduled for Monday?  Your

19     videolink witness is Tuesday.

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Monday would be --

22             MS. KORNER:  Monday would have been the witness -- I've forgotten

23     his number.  In fact, I'm reminded, we've got one other witness before --

24     or, sorry, after Witness 181 and that's ST-13.  I've forgotten about

25     ST-13; a small witness.  We were going to have the witness that, as a

Page 845

 1     result of checking the searches, we can't call because there is an extra

 2     statement.  I mean -- and in fact, we've stopped the witness now.

 3             But the realistic thing is, Your Honours, is the Defence could

 4     quite easily read this statement themselves and see that it doesn't --

 5     we've had it read -- it doesn't really add anything at all.  But,

 6     Your Honours, having said, unless the Defence agree we can't call them --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  The -- the reason for my question about Monday was

 8     that when next -- assuming that the Chamber's inclined to agree with the

 9     difficulties that -- with the position taken by the Defence in terms of

10     your proposed witness for Friday, when next would she be available?

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Oh, that witness.  No, no.  She's here.

12     There's no problem.  She can give evidence any time.

13             JUDGE HALL:  I see.

14             MS. KORNER:  She's a proper fill in, because we can get hold of

15     her at any time.

16             JUDGE HALL:  So the logical question that flows from that to the

17     Defence is:  If not Friday, when?  This witness is available at any time

18     according to Ms. Korner.  As I said, assuming we agree with you that

19     Friday is a surprise to you and you shouldn't be expected to meet it,

20     when?

21             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Well, we would just like to have more notice

22     than four days.  I mean -- and we acknowledge that the Prosecution has

23     been courteous enough to give us names for the whole month of October,

24     and it's a question of balance.  I can't say it's more than --

25             JUDGE HALL:  We understand that, Mr. O'Sullivan.  I was simply

Page 846

 1     trying to -- to avoid gaps.  If this is a witness who is basically

 2     available any time, to avoid a recurrence of your being caught by

 3     surprise at four days' notice, now that you are on notice, when -- would

 4     you wish to volunteer to the Prosecution when would be appropriate to

 5     call her?  But that's an aside.

 6             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Yes.  It was -- the circumstances of the late

 7     discovery by the Prosecution that has affected Friday's witness, so ...

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I mean, we could -- one of the ways we

 9     could deal with this is if my learned friends consider that Monday's

10     sufficient notice, she could be dealt with on Monday in chief.  We could

11     do the videolink witness on Tuesday, and we anticipate Wednesday, and

12     then return for her to cross-examination.  The one thing we don't want is

13     for her to -- her cross-examination to be delayed for a long time,

14     because she's working on other trials and she needs to be able to talk to

15     other members of the office.

16             Alternatively, we could use one of the days, I suppose, to sort

17     out the rest of the outstanding motions.  But I mean, that's -- I'm

18     sorry.  And I appreciate that we take responsibility for the fact that

19     this particular statement slipped through the net, and I'm afraid it's

20     teething problems at the beginning of a case, but that's where we are.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, do I understand it well that if

22     ST-177 falls out, you don't have a witness on Monday either?

23             MS. KORNER:  No, because --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

25             MS. KORNER:  Because 177 would have taken up Monday.

Page 847

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The Chamber has considered the matter, what to

 4     do, and we are also concerned about the loss of time, because every time

 5     we lose out a witness the ending of the Prosecution's case is being

 6     pushed further out in the end, so our proposal is that you call

 7     Ms. Hanson for examination-in-chief on Friday, and you spend that one

 8     hour with her and then we adjourn.  And we would then ask the Defence

 9     teams to be ready to begin their cross-examination on Monday and complete

10     on Wednesday.

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I think --

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That should give -- sorry.  That should give the

13     Defence counsels a reasonable time to prepare.  And it also gives them

14     the advantage of having heard the examination-in-chief and then have

15     extra time, actually, between the examination-in-chief and the

16     cross-examination.

17             So in light of this advantage that the Defence teams get of not

18     having to proceed immediately to the cross-examination, the Chamber

19     thinks that this is a reasonable solution to -- to at least save some

20     time.

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, can I just mention it's likely that the

22     videolink witness will go into Wednesday.  I anticipate that certainly

23     one of my learned friends has got quite a lot to ask.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Di Fazio, let's have your witness.

Page 848

 1             MS. KORNER:  Can Your Honour just forgive me while I leave court

 2     for five minutes.  Thank you very much.

 3             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Can the next witness

 4     Mirzet Karabeg be brought into court ready for his testimony, please.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Di Fazio, no protective measures apply to

 6     this witness; is that correct?

 7             MR. DI FAZIO:  No, Your Honours.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9                           WITNESS:  MIRZET KARABEG

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir, for coming to assist the Tribunal.

15     Your name, sir, is?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mirzet Karabeg.

17             JUDGE HALL:  And your profession?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lawyer.

19             JUDGE HALL:  This is -- your place of birth and date of birth,

20     sir.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born in Sanski Most,

22     Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the 20th of December, 1943, in Sanski Most.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  The procedure that will be followed this

24     afternoon is the Prosecution, whose witness you are, will ask you

25     questions for about 20 minutes, because this is an expedited hearing,

Page 849

 1     after which the lawyers for the two accused would each have an

 2     opportunity to ask you questions for a slightly longer period of time.

 3     After that cross-examination, there may be re-examination by the counsel

 4     who has called you, and the Bench may have some questions, and when that

 5     is over, you would be released.  Do you understand?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Di Fazio.

 9             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thanks, Your Honours.

10                           Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

11        Q.   Witness, in addition to the personal details you provided, you

12     are also a Bosniak by ethnicity; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You've testified here in a number of cases, and in

15     particular I want to direct your attention to your testimony in the case

16     against Brdjanin and General Talic, and you testified in that case, I

17     believe, on the 27th of May, 28th, 29th, and 30th of May, 2002; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And when you provided that testimony back then in 2002, did you

21     endeavour to answer your questions as honestly and accurately as you

22     could?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And have you had an opportunity of reviewing your testimony by

25     the use of audio files or audio CDs?

Page 850

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And if you were to be examined again on the same topics, asked

 3     the same questions again about the same topics, would you provide the

 4     same evidence to this Trial Chamber?

 5        A.   Yes, I would.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, in accordance with the

 8     decision that you rendered on the 2nd of October, 2009, I'd like to seek

 9     the admission of the transcripts of his evidence together with a number

10     of 65 ter exhibits.  Do Your Honours want me to enumerate those

11     65 ter numbers now into the record?

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE HALL:  The principle exhibit would be tendered and marked

14     as usual, and you may leave it to the Registry system to indicate the

15     sub-numbers as necessary.  Of course, if in the course -- if it is

16     necessary for you to identify a particular item from the subgroup, we

17     devise a means for you to do that.  But for the time being, it's

18     sufficient for the transcript and its accompanying documents to be

19     tendered and marked with the next number in the series.

20             Mr. Pantelic, you have a difficulty?

21             MR. PANTELIC:  No, Your Honour, I don't have difficulty, but I

22     would just like to excuse myself for interrupting this line of

23     questioning that my learned friend Mr. Di Fazio is just commencing.  I

24     would like to know, in terms of our future preparation, if that's true

25     that this witness, Mr. Karabeg, testified in other cases than Mr. -- than

Page 851

 1     Brdjanin, because if that's the case, we don't have any record or any

 2     documents or transcript from.  So if my learned friend can clarify that.

 3     And if that's the case, I would instruct my associate to look for -- for

 4     these additional documents.

 5             MR. DI FAZIO:  At least in the Krajisnik case.  Just that.  And

 6     that was in May 2004.  Thank you.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, I'm given to understand that your

 9     concern may have been a reflection of the way that counsel's question

10     came out.

11             But, Mr. Di Fazio, the Prosecution is only -- is only relying on

12     the transcript in Brdjanin.  Isn't that the position?

13             MR. DI FAZIO:  Absolutely.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Pardon me?

15             MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes.  I just mentioned that --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for counsel.

17             MR. DI FAZIO:  My microphone is not working.  Can you hear me

18     now?  Can you hear me now?

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

20             MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes.  The Prosecution's only using --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone is inactive again.

22             MR. DI FAZIO:  It appears to be switched on and red.  It's

23     also -- the red button is here, Your Honours.  But I can hear myself,

24     that my voice is not coming through.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, your concerns are now satisfied.

Page 852

 1             MR. PANTELIC:  Absolutely.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 3             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I wish to thank my

 4     learned friend Mr. Di Fazio also.  Thank you.

 5             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your Honour, if we're having technical

 6     difficulties, perhaps I can say -- ask a question before we proceed, and

 7     that has to do with the exhibits that are going to be tendered in

 8     conjunction with this statement, and it's unclear to us how that's going

 9     to be identified in the record.  Which exhibits from the Brdjanin

10     transcript are actually on the 65 ter list and the cross-reference to the

11     exhibit number in the Brdjanin and the exhibit number in our case.

12     Because we're going to be reading the Brdjanin transcript that has an

13     exhibit number, P1; that same document may be P50 in our case.  And

14     without a cross-reference you can't read and understand the Brdjanin

15     transcript.

16             JUDGE HALL:  I thought we dealt with this last week.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. O'Sullivan, the Registry will assume the

19     responsibility of sub-numbering the exhibits.  Whatever number they would

20     have had before in the previous trial would fall away, and that would be

21     provided to the parties as soon as -- as soon as that exercise is

22     complete.  Does that answer your concern?

23             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Are the microphone problems solved, Mr. Di Fazio?

25             MR. DI FAZIO:  I think they are.  I think you can hear me clearly

Page 853

 1     now.

 2             Very well.  I want to show the witness some photographs if

 3     Your Honours please, that are already on our 65 ter list.  Could the

 4     witness please be shown 65 ter 2145.

 5        Q.   Witness -- Mr. Karabeg, do you recognise that place?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What is it?

 8        A.   These are stalls at Manjaca where we were kept.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. DI FAZIO:  I seek to tender that photograph into evidence.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked accordingly.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P55, Your Honours.

13             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you.  The next photo I'd like the witness to

14     be shown is 65 ter 2146.

15        Q.   What about those buildings?  Do you recognise those buildings?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Again, what are they?

18        A.   These are also the stalls -- or, rather, stables at Manjaca.  And

19     most probably these are the three stables in the second camp where

20     they -- we were, and I was in this one in the centre, in the stable in

21     the centre.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Were those three buildings used to accommodate

23     prisoners?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 854

 1             MR. DI FAZIO:  I tender that photograph.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Tendered, admitted, and marked with the next number

 3     in the series.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P56, Your Honours.

 5             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you for that.  And may the witness be shown

 6     64 -- 65 ter 2144.  Could we have it just a bit bigger if possible.

 7     Thank you.

 8        Q.   Witness, I'm not so much interested in the people who you can see

 9     in the photograph unless, of course, you happen to recognise any one

10     individual.  But in particular, do you recognise the buildings and

11     structures that you can see in the background?

12        A.   I do recognise them.  On the right-hand side is another stable;

13     it's also a stable.  And the roof that we see there, that was the kitchen

14     where the food was prepared and where we got our food.

15        Q.   So the kitchen was out in the open, was it, just covered by that

16     roof?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. DI FAZIO:  I tender that photograph.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Tendered, admitted, and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P57, Your Honours.

22             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you.  Can the witness be shown 65 ter 2143.

23        Q.   Again, forgetting the individuals you see in that particular

24     photograph and looking at the interior of that building, do you recognise

25     it?

Page 855

 1        A.   This is the interior of a stable.

 2        Q.   At Manjaca?

 3        A.   At Manjaca, yes.  The same stables that we've been shown before.

 4     And I apologise for one thing.  We camp inmates do not refer to this as

 5     premises.  We call them stables because they were stables, and they were

 6     used for keeping cattle in before we were arrested and brought there.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In your time at Manjaca did you ever see prisoners

 8     assembled in that fashion, that is, gathered along in a corridor, so to

 9     speak, leading alongside the fences, the iron fences, with their shoes

10     neatly arranged in front of them and sitting down in that fashion?  Did

11     you ever see that sort of collection of prisoners in that -- in that

12     manner of gathering?

13        A.   Yes.  Here in this stable there were three rows.  Here we have

14     the central row and then to the left and the right we all sat there

15     arranged like this.  We were in two rows.

16        Q.   How and when did this arrangement occur?

17        A.   I really can't tell you because I arrived at Manjaca on the

18     28th of May -- on the 28th of August, 1992, and this camp had become

19     operational or had been opened in early June 1992.

20        Q.   In the time that you were at Manjaca, did you ever see the

21     prisoners collected in that fashion as depicted in that photograph?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes.  This was done as ordered by those who actually were

23     in charge of Manjaca.  These were policemen and soldiers.  We referred to

24     them as the motley group because they had on camouflage uniforms,

25     multicoloured.

Page 856

 1        Q.   Okay.  And just tell the Trial Chamber, if you can, was this the

 2     common way for prisoners to be assembled inside these stables, or was

 3     this a fairly unusual method of assembling them?

 4        A.   This was the common way.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that into

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P58, Your Honours.

10             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you.  Can the witness be shown 65 ter 2255.

11     Thank you.

12        Q.   Do you recognise that structure there with the red-painted

13     apparently steel doors.

14        A.   I recognise it.

15        Q.   Thanks.  And tell the Trial Chamber what that place is.

16        A.   This is a camp, a concrete camp, in Sanski Most where I was

17     detained also, in the third garage.

18        Q.   So you use the word "garage."  What sort of garage was it?  Was

19     it used to keep motor vehicles in there prior to the war, or was it used

20     for some other purpose?

21        A.   Yes, it was used for motor vehicles before the war.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. DI FAZIO:  And I seek to tender that photograph into

24     evidence.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

Page 857

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P59, Your Honours.

 2             MR. DI FAZIO:  Okay.  And I would now like to show the witness

 3     65 ter 2422.  And in particular, I would like to show the witness page 41

 4     of the B/C/S version, and the translation appears at page 38 of the

 5     English.

 6             I don't think that we've got the right English.  Certainly the

 7     B/C/S is correct, and it's the correct page as well.  Would Your Honours

 8     just give me a moment, please.

 9             No.  No.  The -- the B/C/S version, I understand, had an entry

10     that I was interested in at 0037-9462.  That was the ERN.

11             MR. HICKS:  Your Honours, just a quick intervention before the --

12     just for the record, this document was not noted in the list to be used

13     in direct examination that was provided to the Defence.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we're about to take a break now, and perhaps

15     the -- Mr. Di Fazio can get that sorted out in the interim.

16             MR. DI FAZIO:  I'll do that, Your Honours.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Di Fazio.

22             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Witness -- Mr. Karabeg, I should say, you were asked questions

24     about the document, part of which is in front of you on the screen, in

25     the Brdjanin case, and you were asked about a number of entries in

Page 858

 1     that -- in this document.  I just want to direct your attention to the

 2     entry that you see in front of you, and I want you to look in particular

 3     at item 4.  Can you -- can you see that clearly or not?  We can possibly

 4     enlarge it a little bit further for you.

 5             Perhaps I can hasten things by just reading it and then ask you a

 6     question.  Item 4 says:

 7             "Take into custody ..."

 8             And then a number of names follow.

 9             In your testimony you said --

10             MR. DI FAZIO:  And for the parties they'll find this at T -- or

11     transcript 6139, 6139.

12        Q.   In your testimony you said you were arrested on the 25th of May.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   This item 4 says:

15             "Take into custody..."

16             Various people.  And I'll read out their names.  And I want I

17     want to know from you is if in the -- at the time of your arrest on the

18     25th of May, you said you were taken to the police station in

19     Sanski Most, whether you saw any of these people either on the day or in

20     the days following.

21             Adil Draganovic.  Did you see that man after your arrest or on

22     the day of your arrest?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   What about Redzo Kurbegovic?  Did you see him?

25        A.   I did.  I did.

Page 859

 1        Q.   Stipo Catic?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Ismet Jakupovic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Nihad Kljucanin?

 6        A.   I didn't see Nihad that day.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And what about in the days -- say, the two or three days

 8     after your arrest?  Did you see him then?  And if you didn't, just say

 9     so.

10        A.   I did.  I did.  Not on that day, the 25th of May, just that day.

11        Q.   Okay.  Well, when did -- approximately when did you see him in

12     relation to the 25th?  Was it months later or in the following days?

13        A.   I think it was either Wednesday or Thursday.  So that could have

14     been the 28th or the -- actually, the 27th or the 28th of May when he was

15     brought to the cell where I was.

16        Q.   Thank you for that.  Nedzad Muhic.  Did you see him on the day of

17     your arrest or in the days immediately following?

18        A.   On the day of the arrest.

19        Q.   And Hasib Kamber?

20        A.   I saw Hasib Kamber perhaps about a month after that, some 20 days

21     to a month later, since the time that I was arrested on the

22     25th of May, 1992.

23        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.

24             Ahmet Paunovic?

25        A.   I saw Ahmet Paunovic only at Manjaca.

Page 860

 1        Q.   Thanks.  And Hase Osmancevic?

 2        A.   I saw Hase Osmancevic precisely on the 25th of May.  He was

 3     arrested on the same day that I was.

 4        Q.   And finally, Fikret Saletovic?

 5        A.   The same, on the 25th of May.  I'm not saying 1992 here, because

 6     it all took place in 1992.  So that is implied.

 7        Q.   Thanks.

 8             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, that forms part of the

 9     92 ter package of this witness.  I don't think I need to seek to tender

10     it into evidence or have it marked for identification at this juncture.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Di Fazio, I think it would make sense to

13     first have the transcripts tendered into evidence and admitted into

14     evidence.  And then once we have an exhibit number for each of the

15     transcripts, then we can assign sub-numbers to each of the documents that

16     go with them.  So if you would please tender the transcripts as they

17     come.

18             MR. DI FAZIO:  Transcripts or documentary exhibits?

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Di Fazio, the system is that we -- we admit

20     the transcripts as the main exhibit, and if you have two or three

21     transcripts, then we will give them two or three exhibit numbers, one

22     number each.  Now, if, in the tail of each of these transcripts a number

23     of documents follow, then they will be given sub-exhibit numbers.

24             So if this document relates to one of the transcripts, then we

25     first give an exhibit number to this transcript, it's going to be P60;

Page 861

 1     and then all the documents that follow in the tail or within the ambit of

 2     this transcript will then be given sub-numbers such as 60.1, 6.2, 60.3,

 3     and so on.

 4             MR. DI FAZIO:  That's clear to me.  And so therefore that process

 5     should be an automatic one in respect of this particular document.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes except that we haven't given actually exhibit

 7     numbers to the main transcripts.  So we need those first, and then we

 8     will --

 9             MR. DI FAZIO:  Very well.  Then I would certainly seek to give

10     the transcripts principal exhibit numbers, if Your Honours please.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Then get on with it.

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  The transcript will become P60, Your Honours.

14             MR. DI FAZIO:  I don't have any further questions of this witness

15     if Your Honours please.  I'll seek to tender this particular document.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Cross-examination?

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I begin, Your Honours?

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

22        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Karabeg.  I am Slobodan Cvijetic, co-counsel

23     in the Mico Stanisic Defence team.

24        A.   Good afternoon.  Nice to meet you.

25        Q.   I have no intention of asking you about what you went through at

Page 862

 1     Betonirka and Manjaca.  In any event, we read that in your testimony, and

 2     that speaks for itself.  And may I just say that nobody would wish

 3     anything like that to be repeated to anyone again.

 4             What I'm interested in is what happened afterwards when you

 5     crossed into the territory of the Bosnian forces.  Can you tell us the

 6     date when that happened?

 7        A.   I think that this was on the 31st of October, 1992.

 8        Q.   If you can perhaps tell us in a couple of sentences how this

 9     happened, how you managed to get to the territory under the control of

10     the Bosnian forces?

11        A.   It was like this:  While we were in the camp, that day -- I'm not

12     able to be specific about the date.  Perhaps it was the 30th or the

13     31st of October.  After breakfast it was announced that an exchange would

14     be effected that day, and one of the inmates told me that I was on that

15     list.

16             Sometime -- actually, I remember that it was a nice day, so at

17     some point about -- well, 61 of us were called out from those two camps.

18     We were taken in front of the building of the camp administration.  We

19     were told that we would be exchanged, 61 of us.

20             We went to a bus.  There were four guards.  But we inmates, as we

21     were watching the buses passing by, because each bus had to pass by the

22     camp, we would be watching if the inmates were sitting normally and

23     looking through the windows or if their heads were bent forward.

24             There were four guards.  There was half a bus, and then

25     immediately they started beating us, and they said, Nobody should raise

Page 863

 1     their head.  You need to keep your heads down.

 2             This was half way along the route which went through Mrkonjic and

 3     Jajce and over Mount Vlasic, via Travnik, up to Turbe.  That is where we

 4     waited, actually at Mount Vlasic, because there was some complications in

 5     this exchange.

 6             Then there were these two men who were wearing precisely Chetniks

 7     uniforms, with beards, and they had ammunition cross-belts and weapons,

 8     large knives, and they asked the guard who had brought us in the bus to

 9     give them two of us so that they could slit our throats.  The guard said,

10     What's the matter?  Are you crazy?

11             They refused to do that, but this lasted for about two hours, you

12     know.  After that, our bus set off.  We were brought to Turbe, and we

13     were exchanged in Turbe.  I think the Serbs were coming out of one bus.

14     We were coming out of this bus.  They went to their territory.  We went

15     to our territory.

16             One thing we did notice, and that was that those Serbs who were

17     exchanged, they were all looking well.  They were shaved.  Their clothes

18     were ironed.  We noticed that.  Whereas we were all crumpled, dirty,

19     because of the conditions we had been living in.

20             The exchange was completed.  We stayed in Turbe, and then from

21     Turbe we were taken to Travnik and we were placed somewhere.  I don't

22     know where the people who had been exchanged were placed.

23        Q.   When we're talking about the Manjaca camp administration, do you

24     know who the administrator or the warden was?  Do you know his name?

25        A.   He was a colonel.  He was from Montenegro.  I didn't remember his

Page 864

 1     name.

 2        Q.   Was he a military officer, and did he have that rank?

 3        A.   Yes.  He was a military officer.

 4        Q.   All right.  Very well.  What we started to talk about, I'm

 5     interested in this:  Did you begin to participate in the political life

 6     in the territory under the control of Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslims at that

 7     point in time?

 8        A.   Yes.  I was involved in politics even before I was arrested.

 9        Q.   All right.  But -- so was this the case when you came back?

10        A.   Yes, I was.

11        Q.   Please, because this is cross-examination.  My time is limited.

12     So my -- my time is running out.  So can you just list these things.

13        A.   Well, let me tell you.  I immediately got involved in

14     establishing the civilian authorities of the War Presidency of the

15     Sanski Most municipality with a provisional seat in Zenica and then in

16     Travnik, because before the war I was the President of the

17     Executive Board of the Sanski Most municipality.

18        Q.   All right.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would I like

20     Witness -- the witness to be shown 1D00-4515, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Karabeg, on the left side you can see the version in B/C/S.

22     Do you recognise this document?

23        A.   Well, can you perhaps zoom in a little bit?  The letters are too

24     small.  I cannot see to read.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If the Chamber has nothing against

Page 865

 1     that, I have a copy which is -- which has bigger print.  Perhaps I can

 2     show that to the witness if the Trial Chamber permits.

 3        Q.   Can you please look at this document now.  It's the second column

 4     to the right under number II.  Is that your name?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   This is the decision appointing you as vice-president of the

 7     War Presidency.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   All right.  So you were the vice-president.

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   Well, from what I understood, this decision replaced an earlier

12     decision on the establishment of the War Presidency.  That's what it says

13     on the second page.  I'm going to show it later in the final remarks and

14     provisions - we're colleagues, so you know how that goes.  Anyway, can

15     you, please, tell us when was the first time that you become a member of

16     the War Presidency?

17        A.   Well, I became a member of the War Presidency for the first time

18     when it was formed.  This was in early 1993, because all these citizens

19     in the municipality of Sanski Most and the refugees had heard that I had

20     been exchanged, and they were waiting for me to become involved as an

21     official representative of the legitimate local authorities.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to the second page of

23     this document.

24        Q.   You have a couple of these transitional provisions where it says

25     that War Presidency practically replaced the legal and official organs

Page 866

 1     until they are able to convene.  Did I understand correctly the essence

 2     of the jurisdiction of the War Presidencies?

 3        A.   Yes, you did.

 4        Q.   And then the next provision says that War Presidencies are

 5     obliged to prepare the terrain for the legal organs of authority on the

 6     territory under the control of Bosnian Muslims.

 7        A.   Yes.  Just one moment.  What it said is that they are ready to

 8     take over authority once they came to Sanski Most.

 9        Q.   Can you please look at the end where it says that with this

10     decision the decision on the formation and elections of the

11     War Presidency ceases to be in effect.  The earlier decision.  So you

12     would agree with me that there was a War Presidency from earlier but that

13     you became a member when it says here?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   How do you interpret this provision that it substitutes the

16     previous War Presidency?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   You cannot interpret it?

19        A.   No, I cannot.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Karabeg, please observe a small pause between

21     question and answer, because it is impossible for the interpreters to

22     follow you.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

24        Q.   Can you tell us now?  Can you interpret that provision?  If you

25     can take a look and read it.  What it says there is --

Page 867

 1        A.   Which provision?

 2        Q.   I apologise.  You would have to give this back to me so that I

 3     can point it out.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we please get page 3 of the English version.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   It is Roman numerals XX.  The two X's there.  Can you read that

 7     paragraph, please?

 8        A.   It says:

 9             "When this decision comes into effect it supersedes the decisions

10     on the election of presidents and members of the Wartime Presidencies of

11     the municipal assemblies."

12             Well, you see, this was in 1993.  Some municipalities already had

13     Wartime Presidencies in place, and they had provisional seats in Zenica

14     and Travnik.  Some people would leave the Presidency and then they

15     needed -- new members needed to be elected.  And here it does not

16     specifically mention Sanski Most.  It mentions -- it actually provides

17     for War Presidencies in various municipalities.  And this was necessary

18     because a huge number of people had been expelled, and all these people

19     had to be re-elected, and then they had to get to know what it was to

20     do -- they were to do, then once the Presidencies were formed, this was

21     on the territory in place.

22        Q.   Sir, so you agree with me that there were in some towns there

23     already were War Presidencies but they only had different memberships, if

24     I'm correct?

25        A.   Well, let me explain it like this.  Had I, by any chance, arrived

Page 868

 1     there in July or August 1992, I'm certain that the Sanski Most

 2     municipality would have a Wartime Presidency then, and some

 3     municipalities already did.

 4        Q.   Well, that was the gist of my question.  Some municipalities did

 5     have War Presidencies in place.  That's all I was asking about.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

 8     questions for this witness.  Thank you.

 9             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes.  Just a second.  I will organise my stuff,

10     please.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, or good evening.  My name is

13     Igor Pantelic --

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

15     interrupting my colleague, but I failed to submit this document for

16     admittance into evidence.  I apologise.  If we could just get a number

17     assigned to them.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D10 under seal -- no, it's not under

19     seal, Your Honours.  I apologise.

20             MR. CVIJETIC:  Thank you.

21             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, while we are on the same topic, I

22     don't believe that we have exhibit number for Prosecution for OTP

23     document 2422.  This is a kind of diary or -- so maybe my colleague

24     Gramsci -- Mr. Di Fazio can clarify that or ...

25             MR. DI FAZIO:  We discussed this.  It's going to be part of

Page 869

 1     the -- of the 65 ter package as Your Honours made it very clear you will

 2     be giving the one exhibit number with sub-numbers, and that will be

 3     assigned in due course.

 4             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, I understand, because maybe it was a bit of

 5     confusion, because it was on the list of OTP, but, okay, we can move on.

 6     No problem.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Karabeg, I apologise for these few

 8     procedural matters.

 9             If I understood you correctly, you are an attorney; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you have your own office, and you're still employed; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Tell me, please, do you remember -- namely, you gave several

14     statements to the Prosecution, and I have a statement of yours dated

15     July 2nd, 2004.  I also have a copy for you.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Mr. Usher, please.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Here on the second page we can see that this is

18     not really a statement.  Rather, it is some clarification that you're

19     making here.  Could you please read it to yourself?

20        A.   Do you mean the portion where it says:

21             "On the 29th of May ..." and so on?

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   Well, all right.  I'll read it to myself.  That's why I was

24     asking.

25        Q.   So the way I understand your statement here is you're saying here

Page 870

 1     that you testified in the Krajisnik case in 2004; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Next you say that you were referring to certain notes in your

 4     diary in the course of that testimony.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And then you concluded that you were unable to locate those

 7     notes; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And this diary that was your personal journal, you had given it

10     to an investigator, Mr. Tollefsen; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And then you go on to say that you fled from Sanski Most on the

13     25th of May, 1992; is that correct?

14        A.   That's what it says there.

15        Q.   And did you sign this statement?

16        A.   Well, let me tell you this.  I have the original prepared by this

17     gentleman here, and I know what it says there, and I am sure that this

18     was added here, because I already had a suspicion that this gentleman

19     would abuse or misuse this document.

20             I did not flee Sanski Most on the 25th of May, 1992, and you can

21     see there were exact quotations about Sanski Most, and his conduct was

22     such that it gave rise to my suspicions that he might add something to

23     the notes.

24             It is true that I did write some things and I did provide him

25     with a brief notebook.  I don't know what -- what he said who he was.

Page 871

 1     I'm not sure.

 2             MR. PANTELIC:  Just a second, please, just to consult with my

 3     colleagues, please.

 4        Q.   All right, sir.  But certainly you stand by your statement here

 5     that you had fled from Sanski Most on the 25th of May, 1992.

 6        A.   No.  How could I have fled when I was actually arrested on the

 7     25th of May, 1992, at 1700 hours -- 1750 hours, and I was taken to the

 8     police station in Sanski Most?

 9        Q.   So what you signed, you did not sign true facts in this

10     statement; right?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   But you did sign it?

13        A.   Well, I did not sign the statement in this form.  I did sign it,

14     but not in this form, not this.

15        Q.   All right.  Let's move on to another topic.  You graduated from

16     law school in Sarajevo; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What year was this?

19        A.   1975.

20        Q.   At the time, you probably had to take an exam in a curriculum

21     called constitution law; correct?

22        A.   Your Honours, I really don't understand where he's headed with

23     this question.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Well, counsel's duty is to ask questions according

25     to the instructions of his clients, and unless the Court finds -- unless

Page 872

 1     the Chamber finds it irrelevant, then you're required to answer.  So at

 2     this point the Chamber's prepared to presume that he has a point.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I did.  I did have that

 4     curriculum.  I went and attended the course.

 5             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Your Honours, may I -- my dear colleague, I have to ask you a

 7     question because I read your -- the transcript from the Brdjanin case,

 8     and I know that on that occasion you had some legal discussions with

 9     Mr. Ackerman at the time, but you're here a fact witness, so please

10     answer my questions with a yes or no, because the system here is a bit

11     different to the system that is used in Europe.  So I am entitled to

12     leading questions during cross-examination.  So let's just move on.

13             Now, would you agree with me that during the Tito regime, the

14     so-called Tito regime, the -- in Bosnia and Herzegovina there was a

15     system in place which provided for so-called equality of all three

16     constituent ethnicities; correct?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer.

18     The interpreter is not sure if it's yes or no.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, unfortunately -- thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, yes, yes.  I've answered.

21             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Your answer is yes; correct?

23        A.   Yes.  And this is the third or fourth time that I'm repeating it.

24     Yes.

25        Q.   I heard you very well, colleague, but it was not in the

Page 873

 1     transcript, and it's important that it be there, and that is why I am

 2     repeating it.

 3             So the constitutional system in Bosnia and Herzegovina had a

 4     system which provided for the protection of the vital interests of each

 5     of the constitutional ethnicities or nations; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And this was the case also after the multi-party elections in

 8     1992; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Maybe you didn't have occasion recently to come across the

11     constitutional provisions, but if I tell you that there was a council for

12     the equality of nations based on the constitutional amendments, you would

13     agree with me, right, that it was in existence during the regime in

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina then; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Just a correction to the transcript.  I said the

17     constitutional regime, not regime in Bosnia.  Thank you.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] And based on the so-called Dayton Constitution,

19     which is now in force in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there is also a system

20     in place that is to provide the vital interests of each of the

21     constituent nations and ethnicities; correct?

22        A.   Yes, through the parliamentary system.

23        Q.   I would like your opinion on something.  You've probably heard of

24     Belgium and that there is a system in place there between the Valonians

25     and the Flemish, the so-called alarm-bell system.  Are you aware of this?

Page 874

 1     Have you heard of this system?

 2        A.   Yes, well the portion that was towards France and the other one

 3     that is here.  So the Valonians and the Flemish, yes.

 4        Q.   In the period prior to 1992, and this should include both the

 5     single-party and the multi-party period, would you agree with me that

 6     this system of national or ethnic quotas or the distribution of functions

 7     between the three different constituent ethnicities in Bosnia-Herzegovina

 8     was abided by?  Correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  But if you allow me a comment, beginning in November 1943,

10     of course, there were both Croats and Serbs and Muslims in

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So Bosnia and Herzegovina was neither Bosnian

12     nor Croat nor Serbian -- or, rather, it was both Bosnian and Serbian and

13     Croat.

14        Q.   And I assume that this practice was in place also in Sanski Most,

15     the practice of respect for each of the three constituent ethnicities or

16     nationalities; correct?

17        A.   Yes, up until a certain point.

18        Q.   What point?

19        A.   Well, let's say up until April 1992.  And I'm just speaking here

20     of Sanski Most.

21             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, I'm sure that this will

22     all become clear, but it's not clear to me at this stage that the

23     practice that Mr. Pantelic refers to and the witness seems to know what

24     he's talking about is clear to everyone else.  The practice of respect,

25     is that a -- is that a reference to an entrenched legal system whereby

Page 875

 1     respect is afforded to the other constituent peoples?  Am I correct in

 2     understanding the evidence in that fashion?  It's not clear to me, and I

 3     would like to know exactly with Mr. Pantelic means.

 4             MR. PANTELIC:  Gladly, yes.  I will clarify that with the

 5     witness.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] So it's indisputable that the principles of the

 7     protection of the vital interests of all the three constituent peoples in

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina were respected from the top of the pyramid to the

 9     base where the municipalities were, if I can put it that way; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And what you are saying now is that at a certain point, and this

13     is -- let's see what you've said.  April 1992.  In Sanski Most this

14     system of equality of all three peoples was not respected any more.  Is

15     that correct?  How did this look in practice in April in 1992?

16        A.   Well, I would like you to ask me how it was up until April, if

17     you wish.  I would prefer that.  From the -- since the elections up until

18     April.

19        Q.   Because we don't have much time, you agreed with me that up until

20     April in Sanski Most there was a kind of co-existence among the three

21     peoples; is that correct?

22        A.   Absolutely.

23        Q.   So this coalition was made up by the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ at

24     the level of Sanski Most; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 876

 1        Q.   And by inter-party agreements, you split up the posts according

 2     to party quotas?

 3        A.   No, not according to the quotas but according to the result of

 4     the elections from 1990.

 5        Q.   I understand.  But as of April 1992, according to you, why was

 6     this principle no longer respected?  Can you please explain that to the

 7     Trial Chamber briefly?

 8        A.   One of the peoples began to arrest, detain, and kill the two

 9     other peoples, meaning that the Serbs began to arrest, prosecute, kill

10     non-Serbs, or, namely, Muslims and Croats.  This was something that

11     started from April onwards.  It was a kind of introduction.  From the

12     3rd of April, I think, 1992, the Serbian Assembly was convened, which, as

13     an illegal organ, declared Sanski Most to be Serbian Sanski Most and that

14     Sanski Most was being joined to the Banja Luka region.

15        Q.   You would agree with me, dear colleague, that Republika Srpska is

16     a reality, isn't it?

17        A.   You mean now?

18        Q.   Yes, I mean now.

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.

20        Q.   And the entire constitutional system is protected by an

21     international contract or the Dayton Accords; isn't that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And did Muslims kill Serbs in the environs of Sanski Most in that

24     period of April/May 1992?  Were there such cases?

25        A.   What exactly do you mean?

Page 877

 1        Q.   Did Muslims kill Serbs?  Because you said that Serbs were killing

 2     Muslims and Croats.  So I'm putting a simple question to you.  Now, a

 3     very simple question --

 4        A.   No, they did not.  No, they did not.

 5        Q.   Did Croats kill Serbs in the area of Sanski Most?

 6        A.   No, they did not.  We're talking about Sanski Most area now.

 7        Q.   In 1992, did Muslims kill Serbs in the Sanski Most region?

 8        A.   No, they did not.

 9        Q.   Did Croats kill Serbs in the Sanski Most area in the course of

10     1992?

11        A.   No, they did not.

12        Q.   Let us now go back to a different topic, and that is, Are you

13     aware of the fact that the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina was

14     formed -- formed after the multi-party elections sometime in late 1991,

15     voted a declaration on the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Are

16     you aware of that fact?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Who voted for this declaration?

19        A.   The deputies.

20        Q.   And which ethnicity were those deputies?

21        A.   Well, I wasn't counting.  The deputies voted and adopted that

22     decision.

23        Q.   If I were to tell you that while voting for the declaration on

24     the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serb deputies left the

25     session because this was a violation of their vital right as a

Page 878

 1     constituent people, and if I were to tell you that Muslim and Croat

 2     deputies voted on that declaration, would you agree with me?

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4        Q.   All right.  Tell me this:  You are a lawyer after all, and you

 5     have certain information or knowledge about the constitutional system of

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 7             If Serbs were to walk out and had not taken part in this voting,

 8     would, according to you, the vote conducted by the Croats and the Muslims

 9     be something that constituted the violation of the rights of Serbs as a

10     constituent people of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   Still, if I were to tell you, because I did study these matters

13     quite a lot, that the vital interests of Serbs were really, truly

14     violated, would you not confirm that assertion?

15        A.   That is what you state.

16        Q.   Yes, I do state that.  So please, could you change your position?

17     Would you agree to change your position if I were to tell you that on the

18     basis of these principles there was a violation of the vital interests of

19     the Serbian people?

20        A.   Well, you are trying to make me go the way you want.  I don't

21     know.  This is your interpretation.  It's not my interpretation.  Still,

22     I am giving you the answer that I don't know.  Because there were loyal

23     Serbs and deputies in Sarajevo, too, who voted for that declaration and

24     passed it, and I'm still giving you the answer that I don't know.  Don't

25     force me to give you answers.

Page 879

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, perhaps this is a convenient point for

 2     you to break and decide how best to utilise your remaining 15 minutes.

 3             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll do my best.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  I must say to the witness that your

 5     cross-examination has not yet been completed, and therefore you must

 6     return tomorrow.  Now, because you are sworn as a witness in this matter,

 7     you can't speak to the attorneys from either side, nor can you discuss

 8     your testimony with anybody else.  So any conversation you have with

 9     persons other than the attorneys cannot relate to the testimony that you

10     have given here.

11             And I remind counsel and the parties that when we resume at 2.15

12     testimony it will be in Courtroom II.  So we take the adjournment to 2.15

13     tomorrow afternoon.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day

16                           of October, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.